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Information & Chat About the Former Soviet Union => Russian, Ukrainian and FSU Towns & Cities => Topic started by: AvHdB on March 12, 2013, 12:56:14 PM

Title: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 12, 2013, 12:56:14 PM
The two passages below made earlier on RUA brought this thread on.

To say that most of a country's homicide rate is due to fights caused by alcoholism and this has lasted for years says Ukraine is verging on being a failed state.

Some of us love Ukraine and for different reasons. But the reality is Ukraine is a sinking democracy - it has less to do with alcohol. The problem is corrupt public officials and the reality of the hang over of communism.

Brass I understand what you're saying, especially about high functioning alcoholics, I've seen them in the military. However what Halo is saying is that most of the homicide rate in Ukraine is due alcohol and fights. A homicide rate that is noticably higher than the rate in the US where we're killing people with guns. That's really hard to believe.

To say that most of a country's homicide rate is due to fights caused by alcoholism and this has lasted for years says Ukraine is verging on being a failed state.

Hard to believe or not, it is reality.

Ukraine is not on the verge of being a failed state.  It is a failed state.  It has only survived to date because of foreign aid, IMF loans (which will soon be in default), and Russian gas transit payments, which its greedy politicians ended up losing.

I tend to be an optimistic person but I understand what Halo is writing. While there are a multitude of ways to measure a so-called failed state and they can be historical or based on the current situation it is interesting (as well as sad). My feeling yes Ukraine is a failed state – but the same can not be said of the average citizen, and that is what makes Ukraine great. Many of us go to Ukraine because we already have a spouse or have family there. Or because we are part of the “merry band of bride seekers”

But what are members feelings?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 12, 2013, 01:11:46 PM
Yeah it is a failed state, you can buy anything there, more so than in other EE states... only reason I'd go to Ukraine would be to buy a drivers licence so I can transfer it to a Spanish licence but I have one already so it doesn't matter :chuckle:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
Well it certainly has its problems, what country doesn't? However, for the first six months of last year (sorry don't have newer data)  Ukraines GNP was +3% while inflation was minus 3.5%, that is better than many of the "successful" states.

Common indicators of a 'failed state' include a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory, non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality, refugees and involuntary movement of populations and sharp economic decline and while you could say Ukraine suffers partially from a few of these indicators, it has as yet, not registered an alert on the Failed States Index.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2013, 02:13:45 PM
The driving licence discussion has been moved here  (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=18825.0)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on March 12, 2013, 04:14:19 PM
If one looks at the countries that were part of the Soviet Union, and what happened afterwards, one sees a picture.

Estonia for example, in recent times is desperately trying to be part of Scandinavia and is still a tiger economy. Lithuania, Latvia and Poland have all embraced the EU. Things are getting better in all these places. Russia has made vast progress and Belarus still resides under dictatorship (or is it a controlled democracy?).

Lets sidetrack to our genre. The MOB industry. It is only still evident in Ukraine. When did someone last get scammed or locked in an apartment in Russia? Lithuania? Years ago (that we read). Yet MOB based scams and petty criminality still abound in Ukraine. Even small-time expat characters are moving in and marketing themselves to the needy now. The bubble will soon surely burst, but for now, Ukraine (and maybe a Stan or two) is the last chance saloon for the stereotypical MOB bloke with unreasonable expectations. Once upon a time, those guys had the whole FSU at their feet. No more.

Ukraine is stuck between a rock and hard place. EU membership is a decade or two away; if ever. Yet they choose to eschew Russia mostly. Well, what is left? The Russian leaning dictatorship of Belarus to the north, the Muslim state of Turkey to the south over the Black Sea, the EU to the west and Russia to the east. Having eschewed Russia (who will gladly welcome them back), they have nowhere to hang their hat. Ukraine is locked in by those who it either eschews, or is culturally incompatible with, or who wont accept it. Landlocked if you will.

Unless they throw in the towel and willingly join the Russian sphere of influence, it will be a decade or two before they can get their act together and be in the EU club. Until then, geography dictates that they will remain a pariah state; or maybe a failed state depending on your definition.

My money is on Russia gaining more political influence there over time, and them slowly slipping back into the fold that is the Federation. Money from Moscow is the only money on the table from what I can see. I don't see that as a bad thing.

None of that affects the experience of the traveller today though. The Baltics in the late nineties were pretty much like what Ukraine seems to be today [its a process - but Ukraine is on the slower road]. For sure, the government might not work properly, and there may be corruption everywhere. But the people are warm [once you get away from the tourist-centric scammers], and nice experiences are to be had, as we sometimes read.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 12, 2013, 08:48:15 PM
I think Manny paints a fairly accurate picture of the reality of Ukraine.

There is one point and that was clear with the Baltic states the politicians more or less followed the will and wishes of the people. In Ukraine they political elite are for the most part a self serving group. They see the pickings are richer on the Russian table and lean that way. I think the average citizen yearns for closer ties with Western and Central Europe.

Will the peoples will prevail? I guess we all will know the answer in 10 or so years.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 13, 2013, 12:06:05 AM
No.

When you have Al Qeda homesteading in Lypky and have to walk over the headless corpses at the Pinchuk Art Centre come talk to me.

Ukraine is not a pleasant country to visit and it does have its problems.  But is it likely to go the way of Checheniyastan?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on March 13, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
No.

When you have Al Qeda homesteading in Lypky and have to walk over the headless corpses at the Pinchuk Art Centre come talk to me.

Ukraine is not a pleasant country to visit and it does have its problems.  But is it likely to go the way of Checheniyastan?

Your experiences obviously vary quite differently to mine and others.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: mhr7 on March 13, 2013, 02:55:39 AM
No.

When you have Al Qeda homesteading in Lypky and have to walk over the headless corpses at the Pinchuk Art Centre come talk to me.

Ukraine is not a pleasant country to visit and it does have its problems.  But is it likely to go the way of Checheniyastan?

Your experiences obviously vary quite differently to mine and others.
Agreed. Going back for a 5th time next month.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on March 13, 2013, 03:15:42 AM
Failed state, not a bit of it. The definition Chris used simply does not apply.

Over the past few years, albeit with some setbacks from the Orange Revolution and its inevitable failure, much has been achieved.

Unlike Estonia and the other Baltic states Ukraine has not had to sell its assets to foreign businesses in order to survive, Ukraine went through great tribulations but was able to emerge with ownership of her own assets and with efficiency increasing to a point that made them economically viable on the world stage.

Are things perfect? No
Are the country's leaders perfect? No

But they are on a path. Probably 15-20 years behind Estonia but moving along well enough that few women these days see a better life with a fat old foreigner than in their own country. The tipping point that occurred in Estonia in 2000 and in Russia in 2007 has probably already been reached - any MOB firm that has to advertise for online chat hostesses has already lost that game; closure and retrenchment comes next.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on March 13, 2013, 04:45:45 AM
Failed state, not a bit of it. The definition Chris used simply does not apply.

Over the past few years, albeit with some setbacks from the Orange Revolution and its inevitable failure, much has been achieved.

Unlike Estonia and the other Baltic states Ukraine has not had to sell its assets to foreign businesses in order to survive, Ukraine went through great tribulations but was able to emerge with ownership of her own assets and with efficiency increasing to a point that made them economically viable on the world stage.

