Married Guys: Tell Us How You Did It?

[NS1]

I thought Manny would start this as it was ( his Idea)
But Was good question!
To married guys or guys about to be married.
What did you do, what would have you done different?

How did you do it?

[RG]

This is a good question; I suspect one that I will have a few things I wished I had remember after posting. 

What did I do (ultimately)? 
I did a lot of "homework" before jumping in full blast. 

I looked inside myself and at my own past to be as honest as possible in what works for me and what does not, not an endless list but instead a handful of things I really must have to be in a reasonably healthy, committed, happy relationship, and a handful of things I simply could not/would not tolerate, no matter the rest of the package.

I tried to limit "fluffing" reality into a prettier but unrealistic picture.  I looked beyond the criteria for dating someone, but thought about where I expect to and would like to be in 5 years, 10, 20, from location to lifestyle, instead of simply considering someone that would be fun to date casually but inevitably goes nowhere.  The difference between "would I date her?" and "Would I expect a serious long term future as a real possibility?" can lead to entirely different answers.

I threw out all of the rubbish allowing for cultural excuses for various important behaviors.
I stopped wasting time on pretty pictures with those who were unlikely to be lifestyle compatible in the longer term.
Instead of always asking completely direct questions about my "must and must nots," I asked some, but also just listened and paid attention to how they reacted in different situations, discussions, with different people, etc. 

If in doubt or stuck in fantasy-land, I closed my eyes, ignored whatever picture(s) or experiences might be facilitating the "fantasy," ignored all physical attributes, and asked if I would be truly interested in this person, knowing all of the personality that I did currently, if she lived down the block and was an average looking American woman.  Again, not just for dating, but did I see possibilities further down the road, or did some things jump out that made it much more likely that it might make for a fun number of dates, but unlikely to go beyond that?  This wasn't always a straight-forward thing, as let's face it, you're going off of limited information, and it does take time to get to know someone, but sometimes you may already know more than you really need to, once you try to remove the illusions and fantasies.

I also of course, got lucky to an extent as well, and had a valued friendship develop into more. 
I jumped on a plane fairly quickly once we saw potential for more, had next trips arranged pretty quickly, and not a single day passed without communication.
I spent as much time as possible overseas, coming as close as possible to "normal life" while there, without many "vacations" involved.  Don't be wishy-washy, do or do not.

What might I have done differently?

I might have gotten out of the "candy shop" sooner.  This wasn't so much in actions as it was in simply wasting time for a while, and it's not always easy to see when you're in it.  I definitely wasted some real time in communications with some that were obviously nowhere near a good long term match, but thankfully got out of it.

I might have spent some more time talking to more "friends only" type penpals or in person.  I did do this and made some friends along the way, and maybe it wouldn't have changed much - it was great to put some real perspective on different behaviors, versus expected behaviors. 

There is also a difference in that no matter how much "research" you do, you may fall for some of the generalizations while sure that you aren't. 
This one is tougher to explain, but a part of it is in understanding actual disposable income and relative lifestyles, as well as simply being there and seeing normal life for many people.  Things like owning an apartment outright, or having family that does, versus a mortgage, actual cost of living and disposable income versus raw numbers.  Do all of us own a summer cottage somewhere, and own our home(s) outright?  There are other things, such as cost of higher education, insurance, and intangibles that make direct comparisons of the lifestyle of your pen-pal or friend and yourself not as straightforward at times.

[doc holiday]

My fiancee and I have had one major misunderstanding during our time together.  After we had been together for a few months she told me that she wanted to stay past the time her visa would legally allow her to stay in the US so that we could be together.  I knew it was a bad idea for her to jeopardize her future immigration status in this way and was thinking about our long-term prospects so I cooled off a bit and became more distant.  It turns out she was telling me that to gauge how serious I was about her and she had intended to go back.  I did not know this.  She did not know that I was committed to here and wanted to bring her back to the US to be with me legally and forever. 

