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Dating & Marriage With Women From Russia, Ukraine, Belarus & FSU => Dating in the FSU => Topic started by: Voyager on July 23, 2009, 09:56:21 PM

Title: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on July 23, 2009, 09:56:21 PM
 This topic has been split away from the Tatar thread

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8147.msg117085#msg117085
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on July 30, 2009, 04:44:33 AM


When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?   

We know that Muslim foundamentalists in Irak,Iran,Pakistan were existing for ages, but nobody said any one word about Tatars that they are terrorist just because they are Muslims. And I say more we ,Tatars, were grown up with Russian people and into Russian culture so we accept Russian culture like our own.

I can tell you one thing: sometimes Bashkirian people ( I live in Bashkiria so I see it )have something against Tatars, that Tatars came to Bashkirian territory to live and these 2 nationalities-both Muslims. You can see same in East.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on August 20, 2009, 11:27:07 PM
Quote from: mirror

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?  

We know that Muslim foundamentalists in Irak,Iran,Pakistan were existing for ages, but nobody said any one word about Tatars that they are terrorist just because they are Muslims.  


Well Mirror, I don't think your attitude that "All Ukrainians are traitors" is right, and I also don't agree with the (Americans) who think "All Muslims are terrorists". Manny was talking about a few causing all the trouble, not about all Muslims.


For us, Muslims are an alien culture. A handful don't, and want to preach extremism and other crap in the name of their religion. Hence Muslims get a bad press here because extremism is newsworthy.

And you are right, it's not Tatars that cause trouble, it's radicals from Pakistan & Saudi Arabia that are the fanatics.

We actually had dinner in Crimea with a couple, she is Tatar (Muslim) and her husband is Jewish.  They didn't have trouble with their families.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 20, 2009, 11:44:04 PM

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War)


Well Mirror, I don't think your attitude that "All Ukrainians are traitors" is right

Here we go again. I say about stereotypes and I repeated it many time (if to be honest I think this stereotype about Ukr is right  :nod: but it is just my private opinion) .

I can say that a stereotype about American businesmans is "they all are deceivers". You can laugh but when I see in a man's profile that he is a businessman I have some not  good suspicions.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 24, 2009, 08:19:53 PM
Most of them have dark hair and eyes.

Like Ukrainian girls?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on August 24, 2009, 08:39:31 PM
Most of them have dark hair and eyes.

Like Ukrainian girls?

Mirror, lots of Ukrainian girls have blonde hair, blue eyes.

Lots of Russians have dark hair and eyes.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 24, 2009, 08:59:20 PM

Mirror, lots of Ukrainian girls have blonde hair, blue eyes.

Lots of Russians have dark hair and eyes.


Ukrs (like a nationality) have dark hair and eyes more light than dark...but you can see too many Ukr with dark eyes  because they have dark color in their genes from Turks. 8)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on August 24, 2009, 09:12:40 PM

Mirror, lots of Ukrainian girls have blonde hair, blue eyes.

Lots of Russians have dark hair and eyes.


Ukrs (like a nationality) have dark hair and eyes more light than dark...but you can see too many Ukr with dark eyes  because they have dark color in their genes from Turks. 8)

Mirror, there is no one "Ukrainian typical appearance". In the far west there are many who have Polish genes. (Part of Ukraine was Polish territory before WWII). In the East (Don area) there are many with mixed Russian parentage. There are not that many Ukrainians with mixed Turkish heritage, as Ukraine does not border Turkey. Far more Russian citizens have mixed heritage (and dark features) than Ukrainians, because Russia borders the Turkish/Caucasus and central asian regions (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 24, 2009, 09:18:39 PM
Voyager ,
sorry,but Turkic tribes were living around Black sea always and they had a mixed marriages with Ukr for few centuries. Have a  look a hystory of 10- 11th century and come back to me.  

I found a map.It makes you easier to understand what I write about.

You can see how close Pecheneges were living with Kiev.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on August 24, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
Voyager ,
sorry,but Turkic tribes were living around Black sea always and they had a mixed marriages with Ukr for few centuries. Have a  look a hystory of 10- 11th century and come back to me.  

Yes, and the Ukrainians and Russians both intermarried, from Ukrainian & Russian territories that bordered Seljuk/Ottoman territories, and from when Russia was a vassal of the Mongols. Both Russians and Ukrainians have many people with mixed parentage, but Russia has more because of Eastern & Southern republics
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 24, 2009, 09:30:51 PM
You are right in some part.You can see that Russian,Ukr were living nearby Pechenegs but you can see also that Kiev was much closer to Pechenegs than Novgorod for example.

Everybody can understand why mixed marriage between Pechenegs and Ukr  were hapening those time:because Kipchaks were fighting with Ukr,Russ and Pechenegs were a protection and it is why they were happily married at Rus,Ukr beauties.

PS: I hope that you know Pechenegs belongs to Turkic tribes.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on August 24, 2009, 09:53:04 PM
 Mirror, do you have any data from Russian sources?

From what I understand, if you consider only EUROPEAN Russia,("Great Russians") it is about 45 - 50% blonde, while Ukraine is about 40%. However if you consider ALL of Russia, the % is more like 33% - 35% (because of large number of people whose ethnics are non-Russian but who live in Russia.

From the posted map there is an area of Russia near the Baltic (St Petersburg) that is very blonde, but most of European Russia is like Ukraine. The far west Ukraine near the Black sea coast is darker, similar to Moldova (also darker). However Asian parts of Russia are much more dark than blonde, which lowers the overall total for Russia.

Blonde Map of Europe (http://news.ronatvan.com/2007/12/10/the-blonde-map-of-europe/)
But really, is there anything wrong with being dark? You make is sound like dark haired Russians/Ukrainians are something "less" than blondes?  Many Tatars have very dark hair, and are very attractive.

I would be interested to see if you have any Soviet data, because it is more difficult to search in English

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 24, 2009, 10:10:51 PM
I write it because it is you who sounded like to be dark haired is something worse.

I am right  because dark hair is a dominant gene and blond hair is in recessive so you can search anything anywhere but this genetic law of domination will be there anyway if mixed marriages happened many centuries ago.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 24, 2009, 10:17:38 PM
Your map illustrates that light hair is 20-49 % and in some part of Ukr-1-19% so who is the most? Yes,dark hair.Thank you.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: TomT on August 24, 2009, 11:19:45 PM
 :fighting0004:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Link on August 24, 2009, 11:32:59 PM
I’ve learned recently that the definition of white for some Russians is different than the western definition of whiteness.  A brunette person (dark haired) with the skin with as milk might be considered non white for some groups of Russian neo Nazis according to what I say in some videos (white green eyed brunettes being accused of being “black” and  then slaughtered ).  I even saw some attacks on one Italian (Mediterranean look) and other in an American brunette (white). It seems the color of hair and eyes (dark) and having non Slavic facial gestures plays a major role there instead of the actual colour of the skin.

My guess is (I could be wrong on this) that because there are not many truly dark skinned people in Russia in the sense we know in the west (blacks, Amerindians, Mestizos ,etc) then those groups of neo Nazis had to blame the “blackness” of a person in something else rather than the skin color (as some of the victims are indeed white skinned) and the found in the dark hair or eyes the perfect excuse.  So basically is a matter of nationalism instead of racism (as they cannot claim racial superiority when they are actually slaughtering other whites).

By the way I’ve found that some parts in Sweden people with dark hair and or eyes are far more attractive to the local population, as they are rare items among the sea of blondes. The same happens with blondes in a sea of brunettes (Peru for example), is  just nature at work, people feel attracted to the opposite.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: BCKev on August 25, 2009, 12:46:26 AM
:fighting0004:

Well put
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on August 25, 2009, 01:43:10 AM
I'm a sucker for dark haired beauties.

I will never date a blonde  :innocent: (of course, now my dating days are long gone!)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on August 25, 2009, 01:58:58 AM


Not all Russians dislike Ukrainians,

In 20 visits to different parts of Russia from St Peter to Moscow and way across to Perm Yekaterinburg up into the north Nizney Tagil and then down down south to Rostov,
 I  have never met a Russian person that has spoken badly about Ukranians, and even when asked their reply was:-

People are People and we choose to live in harmony as disdain get us nowhere.

But as always there are these people that harbor these feelings and the minority voice ends up being the one that everybody thinks is correct.

Just my two pennies.

Mark
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on August 25, 2009, 04:31:35 AM
Voyager,

How does your head feel from banging it up against that brick wall.  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on August 25, 2009, 05:01:23 AM
Mirror

Did your history lessons not teach you about the Byzantine era, or the Pontian ( Greek Speakers - Black sea Greeks ?)

There are MANY Russian speakers from the FSU in Cyprus and Greece who had the chance to leave Russia when the Soviet Union broke up. They were given Greek Passports.

Many folk from Odessa and the Krasnodar region claim Hellenic roots..If I'm not mistaken, weren't many victims of Beslan of Greek origin?



Re the Great Patriotic War / WWII.. when will you realise that many Ukrainians fought with the Nazis as a way to get rid of the Soviets..the Russians?  Ukraine was independent for a short period after the Revolution and then the Red Army came and "ended" it ..

Now you seem to confuse ethnic Russian folk who just happened to live in Ukraine, when the SU broke up with all Ukrainians !? :o

Please explain to be how ethnic Russian folk ( who still feel Russian ) are the same as "real" Ukrainians who wish to be free of Russian influence?

I've encountered this over-generalised opinion a few times and I always ask.. " How is a Russian speaker from Belgorad different from one in Kharkov ?  ..apart from the passport they hold ..













Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on August 25, 2009, 06:07:43 AM
?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on August 25, 2009, 06:52:52 AM
?

Mark,

Moby's posts are like Jazz music. I am sure they are full of genius but sometimes I don't understand a note!

B.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on August 25, 2009, 09:03:21 AM
1msmoby,

don't ask me any question because I am not going to answer in this topic.
This topic was created by Chris ( I think) so ask him.

I know mods here :they create special topic like that and then they blame me in everything bad. ;D

When people speak about origin of the nations there always there will be someone who will complain that others treated him badly or said something specially against him (or his nationality).

This discussion is very slippery so if somebody will be interested to know my private opinion wellcome to PM me and I will tell everything openly  what I know. Kill me! I know too much.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: alenika on August 25, 2009, 09:54:55 AM
By the way I’ve found that some parts in Sweden people with dark hair and or eyes are far more attractive to the local population, as they are rare items among the sea of blondes. The same happens with blondes in a sea of brunettes (Peru for example), is  just nature at work, people feel attracted to the opposite.
It is the same here. And as Georgia is mostly dark country then here even those with black hair but really white skin are called white. And those with white but dark skin are "blacks". While they are caucasians still, like southern italians. And here in Georia blondes are popular even when they are not real blondes, but dark blondes. And when dark haired girl from here went to Belarus where most people have light blonde hair she was considered very attractive while here none noticed her.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: alenika on August 25, 2009, 09:58:08 AM
Please explain to be how ethnic Russian folk ( who still feel Russian ) are the same as "real" Ukrainians who wish to be free of Russian influence?
It was fun for me to read too  ;D According this logic all Georgians and other ethnicities from Caucasus who happen to live in Russia are Russians, Ukrainians who live in Russia are Russians too  :-* And if Russian moves to for example UK they become British and stop being Russians :-)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on August 25, 2009, 10:50:32 AM
Alenkia

Same with me  ;D  . Now the leader of the opposition here is of Russian Descendent, yet lives in Canada, but also was in the USA for a long time teaching.

Hmmmmm, What is he. American, Canadian, or Russian.  ??? 

If he is Russian, then if elected, Canada just became part of Russia.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on August 25, 2009, 12:21:46 PM

?

Mark,

Moby's posts are like Jazz music. I am sure they are full of genius but sometimes I don't understand a note!

B.

 :o

sorry guys .. :-[

 Alenika "got it?" .. Mirror may be doesn't WANT to "get it"..

Sounds like an excuse for me to call Sparky114 and he can "translate" ;)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Irinka on August 25, 2009, 01:39:10 PM


When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?   


I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: WestCoast on August 25, 2009, 02:00:47 PM


When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?   


I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.

Irinka it's best to not pay any attention to Mirror on the topic of Ukrainians, for some reason she doesn't like them.

Welcome to the forum there's always someone who wants to know something about the Ukraine so I'm sure anything you can teach us will be valuable.  In return if you want to know anything about the west we'll do our best to answer your questions.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on August 25, 2009, 02:18:28 PM

Please explain to be how ethnic Russian folk ( who still feel Russian ) are the same as "real" Ukrainians who wish to be free of Russian influence?

It was fun for me to read too  ;D According this logic all Georgians and other ethnicities from Caucasus who happen to live in Russia are Russians, Ukrainians who live in Russia are Russians too  :-* And if Russian moves to for example UK they become British and stop being Russians :-)

Well I thought *you'd* "understood" :)...


I'm simply asking Mirror why she thinks native Russian speakers living in, what is now, Ukraine are different from Russian speakers separated by a newish border !? ...  Mirror appears to think ALL Ukraine passport holders FEEL Ukrainian - are different... They aren't, of course.

Many of them would be happy to be part of Russia ... example Crimea.. and Russia seems quite happy to keep that pot boiling...

So I think Mirror is "insulting" many ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and Irinka's reaction was a case in point..

I think you are what you feel and your passport isn't that relevant - especially in the case of the FSU states -unless it is a problem for travel ;( 




Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: nunya on August 25, 2009, 02:35:40 PM
When people speak about origin of the nations

The orgins of a nation mirror.  And what is the orgin of your great nation mirror?  You will not like the answer.




Many, and I mean many, Russian's are a little resentful that Ukraine is mother Russia.

Kiev is 500 years older than Moscow.  When Moscoviy was just a little trading outpost on the Moscow River, Kyiv was estimated to be the 5th largest civilization in the world. In fact had it not been for Ghangis Khans grandson destroying the Kiev Rus dynasty in December of 1240, Moscow today would still be nothing more than a mid-size Russian city.

The people of Kiev had something the people of Moscoviy did not have at that time, they had balls. They had the balls to tell the roaming Mongol Tatars nyet, when they came pounding on the Golden gates of the Kremlin fortress Kiev demanding some gold, some silver, some chickens, goats and oh yes, a few of it's women.  No large city up to that time had said no to the Mongol Tatars, but the people of Kiev did.

For 10 weeks and four days the biggest, baddest battering rams could not penetrate the Golden Gates of Kiev. Finally at the Lyndiski Gates, today the present site of Independence Square, the Mongols broke through.

During a bloody two day battle it is estimated that 50,000 men, women and children were killed. About 1000 people escaped with there life's. Of 20,000 structures inside the Kremlin Kiev, two were left standing. One of those, St. Sophia.  In two days a complete civilization was wiped off the planet earth.

In the years 1270-1280 fathers used to tell there children about the land of Rus, the Rus men.  In 1320-1340 grandfathers would tell there children stories about the Rus men and the land of Rus.  During the 1400's, people would pass down stories of the Rus people and the land of Rus.

Finally in about the year 1548-1549, during the time of the first Russian Czar, was the word Russia, Land of Rus, seen written for the first time.

 Rus men.    Land of Rus.   Russia.  

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on August 25, 2009, 02:46:55 PM

sorry guys .. :-[


I got your point Moby, it makes sense to me!




When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?  


I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.


Don't worry Irinka, almost everyone is learning either English or Russian (or Ukrainian!  ;D)

And don't worry about "angry feelings" in your post,  it's understandable.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Leo512 on September 02, 2009, 08:51:57 AM
I’ve learned recently that the definition of white for some Russians is different than the western definition of whiteness.  A brunette person (dark haired) with the skin with as milk might be considered non white for some groups of Russian neo Nazis according to what I say in some videos (white green eyed brunettes being accused of being “black” and  then slaughtered ).  I even saw some attacks on one Italian (Mediterranean look) and other in an American brunette (white). It seems the color of hair and eyes (dark) and having non Slavic facial gestures plays a major role there instead of the actual colour of the skin.

My guess is (I could be wrong on this) that because there are not many truly dark skinned people in Russia in the sense we know in the west (blacks, Amerindians, Mestizos ,etc) then those groups of neo Nazis had to blame the “blackness” of a person in something else rather than the skin color (as some of the victims are indeed white skinned) and the found in the dark hair or eyes the perfect excuse.  So basically is a matter of nationalism instead of racism (as they cannot claim racial superiority when they are actually slaughtering other whites).

By the way I’ve found that some parts in Sweden people with dark hair and or eyes are far more attractive to the local population, as they are rare items among the sea of blondes. The same happens with blondes in a sea of brunettes (Peru for example), is  just nature at work, people feel attracted to the opposite.

If skincolor defines another race for Americans, why couldn't  haircolor be an indicator for Russians? I do not agree with both classifications but they are both equally invalid stupid criteria!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 02, 2009, 01:17:35 PM
1msmoby,

don't ask me any question because I am not going to answer in this topic.
This topic was created by Chris ( I think) so ask him.

Yes, Mirror I understand it is a little disconcerting when a Mod makes a new thread and even entitles it to suit their bias... BUT.. you DID make a TOTALLY "silly" comment with no basis in FACT concerning folk who suddenly became "Ukrainians" overnight..folk who might well say that are more "Russian" than you ;)



This discussion is very slippery so if somebody will be interested to know my private opinion wellcome to PM me and I will tell everything openly  what I know. Kill me! I know too much.

Well, new thread , or not, YOU made a statement and need to BACK UP your contentions with FACTS... You are being asked questions because you made the statement in the open forum .

I am now thinking you CAN'T answer my question - because you KNOW the answer DESTROYS your contention..

Sorry, Mirror.. it is nothing personal - I just HATE it when folk make generalised comments - especially about nations that are created from diverse peoples - especially NEW nations - only one generation old.



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 03, 2009, 08:39:45 AM
1msmoby,

yes,I can't keep talking to you because I need to learn how to use English words "bullshit, stupid, silly,HATE,  f. off,etc" .

Wait, I will come back to you when I will learn and we will talk.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Leo512 on September 03, 2009, 08:43:35 AM
Of course Russians and a lil pissed off, cmon, Ukrainian women are,...., incredibly gorgeous, i know!! :loving:

I am not saying Russians cant be, but overall, Ukrainians,...woot!!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 03, 2009, 08:47:50 AM
1msmoby,

yes,I can't keep talking to you because I need to learn how to use English words "bullshit, stupid, silly,HATE,  f. off,etc" .

Wait, I will come back to you when I will learn and we will talk.

How convenient.. !
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 03, 2009, 09:46:42 PM
Of course Russians and a lil pissed off, cmon, Ukrainian women are,...., incredibly gorgeous, i know!! :loving:

I am not saying Russians cant be, but overall, Ukrainians,...woot!!
Is it why none of Ukrainians ever won any beauty contests?

The map is for Miss World, it hows countries that won at some point> Do you see Ukraine in color?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Miss_World_Pageant_Map.PNG/800px-Miss_World_Pageant_Map.PNG)


Quote
Russia has a total of 3 major international pageants winners: Miss World 1992, Miss Universe 2002 and Miss World 2008. Miss Russia 2007 Ksenia Sukhinova was declared Miss World 2008 at the grand finale in Johannesburg on 13th December, 2008.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 03, 2009, 11:11:38 PM
Considering the fact that most Russians and Ukrainians are of mixed bloods and that probably there are more Ukrainians living in Russia than in Ukraine and also that lots of Russians live in Ukraine I consider this a silly argument. As far as genes are concerned both groups are pretty much the same and you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 03, 2009, 11:23:44 PM
A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.

Eduard,
 Don't confuse them with facts. Their minds are made up already.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 03, 2009, 11:43:29 PM
Of course Russians and a lil pissed off, cmon, Ukrainian women are,...., incredibly gorgeous, i know!! :loving:

I am not saying Russians cant be, but overall, Ukrainians,...woot!!

When I see similar admirations I laugh.

In most cases men take girls in short skirts and with visible underwear like beautyes.  :chuckle:   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 04, 2009, 01:23:35 AM
you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

..and you said this argument was "silly"... I/ or someone else could claim the same for Kiev,  Odessa ( in the summer) ..this is a subjective OPINION ;)..


On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.


NONSENSE.. you have made this statement before.. the border with Russia is relatively new.. please tell us how  an ethnic "Russian" lady from Belgorad is "culturally" different from Kharkov ?  A Ukrainian who feels Ukrainian ethnically - is likely to feel VERY differently than a Ukrainian ethnic Russian - who may actively REJECT Ukrainian "culture"

Veta has an old school friend who married a Russian guy and they ended up in UA ( Kiev) for 19 years.. are you saying they / the kids would be culturally different, now ?

It's not like the borders are hard to cross ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15975620@N00/23686645/


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on September 04, 2009, 01:54:33 AM
Is it why none of Ukrainians ever won any beauty contests?

Ukraine has not been competing long enough in a beauty contest to win. The orange revolution took place in 2004, meaning they had so far 4 chances to win any miss world contest. Since Russia has been at it since 1951 (when it was invented) and won only 3 times. I think you can not say anything about ukrainian beauties so far. When the numbers are less skewed in 30-40 years , then I would say you can start to compare beauty with this contest.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 04, 2009, 02:14:20 AM

Ukraine has not been competing long enough in a beauty contest to win. The orange revolution took place in 2004, meaning they had so far 4 chances to win any miss world contest. Since Russia has been at it since 1951 (when it was invented) and won only 3 times. I think you can not say anything about ukrainian beauties so far. When the numbers are less skewed in 30-40 years , then I would say you can start to compare beauty with this contest.


??

Hi Markje, wasn't UA a nation before the Orange Revolution ?!!

I'm sure it had the right to enter contestants in Beauty pageants ?

Plenty of UA beauties on RU tv and making money in Russia as popstars ;)

Comparing the beauty of ethnic Russian women who are from the same genetic mix over the years and only became officially Ukrainian 20 yrs ago is "silly".. 


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 04, 2009, 02:18:02 AM
Is it why none of Ukrainians ever won any beauty contests?

Ukraine has not been competing long enough in a beauty contest to win. The orange revolution took place in 2004, meaning they had so far 4 chances to win any miss world contest. Since Russia has been at it since 1951 (when it was invented) and won only 3 times. I think you can not say anything about ukrainian beauties so far. When the numbers are less skewed in 30-40 years , then I would say you can start to compare beauty with this contest.



What does it have to do with Orange Revolution? Didn't Ukraine exist before 2004? Do you really believe 2004 is the year when Ukraine became an independent state? You don't know much about history of the the country that you visit so frequent this days.

Quote
On July 16, 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine. The declaration established the principles of the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation, its democracy, political and economic independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law on the Ukrainian territory over Soviet law.

The full quote that I posted before.

Quote
Miss Russia Pageant is a Russian beauty pageant for young women. The pageants have been running since the year 1993, however it did not take place in 1994 and 2000. Since 2007 Miss Russia finalists represent Russia in both Miss Universe and Miss World pageants. Russia has a total of 3 major international pageants winners: Miss World 1992, Miss Universe 2002 and Miss World 2008. Miss Russia 2007 Ksenia Sukhinova was declared Miss World 2008 at the grand finale in Johannesburg on 13th December, 2008.

Ukraine could have started from 1990 if they wanted to, may be they didn't have enough beautiful girls back then?




Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 04, 2009, 07:19:40 AM
you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

..and you said this argument was "silly"... I/ or someone else could claim the same for Kiev,  Odessa ( in the summer) ..this is a subjective OPINION ;)..


On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.


NONSENSE.. you have made this statement before.. the border with Russia is relatively new.. please tell us how  an ethnic "Russian" lady from Belgorad is "culturally" different from Kharkov ?  A Ukrainian who feels Ukrainian ethnically - is likely to feel VERY differently than a Ukrainian ethnic Russian - who may actively REJECT Ukrainian "culture"

Veta has an old school friend who married a Russian guy and they ended up in UA ( Kiev) for 19 years.. are you saying they / the kids would be culturally different, now ?

It's not like the borders are hard to cross ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15975620@N00/23686645/



moby, you are so thick-sculled...not a surprise to see you coming out with a statement like this!It takes a native to understand cultural differences because they are not as obvious to a westerner, particularly a westerner with a thick skull who "thinks" he knows it all! You make this constant white noise that I don't even bother to read most of the time, but coming out with "NONESENSE" addressing me, the man who's father is from Ukraine, mother is from Russia, who spent plenty of time in both places, has family in both places and truly understands the languages and both cultures is just not very bright.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 04, 2009, 08:05:06 AM
Wild Orchid

Marke may be right about that competition results Checking on Canada's history with Miss World, we only started in 2003 having a contestant. And it is separate from the Miss Universe competition which has been around the same length of time. Probably why I am not as familiar with Miss World as I am with Miss Universe. For us it is not even the same lady going to both. So it could be when someone thought to start it in the country, rather then when the country could do this.  :nod:

Yet checking the results this year for Miss Universe both the Russian and Ukrainian ladies seem to have the same rating . Which says to me neither is better then the other for looks.  ;D 

http://www.missuniverse.com/members/contestants/sortBy:rating (http://www.missuniverse.com/members/contestants/sortBy:rating)




Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 04, 2009, 09:29:27 AM
judging the whole nation of women according to who won the pagent doesn't make much sense to me. I've travelled the world quite a bit and I can honestly say that I have seen stunning looking women pretty much everywhere among any ethnic group. The only difference is IMO is in average looking women. And on average there are a lot more pretty women in Russia and Ukraine than for example in Austria. But any one who says that the women are prettier in Ukraine than in Russia probably hasn't ever been to Russia.
I've spent quite a bit of time in both Kiev and Moscow and IMO Moscow can not be beaten when it comes to the number of beautiful women. Interestingly enough a large percentage of them came from Ukraine  :biggrin: or were born to parents who came to Russia from Ukraine  ::)
You also might be surprised to learn that some of those hot girls in Ukraine might have a Russian last name...  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Link on September 04, 2009, 04:27:04 PM
This is a map of the countries who had won Miss Universe contest:

Still it doesn't make sense to me to jugde a whole nation based on beauty pageant contest, a lot of interest (political ones for example) are involved in order to determine the winner.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Miss_Universe_Map.PNG)


And the Miss International map:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Miss_International_Pageant_Map.PNG)


The Mexican girl who won the contest was from Monterrey, she received a lot of bad press here because she was arrested later by the police for driving completely drunk with her boyfriend in San Pedro (Greater Monterrey)........
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 04, 2009, 04:50:55 PM
None of the maps represent the full picture. Both Miss Universe and Miss World, have been around since 1952, and 1951. That is just short of sixty years, yet one has data for only 19 years and the other for only 15 years.  tiphat 

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: hemingway on September 04, 2009, 05:44:03 PM
1msmoby,

yes,I can't keep talking to you because I need to learn how to use English words "bullshit, stupid, silly,HATE,  f. off,etc" .

Wait, I will come back to you when I will learn and we will talk.
;D
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 04, 2009, 07:06:09 PM
None of the maps represent the full picture. Both Miss Universe and Miss World, have been around since 1952, and 1951. That is just short of sixty years, yet one has data for only 19 years and the other for only 15 years.  tiphat 



I think Link might have only been interested in going back to approximately the time Ukraine became independent. Just a guess.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: jb on September 04, 2009, 11:07:46 PM
you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.
On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.


NONSENSE.. you have made this statement before.. the border with Russia is relatively new.. please tell us how  an ethnic "Russian" lady from Belgorad is "culturally" different from Kharkov ?  A Ukrainian who feels Ukrainian ethnically - is likely to feel VERY differently than a Ukrainian ethnic Russian - who may actively REJECT Ukrainian "culture"

Veta has an old school friend who married a Russian guy and they ended up in UA ( Kiev) for 19 years.. are you saying they / the kids would be culturally different, now ?

It's not like the borders are hard to cross ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15975620@N00/23686645/

Probally for exactly the same reasons an astute Texans feels the tension; and is out of his elemit. or feeling "Out of sorts", on stage when he crosses the same state lines between LA, or OKLAHOMA.


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 05, 2009, 02:58:18 AM
moby, you are so thick-sculled...not a surprise to see you coming out with a statement like this!It takes a native to understand cultural differences because they are not as obvious to a westerner, particularly a westerner with a thick skull who "thinks" he knows it all!

Hello, Ed !

thanks for your "rational" response..

I don't see one objective counter to my point, either... I wonder WHY?

Lastly, this "thick skulled westener" has lived, and worked with Russian and Ukrainian speakers for the last nine years - has worked and travelled EXTENSIVELY in the FSU and the view I posted are also the views of my Wife and my best mate Alexey - a former officer in the Red and Russian Army ... Last time you expressed such views - if you remember - they were brought up over a meal with FSU friends.. UA / RU based ...they didn't agree with you EITHER...

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: TomT on September 05, 2009, 08:03:10 AM
Interested readers ought to research the Holodomor of 1933.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 10:42:37 AM
When I see a term "Holodomor" it means that it was written by somebody - proukrainian foreigner,who knows nothing about Russian hystory or who doesn't want to get a truth.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 05, 2009, 10:58:16 AM
When I see a term "Holodomor" it means that it was written by somebody - proukrainian foreigner,who knows nothing about Russian hystory or who doesn't want to get a truth.


Mirror

I would say it is one reason Ukrainians may not like Russians, and I am sure there are similar events, that Russians have for their feelings about Ukrainians.  Neither country would have a clean slate for different events, considering the different types of rulership in both countries, that have occurred over the last century.  :)   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 11:07:04 AM
Holodomor is not a reason.

Read a sentence in my previous post. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 11:14:31 AM
For people who doesn't know Russian hystory a term "Holodomor" makes feel sorry for Ukr and makes to hate Russians.
You can find everything in internet so read before to say something against Russians.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 05, 2009, 11:29:08 AM

Mirror

I would say this statement gives reason for Holodomor to cause friction between the two countires.  :)

The reasons of the famine are the subject of intense scholarly and political debate. Some historians claim the famine was purposely engineered by the Soviet authorities to attack Ukrainian nationalism, while others view it as an unintended consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during Soviet industrialization.


In another words, intentional ? or just an unfortunate natural event   ?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 11:40:28 AM
Holodomor is a Ukr term so who uses this term is Ukr or proukrainian. We,Russians,name  : " A hunger".
It is not a friction between the two countires like a reason why this term came on a political scene.

I don't want to sound like an expert but I take this argument differently from you-Westerns.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 05, 2009, 12:04:27 PM
Mirror

Considering the Ukrainian Government has passed a motion calling it genocide, yet the Russians claim another side to this, I would say some friction occurs over it. I do know it is a Ukrainian word, not a a Russian one from what I read.  I like the sound of the hunger better, it represent the event.   :nod:

But considering experts can not agree on the cause, I doubt if us Westerners have any clue as to what was the cause. Other then the fact a lot of people died, which can be acknowledge as a tragedy, in any ones mind, including Russians.   :)



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 05, 2009, 12:25:45 PM
Mirror is jealous of Ukrainian women. It's as simple as that. She
feels superior to them for reasons that are apparent only to her.
Men tend to go to Ukraine because of easier visa restrictions and
that really grinds her gears. So....

She tells us that Ukrainian women are all tramps blah, blah, blah.
They all have wombs filled with radiation yada, yada yada. They
are all traitors and so on and so forth.

I kinda wonder how this Ukrainian defamation campaign program
is working. I doubt that she has attracted many followers that now
say "Yeah I need to find a warm, pleasant, sweet and loving woman
just like angry offensive old Milaya Mirror.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 05, 2009, 03:10:30 PM
Bill...i thought you a kind guy))))....mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)...may be the way how she put it you foreigners cant except)))) but when we think deep about topic -she just says all kind of stereotypes which exists in Russia among russian......are you all dont see obvious things and ready to blame for such stereotypes one particular person?))) :'(

holodomor is sensitive topic which can create a lot missunderstanding...same as great patriotic war II, soviet army in soviet time in baltics,politic of Russia ......etc etc etc....before start to argue, really all -take mirror's advice and study history :nod: that's will help :)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 05, 2009, 03:37:25 PM
mirror represent here opinion which russian people have

No. She represents here the opinion that *some* Russian people have. Quite different.

For others, Wiki says about Holodomor this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

This was almost 80 years ago, and during Soviet times. To hold a grudge because of it today is akin to a European holding a grudge against Germany today for the actions of the Nazis. For a Russian to hold a grudge against Ukraine because of it today, seems odd as it was Ukrainians and Moldovans that suffered?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 05, 2009, 03:40:50 PM
...mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)..

And you are Russian, yet very polite to Ukrainian girls. Why is that?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 05, 2009, 04:08:46 PM
mirror represent here opinion which russian people have

No. She represents here the opinion that *some* Russian people have. Quite different.

 
 

what?)))))how do you know)))) who russian from russia -you or  me ?))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) :popcorn:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 05, 2009, 04:11:16 PM
...mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)..

And you are Russian, yet very polite to Ukrainian girls. Why is that?

well....if you may be dont well know russian...i remain you))))..we are very friendly to all nations)) very very)))....until we notice that they are in fact not friends for us)) we always pay back same what we got :biggrin:that's it)) no more no less )) 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 05, 2009, 06:14:26 PM
As far as Holodomor, I'm not sure why Ukraine would blame Russian people. Soviet government, communist elite are the ones to blame IMHO. And this elite included all former USSR ethnic groups or as they called it during Soviet time "nationalities". Ukrainians were just as involved in the Soviet movement as Russians and if we are going to play this "ethnic blame game" then why not blame Georgians??? Holodomor happened during the time Stalin (I mean Joseph, not Dan) was in power and Stalin was responsible for millions of deaths of ethnic Russians, Ukrainians alone with all other ethnic groups who happened to be subjects of the USSR. Once this paranoid, narcissistic maniac - Stalin ceased power Russian people had just as little say (or no say would be more accurate) as Ukrainians or any other nationality of the USSR, so the only logical thing would be to blame him and the political regime that put him there and not the ordinary people who had absolutely no power.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 06:30:45 PM

But considering experts can not agree on the cause, I doubt if us Westerners have any clue as to what was the cause. Other then the fact a lot of people died, which can be acknowledge as a tragedy, in any ones mind, including Russians.   :)


In Russia people died much more than in Ukr so why should we take a Holodomor like a genocide?

In Volga area people were eating each other from a hunger in a period 1919-1924,it was a Bashkirian territory also. I know  about "a hunger" from my grandparents.
2tallball,yes,you are right,pity I am not Ukr to blame Russians  for this "a hunger" and to ask United Nations to recognise me as a victim of genocidy.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 06:37:18 PM
Of course I am jealous of Ukr women they being prost., having radiation,
being traitors, even having Holodomor (2Tallball,you forgot to remind it ) .
Bravo,2tallball,you got to the core me. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 05, 2009, 06:51:49 PM
Manny ,

I see you don't know anything about Russian hystory also.You have an opportunity to ask your wife's grandparents about this time of "Prodrasverstka" and "Collectivisation".Why not to use this opportunity? If they were living in an area around Volga they should know more about it.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 05, 2009, 07:46:27 PM
Wild Orchid

Marke may be right about that competition results Checking on Canada's history with Miss World, we only started in 2003 having a contestant.

That is how you are checking? From the time when Canada started participating? I don't follow Canada involvement in beauty contests, and that is exactly what i was talking about - ANY beauty contests, where the most beautiful women of Ukraine are destined to win but for some "strange" reason not winning. 

Quote
The Miss World pageant is the oldest surviving major international beauty pageant. It was created in the United Kingdom by Eric Morley in 1951. Since his death in 2000, Morley's wife, Julia Morley, co-chairs the pageant.

Miss Universe contest started in 1952. Canada won it twice in 1982 and 2005. The winner of 2005 is Natalie Glebova - Russian Canadian born in Tuapse Russia , so her beauty is Russian any way.

Miss Earth 2007 is Canadian Jessica Trisko, her father is father is of Ukrainian-Russian heritage, and her mother is Filipino.

Miss Ukraine 2001 is quite famous, she was a semi-finalist  in Miss Universe, didn't win anything except for the heart of aging millionaire.  He was 72 and she was 26 when they got married, but kind of  predictable, don't you think?  :innocent:
(http://thisisdiversity.com/img/forall/Image/Oleksandra%20Nikolayenko4.jpg)


Back to when it all started for Ukraine

Quote
Miss Ukraine is a national beauty contest in Ukraine and was first held in 1991 in the "Palace of Ukraine".

Trying for 18 years now, and no winners so far.. It doesn't say Ukrainians aren't beautiful, it just says that they don't have anything to prove that they are  :chuckle:




The reasons of the famine are the subject of intense scholarly and political debate. Some historians claim the famine was purposely engineered by the Soviet authorities to attack Ukrainian nationalism, while others view it as an unintended consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during Soviet industrialization.


