Doing business in China

[Manny]

'Sure' and in the meantime I have sent thousands of USD to China in the last 10 days - via Paypal

Reality v wet dreams

No serious Chinese company would use PayPal.

Why on earth would any Chinese company want to turn over 3% plus of every transaction value to an American company? And then be subject to spurious chargebacks and foreign rules?

I once mentioned PayPal a couple of years ago in a general conversation with a few people here in China and was met with hoots of laughter.

You must be dealing quite small time - Ali Express and the like - if PayPal is a factor in any transaction with China.

[msmoby]

))

I am sorry that (once again) your vision of 'reality' doesn't match mine.

I had quotes from seven electronics firms in Shenzhen and ALL accept PayPal.

I order PCBs and electronic components we designed and have made over there..first to prototype stage.. then full production.

What is 'not serious' about ordering in quantities of 100’s and thousands?

I use the 'Ali's' to buy bikinis and lingerie in tens ..NOT for electronics.

You are not the only person doing trade in the far East ( incl  China )

You are pushing an agenda that does not reflect reality in my spheres of business.

One can only wonder why?

 


 

[Manny]

I had quotes from seven electronics firms in Shenzhen and ALL accept PayPal.

If that were true, they will have loaded your price with the cost of doing business through that platform. And they should’ve added a bit for insurance against dishonest chargebacks and another nonsense which is quite likely. More likely with you I expect because you love an argument. In fact I’d suggest that is why you would prefer using such a platform to pay - so you can do chargebacks when something doesn’t suit.

Everyone else does a bank transfer like a normal person. If you feel the need to use a platform like that it means you cannot trust your suppliers. You are using it as a poor mans escrow.

As I said, based on my experience, I’d be very surprised to find anybody that even took it. There will be no motivation at all for them to accept such a payment method. Why would a seller expose themselves to potential fraud and transaction charges like that willingly?

As it goes, I have a meeting tomorrow morning with a man from an electronics company in Shenzhen. I considered asking him to disprove your theory, but if I did so it would make me appear as a mistrustful amateur and do me no good. So I’ll not.

[Guile]

'Sure' and in the meantime I have sent thousands of USD to China in the last 10 days - via Paypal

Reality v wet dreams

No serious Chinese company would use PayPal.

Why on earth would any Chinese company want to turn over 3% plus of every transaction value to an American company? And then be subject to spurious chargebacks and foreign rules?

I once mentioned PayPal a couple of years ago in a general conversation with a few people here in China and was met with hoots of laughter.

You must be dealing quite small time - Ali Express and the like - if PayPal is a factor in any transaction with China.

hahaha Moby...you have no clue what the online payment market is like in China. Alipay and Tenpay (Wechat, QQ) are the 2 main players covering 95% of the market.

Check out the pie chart for a breakdown: http://www.iresearchchina.com/content/details7_54345.html

They probably add on the 3% fee for you as a foreigner gwei lo..haha...you got swindled and you didn't even know it. 

[Guile]

which begs the question of why Moby is even sending money to China.  what is he buying?  Wire transfers are way more secure.

Learn local business customs.  The Chinese are laughing taking your money while giving you a polite smile on the outside.  "Guan xi guan xi"

[Guile]

Manny take some photos of Shenzhen if you can. They say it's like the Silicon valley of China now.  Been a long while since I was there.

[Manny]

Manny take some photos of Shenzhen if you can. They say it's like the Silicon valley of China now.  Been a long while since I was there.

The dude is actually taking the fast train down to Dongguan to meet me. That way I get the initial face I reckon.

Moby is correct that PayPal exists in China because if you go to logon you get diverted to the local page.



Foreigners arent able to use WeChat pay because you need a Chinese bankcard to use it. We can use Alipay though. Many Chinese firms want bank payment directly to Hong Kong or Singapore in any event. I maintain the prospect of PayPal in business here is a joke.

