The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.

[Net_Lenka]

I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.

We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.

Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
 
The article is here:

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html

They will never believe Russia is the cause of almost all the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, Agape.  Even with evidence. 

Now, mercenaries who have not been seen as of yet?  Of course they exist (sarcasm).

Like you never be abel to admit that Easten areas possess own will and ideas with whom they wish to be And that your Maidawn was a start for all this mess

[Halo]

When heavily armed men from another country are caught red handed shooting at Ukrainians, you lose any moral right to argue about Maidan. 

[Manny]

I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/

Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/

Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/

[PBRstreetg]

Not to derail this thread, but perhaps this is what Andrew meant by American mercenaries in UA? http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/
 

I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/

Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/

Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/

 
In regards to the last link, I'm not qualified to offer a professional opinion. I do agree with our FSUW members for the most part however.
 
 
 

[mhr7]

I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/

Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/

Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/

All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.

Other than that, I don't think these articles contain anything that hasn't been discussed previously on the forum. Ukraine was hurting for money long before Yanu's departure and will continue to need help for quite some time to come. The Ukrainians never quite learned how to run their country efficiently, even with big brother's help.

[Halo]

I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/

Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/

Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/

Really?  You're quoting workers.org, the mouthpiece of the Workers World Party?  The same WWP that used to view Albania as the epitome of a socialist paradise, to be emulated by Western capitalist nations, because "every person has a donkey"?  The same WWP that viewed Tiananmen Square as a counter revolutionary rebellion and supported the Chinese suppression of it?  The same WWP that supported Saddam Hussein, and currently supports Kim Jong-il? 

Based on the WWP's stellar record of choosing the "right" side in any conflict, I suppose one could say "Yeah.  After more than half a century of backing the wrong horse, we know now the outcome in Ukraine." 

[Manny]

I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/

Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/

Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/

Really?  You're quoting workers.org, the mouthpiece of the Workers World Party?  The same WWP that used to view Albania as the epitome of a socialist paradise, to be emulated by Western capitalist nations, because "every person has a donkey"?  The same WWP that viewed Tiananmen Square as a counter revolutionary rebellion and supported the Chinese suppression of it?  The same WWP that supported Saddam Hussein, and currently supports Kim Jong-il? 

Based on the WWP's stellar record of choosing the "right" side in any conflict, I suppose one could say "Yeah.  After more than half a century of backing the wrong horse, we know now the outcome in Ukraine."

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

[Manny]

All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.

Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.

[Halo]

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?

[NS1]

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?

fits the propaganda, on the other thread running 45 pages, of it

[Manny]

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?

Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.

[yankee]

It absolutely amazes me the hatred coming from the Ukraine side of things.  I must admit, prior to this year Ukraine was a country I was interested in visiting -- not now.

[Halo]

Where is all this supposed hatred?  My better half's family are ethnic Russians, living in Kiev.  No one has threatened them, no one has suggested they move, no one has asked them to start speaking UKrainian, no one has told them to move to Russia, etc.

[ashbyclarke]

It absolutely amazes me the hatred coming from the Ukraine side of things.  I must admit, prior to this year Ukraine was a country I was interested in visiting -- not now.

Don't let a bit of forum guff put you off visiting such an amazing country.

Be like me saying I don't want visit France cos they're cowards, still has amazing food, wine, architecture and people.

[NS1]

Yup, I even stopped by the UK, even though they don't drive on proper side of the road:)
Do like some of the cars they build, Vanquish anyone

[NS1]

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?

Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.

Manny you are quick to point to us, othersidians about where we get our news from and
then spout off here. two way street eh?

[Halo]

Dozens of Chechen militants have joined the fighting on the side of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine in a development that threatens to further escalate the violence in the country.

On Tuesday, half-a-dozen armed men approached by the Financial Times outside a Donetsk regional hospital confirmed that they were part of a Chechen unit that had travelled to Donetsk one week ago to fight alongside the separatists.

“Our president [Chechnya’s Ramzan Kadyrov] gave the order. They called us and we came,” one of the fighters, a 33-year-old named Zelimkhan, said. He added that the unit was called the “dikaya diviziya”, or savage division.

