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Information & Chat About the Former Soviet Union => FSU News & Politics => Topic started by: Power Vertical on January 07, 2019, 01:14:57 PM

Title: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 07, 2019, 01:14:57 PM

The size of Russia's economy is the biggest propaganda myth in the west today. And even many Russians believe the nonsense. Russia is not a dollar bloc economy. So no. Measuring with nominal dollar GDP is not going to work. You have to use PPP.

In PPP terms, Russia comes in as the 6th biggest economy in the world. Around 4 trillion. Now to back check this number, we can look at other hard data. Like oil consumption.

Russia consumes twice as much oil as Texas & California combined.Russia consumes 3.3 million barrels of oil per day. Texas consumes 1 million and California consumes 650,000. (Yet we hear with regularity that Russia's GDP is the size of Texas.)

Number of billionaires. Russia has the 6th most billionaires.

Foreign exchange reserves. Russia has the 5th most foreign exchange reserves in the world.

Gold reserves. Russia has the 5th most gold reserves in the world.


So. Do you still believe that Russia has the GDP of Texas or Italy ?
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 07, 2019, 09:27:15 PM
NUMBER OF BILLIONARES
Russia is 6th https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_the_number_of_billionaires

AMOUNT OF FOREIGN EXCHANGE RESERVES
Russia is 6th https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-exchange_reserves

OIL CONSUMPTION BY COUNTRY
Russia is 6th https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_consumption

GOLD RESERVES
Russia is 5th https://www.google.ca/search?q=gold+reserves+by+country+2018&ie=&oe=
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2019, 06:30:15 AM
I think that here you are preaching to the choir. I doubt that even Russophobes reading this here would disagree with the point you are making.

Is there a point that you are trying to make?
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 08, 2019, 08:46:52 AM
I think that here you are preaching to the choir. I doubt that even Russophobes reading this here would disagree with the point you are making.

Is there a point that you are trying to make?

Yeah. There is a point that Im trying to make. Most people who don't hate Russia, don't know the data and are terrible at arguing against the propaganda about the Russian economy.

This isn't hard. The data is all on Wikipedia. Yet we never see it on Twitter, the forums, Youtube or anywhere. The utter bullshit still goes unchalleged. A day hardly goes by where i dont hear that Russia has the same size economy as Italy or Texas.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 08, 2019, 09:29:30 AM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Wiz on January 08, 2019, 10:33:22 AM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Just signed up. Im a eastern Europe/Russia watcher from canada

 ;D  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 08, 2019, 11:18:46 AM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Yankee no. Close but not yet. Romania , Slovakia and Poland is the closest I've been. Also been to Serbia Bosnia ect.

Now tell me how this is relevent.. :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 08, 2019, 11:21:05 AM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Just signed up. Im a eastern Europe/Russia watcher from canada

 ;D  :biggrin:

Ah a Brit. Britain. The fifth biggest economy in the world.  :ROFL:  :ROFL: 

As they say Russia is a gas station pretending to be a country. Britain is a hedge fund pretending to be a country.  :party0011:
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: SL0413 on January 08, 2019, 11:44:59 AM
So. Do you still believe that Russia has the GDP of Texas or Italy ?

Never even considered it.  I normally go around wondering about the GDP of Rwanda, the impact of the monarch butterfly migration patterns on soy bean crop fertilization, and the global market price, demand and consumption of clover honey.

Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 08, 2019, 01:13:56 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Yankee no. Close but not yet. Romania , Slovakia and Poland is the closest I've been. Also been to Serbia Bosnia ect.

Now tell me how this is relevent.. :coffeeread:

Visit Moscow and St. Petersburg and then visit everywhere else in Russia. It's like night and day. All those billionaires and wealth are in two spots. Your impression Russia is rich and the people you talk to impressions are they're not rich are both right and both wrong.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: rosco on January 08, 2019, 03:07:42 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Yankee no. Close but not yet. Romania , Slovakia and Poland is the closest I've been. Also been to Serbia Bosnia ect.

Now tell me how this is relevent.. :coffeeread:

Visit Moscow and St. Petersburg and then visit everywhere else in Russia. It's like night and day. All those billionaires and wealth are in two spots. Your impression Russia is rich and the people you talk to impressions are they're not rich are both right and both wrong.

That’s wasn’t his point though Billy. It would be like walking through downtown New York then visiting one of the many shit hole towns and cities in the US. GDP OR PPP wouldn’t change.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 08, 2019, 03:21:56 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Yankee no. Close but not yet. Romania , Slovakia and Poland is the closest I've been. Also been to Serbia Bosnia ect.

