Is Ukraine a Failed State?

[NS1]

They said that about the Baltics. They changed. The EU wore them down with promises of roads, infrastructure and a whole new gravy train for local politicians to jump on.

Okay, I caught that Manny.  I just can't believe it is coming from you.

 

[cufflinks]

http://news.yahoo.com/protests-show-putin-battle-ukraine-not-over-081859462--business.html

NO TO RUSSIA...

By Timothy Heritage

Related Stories

France invites Ukrainian opposition's Klitschko to Paris Reuters
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Protests by hundreds of thousands of people in Ukraine against their leaders' U-turn over Europe have sent a warning to Vladimir Putin that the battle over the former Soviet republic's future is far from over.

For once, matters may be largely out of the Russian leader's hands: he appears to have little left in his political armory to woo Ukraine, especially if the protesters oust President Viktor Yanukovich or persuade him to change tack again.

There is no sign of Yanukovich quitting. But rallies by about 350,000 people this weekend, at times marred by clashes, have unleashed democratic forces which, for all his political calculations, Putin cannot control.

Public threats, such as cutting off gas supplies to Ukraine which could disrupt onward supplies to Europe, would risk stirring anti-Russian sentiment and do Yanukovich no favors.

"Yanukovich's big 'nyet' to EU followed by brutality against protesters could trigger Orange Revolution 2.0, wiping smirk off Putin's face," Strobe Talbott, a former U.S. deputy secretary of state, said in a tweeted message.

Talbott was referring to the "Orange Revolution" against sleaze and fraud which kept Yanukovich out of power in 2004.

Under pressure from Russia, Yanukovich dropped plans to sign a free trade pact with the European Union last Friday that would have steered his country of 46 million closer to Europe and further out of the orbit of its former Soviet masters in Moscow.

Instead he decided to rebuild economic ties with Russia. The sweeteners offered by Russia are thought to include cheap credits, cut-price Russian gas and trade incentives, and few doubt Putin also threatened Kiev with crippling trade sanctions.

It was a victory for Putin, but one which could yet prove pyrrhic - obliging Russia to support Ukraine financially when its own economy is stuttering - or be reversed.

Putin may be able to do little more now than offer even better terms to Yanukovich than those agreed in secret to try to prevent another policy zig-zag by Kiev.

DREAMS OF BIG UNION THREATENED

Putin is unlikely to stop pushing Ukraine to join a Moscow-led customs union with Kazakhstan and Belarus which he hopes to develop into a political and economic "Eurasian Union" to match the might of the United States and China.

Without Ukraine, its huge market, rich mineral resources and proximity to the EU's borders, building the Eurasian Union into a major alliance is probably mission impossible for Putin.

"Russia's policy is, in fact, an important question mark now. Moscow succeeded in scuttling Ukraine's attempt to draw closer to the EU, but Moscow's firmly stated longer-term goal of getting Ukraine to join the customs union is now also distinctly less attainable," said Alex Brideau, a senior analyst at the Eurasia Group risk consultancy.

He said Moscow was unlikely to drop membership of the customs union as the main condition for granting Ukraine loans and reducing the price it pays for Russian gas.

"We continue to believe that Moscow will, for now, stick to its conditions on bloc-membership," he said.

Ukraine's government must find more than $17 billion in 2014 to meet gas bills and debt repayments. Including the private sector, Ukraine faces debt repayments of more than $60 billion, or a third of its gross domestic product.

Putin is banking on Yanukovich not being able to obtain enough money from other sources to pay the bills, making him dependent on Russia stumping up the cash. The International Monetary Fund has no loan program with Ukraine.

For his part, Yanukovich continues to shop around for the best deal, playing East off against West. He was heading for China on Tuesday in his search for funding and investment, at the same time sending a signal to Putin that he cannot be complacent in the battle over ties with Ukraine.

Ukrainian leaders have also said the decision to freeze moves towards Europe is just a "pause" forced on then by economic necessity and have left their options open.

PROTESTERS SAY 'NO TO USSR'

Putin will for now continue efforts to shore up the customs union and aim criticism at the EU and the Ukrainian protesters, partly to show his domestic audience that he is defending Russian interests.

On Monday, he described the protesters as "very well prepared and trained militant groups" engaged in an attempt to unsettle Ukraine's legitimate rulers, and hinted that they had been trained by outside actors.

