Dating & Marriage With Women From Russia, Ukraine, Belarus & FSU > Dating in the FSU and Other Countries

Her Orthodox faith--and your marriage

(1/45) > >>

mendeleyev:
Moderator Jooky has graciously allowed this topic to be split off so that it can have a life of it's own and cover more ground for our members in relation to how her Orthodox faith will impact your marriage.  Thanks Jooky!

We'll start with the question of how her faith may influence her view of sex upon her arrival to your country:


Think about the religion angle:  I'll wager that most engaged men have only a fleeting knowledge of her faith, how she practices it, and how it effects her view on life.  Unfortunately we often make the assumption that she is only religious by birth and since she doesn't go to church very often its no problem for either of us.  Dangerous, very dangerous assumption on our part.

Sometimes these ladies don't practice their faith until an important life milestone comes around....like marriage, birth of a child, death of a parent, etc.  Then suddenly that cultural upbringing kicks in and the head covering goes on, the miniskirt comes off, a long dress goes on, the prayer book and icons come out and the candles get lit.  Holy mother of incense, her new husband is standing there wondering what in heaven's name (literally) came over his wife.

Marriage is a big deal to any woman, but especially to a RW/UW.  I certainly do understand the psychology of a lady who might have "participated freely" during her guy's visits, but perhaps has consulted and confessed with her priest before coming here and hopes that her man will allow her the short period before marriage to enter the union as "pure" before God in the practice of her Orthodox faith. 

How many of us are willing to give her that short time if we discovered this was very important to her spiritually/emotionally?  If not, what will we do, throw her away and go get another one? 

I'm guessing that many who would respond with a "we'll communicate about it beforehand" have no idea when she last went to confession, the name of her family confessor, what the inside of her church looks like, and most importantly--what it would mean to her if advised by her family priest to "wait" until the wedding was performed.  So much for that good and close communication we're banking on. 

BTW, after confession, if it was sincere, she is under the understanding that she has a fresh start and can enter the union pure.  It's not so mindlessly American as "well we did it before so what does it matter to God now."  Maybe, in her heart in might just matter.  Ah, that is why she confessed (without telling us first) by the way. 

I won't write a long theological background but suffice it to say that in her Orthodox understanding confession involves two things:  Confessing a sin and then Sanctification.  Our Roman Catholic or Protestant upbringing is very different so it's hard to understand.  That Sanctification means a "continuing state of grace." In other words she promises God in her confesssion that she will continue to live purely in this short period until married.  After marriage the sexual act becomes Sanctified and she is free to enjoy it with you (except during fasting periods). 

A Roman Catholic or Protestant could sin over and over again as long as they confess over and over again.  Orthodoxy does not give her those easy options.  Sanctification means that she needs to change her actions after confessing.  BTW, she didn't confess to her priest ,so trying to convince her that the dude is only an old-fashioned old fart who doesn't understand modern realities is a waste of breath. 

Unlike the RC church, Orthodox confession is said directly to God.  The priest is there primarily as a witness on behalf of God and the congregation.  He has no authority to absolve or forgive sins.  He is there only as a witness to her sincere confession and to provide encouragement and assurance that if her confession was sincere, then God will provide the forgiveness.  He is also there to warn and discipline her against failure.  Her confession and promise to change was made directly to God.  The priest is only God's representative, he is not there "in the place of Christ" as in RC theology.

Many of our guys do not marry a lady so devout but some of us do.  However, look out because very often RW are religious "late bloomers" as they have a very strong tendency to become devout as they begin to have children.  Come to my RO church in Arizona.  Often the first time we meet a "new" RW is when she is pregnant.  She may have been in the US for a couple years and barely darkened a church door.  But get her PG and watch her change.

Speaking of sex, many ladies understand that sexual activity is to be curtailed during the two major fasting periods of the Orthodox year.  Ah, boys, that is 40 days before Easter and then again 40 days before Christmas.  80 days out of 365 before we count monthly menstrations and headaches. 

Oops, we aren't finished yet.  Orthodox Sunday technically starts at nightfall on Saturday night and a devout person may also wish to fast before communion.  So add another 52 Saturday nights while you're calculator is still melting and your smoke alarm is screaming in the background.

