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Author Topic: Prenups ... any advice?  (Read 7931 times)

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Offline travellerr

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Prenups ... any advice?
« on: August 08, 2009, 06:18:45 PM »
I am not "rich" but do have a legit concern about being taken for a ride (we can thank my first wife for that bit of experience  >:( ). So how and when I do broach the subject of a prenup?

Offline ECR844

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2009, 06:28:41 PM »
----->Try here<-----

Offline fireeater

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2009, 06:29:25 PM »
I am not "rich" but do have a legit concern about being taken for a ride (we can thank my first wife for that bit of experience  >:( ). So how and when I do broach the subject of a prenup?

I would only worry about that after you have decided that she is the one, and you have met her and you both confirm it is a go.  tiphat


But I did have one, I was talking to mention it first, asked me what I thought, her idea was it could wait till after the wedding.  :laugh:

Welcome to the forum.  :)


Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 06:58:43 PM »
Traveler, most courts bend over backwards in the case of a foreign mate who has been brought to your home country. Most pre-nups are written by attorneys who don't understand immigration law, therefore often pre-nups in this kind of marriage tend to be easy to pierce.

The law views you in such a case as the wise and experienced citizen who has imported a naive, helpless, and trusting spouse who is lost in your culture. Your pre-nup is often viewed as if you tried to "structure" a way to end the marriage to your advantage. That gets it thrown out quickly.

Experienced immigration attorneys often say it's better to seal assets in irrevocable trusts long before the relationship matured to engagement level. But even that is not 100% foolproof.

Even the best pre nup or trust cannot get you out of the government requirement that you pledge to support her, and repay the government for any welfare costs, should the marriage not be successful. That usually doesn't happen because in international marriages that "go south" most guys are bankrupt by the time the system is finished with him anyway and she is enjoying his assets with a new man.

Time (don't be rushed and don't rush yourself) and judge of character--these are much better protection than pre nups.

Offline cufflinks

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2009, 07:27:30 PM »
The Board owner Manny thankfully clued me in to this group - as Manny says good advice "even if they are Yanks"...

http://www.sovereignsociety.com/

Their bottom line - think globally and whatever you do tell no one especially family and friends and your new wife about your offshore survival strategy - let them find out if you decide to will it to them at your reading when you are gone - in the mean time what Divorce Attorneys can not get a US or other "cooperative" jurisdictions' court order to freeze or seize can be you secret parachute to insure a soft landing if you wind up with a great actress who hooks up with the local chapter of the FSUW GCG aid and abetting club (Don't laugh there are entire feminazi run orgs to help poor defenseless "imported" princesses eviscerate you for having the Gaul to bring her her as your personal sex slave er ah um wife!)

I will say that with the help of those in the know here you should be able to avoid an extreme evile witch and GCG - but not always and so the Sovereign Society has a good free newsletter and an outstanding premium one for about $50 per year - I personally spoke to an attorney in NH and the problem is not with the Prenup per se but with the very aggressive divorce industry in the USA where Divorce Attorneys acknowledge that even though they will take the "little woman's" case on "contingency"  they will not stop till they personally get at least a third of everything you have and then "let her" have half of what is left- so best to learn who the handful of really knowledgeable sages that are here and their quite good and often common sense rules for weeding out a economic time bomb from the ladies who will make a good decent sincere wife and partner and stick by you through plenty and lean.

The former are plenty and documented in the various train wreck posts at RUA and the latter can in fact still be found with good counsel and sage advice along with some old fashioned common sense.


Online msmoby

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 06:41:19 PM »

Time (don't be rushed and don't rush yourself) and judge of character--these are much better protection than pre nups.


Amen to that .... or you could spend your time acting like a "secret squirrel" hiding your *food store* away from prying eyes and staying ALONE..


Offline KevinUK

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 08:53:18 AM »
I read somewhere (cant remember where) that prenups are not worth the paper they are written on.  A divorce judge will just ignore it. 

Offline fireeater

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 09:38:58 AM »
Kevin

It would depend on your own divorce laws as well, whether a prenup would be ignored or not. If done taking them into count when writting one, then it could be valid. A judge would have a hard time ignoring his own laws, or a valid contract which it is. . Put items into it that would abort your law then it could be ignored or considered invalid.  But also keep in mind that a prenup usually protects her as well, it is not just a one sided arrangement, as many hope it would be.

A good, competent lawyer who deals this area would be the best source for what is valid in your country or not. Also any pitfalls you may not be thinking of.

But a better idea is to understand your own laws, and work accordingly to this, if this does occur. Which one hopes they never have to experience.   

Whether you marry an FSU lady, or one from your own country you are still faced with this possibility that any marriage may fail. All you can do is your best to ensure it does not.
 


