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Information & Chat About the Former Soviet Union => FSU News & Politics => Topic started by: Tom Cat on December 31, 2018, 02:40:26 PM

Title: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Tom Cat on December 31, 2018, 02:40:26 PM
Not a good way to end the year.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/31/paul-whelan-american-arrested-russia-spy-charges/2448683002/
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on December 31, 2018, 02:53:05 PM

Standard procedure before negotiations for a spy or criminal swap.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Omega1982 on December 31, 2018, 06:48:47 PM
Is it safe to go to Russia now as an American? 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on December 31, 2018, 07:25:31 PM
Is it safe to go to Russia now as an American?

Well it is one way to influence your countries tourist income.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Omega1982 on December 31, 2018, 08:10:27 PM
it definitely affects tourism.  if its politically motivated then any innocent tourist could be a target. 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on December 31, 2018, 11:02:44 PM
Whether or not the Russian woman is an intelligence agent, I think that the American guy very probably is.

If this is to become the basis of a swap then it makes sense for Russia to take a real piece off the board. There's two obvious reasons:
1. Taking out a real agent serves to decrease the operational effectiveness of the United States in Russia.
2. A genuine spy is likely to be a bigger and more valuable bargaining piece than some random tourist.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 01, 2019, 12:14:43 AM
Whether or not the Russian woman is an intelligence agent, I think that the American guy very probably is.

..and the basis for that conclusion is...?

Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Markje on January 01, 2019, 04:45:06 AM
Whether or not the Russian woman is an intelligence agent, I think that the American guy very probably is.

..and the basis for that conclusion is...?

Because the FSB said so?

Its basicly the same with Maria Butina, except the countries are reversed.

(And no, confessing after months of solitary confinement isn't a worthy confession)
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Manny on January 01, 2019, 06:03:39 AM
Is it safe to go to Russia now as an American?

I expect you'll be fine if not a spy.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 01, 2019, 06:46:21 AM
or a bit like being a Canadian - if in China ? ...

Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 01, 2019, 09:09:03 AM
Whether or not the Russian woman is an intelligence agent, I think that the American guy very probably is.

..and the basis for that conclusion is...?

Reading getting harder for you? (among the few things that are still getting harder these days, eh?)
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: SL0413 on January 01, 2019, 09:42:14 AM
Whether or not the Russian woman is an intelligence agent, I think that the American guy very probably is.

If this is to become the basis of a swap then it makes sense for Russia to take a real piece off the board. There's two obvious reasons:
1. Taking out a real agent serves to decrease the operational effectiveness of the United States in Russia.
2. A genuine spy is likely to be a bigger and more valuable bargaining piece than some random tourist.

Why is the American an intelligent agent?

There were months of stories about Maria Butina.  Then there is just a couple of paragraphs about the American, who was only there about a week to attend a wedding of a friend.  And yet the "American guy very probably is"...  What???




Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 01, 2019, 09:47:07 AM
Read what I wrote and get back to me. The number of days spent in Russia is irrelevant as, on reflection, I am sure you will agree.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 01, 2019, 10:07:34 AM


Reading getting harder for you? (among the few things that are still getting harder these days, eh?)

NOTHING you wrote gave any near plausible explanation - hence the question - ALL you offered up was an opinion
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: SL0413 on January 01, 2019, 02:16:03 PM
Read what I wrote and get back to me. The number of days spent in Russia is irrelevant as, on reflection, I am sure you will agree.

Yes, I have read it.  Please stop misdirecting and state why the "American guy very probably is" an intelligent agent.  Or leave it vague and make it look like an informed opinion, as you are doing.

You follow it up with statements to "take a real piece off the board", making an assumed inference that the American is an intelligent agent.  I assume you think that the act of arresting the American automatically makes him "very probably" an agent?   I would offer the counter view that arresting someone who is an easy target - ex US military, current occupation in corporate security - can make it easy to turn the opinion of those with FSU bias to support them when they do not offer up any other evidence.

He may or may not be.  There has not been much information provided, other than the accusation by Russia and denials by family. 

I liked you sly comment of "whether or not the Russian woman" with the follow up that the american is very probable.  Nice wordplay to infer that the Russian woman is likely not an agent by contrary association, without direct statement. 

Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Manny on January 01, 2019, 03:08:23 PM
The guys brother is on Twitter claiming he is a regular bloke, although he would wouldn't he? 

Not many Americans attend weddings of friends in Russia. Lets face it, not many Americans have passports even. And Russia is like the 'bogey man' over there so this guy is way beyond the norm in any event. 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on January 01, 2019, 03:55:31 PM
It seems the person under arrest was a US Marine. He served in Iraq. Since retiring he was made numerous personal trips to Russia. This trip was to attend another ex-Marine's wedding to a Russian woman.

