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Author Topic: How the story turned out for American man & Russian woman: Don't touch me, marry  (Read 51314 times)

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Offline Philnatseaman

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How this story turned out for American man and Russian woman Don't touch me, marry me immediately, I hate u, I'm telling the police...

I wanted people to know how things turned out, so I'm going to summarize and keep it brief and to the point as best I can.  I think it's relevant FROM AN IMMIGRATION STANDPOINT, because WHAT THE HECK DO YOU, AS A US CITIZEN, DO WHEN ALL HECK BREAKS LOOSE AFTER YOU'VE BROUGHT YOUR FIANCEE OVER?  I mean, most of the VJ (VisaJourney) people who posted in the thread have the happy experience of getting married and living happily ever after.  In my case, things went very bad within the first 30 days, and it created a very awkward and ugly situation.  Yes, it was a huge mistake to bring my fiancee over in the first place, but that's been covered quite a bit in the other thread.

Well, it started in this thread, and things seem to have run their course.
http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/319747-has-this-story-ever-turned-out-well-for-american-man-and-russian-woman/

The moderators at VJ didn't like the drama it created when my ex-fiancee and her American friend started posting their nasty (and mostly false) account of events in that thread, saying awful things about me, etc.  Myself, I didn't mind at all.  In fact, I rather liked it, because it showed a very different, contrasting point of view, that people could judge for themselves.  She claimed she had been held prisoner and "trafficked" among other things.  Not exactly claims that stood up to any level of scrutiny.  If anybody, by any chance, has copies of the deleted posts from that thread, by "Trafficked", I'd love to have them.

A quick summary, so you don't have to cope with the 26 pages of the other thread, if you are new to this mess:

1) Fiancee and 15 year old daughter arrived in early July, just after July 4. They are from a location near Odessa, Ukraine. In the interest of some degree of privacy, I am not naming the exact city, but for most intents and purposes, my fiancee and her daughter are primarily Russian/Ukrainian.

2) After 2 days, baffling fights, and my fiancee saying she would go to the police and demand her rights, my fiancee decided she would sleep in her daughter's room instead of with me, until we were married.

3) Fiancee, who is fluent in English and worked as an English/Russian interpreter and translator, began a habit of cursing at me in Russian in front of her daughter whenever I displeased her. She had wild mood swings and also was prone to hitting and physical violence. I told her not OK.  She sort of listened and partially observed this limit, for a while, anyway.  I managed to video-record a few minutes of her Russian tirades, using my smartphone camera. Not that it did much good, since I don't speak Russian.

4) I was not OK with this. It felt like fiancee was trying to use rationing of affection and intimacy to pressure me into marrying her quickly, and was not acting like a wife-to-be who loved her husband. I had read other threads on message boards where the woman did this, and I couldn't remember any that had a happy ending for the man.

5) I asked for help on VJ forums.  People suggested my fiancee was bipolar. I looked.  She didn't fit bipolar. I ran across info on Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) in my searching. BPD seemed to accurately describe her behavior and way of being.

6) Most on VJ urged me to run, don't walk, away from this relationship. I tried to learn everything I could about BPD and see if the relationship could still be made to work.

7) Things continued to go mostly badly with the fiancee, with a few good points here and there. But it was clear she and I lived in different realities.

8) I confronted my fiancee with my concerns involving BPD, and asked her to get an assessment, and then participate in any recommendations that came out of that.  My fiancee decided that I was the one with BPD, and that she would only get an assessment if I first did.  Then she decided she would agree to get assessed for BPD promptly AFTER we were married.

9) I began seeing a previous girlfriend. Yes, go ahead and bash me. I was a bad boy, and my fiancee was not sleeping in the same room, not keeping USA hours, not speaking to me in English for days at a time.

10) Things became unsalvageable.  While we were driving on freeway at 60mph, returning from visiting her girlfriend who married an American man, fiancee grabbed and yanked steering wheel, endangering my life and life of her 15 year old daughter.  Fiancee saw nothing wrong with her actions and blamed me as the cause, I made her angry, as she was convinced I "hated her friends".  Fiancee told me she was not ready to go back to her country, I should not change the tickets to earlier, and she would not go back unless I gave her a lot of money.

11) I realized the situation had become very dangerous to me, from assorted threats and violent behaviors by fiancee, to concerns about being set up for false allegations by fiancee. Finally, the previous girlfriend came to my house, and I took the next day off from work and got a domestic violence restraining order. I had my fiancee removed from my house by police, and arranged accommodations for her and her daughter at a local hotel.