Are things perfect? No
Are the country's leaders perfect? No

But they are on a path. Probably 15-20 years behind Estonia but moving along well enough that few women these days see a better life with a fat old foreigner than in their own country. The tipping point that occurred in Estonia in 2000 and in Russia in 2007 has probably already been reached - any MOB firm that has to advertise for online chat hostesses has already lost that game; closure and retrenchment comes next.



My view too  tiphat
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: sharonhaber00 on March 13, 2013, 04:52:23 AM
Any one's experiences will be different, depending on what he is looking there. After all most of the blokes on here go there for its girls, duh  :duh:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Muzh_1 on March 13, 2013, 07:04:02 AM

Ukraine is stuck between a rock and hard place. EU membership is a decade or two away; if ever. Yet they choose to eschew Russia mostly. Well, what is left? The Russian leaning dictatorship of Belarus to the north, the Muslim state of Turkey to the south over the Black Sea, the EU to the west and Russia to the east. Having eschewed Russia (who will gladly welcome them back), they have nowhere to hang their hat. Ukraine is locked in by those who it either eschews, or is culturally incompatible with, or who wont accept it. Landlocked if you will.

Unless they throw in the towel and willingly join the Russian sphere of influence, it will be a decade or two before they can get their act together and be in the EU club. Until then, geography dictates that they will remain a pariah state; or maybe a failed state depending on your definition.

My money is on Russia gaining more political influence there over time, and them slowly slipping back into the fold that is the Federation. Money from Moscow is the only money on the table from what I can see. I don't see that as a bad thing.


That's a lot of wishful thinking.

First, this eschewing you talk about is just a left over from the Kuchma era. And Yanukonvikt being his stooge disciple is trying to emulate the same game but you cannot accuse him of being the brightest of the thugs.

Next, Belarus and Turkey are of no concern to the thieves and murderers oligarchs as of today, so the point with these two countries is moot.

That Russia will be happy to take them into their fold? Just like you would embrace a spoiled and bratty child and love him. There is no other way of explaining this.

Let's be frank here. They are not throwing any towel away nor they would ever be inclined to do so. That is inviting a civil war. The thieves and murderers oligarchs from both Russia and Ukraine don't want that. There is too much at stake here that the Ukrainian thugs would willingly throw everything away by joining the EU.

They see the pickings are richer on the Russian table and lean that way.

See above. Who ever told you that is trying to sell you a bridge.

I think the average citizen yearns for closer ties with Western and Central Europe.

Will the peoples will prevail? I guess we all will know the answer in 10 20 or so years.

I had to fix your projection. You'll have to wait for the second generation. The prevailing one has too much Soviet in them still.

Is it a failed state? In the eyes of many, yes.

In the eyes of their country men? An even split. Once the Soviet relics die, ask the question again.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: CC3 on March 13, 2013, 10:41:17 AM
No.

When you have Al Qeda homesteading in Lypky and have to walk over the headless corpses at the Pinchuk Art Centre come talk to me.

Ukraine is not a pleasant country to visit and it does have its problems.  But is it likely to go the way of Checheniyastan?

LT, your disillusionment (after only one visit in the dead of winter) is profound and obviously extremely subjective and not shared by those of us who have returned multiple times, spending far more time there, in all seasons, than you did. Maybe you should temper your negative critique with the caveat that your statements are only your personal opinions.

 I, personally, always look forward to returning to far eastern UA (from Donets'k to Luhans'k). I don't let the extreme russification and third world infrastructure get me down, because the people are some of the best on earth, especially once you are admitted to their circles of friendship ( and, in the case of my fiancee, of love). As the old Soviet mindset disappears due to aging and mortality, I foresee a diminution of klepto-oligarchic power and influence, and a growth in the awareness and power of the general populace, leading to Baltic nation-like development and improvement in overall living circumstances.

However, if that personal prediction fails to come about, my wife, daughter and I will hop on the big bird and head for 'the hills' (the Colorado Rockies).
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on March 13, 2013, 06:53:07 PM
No.

When you have Al Qeda homesteading in Lypky and have to walk over the headless corpses at the Pinchuk Art Centre come talk to me.

Ukraine is not a pleasant country to visit and it does have its problems.  But is it likely to go the way of Checheniyastan?

LT,
You are way out of bounds here. Beyond your nutty religious views, you are dead wrong about Ukraine. All of my trips there have been wonderful. Please do the FSUW a favor and stick to women in your church. We will all thank you.

Lee
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 14, 2013, 12:30:02 AM
Study history.   Ukraine has a history of foriegn dominance and intervention.  Poland' Russia, Turkey, Greece, Persia have all been pulling the puppet strings for centuries.  The failure of the orange revolution denotes the failure of the west to shape policy in any meaningful way.

It is generous to categorize the current regime as a client state from Moscow.  muzh s description is more accurate.  That said only Canada has been consistent and strong. 

Comparisons to the Baltics are not helpful.  Estonia is really a part of Finland and Lithinunia  a part of Poland.  They oppose Russian dominance .  ukraine is as scholars noted in the gray zone.

Could Ukraine be westernized?  The under 23 crowd is  very differentthan their elders.  But let's face it, the west does not shaoe policy over there like Putin does.  Its  reactive and incompetent.  Could Ukraine become a failed state?  Yes,  and it could happen quickly just like it did in Chechenya nad Georgia.

skepticism and vigiliance serve the wife hunter well gentlemen.

Posted from Frankfurt airport
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: CC3 on March 14, 2013, 04:12:54 AM
Study history.   
Comparisons to the Baltics are not helpful.  Estonia is really a part of Finland

Posted from Frankfurt airport
Hyvää Päivää,

My ex-wife is Finnish. All of her relatives, other than our children, reside in Finland. My children are dual Finnish/American citizens. Foregoing indicates my bonafides to make the statement that Estonia is NOT considered or desired to be, by Finns, a "part of Finland".

LT, your pseudo-authoritative declarations are both irritating and amusing at the same time.

"Posted from Frankfurt airport"? Are we supposed to be impressed? Are you traveling sans TR? Welcome out of the US 'bubble' into the real world!

Näkemiin
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 14, 2013, 04:51:28 AM
Study history.   Ukraine has a history of foriegn dominance and intervention.  Poland' Russia, Turkey, Greece, Persia have all been pulling the puppet strings for centuries.  The failure of the orange revolution denotes the failure of the west to shape policy in any meaningful way.

Estonia is really a part of Finland and Lithinunia a part of Poland.

Could Ukraine be westernized?

Posted from Frankfurt airport
Please learn to spell, I know you are not the sharpest tool in the box but it is not an excuse for poor spelling.

Turkey and Greece? you must be joking, Greece can't do anything without EU help. Last I checked Turkish influence wasn't really there in Ukraine, sure in the South there is some but as far influence that means something, very little. Persia no longer exists, it is Iran now, nice to see that the US are keeping up with the times.

Both incorrect statements, the Estonians I know don't think that and I only know one Finnish guy so I can't comment on the Finnish side but from an Estonian POV, it is not although they are trying to emulate to an extent, they don't wish to be part of Finland. Lithuania is not part of Poland, where are you getting this crap from? :chuckle:

Yes Ukraine can be westernised, it is just a long hard road with Russia blocking parts... for Ukraine to be a western state, they need the new generation or the one after that (I don't think the current generation will be much help) to make things better for Ukraine in general before thinking of reforms to make them more western.

Congratulations you're in Frankfurt... would you like a cookie for leaving the US? putz :fighting0025:
Title: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Ste on March 14, 2013, 05:50:05 AM
Isn't there a Frankfurt in US and A?

