How the story turned out for American man & Russian woman: Don't touch me, marry

[Philnatseaman]

Thanks for sharing your love story with us. From everything you've said I understood that your woman had an emotional breakdown for unknown to us  reason. We are not doctors here to diagnose her. She has left and the story is over. What I like about you is that you still say good things about her, and it's a plus to you as a MAN. Though you are fourteen thousand dollars shorter, but I hope
you've learned your lesson ... in a hard way. Money comes and go...
Next time meet the one you want to be with as soon as possible and spend as much time as you can with her before planning to spend life together, and pay attention to details. Good luck.

In many ways, she didn't really behave that much differently here than in her home country.  I hoped she would.  It wasn't that she had a breakdown here.  It was more that she didn't settle down and act in a way one would reasonably expect from a wife-to-be.
I have considered posting a few stories from the visits that are a snapshot and should have been enough of a sign for me.  When I look back at those episodes, it's textbook BPD behavior, with projection, splitting, and even a toddler rage episode.  In each case, her American friend mediated between us, and managed to settle things down enough for us to function again for a while.  If people think it would be useful for future puzzled men to read, I'll post a accounts of a couple of those incidents in this thread.

As I said, my purpose here is telling the story so others know how it ends, and can compare their evolving story to mine.  I thought people were being over the top when they said the next step would be sexual abuse allegations, etc.  Yes, even several people on VJ advised me that this is what would come next.  I was wrong and they were right, but thankfully I heeded their advice and got her out of the house and away from me before she could do this kind of damage.

[Philnatseaman]

BPD is a very complex malady becasue it is a grab bag of a whole load of nasty stuff and no two sufferers will be exactly the same which is why Philnatseaman made the point about how the behaviours from one illness cross over to another.

Philnatseaman, I know that you spent waaaay less time together than I did but you made a good call. Yes, it is possible to live with a person with BPD but there is stuff that you do not know about because it has not manifested itself with you.
Because I had a very close emotional connection it was not so easy to close the door. It gets harder the longer you go on together.

I was very lucky in that my ex opened up to me and because of that she came to understand that not everyone was like her. It made it easier for us to make a move toward therapy but therapy is almost impossible for BPD sufferers to maintain - all sorts of reasons.

Rasputin, slippery slope it may be to try to cope with an illness like this but what has not been mentioned is that after the onset of the illness, which varies but often becomes an issue in the mid to late 20's most women are able to be living a normal life by the time they are 40. About 75% of BPD sufferers are in that situation by then, but by that time 10-15% of the whole BPD population will have committed suicide and many more will have ruined and solitary lives. The thing is that if one loves a person then one loves them. If one makes a committment to that person then it stands.
In my case, my ex is still a part of my life but we do not see each other very much. I am glad she is a small part of my life and she is happy to be part of mine.
I had the hope that we might make it through the bad years and toward better times as she gets older. Sometimes I still have that hope.

By the way, there ARE ways of dealing with BPD, ways of coping, strategies to enable communication. They were worth trying for the woman who wanted to be the mother of my kids.

How can you walk away from someone you love and who loves you? Except when they flip. And in my case it was much worse because normally when they turn against somebody they tend to stay that way, it is too hard for them to construct a world in which you were once the man they loved, then a terrible bad man they hated and back to love again. My ex turned away from me and then back again, not common at all - albeit they really hate to lose touch with people entirely - even their abusers and other hated ones.

If I had to choose, then please give me a partner with bipolar disorder or depression or any one of the illnesses that are just a part of the spectrum that afflicts BPD sufferers.

I had the advantage of having a close friend with, as he says, "Seven years of personal research on BPD relationships... so you don't have to!!"  So yes, even though my time was much shorter than yours, I still got *most* of the full BPD experience.  It's possible my girl could have turned it around, calmed down, and, in time, we could have had a serviceable relationship.  I'd read about how BPDs do settle down a bit with age.  And my ex-fiancee told me that her (BPD) symptoms, "nervousness", as she called it, got suddenly worse in her early/mid 20's after having her daughter.  But when push came to shove, I had to make the call and it was WAAAYYY too high-risk here in the USA to stick it out and see, between DV allegations, spousal support, biased family courts, VAWA, etc.  And I wasn't after "serviceable", I was after "fantastic".  I loved her.  A part of me still does.  There were many good things about her, when she was able to show them.  Eventually I came to realize that I could not have anything resembling the life I imagined for myself with this woman.  I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.

