Moby's Russophobia and Kremlinphobia

[Manny]

NATO - a body to which aspiring several former USSR nations joined. 

Fixed that for you. You're welcome. 

[AvHdB]

NATO - a body to which aspiring several former USSR nations joined. 

Fixed that for you. You're welcome. 

So you are troubled by freedom of association?

[Manny]

NATO - a body to which aspiring several former USSR nations joined. 

Fixed that for you. You're welcome. 

So you are troubled by freedom of association?

No, I am troubled by disingenuous people who knowingly disseminate untruths. 

[msmoby]

As a matter of principle though I think that the Russian government is not too unhappy to have CNN and others spouting rubbish because Russian media consumers see it and know it to be rubbish. Worth noting that Russian TV often invites foreign media reps onto popular current affairs and news shows for interviews and discussion panels.

and when was your last viewing of RU - you being a 'Russian speaker' ? 

We see Mssrs Peskov ( spokesman) and ( FM ) Lavrov being interviewed on 'western' TV, you know ... 

RT often picks some right ( mainly left)  loonies- broadcasting from from their bedrooms in the UK / US - who we've never heard of  - as 'vindication' ... 

Russian media consumers - those watching - the Kremlin owned / controlled by mates of the Kremlin channels are fed a diet of former Soviet style one-sided 'look what your govt is doing for you' and very little air-time is given to those 'broadcasting from bedroom' opposition ..... 

[msmoby]

TomCat, surely you do not think that the U.S meddling in Syria (Iraq, LIbya, Ukraine, Afghanistan) is about nation building and peacemaking do you?

While it seems that there are conflicting power groups involved in U.S 'intervention' in Syria, overall U.S interests are served by chaos, destruction and instability. They do not need to win any wars to take benefit from their presence.

Ri-ight...

"chaos, destruction and instability."

E.Ukraine

Georgia

Syria

..there is a second and more common denominator .... 'interesting' you chose to focus on the minor 'player' in Syria...

[Ste]

Bottom line is Russia is there by invitation of the legal Syrian government.

This comment and RT's coverage of Syria being more 'honest' that the USA's had my eyes rolling  - such is your naivety

Some kind person saved you from my first response - asking when you've experienced Syria ...  it's just that I have and the Assad dynasty weren't elected and they even tried to hold an 'election' which the UN's then Sec Gen suggested was meaningless

FACT: those coming to help Assad's dynasty from falling were NOT coming to the aid of the majority of Syrians.. 
 

Like it or not, Assad is the legitimate government until the people get someone else. Right now thats not happening.

Just as Lukashenko is the legitimate government of Belarus , despite him being a dictator.

Nowhere does it say that 'legitimate' equals democracy.

Could say that about Crimea though wrt legitmacy.

In the worlds eyes Ukraine is still the legitimate goverment, democracy doesn’t enter into it.

My statement is for the purpose of debate, not to stir up sides...


.

[Markje]

Could say that about Crimea though wrt legitmacy.

In the worlds eyes Ukraine is still the legitimate goverment, democracy doesn’t enter into it.

My statement is for the purpose of debate, not to stir up sides...

In that light, what will happen soon in Catalonia (Spain) and what already happened in Kosovo should be regarded as equal to Crimea's situation.

If we take Kosovo as precedence (Putin did)  , Crimea is a legal situation and therefore Russia.
That will also mean that if Catalonia decides to separate, that the EU should force spain to accept it.

[Contrarian]

Could say that about Crimea though wrt legitmacy.

In the worlds eyes Ukraine is still the legitimate goverment, democracy doesn’t enter into it.

My statement is for the purpose of debate, not to stir up sides...

In that light, what will happen soon in Catalonia (Spain) and what already happened in Kosovo should be regarded as equal to Crimea's situation.

If we take Kosovo as precedence (Putin did)  , Crimea is a legal situation and therefore Russia.
That will also mean that if Catalonia decides to separate, that the EU should force spain to accept it.

Crimea is a bit tricky because force was used and there was not a genuine choice on the ballot to remain with Ukraine.

I still believe a majority of people living in Crimea would have chosen to go with Russia though.

[shakespear]

I still believe a majority of people living in Crimea would have chosen to go with Russia though.

There is no doubt that is true.  From a self-determination point of view; wrong action right result.

That said, the Article 73 of the Ukrainian Constitution has specific provisions on how a region can succeed from Ukraine and those provisions were completely ignored by the Russians and the vote. 

