Information & Chat > No Comment Travel Reports

Ukraine Odyssey 2

(1/2) > >>

leslied:
PROLOG

I wrote this trip report in winter 2002.  I did not managed to remove it from the site before Spencer sold a long forgotten forum.  EC sold the forum to a German guy and he managed the forum into almost zero traffic.  I asked German guy  to remove this trip report on a couple of occasions but he declined to answer.

The events described here have passed into my personal history.  My wife has read this trip report several years ago so no offense can be caused on that account.

Why republish now?  First, I Trust Stuart to respect my copyright on this trip report.  Second, various members have asked "what Happened next" Third, people have asked how Jack helped me find my wife?  These questions are answered in this trip report which I hope you find interesting...

Please remember these events happened a a dozen years ago.  Prices have inflated.  Many of the places mentioned no longer exist.  The human story is still relevant and the mistakes I made are still being made today.  I also feel that although this game has changed, it is still possible to succeed today.  In some ways it is harder, in other ways technology has bridged many gaps.

leslied:
BACKGROUND TO THIS TRIP

ALIA

I had intended to use this November trip to visit my girlfriend Alia in Kiev.  Those of you have read Odyssey 1 will know that my relationship with Alia crashed and burned so that plan never happened... 

I was thoroughly disillusioned and ready to give up, but I had already bought tourist class tickets to Kiev which were not refundable.

PLANNING THE NEXT TRIP

When all this happened I was so dejected.  I got drunk.  I wanted to dig a hole in the backyard, crawl in and pile the earth on top of me.  Trash the air tickets I had bought and cancel my trip.  Then I had some long phone conversations with forum members.  I would cure my depression by trying again.  From my last trip I knew that finding someone on a visit many trip is a numbers game.  Tumbling dice.  You can meet your future wife on the first day or go zero for trip.  My attitude was wrong last time too.  I was determined to find a match.  This warped my judgment, I made some awful decisions.  I also confused my annual vacation with a trip to find a wife.  The two are separate enterprises.  I decided that doing a trip on a “beer budget” was the way to go.  My free spending on the last trip had been my downfall.  This next trip would not be a vacation.  It would be a serious search to find my future wife.

Now I have a real problem.  My air tickets give me just two weeks to set everything up.  I contacted Jack Bragg and discussed my ideas.  There is no time to set up a WMVM plan.  I will really struggle to select ladies and set up many meetings in the time remaining.  An idea is born.  I send my photos and profile (in Russian) to Jack.  I also send him a detailed description of the type of lady I am looking for.  He will pass my photos, profile and requirements to his partner agencies.

I will let the ladies choose me!! 

If a lady wants to see me, the agency must ensure she meets my search requirements.  Blind dates will be organized with eligible ladies. There is no time to organize a city by city travel plan.  It will depend on the number of blind dates each agency comes up with.  Kiev is a certainty, every where else is not.  It all depends on the number of eligible ladies who want to see me in each city.  This means that travel plans cannot be finalized until I am actually in Ukraine. I also want some flexibility. If I meet a nice lady I want to stay a little longer to build the relationship. Jack and I agree guidelines for this.  Even if I find a lady in Kiev on day one,  I will still go to the other cities, though I have the option of shortening my stay there.  I decide to go for it and the adventure begins…..

leslied:
INTRODUCTION

Jack Bragg helped me organize this trip on short notice.  He helped me realize my plans for this trip.  His services were excellent.  He coordinated the services of three dating agencies and the discounts he negotiated on their normal charges more than covered his consultation fee. We only agreed the cities I would visit the day before my departure.  His staff in Kiev, Galina and Ivan, were very friendly and helpful. They really went the “extra mile” to look after me.  Galina also coordinated the dating agencies facilitating the flexibility in travel planning which underpinned this trip.  Jack also organized apartments for me in Kiev. Both were in downtown in great locations.  They were well furnished and equipped.  They were also reasonably priced ($60 a day). 

Sadly Jack has passed on.

The fact that no one has moved into his niche says much about the decline of the MOB business...