He is some sort of director/executive at Borg-Warner a company that makes automotive/truck parts in the mid-West. He is responsible for security at a production facility in America and on a regular basis visits international facilities to inspect there security.

So it makes sense he has a passport. The Marines are a tight 'fraternity' so attending a wedding in a country that you have visited numerous times makes sense. Not all American's are fearful of Russians some are even best friends.

Russia has not provided any evidence or proof regarding guilt, why does that sound so familiar?
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Manny on January 01, 2019, 04:39:47 PM
I'm not intimately acquainted with the case, but Russia doesn't have form for making stuff like this up. The Yanks will have spies in there so why catch a bloke that isn't one if they can catch one that is? Russian intelligence isn't shabby.

There is probably much we don't yet know here.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Tom Cat on January 01, 2019, 05:08:04 PM
The guy had to have contacted someone of interest to get noticed. Just visiting to attend a wedding ain't gonna sound any alarms.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 01, 2019, 09:00:35 PM
it definitely affects tourism.  if its politically motivated then any innocent tourist could be a target.

The truth whether the American is a spy or is a tourist really doesn't matter. Russia needs an American to trade for a Russian. They may pick up another American if they feel the need. I think they hate the Russian bride seekers the most since it affects their population growth.

Westerners will take notice and some will cancel vacations to Russia. Russia knows this but will do what they think is in their best interest.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 01, 2019, 09:12:29 PM
t Russia doesn't have form for making stuff like this up.



IF I was allowed to edit my own profile my current sig would read ," He really did say that" with a 'straight' face ;)

The Americans are no angels, either re getting suspects into custody .





 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Manny on January 02, 2019, 05:10:59 AM
IF I was allowed to edit my own profile my current sig would read ," He really did say that"

There ya go.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Markje on January 02, 2019, 09:11:15 AM
The FSB stated they caught him in the act. Still no further details on how/where
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 02, 2019, 03:09:12 PM
There's plenty of spies in Russia. There's no need to pick up somebody who isn't one. Of course, the USA would say that the guy was innocent. That's the script.

So, Occam's Razor suggests that he is a spy and that he was picked up whilst in the act.

Does that same rule apply to the Russian woman? I think less strongly because there were domestic political needs met by her arrest that had nothing directly to do with Russia.

If one were to ask if it was risky to be a Russian visiting the USA, I'd be much more cautious about saying that there was no risk whilst not being so cautious about American people visiting Russia.

However, if one were to ask if the guy was picked up in order to facilitate an exchange, I'd be thinking that he was, that's because the Russians are probably happy to have a bunch of spies that they know about and are watching.

The new guy is a very low value target, arresting him gives away little or nothing about their counter intelligence operations and, it would seem likely that he was not very good at his job.

It is my guess that there's a number of people who are likely to raise a flag and are surveilled on arrival in foreign countries. From what I have read about this guy, I would have expected that he would have been under surveillance from the moment that he boarded his flight to Moscow.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 02, 2019, 08:43:05 PM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Omega1982 on January 03, 2019, 01:44:21 AM
Another nail in the coffin for the Russian bride industry. 

In one western article I read it said it was suspicious that the guy has a Russian social media account "even though he has never lived nor worked in Russia" 

I guess some people cannot fathom that the man has the vk or ok account to see Svetlana's photos in bikini from her recent trips to the Mediterranean :) 

From what I've read it doesn't seem like the guy is a spy at all.  It's true what Billy said a spy wouldn't have his background. 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Omega1982 on January 03, 2019, 02:02:10 AM
Russia is very much interested in Maria's release.  On the site of the Russian embassy in Washington there is a photo of Maria and a petition for help. 

This will definitely scare off tourists.  It's pretty clear they're looking to do an exchange. 

Around ten years ago Cuba detained an American Jew under similar circumstances.  Then under the previous administration like five years later, there was an exchange for some Cuban spies that were being held in the US. 

I wonder if this guy will have to wait several years? 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 03, 2019, 02:40:49 AM

So, Occam's Razor suggests ...

that Andrewfi HAS many many assumption that were unnecessary

Gotta love the way he 'rationalises' when posting on stuff he knows no more about than any of us ....
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: yankee on January 03, 2019, 06:35:30 AM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.


I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on January 03, 2019, 06:44:02 AM
Disregarding Andrew's pontifications.

There are two other realities, while I will not claim to know a Platoon of Marines, the handful that I do know would make terrible spies. Might as well ask a 12 year girl to keep a secret!

Second in both cases we are speaking of civilians, different rules are at play.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 03, 2019, 06:56:24 AM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.


I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?

