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Author Topic: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера  (Read 3439 times)

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Offline bagalia

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Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« on: September 03, 2015, 12:45:18 AM »
Mod note: This topic was split off from this one.

This talk about Pyatt.

The hatred for Bandera, a man who lived roughly a year and a half actively in ww2 and spent the rest of the war either in a Polish jail or a German prisoner of war camp finally to be most likely murdered by Russian KGB.

All the above because he believed in, sold his soul for, and fought for an independent Ukraine. Fought against Poland, the USSR and Nazi Germany (mostly the USSR which does not forget).

This article which likes to link Bandera to OUN because OUN worships him while Bandera never had any control over OUN.

Bandera is everything Russia wants you to hate. He is a focal point. Most of what you read of him is not revised. It is the original garbage mostly twisted since the Nurenburg trials dismissed the USSRs accusation that he was a war criminal Fascist.

You want real devils, try those that were on all sides of Ukraine at the time.

I know I will not make any friends over this. It will get worse soon.
Misery is the river of the world; everybody row, everybody row.

Offline leslied

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2015, 01:29:04 AM »
Actually Bagalia, I agree with the points you make about Bandera. 

The man and his legend are very different.  He was a genuine Ukraine nationalist.  His recent elevation to legendary hero by "Right Sector" is another matter.

Simple fact is that there will be no negotiated peace settlement whilst "Right Sector" has influence in the negotiations.


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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2015, 03:25:20 AM »
This talk about Pyatt.

Most of what you read of him is not revised. It is the original garbage mostly twisted since the Nurenburg trials dismissed the USSRs accusation that he was a war criminal Fascist.
I have never read anything about Bandera, but from what I heard of my wife when the maidan first started , Bandera was put in the right corner with USSR's sentance above.

My wife lived in L'viv a short while before their parents divorced and her Mama moved to Crimea.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2015, 03:50:59 AM »
Bagalia, where do you get your silly tommy-rot from?

The man was a convicted murderer and terrorist from well before WW2.

Bandera was trained by and worked for the German Abwehr (German military intelligence)

He was a turncoat who worked for the Nazis and his Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis.

He headed OUN-B, so much for not being in control! For the record, there were two branches of OUN. OUN-M which was a relatively non-violent movement and the 'revolutionary' branch OUN-B headed by Bandera. The split occurred because he was too violent for the other leaders of OUN.

OUN-B actively sought to work with the German Nazis. They paid for and supported Bandera's battalions Nachtigale and Roland.

In 1942, Bandera's faction was responsible for a massacre at Volyn.

The list goes on.

Of one thing we can be sure - Bandera was NOT a nationalist. He was a turncoat criminal whose loyalties always fell back to the Germans and the Nazi party.

Bagalia, sometimes life is not as you choose to imagine, nor is it as your thought leaders program you.
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Offline msmoby

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2015, 04:32:14 AM »
Bagalia, where do you get your silly tommy-rot from?

The man was a convicted murderer and terrorist from well before WW2.

Bandera was trained by and worked for the German Abwehr (German military intelligence)

He was a turncoat who worked for the Nazis and his Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis.


Andrewfi, prior to WW2 didn't Stalin aid and abet the Nazi's by carving up Poland and making partsof Poland part of Ukraine  SSR ? Naturally, this caused fighting between Poles and Ukrainians... your selective use of historical facts does you no credit.

I am uncomfortable with Bandera's alleged links to massacres or anti-Semitism, but this article - for those with open/ inquisitive minds might help explain things from varying perspectives...Russian/ eth Russian and Ukrainian.

Hero or villain? WWII partisan Bandera still animates Ukraine-Russia fight

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24765829.html

A good conclusion by a Ukrainian historian - Volodymyr Viatrovych

''Bandera was an underground fighter who used terrorist tactics against superior forces, and who was sentenced to death by Russians, Germans and Poles for his efforts''.

The article concludes ''All that matters today is which myth someone wants to buy into.''

We can see which one andrewfi 'bought' ....

Once again, only an IDIOT would forget the suffering Ukraine endured in WWII. Hitler was a hated occupier..the Kremlin press referring to 'fascists' was so insulting and polarised the nation - possibly the intent. Ukrainians who feel national pride do not HAVE to be fascists and fascists got 2 percent of two recent national votes.


Watch this video from five years ago and ask yourself - did this people become 'fascists' overnight  ?

The irony is the winner of ''Ukraine's got talent'' is from .....Crimea



I have never claimed to be a Blue Beret

Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 12:53:26 PM »
This talk about Pyatt.