Of the Agencies I used only one remains in business:

The owner Valentina is a very classy lady.  She really took a personal interest in me.  She has become my friend.  Her agency is small but completely honest.  It provides efficient personal service.  Vinnitsa is a small city on the Ukraine dating scene. Click below -

http://www.ladyorchid.com/

2015 Update

Valentina is still in business after more than a dozen years.  This says a lot.  You won't find picture galleries stuffed with model hot girls girls - just regular women who have hopes of a better life.  My wife knew Valentina's then partner - Natasha personally.  I met my wife on a personal recommendation from Natasha...


INTERPRETERS.

I used the interpreters provided by Jack and the partner agencies.  The cost was reasonable - $5 per hour.  The interpreters were all college students.  Their language skills were OK.  I am quite experienced in the Ukraine dating scene now, so I did not need personal advice.  If you are new to the dating scene, I think you would be better off employing a qualified linguist who has experience in the dating scene.  This will increase costs by about $500 for a two week trip, but this is money well spent. You cannot expect personal advice from a college kid!  The agencies make a considerable portion of their profits by using students as interpreters.  My guess is that they are paid around $1 per hour.  I run a business myself and have no problem with making a profit.  Many agencies in Ukraine are now insisting you use their interpreters.  The real reason behind this policy is profit related.  If you hire your own interpreter expect some increase in the price of other dating services in compensation.

DATING SERVICES

First dates will be held in a café.  One hour is scheduled for each meeting.  There will be a half hour gap between meetings.  We try to ensure that the next lady does not turn up before the last one has left.  We succeed most of the time in this.  I pay $5 to the agency for each first meeting.  I end up spending a lot of time sitting in cafes talking to ladies.  I met 35 ladies in three cities!  The second meeting is a proper date.  I pay the agency $15 for each second meeting.  After that point it will be the lady and me, with an interpreter if necessary.

TRIP COST BREAKDOWN.

Jack Bragg Consultation fee            250
International travel and pick ups         690
Apartment Costs Kiev, Dnepr and Vinnitsa   700
Agency costs Kiev                  210
Agency costs Dnepr                  160
Agency Costs Vinnitsa               290
Internal travel                       25
Mobile Phone (bought one)            125
English Lessons                  100
Spending Money !!                  360

TOTAL TRIP COST   $2900

The Agency service bill worked out  to $70 a day, very reasonable for the high level of services provided.   Accommodation  averaged $50 a night – Cheap. Spending money was very low - just $25 a day.  This really was a “beer budget”  trip!   In summer I saw 23 ladies and spent $6000.  This time I saw 35 and spent half that! 

2015 update  I still think you could do a trip like this for $5000

TRIP REPORT

I don’t want to bore the members of this board by reporting everything that happened.  When you do 35 first dates in two weeks, most of them leave no lasting impression.  You know the story.  Met “A” Yada, Yada, Yada.  No chemistry.  Never saw her again.  The majority of my first meetings went like this.  It is inevitable when you use this strategy. I spent an awful lot of time in cafes chatting to ladies.  At times this was boring.  I did not have time to see the sites.

WMVM improves the success rate of these first meetings a lot.  You have already screened out a lot of ladies by mutual selection and writing. If you have time this approach is better in my view. 

I am now very good at these first meetings.  Practice makes perfect!  Some of the ladies were not.  They were so shy and gawky that I could not get them to open up and chat naturally.  I often ended these meetings prematurely to prevent further embarrassment.  Maybe I missed some nice ladies by doing this, but on a visit many trip you cannot waste time on shrinking violets…  At the other end of the spectrum Jack’s people did a great job of screening out the professional daters and Green Card Girl’s.  I only met two. 

So it will be like last time.  I will tell you about “the good, the bad and the funny” !!!

leslied:
DATING STRATEGY

My dating strategy has evolved considerably since my last trip.  I scored myself at 5 out of 10 then.  Reckon I have progressed to a 7 now.  I have learned to “ride the bike”.  The most important change is in me.  I have the self confidence that comes only from practice.  Self confidence is a powerful pheromone.  The Ukrainian ladies sixth sense absorbs it immediately. A guy that is self confident is more desirable.  By the end of this trip I had face to face dated a total 91 Russian and Ukrainian ladies.  A couple of agency staff on this trip described me as a professional dater!!   

