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Author Topic: American healthcare and taxes  (Read 162 times)

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Online yankee

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American healthcare and taxes
« on: August 08, 2014, 05:21:31 PM »


Further, even if a woman is proud of being morbidly obese (which I don't think is the case, I think the issue is more of others' perceptions), why would it be "good" if she died?


Because society Will bear the cost of her inability to control herself.

if a drug addict is active, we try to put him in rehab because his addiction will kill him and most likely hurt society.  Why is obesity treated differently?
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Offline Halo

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 05:27:23 PM »
We don't force individuals to seek treatment for drug addiction.  We suggest it.  We encourage it.   But individuals can't be forced to seek treatment, and, in any event, forced treatments don't work.  Anyone with experience with serious addiction (sadly, I have that experience, but my family addict beat the addiction), knows that an addict needs to want to change. 

Personally, I believe alcohol and drug addiction are rather prevalent in society, and are far more detrimental to society, in general, than is obesity.

If society is paying the cost of treating fat people, they should be encouraging fat.  Old people are far more costly, in terms of health care dollars, than are younger individuals, including the rotund who will keel over at a younger age.

Offline shakespear

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 05:35:32 PM »
Because society Will bear the cost of her inability to control herself.

if a drug addict is active, we try to put him in rehab because his addiction will kill him and most likely hurt society.  Why is obesity treated differently?

I am certainly by medical standards "morbidly obese". 

Because of the new tax laws dectated by "Obamacare" I am paying an additional 1% Medicare tax on approximately 33% of my annual income.  I am also paying and additional 1.25% Medicare tax on all interest, dividend and capital gains income.

Far as I'm concerned, I'm paying my fair share "pal".
"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun" - Katharine Hepburn


Online yankee

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 03:58:06 AM »
Because society Will bear the cost of her inability to control herself.

if a drug addict is active, we try to put him in rehab because his addiction will kill him and most likely hurt society.  Why is obesity treated differently?

I am certainly by medical standards "morbidly obese". 

Because of the new tax laws dectated by "Obamacare" I am paying an additional 1% Medicare tax on approximately 33% of my annual income.  I am also paying and additional 1.25% Medicare tax on all interest, dividend and capital gains income.

Far as I'm concerned, I'm paying my fair share "pal".

First I am not your "pal".  I too am overweight but not "morbidly obese".  If I was I would be trying harder to reduce my weight.  By most medical standards (you like to used this phrase) I am healthy.  Hate me if you wish but I think you should be paying 100% medicare tax on your annual income.  I don't agree with the tax on all interest, dividend and capital gains income.

but then you are being penalized for making a lot of money (greater than $300K?).  Unless you are 65 or older you probably also have medical insurance that you pay for.
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Offline tzwd72

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2014, 06:45:36 AM »
meh...obese people are going to continue to be obese if that's what they choose.  Lifestyle, environment, addiction, medical (ahem..ahem) like gall bladder surgery, etc can all be tackled.  I think... right?  Maybe?  I really don't know but it could work for the majority of obese people WHEN they choose to handle it.

If they don't choose to change and are content... well... as Yankee said.... when these people start hitting the 50's, 60's and highly doubtful 70's they are going to be miserable with all the complications and surgeries that are going to be possibly needed.

As for medical coverage... I can't comment on that as I'm a smoker.  But I do realize the stress smoking puts on our medical system up here and I will be getting rid of that habit soon... after my weight control.... man I'm going to miss "cancer sticks"...

J
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Offline shakespear

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 02:22:15 PM »
First I am not your "pal". 

Ah, so you picked up on my sarcasm . . . . . . . . .


Hate me if you wish but I think you should be paying 100% medicare tax on your annual income.

Are you suggesting that I pay 100% of what I earn into the medicare program? 

If so you are a progressive liberal idiot. 

I currently pay what everybody else pays (1.45% by both myself and my employer) and then pay an ADDITIONAL 1% on 1/3 of my annual income.   


but then you are being penalized for making a lot of money (greater than $300K?).  Unless you are 65 or older you probably also have medical insurance that you pay for.