Notice I said "many" and am not trying to paint with an overly large brush here.  Are you certain, really sure, that your lady is not included among that "many?"  How do you know? 

Before I just wrote it on this post did you even know about this possibility?  Can you articulate her views on the fasts? 

BTW, the largest migration of practicing members, among almost any faith, are adults who were not practicing during their 20's.  So if your lady is not devout now, you stand a better than excellent chance of seeing her become more devout as the 30s and 40s set in.  Fortunately for your marriage, statistics say that you also will desire to adopt a faith practice as you grow older so perhaps you can grow together.  It might not be so bad after all.

Sometimes I hear that myth that Russia was not really Orthodox during the 76 years of Soviet rule.  Oh really?  Here are some stats you might find interesting:

- At the height of communism, only 14% of the Russian people possessed official party membership.  The 76 year average was closer to 7%.
- It was common for many "athiests" to have their children baptized and to attend holiday services, "just in case."
- Most party members, who took an oath against religion, attended services at least once each year.
- Even with so many churches being destroyed, the remaining were well attended during every Soviet leader's time in power, including the reign of the Seminarian-turned-agnostic Josef Stalin.

We sometimes hear, and sometimes some ladies tell us that Orthodoxy has no meaningful impact on life in Russia.  Of course it's irrelevant.  That's why it's the official protected state religion.  That's why the Patriarch is guarded by the Russian FSB.  That's why the government spends millions to rebuild old churches and to build new ones.  That's why churches are full on Sundays and holy days....including being full of young ladies....maybe just like your fiance?

That's why the government officially participates in those two fasts I mentioned earlier!  You can go on the Internet and learn the changes made to the official Russian White House and Kremlim cafeterias during the fasting periods....because Orthodoxy has no impact on modern Russia.  Sure, that explains why the giving up of meat/dairy/eggs/oil/alcohol, etc, are important enough that the entire national school systems and regional government office cafes and cafeterias in Russia, Belarussia and Ukraine (including now in good ole modern 2007) adjust their menus for those two major fasts. 

So much for the false notion that "most Russians don't participate."  When you go to the supermarket and many of your favourite foods are missing...you'll participate just like the rest if only out of necessity.

And RW are very superstitious.  Many who don't believe, observe the fast anyway.  Why?  Superstitions abound about why they should.  Let me get this straight:  I'm asking a lady who sincerely believes it's bad luck to shake hands over a doorway to rationally explain why she is a non-practicing believer...but fasts anyway?  Okay........

When is the Russian fast by the way? 

I can guarantee that even most non-practicing Russian ladies will know when it starts because its so widely practiced across Russia and Ukraine that soon the supermarkets and kiosks will adjust their inventory items accordingly. 

To enhance communication with your lady, your assignment should you choose to accept it, is this:

1)  Find out the dates the Russian Orthodox Nativity fast begins and ends.  (These dates will be different from the American Orthodox dates.)

2)  One of these two major fasts will spend a week eating pancakes/cheese before the fast begins.  Did you know if it is the Christmas or Easter fast?  Do you know why she will do this?

3)  Can you come up with a list of things, food and otherwise, a Russian household will commonly give up during the Nativity fast?

4)  Can you articulate a spiritual reason for the Orthodox fasts?

5)  Here is a question I guarantee she'll have an immediate answer off the top of her head without thinking:  Ask if she typically gains weight or if she loses weight during a fast?  (The old body index of how she reacts to carbs versus proteins.)  She'll have an immediate answer for you--guaranteed.  Her answer will also reveal wheither or not she typically observes the fasts.

Remember this is not only religious, it also a prominent part of her national culture. 

Some Muslim and Jewish households simulate a fast on dates close to the Orthodox.  After coming up with thorough answers, pick up the phone and get to know your lady in a new and deeper way than most guys who've done this venture have ever dreamed about.  She'll be impressed....and you will know each other even better.

