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General Discussion => General Chat => Topic started by: Manny on September 10, 2015, 09:41:36 AM

Title: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 10, 2015, 09:41:36 AM
I bet that title surprised you coming from me!  :-*

Shakey sent me a gift in the mail that arrived today.

[attachimg=1]

My reading it is proof indeed that I have an open mind contrary to what some here think.  :reading:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on September 10, 2015, 11:53:16 AM
You just spoiled Andrewfi's surprise

 ;D
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 10, 2015, 11:57:48 AM
Sorry, has he got one too?  :hidechair:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on September 10, 2015, 12:06:10 PM
Sorry, has he got one too?  :hidechair:

Will you actually read the entire book with an open mind?  I will be very impressed if you do!   :)
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on September 10, 2015, 01:53:44 PM
Sorry, has he got one too?  :hidechair:

There's one on the way.  I don't know if he's received it yet.

Both are genuine autographed by me copies   :king:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 10, 2015, 02:08:47 PM
Will you actually read the entire book with an open mind?  I will be very impressed if you do!   :)

I can try. I am currently sawing my way through Mein Kampf years after I last did, so as that is heavy going, I shall break off for this one.  :nod:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: NS1 on September 10, 2015, 04:27:58 PM
My bet is you are reading it as much to see what it says as you are to make fun of
it, open mind HAHAHAHA :chuckle:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 10, 2015, 05:02:26 PM
My bet is you are reading it as much to see what it says as you are to make fun of
it, open mind HAHAHAHA :chuckle:

Buy it and give us your review.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on September 10, 2015, 05:44:24 PM
One can approach with an open mind but the very purpose of the document is to persuade and thereby close the mind. The trick is to finish reading with a mind as open as it was before starting.

Unless Cheney has undergone a Damacene revelation there is unlikely to  be any earthshattering insight to be found. He is unlikely to have found a rapprochement with Obama and is pretty likely to be justifying his take on foreign policy during his time in high office.

Had either of the first two cases occurred then i doubt we would need a book to know about it.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 13, 2015, 07:09:56 AM
Its quite interesting up to now actually. It walks the reader through history as Cheney sees it first, starting off with the founding fathers and the usual stuff about freedom and liberty, and he dwells on the relationship between the US and Europe in the second world war somewhat.

Reading through the lines you start to see the changes in attitude from what started out as good sound principles of freedom and liberty to what we see today (not sure he intended that to show through as clearly as it does). From what I deduced, it was somewhere between the end of the Vietnam war and the arrival of Carter as president the US started to become noticeably aggressive and interventionist abroad.

The book implies that Reagan was single handedly responsible for bringing down the Berlin wall with his Brandenburg speech.  :-\

It is an interesting read up to now for the non-American as it offers an insight into *why* Americans think as they do.

More later.  :reading:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on September 13, 2015, 07:55:16 AM
Yes, I look forward to giving it a go. Thanks Shakespear. As yet I have not received the document. Buggers will likely send me a notice that I have to go collect it and pay €1 VAT or something.

Given Cheney's position it is hardly surprising that he writes as he does - what is there to hide? Justify, yes, but hide - no. After all his is the correct position, yes?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on September 13, 2015, 09:37:49 AM
It is an interesting read up to now for the non-American as it offers an insight into *why* Americans think as they do.

That's EXACTLY why I sent it to you guys.  So you could gain a little insight.  Walk a mile in the other man's moccasins.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on September 13, 2015, 09:38:58 AM
Yes, I look forward to giving it a go. Thanks Shakespear. As yet I have not received the document. Buggers will likely send me a notice that I have to go collect it and pay €1 VAT or something.

Don't think so, I listed the value as $10US, but perhaps my signature adds additional value.   :king:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on September 13, 2015, 11:28:17 AM
Its quite interesting up to now actually. It walks the reader through history as Cheney sees it first, starting off with the founding fathers and the usual stuff about freedom and liberty, and he dwells on the relationship between the US and Europe in the second world war somewhat.

Reading through the lines you start to see the changes in attitude from what started out as good sound principles of freedom and liberty to what we see today (not sure he intended that to show through as clearly as it does). From what I deduced, it was somewhere between the end of the Vietnam war and the arrival of Carter as president the US started to become noticeably aggressive and interventionist abroad.

The book implies that Reagan was single handedly responsible for bringing down the Berlin wall with his Brandenburg speech.  :-\

It is an interesting read up to now for the non-American as it offers an insight into *why* Americans think as they do.

More later.  :reading:

Great review!  I'm very impressed not only that you are reading it but that you've grasped the details of how many Americans believe and feel about the World.  FWIW I am generally not a fan of Cheney due to his actions leading up the the Iraq war however I am a patriot so I identify with that portion.  Many Republicans I know don't like the Bush Jr./Cheney Presidency as it was not fiscally conservative nor do we care for too much NSA crap nor did we agree with the Iraq war once we saw that we were clearly deceived by the neo-cons, key word being con.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 13, 2015, 01:06:55 PM
What is disappointing in a way is how he described the principles the US was founded on and its early development (I suppose we all knew them anyway but they are well presented therein). He describes a country that anyone would want to live in.

What I see as an outsider (and occasional visitor), is how far wide of that mark and those intended standards the US has become, both with actions abroad and the influence of big media and business on the masses and the political decision making. But that happens anywhere.

I had no opinion on Cheney one way or another, so I can read his opinions without any particular bias against the guy. He seems to have a dim view of Obama, but then again, so do most Americans.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on September 13, 2015, 01:50:56 PM
What I see as an outsider (and occasional visitor), is how far wide of that mark and those intended standards the US has become, both with actions abroad and the influence of big media and business on the masses and the political decision making. But that happens anywhere.

I had no opinion on Cheney one way or another, so I can read his opinions without any particular bias against the guy. He seems to have a dim view of Obama, but then again, so do most Americans.  :chuckle:


Our media is about 95% unthinking left-wing fuzzy feel good BS which is precisely how Obama came to power.  However now a major portion of the population has finally woken up to how severely incompetent Obama is but not only this a large percentage (the 20% who normally does not vote) are disgusted with political insiders in general and this is why Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina and Donald Trump have all surged in the polls.  The indications IMO are that I have a decent chance of winning my bet with Shakespear, but more importantly to myself and others is that a Republican landslide like never before in the history of this country is coming in 2016.   :plane:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on September 16, 2015, 02:25:02 PM
I consider this a truth -

When America becomes less involved with world affairs, the "bad guys" in the world take that as a sign of weakness and expand their sphere of influence to the detriment of the world in general.  This is why the world NEEDS a powerful America and America needs a leader who is not afraid to use that power. 

I submit the book titled above as proof of this statement.

Andrewfi, did you ever receive your copy via Estonia mail?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on September 16, 2015, 02:37:20 PM
I am finding untruths and flawed thinking already. The bloke is the Neocon of Neocons.

He seems scornful of any president who didn't want to bail into any country all guns blazing at the drop of a hat. He thinks the Iraq war was a terrific idea. Obama and Clinton have had scorn up to now. He seems to like the Bushes.