Ste

Posted from my iPhone 6 on iOS 7 beta at my desk where I work in Dublin, Eire.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on March 14, 2013, 06:58:42 AM
Isn't there a Frankfurt in US and A?

Ste

Posted from my iPhone 6 on iOS 7 beta at my desk where I work in Dublin, Eire.

Beg your pardon but there is no iPhone 6, the latest version is the iPhone 5.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on March 14, 2013, 07:39:13 AM
Isn't there a Frankfurt in US and A?

Ste

Posted from my iPhone 6 on iOS 7 beta at my desk where I work in Dublin, Eire.

There is also an Odessa in Upstate NY about 100 miles from my home. If I were to drop you into it you would think you were in Alabama, Mississippi or Louisiana.  ;D Nothing like the pearl of the Black Sea. But I am sure the citizens there would dislike LT also.  :smokin:

Lee
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: gazzase on March 14, 2013, 08:18:47 AM
Study history.   Ukraine has a history of foreign dominance and intervention.  Poland' Russia, Turkey, Greece, Persia have all been pulling the puppet strings for centuries.  The failure of the orange revolution denotes the failure of the west to shape policy in any meaningful way.

It is generous to categorize the current regime as a client state from Moscow.  muzh s description is more accurate.  That said only Canada has been consistent and strong. 

Comparisons to the Baltics are not helpful. Estonia is really a part of Finland and Lithinunia  a part of Poland.  They oppose Russian dominance .  ukraine is as scholars noted in the gray zone.

Could Ukraine be westernized?  The under 23 crowd is  very differentthan their elders.  But let's face it, the west does not shaoe policy over there like Putin does.  Its  reactive and incompetent.  Could Ukraine become a failed state?  Yes,  and it could happen quickly just like it did in Chechenya nad Georgia.

skepticism and vigiliance serve the wife hunter well gentlemen.

Posted from Frankfurt airport


 :'( Actually Estonia and Finland was part of Sweden until 1721 and 1809 when Sweden lost this territory to the Russians.  Finland become independent country in 1917 and Estonia 1918. Lithuania has been Russian since 1795 and become independent country in 1918 and have never been polish but they had an alliance with Poland in 14Th century. I hope I do not need to enlighten you what happened with these country's during and after WW2.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Danchik on March 14, 2013, 11:32:40 AM
Ukraine is not a failed state. Not by definition, nor in reality. But there's no denying that Ukraine is woefully mismanaged.

To understand the past Soviet system is to understand just how deeply embedded it is even today. I seriously doubt that any of us will see it change so dramatically in our life time. IMO, it will take more than a generation to move away from its core. Nevertheless, Ukraine, and to a much larger extent Russia, has already made strides to become more fiscally in tune with the industrialized world.

Ukraine is too indebted to Russia for Russia to allow it just to enter the EU. The EU doesn't want the headache that Ukraine would bring, at least now with its own situation, and that adds to the complexity. Russia, on the other hand, will not allow Ukraine to fail, won't happen. It also won't let Ukraine go without a fight. That is of course, if Russia doesn't take a turn for the worse economically.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Muzh_1 on March 14, 2013, 12:00:23 PM
Ukraine is not a failed state. Not by definition, nor in reality. But there's no denying that Ukraine is woefully mismanaged.

To understand the past Soviet system is to understand just how deeply embedded it is even today. I seriously doubt that any of us will see it change so dramatically in our life time. IMO, it will take more than a generation to move away from its core. Nevertheless, Ukraine, and to a much larger extent Russia, has already made strides to become more fiscally in tune with the industrialized world.

Ukraine is too indebted to Russia for Russia to allow it just to enter the EU. The EU doesn't want the headache that Ukraine would bring, at least now with its own situation, and that adds to the complexity.


I agree with everything except this.

Russia, on the other hand, will not allow Ukraine to fail, won't happen. It also won't let Ukraine go without a fight. That is of course, if Russia doesn't take a turn for the worse economically.

It is not that Russia will not let Ukraine fail. It is that Ukraine serves some purpose but the moment Ukraine become irrelevant, bye bye.

It's zero sum baby.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on March 14, 2013, 12:08:39 PM
Ukraine is not a failed state. Not by definition, nor in reality. But there's no denying that Ukraine is woefully mismanaged.

To understand the past Soviet system is to understand just how deeply embedded it is even today. I seriously doubt that any of us will see it change so dramatically in our life time. IMO, it will take more than a generation to move away from its core. Nevertheless, Ukraine, and to a much larger extent Russia, has already made strides to become more fiscally in tune with the industrialized world.

Ukraine is too indebted to Russia for Russia to allow it just to enter the EU. The EU doesn't want the headache that Ukraine would bring, at least now with its own situation, and that adds to the complexity.


I agree with everything except this.

Russia, on the other hand, will not allow Ukraine to fail, won't happen. It also won't let Ukraine go without a fight. That is of course, if Russia doesn't take a turn for the worse economically.

It is not that Russia will not let Ukraine fail. It is that Ukraine serves some purpose but the moment Ukraine become irrelevant, bye bye.

It's zero sum baby.

Ukraine will always be relevant to Russia, because Russia considers Ukraine to be a buffer zone between Russia and NATO.  Russia does not want western tanks on their doorstep.  Furthermore Russia covers Sevastopol as the port for their Black Sea fleet.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: CC3 on March 14, 2013, 04:56:18 PM

There is also an Odessa in Upstate NY about 100 miles from my home. If I were to drop you into it you would think you were in Alabama, Mississippi or Louisiana.  ;D Nothing like the pearl of the Black Sea. But I am sure the citizens there would dislike LT also.  :smokin:

Lee

Also an Odessa in west Texas...one of the most miserable places in the USA.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 15, 2013, 01:58:54 AM

There is also an Odessa in Upstate NY about 100 miles from my home. If I were to drop you into it you would think you were in Alabama, Mississippi or Louisiana.  ;D Nothing like the pearl of the Black Sea. But I am sure the citizens there would dislike LT also.  :smokin:

Lee

Also an Odessa in west Texas...one of the most miserable places in the USA.

Yes and with an international airport. More than one traveler not so long ago have found themselves at the wrong airport after a long journey.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: CC3 on March 15, 2013, 11:23:50 AM
Odessa, TX does not have its own commercial airport. It shares an airline-served airport with Midland, TX. As a Texas based airline pilot I frequently flew into and out of MAF in 70's and 80's. It was not an international airport then, although it did connect to international hubs of IAH, DFW, and DEN.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 15, 2013, 05:59:27 PM
The fact that Ukraine is such an unpleasant place is not the lone opinion of a disgruntled American, but a view verified  by an international body with exhaustive evidence of  its findings.  One only need read the World Economic Forum on Travel competitiveness to see Ukraine  as  one of the most unfriendly places to visit.  (perhaps they stayed at the Hotel dnipro  too Chris.)

Being a pleasant place to visit is part and parcel of being a successful and stable state.  If Ukraine had the tourist reputation that Iceland or New Zealand, do you think we would discuss it as  a failed state?

If  I were Rinat Akmetov, I would support Eu membership.  I could statge my traficking activities at home instead of Amsterdam and still reach the same markets.

Russia wants Ukraine back and it might get it back, not because Ukraine does not have wonderful, brave  and talented people.  It is because the West has failed to support the majority of Ukrainians who wish for a better future . 

Putin has not made such mistakes.  he supports his people.  He is committed to their survival in the  face of international condemnation.  where America cannot resolve differences among  revolutionaries in a revolution it started, and no I am not talking about the Arab Spring. 