It is typical of Putin to seek to deflect such problems on to the West and often, by implication, the United States.

But a visit on Monday to Armenia, where he made the comments, showed the problems he faces winning public support in persuading other former Soviet republics to bond again with Moscow again, more than two decades after the Soviet Union collapsed.

His visit to Armenia was intended to ensure the southern Caucasus country carries out its promise to join the customs union, secured at talks with Putin in September which turned Yerevan away from its pro-European course.

But hundreds of people protested against Putin's visit under banners declaring "Putin, go home" and, in a reference to the Eurasian Union, "No to the USSR".

For all his success in putting pressure on politicians to bend to his will, Putin may not yet have come to terms with "people power".

He also appeared to be caught off guard in 2011 when he ran into opposition and protests in Russia after his announcement that he planned to return to the presidency after four years as prime minister.

Military might, even as a last resort, is an unlikely option for Putin as it would risk a Western military response and all-out confrontation, even though Russia fought a brief war with Georgia in 2008 over two breakaway regions with big ethnic Russian populations.

"I have no information whatsoever that Russian troops should be prepared to enter Ukraine," NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters in Brussels, when asked about speculation that Moscow could be ready to send in troops.

But he added: "In that case, of course, it would be in contradiction of all international obligations."

(Additional reporting by Alexei Anishchuk and Hasmik Mrktchyan in Yerevan and Adrian Croft in Brussels; Editing by Giles Elgood)

Holy Phooking Rooskies - Putin wants to Invade Ukraine - Cold War 2.0???

Who does he think he is Ophookingbamadroneanator???

[ashbyclarke]

can we get back to the point this was a TRADE AGREEMENT, not full membership to the EU, that was being negotiated.
Ukraine would be decades away from being able to join the EU, and that would be AFTER they had implemented western type "rules". The ruling elite would have to clean up their money and practices for starters.....how long do you think that might take? 

Isn’t the truth of the matter that Ukraine is divided down the middle on this?

Half the country has heavy trade links with Russia and the other half would like trade links with the EU?

Problem is Russia doesn’t want to keep subsidising Ukraine if they want trade with the EU, seems reasonable, and the EU can’t afford, or are hesitant on the amount of support Ukraine required to implement agreement.

Ukraine it would appear hasn’t prepared quickly enough to enable the trade agreement be implemented economically, as I said early in the  thread if Ukraine had promoted it’s manufacturing to the EU via the obvious routes then they might have been able to pull this off, as it is it’s just not a good deal for them financially.

Additionally the FSU has a better growth prospect for the next 5-10 years, the EU is in a crisis as usual and it’s future is far from certain.

[lordtiberius]

No.  For every 1 CU supporter there are 3 EU supporters and 2/3 of Yanokovych's own party wants to be in the EU.  This would have guaranteed his re-election.  The truth is that Yanokvych probably is not even in control anymore.  Putin is controlling Yanokvych wittingly as a hostage and Azarov unwittingly by bunkering him and propping up Medvedchuk to play the part of a Quissling.

[2tallbill]

Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

KIEV, Ukraine — In the biggest demonstration yet after weeks of growing momentum, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians filled the streets of Kiev on Sunday, tearing down and breaking up a monument to Lenin in the city center and intensifying their outcry over President Viktor F. Yanukovich’s turn away from Europe.

Carrying blue-and-yellow Ukrainian and European Union flags, the teeming crowd here filled Independence Square, which has been transformed by a vast and growing tent encampment, and where demonstrators have occupied public buildings, including City Hall.



“Resignation! Resignation!” members of the crowd chanted, reiterating their call for the ouster of Mr. Yanukovich and the government led by Prime Minister Mykola Azarov. Thousands more people gathered in other cities across the country.

The giant rally reflected just how deeply roiled this nation of 46 million people has become in the weeks since Mr. Yanukovich said he would not complete political and free-trade agreements with the European Union that he had been promising to sign for more than a year.

With Western governments urging a peaceful and lawful solution, but no indication of any possibility of a compromise, the continuing unrest seemed likely to confront Mr. Yanukovich with several unpalatable choices, including a crackdown by security officers that many demonstrators say they fear but believe was inevitable.

The president could wait, hoping that increasingly cold weather and demoralization will eventually thin the crowds, but the continuing occupation of a large swath of the capital has already added a patina of weakness and indecision to the government’s growing unpopularity.

