Spelling & Translation clinic. ;)

[dbneeley]

VERY, VERY educative

Did you mean educational?

Hm... 

ABBYY Lingvo says "educative" and "educational" are synonyms?   

If these two words have different meanings, please be so kind to explain 

Olga,

Abbyy Lingvo is correct technically, but "educative" is rarely used, and almost never in every-day conversation.

David

[Olga_Mouse]

Olga,

Abbyy Lingvo is correct technically, but "educative" is rarely used, and almost never in every-day conversation.

Hm...  Rasputin, Ed, please do kindly tell me if my understanding is correct:

- educational establishment (образовательное учреждение)

but

- educative story (познавательная история).

 

[mendeleyev]

Olga, correct as you posted above.

dbneeley is also correct in that most English speakers rarely use educative. In fact, to say rarely would be an understatement.


Here are a couple of common English uses:

Harvard University is an educational institution/establishment.

The students found the classroom experience to be very educational.

[dbneeley]

Olga,

Abbyy Lingvo is correct technically, but "educative" is rarely used, and almost never in every-day conversation.

Hm...  Rasputin, Ed, please do kindly tell me if my understanding is correct:

- educational establishment (образовательное учреждение)

but

- educative story (познавательная история).

 

Olga,

I don't know Rasputin and Ed's experience or background, but my university degree is in English, my first professional writing job was as a copy writer creating radio and television commercials--which I began two weeks after my sixteenth birthday--my career for over thirty years involved corporate and technical communications, and even today I am consulted by various English translators here in Ukraine about the nuances of the English language. This Fall, I am considering a position involving teaching English at a local university.

Although I am not perfect, I think my qualifications on such a small point of English grammar are enough that you may believe me.

Most references to "educative" are either within the educational establishment--university programs in education or graduate papers--or by immigrants or others for whom English is a second language.

Among native speakers, though, you would rarely if ever hear the term in spoken English. Even among academics in the field of education, it is largely confined to writing. Even then, it is largely a part of the attempt to sound more educated--but often comes off as merely florid or pretentious.

Thus, my statement--the word is technically correct but rarely used, to the point of seeming strange to a native speaker--which is why it was questioned originally. In your example regarding an "educative story"--a native English speaker would use "educational" there as well.

David

[froid]

Educative reminds me of Mila's use of "sportive".  I still can't get her to stop using it. 

[Herrie]

Educative reminds me of Mila's use of "sportive".  I still can't get her to stop using it.  

If the Dutch wouldn't have "traded" New York for Suriname, this problem probably wouldn't exist (since you'd be all speaking Dutch  ). Both educative (educatief) and sportive (sportief) are commonly used words in Dutch  

[Olga_Mouse]

I don't know Rasputin and Ed's experience or background,

They both are native Russian speakers, so I hoped they could understand the difference in Russian equivalents as well...

[Voyager]

Thus, my statement--the word is technically correct but rarely used, to the point of seeming strange to a native speaker

That was my impression too, I don't think that I have ever heard the term used in conversation, even if it's technically correct.   

[mendeleyev]

They both are native Russian speakers

I hope Misha will be pleased to learn that he is a native speaker. 

[Stirlitz]

ABBYY Lingvo says "educative" and "educational" are synonyms?  

Lingvo cannot be trusted. It is an obsolete dictionary in terms of vocabulary. Basically when they made up their dictionary they simply digitalized old Soviet English-Russian paper dictionaries with minor ostensible changes, corrections, additions and improvements. I see inaccuracies in it very often as I use it in my work. I have even confronted them several times about it and they reluctantly listened; for example, they used to translate зеркало as looking-glass and it was only after I gave them a hard time about it when they put mirror first and marked looking-glass as obsolete use.

The source paper dictionaries are bad because they 1) are very old and 2) were compiled in 1930s when it was not possible to go abroad to study and work, and any private communication with foreigners was dangerous. So linguists had to use classical books by Dickens which dated back to the 19th century. You can imagine the vocabulary and usage and its relevance to the present!

