The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.

[ashbyclarke]

Roads, unfortunately, is not the only issue of Russian Federation.
While Putin has got roughly 40 000 000 000 (probably, it is 140 000 000 000, what changes nothing) of , no,  not Russian roubles, most likely US dollars, average people in province live in not luxurious conditions

Interesting video

I do however have a different view, there's many of these Village people who have grown up in this environment who do not wish to have change, given the opportunity to move into a modern luxury apartment they would refuse, preferring to live in the lifestyle they know well, a modern lifestyle isn't something they desire.

Sure you will disagree, I talk from experience and some people I know.

There's one thing thinking that a modern life of TV, supermarkets, heating, running water etc seems like a life essential to most, some who have never had these modern conveniences are more then happy to live without, enjoy working the land to survive and couldn't understand a life any different.

There's then the case of pensions, whilst Russia doesn't provide a huge state pension the people don't starve, there's as much pension poverty in western countries as there is in Russia. I'm sure someone will provide statistics to disprove me but that doesn't take account of the self providing nature of older generations in Russia, many will work land in order to feed themselves during summer/winter. I know of one who's in her 90's still planting potatoes, strawberries etc etc etc.

That same lady would soon be dead sat in a nice apartment day in day out watching some Jeremy Kyle BS day in day out, she has a reason to live and remains active, I fully respect her for that.

The video is very misleading in real terms.

[Anteros]

instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)

you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.

Oh really?  You seem to be deeply confused.  Which one is it?  Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"??  You are a walking, talking contradiction.   

How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany?  See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?

Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???

Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption?  Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?

No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.

Have you been to Russia Ant? If so, when and which parts of the country have you driven?

As for parts being good or bad, can you say that about your own country? I certainly can, if you need examples let me know.

You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.


Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow???

And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???

I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country...


http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/

[mendeleyev]

Anteros, you need to give Russian road builders more time!

Plus, writing anything negative about Russia in publicly read media is now a crime under new laws. Tsk, tsk. You are a bad boy. You are free to have an opinion but not free to express it!

As to the roads, be patient, lad. Back in 2007 I wrote about the M-10 here on this forum:

Known as M-10, the Moscow Highway (Московское Шоссе) traveling south and as Leningrad Highway (Ленинградское шоссе) climbing north, 666 kilometres (414 miles) were in front of us.

When Dwight Eisenhower returned from Germany he was very impressed with German highways.  Realizing that modern highways would aid in the rapid defense should America be attacked, the USA began a campaign which we now know as the US Interstate highway system.  What it also did was revolutionize the economy, stimulating rapid transit of trade goods at a pace unknown anywhere else in the world.

Stalin on the other hand was afraid of modern roads.  Russia might be ruled by the Germans today had modern highways allowed the Germans to move quickly to conquer Leningrad and Moscow.  And Russia had been battered by Stalin's brutality before Hilter came calling and Russia was too drained to begin a modernization of roads.

So while the USA modernized thru the 1950s to 1970s, Russia today has less than 10 superhighways.  Known as Federal Highways, most of Russia's road system is not that much different than they were 50-100-150-500 years ago.  In the case of M-10, the Federal highway between Moscow and St P, the only difference today is pavement.  Built by a Frenchman who was lured to Russia by Alexander I on the promise of being commissioned as a Major General in the Russian Army, its the main road between Moscow and St Petersburg.   

The first known "travel article" written about the highway was authored by Alexander Radishchev, who in the year 1790 wrote his Journey from Petersburg to Moscow.   “I looked around me,” wrote Radishchev, “

and my soul was pierced by the sufferings of humanity. I turned my gaze within myself – and beheld that man’s affliction arises from man, and often only from the fact that he looks indirectly at the objects surrounding him”.

Not exactly an AAA Motor Club endorsement.  He was arrested and exiled to Siberia for writing the report.