And yet just a few years later this proven thief and criminal was heading up the security division of a multi-billion international business. That's very odd. Whatever we might have been told, stuff does not add up. This bloke is not the simple ex-marine helping a mate get married in Moscow - even if there is a mate and there was a wedding and it was in Moscow. One thought to bear in mind is this: not all espionage takes place at the behest of some government or other.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on January 03, 2019, 07:01:37 AM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.
I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?

And yet just a few years later this proven thief and criminal was heading up the security division of a multi-billion international business. That's very odd. Whatever we might have been told, stuff does not add up. This bloke is not the simple ex-marine helping a mate get married in Moscow - even if there is a mate and there was a wedding and it was in Moscow. One thought to bear in mind is this: not all espionage takes place at the behest of some government or other.


Andrew, You are a funny guy. So the Marine was in Moscow to get the drawings to the newest Lada transmission?
:ROFL:
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 03, 2019, 08:05:40 AM
Don't be daft. Neither you nor I know what they guy was doing. All that we can do is use our brains to analyse what we do know. I gave a rational perspective about the case way up thread and pointed out a few things that might (definitely) were missed by other posters.

I have noted that not all espionage is carried out by governments, even if it is possible that Russia, in this case, might think the guy is a state actor rather than a commercial one. I am, of course, only speculating - I do not know that the guy is a spy and I do not know who is real employers are. The thing is that I very much doubt that the Russians would have picked up an innocent guy and that I have explained above. We also know that the guy's background is a little odd, to say the least; there's a story there.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2019, 08:47:09 AM
I would also assume that they would have stripped him of his rank and demoted him to an e-1?

Article below says that's what happened. His court martial paperwork is in there too. He also got in trouble for lying, writing bad checks and using someone elses social security number.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/01/02/paul-whelan-russia-larceny-michigan/2462340002/

And yet just a few years later this proven thief and criminal was heading up the security division of a multi-billion international business. That's very odd. Whatever we might have been told, stuff does not add up. This bloke is not the simple ex-marine helping a mate get married in Moscow - even if there is a mate and there was a wedding and it was in Moscow. One thought to bear in mind is this: not all espionage takes place at the behest of some government or other.

Actually he is a simple Marine in the Marine reserves. Reservists don't train much and usually support the real warriors in a war with clothes, food, fuel, and other supplies and assistance. Because he is in the reserves and rarely works for the military, he had a job in the civilian world before getting the job with the auto parts manufacturer. Most companies look at resumes and rarely dig into a military background. The guy probably got the job based on his previous employer's opinion of him, if Borg Warner even made calls to the previous employer to inquire about his capabilities and work ethic.

The guy was born in Canada to British parents. That there is a reason he may have been arrested! Actually with his background of theft and identity theft, he may have actually tried to steal Soviet memorabilia wanting souvenirs for himself. Probably got caught and Russia figures it may go ahead and make the most of it.

Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Markje on January 03, 2019, 11:44:47 AM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.

You do realise a real spy usually has a fake background to protect him, no?
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 03, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
He has now been indicted and will appear in court at the end of February. He has a Russian lawyer.

Most unusually he has had a visit from the US ambassador to Russia. From what I have seen, civilians do not get that type of treatment. An ambassadorial visit is, apparently, more typical of a spy's treatment.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2019, 01:12:48 PM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.

You do realise a real spy usually has a fake background to protect him, no?

Borg Warner has confirmed Whelen is a full time employee. They sell parts all over the world. What's in it for them if they lie on behalf of a spy unless the spy was trying to steal trade secrets for them? If he were stealing trade secrets from a Russian company for Borg Warner's benefit, Borg Warner would deny any ties to him guaranteed. You do understand the fake identities of spies aren't supposed to create collateral damage of innocent individuals and businesses should they get caught?

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/press-releases/2019/01/01/statement-regarding-paul-n.-whelan
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2019, 01:16:08 PM
He has now been indicted and will appear in court at the end of February. He has a Russian lawyer.


Has Russia said anything about what the guy did that led them to believe he's spying? Are their recordings of conversations or video evidence? Is the transfer of classified materials involved?
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Markje on January 03, 2019, 02:23:58 PM

The American who was arrested in Russia got a dishonorable discharge for larceny when he was a Sargent in the military. There's a strict vetting process before someone can work as a spy, in an intelligence agency, and trusted with secrets. I serious doubt America's intelligence agencies would trust a thief who betrayed his country to work for us again.

You do realise a real spy usually has a fake background to protect him, no?

Borg Warner has confirmed Whelen is a full time employee. They sell parts all over the world. What's in it for them if they lie on behalf of a spy unless the spy was trying to steal trade secrets for them? If he were stealing trade secrets from a Russian company for Borg Warner's benefit, Borg Warner would deny any ties to him guaranteed. You do understand the fake identities of spies aren't supposed to create collateral damage of innocent individuals and businesses should they get caught?

