Stirlitz, Crimea, Ukraine and Yanukovych

[NS1]

We are far removed from matters regarding Stirlitz.

But anyways the first woman I dated from Russia her family owned a small hotel and some other rental properties on the Krym. They lost all of it when the Krym 'joined' Russia. Notwithstanding they were Russian. As well as Orthodox (Christian's) and Tartars.

So much for the rule of law in Putin's Russia.

Ah right, and you knew what went wrong and therefore its a Lawless country and Russias fault.

NS1 had a similar story and that amounted to 'forgetting' to register your properties with Russia after it joined Crimea.

You should not presume, what you don't know.

[Contrarian]

So I am checking in to welcome Stirlitz back.

I saw him in Odessa when he was working as border guard at the airport.  I had already passed security and was in the business lounge.  As he can (or could at that time) go wherever he wished at the airport, he came to see me.

So we greeted each other as friends, and after the other patrons in the business lounge looked at me, quizzically, clearly thinking, "Who is this guy that border guards, who always look so stern and NEVER smile, are so friendly with?"

 

B/B

Bond, Boston Bond. 

[Contrarian]

We are far removed from matters regarding Stirlitz.

But anyways the first woman I dated from Russia her family owned a small hotel and some other rental properties on the Krym. They lost all of it when the Krym 'joined' Russia. Notwithstanding they were Russian. As well as Orthodox (Christian's) and Tartars.

So much for the rule of law in Putin's Russia.

Ah right, and you knew what went wrong and therefore its a Lawless country and Russias fault.

NS1 had a similar story and that amounted to 'forgetting' to register your properties with Russia after it joined Crimea.

Russia is the ultimate lawful country.

Well connected carpetbaggers are rewarded lawfully. 

[BillyB]

I am sorry, I thought Impeachment was the proper american-english word to describe all the legal removal of presidents from power. If there is another more common word to cover all legal cases, please educate this non-native english writer. Still stands complete with the correct articles in the Ukrainian constitution that those are the only legal ways to remove a president from power.

Your English is good enough to understand there are more reasons than impeachment to terminate the Ukrainian president's job before the term is up. Read Article 108 again and if you can't comprehend it, then there is not much more I can do to help.

Now no Constitution covers everything by getting specific. Let's say aliens abduct a president, do sexual experimentations on him, inject him with drugs and he becomes a vegetable. Basically the president is incapacitated. If a president leaves the country forever, he is also incapacitated - unable to act, respond, or the like. The people of a nation deserves to have laws passed and a functioning government. Life goes on with or without that president. You may not like it but that is the way it is. If a Constitution doesn't cover all bases, which they never do, parliament, people's representatives, can step up and make decisions.

The logistics didn't matter. If you turned up with a Passport of Ukraine issued in said 3 oblasts you were denied the vote. Thats what I meant with "not allowed to vote". (Personal experience also, from my Crimean inlaws whom did try to vote but werent allowed to. Source: Myself.).

Your one experiences with your inlaws doesn't mean that is the experience with everybody in those oblasts. The OSCE and UN said some, but not all were able to vote due to the threat of death to the voters.

https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/119078?download=true

https://www.un.org/press/en/2014/sc11417.doc.htm

He is guilty of a crime then? that hasn't been determined yet.

A high Ukrainian court sentenced Yanukovych to 13 years in prison for high treason. After Yanu fled to Russia, he wrote a letter to Putin inviting Russian troops and police into Ukraine to restore order. Of course we know the rest of the story and know that Yana wanted Russia to restore him as Supreme leader of Ukraine. Yanu should remember the oath he took to become president promising to protect Ukraine's independence and sovereignty.

[AvHdB]

We are far removed from matters regarding Stirlitz.

But anyways the first woman I dated from Russia her family owned a small hotel and some other rental properties on the Krym. They lost all of it when the Krym 'joined' Russia. Notwithstanding they were Russian. As well as Orthodox (Christian's) and Tartars.

So much for the rule of law in Putin's Russia.

Ah right, and you knew what went wrong and therefore its a Lawless country and Russias fault.

NS1 had a similar story and that amounted to 'forgetting' to register your properties with Russia after it joined Crimea.

Russia is the ultimate lawful country.

Well connected carpetbaggers are rewarded lawfully. 

Since the family were builders going back to the Soviet period I believe they understood the ins and outs of the system. Further the uncle was present on the Krym before, during the Anschluss and after when the holdings were stripped from the family. I doubt it had little to do with paper work that was not filed correctly.

[Markje]

Your English is good enough to understand there are more reasons than impeachment to terminate the Ukrainian president's job before the term is up. Read Article 108 again and if you can't comprehend it, then there is not much more I can do to help.