Offline cufflinks

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 06:37:59 PM »
Kevin

It would depend on your own divorce laws as well, whether a prenup would be ignored or not. If done taking them into count when writting one, then it could be valid. A judge would have a hard time ignoring his own laws, or a valid contract which it is. . Put items into it that would abort your law then it could be ignored or considered invalid.  But also keep in mind that a prenup usually protects her as well, it is not just a one sided arrangement, as many hope it would be.

A good, competent lawyer who deals this area would be the best source for what is valid in your country or not. Also any pitfalls you may not be thinking of.

But a better idea is to understand your own laws, and work accordingly to this, if this does occur. Which one hopes they never have to experience.   

Whether you marry an FSU lady, or one from your own country you are still faced with this possibility that any marriage may fail. All you can do is your best to ensure it does not.
 



There are extensive defensive strategies one can put in place PRIOR to becoming engaged to marry - they include transferring business and realty assets into Asset Protection Trusts that you are a beneficiary of - if established long before a marriage the corporate and realty assets are nearly impossible to pierce through a good Trust(s) entity... best she can get is half of your personal revenue which can be quite small as Corporate entities can reinvest funds and elect to pay a very small salary to the Owner(s) for a very long time while picking up quite a bit of owner's "business" expenses.

Furthermore best to lease a Condo or home as the primary residence at first and not put free and clear property at risk.  This applies to US based marriages as well - Friends operate an electronics components manufacturing business valued at one time over $100M - the youngest son got married to an AW from the local health club and after two years she filed for divorce for what ever reason - there were only 100 shares of the company and 5 kids - the father owned 51 shares and the 5 adult kids had an equal share - he had 9 shares as the youngest - you could only imagine the nightmare of valuations when she tried to get half of his shares - she wound up with an executive home free and clear and the money to support herself for many years as sort of a greenmail settlement.

There is an entire on shore and off shore business based upon asset protection trusts that would be good to have knowledge of - but for the average guy keeping himslef as "judgement proof" as possible the first few years is a good idea - if she stays with you after the Green Card 24 month process is over and is working to build a future with you then probably safe to build equity in your name and hers - otherwise watch out.

Every FSUW I have met in Boston (well over a dozen) had dumped her mule after her Green Card came in and openly said why not bring over a Russian woman you will get a least two good years out of her.  Same with the Brazilian ladies flooding in here now.  Truth in advertising.  A wise man pays head and learns from the mistakes of others.

Offline KevinUK

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 06:23:40 AM »
Kevin 

Whether you marry an FSU lady, or one from your own country you are still faced with this possibility that any marriage may fail. All you can do is your best to ensure it does not.
 

Very true!  I know a few guys who have lost half of everything including their pension to a UK divorcee.

Offline KevinUK

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2009, 06:28:16 AM »


Furthermore best to lease a Condo or home as the primary residence at first and not put free and clear property at risk. 


This advice is golden I think.  I have a mortgage but I only pay the interest and have no equity at all.  With property market in the UK it is actually negative equity at the min.  If I got divorced this would not be a bad problem to have. 

The only thing she could hit me for is my occupational pension - its a good one as im a public servant.  Is there any way to protect this investment?

Offline fireeater

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 07:48:22 AM »
Kevin

My advice is to find a good lawyer, make an appointment, and have a talk with him/her. Most would have no problem advising you on what the laws are concerning any downfall in a marriage. Since this is a concern for you then, whether she is a FSUW or local, it would seem the best way to ease your mind about this. They can also tell you, under your laws, anything you may need to do, or collect and save, prior to walking down the aisle, and saying those magic words. Since most laws are built from common sense, I do not see how your pension would be effected, if it is a short term marriage only. Judges are not all completely stupid. But again a professional could answer those in reality

Most young people do not need a prenup, since they have no assets to speak of when they get married. Those assets increase during any marriage, the longer the marriage then more assets could be effected if one occurs. There is no guarantee with marriage, or any relationship you have. You can only do your best, and not dwell on it as an issue.

My exfather in law got remarried, his children wanted hm to do a prenup. Since if it does fail at this point it would impact him much harder, he is already retired. He refused.  
Now for this type, his total assets would far exceed a young couple, as well as he has three children, who he should keep in mind.  I also doubt he did any the simple things either to protect himself, in case of a failure, as here their are some, if you know about them.  




Offline TomT

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 08:20:36 AM »
A marriage is not about protecting oneself; it is about sharing and not protecting oneself. If a guy sends the message to his intended that he is looking for a good deal, he had better be prepared for the possibility that she will look elsewhere for a better deal.
"Get away from the keyboard little man. I know where you live." (Message left in my facebook mailbox by our resident psychopath.)

Offline MND

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 08:45:14 AM »
I read somewhere (cant remember where) that prenups are not worth the paper they are written on.  A divorce judge will just ignore it. 