12) Fiancee disappeared from hotel after two days, and her friends disavowed all knowledge of her whereabouts. I had no idea where she (they) were and who was taking care of them.

13) Two weeks later, fiancee shows up in family court to fight the restraining order, with coaching from those friends, at least the man, for whom she had worked as an interpreter back in her country.  There was a contentious 45-minute contested hearing in family court.  I prevailed, there was a finding of domestic violence against my fiancee, and the restraining order was made permanent, at least through her scheduled departure date of early October.

14) Fiancee's American friend acknowledged he had been taking care of her the whole time, and his earlier statements disavowing all knowledge were untrue.  He demanded that I pay him money for my (ex) fiancee's living expenses between time of restraining order and her return flight in early October.

OK, so that's a summary of where it left off.    Here's what happened afterwards:

THE FINAL CHAPTERS

1) I did not send money to her American friend.  After reflecting on the lies, and his overall behavior, and my own challenges of two daughters in college and their Fall school startup expenses, I decided he could pay for his own effort at chivalry, and for their own nice vacation time together.  Besides, when my ex-fiancee gives him credit for his generosity, it will truly be his.

2) After about a month of being gone and out of my house, I got a call from the county sheriff's department.  It was from their lead sex crimes investigator.  They wanted to talk to me about allegations my ex-fiancee had made against me.  She had alleged that I had kept her and her daughter prisoner in my house, and that I had forced myself on her non-consensually, aka "rape".  The allegations were, of course, desperate lies, some sort of Hail-Mary pass, possibly angling for a "U' or "T" visa for crime victims or trafficking victims. Or possibly just spiteful to try to damage me and cause me expense and difficulty.

3) I obtained some translations of Russian phrases my ex-fiancee had said, from the few minutes of video I had taken out of hours of her apparently cursing at me in Russian.  She was saying some very unkind things to me.  A few excerpts are below.  Her performance in these videos would have been very problematic to a prosecutor trying to paint her as a sweet, innocent sympathetic victim and me as an evil villain.

4) A few days later, I met with the sex crimes detective, and gave him the best briefing I could on the situation and the events.  Many advised me to have an attorney present with me.  I didn't, as I believed I could handle myself.  The allegations of being "imprisoned" that she described, the detective had already told her were not crimes. 

In other words, me failing to provide 24x7 taxi service to a fiancee who was still operating on Ukraine time, rising at 1pm, to bed at 3 am, did not rise to the level of a crime.  The allegations boiled down to one specific morning, about 2 weeks before I got the restraining order and had her removed, where she was very belatedly alleging that she said "no" and I proceeded anyway.  Absent physical evidence, corroborating witnesses, etc., it was a he-said, she-said case.  The detective said he would forward his report to the county prosecutor for a charging decision.

5) I supplied the detective with additional information about witness credibility problems the state would have at trial, if they charged me.  I heard no feedback from the detective, and also did not hear anything from the county prosecutor.

6) The return date of my ex-fiancee's ticket arrived, which was also the 90th day of her K-1 visa.  When I called the airlines, they confirmed that she and her daughter had boarded the scheduled flight.  So, assuming they continued with their itinerary, they are safely back home, on the other side of the world.  I am assuming this also ends any possibility of charges being brought.

First, obviously, thank God I didn't marry her.  Imagine what I would have been in for.  And the VAWA and DV machinery that would have been used against me.  I also learned that, had I married her, even briefly, I probably would have been ordered to pay large sums of spousal support to her for up to a year or more even if I quickly divorced her.  A man with a similar don't-touch-me-marry-me-immediately story, who gave in and married his fiancee quickly, was ordered by California family courts to pay her about $3,000 per month for the foreseeable future.

For my part, I am very glad I chose to obtain the Domestic Violence restraining order.  As she said numerous times to me, in between making throat-slashing motions towards me, "You have NO IDEA what I am capable of!" I may have only been a day or two away from her executing a plan to set me up but good for some false allegations.  False allegations are certainly one form of domestic violence that is under-recognized, but just as awful as physical violence, and with very life-damaging consequences to the falsely accused.  Several VJ posters advised me to get her out of the house, and that her next step, the next play in the playbook, would in fact be to try to set me up this way.  As much as I didn't want to believe this about her, they were right.