It started out well but seems to be going downhill with his train of thought......
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on September 16, 2015, 02:47:02 PM
No book yet.

By the way,  just  in case any here were under the impression that I am in favour of a weak USA I'd refer you to any number of posts I have written stating the contrary. I do believe that a single superpower is bad for the world, I absolutely believe that the US has spent many years abusing it's position. In addition I know that the period of dominance is coming to an end.

A multipolar world in which no single state can,  with impunity,  seek to violently advantage itself to the detriment of all others,  which can call tself 'exceptional' and use that as justification for genuinely evil acts is better than the current state of affairs.

I have also noted that the inevitable change will itself be painful, although the USA has a part to play in ameliorating that disruption - current evidence suggests that no such attitude is present or likely to emerge.

A world in which the US becomes a second rate economy is not what we need to see,  although,  sadly, that seems to be the end game of current US policy, albeit that thus is not the intended outcome.

The current world leaders do not,  I am sure, wish to see the demise of the US and,  to repeat, neither do I.

You guys need to sort out the corruption inherent in your machinery of state because it is that corruption that will be the undoing of the Land of the Free.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on September 19, 2015, 09:59:19 AM
I yesterday I received a notification to go and pick the book up, thanks. I should get it early next week.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 07, 2015, 02:58:40 PM
What is disappointing in a way is how he described the principles the US was founded on and its early development (I suppose we all knew them anyway but they are well presented therein). He describes a country that anyone would want to live in.

What I see as an outsider (and occasional visitor), is how far wide of that mark and those intended standards the US has become, both with actions abroad and the influence of big media and business on the masses and the political decision making. But that happens anywhere.

I had no opinion on Cheney one way or another, so I can read his opinions without any particular bias against the guy. He seems to have a dim view of Obama, but then again, so do most Americans.  :chuckle:

I've finished it now and, well, what to say.   :'(

As I said above, it started out well.

Then it gives a scary insight into the neocon mind. Example: Indignation that Assad didn't step down as Obama "instructed" him to do. Really!  :ROFL:

About a third of it is taken up with quotes from other neocons to support his worldview, with some commentary in-between.

Then follows page after page of quotes from Obama with him trying to rip it to bits. The thing was, after reading Obama's stuff, I am actually starting to like the bloke.  :o

Then he launches into the real out there stuff: Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, etc were all *super* ideas and they should have gone much, much further.  :sick0012:

He thinks Russia is still the USSR, and must be hemmed in and castrated at any cost. He has similar views of China.

Then there is page after page of what he thinks the next president should do, which basically is rule the world and start World War 3 to do it.

It rounds off with a cuffy-style General Cheeseburger rant about "exceptional", greatest country in the world, apple pie on Sunday, blah blah.  :coffeeread:

I can only say its great that this old duffer was put out to grass. If one who thinks like him gets in the Whitehouse, there will be world war for sure.

All in all it was a disturbing journey into a disturbing mindset. After reading it, I am surer than I ever was of the need to contain American aggression around the world and de-dollarise. I came out of it - unintentionally - with a new-found fondness for some of Obama's ideas.

Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America

Should read:

Dangerous: Why the World Doesn't Need a Powerful America

Many people on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Exceptional-World-Needs-Powerful-America/product-reviews/1501115413/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=helpful&formatType=all_formats) agree.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Maxx on October 08, 2015, 09:58:54 AM

All in all it was a disturbing journey into a disturbing mindset. After reading it, I am surer than I ever was of the need to contain American aggression around the world and de-dollarise. I came out of it - unintentionally - with a new-found fondness for some of Obama's ideas.


Please don't come to that conclusion. Obama is just another choice of poison. We need Trump who says he thinks he can get along with Putin. Two real men working things out.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 09, 2015, 03:16:41 PM
I've finished it now and, well, what to say.   :'(

I didn't expect you would change your opinions.

I wanted you to read it so you might better understand how Americans perceive themselves and our perspective on foreign policy.

We perceive ourselves to be the "good guys" and we get flustered when we hear people in other democratic countries think otherwise.   
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 09, 2015, 04:02:39 PM
I wanted you to read it so you might better understand how Americans perceive themselves and our perspective on foreign policy.

We perceive ourselves to be the "good guys" and we get flustered when we hear people in other democratic countries think otherwise.

I suppose how many of you think like that is the question.

If killing leaders of other nations and bombing hospitals makes you good guys, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 09, 2015, 08:58:43 PM

All in all it was a disturbing journey into a disturbing mindset. After reading it, I am surer than I ever was of the need to contain American aggression around the world and de-dollarise. I came out of it - unintentionally - with a new-found fondness for some of Obama's ideas.


Please don't come to that conclusion. Obama is just another choice of poison. We need Trump who says he thinks he can get along with Putin. Two real men working things out.

He only likes Obama now because of Obama's epic weakness, which has allowed Russia to do what they are doing.  Do you really think that Putin would be on the rampage he's on if we still had George Bush Jr. or someone like him?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 10, 2015, 02:08:02 AM
He only likes Obama now because of Obama's epic weakness, which has allowed Russia to do what they are doing. 

See, here we see the same language as he book. What Cheney calls Obama's "weakness" often looks like sensible behaviour.

And here is the other thing: It isn't up to the US to "allow" Russia to do anything. It is exactly that mindset that causes friction between Russia and the US. And why they ignore US opinion.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 10, 2015, 09:21:08 AM
See, here we see the same language as he book. What Cheney calls Obama's "weakness" often looks like sensible behaviour.

And here is the other thing: It isn't up to the US to "allow" Russia to do anything. It is exactly that mindset that causes friction between Russia and the US. And why they ignore US opinion.

"Sensible behavior" for a European with a laissez-faire view of international tyranny and human rights abuses. 

Lenin, speaking about moving a cause forward, once said: “Probe with a bayonet: if you meet steel, stop. If you meet mush, then push.”  This is all that Putin is doing because of the weak, indecisive foreign policy of the Obama Administration.  Putin doesn't fear the man or fear what he might do because he knows he doesn't have the character or moral fiber to take any serious action.   
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 10, 2015, 09:31:19 AM
See, here we see the same language as he book. What Cheney calls Obama's "weakness" often looks like sensible behaviour.

And here is the other thing: It isn't up to the US to "allow" Russia to do anything. It is exactly that mindset that causes friction between Russia and the US. And why they ignore US opinion.

"Sensible behavior" for a European with a laissez-faire view of international tyranny and human rights abuses. 

The US is guilty if more international tyranny and human rights abuses than any other nation.

Lenin, speaking about moving a cause forward, once said: “Probe with a bayonet: if you meet steel, stop. If you meet mush, then push.”  This is all that Putin is doing because of the weak, indecisive foreign policy of the Obama Administration.  Putin doesn't fear the man or fear what he might do because he knows he doesn't have the character or moral fiber to take any serious action.

What you don't see (and nor does Cheney) but Putin does, is the US has attempted to appoint itself as world cop. That many countries will disregard that self appointed title cannot be such a surprise.