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/press-releases/2019/01/01/statement-regarding-paul-n.-whelan

I understand they would vouch for him, otherwise his cover would be blown in an instant. Whats in it for them: Serving the country? Doing 'the right thing' because uncle sam convinced them?
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 03, 2019, 02:41:34 PM
He has now been indicted and will appear in court at the end of February. He has a Russian lawyer.


Has Russia said anything about what the guy did that led them to believe he's spying? Are their recordings of conversations or video evidence? Is the transfer of classified materials involved?

It didn’t stop the UK instantly blaming Russia without proof, for the alleged poisoning. Why should Russia be the only ones to instantly share their intel with the world?

Just a thought.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2019, 03:20:15 PM
I understand they would vouch for him, otherwise his cover would be blown in an instant. Whats in it for them: Serving the country? Doing 'the right thing' because uncle sam convinced them?

So companies are willing to hurt their profit margin by participating in the spy business? Executives are willing to risk their lives participating in the spy business?

It's easier for uncle sam to create bogus passports using someone elses name and background for their spies. The spy's cover could be he works for Ford and of course if the spy is caught, Russia would know his name and background is not real and Ford can announce they don't know the guy which is the truth.

 Borg Warner has business all over the world. I doubt their loyalty is to one country and getting into the spy business is just stupid for any company to do.

It didn’t stop the UK instantly blaming Russia without proof, for the alleged poisoning. Why should Russia be the only ones to instantly share their intel with the world?

Just a thought.


UK has a recent history of people getting assassinated by way of radioactive and chemical weapons. If UK wants this behavior stopped, they need to point the finger at the right people and I believe they care about their citizens enough to get it right and they got it right. Why is anybody surprised Russia executes traitors? I would be surprised if ex KGB agent Putin didn't go after his traitors.

For over 100 years the Coca Cola formula was studied over and over and numerous attempts were made to copy it. Nobody was successful. Russia's Novichok strain is well known since a Russian scientist snuck a sample out of the country and turned it over awhile back.

The strain is easily identifiable since it's on record but to replicate the exact ingredients, the amounts used, and methods used in a lab to create Coca Cola or Novichok, I doubt even UK's finest could do it. If they can't do it, then they can't frame Russia for something they didn't do. 4 labs around the world all came to the same conclusion Russian Novichok was used.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 03, 2019, 03:41:31 PM
Yet here we are today, with no proof it was Russia. Headlines were made, the people think it’s a done deal and the silence is deafening.

The UK has a very short history of a handful of individuals being attacked by chemical weapons and you tell me the best way to stop this is for us to point fingers? I’m all for that but a bit of thorough investigation and conclusive evidence would be nice.

Maybe the silence in the American spy case is about not saying anything until final investigations have finished. Sounds sensible to me. You think Putins a KGB devil, I think he’s more calculated than that. He thinks a few steps ahead, chess style but that discription won’t satisfy the mob.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2019, 03:49:37 PM
a bit of thorough investigation and conclusive evidence would be nice.


Guys like you and I aren't going to see the evidence. Not in the assignation attempts in the UK or the killing of a journalist at a Saudi embassy in Turkey. We aren't important enough.

In a show of support for the UK, America punished Russia over the Novichok incident. Democrats and Republicans with high level security clearances got to review the evidence before deciding fault. They rarely agree on anything yet they all agree the evidence points to Russia.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 03, 2019, 04:00:27 PM
I don’t nessearily disagree with you there but in this day and age where our governments have been caught lying or manipulating situations in order to justify future actions, I won’t blindly follow and support them. They can keep sensitive stuff classified but they need to prove it.

It’s a classic tactic these days, accuse a country of chemical warfare and claim a president is a racist rapist. No proof needed, whip up a storm, create the divide and walk off into the sunset Scot free.

Anyway, back to the arrested yank. You’ve just told me that us mortals don’t need to know the essentials. So why bash Russia and Putin?
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 03, 2019, 04:10:09 PM
The guy was picked up in a meeting with some Russian bloke in a bedroom in the Hotel Metropol.

That's some odd stuff right there. The Metropol was famed, back in the day, for being fully bugged. It was, as I recall, the only hotel available to foreigners in Moscow in Soviet times. The Russians say that he was caught red handed.

It is like a cliche, the guy was caught in a time warp from 40 years ago!

If as seems likely they do have the bloke bang to rights then it is likely that the Russians will be very open about everything. They're off to a good start!
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2019, 04:58:00 PM
I don’t nessearily disagree with you there but in this day and age where our governments have been caught lying or manipulating situations in order to justify future actions, I won’t blindly follow and support them. They can keep sensitive stuff classified but they need to prove it.

Everybody is dishonest to some degree. There are dishonest people in every government. But we are all honest to some degree too. Most people in your and my government don't want to engage Russia in a war but want to do the right thing. If somebody brought shit into my house, they will get punished. Somebody brought shit into the UK numerous times and they need to get punished.

