Russian archeological finds.

[Tom Cat]

Beaver's teeth 'used to carve the oldest wooden statue in the world'

http://siberiantimes.com/science/others/news/beavers-teeth-used-to-carve-the-oldest-wooden-statue-in-the-world/

[rw_recruiter]

The Scythian's while there area of range or control reached the edges of Siberia were in no way 'from Siberia'

You may want to read the latest studies on the different groups of Scythians that were released earlier this year. The Eastern Scythians are thought to have descended from the Yamnaya and the North Siberian Nganasan tribes.

[Contrarian]

The Scythian's while there area of range or control reached the edges of Siberia were in no way 'from Siberia'

You may want to read the latest studies on the different groups of Scythians that were released earlier this year. The Eastern Scythians are thought to have descended from the Yamnaya and the North Siberian Nganasan tribes.

Curious where you get this idea? At some point there was a confluence of peoples, no doubt.

The Scythians (/ˈsɪθi.ən/ or /ˈsɪði.ən/; from Ancient Greek: Σκύθαι), also known as Scyths, Saka, Sakae, Sacae, Sai, Iskuzai, or Askuzai, were a large group of Iranian[1][2][3][4] Eurasian nomads who were mentioned by nearby literate peoples as inhabiting large areas in the central Eurasian steppes from about the 9th century BC until about the 1st century BC.[5] The Scythian languages belonged to the Eastern branch of the Iranian languages.[6][7]

Wikipedia article on Scythians

[rw_recruiter]

The Scythian's while there area of range or control reached the edges of Siberia were in no way 'from Siberia'

You may want to read the latest studies on the different groups of Scythians that were released earlier this year. The Eastern Scythians are thought to have descended from the Yamnaya and the North Siberian Nganasan tribes.

Curious where you get this idea? At some point there was a confluence of peoples, no doubt.

The Scythians (/ˈsɪθi.ən/ or /ˈsɪði.ən/; from Ancient Greek: Σκύθαι), also known as Scyths, Saka, Sakae, Sacae, Sai, Iskuzai, or Askuzai, were a large group of Iranian[1][2][3][4] Eurasian nomads who were mentioned by nearby literate peoples as inhabiting large areas in the central Eurasian steppes from about the 9th century BC until about the 1st century BC.[5] The Scythian languages belonged to the Eastern branch of the Iranian languages.[6][7]

Wikipedia article on Scythians

I would not rely on Wikipedia which can be publicly edited and may not be up to date with the latest findings.

Apparently there were several different groups (likely more) of Scythians, the Eastern and Western, with some crossover between the two somewhere in the middle as you mention.

It's a bit heavy reading, but here -

https://images.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/extref/ncomms14615-s1.pdf

[Contrarian]

The Scythian's while there area of range or control reached the edges of Siberia were in no way 'from Siberia'

You may want to read the latest studies on the different groups of Scythians that were released earlier this year. The Eastern Scythians are thought to have descended from the Yamnaya and the North Siberian Nganasan tribes.

Curious where you get this idea? At some point there was a confluence of peoples, no doubt.

The Scythians (/ˈsɪθi.ən/ or /ˈsɪði.ən/; from Ancient Greek: Σκύθαι), also known as Scyths, Saka, Sakae, Sacae, Sai, Iskuzai, or Askuzai, were a large group of Iranian[1][2][3][4] Eurasian nomads who were mentioned by nearby literate peoples as inhabiting large areas in the central Eurasian steppes from about the 9th century BC until about the 1st century BC.[5] The Scythian languages belonged to the Eastern branch of the Iranian languages.[6][7]

Wikipedia article on Scythians

I would not rely on Wikipedia which can be publicly edited and may not be up to date with the latest findings.

Apparently there were several different groups (likely more) of Scythians, the Eastern and Western, with some crossover between the two somewhere in the middle as you mention.

It's a bit heavy reading, but here -

https://images.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/extref/ncomms14615-s1.pdf

Wiki is a good place to start. It may not be the best place, but you can look at their sources.

Bear in mind national pride sometimes gets in the way of accurate information. For example some believe that many Russians have Viking ancestry while Russians themselves may or may not reject that idea.

I was sort of surprised initially but now believe that many Ukrainians and some Russians can trace their ancestry to Iran. Yet again they might also be a mixture. It's a fascinating subject.

https://community.dur.ac.uk/a.k.harrington/variagi.html

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/varangians.shtml

[Contrarian]

Encyclopedia Britannica is known as a premier source of well researched information.