[Rasputin]

I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.

 

If only more men could realize this, divorce lawyers could be reduced to paupers

[shakespear]

I loved her.  A part of me still does.  There were many good things about her, when she was able to show them.  Eventually I came to realize that I could not have anything resembling the life I imagined for myself with this woman.  I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.

Thank God you came to that realization and did the right thing by sending her back.

Too many "white knights" would have gone ahead and married her thinking, "she'll change once she's been her for a while".  It NEVER happens.

I apologize if I missed it upthread.  How many times did you go to her home city in Moldova to visit her before filing the K-1?  Didn't you pick up any hint of mental instability during those visits? 

[Philnatseaman]

I loved her.  A part of me still does.  There were many good things about her, when she was able to show them.  Eventually I came to realize that I could not have anything resembling the life I imagined for myself with this woman.  I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.

Thank God you came to that realization and did the right thing by sending her back.

Too many "white knights" would have gone ahead and married her thinking, "she'll change once she's been her for a while".  It NEVER happens.

I apologize if I missed it upthread.  How many times did you go to her home city in Moldova to visit her before filing the K-1?  Didn't you pick up any hint of mental instability during those visits?

I visited her twice there, over a period of just over a year, in Kishinev/Chisinau.  The first time for a week, the second time for two weeks. Yes, there were plenty of hints.  And with BPD, it's emotional instability, not so much mental instability.  As I mentioned in a previous post, and went into more detail on in the VJ thread (Yeah, the VJ thread is a lot to read, with too much irrelevant crap littering the thread, but some good stuff too.), I made excuses for her behavior, with help from her American friend, the one she had served as an interpreter for when he met his wife, who was a personal friend of my ex-fiancee.  Well, his wife is actually on-again, off-again personal friend of my ex.  My ex had "split" her friend too.  Splitting is just another facet of BPD...

Yeah, her American friend insisted she would change for the better after she adjusted, after I married her, and he encouraged me to disregard her awful behavior and just go ahead and marry her, and then she could calm down.  I see in hindsight that his agenda was all about her, no concern for me, and that he probably knew (but said nothing to me about) that the instant I married her, I would be on the hook for ton$ of temporary spousal support if I divorced her, and besides, once married, that opens the door for VAWA, so not only would she have a good chunk of my money for a year or so, she'd get to stay in the USA.  He said I just needed to be more patient with her.  Of course, he also worries his wife would cheat on him at the drop of a hat given the opportunity, like she did when she went back to Moldova for a month without him, and he had to fly over and track her down and convince her to come back, so I also concluded he might not be the right person to get LTR advice from.

[shakespear]

Yeah, her American friend insisted she would change for the better after she adjusted, after I married her, and he encouraged me to disregard her awful behavior and just go ahead and marry her, and then she could calm down.  Of course, he also worries his wife would cheat on him at the drop of a hat given the opportunity, like she did when she went back to Moldova for a month without him, and he had to fly over and track her down and convince her to come back, so I also concluded he might not be the right person to get LTR advice from. 

No kidding!

Is her American friend still married to this woman? 

[TomT]

Of course, he also worries his wife would cheat on him at the drop of a hat given the opportunity, like she did when she went back to Moldova for a month without him, and he had to fly over and track her down and convince her to come back, so I also concluded he might not be the right person to get LTR advice from.

Over the years, we've had many guys with similar afflictions come and go. They were dead set on rationalizing bad behavior and nothing that they read would deter them from their self-destructive rounds. (You can't save 'em all.)

[andrewfi]

Shakespear, he did do the right thing for him, but I'd lay odds that much of any instability that he saw was actually great fun and part of the attraction.

In Russian there is a phrase 'dostupny devushka' translated literally it means 'available girl' we might say 'party girl' but it ain't an exactly appropriate translation. A very social girl who is 'up for it' great fun probably sexually active - great company for a short time, but much harder long term.

I'd bet that Philnatseaman's ex was to some degree one of those. I understand that borderlines often are. Having spent time with my ex I am pretty sure one other close friend of mine has gone through BPD and is finding her way through the other side. She has been with her current man for around 7 years and their life together is 'unstable' at best but he reached an accommodation with her and his life that works for both of them. He is no saint, the opposite is more true, but that may be what has enabled their relationship to last.

In general borderlines are very good at manipulating their environment, it is easy enough to understand why some men give these women lots and lots of slack - there IS a payoff.