Rasputin:

--- Quote from: mendeleyev on November 21, 2007, 01:55:41 AM ---Moderator Jooky has graciously allowed this topic to be split off so that it can have a life of it's own and cover more ground for our members in relation to how her Orthodox faith will impact your marriage.  Thanks Jooky!

We'll start with the question of how her faith may influence her view of sex upon her arrival to your country:

Think about the religion angle:  I'll wager that most engaged men have only a fleeting knowledge of her faith, how she practices it, and how it effects her view on life.  Unfortunately we often make the assumption that she is only religious by birth and since she doesn't go to church very often its no problem for either of us.  Dangerous, very dangerous assumption on our part.

Sometimes these ladies don't practice their faith until an important life milestone comes around....like marriage, birth of a child, death of a parent, etc.  Then suddenly that cultural upbringing kicks in and the head covering goes on, the miniskirt comes off, a long dress goes on, the prayer book and icons come out and the candles get lit.  Holy mother of incense, her new husband is standing there wondering what in heaven's name (literally) came over his wife.

Many of our guys do not marry a lady so devout but some of us do.  However, look out because very often RW are religious "late bloomers" as they have a very strong tendency to become devout as they begin to have children.  Come to my RO church in Arizona.  Often the first time we meet a "new" RW is when she is pregnant.  She may have been in the US for a couple years and barely darkened a church door.  But get her PG and watch her change.

Notice I said "many" and am not trying to paint with an overly large brush here.  Are you certain, really sure, that your lady is not included among that "many?"  How do you know? 

Before I just wrote it on this post did you even know about this possibility?  Can you articulate her views on the fasts? 

BTW, the largest migration of practicing members, among almost any faith, are adults who were not practicing during their 20's.  So if your lady is not devout now, you stand a better than excellent chance of seeing her become more devout as the 30s and 40s set in.  Fortunately for your marriage, statistics say that you also will desire to adopt a faith practice as you grow older so perhaps you can grow together.  It might not be so bad after all.

Sometimes I hear that myth that Russia was not really Orthodox during the 76 years of Soviet rule.  Oh really?  Here are some stats you might find interesting:

- At the height of communism, only 14% of the Russian people possessed official party membership.  The 76 year average was closer to 7%.
- It was common for many "athiests" to have their children baptized and to attend holiday services, "just in case."
- Most party members, who took an oath against religion, attended services at least once each year.
- Even with so many churches being destroyed, the remaining were well attended during every Soviet leader's time in power, including the reign of the Seminarian-turned-agnostic Josef Stalin.

We sometimes hear, and sometimes some ladies tell us that Orthodoxy has no meaningful impact on life in Russia.  Of course it's irrelevant.  That's why it's the official protected state religion.  That's why the Patriarch is guarded by the Russian FSB.  That's why the government spends millions to rebuild old churches and to build new ones.  That's why churches are full on Sundays and holy days....including being full of young ladies....maybe just like your fiance?

That's why the government officially participates in those two fasts I mentioned earlier!  You can go on the Internet and learn the changes made to the official Russian White House and Kremlim cafeterias during the fasting periods....because Orthodoxy has no impact on modern Russia.  Sure, that explains why the giving up of meat/dairy/eggs/oil/alcohol, etc, are important enough that the entire national school systems and regional government office cafes and cafeterias in Russia, Belarussia and Ukraine (including now in good ole modern 2007) adjust their menus for those two major fasts. 

So much for the false notion that "most Russians don't participate."  When you go to the supermarket and many of your favourite foods are missing...you'll participate just like the rest if only out of necessity.

And RW are very superstitious.  Many who don't believe, observe the fast anyway.  Why?  Superstitions abound about why they should.  Let me get this straight:  I'm asking a lady who sincerely believes it's bad luck to shake hands over a doorway to rationally explain why she is a non-practicing believer...but fasts anyway?  Okay........

When is the Russian fast by the way? 

I can guarantee that even most non-practicing Russian ladies will know when it starts because its so widely practiced across Russia and Ukraine that soon the supermarkets and kiosks will adjust their inventory items accordingly. 

Remember this is not only religious, it also a prominent part of her national culture. 

--- End quote ---

Where should I start? You have covered a lot of material and I agree with you on some points, and I am much less convinced on others.

