The Visa Problem?

[ECR844]

Here's a question for all of the experienced expats out there. How do you overcome the visa issue and be able to remain in country for such long periods without being married to a citizen or holding a full time job in country?
Say for example I had the ability to work from anywhere (Sochi, Siberia, downtown Moscow, where ever there was an internet and telephone connection) and make a decent wage independent of the local economy. Let's say this job would also enable me to do business and make money in Russia as well. How does one go about getting a visa and or arrangement where they can stay in country for longer than the 90/180 rule allows?

[Manny]

Used to be the case that folks would do "visa runs" to get the Russian visa renewed. Many folks working in Moscow would have a few days in Helsinki or Tallinn for this purpose. Apply from there and fly back in.

Then they changed the rules and required people to apply for visas from their home country (whose passport they travel on). No big deal for Europeans, but a PITA for the Yanks.

I am not sure how this was overcome (if it was) - I will be pleased to learn if there is a way.

[TwoBitBandit]

A few years ago Russia changed the way one-year business visas work.  It was around 2006 or 2007.  Before the change, you could stay in Russia for the whole visa term.  After the change, you could only be in Russia for 90 days in any 180-day period.  If you want to live in Russia, you need a work visa, a student visa or some other type of visa.  A plain business visa isn't enough.  That's really the biggest difficulty.  When these rules were changed, lots of foreigners left Russia.

The US State Department will issue a US citizen a SECOND passport if the citizen can show that they face significant hardship due to applying for visas.  However, the second passport is only good for two years.  I've never had to appear personally at a Russian consulate for my visas, so I imagine that one could get a visa in their second passport while they were still in Russia, with a US-based visa agency handling the logistics.  They could send it by DHL, then you could just exit Russia to a close location (like Geneva or Kiev) and return immediately on the other passport...saving you a trip back home.  I'm not 100% sure this would work: I haven't personally tried it.

[RG]

I don't know the answer, but I'm interested in reading others experiences here.
For Belarus, I can get up to a ~90 day private Visa, but it's unclear how this impacts the general 90 days per year in country allowance, if it does (private visa vs tourist visa).  You can not "buy" a Business visa for Belarus; it would need to be legitimate issued from a local company (and Ministry of Interior, IIRC).  There are provisions once married, that it's possible to become a legal permanent resident, but it's not something done in a week or two.

[Voyager]

How does one go about getting a visa and or arrangement where they can stay in country for longer than the 90/180 rule allows?

Go to spend the "Velvet Season" in Crimea?  

[ECR844]

Voyager,

That would be a less than ideal solution although one that would be strictly within the rules. However it would mean leaving on a regular basis with a lot of additional expenditures. I was hoping someone could enlighten us as to how people are able to stay in country for long periods with out leaving and truely living as an expat in the circumstances above.

[mendeleyev]

Keep your eyes peeled for changes in this coming soon. The Medvedev government is set to allow year long visas, without the messy leaving for 90 days, for foreign citizens who are high income/high value talent employees of Russian corporations or registered foreign corporations doing business in Russia.

[WestCoast]

Keep your eyes peeled for changes in this coming soon. The Medvedev government is set to allow year long visas, without the messy leaving for 90 days, for foreign citizens who are high income/high value talent employees of Russian corporations or registered foreign corporations doing business in Russia.

Mendy so what you're saying is that it might be possible in the future for people to get year long visas but no members of RUA would qualify.      

[andrewfi]

Mendy so what you're saying is that it might be possible in the future for people to get year long visas but no members of RUA would qualify.      

You may laugh, but that's about it!

When the visa regime was changed a few years ago it caused big problems for companies who employ brains. Many brain people were accustomed to being able to fly in and out as required and all of a sudden they could no longer do so. The brains have a much greater value to Russia than brawn and, frankly, it is easier to work illegally as brawn than brain and brawn is much more willing to take the accompanying risks.
Changes to the visa regs to enable brain to work more efficiently have been on the cards for a while.

I doubt it will help people wanting to go squat in Moscow very much, maybe you guys will have to go and be 'students'.

[Brasscasing]

Two [edit: Four] posts removed - Off topic.

Brass

[andrewfi]

Thank you Brass!  

Apart from the student thing the English teaching thing used to work quite well, problem always seemed to be getting a company to give the backing to get the visa. There are limitations here though because 'proper' teaching institutions have fairly high standards when it comes to the people they will take on to their staff. We may know how to use our langauge quite well but how many of us can say 'why' we use as we do? The other drawback is the necessity to actually do some work.

I seem to remember a sometime visitor here managed a teaching gig based upon his skill as a conversationalist and garnered a visa in that way but last I knew he was still making regular exits from Russia.

One can always simply go under the radar and overstay and take the risk of fines on exit or if stopped by the police. I bet more people do this than will admit to doing so here.

