Is Ukraine a Failed State?

[Anteros]

The Association Agreement was more a trade agreement to allow EU countries (states) better access to the Ukraine market and vice versa.

Ukraine is a long way from being any where near a Schengen member.

Many of the so-called day labours of Poland are in fact from Ukraine as are many of the same in England from Poland.

As for sending all the immigrants from Mexico and Central America that are in the United States as well as those who are from Central/Eastern Europe and Turkey back home. Who will collect the trash and take care of the kiddies, who will deliver the packages, and paint your homes and cut your lawns?

Yes unfortunately many abuse the systems, but I would guess a larger percentage earn money to support there family back home.

For what it is worth I work with a day guy in CT, 56 years old strong as an ox. He can lift twice his weight, every dollar he earns beyond his expenses he sends to his family. Two daughters in college, wife he has not seen for some three years. They have a small farm about an hour from the capital. He does not complain, he works.

When with another employer he injured himself and started to work with me I noticed something wrong. I took him to an Emergency room and used my Credit Card to pay the bill. The next day at the end of the day we had a beers, it is was Saturday and he goes to church on Sunday. He cried and blubbered out thank you.

I said to give them temporary worker status and allow them 6 months in and 6 months out (some have said 9 months in and only 3 months out).  I am not a sadist, I know most are hard working human beings.  I am simply against awarding Citizenship to illegal aliens.  Reagan did it, it was supposed to be the last time, but it only resulted in more flooding our borders.

How many poorly educated low wage workers do we really need?  We need highly skilled immigrants with Engineering and Science degrees.

[lordtiberius]

Yankovich's snub to the EU and his own people will have consequences - WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY

[el_guero]

....

I said to give them temporary worker status and allow them 6 months in and 6 months out (some have said 9 months in and only 3 months out).  I am not a sadist, I know most are hard working human beings.  I am simply against awarding Citizenship to illegal aliens.  Reagan did it, it was supposed to be the last time, but it only resulted in more flooding our borders.

How many poorly educated low wage workers do we really need?  We need highly skilled immigrants with Engineering and Science degrees.

I know many doctors who immigrate from Mexico - always have, always will.

We had LEGAL GUEST WORKER PROGRAM THAT WORKED GREAT.

Until the socialist party (democrats) abolished the Brasero program in the 1960's ....

The brasero program worked great.  For US and for Mexicans.

But, now under the guise of illegal Mexicans being the problem, the State Department has imported millions of Muslims ....

[lordtiberius]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/world/europe/ukraine-protests.html?_r=0

Every Westerner of good will should stand with the Ukrainian people.

[lordtiberius]

I am surprised more people haven't commented on this topic.  I wonder if it is because this is British board and the Brits go to Russia where as Canadians and Americans go to Ukraine. 

More news:  The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/NiT0zcDA9RU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/NiT0zcDA9RU</a>


The men terrorizing these protestors are not the local police, but the Berkat from Crimea.  This is a local police man.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BpuGRSpB1ZQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/BpuGRSpB1ZQ</a>

[Manny]

the Brits go to Russia where as Canadians and Americans go to Ukraine. 

Not true.

The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

No, the EU people should vote on who comes in, not the wannabees. I bet Ukraine would lose. They are culturally tied with Russia so leaning towards Russia makes sense.

Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

[Slumba]

Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

They are all already here! 

Peter Mandelson, UK dirtbag extraordinaire, has nothing on the USA Federal govt in terms of perfidy re: immigration.

[lordtiberius]

Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist? 

[Mikeav8r]

the Brits go to Russia where as Canadians and Americans go to Ukraine. 

Not true. Agree.  I go to Russia as do many other Americans and Canadians.

The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

No, the EU people should vote on who comes in, not the wannabees. I bet Ukraine would lose. They are culturally tied with Russia so leaning towards Russia makes sense.

Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

Also agree.  The people should have a voice to decide to petition for entry, but it should be up to the EU to allow them in based on several criteria...

[Mikeav8r]

Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

They are all already here!    With hundreds, if not thousands, more each day...

Peter Mandelson, UK dirtbag extraordinaire, has nothing on the USA Federal govt in terms of perfidy re: immigration.

[lordtiberius]

The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  The EU offered them associate membership.  The Yanokovich said he would sign the agreement but Putin bribed him and at the last minute, he declined.  You may not like the EU.  You may want to change the rules.  You may block their membership.  But to regard a Ukrainian on the same level as a Mexican is not only inaccurate but immoral.

We have debated on this forum and on your other one.  Have and defend your points with more intellectual honesty.  Pozhalista

Edited to add:
Regions members in the Rada quit the party and join the opposition.  President Janokovich could lose the Rada.
http://un.ua/eng/article/479327.html

[Slumba]

  But to regard a Ukrainian on the same level as a Mexican is not only inaccurate but immoral.

What is the level of a Mexican, exactly?

[lordtiberius]

What is the level of a Mexican, exactly?