My employer provides a "Cadillac" health care program so I am about to get penalized for that in 2015 due to the illegal Obama Executive Orders which change the implementation of the law for political reasons.

And yes, I am a victim of the Obama Wealth-Redistribution Socialist government handout program.   
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Offline Mikeav8r

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 04:06:29 PM »
As for medical coverage... I can't comment on that as I'm a smoker.  But I do realize the stress smoking puts on our medical system up here and I will be getting rid of that habit soon... after my weight control.... man I'm going to miss "cancer sticks"...

You should work on them at the same time.  Once you quit smoking, you will again have issues with weight control.  You will be able to taste food again, no longer have the appetite suppressant that smoking now provides, and you will need something to do with your hands when not holding a cigarette (i.e. eating).

I smoked for 16 years and was in great shape (6'0 x 185).  I gained 50 pounds within 2 years after I quit and it was a real struggle to get it under control.  Many years later I am better off but still need a little work.  Of course, having to deal with my wife having breast cancer and losing a great job after 9/11 (lost 2 people I knew in that as well) at the same time didn't help matters much.

Soooo...a change in lifestyle (eating habits and exercise) and quitting the cancer sticks at the same time would probably be a better bet.  Just my opinion of course.  tiphat
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Online yankee

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2014, 04:07:33 PM »
First I am not your "pal". 

Ah, so you picked up on my sarcasm . . . . . . . . .


Hate me if you wish but I think you should be paying 100% medicare tax on your annual income.

Are you suggesting that I pay 100% of what I earn into the medicare program? 

If so you are a progressive liberal idiot. 

I currently pay what everybody else pays (1.45% by both myself and my employer) and then pay an ADDITIONAL 1% on 1/3 of my annual income.   


but then you are being penalized for making a lot of money (greater than $300K?).  Unless you are 65 or older you probably also have medical insurance that you pay for.

My employer provides a "Cadillac" health care program so I am about to get penalized for that in 2015 due to the illegal Obama Executive Orders which change the implementation of the law for political reasons.

And yes, I am a victim of the Obama Wealth-Redistribution Socialist government handout program.   

I maybe a progressive liberal but I am no idiot.   I did misunderstand the additional 1% so I retract that statement.  I was thinking of the SS deduction.

Perhaps you want to return to the percentages that were in the 50's?  Someone has to pay for all of these wars we enjoy. 
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Offline shakespear

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2014, 03:59:33 PM »
Perhaps you want to return to the percentages that were in the 50's?  Someone has to pay for all of these wars we enjoy.

I'd prefer to have a corporate income tax rate that wasn't the highest in the world, forcing US companies to take advantage of legal tax laws to remain competitive worldwide and reduce their tax liabilities by moving their headquarters overseas and remove the highest paying jobs from the United States. 

Pay to wage them "over there" now or wait and pay dearly when they bring the war to the USA like they did on 7-11. 

Anyone with common sense would prefer the former.
"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun" - Katharine Hepburn

Online yankee

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2014, 04:06:45 PM »
Perhaps you want to return to the percentages that were in the 50's?  Someone has to pay for all of these wars we enjoy.

I'd prefer to have a corporate income tax rate that wasn't the highest in the world, forcing US companies to take advantage of legal tax laws to remain competitive worldwide and reduce their tax liabilities by moving their headquarters overseas and remove the highest paying jobs from the United States. 

Pay to wage them "over there" now or wait and pay dearly when they bring the war to the USA like they did on 7-11. 

Anyone with common sense would prefer the former.


Someone has to pay for our thurst to fight wars. 
Who do you suggest?
What is worse than not being able to get what you don't even want?

Offline Larry

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2014, 04:16:30 PM »
Perhaps you want to return to the percentages that were in the 50's?  Someone has to pay for all of these wars we enjoy.

I'd prefer to have a corporate income tax rate that wasn't the highest in the world, forcing US companies to take advantage of legal tax laws to remain competitive worldwide and reduce their tax liabilities by moving their headquarters overseas and remove the highest paying jobs from the United States. 