Anyway, back to the arrested yank. You’ve just told me that us mortals don’t need to know the essentials. So why bash Russia and Putin?

I'm not bashing Putin and Russia. I'm letting everybody know Putin is going to do what people expect him to do. I'm surprise people defend him. It's no surprise to me he's defending Russia's interest. I disagree with him on how he manages the country. There's a lot of talented people in Russia and the country could be so much more if it were ran right.

The Russians say that he was caught red handed.


Just learned he was to receive a USB flash drive that had the names of Russian spies on it. We can not expect Russia to turn over the evidence to the public, the UN or other nations for review. How about a video or voice recording of the incident since the place is thoroughly bugged?

https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/american-who-was-arrested-for-espionage-detained-in-metropol-hotel-room-with-usb-flash-drive/


Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 03, 2019, 10:24:38 PM


It didn’t stop the UK instantly blaming Russia without proof, for the alleged poisoning. Why should Russia be the only ones to instantly share their intel with the world?

Just a thought.

Some thought, given the movements of the two GRU operatives ...  :dh:
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 03, 2019, 10:25:34 PM
BTW, seem the alleged spy is a dual citizen .. American and BRITISH !
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 04, 2019, 04:41:38 AM
I don’t nessearily disagree with you there but in this day and age where our governments have been caught lying or manipulating situations in order to justify future actions, I won’t blindly follow and support them. They can keep sensitive stuff classified but they need to prove it.

Everybody is dishonest to some degree. There are dishonest people in every government. But we are all honest to some degree too. Most people in your and my government don't want to engage Russia in a war but want to do the right thing. If somebody brought shit into my house, they will get punished. Somebody brought shit into the UK numerous times and they need to get punished.

So prove who brought shit into the house and the family will support the punishment. Simple stuff.

Anyway, back to the arrested yank. You’ve just told me that us mortals don’t need to know the essentials. So why bash Russia and Putin?
I'm not bashing Putin and Russia. I'm letting everybody know Putin is going to do what people expect him to do. I'm surprise people defend him. It's no surprise to me he's defending Russia's interest. I disagree with him on how he manages the country. There's a lot of talented people in Russia and the country could be so much more if it were ran right.

I suspect your views on Russia are quite simplistic and you see it throw the American eye. Russia needs or needed a Putin through this transition and anyone weaker would been walked all over. No doubt further down the line when Russia has evolved a bit more, they'll be ready for your type of democracy and maybe even a lady President of colour. And yes I used that example to highlight the journey Russia is on and has been since the 90's. Many westerners assume Russia is on the same path, at the same point in time as the USA or the UK and also expect the same western liberalism to be the norm.

It's a shame we can't parachute Dianne Abbott or Nancy Pelosi into RU politics just to see how the public would treat them.  :ROFL:

Those with less favourable views on Putin, assume that the blokes much worse than he is. I'd place a large imaginary online bet with a stranger that he's done plenty bad in his time, particularly during his early KGB days but I do laugh when people talk about him being the devil whilst failing to do the same when we talk about Obama, Blair or Bush. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially the yanks. And no, a few hundred journalists and activists aren't the same as millions of innocent civilians all over the globe.

Their house, their rules so we keep out of it. Our world, your rules, so you should keep out of it. My basic take on the situation.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 04, 2019, 07:22:07 AM
The suspected U.S spy, Whelan has been given consular access by Russian authorities. The guy is getting cloth of gold treatment. :)

It turns out that the guy is a dual citizen. He holds a British passport and the British government wants a chat with him too! https://tass.ru/politika/5974816

When will the Israelites want a chat with him as well? After all, if he has two passports, might as well go for a prial. :)
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 04, 2019, 09:05:25 AM
So prove who brought shit into the house and the family will support the punishment. Simple stuff.


You, I, and billions of other normal people in the world will never get to see evidence like the one you ask for. This is the second time you're asking for it. Your elected officials with top secret security clearances get to see it. You may not trust some of them but some of them you could trust. Are they all unified with the evidence they reviewed? I know American officials are. Even Trump who's skeptical of our own intelligence agencies punished Russia after what he seen. Every one of UK's allies agree too. If you don't believe a unified mass on this issue, then you have trust issues and you will never be convinced Putin is capable of ordering the assassinations of ex spies by way of means very few people have access to.

My belief is Putin is modernizing his military. He wants to discourage people from becoming traitors by assassinating traitors and show his spies he will take care of them should a Western nation arrest them. These recent events are more than just events. They're statements made by Putin.


The suspected U.S spy, Whelan has been given consular access by Russian authorities. The guy is getting cloth of gold treatment. :)


Not sure about the gold treatment. Read an article he's currently in Russia's toughest prison. They strip prisoners clothes and put them in solitary for awhile before giving them their clothes back. Prison guards don't let prisoners talk to visitors or attorneys unless speaking in Russian. Whelen speaks very little Russian.

