Electric Cars

[Texan77]

This is a video of then assembly plant where Porshe-Taycan is assembly. First thing you notice is the plant is small compared to the tesla plant. They do not appear to be planning to build many cars.

https://www.motor1.com/news/374753/porshe-taycan-assembly-official-video/

When you study the two cars you notice the range of the Porshe is much less than the Tesla model S by about half. Most European car companies are limited by how many batteries they can buy and the quality of the batteries that is available to them. This is a huge advantage tesla has. The Porche weights consider more than the Tesla model S and travel less distance. This is likely because they are using batteries that do not have the weight to power ratio the Tesla car has. It looks like they have put as many batteries in the car as they could and still could not get the range.

[Markje]

Governor of California bans sales of all gas powered cars starting 2035. He wants to stop climate change.

https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/09/23/newsom-bans-new-gas-cars-and-begs-trump-for-a-fight-1317947

So people (especially those close to county-border) will simply hop over the county line, buy one and hop back.

This will only work if many states do it, or if its taken care of on a federal level.

And what about digital purchases on websites. Tesla and BMW allow you to order one from their website, and I doubt they are the only ones.

[Texan77]

This show the rate of projected increase of sales of electric cars and tesla.

[Texan77]

New rules for driving in the EU being considered.


For example, as government bureaucrats in Europe are monitoring your hybrid’s emissions, they might declare that the area where you’re driving has too much air pollution. This move would allow them to remotely force your vehicle to drive in electric-only mode, because as we know all electricity in European grids comes from the breeze and sun rays, not any kind of combustive process involving fossil fuels.

Now, before anyone says I’m positioning this as something which is definitely happening, I’m not. They’re just being tossed around for now. Completed proposals for Euro 7 rules are supposed to be submitted to European parliament at the end of this year, so there’s still plenty of time for them to dream up more totalitarian ways to ensure you don’t use your car in any way those in power deem as unacceptable. Most likely, all the new Euro 7 emissions standards will be put into effect in 2025, giving people plenty of time to move to China for greater personal freedom.

The whole article;  https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/eu-government-is-coming-for-your-cars/ar-BB1ehOA2?ocid=msedgntp

[Markje]

I read the entire article & clicked the links. They dont have anything to backup such a bold claim

[andrewfi]

I read the entire article & clicked the links. They dont have anything to backup such a bold claim

Mark, why do people keep doing this? Where is people's informed skepticism gone?

Surely any moderately rational and decently informed person would think it worthwhile to click the links and see if the rather odd claims were actually backed up by the linked content? Moby used to play this game because he knew that many people are dumb and that the dumb are often lazy. We have seen people playing the same trick here but without moby's dishonesty.

Gentlemen, if you see an extraordinary claim be skeptical. At least read the supporting evidence' before sharing twaddle with the world. It is people like you who amplify false news and make the entire human race seem more dumb than it really is.

[AvHdB]

Not entirely sure what my opinion is: insane, inane or is this the future.

Would I put a deposit down, NO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/solar-car/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=acq-nat&utm_campaign=eng-hubsearch&utm_content=hub-climatesoultions&utm_keyword=&campaignid=8202785432&adgroupid=111150677210&adid=504274061467&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7tae4rSu7wIVRP_jBx3BuQb0EAAYASAAEgL8F_D_BwE

https://www.aptera.us/

[NS1]

Not entirely sure what my opinion is: insane, inane or is this the future.

Would I put a deposit down, NO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/solar-car/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=acq-nat&utm_campaign=eng-hubsearch&utm_content=hub-climatesoultions&utm_keyword=&campaignid=8202785432&adgroupid=111150677210&adid=504274061467&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7tae4rSu7wIVRP_jBx3BuQb0EAAYASAAEgL8F_D_BwE

https://www.aptera.us/

Not now, not ever, I have not interest in these cars.
I have  no idea how fast electric cars will take over,
but odds are I am dead before I have to buy one

[2tallbill]

So people (especially those close to State-border) will simply hop over the
State line, buy one and hop back.