Now tell me how this is relevent.. :coffeeread:

Visit Moscow and St. Petersburg and then visit everywhere else in Russia. It's like night and day. All those billionaires and wealth are in two spots. Your impression Russia is rich and the people you talk to impressions are they're not rich are both right and both wrong.

That’s wasn’t his point though Billy. It would be like walking through downtown New York then visiting one of the many shit hole towns and cities in the US. GDP OR PPP wouldn’t change.

Well then we might as well brag how successful china is with their huge economy, GDP and amount of billionaires they have. I doubt most people would consider China a success since MOST people living there aren't successful. Shit holes are in every country. In some countries, it's rare. In others, it's the norm.

The best way to judge success of a nation is watching people vote with their feet. For example. How many Syrians chose to flee to Italy compared to Syrians fleeing to Russia? When people have choices, observe where they prefer to go because they do have an idea on which countries are successful and which are not. The amount of fossil fuels and billionaires living in a country doesn't factor into their decision.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: rosco on January 08, 2019, 04:16:15 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Yankee no. Close but not yet. Romania , Slovakia and Poland is the closest I've been. Also been to Serbia Bosnia ect.

Now tell me how this is relevent.. :coffeeread:

Visit Moscow and St. Petersburg and then visit everywhere else in Russia. It's like night and day. All those billionaires and wealth are in two spots. Your impression Russia is rich and the people you talk to impressions are they're not rich are both right and both wrong.

That’s wasn’t his point though Billy. It would be like walking through downtown New York then visiting one of the many shit hole towns and cities in the US. GDP OR PPP wouldn’t change.

Well then we might as well brag how successful china is with their huge economy, GDP and amount of billionaires they have. I doubt most people would consider China a success since MOST people living there aren't successful. Shit holes are in every country. In some countries, it's rare. In others, it's the norm.

The best way to judge success of a nation is watching people vote with their feet. For example. How many Syrians chose to flee to Italy compared to Syrians fleeing to Russia? When people have choices, observe where they prefer to go because they do have an idea on which countries are successful and which are not. The amount of fossil fuels and billionaires living in a country doesn't factor into their decision.

I don’t think he was even trying to brag, he was pointing out that it’s in better shape than the west gives it credit for.

The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: SL0413 on January 08, 2019, 04:39:04 PM


The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Sorry, no.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-an-unwelcoming-place-for-syrian-refugees/3569671.html



Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: dcguyusa on January 08, 2019, 05:44:16 PM
I think that most refugees go to a particular area because either the route is the most convenient or there are "snake heads" that provide the transportation service to move them to another area, regardless of the economic situation of the other area.  As long as the new area is "safer" than the departing area, then you take your chances.  As for Russia welcoming Syrian refugees, what about the Syrian Civil War?  Why would Russia accept "enemies" of Assad to their country?  Going there could mean getting sent back home and then get "eliminated".   :duh:
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: yankee on January 08, 2019, 06:33:04 PM


The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Sorry, no.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-an-unwelcoming-place-for-syrian-refugees/3569671.html


I am sorry but what is the fault with Russia's reasons?
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 08, 2019, 10:00:01 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Yankee no. Close but not yet. Romania , Slovakia and Poland is the closest I've been. Also been to Serbia Bosnia ect.

Now tell me how this is relevent.. :coffeeread:

Visit Moscow and St. Petersburg and then visit everywhere else in Russia. It's like night and day. All those billionaires and wealth are in two spots. Your impression Russia is rich and the people you talk to impressions are they're not rich are both right and both wrong.
Oh certainly. Im not saying that Russians are imperial rich like us. Russia is part of the imperial have-nots. The Anglo axis is the imperial haves. This is certainly true. We earn criminally overvalued imperial currency. Russians have to work for a living.

But this does not mean that Russia is pushover and a laughing stock like the western media says it is. This does not mean that Russia's economy is even particularily small. Because its not. It is actually quite big. It is no joke.

Im not sure where you guys spend your time but im surrounded by born again anti-Russia cold warriors. Russia is in the news all the time. So everyone has an opinion on Russia. I just assumed that you've heard this trope going around about the size of Russia's economy. Western propagndists are using nominal US dollar GDP measuring to measure Russia. This understates Russia's GDP by more than half. But they go with it. Because it makes Russia look bad.