Also read an ex CIA agent saying he's not spying for America. Spies are given a background of being a diplomat which gives them diplomatic immunity and a level of protection. If he were working for America, it would've been stupid sending him in without giving him protection. If a nation doesn't protect their spies, people would be less inclined to work as a spy.

Whelen had a VK account and announce prior to his visit that he was going to Russia. He had friends from Russia on that account. Can't they go in and check his messages to see if he had planned on meeting somebody to receive secret info? What about the guy who supposedly gave him that info? Where is he? What's his name? Is he in jail? Or is he working for the FSB and they set Whelen up with a tempting offer through VK and Whelen, on his own, took the bait?

Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 04, 2019, 10:07:13 AM
So prove who brought shit into the house and the family will support the punishment. Simple stuff.


You, I, and billions of other normal people in the world will never get to see evidence like the one you ask for. This is the second time you're asking for it. Your elected officials with top secret security clearances get to see it. You may not trust some of them but some of them you could trust. Are they all unified with the evidence they reviewed? I know American officials are. Even Trump who's skeptical of our own intelligence agencies punished Russia after what he seen. Every one of UK's allies agree too. If you don't believe a unified mass on this issue, then you have trust issues and you will never be convinced Putin is capable of ordering the assassinations of ex spies by way of means very few people have access to.

My belief is Putin is modernizing his military. He wants to discourage people from becoming traitors by assassinating traitors and show his spies he will take care of them should a Western nation arrest them. These recent events are more than just events. They're statements made by Putin.


The suspected U.S spy, Whelan has been given consular access by Russian authorities. The guy is getting cloth of gold treatment. :)


Not sure about the gold treatment. Read an article he's currently in Russia's toughest prison. They strip prisoners clothes and put them in solitary for awhile before giving them their clothes back. Prison guards don't let prisoners talk to visitors or attorneys unless speaking in Russian. Whelen speaks very little Russian.

Also read an ex CIA agent saying he's not spying for America. Spies are given a background of being a diplomat which gives them diplomatic immunity and a level of protection. If he were working for America, it would've been stupid sending him in without giving him protection. If a nation doesn't protect their spies, people would be less inclined to work as a spy.

Whelen had a VK account and announce prior to his visit that he was going to Russia. He had friends from Russia on that account. Can't they go in and check his messages to see if he had planned on meeting somebody to receive secret info? What about the guy who supposedly gave him that info? Where is he? What's his name? Is he in jail? Or is he working for the FSB and they set Whelen up with a tempting offer through VK and Whelen, on his own, took the bait?

Like I said earlier, I don't disagree with much of what you write but the fact remains, we have different opinions.

First of all, evidence can be given to support the claims it was Russia, without giving away classified information. You and I both know that and anything suggesting otherwise is bull shit. People simply can't can't make huge allegations without giving something and why believe a government who released several different versions of the story within quick succession. The finger pointing with almost instant and the UK's allies (many of whom are already hostile to Russia) were always going to back them up. That's how it works.

Secondly, I believe Putin is modernising Russia's army to protect the country. Russia like anyone else out with the clique are thrown into the aggressor basket (because they become a direct threat) for doing so whilst the western nations are always doing it to keep the peace. A great piece of propaganda for you right there! We all know that factions of governments and particularly yours, would love to see Russia fall apart. Uncle Sam would be in there like a rat up a drain pipe, divvying up the spoils as they see fit. Putin knows this and he doesn't need to guess, he's watching what you've done for decades.

If I were Putin, I'd be doing my best to keep foreign meddling and the threat of conflict out, for the sake of sovereignty. Look how much you lot pissed the bed when allegations of Russian interference in your elections came out. The world knows it can't trust the UN and in particularly the US, given its thirst for invading places for profit over humanitarian crisis. (* Lets invade the oil instead of saving millions in Rwanda)  :sick0012:
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on January 04, 2019, 10:23:13 AM
The world knows it can't trust the UN and in particularly the US, given its thirst for invading places for profit over humanitarian crisis. (* Lets invade the oil instead of saving millions in Rwanda)  :sick0012:

Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 04, 2019, 10:34:41 AM
The world knows it can't trust the UN and in particularly the US, given its thirst for invading places for profit over humanitarian crisis. (* Lets invade the oil instead of saving millions in Rwanda)  :sick0012:

Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.


Yea I know. That was my point.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 04, 2019, 11:57:23 AM
Why would anyone post on their social media accounts that they were going to have a secret meeting?