The Scythians were remarkable not only for their fighting ability but also for the complex culture they produced. They developed a class of wealthy aristocrats who left elaborate graves—such as the kurgans in the Valley of the Tsars (or Kings) near Arzhan, 40 miles (60 km) from Kyzyl, Tyva—filled with richly worked articles of gold, as well as beads of turquoise, carnelian, and amber, and many other valuable objects. This class of chieftains, the Royal Scyths, finally established themselves as rulers of the southern Russian and Crimean territories. It is there that the richest, oldest, and most-numerous relics of Scythian civilization have been found. Their power was sufficient to repel an invasion by the Persian king Darius I about 513 bce.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scythian

[rw_recruiter]

For example some believe that many Russians have Viking ancestry while Russians themselves may or may not reject that idea.

I was sort of surprised initially but now believe that many Ukrainians and some Russians can trace their ancestry to Iran. Yet again they might also be a mixture. It's a fascinating subject.

Most likely the other way around in regards to the Vikings and Russians. The location of the kurgans and artifacts give us an idea on this flow. Migrations north and at some point a return to war and raid in the South again. But yes, initial migration patterns indicate a route from Iran into the Black Sea region for the Western Scythians.

Yes, very interesting stuff. Although it has yet to be updated with the study I posted your wiki source supports what I posted upthread about the different groups and possible migrations if you look under the "Genetics" heading. Links to Siberia are found there as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

[Contrarian]

For example some believe that many Russians have Viking ancestry while Russians themselves may or may not reject that idea.

I was sort of surprised initially but now believe that many Ukrainians and some Russians can trace their ancestry to Iran. Yet again they might also be a mixture. It's a fascinating subject.

Most likely the other way around in regards to the Vikings and Russians. The location of the kurgans and artifacts give us an idea on this flow. Migrations north and at some point a return to war and raid in the South again. But yes, initial migration patterns indicate a route from Iran into the Black Sea region for the Western Scythians.

Yes, very interesting stuff. Although it has yet to be updated with the study I posted your wiki source supports what I posted upthread about the different groups and possible migrations if you look under the "Genetics" heading. Links to Siberia are found there as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

I don't follow you when you say "the other way around" in regards to Russians and Vikings. The records show that there were raids by Vikings into Russian lands, not the other way around. There was also trading but due to the hostile nature of many Slavic tribes the Scandinavians had to be prepared to fight as well.

The original Rus were from the area of Sweden so we can properly deduce they were Vikings to start with.

quotation:
"According to the Russian Primary Chronicle (ca. 1040-1118 AD), the Rus were a group of "Varangians," possibly of Swedish origin, who had a leader named Rurik. Rus appears to be derived from the Finnish word for Sweden, *Rotsi, later Ruotsi, which in turn comes from Old Swedish rother, a word associated with rowing or ships, so that rothskarlar meant "rowers" or "seamen."

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/varangians.shtml

[rw_recruiter]

I don't follow you when you say "the other way around" in regards to Russians and Vikings. The original Rus were from the area of Sweden so we can properly deduce they were Vikings to start with!

quotation:
"According to the Russian Primary Chronicle (ca. 1040-1118 AD), the Rus were a group of "Varangians," possibly of Swedish origin, who had a leader named Rurik. Rus appears to be derived from the Finnish word for Sweden, *Rotsi, later Ruotsi, which in turn comes from Old Swedish rother, a word associated with rowing or ships, so that rothskarlar meant "rowers" or "seamen."

If you follow the kurgans by age, the art, and genetic patterns the migrations start by the Black Sea and head North towards the Scandinavian countries. The Scythians are pushed out of the Black Sea region by numerous other groups and during the great migrations. They call this the Kurgan Model. The theory is that at one point they become split and the group to the North becomes the Varangians (Vikings) after mixing with the locals. Scandinavian DNA has traces from the Caucasus and Central Asia.

At one point the vikings backtrack and rejoin or conquer the tribes in that area.

[AvHdB]

WOW what a complex subject. RW, thank you for hours of work that I can NOT bill to anyone! As for Wikipedia try to change a mistake. If you lack a topic start with P. Mondriaan.

After spending quite a bit of time regarding the Scythians there are two questions that arise.

What are the boundaries of Siberia?

Who were in fact the Scythians?

Before my first adventure with a woman from Russia I understood Siberia to be the American version of the Badlands. The actual reality it is far greater in area, more amazing visually and far more diverse in all metrics. Louisa grew up in what is considered Siberia but is in fact Tartar; her appearance was an albino Eskimo.