Except for the addition of asphalt pavement, not much has changed to the 2 lane highway which wanders and angles thru small villages and towns toward it's destination.  The main highway in Russia, connecting two biggest cities Moscow city and St. Petersburg has only two lanes, with only a few sections with 3-4 lanes, mainly closer to the two cities.  Designed as a 'reverse' highway in which the middle lane, when it rarely appears, is a passing lane going either direction.  M-10 is accident prone and claims the lives of hundreds annually.

Don't get me wrong, its a scenic road with lots of little villages and slices of authentic Russian life.  Think of America's famous "Route 66" in the 1950s.  It's just not very fast.

Nor is it safe.

[mendeleyev]

In fairness, Russia is building M-11, a new toll expressway between Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Personally I like the idea, except the sections going thru the Khimki forest, as it offers a safer route with modern construction methods/roadway management and faster speeds around 150 km/h or 90+ mph.

You can read more about the new M11 here: http://www.aecom.com/Where+We+Are/Europe/Transportation/_projectsList/M11+Highway,+Russia

The existing M-10 will remain in place as kind of a Route 66 allowing a more scenic route. The M designation is for federal highway and it will continue on northward to Finlandia (Finland).

There are parts of the M-10 that are as modern as anywhere else.

[ashbyclarke]

You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.


Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow???

And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???

I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country...


http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/

Ant, it's a simple question, when have you been to Russia, and which parts have you driven? Why so secretive?

I have never driven to St Pete, there you got me, so just how many lanes in the motorway?

Which parts of Europe have you driven then? How do the European roads fair to Russian roads, can you give us your thoughts then I am very interested to hear them.

[ashbyclarke]

In fairness, Russia is building M-11, a new toll expressway between Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Personally I like the idea, except the sections going thru the Khimki forest, as it offers a safer route with modern construction methods/roadway management and faster speeds around 150 km/h or 90+ mph.

You can read more about the new M11 here: http://www.aecom.com/Where+We+Are/Europe/Transportation/_projectsList/M11+Highway,+Russia

The existing M-10 will remain in place as kind of a Route 66 allowing a more scenic route. The M designation is for federal highway and it will continue on northward to Finlandia (Finland).

There are parts of the M-10 that are as modern as anywhere else.

Interesting video Mendy, what i like most about it is something you don't get very often in Europe, minimal traffic!

[Danchik]

You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.


Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow???

And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???

I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country...


http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/

Ant, it's a simple question, when have you been to Russia, and which parts have you driven? Why so secretive?

And he talks about deflecting?

Yes, I'm curious too Ant, when was the last time you were here? And what cities have you been to?

Really, just curious.

Mendy, Yes it does take time, and you know that it takes "extra" time here in Russia .

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/toll-roads-to-become-core-of-moscow-regions-network/481756.htmlBut, it's coming.

[andrewfi]

Perhaps this is a more accurate source.

http://mashable.com/2014/05/15/steelworkers-eastern-ukraine/

You're not very good at this are you.

Mashable is not a source for anything. The site is an aggregator of material from around the internet. Nothing is original,  no reporters, no primary sources. When you read the link you shared you will recognise some of the words from your first link. You are looking at rewritten content from NYT, videos from YouTube and maybe a rewriter assembling the content.

What you might want to do to improve your understanding is some research into the characters and interests of the stakeholders. Learn about Ahkmetov's relationship with the junta. Read about his opinions on federalism. Understand where the markets for his products are.

Learn about the anti Kiev protesters in the region,  see what their interests are,  understand how they mesh with Ahkmetov's.

Then do a little reading about how warlords function, fiefdoms develop and how usually they are a reflection of the lack of power and legitimacy from the national government.

When you have learned this stuff you will understand just how the original NYT piece was misleading you. You will understand, as Sashathecat notes, the threat that Ahkmetov's move poses to Ukraine.

Basically you'll have learned a lot.

But you really have got get a handle on sources,  what they are and what they represent.

Mashable is a handy tool. A shame that they do not give credit to the sources they aggregate as that makes use of the site harder but as a jumping off point it can be useful. It is NOT a credible source for anything though.

[mhr7]

My purpose was to introduce the story to those who may not have been aware that it happened. If they wish to pursue further research on their own it's their choice.