Ukraine's neighbors enjoy a higher per capita income  thn they do with the exception of those states alliedbto Putin.  You do Ukraine no favors by being this naive ad foolish ahout the chanlleges both history and geography  pose
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 15, 2013, 06:10:57 PM
I found Ukraine to be a very pleasant place to visit. As a bonus, ceftriaxone, azithromycin and doxycycline are readily available over the counter. These drugs are especially useful if one isn't too careful about with whom he associates.


... and Estonia is not and has never been part of Finland.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on March 15, 2013, 09:01:09 PM
Well it certainly has its problems, what country doesn't? However, for the first six months of last year (sorry don't have newer data)  Ukraines GNP was +3% while inflation was minus 3.5%, that is better than many of the "successful" states.

Common indicators of a 'failed state' include a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory, non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality, refugees and involuntary movement of populations and sharp economic decline and while you could say Ukraine suffers partially from a few of these indicators, it has as yet, not registered an alert on the Failed States Index.

And usually a failed state has widespread warfare.

I gotta wonder what part of Ukraine they would consider 'failed?'  Can our non-resident experts name the cities and raions where they have seen Ukraine as a failed nation state?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 16, 2013, 06:40:16 AM
Ukraine is not a failed state. Not by definition, nor in reality. But there's no denying that Ukraine is woefully mismanaged.

To understand the past Soviet system is to understand just how deeply embedded it is even today. I seriously doubt that any of us will see it change so dramatically in our life time. IMO, it will take more than a generation to move away from its core. Nevertheless, Ukraine, and to a much larger extent Russia, has already made strides to become more fiscally in tune with the industrialized world.

Ukraine is too indebted to Russia for Russia to allow it just to enter the EU. The EU doesn't want the headache that Ukraine would bring, at least now with its own situation, and that adds to the complexity. Russia, on the other hand, will not allow Ukraine to fail, won't happen. It also won't let Ukraine go without a fight. That is of course, if Russia doesn't take a turn for the worse economically.

Danchick - as you are on the ground in Moscow the epicenter of Russian wealth and power - curious the tremors in society you sense that could allow for Russia to take a turn for the worse economically? Interesting that Roman Abramovich's 500 ft Yacht is docked in NYC while his wife gives birth to their child in NYC - press and media rife with Billionaire anchor baby speculations - having a son who is born in the USA and thereby automatically a US Citizen gives them a long term anchor in NYC should they ever need to bail if Putin or his subsequent Czars of RU Inc decide to repatriate Oiligarch's "ill gotten gains" - seems a lot like what the Obama, California and French Administrations are trying to do - recapture the wealth of those who create it - could lead to a Brain and Capital drain out of RU no? 

Off course RU has a great influence over UA's economy by setting UA's energy prices - off course that used to be offset by UA being RU's bread basket and with the Moscow regions droughts  UA should be able to counterbalance energy costs with increased ag production - lead by the Europeans buying up all the UA farmlands over the next decade or so.

Seems RU's worst case 13% income taxes (Compared to USA 50%+/- Fed and State or Frances 65%) is a major reason for so much of RU wealth creation and accumulation over the past two decades.  Just saying.

Your on the ground perspective is highly appreciated.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 16, 2013, 07:11:30 AM
Seems RU's worst case 13% income taxes, compared to Frances 65%
I suggest you do your research, it is 45% with an additional 3% for incomes between 200.000-500.000€ and 4% for incomes over 1.000.000€, the 75% tax rate (not 65% as you seem to think) was ruled unconstitutional and thus not allowed to be implemented.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 16, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
Seems RU's worst case 13% income taxes, compared to Frances 65%
I suggest you do your research, it is 45% with an additional 3% for incomes between 200.000-500.000€ and 4% for incomes over 1.000.000€, the 75% tax rate (not 65% as you seem to think) was ruled unconstitutional and thus not allowed to be implemented.


Hi kettle.


Interesting conversation I had with my future in laws.  If I was Canadian or Australian how different it would have been.  I told them that the whole world knows the Ukrainian people earn for freedom but the corrupt and evil people of the West have no guts and no class and will continue to send sexpats. 

Ukraine is a cleft country with strong Russified roots made more strong by Putin an able leader who stands by his allies and has a vision.  Why is it that Ukraine has not had 1 leader in 20 years from Western Ukraine!  Why is it that my pseudo intellectual adversaries know Russia's interests in the region but who can tell me America's interests?  UK's or EU interests?

Crickets?

I am glad that you are angry at me.  The situation is indeed pathetic.  Unless you are Canadian, you bear some responsiblity over Ukraine's demise. 

I told my future in laws that the road to Bila Tserkvas was worse than the Mosul Bagdad road in 2004.  But that we Westerners are blind to the responsibilities of freedom
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 16, 2013, 03:16:25 PM
The situation is indeed pathetic.  Unless you are Canadian, you bear some responsiblity over Ukraine's demise.

I have followed this thread but will refrain from commenting for now. Lord Tiberius, the above stands out. Excuse me often I can confuse the meaning of something everything, but the above? Please enlighten us.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 16, 2013, 03:20:15 PM
el_g,

Rua says I cannot PM u back.  My email is [edit: nope - we don't do that].  God Bless You sir.  Keep standing up for truth!!!!!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on March 16, 2013, 03:24:49 PM
Seems RU's worst case 13% income taxes, compared to Frances 65%
I suggest you do your research, it is 45% with an additional 3% for incomes between 200.000-500.000€ and 4% for incomes over 1.000.000€, the 75% tax rate (not 65% as you seem to think) was ruled unconstitutional and thus not allowed to be implemented.

Rich, for Russia you are wrong.

It's 13%, seems you've forgotten just like you forget the nightspots.

No idea what it is in Ukraine, but most are paid part cash and part via the books.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 16, 2013, 03:25:21 PM
el_g,

Rua says I cannot PM u back.  My email is [edit: nope - we don't do that].  God Bless You sir.  Keep standing up for truth!!!!!

You two should get together with Sterlin and start a forum of your own.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 16, 2013, 03:46:57 PM
Hi kettle.

Interesting conversation I had with my future in laws.  If I was Canadian or Australian how different it would have been.  I told them that the whole world knows the Ukrainian people earn for freedom but the corrupt and evil people of the West have no guts and no class and will continue to send sexpats. 

Ukraine is a cleft country with strong Russified roots made more strong by Putin an able leader who stands by his allies and has a vision.  Why is it that Ukraine has not had 1 leader in 20 years from Western Ukraine!  Why is it that my pseudo intellectual adversaries know Russia's interests in the region but who can tell me America's interests?  UK's or EU interests?

Crickets?

I am glad that you are angry at me.  The situation is indeed pathetic.  Unless you are Canadian, you bear some responsiblity over Ukraine's demise. 

I told my future in laws that the road to Bila Tserkvas was worse than the Mosul Bagdad road in 2004.  But that we Westerners are blind to the responsibilities of freedom
WTF are you quoting me for LT? can you not differentiate between different posts? :D
Rich, for Russia you are wrong.

It's 13%, seems you've forgotten just like you forget the nightspots.