Now no Constitution covers everything by getting specific. Let's say aliens abduct a president, do sexual experimentations on him, inject him with drugs and he becomes a vegetable. Basically the president is incapacitated. If a president leaves the country forever, he is also incapacitated - unable to act, respond, or the like. The people of a nation deserves to have laws passed and a functioning government. Life goes on with or without that president. You may not like it but that is the way it is. If a Constitution doesn't cover all bases, which they never do, parliament, people's representatives, can step up and make decisions.

Thats why having a finite list is such a bad idea, but that doesn't make your statement true at the time of 2013/2014 though. Since then, this has been fixed.

Your one experiences with your inlaws doesn't mean that is the experience with everybody in those oblasts. The OSCE and UN said some, but not all were able to vote due to the threat of death to the voters.

https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/119078?download=true

https://www.un.org/press/en/2014/sc11417.doc.htm

Some in my book means less then half, otherwise you would say "half" or "most" but not "some". In the grand scheme of things, this means I am correct and you were not allowed to vote. BTW, there was no fear of death from Crimea->Mainland ukraine, yet you still could not vote.

He is guilty of a crime then? that hasn't been determined yet.

A high Ukrainian court sentenced Yanukovych to 13 years in prison for high treason. After Yanu fled to Russia, he wrote a letter to Putin inviting Russian troops and police into Ukraine to restore order. Of course we know the rest of the story and know that Yana wanted Russia to restore him as Supreme leader of Ukraine. Yanu should remember the oath he took to become president promising to protect Ukraine's independence and sovereignty.

Pulling a moby on me? Moving the goalposts here. We were talking about crimes which could lead to his legal removal from the presidency, not things committed later.

[BillyB]

Thats why having a finite list is such a bad idea, but that doesn't make your statement true at the time of 2013/2014 though. Since then, this has been fixed.

If you think the Constitution I linked wasn't valid in 2013/2014, show me one that was valid.

Some in my book means less then half, otherwise you would say "half" or "most" but not "some". In the grand scheme of things, this means I am correct and you were not allowed to vote. BTW, there was no fear of death from Crimea->Mainland ukraine, yet you still could not vote.

A whole nation isn't going to stop functioning because a few people can't vote.

Pulling a moby on me? Moving the goalposts here. We were talking about crimes which could lead to his legal removal from the presidency, not things committed later.

Yanukovych committed the crime inviting Russian troops and police into Ukraine days after he fled Ukraine. Why are we still talking crimes that can be used for impeachment? The Rada didn't remove Yanukovych with impeachment. They removed Yanukovych with early elections that Yanukovych signed onto the day before he fled Ukraine.

https://www.theverge.com/2014/2/21/5433322/ukraine-president-opposition-sign-pact-for-reform

[Markje]

i think yanukovich signed early elections back in nov. 2013 before maidan got out of control. i will check the news from that time

[Contrarian]

We are far removed from matters regarding Stirlitz.

But anyways the first woman I dated from Russia her family owned a small hotel and some other rental properties on the Krym. They lost all of it when the Krym 'joined' Russia. Notwithstanding they were Russian. As well as Orthodox (Christian's) and Tartars.

So much for the rule of law in Putin's Russia.

Ah right, and you knew what went wrong and therefore its a Lawless country and Russias fault.

NS1 had a similar story and that amounted to 'forgetting' to register your properties with Russia after it joined Crimea.

Russia is the ultimate lawful country.

Well connected carpetbaggers are rewarded lawfully. 

Since the family were builders going back to the Soviet period I believe they understood the ins and outs of the system. Further the uncle was present on the Krym before, during the Anschluss and after when the holdings were stripped from the family. I doubt it had little to do with paper work that was not filed correctly.

Whose family are you referring to? Are you writing on behalf of NS1?

Perhaps we should wait and let NS1 write for himself.

Up thread Stirlitz also lost some property, I’m sure Mark has a good excuse for that as well.

[Markje]

Up thread Stirlitz also lost some property, I’m sure Mark has a good excuse for that as well.

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties. You can mock me all you what meanwhile but it doesn't change that new ownership of crimea means new rules and new administration. Failure to register said properties is a sure-fire way to loose them.

[msmoby]

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties. You can mock me all you what meanwhile but it doesn't change that new ownership of crimea means new rules and new administration. Failure to register said properties is a sure-fire way to loose them.

I am nearly 100  perent certain that that 'new govt' of Crimea told everyone that Ikrainian owndership docs would suffice as proof of ownership and that Markje posted to that effect...

[Manny]

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties.

Indeed, and since his return, he hasn't been awfully communicative on the topic here............

[Contrarian]

Up thread Stirlitz also lost some property, I’m sure Mark has a good excuse for that as well.