Let's read...

Quote
About 40 million people were affected by the food shortages including areas near Moscow where mortality rates increased by 50%. The center of the famine, however, was Ukraine and surrounding regions, including the Don, the Kuban, the Northern Caucasus and Kazakhstan where the toll was one million dead.

How Don and Kuban, Caucasus and Kazakhstan all became parts of Ukraine but not big parts of Russia, Kazakhstan obliviously and other independent regions I don't know. The famine (not proUkrainiane holodomor) happened in Russia as well, it was the result of Soviet government at that time, and I'm tired of stressing out that most of that Government wasn't Russian to start with but it is easier to blame Russia for everything that happened in the past.

this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union explains that there was no area in Soviet Union not affected by those tactics. All nations suffered, not only Ukrainians, but this point of view doesn't suit Ukrainians what so ever.

Lets talk instead about who rebuilt Ukraine after WWII and changed her from agricultural country of peasants into industrial country. Did Russian people get any credit for that? Silly question, I know  ::)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 05, 2009, 08:20:43 PM
Mirror is jealous of Ukrainian women. It's as simple as that. She
feels superior to them for reasons that are apparent only to her.
Men tend to go to Ukraine because of easier visa restrictions and
that really grinds her gears. So....


Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous? Because you can go to Ukraine without visa and for that reason she missed out on men like you? I don't think it is her loss. Seriously, if you made your decision only on visa regulations, it says a lot about you.

Personally I have more respect for men who were not stopped by some remote places like Barnaul for example, or Vladivostok, if that is where woman happened to live. If you choose to go the road that thousands before you walked, I don't know who is really missing out . All that situation with attracting foreigners to visit Ukraine without visa reminds me after Christmas sale

Quote
And this elite included all former USSR ethnic groups or as they called it during Soviet time "nationalities". Ukrainians were just as involved in the Soviet movement as Russians

I agree with Ed... It wasn't like Red army from Siberia was send to rob Ukrainians of their harvest, it was done by their local Ukrainian communists. And you know who was the most active in all this raskulachivanie - the laziest and most unsuccessful people, who didn't have anything of their own but wanted to have somebody else's.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 05, 2009, 08:39:46 PM
Bill...i thought you a kind guy))))

I think you are a sweet to say so

mirror represent here opinion which russian people have 8)...may be the way how she put it you foreigners cant except)))) but when we think deep about topic -she just says all kind of stereotypes which exists in Russia among russian......are you all dont see obvious things and ready to blame for such stereotypes one particular person?))) :'(

anjutka, you don't go out of your way to insult Ukrainian Women. Mirror does,


holodomor is sensitive topic which can create a lot missunderstanding...same as great patriotic war II, soviet army in soviet time in baltics,politic of Russia ......etc etc etc....before start to argue, really all -take mirror's advice and study history :nod: that's will help :)

I don't blame Russians (especially Russians who were not born yet) for things the Soviet Government
did. If you check you will see I didn't say anything about Holodomor.

Telling me I can't comment about Mirrors rudeness because I don't know Russian history, is like
saying I can't comment about how to prepare tasty food dish because I am not a farmer. I can't
grow tomatoes to save my life (I wish I could) but I can prepare at least a couple of dozen tasty
dishes with them.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Link on September 05, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
Mirror is jealous of Ukrainian women. It's as simple as that. She
feels superior to them for reasons that are apparent only to her.
Men tend to go to Ukraine because of easier visa restrictions and
that really grinds her gears. So....


Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous? Because you can go to Ukraine without visa and for that reason she missed out on men like you? I don't think it is her loss. Seriously, if you made your decision only on visa regulations, it says a lot about you.

Personally I have more respect for men who were not stopped by some remote places like Barnaul for example, or Vladivostok, if that is where woman happened to live. If you choose to go the road that thousands before you walked, I don't know who is really missing out . All that situation with attracting foreigners to visit Ukraine without visa reminds me after Christmas sale

Quote
And this elite included all former USSR ethnic groups or as they called it during Soviet time "nationalities". Ukrainians were just as involved in the Soviet movement as Russians


I might visit Barnaul one of these days ...............
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 05, 2009, 08:59:01 PM


anjutka, you don't go out of your way to insult Ukrainian Women. Mirror does,



Can you please quote alleged Mirror's insults in this thread? Or should we just take your word for that?

Where was she talking about UW? She was talking about men and their reaction to certain Ukrainian word, that is all that I've seen
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 05, 2009, 09:03:26 PM

Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?

Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.

Because you can go to Ukraine without visa and for that reason she missed out on men like you? I don't think it is her loss. Seriously, if you made your decision only on visa regulations, it says a lot about you.


WO, Most men simply write letters and never get on a plane, by stating this does it mean that
I do this?

I said that "Men tend to go to Ukraine because of easier visa restrictions" I didn't say that
I did this or that I recommend this. There are a bunch of "Where should I go?" threads. I have
recommended finding a girl then going to wherever she is. If she is in Odessa go to Odessa if
she is in Siberia then go to Siberia (and bring a hat).

Udachi


Bill
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 05, 2009, 09:06:32 PM


anjutka, you don't go out of your way to insult Ukrainian Women. Mirror does,



Can you please quote alleged Mirror's insults in this thread?

Like these?

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War)

(if to be honest I think this stereotype about Ukr is right  :nod: but it is just my private opinion) .


The fact that UW are prostitutes is very bright known opinion. :evilgrin0002:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 05, 2009, 09:14:13 PM


anjutka, you don't go out of your way to insult Ukrainian Women. Mirror does,



Can you please quote alleged Mirror's insults in this thread? Or should we just take your word for that?

Where was she talking about UW? She was talking about men and their reaction to certain Ukrainian word, that is all that I've seen

WO is secretly helping me get better at doing quotes  ;D
I might screw it up (making the quotes)

You could take my word on if you wish or you can see this



When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War)
some men here were very aggresive towards me.


I wasn't the only one who thought it was offensive



I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 05, 2009, 09:27:20 PM


Like these?

When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War)


I've read her original post.

Do we chop as we please now? That question goes to you, Bill, as well

Quote
When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatars now?

And I think she has a point as far as debate on Muslims is concerned.


I wouldn't call Ukrainian traitors, they were almost always against Russians and it ended up with Banderovcy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army.

My mother in law claims that she was forcibly evacuated by Germans in 1944. In that year Germans were loosing a battle and I don't think they would be concerned with evacuation of some secondary race. I think they (Ukrainians/Pols) used Germans to run away from advancing Russian army, and they had a reason to run. Many Ukrainians were accused of war crimes, mind you not by Russians. Some Ukrainians were involved in extermination of Jews on Ukrainian territory. Many of them escaped in all corners of the world - Argentina, Australia, USA etc.. Can you blame Russians that we don't have particularly warm feelings towards to our "brothers" that fought in that war against us?

I don't know why we always talk about this. It is always us RW against yous -  partners of UW. I don't think you men have enough knowledge to argue with us. In any case it is very sensitive matter for us. What is it for you - go figure  ::)
 I was a bit shocked, when during recent commemoration of the anniversary of the beginning of WWII Pols accused Russia not Germany that was present there as well of all wrong doings that happened in 1939-1940. What do they want Russia to do now? Compensate them? Who will compensate us for that war? We lost more lives/resources/everything  than anybody else.


You have your own stereotypes against Muslims, Mirror has against Ukrainians. How are you different to her?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 05, 2009, 10:28:33 PM

I've read her original post.

Do we chop as we please now?

I didn't quote the whole post, in the context it made no difference.  She stated that she believes all Ukrainians are traitors.

Quote
When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatars now?

And I think she has a point as far as debate on Muslims is concerned.

WO, I agree with you there, some of the comments about muslims just make me cringe.

I wouldn't call Ukrainian traitors, they were almost always against Russians and it ended up with Banderovcy  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army.

I don't know why we always talk about this. It is always us RW against yous -  partners of UW. I don't think you men have enough knowledge to argue with us.

You are not exactly demonstrating your knowledge with that totally misleading statement.

Since you have cited Wiki, lets see what they have to say:

Quote
The number of Anti-Soviet UPA fighters varied. A German Abwehr report from November 1943 estimated that the UPA had 20,000 soldiers; other estimates at that time placed the number at 40,000. By the summer of 1944, estimates of UPA membership varied from 25-30 thousand fighters up to 100,000 or even 200,000 soldiers

 
Quote
In total, the number of ethnic Ukrainians that fought in the ranks of the Soviet Army is estimated from 4.5 million to 7 million. The pro-Soviet partisan guerilla resistance in Ukraine is estimated to number at 47,800 from the start of occupation to 500,000 at its peak in 1944; with about 50 percent of them being ethnic Ukrainians.

Initially, the Germans were even received as liberators by some western Ukrainians, who had only joined the Soviet Union in 1939. However, brutal German rule in the occupied territories eventually turned its supporters against the occupation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

So the facts {as stated by Wiki} are that for every 1 anti-Soviet partisan, there were between 25 - 200 times as many ethnic Ukrainians fighting in the Soviet Red Army. Many of them were awarded medals. Millions were wounded or died.

So Mirror's statement that she believes "All Ukrainians are traitors" just looks to be at best woefully misinformed, or at worst asinine.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 01:33:39 AM

Lets talk instead about who rebuilt Ukraine after WWII and changed her from agricultural country of peasants into industrial country. Did Russian people get any credit for that? Silly question, I know  ::)

YES.. it IS a silly question...given the choice most ethnic Ukrainians didn't WANT the Red Army marching back into Kiev (1920 and 1943) to "save" them from independence !

I often hear Russians express surprise at the hatred still felt towards them by most former European satellites - "we saved Europe from Fascism.." is the standard response - but you forgot to go HOME, afterwards!, I say ;)

Most Ukrainains didn't WANT Stalin's failed collective farming methods that resulted in TWO forced famines..one in 1921 and another in 1932..so not JUST Stalin to blame... and certainly NOT only local Ukrainian Communists...!!! WHO inflicted Communism on the Ukrainians?

The country was already screwed up BEFORE the "Great Patriotic War"..Many Ukrainians fought with the Nazis to be rid of Communism...THAT had nothing to do with being anti Russian..

Why does ANY of this "distrust" still apply when many of the acts of communism have been condemned - by most Russians ? ....Because the "games" STILL continue...because Russia has an agenda to destabilise modern Ukraine. It doesn't WANT UA to join NATO or the EU.

WHY did Putin appear with Yankovich on the hustings in the "elections" that brought about the Orange Revolution?! .. It was an example of the extreme "interference" in another nation's affairs..

Let's be honest about it.. Russia would like a sizeable chunks of UA as part of Russia..


I don't know why we always talk about this. It is always us RW against yous -  partners of UW.

No, WO.. my Wife is from Siberia... she has had the opportunity to meet elderly Poles - who fought to remove Germans and were then shelled / shot at by the Red Army.. and Ukrainian folk ( both ethnic Russian and Ukrainians) who feel Ukraine should be independent of Russian influence.



I don't think you men have enough knowledge to argue with us.


They WHY do you say this?..

I was a bit shocked, when during recent commemoration of the anniversary of the beginning of WWII Pols accused Russia not Germany that was present there as well of all wrong doings that happened in 1939-1940.

..and were you "shocked" when Mr Putin ( btw do you remember EVER seeing a Russian PM appearing so much on TV and having such a pivotal role in Russian affairs !?)  told Poles that the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact was immoral ?

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/international/artykul114967_putin_condemns_molotov_ribbentrop_pact.html

Lest you forget, the allies went to war to SAVE Poland from invasion and "we" LOST.. the Soviet Union - Communism - replaced Fascism.... Lvov and a sizeable part of Eastern Poland ended up under Soviet control under this pact and Stalin murdered 20,000 Polish Officers and large numbers of civilians and "tried" to blame the Germans !!

Germany has apologised MANY times for it's role and it would help relations with former Soviet satellites if Russia could have done the same..  Too many Russians ( you ?) STILL think the former Soviet European satellites should be "grateful" for being occupied and oppressed from 1945 to 1989/90 ?!!!

If you were Ukrainian Polish, Hungarian, Latvian, bla, bla, would YOU have been grateful to have the Russian language *imposed*?

Come on, WO. It's time this "silliness" re simplistic over-generalisations and misconceptions based on historical "fibs" - during the times of oppressive regimes  - stopped.

The line as to what is a Ukrainian is very blurred, anyway...
















Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 02:17:58 AM
Ukrs (like a nationality) have dark hair and eyes more light than dark...but you can see too many Ukr with dark eyes  because they have dark color in their genes from Turks. 8)

That is a ridiculous assertion.  Most of the "dark hair/dark eyes" comes from the millions of Germans who settled in Ukraine during Catherine II's reign, and thereafter.  Did you ever see Patriarch Alexei?  Those dark eyes came from German, not Turkic blood.  Moreover, Turks did not settle in Ukraine.  Ukrainians (and to a lesser extent, Russians) were captured and sold into slavery in Turkey, but they stayed there.  Up to 5,000 Cossacks from the Zaporizhian Sich did live under the rule of Turkish rule, but in an autonomous region.  Don Cossacks also lived under Ottoman rulers after a split with Peter the Great.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 02:31:54 AM
I wouldn't call Ukrainian traitors, they were almost always against Russians and it ended up with Banderovcy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army.

My mother in law claims that she was forcibly evacuated by Germans in 1944. In that year Germans were loosing a battle and I don't think they would be concerned with evacuation of some secondary race. I think they (Ukrainians/Pols) used Germans to run away from advancing Russian army, and they had a reason to run. Many Ukrainians were accused of war crimes, mind you not by Russians. Some Ukrainians were involved in extermination of Jews on Ukrainian territory. Many of them escaped in all corners of the world - Argentina, Australia, USA etc.. Can you blame Russians that we don't have particularly warm feelings towards to our "brothers" that fought in that war against us?

I don't know why we always talk about this. It is always us RW against yous -  partners of UW. I don't think you men have enough knowledge to argue with us. In any case it is very sensitive matter for us. What is it for you - go figure  ::)
 I was a bit shocked, when during recent commemoration of the anniversary of the beginning of WWII Pols accused Russia not Germany that was present there as well of all wrong doings that happened in 1939-1940. What do they want Russia to do now? Compensate them? Who will compensate us for that war? We lost more lives/resources/everything  than anybody else.

You have your own stereotypes against Muslims, Mirror has against Ukrainians. How are you different to her?

UPA was not fighting Russians.  It was fighting the Soviets.   Considering the brutality inflicted on Western Ukrainians after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty, this is not surprising.

UPA has been portrayed in the Russian press as Nazi collaborators.  It is true, Bandera took money from the Germans, and provided them information, but that ended by late 1941/early 1942 (can't recall off the top of my head).  Further, this "Nazi" ended up in a Nazi concentration camp.  Two of his brothers died in a concentration camp.

UPA was comprised almost exclusively of Western Ukrainians and Jews.  It did carry out atrocities, largely against Poles, and it fought Germans as well as the Soviets.

You and mirror have ignored the fact that millions of Ukrainians fought in the Red Army.  Ukrainians were such successful "Nazi collaborators", that 7 million of them died during WWII and another 3 to 4 million were taken as forced labourers to Germany.  Two million Red Army soldiers, mostly Ukrainians who were captured in the earliest days of Operation Barbarossa, were starved to death within spitting distance of their homes, or were the earliest victims at Auschwitz.  You are spitting on the graves of all these Ukrainian victims.

The Galician SS Division was funded by Germany.  However, this was not due to any loyalty to the German cause.  Some of those young men were forced to join, taken against their will by the Germans to fight (I know a couple of them, who were 14 and walking on village roads when they were picked up and taken to Germany).  Others joined willingly, with the sole purpose of defeating the Soviets.  The Galician SS Division was investigated thoroughly by Canada's Deschenes Commission, which investigated war crimes committed in the USSR.  It was determined the Galician SS Division never committed any war crimes.  The Deschenes Commission also investigated war crimes committed across the USSR.  It was also determined, and has, since the collapse of the USSR, been confirmed, that Ukrainains had no more colloboration with the Germans than any other occupied country (less than 0.2% of the population).  Many of those collobators did not escape to the West, but remained in the USSR.  Some, who were auxilliary police, were imprisoned for a few years after the war by the Soviets, and then became Soviet police officers.  Guards in SS camps who were Red Army POW's became guards at the gulags because Stalin stated they were "already trained".



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 02:40:15 AM
Most Ukrainains didn't WANT Stalin's failed collective farming methods that resulted in TWO forced famines..one in 1921 and another in 1932..so not JUST Stalin to blame... and certainly NOT only local Ukrainian Communists...!!! WHO inflicted Communism on the Ukrainians?

The country was already screwed up BEFORE the "Great Patriotic War"..Many Ukrainians fought with the Nazis to be rid of Communism...THAT had nothing to do with being anti Russian..

The famine in 1921 was not a forced famine.  It was based on a number of factors, including a drought, lack of railways the after effects of WWI, etc.  

Stalin was not the architect of collectivization.  That honour goes to Trotsky.  But, the "famine" that followed was indeed communist imposed.  Local communists, half of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, supported collectivization, and were predominantly the ones who physically carried it out.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 02:46:22 AM
But considering experts can not agree on the cause, I doubt if us Westerners have any clue as to what was the cause. Other then the fact a lot of people died, which can be acknowledge as a tragedy, in any ones mind, including Russians.   :)

Any honest historian who has studied the Holodomor has no doubt about the cause.  I knew victims who witnessed all the food from their homes being carted away.  One said the head of the kolkhoz used to come in everyday and say, almost to himself "Why aren't you dead yet?"  I knew people who ate tree bark and leaves.   Anything  you read which attributed the cause of the Holodomor to anything other than man made causes is either a bold faced lie or written by a Bolshevik apologist.

What has been disputed is the number of dead.  The range is from 4 to 10 million.  I think it is likely a little over 4 million, based on archival census data now available to Western historians.

What is overlooked often in the politics of this is that similar famines were orchestrated in Russia and other republics.  Ukraine's famine is more prominent because Ukraine had more peasants, and hence, had more victims.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 02:48:37 AM
holodomor is sensitive topic which can create a lot missunderstanding...same as great patriotic war II, soviet army in soviet time in baltics,politic of Russia ......etc etc etc....before start to argue, really all -take mirror's advice and study history :nod: that's will help :)

It is only a sensitive topic among Bolshevik apologists.  If Mirror is advising anyone to read history, she should follow that example herself. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 03:00:07 AM
The center of the famine, however, was Ukraine and surrounding regions, including the Don, the Kuban, the Northern Caucasus and Kazakhstan where the toll was one million dead.

How Don and Kuban, Caucasus and Kazakhstan all became parts of Ukraine but not big parts of Russia, Kazakhstan obliviously and other independent regions I don't know. The famine (not proUkrainiane holodomor) happened in Russia as well, it was the result of Soviet government at that time, and I'm tired of stressing out that most of that Government wasn't Russian to start with but it is easier to blame Russia for everything that happened in the past.

this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union explains that there was no area in Soviet Union not affected by those tactics. All nations suffered, not only Ukrainians, but this point of view doesn't suit Ukrainians what so ever.

Lets talk instead about who rebuilt Ukraine after WWII and changed her from agricultural country of peasants into industrial country. Did Russian people get any credit for that? Silly question, I know  ::)

First, Ukraine was disproportionately hit during the famine.  Second, the areas of Kuban and to a lesser extent, the Don, which were affected by collectivization had significant Ukrainian populations.  Third, Ukraine had a significant industrial base during the Tsarist period.  

No part of the Tsarist Empire was as heavily industrialized as Western Europe, but to claim Ukraine was changed into an "industrial country" ignores historical reality.  Further, Russians did not make this change.  It was made by Soviets, and it was done earlier than WWII.  The most significant industrial advances occurred in the interwar period.  Of course, this was done through famine, forcing peasants to cities, making them work under fear of gulags, etc.  It was a swift way to industrialize, but not efficient, either economically, or through the use of human capital.  

Finally, I will point to the fact that the "industrialization" of Ukraine and, indeed, the USSR, was a farce.  The only sectors of the Soviet economy that operated efficiently were the KGB and related party machinery, and the military.  The Soviet economy, by KGB analysis, was in economic decline since about 1960.  So what kind of "industrialization" are you lauding here, exactly?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 03:36:26 AM

Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?

Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.



Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.

You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.

Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 03:43:08 AM

I didn't quote the whole post, in the context it made no difference.  She stated that she believes all Ukrainians are traitors.



Yes, I said my opinion.Why do you blame me for having my own opinion different from yours? Why should my opinion be same like yours and 2tallball? Just because you have Ukr wife and 2tallball has Ukr girlfriend? Sorry,for me it is not a reason to change my opinion.  

My knowledge about Ukr makes my life easier by avoiding traitors in a reality.  If you want to take a risk why not? Did I say you DON"T?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 03:49:42 AM
Your knowledge about Ukraine and Ukrainians is limited and ill informed.

Let me guess.  You were a good komsomol member from a "decent sovok family".  Today, you are a good "Russian nationalist". 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 03:55:08 AM

You and mirror have ignored the fact that millions of Ukrainians fought in the Red Army.  


It is not we ignore. Your government with Yushenko in a head declares all your famous traitors like national heroes.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 03:57:26 AM
 Local communists, half of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, supported collectivization, and were predominantly the ones who physically carried it out.


It is why now you blame all Russians for your poor life.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:00:03 AM
Your knowledge about Ukraine and Ukrainians is limited and ill informed.

Let me guess.  You were a good komsomol member from a "decent sovok family".  Today, you are a good "Russian nationalist".  

When I was visiting my cousin in the UK I was surprised to see how pupils were collecting food,clothers,money for poor Ukr folk. I just wonder why Ukrs don't want to work to make own money? Why they sit and blame Rusians for their poverty?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:00:59 AM
People fighting for independence from the horrors of communism cannot be considered traitors.  I would not consider General Vlaslov's army traitors either.

Who are the real traitors?  Those who supported the Bolsheviks, the most brutal, backward regime of the twentieth century.  Even the Nazis took lessons from them.  I cannot consider anyone who opposed them a traitor.

Incidentally, Yushchenko is not "my president".  Don't make assumptions about who I am. IMHO,  Yushchenko is yet another mediocre Soviet bureaucrat, raised and groomed by the communist party, with no discernable talent beyond his own ambition.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:02:46 AM
Your knowledge about Ukraine and Ukrainians is limited and ill informed.

Let me guess.  You were a good komsomol member from a "decent sovok family".  Today, you are a good "Russian nationalist".  

When I was visiting my cousin in the UK I was surprised to see how pupils were collecting food,clothers,money for poor Ukr folk. I just wonder why Ukrs don't want to work to make own money?

Well, that answered the question.  

As a former sovok, you hardly worked either, so you are in no position to be casting aspersions or judgment on others.

Why did your cousin leave great Mother Russia, with all its opportunities?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:08:49 AM

Who are the real traitors?  Those who supported the Bolsheviks, the most brutal, backward regime of the twentieth century.  Even the Nazis took lessons from them.  I cannot consider anyone who opposed them a traitor.


Traitors -who betrays neighbours.

If you try to talk about collectivisation and Prodrasverstka then you should know that in a time of a hunger Soviet government tried to share all bread between all people .Too many people were living in towns not only in agrycultural villages so of course they should get a small piece of bread from kolhozniki.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:10:12 AM
Why did your cousin leave great Mother Russia, with all its opportunities?

It is non of your business...it was not an internet dating like you want to say.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:11:44 AM

Who are the real traitors?  Those who supported the Bolsheviks, the most brutal, backward regime of the twentieth century.  Even the Nazis took lessons from them.  I cannot consider anyone who opposed them a traitor.


Traitors -who betrays neighbours.

If you try to talk about collectivisation and Prodrasverstka then you should know that in a time of a hunger Soviet government tried to share all bread between all people .Too many people were living in towns not only in agrycultural villages so of course they should get a small piece of bread from kolhozniki.

There was no hunger in 1932/1933.  Every shred of evidence, including Soviet archives and the accounts of those who survived, proves this was an orchestrated famine.
No bread was shared.  People were intentionally starved to death.



It is non of your business...it was not an internet dating like you want to say.

Yet again an erroneous assumpton on your part.  Though I have never done it personally, I don't think internet dating is a crime.  I merely pointed out that, notwithstanding all your nationalist posts, even your own family has fled Russia.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:17:58 AM
There was no hunger in 1931/1932.  Every shred of evidence, including Soviet archives and the accounts of those who survived, proves this was an orchestrated famine.
No bread was shared.  People were intentionally starved to death.

It is how you want to show a history. I am glad for you that all Westerns collect the humanitarian help  because you were "a victim" those time.  

Can I send you 1 fish presevation,pls?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:24:48 AM
Everything what you write is known already from Ukr nationalists ,nothing new really.
I can say more that Westerns swallow this false already like the truth.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:26:21 AM
There was no hunger in 1931/1932.  Every shred of evidence, including Soviet archives and the accounts of those who survived, proves this was an orchestrated famine.
No bread was shared.  People were intentionally starved to death.

It is how you want to show a history. I am glad for you that all Westerns collect the humanitarian help  because you were "a victim" those time.  

Can I send you 1 fish presevation,pls?

It is not how history is "shown".  Stalin himself admitted to Churchill that millions died because of forced collectivization.  Soviet archives are very clear on this.  The fact you ignore historical reality is irrelevant.

Your ignorance of history is appalling but then, as a limited sovok, you are not really capable of analytic thought.  So, go back and read the latest revisionist history from Moscow about what a great leader Stalin was.  Go ahead, ignore how Stalin allowed Beria to pick up women, and even girls as young as 10, off the streets of Moscow to be raped, how he had 2 million Russians put to death because of his paranoia, how he ignored Sorge's warnings and was completely surprised by Operation Barbarossa, how he sat stupified in the Kremlin, while advisors worked around him during WWII and developed a nationalist strategy to fight the war, etc.  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 06, 2009, 04:28:50 AM
Halo...looks like you are in the wrong forum  :biggrin: tiphat
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:31:45 AM
Everything what you write is known already from Ukr nationalists ,nothing new really.
I can say more that Westerns swallow this false already like the truth.

The "Ukrainian nationalist" who first studied the Ukrainian famine was Robert Conquest.  He is English, a distinguished professor of history at Stanford and later a fellow at the Hoover Institute.   The second most prominent scholar of the Ukrainian famine is the late James Mace.  He is an American Cherokee, who worked with Dr. Conquest, then studied the famine while working at Harvard.  He was opposed in his attempts to create a Kyiv based institute for study of the famine by Ukrainians.

Yup, certainly, these "Ukrainian nationalists" fabricated everything.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:33:38 AM
Halo...looks like you are in the wrong forum  :biggrin: tiphat

?  

I am creating additional friction, per the header in this thread, am I not? :laugh:

On a serious note, I do not distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians.  I do distinguish between those who actively supported oppression and those who were its victims.

The most ardent nationalists, be they Russian or Ukrainian, in my experience, were snitches, who were always trying to get ahead on the backs of the innocent, before the collapse of the FSU.  They don't like to be reminded of this today.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:35:48 AM

An interent resources are unlimited so everybody can find their whatever he/she wants.
Do you identify Stalin and Russians? Let me hope No.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:39:46 AM

An interent resources are unlimited so everybody can find their whatever he/she wants.
Do you identify Stalin and Russians? Let me hope No.



I am quoting serious scholars, not some yahoo with a keyboard.  I have also read many of the archival documents and spoken to those who survived.  So my experience, unlike yours, is not restricted to the internet and what revisionists want me to believe.  You posts indicate, mirror, that you are not, I believe, capable of true independent analytic thought. 

Anyone with a passing familiarity with Soviet history knows Stalin was Georgian.  However, real Georgians say Stalin was not Georgian, as "real Georgians" have surnames ending in "dze".  

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:41:18 AM
On a serious note, I do not distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians.  I do distinguish between those who actively supported oppression and those who were its victims.


It is really funny to see how Ukr tell everywhere about being victims from Russians and then they say that they supporting victims (themselves).  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:43:25 AM
On a serious note, I do not distinguish between Ukrainians and Russians.  I do distinguish between those who actively supported oppression and those who were its victims.


It is really funny to see how Ukr tell everywhere about being victims from Russians and then they say that they supporting victims (themselves).  

When did I ever state Ukrainians were the victims of Russians?  I made it was clear they were victims of Soviets.  Or perhaps, more accurately, Bolsheviks.

Now as a good little sovok, I know you have now turned into a raging nationalist (you are no different than all those Ukrainian nationalists you so despise - LOL), but really, you need to learn to read what is written, rather than what you assume is written.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:45:57 AM

I am quoting serious scholars, not some yahoo with a keyboard.  I have also read many of the archival documents and spoken to those who survived.  So my experience is not restricted.

Anyone with a passing familiarity with Soviet history knows Stalin was Georgian.  However, real Georgians say Stalin was not Georgian, as "real Georgians" have surnames ending in "dze". 



I don't believe my eyes. Stalin-Djugashvilli was not Georgian?  I have one friend-Georgian man from Gory who knows a house where Stalin was born.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:48:16 AM
Again, mirror, you did not read what I posted.  I posted that Georgians say Stalin did not have an ethnic Georgian surname.  I never posted he was not Georgian.  Just noting what Georgians have stated.


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:50:25 AM

Now as a good little sovok, I know you have now turned into a raging nationalist (you are no different than all those Ukrainian nationalists you so despise - LOL), but really, you need to learn to read what is written, rather than what you assume is written.

You can name me whatever you want it doesn't bother me.  :smokin:

Of course I understand you naming me "a nationalist",in your opinion everybody should take your point of view. But sorry,it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 04:52:50 AM
Again, mirror, you did not read what I posted.  I posted that Georgians say Stalin did not have an ethnic Georgian surname.  I never posted he was not Georgian.  Just noting what Georgians have stated.

I don't take this trick to tell something from 3th faces "one babuska said".
Georgians could not say that because there -shvilly and -dge are Georgians.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:54:17 AM

Now as a good little sovok, I know you have now turned into a raging nationalist (you are no different than all those Ukrainian nationalists you so despise - LOL), but really, you need to learn to read what is written, rather than what you assume is written.

You can name me whatever you want it doesn't bother me.  :smokin:

Of course I understand you naming me "a nationalist",in your opinion everybody should take your point of view. But sorry,it didn't happen.

No, I don't expect everyone to take my point of view.  But I do expect people not to ignore historical fact.  There is ample evidence the 1932/33 famine in Ukraine was orchestrated.  There is ample evidence grain was confiscated, and peasants were starved to death, because they resisted collectivization.  Those are historical facts, no matter how you want to spin them.

What can be debated is whether this was a genocide; That is, whether Ukrainians were specifically targeted because they were Ukrainian, rather than because they were peasants.  My own leaning is the latter, but there are those who argue the former.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 04:56:33 AM
Again, mirror, you did not read what I posted.  I posted that Georgians say Stalin did not have an ethnic Georgian surname.  I never posted he was not Georgian.  Just noting what Georgians have stated.

I don't take this trick to tell something from 3th faces "one babuska said".
Georgians could not say that because there -shvilly and -dge are Georgians.

No, many Georgians state "shvilli" is not a true Georgian surname.  That is all I was saying.

There are plenty of Russians today with a surname ending in "ko", who swear up and down they are Russians, but this is not a Russian surname.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:01:31 AM

No, I don't expect everyone to take my point of view.  But I do expect people not to ignore historical fact.  There is ample evidence the 1932/33 famine in Ukraine was orchestrated.  There is ample evidence grain was confiscated, and peasants were starved to death, because they resisted collectivization.  Those are historical facts, no matter how you want to spin them.

What can be debated is whether this was a genocide; That is, whether Ukrainians were specifically targeted because they were Ukrainian, rather than because they were peasants.  My own leaning is the latter, but there are those who argue the former.

I know from my grandparents that 1922-25 years were a hunger time and plus a collectivisation.people were even eating each other and it happened not only in Ukr like you want to show it.So it was not a genocide. In South Volga area people died even more than in Ukr.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:05:30 AM

No, many Georgians state "shvilli" is not a true Georgian surname.  That is all I was saying.

There are plenty of Russians today with a surname ending in "ko", who swear up and down they are Russians, but this is not a Russian surname.

You make two mistakes. One-"shvilli" is a real Georgian suffix and second - surnames with an end "Ko" can be Russian and Ukr also.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:07:04 AM

No, I don't expect everyone to take my point of view.  But I do expect people not to ignore historical fact.  There is ample evidence the 1932/33 famine in Ukraine was orchestrated.  There is ample evidence grain was confiscated, and peasants were starved to death, because they resisted collectivization.  Those are historical facts, no matter how you want to spin them.

What can be debated is whether this was a genocide; That is, whether Ukrainians were specifically targeted because they were Ukrainian, rather than because they were peasants.  My own leaning is the latter, but there are those who argue the former.

I know from my grandparents that 1922-25 years were a hunger time and plus a collectivisation.people were even eating each other and it happened not only in Ukr like you want to show it.So it was not a genocide. In South Volga area people died even more than in Ukr.

The famines in 1921/23 were not orchestrated.  That is the difference.

You should read the demographics of the Volga.  That region was heavily populated by Ukrianians.

Nevertheless, I already noted Russian and Kazakh peasants, among others, were also victims of collectivization.  So, you are not posting anything new.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:08:43 AM

No, many Georgians state "shvilli" is not a true Georgian surname.  That is all I was saying.

There are plenty of Russians today with a surname ending in "ko", who swear up and down they are Russians, but this is not a Russian surname.

You make two mistakes. One-"shvilli" is a real Georgian suffix and second - surnames with an end "Ko" can be Russian and Ukr also.

A century, ago, no ethnic Russian had a surname ending in "ko".   Before the Revolution, Ukrainians who moved to Russia changed their surnames to "kov" so their children would not be mocked in schools.

Really, mirror, you need to read some history . . .
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 05:10:50 AM


The famine in 1921 was not a forced famine.  It was based on a number of factors, including a drought, lack of railways the after effects of WWI, etc.  

NOT according to :

http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/country.asp?country=37 and a Ukrainian ( but ethnic Russian journo) I know..


Stalin was not the architect of collectivization.  That honour goes to Trotsky.  But, the "famine" that followed was indeed communist imposed.  Local communists, half of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, supported collectivization, and were predominantly the ones who physically carried it out.

..and WHO was the "top man" - who would have approved the plan !?
Did the "local ethnic Ukrainian Communists" also dream up the mass movement of indigenous peoples from Ukraine to "less clement" regions of Russia? ..

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:11:47 AM
I say about all natiolaties who were saffering from a hunger and it is a difference from what you say.You try to show that only Ukr like victims and I say that all nationalities were victims from a hunger those time:Tatars,Russians,Germans,Kazakhs...

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:18:43 AM


The famine in 1921 was not a forced famine.  It was based on a number of factors, including a drought, lack of railways the after effects of WWI, etc.  

NOT according to :

http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/country.asp?country=37 and a Ukrainian ( but ethnic Russian journo) I know..


Stalin was not the architect of collectivization.  That honour goes to Trotsky.  But, the "famine" that followed was indeed communist imposed.  Local communists, half of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, supported collectivization, and were predominantly the ones who physically carried it out.

..and WHO was the "top man" - who would have approved the plan !?
Did the "local ethnic Ukrainian Communists" also dream up the mass movement of indigenous peoples from Ukraine to "less clement" regions of Russia? ..


There was a major drought in Russia, and a lesser one in Ukraine at that time.  Most of the deaths, which were significant in both republics, were attributable not to collectivization (which occurred a few years later), but rather, to the drought (to a lesser extent) and more signficantly, to inferior transportation.

My point was, there was no forced collectivization in Ukraine in 1921/22.  See here -

http://www.encyclopediaof*Unapproved Link*/pages/F/A/Famine.htm

As for your comment on Stalin, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Collectivization was Trotsky's idea.  Stalin was party leader by 1932, but it was Kaganovich who was responsible for implementing the policy in Ukraine.  And yes, Ukrainian communists were the party cadres who actually went to villages and confiscated grain and all food.

My point was that this can't be blamed solely on Stalin, nor on Russian communists.  Much as Ukrainian nationalists would like to have everyone believe no one in Ukraine was responsible, this is not accurate. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:19:51 AM
I say about all natiolaties who were saffering from a hunger and it is a difference from what you say.You try to show that only Ukr like victims and I say that all nationalities were victims from a hunger those time:Tatars,Russians,Germans,Kazakhs...



I have never posted that.  I have stated Ukrainians suffered disproportionately.   Where the dispute arises among historians (and nationalists) is as to whether they suffered disproportionately because they were Ukrainian, or because more Ukrainians were peasants.