I just think its lèse-majesté to go around claiming that a countries GDP is less than half of what it really is. Sure Russia has a lot of problems. But it has a solid footing and is going in the right dicrection. This isn't the 90's anymore and Russians shouldn't take anything the west says about their economy seriously. Because its mostly bullshit.

Russia is never as strong as it looks. And never as weak as it looks.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 08, 2019, 10:03:47 PM



Quote
I don’t think he was even trying to brag, he was pointing out that it’s in better shape than the west gives it credit for.

The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Exactly. That's all that I am saying.

As I said in my previous post, I am surrounded by cold warriors. Russia is in the media a lot. And people in the west really think that Russia today is 10% better than the 1990's. And that the economy is the size of Texas.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: SL0413 on January 08, 2019, 11:18:33 PM


The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Sorry, no.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-an-unwelcoming-place-for-syrian-refugees/3569671.html


I am sorry but what is the fault with Russia's reasons?

Those articles don't detail any reasons, just notes that Russia doesn't welcome refugees, as counter to what was stated by Rosco.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Wiz on January 08, 2019, 11:26:09 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Just signed up. Im a eastern Europe/Russia watcher from canada

 ;D  :biggrin:

Ah a Brit. Britain. The fifth biggest economy in the world.  :ROFL:  :ROFL: 

As they say Russia is a gas station pretending to be a country. Britain is a hedge fund pretending to be a country.  :party0011:

Take a look.....at your Bank of Canada currency......

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/ab/e0/31abe0a9bc243d2685943d1c2083de66.jpg)

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: rosco on January 09, 2019, 01:42:29 AM


The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Sorry, no.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-an-unwelcoming-place-for-syrian-refugees/3569671.html


I am sorry but what is the fault with Russia's reasons?

Those articles don't detail any reasons, just notes that Russia doesn't welcome refugees, as counter to what was stated by Rosco.

Those links talk about Syrians. The truth is that Russia welcomes refugees but they don’t get attractive handouts for their efforts. They’ll be worked and fed but safe. Why are you purposely misleading us?

Belarus is the same but astonishingly the mob headed for Europe. I wonder why?
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: SL0413 on January 09, 2019, 10:55:52 AM


The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Sorry, no.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-an-unwelcoming-place-for-syrian-refugees/3569671.html


I am sorry but what is the fault with Russia's reasons?

Those articles don't detail any reasons, just notes that Russia doesn't welcome refugees, as counter to what was stated by Rosco.

Those links talk about Syrians. The truth is that Russia welcomes refugees but they don’t get attractive handouts for their efforts. They’ll be worked and fed but safe. Why are you purposely misleading us?

Belarus is the same but astonishingly the mob headed for Europe. I wonder why?

Yes, that was the topic you and Billy was discussing. 

According to those articles, Russia welcomes refugees to apply, but only 1 has been given refugee status in 7 years.  Many more are given temporary resident status, especially if they can show ties to Russia (family, ethnic history).  But once the temporary resident status expires and they try to renew, their applications are not adjudicated.  Speculations are due to corruption, internal direction not to process, antipathy, understaffed immigration department, etc.  Whatever the reason, the refugees who were originally given temporary resident status, which allows work authorization, are in illegal status and have to take on unofficial jobs at low pay and have to rely on charity schooling for their children.


So, no, Russia does not welcome refugees, for any reasonable definition of "welcome".  They do have to allow refugees to apply, as part of the Geneva Convention.


There may be other articles that counter the above two links, but I have not been able to find any.  There are more articles stating the same issue - difficulties for refugees in obtaining status to be able to work legally in Russia - for other time periods from the 1990's to 2000's. 
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 09, 2019, 11:49:37 AM
Those links talk about Syrians. The truth is that Russia welcomes refugees but they don’t get attractive handouts for their efforts. They’ll be worked and fed but safe. Why are you purposely misleading us?

Belarus is the same but astonishingly the mob headed for Europe. I wonder why?

Not everybody wants a free handout. Some Syrians are actually fleeing for their life and they prefer to live in a country that give them and their families the best chance to succeed. Many don't have the luxury of choosing where they want to go and hope any nation would take them. In the link below is an interactive map of the people coming and going in this world. If America wasn't so tough on immigration, we'd have a lot more people coming here.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 09, 2019, 01:34:36 PM

Power Vertical, have you been to Russia? If so, where?