[ECR844]

Perhaps our forum member 'Andrewfi,' could explain to the forum the intracies of how he's able to 'squat' in Tallinn long term whilst maintaining a business that operates outside of his host expatriate country as well as inside of it?

[Olga_Mouse]

One can always simply go under the radar and overstay and take the risk of fines on exit or if stopped by the police.

IMO, it's quite complicated for foreigners to go under radar even here in Moscow, not to mention the rest of Russia!

With the way you dress, the way you walk, the expression on your faces you guys stand out way too much to pass unnoticed even when you don't open your mouth  

[andrewfi]

Perhaps our forum member 'Andrewfi,' could explain to the forum the intracies of how he's able to 'squat' in Tallinn long term whilst maintaining a business that operates outside of his host expatriate country as well as inside of it?

[Edited to remove insult - Manny]

Eric, I don't know what 'intracies' are so I can not comment in detail.
I do not squat, except when using a Turkish toilet.
All I can say extra is this: if I thought for one second that you could do what I do then I would share. You can't so, in the interests of remaining on topic, I will not waste your time.
You obviously do not have any idea of what I do or how I do it, nor of my legal status so your attempts to guess are a waste of your talents, but to make your life easier, you can not do what I do; the avenue is not open to you.

Olga, you are correct to note that foreigners do tend to stand out but if the worst that is likely to happen is a request for a 'forgetfulness fee' from time to time then the fee might be one worth paying. I do not know coz I don't do it, but on my previous visits when 'papered up' the lack of paperwork would simply not have been an issue. It always seems, not just in Russia, that in many cases dealing with a miscreant who insists upon being dealt with is more trouble than it is worth when the miscreant is obviously not a permanent resident.

[Olga_Mouse]

Olga, you are correct to note that foreigners do tend to stand out but if the worst that is likely to happen is a request for a 'forgetfulness fee' from time to time then the fee might be one worth paying.

I do not know coz I don't do it, but on my previous visits when 'papered up' the lack of paperwork would simply not have been an issue.

It always seems, not just in Russia, that in many cases dealing with a miscreant who insists upon being dealt with is more trouble than it is worth when the miscreant is obviously not a permanent resident.

Andrew, I suspect however that the lack of paperwork you had to deal with previously was the absence of registration stamp - or the lost migration card in the worst case.

Expired visa is, however, considered being a much more serious violation of existing rules; so if you'd ever be able to get out of this situation, the "forgetfulness fee" would be REALLY high 

[andrewfi]

I agree the fee'd be high.
The point was that I was never asked for papers by coppers who were likely to be 'real', although to be fair, I did not know of the fake police scam going on in tourist areas at the time.

BUT, if the choice was between paying a fairly high fee to a policeman every now and then and taking a plane back to one's home country, or even to one adjacent to Russia, then one could well afford to be quite generous when looking at the cost benefit ratio. The cost of coming back to, for example, Tallinn, from Moscow would be several days of time, several days of hotels and the transport costs. So, a couple of hundred Euros each time, assuming doing it on the cheap cheap; plus visa costs of course.

The analysis depends upon the likelihood of being stopped by somebody diligent enough to give up an afternoon in order to book a non-trouble causing miscreant. I do know that on this board people have recommended not bothering with visa regirstrations coz it is so rare to get asked. That said, my guess is that flying out from Russia would attract more attention than taking a bus though. What is the penalty for overstaying a visa, when discovered on exit?

Oh, found this: mixed opinions from the expats Kinda where I'd expect opnion to rest. Depends upon your taste for risk I think, but frm this I'd be happier to do this on a train or bus than on a plane and that fits with my own experiences.

[Olga_Mouse]

That said, my guess is that flying out from Russia would attract more attention than taking a bus though.

What is the penalty for overstaying a visa, when discovered on exit?

I know for a fact that if a foreigner overstays his visa for no more than 72 hours & presents a paper from the doctor saying he had some health condition preventing him from flying earlier (e.g. acute middle ear inflammation...   ) he can leave even via SVO without troubles - after contacting the consul-on-duty at the airport for the visa extension.

But I guess you guys are talking here about months of overstaying, not hours \ days?

[andrewfi]

That said, my guess is that flying out from Russia would attract more attention than taking a bus though.

What is the penalty for overstaying a visa, when discovered on exit?

I know for a fact that if a foreigner overstays his visa for no more than 72 hours & presents a paper from the doctor saying he had some health condition preventing him from flying earlier (e.g. acute middle ear inflammation...   ) he can leave even via SVO without troubles - after contacting the consul-on-duty at the airport for the visa extension.

But I guess you guys are talking here about months of overstaying, not hours \ days?