There is a difference and no matter how many times you assert otherwise, it won't change what I have posted.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:27:15 AM
No, people in Volga were died much more than Ukr but I understand your wish to deform facts.I can say more in Ukr those time a situation with a food was even better than in the middle of Russia.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 05:30:45 AM

There was a major drought in Russia at that time that resulted in a huge number of deaths.  Most of that was attributable not to collectivization (which occurred a few years later), but to the drought and transportation.

My point was, there was no forced collectivization in Ukraine in 1921/22.  See here -

http://www.encyclopediaof*Unapproved Link*/pages/F/A/Famine.htm

Do you check out your sources ;)

It backs up my contention, surely ..viz

The Ukrainian SSR experienced three severe famines, during which millions perished. These occurred in the wake of reduced grain yields caused by poor harvests. But the major contributing factor in each case was food requisitions (or seizures) by Soviet authorities that left the population without enough to sustain itself over any extended period of time. The famines of 1921–3 and 1946–7 were previously regarded largely as the results of poor harvests. However, research undertaken since the late 1980s has established the centrality of Soviet requisitions in transforming the existing food shortfalls into calamitous famines.

OK, so not just collectivisation - gross mismanagement?


As for your comment on Stalin, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Collectivization was Trotsky's idea.  Stalin was party leader by 1932, but it was Kaganovich who was responsible for implementing the policy.  And yes, Ukrainian communists were the party cadres who actually went to villages and confiscated grain and all food.

My point was that this can't be blamed solely on Stalin, nor on Russian communists.  Much as Ukrainian nationalists would like to have everyone believe no one in Ukraine was responsible, this is not accurate.

Happy to concede that Ukrainian Communists were complicit - but they were responsible to RUSSIAN Soviet "masters"..

For SURE - it is time to "move on" ... Modern Ukrainians and Russians can't hold grudges committed by ancestors during those times ..
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:35:04 AM
According to all statistics I have seen, that is not accurate.  But what is accurate is that large parts of the Volga that suffered from forced collectivization were populated by ethnic Ukrainians.  I note you have ignored that fact repeatedly.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:43:00 AM
According to all statistics I have seen, that is not accurate.  But what is accurate is that large parts of the Volga that suffered from forced collectivization were populated by ethnic Ukrainians.  I note you have ignored that fact repeatedly.

I don't see a reason to allocate Ukr only. I say about all people who died from famines.
In Volga area was living and still live Tatars,Germans,Ukr,Bashkirs,Russians.. and Ukr never were in a majority. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:43:42 AM

There was a major drought in Russia at that time that resulted in a huge number of deaths.  Most of that was attributable not to collectivization (which occurred a few years later), but to the drought and transportation.

My point was, there was no forced collectivization in Ukraine in 1921/22.  See here -

http://www.encyclopediaof*Unapproved Link*/pages/F/A/Famine.htm

Do you check out your sources ;)

It backs up my contention, surely ..viz

The Ukrainian SSR experienced three severe famines, during which millions perished. These occurred in the wake of reduced grain yields caused by poor harvests. But the major contributing factor in each case was food requisitions (or seizures) by Soviet authorities that left the population without enough to sustain itself over any extended period of time. The famines of 1921–3 and 1946–7 were previously regarded largely as the results of poor harvests. However, research undertaken since the late 1980s has established the centrality of Soviet requisitions in transforming the existing food shortfalls into calamitous famines.

OK, so not just collectivisation - gross mismanagement?


As for your comment on Stalin, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Collectivization was Trotsky's idea.  Stalin was party leader by 1932, but it was Kaganovich who was responsible for implementing the policy.  And yes, Ukrainian communists were the party cadres who actually went to villages and confiscated grain and all food.

My point was that this can't be blamed solely on Stalin, nor on Russian communists.  Much as Ukrainian nationalists would like to have everyone believe no one in Ukraine was responsible, this is not accurate.

Happy to concede that Ukrainian Communists were complicit - but they were responsible to RUSSIAN Soviet "masters"..

For SURE - it is time to "move on" ... Modern Ukrainians and Russians can't hold grudges committed by ancestors during those times ..

Of course I read my sources.  There were droughts, as I noted, and there were problems in transportation.    My main point was that this was not the result of collectivization.  

You must remember that Bolsheviks did not believe in ethnic demarcations.  They were attempting to build a new Soviet man, free from the constraints of the past, which included ethnic identity.  The "masters" of the USSR at the time of the Holodomor were not Russians.  The communist functionaries who actually carried out grain confiscation and recording deaths were not all Russians.  Russians suffered just as much as Ukrainians.  So, I don't buy all of that.

I have been studying the Holodomor since the 1980's, when I was working on a graduate degree in history, and long before it was ever called the "Holodomor".  I am familiar with most of the scholars in this area.  I remember when the Soviets, in the last gasps of so called "glasnost'" began showing Canadian documentaries on the subject in Ukraine.  I also remember how all the good Ukrainian "nationalists" of today had no interest in establishing a chair in famine studies at the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, and how they restricted access to archives to historians.  So, I am a little perturbed this has been usurped for political purposes.  

On modern Ukrainians and Russians - part of this is a natural reaction to the unnatural suppression of ethnic identity which occurred under the Bolsheviks.  Western Europeans had time to sort this all out.  That was denied to East Europeans.  But, the Holodomor, in particular, is used for political purposes, and, in that process, the real truth is ignored.


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:45:26 AM
According to all statistics I have seen, that is not accurate.  But what is accurate is that large parts of the Volga that suffered from forced collectivization were populated by ethnic Ukrainians.  I note you have ignored that fact repeatedly.

I don't see a reason to allocate Ukr only. I say about all people who died from famines.
In Volga area was living and still live Tatars,Germans,Ukr,Bashkirs,Russians.. and Ukr never were in a majority.  

I never stated Ukrainians were the only victims.  However, in the regions of the Volga where collectivization was most forcefully enforced, the populations were predominantly Ukrainian.  Robert Conquest first noted this in Harvest of Sorrow, pubished over 20 years ago, and this is used by those who argue the famine was genocide to buttress their position.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:52:10 AM

I have been studying the Holodomor since the 1980's, when I was working on a graduate degree in history, and long before it was ever called the "Holodomor".  I am familiar with most of the scholars in this area.  

You being studying the Holodomor makes you sound like a truth in a last instance. But we are able to read other scientists with even more high graduate degree than yours so sorry, for arguing with you ( a master of degree) in this thread.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:55:10 AM
 Robert Conquest first noted this in Harvest of Sorrow, pubished over 20 years ago, and this is used by those who argue the famine was genocide to buttress their position.

It is very comfortable to say that "it is not me who said that I am a victim.It is Robert Conquest".
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:57:12 AM

I have been studying the Holodomor since the 1980's, when I was working on a graduate degree in history, and long before it was ever called the "Holodomor".  I am familiar with most of the scholars in this area.  

You being studying the Holodomor makes you sound like a truth in a last instance. But we are able to read other scientists with even more high graduate degree than yours so sorry, for arguing with you in this thread.

I never stated my truth is that of the last instance.  What I did state was that scholars in the area (not me) all agree on the causes of the famine (man made) and the minimum number of victims in Ukraine (4 million, with some estimates as high as 10 million).  The number of victims in the Volga is estimated at 3 million.

You should stop reading the pages of lenta.ru.  If you read Conquest, or Mace, or Pipes, or Ellman, or Bilinsky, all recognized scholars with PhD's and a long history of research, you would note I am merely repeating what they have asserted.  And no matter how much you argue otherwise, the truth is there.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 05:58:19 AM
I never stated Ukrainians were the only victims.  However, in the regions of the Volga where collectivization was most forcefully enforced, the populations were predominantly Ukrainian.  

I repeat again that Ukr neve been in a majority in Volga area.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:58:57 AM
 Robert Conquest first noted this in Harvest of Sorrow, pubished over 20 years ago, and this is used by those who argue the famine was genocide to buttress their position.

It is very comfortable to say that "it is not me who said that I am a victim.It is Robert Conquest".

It is very comfortable to lie when those who have researched and written extensively on the subject disagree with you, and you've been caught with your pants down.

I would expect nothing different from a sovok.  Bald faced lies continue in the face of truth.  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 05:59:45 AM
I never stated Ukrainians were the only victims.  However, in the regions of the Volga where collectivization was most forcefully enforced, the populations were predominantly Ukrainian.  

I repeat again that Ukr neve been in a majority in Volga area.

Irrelevant.  They were the majority in the regions in which collectivization was implemented.

As an analogy, I will point out that Jews were never the majority in any Tsarist Empire Russian city.  But they were the majority of victims of pogroms.

(And, once again, I will clarify that I do not believe Ukrainians, as an ethnic group, were targeted.)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 06:09:15 AM

I never stated my truth is that of the last instance.  What I did state was that scholars in the area (not me) all agree on the causes of the famine (man made) and the minimum number of victims in Ukraine (4 million, with some estimates as high as 10 million).  The number of victims in the Volga is estimated at 3 million.

You should stop reading the pages of lenta.ru.  If you read Conquest, or Mace, or Pipes, or Ellman, or Bilinsky, all recognized scholars with PhD's and a long history of research, you would note I am merely repeating what they have asserted.  And no matter how much you argue otherwise, the truth is there.

If you will read other scientists then you will see that all regions- food giving regions were suffering from prodrasverstka and of course Ukr like a region with good fruitful fields were suffering too. But what didn't you want? It was a plan of collectivisation and they should give a food for other people who lived in other areas with a bad soil . It was not a genocide.It was a Soviet government's plan how to create a society where all are equal each other.

Why should I prefer Western writters if we have our own?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 06:13:11 AM
As an analogy, I will point out that Jews were never the majority in any Tsarist Empire Russian city.  But they were the majority of victims of pogroms.


I see now you want that  Jews would take your side with similar appeals.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 06:16:37 AM

I never stated my truth is that of the last instance.  What I did state was that scholars in the area (not me) all agree on the causes of the famine (man made) and the minimum number of victims in Ukraine (4 million, with some estimates as high as 10 million).  The number of victims in the Volga is estimated at 3 million.

You should stop reading the pages of lenta.ru.  If you read Conquest, or Mace, or Pipes, or Ellman, or Bilinsky, all recognized scholars with PhD's and a long history of research, you would note I am merely repeating what they have asserted.  And no matter how much you argue otherwise, the truth is there.

If you will read other scientists then you will see that all regions- food giving regions were suffering from prodrasverstka and of course Ukr like a region with good fruitful fields were suffering too. But what didn't you want? It was a plan of collectivisation and they should give a food for other people who lived in other areas bad soil . It was not a genocide.It was a Soviet government's plan how to create a society where all are equal each other.

Why should I prefer Western writters if we have our own?

I never stated it was a genocide.  Most Western scholars have not stated that either.  Nevertheless, the facts are indisputable.  Any serious scholar who has viewed the archives comes to the same conclusion; The Holodomor was a man made famine.

There are about a dozen scholars in Kyiv who have studied this as well.  It is one of those Ukrainian scholars, a demographer, who has pegged the number of victims at around 4 million, far less than previous estimates.

I know of no serious scholar from Russia who has studied this.  But I do know Russian papers are filled with official mouthpieces who are not serious scholars, but have opinions on the issue.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 06:17:32 AM
As an analogy, I will point out that Jews were never the majority in any Tsarist Empire Russian city.  But they were the majority of victims of pogroms.


I see now you want that  Jews would take your side with similar appeals.

LOL.  Well, your "superior Soviet education" is certainly demonstrable.  

I never stated this.  It was an ANALOGY which I thought would be comprehendable for your simple mind.  Evidently I overestimated you.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 06:21:31 AM
I think you need to take a rest,Halushka.

We know that United Nations didn't take Yushenko's the recognition requirement of Holodomor like a genoside of Ukr folk.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 06:23:29 AM
You're the one who needs to take a rest.  Or better yet, a course in READING COMPREHENSION.

"Ukrainian folk" have various opinions on whether or not the Holodomor was a genocide. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 06:23:33 AM
 It was an ANALOGY which I thought would be comprehendable for your simple mind.  

Yes, take me like a simple mind and I'll take you like a small head.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 06:26:46 AM
 It was an ANALOGY which I thought would be comprehendable for your simple mind.  

Yes, take me like a simple mind and I'll take you like a small head.

I can only gauge by your posts here, which are not exactly illuminating.  You have little knowledge of history and irrational prejudices.  Both are indicia of limited intellect.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 06:31:47 AM
I can only gauge by your posts here, which are not exactly illuminating.  You have little knowledge of history and irrational prejudices.  Both are indicia of limited intellect.

I promiss you I will continue to learn English just to keep talking to you.

I have enough knowledge of history to be able to recognise where is white and where is black. But if what you write makes you happier then let stay it like that and be happy.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 06:33:16 AM

Of course I read my sources.  There were droughts, as I noted, and there were problems in transportation.    My main point was that this was not the result of collectivization.  

NO.. I think it is clear you were stating that the earlier "famine" was attributable to a natural phenomenon.. surely we BOTH agree  - now - as your quoted source backs up mine- that this is NOT the case.. the shortage was a calculated human act  ..


You must remember that Bolsheviks did not believe in ethnic demarcations.  They were attempting to build a new Soviet man, free from the constraints of the past, which included ethnic identity.  The "masters" of the USSR at the time of the Holodomor were not Russians.  The communist functionaries who actually carried out grain confiscation and recording deaths were not all Russians.  Russians suffered just as much as Ukrainians.  So, I don't buy all of that.

*I'm* referring to the matter that Ukrainians ( you can insert Poles, Hungarians, et al )  - in general didn't "ask" to be governed by Bolshevism by - period.. and it originated from Russia..  Here we are nearly 100 years later and we STILL see Russia is trying to dictate what goes on in Ukraine! Russian TV - almost daily - mentions problems in UA or problems with UA relations.

On modern Ukrainians and Russians - part of this is a natural reaction to the unnatural suppression of ethnic identity which occurred under the Bolsheviks.  Western Europeans had time to sort this all out.  That was denied to East Europeans.

Sadly, I'm not convinced that modern Russia is going to accept that most of the problems are attributuable to past ( unwanted -in general ) Rusio-Bolshevism expansionism.

Mr Putin's reminder re the immorality of the M-R pact was a "good move"..


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 06:40:31 AM
[
The famines in 1921/23 were not orchestrated.  

I hope we can agree that that this statement may not be correct - as backed up for your sources...

However, I appreciate that you offering reasoned debate... I DON'T see that from Mirror.. just dogma - and from oft discredited "data" - even from within Russia.

It never ceases to astound me how many VERY smart Russians STILL want to perpetuate this misplaced mistrust....  I certainly blame Russian TV news
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 06:43:47 AM
1msmoby,

do you want to be happy too? Then I bless you also!  

Now I leave you because I have plenty of things what to do, tommorow -a working day.

Have a fun without me.   :smokin:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 06, 2009, 06:44:37 AM

Of course I read my sources.  There were droughts, as I noted, and there were problems in transportation.    My main point was that this was not the result of collectivization.  

NO.. I think it is clear you were stating that the earlier "famine" was attributable to a natural phenomenon.. surely we BOTH agree  - now - as your quoted source backs up mine- that this is NOT the case.. the shortage was a calculated human act  ..


You must remember that Bolsheviks did not believe in ethnic demarcations.  They were attempting to build a new Soviet man, free from the constraints of the past, which included ethnic identity.  The "masters" of the USSR at the time of the Holodomor were not Russians.  The communist functionaries who actually carried out grain confiscation and recording deaths were not all Russians.  Russians suffered just as much as Ukrainians.  So, I don't buy all of that.

*I'm* referring to the matter that Ukrainians ( you can insert Poles, Hungarians, et al )  - in general didn't "ask" to be governed by Bolshevism by - period.. and it originated from Russia..  Here we are nearly 100 years later and we STILL see Russia is trying to dictate what goes on in Ukraine! Russian TV - almost daily - mentions problems in UA or problems with UA relations.

On modern Ukrainians and Russians - part of this is a natural reaction to the unnatural suppression of ethnic identity which occurred under the Bolsheviks.  Western Europeans had time to sort this all out.  That was denied to East Europeans.

Sadly, I'm not convinced that modern Russia is going to accept that most of the problems are attributuable to past ( unwanted -in general ) Rusio-Bolshevism expansionism.

Mr Putin's reminder re the immorality of the M-R pact was a "good move"..




My point on the 1921/22 famine was that it was different from 1932/33.  The latter was a concerted effort to starve to death the population.  The former may have had that result, but it was not the intent.

Russians didn't ask to be ruled by the Bolsheviks either.  The Bolsheviks never had wide scale support in Russia, ever.  They seized power.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on September 06, 2009, 07:01:03 AM
Welcome Halo,

Good to see a strong opinion here, well maybe you would like to introduce your self to the forum so we can get to know you :biggrin:

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 06, 2009, 07:18:01 AM
Welcome Halo,

Good to see a strong opinion here, well maybe you would like to introduce your self to the forum so we can get to know you :biggrin:



It is good to have you here. But if you are going to stay and debate with our lovely Mirror you are going to need a helmet and maybe some Vodka.... :'(
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on September 06, 2009, 07:23:59 AM
Welcome Halo,

Good to see a strong opinion here, well maybe you would like to introduce your self to the forum so we can get to know you :biggrin:



It is good to have you here. But if you are going to stay and debate with our lovely Mirror you are going to need a helmet and maybe some Vodka.... :'(

 :bow:   :ROFL:   :ROFL:   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 06, 2009, 07:34:18 AM
Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?
Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.
Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.
You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.
Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?
Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 06, 2009, 08:02:19 AM
Wild Orchid

Marke may be right about that competition results Checking on Canada's history with Miss World, we only started in 2003 having a contestant.

That is how you are checking? From the time when Canada started participating? I don't follow Canada involvement in beauty contests, and that is exactly what i was talking about - ANY beauty contests, where the most beautiful women of Ukraine are destined to win but for some "strange" reason not winning. 

Quote
The Miss World pageant is the oldest surviving major international beauty pageant. It was created in the United Kingdom by Eric Morley in 1951. Since his death in 2000, Morley's wife, Julia Morley, co-chairs the pageant.

Miss Universe contest started in 1952. Canada won it twice in 1982 and 2005. The winner of 2005 is Natalie Glebova - Russian Canadian born in Tuapse Russia , so her beauty is Russian any way.

Miss Earth 2007 is Canadian Jessica Trisko, her father is father is of Ukrainian-Russian heritage, and her mother is Filipino.

Miss Ukraine 2001 is quite famous, she was a semi-finalist  in Miss Universe, didn't win anything except for the heart of aging millionaire.  He was 72 and she was 26 when they got married, but kind of  predictable, don't you think?  :innocent:
(http://thisisdiversity.com/img/forall/Image/Oleksandra%20Nikolayenko4.jpg)


Back to when it all started for Ukraine

Quote
Miss Ukraine is a national beauty contest in Ukraine and was first held in 1991 in the "Palace of Ukraine".

Trying for 18 years now, and no winners so far.. It doesn't say Ukrainians aren't beautiful, it just says that they don't have anything to prove that they are  :chuckle:




The reasons of the famine are the subject of intense scholarly and political debate. Some historians claim the famine was purposely engineered by the Soviet authorities to attack Ukrainian nationalism, while others view it as an unintended consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during Soviet industrialization.


Let's read...

Quote
About 40 million people were affected by the food shortages including areas near Moscow where mortality rates increased by 50%. The center of the famine, however, was Ukraine and surrounding regions, including the Don, the Kuban, the Northern Caucasus and Kazakhstan where the toll was one million dead.

How Don and Kuban, Caucasus and Kazakhstan all became parts of Ukraine but not big parts of Russia, Kazakhstan obliviously and other independent regions I don't know. The famine (not proUkrainiane holodomor) happened in Russia as well, it was the result of Soviet government at that time, and I'm tired of stressing out that most of that Government wasn't Russian to start with but it is easier to blame Russia for everything that happened in the past.

this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union explains that there was no area in Soviet Union not affected by those tactics. All nations suffered, not only Ukrainians, but this point of view doesn't suit Ukrainians what so ever.

Lets talk instead about who rebuilt Ukraine after WWII and changed her from agricultural country of peasants into industrial country. Did Russian people get any credit for that? Silly question, I know  ::)
WO
I do not follow them either, but you are only confirming what I have said that we have a lot of lovely women, from all over the world, and you may have noticed a lot of them are located here in my city.  ;D Russia has only won once, for Miss Universe, and she ended her reign early. So I will go back to my original statement that for beauty I see no difference. :chuckle: What would you call a second generation Canadian. One who's parents were born in Russia, but the child was born here. Russian or Canadian. ?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 06, 2009, 08:38:31 AM
What would you call a second generation Canadian. One who's parents were born in Russia, but the child was born here. Russian or Canadian. ?
that's the point I've been trying to make for a while now, but it seems to fall on deaf ears...
I keep saying that Russians and Ukrainians are so intermingled/mixed with each other that genetically there is no difference at all. The only difference I see is cultural and is determined by the PLACE where they live and not their ethnicity. A Russian who was born and raised in Ukraine is going to be culturally more "Ukrainian" and different from a Russian born in Moscow or Nizhniy Novgorod. A Ukrainian born in Krasnoyarsk is going to identify more with the people from Krasnoyarsk than Lviv culturally.

One "wise" old dude made a sarcastic remark referring to my other "cultural differences" post stating something to the effect that it's like a Texan crossing over to OK and feeling "out of place". I'm sure he knows though that there cultural differences between different places in the USA as well, maybe not so drastic between TX and OK, but more like TX and NYC...is that so hard to fathom? And that's not even touching all the differences when you think about Afro-Americans and Caucasians, Hispanics, and all other ethnic groups that are rightfully just as American as out Tex.
If he can't see the difference in culture that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I would ask him: "Do you see cultural difference between Northern Italians and Sicilians?" To you they all probably are "Aytalians" but to them there is a very defined and clear difference. Hope you get my point  tiphat
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 08:40:02 AM

Now I leave you because I have plenty of things what to do, tommorow -a working day.

Have a fun without me.   :smokin:

Is this how you deal with a question that you don't  / can't answer..   !!??
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Link on September 06, 2009, 08:40:14 AM
Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?
Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.
Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.
You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.
Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?

It's amazing  the fact Hitler was not German and he put Germany and the world at stake, Stalin was not Russian and he put the USSR and the entire world at stake also.........
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 06, 2009, 08:58:15 AM
Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?
Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.
Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.
You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.
Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?
Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...

I agree Eduard. I was not trying to be critical of Mirror. I was just letting Halo know what he was in for.  :)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 06, 2009, 09:03:45 AM

that's the point I've been trying to make for a while now, but it seems to fall on deaf ears...
I keep saying that Russians and Ukrainians are so intermingled/mixed with each other that genetically there is no difference at all. The only difference I see is cultural and is determined by the PLACE where they live and not their ethnicity.

So...  and I KEEP asking you this..  How is an ethnic Russian  lady from Kharkov so different from one just across the national boundary in Russia?   Has 19 years made such a difference ?!

NO...

The ONLY *relevant* difference to WM *MIGHT* be the UA based lady *MIGHT* have had more contact with WM...  

A Russian who was born and raised in Ukraine is going to be culturally more "Ukrainian" and different from a Russian born in Moscow or Nizhniy Novgorod. A Ukrainian born in Krasnoyarsk is going to identify more with the people from Krasnoyarsk than Lviv culturally.

NO, no , no..

This is a VERY simplistic generalisation..  A lady in her late 30's / 40's has been educated in SOVIET times - when things were more "uniform" ...there hasn't been TIME for huge differences in Culture to evolve..


One "wise" old dude made a sarcastic remark referring to my other "cultural differences" post stating something to the effect that it's like a Texan crossing over to OK and feeling "out of place". I'm sure he knows though that there cultural differences between different places in the USA as well, maybe not so drastic between TX and OK, but more like TX and NYC...is that so hard to fathom?

No, it's not.. if you are comparing City ladies with country gals.. so try answering MY example, please..  !

I also asked you about a Krasnoyarsk lady now living in Kiev ( 20 years) and one having spent nearly all her time in Krasnoyarsk.. will the Kiev based lady have had her cultural norms  "changed"?.. NO.. she still has easy access to Russia and Ru TV.

If you are going to suggest I'm "thick".. then at least you could dispel my thought that you can't / won't answer a straight Q that would render your theory to be ... well .. NONSENSE..  

. I would ask him: "Do you see cultural difference between Northern Italians and Sicilians?" To you they all probably are "Aytalians" but to them there is a very defined and clear difference. Hope you get my point  tiphat

Another poor example..   "we" are comparing folk from the same gene pool - YOUR words - remember..  

My contention is STILL that ethnic Russian women from UA ( espec. slightly older ones) aren't different from those IN Russia.. any "cultural " differences are tiny.. and "new"..

I haven't seen ONE point you've made to counter that..
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Link on September 06, 2009, 09:05:29 AM
Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?
Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.
Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.
You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.
Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?
Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...

I agree Eduard. I was not trying to be critical of Mirror. I was just letting Halo know what he was in for.  :)

Having witnessed myself what kind of evil schemes an opressive, corrupt as hell regime - government can do on its own citizens, I completely undestand Eduard's point.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: hemingway on September 06, 2009, 09:13:00 AM
A simple question. Who was the RUA moderator who created this thread, and how was it determined to be productive in enhancing understanding and relations between western and FSU members and promoting relationships with FSU women?  :rolleye0009:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 06, 2009, 09:23:01 AM
Mirror and Wild Orchid

On the issue of the Hunger, or Holodomor as called by the Ukrainians, my point was that ancient history was being dragged back into the current time. That would create friction
between some people, in both countires, for even the present day regardless of any memories from ancestors. A event that occurred under different circumstances, and under a different method of being governed. Since the Ukrainians lead the charge, then they are the ones creating friction for this. Ancient history should remain ancient.  :)

Out of curiosity, I checked my own governments stand on this. We recognize the event took place, and theire are memorials to those who died are in certain cities here. I listened to the speech on line from our Prime Minister speaking at one of these milestones,(2008), in front of Ukrainians. We do not recognize Genocide, but that Stalin created this, from his zest for collectivism, and his lack of respect for his own subjects. ( He did use a little harsher words for that respect part  :chuckle:) More Ukrainians also died, because it was only an agricultural country at the time, and would be hit much harder then the others areas effected.  

Now you can correct me If I wrong, but from what I have read the Russian position is the same on this ancient history.   :nod:    
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 06, 2009, 09:39:50 AM
Moby, I'm not going to have a conversation with a man who IMO lacks in deeper intelligence. You've made a few trips and base all of your opinions on that and on "I asked my wife and she told me..." If I had a one on one conversation with your wife her and I might agree on a lot more points than we would disagree. You on the other hand consistently call any opinion that I express "nonesense" which is disrespectful and childish. Most of what you post is like white noise to me that I rarely bother to read or sometimes when I do start reading I quit after a few sentences. A lot of white noise, Moby.
If you want some one to have a debate with you:
1. show some respect
2. try to focus on one topic at a time and not bundle up 10 different topics in one post which makes it impossible to address for any one who's got limited time, got things to do and a family to attend to.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 06, 2009, 09:47:05 AM
A simple question. Who was the RUA moderator who created this thread, and how was it determined to be productive in enhancing understanding and relations between western and FSU members and promoting relationships with FSU women?  :rolleye0009:

good question....every time when forum members became less active....suddenly pop ups some "hot"thread.....  modes use forum members with their week sides in order to activate forum itself.... ::) :popcorn:
 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 06, 2009, 09:52:32 AM
A simple question. Who was the RUA moderator who created this thread, and how was it determined to be productive in enhancing understanding and relations between western and FSU members and promoting relationships with FSU women?  :rolleye0009:


If people actually stayed on the actual topic name, and discussed why there is some discord between certain countries, it may give a better understanding to us Western males as what to watch out for.  :nod:   Plus allow us to try to avoid stepping into a mine field by accident with the wrong comment.   :innocent:

But it usually fails, since some try to change a woman's mind, (something I keep seeing said in others threads that is impossible to do). The best they can hope for is that particular part of a subject to disappear from the conversation and know they won a very small victory, that will never be acknowledge by her.  :laugh:

The fact is that some Ukrainians do not like Russians, and some Russians do not like Ukrainians. It is not as one sided as some like to believe, or think, or even if one was born in one country or lives in the other.  tiphat
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 06, 2009, 11:08:34 AM

Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.


You have a good point. I thought you created this thread.
I apologize on that point.

You did make the post and you constantly make insults about Ukrainians.



You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.


I don't know the history? I wasn't taught Russian / Ukrainian history in school.
I had to educate myself.

I read "A History of Ukraine" by Robert Magocsi and
"Ukraine, A History" by Orest Subtelny
I read Russka which is a historical novel by Edward Rutherfurd  
I have a read number of other books as well. I am not trying to pass myself off
as an expert because I am not but I am not a person who knows nothing either.

Now please explain to me where I needed the knowledge of Russian / Ukrainian
history to say you are jealous and rude?

I do NOT have a bias against Russians. I have liked 99% of the Russians I have met.
I have dated more Russian women than I have Ukrainian women and there is no
difference between them as far as I can tell.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 06, 2009, 11:29:25 AM
The ONLY *relevant* difference to WM *MIGHT* be the UA based lady *MIGHT* have had more contact with WM...  

And that is not a good thing IMO.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 06, 2009, 12:05:25 PM
A simple question. Who was the RUA moderator who created this thread, and how was it determined to be productive in enhancing understanding and relations between western and FSU members and promoting relationships with FSU women?  :rolleye0009:

I can answer that, it was not a "Mod created topic", it was split from another topic unrelated to Russians & Ukrainians. The original poster did not want to have pages of debate about Russia vs Ukraine on his thread, which was asking for advice on another matter.

Here was the post that was split from the original topic, all further debate about Russia & Ukraine was split and put here.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8147.msg117085#msg117085

Please understand that we try to do the best we can to keep threads productive, polite & on-topic, without appearing heavy-handed. When some debate goes off topic and threatens to derail a thread, we have several choices.

1.) Lock the thread - people complain about this.
2.) Delete off-topic posts & arguments - people complain about this too.
3.) Leave the thread as is. - The Original posters question is lost after pages of off-topic debates
4.) What we chose to do was split this topic so that people would be free to debate if they wished, while not cluttering up the origiinal thread.



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 06, 2009, 12:57:17 PM
A simple question. Who was the RUA moderator who created this thread, and how was it determined to be productive in enhancing understanding and relations between western and FSU members and promoting relationships with FSU women?  :rolleye0009:

I can answer that, it was not a "Mod created topic", it was split from another topic unrelated to Russians & Ukrainians. The original poster did not want to have pages of debate about Russia vs Ukraine on his thread, which was asking for advice on another matter.

Here was the post that was split from the original topic, all further debate about Russia & Ukraine was split and put here.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8147.msg117085#msg117085

Please understand that we try to do the best we can to keep threads productive, polite & on-topic, without appearing heavy-handed. When some debate goes off topic and threatens to derail a thread, we have several choices.

1.) Lock the thread - people complain about this.
2.) Delete off-topic posts & arguments - people complain about this too.
3.) Leave the thread as is. - The Original posters question is lost after pages of off-topic debates
4.) What we chose to do was split this topic so that people would be free to debate if they wished, while not cluttering up the origiinal thread.





It was a sensible decision given the alternatives with one small suggestion.
I would recommend that the moderator say something like : This topic was
split off from "<some link here >" or something like that or people will think
that the first post and title were started by them (Mirror in this case)

I was p!ssed off by what Mirror posted but I was royally p!ssed off because I
thought she started a thread purely for the purpose to stir up a bunch of cr@p
I also had no idea how or what the context the comment was said in.

Of course if I read every thread I would have seen it, but I didn't and there
was already smoke rolling out of my ears and the keyboard started smoking
a half a second later.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 06, 2009, 03:33:46 PM

It was a sensible decision given the alternatives with one small suggestion.
I would recommend that the moderator say something like : This topic was
split off from "<some link here >" or something like that or people will think
that the first post and title were started by them (Mirror in this case)

Sorry that was missed.

Now fixed.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 06, 2009, 07:05:43 PM
What makes me wonder is that people who are out of knowing a hystorical details take one or another side....in this case I wonder that men here take Ukr side.

I can describe how it happen: Yushenko created this pity picture about a reason of poverty of Ukr and blamed Russians in it...despite of Russia supported Ukr for many many years.Ukr was extracting coal ,grewing  up wheat.Where is everything now? Did Russia take out all it from Ukr?  

What we see now it is Ukr stands on the roadside with the stretched hand for money from a West.

Russia has some poor regions and they are poor just because of climate feature so they need a help to survive.We name them-regions-recipients. And we have rich regions-donors (like my living republic).Donors like you all know share  their products with others. This structure came from Stalin's plan of collectivisation.This plan is here still.  Of course I can understand these rich regions and why they desire their independence.I hope you can guess also. But being Russian I understand that no other way to live together but only be friendly each other like  good neighbours.

Yes,I was brainwashed  but I prefer to live with my neighbours very close and to ask salt and matches when they finish in my house. I even will be asked if I have a bread . And I know they always will give me them like I will give my help to my neighbours when they will need it.  

What I saw it doesn't happen in the West. So when you try to measure a relations between FSU republics you even don't guess why you are wrong and where your mistake came from.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 06, 2009, 09:24:27 PM
The ONLY *relevant* difference to WM *MIGHT* be the UA based lady *MIGHT* have had more contact with WM...  

And that is not a good thing IMO.

I am beginning to agree with you.  :(
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 06, 2009, 09:28:57 PM


YES.. it IS a silly question...given the choice most ethnic Ukrainians didn't WANT the Red Army marching back into Kiev (1920 and 1943) to "save" them from independence !



That's what happened when you live in a place that called Ukraine (Okraina - on the border, on the outskirts). Outskirts of what? It is not like Red Army barged to India or South Africa or Egypt or Sudan or Indochina or many other countries that England made itself at home. If Okraina was Okraina of Russia, why couldn't Red army get in there?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 06, 2009, 09:43:11 PM


LOL.  Well, your "superior Soviet education" is certainly demonstrable.  


How old are you? I wonder who was teaching you while you were getting your degree, nor Soviet professors?

The same question goes to Ed... Weren't you brainwashed while you were growing up in Russia? You were not taken out of SU at birth, you parents are products of Soviet propaganda as mush as mine are..  Why always jump on this "she is brainwashed" wagon? Propaganda exists everywhere and you are affected by it as much as any Russian person.

Russia has only won once, for Miss Universe, and she ended her reign early.
Russia won Miss World twice.


Ukraine is independent for 18 years, but instead of moving forward it keeps blaming Russia for all it's misfortunes past and present and even Big Brother that payed for Orange revolution can't help it. Too bad..  ::)

Quote
What would you call a second generation Canadian. One who's parents were born in Russia, but the child was born here. Russian or Canadian. ?

If Canadian girl of Chinese descent would win Miss Universe would you say that it is Canadian  beauty? If there is no mixed blood in the girl and she was born in Russia as far as her looks are concerned she is Russian. I was told recently that i have Russian face, Australian citizenship didn't change it much.  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on September 07, 2009, 01:08:56 AM
The ONLY *relevant* difference to WM *MIGHT* be the UA based lady *MIGHT* have had more contact with WM...  

And that is not a good thing IMO.

I am beginning to agree with you.  :(

One of reasons I chose not to fish that pond!!!!!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 07, 2009, 06:24:20 AM


LOL.  Well, your "superior Soviet education" is certainly demonstrable.  


How old are you? I wonder who was teaching you while you were getting your degree, nor Soviet professors?

The same question goes to Ed... Weren't you brainwashed while you were growing up in Russia? You were not taken out of SU at birth, you parents are products of Soviet propaganda as mush as mine are..  Why always jump on this "she is brainwashed" wagon? Propaganda exists everywhere and you are affected by it as much as any Russian person.

Russia has only won once, for Miss Universe, and she ended her reign early.
Russia won Miss World twice.


Ukraine is independent for 18 years, but instead of moving forward it keeps blaming Russia for all it's misfortunes past and present and even Big Brother that payed for Orange revolution can't help it. Too bad..  ::)

Quote
What would you call a second generation Canadian. One who's parents were born in Russia, but the child was born here. Russian or Canadian. ?

If Canadian girl of Chinese descent would win Miss Universe would you say that it is Canadian  beauty? If there is no mixed blood in the girl and she was born in Russia as far as her looks are concerned she is Russian. I was told recently that i have Russian face, Australian citizenship didn't change it much.  :chuckle:




You must have special powers. :o Our Current Miss world is of Chinese descent, but born in this city, in 1987.   :chuckle: But what is a Canadian, or American, we all came from somewhere else, at some time in the past.  But I also expects she identifies with her original culture as well. As for me, I doubt if I could figure out if one had a Russian face or was from another country.  :laugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Ma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Ma)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 07, 2009, 06:48:37 AM
Moby, I'm not going to have a conversation with a man who IMO lacks in deeper intelligence.