I mainly use Lingvo as a shell for other dictionaries such as Longman which is very trustworthy. If I am to use a Russian-English dictionary I always check suggestions in Longman.

So use it with caution. You may find yourself in silly situations if you trust Lingvo.

[Olga_Mouse]

I have even confronted them several times about it and they reluctantly listened; for example, they used to translate зеркало as looking-glass and it was only after I gave them a hard time about it when they put mirror first and marked looking-glass as obsolete use.

  

So use it with caution. You may find yourself in silly situations if you trust Lingvo.

Hm...    So which one would you recommend to use? Prompt maybe? 

...and what do you think about educative \ educational? 

[dbneeley]

I have even confronted them several times about it and they reluctantly listened; for example, they used to translate зеркало as looking-glass and it was only after I gave them a hard time about it when they put mirror first and marked looking-glass as obsolete use.

  

So use it with caution. You may find yourself in silly situations if you trust Lingvo.

Hm...    So which one would you recommend to use? Prompt maybe? 

...and what do you think about educative \ educational? 

Olga, I mean no disrespect at all--but what does a non-native speaker's opinion of whether a word such as "educative" is used in normal communication by native speakers have to do with it?

If you wish to speak so that most people will understand you without question, it is normally best to learn the common forms. As an example--you were originally questioned about your use of the term by a native English speaker. Did it not occur to you then that the term was not normally used?

David

[Olga_Mouse]

Olga, I mean no disrespect at all - but what does a non-native speaker's opinion of whether a word such as "educative" is used in normal communication by native speakers have to do with it?

According to what I've been taught, the two words in question have a slightly different meaning. So I've placed Russian equivalents next to English words; and I would like to hear from someone who can understand Russian 

If you wish to speak so that most people will understand you without question, it is normally best to learn the common forms.

I would prefer my use of "educative" and "educational" being understood by the educated part of the audience    Which is not always equal to "most people" 

As an example - you were originally questioned about your use of the term by a native English speaker.

Did it not occur to you then that the term was not normally used?

It surely did - this is why this thread exists, I presume? 

[dbneeley]

I would prefer my use of "educative" and "educational" being understood by the educated part of the audience    Which is not always equal to "most people" 

Not to belabor the point, but when it comes to English I am somewhat more educated and experienced than most. The distinction you seek is one without meaning in modern English, despite any difference that may or may not exist in Russian.  There is never a complete one-to-one correspondence between words in two languages, and if the Russian words have different meanings those differences are lost in translation to English.

For example, from thesaurus.com:

Main Entry:    educative
Part of Speech:    adjective
Definition:    educational
Synonyms:    edifying, enlightening, illuminating, illuminative, informative, instructional, instructive, scholastic, useful

Because you like language, I should point out most sources claim that the average person in an English-speaking country has an active vocabulary of about five to ten thousand words, with passive vocabularies of perhaps three to five times that many. (English has the largest vocabulary of any language on earth; Russian, I believe, may be second but a fairly distant second).

To communicate clearly and precisely, the goal should be to be easily understood by the greatest number of people. Thus, attaining some mastery of the most common base words is a significant step.

There are always those who deliberately attempt to seem "educated" with elaborate verbiage. When their words seem contrived, though, the impression they make is far more negative than they might expect. I suggest that you consider focusing on communicating clearly and precisely and not trying to seem "more educated" with words that are rarely used in practice.

To this day, by the way, I often use grammar checkers to try to keep my language simple while conveying my meaning clearly. Otherwise, I may give an unfortunate and unintended impression of pedantry.

David

[froid]

I would prefer my use of "educative" and "educational" being understood by the educated part of the audience    Which is not always equal to "most people"

It is an archaic form that only lives on in the specialized educational field and library sciences world. 

What is the difference in meaning in the two Russian words that you "think" are the equivalent?