Pay to wage them "over there" now or wait and pay dearly when they bring the war to the USA like they did on 7-11. 

I'd prefer a lower corporate income tax too.

But I hope they don't bring the war to 7-11.  We like their slurpees.  :)

Offline Halo

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2014, 04:24:39 PM »
Other Western countries can have lower corporate tax rates because of other taxes they impose - consumption taxes (VAT/GST), high taxes on alcohol, cigarettes, and of course, gasoline.  There are many more, but those are the ones that are off the top of my head.

Offline shakespear

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2014, 04:48:31 PM »
Someone has to pay for our thirst to fight wars. 
Who do you suggest?

A bit off topic, but since you asked -

1)  Allow US corporations who have isolated money in foreign countries to avoid our punitive corporate tax rates to repatriate those earnings with a 10% tax rate so long as they do it before the 2016 tax year.  That would bring over $2.1 TRILLION back into the US economy (not to mention the $210 billion tax revenue) and spur the biggest economic growth period in the history of our country. 

2)  Remove all restrictions on oil and gas exploration.  Close down the EPA.  Open the Keystone Pipeline.  South Dakota leads the USA in gas and oil development and has the lowest unemployment rate IN SPITE of the Obama Administration, not because of it.  We can literally drill our way to prosperity if the socialists will just get out of the way. 

3)  A government infrastructure repair program can be beneficial.  What is not needed is requiring the work to be done by union labor or giving preferential bid treatment to companies that use union labor.  The WPA was one of the few programs that FDR implemented that was long term successful and should be imitated.  Low bidder wins the contract.  Very strict monitoring to make sure the contract specs are being delivered. 

4)  Strictly enforce all immigration laws on the books today.  Time to stop spending taxpayer money supporting people who are in the United States illegally. 

5)  Require people to work to receive public benefits.  I've got no problem helping an individual or a married couple with both people working 40 hours per week with food stamps or subsidized housing and child care to bring their net total income to a reasonable level.  At least they're being productive and helping the economy grow and not a lamprey sucking the life out of the US taxpayer.

6)  Close down the IRS.  Give all their employees pink slips.  Go to a individual and corporate flat tax without extensive deductions.  Make the rules 20 pages long instead of 74,000 pages long.  50% of people in the USA pay ZERO federal income taxes.  NOBODY that benefits from government provided services (roads, courts, prisons, parks, libraries) should have a zero income tax bill.   

7)  Repeal Obamacare in total.

8)  Depoliticize the various Inspector General offices and direct them to uncover and eliminate all waste fraud and abuse by our federal government.  That alone could reduce government spending by 25%. 

These eight points would get us off to a good start anyway.             
"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun" - Katharine Hepburn

Offline shakespear

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2014, 04:49:54 PM »
I'd prefer a lower corporate income tax too.

But I hope they don't bring the war to 7-11.  We like their slurpees.  :)

Touche'  Sorry about that.

Of course I meant 9-11
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Offline Larry

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2014, 04:51:43 PM »
I'd prefer a lower corporate income tax too.

But I hope they don't bring the war to 7-11.  We like their slurpees.  :)

Touche'  Sorry about that.

Of course I meant 9-11

I knew you meant 9-11.  I just couldn't resist a bit of fun. :)  With Vinny gone the forum could use all the levity it can get.

Offline cufflinks

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2014, 05:35:07 PM »
What happened to V2 crushed by a British Flubber Lubber woman?

Seriously V2 had a great sense of humour and will be missed.

Offline Mikeav8r

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2014, 10:58:51 AM »
^^^^^^^^^
What's Shakespear said.

Yeah Vinn is sorely missed.
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Offline tzwd72

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2014, 05:05:22 PM »
Other Western countries can have lower corporate tax rates because of other taxes they impose - consumption taxes (VAT/GST), high taxes on alcohol, cigarettes, and of course, gasoline.  There are many more, but those are the ones that are off the top of my head.

GST....best fricking pyramid scheme our Government created....tax upon the tax that has been taxed with the tax after the tax....