That's a KOP out answer - plain and simple.. my questions put to you were VERY simple..

You've made a few trips and base all of your opinions on that and on "I asked my wife and she told me..." If I had a one on one conversation with your wife her and I might agree on a lot more points than we would disagree. You on the other hand consistently call any opinion that I express "nonesense" which is disrespectful and childish.

Well, Ed. IF you'd read my "white noise" you'd have realised that I'd made more than a few trips.. as I have - over the last eight years had a business that derives income from Russia... I have Russian and UA based business partners and have travelled EXTENSIVELY in the FSU.  I have lived with and worked with Russian speakers for all that time. We discuss Politics and Cultural differences ALL the time.. we have plenty of heated after dinner debates..

I have studied your nations history and literature since 15 years old. So my interest in your part of the world is NOT confined to ladies!

I don't disagree with "EVERYTHING" you say.. mainly it is your Ru v UA women generalisations with which I have "issues"...


There is nothing "childish" about contesting SOME of those

Most of what you post is like white noise to me that I rarely bother to read or sometimes when I do start reading I quit after a few sentences. A lot of white noise, Moby.
If you want some one to have a debate with you:
1. show some respect
2. try to focus on one topic at a time and not bundle up 10 different topics in one post which makes it impossible to address for any one who's got limited time, got things to do and a family to attend to.

Oh dear Ed,

I think you'll find my questions are EXTREMELY precise - it's just you make a big song and dance - questioning my intelligence - rather than addressing them ;)



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Chris on September 07, 2009, 06:50:56 AM

Could you please elaborate why Mirror is jealous?

Because she uses any and all excuses to accuse UW of everything and anything.



Really? I said from first place in this thread that Chris created this topic and then you got a right to blame me for this discussion.

You don't know a history but you have some bad bias towards Russians.You talk about Ukr history without knowing anything.

Can you deny the fact that Americans think that all Russians-communists and there are a red threat from Russia ?



First I didn't create this thread, you will probably not have noticed but I have not been around for most of August as I have been travelling abroad.

Second I will debate the rest of your comments on this thread with you once I have had time to catch up, but I see others are already streets ahead of you though and doing a good job anyway  :)

I am only glad my wife is not here to read this as she would give you Mirror some not very nice first hand accounts of life in Ukraine, specifically Western Ukraine under Soviet occupation and the affect it had on her and many thousands of other families.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 07, 2009, 06:56:58 AM



YES.. it IS a silly question...given the choice most ethnic Ukrainians didn't WANT the Red Army marching back into Kiev (1920 and 1943) to "save" them from independence !




That's what happened when you live in a place that called Ukraine (Okraina - on the border, on the outskirts). Outskirts of what? It is not like Red Army barged to India or South Africa or Egypt or Sudan or Indochina or many other countries that England made itself at home. If Okraina was Okraina of Russia, why couldn't Red army get in there?

Whoops WO,

1/ I'm Irish - not British ;)

2/ Britain has handed back it's colonies ( conquests)... most of them exist as equal partners within the Commonwealth.. or as partners - like Ireland within the EU..

3/ WHAT has the name - "border lands" -  of a nation got to do with another nation ( Russia)  constantly trying to undermine the first nations DEMOCRATICALLY elected government .. ? ..and attempting to dictate which "club" ( EU, UN ) it joins..?

4/ What the heck has THAT to do with UA women - many of them who feel as Russian as you, and would LIKE to be thought of as Russian - not Ukrainian ?





Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 07, 2009, 07:09:07 AM
I don't find this thread usefull for people who took Ukr nationalist's side already or for people like me , who has Russian mentality.

I have limited English to be equal to somebody who uses fluent English so I reserve the right  to make my own conclusions about winners and won in this thread.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Chris on September 07, 2009, 07:14:59 AM
Quote from: Ed
Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...

There is a lot of truth in this Ed and thanks for pointing it out again, it is not hard to understand why the likes of Mirror et al see the world as they do, but their stubborn relentless chanting of the party line mantra after so many years and despite the weight of information that is now freely available and for the most part giving a contra argument is what is most annoying to those of us who have alternative views.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 07, 2009, 07:21:52 AM
I don't find this thread usefull for people who took Ukr nationalist's side already or for people like me , who has Russian mentality.

I have limited English to be equal to somebody who uses fluent English so I reserve the right  to make my own conclusions about winners and won in this thread.

Mirror, I understand that this is not your first language.

BUT.. please try to listen to our points.. we aren't all married to Ukrainians -  many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Let's be honest.. the messes of Ukraine, Georgia are relics of times when Soviet leaders changed boundaries WITHIN the SSR - never realising the the SSR would break-up.. [ Stalin integrating Abkhazia with Georgia and Kruschev making Crimea part of Ukraine SSR, being prime examples..]

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: skiingandrunning on September 07, 2009, 08:28:28 AM
OK, I have a bad feeling that this post will be pouring fire on this debate, but I thought there might be of some value.  

First, I have only met one Ukrainian who did not like Russians and she was in Lvov (to be expected).  I have met a number (OK, less than a dozen) Russians who have complained about Ukrainians (funny as it usually revolves around the topic of trust and usually came up in the letter writing stage so it could be taken as something of a pitch to see them and not someone else).  Unfortunately, I have not saved those letters so it's just my word on this one.

But, the friction is not just between Ukraine and Russia as some in the Baltic states look at Russia as a big bully.  This letter that I'll share came from a Lithuanian friend who is against my Russian adventures.  Now a little background is needed as her family lost a lot after the Soviets took over the country so her family has reasons to maintain a bias.

Lastly, these are not my words or my feelings as I do not agree with them at all.   I'm just using it as an example that friction does exist and often it's the history and not the people who are blamed.  In this case she believes it's the Soviet system that is to blame.  Also, when reading it, it almost reminded me of the actions of GCG's that she was describing, so if not for the blanket statement that all women are like this, you could use it as a warning that one should be careful.

Quote
Hi Mark,

I have day off today from my work  I want to share with you what kind of experience I have about Russians.
You always lived in free country and you have no idea how Russian system damage peoples brains. My parents work very hard to protect us as kids from that damage. And I think they succeeded. I know there is that myth flying in the air that Russian women are very good wives and etc, but you need to understand that you will get a package of damage brain, absolutely different point of view to life and values and for you will take more like your life trying to figure out what is wrong with her. And it's true for all Soviet Union countries where you can feel Russian influence most, especially Ukraine, Belarus.

From my experience when I was living in Lithuania I know that Russian women do everything I mean EVERYTHING to please a man from beginning just to get him and later on a they became very cold, closed inside and they have some kind of sadness inside of them, that even for Lithuanians very hard to understand. Russian womens always wanted to get Lithuanian guys, because Lithuania was so much advanced country compare to Russia. They usually got Lithuanian guys by getting pregnant. So, watch out! However, very few Lithuanian men married Russian women, because everybody knew it how tricky they are. They have all Wikipedia how to get guys. They will make situation were you think you are chasing girl, but actually they arranged that for you. They come to guys with a lot of affection, love and understanding and a lot of good sex. However, that fantasy usually don't last very long after marriage. They targets usually are very lonely guys.

I know for you will sounds weird and I know you think that I'm Russian women, but if you call me that name directly to my face I will feel very insulted. I'm sorry to tell you that but that's what kind of experience I have and that's how bad reputation of Russian women's are in Lithuania.

 I would be happy to continue this discussion with you if you had different experience, during your visits in the Russia but don’t forget that you were foreigner-visiting country for short time and people around you behaved different way they really are in real life.

For me even worst American women is much better because she is who she is and she is not pretending to be somebody else and she has pretty same life values.

Anyway, I felt very responsible to share this information with you. I know you are living in Russian fantasy and I'm sorry this info probably disappointed you and I'm even more sorry to tell you as American guy you never will find a happiness with Russian women it just to much unrepairable brain damage they have from the system that goes already throw many generations.

Must run,

Take care my friend,
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mendeleyev on September 07, 2009, 09:15:48 AM
Quote
I know for you will sounds weird and I know you think that I'm Russian women, but if you call me that name directly to my face I will feel very insulted. I'm sorry to tell you that but that's what kind of experience I have and that's how bad reputation of Russian women's are in Lithuania.


Very telling. Very real life experience. Her feelings are not rare, you can find this all over the FSU.

However as Moby points out, Soviet leaders used forced immigration to "dilute" the local populations they were conquering. Russians were moved in among locals to blend and help "russianize" an area. Today Russians remain in those places and so many ladies in places like Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, etc, do "feel themselves" very much Russian.


Quote
I would be happy to continue this discussion with you if you had different experience, during your visits in the Russia but don’t forget that you were foreigner-visiting country for short time and people around you behaved different way they really are in real life.


From God's lips to our ears.  :) We'd do well to keep this always in mind.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 09:40:59 AM
many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Actually my first hand knowledge is the opposite.  Very few if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

I see it more along the lines of the KKK and blacks, today.  The KKK doesn't represent the majority of whites  in the US. But they wish they did and they talk like they do. Much like the women here do.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 07, 2009, 10:47:13 AM
  Very few UW if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

This is what I have found too. In the West, Russians quickly realize that nobody really understands them, different language, different culture, different quisine, different humour, different history.

The only other groups that have a common heritage (ie Soviet era) are from Ukraine & FSU.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on September 07, 2009, 10:55:55 AM
  Very few UW if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

This is what I have found too. In the West, Russians quickly realize that nobody really understands them, different language, different culture, different quisine, different humour, different history.

The only other groups that have a common heritage (ie Soviet era) are from Ukraine & FSU.


OK adding my vote for the above, but then again I think I have said that about !!!! pages back. ::)

Talk about polls lets add one to this and see the outcome of opinion here 8)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 11:05:43 AM
A poll will show that these women are a minority in their opinion but they don't care. Just like the KKK.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 07, 2009, 11:19:23 AM
As with skiingandrunning I also have received comments in correspondence with unflattering remarks concerning one side or the other.  My usual response is that I do not hold the same ideas as they might. But softened by the statement, we do not have the same deep history, nor have truly experienced war, or other events, in our cities as they have.
No one here can relate to what they or their families may have experienced, living here.

Now Altmike. I had a neighbour, lived right next door, who I knew quite well for many years. Nice friendly lady, be the life of any party you are at. After about ten years, She made a statement about blacks, that was truly venomous. What was very strange in that, a group of us got together quite often, and one couple was black. Never a sign she felt that way ever, till that statement that blew me away. Sometimes you may never know what someones true feelings are until something triggers them out.     :nod:

Just because they do not say it, does not mean they do not think it.    :-X      
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 11:40:05 AM
Very possible.
 But I have asked this direct question to many of the ladies here. I was baffled because of a incident here with an old russian ladies attitude. She had a `tude towards us when  we went to her shoppe to rent russian movies. She acted fine when we were 1 on 1, but when another russian woman was there.. She commented that" Oh, Never mind her,she is just a Ukrainian"

 That puzzled me so I have made it a routine question to all of the ladies from the FSU we meet. It's a very small minority that has this attitude, thus I can equate it to the KKK.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 07, 2009, 12:28:18 PM
Now I could ask that question of any group of a hundred here, and get 95 politically correct answers and five truthfull ones.  :laugh:

The bottom line comes down to whether those you asked, gave a PC answer, or what that really felt about it. I do not advocate it is all, just that it does exist.  And one should wonder at the reasons they feel that way, rather then just say they cannot, or insult their intelligence because of it. Did you ever ask that shop lady the question "why" ?

     

 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 12:39:39 PM
Good point! I assume that someone's being honest with answers. When they're proved to be a 'teller of fiction' they'll be suspect forever. Just ask the one mentioned in my sig lines.!  :nod: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 07, 2009, 01:43:09 PM
Good point! I assume that someone's being honest with answers. When they're proved to be a 'teller of fiction' they'll be suspect forever. Just ask the one mentioned in my sig lines.!  :nod: :chuckle: :chuckle:


But your shop lady indicates they are not tellers of fiction, but of real life.  :nod:


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 02:01:50 PM
Maybe 1 out of 50 that's truthful?

 Why isn't it done the other way around? This seems to be a one way street..

 History shows that the Ukrainians have suffered much more at the hands of the powers in Moscow than the russians suffered at the hands of Kyiv.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 07, 2009, 02:21:45 PM
Quote from: Ed
Gentlemen, please don't be too critical of Mirror. She is a product of Soviet indoctrination that started at age 3 as soon as kids go to day care. We were brainwashed from the very young age to think that there is only one truth and one version of history - communist history books. "Grandpa" Lenin was made into a "Jesus Christ" figure with representation of his image in practically every room of every building (either portrait or a statue). As soon as we turned 7 years old and went to school we were forced to become an "Oktyabrenok" and wear a little star with Lenin's image in the middle. The history we were taught was off course very one sided and designed to glorify the communist party. There was no internet or access to any other information/books from abroad other than what was approved by the communist party. We were taught that Soviet Union won the war and there was hardly any mention that other Western countries participated in the war against Germany. We were taught that the Soviet Army "liberated" the Baltic states, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. and that those peoples were "grateful" to get their "freedom" and were happy to be part of the Socialist block. When there was an uprising in Czech republic in the 60s the Soviet version was that a bunch of thugs tried to create a disturbance...

It is really difficult for a person to get a different perspective in that kind of atmosphere and brainwashing/indoctrination was unbelievable! Hence you have people like Mirror who "know what they know" think it's the only "truth" and even though they now have access to so much information and can get a different perspective on history, that old Soviet school of thought is so deeply ingrained in them that they are having a difficult time separating with it.

Luckily I escaped the USSR at a younger age and was exposed to different points of view early enough to realise a lot of this, but people like Mirror are kind of "stuck" in the time warp and unless they make a real effort to break down the walls of indoctrination ignorance they are going to continue to think that the version of history taught in Soviet schools was the only real "truth". and that the people of the Baltics shouldn't hate Russians for occupying them for so many years, but should be thankful to Russians for liberating them...
Yes, I do know that they do hate Russians for that, which is also missguided IMO. If any one is to blame that would be the Communist party elite which was made of many different ethnic groups.
I will repeat again that the worst communist leader who terrorised Russians alone with all other ethnic groups and nations was Stalin - a Georgian, who's ethnic background culturally was more similar to Saddam Husein's than it was Russian...

There is a lot of truth in this Ed and thanks for pointing it out again, it is not hard to understand why the likes of Mirror et al see the world as they do, but their stubborn relentless chanting of the party line mantra after so many years and despite the weight of information that is now freely available and for the most part giving a contra argument is what is most annoying to those of us who have alternative views.


Chris, as you I'm annoyed by them therefor I never bother to engage in a conversation with them since I know it's going to be nothing but a waste of time... If they don't have the capacity of opening their mind to new ideas and the need to learn there's nothing one can do to change that. Let them live in their own world the way they percieve it and the rest of us can live in our's  tiphat
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 02:26:14 PM
Chris, as you I'm annoyed by them therefor I never bother to engage in a conversation with them since I know it's going to be nothing but a waste of time... If they don't have the capacity of opening their mind to new ideas and the need to learn there's nothing one can do to change that. Let them live in their own world the way they percieve it and the rest of us can live in our's  tiphat

Good answer Eduard!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 07, 2009, 02:30:38 PM
Maybe 1 out of 50 that's truthful?

 Why isn't it done the other way around? This seems to be a one way street..

 History shows that the Ukrainians have suffered much more at the hands of the powers in Moscow than the russians suffered at the hands of Kyiv.


Altmike it is the other way as well, some of those Ukrainian women I have talked to are against the Russians in the same manner. And their comments are not very flattering to the Russians. Who is talking only one way. I keep saying it is both ways, not just a one way issue. Skiingandrunnng confirmed that as well.  The only difference is we do not have a Ukrainian women being vocal about it, at least not yet. And from what I saw some of our Ukrainian ladies seem quite capable of throwing back similar comments.    

The only thing that should matter to those with Ukrainian wives, is that you know who she is. If you cannot stand some comment made about her country , how are you going to survive those directed at you, from people you know, of a more personal attack.  If you figure out why it may not have the same impact as it does without it.  :nod:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2009, 02:34:38 PM
All I can remark on is what I've seen and heard personally and that's what I've relayed. Maybe we have a milder sort of women here for the most part?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 07, 2009, 02:53:45 PM

many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Actually my first hand knowledge is the opposite.  Very few if any have this venomous attitude towards russians. Very few russians have this same attitude towards UW.
 Most get along just fine.

????

I'm pretty sure you've not grasped my point - I'm sorry for not making it clearer..  - so I'll rephrase it.. Many Russians have an "attitude" that Ukrainians are "foxy", "crafty" ...  If you doubt what I say, you must surely detect it in some the responses of Mirror, WO and Anjutka.. although the strength of feeling is vastly different ;)

Recent spats re Georgia, and the Gas issue, Crimean Naval bases and many other issues keep the "pot boiling"..

The attitude of Ukrainians to Russians largely depends on their ethnic origins and their age.  But broadly speaking the further EAST you go, ( notable  exceptions being Odessa and Crimea) the more "Russian" the ladies feel  ..  The Party of Regions ( Pro Russian) has been  ( broadly speaking)   strongest in the East , Crimea and Odessa.


I see it more along the lines of the KKK and blacks, today.  The KKK doesn't represent the majority of whites  in the US. But they wish they did and they talk like they do. Much like the women here do.

Sorry, don't agree with this analogy :( ..    the RU v UA "thing" is FAR more prevalent than KKK like extremes of feelings  to blacks... well I HOPE so ! ;)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 07, 2009, 04:00:42 PM


BUT.. please try to listen to our points.. we aren't all married to Ukrainians -  many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Let's be honest.. the messes of Ukraine, Georgia are relics of times when Soviet leaders changed boundaries WITHIN the SSR - never realising the the SSR would break-up.. [ Stalin integrating Abkhazia with Georgia and Kruschev making Crimea part of Ukraine SSR, being prime examples..]



WHY DON'T YOU AND OTHERS LISTEN?????!!!!!!!

As you said it wasn't Russian leaders, it were Soviet leaders and among them there were Georgian leaders, Ukrainian leaders, Polish leaders, and many many Jewish leaders... Why RUSSIAN people only are blamed for all that mess as you called it?

In KKK and blacks analogy, who is KKK and who is black? Ukrainians have the same strong feelings about Russians, Orange revolution proves that. There were not fighting Russians in Russia, they were fighting Russians who live in Ukraine and have Ukrainian passports.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 07, 2009, 04:43:42 PM


BUT.. please try to listen to our points.. we aren't all married to Ukrainians -  many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Let's be honest.. the messes of Ukraine, Georgia are relics of times when Soviet leaders changed boundaries WITHIN the SSR - never realising the the SSR would break-up.. [ Stalin integrating Abkhazia with Georgia and Kruschev making Crimea part of Ukraine SSR, being prime examples..]



WHY DON'T YOU AND OTHERS LISTEN?????!!!!!!!

As you said it wasn't Russian leaders, it were Soviet leaders and among them there were Georgian leaders, Ukrainian leaders, Polish leaders, and many many Jewish leaders... Why RUSSIAN people only are blamed for all that mess as you called it?

I think most the men here know the difference, it's not just "blame Russia" There certainly must have been lots of Ukrainian party officials who contributed to the "mess".

Ukrainians have the same strong feelings about Russians, Orange revolution proves that. There were not fighting Russians in Russia, they were fighting Russians who live in Ukraine and have Ukrainian passports.

I don't think that's correct, they were protesting the outcome of the election, in which Yanukovich was seen as being a "tool" of Russia (right or wrong, that was the view) There are some Ukrainian nationalists who don't like Russia, but they are a very small minority.


You make some good points WO, so certainly the men here are interested in what you have to say. (At least the smart ones)

Just curious, have you ever lived in Ukraine? Or in an area with a large Ukrainian population?

I hope you don't mind my asking, as it helps to know whatkind of experience that people have if they are going to talk about Russia or Ukraine.

And the ladies certainly can do the same, if Moby or 2TallBill or any guy makes a statement "I think Russians...." or "Ukrainians think that.....", you can certainly ask him on what basis he makes that statement. If he only know through his wfe/GF, then it's only a very limited knowledge.

How many RW/UW have you talked to Mike? And how long in the USA?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 07, 2009, 05:29:28 PM

BUT.. please try to listen to our points.. we aren't all married to Ukrainians -  many UA women feel as Russian as you.

Let's be honest.. the messes of Ukraine, Georgia are relics of times when Soviet leaders changed boundaries WITHIN the SSR - never realising the the SSR would break-up.. [ Stalin integrating Abkhazia with Georgia and Kruschev making Crimea part of Ukraine SSR, being prime examples..]



WHY DON'T YOU AND OTHERS LISTEN?????!!!!!!!

As you said it wasn't Russian leaders, it were Soviet leaders and among them there were Georgian leaders, Ukrainian leaders, Polish leaders, and many many Jewish leaders... Why RUSSIAN people only are blamed for all that mess as you called it?


Dear WO.. I'm listening ... *YOU* are misunderstanding what I'm saying... and jumping to the wrong conclusions.. :( 


In KKK and blacks analogy, who is KKK and who is black? Ukrainians have the same strong feelings about Russians, Orange revolution proves that. There were not fighting Russians in Russia, they were fighting Russians who live in Ukraine and have Ukrainian passports.

As I said the KKK analogy was not "appropriate"

The O.R proved that most Ukrainians  - even ethnic Russian Ukrainian passport holders -  were saying ( then)   * "enough"* to corruption, outside "interference" ,  manipulation of the democratic voting process... and even attempts to poison the leading Presidential candidate  ..

The O.R. has brought about a very painful REAL Democratic evolution and the original O.R protagonists have split allowing the Party of Regions to become the biggest party.

Mrs T might even manage to unite enough ethnic Russian and Ukrainians to become the next President ;)



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 07, 2009, 06:27:44 PM

Dear WO.. I'm listening ... *YOU* are misunderstanding what I'm saying... and jumping to the wrong conclusions.. :( 



Yes, sure... I'm not capable of understanding, you are...  My English is bad that is why you can't understand me. What other silly reasons you can come up with? I have only one, you are male and talking to you is like  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: hemingway on September 07, 2009, 07:11:37 PM

Dear WO.. I'm listening ... *YOU* are misunderstanding what I'm saying... and jumping to the wrong conclusions.. :( 



Yes, sure... I'm not capable of understanding, you are...  My English is bad that is why you can't understand me. What other silly reasons you can come up with? I have only one, you are male and talking to you is like  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Being male isn't the issue with some of the guys on this thread. It is not normal for anyone to insist that the world believes as they do, and want to run of any differing opinions. As a guess, I'd say some form of personality disorder, maybe narcissistic. No normal human shouts people down like these guys.  :rolleye0009: :rolleye0009:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 07, 2009, 09:29:59 PM

BUT.. please try to listen to our points..


What to listen,kotik? That all Russian ladies-sh..it and Ukr - the best women in the world?

I know what every man in this forum thinks about Russians so what new can I expect from them except insults?   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 07, 2009, 09:49:50 PM
I agree with Fireeatter in some part that it is very understanbley to get insults from men who married Ukr women.They(men)  got their opinion about Russians from their wives so it is like Ukr ladies talk here so we can replace Chris,Akmike,Voyager, 2tallball's posts like posts from Ukr ladies but on fluent English.

Which opinion men will take from: Ukr women with whom they sleep or from somebody else?

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: WestCoast on September 07, 2009, 10:13:21 PM

BUT.. please try to listen to our points..


What to listen,kotik? That all Russian ladies-sh..it and Ukr - the best women in the world?

I know what every man in this forum thinks about Russians so what new can I expect from them except insults?   

Mirror isn't Moby's wife from Russia?  And what about our supreme Master Manny, isn't his wife from Russia?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 07, 2009, 10:14:47 PM
Mirror isn't Moby's wife from Russia?  And what about our supreme Master Manny, isn't his wife from Russia?

Moby just hates me personaly so everything what I write will be taken "in bayonets" and Manny is in a business. :nod:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: MND on September 07, 2009, 10:24:24 PM
I agree with Fireeatter in some part that it is very understanbley to get insults from men who married Ukr women.They(men)  got their opinion about Russians from their wives so it is like Ukr ladies talk here so we can replace Chris,Akmike,Voyager, 2tallball's posts like posts from Ukr ladies but on fluent English.

Which opinion men will take from: Ukr women with whom they sleep or from somebody else?



I am married to Ukrainian woman I have no problem with Russian women neither does my wife or any of our family overthere both in Russia and Ukraine.
But i will respond to any one that insults both Ukrainian and Russian women.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 07, 2009, 10:26:45 PM
Schastlivyj,

good for you,what can I say?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 12:12:04 AM

Yes, sure... I'm not capable of understanding, you are...  My English is bad that is why you can't understand me. What other silly reasons you can come up with? I have only one, you are male and talking to you is like  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

OK, please feel free to compound your mistake with stereotypical generalisations... 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 12:19:50 AM

OK, please feel free to compound your mistake with stereotypical generalisations... 

I think a generalisation runs before your personal opinion about somebody or something...don't you think?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 12:20:00 AM

BUT.. please try to listen to our points..


What to listen,kotik? That all Russian ladies-sh..it and Ukr - the best women in the world?

I know what every man in this forum thinks about Russians so what new can I expect from them except insults?   

SIGHS:
MY Wife is *Russian* ! .. I'll remind you that I'm questioning the "silliness" of labelling by nationality - especially if the national boundaries are recent and populations were mixed as a deliberate policy in the past..

Your "dislike/ distrust" of UA women is "funny" to me as they are so many women there who feel *Russian* !

IF you paid attention, you might even have noticed that I have advised searchers to look further than UA...but not for the reasons you suggest.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 12:22:23 AM

I think a generalisation runs before your personal opinion about somebody or something...don't you think?

No.. I'm STILL hoping you'd examine my reasoning instead of knee-jerk responses ! ;)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 12:23:04 AM

MY Wife is *Russian* ! .. I'll remind you that I'm questioning the "silliness" of labelling by nationality - especially if the national boundaries are recent and populations were mixed as a deliberate policy in the past..

Your "dislike/ distrust" of UA women is "funny" to me as they are so many women there who feel *Russian* !

IF you paid attention, you might even have noticed that I have advised searchers to look further than UA...but not for the reasons you suggest.


Yes,many Russians live there like many Russian army's veterans and personaly I feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 12:27:15 AM
I read what you write always but I remember your personal hostility towards me.

Say me that you like my virtual personality and maybe I will change my attitude to what you write. :smokin:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 12:34:31 AM

Being male isn't the issue with some of the guys on this thread. It is not normal for anyone to insist that the world believes as they do, and want to run of any differing opinions. As a guess, I'd say some form of personality disorder, maybe narcissistic. No normal human shouts people down like these guys.  :rolleye0009: :rolleye0009:

Hemingway!.. As you have "thrown your hat in the ring" -so to speak - please try to offer up YOUR opinion without the "psycho-analysis" .... 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 12:36:04 AM

Yes,many Russians live there like many Russian army's veterans and personaly I feel sorry for them.

WHY?... 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 12:36:52 AM
I read what you write always but I remember your personal hostility towards me.

Say me that you like my virtual personality and maybe I will change my attitude to what you write. :smokin:

...and this is addressed to ?...
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 12:38:08 AM
Hemingway!.. As you have "thrown your hat in the ring" -so to speak - please try to offer up YOUR opinion without the "psycho-analysis" .... 

I'd like to think that he will go to Russia to find the best woman in the world like you did and he will write his opinion  later.  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 12:38:38 AM
I read what you write always but I remember your personal hostility towards me.

Say me that you like my virtual personality and maybe I will change my attitude to what you write. :smokin:

...and this is addressed to ?...

...you.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 12:45:34 AM
From a letter what skiingandrunning was showing to us we could read  bad things about Russian girls-a fact but what I read from people (on other forum) who lives in the UK -English people begin to beat Ukrainians and Polishes on streets. It says louder than anything else from Ukr women's husbands posts here.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 08, 2009, 12:46:36 AM
blah-blah-blah...


I'm not capable of understanding, I'm making mistakes, you know it ALL only because you've read something on net  ::) What's new?

(http://www.4tnz.com/files/circlebikes_0.jpg)

(http://rlv.zcache.com/you_cant_understand_me_yet_im_the_stupid_one_tshirt-p235000810360558066qw9u_400.jpg)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: sparky114 on September 08, 2009, 12:55:22 AM
From a letter what skiingandrunning was showing to us we could read  bad things about Russian girls-a fact but what I read from people (on other forum) who lives in the UK -English people begin to beat Ukrainians and Polishes on streets. It says louder than anything else from Ukr women's husbands posts here.


Mirror do not believe all you read, there is no basis to this, we live in a highly multicultural society and every day somebody has a fight.

Most times the fights are between people from the same country in what we call "turf" wars in other words people looking for more power over their fellow country men.

The eastern countries seem to be at this more at the moment here with romanians fighting and the new Bulgarians looking to gain there share of the action.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 01:07:03 AM
I'd like to think that he will go to Russia to find the best woman in the world like you did and he will write his opinion  later.  

It's just that some of us don't make a distinction on "best" based on what passport one has.. especially when the folk were part of one nation -until recently.

The fact I married a Russian is about HER - NOT her nationality / location ... I was looking in the FSU and not making decisions based on borders created by the break up of the SSR.. ;)

I read what you write always but I remember your personal hostility towards me.

Say me that you like my virtual personality and maybe I will change my attitude to what you write.

:))  I don't dislike you, Mirror ( or anyone having a differing opinion)  - I have no personal "feelings" other than disagreeing with ANY folk who believe in negative stereotyping ! .. That could be re Muslims, or "negative" aspects of UW.. ..

I just learnt - having grown up in a country where being the wrong religion could cost your life - that most  ethnic / religious/ national  stereotypical generalisations are borne of ignorance.



  



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 01:12:21 AM
From a letter what skiingandrunning was showing to us we could read  bad things about Russian girls-a fact but what I read from people (on other forum) who lives in the UK -English people begin to beat Ukrainians and Polishes on streets. It says louder than anything else from Ukr women's husbands posts here.

Oh Yes.. my Wife and step-son are frightened to walk the streets for fear of someone thinking they are from one of these nations....


NOT...


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 01:16:42 AM

I'm not capable of understanding, I'm making mistakes, you know it ALL only because you've read something on net  ::) What's new?

1/ "internet learning".. hmmm - shows how much you pay attention to my posts.. I refer you to my response to Ed upthread.. !

2/ Thanks for demonstrating that you are selective in what you read..and you HAVE misunderstood..





Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Chris on September 08, 2009, 01:21:04 AM
I agree with Fireeatter in some part that it is very understanbley to get insults from men who married Ukr women.They(men)  got their opinion about Russians from their wives so it is like Ukr ladies talk here so we can replace Chris,Akmike,Voyager, 2tallball's posts like posts from Ukr ladies but on fluent English.

Which opinion men will take from: Ukr women with whom they sleep or from somebody else?



I am married to Ukrainian woman I have no problem with Russian women neither does my wife or any of our family overthere both in Russia and Ukraine.
But i will respond to any one that insults both Ukrainian and Russian women.

Well said Mark and ditto from me too, in fact I have not made any comments about RW on this thread only to say some not all but some RW will never change their views.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 08, 2009, 01:28:27 AM


1/ "internet learning".. hmmm - shows how much you pay attention to my posts.. I refer you to my response to Ed upthread.. !

2/ Thanks for demonstrating that you are selective in what you read..and you HAVE misunderstood..

as you wish -  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 01:34:21 AM


1/ "internet learning".. hmmm - shows how much you pay attention to my posts.. I refer you to my response to Ed upthread.. !

2/ Thanks for demonstrating that you are selective in what you read..and you HAVE misunderstood..

as you wish -  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

:)))  Still can't / won't READ then?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: workedforme on September 08, 2009, 07:08:51 AM
This is definately an interesting discussion. This has prompted me to ask my wife about her opinions relating to this topic.

My wife's views are similiar to mirror's but not quite as strong. She says 50/50 as to how many Ukrainian women she feels are bad. She made a statement I have to agree with. She says a UW will marry any man of any age. I feel she takes this as an insult to all FSU women. We personally know 2 couples with a 40 year age gap(UW). Kindda like sitting in the stands wondering when they will explode. Most of the FSU women my wife knows are from the Ukraine. She is quite amicable with them.

As pertaining to my wife's comment....How many Russian Women here or do you know that are married to a much older man? I would wager the large age gap marriages are 5 to 1 with the UW being the leaders!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on September 08, 2009, 07:20:39 AM
Part of this problem is how do you define a Ukrainian.

Living in Ukraine? Not enough in my opinion.
Born in Ukraine? Again, not enough.
Russian born, but Raised as ukrainian? yes.

My GF is definatly Russian, but she lived in Ukraine (Crimea). I wager that goes for almost all of Crimea's citizens.

I would even go so far, as to say only the western part of Ukraine (roughly from Kiev/uman to Lvov) are truly Ukrainians.

Mark.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 09:14:56 AM
Part of this problem is how do you define a Ukrainian.

Living in Ukraine? Not enough in my opinion.
Born in Ukraine? Again, not enough.
Russian born, but Raised as ukrainian? yes.

My GF is definatly Russian, but she lived in Ukraine (Crimea). I wager that goes for almost all of Crimea's citizens.

I would even go so far, as to say only the western part of Ukraine (roughly from Kiev/uman to Lvov) are truly Ukrainians.

Mark.


It would be great if some of the ethnic Russian wives would post their feelings on this subject.. Tried to persuade "wifey", but she doesn't see the point of trying to "persuade" folk who don't want to listen.. whom she will never meet !
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 08, 2009, 09:45:52 AM
they don't call them a "better half" for nothing! :chuckle:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 10:18:17 AM
they don't call them a "better half" for nothing! :chuckle:

Oh, I COULDN'T agree more, Ed..

Funnily enough she would like to meet you ? !! ..... ;)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 10:38:25 AM
She made a statement I have to agree with. She says a UW will marry any man of any age.

and HOW the heck does a lady from Siberia know that ! ? ;) ...


I feel she takes this as an insult to all FSU women. We personally know 2 couples with a 40 year age gap(UW). Kindda like sitting in the stands wondering when they will explode. Most of the FSU women my wife knows are from the Ukraine. She is quite amicable with them.

Well, there's all but 10 years between us, and 2 other RW and WM and far less or near Equal between one RW/WM and the remaining the UA WM we know.. I certainly wouldn't try to make that a statistic on which to base "UW are more likely to marry with a big age gap" ..

My wife know of one RW from her Siberian city who went to the USA to marry a US citizen who was 20 yrs older and she left him to marry a guy 35 years older :o

As pertaining to my wife's comment....How many Russian Women here or do you know that are married to a much older man? I would wager the large age gap marriages are 5 to 1 with the UW being the leaders!

Hmm... *another* highly subjective myth, I reckon...

I'd take you up on that wager.. if there was only a way to prove / disprove it..
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 08, 2009, 10:44:33 AM
Everyone knows you can't have a good scrap around here without an age
gap reference.  ;D 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 08, 2009, 12:21:34 PM
they don't call them a "better half" for nothing! :chuckle:

Oh, I COULDN'T agree more, Ed..

Funnily enough she would like to meet you ? !! ..... ;)
can you blame her, Mark???  ;D
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: workedforme on September 08, 2009, 12:51:28 PM
 :chuckle: :laugh: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I see you are taking my post like I think they are facts. I did not state they are facts but was expressing something I suspect could be true and do hold true for the couples we have met.

How could my wife know being from Siberia? Well...this has been our experience from the people we have met. I suppose that opinion began to develope when we went onto Kiev after meeting in Moscow on a global ladies tour.(Yes I went on the tour but my aggenda was to meet my wife). While in Kiev the only woman we saw with the group older than their late 20's was a lady a man had done the same thing I did....went on the tour to meet this lady. I was probably the youngest guy in the group @44. She was appalled at all the young 20 somin YO girls hanging all over this group on mainly 50-60 YO's!

We have met quite a few couples in the 5+ years she has been in the states and that is why I suspect this maybe true!


She made a statement I have to agree with. She says a UW will marry any man of any age.

and HOW the heck does a lady from Siberia know that ! ? ;) ...


I feel she takes this as an insult to all FSU women. We personally know 2 couples with a 40 year age gap(UW). Kindda like sitting in the stands wondering when they will explode. Most of the FSU women my wife knows are from the Ukraine. She is quite amicable with them.