[shakespear]

and when was your last viewing of RT - you being a 'Russian speaker' ? 

I watch quite often.  One of their ace reporters - Miguel Francis-Santiago is one of my frequent Moscow drinking buddies. 

[msmoby]

I still believe a majority of people living in Crimea would have chosen to go with Russia though.

Let's all 'forget' that the occupants of Crimea were  quite happy to be an autonomous part of Ukraine ..Didn't some folks read the surveys throughout the noughties ?   They were quite happy to vote for the Party of Regions

What changed was ( many)  BS propaganda about Nazi's in Euromaidan - and the  - then - Indian - UN Commissioner for Human Rights said this in Jan 2104 - it was destabilising and dangerous


One wonders whether the 'Uncle or Nephew' have any experience of Criimea / Russia / Ukraine ...

[Ste]

I still believe a majority of people living in Crimea would have chosen to go with Russia though.

Let's all 'forget' that the occupants of Crimea were  quite happy to be an autonomous part of Ukraine ..Didn't some folks read the surveys throughout the noughties ?   They were quite happy to vote for the Party of Regions

What changed was ( many)  BS propaganda about Nazi's in Euromaidan - and the  - then - Indian - UN Commissioner for Human Rights said this in Jan 2104 - it was destabilising and dangerous


One wonders whether the 'Uncle or Nephew' have any experience of Criimea / Russia / Ukraine ...

Bit like Trump and Brexit....

[dcguyusa]

how a region can succeed from Ukraine

I think the word to be used here is secede.   However, if the intent is to imply becoming a successor of Ukraine (Novorossiya), by becoming the first part of the country to be joined to Russia, then the word is appropriate.

[msmoby]

A response to cornfed:

So interesting that it got moved to my 'russophobe' thread - rather than be 'allowed' to be seen in response to Ant's 'expert' knowledge of Syria and Syrians


Let's all 'forget' that the occupants of Crimea were  quite happy to be an autonomous part of Ukraine ..Didn't some folks read the surveys throughout the noughties ?   They were quite happy to vote for the Party of Regions

What changed was ( many)  BS propaganda about Nazi's in Euromaidan - and the  - then - Indian - UN Commissioner for Human Rights said this in Jan 2104 - it was destabilising and dangerous


One wonders whether the 'Uncle or Nephew' have any experience of Criimea / Russia / Ukraine ...

No need to demonstrate the unsubtle Soviet-style censorship style by ensuring this post doesn't see the light of day in the place it was posted ...   

In case it in't clear - YES - I think the Kremlin went into Syria - without the best interests of the majority of Syrians at heart - in the same way that I think Trump is a dick-head if he scraps the Iran deal...  Does that make me 'anti-American' - because I think their President is a jerk  ? ..

[msmoby]

Wow - my response to andrewfi got 'moved' too - does the truth need to be covered up THAT much ?))

and when was your last viewing of RU - you being a 'Russian speaker' ? 

We see Mssrs Peskov ( spokesman) and ( FM ) Lavrov being interviewed on 'western' TV, you know ... 

RT often picks some right ( mainly left)  loonies- broadcasting from from their bedrooms in the UK / US - who we've never heard of  - as 'vindication' ... 

Russian media consumers - those watching - the Kremlin owned / controlled by mates of the Kremlin channels are fed a diet of former Soviet style one-sided 'look what your govt is doing for you' and very little air-time is given to those 'broadcasting from bedroom' opposition .....

[rosco]

Bottom line is Russia is there by invitation of the legal Syrian government.

This comment and RT's coverage of Syria being more 'honest' that the USA's had my eyes rolling  - such is your naivety

Some kind person saved you from my first response - asking when you've experienced Syria ...  it's just that I have and the Assad dynasty weren't elected and they even tried to hold an 'election' which the UN's then Sec Gen suggested was meaningless

FACT: those coming to help Assad's dynasty from falling were NOT coming to the aid of the majority of Syrians.. 
 

Like it or not, Assad is the legitimate government until the people get someone else. Right now thats not happening.

Just as Lukashenko is the legitimate government of Belarus , despite him being a dictator.

Nowhere does it say that 'legitimate' equals democracy.

Could say that about Crimea though wrt legitmacy.

In the worlds eyes Ukraine is still the legitimate goverment, democracy doesn’t enter into it.

My statement is for the purpose of debate, not to stir up sides...