J
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Online Dogsoldier

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2014, 05:09:30 PM »
Other Western countries can have lower corporate tax rates because of other taxes they impose - consumption taxes (VAT/GST), high taxes on alcohol, cigarettes, and of course, gasoline.  There are many more, but those are the ones that are off the top of my head.

GST....best fricking pyramid scheme our Government created....tax upon the tax that has been taxed with the tax after the tax....

J

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Offline WestCoast

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2014, 08:33:27 PM »
^^^^^^^^^
What's Shakespear said.

Yeah Vinn is sorely missed.

Where is Vinny? Don't tell me he's giving up on his search for love?
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Offline bluewater7

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 02:28:07 AM »
Ron Paul is my President. ;)

Someone has to pay for our thirst to fight wars. 
Who do you suggest?

A bit off topic, but since you asked -

1)  Allow US corporations who have isolated money in foreign countries to avoid our punitive corporate tax rates to repatriate those earnings with a 10% tax rate so long as they do it before the 2016 tax year.  That would bring over $2.1 TRILLION back into the US economy (not to mention the $210 billion tax revenue) and spur the biggest economic growth period in the history of our country. 

2)  Remove all restrictions on oil and gas exploration.  Close down the EPA.  Open the Keystone Pipeline.  South Dakota leads the USA in gas and oil development and has the lowest unemployment rate IN SPITE of the Obama Administration, not because of it.  We can literally drill our way to prosperity if the socialists will just get out of the way. 

3)  A government infrastructure repair program can be beneficial.  What is not needed is requiring the work to be done by union labor or giving preferential bid treatment to companies that use union labor.  The WPA was one of the few programs that FDR implemented that was long term successful and should be imitated.  Low bidder wins the contract.  Very strict monitoring to make sure the contract specs are being delivered. 

4)  Strictly enforce all immigration laws on the books today.  Time to stop spending taxpayer money supporting people who are in the United States illegally. 

5)  Require people to work to receive public benefits.  I've got no problem helping an individual or a married couple with both people working 40 hours per week with food stamps or subsidized housing and child care to bring their net total income to a reasonable level.  At least they're being productive and helping the economy grow and not a lamprey sucking the life out of the US taxpayer.

6)  Close down the IRS.  Give all their employees pink slips.  Go to a individual and corporate flat tax without extensive deductions.  Make the rules 20 pages long instead of 74,000 pages long.  50% of people in the USA pay ZERO federal income taxes.  NOBODY that benefits from government provided services (roads, courts, prisons, parks, libraries) should have a zero income tax bill.   

7)  Repeal Obamacare in total.

8)  Depoliticize the various Inspector General offices and direct them to uncover and eliminate all waste fraud and abuse by our federal government.  That alone could reduce government spending by 25%. 

These eight points would get us off to a good start anyway.             

Online andrewfi

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 02:59:45 AM »
Shakespear, an interesting list but sadly it'd not do almost anything to deal with the problems faced by the US and the people who live within its borders.

The real issue is spending too much money.

Reducing what you see as inefficiencies would do nothing.

Here's the ineffable truth: You have a government, that government does stuff, at least nominally, on your behalf. Problem is that you guys cant afford it. One way or another that stuff must be paid for so although the form of tax might change and you might change the tax base slightly the bottom line is that the tax will be paid.

As you probably already know, the reason that poor people don't pay much tax is because they are, well, poor. If you made them pay tax then there'd be all sorts of problems but the revenue would be tiny.

In Estonia we have a flat rate tax system with few exemptions and loopholes but there is still a lower level below which people do not pay tax. Just as there is for rich people the Laffer Curve which shows that past a maximum tax rate of around 80% there is no increased revenue from increased taxation so at the lower end the same kind of curve exists. At a point people say 'it is not worth working' or they go on the black economy. That too is an elasticity curve and can be calculated for a given market (group of people).

So, what you guys need to do is to start running a proper health service working fro the premise that the nation's health is a common benefit where employers gain from having a healthy workforce in terms of increased productivity, individuals gain from their own good health from their personal productivity and government pays for the service from the accrued tax receipts generated by the increase in health and the ongoing maintenance of that health.