In most cases in Australia they have been found to be useless don't know about your side of the world though but i know a Ukrainian woman will take a pretty dim view of a pre-nup it would raise trust issues straight away.

Offline fireeater

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 10:04:28 AM »
I read somewhere (cant remember where) that prenups are not worth the paper they are written on.  A divorce judge will just ignore it. 

In most cases in Australia they have been found to be useless don't know about your side of the world though but i know a Ukrainian woman will take a pretty dim view of a pre-nup it would raise trust issues straight away.

Where the word trust comes into play, I agree. One would hope that any marriage would survive "till death do us part". But I had also has a few FSU women ask about this without any indication from me at all in this subject. So not all are against it, nor weak in the aspects of it.  :-X But I would agree most are not worth the time, or energy, unless you have enough valid reasons for doing one. And those reasons are not just financial from what I have read about the subject. Hence see a lawyer for your own circumstances, if it is a concern to you.

In the father in law example, they were worried since she is an"all about me" type of person. I have not heard directly or indirectly anyone speak of any good qualities in this lady, including his best friend. :chuckle:

Offline skiingandrunning

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 10:48:42 AM »
I'm with TomT as a marriage is about sharing and trust.  Like Mendy said, better to take the time to really get to know the lady before marrying, is it foolproof, no, but at least you are starting with trust (one of those important ingridents in marriage).  If any doubts exist, then take more time and if you do not have the time then maybe it's best not to get married. 

If you look at it like a business transaction (calculating an ROI of getting a RW), then why get married as it might be cheaper to just pay for companionship as you'll then have the option to change partners on a regular basis without the heartache of going through a divorce. 

I'll share a story from my aunt who asked for a prenup before her last marriage as the man she married had a few coins in his pocket and she wanted to show his family that money does not matter.  Anyways, she said it was a big mistake as they both had to have Lawyers look at it and go through the numbers (not sure if it's typical as I'm just relaying the story), essentially she said it was like a divorce before the marriage even happened and she was not asking for anything.  Just something to think about, as bringing a new wife over and then putting her through this might not be the best start. 

Offline cufflinks

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 06:15:14 PM »
Trust is a noble idea of course in a Utopian world we could all trust each other and above all the woman we choose to marry as a life long partner.

And if you want to be a Prince Charming and pull a Sir Paul McCartney and "marry for love" with no asset protection strategy or prenup.  Best of luck.

Then their is the world of reality:

a.  Over 50% of all marriages end in divorce in the USA, EU & UK

b. Money is the cause of most marital breakups - either not enough of it or worse one partner who spends when the other wants to save and invest.

c.  A man protects access to his wallet the way a woman protects access to her bed.

d.  A fool and his money are quickly parted - every FSUW I have met in Boston who was not married to her Russian husband and came here as a team - was already off of their GCG mule and on to the next better deal Stallion.

e. Nice people are rarely wealthy and wealthy people are rarely nice.

f.  Trust is always a good goal but it has to be earned and as Ronald Reagan is famous for saying Trust - but Verify!

So any man here listening to the advice of the veteran experts really has two choices - rush in like a romantic schoolboy fool and put his financial well being at risk in a eventual and very likely likely expensive divorce - or - take his time get to know her lay out a mutual plan for life and show trust but also verify she is willing to work to mutually desired and reasonably attainable goals.

Problem is the US system requires a K1 and marriage within 90 days - the ladies know this and are usually on their best "honeymoon" behavior and you really do not get enough time to really know them.

I look back on my life and the 2 year plus relationships that meant something to me but eventually broke off after several years were always due to the fact that we could not agree on a mutually desireable life's plan - for example what state to move to and live in, agreeing and actually working together to save for a home, car, business, vacations, large expenditures, investments etc...  It really is amazing how many women in the USA want to have equal rights and authority - especially with over 51% of graduating Professionals (Doctors & Lawyers) now women BUT really do not want responsibility and want to be taken care of  like Daddy's little princess.  I even had one yell why couldn't I be a millionaire stock broker?  To which my natural reply was why couldn't she be a Playboy Bunnie???  Naturally she was "nexted" as wealth creation and accumulation is a long term team effort by two people as a married husband and wife first agreeing upon and working towards the same life goals.  A business owner and executive's wife is expected to entertain business guests so in the end you really need a team player versus a woman who looks out for her own selfish interests.

Perhaps one of the best models presented here at RUA is the visit her at home and watch her interaction with her parents and family but even then it is no guarantee of the eventual outcome so a wise man trusts but verifies.


Online msmoby

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 02:02:51 AM »
Trust is a noble idea of course in a Utopian world we could all trust each other and above all the woman we choose to marry as a life long partner.