In research I noticed a Russian map from the start of the 18th century that indicated Siberia encompassed the cities along the Dnieper eastward to Vladivostok and than further eastward to Sitka in present day Alaska! To answer my question, I consider Siberia all regions east of the Urals and north of Lake Baikal to the Bering Strait and the Korean peninsula. Using this reference than the Scythians were never part of the region of what I consider Siberia. BUT I am looking at this from a Western viewpoint.

The actual reality is though most of the ’Scythian’ artifacts on view were discovered around the Black Sea and it seems a few were unearthed just north east of Harkov (Kharkov) and a few further west on the former shorelines of the Caspian Sea. A large number were found in present day Hungary, Moldavia and Romania. However a large number of Scythian artifacts was discovered in the century along the what could be considered the Southern edge of Siberia. To make it simple just North of Mongolia. It gives an idea how far the range of the Scyth's was.

So we come to the question who were the Scythians, I think a time line might help define this. Give me some more time and I will answer this.

[rw_recruiter]

Very complex topic and there are many missing pieces to the puzzle. To make matters more confusing the term "Scythians" has been used to describe many different groups by other people of that time.

Do we include the many known (and still undiscovered) tribes like the Alans and Ases? Which group became the infamous Aesir in Norse mythology? Which group evolved into the Slavs?

You are correct in that some of the best finds are on the rim of the Black Sea. But they have found Scythian artwork in Scandinavia and the Altai Mountains.

The more you research it the more of a conundrum it becomes   

[Tom Cat]

2,000-Year-Old Toddler Skeleton with Elongated Skull Unearthed in Crimea

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2000-year-old-toddler-skeleton-elongated-skull-unearthed-crimea-008506

[AvHdB]

Very complex topic and there are many missing pieces to the puzzle. To make matters more confusing the term "Scythians" has been used to describe many different groups by other people of that time.

Do we include the many known (and still undiscovered) tribes like the Alans and Ases? Which group became the infamous Aesir in Norse mythology? Which group evolved into the Slavs?

You are correct in that some of the best finds are on the rim of the Black Sea. But they have found Scythian artwork in Scandinavia and the Altai Mountains.

The more you research it the more of a conundrum it becomes   

A conundrum is a bit of an understatement.

Bear in mind the Scythes were largely nomadic. There are no ancient Scythian cities if one is to compare this civilisation to the Greeks or Romans.

The Scythes Western sphere of influence was well into present day Romania and Ukraine along the shores of the Black Sea. Here they overlapped and it seems at time were in conflict with the various city states of Greece. The Greeks had trading ports along the Black Sea. As the Greek empire declined some of these harbour were taken over by the Roman empire. Also Alexander the Great became conquerer of large areas just to the South of Scythian region of influence

The Scythians came in contact on their Eastern borders the Kingdom of Khotan in present day China. But the high point of these two cultures were during different periods. The Scythians exerted considerable influence for almost 900 years starting 600 years before the birth of Jesus and diminishing to disappearance of their culture at about 300 years after the birth of Christ, that was a LONG time. The Scythians saw the end of both Greek and Roman Empires. As well as the start of Christianity and the expansion of Islam into new territories.

It seems fairly clear that the Scythian craftsmen were intimately aware of the Greek craftsmanship and vice versa. But other examples show it seems a Buddhist influence and this came from there Eastern borders and neighbours. This is evident in the findings in Tuva a remote region on the border of Mongolia. While there is evidence of their influence on the southern edge of the Ural mountains they never attempted to control this region, but it is within what we call Southern Siberia today. On the other side there were the Celts and again there metal (gold) working skills were impressive and advanced. For a while as the decline of the Roman empire the Celts sphere of influence covered most of Western Europe to the to the centre of Europe. Here the overlap was present in time and empires and without doubt again they each influenced the other.

It should be noted the Celts were primarily swordsmen and the Scythes were horsemen with excellent archery skills. The Scythes were nomadic and this makes making hard and fast statements more difficult. There is little written by themselves and most of what we have comes from adversarial societies. But without doubt the Greeks, the Celts, and Scythes influenced one another with their metal working skills and artifacts.

I read some really odd statements on the internet; amongst them a theory that King Clovis was Scythian as were the ancient Scots and the Ashkenazi Hebrews were Scythian as well. Since both the good King and the Scots show up latter on the stage of history one can discount this. But in fact there might very well be some sort of connection between the Hebrews and Scythes, I have read other variations of this theory. There are extensive DNA reports of both groups and someone with a better understanding of interpreting this material could take a look. One of the central points that the exhibition makes is the Scythes expanded Westward towards Europe, yet in the literature it appears to be the opposite. One of the standpoints that the text to the exhibition seems to make is that the Scythian culture arose in a vacuum, this is pure nonsense.