Here's the reality: The Russians caught this Whelan bloke doing something that they think was illegal with a Russian person. There's no doubt at all that this stuff happened. All that is left is to decide whether the Russian's interpretation of the affair is valid. Right now we have no way to know that it isn't and our friend Occam suggests that the Russians probably had enough information, particularly about Whelan's interlocutor, to be pretty darned sure that Whelan's activities were nefarious.

The chances are that the Russians knew ahead of time what was going on - they were in a position to arrest the guy in the room, red-handed. That suggests a decent amount of foreknowledge and that argues against Whelan's innocence; it certainly looks as though he was not some innocent caught up in matters as an innocent bystander. Whatever was going on, he was a participant.

By the way, by cloth of gold treatment, I was referring to the manner in which everything was being done correctly. The U.S ambassador went on to reassure his guy and to make sure his resolve was suitably stiffened. The Russians have allowed the U.S consular staff to seem him and the British now want to see the guy as well. Everything has been done properly.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 04, 2019, 02:25:07 PM
Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.[/font][/size]

When nations rescue other nations or get involved in other nation's conflicts, it's usually done for the benefit of themselves. Nations are no different than individuals. No reason to spill the blood of your sons, daughters and fellow citizens over Rwanda. Now if Rwanda had resources that are tied to your nation's economy and the economy and your people will suffer if there's conflict in Rwanda, your nation is more likely to get involved.

Why would anyone post on their social media accounts that they were going to have a secret meeting?


Whelen announced he was going to Russia on VK but doesn't VK allow messages to go back and forth in private between users?

The chances are that the Russians knew ahead of time what was going on - they were in a position to arrest the guy in the room, red-handed. That suggests a decent amount of foreknowledge and that argues against Whelan's innocence; it certainly looks as though he was not some innocent caught up in matters as an innocent bystander. Whatever was going on, he was a participant.


That's what I'm thinking and Russia may have baited him offering him something of value. Maybe the guy was offered a souvenir and he agreed to meet his "friend" on VK in person to accept a gift. Maybe he was offered secrets and agreed to meet his "Friend" for that. That's why it's important to get into his account and see why he agreed to meet this Russian guy that has not been named yet. If he simply agreed to accept top secret info, that's enough for Russia to bust him.


Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Omega1982 on January 04, 2019, 07:50:49 PM
Where's Cornfed, haven't read his posts in a couple weeks. 
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 05, 2019, 04:29:45 AM
Well, Billy, that's what a court will decide. The Russians will do everything by the book, if for no other reason to contrast with the relatively lawless United States.

Given the 'going by the book' which is now Russian policy in such matters, we can be sure that they have a strong case supported by relevant evidence. It is also worth noting that the conviction rate in Russian courts is very high. They don't mess about with dodgy cases.

This reminds me of the case of the Estonian spy picked up by Russia a few years ago. The Estonians jumped through all sorts of narrative hoops and incredible claims to justify their claim that he was innocent. Of course, the guy was a professional spy - that was not actually disputed - and was caught bang to rights based upon good Russian counter intelligence and preparation.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: rosco on January 05, 2019, 06:35:22 AM
Rwanda does not have any oil reserves. Further Rwanda has been fairly stable in the last ten or so years without foreign troops or peace keepers.[/font][/size]

When nations rescue other nations or get involved in other nation's conflicts, it's usually done for the benefit of themselves. Nations are no different than individuals. No reason to spill the blood of your sons, daughters and fellow citizens over Rwanda. Now if Rwanda had resources that are tied to your nation's economy and the economy and your people will suffer if there's conflict in Rwanda, your nation is more likely to get involved.

At least you’re being honest with us Billy. Sadly your rulers choose not to and we’re all reminded that your wars around the globe are in the name of freedom. If it really was, then conflicts like the one in Rawanda wouldn’t have resulted in millions of innocents dying through genocide. Instead we all sat back and watched, shocking.

This is why the globe doesn’t trust the US and there’s a growing degree of sympathy for countries like Russia, who we’re brought up to know as the enemy.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: Manny on January 05, 2019, 07:30:59 AM
Where's Cornfed, haven't read his posts in a couple weeks.

Same first name I think................
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 05, 2019, 10:43:25 PM
Well, Billy, that's what a court will decide. The Russians will do everything by the book, if for no other reason to contrast with the relatively lawless United States.


It would be beneficial for Russia to take this to the court of public opinion now. Tell everybody exactly what he did and show what evidence they have. Many tourist are of the opinion Russia may arrest any innocent tourist and thus, will visit another country instead.


At least you’re being honest with us Billy. Sadly your rulers choose not to and we’re all reminded that your wars around the globe are in the name of freedom. If it really was, then conflicts like the one in Rawanda wouldn’t have resulted in millions of innocents dying through genocide. Instead we all sat back and watched, shocking.


