Bloody Passports!

[msmoby]

Hello Andrew

Indeed,  I read the whole thread - I tried to help you with your incorrect posts re ID cards and your stating you'd have no primary source of ID.. [ note for many folk in EEA nations - the ID card IS the primary source of proving ID and travelling within the EU ]

So, while your UK passport is being replaced you could still travel [ within the EEA ] and prove your ID -not much of an inconvenience...

[Manny]

Moby, where do you get this stuff from? Non-Estonian citizens who hold an Estonian identity card are not able to use it as a travel document outside of Estonia within the EU -- so says the link you posted yourself. 

[msmoby]

Moby, where do you get this stuff from? Non-Estonian citizens who hold an Estonian identity card are not able to use it as a travel document outside of Estonia within the EU -- so says the link you posted yourself.  

Why am *I* always being told to read, properly !!??

Manny:  Could 'non-citizens' in this case refers to (mainly) ethnic-Russian residents of Estonia - who have no voting rights.. example relevant to Latvia ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_(Latvia)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document
An Estonian ID card is officially recognised by all member states of the European Union for intra EU travel.

I have used my CY ID card - no longer valid as I am not CY resident-  to travel within Europe and into the UK - while I was renewing a UK passport's Russian  Visa and my IRL passport was temporarily ( illegally) retained by a Volgograd Policeman

As you know, My Wife is not an EU Citizen, but has the right to travel freely as her residency card complies with the EU ID card format .. You'll know we have tested this in FR / NL / B and returning to the UK.

Such a hindrance on our Andrew would be a breach of Directive 2004/EC/38 - as I already posted - if a UK Border Agency representative tried to stop andrewfi from entering the UK - that would be a breach of his rights of freedom of movement.


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:229:0035:0048:EN:pdf








 

[AvHdB]

Moby, where do you get this stuff from? Non-Estonian citizens who hold an Estonian identity card are not able to use it as a travel document outside of Estonia within the EU -- so says the link you posted yourself.  

[Manny]

We are not discussing Latvia or Cyprus. In Estonia those people are grey passport holders.

The point remains that your linked original article says this:

Use as a travel document

Since Estonia's accession to the European Union since 2004, Estonian citizens who possess an Estonian identity card are able to use that as a travel document within the EU, to Iceland, Macedonia [7], Norway, Switzerland and Croatia instead of a passport. However, non-Estonian citizens who hold an Estonian identity card are not able to use it as a travel document outside of Estonia within the EU. Since 3rd September 2007, newly issued ID cards to EU/EEA citizens allow them travelling inside the Schengen area.

Further, non citizens may or may not be grey passport holders. A UK citizen would be a non citizen of Estonia also.

Maybe you should go and edit the Wikipedia article and insert a few assumptive opinions Moby?

[msmoby]

We are not discussing Latvia or Cyprus. In Estonia those people are grey passport holders.

No Manny, we are talking EU Directives and I think you know I know more about this that you

1/ andrewfi is a citizen of the UK and therefore EU Citizen

2/ non-citizens of Estonia / Latvia aren't EU citizens

3/ andrewfi stated that while he gave up his current passport to be renewed that he would lose his 'primary source of id' .. In his resident nation this would BE his ID card - and it would allow him painless travel within Schengen members and an interesting discussion at a UK entry point

EDIT: Andrews'd ID card would say Nationality: UK

Further, non citizens may or may not be grey passport holders. A UK citizen would be a non citizen of Estonia also.

We both know that non-citizen - in the context of Latvia and Estonia means something else, in addtion to someone who isn't a citizen ! It has no relelvnce to andrewfi - perhaps to any partner that is a non-citizen - but not directly to him.

Maybe you should go and edit the Wikipedia article and insert a few assumptive opinions Moby?

May be you can admit you were too quick ?

[AvHdB]

Moby & Manny,

There is some confusion what you can and can not do with such a card. But it does not work for opening beers!

I have traveled (extensively) on the basis of the card (and my American passport with letters is ignored) in Croatia and Great Britain, at least I think that is what was on the the tunnel in France. Maybe it said something like Welcome to the Beautiful South.

But I assumed in a perhaps an over the top reply to Andrew that he had such a card. In my RUA youth I was not so mature.

I assumed that Andrew had a legal status in Estonia as a member of another European country. He should be able to move around on this card.

AvHdB

[msmoby]

Hi AvHdb

May be he doesn't have one ...... Estonian ID card, that is... 

If he DOES, he just learnt something, and I'm available to advise on his rights for the price of a beer - as long as it doesn't entail opening the bottle with me teeth ! 

[Manny]

Further, non citizens may or may not be grey passport holders. A UK citizen would be a non citizen of Estonia also.

We both know that non-citizen - in the context of Latvia and Estonia means something else, in addtion to someone who isn't a citizen ! It has no relelvnce to andrewfi - perhaps to any partner that is a non-citizen - but not directly to him.

I read it as a non citizen -- period. A non citizen is a non citizen; a person who is not an Estonian citizen. I am using the English definition as opposed to the more usual "Moby's definitions to argue with till the cows come home" that you prefer to employ.

[msmoby]

I read it as a non citizen -- period. A non citizen is a non citizen; a person who is not an Estonian citizen. I am using the English definition as opposed to the more usual "Moby's definitions to argue with till the cows come home" that you prefer to employ.

Well, either way, Andrew's Estonian ID card - marked Nationality : UK - would allow him:

1/ proof of ID

2/ right to travel in EEA nations ( armed with the suitable response for an Irish / UK immigration official who might try to be as smart as you !)  

This are rights he suggested would be absent - I'm simply reassuring him otherwise....

[Manny]

I'm sure he is thrilled to receive such expert advice. 

