Miracles do happen.

[d672]

Having said all of that, what I tell my guys is that once you have a date lined up with a lady (set up by a trusted friend), then you already know that you will be looking into her eyes in person very soon.  Once you are there in person you can begin the 5-step sequence as I described above.  You already have a date with her set.  You will be able to judge your chemistry for yourself soon enough.  But you will ruin first impressions by trying to force remote communications ahead of your face to face meeting.  Why?  Because the communication is only with a few of the senses, it is subject to misunderstanding, and then your first date is now spent clarifying what you meant or she meant in your letters instead of being present to experience if your chemistry is right.

 Hi Mark

 I agree with what you said about different approaches working differently for different people. Your strategy would probably be best for any guy who might not have the confidence to talk to women much or maybe is worried about going to a strange country and get around by himself. But to tell you the truth that was one of my favorite parts of the adventure.

 But I have to strongly disagree with what you wrote up above. I have gone to meet two women who I skyped with for 2-3 months before I took the trip. (The second one I married). When you are talking 5- 6-7 days a week for 2-3 months you've gotten to know each other pretty much well enough that there are no big misunderstandings by the time you meet! I could see it if you've only talked for a week or two before you made the trip, but I have yet to hear of a guy who talked to girl for a week and went off to go see her. Not from north america anyways!   

 With both these girls we already discussed what we were looking for, what our plans for the future were, what each of us expected from the other. The chemistry was already established between us. So our ground time together was not wasted by trying to find this out. It was spent seeing if this person was really compatible with you, something that I would say you would learn on a second trip in your program.

 By the time I made the trip it didn't feel like I was meeting a complete stranger and although there was a little bit of nervousness, it didn't really feel like I were meeting her for the first time. That I think is a huge advantage on the first meeting for both people... obviously you are much more comfortable being around each other and thus are more yourself.

 And of course there were others who I met on skype who I never went to meet. Why? Because obviously we didn't find that we had anything in common.  This is something a person would be spending time doing during their limited time in Ukraine in your program.   

 So I am just trying to understand why you feel that communicating on skype before you first meet is not a good idea. Everything I have experienced is opposite of what you said. Can you please explain how you came to these conclusions about pre-trip skyping?       

[d672]

Wow, shocker; I have to agree with everything that was said here!
You shouldn't be going to see someone you haven't even Skyped with


 ^^^^^^^^^^
Ok, now I'm confused. I just found one of your posts Mark. Its exactly opposite of what you are telling us here about not skyping before meeting her. Care to enlighten us?        

[AvHdB]

There seem to me so many different ways to have success (and failure). My feeling try to work what you feel comfortable with.

But the idea of NOT speaking before hand is almost a throw back to a distant time. With the woman I have met they uniformly have wanted to know more about me and I of them. Sorry snail mail/post cards are now distant memories.

While we can trust a winger or an agency in the end we have to meet. Some are prepared others do it on hope and intuition. Success to all!

[d672]

 I agree Av...

 We have the tools to do it, why wouldn't we use them to make the search easier? Its like going out to chop a tree down with an axe when you have a chainsaw sitting at home!

[Mark Davis]

Wow, shocker; I have to agree with everything that was said here!
You shouldn't be going to see someone you haven't even Skyped with


 ^^^^^^^^^^
Ok, now I'm confused. I just found one of your posts Mark. Its exactly opposite of what you are telling us here about not skyping before meeting her. Care to enlighten us?     

Don't take the quote out of context.  That guy was asking whether the girl he was writing to was real or not.  One of the responses simply said that you shouldn't go to meet someone you haven't at least Skyped with.  I agreed.

I may have a system I recommend as best for best results from my experience, but, as I said, it's not the only way.  I've had guys who found me after they had already paid for an AFA tour and begged me for advice (two different ocassions).  I gave them every bit of advice I could on how to succeed in that environment because I want every guy who is man enough to get on a plane to have his best chance at success.  My advice to them was free of charge.  Both of the men I counseled before they went on AFA tours are now engaged - and they were each only one of two that came back with someone out of groups of 25 from each tour.  That means that 46 more men (23 from each tour) are now swearing that international dating is a fraud.  I feel sorry for them.  How can you tell them that their experience doesn't have to be that way. 

Please understand, I will try to give my best advice to any guy going no matter what system he decides to use - including letter-writing, Skyping, or other tour companies.

In the case of the quote you mentioned, I do not recommend that writing to someone and Skyping is the better than first meeting face to face, but if that is his decision, I will offer the best advice I can offer.

There is no contradiction.

[Mark Davis]

So I am just trying to understand why you feel that communicating on skype before you first meet is not a good idea. Everything I have experienced is opposite of what you said. Can you please explain how you came to these conclusions about pre-trip skyping?     

You really made your case clear and I love what you said, that the sorting, writing, and Skyping was part of the fun for you.  You're where I was when I went on my first trip to Ukraine.  I'd already dated women from Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Colombia, Brazil, Peru, and Venezuela before I went to Ukraine.  When I got there I was so self confident my attitude was, "Hey, I got this.  Just show me the women."  Part of it was naive, but part of it was that I had experience by then.