[msmoby]

I had quotes from seven electronics firms in Shenzhen and ALL accept PayPal.

If that were true, they will have loaded your price with the cost of doing business through that platform. And they should’ve added a bit for insurance against dishonest chargebacks and another nonsense which is quite likely. More likely with you I expect because you love an argument. In fact I’d suggest that is why you would prefer using such a platform to pay - so you can do chargebacks when something doesn’t suit.

Everyone else does a bank transfer like a normal person. If you feel the need to use a platform like that it means you cannot trust your suppliers. You are using it as a poor mans escrow.

As I said, based on my experience, I’d be very surprised to find anybody that even took it. There will be no motivation at all for them to accept such a payment method. Why would a seller expose themselves to potential fraud and transaction charges like that willingly?

As it goes, I have a meeting tomorrow morning with a man from an electronics company in Shenzhen. I considered asking him to disprove your theory, but if I did so it would make me appear as a mistrustful amateur and do me no good. So I’ll not.

Manny,

As normal, you should quit when behind ..Fibbing about invoices I've just paid would be pointless... but then it makes my point easy to prove:)

Amateur is arguing with some who is currently wearing the t-shirt

When I pay via PayPal the Chinese firms are upfront and add the percentage they might lose as a separate charge.

[Manny]

As I said up upthread, you are buying very small quantities of items and the Chinese are writing the PayPal cost onto your invoice. I predicted both of those things.

As I said, proper business is not conducted with PayPal in China. Small transactions for small quantities of goods could be. I referenced Ali Express type transactions (ie, modest).

You could’ve just said, “Yes Manny, you are correct, it is a small number of items for a modest amount of money“.

One question: The first product line is coming out at just around 10 quid each for an assembled PCB? Considering the modest quantity I’m assuming these are very small and simple PCB with just two or three components on the board at that?

My next question is why would you choose to use PayPal and pay a silly fee when you could use bank transfer for much less? They have nailed you fifty quid to use your PayPal, why would you choose that?

[msmoby]

Manny,

Please pay attention..!

I ordered from 4 different Chinese companies and posted the smallest paypal invoice just KNOWING you would post daft..  I ordered via credit card and PayPal in the 10s of thousands of USD


Some of these firms are receiving my biz for the first time ... two of them, I have grown with them  over a year - they very only prototype PCB and component suppliers and now they JUST started doing SMT ( Surface mount Technology )


I am lucky to have the support of a Mandarin and Cantonese speaking wife of a guy from the sailing club and her advice has been invaluable.

Lastly, as I get paid via PayPal - it makes sense to use the money there.

You have learnt that PayPal do work in China and if you want to learn more about doing biz in China or opening / running a HK firm - just ask 

[Manny]

Moby, all I have “learned” is you are transacting in a foolish way in China by paying very high unnecessary costs, enriching an American corporation and needlessly transacting in a currency which is neither yours nor the recipients for reasons that you wont articulate upon.

I doubt you’ll be teaching me very much on the subject.

[msmoby]

The first product line is coming out at just around 10 quid each for an assembled PCB? Considering the modest quantity I’m assuming these are very small and simple PCB with just two or three components on the board at that?

The quotation posted was negotiated down from 1600 USD to under 1300 USD and the sensors include a form of low-energy wireless module - which costs 5 USD alone - they broadcast every 12 secs and seven of them ran for THREE weeks off a single Vape battery

Luckily, I have a Russian partner than can design PCBs and create Gerber files and dxf files to allow end to end design to fitting in our enclosures ..  We don't pay for the design costs - which is a big saving - while you 'worry' about PayPal / Credit card charges.

We often order kit  ( 3D printers, etc) to Russia via 'Mir / UnionPay for prototyping

[msmoby]

Your learnt that your 'claim' that dedollarisation'  was at work is your wishful thinking

When you think of the costs of your flights, hotels and other expenses v my miniscule 'banking fees' giving a strong sense of security - you'll forgive the guffaws ..