I watched Hotel Rwanda and I wondered why nobody helped. But I can't fault nations for not acting. There was no benefit and on a personal level, I wouldn't want my kids dying for people who wouldn't come to our rescue in a time of need.

During the American Revolution, France helped the American Colonists free themselves from British rule. Why? To hurt their competition, not because they love Americans. That's the way it was and that's the way it'll always be. People and nations are more likely to get help if they are valuable. If Rwanda someday show they are valuable to others, they are more likely to get help in a time of need.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 06, 2019, 06:29:05 AM
Even if you are right, Billy, and I doubt it, Russian policy has been made clear - follow the rule of law, follow procedure, produce evidence and build an objective case.

That said, it has been leaked that what the guy was doing, was, over a period of years, building a network of contacts, almost certainly not people who would think of themselves as traitors to Russia and using them to gain access to information desired by his masters.

He was caught with a flash drive with a list of names of personnel at a secret organization in Russia. It would certainly seem that he was caught bang to rights, that he had been under surveillance for some time and that, most likely his contacts and associates are now likely to be rolled up. The only comment I'd add to that is this: it seems to me that his operating technique was a tad shoddy, perhaps overconfidence bought on by his opinion of the people he was dealing with being rather low -sneaky Russians as he once described the people he met on his trips to Russia.

It is worth remembering that the Butina woman being held in isolation in the United States is not accused of espionage, but of an administrative issue - the same as General Flynn was accused. The chances are that she agreed knowing that the penalty was a couple of years in prison as compared to indefinite incarceration - much the same choice as Flynn had to make.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: msmoby on January 06, 2019, 07:34:24 AM
Even if you are right, Billy, and I doubt it, Russian policy has been made clear - follow the rule of law

Once again - a post causing Russians to fall about ...

'Law's' are broken with impunity at the top and the judicial system is fatally flawed..  Observe the number of cases that go to court and the state fail to convict ...

Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 06, 2019, 02:40:45 PM
That said, it has been leaked that what the guy was doing, was, over a period of years, building a network of contacts, almost certainly not people who would think of themselves as traitors to Russia and using them to gain access to information desired by his masters.


A week has gone by and Whelen hasn't been charged with anything. Will he be jailed indefinitely without charges? So far we've had to rely on media and their sources for info,

Building up a network of contacts is basically what many of us have done. I've contacted a lot of FSU women in the past. I would like to see what was said in Whelen's VK account. Did he agree to meet a Russian for top secret info or for a simple gift such as a matryoshka doll and instead was handed a flash drive just before the FSB busted down the door? If Whelen was a professional American spy, he would know better than to obtain spy material at a hotel known for being bugged and in a place that's not easy to escape.

Day after Whelen was arrested, a Russian was arrested on US territory. He was on the run since 2017.

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-too-early-consider-exchange-152616680.html
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on January 06, 2019, 03:09:00 PM
D. Makarenko was detained (arrested) on the 29th of December by the FBI together with his entire family (wife and kids).  The Russians were notified only two days ago, but the news was in the press before that. It appears he was exporting/shipping night scope vision type products and components. Most of the charges seem more technical bank related. One report has him sending the shipments to the States!

For the good order the Northern Mariana Islands are on Western side of the Pacific Ocean and a Commonwealth under the protection of the United States.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 06, 2019, 03:25:18 PM

The theft of night vision goggles is the most serious crime. Money can be replaced.

When I was in the Army in the early 90's, there are two things that prevent soldiers from going home after a field exercise, a lost weapon or lost night vision goggles. Everybody will be ordered to stay in the forest until the item is found. America doesn't want it's night vision technology to get into the hands of enemies.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2019, 06:33:07 AM
Billy, you are wrong. He was charged before I wrote about it up thread. You might be getting confused by a lack of reporting in the US newd/entertainment media.

From reports in more open media it would seem that he was caught in a sting operation which would fit with the information I shared a few days ago.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: AvHdB on January 08, 2019, 06:48:49 AM
Andrew, for the good order I assume you are speaking of Mr. Whelan of Moscow.
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 08, 2019, 09:39:28 AM

Andrew my mistake, Whelen was arrested and charged with espionage. What we're lacking is exactly what he did since Russia hasn't released that info. Only speculation on what he's done and who is the Russian he met and was he arrested or not? If that Russian wasn't arrested, I suspect the Russian government set Whelen up baiting him on VK. Here's a sample of what we get in the States for news.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/03/us/russia-paul-whelan-espionage-charge/index.html
Title: Re: American suspected or spying arrested in Russia
Post by: BillyB on January 09, 2019, 11:55:02 AM
In 1986 an American was used as a pawn in the spy game and set up by Russia. Understands what Whelen is going through since story is similiar. His story below.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/08/i-was-traded-russian-spy-i-know-what-paul-whelan-is-going-through/?utm_term=.9ab05535fba3