[andrewfi]

Akhmetov's Metinvest group and the anti-Kiev protesters are allies and have joined in an agreement in respect of their relationship with Kiev and the management of the newly autonomous region.

Link to the agreement document is below.

Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1

Your claim that you merely introduced the topic of the tie up between Akhmetov's Metinvest and the anti-Kiev activists for discussion is rather given the lie by the title that you chose.

As I noted after your post the article was a misleading and untrue statement of affairs. So I guess that posting another source that merely reworded the first article was an accident.

Yes,  it is hard for you guys who are unable and unwilling to read critically, even harder when you can't deal with foreign languages but it did not take much to understand that the thrust of the article was likely to be fictional. The only question that needed to be asked was 'why would Metinvest take up arms against the protesters when we already know that they are in agreement about pretty much every issue?'

Anyway,  I  told you that the Metinvest owners and management had reached an agreement with the anti-Kiev activists.  Here is the text of that agreement,  note,  it is from a primary source. It gets no better than that. Of course one or both parties to the agreement could choose to renege,  but the purpose and objectives are clear.
Here's the link: http://www.metinvestholding.com/ru/press/news/show/2923

Ladies and gentlemen please understand I take no sides here,  unlike some - and you are,  of course free to do so if you identify some kind of common cause. What is hard though is dealing with people who place precedence in their imagining of what that cause is over the reality of the world as it is. That helps nobody because that means thought is discarded as a useful tool. The readers become some other person's useful tool: spreaders of disinformation as fact without taking the care to see if it might be true.

[mhr7]

Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1

Your claim that you merely introduced the topic of the tie up between Akhmetov's Metinvest and the anti-Kiev activists for discussion is rather given the lie by the title that you chose.

I chose that title because Akhmetov opposes separation and wants Ukraine to remain whole and unbroken. It's no lie.
The title is hardly relevant, folks can read the article and come to their own conclusions, as you did.

[andrewfi]

Ah,  so  now you are claiming that you knew what I told you was true from the outset,  that you did not believe the story to be true?
You understood,  even as you wrote the thread title that what you were writing was untrue?
If so why not tell us that the story was untrue,  that Akhmetov did NOT 'take on the seperatists'?

Why tell us stuff that you knew to be untrue?

[mhr7]

Ah,  so  now you are claiming that you knew what I told you was true from the outset,  that you did not believe the story to be true?
You understood,  even as you wrote the thread title that what you were writing was untrue?
If so why not tell us that the story was untrue,  that Akhmetov did NOT 'take on the seperatists'?

Why tell us stuff that you knew to be untrue?

I'll send a pm and consult with you before choosing a title next time, OK? Maybe, if you ask nicely, Manny will change it.

[bagalia]

If any of you ARE interested in what Ukrainians think (most of us, in fact), I could suggest you one of the Internet sources we respect most. It is Kiev Post.

For instance, in what comes to the events on the east of Ukraine, the very fresh update one can read on Dmitry Tymchuk's military blog. He is the head of Information Resistance Group.

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/author/dmitry-tymchuk/

The latest update says, Putin's intimidation tactics continue.

I also prefer the Kiev post especially as it is in English. There is another site with interesting information though in Russian language http://www.tsn.ua

Today there is an article with pictures of a supermarket in Simferopol. The shelves are mostly empty and the prices are up to 3 times higher such as the milk.
http://tsn.ua/foto/u-krimskih-supermarketah-sporozhnili-prilavki-a-cini-zrosli-v-pivtora-dva-razi-349985.html

Then there are nude pictures of the new foreign minister of the independent Donetsk republic.
http://tsn.ua/foto/na-luganschini-ministr-seapartistiv-fotografuyetsya-toples-na-vulicyah-mista-u-nepristoynih-pozah-349860.html

There is also a Kiev story with pictures, about the parents of people who died in Odessa.