Day 11 video translation, excerpts.  Note that her 15 year old daughter was present for all of these tirades, and understood everything mama was saying.  That is some very interesting parenting.  Below are what the things she said in Russian translate to, in English.
"seems like somethings wrong in the head, Your mental, somethings not okay with u. what care? look at ur self in the mirror.. look how u act. look hes mental, did no one respect you, mom and dad probably didnt love you. whats ok?  look how u act. who needs u? you pushed me to the edge, i cant see you anymore, i cant see you,understand? i cant see you i cant speak english with you. you pisz me off. a little bit, a little bit, i dont give a f--, you wont be able to pick up ur pieces with ur asz. "

"Too bad don’t have anything to f-- you other way I would to. "
"That emotional state that you drive me today is a nothing compare to what I’m capable for. You will “fly” in an apartments like a ball... I will be kicking you off all walls, f---."
"I want you to go and shoot yourself, f---. I hate you so much. If you just knew how much I hate you. And even if you saying that you don’t understand what I’m saying – you should feel hate I feel to you, without words. Understand? Capisce? "

I'm not necessarily looking for any advice or comments here.  I simply wanted people on VJ, and other places I have posted about this whole episode, to know how things ended.  I don't claim that I was blameless or perfect.  I believe my fiancee has BPD.  It's really a moot point, because what's important is that we were living in different, and incompatible, realities.

I would be fine with it if VJ moderators immediately locked this thread.  The immigration-related issue here, is how did this all end.  I wanted people to know what happened next, after she was removed from my house with a restraining order, and that now, apparently, the final chapter has been written, with her return to her home country.

[edit 2tallbill added some blank lines to make the post easier to read]

Offline msmoby

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Philnatseaman

thanks for sharing this (near) horror story.

I read how this evolved and now this summary, but I'd love to know how many times you met and how she behaved in the FSU.

Looking back did you see ANYTHING that might help others as some sort of 'red flag' ?


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Offline Chemist

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Welcome back Philnatseaman,

I take it that this is a continuation of this thread?

It sounds like you never married her and she's back in the Ukraine.  Good for you.  I'm sure none of this was easy but you did it anyways.  There isn't much to be ashamed of.

Do your best to learn from this experience.  I suggest that you hang around here and realize that two visits over a year apart isn't enough to really know a person.
It is fortunate that a woman's charms can arrest a man's intelligence long enough for copulation to take place.

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Phil,

Sobering story! It seems that you were perhaps protected by some guardian angel.

For my self I am also curious to know more about your time together with her and her daughter in Ukraine. Did you meet any of her family or friends?

Also did you ever get to know the daughter as a person?

AvHdB

“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

Offline nunya

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Wow!  Thanks for sharing Phil. 

This is a thread worth saving to show to all men what could happen if you get involved with a woman you really do not know.


Offline Krassie

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You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed,  to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...

Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If  YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?

Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe  are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that  you didn't tell us.

Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.

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I wanted people to know how things turned out, so I'm going to summarize and keep it brief and to the point as best I can.  I think it's relevant FROM AN IMMIGRATION STANDPOINT, because WHAT THE HECK DO YOU AS A US CITIZEN, DO WHEN ALL HECK BREAKS LOOSE AFTER YOU'VE BROUGHT YOUR FIANCEE OVER?

.......


I'm not necessarily looking for any advice or comments here.  I simply wanted people on VJ, and other places I have posted about this whole episode, to know how things ended. I don't claim that I was blameless or perfect. 

A long time ago, someone told me that the most important parts of any correspondence are in the first and last paragraphs.

Obviously the relationship failed and somehow managed to have enough sense or luck to work your way out.

With the quote above, it would be interesting to find out what you feel were your failings or imperfections that contributed to the demise of the relationship.

Offline TomT

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Phil avoided being drawn and quartered but readers should be aware that the outcome had more to do with luck than with management. Had the woman been a bit more clever and had she relied on a women's rights group (instead of the half-wit that she was screwing) for legal advice, things might have been very ugly. If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.

Offline Philnatseaman

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You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed,  to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...

Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If  YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?

Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe  are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that  you didn't tell us.

Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.

I brought the previous girlfriend over for only the night before getting the restraining order.  She supported and encouraged me in getting that process done the next day.  It's not like they both lived with me at the same time.