Although I have made numerous mistakes and could have done many things better, the only thing I know for sure I would have done differently and would have done better was communicate early on and understand why she did/said things she did/said and made sure she understood why I was doing everything I was doing.  It took us a lot of conversations to sort this out and fully understand each other and I am fortunate that it ever did work out.  When she saw how excited I was to see her again and how much more open I was she believed and understood the reasons behind my actions, but I should have made sure she knew that from the beginning.

If I was starting this process all over again there are a few things I would do differently.  I would have waited until after I finished my PhD because there were weeks when I had almost no time to devote to the process.  It is hard to keep momentum going when you have such little time to devote.  I also would have used the information I gathered from this site differently and treated most of it as guidelines instead of as rules in some cases.  For example, if a profile seems fake or responses seem fluffy or any of the 'red flags' appear I would not be so quick to judge.  The cost of investing a couple of extra hours to find out for sure is much less than the value of keeping an open mind and possibly making a real connection.

[mendeleyev]

How did I "do that?"

Learned the culture and took my time. She was not in a rush and had I pushed we wouldn't have married. I was busy and didn't have time to rush so perhaps that was a factor in my favour. But importantly, I was consistent and that seems to be key to most RW.

I was already attending Orthodox services with the intent on converting before we began dating but that was also a "must" in her mind so it is a good thing that my mindset was the same. That was fine with me because it had become a "must" in my mind as well. At the time I wasn't sure if I would be allowed to stay in Russia or be assigned to another part of the world so after getting a positive "thumbs up" from her family priest, her mother who was a Moscow University professor at the time, called the office of Patriarch Alexi II and our marriage interview was done by an auxiliary bishop at the Patriarch's office and within a week Patriarch Alexi had signed a letter granting us "economy" (permission) to be married at any Orthodox church in the world. We didn't need that letter as I was re-posted to Moscow and we married there but his letter is one of our most cherished keepsakes from that time period, especially since he has passed (memory eternal!).

Living in Moscow gave both of us time to observe each other at great length. We used courtship as our method of dating so I was included in many of her family events, such as spending time at their summer dacha in Volgograd, traveling on trains and buses to spend holidays with her extended relatives outside Moscow, Kaluga, Shakhty, etc. I was fully "vetted" by everyone from elderly aunts to younger cousins and middle aged Uncles. I made some missteps as of course none of us are perfect, but apparently passed the tests.

Her friends had a say in her decision and I was well aware as she is straight forward and let me know that if her priest, her family or her friends disapproved then we'd have to discontinue our courtship. Fortunately many of her friends worked in media and several I worked with or near on a daily basis and had formed great relationships. I gained a second "family" made up of her friends.

I got to observe her at great length and once my eyes adjusted to focusing on more than just her legs, liked what I saw on a consistent basis. We had our bumps in the road but the lengthy courtship allowed us to make long term evaluations and to evaluate character in real life rather than projecting desired character attributes on someone you really don't know that well.

As RG said, if I think of other points I'll add those later.

[Zoomzoom]

That sounds wonderful mendeleyev, thanks for sharing.

[Ade]

I went there, we met, I was open, honest and didn't try to be something or someone I wasn't. I didn't try to "game" and manipulate. 
By honest and open, I really mean that. I told her I liked her and we should enjoy the ride and see where it went and, when I eventually fell in love, I told her so. Guys that think they give up some kind of advantage by showing their true feelings are, IMO, immature and insecure.

The key is not to force it. If you are a good match, it should be pretty obvious and it'll just work. If you're not, don't force it and don't put compatibility issues down to "cultural differences"; politely move on. Also, lying to women and stacking them up in some kind of queue so you can choose the best of a bad lot in retrospect after having met half a dozen or more is a losers game. Meet a woman, judge the situation on its merits; you should know if you have the potential to be the prefect match, if not, be honest and move on politely, otherwise politely drop any others you'd planned on meeting. A man only needs 1 perfect match.

A lot of the problems guys face is that they are so desperate to make it work with someone/anyone that they force it with women that are not a good match. Those are the guys that will fail miserably sooner or later or, at the very least, end up with a relationship that's just "adequate".