Just signed up. Im a eastern Europe/Russia watcher from canada

 ;D  :biggrin:

Ah a Brit. Britain. The fifth biggest economy in the world.  :ROFL:  :ROFL: 

As they say Russia is a gas station pretending to be a country. Britain is a hedge fund pretending to be a country.  :party0011:

Take a look.....at your Bank of Canada currency......

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/ab/e0/31abe0a9bc243d2685943d1c2083de66.jpg)

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Yup. Doesn't get much more imperial than that.

I was just making fun of Britain for thinking it was the 5th biggest economy. Its more like the 10th or 12th when you strip out the imperialism
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Manny on January 09, 2019, 01:41:59 PM
I doubt most people would consider China a success since MOST people living there aren't successful.

I recall reading China has the largest middle class in the world. From my visits there, in the bit I go to, I am not seeing too many in poverty.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Power Vertical on January 09, 2019, 01:44:00 PM
Those links talk about Syrians. The truth is that Russia welcomes refugees but they don’t get attractive handouts for their efforts. They’ll be worked and fed but safe. Why are you purposely misleading us?

Belarus is the same but astonishingly the mob headed for Europe. I wonder why?

Not everybody wants a free handout. Some Syrians are actually fleeing for their life and they prefer to live in a country that give them and their families the best chance to succeed. Many don't have the luxury of choosing where they want to go and hope any nation would take them. In the link below is an interactive map of the people coming and going in this world. If America wasn't so tough on immigration, we'd have a lot more people coming here.

http://metrocosm.com/global-immigration-map/

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-the-worlds-second-largest-immigration-haven-11053

Russia: The World's Second-Largest Immigration Haven

Immigrants aren’t rushing to Moscow in search of opportunity”—President Obama recently stated in an interview with  The Economist , while making a larger point about Russia’s receding role in the world. While much of his commentary on the overall state of affairs in Russia was accurate, his comments on a lack of immigrants in Moscow revealed a blind spot in his view of global-migration movements—immigrants  have been rushing to Moscow for the last twenty years, and not only to Moscow, but to cities all over Russia.

According to UN Population Division estimates, as of 2013,   the Russian Federation was second only to the United States in the sheer number of immigrants . This is a fact that continues to elude many Americans as, justifiably or not, Russia is commonly thought of as a place to leave rather than a place to which to move. And while it’s true that  Russian citizens are emigrating in increasing numbers  in recent years ( a phenomenon that has been compared to the brain drain of the early 1990s ), significantly larger flows of immigrants from the former Soviet Union have been entering Russia for the last twenty years.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: andrewfi on January 09, 2019, 02:21:01 PM
To be fair, Manny, I'd doubt that you'd be likely to be in a position, either geographically, or socially, to be seeing too many of China's poor - of which there are many. Also, I'd lay dollars to dim sum that a fair few of the people you met do much as people in Russia and near abroad used to do (and to some degree still do) and spend a large part of their income on looking good while away from their homes and returning to a local version of mud city.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: rosco on January 09, 2019, 02:41:50 PM


The Syrian argument is just stupid. They flee to Italy so they can make a relatively easy journey to other European countries who throw money at economic migrants, I mean refugees. Russia welcomes them too but they’d have to work hard for basic conditions. The British government openly posts online how much they’ll pay failed asylum seekers, why would you go to Russia if you’re on the take?

Nothing to do with gdp.


Sorry, no.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/russia-refuses-give-refugee-status-syrians-180116095003651.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-an-unwelcoming-place-for-syrian-refugees/3569671.html


I am sorry but what is the fault with Russia's reasons?

Those articles don't detail any reasons, just notes that Russia doesn't welcome refugees, as counter to what was stated by Rosco.

Those links talk about Syrians. The truth is that Russia welcomes refugees but they don’t get attractive handouts for their efforts. They’ll be worked and fed but safe. Why are you purposely misleading us?

Belarus is the same but astonishingly the mob headed for Europe. I wonder why?

Yes, that was the topic you and Billy was discussing. 

According to those articles, Russia welcomes refugees to apply, but only 1 has been given refugee status in 7 years.  Many more are given temporary resident status, especially if they can show ties to Russia (family, ethnic history).  But once the temporary resident status expires and they try to renew, their applications are not adjudicated.  Speculations are due to corruption, internal direction not to process, antipathy, understaffed immigration department, etc.  Whatever the reason, the refugees who were originally given temporary resident status, which allows work authorization, are in illegal status and have to take on unofficial jobs at low pay and have to rely on charity schooling for their children.