No idea what it is in Ukraine, but most are paid part cash and part via the books.
I wasn't talking about Russia or Ukraine... I was pointing out his inaccurate quote of the French tax rate, no where did I state I was talking about Russia, I thought it was clear from my pointing out of his mistake about the 65% rate being 75% that I was talking about France.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 16, 2013, 03:57:29 PM
WTF are you quoting me for LT? can you not differentiate between different posts? :D

What's the difference whom he quotes? It's all gibberish, anyway.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on March 16, 2013, 04:39:06 PM
Well it certainly has its problems, what country doesn't? However, for the first six months of last year (sorry don't have newer data)  Ukraines GNP was +3% while inflation was minus 3.5%, that is better than many of the "successful" states.

Common indicators of a 'failed state' include a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory, non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality, refugees and involuntary movement of populations and sharp economic decline and while you could say Ukraine suffers partially from a few of these indicators, it has as yet, not registered an alert on the Failed States Index.

And usually a failed state has widespread warfare.

I gotta wonder what part of Ukraine they would consider 'failed?'  Can our non-resident experts name the cities and raions where they have seen Ukraine as a failed nation state?

I wonder why you quoted chris?

What's your expertise in this area?

Isn't mafia a form of failed state? Or is that success?

Not that our country isn't without a form of mafia, the US is one big failed nation (mafia type management), just in a much more modern way.

Life's so complicated.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 16, 2013, 05:05:25 PM
Ashby is right.

But Oh Canada your star shines so bright!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: mhr7 on March 17, 2013, 01:54:29 AM
Seems RU's worst case 13% income taxes, compared to Frances 65%
I suggest you do your research, it is 45% with an additional 3% for incomes between 200.000-500.000€ and 4% for incomes over 1.000.000€, the 75% tax rate (not 65% as you seem to think) was ruled unconstitutional and thus not allowed to be implemented.


Hi kettle.


Interesting conversation I had with my future in laws.  If I was Canadian or Australian how different it would have been.  I told them that the whole world knows the Ukrainian people earn for freedom but the corrupt and evil people of the West have no guts and no class and will continue to send sexpats. 

Ukraine is a cleft country with strong Russified roots made more strong by Putin an able leader who stands by his allies and has a vision.  Why is it that Ukraine has not had 1 leader in 20 years from Western Ukraine!  Why is it that my pseudo intellectual adversaries know Russia's interests in the region but who can tell me America's interests?  UK's or EU interests?

Crickets?

I am glad that you are angry at me.  The situation is indeed pathetic.  Unless you are Canadian, you bear some responsiblity over Ukraine's demise. 

I told my future in laws that the road to Bila Tserkvas was worse than the Mosul Bagdad road in 2004.  But that we Westerners are blind to the responsibilities of freedom
The future in-laws must be so thrilled to welcome you to the family. Keep telling them what a shit country they live in, I'm sure they'll want to introduce you to everyone.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Danchik on March 17, 2013, 02:48:06 AM
Cufflinks,

I'm not suggesting that Russia is in any financial distress, certainly not at the moment nor will it be in the next few years. However, it is a petrostate. I can't predict the future, but it is my opinion that oil will continue to sell at all time highs well into the future despite the growth of shale production.

This doesn't mean Russia can just sit back and relax, and let the petro dollars offset their lack of reforms and diversification.

I've been on the fence about Putin and his return to power. To be honest, I was hoping he would seize the moment and understand his place in history and move this country to the next level by improving the business interests for foreign companies, as well as improving the quality and competitiveness of its domestic ventures. Also by understanding the unlimited potential of its people/country and reinvesting those petro profits back into the country, instead of continuing to line the pockets of his cronies and perpetuate not only capital flight, but a "brain drain".

The jury is still out at the moment, and it's my belief that we won't really know the extent of his policies until at least 2015-16. Entering the WTO should help the competitive balance and improve pricing and quality, not to mention continue Russia's rather robust GDP growth moving forward. Foreign companies had anticipated this and have been lining up since 2011 at their perspective embassies looking to obtain permits that allow them to enter this market. Outside of petro dollars, consumerism is the other saving grace for Russia. Certainly, they go hand in hand.

For Russia to move in the right direction it's no secret that it needs to invest more in infrastructure, education, agriculture, technology/science/medicine and legitimate small business ventures, and not waste so much on its military. This would be a good start. It also needs to spread its wealth to the regions and not concentrate itself and its power base mainly in Moscow. There have been strides made, and Russia no longer shuns outside expertise to help improve the areas mentioned above

But this is Russia. The "old" school Soviet state still calls the shots internally and Putin is, or has to be loyal to that to coexist. I firmly believe that Putin is not an autocratic, but a semi-autocratic leader. It takes an enormous amount of money to get things done here as opposed to other countries because of its brand of corruption and I don't see that changing in the near future. Most, at least the ones in power, still operate on the "let me take what I can get now" attitude, instead of realizing a more profitable long term future in which they could still line their pockets, but also help raise many people out of poverty. 

I stay optimistic about things here and Putin. I think the one good thing from the protests last year, was Putin realizing that he couldn't continue his business as usual BS, and that he had to do something beneficial for the masses. I think he has made some concessions in that direction, but I feel it won't be until the "old" school guard dies out that things will really start to move in the right direction.

I see a change in mentality with the young generation. There will always be that "old" mentality as long as these old schools keep having children. Overall though, people here want to do things the right way, and they don't ask for much. That's the kicker. They want as many as possible to benefit from the spoils. They want to do business as business should be done, and they want to have the same freedoms and choices as those who already have this. It certainly is possible, time will tell.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Danchik on March 17, 2013, 03:06:52 AM
Interesting that Roman Abramovich's 500 ft Yacht is docked in NYC while his wife gives birth to their child in NYC - press and media rife with Billionaire anchor baby speculations - having a son who is born in the USA and thereby automatically a US Citizen gives them a long term anchor in NYC should they ever need to bail if Putin or his subsequent Czars of RU Inc decide to repatriate Oiligarch's "ill gotten gains"
Most Russians who have the means to have their wife give birth in America will do so. It has more to do with the quality of medical care than solidifying an escape from anything.

I'm sure Abramovich has already moved his wealth to keep it safe, and is not worried about having any other citizenship. He also has a rather good relationship with Putin.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 17, 2013, 03:15:55 AM
Most Russians who have the means to have their wife give birth in America will do so. It has more to do with the quality of medical care than solidifying an escape from anything.
I am sorry what? quality of healthcare? you are joking surely?

Also having a child born in America is more of a burden than a positive, America is hardly free, the child should be born in a European state, great free healthcare, an education system that educates and quality of living is pretty high also we are quite free although you still can't make terrorism related jokes in an airport, a ship is fine but not an airport :(
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: missAmeno on March 17, 2013, 04:13:48 AM
I told my future in laws that the road to Bila Tserkvas was worse than the Mosul Bagdad road in 2004.

Are you talking about highway M05 (highway that connects Kiev with Odessa and goes through Bila Tserkva) or some road in particular on entrance to Bila Tserkva?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Danchik on March 17, 2013, 04:15:36 AM
Most Russians who have the means to have their wife give birth in America will do so. It has more to do with the quality of medical care than solidifying an escape from anything.
I am sorry what? quality of healthcare? you are joking surely?

Also having a child born in America is more of a burden than a positive, America is hardly free, the child should be born in a European state, great free healthcare, an education system that educates and quality of living is pretty high also we are quite free although you still can't make terrorism related jokes in an airport, a ship is fine but not an airport :(
Your anti American BS is really beyond boring. The fact is the health care in America is better than Russia (the reason I said most Russians BTW) and better than most, if not all places, when you have the money. The education system at the university level is second to none.