.

The worlds eyes - an untrue sweeping statement, delivered with self confidence, designed to elicit lefty fact.

[Markje]

Crimea is a bit tricky because force was used and there was not a genuine choice on the ballot to remain with Ukraine.

I still believe a majority of people living in Crimea would have chosen to go with Russia though.

Because Crimea at that point , was already not attached to Ukraine anymore. The Crimean authorities declared independence so the vote ballot was:

1) Join Russia
2) Stay independent nation.

Mark.

[Ste]

Crimea is a bit tricky because force was used and there was not a genuine choice on the ballot to remain with Ukraine.

I still believe a majority of people living in Crimea would have chosen to go with Russia though.

Because Crimea at that point , was already not attached to Ukraine anymore. The Crimean authorities declared independence so the vote ballot was:

1) Join Russia
2) Stay independent nation.

Mark.

UDI’s are not legal under international law so in the eyes of the law and of the world was still part of Ukraine.

Edit: i am wrong on this, ignore..
.

[andrewfi]

Just saw moby's post above. Our resident indigent moby, for all the time he reckons to be in Russia, assuming he is not, again, being dishonest, never came across REN-TV? We get that in Estonia and, although I no longer take the channel, I have seen Tigran Keosayan and his program Vecher. Then there's Dmitry Kiselyov with Vesti Nedeli and another Sunday program with Vladimir Solovyev. These are some of the most popular shows on Russian TV, watched by millions.

Given that you tell us you now spend so much time in Russia how come you don't know this stuff moby?
Are things not quite as you'd have us believe? Are you still poking at your Uncle's keyboard from your couch surfing resort oop north?

[andrewfi]

Ste, when the coup took place in Ukraine there was a new state with a new government. That which went before did not necessarily carry over to the new state. The region of Crimea ans Sevastopol already had a large degree of autonomy and were, in the opinion of the legislators in the region, no longer bound by previous arrangements because the party with whom those agreements was made no longer existed.

Legally, there's all sorts of justifications for what Crimea did and the foregoing is just one. You can pick for yourself the one you prefer but the reality is that many of the justifications have merit.

That's why folks trying to draw comparisons with Catalonia in Spain are getting mixed up though. One case does not justify the other because there has been no new state and thus no reason to make new arrangements and, while the Spanish constitution provides means by which Catalonia can secede from the Spanish state, the constitutional steps taken by the leadership of the Catalan independence movement has not put into place any measure to enable those steps to be taken. That means their only way forward becomes force of arms.

[msmoby]

The worlds eyes - an untrue sweeping statement, delivered with self confidence, designed to elicit lefty fact.

100:11 ( UN Gen assembly) 13:1 ( UN Sec Council)  ..

1/ Pretty accurate

2/ apolitical

3/ Delivered factually - as you now see - remembering that Russia vetoed at the Sec Council ... effectively 100:10 and 13:0 ...

[msmoby]

Just saw moby's post above. Our resident indigent moby, for all the time he reckons to be in Russia, assuming he is not, again, being dishonest, never came across REN-TV? We get that in Estonia and, although I no longer take the channel, I have seen Tigran Keosayan and his program Vecher. Then there's Dmitry Kiselyov with Vesti Nedeli and another Sunday program with Vladimir Solovyev. These are some of the most popular shows on Russian TV, watched by millions.

Given that you tell us you now spend so much time in Russia how come you don't know this stuff moby?
Are things not quite as you'd have us believe? Are you still poking at your Uncle's keyboard from your couch surfing resort oop north?

In reverse order:

1/ I 'sofa surf' when staying at My Uncle's - if Mama dearest has the double bed in the guest room and I prefer the sofa downstairs - as I wake up early and can chat to SC - without waking people up

2/ I also 'sofa-surf' in Didsbury - Sister ( sofa bed ) , N.Wales - double beds and even in Russia ( friends Dacha - when all the aprts are rented out) 

3/ Gosh, I even have my own PC - so why the need to use my Uncle's ? BTW he voted Brexit and is now -seeing the Tories in disarray - regretting it ..

4/ REN-TV is a free channel - in Russia - not sure why you'd 'pay' for it in Estonia

5/ REN-TV ratings:  v.low - compared to the big 4 - could this be why ?.. "In 2015, REN TV's documentaries were awarded "the most harmful pseudoscientific project (for spreading of myths, delusions and superstitions)" antiprize of a state prize of the Ministry of Education and Science for propaganda of conspiracy theories and mistrust for science" ( Source - Wiki)

Now, we learn where andrewfi sources some of his wordy bollox ...