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties. You can mock me all you what meanwhile but it doesn't change that new ownership of crimea means new rules and new administration. Failure to register said properties is a sure-fire way to loose them.

Save your blood-stained lies and propaganda for someone gullible enough to believe them or for your handlers back in Crimea.

The only “laws” that matter for Mr. Putin and cronies is who they believe should be rewarded for towing the party line.

Meanwhile 10,000 people and counting have lost their lives in Donbas and nearly 2 Million displaced persons due to the immoral Russian invasion of their neighbor.

[Markje]

Up thread Stirlitz also lost some property, I’m sure Mark has a good excuse for that as well.

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties. You can mock me all you what meanwhile but it doesn't change that new ownership of crimea means new rules and new administration. Failure to register said properties is a sure-fire way to loose them.

Save your blood-stained lies and propaganda for someone gullible enough to believe them or for your handlers back in Crimea.

The only “laws” that matter for Mr. Putin and cronies is who they believe should be rewarded for towing the party line.

Meanwhile 10,000 people and counting have lost their lives in Donbas and nearly 2 Million displaced persons due to the immoral Russian invasion of their neighbor.

Yes, strange that, that the brunt of those 2 million chose to flee to Russia.

As to my so-called Handlers in Crimea  you sure are funny.

Point in fact: None of my in-laws or people I am connected with in Crimea lost their properties, including a cripple who owns a very nice plot of land right at the black-sea in the middle of Evpatoria.

Now I am sure that the 20-30 oddball people in Crimea can't speak for the masses, but for me it shows that honest & willing administration was possible for many.

[Markje]

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties. You can mock me all you what meanwhile but it doesn't change that new ownership of crimea means new rules and new administration. Failure to register said properties is a sure-fire way to loose them.

I am nearly 100  perent certain that that 'new govt' of Crimea told everyone that Ikrainian owndership docs would suffice as proof of ownership and that Markje posted to that effect...

Yes, I believed so too, as we were discussing some other claim of land lost.....

I thought that was NS1, but I could have been misstaken as he was rather prickly about that

[andrewfi]

I recall that, at the time, there were quite a few people who had property that they had never registered because they didn't actually have any right to it.

Under the previous regime that seemed to not be an issue for the authorities but the new government wanted to end the 'informal' property arrangements. Of course, it is easily understandable that people who had built homes or businesses on land to which they had no ownership rights were rather miffed when they found they could not rectify matters and that they'd blame anyone other than themselves for their self-inflicted predicament - this is normal human stuff.

Similar stuff used to happen in Spain and, quite often the current owners were, themselves, victims of people they'd bought real estate from. Of course, one can reasonably ask why the buyers did not check the legal situation at the time of purchase. In my opinion, these 'innocent victims' were complicit by dint of their choice to not look too closely at the gift horse they took possession of.

[msmoby]

Andrewfi

When were you last on the peninsula?

Where do you get your 'info'?

[Contrarian]

Andrew proving yet again that he’s never been to Ukraine, nor is he truly knowledgeable about Crimea.

I’ll take the word of a native Crimean over puffers Andy and Mark.

quote:
“Locals largely focus on different complaints. They invariably denigrate the new bureaucrats as carpetbaggers, using the word “varyagi” in Russian, an old word for Viking outsiders, especially when it comes to land confiscation.

The city of Sevastopol claims that it must repossess at least 10,000 plots to help create a rational development plan. The owners howl that the “mass land grab” will benefit crooked developers and senior officials who covet what when stitched together amounts to sprawling tracts of choice seaside property.

“Nobody thought it would be as bad, with issues emerging suddenly like the land plots,” said Roman Kiyashko, the burly Communist Party candidate for governor whose campaign slogan, “Your man from Sevastopol,” emphasized his native roots. “Russian officials act like an elephant in a china shop. They just implement their policies with no feedback.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world/europe/crimea-annexation-russia-ukraine.amp.html

[Markje]

Andrew proving yet again that he’s never been to Ukraine, nor is he truly knowledgeable about Crimea.

I’ll take the word of a native Crimean over puffers Andy and Mark.

quote:
“Locals largely focus on different complaints. They invariably denigrate the new bureaucrats as carpetbaggers, using the word “varyagi” in Russian, an old word for Viking outsiders, especially when it comes to land confiscation.

The city of Sevastopol claims that it must repossess at least 10,000 plots to help create a rational development plan. The owners howl that the “mass land grab” will benefit crooked developers and senior officials who covet what when stitched together amounts to sprawling tracts of choice seaside property.

“Nobody thought it would be as bad, with issues emerging suddenly like the land plots,” said Roman Kiyashko, the burly Communist Party candidate for governor whose campaign slogan, “Your man from Sevastopol,” emphasized his native roots. “Russian officials act like an elephant in a china shop. They just implement their policies with no feedback.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world/europe/crimea-annexation-russia-ukraine.amp.html

you do realise that i speak native crimeans weekly and my wife daily.

an article in pro western newspapers is just not believable.

i am in crimea july this year. boots in the mud etc.