So what else has changed?  I have absorbed the forum archives.    The converse in reverse strategy works.  You must stop at the first red flag.  Short first dates are a good strategy.  Don’t allow the ladies to take you for a ride.  Stay in control, don’t allow yourself to be ripped off.  There is no need to be rude.  Just say no. 

*Converse in reverse strategy.  When you are regular dating you make small talk first movies, music etc. because you have time to move onto the important stuff later.  On a visit many trip you skip the small talk and move to major issues like kids and jobs.  Ask the important stuff first.

This strategy applies to a Visit Many trip.  I have never clicked on a WOVO deal.  If I had I am sure we would have been bonking like bunnies within a couple of days!

Here is my strategy:

You must answer the following questions:

1.   Do you like her?
2.   Does she like you? 
3.   Is there mutual chemistry?
4.   Does this lady meet your requirements?
5.   Any Red Flags in her character or situation?
6.   Do you share the same vision of the future?
7.   Logically could you match with this lady?
 
The first date is a simple meeting for about an hour in a café over juice or coffee and perhaps a dessert for her.  Just be yourself, relax.  Be open and honest.  Use your dating skills to put the lady at ease, this facilitates conversation. You must listen.  Answer her questions straightforwardly, be self revealing but not overly so.  The lady will have her own strategy but you must maintain control of the situation.  You must call the shots.

Answering question one is easy.  I know whether I like a lady in 10 – 15 mins.  If I don’t – well an hour is too long but I must go through the motions and be polite.  I end the meeting as soon as it is practicable.

Does the lady like me???  This question obsesses many board members.  Some guys spend whole vacations trying to figure out if a lady likes them!!  The answer is simple.  Russian and Ukrainian women are very smart. They have been trained by Russian and Ukrainian men.  They know what they must do.  If she likes you she will show it!  Period.  If she has not done this at the end of one hour, stop trying to melt the ice maiden.  Move on.  At the other end of the spectrum you get the professional daters.  They always appear to like you but it is an act!  These ladies are easy to spot. 

Positive answers to the first two questions ignites chemistry!  This is the spark that begins everything.  80% of the time this will happen in the first hour.  If the sparks are not flying by the end of the second date, move on.  Persistence just wastes your time and money.

You will get partial answers to questions 4 – 7 in the first hour.  If you discover any Red Flags in that first hour, STOP.   Only schedule a second date if you like each other, there is some chemistry and no Red Flags.

The second date is usually over a meal but it could be a walk in the park in summer.  Choose somewhere where you can talk.  Make sure you always choose the venue.  This way you don’t get taken for a ride.  Don’t be extravagant.  A small gift of flowers (say 5 roses or lilies) is a good idea and costs less than $10.  You cannot buy her affection, so don’t begin by trying!!

You will be working on getting better answers to questions 4 – 7.  She will also be interviewing you.  RW and UW have a remarkable sixth sense.  They are very hard to bullshit, so don’t try!  No boasting about your career or possessions either. This is seen as a turn off by decent women.  If the mutual interview process proceeds smoothly the chemistry between you will grow.  Again at the first definite Red Flag and you must stop.  By the end of the second date you should both have good working answers to your questions. If you are happy with one another and the chemistry is good, expect a goodnight smacker and organize a third date.  Repeat - any problems and you should stop.  Move on.

On dates 3 to 5 you are getting to know an individual woman.  Do not play the suitor, it hands control to her.  If you act like a puppy she will treat you like her lap dog!  Limit presents to flowers and chocolates.  No lavish dates in fancy restaurants, stick to simple meals in cafes. Maintain control of where you go and how much you spend.  The good time girls hate this, they are not getting what they want.  Concentrate on conversation, sweep the ladies off their feet with your personality not your billfold.  Build the relationship.  The lady has to like you for yourself, not the money you are spending.  Don’t waste money on vacation trips or other expensive activities.  Let the lady come to you. 

The dating process must go perfectly, first red flag and you stop.  Forget any “investment” of time and effort you have made.   Move to the next lady.  To continue past Red Flags is delusional and a complete waste of time and money.  You are on a Visit Many trip, you are dating lots of women.  Move your focus to someone else.