..and without it, Mike.. ANY marriage isn't going to last long..

And if you want to be a Prince Charming and pull a Sir Paul McCartney and "marry for love" with no asset protection strategy or prenup.  Best of luck.

The McCartney's got divorced in the UK - YES? .. Prenups are worth diddly - esp if there is a common child(ren) involved.



but even then it is no guarantee of the eventual outcome so a wise man trusts but verifies.


Just HOW do you "verify" and account for changes ahead you can't expect.. poor health, poorer economic situation, etc.?

 

Offline cufflinks

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2009, 07:36:42 PM »

Quote

Just HOW do you "verify" and account for changes ahead you can't expect.. poor health, poorer economic situation, etc.?
 

If one must explain basic common sense to a grown man - it really is a wasted effort because you are being your usual contrary self and really do not want or care to know especially if it is posted by some damn bloody Yank :smokin:

Offline fireeater

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2009, 08:34:55 PM »
On Prenups or marriage contracts as it may also be called, Belle provided a website where one of those threads is discussing this, from the womens point of view. Bottom line on these is if they are not written and signed with items for both sides equally ,then the odds are the judge would throw it out. Add in the length of a marriage before it falls apart an most would be invalid by that point anyway. Which is why your hear they are not worth the paper they are written on.  

On trust, one marries the other with that formost in their mind. If you cannot trust the other, then you should not get married.  If you cannot get your mind off this then you should never get married either. One goes into marriage with the conviction it will not fail.

But if it fails, understanding your Marriage and Divorce laws, which protect both sides, is a good thing. Because at that point, the word trust is no longer valid in your relationship. Finding out then you should have done something else, or kept something, is not the ideal time to find out you blew it, when a simple act would give you a different outcome.
 
      

Offline mirror

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 09:02:25 PM »
If any doubts exist, then take more time and if you do not have the time then maybe it's best not to get married.  

If you look at it like a business transaction (calculating an ROI of getting a RW), then why get married as it might be cheaper to just pay for companionship as you'll then have the option to change partners on a regular basis without the heartache of going through a divorce.  


Good said.

I didn't read this thread because of my thoughts that I will not understand (but it was too interesting for me) so today I opened and read it.

In Russia prenups is not not a widespread practice and when I was younger I didn't want even to hear about prenups.Now I am a little older and I vote for prenups.I see a marriage with prenups only.  I can say that I see a life with a man together even like a companionship.Although I expect a support from a man in my difficult time like I will do it for him too.

When I say about prenups I'd like to say that I don't worry about how much money a man has in his pocket and on bank accont,I worry more about mine. I don't have too much but I'd like to save them for a rainy day in my life. It is very interesting to read how men try to protect their money from women and don't think that some women can have own money to think about.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 09:21:17 PM »
John Cleese's third divorce will cost him more than half of his net worth and that is without any common children.  He didn't have a prenup and for some reason which wasn't specified the divorce was done in California, USA.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090818/ten-cleese-fuming-after-unfair-12-5m-div-8a3eada.html
Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

Offline hemingway

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2009, 09:42:27 PM »

Experienced immigration attorneys often say it's better to seal assets in irrevocable trusts long before the relationship matured to engagement level. But even that is not 100% foolproof...

That's the answer I found, when I looked a month ago. I am not sure if there is a minimum amount for a trust, but I don't think so. Elena of EM says prenuptial agreements are like a slap in the face to a new foreign bride. She suggests a trust also. Good point about nothing being foolproof. I had some extensive contact with a GCG. Man, she was ice cold. She loved lawyers, spoke of them like they were gods. I can't begin to imagine what she could do with her American feminist legal aid reps, the havoc she could wreak.

Mirror also makes the point that a woman has her own assets that she doesn't want up for grabs either. My understanding is that the prenuptial attorney must be a member of the bar in your state. It is also suggested that the agreement is explained to the person signing in their native language and English. I found a law firm in VA who does prenuptial agreements and can speak to clients in Russian. It shouldn't be a problem finding similar law firms in other states, if that is the direction someone wants to take.

Offline MND

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 09:51:45 PM »
Personally i am not for a Prenup i have seen in the past prenups instantly destroy relationships to say to your partner “I love you.” Then turn around and say the other three little words which have an evil twin, a polar opposite, a ying to its yang: “Sign the Prenup.” These words can be toxic Poison they can undermine trust, kill romance, stoke the flames of insecurity and sow the seeds of doubt between couples.

Just be aware of this as those three little words can cause problems, its a tough one do you or dont you

Offline mirror

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Re: Prenups ... any advice?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 09:54:53 PM »
I never had any conversation about prenup with a prospective man but I am curious how this discussion could be look like.  ;D like a friendly talk? a huge argument? I am sure this conversation must be done before a final sign in a legal office.


 

 

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