Well, there's all but 10 years between us, and 2 other RW and WM and far less or near Equal between one RW/WM and the remaining the UA WM we know.. I certainly wouldn't try to make that a statistic on which to base "UW are more likely to marry with a big age gap" ..

My wife know of one RW from her Siberian city who went to the USA to marry a US citizen who was 20 yrs older and she left him to marry a guy 35 years older :o

As pertaining to my wife's comment....How many Russian Women here or do you know that are married to a much older man? I would wager the large age gap marriages are 5 to 1 with the UW being the leaders!

Hmm... *another* highly subjective myth, I reckon...

I'd take you up on that wager.. if there was only a way to prove / disprove it..
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: workedforme on September 08, 2009, 01:06:13 PM
Damn! I've opened Pandora's Box! My wife is really goin at it now. She's telling me about several girls at her agency that were approached by older guys. They would always be quick to tell that UW have no problem with a big age gap.

The only RW we met here with a big age gap didn't stay with the guy. He even offered to allow her to stay until she could be a legal resident. She hauled ass back home. This dude was a multi-millionaire BTW!

My wife also had several opportunities to marry an older man...I think 2 were 15 years older. They both were well off as well. I think my wife had quite alot of experience. She was in the agency scene for 5 years when we met. I had 1 guy tell me I got the girl no one else could get.  ;D
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 08, 2009, 03:29:44 PM
can you blame her, Mark???  ;D

Absolutely NOT.. ;)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Irinka on September 08, 2009, 09:26:51 PM
This is definately an interesting discussion. This has prompted me to ask my wife about her opinions relating to this topic.

My wife's views are similiar to mirror's but not quite as strong. She says 50/50 as to how many Ukrainian women she feels are bad. She made a statement I have to agree with. She says a UW will marry any man of any age. I feel she takes this as an insult to all FSU women. We personally know 2 couples with a 40 year age gap(UW). Kindda like sitting in the stands wondering when they will explode. Most of the FSU women my wife knows are from the Ukraine. She is quite amicable with them.

As pertaining to my wife's comment....How many Russian Women here or do you know that are married to a much older man? I would wager the large age gap marriages are 5 to 1 with the UW being the leaders!

Many answers on this theme

How your wife know about Ukraine peoples, she from Sibir?

She live before in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Irinka on September 08, 2009, 09:29:49 PM
Part of this problem is how do you define a Ukrainian.

Living in Ukraine? Not enough in my opinion.
Born in Ukraine? Again, not enough.
Russian born, but Raised as ukrainian? yes.

My GF is definatly Russian, but she lived in Ukraine (Crimea). I wager that goes for almost all of Crimea's citizens.

I would even go so far, as to say only the western part of Ukraine (roughly from Kiev/uman to Lvov) are truly Ukrainians.

Mark.


What is other peoples in Ukraine?

Not Russian family but only Ukraine born?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 08, 2009, 09:31:13 PM
Irinka,

who are you: Ukr or Russian?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Irinka on September 08, 2009, 09:46:38 PM
Ukrainian.

Mother parents lived Ukraine.

Father born Ukraine. Grandmother come from Russia

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 08, 2009, 10:01:19 PM
where's Rodney King when we need him most?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Irinka on September 09, 2009, 12:39:23 AM
where's Rodney King when we need him most?

Who this is?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 09, 2009, 12:57:03 AM
:chuckle: :laugh: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I see you are taking my post like I think they are facts. I did not state they are facts but was expressing something I suspect could be true and do hold true for the couples we have met.

How could my wife know being from Siberia? Well...this has been our experience from the people we have met. I suppose that opinion began to develope when we went onto Kiev after meeting in Moscow on a global ladies tour.(Yes I went on the tour but my aggenda was to meet my wife). While in Kiev the only woman we saw with the group older than their late 20's was a lady a man had done the same thing I did....went on the tour to meet this lady. I was probably the youngest guy in the group @44. She was appalled at all the young 20 somin YO girls hanging all over this group on mainly 50-60 YO's!

Were you on a tour in Moscow or Kiev? Or both?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on September 09, 2009, 01:42:18 AM

It would be great if some of the ethnic Russian wives would post their feelings on this subject.. Tried to persuade "wifey", but she doesn't see the point of trying to "persuade" folk who don't want to listen.. whom she will never meet !

My GF had her own account on this forum, but she decided to quit because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere. Even though she consideres herself 100% russian.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on September 09, 2009, 01:49:58 AM
Part of this problem is how do you define a Ukrainian.

Living in Ukraine? Not enough in my opinion.
Born in Ukraine? Again, not enough.
Russian born, but Raised as ukrainian? yes.

My GF is definatly Russian, but she lived in Ukraine (Crimea). I wager that goes for almost all of Crimea's citizens.

I would even go so far, as to say only the western part of Ukraine (roughly from Kiev/uman to Lvov) are truly Ukrainians.

Mark.


What is other peoples in Ukraine?

Not Russian family but only Ukraine born?

If your parents are living in Ukraine and are ethnic Ukrainian, I believe any children will be Ukrainian too.

Problem with Ukraine is, that many Russians are living in Ukraine before the USSR broke up, and they are ethnic Russians. Those people get to choose wether to raise their children as Russian or Ukrainian. My girlfriend was raised as Russian.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 09, 2009, 02:25:59 AM


It would be great if some of the ethnic Russian wives would post their feelings on this subject..

My GF had her own account on this forum, but she decided to quit because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere. Even though she consideres herself 100% russian.

 
They don't like criticism of  Russia OR Ukraine
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: workedforme on September 09, 2009, 06:01:42 AM
:chuckle: :laugh: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I see you are taking my post like I think they are facts. I did not state they are facts but was expressing something I suspect could be true and do hold true for the couples we have met.

How could my wife know being from Siberia? Well...this has been our experience from the people we have met. I suppose that opinion began to develope when we went onto Kiev after meeting in Moscow on a global ladies tour.(Yes I went on the tour but my aggenda was to meet my wife). While in Kiev the only woman we saw with the group older than their late 20's was a lady a man had done the same thing I did....went on the tour to meet this lady. I was probably the youngest guy in the group @44. She was appalled at all the young 20 somin YO girls hanging all over this group on mainly 50-60 YO's!

Were you on a tour in Moscow or Kiev? Or both?

Both, My wife and I had decided that if all went well when we met in Moscow we would go on the Kiev and strike out on our own(which we did!).
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: froid on September 09, 2009, 07:41:06 AM
Hmmm....this discussion has got me to wondering now...

What the hell am I?

I was born in Toronto.
Mom is from Newfoundland in Canada.
Her side traces back to Irish heritage in the distant past.
Dad was born in Sweden, but his mother was Finnish and his dad Estonian.  
But my great grandmother on my dad's side spoke Russian and spent many years in St Petersburg before moving to Finland.  

So I am a Canadian Finnish Newfie with a Irish Scandinavian Russian background.

I still love how some of Mila's cooking matches exactly my grandmothers recipes.  She learned them from her Russian speaking mom. :)

In the end the ethnic background is mostly going to come from the home and the parents, no matter where you live.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 09, 2009, 07:51:00 AM
Hmmm....this discussion has got me to wondering now...

What the hell am I?


What do yo think about yourself? I think you get yourself like Canadian.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: froid on September 09, 2009, 08:03:27 AM
Very true Mirror.  I AM Canadian first and list the others in their order of influences in myself.

But Canada would be different because it is a mix of cultures and influences and is mostly based on English culture where I am from and grew up.  

But that doesn't mean that I have ignored my background.  I have kept many things from my family's background as parts of me.  All the good important things I kept.  Anything that was not as important or was a negative thing, has been left behind.  

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Link on September 09, 2009, 08:52:51 AM
I AM Canadian first and list the others in their order of influences in myself.


Good point Froid. I am in a similar situation regarding my ethnic background (non Mexican and influenced by more than one nationality) although for practical  purposes I do consider myself Mexican first despite having no real roots in Mexico and have lived for some time outside the country in differents locations around the world. I am Mexican because I am from and grew in the Spanish culture and enviroment of the country, not necessarily for having a feeling of belonging to the land. However as you I do tried to kept all the good things from my background with me and the negative traits I've tried to reduce or eliminate them.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 09, 2009, 10:15:26 AM
where's Rodney King when we need him most?

Who this is?

Rodney King said a semi famous phrase "Why can't we all just get along?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King

Udachi !


Bill
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 11, 2009, 06:47:08 AM

My GF had her own account on this forum, but she decided to quit because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere.

 I thought she left for absolutely different reason,  that she couldn't get along with any other women, doesn't matter Russian or Ukrainian. So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about? Pulling donkey by it's ears?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 11, 2009, 09:00:26 AM
So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about?

This CAN'T be a serious question, WO... Do check the title thread.. I can WELL understand why some UW might be "peeved" - especially ones. like Markje lady who would protest she IS Russian except for her passport..
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 11, 2009, 09:28:53 AM
So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about?

This CAN'T be a serious question, WO... Do check the title thread.. I can WELL understand why some UW might be "peeved" - especially ones. like Markje lady who would protest she IS Russian except for her passport..

WO question is valid.

There is no Anti- Ukrainian Atmosphere here. Only a discussion, why friction exists between the two. If Marke's comment is valid then you could also say there is an Anti Russian Atmosphere by other members here, who disagree that it does in fact exist, or do not like the idea some women, may not like the country that she has been found in.  8)   

     
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on September 11, 2009, 10:13:16 AM
So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about?

This CAN'T be a serious question, WO... Do check the title thread.. I can WELL understand why some UW might be "peeved" - especially ones. like Markje lady who would protest she IS Russian except for her passport..

WO question is valid.

There is no Anti- Ukrainian Atmosphere here. Only a discussion, why friction exists between the two. If Marke's comment is valid then you could also say there is an Anti Russian Atmosphere by other members here, who disagree that it does in fact exist, or do not like the idea some women, may not like the country that she has been found in.  8)   

     

Management tries very hard to keep it under the rug, but truth is some women are very strongly opposed to Ukraine, its people and downright insulting at times.

I am not going to go back to this discussion, i would suggest you read up on this forums older threads.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Markje on September 11, 2009, 10:17:12 AM

My GF had her own account on this forum, but she decided to quit because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere.

 I thought she left for absolutely different reason,  that she couldn't get along with any other women, doesn't matter Russian or Ukrainian. So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about? Pulling donkey by it's ears?

She could not get along that is true, but the main reason that sparked that response was that she felt unwelcome because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere.



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 11, 2009, 10:33:37 AM
So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about?

This CAN'T be a serious question, WO... Do check the title thread.. I can WELL understand why some UW might be "peeved" - especially ones. like Markje lady who would protest she IS Russian except for her passport..

WO question is valid.

There is no Anti- Ukrainian Atmosphere here. Only a discussion, why friction exists between the two. If Marke's comment is valid then you could also say there is an Anti Russian Atmosphere by other members here, who disagree that it does in fact exist, or do not like the idea some women, may not like the country that she has been found in.  8)   

     

Management tries very hard to keep it under the rug, but truth is some women are very strongly opposed to Ukraine, its people and downright insulting at times.

I am not going to go back to this discussion, i would suggest you read up on this forums older threads.



For those threads you refer to I was here at the time, as well as Lena's replies back. Not to mention some of the insulting comments returned by some members. For that it was not a one way street. So I would say none involved in most cases, have little to be proud of  :nod: This thread has also shown the opposite is also true. People should just recognize it exists, and move on. Focus on what is important, rather then what you cannot change.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 16, 2009, 10:09:26 AM
Of course I am jealous of Ukr women they being prost., having radiation,
being traitors, even having Holodomor (2Tallball,you forgot to remind it ) .
Bravo,2tallball,you got to the core me. :chuckle:


Considering that I've seen far more prostitutes in Russia than Ukraine and been solicited only when in Russia, then going by numbers then it's really Russian women who are prostitutes, not Ukraine.  Of course I would never make such a generalization like mirror would.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 16, 2009, 10:33:49 AM

BUT.. please try to listen to our points..


What to listen,kotik? That all Russian ladies-sh..it and Ukr - the best women in the world?

I know what every man in this forum thinks about Russians so what new can I expect from them except insults?   

So now you're omniscient (all knowing)?  Again wrong.  I have nothing against Russians, my ex wife is a Muscovite, and I have Russian friends both at work and from the 5 years I was married to my ex.  You hear insults because to you any opinion supporting Ukrainians or favoring them is an insult to a Russian. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 16, 2009, 10:37:35 AM

My GF had her own account on this forum, but she decided to quit because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere.

 I thought she left for absolutely different reason,  that she couldn't get along with any other women, doesn't matter Russian or Ukrainian. So what anti-ukrainian atmosphere are you talking about? Pulling donkey by it's ears?


 
She could not get along that is true, but the main reason that sparked that response was that she felt unwelcome because of the anti-ukrainian atmosphere.





   real russian person from any fsu country will never feel that anti-ukrainian atmosphere which    in fact not exists :nod:as i understand -she real russian,so  the reason -not like she told you)))).... :popcorn:...
  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Brasscasing on September 16, 2009, 08:36:29 PM
Supra, Mirror enough. The topic is 'Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?' not 'Let's insult the crap out of each other'. If you two want a go at each other take it to the Off Top. I'm going to remove these last five or so posts.
Edit: 3 posts removed personal attacks.

Brass
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 17, 2009, 05:07:05 AM
Supra, Mirror enough.

I didn't read what  "SUPER" wrote to Mirror but I can guess if Brass removed his posts.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 17, 2009, 06:09:18 AM
Supra, Mirror enough.

I didn't read what  "SUPER" wrote to Mirror but I can guess if Brass removed his posts.



It goes both ways.  Your post was removed as well.  Why don't we stay on topic instead of insults Mirror?  So far I have not seen any logical arguments for my refutation of your posts.  You say people here don't like Russians, yet I've disputed that and you have no answer for that.  You say that Ukraine is full of prostitutes yet I've seen far, far more prostitutes in Moscow than I've seen in 6 cities I've visited in Ukraine yet no rational response to that either.  Insults are the last resort of someone who has lost an argument or cannot come up with reasoned rational intelligent discourse and argument.   

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: workedforme on September 17, 2009, 06:58:42 AM
Wow! I can't say whether there were more prostitutes in Moscow or Kiev. I  do know that the prostitutes were very visible in the hotel in Moscow. Didn't see any in the hotel in Kiev. I do know several of the guys met girls at the socials in Kiev I didn't attend. Were dating them, and later found them hooking in a nightclub! Super, perhaps you just didn't know where to find the hookers in Kiev.

Edit: My wife just informed me there were hookers at our hotel in Kiev. Perhaps they were just not as aggressive as they were in Moscow because I didn't notice them. In Moscow you almost had to beat them away with a stick. I got so tired of them comming up to me and asking "sex and a massage"! The only English they could speak! Also the phone call asking the same 5 minutes after you entered your room!

Supra, Mirror enough.

I didn't read what  "SUPER" wrote to Mirror but I can guess if Brass removed his posts.



It goes both ways.  Your post was removed as well.  Why don't we stay on topic instead of insults Mirror?  So far I have not seen any logical arguments for my refutation of your posts.  You say people here don't like Russians, yet I've disputed that and you have no answer for that.  You say that Ukraine is full of prostitutes yet I've seen far, far more prostitutes in Moscow than I've seen in 6 cities I've visited in Ukraine yet no rational response to that either.  Insults are the last resort of someone who has lost an argument or cannot come up with reasoned rational intelligent discourse and argument.  


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 17, 2009, 08:12:35 AM
Wow! I can't say whether there were more prostitutes in Moscow or Kiev. I  do know that the prostitutes were very visible in the hotel in Moscow. Didn't see any in the hotel in Kiev. I do know several of the guys met girls at the socials in Kiev I didn't attend. Were dating them, and later found them hooking in a nightclub! Super, perhaps you just didn't know where to find the hookers in Kiev.Supra, Mirror enough.
For the sake of accuracy: I've heard that there is a very large percentage of Ukrainian prostitutes among the prostitutes working in Moscow and other Russian cities, actually I was told that women from Ukraine and Moldova were the majority of the professionals in Moscow. But I don't know first hand so if any one has the exact stats on that would be interesting to find out the real deal.

Also would be interesting to find out who is putting up the socials and invites prostitutes to date their clients in Kiev? This doesn't surprise me what so ever, but would be interesting to get the first hand experience and some details.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 17, 2009, 08:44:38 AM
Wow! I can't say whether there were more prostitutes in Moscow or Kiev. I  do know that the prostitutes were very visible in the hotel in Moscow. Didn't see any in the hotel in Kiev. I do know several of the guys met girls at the socials in Kiev I didn't attend. Were dating them, and later found them hooking in a nightclub! Super, perhaps you just didn't know where to find the hookers in Kiev.Supra, Mirror enough.
For the sake of accuracy: I've heard that there is a very large percentage of Ukrainian prostitutes among the prostitutes working in Moscow and other Russian cities, actually I was told that women from Ukraine and Moldova were the majority of the professionals in Moscow. But I don't know first hand so if any one has the exact stats on that would be interesting to find out the real deal.

Also would be interesting to find out who is putting up the socials and invites prostitutes to date their clients in Kiev? This doesn't surprise me what so ever, but would be interesting to get the first hand experience and some details.

Thanks Eduard....but assuming a large percentage still means that a percentage of them are Russian, which again contradicts mirror's assertion that Ukraine is the land of prostitutes. I'd say, from personal, real observation and talking to people from both countries that it is a problem in both countries.  Neither has a lock on it.  So for mirror to accuse Ukraine as being full of prostitutes she should look in the mirror LOL, it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 17, 2009, 08:49:47 AM
Wow! I can't say whether there were more prostitutes in Moscow or Kiev. I  do know that the prostitutes were very visible in the hotel in Moscow. Didn't see any in the hotel in Kiev. I do know several of the guys met girls at the socials in Kiev I didn't attend. Were dating them, and later found them hooking in a nightclub! Super, perhaps you just didn't know where to find the hookers in Kiev.Supra, Mirror enough.
For the sake of accuracy: I've heard that there is a very large percentage of Ukrainian prostitutes among the prostitutes working in Moscow and other Russian cities, actually I was told that women from Ukraine and Moldova were the majority of the professionals in Moscow. But I don't know first hand so if any one has the exact stats on that would be interesting to find out the real deal.

Also would be interesting to find out who is putting up the socials and invites prostitutes to date their clients in Kiev? This doesn't surprise me what so ever, but would be interesting to get the first hand experience and some details.

Thanks Eduard....but assuming a large percentage still means that a percentage of them are Russian, which again contradicts mirror's assertion that Ukraine is the land of prostitutes. I'd say, from personal, real observation and talking to people from both countries that it is a problem in both countries.  Neither has a lock on it.  So for mirror to accuse Ukraine as being full of prostitutes she should look in the mirror LOL, it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
believe me, I find Mirror's views pretty offensive myself.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 17, 2009, 09:10:23 AM
Wow! I can't say whether there were more prostitutes in Moscow or Kiev. I  do know that the prostitutes were very visible in the hotel in Moscow. Didn't see any in the hotel in Kiev. I do know several of the guys met girls at the socials in Kiev I didn't attend. Were dating them, and later found them hooking in a nightclub! Super, perhaps you just didn't know where to find the hookers in Kiev.Supra, Mirror enough.
For the sake of accuracy: I've heard that there is a very large percentage of Ukrainian prostitutes among the prostitutes working in Moscow and other Russian cities, actually I was told that women from Ukraine and Moldova were the majority of the professionals in Moscow. But I don't know first hand so if any one has the exact stats on that would be interesting to find out the real deal.

Also would be interesting to find out who is putting up the socials and invites prostitutes to date their clients in Kiev? This doesn't surprise me what so ever, but would be interesting to get the first hand experience and some details.

Thanks Eduard....but assuming a large percentage still means that a percentage of them are Russian, which again contradicts mirror's assertion that Ukraine is the land of prostitutes. I'd say, from personal, real observation and talking to people from both countries that it is a problem in both countries.  Neither has a lock on it.  So for mirror to accuse Ukraine as being full of prostitutes she should look in the mirror LOL, it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
believe me, I find Mirror's views pretty offensive myself.
Mirror's views would not be so bad if she substantiated what she says with facts and supporting evidence - instead she promulgates pure prejudicial and ignorant opinions and tries to pass them off as fact.  I find it typical that many Russian's don't like Ukranians - hence this thread - I think a some of it some of it (besides history) may even be jealousy - the fact that Ukraine may very well become part of the EU one day, that Ukraine is currently more accepted in the West than Russia, etc.  Some of the best talent I've seen in the big financial companies I work in are Ukrainian these days and less so Russians (which is not a slight against Russia but more indicative that it seems that it is easier for Ukrainians to get visa's to the US for work meaning that the West is opening welcome arms to them moreso than Russians).  It's common for people who are jealous of others to put them down to make themselves feel superior.  Disclaimer - this is speculation on my part, it is not substantiated with sufficient proof to make any conclusions.

I can say that in my observation Ukrainians have been more open and friendly than Russians especially those with money.  One of my good Ukrainian friends who lives in Kiev has a family business I had no idea was making millions of dollars a year until recently.  His family welcomes me with open arms and insists I stay at their mansion in Crimea all the time, their grandparents insist that when my wife and I have children that we *must* bring them to visit, etc.  Maybe part of the jealousy is because they resent their "warmer" and more "friendly" neighbors.  Again speculation on my part, not substantiated by significant fact.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 17, 2009, 09:56:15 AM
Supranatural,
although there are cultural differences between Russia and Ukraine I don't feel that they are that huge. I can assure you that you can find a similar family in Russia that will accept you as best friend with open arms, invite you to their home every time you are visiting their country, etc. etc. In that way Russians and Ukrainians are very similar.
I will agree that people in Ukraine seem a little more warm and open, but on the other hand I found that many times they don't mean what they say and generally "a word" or a "promise" doesn't mean as much in Ukraine in my experience. Yes it's a generalisation but we are talking generalities here, aren't we? :biggrin:
I like Ukrainian sense of humor and Odessa is famous for producing some of the best FSU comedians (some of the most famous and popular are Jews and not ethnic Ukrainians by the way).

Again I will emphasize that when I talk about Russia or Ukraine I am talking about the place and not a specific ethnic group. I think it is silly and ignorant to attribute a trait of Character to a group that has been mixed with so many other ethnic groups and living alone side with others, mixing with each other, learning from each other and basically sharing the common culture of the PLACE.
I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.
That's just my personal observations based on being from a very mixed ethnic background myself and having family and friends in both Russia and Ukraine, travelling to and staying at both places since my early childhood.

In other words "I'm not prejudice, I am convinced!"
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: alenika on September 17, 2009, 11:12:36 AM
I find it typical that many Russian's don't like Ukranians - hence this thread
I don't find this typical. It's only this forum where there are anti-Ukrainian messages.

On another forum sometimes happen national fights (I remember 2-3 of them during 4 years I am there), more often it is anti-Russian messages by Ukrainians. But generally girls there don't care about each other nationalities - Russians and Ukrainians take part in discussions and support or argue different opinions in spite of their naitonalities.

I am Russian but should admit that have no hard feelings towards Ukrainians. I can notice some differences in general, but I don't see them as something negative. And of course, I wouldn't apply any generalisations to either Ukrainian or Russian I meet and would communicate with them according their personality, not nationality.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: alenika on September 17, 2009, 11:20:39 AM
I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.
It's very difficult to see difference between materialistic and down-to-earth. Are you sure you see it? Or that every man sees it the same way? Down-to-earth is a positive quality actually.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 17, 2009, 12:05:22 PM

For the sake of accuracy:
..one would assume Ed will back that up with a reliable source...

I've heard
THAT'S IT ?!! You've "heard"..
that there is a very large percentage of Ukrainian prostitutes among the prostitutes working in Moscow and other Russian cities, actually I was told that women from Ukraine and Moldova were the majority of the professionals in Moscow. But I don't know first hand so if any one has the exact stats on that would be interesting to find out the real deal.

So this is really an Ed, "opinion", AGAIN and based on "hearsay" ? ... ;)


Quote from: Eduard
Again I will emphasize that when I talk about Russia or Ukraine I am talking about the place and not a specific ethnic group.

Then you go on to generalise about "genuineness" and "avarice" of Ukrainians !!


May I remind you for the UMPTEENTH time - so don't try to dodge it.. that Ukraine is a relatively "new" nation - made up of many folk who still think they ARE Russian and who were moved there by a Soviet Government who deliberately mixed up / diluted ethnicities..

MOST of the guys we read of here visit EASTERN Ukraine or the Crimea or Odessa or Kiev.. areas with a MUCH higher or maj . ethnic Russian population.

Ed, your opinions are nearly as baseless ( in fact)  as Mirrors .. AND you contradict yourself...

Let's face it, PLEASE .. there is a LOT of prejudice - most of it unwarranted - and a HECK of a lot of it is current and can be seen when  watching Russian TV..

I wasn't born in Russia / Ukraine.. nor am I a Russian/Ukrainian speaker , but I was frequently in Russia and Ukraine during the run up to the Orange Revolution and I was dating a Russian lady(living in UA ) who was acting head of the largest "independent"  News Agency... owned by a Russian national !

I saw first hand some of the "games" being played out and the Political pressures that were played out..

Sorry, Ed, but to claim Ukrainians are less "genuine"... after watching Russia interfere BIG time in UA politics.. which brought about the OR is just plain silly ...










Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 18, 2009, 05:22:53 AM
I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.
It's very difficult to see difference between materialistic and down-to-earth. Are you sure you see it? Or that every man sees it the same way? Down-to-earth is a positive quality actually.

I can speak only for myself and I saw it plain and clear. For example it was very annoying, when UW told me again and again "her husband is very rich".. I don't care! He is not my husband! Another one was talking about money non-stop, how much she sends to Ukraine to her gown up nephew and how little her husband a pensioner provides for her. I've just met her, and I wasn't interested in her financial situation what so ever, but she was loading me with her money issues up to my eye-balls.  ::)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 05:46:45 AM


I can speak only for myself and I saw it plain and clear. For example it was very annoying, when UW told me again and again "her husband is very rich".. I don't care! He is not my husband! Another one was talking about money non-stop, how much she sends to Ukraine to her gown up nephew and how little her husband a pensioner provides for her. I've just met her, and I wasn't interested in her financial situation what so ever, but she was loading me with her money issues up to my eye-balls.  ::)

And interestingly enough since I've been with both RW and UW, when I was with my ex-RW wife her Russian friends were forever sniping at each other, bragging about how much money they had or their husband had.  With my UW friends, I almost never see this.  As I said, one of the friends I have in Kiev, whom I've know for 2 years now, never mentioned how much money his family made until I found out quite by accident one day and saw for myself - they have houses that cost millions but never advertise it to anyone.  My wife's family also has a lot of money but they never advertise it either.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: workedforme on September 18, 2009, 06:08:17 AM
I do find that on average, be it Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Ukraine are more materialistic than Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, Greeks or Germans born and raised in Russia.
It's very difficult to see difference between materialistic and down-to-earth. Are you sure you see it? Or that every man sees it the same way? Down-to-earth is a positive quality actually.

I can speak only for myself and I saw it plain and clear. For example it was very annoying, when UW told me again and again "her husband is very rich".. I don't care! He is not my husband! Another one was talking about money non-stop, how much she sends to Ukraine to her gown up nephew and how little her husband a pensioner provides for her. I've just met her, and I wasn't interested in her financial situation what so ever, but she was loading me with her money issues up to my eye-balls.  ::)

I guess everyones experiences are different. The worst we have experienced in the bragging,gloating, one upping department has been hands down women from Belarus!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 18, 2009, 07:05:51 AM
Here we go again.SUPRA jumps from his trousers by trying to prove what doesn't exist.

A subject about Ukr were discussed some time ago and Paul even asked an opinion on a female forum and got an answer what RW think about Ukr girls.

Supra can jump from his trousers again and again ,so what?  :smokin:

In my opinion or he doesn't know whom he talk about or he is not honest.



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 07:25:55 AM
Here we go again.SUPRA jumps from his trousers by trying to prove what doesn't exist.

A subject about Ukr were discussed some time ago and Paul even asked an opinion on a female forum and got an answer what RW think about Ukr girls.

Supra can jump from his trousers again and again ,so what?  :smokin:

In my opinion or he doesn't know whom he talk about or he is not honest.


Again why don't we stick to facts or things we know instead of speculating and stay ON TOPIC.  I don't care if you think I'm honest or not, unless you have FACTS to state you are simply trying to be underhanded and insulting again.  This thread is not about me, it's about friction between UW and RW.  What does jumping from trousers have to do with anything?  Can you talk about facts without trying to insult someone?

The simple fact is I have successfully debated and disputed several of your statements and you have *NO* answers other than to try to insult me which is what someone does when they've lost an argument.  In what area can you prove I am not honest or don't know what I'm talking about?  Please specify or else again it's you're just stating an opinon based on your irrational prejudice.  You have backed up NOTHING of what I disputed with fact and instead obfuscate and deflect when someone posts anything that disputes your baseless opinons.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 18, 2009, 08:30:50 AM
Supranatural

If some facts are needed then how about this one. Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today. Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the prodaters abounding, GCG, as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance. There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others. Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less. Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do. 

Prostitution comes in many forms, where I would have to say the actual one is at least honest, since both sides know actually what they are getting. And how is which country is more friendly, or less materialistic, staying on topic as to why there is friction.   ???

Now Mirror's level of English is not the same as ours, maybe you should switch to Russian so she has a better chance for those facts you want her to produce.  8)     
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 08:38:49 AM
Supranatural

If some facts are needed then how about this one. Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today. Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the prodaters abounding, GCG, as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance. There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others. Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less. Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do.  

Prostitution comes in many forms, where I would have to say the actual one is at least honest, since both sides know actually what they are getting. And how is which country is more friendly, or less materialistic, staying on topic as to why there is friction.   ???

Now Mirror's level of English is not the same as ours, maybe you should switch to Russian so she has a better chance for those facts you want her to produce.  8)      

As far as mirror's English, why should I switch to Russian?  This is an English based forum and she chooses to participate on it, the onus is on HER to speak English not for me to speak Russian.  Would a Russian speaking forum be expected to speak English for me?  I think not.  Regardless, the fact that she spouts opinions rather than facts is not a function of English versus Russian language, it's purely spouting her prejudices in the matter.  I'm "jumping out of my trousers" ???? is not a fact, it's a pure opinion.  saying that I'm "not honest???" is again another opinion and not a fact or personal verifiable experience on her part.

As far as the chances of finding a good partner in UW versus RW, again that is a matter of opinion.  At this time I know just as many successful AM-UW marriages as AM-RW marriages.  Do you have actual numbers, facts and figures to support your contentions which are pretty broad brush strokes?  If not it's speculation and opinion and nothing more.  I've found plenty of GCG in Russia as well as Ukraine.  Neither has a lock on that, nor does either have a lock on prostitution.  I've had marriages from both countries.  I've visited both countries.  Personally I much prefer UW at this time but it's a personal preference based on my experiences.  If you want to present what you say as FACT then you will have to provide supporting evidence other than stating it's "fact", evidence of which I see none in your post.  In my actual experience, I feel I found more marriage minded and potentially good partners during the time I spent in Ukraine than the time I've spent in Russia.  So my personal experience refutes your "facts."

So according to you there are more UW on pay sites than RW.  Can you provide some actual numbers from the agencies, or have you counted them up for all the pay sites out there?  Both times I was in process of looking for someone from the FSU I did not find a huge disparity in numbers.  The first time (in 2001) I found far more RW in my experience and my letter writing campaign supports this.  The second time around, 2 years ago, the numbers were pretty even in my search.  In fact I had more scammer emails from Russia than Ukraine this time around.  Besides, even if it is fact that there are more UW on sites simply means there are more UW on sites.  Unless you can find a real correlation or causation between the two, you are using false logical arguments and cause and effect. 

As far as friction from more UW damaging the process, I don't see that as why there is friction.  Personally I've never heard a RW say "I don't like UW because they make it harder for me to find a foreigner to marry", have you?  So I'd have to disagree with that.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 18, 2009, 10:46:02 AM
fireeater,

I think you need stay away from this information struggle because looks like it is my destiny to be a nightman to clean from all proukr sh..t ,oh,sorry, advertisements here.  :rolleye0009:

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 18, 2009, 10:50:54 AM
Look at it this way for Mirror, it is not hard for an adult to put down child not skilled in debating. The same would apply for some one who's language skills are weak in one language while the other is skilled in it. She would probably win in her own language.  :nod:

Yet I see no facts from you, only your own opinion based on your own experiences, the same as the women who say the opposite to you. So where are your FACTS.

As for what I said, everything listed is also been said here in other threads, even by some who have been arguing with the women. A lot of major Ukrainian cities, are listed as poor looking grounds, terms like over fished, women knowing how to play the game for profit, as well as some as major centres for those agencies to make money off this endeavor.

Now a very simple fact, that if you look at high price sites you will find the majority are from that one country. I have tested some of those with just a profile. The majority again are all from the same country, and are designed to fleece you out of you money. One I tested in actual fact, hence the knowledge to know what the others are doing. And yes those ladies working for and agency exist in real life, and they are all not fat Yuri. Even Edward here has confirmed that, as well as one of our female members who was offered a job at one. This is not just my opinion but one confirmed also by other members here in their comments, and advice given to others. If any country would be found on the dubious list it would be Ukrainian at the top of it. The problem with the games here is that is hurts badly the chances for a legitmate women who is serious in being found. Now if women are selling their services to make money off this business what term would you use for this. Seems a form of prostitution to me.        

Now I did not say it does not occur elsewhere, only that it is more prevalent in this country then others,  8)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 18, 2009, 10:54:09 AM

If some facts are needed then how about this one.

Yes facts are needed, are any being presented? I'm just seeing "opinions" sometimes paraded as fact.


Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today.

And the basis for this "fact"?  ???


Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

Lugansk, Ukraine is known as a hotbed for scammers. So is Yoshkar ola, in Russia. There are bad agencies operating everywhere in the FSU.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the pro-daters abounding, GCG,

Again, do you have any basis for this claim?

as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance.

And that has nothing to do with "RW" or "UW", that is just a few crooked guys scamming Western men under the guise of an agency.

There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others.

Again, basis for this statement? How many Ukr. agencies have you used, vs Russian?

And as stated previously, crooked agencies are mainly the work of a few individuals, not the 1000's of UW who have profiles

Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less.

Perhaps. Your point? RW are jealous of UW because many of them have profiles?  :duh:

Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do. 

You can get scammed in Kiev, Moscow or Minsk. It doesn't "damaging the process", it just means that the international dating has a somewhat dubious reputation, and savvy searchers will remember "buyer beware"

Now Mirror's level of English is not the same as ours, maybe you should switch to Russian so she has a better chance for those facts you want her to produce.  8)     

Mirror does quite well in English, it seems.

Mirror is welcome to post links to any sites or surveys that support the contention "All UW are prostitutes", or that "the only prostitutes in Moscow are Ukrainians" or any other alleged "fact". You can also post any fact to support your contention.


Again, this is my opinion, there are GCG, GTG, scammers & scam agencies in Russia, Ukraine & Belarus. Use your brain first, take your time to build a relationship, and you won't get burned.


I can respect Wild Orchid's positions, she stated from her experience "UW were more greedy than RW". Fair enough, it's based on her personal observations.

But when people start to throw around statements like "All UW are prostitutes" or "Most prostitutes in Russia are Ukrainian" without any basis for these statements, the poster loses credibility.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 18, 2009, 10:57:42 AM
Look at it this way for Mirror, it is not hard for an adult to put down child not skilled in debating. The same would apply for some one who's language skills are weak in one language while the other is skilled in it. She would probably win in her own language.  :nod:

Yet I see no facts from you, only your own opinion based on your own experiences, the same as the women who say the opposite to you. So where are your FACTS.

Any links to data in Russian would be just fine too.  :-\
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 11:24:54 AM
Look at it this way for Mirror, it is not hard for an adult to put down child not skilled in debating. The same would apply for some one who's language skills are weak in one language while the other is skilled in it. She would probably win in her own language.  :nod:

Except in this debate I am not trying to use language skills to out-debate mirror.  I am asking for facts, substantiating evidence.  You don't have to be skillful in English to produce evidence of a factual nature instead of spouting prejudiced opinions.

Yet I see no facts from you, only your own opinion based on your own experiences, the same as the women who say the opposite to you. So where are your FACTS.

Exactly.

As for what I said, everything listed is also been said here in other threads, even by some who have been arguing with the women. A lot of major Ukrainian cities, are listed as poor looking grounds, terms like over fished, women knowing how to play the game for profit, as well as some as major centres for those agencies to make money off this endeavor.