I doubt that Putin or Russia would "fear" the US whoever you had in there. I think you don't get the Russian mindset about these things. As Putin has pointed out, they wont be lectured by a nation that systematically goes around the world causing unrest, regime change and wars. Nor will they be bullied by US scare tactics.

Not going to change unless you get a sensible president who isn't a warmonger.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 10, 2015, 11:08:55 AM
He only likes Obama now because of Obama's epic weakness, which has allowed Russia to do what they are doing. 

See, here we see the same language as he book. What Cheney calls Obama's "weakness" often looks like sensible behaviour.

And here is the other thing: It isn't up to the US to "allow" Russia to do anything. It is exactly that mindset that causes friction between Russia and the US. And why they ignore US opinion.

After WWI chemical weapons were outlawed.  It is up to the UN and NATO to punish the dictator Assad and take him out of power if need be, for using chemical weapons on his own people.  Contrary to your preferred narrative the refugee crisis was not caused by US actions, it was caused by Assad's heinous actions. 

When there is US leadership again you can be sure this situation will be dealt with.   :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 10, 2015, 11:48:38 AM
It is up to the UN and NATO to punish the dictator Assad and take him out of power if need be,

So, not the US then, as I said.  :coffeeread:

and take him out of power if need be,

Not happening without Russia's agreement. Hard to get used to over the pond perhaps that the US is not calling the shots here.

for using chemical weapons on his own people. 

There seems to be some doubt about that. Rather like WMD of days gone by.

the refugee crisis was not caused by US actions, it was caused by Assad's heinous actions. 

Yes of course.  (:)  Nobody wants to get away from ISIS, its just Assad controlling less than half of Syria isn't it? Read that and see how silly what you said sounds.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 12, 2015, 09:54:02 AM
It is up to the UN and NATO to punish the dictator Assad and take him out of power if need be,

So, not the US then, as I said.  :coffeeread:

and take him out of power if need be,

Not happening without Russia's agreement. Hard to get used to over the pond perhaps that the US is not calling the shots here.

for using chemical weapons on his own people. 

There seems to be some doubt about that. Rather like WMD of days gone by.

the refugee crisis was not caused by US actions, it was caused by Assad's heinous actions. 

Yes of course.  (:)  Nobody wants to get away from ISIS, its just Assad controlling less than half of Syria isn't it? Read that and see how silly what you said sounds.

1.  The USA is the leading member of NATO, in case you forgot.  The UN is headquartered in NYC in the USA, and they bow to our political leadership, in case you forgot.  Perhaps I should refresh your memory when you admitted just such, by claiming that the lopsided vote condemning the annexation of Crimea was due to US pressure?

2.  Russia's military is no match for the full-force of the US military.  We just need a real leader to unleash the beast, and we will have it come 2017.  Enjoy the illusion while you can, it won't last long.

3.  Free Syrian rebels took out 24 Russian tanks in quick order, with anti-tank missiles supplied by the United States.  Try as Obama might to avoid a conflict with Russia, it's coming and it's going to make the Afghanistan debacle which caused the fall of the USSR look tame in comparison.   :coffeeread:


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/did-us-weapons-supplied-to-syrian-rebels-draw-russia-into-the-conflict/ar-AAflcv0?li=BBgzzfc
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 12, 2015, 12:33:49 PM
3.  Free Syrian rebels took out 24 Russian tanks in quick order, with anti-tank missiles supplied by the United States.  Try as Obama might to avoid a conflict with Russia, it's coming and it's going to make the Afghanistan debacle which caused the fall of the USSR look tame in comparison.   

Wait until a shipment of FIM-92 Stinger missiles arrive.

You won't hear too much about Russian air strikes after that. . . . . . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 12, 2015, 11:02:28 PM
3.  Free Syrian rebels took out 24 Russian tanks in quick order, with anti-tank missiles supplied by the United States.  Try as Obama might to avoid a conflict with Russia, it's coming and it's going to make the Afghanistan debacle which caused the fall of the USSR look tame in comparison.   

Wait until a shipment of FIM-92 Stinger missiles arrive.

You won't hear too much about Russian air strikes after that. . . . . . . . . . . .

True 'dat!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 13, 2015, 02:45:17 AM
3.  Free Syrian rebels took out 24 Russian tanks in quick order, with anti-tank missiles supplied by the United States.  Try as Obama might to avoid a conflict with Russia, it's coming and it's going to make the Afghanistan debacle which caused the fall of the USSR look tame in comparison.   

Wait until a shipment of FIM-92 Stinger missiles arrive.

You won't hear too much about Russian air strikes after that. . . . . . . . . . . .

True 'dat!   :laugh:
I think we wont see Stinger missiles there, because the USA doesn't want to fight Russia. They want to fight ISIS, but with the option to remove Assad, whilst Russia wants to fight ISIS.

See the distinction? I think Russia's plan is better. Worry about Assad later, when the true terrorists are defeated.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 08:14:57 AM
I think we wont see Stinger missiles there, because the USA doesn't want to fight Russia. They want to fight ISIS, but with the option to remove Assad, whilst Russia wants to fight ISIS.

See the distinction? I think Russia's plan is better. Worry about Assad later, when the true terrorists are defeated.

I think there is a flaw in your thinking. 

USA wants to fight BOTH Assad and ISIS using local liberty seeking patriots.

Russia wants to remove the local liberty seeking patriots, retain Assad and make it so the only enemy to fight is ISIL.

I guess that when the time is right (missile shipment arrived) the US government will announce a formal "no fly" zone for Russian aircraft within Syrian borders.  There will be one warning and then the locals will start shooting Russian airplanes out of the sky.   
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 13, 2015, 08:33:48 AM
I think there is a flaw in your thinking. 

USA wants to fight BOTH Assad and ISIS using local liberty seeking patriots.

There are no local liberty seeking patriots, only terrorists. I think 10+ years of irak, afghanistan, Kuwait, Libya, and now Syria have thought you guys that.

Those countries need a strong dictator-like leader to keep the crazies in check, thats what you still don't get after all this time.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 08:39:14 AM

Those countries need a strong dictator-like leader to keep the crazies in check, thats what you still don't get after all this time.

I can't believe your memory is this short-sighted.

How'd that "strong dictator" work out for your country in 1941-1945?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 13, 2015, 08:41:59 AM
How'd that "strong dictator" work out for your country in 1941-1945?
Aww man, godwins law. I win.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 08:49:59 AM
Aww man, godwins law. I win.

All humor aside, Assad is a butcher.  I figured Europeans would be sensitive and understand the negative impact such a man can have on humanity.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 13, 2015, 08:54:37 AM
Aww man, godwins law. I win.

All humor aside, Assad is a butcher.  I figured Europeans would be sensitive and understand the negative impact such a man can have on humanity.
Assad may be a butcher, but people weren't fleeing Syria by the millions when he was in charge, like they do now when ISIS is roaming around.

Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 09:41:05 AM
Assad may be a butcher, but people weren't fleeing Syria by the millions when he was in charge, like they do now when ISIS is roaming around.

They're fleeing BECAUSE of Assad and his use of chemical weapons on them.  Isis is just icing on the cake. 
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Maxx on October 13, 2015, 09:50:55 AM
Assad may be a butcher, but people weren't fleeing Syria by the millions when he was in charge, like they do now when ISIS is roaming around.

They're fleeing BECAUSE of Assad and his use of chemical weapons on them.  Isis is just icing on the cake.

You are being deceived Shakespear. The same people running the US military and NATO are the same ones in Washington you despise. I am talking about Obama and not known to you his CIA masterminds with their false flag operations (you named one of them) and the(ir) Main Stream Media.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on October 13, 2015, 10:27:00 AM
Assad may be a butcher, but people weren't fleeing Syria by the millions when he was in charge, like they do now when ISIS is roaming around.

They're fleeing BECAUSE of Assad and his use of chemical weapons on them.  Isis is just icing on the cake.

You don't honestly believe that do you?
A serious matter about which to joke but if that was supposed to be humorous how about using a smiley face or something similar?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: leslied on October 13, 2015, 10:37:23 AM
I guess that when the time is right (missile shipment arrived) the US government will announce a formal "no fly" zone for Russian aircraft within Syrian borders.  There will be one warning and then the locals will start shooting Russian airplanes out of the sky.

Illegal under international law.  Period.  Not that the US cares about international law but if the Russians start supplying Al Quaeda cells in USA with portable SAM missiles what would you think or do?

Syria was peaceful before the west started to foment regime change.  OK Assad was a dictator but he was acting like the whitest angel descended from heaven compared to how Al Nusrah (your terrorists!) behave right now...

Sure as the civil war progressed Assad became more brutal - after all he was fighting for survival against the most brutal foes you can imagine.  I visited Syria several times before this all began.  I live 5 hours drive from the Syrian border. The west has devastated a sovereign nation and shows not the slightest remorse...
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 13, 2015, 10:37:56 AM
Assad may be a butcher, but people weren't fleeing Syria by the millions when he was in charge, like they do now when ISIS is roaming around.

They're fleeing BECAUSE of Assad and his use of chemical weapons on them.  Isis is just icing on the cake.

Exactly.  Furthermore Russian airstrikes are not hitting ISIS, they are hitting Assad opposition forces.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 13, 2015, 10:56:14 AM
I guess that when the time is right (missile shipment arrived) the US government will announce a formal "no fly" zone for Russian aircraft within Syrian borders.  There will be one warning and then the locals will start shooting Russian airplanes out of the sky.

Illegal under international law.  Period.  Not that the US cares about international law but if the Russians start supplying Al Quaeda cells in USA with portable SAM missiles what would you think or do?

Syria was peaceful before the west started to foment regime change.  OK Assad was a dictator but he was acting like the whitest angel descended from heaven compared to how Al Nusrah (your terrorists!) behave right now...

Sure as the civil war progressed Assad became more brutal - after all he was fighting for survival against the most brutal foes you can imagine.  I visited Syria several times before this all began.  I live 5 hours drive from the Syrian border. The west has devastated a sovereign nation and shows not the slightest remorse...

Illegal under International law?   :ROFL:

This from a person who supports Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea...

My rebuttal to your bolded statement at the end is that the East (Russia) has devastated a sovereign nation as well (Ukraine) and shows not the slightest remorse.

As to the totality of your claims there certainly are two competing narratives, no doubt about that. 
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 11:44:49 AM
You don't honestly believe that do you?

Yes.  It's the truth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-sarin-gas-attack-in-2013-60-minutes/
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 11:48:38 AM
Illegal under international law.  Period.  Not that the US cares about international law but if the Russians start supplying Al Quaeda cells in USA with portable SAM missiles what would you think or do? 

Same things the Russians would do if we provided terrorists within the Russian borders with weaponry.

It was the USA that provided Afgan rebels this type of weaponry and caused Russians defeat in that war.





Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: leslied on October 13, 2015, 12:25:28 PM
It was the USA that provided Afgan rebels this type of weaponry and caused Russians defeat in that war.

Yes, you armed the Mujahideen who morphed into the Taliban who demonstrated their gratitude on 9/11...
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 12:27:33 PM
Yes, you armed the Mujahideen who morphed into the Taliban who demonstrated their gratitude on 9/11...

The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 13, 2015, 12:45:45 PM
Assad may be a butcher, but people weren't fleeing Syria by the millions when he was in charge, like they do now when ISIS is roaming around.

They're fleeing BECAUSE of Assad and his use of chemical weapons on them.  Isis is just icing on the cake.

Exactly.  Furthermore Russian airstrikes are not hitting ISIS, they are hitting Assad opposition forces.

Really now, thats not what the Russians say, and they backed it up with high-res satellite images and video footage. (AKA hard proof).

Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 01:15:36 PM
Really now, thats not what the Russians say, and they backed it up with high-res satellite images and video footage. (AKA hard proof).

The Russians have carefully word-smithed their reply.

They claim they hit "terrorist" targets.  They've not claimed to hit ISIL targets.   
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: yankee on October 13, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
Really now, thats not what the Russians say, and they backed it up with high-res satellite images and video footage. (AKA hard proof).

The Russians have carefully word-smithed their reply.

They claim they hit "terrorist" targets.  They've not claimed to hit ISIL targets.

Pray tell me.  What is the difference other than different organizations?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 02:13:44 PM
Pray tell me.  What is the difference other than different organizations?

The former is backed by the US government.  The later is not. 
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: leslied on October 13, 2015, 02:38:48 PM
Yes, you armed the Mujahideen who morphed into the Taliban who demonstrated their gratitude on 9/11...

The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.

Bullshite !

The Taliban regime faced international scrutiny and condemnation for its policies. Only Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as Afghanistan's legitimate government. After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the U.S., Saudi Arabia and the UAE cut diplomatic ties with the Taliban.

The Taliban allowed terrorist organizations to run training camps in their territory and, from 1994 to at least 2001, provided refuge for Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda organization. The relationship between the Taliban and bin Laden was close, even familial—bin Laden fought with the mujahideen, has financed the Taliban, and one of his daughters is reportedly married to Mullah Muhammad Omar. The United Nations Security Council passed two resolutions, UNSCR 1267 (1999) and 1333 (2000), demanding that the Taliban cease their support for terrorism and hand over bin Laden for trial.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html)
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: yankee on October 13, 2015, 03:28:08 PM
Pray tell me.  What is the difference other than different organizations?

The former is backed by the US government.  The later is not.

So thoes that are al-Qaeda are backed by the US government?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 13, 2015, 03:35:43 PM
So those that are al-Qaeda are backed by the US government?

None of the groups that the USA is backing is backed by al-Qaeda.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: yankee on October 13, 2015, 04:07:33 PM
So those that are al-Qaeda are backed by the US government?

None of the groups that the USA is backing is backed by al-Qaeda.

