Re: The Non-Invasion of Finland

[el_guero]

Finland 'in no position' to defend Baltic states: president

http://news.yahoo.com/finland-no-position-defend-baltic-states-president-181747471.html

Of course not, the only world power Finland ever kicked around was Russia ....

Wayne

[el_guero]

As for the constant allusion to the "non-invasion" of Ukraine by Russia:

Russia has Ukraine surrounded and infiltrated with about 250,000 troops total.

There have been several dozen terrorist attacks on Ukrainian soil by pro-Russian forces.  Some attacks have been by common thugs, others by more sophisticated para-military 'operators.'

Unless the CIA and MI-6 (SIS) have gotten together to cause a black-flag operation in Ukraine, or Belorussia is behind this, the cause of the incursions lies with Russian citizens.  But, I have not seen even non-credible Russian propaganda claiming operators have belonged to any country other than Russia.

Wayne

[Manny]

Finland 'in no position' to defend Baltic states: president

http://news.yahoo.com/finland-no-position-defend-baltic-states-president-181747471.html

What we are seeing there is Finland not wanting to be embroiled into American silliness in the region and preferring to keep good relations with Russia. The article correctly notes that most Finns are opposed to the idea of joining NATO.

There is of course the usual line about Russian military activity in the Baltic sea, and the usual omission that Russia has a military base there and is quite entitled to use it. 

[andrewfi]

And, of course Russia has a mainland shoreline to the Baltic as well as seaports, oil/gas terminals.

So far the only sneaky submarine discovered (apart from the US one a while back) was from early in the 20th century and the airspace incursions have actually been no such thing.

Russia and Finland have a pretty good working relationship on the whole. The Estonians make money from their pretence of fear and the resultant NATO/US military presence here.

[msmoby]

What we are seeing there is Finland not wanting to be embroiled into American silliness in the region and preferring to keep good relations with Russia. The article correctly notes that most Finns are opposed to the idea of joining NATO.

Manny, the Finns are just being realistic  - Russia is the important trading partner.. if you think they do not pine for Karelia in the same way Russian's now say 'Crimea was always ours'.....

[Manny]

What we are seeing there is Finland not wanting to be embroiled into American silliness in the region and preferring to keep good relations with Russia. The article correctly notes that most Finns are opposed to the idea of joining NATO.

Manny, the Finns are just being realistic  - Russia is the important trading partner.. if you think they do not pine for Karelia in the same way Russian's now say 'Crimea was always ours'.....

Shame the EU could not have emulated their example.

[andrewfi]

I don't think that there are too many Finns who pine for Karelia.
The single biggest benefit of the area was as a buffer zone around Saint Petersburg during the Great Patriotic War. There was a vibrant port at Vyborg but now the region is inhabited by Russophones, the level of economic development is way lower than in Finland and there's nothing there that anyone wants these days.

Finland is not short of skinny pine and birch trees and does not need more unproductive and desolate land, no matter how pretty it looks on post cards.

Like Ukraine, Finland did not exist as a true state until the end of the 19th century. Apart from the folks who lived there at the time there's not many to 'worry' and no great cultural heritage binding the region to the souls of Pekka and Paivi Suomalainen and, of course, the folks who moved out of Karelia ended up with a substantial improvement in their standard of living as a result.

[msmoby]

I don't think that there are too many Finns who pine for Karelia.

You should know better..

The single biggest benefit of the area was as a buffer zone around Saint Petersburg during the Great Patriotic War. There was a vibrant port at Vyborg but now the region is inhabited by Russophones, the level of economic development is way lower than in Finland and there's nothing there that anyone wants these days.

Ah, I see - now you are telling the relatives of those ethnically cleansed- some who are still alive  - how 'grateful' they should be ... 

Finland is not short of skinny pine and birch trees and does not need more unproductive and desolate land, no matter how pretty it looks on post cards.

IF those 'Silly' Finns who died fighting to protect such 'useless' land had had the benefit of your wisdom ...

Like Ukraine, Finland did not exist as a true state until the end of the 19th century.

Please could you explain the relevance of this to the fact that Karelia was militarily taken from a nation recognised by the league of nations in the same way Crimea was an agreed part of Ukraine with the use of a third nations military..  ?

Apart from the folks who lived there at the time there's not many to 'worry' and no great cultural heritage binding the region to the souls of Pekka and Paivi Suomalainen and, of course, the folks who moved out of Karelia ended up with a substantial improvement in their standard of living as a result.