Heightening the tension is a severe and urgent economic crisis, along with Ukraine’s need to secure a financial aid package worth $18 billion or more. At the moment, that help seems most likely to come from Russia, but any agreement with the Kremlin is likely to spur further public fury.



Many Ukrainians view the accords with the European Union as crucial to a brighter future, with Western-style rule of law that could combat what many view as deeply entrenched public corruption and cronyism among the country’s wealthy elite. They also see the agreements as eventually offering better economic opportunities.

The accords were also viewed as a way to break free of the grip of Russia, which nearly a quarter-century after the collapse of the Soviet Union continues to exert heavy sway here, including complete control over Ukraine’s natural crucial gas supply.

Mr. Yanukovich’s comments that in retreating from Europe, he planned to restore relations with Russia — where he met on Friday with President Vladimir V. Putin — have only further inflamed the crowds.

There is a lot more read about it here

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/world/europe/kiev-teems-with-pro-europe-protesters-as-thousands-more-gather.html?_r=0

On Sunday, the sky over Kiev was gray, but temperatures were comfortably above freezing.

The demonstrators were old and young and middle-aged, from Lvov in the west to Odessa in the south, and from Dnipropetrovsk in the east to the country’s heart, Kiev itself. Parents held children onto their shoulders, students wore blue-and-yellow striped face paint, and volunteers handed out steaming cups of tea and other refreshments. They sang the national anthem and were blessed from the stage by representatives of all of branches of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, save for the Moscow Patriarchate, which is loyal to Russia.

“I think the people have dignity,” said Svitlana Zalishchuk, one of a small coalition of civic organizers who have been leading the protest movement from behind the scenes. “This is why they are here: not because they are against Yanukovich, not because they are for the European Union, but because they have dignity, and they want to live with dignity.”

The protest movement accelerated drastically after a violent and ill-conceived crackdown by the riot police on a small group of demonstrators more than a week ago. Scenes of young protesters being beaten and bloodied with truncheons, some as they lay on the ground offering no resistance, enraged a country that views itself as inherently peaceful.

[AvHdB]

Today, I stopped by a client in New Haven. Long conversation about everything, but he knows the former Soviet Union very well and has often been there, in fact this summer on a fellowship even though he is retired.

He commented that for Putin the "loss" of Ukraine would have done more damage to him personally and brought Russia to its knees if Ukraine signed the EU document. He pointed to the success of the Baltic states as well as Poland and how many Russian wonder why they can not have that reality. The legitimacy and power of Putin would have evaporated he believes. At first I thought no, but after thinking about his view point, I realize he has a very valid perspective.

Any ways it is food for thought.

[redroo]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/ukraine-is-failing-as-a-state/491462.html

Ukraine Is Failing as a State
13 December 2013 | Issue 5276
By Sergei Aleksashenko
Only two weeks have passed since Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych decided not to sign an association agreement with the European Union, preferring the "bird in the hand" offered by President Vladimir Putin to the "two in the bush" promised by Brussels.

It is too early to say whether that move will help Yanukovych retain power and win re-election to a second term in 2015, or whether he will even manage to serve out his current term. In any case, events in Kiev illustrate a few important points concerning the former Soviet republics as they vacillate on their future course.

First, Putin is no altruist. He is ready to promise not only Ukraine, but also Armenia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, billions of dollars in aid to stop them from linking up with the despicable West. But Putin's offer comes at a price. Each recipient must provide some service in return. For Yanukovych, that entails Ukraine's accession to Russia's Customs Union. When Yanukovych buckled under the direct threats from Putin, it seems he did not consider how his decision to reject the EU pact would be received at home.

Second, Ukraine has traveled much further along the path of democracy than Russia has during the post-Soviet period. As I see it, the principle difference between the two countries is that Ukraine has already had two presidents, Leonid Kravchuk and Viktor Yushchenko, who have failed to win re-­election. At the same time, however, this did not end in tragedy or with the country reeling into the abyss of chaos and anarchy.

Now Ukrainians understand that they can transfer presidential authority peacefully through fair elections and without the world coming to an end — a "point of no return" that Russia has yet to pass. At the same time, though, it is unclear whether Ukraine has conclusively passed that point. When Yanukovych came to power in 2010, I could not believe my Ukrainian friends' dire predictions that he would build an autocratic power vertical like in Russia. I thought the system of checks and balances was firmly in place there and would prevent it. But events proved me wrong. Hopefully, I will not be wrong again this time.