[msmoby]

The above post illustrates why - having been invited from VJ to here, our OP ends up having his relationship talked about as if in a private conversation...to which he is not party.

It's bad form..

[TomT]

Yes, Andrew, unstable girls can be more effective than sildenafil. The side-effects can be a killer, however.

[andrewfi]

Yes, Andrew, unstable girls can be more effective than sildenafil. The side-effects can be a killer, however.

No, Tom, I am not just referring to sex, although as I mentioned it tends to be a core competence for borderlines. Given that sufferers with BPD hate to be alone, hate to be abandoned, they tend to be - when not in depression - very gregarious, generous, kind. Problem is that as one learns more one finds that these things are all self serving mechanisms. But then one can argue that all generosity is ultimately selfish anyway.

BPD is a very complex condition because it tends to have co-occurring conditions. In the case of my ex, depression, in others they may appear to be bi-polar, others tend toward addiction - in fact many BPDs are addicted to something, overlaid on all the other stuff.
The tendency toward co-morbidity is greater in BPD than for other personality disorders.

This article is part of a very interesting and useful book.

Another book well worth a shufti is 'Stop Walking On Eggshells'.

And if you read nothing else on the topic the Wikipedia entry is very helpful as a jumping off point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

The bottom line is that one CAN live with a woman with BPD but not everyone can and not in all circumstances. I couldn't do it, the cost was higher than I could manage and the compromises with my life were greater than I was willing to make. OTOH she is better off now than she was when she was at her worst and I am sure that I helped her. But the Original Poster here was not in a situation to do other than he did - he did good.

I can't help but think that one is more likely to meet women with personality disorders when they are trying to escape from something and one provides an escape route. That suggests to me that one is more likely to meet these women in foreign facing mail order bride agencies because the reason that women are there is to change their lives to something hopefully better and THAT applies to every woman on an MOB site.

[Philnatseaman]

The above post illustrates why - having been invited from VJ to here, our OP ends up having his relationship talked about as if in a private conversation...to which he is not party.-

It's bad form..

I respectfully disagree. I have found nearly all comments here to be given in a spirit of helpfulness and learning. I simply look for the truth that might apply to my situation. My hope is that future men in similar situations will stumble across  my story and find elements that either keep them from making a huge mistake or help them establish a workable relationship if they decide to go forward. Not once here have I felt offended or insulted. Amused, yes, at times, but I have always felt the helpful intentions of others. And if skewrering me and my choices helps others make better choices in the future, I'm all for it. And I also appreciate your intent here, in case I had been more sensitive about the things people say.

[TomT]

Andrew,

Women who are afflicted with cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic & narcissistic) personality disorder symptoms can be very exciting indeed. The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around to stimulate them. You can't save 'em; one can damage oneself trying, though. As if relationships aren't difficult and risky enough with nominally normal women...

[shakespear]

Women who are afflicted with cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic & narcissistic) personality disorder symptoms can be very exciting indeed. The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around. You can't save 'em; one can damage oneself trying, though. As if relationships aren't difficult enough with nominally normal women...

I've tried to give Andrewfi the exact same message and you'd think based on his own personal experience he would agree completely; but that doesn't seem to be the case.   

[Rasputin]

The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around to stimulate them.

Exactly! Aren't there other ways for men to get excitement in their lives? Go to a movie, go mountain climbing go hang gliding, do anything other than get married for excitement 

[TomT]

Aren't there other ways for men to get excitement in their lives?

One would think so...

[andrewfi]

Hmmm.. I think a point is being missed here!

1) I am NOT with my ex, the word is 'EX' for a reason.
2) No person will rationally cease a relationship until it is the right time to do so. That time may well be very different to that which others think to be the right time.
3) It is not about 'excitement', at least not for me, but about care, respect, love, responsibility. And, yes, of course, it is normal to want and hope that things will turn out better.
People who have been in long term relationships with those dependent upon alcohol and other drugs will maybe understand this.
4) I have already written that our hero did the right thing, made the right choice and that is based upon the context of my experience and learning. The thing is that it was pretty easy for him to do so, the relationship did not have deep roots and he already had experience of behaviours that were, shall we say, 'unsettling'. Specific to my situation, I did not have that experience or context.
5) How many of you would walk away from your life partners because you found out they had a serious illness? My guess is very few. I'd have fairly little respect for a person who could claim 'love' and yet do so without giving it his or her best shot.