I really do not know how respond to your statement.  So, some of the rebels are good terrorist and some are bad?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 14, 2015, 01:55:49 AM

I really do not know how respond to your statement.  So, some of the rebels are good terrorist and some are bad?
Standup comedians had a field day with this statement already 5+ years ago when Syria wasn't in the picture.

Deja-VU anyone ?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 14, 2015, 12:32:11 PM

I really do not know how respond to your statement.  So, some of the rebels are good terrorist and some are bad?
Standup comedians had a field day with this statement already 5+ years ago when Syria wasn't in the picture.

Deja-VU anyone ?

Afghanistan and the fall of the former Soviet Empire, Syria and the fall of the current Russian regime.  Deja Vu anyone?   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 14, 2015, 11:30:53 PM

Afghanistan and the fall of the former Soviet Empire, Syria and the fall of the current Russian regime.  Deja Vu anyone?   :chuckle:
I didn't see the current Russian regime fall, if anything Putin is more popular than ever in his own country.  The sanctions and aggressive language the west is spouting is giving him a good lightning-rod to focus the malcontents upon.

And the fall of a government isn't nearly as bad as the fall of the SU was. Otherwise Netherlands would be in trouble, we had 3 governments fail in a row. (Balkenende-1, balkenende2 , balkenende 3 (geez, you'd think they learn after the first two times. 3x a winner?)

The governments were renamed by many to "bakellende" meaning "Box of misery" literally.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Texan77 on October 15, 2015, 02:51:02 AM

Afghanistan and the fall of the former Soviet Empire, Syria and the fall of the current Russian regime.  Deja Vu anyone?   :chuckle:
I didn't see the current Russian regime fall, if anything Putin is more popular than ever in his own country.  The sanctions and aggressive language the west is spouting is giving him a good lightning-rod to focus the malcontents upon.

And the fall of a government isn't nearly as bad as the fall of the SU was. Otherwise Netherlands would be in trouble, we had 3 governments fail in a row. (Balkenende-1, balkenende2 , balkenende 3 (geez, you'd think they learn after the first two times. 3x a winner?)

The governments were renamed by many to "bakellende" meaning "Box of misery" literally.

Yes Putin has found the way to stay in power is to stay at war. First the Ukraine. Now that war is wearing out now it is in Syria. In about two years it will be ???? After about ten years maybe Russians will see the pattern and get tired of this?

The Netherlands and Australia have a large part of their economy base on natural resources like Russia. When price of commodities started to fall and living standards started to fall, Russia went to war in the Ukraine and now Syria. Putin stays in power while these other countries can not keep a government. No body here has said Putin was dumb.

Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Markje on October 15, 2015, 03:47:56 AM

The Netherlands and Australia have a large part of their economy base on natural resources like Russia. When price of commodities started to fall and living standards started to fall, Russia went to war in the Ukraine and now Syria. Putin stays in power while these other countries can not keep a government. No body here has said Putin was dumb.
I can't say for Australia, but Netherlands economy is based upon trade (import/export) and knowledge (service-companies).

Unfortunately, both suffer immediately if other countries do not have money to buy stuff or services from highly trained professionals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Netherlands
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on October 15, 2015, 04:22:21 AM
You don't honestly believe that do you?

Yes.  It's the truth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-sarin-gas-attack-in-2013-60-minutes/

Oh it was on the news so it must be true.
So,  which bits are the untrue bits?

You know better than this mate, stop making an ass of yourself.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Danchik on October 15, 2015, 05:01:51 AM
This thread is a perfect example of just how oblivious to reality certain Americans are; not only to their own failings, but to the possibility that other people/countries exhibit exceptionalism as well. They actually think they are God's chosen people.

Their (the ones who agree with "The Dick") ability to turn a blind eye to the actions of their country geopolitically, yet coincidentally condemning similar actions taken to a lesser degree by anyone else, continues to boggle the mind.

Dick Chaney and this book are POS. If anything this megalomaniac should be facing war crimes. That Americans, or any American buys into his schlock only serves to reinforce the opinion that certain Americans eat this crap up like a double bacon cheeseburger with all the trimmings. Thankfully, there are many who don't but into it, and this breed is a dying one.

Great leaders, be it a person or a country, lead by delegating, not dominating. They lead by setting examples, not defining hypocrisy, and by communication and acceptance of other points of views. They inspire and they accept responsibility for their actions; not lay blame elsewhere for their failures.

These are not the qualities I see coming from America, and no, it has nothing to do with Obama. Unfortunately, I see America as analogous to a boy who when confronted with situations not to his liking, but fair to the whole concerned, simply wants to take his ball and go home (i.e. bomb you) until he gets his way.

Exceptionally great countries do not present themselves in this manner. Exceptionally great people know the difference.



 
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 15, 2015, 05:10:00 AM
This thread is a perfect example of just how oblivious to reality certain Americans are; not only to their own failings, but to the possibility that other people/countries exhibit exceptionalism as well. They actually think they are God's chosen people.

Their (the ones who agree with "The Dick") ability to turn a blind eye to the actions of their country geopolitically, yet coincidentally condemning similar actions taken to a lesser degree by anyone else, continues to boggle the mind.

Dick Chaney and this book are POS. If anything this megalomaniac should be facing war crimes. That Americans, or any American buys into his schlock only serves to reinforce the opinion that certain Americans eat this crap up like a double bacon cheeseburger with all the trimmings. Thankfully, there are many who don't but into it, and this breed is a dying one.

Great leaders, be it a person or a country, lead by delegating, not dominating. They lead by setting examples, not defining hypocrisy, and by communication and acceptance of other points of views. They inspire and they accept responsibility for their actions; not lay blame elsewhere for their failures.

These are not the qualities I see coming from America, and no, it has nothing to do with Obama. Unfortunately, I see America as analogous to a boy who when confronted with situations not to his liking, but fair to the whole concerned, simply wants to take his ball and go home (i.e. bomb you) until he gets his way.

Exceptionally great countries do not present themselves in this manner. Exceptionally great people know the difference.

What a bloody good post.  :bow:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on October 15, 2015, 06:02:57 AM
I agree with you Dan.

The louder I have to tell the world something the less likely it is to be valid, or true.

We do not often get a chance to see two world leaders given an equal opportunity, same stage, same audience and same topic to demonstrate just what they are.

I commend to everyone reading this to watch the two speeches given by Obama and then by Putin at the United Nations General Assembly. You will get a good idea of what Dan was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaJkTsy2SsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q13yzl6k6w0

And if you can find an extra few minutes maybe look at President Xi Jinping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdjmgQ0RklY

Yes, one may criticise Obama as a person and for his abilities, but this is a man supposed to be good at speechifying, particularly with a teleprompter, so what we are looking at here is the attitudes - what the guys say as representatives of their respective nations.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 15, 2015, 08:08:25 AM

Oh it was on the news so it must be true.
So,  which bits are the untrue bits?

You know better than this mate, stop making an ass of yourself.

Did you watch the video in the news report?

Impossible to fake the HUNDREDS of corpses twisted in death by sarin gas.