One point worth noting is how many forgeries of Scythian artefacts there are, some of the ‘best’ are from Russia by The Gokhman Brothers & Israel Rouchomovsky at the end of the 19th century.  About 20 years ago a new group of objects showed up on the art market. Fooling some dealers as well as one of the primary auction houses who had to withdraw the collection shortly before the auction.

The entire collection on view in London comes from the Hermitage of Russia in an article from the Wall Street International is the following which I quote;  "The title of the exhibition was devised by our British colleagues after some thought and reflects above all the way the European public is particularly attracted to the theme of Russia’s legendary region of Siberia, one of the best-known images of our country abroad. And interest in the theme of the warrior, the barbarian Scythian always remains high, wrapped in the romantic aura of the deep past, highlighted by the realities and myths of the modern world.” 1 My suspicion is that the English have used a Russian reference to make the exhibition more compelling for the locals. What does not change is the fact the artifacts are both amazing and beautiful by any viewpoint. At times both modern and elegantly simple.

This overview is both short and does not in a way cover all aspects of the Scythes yes I could make it more detailed but one gets I hope a sense of both their importance and amazing range that there ‘empire’ covered.’ The actual exhibition is on view to early January 2018 at the British Museum on Great Russell Street. 2



1 :  https://wsimag.com/culture/28429-scythians-in-england

2: www.britishmuseum.org

[?ManyQuestions?]

Does the discovery of the remains of a Celeodonta, aka The Woolly Rhino, count as a Russian Archeological find?

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/10-000-year-old-remains-extinct-woolly-rhino-baby-discovered-n321671

[Ste]

There’s a Woolly Mammoth here in Dublin somewhere.

Or is it a Mammoth Woollies?

[Tom Cat]

Discovered: the Great Wall of Siberia dating to '1st millennium BC'

http://www.zmescience.com/science/archaeology/great-wall-siberia-archaeology-15082017/

[Tom Cat]

The bracelet was discovered in 2008, but supposedly it could be much older than originally thought.

Could this stunning bracelet be 65,000-to-70,000 years old?

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/could-this-stunning-bracelet-be-65000-to-70000-years-old/

[Tom Cat]

Ancient warrior unearthed marching to afterlife with his dagger drawn, wearing stylish earrings

http://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/ancient-warrior-unearthed-marching-to-afterlife-with-his-dagger-drawn-wearing-stylish-earrings/

[Tom Cat]

4 places in Russia where the remains of lost civilizations can be found

https://www.rbth.com/russian-x-files/2017/08/30/4-places-in-russia-where-the-remains-of-lost-civilizations-can-be-found_831236

[Tom Cat]

Grave of medieval 'infant prince' found in Arctic, one of 9 newly-discovered burials of 'children

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/grave-of-medieval-infant-prince-found-in-arctic-one-of-nine-newly-discovered-burials-of-children/

[Tom Cat]

For those near London

Scythians review – wine, weed and war as the Siberian nomads charge into battle



 https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/12/scythians-review-warriors-of-ancient-siberia-british-museum-london

[Tom Cat]

Another article related to the exhibit in London

Gaze At The Face Of A 2,000-Year-Old Scythian Warrior From Siberia

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/gaze-at-the-face-of-a-2000yearold-scythian-warrior-from-siberia/

[Tom Cat]

Extinct Denisovans from Siberia made stunning jewellery

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/extinct-denisovans-from-siberia-made-stunning-jewellery-but-did-they-also-discover-australia/

[AvHdB]

For those near London

Scythians review – wine, weed and war as the Siberian nomads charge into battle

 https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/12/scythians-review-warriors-of-ancient-siberia-british-museum-london

This amusing to say that this is the foundation of Stravinsky's, Le Sacre du Printemps (Rite of Spring). I can only assume J. Jones knows nothing of Russian, classical music, early history and how the Scythian came to be re-discovered.

If this is the level of The Guardian than I can better understand the frustration of Manny with said tabloid.

Extinct Denisovans from Siberia made stunning jewellery

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/extinct-denisovans-from-siberia-made-stunning-jewellery-but-did-they-also-discover-australia/

Very interesting ~ thank you.

[Tom Cat]

Not in Russia but an interesting find.

Shipwreck of heroic but unsung British explorer Ben Leigh Smith is 'found' in Arctic waters

http://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/shipwreck-of-heroic-but-unsung-british-explorer-ben-leigh-smith-is-found-in-arctic-waters/