Yes, cultural and time zone adjustments could be described as a "state of shock".  Certainly I experienced this myself during visits to her.  The question is what do you DO about this state of shock?  How do you behave towards your dear one?  Do you start fights and find excuses to avoid affection and intimacy?  Basically she was trying to use rationing of affection, intimacy, and sex as a manipulation weapon, and I wasn't buying it.  Before coming over, (and yes the relationship was sexual in her country) she had dropped all kinds of hints to let me know that she would be very sexual with me here, made a production out of telling me she was making sure she brought enough of her favorite birth control pills from her country, etc.  It was just one way she was used to controlling men.  Apparently this type of manipulation worked for her on some previous men.

Online BC

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If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.

A fallacy in itself.

Offline Philnatseaman

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Phil,

Sobering story! It seems that you were perhaps protected by some guardian angel.

For my self I am also curious to know more about your time together with her and her daughter in Ukraine. Did you meet any of her family or friends?

Also did you ever get to know the daughter as a person?

AvHdB

Yes, I met mom, spent a good amount of time with both mom and daughter in her country.  That's about all her family.  I didn't meet any of her friends, and really only was aware of one, who she met with once while I was there, but I never met.  Her other friends seemed to be largely already in USA, Australia, etc.

I got to know her daughter reasonably well.  I liked her.  She is a good kid.  She shouldn't have the burden of having to take care of mom's emotions.   The daughter was part of the reason I decided to bring my fiancee over, my do-gooder streak in wanting the daughter to have a future with more opportunities.

There were not actually from Ukraine, but Moldova, right next to Ukraine, between Romania and Ukraine.  They are cultural Russian/Ukrainians in a country that is basically reverting increasingly to being heavily culturally Romanian.

Offline Krassie

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Just be happy that it's over that way, and be more cautious in the future. Unfortunately there are no perfect people in this world... Pay attention to details!  Real beauty is under the skin.

Offline Philnatseaman

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Phil avoided being drawn and quartered but readers should be aware that the outcome had more to do with luck than with management. Had the woman been a bit more clever and had she relied on a women's rights group (instead of the half-wit that she was screwing) for legal advice, things might have been very ugly. If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.

You have information that she was screwing him?  Do share that data.  Well, maybe in a threesome with his wife, after I had her removed.  That seemed to be one of this guy's fantasies, and perhaps his dominant reason for convincing me to bring her here in the first place.  He was like her fan club, but she didn't show the BPD side to him, because he wasn't a close enough person.  Maybe in almost two months at his house, she showed that side, and they had their threesomes.  She was his interpreter when he met his wife.  And the two of them, my ex and his wife, were friends, off and on, for years.

Offline Philnatseaman

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You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed,  to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...

Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If  YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?

Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe  are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that  you didn't tell us.

Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.

Forgot to address the medical/mental health question... Yes, I believe she has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)  Basically the only thing the immigration process could have discovered would have been if she had been committed to some institution.  It used to be part of the consulate interview process, to get a "crazy report" showing they had never been institutionalized, or did not suffer from mental illness.  My ex did not have to go through this process, for whatever reason.  Also, BPD would not necessarily lead to institutionalization, and standards for institutionalization are probably different there.  For example, self-mutilation/cutting would not necessarily lead to institutionalization, not that she was a cutter, I don't think she was.  She managed her BPD in other ways.  Also, it seemed to get more pronounced (the mood swings) after the birth of her daughter around age 25, from what she told me.  Also, my ex would have just bribed to get the report she needed.  She did that with some of the medical/vaccination stuff.  That's how business gets done there.

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You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed,  to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...

Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If  YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?

Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe  are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that  you didn't tell us.

Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.

Forgot to address the medical/mental health question... Yes, I believe she has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)  Basically the only thing the immigration process could have discovered would have been if she had been committed to some institution.  It used to be part of the consulate interview process, to get a "crazy report" showing they had never been institutionalized, or did not suffer from mental illness.  My ex did not have to go through this process, for whatever reason.  Also, BPD would not necessarily lead to institutionalization, and standards for institutionalization are probably different there.  For example, self-mutilation/cutting would not necessarily lead to institutionalization, not that she was a cutter, I don't think she was.  She managed her BPD in other ways.  Also, it seemed to get more pronounced (the mood swings) after the birth of her daughter around age 25, from what she told me.  Also, my ex would have just bribed to get the report she needed.  She did that with some of the medical/vaccination stuff.  That's how business gets done there.

Phil,

Now you seem to be seeking some kind of justification.