Like a lot of European men, I had the advantage of bringing my wife to my home for 3 months at a time. Also, she was in an employment situation where that was feasible. We spent 6 months together over an 18 month period before we were married.

[Bill]

As I've said before I think my way works best. I spent 2 years in Moscow teaching English although I had only planned on 1 year. Didn't go there looking for a wife. I was introduced to my wife by a mutual friend who thought we'd be a good match even though there was a large age difference. It turned out to be a great match so I stayed 2 years. There was never any chance I'd stay much longer my wife knew this but she'd been outside the FSU a number of times so Canada wasn't much of a shock. 

[Muzh_1]

Mendy, feel free to move mine here.

Edit: Oops

[BC]

I 'did it' just traveling, not even looking for a wife.  Marriage was the last thing on my mind.

What would I do different? - would not have joined a RW related forum.

[Muzh_1]

I 'did it' just traveling, not even looking for a wife.  Marriage was the last thing on my mind.

What would I do different? - would not have joined a RW related forum.

BC, maybe because you were in Europe already, but for a guy like me the forum had invaluable information on visas (at the time), apartments, contacts, etc.

The other stuff? I agree.

[Manny]

I thought Manny would start this as it was ( his Idea)

I have many ideas I might not carry out myself. 

I'll give this one a shot and hope that other guys might give their potted experience too.

One day in 1998, when a travel agent, out of the blue, offered me a deal on Estonia (when I really fancied Reykjavik), I had never heard of it. When she said, "it used to be Russia", my eyes lit up like a Christmas tree (anyone who has read our book will know why) and I said, "Yes, book that" knowing absolutely zero about the place; only that I wanted to go. I arrived there knowing even less; and then my luggage got lost    Two days later, I felt at home and had made some friends already.

The first thing I spotted were the women. I was totally blown away. How could so many women that were 'just my type' be all walking around ten deep in one place? It was like I was dreaming!

I went home and told some of my pals about some of these amazing women I had seen. Not to mention some antiques I thought we could all make some money on.

November 1998 - in the sheet ice of the Baltic roads without snow tyres - the three of us filled a van with old second hand furniture that I thought we might be able to sell (the sofa was for shift sleeping on) and did a non stop drive there.

We got there, sold the stuff at a profit by simply pulling up at the [now gone] Kadaka market and opening the doors. 

We filled the van with saleable stuff and drove home again - the trip ended up in profit. But I had gotten the bug by then. Within a month or two I was back there trying to check out the women......

When that failed dismally, I turned to my new pals - this bunch of local Russian guys, for advice. I got several nights tuition on Russian women in those bars - from the Russian men.

Within a few days I was sitting in the (also now gone) cafe Moskva with a young blonde student from Moscow. She taught me my first few Russian words......

In true pro-dater style, I got fleeced for a new mobile phone, but baulked at the fur coat she had in mind and said no. She freaked. Something was wrong here. This wasn't what I was expecting.......

I turned to the internet. Estonia had a handful of free dating sites back then, and I met some women from there. Again mostly party girls and/or ones that I thought not terribly serious. Plenty of fun, but none you might want to take back home.

Rinse and repeat...... met quite a lot of women over the next year or two but mostly what I would call party girls. I used to accidentally on purpose, um..... bump into my pals, with their wives if I was lucky, with each girl. I would then get a text from one of the wives next day saying "Yeah..... not really - get rid of her". Locals see a trait, maybe an accent, maybe something - as you might with people from your own neighbourhood that speaks volumes on its own.

One night I was with the Russian chaps again, drinking again, and I expressed my thoughts about finding the future Mrs Manny in the Russian speaking world, and asked for their thoughts. What they said shocked me.

They said 'You don't want one from here. Too many foreigners throwing money about, it makes some women easy and others like the princess. Nobody wants to marry them after that. We all go home to get wives, after we have had fun here". By home, they meant Russia. They went on to say I shouldn't "mess about in satellite states" and "if you want a Russian woman - go to the source: Russia" All nodded in agreement. That was the pearl of wisdom I was missing.