I'm sure that it's been said in other threads but without substantiating evidence these are again opinons.  Granted it may be good opinions based on personal experience, however in my experience I've found scammers in both countries and also cities to avoid in Russia.  That said, I've also found honest decent women in Lugansk which is purported to be a hotbed for scammers.  The truth is if someone thinks with their big head and not their little head they vastly reduce their chances of being scammed and any city can possibly have some great women for someone to meet.  As Voyager said as well, agencies that scam are a few individuals working to scam you, not the entire UW population.

Now a very simple fact, that if you look at high price sites you will find the majority are from that one country. I have tested some of those with just a profile. The majority again are all from the same country, and are designed to fleece you out of you money. One I tested in actual fact, hence the knowledge to know what the others are doing. And yes those ladies working for and agency exist in real life, and they are all not fat Yuri. Even Edward here has confirmed that, as well as one of our female members who was offered a job at one. This is not just my opinion but one confirmed also by other members here in their comments, and advice given to others. If any country would be found on the dubious list it would be Ukrainian at the top of it. The problem with the games here is that is hurts badly the chances for a legitmate women who is serious in being found. Now if women are selling their services to make money off this business what term would you use for this. Seems a form of prostitution to me.         

But it's NOT prostitution.  I can respect you feeling it's a form of prostitution, but when we say prostitution can we agree that 99.99% of the general population has the same definition - that of a woman who sells strictly sex for money in a straightfoward manner and that this is what mirror means when she labels UW as prostitutes?  And that if we want to say that it's a form of prostitution, shouldn't it be said that in a sense most people prostitute themselves for money by not working for the purity of what they do but rather for a paycheck?  Can you see that by saying this is a form of prostitution we start walking a slippery slope?

But going back to the original statement by mirror that "UW are prostitutes" I think we can all agree that this is certainly not true.  I know plenty of women from UW and I KNOW for a fact that my wife, her two sisters in law, her niece and her mom have never been prostitutes nor are they now. 

Now I did not say it does not occur elsewhere, only that it is more prevalent in this country then others,  8)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 18, 2009, 11:34:12 AM
Supernatural;
 You're welcome to use my sig line from an earlier discussion of this topic!!!

It's not worth the effort to try to reason with her. 8)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 18, 2009, 11:43:59 AM
Supernatural;
 You're welcome to use my sig line from an earlier discussion of this topic!!!

It's not worth the effort to try to reason with her. 8)

Indeed, it's unlikely that anyone will change their mind from reading this topic, but we decided to allow this thread to have some airing of the reasons behind these national biases. (if there are any reasons)

We think that it may help the beginner to understand that some prejudices do exist in the FSU, so that the WM won't be surprised when they run across these attitudes
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 18, 2009, 01:18:59 PM

If some facts are needed then how about this one. Of all the FSU countries, Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today. Considering even on this forum, there are whole cities not recommended for anyone looking. Yet how many other places can you list in another country that have been listed in the same manner.

It is usually Ukrainian that has the prodaters abounding, GCG, as well as more women working for an agency,pretending to be potential brides for men. Which is in my opinion just another form of prostitution, they get paid to give that fantasy of romance. There are probably more bad agencies in this country then will be found in others. Check the ratio of any high pay site and the Ukrainian women will be the majority, other countries will be less. Do you think this may also cause some friction since they are damaging the more valid process for those who are serious in this endeavor. This does not include the whole country, but it does have a much greater ratio for it then others do. 



Dear Fireeater

Did anyone stop to think that WM get what we deserve in some parts of UA?

I expect the results would be the same in Russia - if there was Visa free travel..

 Lugansk is a VERY "Russian" city in Ukraine... it sits on the border..and is made up of "Russians".. so what conclusion should we draw... "don't trust Ukrainian Russians !!" ?!!  ;)

Russia has had it's centres of scammers, too ( Yoshkar-Ola ?)

When I hear RW knocking UW re dating.. I am in total bewilderment.. as most of the scams are more likely to originate from ethnic Russian speaking areas... NOT "true Ukrainian" speaking regions !!...

YES, there are more UA women listed - proportionately - proportionately more WM go to UA...!!

I'm CERTAIN that if my wife had lived further west / in UA she would have had loads of visits..


SO many guys offered to come to Krasnoyarsk ( Central Siberia) then realised HOW far it was, and the logistics, and then asked her to come to Moscow .... I was the first WM she'd met.. the ONLY one who bothered !! :)))))

UW have had FAR more experience of WM... and NOT always good...   Even though my wife is Russian, I think saying " Ukrainian would be the least likely to find a good partner today" says more about WM "spoiling things" rather than UW....
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 18, 2009, 01:49:54 PM
Yoyager

You will have to wait till I have acess to my fact sheet, I do not carry it around.  :chuckle:

But on a quick check on line. One site has 2232 russian women, 9659 Ukraiian women. Total for the site is 13447 so the difference is other countries.
On line waiting to rope you into a chat room at present time 3 Russian women, 278 Ukraiian women. None from any other at the present time. Since the ecomony went upside down this particular area for chatting has tripled for the number being on it during sleeping hours at home. Seems more need the money produced by it now.   tiphat

Mosby

If you have never tested a high priced site you have no idea of what you are talking about. I have and confirmed for myself what occurs and where. Others I have tested as well with the same conditions applying but never all the way. just a profile. It is a great way to determine if the site is legit or not. But for the one tested all the way, also included two fake profiles as that confirmation, and I was able to read all three profiles for letters coming in. Yet only had the ability to respond in one profile in any depth. It is truely a "business" for that country, and it does occur in others as well. Just more in this one then in others. It is quite educational if you do this, but one should never attempt it on a serious side. Once I get my list I can be more specific, and accurate.  :)   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 18, 2009, 04:29:12 PM
Hi Fi-beater !;)



>>If you have never tested a high priced site you have no idea of what you are talking about.<<

And as I HAVE ?!! I was STUupid in my early days, FE.. I searched a LONG time..  I have been a member of just about EVERY site that was around .. So, now that we have established my "dubious cred" to comment.. *I* think I can speak with some "authority", matey !! ..

As you know I've been able to travel  travelled widely in UA and RU, too.

Now, would you mind responding to my points?



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 18, 2009, 04:31:46 PM
It is usually Ukrainian that has the pro-daters abounding, GCG,

Again, do you have any basis for this claim?

I do.

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

Read the GCG stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the DV in the US stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the "Wife split" type topics: Mostly Ukraine.

For sure, there are many fabulous women in Ukraine. Many of our members are married to them. I know all about the cultural similarities with Russians etc. But it does seem that most "hard luck" stories come from guys involved with women from Ukraine.

When did we last read about a green card girl from Russia? From Moldova? From Lithuania? From Kaliningrad?

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 18, 2009, 04:43:28 PM
Hi Manny

good points, but proportionately far more WM visit UA than RU..  Are you SERIOUSLY going to suggest Lugansk ladies are SO culturally different from RW.. it is less than 10 miles from Russia, and the border is less than 20yrs old

Come on.. it's all about "ease" of travel to UA over RU

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 18, 2009, 04:58:15 PM
Come on.. it's all about "ease" of travel to UA over RU

I would agree that is part of the reason.

I think the more important reason is that Ukraine is much more economically depressed that Russia.  Therefore many more ladies are willing to exchange their looks and intelligence to a man old enough to be their father for a chance at escape from their financial hopelessness with no foreseeable end to the plight.

It's much more about escape than it is ease of travel.  But the two do seem to compliment each other. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 18, 2009, 04:58:43 PM
Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  :'(

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 18, 2009, 05:51:58 PM


And interestingly enough since I've been with both RW and UW, when I was with my ex-RW wife her Russian friends were forever sniping at each other, bragging about how much money they had or their husband had.  With my UW friends, I almost never see this. 

Absolutely opposite situation for me, that is why I said I can speak only about my own experience, that is why I'm not very fond of UW, I've never met UW that won't talk about money and that someone is rich, other husband is poor. I have Russian friends and we talk about kids, work, trips to Russia etc, etc, but not money.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 18, 2009, 06:04:26 PM
Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  :'(

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?
I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: hemingway on September 18, 2009, 06:15:54 PM
Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  :'(

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?
I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.
Ed:
Do you see the "overall materialistic attitude" as something driven by poverty, or something inherent in Ukrainian culture?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 18, 2009, 06:38:24 PM
Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  :'(

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?
I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.
Ed:
Do you see the "overall materialistic attitude" as something driven by poverty, or something inherent in Ukrainian culture?
I wouldn't categorise the living condition of people in Ukraine as poverty.. Yes the salaries are small but people in Ukraine were always used to hustling for money (yes, even during the USSR times. And they manage to make money one way or another and in my experience  ON AVERAGE are more driven to make money than people in Russia. This actually would be a good thing IMO if people were doing it in ethical ways, but in Ukraine it seems like anything goes and one needs to watch out. They still even extort money from you at some airports in Ukraine!
I said it before and since some people don't seem to get it I will say it again. I don't think that this has anything to do with people's ethnicity. It's just "the law of tha land" seems like, the culture of the place and has nothing to do wether they are Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, Tatar, Greek, German, Uzbek or even Irish... :chuckle:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 06:44:56 PM


And interestingly enough since I've been with both RW and UW, when I was with my ex-RW wife her Russian friends were forever sniping at each other, bragging about how much money they had or their husband had.  With my UW friends, I almost never see this. 

Absolutely opposite situation for me, that is why I said I can speak only about my own experience, that is why I'm not very fond of UW, I've never met UW that won't talk about money and that someone is rich, other husband is poor. I have Russian friends and we talk about kids, work, trips to Russia etc, etc, but not money.

WO you would probably like my wife.  She never talks about money with her friends although she has RW and UW friends some of which (both on the RW and UW side) who talk to her about how much money they have.  My wife never mentions to them how much money I make on Wall street...ever.  She prefers to talk about hiking, funny stories, what kind of trouble some of her friends back in UA get into, good jokes she's heard, etc.  I've never caught her ever talking to friends about money or how much we have or don't have.  And she is UW...
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: hemingway on September 18, 2009, 06:54:49 PM
I can't remember if I posted this before, but it is from p. 67 of the Bradt Ukraine guide:
"Ukrainians freely admit that they don't trust their own countrymen, a general fear which contributes to nationwide tension...." Bradt doesn't have a Russia guide for comparison, but I don't have any indication that Russians believe the same, generally speaking, about their own countrymen.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 06:58:30 PM
Come on.. it's all about "ease" of travel to UA over RU

I would agree that is part of the reason.

I think the more important reason is that Ukraine is much more economically depressed that Russia.  Therefore many more ladies are willing to exchange their looks and intelligence to a man old enough to be their father for a chance at escape from their financial hopelessness with no foreseeable end to the plight.

It's much more about escape than it is ease of travel.  But the two do seem to compliment each other. 

Shakespear, how much current experience do you have with UW and travel there?  I've been there 8 times in the two years or so, including a 5 week stay.  I've met plenty of UW including the time I initally went on a "tour" to meet UW.  Far fewer women are so eager to leave at this time - you may not believe it but except for the current world financial crises that affects every country, most are doing far better than you think you know.  I've heard a lot of your anti-UW bias on other forums and I can respect that you have an opinion, but I have a LOT more  current in country experience than you do and unless you can back up what you say with actual experience I will take my actual experience over yours thank you.

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more infomation.

When I was there I was in several different cities and I saw a lot of new construction, new western style malls, and more and more amenties for travelers.  My wife's family has plenty of money, and the friends I have there also have plenty of money.  One of my friends bought a $50,000 car for cash to add to his two other cars, replete with in car entertainment system, navigation, etc.  and is building a 3 story house in the Crimea.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 18, 2009, 06:59:49 PM
Sorry Msmoby Voyager gets priority since he requested it first. But if on all, seems you did not pay attention to what was occurring.  :chuckle:

A check of another site Ukraine 12,625  Russia 1582 Ones available for paid video chat Ukraine 6299, Russia 294.
For both of these sites the figures are out of proportion for the size and population in the country. The only saving grace is that most will be found only on high price sites, and are on more then one site. Since cultural differences are similar, as well as other factors, they should be at least equal in numbers.

Now some cities, Kevi, Kerch, Krivoi Rog, Lusansk, Mariupol, Nikolaev, Odessa, Poltava, Simferpol, Sevastopol, Zaporzhie. Yet for Russia Pskov, and St Pertersburg would be the only two I would list. All of these had a massive numbers of unsolicited letters sent in the dead of night (for the women's dead of night). A lot of them sent within seconds of each other, and would appear in your mailbox all in a row. All sent by agency personal to solicit your business, since the ladies would be fast asleep On that subject the age range starts at 18, and heads toward your own regardless of what your profile states for this. Volume for the two fake profiles was around 500-600 letters, in a couple of weeks. The letters would be the same in all profiles. some even had seconds and thirds sent as well, while I left them active. Some of these ladies are real, some may not be.


Now one city had one group of ladies disappear, while another stayed put. But both groups had those a paid women working there. For the group that disappeared that was the one agency Julie identified here, with branches in a lot of cities. and mainly Ukraine. So there is more then one agency that uses this in any city. But for a lot of those paid ladies you can verify they are real, by using the web cam with or without their knowledge. Now any women who can spend 10 hours in a room, then go to work the next morning and reappear after work back in the agency is a paid worker. Since in that time frame she has had no sleep by anyones calculation. I could monitor this and not even sign on to the site to do that. Before the meltdown in the economy only about 100 would be on line when they should be sleeping, today three times the number. This is a business that includes payment for emails sent, gifts, chats, etc. And Ukraine has been leading the way in it, or else the number for women on these site would be less then it is.  :nod:    
          
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 07:00:51 PM
Culturally, there is no difference - I agree.

For Americans its about no visa and ease of travel.

Of course the figures will be skewed because most men go to Ukraine.

But lets not forget, Ukraine is awash with foreigners seeking women. It has been for many years. Who wants to meet a woman who 30 guys met before? Who wants to meet a woman who met so many foreign guys she is seriously jaded? (Clever guys get out of the cities in Ukraine)

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  :'(

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?
I agree with most of your points Manny, but I personally do not find that many UW are trying to escape their homeland nowdays what so ever. In that regard NORMAL women in Ukraine are not that different from the women in Russia. Problem is that so many good looking UW were or are still involved with the MOB industry that even if they quit they remain tainted by it and look at the WM with a certain attitude. I think too many of them think of the WM as a money making opportunity. And with overall materialistic attitude in Ukr. it can be a lethal combination IMO.
Ed:
Do you see the "overall materialistic attitude" as something driven by poverty, or something inherent in Ukrainian culture?
I wouldn't categorise the living condition of people in Ukraine as poverty.. Yes the salaries are small but people in Ukraine were always used to hustling for money (yes, even during the USSR times. And they manage to make money one way or another and in my experience  ON AVERAGE are more driven to make money than people in Russia. This actually would be a good thing IMO if people were doing it in ethical ways, but in Ukraine it seems like anything goes and one needs to watch out. They still even extort money from you at some airports in Ukraine!
I said it before and since some people don't seem to get it I will say it again. I don't think that this has anything to do with people's ethnicity. It's just "the law of tha land" seems like, the culture of the place and has nothing to do wether they are Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, Tatar, Greek, German, Uzbek or even Irish... :chuckle:

Eduard you bring up a good point.  I've seen a lot of Ukrainians who hustle and work hard.  My wife's brothers became the largest distributor of electrical supplies in their region because they hustled and worked hard (and still work long 10-12 hour days) to make it that way.  They started with nothing and they are very very successful.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 18, 2009, 07:12:29 PM

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more information.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

Dude, where have you been for the last 2 years?  Economic figures from 2007 are meaningless now.  They became meaningless after September 2008.   In 2007 western hotel rooms at the Ritz and Hyatt in Moscow cost over $1000 per night.  Now you can get them for $300 or less on weekends.  `

The Russian Open golf tournament was cancelled in 2009 for lack of a sponsor.  New building construction is at a virtual standstill because capital is just not available.  Every business owner I spoke with reported business down from 35-60% compared to 2007.  I was just there a week ago pal, so don't tell me what I know and don't know.   

Things are horrible in Russia right now.  And since the Ukrainian economy is a lesser reflection of their major trading partner, Russia, that means it must be downright unbearable in Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 07:27:16 PM

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more information.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

Dude, where have you been for the last 2 years?  Economic figures from 2007 are meaningless now.  They became meaningless after September 2008.   In 2007 western hotel rooms at the Ritz and Hyatt in Moscow cost over $1000 per night.  Now you can get them for $300 or less on weekends.  `

The Russian Open golf tournament was cancelled in 2009 for lack of a sponsor.  New building construction is at a virtual standstill because capital is just not available.  Every business owner I spoke with reported business down from 35-60% compared to 2007.  I was just there a week ago pal, so don't tell me what I know and don't know.  


Where have I been?  Shakespear, I am intimately familiar with the economic client - my clients include Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, and many other fortune 100 company.  The last 2 years I've been making money hand over fist as I've tripled my company income during that time period from financial and pharma companies.  My brother manages the traders in one of the biggest banks in HK, several of my close friends are bond and equities managers in the major financial companies in NYC, etc.  I think I'm pretty aware of the economic climate.  As I said before, EVERY country was affected by the economic downturn.  Or did you gloss over that part in your rush to post a response?  Both Russia and Ukraine are affected as I said but I addressed your statement that Ukraine is "much" more economically depressed than Russia.  It isn't, it's similarly depressed as Russia no more so, considering its GDP was increasing faster than Russia before the downturn.  And now that the economy is recovering, there is little doubt that Ukraine's GDP growth will be on the upswing again.  I am in Ukraine a lot, so don't tell me what's going in Ukraine, pal.  So I will tell you what you don't know, and that's Ukraine.  It's like me going to Florida and claiming I know about California.  It's a long stretch buddy.  How many times have you been in Ukraine in the past 2 years?

You report construction as being down in Russia.  That's RUSSIA, not Ukraine.  Your in country experience is in Russia.  You have no current (or from what I understand) and very little, if any , experience in Ukraine.  One of my friends does government construction projects for Ukraine and he is making a lot of money even now.


Things are horrible in Russia right now.  And since the Ukrainian economy is a lesser reflection of their major trading partner, Russia, that means it must be downright unbearable in Ukraine.  

Wow, "means it must be downright unbearable" sounds an awful lot like you're making a big assumption there pal.  And you know what happens when you assume.  You somehow extend your visits to Russia as meaning you know about Ukraine.  I'll tell you, from your posts in the past, you know very little about the realities in Ukraine, and that's being generous on my part.  To use your agument, I've been in Ukraine, you haven't.  Compared to you I'm an expert on Ukraine if we use your supporting argument that you're an expert on Russia because you were there last week.  Yeah it's so unbearable that my wife's family (mom, dad, brothers, nieces, nephews, etc) is in Turkey enjoying a 2 week vacation, with a side trip to Cyprus Greece.  They tell me every day it's simply awful how they have to make do with a 5 star hotel, spending time on the beach, swimming in 88 degree waters...it's horrible man.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 18, 2009, 07:34:56 PM
My wife never mentions to them how much money I make on Wall street...ever. 

was it a hint?  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 18, 2009, 07:35:33 PM
Msmoby

If western man has created this in Ukraine, then in turn Ukraine is now capitalizing on it. Manny has already confirmed those threads, and has the same results overall I have noticed
over time as a pattern that is more common in one place. Visa free makes it easier for most, but that same lure could also be used in other countries. Keep in mind the idea of sex sells, is a lure that all can use to get him there. But only one predominates the market. So if we  Westerners created it, then we also need to recognize that this is a spoiled territory, and is much harder to wade now though all the pitfalls, and come out without massive scars at the end of it. A lot may have also found their other half before things became the way it is today. The problem is not that you won't. only that it is will be so much harder with all the false trails, that have to be trodden on first. If those ethic Russians in Ukraine are the ones doing it, then you just defeated your own argument, that they should not be included in this friction between the countries. That would make a Russian in Ukraine no different then a Ukrainian.        


I like the new nickname you and Fo must be exchanging ideas.   :laugh:  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 07:37:59 PM
My wife never mentions to them how much money I make on Wall street...ever. 

was it a hint?  :chuckle:



No, no hints.  The only thing she will say is that I work in NY/NJ area.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 18, 2009, 07:50:36 PM
[Both Russia and Ukraine are affected as I said but I addressed your statement that Ukraine is "much" more economically depressed than Russia.  It isn't, it's similarly depressed as Russia no more so, considering its GDP was increasing faster than Russia before the downturn.  And now that the economy is recovering, there is little doubt that Ukraine's GDP growth will be on the upswing again. 

Funny how none of the experts seem to agree with your observations

Here's the facts: 

However Ukraine was greatly affected by the economic crisis of 2008 and as a result the World Bank expects Ukraine`s economy is to shrink 15% in 2009 with inflation being 16.4%. The Ukrainian government predicts GDP growth of 0.4% in 2009 and a slowdown in inflation to 9.5% (also in 2009), although the overwhelming majority of economists consider this forecast to be excessively optimistic. In 2008 the hryvnia (Ukraine's currency) has dropped 38% against the US dollar, eclipsed only by the Icelandic krona and the Seychelles rupee.  According to a forecast by the State Employment Center unemployment in Ukraine will triple to 9% in 2009 (there was 3% unemployment at the end of 2008), which would mean about 3 million people will apply for employment services.  I understand their government debt rating was cut to CCC+ by S&P.

http://www.gmfus.org/publications/article.cfm?id=592

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0206/p07s03-woeu.html

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/ukraine-delicate-balancing-act

http://seekingalpha.com/article/123462-ukrainian-economy-getting-ugly

And look at these graphs.  Yep, the Ukrainian economy is clearly recovering.  Just where did you get your business degree anyway?  Want to make sure my kid doesn't go there. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 18, 2009, 07:57:22 PM

No, no hints.  The only thing she will say is that I work in NY/NJ area.
my post wasn't about what she says, it was about what you said  :)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 18, 2009, 08:02:36 PM
Supra,

I have been in Ukraine 5 times in the last year. Things are difficult for a lot of people there. Most construction projects are sitting idle. Almost all of the large plants in Kharkov are operating at minimal capacity or are shut down completely. The largest industrial employer in Kherson is paying 1/2 wages and has laid off many workers.  I am glad your wife's family is doing well but they are the exception in my experience.

B.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: BCKev on September 18, 2009, 08:03:59 PM

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

I was just reading a recent topic about a scammer from Ivanovo, Russia
Here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8530.msg121529#msg121529




Quote

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.


I took you up on the offer, and tallied up the stories in our Train Wreck Room. A total of 10 stories there. (I excluded the threads on Leo, Loyal, and SVOrookie)  
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=46.0

The results?  7 Russian train wrecks, 3 Ukrainian train wrecks. Clearly not an overwhelming majority of Ukrainian train wrecks as you suggest.

Based on the above, I disagree with your generalizations.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 08:06:50 PM
[Both Russia and Ukraine are affected as I said but I addressed your statement that Ukraine is "much" more economically depressed than Russia.  It isn't, it's similarly depressed as Russia no more so, considering its GDP was increasing faster than Russia before the downturn.  And now that the economy is recovering, there is little doubt that Ukraine's GDP growth will be on the upswing again.  

Funny how none of the experts seem to agree with your observations

Here's the facts:  

However Ukraine was greatly affected by the economic crisis of 2008 and as a result the World Bank expects Ukraine`s economy is to shrink 15% in 2009[6] with inflation being 16.4%. The Ukrainian government predicts GDP growth of 0.4% in 2009 and a slowdown in inflation to 9.5% (also in 2009), although the overwhelming majority of economists consider this forecast to be excessively optimistic. In 2008 the hryvnia (Ukraine's currency) has dropped 38% against the US dollar, eclipsed only by the Icelandic krona and the Seychelles rupee.  According to a forecast by the State Employment Center unemployment in Ukraine will triple to 9% in 2009 (there was 3% unemployment at the end of 2008), which would mean about 3 million people will apply for employment services.  I understand their government debt rating was cut to CCC+ by S&P.

http://www.gmfus.org/publications/article.cfm?id=592

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0206/p07s03-woeu.html

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/ukraine-delicate-balancing-act

http://seekingalpha.com/article/123462-ukrainian-economy-getting-ugly

And look at these graphs.  Yep, the Ukrainian economy is clearly recovering.  Just where did you get your business degree anyway?  Want to make sure my kid doesn't go there.  

Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem Shakey.  All you've produced is graphs for Ukraine, and not current ones at that since they stop at late 2008 early 2009.  You need to compare to Russia as you stated that it is "much" more depressed than Russia.  You have not proven that whereas I've proven that they have been experiencing faster GDP growth than Russia.

And again, you have not addressed how YOU are an expert on Ukraine when you never visit Ukraine.  You know next to nothing about Ukraine based on your in country experience.  Please answer that point Shakey.

I couldn't care less where your kid goes to school Shakey.  My education in finance comes from the some of the best financial poeple in the industry who's financial income would dwarf yours.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 08:08:46 PM
Supra,

I have been in Ukraine 5 times in the last year. Things are difficult for a lot of people there. Most construction projects are sitting idle. Almost all of the large plants in Kharkov are operating at minimal capacity or are shut down completely. The largest industrial employer in Kherson is paying 1/2 wages and has laid off many workers.  I am glad your wife's family is doing well but they are the exception in my experience.

B.


Understood but my point is that Ukraine is no more depressed than Russia, and that some people are still making money.  Shakey's statement that Ukraine is suffering much more than Russia in comparison is erroneous and sophomoric.  Everyone is hurting everywhere...my wife's family business is not making the same money they made 2 years ago but they are still doing okay.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 08:09:32 PM

No, no hints.  The only thing she will say is that I work in NY/NJ area.
my post wasn't about what she says, it was about what you said  :)

Simply stating a fact to support my post. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 18, 2009, 08:25:21 PM
And again, you have not addressed how YOU are an expert on Ukraine when you never visit Ukraine.  You know next to nothing about Ukraine based on your in country experience.  Please answer that point Shakey. 

I've never been to the moon but I know it's not made of green cheese.   :ROFL:

I've never been to the Gobi Desert but I know it's hot there.   :ROFL:

I've never been to the North Pole but I know it's cold there.   :ROFL:

Just because you've not been to a place doesn't mean you can't understand basic economic data and statistics about the place.  Ukraine's major trading partner is Russia.  You don't dispute that do you?  Over 35% of their imports and exports are sourced to Russia.  Why is it obvious to every economist but you that when you have such a large dependence on one trading partner, your economy will be a conclave mirror image of their economy?  The Ukrainian indicators will never be as high on the good side and will always be lower on the bad side than their Russian counterparts.  If Russian GDP is up 20% , Ukraine will be up 15%.  If Russian inflation is 15%, Ukraine will be 20%.  It's basic Economics 200 theory at most colleges.  You must have slept thru that class.     
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 08:39:05 PM
And again, you have not addressed how YOU are an expert on Ukraine when you never visit Ukraine.  You know next to nothing about Ukraine based on your in country experience.  Please answer that point Shakey.  

I've never been to the moon but I know it's not made of green cheese.   :ROFL:

I've never been to the Gobi Desert but I know it's hot there.   :ROFL:

I've never been to the North Pole but I know it's cold there.   :ROFL:

Just because you've not been to a place doesn't mean you can't understand basic economic data and statistics about the place.  Ukraine's major trading partner is Russia.  You don't dispute that do you?  Over 25% of their imports and exports are sourced to Russia.  Why is it obvious to every economist but you that when you have such a large dependence on one trading partner, your economy will be a conclave mirror image of their economy?  The Ukrainian indicators will never be as high on the good side and will always be lower on the bad side than their Russian counterparts.  If Russian GDP is up 20% , Ukraine will be up 15%.  If Russian inflation is 15%, Ukraine will be 20%.  It's basic Economics 200 theory at most colleges.  You must have slept thru that class.    

Shakey again you are being sophomoric and it's hilarious.  You can only depend on knowing the Gobi desert is hot because someone else has been there and reported it back. Of course some things you don't have to be there but you were the one who stated his expertise because you were in "Russia just last week."  You can't throw that out as your source of "expertise" and then say you don't have to be in Ukraine to know what it's like there.  False logic at work here.  "I am an expert because I noted hotel prices in Moscow last week so therefore I know the economic climate.  Now, I have NOT been to Ukraine ever, but I hear it's economically depressed."  See the dichotomy in your logic here?  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  So again I call bullsh*t on your supposed Ukraine expertise unless you can produce evidence that Ukraine is "MUCH more depressed than Russia."  Prove it or you simply are pulling things out of your arse as usual.

Economics 101?  Come on shakey.  If that was all that was required to know how economies work we'd all go to class, listen and become multi millionaires.  It isn't because economics is not so simple.  In fact economics is as defined "the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses."  Your error is in thinking it is about money and finances.  Realize that it's an inexact science.  It's why it's very difficult to predict what people will do and why good earnings reports sometimes boosts a stock or depresses it unpredictably.  Again you have NOT produce evidence that Ukraine is depressed MORE than Russia.  None. Nada.

Let's say this again.  Please provide evidence that Ukraine is much more economically depressed than Russia.  Otherwise you are full of it. Provide some real correlation and evidence and I'll listen with rapt attention.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 18, 2009, 08:55:42 PM
[
Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem Shakey.  All you've produced is graphs for Ukraine, and not current ones at that since they stop at late 2008 early 2009.  You need to compare to Russia as you stated that it is "much" more depressed than Russia.  You have not proven that whereas I've proven that they have been experiencing faster GDP growth than Russia.

You haven't proven anything since you haven't provided any Russian data.  Let me do it for you here -

From current economic statistics -

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%

Unemployment Rate:
Russia:    7.1%
Ukraine:  9.0%

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

Clearly virtually ALL economic indicators are currently worse in Ukraine than they are in Russia.  Hmmmm, not bad for never having been in Ukraine don't you think?  Balls in your court smart guy.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 09:18:08 PM
[
Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem Shakey.  All you've produced is graphs for Ukraine, and not current ones at that since they stop at late 2008 early 2009.  You need to compare to Russia as you stated that it is "much" more depressed than Russia.  You have not proven that whereas I've proven that they have been experiencing faster GDP growth than Russia.

You haven't proven anything since you haven't provided any Russian data.  Let me do it for you here -

From current economic statistics -

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

Clearly virtually ALL economic indicators are currently worse in Ukraine than they are in Russia.  Hmmmm, not bad for never having been in Ukraine don't you think?  Balls in your court smart guy.



Sources?  I've quoted my sources what are yours.

Regardless, the difference is around 10% between Russia and Ukraine.  That is not "much" more depressed to support your argument that there are more desperate women in Ukraine.  If the difference was 30-40% I'd give you that you have something there.  You don't.  Regardless, the original argument was that you said Ukrainian women are more desperate and your supporting argument was the that Ukraine was "much" more economically depressed.  You have yet to prove that.  And, you have not been to Ukraine to witness firsthand if the women are desperate.  I have and you are wrong there as well. 

And if we follow your argument about the worldwide economic crises as cause and effect, then there should, according to you, been desperate Ukrainian women only in the last year or so.  But you've harped on and on since, oh, around 2001 at least, that Ukrainian women are desperate and UA is not a good place to look for wife, yet during the time period from 2001 to 2007 the growth in GDP in UA outstripped GDP growth in Russia percentage wise.  Your whole argument falls apart their pal.

So the ball is again in your court pal.  How about your logic that you know Russia since you were there last week and somehow that confers you expertise in all things Ukraine?  You conveniently sidestep that particular question -
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 18, 2009, 09:21:18 PM

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

I was just reading a recent topic about a scammer from Ivanovo, Russia
Here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8530.msg121529#msg121529




Quote

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.


I took you up on the offer, and tallied up the stories in our Train Wreck Room. A total of 10 stories there. (I excluded the threads on Leo, Loyal, and SVOrookie)  
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=46.0

The results?  7 Russian train wrecks, 3 Ukrainian train wrecks. Clearly not an overwhelming majority of Ukrainian train wrecks as you suggest.

Based on the above, I disagree with your generalizations.


Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 18, 2009, 11:24:04 PM
I'd like to notice that when you hear "Mysterious Russian soul" you should know that it is about Russian soul but not about Ukr. Ukr soul can be read very simply:"pay money (or give a fat piece) and I will love you, or I will be your friend,wife...whatever)".But don't forget that if one day somebody will give biggest piece of fat this friend will betray you and it is a national Ukr character trait. In my opinion it is much better to know that than not to know. For me I'd like to be prepared.

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one  female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expeling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

When you have a colleague -Ukr, you need to expect a treachery one day and we saw one example from a member of this forum also when he wrote about how his wife got second paid job after telling about mistake of a colleague to her boss and dismissal this colleague.Many members here were applauding  "how clever was his wife" but personaly I got a fastidious impression about this wife.

We can debate about if this action was good or bad but what I see it is: Westerns and Russians have different mentalities and we take differently a question about getting of a piece of bread in competitive struggle. To live in a competitve society is ,maybe,normaly for most Westerns but in Russia we were raised to live in a friendship  and it came from Russian blood.Ukrs are different :they have very selfish mentality and I can quess that a question about common background will come again.It is not same: Russians and Ukrs  and Ukr nationalists show it to us last few years.Ukr nationalists are fighting against Russians in Chechen and Georgian armyes.

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.

We all feel sorry for poor Ukr ladies who eat last piece of bread and tommorow maybe will die from a hunger and collect money to send them and give credits,oil,gas for free. Any gratitude? No, they take it like it should be done like that. Have a look at some Ukr girl post here "Do you think that laptop is expensive gift to Ukr girl?" .Laptop is not expensive gift for her.It is normal or even maybe cheap gift.( Is laptop cheap gift for you too? I think "no"). Where did this attitude come from? I personaly can guess.

I think Ukr girls use their country lable "a country with poor economy" with their own benefit with no doubts and recent situation are played very well. Do you feel sorry for them still? take any Ukr lady to your homeland and you will help to Ukr economy.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: BCKev on September 18, 2009, 11:46:32 PM

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.


My experience is the opposite. When times were rough, the RW did nothing to support me. The UW did.

I don't take this as any kind of national trait, but as a part of a person's character.

You keep on trying to put down Ukrainian women. You are telling me nothing about UW, but reveal a lot about your hateful self.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 12:00:16 AM
I'd like to notice that when you hear "Mysterious Russian soul" you should know that it is about Russian soul but not about Ukr. Ukr soul can be read very simply:"pay money (or give a fat piece) and I will love you, or I will be your friend,wife...whatever)".But don't forget that if one day somebody will give biggest piece of fat this friend will betray you and it is a national Ukr character trait. In my opinion it is much better to know that than not to know. For me I'd like to be prepared.

Again please provide proof of this, otherwise it's again your unsubstantiated and prejudiced opinions again.  I could care less about the mysterious Russian soul - it's about the same as the "traditional" woman myth.  I don't know anyone who says "I'm going to Russia for a woman because she has that mysterious Russian soul."


Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one  female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expeling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

So one hotel tells us that all of Ukraine are prostitutes?  And what about the other 10%?  Obviously a fair number of Russian women are prostitutes as well.


When you have a colleague -Ukr, you need to expect a treachery one day and we saw one example from a member of this forum also when he wrote about how his wife got second paid job after telling about mistake of a colleague to her boss and dismissal this colleague.Many members here were applauding  "how clever was his wife" but personaly I got a fastidious impression about this wife.
Not sure what you mean by this...can you clarify please?

We can debate about if this action was good or bad but what I see it is: Westerns and Russians have different mentalities and we take differently a question about getting of a piece of bread in competitive struggle. To live in a competitve society is ,maybe,normaly for most Westerns but in Russia we were raised to live in a friendship  and it came from Russian blood.Ukrs are different :they have very selfish mentality and I can quess that a question about common background will come again.It is not same: Russians and Ukrs  and Ukr nationalists show it to us last few years.Ukr nationalists are fighting against Russians in Chechen and Georgian armyes.

Can you provide proof again about this statement?  Ukraine's fighting against Russians?  Is that surprising considering some of the history between the two countries?  Should Ukraine support Russia in everything?  And in my experience I've experienced more open hospitality and warmness from Ukranians than Russians.

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.

Really?  Is that why my RW ex-wife nearly bankrupt my family and did not lift a finger to help?  That sure doesn't sound like support on a rainy day.  Please provide evidence or else again this is simply your assumptions and prejudices...