Andrewfi, perhaps you should attend meeting of people ethnically cleansed - now living far better than those using the homes they were forced to abandon. You would certainly not post with such clear lack of thought - something you'd never accuse anyone of doing, of course.

[Tom Cat]

This would have you believe they are singling out Russians.

Finland to introduce fingerprint scans for Russians seeking visas

http://yle.fi/uutiset/finland_to_introduce_fingerprint_scans_for_russians_seeking_visas/8266851

Once the finger print scans start, travel might slow down even more

Travel to and from Russia slows down

http://yle.fi/uutiset/travel_to_and_from_russia_slows_down/7483057

[Tom Cat]

The list, fearing Russian aggression just keeps growing.

Sweden rethinking neutrality amid fear of Russian aggression

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84343200/

[andrewfi]

[Personal comment removed]. Get back to us with concrete details about the ongoing campaign to get Karelia back, yes?
How about you share some of the sob stories of those people alive today suffering in Finland as a result of Finland having lost the Winter War.

Hmmmm?

We both know what happens next. You will do nothing to support your silly and dishonest claims but you will continue to try to waste the time of productive members of society.

But, let us once again give you the benefit of the doubt, let us assume you actually do the learning to back up your silly posts. Guess what's going to happen? You'll find that there is no large scale campaign, indeed not even a small scale campaign to get Karelia  back. You'll find that there are no suffering refugees.

But will you get back to us with the product of your new found learning? No,  of course you won't because that'd mean admitting that you had previously been trolling on a topic about which you know nothing. In moby's world there can be no failing on the part of moby, only the rest of humanity gets to let poor moby down.

By the way, when are you back to see your erstwhile target in Russia?

[msmoby]

Get back to us with concrete details about the ongoing campaign to get Karelia back, yes?
How about you share some of the sob stories of those people alive today suffering in Finland as a result of Finland having lost the Winter War.

Hmmmm?

We both know what happens next. You will do nothing to support your silly and dishonest claims but you will continue to try to waste the time of productive members of society.

Well, now andrewfi - I decided to GO there -  and to Finland -  to see for myself next year...  Be sure to tune in...

By the way, when are you back to see your erstwhile target in Russia?

Well, if the Kremlin haven't decided I'm persona non grata you'll see soon, enough - but my 'erstwhile target' and I have 'business to attend to' in other lands. 


'Sorry', if that isn't exactly the answer you reuired, but if - for some strange reason - you are not party to my travel plans - I'm sure someone can explain why ..

[Tom Cat]

Did Russia make a threat ?

Sweden summons Russia ambassador after Nato threat

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34225903

[msmoby]

Continuing andrewfi and Manny's assertions that Finns are generally happy with Karelia being Russian and that relations are 'sweet'...

I read up on the ''Paasikivi-Kekkonen line'' - which was a foreign policy doctrine adopted by the first two Finnish Presidents after WW2 - clearly designed to keep the Soviet Union 'on side'

The ' Soviet-Finnish mutual assistance pact' - ''Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance '' was dumped -  in 1991 and replaced by trade agreements

Finland was obligated;

1/  with the aid of the Soviet Union, if necessary, to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" (i.e., NATO) against Finland or against the Soviet Union through Finland.

At the same time, the agreement

2/ recognized Finland's desire to remain outside great-power conflicts.

This agreement was renewed for 20 years in 1955, in 1970, and again in 1983.

This allowed Finland to retain independence in internal affairs, e.g. a multi-party parliamentary system, and not to join the Eastern Bloc. However, joining NATO or other overt alliance with the West was out of question and foreign policy was often limited.


[moby wiki warning - this section  - below - has no sources to back up the wiki authors contention ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paasikivi%E2%80%93Kekkonen_Line

After the break up of the USSR it was discovered that The Soviet military kept a separate unit in readiness to invade Helsinki from Tallinn in the case of war. The plans, which were fully up-to-date, were left behind in the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Estonia after Estonia become independent.

The winter war - seizure of Karelia - may well have been an epic Stalin 'fail' ... it seems he wanted to claim all of Finland - but the campaign / losses endured meant a deal was done - to concentrate on the Nazi threat.

No mention of the Finnish threat was made in Soviet newspapers until three weeks before the campaign ..it was meant to be a “A little victorious war” - that lasted nearly 5 years and is rarely mentioned - even now.