One thing I learned is that in life sometimes we have to stand up and 'Do what a man's gotta do.' I think that for many people that kind of challenge never crops up in their lives - until the situation faced me I had never been through anything similar and will likely never face such a challenge again so I will not knock anyone else for trying their best to attain a decent outcome; nor would I stop them from trying to do so - I would tell them that there may be a high price to pay though. By the way, in this context I am not referring to simply staying with the person, that's the easy bit, there was significantly more than that involved.

Those who know me well know that I paid a very high price, but I can say this, I do not regret having paid it.

[2tallbill]

Exactly! Aren't there other ways for men to get excitement in their lives? Go to a movie, go mountain climbing go hang gliding, do anything other than get married for excitement 

I put together a list of exciting hobbies
1. Racing down an escalator in roller blades: if not exciting enough
A. Wear a blind fold
B. Have a couple of tequila shots first
C. Tie your laces together

2. Russian roulette: You really don't think it is a coincidence that it's
called Russian roulette do you? Some Russian guy surely thought it was a better idea than heading home

3. Grabbing a policeman's gun: This is almost always exciting and you can make it more so by only approaching policemen who are in groups of three or more

4. Marrying a cRaZy woman that you KNOW in advance is crazy 
You don't even need to diagnose what particular brand of crazy she is, all you need to know that the girl isn't right in the head.

[Philnatseaman]

Andrew,

Women who are afflicted with cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic & narcissistic) personality disorder symptoms can be very exciting indeed. The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around to stimulate them. You can't save 'em; one can damage oneself trying, though. As if relationships aren't difficult and risky enough with nominally normal women...

Even though it may not have been directed at me, the comment about (the man in a relationship with a BPD woman) needing/wanting a certain amount of excitement, "drama" in life is correct for me also.  Except that I wanted a partner in creating and living the adventure, and I didn't intend for the bulk of the drama to come FROM the partner.  I knew I was rolling the dice bringing this woman over here.  I just hoped I'd get lucky, and it would be as both she and her American friend insisted, she would just become a normal calm woman once in the USA.  Instead the dice came up snake eyes for me, regarding this woman, but in hindsight, that was the right roll, as "succeeding" and having her in my life would have been a Pyrrhic victory, e.g., "If we are 'victorious' in one more such battle with the Romans, we shall be utterly ruined."

I didn't choose and pursue my woman for the sex alone, or necessarily even in the top three; that was just part of the package.   As far as sex goes, my second wife, who I left for other reasons, was a whole lot better lover than my ex-fiance, and also more attractive at that time.  My ex-fiancee met, or at least, appeared to meet, a whole bunch of my criteria for what I wanted in a woman.  She had taken a huge risk and gone back to school in a technical field and successfully graduated from that.  So I respected her courage and willingness to take risks and bet on herself.  She had run an interpreter agency for a while, and even though she eventually wound up closing it and selling her equipment, I respected her for making the effort to be an entrepreneur.  I did not learn more of the story until after she was in the USA with me.

Regarding her entrepreneurial activities, and her interpreter business, she told me there was too much competition from larger agencies, and local mafia types demanded she either pay them or "service" them, as a condition of having an office and doing business in the downtown area, and being a single woman. It's hard for me to know the local conditions, business environment, etc., so perhaps someone can say if this would be an accurate description of business in Kishinev, or just more BS.  During the interpreter agency timeframe, she was trying to "save" a heroin addict boyfriend, who was apparently a buff bad boy UFC type, just her type, who got hooked during his years in prison.  She told me she spent large amounts of money from her agency business on treatment for him, trying to get him clean.  (That in hindsight, she said, should have gone to benefit her daughter, e.g., music lessons, sports, and such) Eventually, UFC boyfriend committed suicide by overdose on the night she left him.  My guess is that she neglected the business while trying to save him, and when he committed suicide she was emotionally unable to continue with the business, so then she closed up shop and sold the equipment. That's my bet on how the end of her business went down.