This will only work if many states do it, or if its taken care of on a federal level.

I changed your quote to say State instead of County in two spots. 

California tried to charge people extra if they bought a car from out
of state with different emission spec's with their licensing fees. They
were taken to court and lost. I received a check from them years later
from when they fleeced me.

Individual states can't regulate interstate commerce.

Lefty's rarely consider the economic consequences of their actions. They will
put a ton of businesses out of business. Gasoline stations can't be repurposed
for charging cars. Rural communities that produces food will be wiped out.
Hundreds of car dealers will be out of business as their business is driven
out of State.

Batteries are not an efficient method to store energy. Thousands of Powerplants
will have to be built. The entire state electrical grid will be woefully inadequate.
The lefty's won't allow electrical plants to be built so they will have to buy
electricity from other states that allow power production.

Giant parking lot charging stations will have to be built. The problem with
the left is that their solutions include economic suicide. Ask the Soviets
how their union is doing.

[Markje]

I have  no idea how fast electric cars will take over,
but odds are I am dead before I have to buy one

Meanwhile, Volvo, Audi and BMW all declared they will stop making new ICE-powered cars, they will go full electric.

They said its no longer feasible to build them with new environmental regulations, since the technical limits of what can be achieved have been reached.

(Volvo already sells full-electric vehicles under a luxury name 'polestar' )

[NS1]

This will be interesting to watch as people try figure out where
the trillions is going to come from to build the supply chain,
the grids and all required to supply folks with this much electric power.

Then when you do not have options, watch what happens to pricing.
Economically, oil producing countries will be in shock from the drop
in the GDP, Canada is a prime example of this.

The tree huggers do no research, just drive there car to the protest and
scream as loud as they can. RIch will get rich, switching back and forth lol.
they love idiots demanding unrealistic things and charge more to do it fast

[Markje]

The Dutch electricity net used to be supurb, no outtages except once in a blue moon and strict 220v 50hz without fluctuations.

Now however, I already had 2 (cheap) appliances die on me because of a spike in the voltage. I immediatly put spike-protections across all wall outlets with valued things like tv, cinema-set, computer, etc. Laptops won't need them since their psu already has it built in.

The electric net care company (Liander) said it was because not only was the net at 120% max-current, drawing in 20% even of reserve emergency power (they have 25%) putting it dangerously close to the max-output, the spikes are because the power usage is so not-uniform.

During the morning , everyone wakes up , power goes up alot, then during the day solar-panels drive down the demand to almost half that and when everyone gets home from work and plugin their EV, the net spikes again. This is known as the 'duck' curve because it resembles the silhouette of a duck.

The company said that more EV's on the net will only enhance the spike in the evening causing overloads and outtages unless the net is upgraded drasticly and no , solar/wind is not going to cut it. So now the NL is planning a new nuclear-plant and planning upgrades to all cross-country high voltage power lines.

Guess who is to pay for those upgrades.

This image is from california, each year measured on 31-march. Years are the lines and labeled. Its getting worse fast.

[Texan77]

The dip you are seeing during the middle of the day is caused by solar panels. This dip would not be so pronounce if it was a day of usage during July when AC was being used. Still California is requiring houses to have solar panels but not requiring batteries.  This is going to be a very big long term problem as it does nothing to reduce the electricity usage during the peak evening hours.  This is why solar electricity that people have on their homes sells for so little to the power company. If you have to use the grid during pear hours your solar panels does little to nothing to help the power company.

Power companies can change your rates depending on the time of the day here. It is likely one day not too many years from now the power will cost much less in off hours or should I say more during pear hours. There some power plans that already work this way. Likely in the near future it will much cheaper to charge you car in off hours than during peak hours which will help even out the load.