[andrewfi]

moby, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. 

What have I suggested I am missing?
Bear in mind for your posting pleasure and to aid your comprehension this is about travel to the USA, not about intra-EU travel.

[msmoby]

I'm sure he is thrilled to receive such expert advice.  

As andrewfi pointed out - elsewhere-  his post on here isn't a blog . it is open for comments / observations / suggestions - advice, even...

Andrew expressed frustration about the loss of his passport - whilst awaiting a replacement / a visa...  viz: lack proof of ID  / inability to travel and I pointed out why that need not be the case..

[Voyager]

moby, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. 

What have I suggested I am missing?
Bear in mind for your posting pleasure and to aid your comprehension this is about travel to the USA, not about intra-EU travel.

Indeed. You can cross a US land border with a suitable ID card (one that lists citizenship) but to fly to the USA you need a passport - period.

[andrewfi]

moby, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here.  

What have I suggested I am missing?
Bear in mind for your posting pleasure and to aid your comprehension this is about travel to the USA, not about intra-EU travel.

Indeed. You can cross a US land border with a suitable ID card (one that lists citizenship) but to fly to the USA you need a passport - period.

Thanks, I did not think I had missed anything.

moby, try reading the posts next time.

[msmoby]

Dear Andrewfi

don't ' thank' Voyager - he seems to have missed these :

>>If I get the new passport it takes a chunk of cash, about $110, the passport is issued from Dusseldorf (NOT THE UK!) and takes at least a month, a month during which my primary means of ID will be absent.<<

You repeated your 'folly' :

>>Being without one's primary ID is never convenient.<<

1/ I pointed out that this shouldn't BE the case, as you should have an Estonian ID card.

Then in answer to Sparky's suggestion to come 'home' to get a fast track passport application :

>>I had considered this but it is not practical. Cost WOULD then be an issue. Flights to the UK, a week or more stay in an hotel while I hang around for a passport, inconvenience for my work and not being with those for whom I care...

2/ having the Estonian ID card would mean it wasn't impractical - as travel would still be possible - no need to be away for a week ... I pointed out that the ID card permitted travel - you could apply and zoom back to Estonia to await a couriered passport...

Thanks, andrewfi - I read - just fine... and you 'NEED' to get a US passport [ edit: mega DUH.. ] Visa  for a 'freebie' trip .. I'm not the only poster to observe that your whinging about costs of travel docs / inconvenience is 'strange'   You don't have to go..

[Manny]

you 'NEED' to get a US passport

I don't think he needs a US passport; nor would he be entitled to one.

[Voyager]

you 'NEED' to get a US passport

I don't think he needs a US passport; nor would he be entitled to one.

Oh I dunno, learn a bit of spanish and they might just give you one. 

Dear Andrewfi

>>If I get the new passport it takes a chunk of cash, about $110, the passport is issued from Dusseldorf (NOT THE UK!) and takes at least a month, a month during which my primary means of ID will be absent.<<

Sorry if I'm interrupting a p***ing match here to ask a question,  but I'm curious, if Andrew is a UK citizen, would he still need a UK passport w/ visa to go into Russia, or would an Estonian ID card suffice?
Do EU drivers lic. or ID cards have citizenship info on them?

[andrewfi]

Voyager, I am tending to not reply to moby these days unless he has something sensible to say. I am not wasting good quality piss on him.

Good question though. For myself I'd not use an ID card from a  country in which I was not a citizen as a travel document. I have a friend who does. I think he is secretly into pain, or maybe he just wants to share his tales of woe.
He travels intra-EU by air at least four flights per week and rarely a week goes by without him getting some special treatment. Those of us around him are getting fed up with telling him to simply travel with a passport.

So, the answer is YES one CAN do it but one probably should NOT do it. It is unusual and when traveling one probably, as a matter of policy, wants to avoid standing out from the herd.

I have never been asked for ID by any official body or person, apart from when reporting being mugged, and I know that if I were asked then the ID I can offer would suffice for any likely purpose. A passport is a travel document and as for many people, being without can cause some problems but a second passport is not a sensible option for such occasional situations (before anyone chimes in about that option. )

[msmoby]

YES, I made a typo - now corrected.. but 'let's' not let my error deflect from the two mistakes andrewfi made  

Andrewfi - travelling on an EU member state ID card -inter EU - is not 'unusual' -as previously stated I have done it a lot and only ONCE got questioned as to WHY - ( UK) "passport having RU Visa inserted..  "

So,to summarise ..

1/ you SHOULD have an Estonian ID card - which IS primary ID in your nation of residency - and acceptable in the EU / EEA

2/ You could have travelled  ( inter EU/ EEA ) and got a fast track UK machine readable passport from the UK and flown back to await it being couriered back to Estonia..

3/ Andrewfi - as a UK citizen needs a Visa / Residency permit for the Russian Federation in his UK passport to enter/ leave the RF

[andrewfi]

Ah well, a word to the wise.
Passport is now sorted and winging its merry way to me.
However, for anyone following in my footprints (unlikely I know!)...

When the photographs were inspected at the passport office they were immediately recognised as not having been taken in the UK. We have no idea why that is except that the background of the pics was very light and the specs for UK passports state the background should not appear white when printed.
I checked and the background was OK and the officials did approve the pics but they asked questions about where I was and why I was not present.

That my previous passport was issued in Estonia also raised a big red, authority seeking flag.

Fortunately I have a rello with a head on his shoulders and a degree of 'presence' and his story was accepted.

The UKPA is obviously trying to cut down on people doing what I just did, this may well be the last time I get away with the tactic.

Overall from starting out to getting all paperwork knocked off will have taken just under a month. The visa took less than a week from online application to delivery (by courier tomorrow).