I will get back to you after I consult my PUA manual of morality.  I tell you what.  I will answer your OFF TOPIC question in detail once you make your views known on the matter:

The President of Ukraine has beaten his own citizens in the street.  Over 30 arrested, 6 missing, 1 rumored dead.

I urge my fellow Americans to take up the cause:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V#thank-you=p

Manny, do you support beating people up that disagree with you and Putin?

[ashbyclarke]

Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist?

LT - thing is the EU isn't in any great shape to take onboard another liability that the Ukraine would be.

The UK will be renegotiating it's membership soon enough, immigration being a real strong issue here, the weaker member states are a real immigration problem, another problem state will not be tolerated in England, it's a real possibility if they joined we would quit, where would that leave the EU.

It seems to me, that the safest option for Ukraine is what is knows right now, the EU is a uncertain gamble, better the devil you know

[Slumba]

What is the level of a Mexican, exactly?

I will get back to you after I consult my PUA manual of morality.  I tell you what.  I will answer your OFF TOPIC question in detail once you make your views known on the matter:

The President of Ukraine has beaten his own citizens in the street.  Over 30 arrested, 6 missing, 1 rumored dead.

I urge my fellow Americans to take up the cause:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V#thank-you=p

Manny, do you support beating people up that disagree with you and Putin?

I agree it should not have happened. 

Given that drones, deployed illegally into countries that the USA has not declared war on, have killed many more innocents than 1, or even 7, why persist in the myth of America having some kind of moral authority? 

We haven't had a rightful claim to moral authority for what, 10+ years now?  Or do you still believe in the myth of WTC 7?

[lordtiberius]

Mexicans are a wonderful people.  I'd rather have Mexicans than Muslims immigrate.  The EU has solved that problem with the expansion of the EU east rather than south.  I wouldnt mind having a North American Union.  But the druglords rule Mexico to feed lazy American addictions.

As for morals, one invariably speaks of religion and your views on the matter are well known and need no further investigation.

You can oppose membership without justifying the mauling of these Ukrainian patriots.  Or are you silent on that too?

[Manny]

Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist?

LT - thing is the EU isn't in any great shape to take onboard another liability that the Ukraine would be.

The UK will be renegotiating it's membership soon enough, immigration being a real strong issue here, the weaker member states are a real immigration problem, another problem state will not be tolerated in England, it's a real possibility if they joined we would quit, where would that leave the EU.

It seems to me, that the safest option for Ukraine is what is knows right now, the EU is a uncertain gamble, better the devil you know

That about sums it up.

LT, it is no secret that on the whole I am a Putin supporter. He is about the only world leader who has a pair.

He also takes the occasional moment from his day [or his office does] to intervene in minor issues; as I have noted before. 

[ashbyclarke]

Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist?

LT - thing is the EU isn't in any great shape to take onboard another liability that the Ukraine would be.

The UK will be renegotiating it's membership soon enough, immigration being a real strong issue here, the weaker member states are a real immigration problem, another problem state will not be tolerated in England, it's a real possibility if they joined we would quit, where would that leave the EU.

It seems to me, that the safest option for Ukraine is what is knows right now, the EU is a uncertain gamble, better the devil you know

That about sums it up.

LT, it is no secret that on the whole I am a Putin supporter. He is about the only world leader who has a pair.

He also takes the occasional moment from his day [or his office does] to intervene in minor issues; as I have noted before. 

Putin is less out for war and more for peace than any of the other major world leaders, currently IMO. He's shown logic and solutions, something we have never given Russia credit for in the past.

Tables have turned, may it long continue.

[Manny]

Putin is less out for war and more for peace than any of the other major world leaders, currently IMO. He's shown logic and solutions, something we have never given Russia credit for in the past.

Tables have turned, may it long continue.

Agree completely.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that America was funding some of these protests in Kiev. As they did in Moscow with the anti-Putin ones.

[lordtiberius]

Manny, if you have proof post it.  Manny, what would Obama gain by intervening?  Manny, do you support beating people up who disagree with you?

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?

[Manny]

LT, I wont get into your silly stuff or be drawn into silly side arguments.

I stated my view. You are free to disagree or debate.

[2tallbill]

To deal or not to deal? Ukraine’s EU-Russia crossroads in facts and numbers

EU Association agreement (AA)
Another round of talks between Ukraine and the EU is scheduled for March 2014, where Kiev may ultimately decide to sign in, according to the Ukrainian president’s advisor Andriy Honcharuk. This will be two months before Belarus, Russia, and Kazakhstan will have a document ready to sign onto their Eurasian Economic Union - the extended version of the Customs Union.

The terms set in the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area (DCFTA), where AA becomes as an integral part, advertise immediate economic benefits in reduced trade tariffs. Though the figures seem impressive, but they don't take into account the cost of lost trade with Russia and CIS countries or transition expenses.

- The agreement eliminates about 95 percent of customs duties. Non-tariff barriers will go down by 35 percent compared to 2004. The Free Trade Agreement, as outlined by the European Commission,   will save Ukrainian exporters about €487million annually.