I have no need to keep taking 'business trips' when modern B2B tech renders them unnecessary.

PS  I met most of my Chinese suppliers at a Russia 'expo'

[msmoby]

which begs the question of why Moby is even sending money to China.  what is he buying? 

All you need to know is I DO biz with China in USD and in PayPal and the price is fine and - so far - the quality.

Wire transfers are way more secure.

??

Wire transfers save money - may be 3%  - but if you want 'secure' paying by credit card / PayPal offers extra protection

Learn local business customs.  The Chinese are laughing taking your money while giving you a polite smile on the outside.  "Guan xi guan xi"

*I* am interested in my product being made well at a fair price ..  I am protected by 'my' Anna ( speaks both Cantonese and Mandarin)

She is professional and I am sure knows FAR more about 'local' customs' than you - given she goes to HK and China 'proper' 4-6 times a year ...  What was it you said , " I haven't been in a while' ... ?

For someone you have on 'ignore' - you sure do ask some nosey, questions and prove your ignorance as to actually doing biz - rather than talking bollox, as normal !

[msmoby]

The first product line is coming out at just around 10 quid each for an assembled PCB? Considering the modest quantity I’m assuming these are very small and simple PCB with just two or three components on the board at that?

For some strange reason my response to the above  never appeared :

Just in case it got lost..

50 percent of the cost is a low energy wireless module on every sensor

If you've become an expert in using Enhanced ShockBurst - removing the need to pay the Bluetooth consortium $3000 / year ..welcome

[Texan77]

Doing business in China may soon change because of digital currency. The rest of the world may have to go to digital currencies to complete.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/why-chinas-digital-currency-is-a-wake-up-call-for-the-us/ar-AAJIcGi?li=BBnb4R7

[msmoby]

Hmm,

Me client ... I choose how to pay .. those who accept how *I* want to pay - get business...

[Manny]

Hmm,

Me client ... I choose how to pay .. those who accept how *I* want to pay - get business...

I’m with you on that.

I mostly choose to pay in any currency other than the dollar because my personal beliefs do not support using it outside the states for reasons outlined here previously. And because I am a fervid supporter of de-dollarisation, and we have to do our bit.

Some companies are more stuck in the dollar rut than others. Mostly by habit rather than necessity. If you are going to accept a foreign currency it doesn’t really matter which one it is as long as it is easily converted and relatively stable. For that reason I have used Pounds, Hong Kong Dollars, RMB, Roubles and Euros instead of US Dollars where possible.

As to your snide and incorrect comments on business trips, I’ll educate you, grasshopper: I agree that one can transact with suppliers in China to some degree over distance without meeting them, I have done the same. But if you ever get to the stage of doing some decent business, poncing about on Skype and messing around with PayPal will not cut it.

I rather like having a little jolly to China once or twice a year. I like meeting people face-to-face. That goes a long way to boost ones Guanxi in China too, as I’m sure Guile will confirm. This method of building relationships means that I don’t need to use platforms like PayPal as a poor mans escrow and/or safety blanket. Because I know the people that I transact with, because I’ve sat down and had dinner with them and taken the time to build friendships and relationships. That doesn’t really matter if your spend is $1000. If you’re spending 30 or 40 grand a pop, you want to know the people and see their set up before you send that kind of money. I do anyway....

This visit to China has afforded me a side visit to Beijing, then North Korea (and a couple of days in Hong Kong to order some shirts on the way home), if I hadn’t had a reason to come in this direction anyway, and hadn’t had a Chinese multi entry visa already, I probably wouldn’t have gone to North Korea is a standalone visit. Next time I’ll do South Korea, Singapore or Japan as a side visit.

You are using a pals wife as a helper. Over the five years or so I’ve been coming here I’ve built up a little network of local helpers. They all started off as paid help, most have since become friends, and the occasional local assistance I need nowadays seldom costs me any more than a dinner as a gesture. The exception being my driver, he gets paid standard rates.

