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Author Topic: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....  (Read 79440 times)

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Offline tfcrew

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2014, 11:07:25 AM »
After flight 370, you'd think they would route their flight path accordingly.

Offline Manny

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2014, 11:10:46 AM »
Ukraine has claimed the plane was shot down by the terrorists separatists, the fourth missile attack this week.  All previous attacks were with Buk missiles, which are not produced in Ukraine.  This does prove Russia is supplying the terrorists separatists with arms.

The separatists claim they have no hardware capable of downing a passenger jet at 10km up.

If the Russian separatists are, in fact, intentionally shooting down passenger airliners, then they would, in fact, qualify as "terrorists"  :smileysherlock:

B/B

I agree with you there BB. My opinion would change were that found to be the case.

tfcrew has a point above, why are passenger planes flying over this region anyway?
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Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline leslied

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2014, 11:16:39 AM »
The Ukrainian military also operate BUK missiles.  Indeed they supplied them to Geoergia under Yushenko in 2010 -

http://voiceofrussia.com/2010/10/26/28616215/


There appears to be a significant black market in the smaller variants...

It is no use jumping to conclusions there needs to be an international inquiry on this.

I am just so sorry for all the innocent people who were murdered on a civilian flight. 



Offline Orchid

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2014, 11:18:02 AM »

I agree with all of that, 100%.  However, I do believe Russia is supplying arms. 


It’s a mistake to give political color to mixture of crime and terrorism in Ukraine.
It’s mafia.
This people are very rich and powerful.
They are losing little by little their power and money and become more aggressive.
They do not have to buy or take weapon from Russia.
They have plenty of it in Ukraine.


I don't know how the terrorists can be easily controlled without significant civilian casualties.

You are right, dear Halo. The Ukraine is getting very close to civil war.
The Ukrainians are very patient, they have made already peacefull attempt
One day their patience will come to the end.

Offline Halo

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2014, 11:27:03 AM »
Quote
It’s a mistake to give political color to mixture of crime and terrorism in Ukraine.
It’s mafia.
This people are very rich and powerful.
They are losing little by little their power and money and become more aggressive.
They do not have to buy or take weapon from Russia.
They have plenty of it in Ukraine.

While I agree with all of that, Orchid, there is plenty of evidence of arms crossing the border.  My view has always been that oligarchs are funding this (on both sides), with a blind eye, or aid, from Russia.

Every death is a tragedy, whether it is a civilian, a soldier, or a terrorist.


On missiles, when it was alleged Ukraine shot down its own military plane, Ukrainian authorities noted the plane was downed by Buk missiles, which, they stated, are not used by them.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Maxx

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2014, 11:35:00 AM »

Would separists have such a system?



Wouldn't be more likely it came from the military of one side or the other?

Offline Halo

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2014, 11:39:26 AM »
The system used by the terrorists to shoot down two Ukrainian planes this weekend is also capable of shooting down a civilian plane. 

Logically, why would Ukraine shoot down a plane?  There is no indication the terrorists have aircraft at their disposal, and there are numerous civilian aircraft flying across Ukraine daily.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline ECR844

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2014, 11:46:18 AM »

The separatists claim they have no hardware capable of downing a passenger jet at 10km up.

The plane was at 33,000 feet well beyond shoulder mounted surface to air missiles. The kind the separatists would have. It would have to come from a larger truck mounted system the kind the Russian or Ukrainian military forces use.

The alleged platform was the SA-17 'grizzly' missile system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Offline tzwd72

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2014, 11:55:47 AM »
Just finished talking with some of our armed forces at the base (I have a school that I managed at Namao).

Here is the info that they have given me in regards to what might have happened and what shouldn't be likely.

- Rockets of that type of calibre can only be launched from a fixed site or armed forces.  There is very little chance the terrorists would be able to acquire as well as have the knowledge to use those types of missiles (even if they are the black ops type of trooper, very little chance in acquiring that fire power)

- There are many airlines that fly over that path as it is inexpensive for the airlines.

- Canadian commercial aircraft and Canadian Air force have a strict set of rules when it comes to flying in Russian air space.  1- they have a specific time window to enter and leave, no exceptions. 2-they must be in constant radio contact, no exceptions.

Anyway that's the info I could grab from them.  Then again please remember this is word of mouth information.

J
I kept telling the ladies in my country what I wanted...they pissed themselves laughing...

Offline Halo

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2014, 11:58:04 AM »
Quote
- Rockets of that type of calibre can only be launched from a fixed site or armed forces.  There is very little chance the terrorists would be able to acquire as well as have the knowledge those types of missiles (even if they are the black ops type of trooper, very little chance in acquiring that fire power)

Except they already used them twice last week against Ukrainian military planes.  So, they have acquired them, and have sufficient knowledge to use them.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Ste

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2014, 11:59:14 AM »
Quote
- Rockets of that type of calibre can only be launched from a fixed site or armed forces.  There is very little chance the terrorists would be able to acquire as well as have the knowledge those types of missiles (even if they are the black ops type of trooper, very little chance in acquiring that fire power)

Except they already used them twice last week against Ukrainian military planes.  So, they have acquired them, and have sufficient knowledge to use them.

Those planes where flying much lower though......
O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Online B.B.

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2014, 12:01:08 PM »
tfcrew has a point above, why are passenger planes flying over this region anyway?