Third, as happened in Egypt and Tunisia, youth are leading Ukraine's movement for democratic principles and freedoms. These young Ukrainians do not remember the Soviet Union. They are not jaded or indifferent to their country's future, and they will not tolerate violations of their rights and freedoms as the older generation might. They want to build their own future in a European fashion and refuse to be appeased by unchallenging jobs at government ministries or state-owned companies.

Fourth, the Ukrainian police officers who beat peaceful protesters will inevitably attempt to save themselves by testifying against those who gave them orders, and so on up the chain of command. This could happen as early as the coming months, and it will serve as an object lesson for advocates of repressive measures.

Fifth and last, the political conflict only exacerbates Ukraine's already serious economic crisis. The country's economy is so unstable that it could collapse at any moment. The government holds its position in parliament by the slimmest of margins, and Yanukovych, who tries to pretend that he didn't know anything, now stands at a crossroads.

He can either undertake radical reforms that might win support from the International Monetary Fund but would likely elicit strong protests from the traditionally pro-Russian electorate. Or he could give in to the Russian ultimatum Putin's pet future project, the Eurasian Alliance, for the sake of the hefty gas credits and thereby lose any chance of re-election.

The Ukrainian authorities hope to go on "dodging raindrops" as long as they can, but experience shows that postponing the choice of an economic path is a sure recipe for collapse. That would turn Ukraine into a failed state, a country in which no government institution can properly carry out its function, even when it wants to.

It seems that both Russia and Europe are blind to the possibility of this political scenario playing out — and to the disastrous consequences it would bring.

Sergei Aleksashenko, former deputy finance minister and first deputy chairman of the Central Bank, is a visiting fellow at Georgetown University.



Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/ukraine-is-failing-as-a-state/491462.html#ixzz2nMmr3TxP
The Moscow Times

[AvHdB]

Hopefully MissleMe, does not mind me posting his message onto another thread. But it is interesting to see the some of the thinking and qoutes from two years ago, as well as this.

Ukraine join the EU?   LOL.  I'm pissing in my pants.  My friend who just went back to Belgium was the head honcho of the EU delegates that oversaw and wrote the protocols of EU's trade, visa, etc etc etc agenda.  There was no agenda to join EU.  Sure there was some trade agreement on the horizon. 

Her direct words.  "Ukraine will not join EU for another 50 years, the mafia, oligarchs, gangsters, banksters, and corruption must be eliminated".   

I asked why not just say "will not join for another 75 or 100 years or forever because it's going to take at least 4 generations to do what you said"

Her response  "Well we can't kill all hope can we?".   

I laughed but she didn't think it was funny.


Some of you on these forums are delusional.  Maidan was never about EU membership.  How do you join the EU when you have no money to peg your currency to the EURO?
That's the prerequisite.   The politicians used EUROMAIDAN as a means to excite the idiot plebeians,  oops I think I just offended some one, but I don't care. LOL   There was no money in the vault and EU was only going to offer 600 million Euros.  Russia offered more to keep this country from defaulting.   But USA had other plans.

Good god, all of this is readily available on the internet and some of  you are just too pig headed to even look it up.

And please don't call me a Ukraine/Ukrainian hater.  I've been married to my UKRAINIAN wife for over 14 years our child is 1/3 Ukrainian.  I've invested more than a million US dollars into this country.  I don't want to see this country go to war or go through misery.  I don't want to see my friends sons get pulled into the military.  But what I want has nothing to do with what will happen.  Some of you people have no idea what the root cause of all this is about.

What is the root cause you ask?    Socialist communism lasted god knows how many years.  (over 70 years  I presume).  USSR got balkanized.  Then the evil mofo hedge funds came in and started to prime and pump their money into a little worthless country called Ukraine.  In a matter of a few years, all the apartments the government gave to the Ukrainians or should I say USSRians became million dollar assets and all of a sudden the babooshkas and dyeahdooshkas were eating, sleeping shitting in million dollar assets.  Keep in mind these were paid off and these became raw assets. aka collateral for loans. 