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now.

So off I went and fired "Russian women" into Google (not wise), did some predictable pay-per-letter stuff with women in Ukraine that wasn't getting me anywhere fast. Another satellite state - lets listen to the advice and stick with the source: Russia. I had Skype back then - it was invented in Estonia. I wanted a woman with a net connection and no unnecessary middle men. I was happy to pay an agency for some services, but I wanted direct contact before too long. I found one site that facilitated that, I spoke to the owner on the phone and he was on my wavelength. I then concentrated my search on Samara and Togliatti (Saratov at a push). Far way enough from the mail order bride 'industry' in Ukraine, far enough away from the Baltics, manageable from the UK without connecting through Moscow, and in Russia proper. The perfect location!

I had cut my teeth with the party girls and bullshit in Estonia and the Baltics over several years on and off, now it was straight down to business: wife hunting - without compromise or writing off any stuff as 'cultural differences'. If there was to be a misunderstanding, it will not be left to fester, and will be sorted out by my terp (the same type of service my wife offers to guys now - bloody invaluable to have an English speaking straight-talking RW on your side). I bagged myself a shit hot interpreter - any time I had the slightest issue in communication, I would send her the woman's number and she would call her, explain stuff and resolve it. Why all men don't hire such a woman as an essential item and choose instead to muck about with free Google translate is beyond me. You don't need translation - you need proper interpretation. Google cant do that!

When I eventually got serious, I carefully picked about 50 women as a starting point. Wrote them all, only three declined to correspond (high hit rate as I was in my 30's and not 50's or beyond). I started writing all, and oh my god, they all started calling me in the UK.    Usually at the most inopportune moments! I was having trouble keeping up without my notes. I had some conversations where I didnt know which one I was talking to and had to wing it - that was hard.

However, after about two very hectic months where it seemed this thing was my 24/7 all consuming job, and a lot of translation/interpreter dollars, I had whittled it down to about five that were a 'definate maybe' to meet and see what happened. All had internet, cell phones, and were fully contactable. Two then said that if I was there meeting others, then dont bother meeting them - good luck and goodbye if so. I very much admired that honesty and the self-respect behind it (I would very likely have done the same). I soon focused on those two. In hindsight, it was the sense of self-worth, and the lack of desperation that did it. 

We were quickly down to those two. Both favourites. One was younger (probably too young) and sold shashlik (kebabs) from a kiosk and had very bad english; and one was a year or two older, but a lecturer at the university and had rapidly developing English. In fact she had already started taking lessons - at her own expense - in the evening after communicating with me initially. The thirst for education appeals to me. We are seeing natural selection here even before any meeting. One of them is making it happen - one is yawning whilst selling kebabs. Kebab girl smoked and drank; lecturer girl did neither to any noticeable extent.

By now, the lecturer and I were calling each other every night, and SMS'ing all day. I had done an hour or three on the Russian linkword CD, had a Russian/English dictionary at my elbow, I was learning Cyrillic, she had English stuff from her teacher - green flags all the way. Communication was improving rapidly.

I had decided by now that I was going to meet them both. I suspected the university girl would have the edge over kebab girl, but time to book a flight to Russia and find out. I'll surprise them both....... and just arrive. I'll arrange my own accomodation and people to help so I remain in control of my itinerary. I'll figure out the logistics of each wanting a 'visit one' deal later. Somewhow...........

I decided against the surprise element, and emailed kebab girl to tell her I was coming to Russia to see her. She said "Oh Crap! That week I am on holiday in Italy with my family. But fly to Italy instead and meet me there........no visas for you, meet my parents while there." Nice. Big green flag.

I emailed the university lecturer, she said "Oh Crap! I am in Malta that week at English school. I want to learn more English whilst on holiday. Why not come to Malta instead and meet me there?"

