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General Discussion => General Chat => Topic started by: Tom Cat on April 15, 2019, 12:16:19 PM

Title: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Tom Cat on April 15, 2019, 12:16:19 PM
A piece of history is burning to the ground.

Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Lord of the Dance on April 15, 2019, 12:33:18 PM
Very sad. Fire can be so terribly destructive. Any idea how it started yet?
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Chris on April 15, 2019, 12:57:40 PM
Sad news for such a historic building, just been watching the news and live feed, saw the spire and roof collapse. Probably linked to renovation work that was being carried out.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2019, 02:42:49 PM
Seen construction scaffolding at the scene. I'd bet money a construction worker accidently started the fire. Welding and soldering can do that.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 15, 2019, 06:45:16 PM
Seen construction scaffolding at the scene. I'd bet money a construction worker accidently started the fire. Welding and soldering can do that.

Accidentally or on purpose? This is the holiest week in Christendom, was it a deliberate act of terrorism?


https://europe.infowars.com/notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-on-fire-worker-claims-it-was-deliberately-started/
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: AvHdB on April 15, 2019, 06:56:07 PM
Seen construction scaffolding at the scene. I'd bet money a construction worker accidently started the fire. Welding and soldering can do that.

Accidentally or on purpose? This is the holiest week in Christendom, was it a deliberate act of terrorism?

https://europe.infowars.com/notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-on-fire-worker-claims-it-was-deliberately-started/

An acquitance of mine about 15 years ago restored in the Dordogne a listed, high value structure. Not really a chateaux more of a fortified farm house. The government control was excessive, including each worker having his own fire extinguisher.

Off course what the government mandates and what the government does it self are two different matters. Just consider the fire in the Cats House in The Hague.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Manny on April 16, 2019, 12:31:47 PM
Seen construction scaffolding at the scene. I'd bet money a construction worker accidently started the fire. Welding and soldering can do that.

Accidentally or on purpose? This is the holiest week in Christendom, was it a deliberate act of terrorism?


https://europe.infowars.com/notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-on-fire-worker-claims-it-was-deliberately-started/

Nick Griffin (ex leader of the British National Party) posted a photo on Twitter of two grinning Muslims with it burning in the background behind them. The suggestion being that Muslims may have been behind it.

Moby will be along in a minute - quoting the Guardian - to tell us that Muslims never spontaneously combust, destroy property, rape children or blow things up in the name of Allah.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 16, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Moby understands French and watches the French news...

He will be along to point out your are either gullible or a member of the Aaron Banks fake news club.

Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: andrewfi on April 16, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Stefan Molyneux was making the point that there seems to have been a spate of defacements, arson attacks and vandalism on Catholic churches in France this year. He also made the point, and it seems reasonable, that while authorities are telling people that it is too early to jump to conclusions they are also telling us that there is no sign of the event being due to arson. Both those statements cannot be true at the same time.

The claim that the fire was not due to arson is a conclusion, just as a claim that it might have been arson is a conclusion and is a sure sign that we are being manipulated. That's not to say that the incident was, or was not arson - just that the manipulation is clear and that suggests a narrative is either prepared or in the process of preparation.

Given the degree of caution taken by contractors on projects of this type of work, it seems very unlikely that what happened was an accident. Just think of all the things that would have had to go wrong in a highly controlled environment, for this to have happened.

When I used to run a disaster restoration business we were not dealing with priceless cultural and religious artifacts but we took huge care to make sure that we damaged nothing or that we dd not make anything worse than when we first touched it. In all my years, running several franchise areas with multiple teams of workers, all trained in conservation and precaution, we only ever had one item claimed to have been damaged, a vase, in a fire-damaged house. Frankly, I did not believe the claim was genuine. However, that gave me a little context when reading reports into yesterday's events. Given the training and conditions under which the workers on this project laboured I find it hard to believe that somebody did something careless that led directly to this fire.

Either there was a whole series of events that went wrong allowing this unlikely event to happen, or the fire was deliberate. It is actually easier to think the event was due to arson than that a business that is successfully based upon the extreme caution needed to protect some of the most valuable objects in the world had a series of failings of management, systems, and equipment yesterday, in Paris. If the company had such a degree of failure built into it then there would have been evidence of it in other projects, with less grave outcomes.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: AvHdB on April 16, 2019, 02:51:08 PM
While the experience of my acquaintance in France was somewhat different than what Andrew sketches it has similarities. The amount of control and almost meddling amazed me. A private individual restores a landmark at his own cost and the government tells him what size nails to use, the type of potties and type of heating system.

If I were to guess based on the available information presently this was a chain of events that led to the outcome, a disaster.