Well this gave the people some illusion that their country was worth something.  On top of that the 70 plus years of USSR socialism depraved people of material goods so the plebeians, god forbid I used this ugly word again, had no immunity to any of the cash and crap coming into the country.  They went apeshit and grabbed whatever money could buy.  Just look outside your window.  Jeez I can count 3 MB,  5 Lexus Land Cruisers, a whole mess of Tata Rovers.  It's unreal for a country that has an average salary of less than 300 USD a month.  You simply can't take the socialism out of the Ukrainians in 24 years.   

All of a sudden everyone seemed to be a millionaire .  In reality this country is/was a poor farming country.  Then the banks started to pop up like mushrooms as the Ukrainians would say, and everyone was somehow involved in finance. 

Bad combo.  No immunity to materialism,  poor work habits, corrupt plebeians, corrupt politicians, mafia, gangster, oligarchs, violence, you name it the country had the worst concoction of any society.  On top of that cheap alcohol and depressive character did not help at all.

Look around you and count the number of banks that are still open.  It's stupendously unbelievable that there were more than 50 different bank in Ukraine.  That alone should tell you that the economy was underground and corruption was the main driver and engine of the society.  A healthy country could not have more than 5-10 different banks at most in any given city.   Then the plug gets pulled out and the country has a debt problem. 

Any of you thinking that, that is normal needs to have their head checked.  This country is getting what it deserves.  It took them 24 years to fail but the time to pay the pied piper is coming up.  When all is said and done 10% of the population will most likely vanish in 5-10 years, just like in Russia during the 90's.  Holodomor?  Here we go again!!!  The average Ukrainian is now spending well over 65% of his paycheck on food!  Hand to mouth!!!   History repeats itself because the public is stupid and elects the same officials into office.  Tymoshenko?  Jeez... a contractual killer as said by Milos Zeman still in the government office?   Porky?  A suspect of his family members death. 
Bottom line, politics is the face of the people.  Before they became politicians, they were Ukrainians.  Given a chance, almost all Ukrainians would do the same as the politicians are doing now.  This country was a failed state from the get go.  And no one wanted to fix the problem because there was always an easier way out.  Corruption via extortion, blackmail, shakedown, pay off,  etc etc.  Heck judges and cops are still up for sale and you wonder why it's so screwed up in Ukraine.   It's the same in Russia?  Sure but they aren't defaulting, at least not yet.   

Some of you need to read a little more about IMF, World Bank, OSCE, NATO, etc etc.  Read a book by Joseph Stiglitz on how evil IMF is and you'll wish that Ukraine would just default today so that the next next generation, the children that are yet to be born would have some kind of a future.   

There are so many people that just despise, abhor Russians on these forums.  I bet you half of them were looking at Russian profiles and writing to the girls before all this happened.  Then this thing happens and all of a sudden hatred pops up like gigantic mushrooms in the forest near Chernobyl.   Maybe  some of you poor sad sacks got rejected by beautiful Russian women, or maybe McCarthyism and the Red Scare is still in your DNA.  Whatever the reason, it's not good enough to be the divider. Ukraine can't live without Russia.  Just do the simple math.  Just look at Ukrainian products and see if anyone in the EU would ever want to buy such inferior products.   

 I have many friends in this country.  90% of my friends are Ukrainians.  They are all good hard working people. Not like those idiots and lazy *snip*s you see all the time, all day long.  They all have decent jobs.   10% of my friends are Russians.  Like the Ukrainians they are good, honest hard working people.  I can't distinguish one from the other.  They all look alike.  Talk alike and act alike.  I see expats in this country stirring up more crap than the natives by dividing the nation through bigotry.     It's sad.  especially when you know that they have access to English books and sites and can get information readily. 

I could go and on and on.  But I refrain. Some of you need to figure out the rest on your own.    Just remember, this country is becoming more and more socialist every day.  Ukraine is going back in time.   Life before Maidan is starting to look like paradise.   Let's just hope we don't end up in the stone ages after all is said and done.

[andrewfi]

I know nothing about this missileme fellow but his post above seems to be pretty much on the mark.

I took a little look back in the thread and saw something else.

I wrote that Ukraine was not a failed state and gave objective reasoning why it was not so.

Sadly, in just 18 months a middle class, relatively stable nation has lost control of its border, its money supply, its armed forces, its law enforcement, its income generation. It is hard to now NOT see Ukraine as a failing state. Failed - not yet, but not far off.

Sadly the reasons why this has happened are also stuff I wrote about at the time - but basically the interference of external actors (the EU and US). The only other times we have seen even moderately competent states fail it has also been due to the interference of external actors and, bugger me, but the same two!

At the time (November/December 2013) I had no idea of the malevolent interference already undertaken in Ukraine - that knowledge was still to come.

This affair demonstrates yet again how thin the veneer of civilization is. How rapidly we can lose that which we assume to be immutable. USAians need to look around themselves and to themselves and start to think about the path that they are unwittingly following because they are are only a few weeks or months away from such divisions, such ruination - all it takes is for a tipping point to be reached and even the most smug USAian must surely understand the fragility of their economic and social system.

[MissileMe]

I know nothing about this missileme fellow but his post above seems to be pretty much on the mark.

I took a little look back in the thread and saw something else.

I wrote that Ukraine was not a failed state and gave objective reasoning why it was not so.

Sadly, in just 18 months a middle class, relatively stable nation has lost control of its border, its money supply, its armed forces, its law enforcement, its income generation. It is hard to now NOT see Ukraine as a failing state. Failed - not yet, but not far off.

Sadly the reasons why this has happened are also stuff I wrote about at the time - but basically the interference of external actors (the EU and US). The only other times we have seen even moderately competent states fail it has also been due to the interference of external actors and, bugger me, but the same two!

At the time (November/December 2013) I had no idea of the malevolent interference already undertaken in Ukraine - that knowledge was still to come.

This affair demonstrates yet again how thin the veneer of civilization is. How rapidly we can lose that which we assume to be immutable. USAians need to look around themselves and to themselves and start to think about the path that they are unwittingly following because they are are only a few weeks or months away from such divisions, such ruination - all it takes is for a tipping point to be reached and even the most smug USAian must surely understand the fragility of their economic and social system.

Think of Ukraine like this:  it's like a girl that never had a chance to go through puberty.  One day she was born.  The next day she was a super model.  The third day, she became a whore.  The forth day she's a washed up druggie who just wants $$$$. 

Ukraine never had a chance.  It was too late to the game.  War cycles are peaking sometime in the next few years.  Money and credit crunch is already hitting the entire world.  BRICS are all tanking.  The world as we know might be coming to an abrupt halt because of bad politics.  Ukaine would have never made it in 25 years.  Look at Japan, it took them close to 55 years.   And they say that was miracle.  Look at Malaysia.  They modified the Japanese method and that took 22 years.  It's gotten to a good point but still needs work. 

Market corrects itself, think of it as an auto correction mode, that kicks in when politicians do stupid things and people follow these stupid ideas that are too good to be true.

24 years would have been enough to get onto track if the people weren't so doused in socialist communism.  The oldies would vote for anyone promising them an extra mere extra hundred UAH for their pension.  This perpetuated the horrible cycle and the same old crooks got into office, plundering, pilfering, extorting, blackmailing, you name it they did it for their own good.    Incidentally, Timoshenko apparently only owns 1  and I mean one, one bedroom apartment in Kiev.  That is what she wrote on her declaration form.  Oops. I guess she just conveniently forgot to write that penthouse in London. 

Ukrainians never understood anything about research, development, hard work, saying no to corruption, regarding life as precious, etc etc.  You know the things they teach you in kindergarten.   All this allowed evil to just multiply rapidly.   You all must have heard the word "FAVOR".     Every time someone does a favor a little bit of the country dies.  Do that 24 years in a row, well you have Ukraine.

I'm so surprised when I hear my friends ask me, how do we borrow so much money from the international community?   I tell them  "well.... you're using farm land and commodities as collateral.  Which is why USA is not too happy with Donetsk.  It's their land, not yours "    Inevitably they ask, what's going to happen?   I tell them cynically.  "You know, you, Ukrainians have a saying  "only a coward pays back a debt".    That is what you're trying to do now.    Only unlike during the Soviet times, when your economy was contained in Soviet Union,  now it's international because you borrowed money from the entire world via IMF and World Bank.  So this time around these guys are going to rip the skin off your back when the time comes.   You might have some serious food shortage problem down the road. "

  I explained to them about the Irish potato famine and how it was kinda similar and some of them still insisted that they have gone through the same old  situation.  I told them SOS is the acronym.  Only this time around no one is going to come save your souls because you have no money. 

Monsanto and their GMO is already here, they own so much of the farm land.  The Chinese own so much of the farm land too.  Soon all the collateral will be gone.  Then we're looking at a true failed state.

There is only one way to combat this, if you agree to anything I wrote, spread the word.  Teach the people. We are many.  They are few.  It only takes one strong, untouchable leader to turn things around. But that person can only be forged through hard times.   This is how the story most likely will end and with hope, I wish that it will be the new beginning. 

[TomT]

Mindlessly chanting "Слава Україні! Героям слава!" is as much as DUBs can manage; good luck teaching them about the importance of ethics for the survival of the society.

[Anteros]

Mindlessly chanting "Слава Україні! Героям слава!" is as much as DUBs can manage; good luck teaching them about the importance of ethics for the survival of the society.

Could you please explain how you are defining what a "DUB" is?  I've seen so many various definitions for this that I don't know for sure which one you mean.

In regards to ethics you only have to try to wait in a line with a bunch of Ukrainians to know what dog eat dog kind of people they are.  They have absolutely no manners or respect for normal order.

[AvHdB]

Monsanto and their GMO is already here, they own so much of the farm land. The Chinese own so much of the farm land too.  Soon all the collateral will be gone.  Then we're looking at a true failed state.

While I generally agree with the sentiment that you express could you provide some proof of what I put in bold from your qoute.

[TomT]

Could you please explain how you are defining what a "DUB" is? 

The uncertainty about the meaning of that acronym keeps me below moderation's radar.

[AvHdB]

On a different thread and in fact elsewhere this topic has come up so I have revived this one.

It features a few colorful former posters as well as rather sober opinions and thoughts.

Not entirely certain what the reality is today in Russia, but today most debt (mortgages and loans) in Ukraine are tied to either the $ or €. Before this was the case in Russia.

Ukraine is a failed state. Not the same.

Odd when I posted that as the title of a rhetorical thread most railed against the concept. People go to work and the markets stalls and grocery stores are filled across the country. Hospitals meet the needs of those  needing services and children go to school or University. The quality of life is fine and there are youth groups for a variety of activities. Opera's and ballets around preformed in concert halls as well as significant pop concerts occur.

Some how failed states do not provide these things.

I consider Ukraine a stressed state. Primarily because it is resisting the Imperialistic adventures of its Eastern 'neighbour' bully.

It might be worth reviving the thread.

[B.B.]

On a different thread and in fact elsewhere this topic has come up so I have revived this one.

It features a few colorful former posters as well as rather sober opinions and thoughts.

Not entirely certain what the reality is today in Russia, but today most debt (mortgages and loans) in Ukraine are tied to either the $ or €. Before this was the case in Russia.

Ukraine is a failed state. Not the same.

Odd when I posted that as the title of a rhetorical thread most railed against the concept. People go to work and the markets stalls and grocery stores are filled across the country. Hospitals meet the needs of those  needing services and children go to school or University. The quality of life is fine and there are youth groups for a variety of activities. Opera's and ballets around preformed in concert halls as well as significant pop concerts occur.

Some how failed states do not provide these things.

I consider Ukraine a stressed state. Primarily because it is resisting the Imperialistic adventures of its Eastern 'neighbour' bully.

It might be worth reviving the thread.

Not particularly.  Ukraine isn't a failed state.  Somalia is a failed state.  Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia and had part of its territory annexed and its eastern region destabilized, and ongoing Kremlin interference in is politics, because: Russian Nationalism. 

There are guys on the board, including the proprietor, who, for various reasons involving "ethnicity of wife", or who are unmarried but are known for peculiar political views, etc., must take positions that are contra to reality.

B/B

[Contrarian]

On a different thread and in fact elsewhere this topic has come up so I have revived this one.

It features a few colorful former posters as well as rather sober opinions and thoughts.

Not entirely certain what the reality is today in Russia, but today most debt (mortgages and loans) in Ukraine are tied to either the $ or €. Before this was the case in Russia.

Ukraine is a failed state. Not the same.

Odd when I posted that as the title of a rhetorical thread most railed against the concept. People go to work and the markets stalls and grocery stores are filled across the country. Hospitals meet the needs of those  needing services and children go to school or University. The quality of life is fine and there are youth groups for a variety of activities. Opera's and ballets around preformed in concert halls as well as significant pop concerts occur.

Some how failed states do not provide these things.

I consider Ukraine a stressed state. Primarily because it is resisting the Imperialistic adventures of its Eastern 'neighbour' bully.

It might be worth reviving the thread.