So, no, Russia does not welcome refugees, for any reasonable definition of "welcome".  They do have to allow refugees to apply, as part of the Geneva Convention.


There may be other articles that counter the above two links, but I have not been able to find any.  There are more articles stating the same issue - difficulties for refugees in obtaining status to be able to work legally in Russia - for other time periods from the 1990's to 2000's.

Go back and read post 11 again. Billy mentioned Syrians rowing to Italy as an example. He spoke about people making choices in the wider sense. You and I both know that.

If you’re suggesting Russia has no economic migrants then let’s park this one because it’s going nowhere.

Billy, I agree genuine people do flee war zones. That said, Turkeys safe, then Greece is safe, as is every country the migrant passes through on the way to Germany, the UK or Scandinavia.

Recently, the UK is being invaded with middle eastern asylum seekers fleeing France. Politically, France is a mess but it’s a safe western country. In my opinion, you can’t pick and choose if you’re genuinely fleeing for your life. If you’re looking for a better life then be honest and do it legally and join the queue.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: andrewfi on January 09, 2019, 03:19:41 PM
I was looking in vain for any news of Putin's wall across the southern borders of the Russian Federation. I could not see any news of migrants in boats being turned away from the shores of the Russian Federation. I guess that 'welcome' means different things in different places. In the US, for example, we can infer that to welcome somebody means to bar their entry with a wall, internment camps and tear gas. In Europe, we can infer that to welcome somebody means to bar their entry, intern them, turn their boats away back into the open sea.

There's no point scoring to be had here. It is clear that most countries seek to keep out migrants who want to claim asylum. Some are more 'welcoming' than others. In Russia, for example, it is not too hard to enter the country, it is not too hard to stay - but stay they usually can. In other countries, the same groups of people do not even get the opportunity to enter. It seems rather odd to me to criticize Russia for their strategy while, by inference - or directly, criticizing by inaccurate comparison. Ask a genuine person fleeing from harm and fear for their lives which they prefer - to be allowed to enter and live more safely while dealing with a difficult administrative process or to have their way barred and to be sent back into harm's way.

Economic migrants almost certainly would have a different perspective to genuine asylum seekers. :)

Interestingly, in one of the articles linked above that tried to criticize Russia, the only migrants featured recognized my points above and did not support the narrative created by the writers of the article. That is, they reported that they were safe, they were making a life and that life was better than they had before.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Manny on January 09, 2019, 04:57:38 PM
To be fair, Manny, I'd doubt that you'd be likely to be in a position, either geographically, or socially, to be seeing too many of China's poor - of which there are many. Also, I'd lay dollars to dim sum that a fair few of the people you met do much as people in Russia and near abroad used to do (and to some degree still do) and spend a large part of their income on looking good while away from their homes and returning to a local version of mud city.

Obviously they park their new Lexus [Lexi?] outside their mud huts. :whist11: 

But yes, change is happening fast and some are excluded as articles like >this< (https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/01/chinas-middle-class-is-pulling-up-the-ladder-behind-itself/) discuss. But that's no different to what we saw in Estonia or still see in Russia.

Look at my photos on >this topic< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,21785.msg382742.html#msg382742), I didn't see much pain.

But you've seen Russia the past 15 years or so Andrew, China is on the same journey. But China's middle class is much larger than in Russia as the world's largest economy [disputed by Americans of course]. 
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 09, 2019, 08:10:58 PM
Billy, I agree genuine people do flee war zones. That said, Turkeys safe, then Greece is safe, as is every country the migrant passes through on the way to Germany, the UK or Scandinavia.

Recently, the UK is being invaded with middle eastern asylum seekers fleeing France. Politically, France is a mess but it’s a safe western country. In my opinion, you can’t pick and choose if you’re genuinely fleeing for your life. If you’re looking for a better life then be honest and do it legally and join the queue.


If you check out that interactive map in the link I provided, notice Turkey and Iraq have the second and third most immigrants after America. Most Syrians have taken the quickest way out of Syria but of course some prefer to keep moving on to something better. Immigrants will do better in Western nations than in the Middle East. They will be second class citizens in neighboring nations. In America, immigrants do very well, most do better than the average American who was born here.

I doubt most people would consider China a success since MOST people living there aren't successful.

I recall reading China has the largest middle class in the world. From my visits there, in the bit I go to, I am not seeing too many in poverty.

I've posted below the article from 2015 that confirms your statement. But the author of the article misleads us. He writes the article as if there's good happening in China without disclosing the numbers are actually depressing.