As I recall Windsor Castle was also subject to a serious fire. What was the background of that?
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 16, 2019, 07:59:23 PM
Stefan Molyneux was making the point that there seems to have been a spate of defacements, arson attacks and vandalism on Catholic churches in France this year. He also made the point, and it seems reasonable, that while authorities are telling people that it is too early to jump to conclusions they are also telling us that there is no sign of the event being due to arson. Both those statements cannot be true at the same time.

The claim that the fire was not due to arson is a conclusion, just as a claim that it might have been arson is a conclusion and is a sure sign that we are being manipulated. That's not to say that the incident was, or was not arson - just that the manipulation is clear and that suggests a narrative is either prepared or in the process of preparation.

Given the degree of caution taken by contractors on projects of this type of work, it seems very unlikely that what happened was an accident. Just think of all the things that would have had to go wrong in a highly controlled environment, for this to have happened.

When I used to run a disaster restoration business we were not dealing with priceless cultural and religious artifacts but we took huge care to make sure that we damaged nothing or that we dd not make anything worse than when we first touched it. In all my years, running several franchise areas with multiple teams of workers, all trained in conservation and precaution, we only ever had one item claimed to have been damaged, a vase, in a fire-damaged house. Frankly, I did not believe the claim was genuine. However, that gave me a little context when reading reports into yesterday's events. Given the training and conditions under which the workers on this project laboured I find it hard to believe that somebody did something careless that led directly to this fire.

Either there was a whole series of events that went wrong allowing this unlikely event to happen, or the fire was deliberate. It is actually easier to think the event was due to arson than that a business that is successfully based upon the extreme caution needed to protect some of the most valuable objects in the world had a series of failings of management, systems, and equipment yesterday, in Paris. If the company had such a degree of failure built into it then there would have been evidence of it in other projects, with less grave outcomes.


Excellent analysis Andrew, thank you.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 16, 2019, 08:13:09 PM
AvHdB

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/spotlight-is-blamed-for-blaze-at-windsor-1561542.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/spotlight-is-blamed-for-blaze-at-windsor-1561542.html)

Q for those determined to make every incidents terrorist act...   

Are your lives that boring? This is the 21st C.. 

Those perpetrating such an act seek to claim blame ...


Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: andrewfi on April 17, 2019, 12:11:22 AM
The Windsor Castle fire was due to carelessness and a lack of precautionary measures. To mention it suggests that we do not learn from our mistakes.

Interestingly, just as with Notre Dame, quite literally the day before the conflagration, contents of several of the rooms due to be burned had been removed. Funny how that happens, just another coincidence in a long line of coincidences required for the story to play out as it did.

The cynic in me is reminded to point out that a coincidence is merely two events with a connection that we do not yet know.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 17, 2019, 01:40:46 AM
Ri-ight....

So, while doing rennovations priceless artifacts do not get moved to another place?

So much for conspiracy theories
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: rosco on April 17, 2019, 04:50:32 AM
Moby, you have the same information as everyone else although I'm not fluent in French with a Parisian accent like yourself, but I'd be interested to hear why you have almost polar opposite views on the subject, as in almost every other debate?

From what I can see, there appears to be some suspicion surrounding the fire at one of the worlds greatest christian land marks, in a country currently troubled with multiple islamic terrorist incidents and a large muslim population. There's also a huge amount of recent data to suggest that christian landmarks are being targeted for vandalism and arson in France. Logically its right to question whats happened and investigate if there will be a cover up for the good of diversity.

Nobody here has said for sure that this is the case but questions are rightly being asked. I also tend to agree with Andy on this because any contractor working in one of the most historically & culturally rich locations in the world, would have a very strict protocol and framework to work within. Accidents do happen but the likelihood of this happening due to an accident must be minuscule. If it was an accident, describing it as hugely unfortunate would be an understatement and it would involve a very long sequence of failed protocol for it to have happened. Still, its a possibility.

The photo Manny mentions (which I have seen) could also be unfortunate and innocent but the laughing emojis (literally thousands) on all the Facebook news pages by people from the islamic world or people with "muslim" names appears to practically portray an appetite for such an event to happen? Again, it could be coincidence but I'm inclined to think that there's a hate thing going on here, irrespective of how innocent you paint it.

So, with all this information and being mindful that I'm not yet pointing the finger at anyone, but merely keeping an open mind, why is it that you so staunchly and firmly believe that it couldn't be arson or a terrorist attack?

You have the same information and no proof, yet you appear to be adamant that it wasn't the muzzies. Is this belief based on liberal ideals and are you one of those secretly hoping it was a white male who did it?

Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 17, 2019, 05:17:28 AM
Moby, you have the same information as everyone else although I'm not fluent in French with a Parisian accent like yourself, but I'd be interested to hear why you have almost polar opposite views on the subject, as in almost every other debate?

I'm pretty sure that in the real world - outside this twilight zone of conspiracy theorists who claim , ""twas the Muzzies what did it " and post bollox imagery from WELL dubious sources  - my viewpoint is prevalent




Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: andrewfi on April 17, 2019, 05:52:06 AM
moby, in fact, most of the 'priceless artifacts' were not removed! Just the ones right by where the fire started.

In Windsor castle, there were only two items destroyed by fire (apart from the buildings) because just by coincidence, many of the objects normally in the rooms that got burned had been removed just before the fire. An awful lot of stuff had to be removed from the castle while the fire was burning and yet only two items, a painting, and a table were lost. Having dealt with a lot of house fires all much smaller than the Windsor and Notre Dame conflagrations, I am in awe at the good luck involved that led to the removal of valuables before the fire. If such a thing happened in 'the real world' that would be taken as being a sure sign of a planned incident.

I am really making no suggestions as to what happened because I have no way to know, but if a random event happens then it will happen at a random time. Just by chance, the fire occurred in Windsor and in Paris immediately after valuables had been removed. People were just really lucky, that's all.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Guile on April 17, 2019, 05:52:18 AM
Moby understands French and watches the French news...

He will be along to point out your are either gullible or a member of the Aaron Banks fake news club.

Like how you understand Russian?!  :ROFL: :ROFL:

My French is probably better than yours and it's a language that I haven't studied or used in decades.  ta guelle putain!
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 17, 2019, 05:54:59 AM
moby, in fact, most of the 'priceless artifacts' were not removed! Just the ones right by where the fire started.

Moby was referring to Windsor Castle ...in response the other conspiracy 'theory' ..  :coffeeread:




Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Markje on April 17, 2019, 06:03:05 AM
Ri-ight....

So, while doing rennovations priceless artifacts do not get moved to another place?

So much for conspiracy theories

I' starting to think insurance fraud. Just before the fire, 21 million had been raised for reconstruction of the roof. It was not nearly enough and they were just doing the 'gravely necessary' parts.

Now the worst parts have burned down and they raised 100' of millions to rebuild.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: andrewfi on April 17, 2019, 06:06:21 AM
Ri-ight....

So, while doing rennovations priceless artifacts do not get moved to another place?

So much for conspiracy theories

I' starting to think insurance fraud. Just before the fire, 21 million had been raised for reconstruction of the roof. It was not nearly enough and they were just doing the 'gravely necessary' parts.

Now the worst parts have burned down and they raised 100' of millions to rebuild.

Hmmm... did not know that. See my post above about valuables being moved. :(
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 17, 2019, 06:48:04 AM
It’s certainly possible that it was indeed an accident. There are other possibilities as well.

There has been quite a history of some radical men within Islam vandalizing Churches and harming or threatening Priests.

However the truth is that most Muslims are non violent and some people don’t know that Islam does consider Jesus Christ to be a prophet.

I have some Muslim friends who are highly educated peaceful people. Both in California and up here in the PNW. It’s better to meet people in person and talk to them then to allow demagogues and the media to cause separation and paranoia.

The French government has stated there should be a very thorough investigation and we’ll all see how that goes. Of course there will be many different perceptions and opinions, that’s human nature.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 17, 2019, 06:52:10 AM
Ri-ight....

So, while doing rennovations priceless artifacts do not get moved to another place?

So much for conspiracy theories

I' starting to think insurance fraud. Just before the fire, 21 million had been raised for reconstruction of the roof. It was not nearly enough and they were just doing the 'gravely necessary' parts.

Now the worst parts have burned down and they raised 100' of millions to rebuild.

I also wasn’t aware of this, wow! Investigators must keep an open mind and be thorough. There might be a cover up or truth might win out in the end.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: AvHdB on April 17, 2019, 07:22:12 AM
It’s certainly possible that it was indeed an accident. There are other possibilities as well.

There has been quite a history of some radical men within Islam vandalizing Churches and harming or threatening Priests.

However the truth is that most Muslims are non violent and some people don’t know that Islam does consider Jesus Christ to be a prophet.

I have some Muslim friends who are highly educated peaceful people. Both in California and up here in the PNW. It’s better to meet people in person and talk to them then to allow demagogues and the media to cause separation and paranoia.

The French government has stated there should be a very thorough investigation and we’ll all see how that goes. Of course there will be many different perceptions and opinions, that’s human nature.