I don't deal with guys like us often.  The client that my wife and I had dinner with tonight is considering going, but is full of fear.  Why?  He had never event considered going out of the country before he found me on the web.  The entire concept was new.  Could that guy start writing and Skyping and then just go over there for a few months and be successful?  He'd never even try! 

My passion is to help a new generation of men give international romance serious consideration - and if they are bold enough to try - I want to offer them their best odds for success.

Many of the guys here could relocate, live, and date in any FSU country without much of a stretch.  You are certainly in that camp.

My counsel is mostly going to be directed toward the new seeker.  Make sense?

[Donhollio]

The top things I hear from the ladies is that they want a man who has a good sense of humor, or is fun to be around.  Why?  Because the Russian and Ukrainian men are so serious in a relationship.  You just have to be fascinated with them and their life and be fun to be around.  I'm not saying to be a comedian; but it's not hard to compete with a serious Russian or Ukrainian guy.

  My girl told me she didn't want to marry a comedian, if she did she would of married some guy from the circus, in the end she still married a clown.

 

  I posted an introduction message and was warmly greeted.  This seems like a great group. 

  Enjoy the warmth, the honeymoon usually doesn't last past the first couple of weeks.

[Mark Davis]

Your plan would work of high income earners with plenty of free time, but lets be realistic, that not most people.
Maybe you only cater to the well off?

I completely understand what you're saying.  Perhaps it souinds like I'm describing a $12,500 AFA executive program.  Consider what I'm recommending to be a hybrid of an executive program and a group program for under $5k.

But you and I both know that the raw cost for the trip is only part of it.  There's visa attorney fees, spending cash, return trips, and then the final trip to bring her home.

I have seen it done for just under $10k, but realistically it's going to cost closer to $15k over the course of that full year.

It doesn't take a rich guy, but it does take a guy who has saved or can come up with about $15k to dedicate to this over the course of that year.

[Mark Davis]

  I posted an introduction message and was warmly greeted.  This seems like a great group. 

  Enjoy the warmth, the honeymoon usually doesn't last past the first couple of weeks.

Point taken.   

[d672]

So I am just trying to understand why you feel that communicating on skype before you first meet is not a good idea. Everything I have experienced is opposite of what you said. Can you please explain how you came to these conclusions about pre-trip skyping?     

You really made your case clear and I love what you said, that the sorting, writing, and Skyping was part of the fun for you.  You're where I was when I went on my first trip to Ukraine.  I'd already dated women from Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Colombia, Brazil, Peru, and Venezuela before I went to Ukraine.  When I got there I was so self confident my attitude was, "Hey, I got this.  Just show me the women."  Part of it was naive, but part of it was that I had experience by then.

I don't deal with guys like us often.  The client that my wife and I had dinner with tonight is considering going, but is full of fear.  Why?  He had never event considered going out of the country before he found me on the web.  The entire concept was new.  Could that guy start writing and Skyping and then just go over there for a few months and be successful?  He'd never even try! 

My passion is to help a new generation of men give international romance serious consideration - and if they are bold enough to try - I want to offer them their best odds for success.

Many of the guys here could relocate, live, and date in any FSU country without much of a stretch.  You are certainly in that camp.

My counsel is mostly going to be directed toward the new seeker.  Make sense?

 Ok, I have a better understanding now. Your clients are pretty much who I said would be interested in your services at the start my post. Guys who probably  never would contact a lady themselves or take a trip if they didn't do it through an agency like yours. I could understand why you would recommend guys like that not too have any pre meeting contact. Hope you're not having too many problems with those strong willed Ukrainian girls scaring too many of them away!   

 As for the other post, I could understand now why you said what you did, and commend you for trying to help the guy out by offering to contact her for him to see if she was legit.   

 

[TomT]

The less literate that a man is, the more adventageous that it is for him to meet face-to-face. If a man writes eloquently, he can usually get away with email correspondence for a month or two. Unfortunately, quality writing is not the norm.

[Wild Orchid]

4 kids, 2 ex-wives... what a "catch"!.. 

[Ade]

4 kids, 2 ex-wives... what a "catch"!.. 

No, really, say it like you mean it. 

[Wild Orchid]

No, really, say it like you mean it. 

yep.. what was i thinking?  Time to log out again

[Vinnvinny]

4 kids, 2 ex-wives... what a "catch"!.. 

Yes, really shocking isn’t it? I sometimes wonder at times what planet these guys are on because as we all know, every lady’s dream is to meet a single man with no experience of marriage or fatherhood. Even better if he still lives with Momma when he’s 40.

It’s a bit like if you were planning to scale half a dozen hills in the Himalayas. The last thing you would want is to be accompanied by someone with climbing experience, who knows his way around a bit and has been there before.