We all feel sorry for poor Ukr ladies who eat last piece of bread and tommorow maybe will die from a hunger and collect money to send them and give credits,oil,gas for free. Any gratitude? No, they take it like it should be done like that. Have a look at some Ukr girl post here "Do you think that laptop is expensive gift to Ukr girl?" .Laptop is not expensive gift for her.It is normal or even maybe cheap gift.( Is laptop cheap gift for you too? I think "no"). Where did this attitude come from? I personaly can guess. \

I've also heard of Russian girls asking for a computer or laptop as well.  This does not prove anything. My RW wife asked for far more than my UW wife ever did.  She asked for money to send to her Moscow family all the time.  My UW wife never asks for money for her family.  Again, please provide direct evidence, facts or personal experience as proof or else it's speculation.


I think Ukr girls use their country lable "a country with poor economy" with their own benefit with no doubts and recent situation are played very well. Do you feel sorry for them still? take any Ukr lady to your homeland and you will help to Ukr economy.

Again instead of stating prejudiced opinion please provide facts.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 19, 2009, 12:57:25 AM

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  :'(

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?

Dear Manny

I dated a ethnic Russian lady living in Kiev and she was earning huge money - she certainly didn't need  or want a ticket out of UA.. in fact she wanted ME to move there.. !

YES, there is an economic factor.. and YES UA is worse off than RU, but there *are* ethnic Russian women on sites who live in Latvia and Estonia, too.. The economy of Latvia, in particular, took a big hit..

you know that many women are on these sites because they believe WM make more loyal, reliable, husbands, too !! ;)

You've said it SO many times, I wonder WHY it hasn't sunk in.. the UA is "over-fished"..  Many women  from UA are now "jaded"...  

I don't know if having met with 30 guys before is such a "bad" thing..  I've dated over 30 women in my life ;) .. I DIDN'T sleep with 'em all ... Was THAT what you meant  :-[ ?









Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Chris on September 19, 2009, 02:05:27 AM


. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.




and why does it tend to be American guys that have these train wrecks? sure there will be more travelling over there, but it is rare to hear of a guy from other parts of the world having the same problems.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Chris on September 19, 2009, 02:13:05 AM
Quote from: Manny
For sure, there are many fabulous women in Ukraine. Many of our members are married to them. I know all about the cultural similarities with Russians etc. But it does seem that most "hard luck" stories come from guys involved with women from Ukraine.

Why is it that of all the scams and what not you hear about, they all seem to be situated or are coming from cities in Southern and Eastern Ukraine, areas that are traditionally more pro Russian than anywhere else and of course are closer to the Russian borders than say the cities of Western Ukraine are?

Quote from: FE
Now some cities, Kevi, Kerch, Krivoi Rog, Lusansk, Mariupol, Nikolaev, Odessa, Poltava, Simferpol, Sevastopol, Zaporzhie. Yet for Russia Pskov, and St Pertersburg would be the only two I would list. All of these had a massive numbers of unsolicited letters sent in the dead of night (for the women's dead of night). A lot of them sent within seconds of each other, and would appear in your mailbox all in a row. All sent by agency personal to solicit your business, since the ladies would be fast asleep On that subject the age range starts at 18, and heads toward your own regardless of what your profile states for this. Volume for the two fake profiles was around 500-600 letters, in a couple of weeks. The letters would be the same in all profiles. some even had seconds and thirds sent as well, while I left them active. Some of these ladies are real, some may not be.

I rest my case, most of these cities are in Southern or Eastern Ukraine closer to the Russian border are Russian speaking and are allied to Russia much more than places like Lviv et al and yet you very rarely hear of these stories from the Western parts of the country.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 19, 2009, 02:13:19 AM

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.



Met one RW from Novosibirsk, who robbed husband's family blind after his very quick and sudden death. Gossips were Viagra was involved. He was stupid enough not to have a will at the age of 55+, she got everything, and there was a lot. 3 kids and disabled ex-wife that he supported in nursing home ended up with absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Chris on September 19, 2009, 02:17:34 AM


Shakespear, how much current experience do you have with UW and travel there?  I've been there 8 times in the two years or so, including a 5 week stay.  I've met plenty of UW including the time I initally went on a "tour" to meet UW.  Far fewer women are so eager to leave at this time - you may not believe it but except for the current world financial crises that affects every country, most are doing far better than you think you know.  I've heard a lot of your anti-UW bias on other forums and I can respect that you have an opinion, but I have a LOT more  current in country experience than you do and unless you can back up what you say with actual experience I will take my actual experience over yours thank you.

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more infomation.

When I was there I was in several different cities and I saw a lot of new construction, new western style malls, and more and more amenties for travelers.  My wife's family has plenty of money, and the friends I have there also have plenty of money.  One of my friends bought a $50,000 car for cash to add to his two other cars, replete with in car entertainment system, navigation, etc.  and is building a 3 story house in the Crimea.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

I can say the same Supra, I have been to Ukraine 8 times in the last 18 months, came back only last week, I am doin g business there too,  and although most on here think the people of the Western regions that I travel too are poor humble, village people, there is plenty of cash there and it would surprise most Westerners how much these people can be actually worth in cash terms, not credit terms. Some of the new houses springing up by the hundreds are massive, even compared to Western standards. Sure the country is suffering and business is no where near as good as it was 18 months ago,  but isn't it the same everywhere, but there is tons of money around for many, don't go thinking they are all poor farmers and beggars.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 19, 2009, 03:35:48 AM
I am not going to prove any my word because it is true and because if he asks me  to prove why should I believe what Supra (what a nickname!) writes about his RW without his evidences? It could be something like his ex RW told him the truth about him to his face straight and he didn't like it and now he says that she was bad. I have a right not to believe him and I am not a judge to ask evidences.

Although what evidences do you ask me? What I write it is a generalisation and it came from many ways of observation and an experience.

I have more generalisations: that Vietnam and Chinese people are hardworking people, Russians have "Mysterious Russian soul",all bankirs-jews,all Muslims are circumcised,all Ukr women are ...you know  :nod: and many other generalisations. Don't you personaly know any?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 19, 2009, 06:54:22 AM
[Sources?  I've quoted my sources what are yours.

Regardless, the difference is around 10% between Russia and Ukraine.  That is not "much" more depressed to support your argument that there are more desperate women in Ukraine.  If the difference was 30-40% I'd give you that you have something there.  You don't.  Regardless, the original argument was that you said Ukrainian women are more desperate and your supporting argument was the that Ukraine was "much" more economically depressed.  You have yet to prove that.  And, you have not been to Ukraine to witness firsthand if the women are desperate.  I have and you are wrong there as well. 


-sigh

I'll waste no more time trying to prove the obvious to you.  Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they're open.   

In most categories of evaluation, the differences are MUCH higher than 30-40%.  The economic facts are undeniable.  Until Ukraine further diversifies their economy to reduce Russians dominance as their overwhelming major trading partner, their economy will always be a convex mirror image of the Russian economy.  Perhaps EU membership and 20+ years of economic change will slowly reduce Russian trading dominance - who knows. 

The conclusion about Ukrainian women being more desperate is a sound logical conclusion based on the state of their economy. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 19, 2009, 07:02:30 AM
Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.


You can't be serious?

A 7 to 3 breakdown of 10 stories on an internet chat group is hardily statistically significant data. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 19, 2009, 07:09:11 AM

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expelling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

So one hotel tells us that all of Ukraine are prostitutes?  And what about the other 10%? Obviously a fair number of Russian women are prostitutes as well. 

There is no question that the vast majority of prostitutes working the hotels and train stations of Moscow are illegial Ukrainian residents without proper propiskas.  When you can't get a job at home, you go where you can and do what you can to support your family and children.   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 19, 2009, 09:43:34 AM
I am not going to prove any my word because it is true and because if he asks me  to prove why should I believe what Supra (what a nickname!) writes about his RW without his evidences?

Why should we believe what you write without any evidence? What is your experience, have you lived in Ukraine or only visited? How many Ukrainian people do you know well?

You can't be serious?

A 7 to 3 breakdown of 10 stories on an internet chat group is hardily statistically significant data. 


Shakey, Manny challenged members to "Look in the train wreck room", BCKev did just that.

In addition, how many more members do we have here with "train wrecks" that are not in the TR room? I know BBQ wrote his story on another forum. Bgreed just told about his wife - Ukrainian. Jerico's wife was Russian I believe. Anyone else here?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 19, 2009, 10:16:49 AM
You can't judge the whole nation's values and ethics by looking at a few women who married and in some cases divorced men on these forums. Let's face it - these women are already quite different from the general population.
In order to truly understand the differences one must:
1. become a 100% fluent in the language of the country
2. live there for at least a couple of years, deal with the every day routine, job, lifestyle, people, problems, etc. to really get the feel for it.
By going to Russia and Ukraine several times and spending a couple of weeks at a time, as a tourist without speaking the language you just scratch the surface and think that "now you know", but in fact that's all you did - just scratched the surface a bit...
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 19, 2009, 10:51:48 AM
You can't judge the whole nation's values and ethics by looking at a few women

 If we were to do that with mirror and W/O and make broad speculations as they do then Russia wouldn't be a nice place either.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 11:05:10 AM
[Sources?  I've quoted my sources what are yours.

Regardless, the difference is around 10% between Russia and Ukraine.  That is not "much" more depressed to support your argument that there are more desperate women in Ukraine.  If the difference was 30-40% I'd give you that you have something there.  You don't.  Regardless, the original argument was that you said Ukrainian women are more desperate and your supporting argument was the that Ukraine was "much" more economically depressed.  You have yet to prove that.  And, you have not been to Ukraine to witness firsthand if the women are desperate.  I have and you are wrong there as well. 


-sigh

I'll waste no more time trying to prove the obvious to you.  Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they're open.   

Thank for the wise saying, you should take heed and listen to yourself.  Since around 2001 you've had an irrational unfounded prejudice against UW, constantly warning guys to stay away from them.  Your mind obviously is closed as well.

In most categories of evaluation, the differences are MUCH higher than 30-40%.  The economic facts are undeniable.  Until Ukraine further diversifies their economy to reduce Russians dominance as their overwhelming major trading partner, their economy will always be a convex mirror image of the Russian economy.  Perhaps EU membership and 20+ years of economic change will slowly reduce Russian trading dominance - who knows. 
The conclusion about Ukrainian women being more desperate is a sound logical conclusion based on the state of their economy. 

More than 30-40%?  You were the one who provided the numbers Shakey.  I see far less the 30-40%.  More like about 10% difference.  Were you asleep during math as well Shakey?  You don't have to have to be a math genius...here are you numbers:

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Difference of 3%

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Difference of 8.4%

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

difference of 11.9%

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

difference of 7%

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%
difference of 9%

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

difference of 9%

If you can't do this in your head try a calculator.

The conclusion about Ukrainian women being more desperate is a sound logical conclusion based on the state of their economy. 

It's not a sound logical conclusion Shakey.  If that were the case, the US would also be replete in women wanting to leave, brothels springing up all over the place since many people have lost 50, 60, 70 or 80% of the investments and are either losing their homes or have lost them and tens of thousands of jobs are lost every week.  It isn't.  Just because one thing happens does not mean another thing will follow.  It's false logic, and you obviously were sleeping during Logic 101.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 11:11:03 AM
I am not going to prove any my word because it is true and because if he asks me  to prove why should I believe what Supra (what a nickname!) writes about his RW without his evidences? It could be something like his ex RW told him the truth about him to his face straight and he didn't like it and now he says that she was bad. I have a right not to believe him and I am not a judge to ask evidences.

Although what evidences do you ask me? What I write it is a generalisation and it came from many ways of observation and an experience.

I have more generalisations: that Vietnam and Chinese people are hardworking people, Russians have "Mysterious Russian soul",all bankirs-jews,all Muslims are circumcised,all Ukr women are ...you know  :nod: and many other generalisations. Don't you personaly know any?

You talk in general and do not cite specific examples.  If you cited examples either from facts or your own real personal experience I'd take it a bit more seriously.  If you told us your best friend saw 38 prostitutes in UA and none in Russia that we can accept.  However, you have not, instead you make broad sweeping statements such as "UA is prostitutes" which we all know is not true and I've already disproven it and it's clear you are prejudiced.  Or are you going to tell me that my wife is a prostite as well as the women in her family?  In my experience I've seen a lot more prostitutes in Moscow than I have in UA and that is my experience which backs up my arguments.

You don't have to believe me about my ex-RW but that is the assumption that everyone makes here, that when they talk about their own actual personal experience they are telling the truth.  I speak the simple truth - my RW ex-wife nearly bankrupt the family - that has nothing to do with what she says.  I've not quoted her at all, just cited my experience with her.  It's a simple fact, her Moscow family was always asking for money, my UW wife's family never asks for money from me.  If I had to prove my own experience with my RW ex-wife, we might as well all never cite our own personal experience as no one can prove it.  If I said "my RW wife was very kind to me," to prove a point and I was asked to prove it, we might as well ask everyone to provide videos, photographs and sworn court testimony to prove our own personal experience.  It's a stupid assumption mirror and again evidence of your losing argument.  We all have to make a basic assumption here and it is that we are all telling the truth when we say we experienced this or experienced that.  Will you next ask me to provide a marriage certificate to prove my marriage and divorce to my RW ex-wife and current UA wife? 

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 11:16:07 AM

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expelling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

So one hotel tells us that all of Ukraine are prostitutes?  And what about the other 10%? Obviously a fair number of Russian women are prostitutes as well. 

There is no question that the vast majority of prostitutes working the hotels and train stations of Moscow are illegial Ukrainian residents without proper propiskas.  When you can't get a job at home, you go where you can and do what you can to support your family and children.   

No question of it?  Ahhh so now you're omniscient eh Shakey?  Get real, produce real evidence of it.  Have you or someone done a census checking passports and verifying it?  Till then it's speculation and again your prejudices here.  I'm sure some of the prostitutes are probably from UA, just as I'm sure some of them are Russian women too.  There's a reason why Russian women are frequently viewed with suspicion in the US - many of them come here to make money as strip dancers and prostitutes as well if the news stories are to be believed.

Now come on, we've strayed a bit from the original postulation - your idea that women are desperate to leave UA.  You have yet to prove that.  All you've done is put forth speculation that may or may not be true, and have no proven causation with women being desperate to marry foreign men.  A closed mind may not work but you seemingly have a mind that simply does not work, period.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 11:17:49 AM
Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.


You can't be serious?

A 7 to 3 breakdown of 10 stories on an internet chat group is hardily statistically significant data.  

So what data points would you provide to prove otherwise?  On the one hand you want us to believe you with your weeks of Russia in country experience and ZERO in country experience in UA.  You barely even qualify as a statistic point then.  On the other hand when more statistic points than your own is provided you question it.  Sounds to me like you wan to be the self proclaimed expert on Russia and Ukraine.  Get off your high horse Shakey.  You hardly qualify as an expert.  In fact, I would qualify as more of an expert than you since I've been married to a woman from each country and spent time in both countries.  But I would never be so arrogant as to proclaim something like that based on my own experience.

Please provide additional data points then.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 19, 2009, 01:34:25 PM
More than 30-40%?  You were the one who provided the numbers Shakey.  I see far less the 30-40%.  More like about 10% difference.  Were you asleep during math as well Shakey?  You don't have to have to be a math genius...here are you numbers:  

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%
Difference of 3%

How dense can you be?  Somebody slept through Business Statistics class but it sure wasn't me.  While it is a 3% DIFFERENCE between the numbers it would be 22.4% WORSE than Russia.  (16.4 - 13.4 = 3.0 /13.4 = 22.4% WORSE than Russia)  

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%
Difference of 8.4%

Try again.  23.3 - 14.9 = 8.4 / 14.9 = 56.4% WORSE than Russia

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%
difference of 11.9%  

Not even close - 15.0 - 3.9 = 11/1 /3.9 = 284.6% WORSE than Russia

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%
difference of 7%  

...sigh...38-31 = 7/31 = 24% WORSE than Russia

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%
difference of 9%  

Again - 12 - 3 = 9 / 3 = 300% WORSE than Russia

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%
difference of 9%

53.3 - 44.3 = 9 /44.3 = 20.3% BETTER than Ukraine

Again, I'm done trying to explain something that is indisputable to you.  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 02:11:02 PM
Shakey you are only manipulating numbers to suit yourself.   You divide the numbers to suit yourself to make it look like things are a lot worse in UA than Russia when in fact it's not.  I'll use a simple example to show you how childishly simplistic you are in trying to manipulate the numbers.  Say Olga and Tanya each make $1000 a month.  Say the next year their GDP reduced 10% and 15% respectively so that Olga now makes $900 a month and Tanya makes $850 a month.  The realistic way to look at it is that Tanya saw 5% more of a decrease.  The difference in their buying power is $50 a month, a 5% difference, which does not make Tanya "much" more depressed than Olga.  In YOUR math however, Tanya saw a 50% decrease over Olga and thus, because she her GDP was reduced by 50% and that $50 really killed her ability to survive, she now takes a train to Moscow every day to be a prostitute or she has decided she is going to look for a much older grandfather from the US to take care of her.  See the difference?  The difference is I talk to real world finance guys who make millions of dollars doing what they do, you dabble around a bit in the stock market and think you're an expert.  The difference is you dabble a bit in stocks while I invest in and have been building businesses in emerging countries for the last 15 years or so - I have to know the economy or me and my business partners would not make money.  While you walk around in Russia proclaiming you're an expert in business, my partners and I are busy establishing satellite offices in foreign countries for our business ventures.

And you STILL have not provided correlation that says that supposedly women from UA are more willing to date a much older guy because of their economy.  You still maintain that because of your in country experience in Russia that you are expert in UA - I guess if we carried that further that because you live in the US you must be an expert on Mexico and Canada too eh?

Get real Shakespear, you have not proven a single thing to support your prejudice and IGNORANCE of UA.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 19, 2009, 02:24:46 PM

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

I was just reading a recent topic about a scammer from Ivanovo, Russia
Here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8530.msg121529#msg121529




Quote

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.


I took you up on the offer, and tallied up the stories in our Train Wreck Room. A total of 10 stories there. (I excluded the threads on Leo, Loyal, and SVOrookie) 
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=46.0

The results?  7 Russian train wrecks, 3 Ukrainian train wrecks. Clearly not an overwhelming majority of Ukrainian train wrecks as you suggest.

Based on the above, I disagree with your generalizations.


Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.


People didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say "Look in our train wreck room", I said "Read the train wrecks" - quite different. Perhaps I was not clear.

Participants here read many places; not just here. The "train wreck" stories are on every forum, even the archives of the closed and abandoned ones. They are on scam sites, blogs........ everywhere. Anyone read the now locked Russian Detective forums? When you read enough of them, you begin to form an opinion. How do you think Lugansk and Odessa got the reputations they have?  ::)

I mentioned my opinion, based on non scientific conclusions I have formed from many years of reading this type of stuff across many websites. I also formed my conclusion from men I and/or my wife have worked with. Men ask my wife for her verification and evaluation service. That's often when a guy suspects me might be getting set up to be stiffed. Most of those calls are destination Ukraine.

There are no statistics for this stuff anywhere I know of. People can only muse based on their opinion; an opinion that has been honed from experience and/or reading. I am not presenting my opinion as gospel; I am presenting it as my opinion. You can take it or leave it.

I apologize if I was not clear enough yesterday, but I hope that now puts in context my comment:

Quote
Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

Read the GCG stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the DV in the US stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the "Wife split" type topics: Mostly Ukraine.

For sure, there are many fabulous women in Ukraine. Many of our members are married to them. I know all about the cultural similarities with Russians etc. But it does seem that most "hard luck" stories come from guys involved with women from Ukraine.

When did we last read about a green card girl from Russia? From Moldova? From Lithuania? From Kaliningrad?

For sure, the figures may appear skewed because for some reason Americans all flock to Ukraine over Russia. Lets debate that maybe?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 02:37:26 PM
Manny I suspect the answer is probably that more men go to UA than Russia.  Just as there is a simple fact that the vast majority of shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water or less - someone like Shakespear would make the conclusion that it's because most sharks live in 3 ft deep water - when in fact the reason most shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water is because that's where more people spend their time at the beach, in 3 ft of water or less.  My most current "go around" looking for someone in the FSU, all the scammers I ran across were only from Russia, none from UA.  If my name were Shakey I'd conclude then that all scammers must be from Russia and I should hightail it over to UA asap.  Of course we are going to get guys like Shakey who pull disparate information and try to link them together as fact and stitch it together with faux logic.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 19, 2009, 02:48:32 PM
Manny I suspect the answer is probably that more men go to UA than Russia.  Just as there is a simple fact that the vast majority of shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water or less - someone like Shakespear would make the conclusion that it's because most sharks live in 3 ft deep water - when in fact the reason most shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water is because that's where more people spend their time at the beach, in 3 ft of water or less. 

We should leave the "Guys like Shaky" out of this. Don't make it personal. Lets debate the topic at hand like adults.

It is true that perhaps 70% (my guestimate) of Russian speaking women seekers are American. A great many of those guys go to Ukraine (for reasons best known to themselves). It might stand to reason that more scam stories come out of Ukraine for that reason. Lets discuss that?

Lets also discuss the relationship between economics of a country and the desire of the resident women to export themselves? Economics plays a big part in motivation; be that motivation for self-export or motivation for scamming. It therefore stands to reason that poorer countries have more "mail-order bride" activity; which they do. This is further proved by the more affluent FSU countries exporting fewer women than the less affluent ones.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: hemingway on September 19, 2009, 03:48:47 PM
So, if the western economies sink lower, there will be "mail order grooms" from the west?  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 03:52:37 PM
Manny I suspect the answer is probably that more men go to UA than Russia.  Just as there is a simple fact that the vast majority of shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water or less - someone like Shakespear would make the conclusion that it's because most sharks live in 3 ft deep water - when in fact the reason most shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water is because that's where more people spend their time at the beach, in 3 ft of water or less. 

We should leave the "Guys like Shaky" out of this. Don't make it personal. Lets debate the topic at hand like adults.

It is true that perhaps 70% (my guestimate) of Russian speaking women seekers are American. A great many of those guys go to Ukraine (for reasons best known to themselves). It might stand to reason that more scam stories come out of Ukraine for that reason. Lets discuss that?

Lets also discuss the relationship between economics of a country and the desire of the resident women to export themselves? Economics plays a big part in motivation; be that motivation for self-export or motivation for scamming. It therefore stands to reason that poorer countries have more "mail-order bride" activity; which they do. This is further proved by the more affluent FSU countries exporting fewer women than the less affluent ones.

Further proved?  I'd say it's far from proved as there is not shown to be a direct correlation between a country's economics and the likelihood that they will have more mail order bride activity, otherwise countries like Laos, India, Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekestan, and Krygystan should have a thriving mail order bride business exceeding that of Russia and Ukraine. They don't.   Economics plays a part but a bigger part is the accessibility of a country which is why more men go to UA than Russia.  Don't fall into fallacies of logic.  Just because 2 things exist in proximity to each other does not prove causation.  People in 3 ft of water, and shark attacks in 3 ft of water does not prove shark's primary habitat is 3 ft of water.  More scam stories out of Ukraine? Is this a guesstimate or supported by actual evidence?  If there are more I suspect it is because more WM go to UA than any other reason.  Have enough people swim in 3 ft of water and they will experience more sharks than people in 10 ft of water.  Doesn't mean that 3 ft is safer - in reality it's not.  Most of my big shark encounters (including a 12 ft 1,000 lb. hammerhead shark) have been in 10-15 ft of water.  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 19, 2009, 03:59:02 PM
I'd say it's far from proved as there is not shown to be a direct correlation between a country's economics and the likelihood that they will have more mail order bride activity, otherwise countries like Laos, India, Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan should have a thriving mail order bride business exceeding that of Russia and Ukraine. They don't.

You're ignoring the FACT that Caucasian men generally prefer Caucasian Christian women for marriage.  None of the countries you listed have a majority of Caucasian Christian women.   




Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 04:37:35 PM
I'd say it's far from proved as there is not shown to be a direct correlation between a country's economics and the likelihood that they will have more mail order bride activity, otherwise countries like Laos, India, Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan should have a thriving mail order bride business exceeding that of Russia and Ukraine. They don't.

You're ignoring the FACT that Caucasian men generally prefer Caucasian Christian women for marriage.  None of the countries you listed have a majority of Caucasian Christian women.   


I'm not ignoring the fact.  The "stans" mentioned have signficant Caucasian populations and were part of the USSR at one time and thus are FSU countries.  One of the members here (BillyB) IIRC is married to a woman from Tashkent, a pretty, blonde Caucasian woman. 

And maybe you have been hiding in a hole but Asian women are frequently desired by Caucasian men as well.  All of my pretty Asian female friends have no shortage of Caucasian men hitting on them.  There is a thriving business for WM to go to places like the Phillipines, Thailand etc in large part for the women there - you should know, your buddy Winston Wu found his paradise there and has a kid there with a 19 yo girl.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: WestCoast on September 19, 2009, 05:59:19 PM

otherwise countries like Laos, India, Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekestan, and Krygystan should have a thriving mail order bride business exceeding that of Russia and Ukraine. They don't.  

Supranatural of the countries that you've listed Egypt is one of the richer countries in the middle East.  Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan are overwhelming Muslim countries. Muslim woman can't marry outside of their religion therefore the man must convert.  Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan are also rural countries and more corrupt than Russia or Ukraine, a remarkable achievement in itself. 

India despite the world economic downturn still has an expanding GDP and does have a thriving mail order bride business.  In India it is called "arranged marriages".  In Canada these "arranged marriages" easily outpace the FSU mail order bride business.  I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true in the UK, which has a large Indian population, probably also true in the USA.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 19, 2009, 06:12:37 PM

otherwise countries like Laos, India, Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekestan, and Krygystan should have a thriving mail order bride business exceeding that of Russia and Ukraine. They don't.  

Supranatural of the countries that you've listed Egypt is one of the richer countries in the middle East.  Egypt, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan are overwhelming Muslim countries. Muslim woman can't marry outside of their religion therefore the man must convert.  Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan are also rural countries

Egypt is a third world country with a lower GDP per capita than Russia or UA.  Outside of the tourist areas it's dirt poor, pretty much a real sh*thole.  I've been there twice...it's not pretty.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 19, 2009, 06:29:05 PM
Manny

Would be hard to show whether poorer economic conditions have increased the ones actually wanting to leave, and move to another country. Yet I have seen more Russian profiles popping up here, then in times past. Ones that have already decided to immigrate and have arrived, as singles. But they may have already made that choice prior to the conditions going down the tube, considering the time involved in the immigration process. Yet it is an indication that some had decided to leave, similar to Belle. But if Immigration increases then you could draw some conclusion from that, but that would take time for results to be shown.

Now the only place that may indicated this is those sites that promote MOB. But I doubt anyone has any stats before or after the crisis for the numbers looking. The only one I can offer that prior to the crisis only abut 70 women would be up at 3:00 am in the morning (their time) waiting to chat to men, when I did my test. Now at the same time today there are 210. Would seem to me that an increase in of 3 times the number would represent the crisis has increased the number in the bad side of the business. Would make it easier for those  agencies to convince women to do this, if they need more money. But unless the method was already in place, I doubt if many could afford to start a new one up. :nod:
 
But I would expect the crisis to increase the number of prodaters, women working for an agency , as well as "dates: with men going for various benefits, without them actually ever wanting to leave their own country.  :(
 
Now for the more legitimate side the same would apply, stats would be needed from before and after. Unless those who did back then can look again and see if they remember if that site seems to have an increase or not in the number of women looking now. If the same, then no impact, if more, then it probably does have a correlation to the crisis. The same would apply to a given country if that is their preference, does it seem more or the same. Those Stans may be easier for that since they would have had the fewer amount looking before.  
  
 

    
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 19, 2009, 11:11:57 PM
It is funny to read questions to Mirror like "how many Ukrs did you meet in your life?" or something like that.  ;D I have a chance to live with them next and I know what is it Ukr better than you (visitors) know. If you will ask me about Kazakstan,Uzbekistan,Moldova,Baltic republics...I will tell you not less about people and a life there also. I know a hystory of all these countryes and folks and let me hope that you know from where I know it.


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 19, 2009, 11:32:23 PM
It is funny to read questions to Mirror like "how many Ukrs did you meet in your life?" or something like that.  ;D I have a chance to live with them next and I know what is it Ukr better than you (visitors) know. If you will ask me about Kazakstan,Uzbekistan,Moldova,Baltic republics...I will tell you not less about people and a life there also. I know a hystory of all these countryes and folks and let me hope that you know from where I know it.




Mirror, they googled it, therefore they know everything  :laugh:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 19, 2009, 11:37:46 PM
Ah,maybe. As I know there is this false scamm information about me still.

I am sure (I know a character of Wiz) he is checking Google every day by trying to save this false about me in internet for a public.  :evilgrin0002:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 19, 2009, 11:46:19 PM
"Не тронь г...вно",как говорится. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: nunya on September 20, 2009, 01:12:50 AM
Supernatural I have read the post's between you and brad sharp and I think most, their will be exceptions, more than likey manny, but most people reading of the differences between you and brad sharp will see that you know what you are talking and writing about.   Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 20, 2009, 02:59:14 AM
 Keep up the good work.

You should pay Surpa for helping you to do your business.If I remember you are dating Ukr girls with Westerns.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 20, 2009, 05:41:44 AM

You should pay Surpa for helping you to do your business.If I remember you are dating Ukr girls with Westerns.

Dear Mirror, and what reasoning would you use for Chris, or myself ? ;)

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 20, 2009, 08:03:25 AM
Supernatural I have read the post's between you and brad sharp and I think most, their will be exceptions, more than likey Manny, but most people reading of the differences between you and Brad Sharp will see that you know what you are talking and writing about.   Keep up the good work.

Spoken like a man with no vested financial self-interest in convincing gullable men that Ukrainian women have no other motivation for marriage than love in spite of a 20-year age difference.  Jack = zero credibility.   :ROFL:   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 20, 2009, 08:16:33 AM
I made no comment on the motives of the women or men involved. I just commented on the economic situation as I saw it. Yes, there are some pockets of affluence but they are definitely the exception. I am not trying to denigrate Ukraine. I like being there---and feel comfortable there. I have been to many countries around the world and I know "economic difficulty" when I see it.

So what if one of the reasons she wants to be with you is to have a more "secure" life. If that is the only reason she wants to be with you surely you can tell. Any sensible woman anywhere wants to feel safe and cared for in a relationship. Women I date here have the same concerns.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 20, 2009, 08:26:42 AM

So what if one of the reasons she wants to be with you is to have a more "secure" life. If that is the only reason she wants to be with you surely you can tell. Any sensible woman anywhere wants to feel safe and cared for in a relationship. Women I date here have the same concerns.

yes....usually women has such reason as well....but just be sure that this is not 1st and main reason which was based on some myth about life in  foreigner country's  :biggrin:


 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Boris on September 20, 2009, 08:28:35 AM

So what if one of the reasons she wants to be with you is to have a more "secure" life. If that is the only reason she wants to be with you surely you can tell. Any sensible woman anywhere wants to feel safe and cared for in a relationship. Women I date here have the same concerns.

yes....usually women has such reason as well....but just be sure that this is not 1st and main reason which was based on some myth about life in  foreigner country's  :biggrin:


 

Well said, Anjutka.  :)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 20, 2009, 09:09:25 AM
Now since I have received two letters from Ukrainian women in the last two days, and the same city, from a site not known for having a lot of FSU women on it from other countries, I would say an increase is happening now. Seems they are expanding that search to other areas, if English is part of their language skills.   :chuckle: Manny's comment and those letters had me wondering, so I checked in more depth something I has not done for a while on this one.  8)

Now browsing by countries, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia, Belarus, Estonia, three of the Stan's, Ukraine, and also unknown before, Russia. The majority of these profiles have been set up in the last few months, Aug and Sept. Some earlier, going back to Feb of this year. The Russian ones I have doubts about, since all the ladies are on line at the same time, no matter what time of day it is here. Unusual for all to be on at the same time, yet they are still around after a couple of months. But I may check one out and comfirm that theory. The Ukrainian ones account for over half of the total number, for those countries, I did a check on. The ages range from 24 to 54 for the women's profiles in most cases. Some have even been set up in the last few days, since they are listed as such for a while. I expect more will arrive as well. For the stans they are all Asian except for two, one white,  Another listed as other.  ???

Economic conditions could easily be the reason, for such an increase, on a site outside the norm for it. Gentlemen you may want to check your own as well.  tiphat    

But while on, I received a nice letter from a 35 year old women from New York City. Seems Fat Yuri is already in love with me, and we have not even met yet.  :-* It is so nice too have that impact right at the beginning of a relationship.  :nod: Goggling her letter brings up references to a lady name Olga, and she is looking for a special relationship.  :laugh:      
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 20, 2009, 10:23:45 AM
Supernatural I have read the post's between you and brad sharp and I think most, their will be exceptions, more than likey Manny, but most people reading of the differences between you and Brad Sharp will see that you know what you are talking and writing about.   Keep up the good work.

Spoken like a man with no vested financial self-interest in convincing gullable men that Ukrainian women have no other motivation for marriage than love in spite of a 20-year age difference.  Jack = zero credibility.   :ROFL:   

Shakespear, you have very little (and again I am being generous) credibility when it comes to UA women especially when you try to extrapolate your Moscow experience with them.

Shakespear, can you please point out where on Jack's website or his posts where he advises men to pursue women with 20+ years difference in ages?  And Shakespear, don't you have some financial interests in setting men up with RW as well?  I seem to recall an example with Winston Wu as well and a flat you have...or did I recall incorrectly?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 20, 2009, 10:30:37 AM
Seems Fat Yuri is already in love with me, and we have not even met yet.  :-* It is so nice too have that impact right at the beginning of a relationship.  :nod: Goggling her letter brings up references to a lady name Olga, and she is looking for a special relationship.  :laugh:      

Dear FE,

I NEVER understand why men-folk "boast" or even comment about receiving such letters...  both Mrs Moby and I get them ...even, now.. ;)

They just go STRAIGHT into the "round file" !
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 20, 2009, 10:37:07 AM
Now since I have received two letters from Ukrainian women in the last two days, and the same city, from a site not known for having a lot of FSU women on it from other countries, I would say an increase is happening now. Seems they are expanding that search to other areas, if English is part of their language skills.   :chuckle: Manny's comment and those letters had me wondering, so I checked in more depth something I has not done for a while on this one.  8)

Now browsing by countries, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia, Belarus, Estonia, three of the Stan's, Ukraine, and also unknown before, Russia. The majority of these profiles have been set up in the last few months, Aug and Sept. Some earlier, going back to Feb of this year. The Russian ones I have doubts about, since all the ladies are on line at the same time, no matter what time of day it is here. Unusual for all to be on at the same time, yet they are still around after a couple of months. But I may check one out and comfirm that theory. The Ukrainian ones account for over half of the total number, for those countries, I did a check on. The ages range from 24 to 54 for the women's profiles in most cases. Some have even been set up in the last few days, since they are listed as such for a while. I expect more will arrive as well. For the stans they are all Asian except for two, one white,  Another listed as other.  ???

Economic conditions could easily be the reason, for such an increase, on a site outside the norm for it. Gentlemen you may want to check your own as well.  tiphat    

But while on, I received a nice letter from a 35 year old women from New York City. Seems Fat Yuri is already in love with me, and we have not even met yet.  :-* It is so nice too have that impact right at the beginning of a relationship.  :nod: Goggling her letter brings up references to a lady name Olga, and she is looking for a special relationship.  :laugh:      

Fireeater, some interesting research.  However, it may support my contention about economic conditions as a motivating factor.  It may very well be a factor but not nowhere near as great as Shakespear would believe, otherwise some of the "stans", which are far worse off than UA and Russia, should have more women than the other countries.  The fact that they don't supports my contention that there has not been shown to be a direct correlation between the two.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: alenika on September 20, 2009, 10:42:27 AM
I NEVER understand why men-folk "boast" or even comment about receiving such letters...  both Mrs Moby and I get them ...even, now.. ;) They just go STRAIGHT into the "round file" !
People should boast at least of something, how cannot you understand this  ;D  :P
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 20, 2009, 10:47:32 AM
It is funny to read questions to Mirror like "how many Ukrs did you meet in your life?" or something like that.  ;D I have a chance to live with them next and I know what is it Ukr better than you (visitors) know.

So now you've lived in Ukraine?  For how long?  How many prostitutes did you know?  As far as marriages to WM, how many did you know who were married to WM and how many of those marriages were motivated by money?  How about compared to RW marriages to WM?  How many do you know to compare to the UW-WM marriages?

I can point to my own personal experiences which mirror at least one other person on this site that refutes your statement that "Russian women will stand by you on a rainy day."

If you will ask me about Kazakstan,Uzbekistan,Moldova,Baltic republics...I will tell you not less about people and a life there also. I know a hystory of all these countryes and folks and let me hope that you know from where I know it.