A ‘business trip’ doesn’t always mean some poor sap in a cheap suit bored to tears at the local business man’s hotel. I’m in a rather pleasant golf resort hotel with multiple pools and peacocks everywhere. I’ve just quaffed a bottle of nice Italian vino and an Australian wagyu. Tomorrow I’m meeting a few pals and giving one of them a rather nice bottle of Russian cognac Wifey brought back for him. Next week I’ll be getting measured for some new shirts in Hong Kong.

If you’d rather sit bashing a keyboard telling yourself business trips are unnecessary than doing all that, then that is up to you. I was stood in Tiananmen Square a week or so ago. A few days later I was having dinner on a yacht on the Dandong river overlooking the Juche Tower in Pyongyang.

Oh, you know the best bit? It is tax deductible. You’d know that if you paid any.

[Guile]

))

I use the 'Ali's' to buy bikinis and lingerie in tens ..NOT for electronics.

Had to put moby on unignore to see what nonsense he wrote this time    You can ONLY use Alipay if you have a Chinese bank account.  So which bank do you use? 

My guess is you just got caught in another lie. Cause if you had an account you wouldn't need to Paypal your money to China.

[Guile]

I ordered from 4 different Chinese companies and posted the smallest paypal invoice just KNOWING you would post daft..  I ordered via credit card and PayPal in the 10s of thousands of USD

This doesn't match up with you haggling over 5 pounds for gas with so called "friends" on roadtrips.  Willing to pay 10's of thousands but won't even pay 100 quid to support the forum or making bets of 50 quid on Brexit?    Who's money are you using.

[Guile]

All you need to know is I DO biz with China in USD and in PayPal and the price is fine and - so far - the quality.


Wire transfers save money - may be 3%  - but if you want 'secure' paying by credit card / PayPal offers extra protection


*I* am interested in my product being made well at a fair price ..  I am protected by 'my' Anna ( speaks both Cantonese and Mandarin)

She is professional and I am sure knows FAR more about 'local' customs' than you - given she goes to HK and China 'proper' 4-6 times a year ...  What was it you said , " I haven't been in a while' ... ?

For someone you have on 'ignore' - you sure do ask some nosey, questions and prove your ignorance as to actually doing biz - rather than talking bollox, as normal !

Must be those $10 bikinis that you're buying in bulk. 

When you are talking about China I had to see what utter rubbish you are writing.   Your "Anna"...you really have no concept of 面子 (giving face).  She could be ripping you off royally under your nosey nose while offering you $2 tea.

Paypal offers extra protection compared to wire transfers?  that weed must be real strong. 

And when was the last time you set foot in HK or China?  You want to save money on flights and hotels like a moocher

[Guile]

It's quite obvious the stark difference on how Moby and Manny do business in China.  One is just looking for the cheapest rates and prices, the other actually takes the time to visit, meet face to face and develop relationships.

Now if you were a Chinese businessman who would you prefer to deal with?

[Guile]

She is professional and I am sure knows FAR more about 'local' customs' than you - given she goes to HK and China 'proper' 4-6 times a year ...  What was it you said , " I haven't been in a while' ... ?

Like how you are Irish but know more about Brexit than British people?! 

When's the last time you visited a Chinese buffet in London's Chinatown.  Maybe you'll pick up some tips on how to use chopsticks 

[Guile]

Have you even met this "Anna" person or is she another one of your fictional "friends"? 

[Guile]

There is Chinese diaspora all over the world.  So much so that locals are learning Mandarin and Cantonese to do business with them as the new immigrants tend to be wealthy.

moby my Russian is better than yours and I spent less time there than you. Start learning Chinese instead of relying on others like you always do.  Here's lesson #1:

"你可以给我打折吗?"  Ni keyi gei wo da zhe ma?  Can you give me a discount?