Next stop with the silly adventurism with an army you can't afford whose function is the enrichment of the people who make the stuff the armed forces use and who benefit when usage increases (during 'war').

This ain't difficult except for the cognitive dissonance that is bought on in folks like you who like to think they have a chance of being rich but who in truth will never part of that group. It is not until outsiders see what the US selectorate vote for that we understand that the saying that 'turkeys don't vote for Christmas' is untrue - at least for the poor people in the US! Victims of a multi-generational con trick.
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Offline cufflinks

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2014, 10:39:00 AM »
Shakespear, an interesting list but sadly it'd not do almost anything to deal with the problems faced by the US and the people who live within its borders.

The real issue is spending too much money.

Reducing what you see as inefficiencies would do nothing.

Here's the ineffable truth: You have a government, that government does stuff, at least nominally, on your behalf. Problem is that you guys cant afford it. One way or another that stuff must be paid for so although the form of tax might change and you might change the tax base slightly the bottom line is that the tax will be paid.

As you probably already know, the reason that poor people don't pay much tax is because they are, well, poor. If you made them pay tax then there'd be all sorts of problems but the revenue would be tiny.

In Estonia we have a flat rate tax system with few exemptions and loopholes but there is still a lower level below which people do not pay tax. Just as there is for rich people the Laffer Curve which shows that past a maximum tax rate of around 80% there is no increased revenue from increased taxation so at the lower end the same kind of curve exists. At a point people say 'it is not worth working' or they go on the black economy. That too is an elasticity curve and can be calculated for a given market (group of people).

So, what you guys need to do is to start running a proper health service working fro the premise that the nation's health is a common benefit where employers gain from having a healthy workforce in terms of increased productivity, individuals gain from their own good health from their personal productivity and government pays for the service from the accrued tax receipts generated by the increase in health and the ongoing maintenance of that health.

Next stop with the silly adventurism with an army you can't afford whose function is the enrichment of the people who make the stuff the armed forces use and who benefit when usage increases (during 'war').

This ain't difficult except for the cognitive dissonance that is bought on in folks like you who like to think they have a chance of being rich but who in truth will never part of that group. It is not until outsiders see what the US selectorate vote for that we understand that the saying that 'turkeys don't vote for Christmas' is untrue - at least for the poor people in the US! Victims of a multi-generational con trick.

Erratta;  The USA is a Monetarily Sovereign Nation (Like RU UK CN CA JP etc etc but NOT the EU)  and in an electronic money age can pay any bill or debt of any size by issuing commands in the treasury or various agencies or GSE's computers to issue said payments most now electronic transfers and not even paper checks - saves trees and ink.

Please refer to the Experts in Monetary Sovereignty and Modern Monetary Theory and Practice
http://cas.umkc.edu/economics/

UMKC Economics department for MMT and Roger Malcolm Mitchell et. al. regarding Monetary Sovereignty and how it works...


http://mythfighter.com/2014/08/27/the-euro-cancer-grows-the-dunce-cap-award-returns/
http://mythfighter.com/2014/08/30/more-whoda-thunk-europes-austerity-doesnt-work-either/
http://mythfighter.com/2014/09/04/two-more-examples-of-your-brain-being-washed-about-taxes-and-bribery/
http://mythfighter.com/2014/09/04/two-more-examples-of-your-brain-being-washed-about-taxes-and-bribery/

Andrew with all due respect your are espousing economics from the days of the Great British Empire with Gold, Sterling, Tea and Opium the primary means of exchange... you sir are a fossil remnant of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

May I suggest the following for your edification:

Twitter: @rodgermitchell; Search #monetarysovereignty
Facebook: Rodger Malcolm Mitchell