I think they are.
Which is why the penalty thing is interesting. In Finland, for example, they used to charge a daily rate for overstaying one's visa but they seemed, as I recall, to not charge it in full, or all the time (dunno if they still do this). Is Russia's system based upon a daily rate? How rigidly is it applied?
Knowing would help to understand choices needed.

[Olga_Mouse]

It was around 2006 or 2007.  Before the change, you could stay in Russia for the whole visa term.  

After the change, you could only be in Russia for 90 days in any 180-day period.  

I guess it was June 1, 2007 - when Russia has signed a certain "visa facilitation agreement" with EU?  

By the way, Russian citizens are obtaining Schengen multi-entry business visas upon exactly the same conditions: 90 days stay out of each 180-day period.

As reciprocity is the main rule of diplomacy, I'm not quite getting what are you guys complaining about?  

There surely are exceptions:

1) Ukrainian politicians wanted to kiss Western asses so much that they've introduced visa-free regime unilaterally (...even though Markje and Lena believe the landing \ immigration card is still a visa...   ) - while Ukrainians need visas to EU and the States.

2) Turkey plans to cancel all the visas for Russian citizens, no matter how symbolic they are for the moment ($20 or something and a sticker into the passport, straight at the airport);

http://news.mail.ru/politics/3786084/

...while here Turkey is on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs' "list of high illegal immigration risk" countries - thus tourist invitations for Turks are just impossible, and business invitations cost double & can't be obtained as an "express" procedure.

Why is Turkey doing that? Because their economy needs     Russian tourists spend.

Why Ukraine did that? To kiss ass & to bring more western     to their country.

Will Russia do something of that kind? Obviously not before Western countries would change the rules applicable to year business-visas issued for Russian citizens  

So нечего на зеркало пенять, когда рожа крива  

[Olga_Mouse]

Is Russia's system based upon a daily rate? How rigidly is it applied?

Knowing would help to understand choices needed.

Overstaying with a paper from the doctor costs $100 \ 70 EUR per day, IIRC - but, let me remind you again, for no more than 72 hours totally.

[AvHdB]

Technically the paper you fill in is a Visa that is granted at the point of entry in Ukraine. But it is mostly a formality. If you doubt this just loose the other half. Infact it is the exact same paper that you filled say ten years ago. Some five years ago the Ukraine authorities abolished getting a visa at the local consulate, for me either (The Hague or New York City).

Perhaps if the present regime in Kiev continues with there plans everyone will need to go back to getting a proper visa at there local consulate. (This (was) a good source of income) There is some talk of strengthening the CIS with Russia assuming more control of the borders.

So we will see.

[WestCoast]

By the way, Russian citizens are obtaining Schengen multi-entry business visas upon exactly the same conditions: 90 days stay out of each 180-day period.


Will Russia do something of that kind? Obviously not before Western countries would change the rules applicable to year business-visas issued for Russian citizens  

Olga has someone who assists "helpless foreigners" in dealing with travel and accommodation throughout Russia do you think that Russia will lift their visa rules for Sochi 2014 even if countries that require visas for Russians do not reciprocate for Russian citizens?

[Olga_Mouse]

Olga has someone who assists "helpless foreigners" in dealing with travel and accommodation throughout Russia do you think that Russia will lift their visa rules for Sochi 2014 even if countries that require visas for Russians do not reciprocate for Russian citizens?

As someone who deals with that particular type of paperwork on the daily basis, I personally (just my mousy 2 kopecks...   ) do not think the visa requirements will be lifted.

But it has always been much easier for organized groups of sportsmen or artists to obtain Russian visas than for ordinary tourists \ businessmen \ citizens using private invitations; even more so after the 1st of June 2007.

This surely applies to the Olympic teams of foreign countries  

[AvHdB]

It might be helpful if this discussion were broken into two separate one's; Russia and Ukraine rules. But some have commented on Estonia and Belarus.

The majority are talking about Russia and I wrote over Ukraine.

So you know a citizen of the Ukraine can enter until the end of October into Croatia. There are direct flights I believe both from Odessa and Kiev. I BELIEVE the same rules apply to Russia.

For an America there are also no visa requirements for Croatia, show you passport, smile and you are in.

It almost always is about: $ or € or £  javascript:replaceText ('%20:money:',%20document.forms.postmodify.message);

[skiingandrunning]

As reciprocity is the main rule of diplomacy, I'm not quite getting what are you guys complaining about?

Ms. Mouse,

If only this was true as a Russian getting a tourist visa for the USA has one year to use up the 180 days and based on what I have seen from my friends coming to visit, each time they have been allotted six months on entry, even if they are returning to the USA after long visit just a month prior (so that rule has some flexibility).  Plus, the Russian citizen has the option of purchasing a second year for an additional $100 USD.  For us traveling to Russia, a tourist visa has a length of only 30 days with an option of getting the business visa at close to double the price.