[Markje]

The dip you are seeing during the middle of the day is caused by solar panels. This dip would not be so pronounce if it was a day of usage during July when AC was being used. Still California is requiring houses to have solar panels but not requiring batteries.  This is going to be a very big long term problem as it does nothing to reduce the electricity usage during the peak evening hours.  This is why solar electricity that people have on their homes sells for so little to the power company. If you have to use the grid during pear hours your solar panels does little to nothing to help the power company.

Power companies can change your rates depending on the time of the day here. It is likely one day not too many years from now the power will cost much less in off hours or should I say more during pear hours. There some power plans that already work this way. Likely in the near future it will much cheaper to charge you car in off hours than during peak hours which will help even out the load.

The dip in the afternoon is only half the problem. The giant demand-rise after the dip is the other. You're talking more than doubling the demand in just 3 hours timespan. Since electricity can't be stored on a mass-scale, that means you either overproduce 200% and hope noone gets fried by the electricity that isn't being used but still wants to get out, or you risk outtages because you have to scale-up the output by 100% in that short timespan.

The Netherlands solved it by having a couple of huge batteries that last 30 minutes combined with 125% overproducing in the day. But that won't last when the curve steepens as more households get solar and EV-vehicles.

[Texan77]

A new electric car that will be able to charge form sun light and go up to 40 miles a day without charging. The longest range model will have 1000 range.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=aptera&docid=607999238395023471&mid=9A36F897C28556C8B9B89A36F897C28556C8B9B8&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

[2tallbill]

A new electric car that will be able to charge form sun light and go up to 40 miles a day without charging. The longest range model will have 1000 range.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=aptera&docid=607999238395023471&mid=9A36F897C28556C8B9B89A36F897C28556C8B9B8&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

That death trap would never get approved for US safety standards.
We have large trucks that transport food, milk and toothpaste across
the country. Those paper airplane cars shouldn't be allowed to drive
outside of a golf course.

[andrewfi]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

Let us be generous and assume that the solar panel on the car is equivalent in size to 2 domestic roof mounted panels. A typical roof panel giving the output I noted below will be about 5.48*3.2 feet. So two of them will cover 33 square feet. The Aptera does not seem to have that much surface area available to mount the cells.

Assume that you get 5 hours per day of direct sunlight at the optimal angle. That's unlikely as the Aptera has complex curved surfaces so that most of the panel surface will never be at an optimal angle to collect sunlight - but we're being generous. And, in most parts of the world 5 hours per day of direct sunlight is a rarity.

Of course there are efficiency losses so some of the power generated by the solar cells will be lost between the output of the panels and turning the wheels of the device.

So, being generous - that setup will give you a little less than 2900 watts of power per day from the solar cells. Aptera claims that their device can run 1 mile on 100 watts. That means you'd need to store and access 4000 watts from the sun. There's a deficit of 1000 watts or 10 miles right away. It will get worse when you want to cool down or get warmer, when you want to see at night, listen to music while driving or run the electronic control systems.

And yes, that's an expensive go-kart. Rather you than me driving it.

Never charge? No chance!

More mugs are being conned. I am surprised that some people have enough money to afford their Internet connection to post on forums, let alone think about buying into a con-job like this one.

[2tallbill]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

I didn't do the math but the argument made didn't pass the smell
test. The numbers claimed were too fantastic to be believed.
Thanks for putting pen to paper and crunching the numbers. 

[andrewfi]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

I didn't do the math but the argument made didn't pass the smell
test. The numbers claimed were too fantastic to be believed.
Thanks for putting pen to paper and crunching the numbers.

My pleasure, it saddens me that so many people have lost the 'sense of smell'. I am glad that you are still able to notice bad odours!

As Carl Sagan said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Whenever I see that an extraordinary claim is not matched with the requisite extraordinary evidence I know that the people with no sense of smell are about to walk into a cow pat.