I think it is interesting that at least one large part of giving Crimea to Ukraine was due to economic reasons. Now that it is back in the fold with Momma Russia they will need to deal with the economics. Double pension payments will not be of much use when there is very little water, utility rates are high and goods are drying up. This is all now up to Russia to supply or steal from Ukraine.

[NS1]

Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.

[WestCoast]

Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.

I can understand there being shortages and even price gouging it happens during times of rapid change however issues involving law and order should have been thought out well in advance. Russia had notice of the vote happening and the likely outcome, they could have sent in units of OMON or some other law enforcement agencies or military police to make sure the transition was as peaceful as possible. 

[Manny]

Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.

Serious question: Why have they been threatened and by whom?

[andrewfi]

Ah,  so  now you are claiming that you knew what I told you was true from the outset,  that you did not believe the story to be true?
You understood,  even as you wrote the thread title that what you were writing was untrue?
If so why not tell us that the story was untrue,  that Akhmetov did NOT 'take on the seperatists'?

Why tell us stuff that you knew to be untrue?

I'll send a pm and consult with you before choosing a title next time, OK? Maybe, if you ask nicely, Manny will change it.

No need to consult with me,  just with your conscience.
I was saddened that you are unwilling to say why,  if you knew the story to be untrue,  you chose a title that supported the contrary position.

If you thought the story was true and then changed your mind,  why did you not say so above? You had the opportunity to do so.

So,  no,  don't ask me,  no need to ask anyone; just be straight with the bloke in the mirror.

The thing is that this situation is interesting, it is something of a curve ball,  although the breakdown of the state and moving toward the fuedal/warlord mode had been mentioned some days ago, this is the first case and I personally was surprised when it popped up. Your man on the NYT was fast getting his spin in first,  beating other outlets in the West by a good 24 hours.

[NS1]

Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.

Serious question: Why have they been threatened and by whom?

Don't know every detail, as we were discussing piece of land wife owns in Krym.
She wanted to leave to her son, but looks like she will lose it.
Her friends are strong Ukrainian, some local Pro Russians, know this and more than a few occasions,
have said " your day is coming" different little things like that. When the vote come, they
were told to stay home. They would prefer to leave, but fear they will lose all.
Work for many has slowed down, so making less, things cost more.
At the moment, things are not as calm as reports, make it out to be.,I am sure with time it will level out. Basically I get Ukrainian people, are not quite welcome in Krym right now.
Also with tensions in the east, this only adds to the whole thing across the country, I am sure.

[sashathecat]

I have been told that in Ukraine if you have the funds you can pay off judges and they will sign the property over to you. There are many issues with property titles and the associated paperwork and the judge will even send in armed policemen to help in the eviction. Entire apartment buildings have been seized this way I am told.  My MIL is having issues with a similar situation with the title at the moment. I would imagine the recent events in Crimea make things like this appealing to the criminals.

[Millaa]

Never read ukrainian news 
Just visit local forums and get information. Mariupol forum for example.
http://forum.0629.com.ua/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=256625&start=1350

sadly it is in Russian. People tell about things they were participators and how it was discribed in "honest" ukraine media.

Simferopol forum
http://simferopol.in/forum/92-pereezzhaem-v-rossiju/

Enjoy information from first hands 

[Millaa]

http://truba.com/video/407051/

That guy just took camera and made a trip about place he lives. A bit different from ukrain journalist view

[Agape]

I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.

We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.

Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
 
The article is here:

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html

[Halo]

I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.

We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.

Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
 
The article is here:

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html

They will never believe Russia is the cause of almost all the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, Agape.  Even with evidence. 

Now, mercenaries who have not been seen as of yet?  Of course they exist (sarcasm).

[Net_Lenka]

I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.

We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.

Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
 
The article is here:

http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html

Obviously "us" do not include those who are under your fire now in Slavyansk and Donetcsk As well as people in Crym wish opposite YOU would leave your claims on their home for yoursleves

And those of you who are going to make your famouse borshch turning on gaz would have to "bother" all after all with what Russia thinks about your country , as well as those who are going to work here sending  money back to Ukraina - you are just not in that position where you could afford to be on your own