Source;

http://www.solonin.org/en/article_mark-solonin-25-june-stupidity3

So, having established the background, I'll come back to dispute the contention that most Finns are 'happy' about the status quo - esp. after the physical interventions in Georgia and UKraine.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_researcher_russia_ramping_up_its_information_war/8385245

UUTISET
NEWS
News 15.10.2015 20:09
Finnish researcher: Russia ramping up its information war


I can't read Finnish - but it seems this young lady might not share andrewfi's viewpoint re the attitude of Finns to a the Kremlin 'infowars'


http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_researcher_russia_ramping_up_its_information_war/8385245

[el_guero]

Did Russia make a threat ?

Sweden summons Russia ambassador after Nato threat

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34225903

I doubt Russia would threaten the Finns. Everyone else? Yes, but not the Finns.

Wayne

[Gipsy]

Did Russia make a threat ?

Sweden summons Russia ambassador after Nato threat

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34225903

I doubt Russia would threaten the Finns. Everyone else? Yes, but not the Finns.

Wayne

Exactly..

[Tom Cat]

Getting to Know You: Finland Pitches in €100,000 for US Study on Putin.

http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160420/1038331385/finland-putin-us-study.html

[SOUTHERN X]

good article &
yes she definitly has the   correct grip on how it has been working
SX

http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_researcher_russia_ramping_up_its_information_war/8385245 Doctor of Military Science and infowar expert Saara Jantunen has released a new book in Finnish on the Russian misinformation campaign. Named ‘Infosota’, the book explores the ruthless front lines of the concentrated Russian infowar effort, including its troll houses – where hundreds of Russian bloggers are paid to flood forums and social networks at home and abroad with anti-western and pro-Kremlin comments.

For nearly a decade now, the Kremlin has been busily waging an information war mainly through its international broadcaster RT (formerly known as Russia Today). In 2015, Russia increased its spending on RT by more than 50 percent to over 260 million euros.

The other arm of the Kremlin's international media operation, the news agency Rossiya Segodnya (Russia Today), now also gets the equivalent of 78 million euros in state funding. These increases were needed to partially offset the recent slump in the rouble's value, but they also underline the increasing importance the Kremlin attaches to its international media

[Manny]

good article &
yes she definitly has the   correct grip on how it has been working
SX

http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_researcher_russia_ramping_up_its_information_war/8385245 Doctor of Military Science and infowar expert Saara Jantunen has released a new book in Finnish on the Russian misinformation campaign. Named ‘Infosota’, the book explores the ruthless front lines of the concentrated Russian infowar effort, including its troll houses – where hundreds of Russian bloggers are paid to flood forums and social networks at home and abroad with anti-western and pro-Kremlin comments.

For nearly a decade now, the Kremlin has been busily waging an information war mainly through its international broadcaster RT (formerly known as Russia Today). In 2015, Russia increased its spending on RT by more than 50 percent to over 260 million euros.

The other arm of the Kremlin's international media operation, the news agency Rossiya Segodnya (Russia Today), now also gets the equivalent of 78 million euros in state funding. These increases were needed to partially offset the recent slump in the rouble's value, but they also underline the increasing importance the Kremlin attaches to its international media

The pinned tweet on her Twitter page is from the US Embassy. That tells us all we need to know about Saara Jantunen I guess.

[Anteros]

^
Golly Gosh, your source of advertising is RT, funded by the Kremlin. 

Imagine if Russia had spent 250 Million Euros on rooting out corruption and modernizing their country, instead of propaganda.  Oh well. 

[Manny]

Golly Gosh, your source of advertising is RT, funded by the Kremlin. 

We have several advertisers and member donors and no specific single 'source of funding'. See, when you want to take a poke, you need to actually use facts to do so; or be corrected. 

[yankee]

Golly Gosh, your source of advertising is RT, funded by the Kremlin. 

We have several advertisers and member donors and no specific single 'source of funding'. See, when you want to take a poke, you need to actually use facts to do so; or be corrected. 

You could always unleash your attach dog too.

[Tom Cat]

Putin: Russia to respond if Finland joins NATO

https://www.rt.com/news/349185-putin-nato-dialogue-start/

[andrewfi]

Putin: Russia to respond if Finland joins NATO

https://www.rt.com/news/349185-putin-nato-dialogue-start/

Yes, at the moment Russian troops are stationed nowhere near the  Russia /Finland border. If Finland starts acting daft then those troops will be stationed back at the border. My guess is that Finland is coming under severe pressure to join nato but that,  for the time being they'll hold off.

[Tom Cat]

One would think Russia is ready to take over more countries than it has military to occupy.

Finland says it is nearing security deal with US amid concerns over Russia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/22/finland-us-russia-military-security