Denying this happened is like denying the Holocaust happened. 
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: yankee on October 15, 2015, 08:39:03 AM

Oh it was on the news so it must be true.
So,  which bits are the untrue bits?

You know better than this mate, stop making an ass of yourself.



Did you watch the video in the news report?

Impossible to fake the HUNDREDS of corpses twisted in death by sarin gas.

Denying this happened is like denying the Holocaust happened.

You are right. Cannot ignore that.  Tell me what is worse for killing 100s  of people.  Bombs , napalm (used to be the US's favorite) or Sarin?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 15, 2015, 09:12:39 AM
Tell me what is worse for killing 100s of people.  Bombs, napalm (used to be the US's favorite) or Sarin? 

War is hell. 

That said there are certain agreements recognized by civilized nations which outlaw the use of certain weapons.  Dum-Dum bullets for example.  Sarin gas is on that list. 
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Steveboy on October 15, 2015, 09:34:27 AM
Tell me what is worse for killing 100s of people.  Bombs, napalm (used to be the US's favorite) or Sarin? 

War is hell. 

That said there are certain agreements recognized by civilized nations which outlaw the use of certain weapons.  Dum-Dum bullets for example.  Sarin gas is on that list.

Torture is also banned by civilised nations? But the US tortures people on a daily basis all over the world :Zzzzsleep:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 15, 2015, 09:36:24 AM
But the US tortures people on a daily basis all over the world :Zzzzsleep:

Really?

Proof?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: cufflinks on October 15, 2015, 10:02:13 AM
Tell me what is worse for killing 100s of people.  Bombs, napalm (used to be the US's favorite) or Sarin? 

War is hell. 

That said there are certain agreements recognized by civilized nations which outlaw the use of certain weapons.  Dum-Dum bullets for example.  Sarin gas is on that list.

Torture is also banned by civilised nations? But the US tortures people on a daily basis all over the world :Zzzzsleep:

And the UK Crown secret services or the Russians and Middle East Emirates and most of the rest of the Third world do NOT use severe real torture and drugging as a matter of course?

You Euro islamist lovers are so anti american and foolishly naive it is beyond astounding...

Start studying the Koran you will soon have a choice to make - the Sword (beheading knife) or the Koran across all of liberal pro islamist Europe a few EE and FSU countries aside for now.

That I can guarantee with our second amendment and mass latino warrior immigration WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE USA.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Steveboy on October 15, 2015, 10:30:18 AM
But the US tortures people on a daily basis all over the world :Zzzzsleep:

Really?

Proof?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/15/poland-pays-250000-alleged-victims-cia-rendition-torture

http://www.ibtimes.com/guantanamo-bay-torture-sexual-abuse-worse-2014-senate-report-indicated-detainee-1949220

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?hr_us_bases_and_interrogation_centers=hr_campBucca&timeline=torture,_rendition,_and_other_abuses_against_captives_in_iraq,_afghanistan,_and_elsewhere

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=torture,_rendition,_and_other_abuses_against_captives_in_iraq,_afghanistan,_and_elsewhere&hr_us_bases_and_interrogation_centers=hr_campCropper

You have to be a complete and UTTER IDIOT if you are in daniel about  government torturing people on a daily basis, of course some of it maybe hidden a little better now after the public out cry a few months back.

And lets not forget Obama regular shakes hands with the Saudis who are well known for human rights abuses along with torture.

Welcome to the Human race.

But what the heck double standards, murder killing of women and children has been part of Humanity for thousands of years , not going to change to soon I think  :laugh:

What we need is a "Mass extinction event" maybe that will help , but I doubt it. Other than that a complete inhalation of the human race by some superior beings :laugh:

Give some one else a chance, maybe the baboons and Chimps could run a more civilised world ?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on October 15, 2015, 10:40:04 AM
Steve, I think Shakespear is trolling us here. He isn't that daft - he's O.K for an American and has actually gotten himself a passport.

I am sure he does not believe the twaddle he is posting at the moment.

Although his joke gift of Dick Cheney's self justificatory excusam did concern me a little - then I realised that as a new publication he would probably not have had time to read it before sending it to Manny and I.

That Dick bloke - does not improve when you read words he approved (I'd not suggest he wrote the thing). He does not come out of that book at all well.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: cufflinks on October 15, 2015, 10:49:11 AM
But the US tortures people on a daily basis all over the world :Zzzzsleep:

Really?

Proof?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/15/poland-pays-250000-alleged-victims-cia-rendition-torture

http://www.ibtimes.com/guantanamo-bay-torture-sexual-abuse-worse-2014-senate-report-indicated-detainee-1949220

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?hr_us_bases_and_interrogation_centers=hr_campBucca&timeline=torture,_rendition,_and_other_abuses_against_captives_in_iraq,_afghanistan,_and_elsewhere

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=torture,_rendition,_and_other_abuses_against_captives_in_iraq,_afghanistan,_and_elsewhere&hr_us_bases_and_interrogation_centers=hr_campCropper

You have to be a complete and UTTER IDIOT if you are in daniel about  government torturing people on a daily basis, of course some of it maybe hidden a little better now after the public out cry a few months back.

And lets not forget Obama regular shakes hands with the Saudis who are well known for human rights abuses along with torture.

Welcome to the Human race.

But what the heck double standards, murder killing of women and children has been part of Humanity for thousands of years , not going to change to soon I think  :laugh:

What we need is a "Mass extinction event" maybe that will help , but I doubt it. Other than that a complete inhalation of the human race by some superior beings :laugh:

Give some one else a chance, maybe the baboons and Chimps could run a more civilised world ?

LOL Since the RUA forum software offers a rudiamentallary spell and grammar checker must be a massive intake of cheap Rooskie vodka fueled fright night forum flaming again - surprised Afi did not catch that as it is a subject near and dear to himself - obviously he chose to gloss over it.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: WestCoast on October 15, 2015, 11:16:41 AM
Steveboy, Andrew I'm surprised Brits would be speaking of torture. Remember the UK government's dealings with the IRA? Seems the government's hands weren't clean with regard to torture.

George Clooney's lovely wife, Amal is taking the UK government to court accusing the late Ted Heath (anyone remember him?) of authorising the torture of IRA members and others by the British Army.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11594961/Amal-Clooney-to-accuse-late-Prime-Minister-Ted-Heath-of-complicity-in-torture-of-detainees.html

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03298/amil-heath_3298463b.jpg)
Amal Clooney is on the left.

Of course there are any number of other cases of torture by the UK government against the IRA and others.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ira-men-tortured-by-british-officers-1137181.html
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture/


Steveboy you should note that much of the information you posted is from the US Senate Intelligence Committee's torture report and from the Red Cross which the US government allowed access to places such as prisons in Afghanistan and other countries.

It appears that the UK government doesn't release such a report since news of the UK's involvement in torture seems to come out via the UK media. I doubt Russia or China release such reports.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Steveboy on October 15, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
Steveboy, Andrew I'm surprised Brits would be speaking of torture. Remember the UK government's dealings with the IRA? Seems the government's hands weren't clean with regard to torture.