Dates were a week or so apart. Malta and the lecturer was first. Italy and kebab girl were second.

So what to do...... multi stop Malta and Italy was the plan now.    No Russian visas! 

I booked Malta, I thought I would book Italy from there depending how it went. If no chemistry, straight out to Italy. If no chemistrty there either, start over with another 50 from another town. I was in no rush. I was fortunate that I had disposable income and time.

I arrived in Malta and all went very well. Very natural. No mobile phone shops, fur coat stores or over-priced sushi crap - just basic ABC boy meets girl stuff. How it should be. 

I thought I might delay Italy a few days and stay in Malta - this one had a radically different attitude to the others I had met. This one was normal. This one wasn't on the make. This one asked all the right questions.

This lecturer was a psychology lecturer. It became clear that if she was going to make an emotional investment in me, she wanted details. And way more than the generic stuff I had provided to date. Her probing questions about my childhood, parents, attitudes to life and past relationships took me right to the very edge of my comfort zone. I knew what she was doing of course, as I had done the same, but I did it over time through correspondence and phone calls. (I like to think I was much more subtle.) She preferred to do this face to face so she could watch my facial reactions to her questions in real time.

Amazingly, I passed her 'tests'.

As it was, I never got to Italy, and I let kebab girl down gently. She accepted it graciously and wished me all the best, and thanked me for my honesty. She sent me New Year and other occasional SMS's for several years after.

So then we try to get the future Mrs Manny a visit visa to the UK; show her Manny world. I wanted a year multi entry - which was unlikely then. We were together in Moscow when that sailed through. A year long multi entry. 

Cooking with gas now!

We spent almost a year visiting each other every four weeks or so; her me, me her, or both elsewhere in the EU (build up those Schengen visas). Yes, that cost an absolute fortune to do every few weeks, but I reasoned divorce would be more expensive if I got this wrong. 

We were married late 2006 - there is a topic somewhere here in the senior member room on that. We now have a young daughter who just started school. Six years later and all is well. My wife is now a British citizen; our daughter has dual Russian/British citizenship.

[mendeleyev]

Great story!

Lots of good instruction in that account.

[sharonhaber00]

What would I do different? - would not have joined a RW related forum.

BC, maybe because you were in Europe already, but for a guy like me the forum had invaluable information on visas (at the time), apartments, contacts, etc.

The other stuff? I agree.

Well, that is something that needs explanation. Are you suggesting that joining forum/s like this might harm ones chances?

[patagonie]

Manny great story.
I would know something. How had you proceed financially when you were visiting each other ? You said that it cost you a fortune and i believe you. Did you help her financially on a month basis ? Did you have enough vacation or did you took some day off ?
Thank.

Good point here :

"They said 'You don't want one from here. Too many foreigners throwing money about, it makes some women easy and others like the princess. Nobody wants to marry them after that. We all go home to get wives, after we have had fun here". By home, they meant Russia. They went on to say I shouldn't "mess about in satellite states" and "if you want a Russian woman - go to the source: Russia" All nodded in agreement. That was the pearl of wisdom I was missing.

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now."

[Manny]

Manny great story.
I would know something. How had you proceed financially when you were visiting each other ? You said that it cost you a fortune and i believe you. Did you help her financially on a month basis ? Did you have enough vacation or did you took some day off ?
Thank.

I covered her travel of course [beyond the first meeting]. I had no need to give her money as she had a good job already. I don't get why some blokes send women money every month really. They managed well enough before they met you. 

I am self employed so I just took a week or so off each month to suit my needs.

[sharonhaber00]

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now."

Nevertheless many hopefuls flock there... quite few try the "source".

[andrewfi]

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now."

Nevertheless many hopefuls flock there... quite few try the "source".

Of course while it is obviously true that the former MOB source Estonia, and before that the Czech Republic and now Russia and to a lesser degree Ukraine have 'dried up' the point that this emphasises very strongly indeed is that the willing ness of women to advertise themselves as brides for you guys is related to economics. Would not a bloke who was confident in himslef and with somthing 'of himself' to offer actually seek a wife from his own country or failing that, if fixated upon slenderness and foreign accents upon women in the Czech Republic or Estonia?