China has 109 million people in the middle class which is the most in the world. I'm going to be generous and say China has 50 million people in the upper class which is more than any other European has in the upper class. That means over 1.1 billion people in China are living in poverty based on their standard of living.

The report below said they measure Chinese middle class as those earning double the annual median income. So that means those making $9000 are middle class. That also means everybody in China's middle class would be labeled poverty level in America since  around $24,000 is considered poverty level here. It's also possible Americans living in poverty are living better than the Chinese middle class since they qualify for free food and housing.

Many rich Chinese are investing in America and Canada so they can get permission to live here. Even rich Chinese know the West is more stable than China.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/11929794/Chinas-middle-class-overtakes-US-as-largest-in-the-world.html


Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Manny on January 10, 2019, 06:39:18 AM
There was a lot of chat on China's middle class on >this topic< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,21785.45.html), Billy. Maybe we'll pick it up there.

I am off to Zhejiang province in the coming weeks, so I'll get to see what life is like there as well.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: andrewfi on January 10, 2019, 03:35:16 PM
Billy, you are getting confused about the meaning of words. Turkey and Iraq might receive a large number of refugees from Syria but those people form only a tiny part of the total of migrants. Not all refugees are migrants, in fact, only a small number of them are,  given that a migrant is one making a permanent move. Asylum seekers are an even smaller subset of the people crossing borders to live. One might assume, that most asylum seekers are migrants though.

Of course, now that matters seem to be winding down in Syria a not inconsiderable number of Syrian refugees are returning back home.

I think that you have allowed yourself to be misled about what words mean and, also, further confused yourself by mistaking a specific case (Syrian migrants) for the general case (all people moving to another country to live).
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Wiz on January 10, 2019, 07:29:06 PM
(http://www.yannis.ip3.uk/PHOTOS/E/Emotikons_RUA/ontopic.jpg)

Today I read the following article and I thought is appropriate reply to the title of this thread!


Russia’s $75 Trillion in Resources
Is Why Sanctions Are Impossible

The country with the largest mineral reserves in the world, Russia, is the second top exporter of rare earth minerals. Its natural resources are estimated at tens of trillions of dollars.

It has abundant supplies of oil, natural gas, timber and valuable minerals, such as copper, diamonds, lead, zinc, bauxite, nickel, tin, mercury, gold and silver. Most of those resources are located in Siberia and the Far East.

(https://russia-insider.com/sites/insider/files/styles/w726xauto/public/7TvSTRK.jpg?itok=hwiR95LK)

Norilsk is an industrial city in Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia, located above the Arctic Circle,
east of the Yenisei River and south of the western Taymyr Peninsula
.

Russia’s mining industry, which is the country's second largest after oil and gas, accounts for a significant share of its GDP and exports. The country is among the top three producers of mineral commodities such as platinum, gold and iron ore. It is also the world's largest producer of diamonds and palladium. The Ural Mountains have vast amounts of minerals while most deposits of coal, oil, gas and timber are located in Siberia.

Russia is the world’s fifth largest producer of coal, with reserves of about 175 billion tons. Most of those mines are in Siberia and the Urals.

The timber industry, which is worth about $20 billion annually, is also a significant economic contributor to the Russian economy. The country’s fishing industry is the fourth largest in the world.

The value of Russia’s resources is huge and, according to statistics, is estimated at $75 trillion. In comparison, the US natural resources are worth approximately $45 trillion while China’s stand at $23 trillion.

Russian company Norilsk Nickel is one of the world's leading producers of nickel and platinum metals, with roughly half of the world's supply of palladium and nearly the same share of platinum. Production of palladium is very concentrated, much like that of its sister-metal, platinum. Russia and South Africa are collectively producing about three quarters of the world’s mined supplies. The output of the top producing country, Russia, was 81 metric tons in 2017.

Norilsk Nickel operates mines in Russia, Botswana, Australia, South Africa and Finland. The company’s revenue was almost $10 billion last year.

The global leader in diamond mining, Russia’s Alrosa, accounts for almost a third of the world’s rough-diamond production. The main production facilities are currently concentrated mainly in Western Yakutia and the Arkhangelsk region. In total, Alrosa is developing around 30 fields. In November, it opened a huge new diamond deposit in Yakutia which was launched by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

While launching the new field he said that “Russia is a country of enormous natural wealth, and the diamonds of Yakutia are another national treasure of which we are proud.” The launch of the new field “will strengthen Russia’s leadership in the global diamond market,” Putin said.