I was also guilty of assuming I would fully win her over, once she got here with me.  I told her repeatedly how I expected things to be over here, I will lead and she will follow, and if she insists to "fight" me for leadership, it absolutely will not work.  In hindsight, there was an increasing pattern, where she would act as if she understood and agreed with things I was telling her, but in fact was only playing along, giving me what she thought I wanted to hear in the moment, because her plan and expectation was for me to wind up on my back with her heel on my throat.  And in fact, she may not have been intending to "lie" or "deceive" in the moment, and in theory, agreed with me; it's just that BPDs are instinctive, reptilian predators, like a crocodile, and once you "climb into the water" with them, they almost can't help their actions.  The platitudes a BPD says with their logical brain may have been sincere at the time, but once you're in the water with them, it is the emotional, reptilian brain that is in control, and all logical, higher-order intentions previously spoken by the BPD, are worth "precisely dick" (per Tommy Lee Jones from Men In Black I).  Once she arrived, all previous logical agreements, platitudes, etc. were quickly forgotten, and her immediate, reptilian, emotional agenda was to restore "proper BPD order" to life by putting me on my back with her heel on my throat.  Honestly, her behavior the first few days in the USA absolutely shocked and stunned me.  I was in disbelief, alternate reality, pinching myself to see if I was real and this was really happening, or just some bad dream I was going to wake up from.

There were several co-occurring conditions, along with the BPD.  She smoked like a fiend. (but promised to quit within first year in USA)  Smoking was to "calm her nerves."  She drank, even more than I was expecting, to the point of behaving as an alcohlic during the month-plus she was with me.  She was constantly playing stupid little games on the computer, like Russian crosswords, Bejeweled, Angry Birds, and then some sort of virtual pet thing, were fluffy creatures on this island would reproduce and grow if you did the right things, fed them the right way, or whatever.  While with me in the USA, she spent so much time and attention "calming her nerves" it left time for little else, certainly not housework, laundry, etc., though she usually did cook.  Actually, that was her behavior for large parts of the time when I visited her in her country, so no actual change in behavior once in the USA.  I experienced her constant emotion-calming behaviors as extremely disrespectful behavior on her part, that while I felt we should have been interacting, communicating, learning about each other, etc., her time and attention were given so intensely to "calming her emotions" instead.  Add to this the fact we most times weren't sharing the same bedroom, by her choice, and it limited the opportunities for getting to know each other better and establishing more of a relationship.  So when I began spending some nights out of the house, she furiously scolded me for not being present for my new family, told me it was not manly behavior, etc. An obvious double standard here.  In hindsight, one of her repeated attempted manipulations was to insult my masculinity if I displeased her.  Apparently this was a tactic that had sometimes worked in the past on other men.  I could see when she was smoking, smoking, always smoking, that she was also deep in thought, which I interpreted as racking her brain, trying to think of some way to put herself in control, given that I was being so uncooperative.   Unfortunately for her scheming, as she told me on her third day in the USA, she had learned she "had no rights in your country until after we are married."   Then when her schemes didn't achieve the desired result of a quick marriage, she seemed disoriented and lost, because all she did was wait a bit, and then try essentially the same stupid tactics over and over again.

More about how I got drawn in by this woman in the first place... First, she was my polar opposite in Myers-Briggs type, which was exactly what I was looking for, though the only part I'm really picky about is having a partner with the "FJ" part of the type.  I wanted a woman where we would balance each other out, in terms of strengths and weaknesses in different areas.  Then, she was also the rare Russian woman who "got" my English humor; this alone made her special.  I could speak to her almost as if she were a native English speaker.  Also, as she had just completed this technical program in Information Technology, I was pretty sure I could help her get well-paid employment here in the USA within about 6 months.  So I could see a nice future together, taking tropical vacations together, learning Russian and visiting her other family in FSU, etc.  Also, I really liked her daughter, and I could see that we would make a nice little family.  I could see that the situation here, and schools here, would have been a great setup for her daughter, and given her fantastic opportunities.  I felt my young adult children would get along well with my ex-fiancee and her daughter, and we would all have a lot of good times together. 

We seemed to be on the same page on most things we discussed over phone and email about how our family and our household would operate.  She told me she had scared off so many men with her emotions, being too emotional for them, and I was the only man who had been strong enough (stupid enough?) to deal with her emotions.  By "emotions", I mean things like she would most often sound very cross in routine interactions with others, like cab drivers, shop clerks, her daughter, and others.  I came to understand that this cross-sounding behavior meant nothing, except a cover-up for the raw emotions and nervousness she so often felt.  Her daughter, in fact, gave me the cues in how to handle this constant "scolding" behavior, to simply treat it as normal routine interaction, and react just as casually as if one had been calmly asked for the time.  I did not know about BPD at this point, and thought she was a very emotional woman, and feeling a lot of stress, and I saw her loud scolding behavior more as a nervous tic.  In fact, my ex-fiancee was very self-aware about her harsh-sounding, loud and scolding-sounding behavior.  She told me it was something she wanted to change in the USA, as she worried about how people would perceive her, this big, loud, cross-sounding Russian woman.  I told her it was not required for her to change, I didn't care, but that if she wished to, I would support her in making that change.