However, if you actually DO know Russia -you'd know this was the place to get Russia's Top Gear ......

[msmoby]

Ste, when the coup took place in Ukraine there was a new state with a new government.

Incorrect

1/ The Elected President - having relied on thuggery to 'rule' - and aware that the game was up re his robbing the national coffers with his family RAN to Russian - was helped by Russians to evade arrest

2/ There was indeed a new govt. and subsequent elections - where elections could BE held - endorsed the changes

Now follows total flannel  - it is well known that the military take-over Crimea was long planned - hardly a 'legal' stunt and if there were STILL any doubt 100:11, 13:1 at respective votes at the UN are a clue...

Legally, there's all sorts of justifications for what Crimea did and the foregoing is just one. You can pick for yourself the one you prefer but the reality is that many of the justifications have merit.

'legally' - in that who controls makes the law ? ....

Now, we get andrewfi demonstrating why he's not an economist nor a expert on Spain, Ukraine, Russia ..

That's why folks trying to draw comparisons with Catalonia in Spain are getting mixed up though. One case does not justify the other because there has been no new state and thus no reason to make new arrangements and, while the Spanish constitution provides means by which Catalonia can secede from the Spanish state, the constitutional steps taken by the leadership of the Catalan independence movement has not put into place any measure to enable those steps to be taken. That means their only way forward becomes force of arms.

Not really sure how anyone is getting 'mixed up' - other than you ....  These movements for self-determination are often the result of previous historical / political settlements that fester and people's that don't feel connected to a capital.  Mature nations agree a path and allow campaigns and votes ... no need for military involvement

As we have seen recently - other nations with agendas even promote disharmony - whilst placing a total ban on talk of 'self-determination' from within

Certainly, using batons on voters only promotes a movement that might not have had support

Certainly, I don't want folks getting hurt or dying for another cause or it's prevention .... this is a time for cool heads - not scoring political points

[andrewfi]

Moby, you dishonest, tiresome troll.

I gave you several examples of stuff that you claimed did not exist. You don't even know enough to be aware that not all the examples came from the same source.

Here's another thing, just because something is 'free' in one place it is not axiomatic that it is 'free' elsewhere. However, even if a thing is 'free' is it axiomatic that one must take that thing? You might think so, you don't have much choice, being indigent and all.

Thanks for updating us on the state of your homelessness. Over here, and in Russia, there's a couple of terms used by women to describe men like you. Men who depend for their living upon the goodwill of women, men who have nothing that does not fit in a suitcase. Some call them 'Alfonse' others call them, in English, 'suitcase guys'.

[msmoby]

Moby, you dishonest, tiresome troll.

From the guy who suggests my 'lack of credit-worthiness' and hides behind moderation skirts when all the credit cards got posted   

Unlike you, I really don't make up bollox to 'score a point'...

Ah well, let's 'indulge' you further:

I gave you several examples of stuff that you claimed did not exist. You don't even know enough to be aware that not all the examples came from the same source.

And proved you haven't watched REN-TV in one HECK of a while ...

Here's another thing, just because something is 'free' in one place it is not axiomatic that it is 'free' elsewhere. However, even if a thing is 'free' is it axiomatic that one must take that thing? You might think so, you don't have much choice, being indigent and all.

Sorry, you are now talking to an EXPERT on receiving TV - if you paid to receive REN-TV in Estonia - you ARE 'silly' - now it MAY have been part of a package... that is something else...

It is available FTA that's free to air ) in Estonia - if you have the smarts - quite legally ...

Thanks for updating us on the state of your homelessness.

I don't own a home in the north of England or Wales....   I'm not sure how this makes me 'homeless' - which - of course - I'm not - either in the UK or Russia .. but this is but another example of andrewfi being diversionary 'personal' instead of dealing with your howlers - when busted

Over here, and in Russia, there's a couple of terms used by women to describe men like you. Men who depend for their living upon the goodwill of women, men who have nothing that does not fit in a suitcase. Some call them 'Alfonse' others call them, in English, 'suitcase guys'.

 

'Alfonse' always enjoys to read your vision of his life-style and wonders if it wasn't an accurate estimation of yours ?....

May be it is time to update your 'reliable sources' ....