Somewhere between dates 3 and 5 you are going to  :censored:  each others brains out!!  I do not date religious people, so for me no sex by fifth date is finished.  The women know they are competing for your affection.  They understand the time constraints imposed by a trip.  If she wants you she will give herself to you.  Then you will understand why the guys who know are crazy about Russian and Ukrainian women!!

Never buy a woman expensive presents before you have had sex.  It is essential that the lady gives herself because she wants you.  Bad women want presents!  The unmistakable sign is bartering for sex.  If this happens, you have two options.  Dump or play with her.  Essentially this depends on how much you want to  :censored:  her.  If you decide to play, take her shopping.  Find out the parameters of her greed.  Buy her something relatively cheap and tell her she will have to be very, very nice to you if she wants that expensive present.  She will  :censored:  your brains out on the prospect of a fur coat.  Of course you never buy her anything, you dump her. (Thanks Jack)

Sex is an invitation to a relationship.  Bad sex rarely gets much better.  You learn so much about a woman by the way she  :censored: s you.  If you like what you find, begin a relationship.  If you are not completely happy, move on.  You do not have to settle for second best. 

Nothing can prepare you for the experience of your first Visit Many trip.  It is an emotional roller coaster.  The most concentrated dating experience of your life.  You will be running first dates, seeing ladies further along in the dating process and maybe  :censored: ing one or two.  ALL AT THE SAME TIME.   This is not good for your emotional sanity.   It can lead to you making lousy decisions.  You have to try to keep thinking straight with your head not your balls!!  Don’t try to match too soon.  Ignore the time pressure, you can always visit again.  You do not have to match with Eeny, Meeny, Miney, or Mo.  As long as you come home with some real emotional connections the trip has been a success.

Try to play this game with kindness and respect the ladies you are dating.  They are real people and you can easily hurt them.  The competitive situation and the narrow time window often puts the women under pressure to make decisions before they are ready.  It is cruel to increase this pressure, let the lady come to you.  Do not abuse the power that you are given by this situation.  Remember you are searching for your future wife, you are not on a sex tour.  If the situation has your balls swelled like ripe grapefruit, haul your ass to a disco or club.  Unless you are 150 Kg+, have a hump and a limp like Quasimodo you won’t have a problem getting yourself laid.  Many of the disco girls  :censored:  for a living so indulging your passions here does no harm.  It can help clear your head.  It takes your balls out of the decision making loop.  If you are on a sex tour why pay expensive dating agency fees and go through this complex time consuming process.  Just go to discos and clubs.  It is cheaper and much kinder to the decent women who are looking for a husband.

If you succeed and make a match.  Do not taint the relationship with extravagant gifts.  I made this mistake.  English lessons are a good idea in most cases.  Modest gifts are fine.  Don’t assume financial support yet.  When you come home build on what you have created.  Phone and write.  Monitor the situation closely.  Plan an early return trip to visit your lady.  This will be quite cheap.  Good luck.

leslied:
KIEV

My trip begins on Friday afternoon at the Port Authority Bus Station on 42nd Street.  This is a “beer budget” trip, so I take the Grey Line bus to JFK.  No Taxi.  Usual procedures at JFK but the security is tighter.  I am flying direct to Kiev on Uzbekistan Airlines.  The flight leaves on time.  It is a Boeing 767.  The front cabin is almost deserted, coach is maybe 75% full.  Nearly all the passengers are Ukrainian.  The movies are dubbed in Russian!  Uneventful nine hour flight.  I sleep a bit and read.  We arrive in Kiev on time at 10.30am on Saturday morning.  I am through passport control in 10 mins,  I know the procedures at Borispol now.  My case is waiting on the carousel, pick it up fill out a customs declaration form and head for the customs red channel.  No baggage search and 10 mins later I am through the glass doors to find Galina waiting for me.  Taxi transfer to Independence Square, the center of downtown Kiev.  The Balcony of this two room apartment overlooks the square.  It is swish, new hardwood floors, even has a whirlpool bath and satellite TV!  Great value at $60 a night.  Unpack, shower and then get a couple of hours sleep.  I have three dates scheduled for today.  It is snowing today and the square is unusually quiet.  I really like this city.  It has a sophisticated eastern European feel.  If I am lucky enough to marry a Ukraine woman I will buy an apartment in the downtown area.  I could spend my annual vacations here.  Her folks could visit.  One of my fears with Alia was having to go to Kherson every year.  Spending my vacations in a dump like Kherson has absolutely no appeal.  I meet my interpreter, Ivan in the early afternoon.  It is below freezing and the pavement is a skating rink.  I thought Ukraine had salt mines.  We could use some now.  I Cross the street and buy a cell phone ($105 including a Kiev Star account), this is cheaper than renting one and unlike last time I won’t present the phone to my girlfriend when I leave.