Mitchell’s laws:
●The more federal budgets are cut and taxes increased, the weaker an economy becomes.
●Austerity is the government’s method for widening the gap between rich and poor, which ultimately leads to civil disorder.
●Until the 99% understand the need for federal deficits, the upper 1% will rule.
●To survive long term, a monetarily non-sovereign government must have a positive balance of payments.
●Those, who do not understand the differences between Monetary Sovereignty and monetary non-sovereignty, do not understand economics.
●The penalty for ignorance is slavery.
●Everything in economics devolves to motive, and the motive is the gap.
=========================================================

Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
Monetary Sovereignty

===================================================================================
Ten Steps to Prosperity:
1.   Eliminate FICA (Click here)
2.   Federally funded Medicare — parts A, B & D plus long term nursing care — for everyone (Click here)
3.   Provide an Economic Bonus to every man, woman and child in America, and/or every state a per capita Economic Bonus. (Click here) Or institute a reverse income tax.
4.   Free education (including post-grad) for everyone. Click here
5.   Salary for attending school (Click here)
6.   Eliminate corporate taxes (Click here)
7.   Increase the standard income tax deduction annually
8. Tax the very rich (.1%) more, with higher, progressive tax rates on all forms of income. (Click here)
9. Federal ownership of all banks (Click here)
10.   Increase federal spending on the myriad initiatives that benefit America’s 99% (Click here)

—–

10 Steps to Economic Misery: (Click here:)
1. Maintain or increase the FICA tax..
2. Spread the myth Social Security, Medicare and the U.S. government are insolvent.
3. Cut federal employment in the military, post office, other federal agencies.
4. Broaden the income tax base so more lower income people will pay.
5. Cut financial assistance to the states.
6. Spread the myth federal taxes pay for federal spending.
7. Allow banks to trade for their own accounts; save them when their investments go sour.
8. Never prosecute any banker for criminal activity.
9. Nominate arch conservatives to the Supreme Court.
10. Reduce the federal deficit and debt

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2014, 10:51:42 AM »
As for a proper health service we now have a corrupt political system - If we were to implement a proper free markets systems of open and national competition versus lobbyist influenced anti competitiveness laws (It is illegal for Medicaid (States) and Medicare (Federal) to negotiate volume discount pricing on meds - only the VA is allowed to negotiate volume discount meds prices like the country of Canada does - so we have medical tourism buses going to Canada to allow our fixed income seniors to buy their meds there...  WTF

Free market competition without lobbyist and anti competition Forbes list Billionaires who implement 1,000s of protective barriers is almost always the best way to run a railroad and a nation.

Unlike this fine example of anti constitutional law enforcement... and we have the gumption to call out Russia or Ukraine police stops and shakedowns!

Note I hate drugs dealers and the damage they do to our nation but at least follow the constitutionally mandated due process laws when stopping and seizing cash...

Otherwise you reinforce DWB DWL DWI or DWB extra legal actions (Driving while Black, Lation (Must be drugs dealers) while Italian (Must be Mafia) and while British (Must be an ISIS Sympatico socialist White European self hater).

http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/8/6120971/cops-are-seizing-hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars-from-drivers-and  bragging about it on blogs - the guy who seizes the most in a year wins the Silver Knight award (eh er um and where does the money go - the local police departments off the books PBA funds etc etc a.k.a slush funds!)

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Re: American healthcare and taxes
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2014, 10:59:41 AM »
Andrew said: "Next stop with the silly adventurism with an army you can't afford whose function is the enrichment of the people who make the stuff the armed forces use and who benefit when usage increases (during 'war')".

Comical statement from Andrew Lord Neville Chamberlain... considering the USA CIC just meet with the President of Estonia in Estonia to reassure him that as a member of NATO he will be defended by said Adventurist USA when the Russian Bear decides it wants its Baltic Buffer back in place against the Empire inclined Europeans with a 2,000 year history of global domination... 

All so the Estonians do not have to pay for a proper level of defense and can continue to transfer that expense to the primary NATO members (USA, UK and perhaps Germany and France).

Andrew will be the first to flee to his refuge in Spain the moment Russian tanks mass at the Borders of Estonia, Lativia and Lithuania...    :pointlaugh:  :smileysherlock:   :prophead: