To tell, or not to tell?

[TomT]

Maybe it makes it a little more special to know that you are not one in a series of many visitors.

That's true; no one wanted to be last in line at Nanning.


On a more serious note, I consider an army (no pun intended) of foreign suitors to be a red flag and boasting about it to be a deal-breaker. Having written that, I'm not too keen on guys visiting many girls, either.

[Ade]

Which you choose, VM or VO is irrelevant. What matters is that you choose the approach which suits you and the women you meet and you do so without being disingenuous.

There are men that will lie to women directly or by omission, women they know very well wouldn't be interested in meeting them if they were told they were one of many. The man's opinion is of this is irrelevant. You can think it's irrational or stupid. Irrelevant. What you do by lying to these women is remove their freedom of choice. You insult them and shows that you care little for their opinion. It shows some insight into the character of the man, and it is far from flattering. What kind of man thinks it's okay to start a relationship with a lie?

There are plenty of women that will choose to meet you if they know they are one of many. If these happen not to be the women you want to meet, then change strategy and just visit one that you do want to meet. If this falls to pieces while you are there, find and meet someone else while you are there.

Seems to me that many men are not only under resourced in terms of money and free time but are also lacking in dating skills and some core values; they look at women as objects to be manipulated and acquired rather than people that are their equals.

[Millaa]

I've been surprised to have been the first to visit some of them, or so they have said.

Каждый, кто не первый, тот у нас второй 

[patagonie]

Which you choose, VM or VO is irrelevant. What matters is that you choose the approach which suits you and the women you meet and you do so without being disingenuous.

There are men that will lie to women directly or by omission, women they know very well wouldn't be interested in meeting them if they were told they were one of many. The man's opinion is of this is irrelevant. You can think it's irrational or stupid. Irrelevant. What you do by lying to these women is remove their freedom of choice. You insult them and shows that you care little for their opinion. It shows some insight into the character of the man, and it is far from flattering. What kind of man thinks it's okay to start a relationship with a lie?

You are right it starts right the first letter you send. I agree equality is very important : every people man or woman should have a personnal site with such dashboard  :
how many total outcoming mail. daily/monthly
how many total incoming mail. daily/monthly
How many total incoming call
How many total outcoming call
in travel for a partner yes/no
Welcoming now a partner yes/now
Actually in date  yes/no
how many day since last sexual relation (perhaps how many hours since last sexual relation (what do you think Ade, they are many erotomaniac, it can help women to sort them ?))

I think that is the real freedom : everybody should know what everybody is doing. It will be easy  with such dashboard. So everybody can really choice, me too i want to really choice and have a perfect picture of who she is (sorry i must use the past because now i am engaged).

There are plenty of women that will choose to meet you if they know they are one of many. If these happen not to be the women you want to meet, then change strategy and just visit one that you do want to meet. If this falls to pieces while you are there, find and meet someone else while you are there.

Seems to me that many men are not only under resourced in terms of money and free time but are also lacking in dating skills and some core values; they look at women as objects to be manipulated and acquired rather than people that are their equals.
Quite the opposite. To maintain the WM process you need time and money. They are of course better in dating because dating skills improve with time spent with women. The pitfall i agree  is men who are in a candy store and cannot never choice. Of course as soon as you like a woman during a VM you SHOULD make a VO to know her better. Many VO force the issue to pick up  the woman,(one week wonder) because they don't have enough money time, maturity, experience with women with many train wreck at the end.

[patagonie]

It has been my experience that if a woman discovers you are not just there for her she will not take you seriously. She will think that you are there on a"shopping trip" and are not emtionally commited to finding "the one".

Honesty isn't always the best policy 

If you are seriously looking for a wife I think it has to be.

You are confusing time of engagement. Many guys are engaged too early. Leslied said it perfectly. Many VO want to be involved emotionnaly BEFORE the trip. Which is good policy only if you are writing to a genuine lady, totally commited to settle down, who have no big issues, who has realistic expectations,  who will have chemistry with you, as long as you have chemistry with her. So it is many parameters and you assume barely all the risks. It is why Ashbyclarke says this is not perhaps the best policy.

And you can test chemistry ONLY when you put your feets on her land.

[andrewfi]

It has been my experience that if a woman discovers you are not just there for her she will not take you seriously. She will think that you are there on a"shopping trip" and are not emtionally commited to finding "the one".

Your experience has allowed you to be misled.

Remember that that whatever romantic overtones you may choose to overlay your wife hunt with you are seeking a candidate for the position of the next Mrs mhr7.

This means that you are starting out with a field of approximately 4 billion women. You will end up with just one.
You can not reasonably make that selection by email or even voice chat or telephone (although some fancy that they can do so and one would be foolish to disregard the distorting effect of blind luck and/or low standards).

Thus the wise wife hunter treats his initial visit as an interview process, weeding out the unsuitable candidates in short shrift and creating a short list for follow up. The follow up may take place on the same visit, it may not, depending upon how much time one has or how effective one is at manageing time and people.

Once one has found a suitable target the process of pitching woo begins.

This is normal and natural behaviour, albeit compressed into days not weeks or months. In the Western world we call this process 'dating'.

The problem is that intelligent women motivated to export themselves by marriage know that they probably have only one chance at meeting a bloke willing to take them away from their particular version of Mud City. The women are also trained and coached by friends and agency staff as to the types of guys who are looking for foreign wives and, no matter how one wants to put it, many, many foreign wife hunters are NOT at the head of the class when it comes to social skills. Women are thus trained to play upon the insecurities of men.

In trip reports on this forum we can see this effect all the time, including right now in a current report.

So, the women, knowing they have only one shot will do all they can to maximise the value of that chance. They will try to persuade you to see only them, that they love you already, that an emotional attachment that is wholly bogus exists and is strong. You will be told that you are not the serious man.

In truth the serious man is most likely the bloke seeing many women - he is motivated, resourced and ready.

Here's a point to ponder, noted by others up thread: If a woman tries to limit your choices before you have met or just after meeting, then dump her and move ahead. She has just shown that she is not worth continuing with. It is possible that you may move away from a genuine woman but the odds are that you have not.

Do not play their games - follow your own best interests.

[patagonie]

It has been my experience that if a woman discovers you are not just there for her she will not take you seriously. She will think that you are there on a"shopping trip" and are not emtionally commited to finding "the one".

Your experience has allowed you to be misled.

Remember that that whatever romantic overtones you may choose to overlay your wife hunt with you are seeking a candidate for the position of the next Mrs mhr7.

This means that you are starting out with a field of approximately 4 billion women. You will end up with just one.
You can not reasonably make that selection by email or even voice chat or telephone (although some fancy that they can do so and one would be foolish to disregard the distorting effect of blind luck and/or low standards).

Thus the wise wife hunter treats his initial visit as an interview process, weeding out the unsuitable candidates in short shrift and creating a short list for follow up. The follow up may take place on the same visit, it may not, depending upon how much time one has or how effective one is at manageing time and people.

Once one has found a suitable target the process of pitching woo begins.

This is normal and natural behaviour, albeit compressed into days not weeks or months. In the Western world we call this process 'dating'.

The problem is that intelligent women motivated to export themselves by marriage know that they probably have only one chance at meeting a bloke willing to take them away from their particular version of Mud City. The women are also trained and coached by friends and agency staff as to the types of guys who are looking for foreign wives and, no matter how one wants to put it, many, many foreign wife hunters are NOT at the head of the class when it comes to social skills. Women are thus trained to play upon the insecurities of men.

In trip reports on this forum we can see this effect all the time, including right now in a current report.

So, the women, knowing they have only one shot will do all they can to maximise the value of that chance. They will try to persuade you to see only them, that they love you already, that an emotional attachment that is wholly bogus exists and is strong. You will be told that you are not the serious man.

In truth the serious man is most likely the bloke seeing many women - he is motivated, resourced and ready.

Here's a point to ponder, noted by others up thread: If a woman tries to limit your choices before you have met or just after meeting, then dump her and move ahead. She has just shown that she is not worth continuing with. It is possible that you may move away from a genuine woman but the odds are that you have not.

Do not play their games - follow your own best interests.

Well said !   

[andrewfi]

Thanks Patagonie.

[GuppyCaptain]

Indeed!

[Isthmus]

Interesting to see which of our members that are married that did a "visit many" trip. I reckon not many....... 

Add me to the list that did WMVM.

Russian women are quite used to "competing" for the attention of the best and most successful men. 

If they're not willing to "compete" for you then I'd take that as a serious "red flag".

In my opinion WOWO is a very risky proposition.  In many repsects you are putting yourself in a very difficult psychological position.  All that money, time and emotions directed at one person pre-trip may compell you to overlook some personalty or behavioral flaws that will eventually be fatal to any long-term relationship.  I've found the WOVO crowd are often the same ones you find saying "She'll change after she gets accustomed to her new home". 

No she won't.   

If a man has trouble with the financial & time aspect of international dating they better quit right now. You can't let that cloud your judgement.

Last year I splashed in the FSU pool for the first time, was a WMVO scenario, I was comfortable with that approach, ultimately things didn't work out (but was no train wreck, spent a month together), don't regret anything about it, least of all money spent, its only money, that comes and then goes and comes again. Plus, I just regard it as an interesting holiday and a learning experience, if you look at it like that you can't go wrong. I don't have an issue with WMVM approach, its just a different technique. Both methods have their good and bad points about them.

If your communication in a WMVM situation isn't detailed enough you may well be missing deal breakers that could have easily been uncovered by more in depth communication earlier on. Having detailed communication electronically can cut out a lot of unsuitable prospects.

I am taking my second dip in the FSU dating pool now (and still date locally), have made arrangments to meet one lady, haven't yet decided if I will meet any others as well. In two minds about it ...

[andrewfi]

Isthmus, if you are seeking a wife andyou are going to another country to do so then you need to NOT be on vacation

Every action we take needs to have a single purpose and a desired outcome. When one accepts compromises as to purpose and outcome the results are likely to be suboptimal.

If you are looking for a wife just make contact with a list of people whose initial specifications seem in accord with yours. Meet the women. see if they suit your purpose (she will be doing the same thing with you).

When you have your short list get closer and then look to a single candidate.

The initial approach can and should be single minded. Don't make 'connections' before you go over. Just sort out the basics. Who you are, what you seek, what you need and when you will be in town and probably the time and place for your initial meeting. Meet with several women per day in the same location. I bet that you know with each woman within a few minutes if there will be a second meeting. Don't forget that she will have made her choices about you in the first few minutes of your meeting as well so quite a few of those initial contacts will say goodbye to YOU!

[Isthmus]

Andrew, that sounds a lot like speed dating, don't do that here, not planning to do that abroad. Frankly, you need more time to get to know someone. I am not philosophically tied to meeting just one woman but I wouldn't meet more than 2-3 I suspect.

[ashbyclarke]

Andrew, that sounds a lot like speed dating, don't do that here, not planning to do that abroad. Frankly, you need more time to get to know someone. I am not philosophically tied to meeting just one woman but I wouldn't meet more than 2-3 I suspect.

If you use reputable dating sites, and apply commen sense then you should be fine using that route.

I've never used the visit many option, I'd be worn out and bored of my own stories after a day or two 

Usually I only visit for 4-5 days, long weekends as I call them, and I'm on a plane within 3-4 weeks of initial contact.

Key really is to apply common sense, it's not that dissimilar to dating in your own country, just a little extra travel 

[Isthmus]

If you use reputable dating sites, and apply commen sense then you should be fine using that route.

I've never used the visit many option, I'd be worn out and bored of my own stories after a day or two 

Usually I only visit for 4-5 days, long weekends as I call them, and I'm on a plane within 3-4 weeks of initial contact.

Key really is to apply common sense, it's not that dissimilar to dating in your own country, just a little extra travel 

I don't use any pay per letter sites and frankly I haven't had issues with whether the girls are genuine or not, that is relatively easy to figure out, its really just a question if you are suited to each other or not, something that can only be properly worked out by spending a fair bit of time together.

[ashbyclarke]

If you use reputable dating sites, and apply commen sense then you should be fine using that route.

I've never used the visit many option, I'd be worn out and bored of my own stories after a day or two 

Usually I only visit for 4-5 days, long weekends as I call them, and I'm on a plane within 3-4 weeks of initial contact.

Key really is to apply common sense, it's not that dissimilar to dating in your own country, just a little extra travel 

I don't use any pay per letter sites and frankly I haven't had issues with whether the girls are genuine or not, that is relatively easy to figure out, its really just a question if you are suited to each other or not, something that can only be properly worked out by spending a fair bit of time together.

Get on a plane and find out, from my experience I've always got on well with whomever I've been talking with, even if you don't click you can still enjoy a few days together, it's not all about sex and marriage, is it? 

[andrewfi]

Isthmus, now, it is NOT speed dating. But you are, of course, free to make another trip in a year's time and another one a year later.


If you have the free time that AC has then go his way, that works too - it is kinda like what I used to do a long time ago in another life.

Identify your purpose and, if you want to be inefficient/ineffective understand the drawbacks of what you are doing and understand that you can do things better a different way but that you choose to not do so.

[Isthmus]

Andrew, I can travel more than once a year, can take the time off and have the means to do it. Also, I am not fixated with meeting a RW I am happy to date locally as well. PS - I wouldn't be getting on a plane unless I thought there was a half decent shot at things working out, but you can only get to that point by lots of communication electronically before meeting.

[kievstar]

If people are really serious about marriage stop your career and go and live in country.  That is the easiest way.  If you have money issues, then that is not an option but very few guys with money issues have 10 year marriages with RW anyways. 

I like the never write visit many until you find the right one.  But when you find the right one stop seeing others as any normal RW will never see you again if you see a RW after meeting her.

Skyping and email is very old and outdated.  Does this method even work in todays age?  Maybe worked in 2011.  Seems like the expats and the guys visiting many doing very well.  Seems like the visit one guys are getting crushed.

[shakespear]

It has been my experience that if a woman discovers you are not just there for her she will not take you seriously. She will think that you are there on a"shopping trip" and are not emotionally committed to finding "the one".

I'll say again, women in the FSU are USED to competing for the attention of the best and most successful men.  The way they dress makes that fact completely obvious.  If she's not willing to compete for you, then it is a red flag. 

[jamaica_live]

If she's not willing to compete for you, then it is a red flag.

Elaborate it, please. 

[shakespear]

The problem is that intelligent women motivated to export themselves by marriage know that they probably have only one chance at meeting a bloke willing to take them away from their particular version of Mud City. The women are also trained and coached by friends and agency staff as to the types of guys who are looking for foreign wives and, no matter how one wants to put it, many, many foreign wife hunters are NOT at the head of the class when it comes to social skills. Women are thus trained to play upon the insecurities of men.

So, the women, knowing they have only one shot will do all they can to maximise the value of that chance. They will try to persuade you to see only them, that they love you already, that an emotional attachment that is wholly bogus exists and is strong. You will be told that you are not the serious man.

This is a refrigerator door quote.

Neophytes, print it out.  Tape it on your mirror or refrigerator door.

Read it at least 5 times each day. 

Fantastic analysis Andrewfi ! 

[shakespear]

If your communication in a WMVM situation isn't detailed enough you may well be missing deal breakers that could have easily been uncovered by more in depth communication earlier on. Having detailed communication electronically can cut out a lot of unsuitable prospects. 

You can learn more about another person in 15 minutes of face-to-face communication than you can in 2 months of e-mail correspondence. 

[patagonie]

Andrew, that sounds a lot like speed dating, don't do that here, not planning to do that abroad. Frankly, you need more time to get to know someone. I am not philosophically tied to meeting just one woman but I wouldn't meet more than 2-3 I suspect.

You are not going to date multiple (VM) to know someone. you are meeting to :
FIRST : know if she passes the physical attraction test, and her to know if she is attracted to you physically
SECOND : assess the chemistry, for a woman it is generally defined as a "vibe" she has with you.
AND
THIRD, spending more time together, if the two firsts steps are successful, you are getting to know each other.

The first minutes, or the first hour of a date is to check the two firsts steps (but many men are confused with  the interest level of the woman).
The second meeting you start to know each other.
The problem with a VO is that a genuine woman, if she is not attracted to you, can continue to date you because she will consider you as a guest. Some, who don't really have a vibe with you would enjoy to meet a foreigner, have a good time with him (go out, restaurant, bowling) without any bad intentions. The guy will need time to leave the fog, because generally he is stunned by the beauty of the lady and the numerous qualities of FSU women. In fact he is just loosing his time and his money.

[patagonie]

Andrew, I can travel more than once a year, can take the time off and have the means to do it. Also, I am not fixated with meeting a RW I am happy to date locally as well. PS - I wouldn't be getting on a plane unless I thought there was a half decent shot at things working out, but you can only get to that point by lots of communication electronically before meeting.

You can think that CERTAINS things will work out, by internet yes.
 But you have NO guarantee that these certains things will work as it had been written  .
And many things which had not been written could absolutely screw up your relationship.

[patagonie]

It has been my experience that if a woman discovers you are not just there for her she will not take you seriously. She will think that you are there on a"shopping trip" and are not emotionally committed to finding "the one".

I'll say again, women in the FSU are USED to competing for the attention of the best and most successful men.  The way they dress makes that fact completely obvious.  If she's not willing to compete for you, then it is a red flag.

I agree with Shakespear here.
And mhr7 you are just repeating what women are telling you, swallowing for real what they tell you. IT is just, as Andrewfi told you, a way to have much power on you.
And even in the west it is just shit.
Make just an experience guy : go on a trendy bar alone, wait half an hour and start to try to pick up some girls. Tell me the result. Now come with one or two friends who are  hotties and do the same. Do the test, and tell me more after.

They like to compete for men because it improves their wealth, and they want to be with a high value man. Go to the other forum and read "Re: Just friends ??" and tell me why the second women is still writing to this man.