George Clooney's lovely wife, Amal is taking the UK government to court accusing the late Ted Heath (anyone remember him?) of authorising the torture of IRA members and others by the British Army.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11594961/Amal-Clooney-to-accuse-late-Prime-Minister-Ted-Heath-of-complicity-in-torture-of-detainees.html

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03298/amil-heath_3298463b.jpg)
Amal Clooney is on the left.

Of course there are any number of other cases of torture by the UK government against the IRA and others.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ira-men-tortured-by-british-officers-1137181.html
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture/


Steveboy you should note that much of the information you posted is from the US Senate Intelligence Committee's torture report and from the Red Cross which the US government allowed access to places such as prisons in Afghanistan and other countries.

It appears that the UK government doesn't release such a report since news of the UK's involvement in torture seems to come out via the UK media. I doubt Russia or China release such reports.


To be honest I really do not care who's torturing who! Or who's murdering who. Just funny how all in the world Bitch and argue over things whilst they are murdering each other .

So what is the solution to the worlds problems? An extinction event ? I hope so at least it will be something more interesting to talk about :)
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: WestCoast on October 15, 2015, 11:31:23 AM
Steveboy, Andrew I'm surprised Brits would be speaking of torture. Remember the UK government's dealings with the IRA? Seems the government's hands weren't clean with regard to torture.

George Clooney's lovely wife, Amal is taking the UK government to court accusing the late Ted Heath (anyone remember him?) of authorising the torture of IRA members and others by the British Army.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11594961/Amal-Clooney-to-accuse-late-Prime-Minister-Ted-Heath-of-complicity-in-torture-of-detainees.html

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03298/amil-heath_3298463b.jpg)
Amal Clooney is on the left.

Of course there are any number of other cases of torture by the UK government against the IRA and others.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ira-men-tortured-by-british-officers-1137181.html
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture/


Steveboy you should note that much of the information you posted is from the US Senate Intelligence Committee's torture report and from the Red Cross which the US government allowed access to places such as prisons in Afghanistan and other countries.

It appears that the UK government doesn't release such a report since news of the UK's involvement in torture seems to come out via the UK media. I doubt Russia or China release such reports.


To be honest I really do not care who's torturing who! Or who's murdering who. Just funny how all in the world Bitch and argue over things whilst they are murdering each other .

So what is the solution to the worlds problems? An extinction event ? I hope so at least it will be something more interesting to talk about :)

Many people feel the same way. They think a global plague or other natural disaster that would greatly reduce Earth's population would be a good thing for society. To those people I say why wait? It's easy enough to commit suicide nowadays.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 15, 2015, 12:31:46 PM
I am sure he does not believe the twaddle he is posting at the moment.

I do believe it. 

I believe that the world is a better place with a strong morally based superpower who is refereeing the world's conflicts.

I believe in a United States that is exceptional because of the opportunities it offers all its citizens that are not available any place else in the world.

I believe in a United States that stands up for the freedom of people worldwide to establish their own government.

I believe that because our country elected the worst President in our history, the foreign policy he has decided to pursue has made the world a more dangerous and unsettled place.   
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Steveboy on October 15, 2015, 12:49:34 PM
Steveboy, Andrew I'm surprised Brits would be speaking of torture. Remember the UK government's dealings with the IRA? Seems the government's hands weren't clean with regard to torture.

George Clooney's lovely wife, Amal is taking the UK government to court accusing the late Ted Heath (anyone remember him?) of authorising the torture of IRA members and others by the British Army.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11594961/Amal-Clooney-to-accuse-late-Prime-Minister-Ted-Heath-of-complicity-in-torture-of-detainees.html

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03298/amil-heath_3298463b.jpg)
Amal Clooney is on the left.

Of course there are any number of other cases of torture by the UK government against the IRA and others.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ira-men-tortured-by-british-officers-1137181.html
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture/


Steveboy you should note that much of the information you posted is from the US Senate Intelligence Committee's torture report and from the Red Cross which the US government allowed access to places such as prisons in Afghanistan and other countries.

It appears that the UK government doesn't release such a report since news of the UK's involvement in torture seems to come out via the UK media. I doubt Russia or China release such reports.


To be honest I really do not care who's torturing who! Or who's murdering who. Just funny how all in the world Bitch and argue over things whilst they are murdering each other .

So what is the solution to the worlds problems? An extinction event ? I hope so at least it will be something more interesting to talk about :)

Many people feel the same way. They think a global plague or other natural disaster that would greatly reduce Earth's population would be a good thing for society. To those people I say why wait? It's easy enough to commit suicide nowadays.

Im certainly not committing suicide! Im a natural born survivor  :chuckle: Ill wait till the disaster comes :smokin:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Steveboy on October 15, 2015, 12:52:07 PM
I am sure he does not believe the twaddle he is posting at the moment.

I do believe it. 

I believe that the world is a better place with a strong morally based superpower who is refereeing the world's conflicts.

I believe in a United States that is exceptional because of the opportunities it offers all its citizens that are not available any place else in the world.

I believe in a United States that stands up for the freedom of people worldwide to establish their own government.

I believe that because our country elected the worst President in our history, the foreign policy he has decided to pursue has made the world a more dangerous and unsettled place.

They legalised some drugs in your part of the world? But LSD ???
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on October 15, 2015, 01:42:33 PM
Shakespear, I think you don't know what 'exceptional' means in the context of what successive governments have told you. It does not mean what you just told us.

You didn't read Cheney's book did you?
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: shakespear on October 15, 2015, 02:11:16 PM
Shakespear, I think you don't know what 'exceptional' means in the context of what successive governments have told you. It does not mean what you just told us.

You didn't read Cheney's book did you?

I believe your definition is errant.

I'm reading it now.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Manny on October 16, 2015, 08:19:57 AM
I am sure he does not believe the twaddle he is posting at the moment.

I do believe it. 

I believe that the world is a better place with a strong morally based superpower who is refereeing the world's conflicts.

Joint stage with Russia and China would calm you warmongering lot down a bit. It is because you cannot be trusted the world is slowly removing the crown.

I believe in a United States that is exceptional because of the opportunities it offers all its citizens that are not available any place else in the world.

I am not sure all the dead and many of the alive people in all the countries you have invaded and/or changed the government in feel the same.

I believe in a United States that stands up for the freedom of people worldwide to establish their own government.

Your government believes in its own freedom to change governments at will with puppets - not the same.

I believe that because our country elected the worst President in our history, the foreign policy he has decided to pursue has made the world a more dangerous and unsettled place.

Obama correctly understands that the US is a terrorist nation and has tried to wind your neck in a bit. The man is clearly embarrassed at the atrocities that have been committed in the name of your "exceptionalism".
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: andrewfi on October 16, 2015, 09:40:31 AM
Whilst I do not think Obama will go down in history as one of the US' finest presidents he is not as bad as he is portrayed.