It certainly doesn't matter, now, does it?

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B/B
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Offline Net_Lenka

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 12:01:23 PM »
Quote
- Rockets of that type of calibre can only be launched from a fixed site or armed forces.  There is very little chance the terrorists would be able to acquire as well as have the knowledge those types of missiles (even if they are the black ops type of trooper, very little chance in acquiring that fire power)

Except they already used them twice last week against Ukrainian military planes.  So, they have acquired them, and have sufficient knowledge to use them.
Any proves those two were shot exactly from BUK-systems?
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Online B.B.

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2014, 12:01:44 PM »
Would separists have such a system?

If Russia gave it to them, they would. 

Strobe Talbott says the Donetsk separatist boss ordered the plane shot down, thinking it was Ukrainian (see twitter link). This would also indicated that Putin is supplying the separatists with missile equipment.

Note: all information subject to verification.

B/B
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Offline Ste

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2014, 12:11:57 PM »
Would separists have such a system?

If Russia gave it to them, they would. 

Strobe Talbott says the Donetsk separatist boss ordered the plane shot down, thinking it was Ukrainian (see twitter link). This would also indicated that Putin is supplying the separatists with missile equipment.

Note: all information subject to verification.

B/B

My Russian is bad but I don't think he said that in the Twitter thing.

More like about the downing of the An-25 and the Sukhoi and mention of 'another' one downed near the Progress Mine and warning about airspace....
O pointy birds, o pointy pointy, Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

Offline Manny

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2014, 12:12:57 PM »
tfcrew has a point above, why are passenger planes flying over this region anyway?

It certainly doesn't matter, now, does it?

Cop to Rape Victim: "Why were you wearing such a short dress?"

 (:)

B/B

It matters if other airliners continue to do so.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline bagalia

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2014, 12:33:24 PM »
So many questions such including the accusation that a Russian jet shot down a Ukrainian jet just a day ago. Supposedly Ukraine has BUK units in the east where the plane went down and AP journalists saw one "around" the separatist occupied area where the plane went down though they did not say what side was controlling it. Russia has them. Who knows who has them but this is certainly a game changer. If I were a conspiracy theorist I might even think it was meant to be a game changer.

http://drudgereport.com/ is where I go for multiple news sources and they have ten or so already at the top of the page plus links to all major sources at the bottom.
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Offline Ste

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2014, 12:45:04 PM »

Russian Terrorist Strelok Claims Responsibility for Downed Boeing with 300 Passengers on Board.

I don't think he is though, (see my post above) can someone translate properly?
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Offline ECR844

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2014, 12:51:18 PM »

Russian Terrorist Strelok Claims Responsibility for Downed Boeing with 300 Passengers on Board.

I don't think he is though, (see my post above) can someone translate properly?

Ste,

As I read (in summary) it it appeared to read that the 'guerilla commander' got a report of an airplane in the his area. He/They apparently thought it was an An-26 or IL-76 so he ordered it shot down. In reality it was the Malaysian airlines flight.I'm sure someone with better language skills than me will clarify any mistakes in my translation quickly.

Offline NS1

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2014, 12:54:03 PM »
Who ever is found to be responsible has just taken 20 steps back,
in their cause. The world will sit up for this news.

Based on the last week, my guess is the rebels, as they have been shooting at planes with rockets
on more than a few occasions. As to this point, rebels don't have planes, logic says, Ukraine military
did not do this IMO. But I think we will know very quick who did.
There is nothing permanent except change.

Offline Maxx

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2014, 01:08:39 PM »
Would separists have such a system?

If Russia gave it to them, they would. 

Strobe Talbott says the Donetsk separatist boss ordered the plane shot down, thinking it was Ukrainian (see twitter link). This would also indicated that Putin is supplying the separatists with missile equipment.

Note: all information subject to verification.

B/B

I doubt if a bunch of separatists ruffians would be given such systems without the technicians, support personnel and equipment necessary to run and maintain it. What shot that plane down was government military forces Russian or Ukrainian. Was it just an accident or misidentified target? Yesterday Obama announced severe trade sanctions against Russia. Does this event tie into that?

Offline Net_Lenka

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2014, 01:09:13 PM »
https://twitter.com/spainbuca

Anyone here with Spanish to translate what traffic controller is talking about?
- А Вы кто такой будете?
-Тьфу на Вас
-А фамилия Ваша как?  -Тьфу на Вас еще раз .. а фамилия моя слишком известная, чтобы я её называл

Offline WestCoast

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Re: MH17: Malaysian Plane shot down over Ukraine - 295 on board....
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2014, 01:11:05 PM »
Who ever is found to be responsible has just taken 20 steps back,
in their cause. The world will sit up for this news.

Based on the last week, my guess is the rebels, as they have been shooting at planes with rockets
on more than a few occasions. As to this point, rebels don't have planes, logic says, Ukraine military
did not do this IMO. But I think we will know very quick who did.

Doesn't it have to be the rebels? The civil aviation authorities of the Ukrainian government would be tracking civilian aircraft as part of their job, air traffic controllers and such. The Russian civilian and military aviation authorities would know about the plane from radar and could read its transponder and know it was a civilian aircraft. It seems only the rebels would not have full knowledge of all air traffic in the region and could make mistakes by shooting down an aircraft unknown to them.
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