The hatred for Bandera, a man who lived roughly a year and a half actively in ww2 and spent the rest of the war either in a Polish jail or a German prisoner of war camp finally to be most likely murdered by Russian KGB.

All the above because he believed in, sold his soul for, and fought for an independent Ukraine. Fought against Poland, the USSR and Nazi Germany (mostly the USSR which does not forget).

This article which likes to link Bandera to OUN because OUN worships him while Bandera never had any control over OUN.

Bandera is everything Russia wants you to hate. He is a focal point. Most of what you read of him is not revised. It is the original garbage mostly twisted since the Nurenburg trials dismissed the USSRs accusation that he was a war criminal Fascist.

You want real devils, try those that were on all sides of Ukraine at the time.

I know I will not make any friends over this. It will get worse soon.

You are seriously deluded when you try to make this about Russia's hatred of Bandera.  Whether or not Russia was/is angelic is entirely beside the point.  Bandera's actions speak for themselves.  First of all he was a hardcore terrorist who murdered a Polish diplomat in cold blood, because he did not want the peace compromise which this diplomat had been working for.

To try to white-wash Bandera is the classic mistake of people incapable of looking at all the facts.  Bandera was to Ukraine what both Hitler and Himmler were to Germany.  His message was clear and to claim he had no control over his men in OUN and other factions is so absurd it's not really worth mentioning yet time and time again the propagandists working to white wash this guy do it over and over.  Himmler in case you don't know didn't get his hands dirty either.  Himmler was the author of the "final solution" yet he never directly murdered anyone.

Bandera did directly murder someone -- the high ranking Polish diplomat who had been working for a peaceful compromise.  The Banderists wanted no compromise and the genocide they perpetuated showed their true nature. 
Would you like me to post a video of what those monsters did to Polish civilians? 

Then there is the silly claim Bandera was in prison.  He was only kept alive as he was useful to the Nazi's and because he was always going to do their bidding.  The Nazi's immediately killed any Soviet partisans and other high ranking communists.  Quick trial and firing squad.  They only kept Bandera alive at Sachsenhausen to use him later. 

It's amazing how foolish people are to fall for the usual propaganda to whitewash this monster, but time after time they do.  Timothy Snider and other historians have clearly spoken against this guy.  I suggest you actually read the link.  The leading historian in that area is Dr. Per Anders Rudling and his declaration about Bandera is clear. 

Leave the Russians out of it and read all prominent historians of the West.  All declare Bandera a war criminal and Nazi collaborator, including Himka.  Some trolls in the past have tried to twist this but it's self evident for anyone with a modicum of common sense.

This article is far from complete.  The "historian" Moby mentioned is a typical West Ukrainian hack trying to whitewash the guy.


excerpt

“He wanted to create a Greater Ukraine reaching from the River Danube to the Caspian Sea,” said Per Anders Rudling, an expert on Ukrainian history at Sweden’s Lund University. “He and his followers, similarly to the Nazis, advocated selective breeding to create ‘pure’ Ukrainians.”

By 1941, however, Bandera’s relationship with Hitler had gone south, and he was thrown into the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. He was released in 1944, however, to aid the Nazis (and Ukrainian nationalists) in black operations behind Soviet lines. On KBG orders, he was poisoned, dying in Munich in 1959."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-ghost-of-world-war-ii-history-haunts-ukraines-standoff-with-russia/2014/03/25/18d4b1e0-a503-4f73-aaa7-5dd5d6a1c665_story.html
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 01:08:56 PM »
Bagalia, where do you get your silly tommy-rot from?

The man was a convicted murderer and terrorist from well before WW2.

Bandera was trained by and worked for the German Abwehr (German military intelligence)

He was a turncoat who worked for the Nazis and his Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought with the Nazis.

He headed OUN-B, so much for not being in control! For the record, there were two branches of OUN. OUN-M which was a relatively non-violent movement and the 'revolutionary' branch OUN-B headed by Bandera. The split occurred because he was too violent for the other leaders of OUN.

OUN-B actively sought to work with the German Nazis. They paid for and supported Bandera's battalions Nachtigale and Roland.

In 1942, Bandera's faction was responsible for a massacre at Volyn.

The list goes on.

Of one thing we can be sure - Bandera was NOT a nationalist. He was a turncoat criminal whose loyalties always fell back to the Germans and the Nazi party.

Bagalia, sometimes life is not as you choose to imagine, nor is it as your thought leaders program you.

I rarely agree with Andrew yet he's completely correct in his facts here.  Since many who are more or less pro-Ukrainian are susceptible to Ukrainian propaganda they need to look at what some prominent historians say who are not Russian.

The pro-Ukrainians who try to whitewash this guy do so by yakking about what Russia did or did not do.  It's all beside the point. 
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline msmoby

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 01:18:50 PM »
Anteros,

I hardly think calling someone a 'terrorist' is white-washing... :coffeeread:

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Spurious claims about 'seeing action' with the Blue Berets are debunked >here<

Here is my Russophobia/Kremlinphobia topic

Offline bagalia

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 04:18:32 PM »
I can see that I need to reopen the Bandera thread. Give me a day or three.

Yes, Bandera was no saint though what he did, he did for Ukraine's independence in an area where I can safely say more than 30 million people died. Most of these people died tragically and horribly. He was responsible for starting a movement which others took charge and in a more negative way used his name. Bandera wrote a book on his strategy. He did not promote mass killings of minorities.

Pers Anderson? The physicist from Stockholm U? Never heard of him and don't know his statement on Bandera.

Historian and author Timothy Snider I like, though I disagree on his death figures and think them way too low. We both agree that this time and this area was a bloodbath such as never seen before. One must be careful interpreting his use of words and not read too far into things. One must also take note of statements that contain no factual evidence. I DO think that a close look into the times is required when discussing Bandera.

Himka is interesting but he is also biased at times. Now if you believe that Holodomor was not genocide then maybe he is your man all the way. He has many opinions and you would need to agree with them all. On this point there are varying opinions yet he falls on one side. I prefer to think of him as having his own feelings as well as facts. We can disagree.

In the end you must study the period and understand the motivations of the time. You can find opposing accounts for almost everything back then so which side do you believe and is there direct evidence or not?

Anteros, you made the statement that Bandera's was a murderer and that he killed the Polish diplomat. This was not true. Bandera was not convicted of killing the Polish diplomat though he was tried. He was however convicted of terrorism.

You infer that Bandera did the Nazi bidding from a German prison camp and I would very much like to see any evidence other than hearsay. There must be some paper, memorandum or even a discussion from the time by the people in charge? Is there evidence that he led his OUN from prison?

Himler cannot even be compared to Bandera. Bandera did not create a "final solution". Bandera did write a solution but nothing at all like that.

I will get back on a lot of this. What I want is evidence when convicting this man. There is evidence out there  concerning what he stood for and his life in general but so far I have seen none from the other side who accuse him of mass murder. Go back and look at the time. Look at the people. Look at the motivations.

But yes, he did collaborate with as well as fight the Nazis for a brief time. How many people collaborated with Nazis? Did the Pope collaborate? It is also true that he was not charged at Nuremberg despite the USSR pushing it. This is a fact.
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 06:55:12 PM »
*SIGH*  Moderators, I hope you will put Bagalia's attempts to whitewash the activities of Nazi collaborator Bandera in this thread, where they belong.

Furthermore this has already been debated extensively.  It simply astonishes me when yet another of these deniers pop up.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,24306.0.html
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 06:58:45 PM »
Here is the work of this so called "nationalist".


         
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Offline bagalia

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2015, 07:11:31 PM »
*SIGH*  Moderators, I hope you will put Bagalia's attempts to whitewash the activities of Nazi collaborator Bandera in this thread, where they belong.

Furthermore this has already been debated extensively.  It simply astonishes me when yet another of these deniers pop up.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,24306.0.html

Don't worry and I will put the thread where it belongs on my own in a couple days. I have been a working man lately. Can't very well do anything while I am getting replies here so just hold it.

And this has not been debated extensively. What has been posted is mostly hearsay. Hearsay that began with the Nurenburg trial and continued long after the USSR got rid of him.
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Offline TomT

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2015, 07:21:59 PM »
It's astonishing that Poland continues to be on good terms with Ukraine after the latter rehabilitated Bandera. Apparently, dead Poles don't harbor grudges and live ones have short memories.
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2015, 07:27:14 PM »
*SIGH*  Moderators, I hope you will put Bagalia's attempts to whitewash the activities of Nazi collaborator Bandera in this thread, where they belong.

Furthermore this has already been debated extensively.  It simply astonishes me when yet another of these deniers pop up.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,24306.0.html

Don't worry and I will put the thread where it belongs on my own in a couple days. I have been a working man lately. Can't very well do anything while I am getting replies here so just hold it.

And this has not been debated extensively. What has been posted is mostly hearsay. Hearsay that began with the Nurenburg trial and continued long after the USSR got rid of him.


That's right pal the USSR assassinated him and good riddance.  Let me give you a little clue about your statement that we (the USA) did not want to convict him at Nuremburg.  General Reinhard Gehlen was our guy and we protected him and all his assets.  And yes, it was debated extensively by a previous pro-Ukrainian Holocaust denier and myself. 
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2015, 07:29:55 PM »
It's astonishing that Poland continues to be on good terms with Ukraine after the latter rehabilitated Bandera. Apparently, dead Poles don't harbor grudges and live ones have short memories.

They feel they've got good reasons to be more afraid of the current crop of Russians then the current crop of Ukrainians.   :popcorn:
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Offline TomT

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2015, 08:00:19 PM »
They feel they've got good reasons to be more afraid of the current crop of Russians then the current crop of Ukrainians.   

Trusting Ukraine to do the right thing validates every Polack joke ever told.
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Offline bagalia

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2015, 08:34:52 PM »
It's astonishing that Poland continues to be on good terms with Ukraine after the latter rehabilitated Bandera. Apparently, dead Poles don't harbor grudges and live ones have short memories.

They feel they've got good reasons to be more afraid of the current crop of Russians then the current crop of Ukrainians.   :popcorn:

OK you all can't let it go but this has been a question that has come up in the past and the long answer is that the Poles.......

...to be continued in a different place.

And there really is an answer backed with paper proof that Poles know but you do not wish to see even though I gave it to you twice.
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2015, 08:48:55 PM »
They feel they've got good reasons to be more afraid of the current crop of Russians then the current crop of Ukrainians.   

Trusting Ukraine to do the right thing validates every Polack joke ever told.

If you're talking about trusting Oligarchs not to steal then I agree.  If you're talking about trusting Ukrainians not to resort to murdering ethnic groups they don't like again, then I disagree.  I don't care for Bandera and his statues should absolutely be taken down, however I see no evidence that the current group of nationalists accounts for more than about 2% of the population.  Yes, they should be monitored for sure. 

In fact I sort of liked your previous idea that Poland should get back the lands which Stalin took away.  Those Bandera statues would come down post haste!   :coffeeread:
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2015, 09:28:28 PM »
Anteros, you made the statement that Bandera's was a murderer and that he killed the Polish diplomat. This was not true. Bandera was not convicted of killing the Polish diplomat though he was tried. He was however convicted of terrorism.


1.  This is from a declassified CIA paper on Bandera in regards to the Polish Interior Minister who was assassinated:

"The OUN functioned until 1938 with such occasional difficulties as the
revelation of the OUN archives to the Czech police in Prague in 1932 and the
BANDERA affair of 1934. In 1932, Stefan BANDERA became commander of the OUN for
Western Ukraine, and Poland. In 1934, he and Mikola LEBED planned and organized
the assassination of PIERACKY, the Polish Minister of the Interior, accused by
the Ukrainians of anti-Ukrainian acts. Although the real assassin, a Ukrainian
worker,    the Polish police arrested a number of Ukrainians, including
RANIERI, MED and Yaroslav STETSKO. Many were condemned to death but the
sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment. All escaped during the first
disorders of the German Weldon in 1939."


Bagalia, to claim that Bandera was not responsible for the death of this man is disingenuous at best and really absurd.  He planned the assassination.  That he did not commit the murder himself is immaterial.  Just as it's immaterial that Himmler did not carry out the "final solution" with his own hands, but through the actions of his Einsatzgruppen.

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Offline bagalia

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 10:01:24 PM »
Anteros, you made the statement that Bandera's was a murderer and that he killed the Polish diplomat. This was not true. Bandera was not convicted of killing the Polish diplomat though he was tried. He was however convicted of terrorism.


1.  This is from a declassified CIA paper on Bandera in regards to the Polish Interior Minister who was assassinated:

"The OUN functioned until 1938 with such occasional difficulties as the
revelation of the OUN archives to the Czech police in Prague in 1932 and the
BANDERA affair of 1934. In 1932, Stefan BANDERA became commander of the OUN for
Western Ukraine, and Poland. In 1934, he and Mikola LEBED planned and organized
the assassination of PIERACKY, the Polish Minister of the Interior, accused by
the Ukrainians of anti-Ukrainian acts. Although the real assassin, a Ukrainian
worker,    the Polish police arrested a number of Ukrainians, including
RANIERI, MED and Yaroslav STETSKO. Many were condemned to death but the
sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment. All escaped during the first
disorders of the German Weldon in 1939."


Bagalia, to claim that Bandera was not responsible for the death of this man is disingenuous at best and really absurd.  He planned the assassination.  That he did not commit the murder himself is immaterial.  Just as it's immaterial that Himmler did not carry out the "final solution" with his own hands, but through the actions of his Einsatzgruppen.


I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you when you said "Bandera did directly murder someone".

As for myself, I said he was tried for the murder ( done by H. Matseyko) and not found guilty. I would assume that conspiracy to murder would have been in the cards.

Now he probably did and much worse. He was no saint for sure though perhaps a saint compared to the insanity going on around him. In the end he was acquitted by a hostile court and that speaks probably more than the opinion of the CIA.
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Offline Anteros

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2015, 10:28:58 PM »
Anteros, you made the statement that Bandera's was a murderer and that he killed the Polish diplomat. This was not true. Bandera was not convicted of killing the Polish diplomat though he was tried. He was however convicted of terrorism.


1.  This is from a declassified CIA paper on Bandera in regards to the Polish Interior Minister who was assassinated:

"The OUN functioned until 1938 with such occasional difficulties as the
revelation of the OUN archives to the Czech police in Prague in 1932 and the
BANDERA affair of 1934. In 1932, Stefan BANDERA became commander of the OUN for
Western Ukraine, and Poland. In 1934, he and Mikola LEBED planned and organized
the assassination of PIERACKY, the Polish Minister of the Interior, accused by
the Ukrainians of anti-Ukrainian acts. Although the real assassin, a Ukrainian
worker,    the Polish police arrested a number of Ukrainians, including
RANIERI, MED and Yaroslav STETSKO. Many were condemned to death but the
sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment. All escaped during the first
disorders of the German Weldon in 1939."


Bagalia, to claim that Bandera was not responsible for the death of this man is disingenuous at best and really absurd.  He planned the assassination.  That he did not commit the murder himself is immaterial.  Just as it's immaterial that Himmler did not carry out the "final solution" with his own hands, but through the actions of his Einsatzgruppen.


I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you when you said "Bandera did directly murder someone".

As for myself, I said he was tried for the murder ( done by H. Matseyko) and not found guilty. I would assume that conspiracy to murder would have been in the cards.

Now he probably did and much worse. He was no saint for sure though perhaps a saint compared to the insanity going on around him. In the end he was acquitted by a hostile court and that speaks probably more than the opinion of the CIA.


The OSS (forerunner to the CIA) and Reinhard Gehlen are why he was not convicted at Nuremburg.  He was kept alive by the Germans during WWII because he was seen as useful.  They put to death all Bolsheviks who were captured and most others.

You might enjoy this article:


http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/28392-are-there-nazis-in-ukraine-a-visit-to-lviv


excerpt

"How did Ukraine chose to commemorate and make sense of the atrocities that took place by the OUN and UPA? Historian Per A. Rudling in his article The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths, explains that in as early as 1943, the OUN engaged in historical revision and blamed the killings on Germans and Poles (46). The UPA went as far as to fabricate evidence after it was apparent that the Germans were losing the war (47). Indeed, by 1947, the UPA denied it was ever anti-Semitic or that it took part in actions against Jews (48). One OUN leader said that Ukrainians suffered from the actions of the Germans more than the Jews (49). However, OUN and UPA leaders were not executed by the Nazis, but eventually released (50), while Jews were subject to a different fate".
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Offline TomT

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2015, 05:54:06 AM »
If you're talking about trusting Oligarchs not to steal then I agree. 

I am referring to something else. Mobs were beating people to death with clubs in the middle ages, in WWII, in the Odessa Customs House and in the cleansing operations; nothing has changed and nothing will change except the efficiency of the killing. They are primitive people from a culture that has no concept of ethics... not that the GWB administration was any better. The same mentality is displayed in their attitude toward scamming foreign men. (That should give bride-seekers a nice, warm feeling!)

http://www.laplumeagratter.fr/2014/06/25/ukraine-le-sort-des-juifs-en-galicie-1-2-par-olivier-berruyer/
"Get away from the keyboard little man. I know where you live." (Message left in my facebook mailbox by our resident psychopath.)

Offline Ste

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Re: Stepan Bandera - Степан Бандера
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2015, 06:52:28 AM »
I just asked my better half who he was and she said 'some terrorist'!
O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.


 

 

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