Not particularly.  Ukraine isn't a failed state.  Somalia is a failed state.  Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia and had part of its territory annexed and its eastern region destabilized, and ongoing Kremlin interference in is politics, because: Russian Nationalism.

There are guys on the board, including the proprietor, who, for various reasons involving "ethnicity of wife", or who are unmarried but are known for peculiar political views, etc., must take positions that are contra to reality.

B/B

 
 

The pro-Putin apologists and propagandists don’t want to hear this stark reality yet you summed it all up very accurately.

It’s especially funny to hear an honest Russian called a “propagandist”. 

[msmoby]

There are guys on the board, including the proprietor, who, for various reasons involving "ethnicity of wife", or who are unmarried but are known for peculiar political views, etc., must take positions that are contra to reality.

 

Are some guys that 'hen-pecked'  ?

[Manny]

Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia

When was this forcible invasion? I'm surprised it never made the news.

Are you sure all America's forcible invasions of other countries the last few decades one after another all around the world isn't getting you confused? 

[B.B.]

Are some guys that 'hen-pecked'  ?

Finland-ized, methinks.

When was this forcible invasion? I'm surprised it never made the news.

It made the news, you are just being willfully ignorant because, as the Greater Manchester Spokesman for the Russian Federation, you must maintain a position that is, as I said, "contra to reality."

Are you sure all America's forcible invasions of other countries the last few decades one after another all around the world isn't getting you confused?

Not in the slightest.  One of the sad side-effects of Europe's peculiar and unfortunate habit of sprouting genocidal dictators was that you lot have required "forcible invasions" in Italy and France, etc.  We tried minding our own business after 1918.  Didn't work out.  It became clear that you lot need Adult Supervision, and so we have provided it ever since.  History teaches us that when we leave Europe be, tens of millions of people die.

Now, it seems that the pendulum has swung in a different direction and W. Europe seems intent on importing vast number of folks who belong to a homicidal, child-raping death cult.  Once can hardly expect a positive outcome there.  Looks like the Muzzies will be running the game next time.

Of course, your WHATABOUT-ism is merely a distraction and we both know that (a) it has zero bearing on the subject at hand, and (b) Russia invaded Crimea and continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine.

Oh, and please trot out "That Nuland woman!  She brought them doughnuts!"  That's one of my faves. 

B/B

[Manny]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

[Contrarian]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

In reality thousands of Ukrainians rose up in an organic protest, many were shot and killed on Yanukovych orders and the rest is history.

The USA wanted Sevastopol? Please. You were certainly wearing your tin foil hat to come up with that idea.

[Markje]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

In reality thousands of Ukrainians rose up in an organic protest, many were shot and killed on Yanukovych orders and the rest is history.

no yanukovich did not order the snipers on the roof. Who did is still a major unsolved mystery.

The USA wanted Sevastopol? Please. You were certainly wearing your tin foil hat to come up with that idea.

you are incredibly short sighted or incredibly naïve. Of course anyone opposing russia would want sevastopol. Its military strategic value is huge. Thats why its there

[Contrarian]

By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall. 

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

In reality thousands of Ukrainians rose up in an organic protest, many were shot and killed on Yanukovych orders and the rest is history.

no yanukovich did not order the snipers on the roof. Who did is still a major unsolved mystery.

The USA wanted Sevastopol? Please. You were certainly wearing your tin foil hat to come up with that idea.

you are incredibly short sighted or incredibly naïve. Of course anyone opposing russia would want sevastopol. Its military strategic value is huge. Thats why its there

First of all Russia was already in Sevastopol, the USA was not going to start WWIII in an effort to dislodge them, that is the most preposterous part of this theory.

Second we already had bases near Romania and elsewhere.

In regards to the claim of “strategic value” that is debatable. The Black Sea can be easily closed near the Bosporus which would render it a trap for all those Russian vessels.

[Contrarian]

Mark you can refer to B/B’s post 244 above if you have any further questions about the US presence in the region.

quoting B/B
Of course, your WHATABOUT-ism is merely a distraction and we both know that (a) it has zero bearing on the subject at hand, and (b)Russia invaded Crimea and continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine.


Unlike Russia we’re not there to steal land from FSU neighbors, we’re there to protect our partners in NATO who want to maintain their sovereignty.

Such as our partner in Romania.

http://www.c6f.navy.mil/news/exercise-spring-storm-2018-photos