I agree that before marriage, a man should know as much as possible about his future wife, including her religious beliefs. I agree that a man should try to know as much as possible about his wife's culture, including her religion.

However, in reading your post, I find that you may be exaggerating the impact of Russian Orthodox on the lives of most Russian women. I am not saying that there is no impact, but you seem to be implying that at some point in your marriage your wife will change completely and she will adopt the behaviors that I would associate with a Russian Orthodox nun. You write: "Then suddenly that cultural upbringing kicks in and the head covering goes on, the miniskirt comes off, a long dress goes on, the prayer book and icons come out and the candles get lit." What exactly do you mean by this? Are you saying that at some point a woman will abandon miniskirts all together and will spend her days in a long dress praying before the icons? Or are you saying that when she does go to church, she will put on a dress because it is expected of a woman? If you are saying the first is correct, than I would have to disagree. I have yet to see any woman who would change that radically as a result of her suddenly becoming devout. I know a handful of devout Russian Orthodox women in Canada and Russia (out of the many dozens of Russian Orthodox but not devout Russian Orthodox that I know and knew), and none of the devout Russian Orthodox women that I know come anywhere close to the level of religious intensity you have implied.

Is it possible that your perception is biased? You write: "Come to my RO church in Arizona." Is your perception of Russian Women colored by the fact that you are likely to see them in Church? It  goes without saying that the behavior of women in a church will be quite different from the behavior of the same women in their daily lives. Also, how much time have you spent in Russia? You write: "So much for the false notion that "most Russians don't participate."  When you go to the supermarket and many of your favourite foods are missing...you'll participate just like the rest if only out of necessity." Is this based on personal experience in Russia?

You also conflate private religious beliefs with politics and nationalism. You are right, the Russian state has found religion and is recycling older religious themes and at some point may begin claiming that Moscow is the third Rome. However, is the new state fervor really trickling down to the population? Is it even trickling up to the politicians? This is an entirely separate debate. I am a bit skeptical. The state and the Russian Orthodox Church are certainly using each other to promote themselves, but I do not know whether it has had a radical change in the religious practice of most people.

Also, you bring in both religion and superstitious beliefs. In my experience, Russians (men and women) have a number of beliefs. You are right about it being inappropriate to shake hands before you have entered the house, also you can't give someone a gift over the door sill, you can't whistle inside a house (fortunately for me I can't whistle), and dozens of other little rules and quirks. However, if a man is tolerant and respectful, these new "rules" are quite minor and won't really have much of an impact of your future life with your wife. All I did was simply learn the new "rules." Nothing very drastic was required.

You mention the fast. I agree that some Russian women will follow the Russian Orthodox fast, but again few women will follow it strictly. Many might know that it starts, but will simply notice it in passing and continue eating and living as they have always done.

My wife is Russian Orthodox. In the past, she did go occasionally to a Russian Orthodox Church. She even went to a Russian Orthodox Church to light some votive candles and ask God to help her find a husband. She met me shortly afterwards. We do have icons in our house and will baptize any future children in the Russian Orthodox Church. However, my wife is not all that interested in actually attending a church service: she prefers sleeping in on a Sunday. She never follows the the fast (Lent) and does not put on a long dress to pray in front of icons. Simply put, she is pretty much like most Russian women that I have known, both with children and without children.

Simply put, I agree with you on many points, but I question the level of religiosity that you imply in your post. I simply have not seen it in the Russian community in Canada and in Russia.

mendeleyev:
Rasputin, I agree with you on certain points also.  Our contact with Russians varies from Russian Club events in both Arizona and Chicago area, and in Russia.  We actively maintain homes in both countries because of my wife's business and spend a lot of time in Russia also.  In the NYC area is where I notice the most non-practcing Christian Russians, or of Jewish lineage.

My city of Phoenix is home to a large number of both Russian and Uzbek Jews who have very active cultural and faith communities.  As a journalist I'm fortunate to be invited to many of their cultural events as well as weddings, etc.  There is definitely a resurgence of faith in the Russian Jewish community as well both here and in Russia.