The men said one of their group had been killed and four seriously injured in the Ukrainian military’s air strike on the Donetsk airport on Monday as government forces sought to recapture the facility from separatists

“They’ve killed one of our guys and we will not forget this,” said Magomed, a 30 year-old Chechen fighter with a wolf tattooed across his chest. “We will take one hundred of their lives for the life our brother.”

Vladimir Putin, Russian president, has repeatedly denied that Russian forces are operating on-the-ground in eastern Ukraine and helping the separatists.

A Russian foreign ministry official said it was foreign media “hype” to report the presence of armed Chechens in eastern Ukraine.

“If they are Chechens, they are citizens of the Russian Federation. We can’t control where our citizens go,” he said. “But I can assure you that we have not sent our forces there.” . . .

Chechen fighters have a reputation for brutal war tactics, having fought two long and bloody wars for independence from Russia. Chechen extremists have been responsible for many of the terrorist attacks in Russia in recent years as part of their continued fight for their republic’s independence.

But other Chechen fighters have chosen to side with Mr Kadyrov, the republic’s authoritarian leader, who receives substantial financial assistance from Moscow in return for keeping the region under the Kremlin’s control.

Zelimkhan, the Chechen fighter, said he had travelled to Donetsk with 33 other militants from Grozny via the Russian city of Rostov and that they were stationed at a Donetsk military base alongside three local pro-Russian paramilitary groups, each of which had its own commander.

He added that there were 16 fighters from Ossetia, another republic in Russia’s North Caucasus, who had been in eastern Ukraine for a month and were fighting alongside them.

Asked whether there were Russian fighters on the ground in eastern Ukraine, Zelimkhan replied: “Am I not Russian?”

“The Russians can’t openly attack Ukraine,” he added. They’re not officially here. Everything is underground.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dcf5e16e-e5bc-11e3-aeef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32xYcHDpJ

[WestCoast]

All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.

Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.

Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.

[Manny]

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?

Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.

Manny you are quick to point to us, othersidians about where we get our news from and
then spout off here. two way street eh?

Not really, I am critical of some othersideans for only listening to news from one nations source.

I find it curious many seem to ascribe credibility to the Kiev Post too. The paper was started by an American, is now owned by a British Indian guy whose Ukrainian wife hates Putin. Oh and most of the staff writers are American. Not much anti-Russian, pro-western sentiment there then. 

I find sensible folks tend to read much, what comes out of both sides of an issue, and formulate an opinion based on what they think is the likely truth situated in the grey areas somewhere between the differing versions of events.

[Manny]

All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.

Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.

Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.

Cant they get him back? He sounds just what America needs.

[NS1]

I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.

Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?

Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.

Manny you are quick to point to us, othersidians about where we get our news from and
then spout off here. two way street eh?

Not really, I am critical of some othersideans for only listening to news from one nations source.

I find it curious many seem to ascribe credibility to the Kiev Post too. The paper was started by an American, is now owned by a British Indian guy whose Ukrainian wife hates Putin. Oh and most of the staff writers are American. Not much anti-Russian, pro-western sentiment there then. 

I find sensible folks tend to read much, what comes out of both sides of an issue, and formulate an opinion based on what they think is the likely truth situated in the grey areas somewhere between the differing versions of events.

Yes I agree, but lets be honest, you tend to believe only what comes out of Russia, or bad sources, on this one which you got called on. if anyone here, speaks about people on the ground and their opinions, they are dismissed as not knowing the real issues or to emotionally involved. If you read what most people pro Ukrainian are saying,
they realize it began and evolved from many sides, doing many things wrong.
But Russia's involvement has done nothing but increase tensions, cost lives and to steal land. no amount of sideway reporting can change that. They are not welcome and have no business in Ukraine. When you finally go to Ukraine and see a few parts of the country, maybe you will look at it from a different point of view. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[andrewfi]

ladies and gentlemen, pleas remember that the objective reader is considering the words he is reading. Weighing the ideas suggested and the facts used in support of the argument.

The place where the words are published is pretty much irrelevant in consuming media objectively.