(https://cdni.rt.com/files/2018.12/l/5c20dc8fdda4c853658b45ac.JPG)

Eastern Siberia

Source: RT (https://www.rt.com/business/447815-russia-natural-resources-sanctions/)
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 10, 2019, 08:41:17 PM
Billy, you are getting confused about the meaning of words. Turkey and Iraq might receive a large number of refugees from Syria but those people form only a tiny part of the total of migrants. Not all refugees are migrants, in fact, only a small number of them are,  given that a migrant is one making a permanent move. Asylum seekers are an even smaller subset of the people crossing borders to live. One might assume, that most asylum seekers are migrants though.

Of course, now that matters seem to be winding down in Syria a not inconsiderable number of Syrian refugees are returning back home.

I think that you have allowed yourself to be misled about what words mean and, also, further confused yourself by mistaking a specific case (Syrian migrants) for the general case (all people moving to another country to live).

You're going to have to take it up with the guy who created the interactive immigration map based off data reported by nations. He calls it immigration based off who's migrating where. I do not think he has the time to interview each migrant to learn if their stop is temporary or permanent. It's easier for him to just plug in the numbers that nations are reporting.

If Assad stays, many Syrians won't return. If Assad is toppled, many Syrians will return. Syrians themselves don't even know if they are temporarily or permanently leaving their country. No need for a big question mark. Every Syrian who left the country is reported as leaving and living in another nation.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Wiz on January 11, 2019, 12:11:21 AM

Of course, now that matters seem to be winding down in Syria a not inconsiderable number of Syrian refugees are returning back home.

If Assad stays, many Syrians won't return. If Assad is toppled, many Syrians will return. Syrians themselves don't even know if they are temporarily or permanently leaving their country. No need for a big question mark. Every Syrian who left the country is reported as leaving and living in another nation.

Syria another victim in the long list of destroyed countries by the actions of the Imperialist Foreign Policy of the US super power, it's allies and their Zionists, Neocons leaders. Huge number of dead innocent people and millions had to leave the country to survive ......

Makes you sick that sort of action and atrocities taking place on the 21st Century!  >:(

Next, watch their actions, again, in the Balkans......soon.


Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2019, 05:02:10 AM
Billy, as I noted, you allowed yourself to be misled. Be proud to be American, you are showing just how well you've assimilated. You are misled as easily as most of them.

But seriously, you can't blame anyone but yourself when you 'get confused' by taking the programing of a propagandist without question. The only ways that you could have written what you did was to be hugely uninformed about the world, to be an unquestioning receptacle of propaganda programming, or to be a dishonest purveyor of that which you know to be untrue - or at the very least intentionally misleading.

As a consumer of other people's words you, we, all of us, have a responsibility to learn enough to be able to question and analyse what we are told. The responsible person, therefore, knows that what you repeated to us was bullshit. Be responsible.
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: SL0413 on January 11, 2019, 07:10:24 AM
Billy, as I noted, you allowed yourself to be misled. Be proud to be American, you are showing just how well you've assimilated. You are misled as easily as most of them.

But seriously, you can't blame anyone but yourself when you 'get confused' by taking the programing of a propagandist without question. The only ways that you could have written what you did was to be hugely uninformed about the world, to be an unquestioning receptacle of propaganda programming, or to be a dishonest purveyor of that which you know to be untrue - or at the very least intentionally misleading.

As a consumer of other people's words you, we, all of us, have a responsibility to learn enough to be able to question and analyse what we are told. The responsible person, therefore, knows that what you repeated to us was bullshit. Be responsible.

It's interesting that you state that, Andrew.

At least Billy attempts to support his view with data, versus summarily dismissing and generalizing the information as "incorrect and based on propaganda", without any substance to those words.


The immigration map is incorrect, because of not focusing specifically on Syrian population dysplasia due to the conflict.

A more accurate report may be the following from the pew research center:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/)

Per the report, the #1 nation with displaced Syrian refugees is Syria, with an estimated 6.3 million.  Second is Turkey, with 3.4 million, then Lebanon with 1 million.  Iraq is half of Germany at 250,000.  US is further down at 33,000.

Per the report, the data was gathered from UNHCR data and each countries data in on refugees.

Another data resource, but needs to be mined for summary data because the site contains relief effort and refugee weekly reports:

https://m.reliefweb.int/country/226/syr (https://m.reliefweb.int/country/226/syr)

Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2019, 10:58:09 AM
And you too were misled by not actually reading what Billy wrote. Look, we all do it, we imagine that we read what we wanted to read, we believe the lies we tell ourselves. I think it is a part of cognitive dissonance but I don't know for sure.