[Texan77]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

Let us be generous and assume that the solar panel on the car is equivalent in size to 2 domestic roof mounted panels. A typical roof panel giving the output I noted below will be about 5.48*3.2 feet. So two of them will cover 33 square feet. The Aptera does not seem to have that much surface area available to mount the cells.

Assume that you get 5 hours per day of direct sunlight at the optimal angle. That's unlikely as the Aptera has complex curved surfaces so that most of the panel surface will never be at an optimal angle to collect sunlight - but we're being generous. And, in most parts of the world 5 hours per day of direct sunlight is a rarity.

Of course there are efficiency losses so some of the power generated by the solar cells will be lost between the output of the panels and turning the wheels of the device.

So, being generous - that setup will give you a little less than 2900 watts of power per day from the solar cells. Aptera claims that their device can run 1 mile on 100 watts. That means you'd need to store and access 4000 watts from the sun. There's a deficit of 1000 watts or 10 miles right away. It will get worse when you want to cool down or get warmer, when you want to see at night, listen to music while driving or run the electronic control systems.

And yes, that's an expensive go-kart. Rather you than me driving it.

Never charge? No chance!

More mugs are being conned. I am surprised that some people have enough money to afford their Internet connection to post on forums, let alone think about buying into a con-job like this one.

So what you are saying if they get 25 per cent more out of the solar panels than you are thinking it works.

WE have a lot of 50 somethings in this area who are driving three wheel motor cycles that look almost like this. Just because you will not drive it does not mean it will not sell.


Example of what is selling in the USA.

[Grumpy]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

Let us be generous and assume that the solar panel on the car is equivalent in size to 2 domestic roof mounted panels. A typical roof panel giving the output I noted below will be about 5.48*3.2 feet. So two of them will cover 33 square feet. The Aptera does not seem to have that much surface area available to mount the cells.

Assume that you get 5 hours per day of direct sunlight at the optimal angle. That's unlikely as the Aptera has complex curved surfaces so that most of the panel surface will never be at an optimal angle to collect sunlight - but we're being generous. And, in most parts of the world 5 hours per day of direct sunlight is a rarity.

Of course there are efficiency losses so some of the power generated by the solar cells will be lost between the output of the panels and turning the wheels of the device.

So, being generous - that setup will give you a little less than 2900 watts of power per day from the solar cells. Aptera claims that their device can run 1 mile on 100 watts. That means you'd need to store and access 4000 watts from the sun. There's a deficit of 1000 watts or 10 miles right away. It will get worse when you want to cool down or get warmer, when you want to see at night, listen to music while driving or run the electronic control systems.

And yes, that's an expensive go-kart. Rather you than me driving it.

Never charge? No chance!

More mugs are being conned. I am surprised that some people have enough money to afford their Internet connection to post on forums, let alone think about buying into a con-job like this one.

So what you are saying if they get 25 per cent more out of the solar panels than you are thinking it works.

WE have a lot of 50 somethings in this area who are driving three wheel motor cycles that look almost like this. Just because you will not drive it does not mean it will not sell.


Example of what is selling in the USA.

They forgot to mention the best 3wheeler, the Russian built Ural. They have only been around since WW2.
https://www.imz-ural.com/

[AvHdB]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

Let us be generous and assume that the solar panel on the car is equivalent in size to 2 domestic roof mounted panels. A typical roof panel giving the output I noted below will be about 5.48*3.2 feet. So two of them will cover 33 square feet. The Aptera does not seem to have that much surface area available to mount the cells.

Assume that you get 5 hours per day of direct sunlight at the optimal angle. That's unlikely as the Aptera has complex curved surfaces so that most of the panel surface will never be at an optimal angle to collect sunlight - but we're being generous. And, in most parts of the world 5 hours per day of direct sunlight is a rarity.

Of course there are efficiency losses so some of the power generated by the solar cells will be lost between the output of the panels and turning the wheels of the device.