We are using Café Etoile for the first date program.  It is just off the square, around the corner from McDonalds.  The first meeting is a no chemistry event.  The second is with an interpreter E. She speaks some English and excellent French an Italian.  We chat in French.  She is immaculately dressed, slender, 165cm tall with long brown hair.  She is 34 years old and  stylishly good looking.  She has traveled.  We have an interesting conversation.  There is chemistry between us.  I will see this lady again.   The third date is another non event.  I am bone tired and jet lagged now so I return early to my apartment and crash out.  Sleep for 10 hours.

On Sunday morning I go for a walk to blow the cobwebs away.  It is freezing cold so I wander into the mall under Independence Square.  This place is totally American in style, the basement food hall has both a McDonalds and a Baskin Robin’s !  Eat a late breakfast and drink a cappuccino at the coffee shop under the glass dome.  It is a good place proper coffee and excellent cakes.  I use this place a lot.  This mall is way expensive by Ukraine standards but the shops are busy.  Some people do have money in Ukraine and this mall is one of  their favorite haunts.  I go to a mini market off the square to buy some groceries and wine then return to the apartment to watch the soccer.  I meet Ivan (Vanya)  at Etoile  at lunchtime.  I have five first dates scheduled for today.  My first date is so nervous and shy that I can achieve nothing with her.  I am nice and polite but relieved when she leaves.  The second date is a no chemistry event.  The third lady is a hedgehog.  She arrives dressed in a black business suite.  She is 165cm tall and overweight.  Though her English is very poor she insists that my interpreter Vanya leaves.  She will not discuss personal things in front of a boy!  With hindsight I should have told her to take a hike.  Instead I waste an hour trying to pacify the porcupine.  I am sure that if I married this woman every day of the rest of my life would be miserable!  This lady did not give up.  She pestered the agency to see me again.  Even sent an e-mail to my hotmail account.  Of course I never contacted her again.

Y walks in to my life wearing a pair of black pants and a white top.  No make up.  No jewelry.  She does not need either.  She is 32 years old, 170cm tall, very slender and moves with “cat like” grace.  Her hair is tinted dark red which is very fashionable at the moment in Ukraine.  She has sea grey eyes and high cheek bones.  She is very pretty.  Within five minutes of conversation the sexual chemistry between us ignites.  Y definitely fancies me.  Absolutely unmistakable.  She starts trying out her English (which is moderately good).  She is giving my interpreter “piss off” looks.  He is too immature to recognize them.  We get into an animated, intimate conversation.  Y is very well educated (Masters Degree) She was the accounting controller for a mobile phone company.  She quit this job because she could not look after her little boy properly and work.  She earned much more than her husband who could not accept that she was going to put her baby first.  Y owned the apartment and she kicked his butt out of there four years ago.  She has not seen him since.  She earns her bread now by renting out a room to a student, making clothes and helping small businesses with their accounts and tax returns.  We share many cultural interests art, classical music even ballet.   Before I realize the time my next date has turned up!  Very embarrassing situation.  I get Vanya to take her to the café next door and have to wind the date up with Y.  She is not happy about this situation.  I pay the bill and we walk out together onto the square.  We stop by the side of McDonalds.  I tell her I will see her again.  I kiss her on the cheek.  She grabs me and gives me a couple of exploratory kisses on the lips.  Then she puts her hands around my head and sticks her tongue down my throat!  She is making certain that I will see her again….

I spend the next forty five minutes apologizing to my next date.  Screw ups happen and you never get a second chance to make a first impression.  I toy with the idea of seeing E or Y for a second date this evening but decide that this would be too eager puppy.  I return to my apartment and watch the TV.  Drink a couple of glasses of wine and turn in early.