I happen to know some Russians of means who have done just that, have their baby in America.
 
If I had Abramovich's money, I'd prefer to live in America than say anywhere in the UK. When you have that kind of money, all the other crap you talk about makes absolutely no difference, sorry.

Really, your American bashing is for the most part ill-informed. And really all you Brits who can't seem to let it go would be better served spending your energy on more important things. All it shows to me when you do bash, is your ignorance and confidence level, or the lack of one. Your country is hardly setting the standards of living for the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 17, 2013, 04:50:41 AM
Your anti American BS is really beyond boring. The fact is the health care in America is better than Russia (the reason I said most Russians BTW) and better than most, if not all places, when you have the money. The education system at the university level is second to none.

I happen to know some Russians of means who have done just that, have their baby in America.
 
If I had Abramovich's money, I'd prefer to live in America than say anywhere in the UK. When you have that kind of money, all the other crap you talk about makes absolutely no difference, sorry.

Really, your American bashing is for the most part ill-informed. And really all you Brits who can't seem to let it go would be better served spending your energy on more important things. All it shows to me when you do bash, is your ignorance and confidence level, or the lack of one. Your country is hardly setting the standards of living for the rest of the world.
Wooo!! Better than Russia, worse than Switzerland, Germany, Scandinavia and the UK. Education system at university level is better? highly debatable and you have just conceded that primary to college/6th form level is crap in the US.

Congrats to them.

If I had his money I wouldn't go to the US, I wouldn't stay in the UK either but I would stay within the EU.

My American bashing is only American bashing as you perceive it to be such, it isn't ill-informed if it is you that takes it to be bashing and not my intention for it to be bashing. Our country does just fine thank you and our living standards are better than most countries not that it makes a difference to me. Ignorance is brilliant and my confidence and arrogance is through the roof :king:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 17, 2013, 08:49:44 AM
I told my future in laws that the road to Bila Tserkvas was worse than the Mosul Bagdad road in 2004.

Are you talking about highway M05 (highway that connects Kiev with Odessa and goes through Bila Tserkva) or some road in particular on entrance to Bila Tserkva?

He may have been alluding to the Jews being driven out of the town during the 40s. Of course, that makes no sense because it would have been "the road FROM Bila Tserka." Not making any sense is a familiar motif, however.

The best possible case is that the in-laws didn't understand a word of English and attributed the weirdness to an artifact of translation.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 17, 2013, 08:53:33 AM
My American bashing is only American bashing as you perceive it to be such, it isn't ill-informed if it is you that takes it to be bashing and not my intention for it to be bashing.

Coincidentally, my metrosexual bashing is only metrosexual bashing as you perceive it to be such, it isn't ill-informed if it is you that takes it to be bashing and not my intention for it to be bashing.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 17, 2013, 09:08:31 AM
Coincidentally, my metrosexual bashing is only metrosexual bashing as you perceive it to be such, it isn't ill-informed if it is you that takes it to be bashing and not my intention for it to be bashing.
Yes sure and unlike you and many of your fellow countrymen, I can actually take the criticisms you level against me, you guys cannot... at the end of the day, you are a bunch of pansies, now that was an insult :)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 17, 2013, 09:16:08 AM
Yep, we're a sensitive lot who live for the praise of pasty, gender-confused Austin Powers wannabes.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: CC3 on March 17, 2013, 09:33:51 AM
Yep, we're a sensitive lot who live for the praise of pasty, gender-confused Austin Powers wannabes.

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 03:52:53 PM
Hi kettle.

Interesting conversation I had with my future in laws.  If I was Canadian or Australian how different it would have been.  I told them that the whole world knows the Ukrainian people earn for freedom but the corrupt and evil people of the West have no guts and no class and will continue to send sexpats. 

Ukraine is a cleft country with strong Russified roots made more strong by Putin an able leader who stands by his allies and has a vision.  Why is it that Ukraine has not had 1 leader in 20 years from Western Ukraine!  Why is it that my pseudo intellectual adversaries know Russia's interests in the region but who can tell me America's interests?  UK's or EU interests?

Crickets?

I am glad that you are angry at me.  The situation is indeed pathetic.  Unless you are Canadian, you bear some responsiblity over Ukraine's demise. 

I told my future in laws that the road to Bila Tserkvas was worse than the Mosul Bagdad road in 2004.  But that we Westerners are blind to the responsibilities of freedom
WTF are you quoting me for LT? can you not differentiate between different posts? :D
Rich, for Russia you are wrong.

It's 13%, seems you've forgotten just like you forget the nightspots.

No idea what it is in Ukraine, but most are paid part cash and part via the books.
I wasn't talking about Russia or Ukraine... I was pointing out his inaccurate quote of the French tax rate, no where did I state I was talking about Russia, I thought it was clear from my pointing out of his mistake about the 65% rate being 75% that I was talking about France.

Keeeriste sakes DickyDick - I made a bloody typo and meant to type 75% So shoot me already like you would love to do all yanks!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 04:00:26 PM
Most Russians who have the means to have their wife give birth in America will do so. It has more to do with the quality of medical care than solidifying an escape from anything.
I am sorry what? quality of healthcare? you are joking surely?

Also having a child born in America is more of a burden than a positive, America is hardly free, the child should be born in a European state, great free healthcare, an education system that educates and quality of living is pretty high also we are quite free although you still can't make terrorism related jokes in an airport, a ship is fine but not an airport :(

@R2 - You are such a knee jerk anti American - clueless about the quality of US Healthcare - and many innovations and patents coming out of our New England region alone... waste of effort to try and engage you in civil discourse - thank God the UK is a collective of Island Nations - sort of a deep natural moat to keep you xenophobic lost empire imperialists from escaping.

Ok Ok the UK is the greatest collection of Human DNA ever assembled and through force of will and empire has turned the English language into the most influential global language of technology commerce and industry on the planet and the USA is a mere small insignificant cog in that global economic empire. 

Satisfied your superior British imperial sensitivities yet now have we?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
Cufflinks,

I'm not suggesting that Russia is in any financial distress, certainly not at the moment nor will it be in the next few years. However, it is a petrostate. I can't predict the future, but it is my opinion that oil will continue to sell at all time highs well into the future despite the growth of shale production.

This doesn't mean Russia can just sit back and relax, and let the petro dollars offset their lack of reforms and diversification.

I've been on the fence about Putin and his return to power. To be honest, I was hoping he would seize the moment and understand his place in history and move this country to the next level by improving the business interests for foreign companies, as well as improving the quality and competitiveness of its domestic ventures. Also by understanding the unlimited potential of its people/country and reinvesting those petro profits back into the country, instead of continuing to line the pockets of his cronies and perpetuate not only capital flight, but a "brain drain".

The jury is still out at the moment, and it's my belief that we won't really know the extent of his policies until at least 2015-16. Entering the WTO should help the competitive balance and improve pricing and quality, not to mention continue Russia's rather robust GDP growth moving forward. Foreign companies had anticipated this and have been lining up since 2011 at their perspective embassies looking to obtain permits that allow them to enter this market. Outside of petro dollars, consumerism is the other saving grace for Russia. Certainly, they go hand in hand.