In Russia a religious revival of sorts is going on.  Not in the same way we think of "revival" in old southern USA, but a reinterest in Christianity.  Most churches, no matter which city, are full.  The number of younger demographics re-entering the church in Russia has drawn the attention of religious observers and several prominent western religion magazines for instance. 

I firmly, yes very firmly, believe that many western men have little training of the depths of influence that religion and nationalism brings upon their lady.  I meet guys who smugly think they know everything about their RW only to be blindsided at some point.  It is commonly referred to by Russians as "Holy Mother Russia."  That is not by accident.

And you are equally correct about the "Third Rome" idea.  It's just around the corner.  Patriarch Alexi effectively leads almost 75% of the world's Orthodox believers.  Meanwhile the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is hemmed in by Turkish law, has little ability to travel outside his country, and the government of Turkey stipulates that all future Patriarchs must be citizens of Turkey.  With less than 100,000 Orthodox in Turkey, this Turkish law is a time bomb waiting to fizzle out.  Moscow already uses "Third Rome" terminology quite freely.  It's coming.

Manny:

--- Quote from: mendeleyev --- Sometimes these ladies don't practice their faith until an important life milestone comes around....like marriage, birth of a child, death of a parent, etc.  Then suddenly that cultural upbringing kicks in and the head covering goes on, the miniskirt comes off, a long dress goes on, the prayer book and icons come out and the candles get lit.  Holy mother of incense, her new husband is standing there wondering what in heaven's name (literally) came over his wife.

Marriage is a big deal to any woman, but especially to a RW/UW. 
--- End quote ---

When I was first writing to my wife and she told me she was Orthodox, I asked her if she was practicing; a frequent attendee. She said "no, very seldom."

She was here not very long and Christmas was upon us, she asked if there were any Russian churches here, I found one, we went, and she liked it. Yes she covered her head and did the "hail Mary's" and all that too. She did this prior in Moscow at the little church opposite St Basil's and again at the Cathedral in Estonia later.

Before she came to England to be married she sought the advice of her priest in her home town on the concept of a "Church of England" Anglican wedding, he told her the Anglican church were quite well affiliated with the Orthodox church so she was happy. In England there are many rules about the admission of a non resident of the parish into the church, as we wanted to marry in an adjacent parish to my own, we needed permission and blessing from the local priest there. It was not automatic.

So we had to have a meeting at his house one night to be "interviewed." - I said to her "be nice, pleasant and friendly as this guy can say no" - what did she do? Sat him down and grilled him about Orthodoxy and Anglican faiths, scripture, meanings of the bible, differences between the religions, minutiae of the service he "hoped to perform" (I had my head in my hands by now) All about the concept of "obey" in our marriage vows, (I sent her a translated version of the wedding vows a few weeks before to see of they differed and for approval by Parents) Then she started to challenge him on certain items in the service, she changed a few in line with Orthodoxy (not the Obey one though but you would never know it now) - Then she hit him with the biggie.............

"My parents will be here from Russia" she said - "OK" said the hapless priest, - "My Mother will do a reading in Russian", - "OK" he said. - "We have guests from Russia also" - "OK" he said, - "and I have a few friends here who are Russian", "OK" he said, -  "so you will do a welcome for them in Russian language"  :scared0005:

He agreed!  :laugh:

So then she wrote what he would say, taught it to me, I taught it to him, we met 3 times while he practised with my transliteration, she chastised him with the word "raseeeeee" as he didn't have a long enough "eeee"  :-\

I gave him telephone tutorials as to how the letter "ж" was like "zh" or the "s" in "pleasure" etc, the poor guy was browbeaten.

But on the day he delivered quite a long welcome speech in Russian to applause!  :bow:

Since then we have been to the Orthodox church many times, and the one in Estonia, and a few weeks ago I was baptised Orthodox, and in a few months my son will be too.  :o

But contrary to Mendeleyev above, she has never lost the miniskirts thank god.  :bow:

Rasputin:
I chose the much simpler route: converted to Orthodoxy before the marriage and married in a Russian Orthodox Church in Canada. Beautiful ceremony. Everybody was happy.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page