MONDAY IN KIEV

I finish my first date program in Kiev today.  I have two dates, one of which is interesting.  N is a slim natural blonde 33 years old.  She is 165 cm tall, stylishly dressed with good make up and jewelry.  She is attractive and speaks very good English.  Within ten minutes of our meeting I have recognized the green card girl….  I decide to have some fun at her expense.  I lead her on.  She is talking about her friends who are already in the USA.  Last year’s foreign holiday.  She is playing with her hair and giving me obvious sexual signals.  I have got to know the staff quite well at Etoile.  The manager is from Slovakia and speaks good English.  One of the Devushkas has been looking at me since yesterday.  My blond is getting frustrated.  I am ignoring her come on signals.  Then she goes over the top and tells me many men find her very attractive.  I reply that she is fading, getting old!  Just then the previously mentioned Devushka comes over.  I say we don’t want anything else but she is very pretty (and she definitely is!).  Then I ask her when she is finishing her shift…….  My blonde’s jaw has just hit the table!!  She starts having a go at me.  I tell her she has GCG tattooed on her forehead.  She pretends not to understand.  I tell her bluntly that any man with half a brain can see she is a green card girl.  She is furious now.  “Give me 20 Hrivna for a taxi!”  “No” I reply.  She storms out of the café.  The manager comes over, laughing.  Stick to the redhead from yesterday is his advice….

I meet up with Galina in the square.  I joke with her about the blond I have just met and we go to buy tickets for tomorrow nights train to Dnepretrovosk.  Galina is astonished that I want just a single bunk in a second class.  Why not first class or a whole compartment in second?  She has not had any Americans who want to travel like this before.  I tell her the only thing I am worried about is if the other guys in the compartment hit the Vodka.  If they do this you have to join in!  I want to meet Y tonight, maybe a concert and then dinner.  Galina says she will organize this.  A concert might be difficult on a Monday, but she knows this great Ukrainian restaurant with live gypsy music.  Later I meet up with Vanya, he suggests a Classical music recital being held at a church.  This sounds fine to me.  We go to the internet café at the central post office.  I post an update on RWG.  Vanya is a really nice young man.  Hard working, highly educated and he does not drink alcohol.  He 20 years old and handsome.  I am very surprised when he tells me he has no girlfriend.  This lad is a catch.  We talk about Russian literature to pass the time until tonight’s date.  I buy Y 5 long stemmed roses.  This is the only gift I gave her till the end of the trip.  We meet outside Etoile. The snow is melting slowly now but it is still very cold.  Y would love to go to the concert.  I had called her tastes correctly.  We taxi over to the church.  The seats cost 80 cents each!!  The church is old and beautiful.  There is a brass quintet playing tonight.  They start with classical favorites like Handel’s Water Music and finish with Gershwin.  The standard is awesome.  Cultural events like this are always of a very high standard in FSU.  We taxi over to the restaurant.  They specialize in food from the Stan’s We eat the best Shashlik I have ever tasted.  It is brought to the table splashed with Vodka, then lit. The gypsy band is authentic.  A couple of the guys have partially shaved heads and pigtails. This place has a wonderful romantic atmosphere.  Y and are deep in conversation.  Exchanging details of our lives, talking about our families.  Y was a gymnast at school.  She admits to be a tomboy when she was younger.  We share interests like camping, fishing and shooting.  She really loved her father.  He died at my age when she was eleven years old.  Her mom is Polish and there relationship is not good.  Y is including Vanya in our conversation as a person not just as an interpreter.  She is asking him quite a lot of questions.  At the time I cannot understand why.  Time flies by.  The restaurant is closing up around us so we have to leave in a taxi.  Y invites me to her place for dinner the next day.  This is a key event and we both know it.  She wants me to meet her little boy.  A single taxi drops us off in turn, me last.  The taxi driver tries a typical overcharging stunt when I get home.  I just get out of the cab and start walking.  He tries to intimidate me.  There is a heated argument in Russian.  I eventually pay him half of the demanded fare.  What is it with these guys?

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page