For Russia to move in the right direction it's no secret that it needs to invest more in infrastructure, education, agriculture, technology/science/medicine and legitimate small business ventures, and not waste so much on its military. This would be a good start. It also needs to spread its wealth to the regions and not concentrate itself and its power base mainly in Moscow. There have been strides made, and Russia no longer shuns outside expertise to help improve the areas mentioned above

But this is Russia. The "old" school Soviet state still calls the shots internally and Putin is, or has to be loyal to that to coexist. I firmly believe that Putin is not an autocratic, but a semi-autocratic leader. It takes an enormous amount of money to get things done here as opposed to other countries because of its brand of corruption and I don't see that changing in the near future. Most, at least the ones in power, still operate on the "let me take what I can get now" attitude, instead of realizing a more profitable long term future in which they could still line their pockets, but also help raise many people out of poverty. 

I stay optimistic about things here and Putin. I think the one good thing from the protests last year, was Putin realizing that he couldn't continue his business as usual BS, and that he had to do something beneficial for the masses. I think he has made some concessions in that direction, but I feel it won't be until the "old" school guard dies out that things will really start to move in the right direction.

I see a change in mentality with the young generation. There will always be that "old" mentality as long as these old schools keep having children. Overall though, people here want to do things the right way, and they don't ask for much. That's the kicker. They want as many as possible to benefit from the spoils. They want to do business as business should be done, and they want to have the same freedoms and choices as those who already have this. It certainly is possible, time will tell.

Danchik - great posts and insights - what are the "permits" to enter the market may I ask?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 17, 2013, 04:09:36 PM
Keeeriste sakes DickyDick - I made a bloody typo and meant to type 75% So shoot me already like you would love to do all yanks!
And yet you are still wrong.
You are such a knee jerk anti American - clueless about the quality of US Healthcare - and many innovations and patents coming out of our New England region alone... waste of effort to try and engage you in civil discourse - thank God the UK is a collective of Island Nations - sort of a deep natural moat to keep you xenophobic lost empire imperialists from escaping.

Ok Ok the UK is the greatest collection of Human DNA ever assembled and through force of will and empire has turned the English language into the most influential global language of technology commerce and industry on the planet and the USA is a mere small insignificant cog in that global economic empire. 

Satisfied your superior British imperial sensitivities now have we?
Yay I am a knee jerk anti-American wooo :chuckle:

The UK does not have the best DNA, no one claimed that, hell I'd never say that. I honestly don't care about the rest of your post.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 04:11:44 PM
Keeeriste sakes DickyDick - I made a bloody typo and meant to type 75% So shoot me already like you would love to do all yanks!
And yet you are still wrong.
You are such a knee jerk anti American - clueless about the quality of US Healthcare - and many innovations and patents coming out of our New England region alone... waste of effort to try and engage you in civil discourse - thank God the UK is a collective of Island Nations - sort of a deep natural moat to keep you xenophobic lost empire imperialists from escaping.

Ok Ok the UK is the greatest collection of Human DNA ever assembled and through force of will and empire has turned the English language into the most influential global language of technology commerce and industry on the planet and the USA is a mere small insignificant cog in that global economic empire. 

Satisfied your superior British imperial sensitivities now have we?
Yay I am a knee jerk anti-American wooo :chuckle:

The UK does not have the best DNA, no one claimed that, hell I'd never say that. I honestly don't care about the rest of your post.

Ave nother Pint Govna - might improve yer mood...
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 04:23:23 PM
Interesting article - in keeping with the thread is UA a failed state or is the EU a FAILED UNION?

ANALYST: The Cyprus Deal Could Be The 'Trigger' We Were Waiting For In Europe

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/analyst-cyprus-deal-could-trigger-144118333.html

Who runs this Cyprus Banking system the Mafiya with its customary 10% vig?

I could only imagine if they opened the banks doors one morning here and announced that everyone has just been assessed a 10% depositors tax for the privilege of doing business by bank.

Cyprus having a lot of RU expats you have to wonder if a few of these banksters and gov rats are not looking over their shoulders because of this:

On Thursday, Société Générale analysts made a prescient call on Europe.
" It is far too early to dismiss euro area crisis as a key [market] driver," wrote SocGen's Vincent Chaigneau. "We fear another shockwave in the spring."

As it turns out, they may not have had to wait very long. News this weekend that the ECB, EU, and IMF bailout of the Cypriot banking system will include an instant 10 percent "tax" on bank deposits before banks re-open following Monday's holiday has already triggered runs on ATMs there.

Now, the banks have a problem on their hands. "The Cypriot cabinet has declared Tuesday a bank holiday, for fear of capital flight, and this may even be stretched to Wednesday, as depositors are certain to withdraw huge sums from the Cypriot banks after the haircut imposed," reports Greek newspaper Kathimerini .

Many market observers are expressing concerns that the decision could have a ripple effect throughout Europe come Monday when markets open. After all, if European leaders have decided to violate the unspoken rule of bank bailouts – that deposits are sacrosanct – what's to say it can't happen in a bigger eurozone country, like Spain?

And for the likes of R2 this was a SocGen Analyst in the midst of the EU mess with a view from France - not some Yank 4,000 miles away. 

Looks like anyplace without the Euro is the place to keep money now in Europe, Norway, Switzerland, UK even....  No wonder Brits Scots Corgies and NIers want out of the EU currency union.  Bloody brilliant the UK stayed with a Monetarily Sovereign GBP rather than jump from the pan into the fire of this mess.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: CC3 on March 17, 2013, 04:34:30 PM

Yay I am a knee jerk anti-American wooo :chuckle:


Thank you for the revelation. I am so happy we (and the French) beat the crap out of the British Army 230 years ago.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 04:46:06 PM
EU is Amazing - can't make this stuff up!

http://www.businessinsider.com/cyprus-bailout-russian-angle-2013-3

Europe Just Pissed Off A Whole Bunch Of Russian Mobsters And Oligarchs With Its Stunning Bailout Of Cyprus

The pseudonymous @pawelmorski has more in a brilliant post titled Cyprus: A Brutal Lesson in RealPolitik, which concludes that ultimately it's not that bad for Russians. It's basically a one-off 10 percent tax on the money-laundering business, and that actually there's also a smaller tax on account holders with less than 100K EUR, which means it's not just rich Russians taking the burden.

And the Russians? The reason small depositors have been hit is that the losses inflicted would be much bigger if a) only large deposits b) only non-EU deposits were haircut. The data on Cyprus deposits is here (MUMs = Monetary Union Members). I would guess the thinking is that 10 percent is seen as a cost of doing business when it comes to money laundering, but 30 percent would probably finish Cypriot banking for good. If the infliction of losses on small depositors has a purpose, it’s probably to reassure the Russians that they are not being discriminated against. Yes, I may have thrown up a little in my mouth typing that. *

So: senior bondholders and Russians helped at the cost of smaller locals. There’s more logic here than there appears at first glance — the primary aim of this programme is to hold the European banking sector together whilst having a vaguely realistic programme, not placing another huge bill on the core/Germany not ending the viability of Cyprus as an offshore banking sector. My own judgement is that inflicting costs on depositors in principle is an extremely important one, but that not sparing the small depositor is worse than a cruel piece of realpolitik — it is in fact a mistake.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Paul on March 17, 2013, 04:55:24 PM

Yay I am a knee jerk anti-American wooo :chuckle:


Thank you for the revelation. I am so happy we (and the French) beat the crap out of the British Army 230 years ago.

RichyRich's family was probably still in India at the time.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 17, 2013, 04:59:14 PM
RichyRich's family was probably still in India at the time.

I wonder if there's any Indians in the woodpile.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on March 17, 2013, 05:25:51 PM
Brilliant:

http://mythfighter.com/2013/03/13/germany-eat-our-neighbors-then-kill-our-citizens-wwii-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-46988

Translation: “The spending increase came from the money we took out of our neighbors’ treasuries. But don’t tell them that. They are too stupid to figure it out for themselves.”