[rosco]

Hi Mark,

I'm not disagreeing with you or trying to give you a hard time here. You've made it clear who you pitch at and this is good for these guys. I just think its important for newbies to look at all their options before deciding what method suits them. As you said, some guys who already did tours have probably been given the wrong impression & will never return. And to balance this - there's probably guys who did it our way and got burnt?!

I tend to agree with d672, planning the trip, discussing apartments with my girl, the adventure ahead and then ultimately spending time with this girl alone is part of the adventure. This way gives you a real feel for the country and it's people, you don't have a safety net which can make you ignorant to your surroundings. For me this is real life with real people and I would hate to do it with a wingman too. Whilst it might be fun with one of my best friends, on some level it's going to stop me from giving my girl the full commitment the trip deserves.

I'm from Edinburgh and I guess some people like to arrive, pay full whack and get the spoon fed tour of the city. Others like to immerse themselves in what's on offer and embrace the adventure.

Neither way is particularly right or wrong, but I know what way I'd do it

[missAmeno]

Even better if he still lives with Momma when he’s 40.

Not necessary with Momma, living in nice round preserving cookie jar will be sufficient 

[Vinnvinny]

I’m more on Mark’s side of the fence on this one. Early in my RSU adventures I communicated with a lady for several weeks before I met her and even spoke to her on the phone. All was well and we got on fine. When I met her face to face there was zero chemistry from my side (probably hers too) and we just had the one date. Fortunately I had a plan B, C, and D. From the other side, I just about knew nothing about the ladies I have really connected with before I met them. Whilst I am neither shy nor lacking social abilities, I also realise that I’m not prepared to invest time and energy with an e-person I have never met.

rosco: I know where you are coming from regarding pre communication as being part of the adventure, but I also think there is some excitement to be had by going 'commando'. For every story like yours there are probably 10 where things didn’t work out so well.

[Vinnvinny]

Even better if he still lives with Momma when he’s 40.

Not necessary with Momma, living in nice round preserving cookie jar will be sufficient 

Can you stop trying to appease the American market please. Biscuits will be just fine. 

[shakespear]

That's my opinion on the whole thing. Those are my best suggestions.  Anything can work for the right types of circumstances and people (hey, I did meet my wife at a big box social).  It is just my experience that this process gives you the best odds for success. 

Mark very interesting and informative read. 

I agree with your assessment than most pre-travel communications is time wasted.  I have a couple of questions.

If you are seeking a younger bride, how important is income and financial security in the process?  I know that all women seek some level of financial security when they marry but is it more important when a wide-age courtship is involved.  Without being too specific, I would guess that your income, like mine is in the 2% targeting by our President.  How much did this factor come into play during your courtship.  Is there a minimum level of income or financial assets needed to realistically pursue a bride from the FSU?

Sex and intimacy during courtship.  I'm one of the leading proponents of the "5 Date Sex Rule" when courting women from the FSU.  No sex by the fifth date and she's just not that in to you.  That rule is modified by the corollary that sex on the first date can be worse than no sex in 5 dates.  In your strategy what role or indicator (if any) does sex play in the process when an older man seeks a younger woman?   

[TomT]

4 kids, 2 ex-wives... what a "catch"!.. 

Would it be any better the other way around?

[AvHdB]

4 kids, 2 ex-wives... what a "catch"!.. 

Would it be any better the other way around?

Instant family she does not have to work for 9 months X 4 and she will get twice the advice.

[TomT]

4 kids, 2 ex-wives... what a "catch"!.. 

Would it be any better the other way around?

Instant family she does not have to work for 9 months X 4 and she will get twice the advice.

I meant if Mark had two kids and four ex-wives...

[Anteros]

The important thing to me is that we have the same attitude about money, which in my case I prefer to wait and buy quality, and I always want to have more than enough money in the bank for a rainy day.  Some women get that, and others want to spend it all until you are completely broke.  More and more it seems to me that the women looking to go abroad (as in leaving Ukraine or Russia) are just looking for a sugar daddy. 

Because of their history and experiences, many people in the FSU have a different perspective about money than we do here in the west.  Russia has had a change of government and TWO huge devaluations since 1990.  They've seen saved money become virtually worthless, so they haven't the experience to understand how saving money is a positive alternative.  Money, to them is to be spent for things NOW before they go up in price.  It is not uncommon when a close friends gets extra money, for him to share it amongst his "droogs", with the assumption that in the future, if others are in the same circumstance, they will do the same for him.   

With your attitude, it won't be uncommon for an FSU woman to perceive you as "cheap".  Hopefully this brief explanation will help you understand where they're coming from and how you might start to change their perception of you.

I appreciate your answer but this is not my first rodeo.  I am already aware of the economic history of the fsu and how their perception on money is different from ours.  so how do you suggest that the two can be merged??  can it be done successfully?  I am sure from what I have read here, which is extensive, that there are actually russian women who are occasionally frugal, not cheap frugal.  there is a difference. 

[Justmd]

Mark & Anna Davis
EuropeanDreamConnections.com

This guy is using this forum to promote his business venture? why is it even a topic?