So, go back, read what Billy wrote and then hit me up with your apology. (okay you will likely do neither, but certainly not the latter, it wouldn't fit.)
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: Wiz on January 11, 2019, 10:59:46 AM
A more accurate report may be the following from the pew research center:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/)

Per the report, the #1 nation with displaced Syrian refugees is Syria, with an estimated 6.3 million.  Second is Turkey, with 3.4 million, then Lebanon with 1 million.  Iraq is half of Germany at 250,000.  US is further down at 33,000.

Per the report, the data was gathered from UNHCR data and each countries data in on refugees.

Reading this report.... I noticed that Greece it's not in the list and I wonder why ....... what happened to all those Syrians that come through Greece together with other Nationally immigrants, over a million of them, where did they go or still living there?

Now let's see what will happen to the 35 million Kurds. Trump has given free hand to Turkish Ertogan.... and be sure soon we will see a new genocide by the Turks.

One thing is for sure. The USA together with its friends France, UK and the other NATO members have been creating all these wars......millions dead people and no end to their criminal actions.

 :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: BillyB on January 11, 2019, 08:32:27 PM
Billy, as I noted, you allowed yourself to be misled. Be proud to be American, you are showing just how well you've assimilated. You are misled as easily as most of them.

But seriously, you can't blame anyone but yourself when you 'get confused' by taking the programing of a propagandist without question. The only ways that you could have written what you did was to be hugely uninformed about the world, to be an unquestioning receptacle of propaganda programming, or to be a dishonest purveyor of that which you know to be untrue - or at the very least intentionally misleading.

As a consumer of other people's words you, we, all of us, have a responsibility to learn enough to be able to question and analyse what we are told. The responsible person, therefore, knows that what you repeated to us was bullshit. Be responsible.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I don't care if the guys is using numbers from the UN based off what member nations report. I don't care if the numbers are 10K off. I'm not bothered by data as much as you. The data shown isn't part of some conspiracy theory that will lead to corrupting people's minds and the end of the world.


The immigration map is incorrect, because of not focusing specifically on Syrian population dysplasia due to the conflict.

A more accurate report may be the following from the pew research center:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/29/where-displaced-syrians-have-resettled/)


The immigration map shows most Syrians staying in the Middle East. No different than what Pew Research is saying.

And you too were misled by not actually reading what Billy wrote. Look, we all do it, we imagine that we read what we wanted to read, we believe the lies we tell ourselves. I think it is a part of cognitive dissonance but I don't know for sure.

So, go back, read what Billy wrote and then hit me up with your apology. (okay you will likely do neither, but certainly not the latter, it wouldn't fit.)

No need for mystery Andrew. Quote exactly the words I wrote so everybody here can identify what got you flustered. So far nothing you wrote and you wrote a lot about nothing has got me to change my mind about the immigration map. Tell us the background of the guy who used UN numbers to create the immigration map. What lies and conspiracy you think he's involved in?

Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: msmoby on January 20, 2019, 11:09:35 PM
I think that here you are preaching to the choir. I doubt that even Russophobes reading this here would disagree with the point you are making.


It is always amusing that anyone bursting the bubble as to reality in Russia - you know those who actually go there,have family / friends there are referred to as 'russophobic' for questioning the propaganda from the Kremlin ..


I prefer to use the Ivanov index from the most popular personal bank..

https://www.sberbank.ru/en/press_center/all/article?newsID=cff7bea0-9c80-49c2-af22-9d2f23dafcd5&blockID=1539&regionID=77&lang=en
 (https://www.sberbank.ru/en/press_center/all/article?newsID=cff7bea0-9c80-49c2-af22-9d2f23dafcd5&blockID=1539&regionID=77&lang=en)

Russian has lots of Billionaires who benefit from an unhealthy symbiotic relationship with a govt that suppresses opposition and corruption is rife - from the top down- making this enriched ( resources wise) nation MUCH poorer than it should be

...So yes ... seeing it for one's self is important




Title: Re: The great myth about the alleged small size of Russia's GDP
Post by: msmoby on January 20, 2019, 11:10:52 PM

I don’t think he was even trying to brag, he was pointing out that it’s in better shape than the west gives it credit for.

But IS it ? ..   How often do you go and how long do you stay ?