Why would a man actually seek to find a woman who he understood was, all things being equal, interested more in his economic standing than his personal attributes?

Real guys get on a plane and come pitch woo to real women, women who have choices and more than an empty belly to fill. Come visit Estonia.

[AJ]

I thought Manny would start this as it was ( his Idea)
But Was good question!
To married guys or guys about to be married.
What did you do, what would have you done different?

How did you do it?

What did you do,

Dated!
I met women locally and internationally. Met thru various ways, normal life chance meetings, or internet dating sites.

The OPs question is posed to those married and specific to the circumstances around that relationship-

So I simply went on a date with someone I had communicated with thru skype ,mailru vid chat , email ,and phone.
She happened to live further away then my city ,or even the next city.

Having lived in a few countries long term, and traveled extensively a good portion of my life with work, traveling just isn't a big deal at all,  nor do i consider it some burden, its just an adventure.
It is completely irrelevant to some date, and to me should bare nothing in either parties expectations.
It's a local date , or a date at some other locale (then its local to her right? ) with some prior communication.
It  could go well, or end in 5 minutes.
That's dating.
My plan was to see her, have our nice dinner date, and see where it lead.
I had a few weeks off ,so did she , and we could make plans from there.
if it went poorly we both would have gone our own ways simply on vacation.
Turns out we took the vacation together,
and even then we treated it as exactly that!  A couple of people who just met on vacation and spent a very short time together in a nice relaxed setting.
We knew it that isn't  a basis for marriage, and barely a spark to a full relationship.
 

 While we both made the best attempt at keeping expectations the same as a local date..
it doesn't kill the idea that we  both hoped some spark would be there in person, but knew it also takes time to know someone well. We also both knew that simple chemistry or isn't enough by any stretch of the imagination. The compatibility on key issues had already been gone over,but not in some interview question and answer style, we had spoken , a lot, and you naturally get a read on someone, what their guiding principles are, what's important in life etc.
but of course would continue to be evaluated by us both, as naturally occurs in couples dating?

what would have you done different?


While i wouldn't advise anyone to follow my path ..as i think its a good deal of luck,
I can't think of anything i'd do differently.
I was serious about a relationship, but also not dead set on one.
I wouldn't have thought anything  if we simply hadn't hit it off, nor cried in my borscht.I seriously doubt she would have either.lol  We simply would have picked up our dating life as anyone else does after a date that doesn't pan out.

We have only been married one year,and shes adapted here realty easily and we are having a wonderful life together, with many future plans.Honeymoon isn't over i suppose. 
The dating period  was a great time that we both remember quite fondly.
We communicated daily prior to meeting. hit it off as well in person as we had in communicating,
and it just continued to progress as naturally as you could expect when seeing someone a few weeks every 3 or 4 months.  We always felt comfortable together and like we had known each other for a long time.We remained in contact daily throughout that time,
until she relocated here and we married.

How did you do it?

I was just myself. I din't do anything special, nor expect anything.

I seem to have an infectious smile and odd ball sense of humor women can't seem to resist. 
 but really  have no idea why any of them, particularly my true gem of a wife ,
 bother putting up with  me long term.
(long term  for putting up with me ,would probably be about 3 days lol)
 

I wish anyone in this venture good luck,
and my best advice is to treat it as similar to local dating as you can, because after all its just boy meets girl.
The same applies if you run into a dating scenario that leaves you guessing, or seems improper or strange behavior,  the odds are if something seems off,it is off.
Move on to find someone right for you.

If its a possible miscommunication, clear it up right then and there, be patient , honest, direct and to the point,
and
expect the same in return!

[AJ]

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now."

Nevertheless many hopefuls flock there... quite few try the "source".