- Currently Ukraine exports $17 billion in export goods to Europe and $16 billion to Russia. By signing with the EU, they may have to forfeit their entire Russian export sector, which Russia estimates will immediately cost Ukraine 35 billion euros.

- The auto industry won’t be immediately affected, but Ukraine will be given a "safeguard" on EU car imports. Ukraine imports 41,000 cars per year from the EU, about 13 percent of the market.

- The IMF recommended Ukraine raise gas tariffs for domestic consumers. Ukraine already pays $400 per 1000 cubic meters of gas, and a hike in prices would be domestically unpopular.

- In order to be up to trade standards, Ukraine would have to adopt 350 laws and the EU would need to draft over 200,000 pieces of legislation, a process both timely and costly.

- Ukraine would need to changes its competition laws, which would break certain cartels and monopolies, which may upset some of Ukraine’s more powerful oligarchs and force them to ‘clean’ their money.

- Everything down to minute details– like the type of screws used on road signs to the width of gauges on railway tracks, would have to be switched.
http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/

Eurasian Economic Community
Russia, Ukraine’s main source of energy, loans, and trade, wants to dissuade its geographical partner from making a "suicidal" move towards Europe and sacrifice the option of joining the Russian-led Customs Union, that by 2015 will be extended to the Eurasian Economic Union, after a number of other CIS members, like Armenia, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan join the club.

Here’s what Russia and the CIS offer.

- Sticking with Russia would help guarantee a safeguard over their massive $20 billion in loans at Russian state-banks Gazprombank, Sberbank, VTB, and VEB.

- Unlike the EU trade deal, membership in the Customs Union would include military cooperation.

- Membership in the EEU will unite economic, legal, military, and customs services with Russia.

- Russia decreased its net grain imports from Ukraine by 33.5 percent in the first half of 2013, according to the Ukrainian Grain Associating, but may boost imports if Ukraine joins the Customs Union.

- Ukraine may be able to negotiate better gas relations with Russia, its main energy source provider. Gazprom, Russia’s state-owned oil and gas giant, says Ukraine is overdue in a $1.3 billion gas bill.

read all about it here

http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/

[ashbyclarke]

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?

It's not that simple, freedom of movement isn't something we want from any (pretty much)  EU states, certainly not Ukraine, we can't afford it, you should see what we have already, not to mention what's coming in the new year, it's hell, i have seen it first hand. Those who want wealth and those who have it don't integrate well quickly, if ever.

Crime in England is mainly from immigration, we don't need anymore problems.

They suck the life out of our health system, something we all have to pay for, it's free, good for us, but everyone who doesn't contribute wants it also, leaving those who do pay for it unable to use it. Friend of mine died last year due to that girl being shot by the Taliban, the doctors so excited by TV camera's they forgot about a young man with a head injury, he died, she lived. He paid, she didn't, go figure.

Free trade isn't a fair deal for Ukraine, they'd be fcuked over with the likes of Tesco and Asda taking all the local trade, everyone would become a poor employee and they would never know what an entrepreneur is.

I could go on !!!!

Timing just isn't right, and the EU hasn't the money to help them, England doesn't need more benefit scroungers.

I'd gladly accept the hot women though, but I assume the Ukraine people don't want selective entry 

[Manny]

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?

It's not that simple, freedom of movement isn't something we want from any (pretty much)  EU states, certainly not Ukraine, we can't afford it, you should see what we have already, not to mention what's coming in the new year, it's hell, i have seen it first hand. Those who want wealth and those who have it don't integrate well quickly, if ever.

Crime in England is mainly from immigration, we don't need anymore problems.

They suck the life out of our health system, something we all have to pay for, it's free, good for us, but everyone who doesn't contribute wants it also, leaving those who do pay for it unable to use it. Friend of mine died last year due to that girl being shot by the Taliban, the doctors so excited by TV camera's they forgot about a young man with a head injury, he died, she lived. He paid, she didn't, go figure.

Free trade isn't a fair deal for Ukraine, they'd be fcuked over with the likes of Tesco and Asda taking all the local trade, everyone would become a poor employee and they would never know what an entrepreneur is.

I could go on !!!!

Timing just isn't right, and the EU hasn't the money to help them, England doesn't need more benefit scroungers.

I'd gladly accept the hot women though, but I assume the Ukraine people don't want selective entry 

Nothing there I can disagree with either.

[el_guero]

The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.....  But to regard a Ukrainian on the same level as a Mexican is not only inaccurate but immoral.

....
http://un.ua/eng/article/479327.html

The PEOPLE of Ukraine do not want to join a GAY members alliance ... If you think they do, you HAVE NOT discussed this with them.

Some of the younger generation see the money in the EU, and watch the hollywood videos, and they think all Westerners are rich.  And they would like to be rich.  But, once you explain the Western value system, MOST do not want to see their country become like the west ....

Mexico?  A failed state?  No.  Just a terrible waste of NAFTA jobs going to the US of China.