Put it this way, would you give more credibility to what you read in the New York Times, a mainstream publication recently famous for the inaccuracy and downright dishonesty of some of its reporting or Infowars of which the same can not be said?

Hmmm... trick question. There should be no difference. Both publish very useful material and one can learn much from both.

Think of the following for a moment:
It is lazy and inappropriate to try to suggest that a voice should not be listened to because of the room in which the voice can be heard.

If you have a criticism to make, an informed opinion based upon one's learning, then make the discussion about those things. The room, the colour of the wallpaper and the quality of its appointments are absolutely irrelevant.

[Halo]

seem to ascribe credibility to the Kiev Post too. The paper was started by an American, is now owned by a British Indian guy whose Ukrainian wife hates Putin. Oh and most of the staff writers are American. Not much anti-Russian, pro-western sentiment there then.

The Kiev Post under its former American owner broke the Gongadze story.  Its current editor in chief is American.  Here is a list of its staff.  Most have those barbaric Slavic surnames.


Brian Bonner, Chief Editor

Katya Gorchinskaya, Editor

Mark Rachkevych, Editor

Christopher J. Miller, Editor

Olga Rudenko, Editor

Ivan Verstyuk, Editor

Anastasia Forina, Staff Writer

Oksana Grytsenko, Staff Writer

Vlad Lavrov, Staff Writer

Maria Shamota, Staff Writer

Daryna Shevchenko, Staff Writer

Nataliya Trach, Staff Writer

Pavel Podufalov, Photo Editor

Kostyantyn Chernichkin, Photographer

Anastasia Vlasova, Photographer

Vladyslav Zakharenko, Chief Designer

ETA - Here is the last editorial from the Kiev Post before the election.  Can anyone say they are in the pockets of Ukrainian politicians?

The hopeful news is that Ukrainians are eager to turn out and elect a new president, as early as May 25, judging by the mood of the voters, who seem to want to avoid a runoff vote on June 15.

 The disappointing news is that the leading candidates – Petro Poroshenko, Yulia Tymoshenko and Sergiy Tigipko – are all part of the oligarch class that has left Ukraine in such a weakened state after 23 years of corruption, thieving and unaccountable, Soviet-style government.

The new generation of politicians and activists that came of age during the EuroMaidan Revolution didn’t field any candidates that caught the public’s imagination. Perhaps in normal times, they might have a chance. But Ukraine is holding a national election in crisis and during a compressed time frame. We look for new parliamentary elections in October, when we expect voters will remove the Communist Party, the disgraced elements of the Party of Regions and other lawmakers who aren’t serving their interests.

Judging by the polls, Poroshenko is the clear favorite. His detractors say that his victory is no reason for celebration, noting his role in the 1990s “oligarch” party of Viktor Medvedchuk, his role as a founder of the Party of Regions in 2002, led by the overthrown President Viktor Yanukvoych, and his service to the Yanukovych as economy minister.

Ukraine will need a president who does business cleanly, not corruptly, and not business as usual. The reason for the optimism, if Poroshenko is elected, is that he courageously took a stand in favor of the EuroMaidan Revolution early – well before victory was assured. His principled stance has earned him the wrath of Moscow, where his Roshen confectionary assets remain frozen, yet another badge of honor with most voters who saw other oligarchs waffle until the very end. The next president will be Ukraine’s fifth. If he governs like a public servant, not a power-obsessed ruler, he will be the first president to do so. He should also never forget that he can be removed by the will of the people. Just ask Yanukovych.

[Halo]

Think of the following for a moment:
It is lazy and inappropriate to try to suggest that a voice should not be listened to because of the room in which the voice can be heard.

It is equally lazy to quote a source because if spews one's own views (note - the piece was a de facto editorial, not news), without looking at the background.  Sort of like trusting your virginity to a well known rapist.  Or taking the headlines in Soviet era Pravdas at face value.

[sashathecat]

All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.

Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.

Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.

Cant they get him back? He sounds just what America needs.

He ran for president several times. A bit controversial, but yes, exactly what America needs in my opinion. A shame he will be retiring soon after serving his country for many years. Our next hope is his son Rand Paul.