[Contrarian]

Andrew proving yet again that he’s never been to Ukraine, nor is he truly knowledgeable about Crimea.

I’ll take the word of a native Crimean over puffers Andy and Mark.

quote:
“Locals largely focus on different complaints. They invariably denigrate the new bureaucrats as carpetbaggers, using the word “varyagi” in Russian, an old word for Viking outsiders, especially when it comes to land confiscation.

The city of Sevastopol claims that it must repossess at least 10,000 plots to help create a rational development plan. The owners howl that the “mass land grab” will benefit crooked developers and senior officials who covet what when stitched together amounts to sprawling tracts of choice seaside property.

“Nobody thought it would be as bad, with issues emerging suddenly like the land plots,” said Roman Kiyashko, the burly Communist Party candidate for governor whose campaign slogan, “Your man from Sevastopol,” emphasized his native roots. “Russian officials act like an elephant in a china shop. They just implement their policies with no feedback.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world/europe/crimea-annexation-russia-ukraine.amp.html

you do realise that i speak native crimeans weekly and my wife daily.

an article in pro western newspapers is just not believable.

i am in crimea july this year. boots in the mud etc.

So says you, the puffer.

How many people in Crimea would like to speak out but don’t for fear of being labeled an “enemy of the state” and unlawfully detained for life?

Human rights abuses of activists, isolation, unlawful movement and detainment.

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1554002531

[andrewfi]

"detained for life"
Are you channeling moby these days?

Why are you just making stuff up?

You will never convince anyone by telling lies, it just doesn't work - whoops, sorry, I was wrong. You might convince people who know nothing and have no interest in knowing anything. Real people, nope, lies don't work on people who can think and learn. So, why do it here?

[Markje]

So says you, the puffer.

How many people in Crimea would like to speak out but don’t for fear of being labeled an “enemy of the state” and unlawfully detained for life?

Human rights abuses of activists, isolation, unlawful movement and detainment.

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1554002531

Nobody is fearing anything, if you had been to russia, you'd know that.
Crimea is a whole different case, all people there have been living in Heaven for 5 years now, so nobody there would like to speak against Russia.

Where Crimea was the worst-performing state of Ukraine (economicly speaking) and investments were none, this has all changed.
People feel it in their wallet every day, so you can bet your ass off that everybody is in good report with Russia.
Every year I go there, I keep being amazed at the sheer amount of Russia flags, putin baubles and other pro-russian stuff.
You just can't make that stuff with surpressing the local people.

Mark.

[msmoby]

Nobody is fearing anything, if you had been to russia, you'd know that.

I am sat with 4 of 'em and you are kidding yourself ....  I spend a LOT of time in the region that ajoins Crimea

A LOT of Russians question corruption from the top down....it is THE main issue in every Ivanov index survey of the Sberbank


Russian is seen by many as been run by an elite for the elite's benefit

Now you are being more than a mite disingenuous..

Crimea is a whole different case, all people there have been living in Heaven for 5 years now, so nobody there would like to speak against Russia.

'All'? 

I can name you people who lost their jobs, homes and had to pack up and live the peninsula for speaking out about injustice..

Where Crimea was the worst-performing state of Ukraine (economicly speaking) and investments were none, this has all changed.
People feel it in their wallet every day, so you can bet your ass off that everybody is in good report with Russia.
Every year I go there, I keep being amazed at the sheer amount of Russia flags, putin baubles and other pro-russian stuff.
You just can't make that stuff with surpressing the local people.

Mark.

Many businesses that closed have not reopened and despite your assurances, tourism is not anywhere near back to when Ukrainians flocked

Newsflash...many Russians do not trust Crimean's ..it has long had a reputation as being corrupt

Then there's the matter of Tatar land claims...that date back to Soviet times...

You are speaking on behalf of Eth. Russians..not the indigenous people or those that made their lives there while 60 years being undisputed part of Ukraine

[Contrarian]

"detained for life"
Are you channeling moby these days?

Why are you just making stuff up?

You will never convince anyone by telling lies, it just doesn't work - whoops, sorry, I was wrong. You might convince people who know nothing and have no interest in knowing anything. Real people, nope, lies don't work on people who can think and learn. So, why do it here?

Mirror, mirror on the wall...

[B.B.]

I have no idea what happened to Stirlitz's properties.

Indeed, and since his return, he hasn't been awfully communicative on the topic here............

Probably because this has become a "Oh, but Russia totes didn't invade Crimea" gaslighting thread?  Yes, more of the usual. 

B/B