Your "history" that you were taught, just like the ones taught in many countries, is part truth and part propaganda.  If you weren't there living it, your idea of the history, regardless of who taught it, is no better than what someone can find and read about on their own.  It's one reason I've traveled, to talk to the actual people and see what their culture is rather than read about it.  

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 20, 2009, 10:55:28 AM
Msmoby, Not a boast, but some light humor along with a warning to others, that on a legimate site here, Fat Yuri will find a way to entice men into his game. Did you notice the city it came from. Most I get on this site are listed, for the city being in the USA, not the FSU. Since he she has lasted now five days, they may be changing their tatics, again.  :nod:

Now what are you and the lovely wife doing on dating sites, to receive such wonderful, and ego building letters.   :laugh:


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 20, 2009, 11:02:19 AM
Your "history" that you were taught, just like the ones taught in many countries, is part truth and part propaganda.  If you weren't there living it, your idea of the history, regardless of who taught it, is no better than what someone can find and read about on their own.  It's one reason I've traveled, to talk to the actual people and see what their culture is rather than read about it.  
very good point Supra man! (although I'm more of a 300ZX fan myself )
The "history" that was taught by the Soviet school system to Mirror's (and my) generation was mostly communist propaganda and was rewritten to the specs of the Communist party ideology standart.
Some people of Mirror's (and my) generation realise this and are open ,to learning a more impartial version of history. Others can't move beyond the brainwashing that occurred during their childhood and youth years.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 20, 2009, 11:05:55 AM
very good point Supra man! (although I'm more of a 300ZX fan myself )
The "history" that was taught by the Soviet school system to Mirror's (and my) generation was mostly communist propaganda and was rewritten to the specs of the Communist party ideology standart.
Some people of Mirror's (and my) generation realise this and are open ,to learning a more impartial version of history. Others can't move beyond the brainwashing that occurred during their childhood and youth years.  

Ya got a point there Eduard.  

My wife still believes the Apollo moon landing of 1969 were filmed on a Hollywood back lot and that the US never really landed a man on the moon.  
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 20, 2009, 11:08:58 AM
Msmoby, Not a boast, but some light humor along with a warning to others, that on a legimate site here, Fat Yuri will find a way to entice men into his game. Did you notice the city it came from. Most I get on this site are listed, for the city being in the USA, not the FSU. Since he she has lasted now five days, they may be changing their tatics, again.  :nod:

Now what are you and the lovely wife doing on dating sites, to receive such wonderful, and ego building letters.   :laugh:




Hi FE,

 I did say "boast" or comment..  

Neither of is have been listed for three years or more, but we both get emails from Julia, Olga "looking for their soul-mate" !

It is so "normal" it is hardly worth commenting on ..  

Some advice .. buy a domain - create a global popmail account (.e. *@mydomain.com)  and use a different email address for all site registrations  and lady.. you'll soon find out who is selling your email addy ! Spend a little money on a GOOD spam filter for that domain.

We rarely get 'em now, but when they do, they are just added to the black list ..

Men who respond to such obviously silly emails that "arrive" out of the blue.. especially, if they are members of sites like this..  Hmm..

Hi Alenika, if it OK to "boast" then Thank GOD for Veta and that site which a certain "expert" member tells us is "short" on Marriage minded women  :ROFL:


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 20, 2009, 11:10:42 AM
[trolling removed]
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 20, 2009, 11:41:29 AM
[trolling removed]
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Manny on September 20, 2009, 11:44:23 AM
very good point Supra man! (although I'm more of a 300ZX fan myself )
The "history" that was taught by the Soviet school system to Mirror's (and my) generation was mostly communist propaganda and was rewritten to the specs of the Communist party ideology standart.
Some people of Mirror's (and my) generation realise this and are open ,to learning a more impartial version of history. Others can't move beyond the brainwashing that occurred during their childhood and youth years.  

Ya got a point there Eduard.  

My wife still believes the Apollo moon landing of 1969 were filmed on a Hollywood back lot and that the US never really landed a man on the moon.  

Many Russians believe the same. It does make one wonder why they never went back again and why the shadows were all wrong eh?  :-X
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 20, 2009, 11:51:20 AM
Took about 15 minutes to come up with these stats for three other sites

Elenas

Russian women on site 3571, new profiles 263, Ukraine women 2048, new profiles, 110.

Lucky Lovers

Russian women on site 60,397, Ukrainian women 31,630 New profiles are not in search feature, at least from outside the system, but looking from the first page there are some as dates are listed as to when they joined.  

Free Personals

Russian women 10,087, Ukrainian women 4205 Again no quick search feature for new ones but there are.  


Note - stats taken from the total number of pages for any country and multiplied by the number of profiles per page. Also noted far more Russians then Ukrainians on these sites.  


Now one could draw a conclusion between high priced sites and ones that are moderately priced for what is occurring for the numbers, in both major countries. Or does someone want to dispute actual numbers and facts from the sites themselves.    

For those other areas such as the Stans and others indicate some couturiers have a bigger preference for cert an systems, yet a quick look indicates new profiles, but are on the system you would have to manually count. But the number on these systems shows they can be found it just depends on what system you may be using. For a country like Estonia, 161 women registered, of those 34 were register this year, on one site alone. Seems high for a country not normally having women look.  tiphat        
 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: anjutka on September 20, 2009, 11:58:12 AM
Took about 15 minutes to come up with these stats for three other sites

Elenas

Russian women on site 3571, new profiles 263, Ukraine women 2048, new profiles, 110.

Lucky Lovers

Russian women on site 60,397, Ukrainian women 31,630 New profiles are not in search feature, at least from outside the system, but looking from the first page there are some as dates are listed as to when they joined.  

Free Personals

Russian women 10,087, Ukrainian women 4205 Again no quick search feature for new ones but there are.  


Note - stats taken from the total number of pages for any country and multiplied by the number of profiles per page. Also noted far more Russians then Ukrainians on these sites.  


Now one could draw a conclusion between high priced sites and ones that are moderately priced for what is occurring for the numbers, in both major countries. Or does someone want to dispute actual numbers and facts from the sites themselves.    

For those other areas such as the Stans and others indicate some couturiers have a bigger preference for cert an systems, yet a quick look indicates new profiles, but are on the system you would have to manually count. But the number on these systems shows they can be found it just depends on what system you may be using. For a country like Estonia, 161 women registered, of those 34 were register this year, on one site alone. Seems high for a country not normally having women look.  tiphat        
 

....could be good if you finalize this)))...could you calculate the % of women in sites by country  from women's population at each country?)))))))))))))))))))))))))) :popcorn:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: nunya on September 20, 2009, 12:11:58 PM

Spoken like a man with no vested financial self-interest in convincing gullable men that Ukrainian women have no other motivation for marriage than love.  Jack= zero credibility.   :ROFL:    



Spoken like a man with no vested financial self-interest in convincing gullable men that Russian women have no other motivation for marriage.  Brad = minus 1000 credibility.   :ROFL:



manny, is this reply ok?

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 20, 2009, 12:15:36 PM
Took about 15 minutes to come up with these stats for three other sites

Elenas

Russian women on site 3571, new profiles 263, Ukraine women 2048, new profiles, 110.

Lucky Lovers

Russian women on site 60,397, Ukrainian women 31,630 New profiles are not in search feature, at least from outside the system, but looking from the first page there are some as dates are listed as to when they joined.   

Free Personals

Russian women 10,087, Ukrainian women 4205 Again no quick search feature for new ones but there are. 


OK good data.  Now lets put those figures into focus with the following information -

From CIA Factbook:

Female Population Ukraine - age 15-64:  16,742,612
Female Population Russia - age 15-64:    52,142,313

Granted not all these women are in the marriage eligible universe, but I think the data relevant enough to establish my point.

This data shows Russia has 3.11 marriage-aged women for every 1 Ukrainian woman.  Wouldn't you naturally expect the Russian number on agency sites to to be 3.11x higher than Ukraine just by accounting for the population difference?  If the ratio is lower than this, then wouldn't it show that Ukrainian women are participating more that Russian women? 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 20, 2009, 12:21:20 PM
Msmoby,

Just kidding you about yours,  ;D

But isn't Julie married now, and has stopped looking. or is she broswing in case a change is needed.   :chuckle:

You may have missed the word "dating site" and usually they last roughly two days at the most, before deleted by the site themselves. (profile that is, letters stay till you delete them, but you can no longer respond, unless they have that alternate address on them.). They can come in by IM or by email to you on this site. Never said I was responding, just that this one has changed tactics to avoid being deleted as quickly, but I expect it will be not long before it is. But still it is nice to be loved so quickly, even by Fat Yuri.  :laugh:

I never see them here in my personal email address. So those filters work better then yours. Nor do I get pop ups either :chuckle:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 20, 2009, 12:47:21 PM
[trolling removed]

 Now that's the best line she's ever posted!! :party0031:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 20, 2009, 12:55:30 PM
Shaky

Those figure for population is what you would expect for all sites you actually look at and checked the numbers for.

Yet I have already listed two in this thread for high price sites which show the opposite is true for that ratio. The higher number of women is from the smaller population, yet switches around for those more moderately priced ones or free ones. Which is what you should see for all sites not just certain ones. So if population is the determining factor it should  be the same. Yet those different type of sites show reversing roles. Draw a conclusion from that if you can. Not a pleasant one either is it.    

Also would seem certain countries tend to use different systems for that actually looking part. Ones that do not have the same restrictions, or that agency base is not as frequent in that country as in others, Or maybe you can draw the conclusion some are more serious then others and use systems that are more likely to produce a good result.

Now take Estonia 161 on free personals, 9 on Elena's, Lucky lovers 2051, The country is not even listed on the high price sites. So it is harder to come up with stats for some of the other countries one be interested in or not. Could be also why some areas still are not looked at more closer, hard to locate where they may be listed.  :nod:    
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 20, 2009, 12:58:03 PM
Mirror, you are having a bad day, sweetie. Here is something that will make you laugh and relax: I particularly liked: Профеcсиональное заболевание программиста – плоскопопие.


                      Афоризмы от В.Шендеровича


 - От ваших хачапури у нас пучит хари ....

- Тот, кто смеется последним ,… просто не врубился сразу.

 - Жил в суровых клизматических условиях ...

 - Трудно собирать выбитые зубы сломаными руками.

 - Государство есть совокупность отдельно взятых чиновников, придающих личной выгоде статус общественных интересов.

 - Знаете, что такое 'изумительный лифчик '? Вы его снимаете и изумляетесь 'а где же груди!?'

 - Противозачаточная внешность.

 - Стучитесь! И вас откопают.

 - В каждом человеке, даже в самом плохом, можно найти что -то хорошее. Для   этого его нужно как следует обыскать... (из  инструкции для милиционеров дежурных частей ОВД).

- Возможности медицины беспредельны. Ограничены возможности пациентов.

- Переименовать - доберман в злобендог.

 - Семинар, посвященный проблемам путешествия во времени, будет проведен две недели назад.

- Твоя теща болтает так, как будто у нее два языка.   - Да нет, один, но раздвоенный.

 - Может, тебе и ключ от квартиры, где девки лежат?

 - Во время пьянки мы чувствуем себя личностью. Наутро - организмом.

 - Что ж это за пьянка, если на следующий день не стыдно?

 - Профеcсиональное заболевание программиста – плоскопопие.

 - Я такие сумки с базара ношу - лошади оборачиваются!

 - Долг утюгом страшен.

 - Обдувало легким матерком...

 - Ищу тебя под макияжем.

 - СЛЕДИ ЗА БАЗАРОМ , МАРКЕТОЛОГ!

 - Предсказамус настрадал нам будущее.

 - Знаток флиртует на пляже с самой бледнокожей девушкой - у неё весь отпуск ещё впереди.
 - Вестерн - фильм, в котором задумываются только лошади.
 - Ассортимент - это несколько разных милиционеров.
 - 'От зарплаты до рассвета '.
Title: Kumbaya?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 20, 2009, 02:56:10 PM
Can't we have a Kumbaya agreement?

Here is my proposal

Mirror agrees not to make rude blanket statements about Ukrainian women or
Ukrainians in general and if a Ukrainian woman comes to the forum Mirror agrees
either to say something nice or to leave her alone.

The guys who were offended by her previous statements agree to leave Mirror
alone and go out of their way not to pick on her, or try to draw her into a scrap. 


Why should anyone agree to this?
1. I am tired of reading insulting things about ALL Ukrainians
2. I am also tired of the constant bickering.


Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 20, 2009, 03:26:22 PM
I personally think that there's a better chance of the KKK reguglarly supporting the NAACP than this leopard changing her spots.
Title: Re: Kumbaya?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 20, 2009, 07:52:29 PM
if a Ukrainian woman comes to the forum Mirror agrees
either to say something nice or to leave her alone.


why do you always accuse Mirror? Barbie is from Ukraine and Mirror never been rude to her personally because there was no reason. They had their disagreement when they talked about UW, but they have their opinions that didn't match. What is wrong with that?

There were other UW that Mirror talked to without problems what so ever.
Title: Re: Kumbaya?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 20, 2009, 08:32:47 PM
if a Ukrainian woman comes to the forum Mirror agrees
either to say something nice or to leave her alone.


why do you always accuse Mirror? Barbie is from Ukraine and Mirror never been rude to her personally because there was no reason. They had their disagreement when they talked about UW, but they have their opinions that didn't match. What is wrong with that?

There were other UW that Mirror talked to without problems what so ever.

WO very recently I invited an RW here from MySpace who never said one single
word to Mirror she was Russian but Mirror "thought" she was Ukrainian and
was rude to her.

I was making a suggestion trying solve a problem and not simply to stir it up again.
If you have a better solution I would like to hear it. Mirror makes a bunch of
interesting posts about all kinds of things from travel to cooking, camping, Russian
life etc.

Udachi

Bill
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2009, 10:14:52 PM
I wonder who was teaching you while you were getting your degree, nor Soviet professors?

I wasn't educated by Soviet professors, thank God.  Such a notion, particularly in relation to history or philosophy is an oxymoron.

Remember, the very same "intellectuals" who now claim famines were natural phenomena, rather than planned, were denying any deaths occured less than 2 decades ago.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2009, 10:22:18 PM
It is funny to read questions to Mirror like "how many Ukrs did you meet in your life?" or something like that.  ;D I have a chance to live with them next and I know what is it Ukr better than you (visitors) know. If you will ask me about Kazakstan,Uzbekistan,Moldova,Baltic republics...I will tell you not less about people and a life there also. I know a hystory of all these countryes and folks and let me hope that you know from where I know it.

Did you learn about them attending the Высшую партийную школу?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 20, 2009, 10:30:31 PM
I wonder who was teaching you while you were getting your degree, nor Soviet professors?

I wasn't educated by Soviet professors, thank God.  Such a notion, particularly in relation to history or philosophy is an oxymoron.

Remember, the very same "intellectuals" who now claim famines were natural phenomena, rather than planned, were denying any deaths occured less than 2 decades ago.

How fascinating! who are your parents? Did they help Germans to fight Russians? That is how happened to be born in the west?  ::)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
I wonder who was teaching you while you were getting your degree, nor Soviet professors?

I wasn't educated by Soviet professors, thank God.  Such a notion, particularly in relation to history or philosophy is an oxymoron.

Remember, the very same "intellectuals" who now claim famines were natural phenomena, rather than planned, were denying any deaths occured less than 2 decades ago.

How fascinating! who are your parents? Did they help Germans to fight Russians? That is how happened to be born in the west?  ::)

My Grandfather was fighting the Germans while your parents were still celebrating the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2009, 10:38:13 PM
I will say, I agree with mirror on the tendency of Ukrainian politicians to blame Russia for their problems.  It is unreasonable, and it is because they are all ineffectual third rate minds, interested only in lining their own pockets.

Where mirror is mistaken is in assuming the Ukrainian people think this way about Russians as well.  They don't.  The know their politicians are criminals with no interest in bettering the lives of the populace.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 20, 2009, 10:39:08 PM

My ancestors have been in the West since the 18th century.  My Grandfather was fighting the Germans while your parents were still celebrating the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty.

My grandfather came from WWII on 30.12.1945, he was fighting Germans for over 4 years and after victory over them was relocated to Far East to fight with Japanese. Can you grandfather say the same? Remind me when Americans joined the war and how much they participated..   ::)

My parents were too young to celebrate or know anything about Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement.

If your ancestors left Ukraine in 18-th century why are you so aggressive towards Russian people? What did they do to you or your family?

Some very strange people on this forum  :-\
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2009, 10:42:41 PM

My ancestors have been in the West since the 18th century.  My Grandfather was fighting the Germans while your parents were still celebrating the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty.

My grandfather came from WWII on 30.12.1945, he was fighting Germans for over 4 years and after victory over them was relocated to Far East to fight with Japanese. Can you grandfather say the same? Remind me when Americans joined the war and how much they participated..   ::)

My parents were too young to celebrate or know anything about Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement.

If your ancestors left Ukraine in 18-th century why are you so aggressive towards Russian people? What did they do to you or your family?



Who said I was Ukrainian?  I am of mixed ancestry.  Incidentally, many Ukrainians left Ukraine in the 19th century.

I'm not aggressive toward Russian people.  I sleep with one every night.  Can you say the same?

My Grandfather was fighting in 1939, and came home in 1945.  You should read a little history.

Quote
Some very strange people on this forum  :-\

Yes, I agree.  Such as people with limited education, and clearly no knowledge of history, or the backgrounds of others, who for some reason believe they are omniscient. ::)
Title: Re: Kumbaya?
Post by: Voyager on September 20, 2009, 10:48:47 PM

I was making a suggestion trying solve a problem

Bill

We'll nominate you for the Nobel prize if you do solve it Bill...  :chuckle:


why do you always accuse Mirror? Barbie is from Ukraine and Mirror never been rude to her personally because there was no reason. They had their disagreement when they talked about UW, but they have their opinions that didn't match. What is wrong with that?

There were other UW that Mirror talked to without problems what so ever.

Barbie is a poor example WO, her parents are Russian, not Ukrainian.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 20, 2009, 11:00:15 PM

My grandfather came from WWII on 30.12.1945, he was fighting Germans for over 4 years and after victory over them was relocated to Far East to fight with Japanese. Can you grandfather say the same? Remind me when Americans joined the war and how much they participated..   ::)


WO,  You forget that many here are British/Canadian, for us the war was 6 years.

I'm glad your grandfather survived, as did  mine, although he was wounded. He was lucky. His brother was RN, escorting convoys to Russia but was killed in 1942.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Wild Orchid on September 21, 2009, 12:08:01 AM

WO,  You forget that many here are British/Canadian, for us the war was 6 years.

I'm glad your grandfather survived, as did  mine, although he was wounded. He was lucky. His brother was RN, escorting convoys to Russia but was killed in 1942.

For yours as a country or for some single person like my grandpa?

Quote
Early in the war, Canada's commitment to the British-French forces in Europe was limited to one division. Canada's military deployment reached corps-level strength for the invasions in Italy in 1943, and Normandy in 1944. Over the course of the war, 1.1 million Canadians served in the army, navy, and air force. Of these more than 45,000 lost their lives and another 54,000 were wounded.[4] The suffering and the hardships of war affected many Canadians at home and abroad.

Canada might be involved for 6 years, but on the scale of total involvement...  I don't even want to compare one division with Russians. There is a thread on that already, which I don't have any desire to read.

Yes, my family was lucky, my grandfather came home and had another 5 children, but when my grandmother had to work during war from early morning till night she had to leave 3 youngsters at home. My uncle was 5 at the beginning of the war, my mum almost 3, and my aunt was born on 16.03.1941. And here some one has a nerve to come and tell me that my parents celebrated something during war... What a joke!


My Grandfather was fighting in 1939, and came home in 1945.  You should read a little history.



and where exactly were Americans fighting in 1939?  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Voyager on September 21, 2009, 12:30:55 AM

WO,  You forget that many here are British/Canadian, for us the war was 6 years.

I'm glad your grandfather survived, as did  mine, although he was wounded. He was lucky. His brother was RN, escorting convoys to Russia but was killed in 1942.

For yours as a country or for some single person like my grandpa?


I'm not sure I understand your question? Certainly the sacrifice of the people of the Soviet Union was the greatest of all the Allies. But the sacrifice of each person who didn't come home is absolute.



My Grandfather was fighting in 1939, and came home in 1945.  You should read a little history.



and where exactly were Americans fighting in 1939?  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I get the feeling that Halo is not American...  ???

There were some Americans that came to Canada in 1939 and then volunteered to fight against the Nazis, but it was not too many.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 21, 2009, 12:47:46 AM
The first joint British/Canadian mission was in early 1940, in France.  I can list several others because I read books rather than wikipedia.

The US entered the war in December 1941, but their first major battle, aside from the attack on Pearl Harbor, was not until 1942.

Oddly, the Ukrainians you so despise were the bulkwark of Red Army soldiers killed or captured during the blietzkrieg of the USSR. 

Again, you need to learn some history, Orchid ::)
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 21, 2009, 05:47:05 AM
Again, you need to learn some history, Orchid ::)
just history? How about tolerance, manners, kindness? WO, why are you so ashamed of the town in Russia where you were born?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 21, 2009, 06:13:08 AM
to Mirror:
You have made the same accusation against wiz in several boards that he posted your name on a scam site, but when challenged by him you have not provided any evidence.
Wiz in not able to post on RUA to defend himself, therefore I would suggest that you either substantiate your allegations or retract your comments.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: shakespear on September 21, 2009, 06:44:52 AM

My grandfather came from WWII on 30.12.1945, he was fighting Germans for over 4 years and after victory over them was relocated to Far East to fight with Japanese. Can you grandfather say the same? Remind me when Americans joined the war and how much they participated..   ::)


I really don't think the Russians have much to brag about when it comes to fighting the Japanese in WW II.  History shows their whole purpose for declaring war on Japan was to achieve territorial gain as the Japanese empire was crumbling.  Did they ever give back those Pacific islands they "liberated" in the closing days of the war?  Their behavior in this regard was embarrassing.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 21, 2009, 06:46:47 AM
to Mirror:
You have made the same accusation against wiz in several boards that he posted your name on a scam site, but when challenged by him you have not provided any evidence.
Wiz in not able to post on RUA to defend himself, therefore I would suggest that you either substantiate your allegations or retract your comments.

Sorry,your post should be addressed to Supra ..not to me. I forgot Wiz already and I don't know why some of you is mentioning his nickname again and again.What should I prove for you? That did he put my name at scamm sites?  :o  I am happy that he found a woman and left me in peace.  :saint:
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 21, 2009, 07:36:21 AM
to Mirror:
You have made the same accusation against wiz in several boards that he posted your name on a scam site, but when challenged by him you have not provided any evidence.
Wiz in not able to post on RUA to defend himself, therefore I would suggest that you either substantiate your allegations or retract your comments.

Sorry,your post should be addressed to Supra ..not to me. I forgot Wiz already and I don't know why some of you is mentioning his nickname again and again.What should I prove for you? That did he put my name at scamm sites?  :o  I am happy that he found a woman and left me in peace.  :saint:

Why do I need to prove your allegations and accusations?  Eduard is correct to address you in his post. 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 21, 2009, 07:45:44 AM
Why do I need to prove your allegations and accusations?  Eduard is correct to address you in his post. 

I say you why.If Ed worryes about his hero's reputation then he needs to say to you not to mention him in front of me.He knew that I will write this answer.

Don't mention sh...t and you will not get a sh..t for an answer...simple.

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 21, 2009, 07:47:52 AM

Don't mention sh...t and you will not get a sh..t for an answer...simple.



Hi Mirror, there's no doubting you are a woman .... multi-tasking must be an art-form for you... all the packing to do, and one eye on this forum :)

Enjoy you holiday..
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 21, 2009, 08:05:21 AM
Hi Mirror, there's no doubting you are a woman .... multi-tasking must be an art-form for you... all the packing to do, and one eye on this forum :)

Enjoy you holiday..

I see you are a real man by being too busy by reading this forum, watching TV, listening radio ...or lying on a sofa. :smokin:

I washed clothers,cleaned a flat,painted a hair to my lady friend,cooked pizzas,washed hall in our multyflat house (we all do it one after one)-5 floors! , I paid flat bill,my son is full,his white shirt is washed, my tickets are ready so now I need to prepare myself only.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 21, 2009, 08:29:12 AM


I see you are a real man by being too busy by reading this forum, watching TV, listening radio ...or lying on a sofa. :smokin:

But while I write to you, I'm STILL earning money ;) ..and I'm going to go through 500 posts today  :nod:

THAT is the best "multi-tasking"



Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: mirror on September 21, 2009, 08:34:29 AM


But while I write to you, I'm STILL earning money ;) ..and I'm going to go through 500 posts today  :nod:

THAT is the best "multi-tasking"


Good. You made me curious,of course, how you are earning money while writting on forum.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: supranatural on September 21, 2009, 08:50:33 AM
Why do I need to prove your allegations and accusations?  Eduard is correct to address you in his post. 

I say you why.If Ed worryes about his hero's reputation then he needs to say to you not to mention him in front of me.He knew that I will write this answer.

Don't mention sh...t and you will not get a sh..t for an answer...simple.



Again more obfuscations.  You made allegations and accusations.  No hero involved here.  He asked you to substantiate (i.e., provide evidence) of what you say which is what I've asked of you.  Provide facts, not unproven opinions.  I mention facts and actual experiences.  You spout off with prejudiced opinions and fail to provide evidence when asked.  That's what most people call sh*t.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 21, 2009, 09:47:43 AM


Good. You made me curious,of course, how you are earning money while writting on forum.

Simple... automated, repeat payments for subscriptions... and we answer the phone and respond to emails whilst "chewing the fat" with you ;) 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 21, 2009, 11:45:49 AM
Since I was asked,  here are that stats for certain sites for various other countries in the FSU, ones more frequently mentioned here. As one can see it vairies.   
For population same source as Shaky provided to keep it in line.  8) 


Belarus

Elena's -328   Lucky lovers - 11,280  Free personals - 124 High priced -180 and 105 (female age 15-64 - 3,540,916)

Estonia

(female age 15-64 - 459,246)

Stats for sites already given earlier

Georgia 

Elena's -4  Lucky lovers  - 718  Free personals -  69 High priced- country not listed (female age 15-64 - 1,616,234)

Latvia

Elena's -12  Lucky lovers - 2523  Free personals  - 249 High priced- 7 and 99 (mainly Riga) (female age 15-64 - 797,505)

Lithuania

Elena's -5  Lucky lovers - 895  Free personals - 107 High priced- 26 (female age 15-64 - 1,261,413)

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: AkMike on September 21, 2009, 01:03:43 PM
Again, you need to learn some history, Orchid ::)

Don't confuse them with facts! Their minds are already made up and nothing will change that. :'(
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 21, 2009, 03:00:49 PM
So far I have seen very few facts, only personal opinions, with little or nothing to back them up.  ::)

So a few more that may create some doubt as to those opinions.

When Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union, a policy of Russian in-migration and Ukrainian out-migration was in effect, and ethnic Ukrainians’ share of the population in Ukraine declined from 77 percent in 1959 to 73 percent in 1991. But that trend reversed after the country gained independence, and, by the turn of the 21st century, ethnic Ukrainians made up more than three-quarters of the population. Russians continue to be the largest minority, though they now constitute less than one-fifth of the population. The remainder of the population includes Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Roma (Gypsies), and other groups. The Crimean Tatars, who were forcibly deported to Uzbekistan and other Central Asian republics in 1944, began returning to the Crimea in large numbers in 1989; by the early 21st century they constituted one of the largest non-Russian minority groups.

An interesting fact is the Ukranians populations of the and where they are.  The top three countires are as follows, Ukraine, then Russia, then Canada. Considering we are suppose to have at least 1.2 million in this country, what would Russia size be I wonder.  tiphat 


Historically, Ukraine had large Jewish and Polish populations, particularly in the Right Bank region (west of the Dnieper River). In fact, in the late 19th century slightly more than one-quarter of the world’s Jewish population (estimated at 10 million) lived in ethnic Ukrainian territory. This predominantly Yiddish-speaking population was greatly reduced by emigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and by the devastation of the Holocaust. In the late 1980s and early ’90s, large numbers of Ukraine’s remaining Jews emigrated, mainly to Israel. At the turn of the 21st century, the several hundred thousand Jews left in Ukraine made up less than 1 percent of the Ukrainian population. Most of Ukraine’s large Polish minority was resettled in Poland after World War II as part of a Soviet plan to have ethnic settlement match territorial boundaries
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 22, 2009, 12:55:05 AM
Most of Ukraine’s large Polish minority was resettled in Poland after World War II as part of a Soviet plan to have ethnic settlement match territorial boundaries




Where ever did you learn that ?!

*I* have always believed that Stalin moved / "disposed" of "potential dissent" Poles..FAR away from Poland? 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 22, 2009, 07:33:40 AM
Most of Ukraine’s large Polish minority was resettled in Poland after World War II as part of a Soviet plan to have ethnic settlement match territorial boundaries




Where ever did you learn that ?!

*I* have always believed that Stalin moved / "disposed" of "potential dissent" Poles..FAR away from Poland? 

From a more reliable encyclopedia, and I expect dissentants had already been disposed of by then.  ;D But every source I looked at had the same statistics for population breakdown, Russian being only the largest group remaining in the last quarter of the population along with other nationalities, something in the neighbourhood of 17 percent.  tiphat
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 22, 2009, 12:49:59 PM

From a more reliable encyclopedia, and I expect dissentants had already been disposed of by then.  ;D But every source I looked at had the same statistics for population breakdown, Russian being only the largest group remaining in the last quarter of the population along with other nationalities, something in the neighbourhood of 17 percent.  tiphat


Hi FE,

I have discussed this with Poles living in the UK - who are in their sixties and eighties... they STRONGLY disagree with your "pedias"..

Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 22, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
this is half statement half question:
I've noticed that Ukrainian language is basically a mixture of Russian with Polish. that was a statement.
Now the question: Is it possible that an ethnic Ukrainian is a mixture of ethnic Russians and ethnic Poles? It seemst logical that this mixing would have accured right there on Ukrainian territory historically?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: msmoby on September 22, 2009, 02:03:27 PM
this is half statement half question:
I've noticed that Ukrainian language is basically a mixture of Russian with Polish. that was a statement.
Now the question: Is it possible that an ethnic Ukrainian is a mixture of ethnic Russians and ethnic Poles? It seemst logical that this mixing would have accured right there on Ukrainian territory historically?

Hi Ed,

who said what here... ?! it is not clear if you are quoting someone ..

WHOEVER.. Surely they'd know that Russian is derived from Kiev-Rus?
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 22, 2009, 03:10:10 PM

From a more reliable encyclopedia, and I expect dissentants had already been disposed of by then.  ;D But every source I looked at had the same statistics for population breakdown, Russian being only the largest group remaining in the last quarter of the population along with other nationalities, something in the neighbourhood of 17 percent.  tiphat


Hi FE,

I have discussed this with Poles living in the UK - who are in their sixties and eighties... they STRONGLY disagree with your "pedias"..



Well they can argue with the well know one I grew up with here, now on line, but is not the normal one quoted here. frequently  :chuckle:. But I expect it has been in there for some time , and we do have polish people here as well who immigated in the past and present. Even have a polish beauty pagent in this city every year.  ;D 
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 22, 2009, 11:05:29 PM
So far I have seen very few facts, only personal opinions, with little or nothing to back them up.  ::)

Everything I have posted about the famine, unless qualified, is historically accurate.  I've posted the names of prominent historians whose works you can read.

The only controversies on this issue are the number of dead, with numbers from 3 million to 13 million, and whether the Holodomor was genocide.  As I have posted, demographic research now puts the deaths at 4 to 4.5 million.  I don't think the "genocide" label will ever be resolved, because it is an opinion.  However, it has also been used solely for political purposes by the current Ukrainian leadership, and clumsily denied by the Russian leadership, also for political purposes.

As I have posted, I don't believe the Holodomor targeted Ukrainians because they were Ukrainian.  They were targeted because, after the success of NEP and Bolshevik policies of Ukrainization, peasants (and, the majority of Ukrainians were peasants) resisted collectivization.  They were targeted as peasants, not Ukrainians.  I don't think a class war amounts to genocide.  Nevertheless, the deliberation and evil of the famine should be recognized.

On WWII, again, everything I have posted can be verified by reading some history, other than the make up of Soviet troops.  That is primarily anecdotal, but I did speak to many Red Army soldiers who survived that initial blitzkrieg, some who were POW's and did not return, and others who were still in the USSR.  There are historians who have researched this issue as well, such as Yuri Shapovel.  


Quote
Historically, Ukraine had large Jewish and Polish populations, particularly in the Right Bank region (west of the Dnieper River). In fact, in the late 19th century slightly more than one-quarter of the world’s Jewish population (estimated at 10 million) lived in ethnic Ukrainian territory. This predominantly Yiddish-speaking population was greatly reduced by emigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and by the devastation of the Holocaust. In the late 1980s and early ’90s, large numbers of Ukraine’s remaining Jews emigrated, mainly to Israel. At the turn of the 21st century, the several hundred thousand Jews left in Ukraine made up less than 1 percent of the Ukrainian population. Most of Ukraine’s large Polish minority was resettled in Poland after World War II as part of a Soviet plan to have ethnic settlement match territorial boundaries

The Jewish populations, as a percentage, were approximately the same in Right Bank and Left Bank Ukraine.  Some cities had larger Jewish populations, but shtetls were far more common on the Left Bank.

In the Tsarist Empire, Jews contended with the Pale of Settlement.  That is why the number of Jews was so low in Russia.  After the Revolution, hundreds of thousands of Jews moved to large Russian cities.  Emigration did play a part of course, predominantly in the Russian Empire.  Most of the Jews who left in the 1970's and 1980's made their way to America rather than Israel.

On resettlement of populations, yes, this did occur.  Over a million Poles were moved from their ancestral lands in Ukraine to Poland (many to Western Poland, resettling in areas previously inhabited by Germans).  Over 450,000 Ukrainians were moved from Polish territories to Soviet Ukraine.  The repatriation of populations was covered in both the Tehran and Yalta Treaties (the most notorious being the repatriation of Cossacks), although the repatriation of ethnic Polish and Ukrainian populations was predominantly covered by a later treaty between the USSR (negotiated by Khrushchev) and Poland's communist party.

Russians were about 4% of Tsarist Empire's ethnic population.  There were policies of Russification in the USSR, and millions were moved to Ukraine after WWII.  However, some of that "Russian" population is the recharacterization of ethnic minorities, such as Germans, and many Russians moved to Ukraine because the Soviets set up industries there, and populations shifted more from rural to urban areas.  The Soviet policy in this regard was not restricted to Ukraine.

ETA - I also would add that Ukrainians had no national consciousness, as a separate ethnic group, until the mid to late 19th century.  Ukrainians of the Russian Empire did not differentiate themselves from what we would now consider "ethnic" Russians.  Part of this is the split of Ukraine between the Right and Left Bank, so there was no one indigenous intellectual elite guiding the entire nation.  Part of this was repression of Ukrainian language, literature, and political thought.  But, the intelligentsia was able to survive because during mid 19th century and beyond repressions on the Left Bank, they moved to the Right Bank, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Halo on September 22, 2009, 11:14:29 PM
this is half statement half question:
I've noticed that Ukrainian language is basically a mixture of Russian with Polish. that was a statement.
Now the question: Is it possible that an ethnic Ukrainian is a mixture of ethnic Russians and ethnic Poles? It seemst logical that this mixing would have accured right there on Ukrainian territory historically?

I don't think I would characterize the Ukrainian language this way.   Certainly, Polish had an influence, because the Polish nobility had a strong policy of Polonization.  However, it is not a mix.  Both Russian and Ukrainian have East Slavic roots.   
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: MND on September 23, 2009, 12:43:13 AM
This will give you some better insight into the language

http://www.101languages.net/ukrainian/history.html
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: Eduard on September 23, 2009, 05:07:31 AM
This will give you some better insight into the language

http://www.101languages.net/ukrainian/history.html
thanks! that was an interesting read!
Title: Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
Post by: fireeater on September 23, 2009, 07:56:35 AM
Halo

For the Holodomor, I would agree. No one states that is did not ocuur, only whether it was genocide as the Government claims or for other reasons. The event has been recognized here, as you probably already know, including some memorials for our large populations of Ukrainians. That is why I like Canada. we also recognize who makes up our country, and help keep their cultures alive. But I would also add to your list of why it was more impacted in that country. that they were the next largest producer after Russia, for products.

Politics always creates friction at times, regardless of country. one of the major problems. I do not think we disagree, and you do provided facts which is always better then opinions for identifying areas that can create this friction.  :)