That was something I did get from Cheney's retirement gift to the world. What Cheney's excusam gave me was an insight into the insanity that is what we might generally call the Deep State - the people with whom evil men like Cheney would identify. Alongside their evil goes immense power. With that power goes wealth, the kind of wealth that buys countries and presidents and insulates the holders of that wealth from any need to consider the effects of their actions.

Cheney spends a huge part of his book telling us just how Obama, and he personalizes it, which he as a former vice president certainly knows is inaccurate and thus dishonest, should be spending huge amounts of money on increasing the ability of the U.S to be exceptional - to make threats, to buy governments and to keep the world under the boot of the U.S. Make no mistake about it that is what Cheney and his ilk want to see.

Obama, as a person understands, I am certain, that the U.S simply can not do this without further impoverishing both the vast majority of U.S citizens and the citizens of the world. He has done what he can to reduce the burden placed by the U.S on the globe. What he and his administration can do is not much and it is not enough.

In my opinion that insight explains to some degree why Obama was so clearly uncomfortable with the words he was parroting at the UNGA the other week.

From what I can see, apart from inexperience which has led to poor choices in matters that he had the power to control, his biggest failing is that he personalises issues. perhaps that is a fatigue issue, perhaps a personality issue, however it is quite clear that he has personalised aspects of the Russian state of affairs. it is equally obvious that Putin, on a personal level, knows this and both he and his administration are busily using that shortcoming to their immense advantage.

For Cheney and his ilk 'exceptional' does not mean 'the best' at something or other. Exceptional does not mean, as blokes like Brad seem to think, some kind of first among equals, sometimes seen as 'primus inter pares'. These evil people see the position of the U.S, or rather their part of it, as being truly exceptional - a group for whom exceptions must be made: prima et praecipua.

On a personal level I had not understood this issue well enough until Cheney (or his ghostwriters) made this absolutely clear. This insight makes clear certain actions of the United States, certain patterns of behaviour. This makes my personal preference for a multipolar world much more significant because that preference makes me, by definition, an enemy of those who are 'Exceptional' in the sense of prima et praecipua. Prima inter pares can, conceptually, understand multipolarity particularly when each stakeholder has some attribute in which he has a comparative, if not absolute advantage.

Prima et praecipua wants everything for himself, even as his words say otherwise - just as Obama's speech did a few weeks ago. Indeed, Obama flagged, signposted and made as clear as possible that the world could do what it wanted, as long as what it wants is what the U.S allows it to have. What Obama might understand, but Cheney and his ilk do not yet accept, is that the ability of the U.S to act in this manner is now constrained - constrained by the very actions and shortcomings imposed upon the U.S and the world over the past 45 years by Cheney, his cohort and peers. Cheney's generation have broken the United States.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: cufflinks on October 16, 2015, 11:45:14 PM
I find this blather and bloviation from the inheritors of the truly Brutal Bloody British Empire to be exceptionally mind numbing in its hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Steveboy on October 17, 2015, 12:47:08 AM
I find this blather and bloviation from the inheritors of the truly Brutal Bloody British Empire to be exceptionally mind numbing in its hypocrisy.

The British have become civilised after the Empire. Its just like the Royal family only a few decades ago they used to go on wild game hunts in Africa, now its not acceptable in the 21st Century. The same again they have become more civilised.

Its the same for torture , its not acceptable in the 21st Century for civilised countries  , unfortunately the US is going the opposite way to becoming "More civilised "  :fighting0025:



Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: cufflinks on October 17, 2015, 10:48:45 AM
I find this blather and bloviation from the inheritors of the truly Brutal Bloody British Empire to be exceptionally mind numbing in its hypocrisy.

The British have become civilised after the Empire. Its just like the Royal family only a few decades ago they used to go on wild game hunts in Africa, now its not acceptable in the 21st Century. The same again they have become more civilised.

Its the same for torture , its not acceptable in the 21st Century for civilised countries  , unfortunately the US is going the opposite way to becoming "More civilised "  :fighting0025:

You are so incredibly brainwashed - the British Colonial empire has been replaced by the British Commonwealth risk distribution and finance empire a.k.a The Birtish Commonwealth of Nations lead by Lloyds of London and the global financial empire controlled by Lord Rothschild and his family's global financial empire that has been financing opposite sides of wars for centuries now - why - the time to buy is when blood is running in the streets - the Rothschilds dwarf the wealth and power of the Rockefellers and trilateral commission who get their marching orders from the annual Rothschild mandated Bilderbergers confabs in service to their Crown.  The USA can not ship anything with out the City of London global risk management powers... no international business can be completed without the creation of the Rothschilds and their various global Export Import banks to transfer risks to the USA's tax slaves... 

The USA is merely a pawn and tool of the crown - the fact that cradle to grave security exists in the EU and UK and not the USA is punishment by the Crown for the 1700's rebellion and therefore turned all Americans into tax slaves in service to the Rothschilds and ultimately their Crowns global interests...  put down your hash pipes and cheap vodka bottles and wake the eff up.  The USA does nothing without the control and approval of the Crown and their global ministers Lord Rothschild and company (Bilderbergers global executors et.al.).

Here is some fresh meat you British Bulldogs will literally cream yourselves over:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX_mSGXRlsI

A proper wall to deal with your islamists invasion - BBC Documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFjRfLAEToI

Putin and the Kremlin refuse to submit to Lord Rothschild and the Crown's financial control and rule - just the opposite the Kremlin rules the Oligarchs in a tradition of Russia by and for the Russians - absolute heresy to the Crown's global multicultural social justice warriors plan to force the Germans and the rest of the EU to submit to dilution of their long and proud cultures (Except for Russia who dares resist) and therefore the Crown and their shadow Global Ministers Lord Rothschild and company enticed The Kremlin into Crimea and Ukraine adventurism and their cunning sanctions trap and now have the Russians arse deep in the crocodiles and vipers dens of the Mid East.

In the long and ignominious history of the Rothschilds funding both sides of Euro and Middle East wars ... Sunni centric Saudis, UAE and USA and Shite Centric Iran, Syria and Russia - then buying when blood is running in the streets - how much can they buy Syria and Iraq for now - a few billions in Ex/Im Bonds to secure trillions in Oil wealth?

Brutal Bloody British Empire Builders boldly blasting the worlds subjugants as much as ever before.  Rule Britannia!

:GOUK: :canada: :GOAUSSIE: :RUS: :GOUK:
Title: Re: Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America
Post by: Anteros on October 17, 2015, 11:12:51 AM
I am sure he does not believe the twaddle he is posting at the moment.

I do believe it. 

I believe that the world is a better place with a strong morally based superpower who is refereeing the world's conflicts.

I believe in a United States that is exceptional because of the opportunities it offers all its citizens that are not available any place else in the world.

I believe in a United States that stands up for the freedom of people worldwide to establish their own government.

I believe that because our country elected the worst President in our history, the foreign policy he has decided to pursue has made the world a more dangerous and unsettled place.


 :gousa:   :BEER:

(and BTW this is why Trump is going to win!)