Forget justification... it's over isn't it?

Where were your blind spots?

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Just when I thought we were going to get through this without hearing about BPD again...

Phil, you were lucky. And again we only are getting one side of the story....

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BC, are you Irish, Italian or colour blind?

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Rosco, PLEASE don't ask that...  :snivel:
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Offline Philnatseaman

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Phil,

Now you seem to be seeking some kind of justification.

Forget justification... it's over isn't it?

Where were your blind spots?

Don't care about justification, validation, etc ... moot point.. simply sharing my story for those who might benefit from it in future, like I benefitted from hearing Bryan's story and made different choices. He's the one paying $3k monthly spousal support.

Blind spots? I'll write a mini book on that later. For now I'll just say I excused her bad behavior as either cultural differences or simply being  extremely stressed. I was ignorant of personality disorders like BPD. I allowed her American friend to explain away her behavior on those grounds and accept his and her assurances she would be normal woman once in USA. Anyone who is poo-pooing BPD is simply unaware and inexperienced like I was before this mess. I don't need their approval and agreement and I'm sharing for those who are open to seeing what's actually there.  I have two close friends who have been in LTRs with a BPD and we instantly understand each other on a deep level when talking about those relationships. The toddler rages, the splitting, the constant projection, until you've lived with it, it is hard to understand, including the seductive tractor beam hold a BPD can have on you.

Offline TomT

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Phil avoided being drawn and quartered but readers should be aware that the outcome had more to do with luck than with management. Had the woman been a bit more clever and had she relied on a women's rights group (instead of the half-wit that she was screwing) for legal advice, things might have been very ugly. If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.

You have information that she was screwing him?  Do share that data.  Well, maybe in a threesome with his wife, after I had her removed.  That seemed to be one of this guy's fantasies, and perhaps his dominant reason for convincing me to bring her here in the first place.  He was like her fan club, but she didn't show the BPD side to him, because he wasn't a close enough person.  Maybe in almost two months at his house, she showed that side, and they had their threesomes.  She was his interpreter when he met his wife.  And the two of them, my ex and his wife, were friends, off and on, for years.

She screwed him one way or the other, I suppose.

Offline Philnatseaman

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Just when I thought we were going to get through this without hearing about BPD again...

Phil, you were lucky. And again we only are getting one side of the story....

Yes, I'm doing my best to be accurate and fair, but it is from my point of view. Shall I include angry emails she wrote me,' and invite her to participate here?
BPDs  also rearrange facts in their heads to match their emotions, and convince themselves of the correctness of their alternate reality. So it would certainly be colorful and entertaining even if not always factual.  VJ deleted her posts from the thread there, unfortunately, for TOS violations.I would have preferred they remain. She was trying to say she was held prisoner and trafficked. Doesn't exactly jibe with being removed via a restraining order.

Offline Philnatseaman

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quotation fixed 2tallbill
She screwed him one way or the other, I suppose.


OK. And thanks for directing me here. I recall it was you who found me over at VJ.

Offline TomT

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Actually, I believe that it was Boris who found you first; I simply extended the invitation. Some of the bizarre responses that you were getting on VJ made me cringe. Don't get me wrong, we have some winners here but they are in the minority.

Offline Manny

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Yes, I'm doing my best to be accurate and fair, but it is from my point of view. Shall I include angry emails she wrote me,' and invite her to participate here?
BPDs  also rearrange facts in their heads to match their emotions, and convince themselves of the correctness of their alternate reality. So it would certainly be colorful and entertaining even if not always factual.  VJ deleted her posts from the thread there, unfortunately, for TOS violations.I would have preferred they remain. She was trying to say she was held prisoner and trafficked. Doesn't exactly jibe with being removed via a restraining order.

If you do invite her here, it is highly unlikely that we will delete her posts. Consider that before you do in case she writes anything you may find inconvenient. I am not suggesting anything by that, just a friendly caution.
Read a trip report from North Korea >>here<< - Read a trip report from South Korea, China and Hong Kong >>here<<

Look what the American media makes some people believe:
Putin often threatens to strike US with nuclear weapons.

Offline cufflinks

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Pman,

Very sorry to hear what you had to endure as I am sure you had honorable intentions especially considering what you said about giving the daughter a better life too - what would you advise doing differently (yourself and the rest of us) to avoid such a situation in the future?

P.S.what and where is VJ?


 

 

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