Of course while it is obviously true that the former MOB source Estonia, and before that the Czech Republic and now Russia and to a lesser degree Ukraine have 'dried up' the point that this emphasises very strongly indeed is that the willing ness of women to advertise themselves as brides for you guys is related to economics. Would not a bloke who was confident in himslef and with somthing 'of himself' to offer actually seek a wife from his own country or failing that, if fixated upon slenderness and foreign accents upon women in the Czech Republic or Estonia?

Why would a man actually seek to find a woman who he understood was, all things being equal, interested more in his economic standing than his personal attributes?

Real guys get on a plane and come pitch woo to real women, women who have choices and more than an empty belly to fill. Come visit Estonia.

If i was single- Sure why not?
I lived in Prague a long time Andrew,sorry you'll see  no lack of confidence in dating Estonians. Lithuanians , Latvians ,Brazilians, Canadians or even yeap , those dreaded Americans!!!

A willingness to advertise via MOB is certainly mostly economics driven, I've no issue with that either.

 It ultimately still comes down to two people meeting, where that goes and whether they can sort out the degree economics  plays a role in their relationship(since it often does in domestically as well) is up to the individuals?

[Manny]

AJ, thanks for the posts, and nice to see you back here! 

It is my hope that this will become an instructional sticky topic for new guys.

The older members who *almost never* post like AJ are the ones I would really like to see on this topic.

[andrewfi]

AJ, I largely agree, the problem comes when, as is so often the case the blokes (but not the women) deny economics is a factor and thus make very poor choices or are badly misled by their unwillingness to do as you suggest.


I doubt that for most middle class blokes in North America that economic disparity is a significant driver for a match between two people. Perhaps it is why most blokes do not understand the issue - well off blokes have learned to deal with this stuff - it is a necessity.

[AJ]

well I am *old*  manny,
 that part is spot on!
 

[Manny]

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now."

Nevertheless many hopefuls flock there... quite few try the "source".

My wife got six of her girls married in a year or two after she started Ladagirl. All but one were from Russia (one was from Ukraine). All are still together. Some have kids.

Some guys are still buying $100 sushi in Kiev and wondering why they are getting nowhere. After half a dozen visits and no progress.

Some guys have met women [from Russia], married and had kids while others were still fixated on Kiev and Odessa and getting nowhere. 

[AJ]

AJ, I largely agree, the problem comes when, as is so often the case the blokes (but not the women) deny economics is a factor and thus make very poor choices or are badly misled by their unwillingness to do as you suggest.


I doubt that for most middle class blokes in North America that economic disparity is a significant driver for a match between two people. Perhaps it is why most blokes do not understand the issue - well off blokes have learned to deal with this stuff - it is a necessity.

Well being a middle class bloke i suppose i shouldn't have had any experience in that realm.
LOL
 andrew i see your point..
and yes it obviously  influences   men and womens decisions  in this.
To what degree and on which side that falls is subjective i suppose as well?

For myself I  was long term in europe ,  EE,  as well as brazil.
for whatever reason it just was never that hard for me to read the green, and i don't golf.
*shrugs*

[AJ]

Those messing about in Kiev and Odessa - without success - today might take heed of that advice. Life after the USSR follows a path for these countries. It was the same in Estonia then as it is in Ukraine now."

Nevertheless many hopefuls flock there... quite few try the "source".

My wife got six of her girls married in a year or two after she started Ladagirl. All but one were from Russia (one was from Ukraine). All are still together. Some have kids.

Some guys are still buying $100 sushi in Kiev and wondering why they are getting nowhere.

Some guys have met women [from Russia], married and had kids while others were still fixated on Kiev and Odessa and getting nowhere.

I've noticed that a little as well.
I think the fixated part is what is odd.
and certainly baffling when they return especially thru the same poor agency or whatever

The flip side  is I know a lot of sincere women in scam cities, so understand that
its down to  man being able to understand the women.No matter what city it should be pretty clear fairly quickly.
Most of the cases i've seen where a guy is being played , he wouldn't understand being played locally either,but yes his chance of running into someone that would use him is much higher in some areas..