Stated well.  :thumbsup:

While I have no specific information regarding the Norte Dame, many public institutions with art and antiques are in fact uninsured in France. Only when a collection or item travels for an exhibition or conservation is insurance in place.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Manny on April 17, 2019, 09:17:58 AM
Moby, you have the same information as everyone else although I'm not fluent in French with a Parisian accent like yourself, but I'd be interested to hear why you have almost polar opposite views on the subject, as in almost every other debate?

I'm pretty sure that in the real world - outside this twilight zone of conspiracy theorists who claim , ""twas the Muzzies what did it " and post bollox imagery from WELL dubious sources  - my viewpoint is prevalent

Moby, is it your suggestion that Nick Griffin faked the photo he posted? Which is this “well dubious source” you mention? Because you disagree with Nick’s politics, does this cloud your judgement to the degree that you assume everything he posts is fake news? He merely posted the photo and offered a possibility, he did not claim it was specifically fact that the Muslims were behind the fire.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 17, 2019, 09:32:23 AM


Moby, is it your suggestion that Nick Griffin faked the photo he posted? Which is this “well dubious source” you mention? Because you disagree with Nick’s politics, does this cloud your judgement to the degree that you assume everything he posts is fake news? He merely posted the photo and offered a possibility, he did not claim it was specifically fact that the Muslims were behind the fire.

Yes, I disagree with Griffin's politics and beliefs and the need for folks like him to plant bollox imagery to promote polarisation - he has a conviction for same ..

Anyway..

Some images that show the spread of the fire..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947425 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947425)
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Steveboy on April 17, 2019, 01:15:33 PM
Is anyone pledging any cash for the millions of acres of tropical rain forest being burnt down every few years??

That forest has been growing for thousands of years much longer than some old Cathedral in France , yet no one blinks an eyelid when they burn that forest down  :sick0012:

Funny world we live in isn't it?
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 17, 2019, 02:47:10 PM
Is anyone pledging any cash for the millions of acres of tropical rain forest being burnt down every few years??

That forest has been growing for thousands of years much longer than some old Cathedral in France , yet no one blinks an eyelid when they burn that forest down  :sick0012:

Funny world we live in isn't it?

Yes this is true and good point. Who knows what sort of condition this planet will be in at around 50 years from now?
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Steveboy on April 17, 2019, 03:14:11 PM
Is anyone pledging any cash for the millions of acres of tropical rain forest being burnt down every few years??

That forest has been growing for thousands of years much longer than some old Cathedral in France , yet no one blinks an eyelid when they burn that forest down  :sick0012:

Funny world we live in isn't it?

Yes this is true and good point. Who knows what sort of condition this planet will be in at around 50 years from now?

its just an old cathedral some guy used to live in with a bad back!! For hells sake!  They are burning down the biggest tropical forest down on the planet and killing hundreds of tribes that have lived there for hundreds of bloody years!

But WTF lets all put candles on our stupid **** Facebook profile in sympathy for France..

Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Markje on April 17, 2019, 03:28:03 PM
Is anyone pledging any cash for the millions of acres of tropical rain forest being burnt down every few years??

That forest has been growing for thousands of years much longer than some old Cathedral in France , yet no one blinks an eyelid when they burn that forest down  :sick0012:

Funny world we live in isn't it?

Yep, millions and millions, yet it doesn't arrive at the forest keepers, but in the pockets of politicians.
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: dcguyusa on April 18, 2019, 05:46:15 PM
Several historical black churches in the US south were set on fire recently.  Arson is suspected.  A local Catholic girls school caught fire over ten years ago.  The school and convent were undergoing renovations when the fire erupted.  For a moment, I thought the yellow vest protestors were behind the Paris burnings.   :-\
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM
Like the "Mouvement des gilets jaunes" would 'burn down' a symbol of their beloved France ..

Come on ! ...
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 23, 2019, 08:59:40 AM
Notre Dame yet another #FalseFlag event?

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/04/17/steele-paris/
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: msmoby on April 23, 2019, 09:11:46 AM
Clearly oo many US veterans have too much time on their hands ...  :'(
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: dcguyusa on April 23, 2019, 04:58:07 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/jesus-notre-dame-fire-photo

Quote
Pareidolia is “the tendency to perceive a specific, often meaningful image in a random or ambiguous visual pattern.”

https://www.singularfortean.com/news/2019/4/18/believers-say-image-of-jesus-appeared-in-flames-of-notre-dame-cathedral

I remember when someone claimed the image of Jesus was seen on a potato chip.    :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Notre Dame Cathedral fire
Post by: Confederate on April 26, 2019, 08:07:23 AM
Was anyone aware that there was a simultaneous fire at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?

This is an interesting article about these fires at the Unz Review.

https://www.unz.com/kbarrett/simultaneous-notre-dame-al-aqsa-fires-coincidence-or-conspiracy/