So, being generous - that setup will give you a little less than 2900 watts of power per day from the solar cells. Aptera claims that their device can run 1 mile on 100 watts. That means you'd need to store and access 4000 watts from the sun. There's a deficit of 1000 watts or 10 miles right away. It will get worse when you want to cool down or get warmer, when you want to see at night, listen to music while driving or run the electronic control systems.

And yes, that's an expensive go-kart. Rather you than me driving it.

Never charge? No chance!

More mugs are being conned. I am surprised that some people have enough money to afford their Internet connection to post on forums, let alone think about buying into a con-job like this one.

So what you are saying if they get 25 per cent more out of the solar panels than you are thinking it works.

WE have a lot of 50 somethings in this area who are driving three wheel motor cycles that look almost like this. Just because you will not drive it does not mean it will not sell.


Example of what is selling in the USA.

They forgot to mention the best 3wheeler, the Russian built Ural. They have only been around since WW2.
https://www.imz-ural.com/

The Ural looks a bit like the Morgan three wheel vehicles. While I noted the Aptera back in March, I think that vehicle is inane, except maybe in Australia.

Without doubt the finest three wheel vehicle produced award goes to the UK, for the Reliant Robin. In some circles called the Plastic Pig.

The attention as I recall of more than one episode of Top Gear.

[Contrarian]

I just took a look. Maths does not work.

Let us be generous and assume that the solar panel on the car is equivalent in size to 2 domestic roof mounted panels. A typical roof panel giving the output I noted below will be about 5.48*3.2 feet. So two of them will cover 33 square feet. The Aptera does not seem to have that much surface area available to mount the cells.

Assume that you get 5 hours per day of direct sunlight at the optimal angle. That's unlikely as the Aptera has complex curved surfaces so that most of the panel surface will never be at an optimal angle to collect sunlight - but we're being generous. And, in most parts of the world 5 hours per day of direct sunlight is a rarity.

Of course there are efficiency losses so some of the power generated by the solar cells will be lost between the output of the panels and turning the wheels of the device.

So, being generous - that setup will give you a little less than 2900 watts of power per day from the solar cells. Aptera claims that their device can run 1 mile on 100 watts. That means you'd need to store and access 4000 watts from the sun. There's a deficit of 1000 watts or 10 miles right away. It will get worse when you want to cool down or get warmer, when you want to see at night, listen to music while driving or run the electronic control systems.

And yes, that's an expensive go-kart. Rather you than me driving it.

Never charge? No chance!

More mugs are being conned. I am surprised that some people have enough money to afford their Internet connection to post on forums, let alone think about buying into a con-job like this one.

So what you are saying if they get 25 per cent more out of the solar panels than you are thinking it works.

WE have a lot of 50 somethings in this area who are driving three wheel motor cycles that look almost like this. Just because you will not drive it does not mean it will not sell.


Example of what is selling in the USA.

They forgot to mention the best 3wheeler, the Russian built Ural. They have only been around since WW2.
https://www.imz-ural.com/

Wasn't the design and technology of that stolen from the Germans? Pretty sure it was.

As was jet technology for the MIG fighters stolen from Germans, or engineered by captured Germans.

Quote

"the original Ural dates back to the Eastern Front during World War II. The Russians needed reconnaissance and defensive mobility after the Nazis' blitzkrieg of Poland, so they reverse-engineered the Ural from a handful of covertly acquired 1930s German BMW R71s. War is hell, but it sure produces some cool toys."


And

https://advrider.com/the-real-story-of-the-imz-ural-sidecar-outfit/

[Contrarian]

The original 3 seater.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/105060603793661001/

[Texan77]

No it has to have two tires on the front and a single rear or it is not the same animal. Yes even that was invented a long time ago. But what I am showing is the sales of three wheel tricycles are doing quite well. It if funny. If it is in the USA then it is then it is a go cart but if it is made in Russia it is brilliant.