In hindsight, I gave this woman undeserved credit for traits, experiences, and abilities she in fact did not possess, or at least not to the degree I gave her credit for.  Further, the thing that was baffling, is if this woman intended to be a scammer, she would have conducted herself quite differently.  She would have put in much more effort at being a good actress.  I can see in hindsight that trying to make logical, consistent sense out of BPD behavior is a fool's game.   I went back through some of my earlier correspondence with other FSU women, and just have to shake my head, that I chose the wrong one to pursue, and how much better it would have been to invest my energies and resources in a reasonably normal, healthy woman, of which there are plenty.

[TomT]

It would have been far better to have observed her behavior to see whether you could live with her the way that she is... or not. Attempting to change people rarely succeeds.

[Rasputin]

I knew I was rolling the dice bringing this woman over here.  I just hoped I'd get lucky, and it would be as both she and her American friend insisted, she would just become a normal calm woman once in the USA.

Luck was never part of the equation. People don't change simply because they move countries.

[Rasputin]

We seemed to be on the same page on most things we discussed over phone and email about how our family and our household would operate.  She told me she had scared off so many men with her emotions, being too emotional for them, and I was the only man who had been strong enough (stupid enough?) to deal with her emotions.

This is a perfect example as to why men must really listen to what women are really saying. It is also another reason IMHO why all the Skyping in the world won't really do much good if a man isn't paying attention: crazy can be much more easily ignored or rationalized away when chatting online 

[Philnatseaman]

This is a perfect example as to why men must really listen to what women are really saying. It is also another reason IMHO why all the Skyping in the world won't really do much good if a man isn't paying attention: crazy can be much more easily ignored or rationalized away when chatting online 

Yes, mine is a cautionary tale.  I *wanted* to believe her American friend, who she was the interpreter for.  I wanted to believe his assurances that once she was not simply scratching and clawing for survival, and was in the USA, it wouldn't be long before she was purring like a cat for me.  Of course, the very nature of a BPD's very existence is scratching and clawing for survival, somewhat independent of external prosperity.  After all, this guy had been to her country 5 times, and had been married to his wife for two and a half years.  He came to know my ex-fiancee well, as a friend, in her capacity as an interpreter between him and his then wife-to-be.  So maybe he knew enough that I should be listening to him.  (Now, of course, I better understand how totally he comes from a "nice guy", White Knight, wussy-boy place in his approach to women, and it's no wonder he has to worry about his wife repeating her behavior of running off and cheating on him.  And he placed my ex-fiancee on a pedestal in his mind, and that's where he came from in advising me.)  Each strange behavior of hers that happened during my visits, during our Skype calls with him during the visit, he would explain away as a cultural difference, something I just needed to be patient with.  The stretch wasn't that great between *some* of her behaviors and challenges I had read about involving other FSU relationships.  The truth is there were some good times mixed in, and possibly I under-report the good times here.   I *wanted* to believe him, so I chose to focus on the good times, and I let him explain away her bad behavior that should have been all the information I needed, hoping he would turn out to be correct.

P.S. I'm working on my technique for idea #3, grabbing a policeman's gun, to get some excitement.  I've observed numerous cops walking in groups of three.  I figure if I just dart in from behind, I can grab two of their guns in the first move.  Still figuring out the second move.  Anyway, f it goes well in the USA, then I'll try this sport in Ukraine as well and see if it's even more exciting there.  Thanks for the tip!  Way better (and cheaper, in this economy) than bungee-jumping and skydiving!

[Halo]

This was all of your own doing.

I *wanted* to believe

Cut it out and paste it to your refrigerator door/mirror.

[cufflinks]

Bottom line is if she maintains a household - has a kid, has cordial relationships with friends and family, pays the bills consistently - has been living in the same place for a long period of time - can maintain eye contact and hold a conversation that follows a logical give and take and natural progression of thought, and you over time find out what is in her medicine cabinet then you are probably good to go... maybe - surely the opposite situation to the above is noteworthy for extra consideration - loss of a job can lead to a lot of instability but normally a capable person can always find work - lots of jobs in succession with excuses why they do not work out is always a point of concern as people are basically creatures of habit and so are employers - thrilling adventures are best left for adventure vacations.   Words a rhetoric are often intended to deceive where actions never lie.