Rösler’s crowing aside, the Germany is building on the flesh and blood of its neighbors and its citizens. In a brilliant campaign, reminiscent of the American .1% income group’s campaign to impoverish the U.S. middle- and lower classes, Germany has convinced the world its success is based on “budget consolidation” and “solid finances.”

A growing Gross Domestic Product requires a growing supply of money. In the case of Monetarily Sovereign nations, like the U.S., Canada, China, Australia et al, that money can be created ad hoc by their sovereign governments.

But for monetarily non-sovereign nations, which have no sovereign currency and so the total supply cannot be increased, each nation must try to steal euros from the others, in a nationalistic riot of mutual cannibalism.

When the other euro nations finally surrender to the eventuality that they either return to Monetary Sovereignty and re-adopt their own currency, or merge into a financial version of a United States of Europe, Germany will run out of blood donors.

At that point, German citizens will begin to suffer so much they will seek out a strong, ruthless leader, who will identify and persecute scapegoats, then renounce the euro, so as to finance a war.

During the chaos, the German uber-reich will feed off the dying German populace, as salaries are diverted to taxes and the focus turns to saving the government. Soon there will be but two classes: The very wealthy and the very poor. The gap will be complete.

By the way, eurozone, how’s that austerity thing working out for you?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 18, 2013, 12:42:57 AM
By the way, eurozone, how’s that austerity thing working out for you?

The majority of politician's and economists think everything is improving.

The general public feel the ship has two captains and no rudder.

In Germany the sentiment against the Euro is growing. A political party now has formed with support from a diverse group of (liberal and conservative) politician's that seems to resonate well with the average Hans and Gretel.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 18, 2013, 02:57:36 AM
My critique of Ukrainian polity reflects not a disgust of Ukraine, its neighbors or even its current leadership, but of the West and its failure to support a true friend of freedom.  There is a case to say that the US is slouching toward a failed state and the EU is right behind it or maybe in front of it.  Took some pictures of St Andrew's Ascent.  Ukraine has something that the US does not have that much of and that the UK and Europe have but do not properly honor, something that the Soviet Union could not kill and it is in the stones that surround these wonderful people.  You see it in the eyes of the old and the young, in the countryside and when a pedestrian bows slightly at a weilding automobile.  The Bible says that when the leaders are good the people thrive, but when the leaders are bad, the people groan.  The people groan but eventually they will have good leaders.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 18, 2013, 03:05:15 AM
My critique of Ukrainian polity reflects not a disgust of Ukraine, its neighbors or even its current leadership, but of the West and its failure to support a true friend of freedom.  There is a case to say that the US is slouching toward a failed state and the EU is right behind it or maybe in front of it.  Took some pictures of St Andrew's Ascent.  Ukraine has something that the US does not have that much of and that the UK and Europe have but do not properly honor, something that the Soviet Union could not kill and it is in the stones that surround these wonderful people.  You see it in the eyes of the old and the young, in the countryside and when a pedestrian bows slightly at a weilding automobile.  The Bible says that when the leaders are good the people thrive, but when the leaders are bad, the people groan.  The people groan but eventually they will have good leaders.
What the  :censored:  are you on about? seriously, what the hell is "the US does not have, the UK and EU do not honour and the Soviet Union could not kill"... you don't even go on to say what it is Ukraine has that the others don't, you have a habit of doing this and it is bloody annoying.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on March 18, 2013, 03:13:42 AM
Yep, we're a sensitive lot who live for the praise of pasty, gender-confused Austin Powers wannabes.
Okay I have established that you're an imbecile, I don't think you understood the cross-dressing was done for parties not a general day to day thing. I am also not pale but tanned and I have no idea where you got the Austin Powers thing from as I have no desire to be a spy.
RichyRich's family was probably still in India at the time.
I wonder if there's any Indians in the woodpile.
Are you two really that  :censored: ing stupid and racist?

As far as I am concerned you are both racist mongs and maybe you two especially should be lined up against the wall and shot, the less people we have on this planet that are like you the better. How you are both married is beyond me :D
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Ade on March 18, 2013, 04:05:41 AM
What the  :censored:  are you on about? seriously, what the hell is "the US does not have, the UK and EU do not honour and the Soviet Union could not kill"... you don't even go on to say what it is Ukraine has that the others don't, you have a habit of doing this and it is bloody annoying.

Are you two really that  :censored: ing stupid and racist?

As far as I am concerned you are both racist mongs and maybe you two especially should be lined up against the wall and shot, the less people we have on this planet that are like you the better. How you are both married is beyond me :D

Angry little man comes to mind.

(http://www.dreamstime.com/angry-scottish-man-thumb8341495.jpg)

Do you also exhibit the other typical Scottish characteristic of being a tight wad?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: rosco on March 18, 2013, 05:03:14 AM

Do you also exhibit the other typical Scottish characteristic stereotype of being a tight wad?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165684/Scots-NOT-tight-fisted-finds-survey-tipping-Welsh-emerged-Britains-stingiest-people.html
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Ade on March 18, 2013, 05:27:44 AM

Do you also exhibit the other typical Scottish characteristic stereotype of being a tight wad?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165684/Scots-NOT-tight-fisted-finds-survey-tipping-Welsh-emerged-Britains-stingiest-people.html

There are good reasons why I left the country.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 18, 2013, 05:43:11 AM
Yep, we're a sensitive lot who live for the praise of pasty, gender-confused Austin Powers wannabes.
Okay I have established that you're an imbecile, I don't think you understood the cross-dressing was done for parties not a general day to day thing. I am also not pale but tanned and I have no idea where you got the Austin Powers thing from as I have no desire to be a spy.
RichyRich's family was probably still in India at the time.
I wonder if there's any Indians in the woodpile.
Are you two really that  :censored: ing stupid and racist?

As far as I am concerned you are both racist mongs and maybe you two especially should be lined up against the wall and shot, the less people we have on this planet that are like you the better. How you are both married is beyond me :D

There, there! It's OK to dress in women's apparel and I never claimed otherwise. There's nothing wrong with applying a little (or a lot of) makeup or being of 3/8 Indian ancestry. Waxing your legs and installing implants aren't weird, nor is it clueless to fail to understand that LT is posting under the influence. Suggesting that people should be lined up and shot, presumably to death, is a bit aberrant, though. After all, it really doesn't matter if people are in a neat row or placed at random for their execution; the results are pretty much the same. You should get some help for your OCD; it'll be your undoing.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 18, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
My critique of Ukrainian polity reflects not a disgust of Ukraine, its neighbors or even its current leadership, but of the West and its failure to support a true friend of freedom.  There is a case to say that the US is slouching toward a failed state and the EU is right behind it or maybe in front of it.  Took some pictures of St Andrew's Ascent.  Ukraine has something that the US does not have that much of and that the UK and Europe have but do not properly honor, something that the Soviet Union could not kill and it is in the stones that surround these wonderful people.  You see it in the eyes of the old and the young, in the countryside and when a pedestrian bows slightly at a weilding automobile.  The Bible says that when the leaders are good the people thrive, but when the leaders are bad, the people groan.  The people groan but eventually they will have good leaders.

Sorry Lord Tiberius, the leadership since Ukraine's independence has for the greatest part of its time "governing" has only served one group, and that is one another. This replaced the need to serve the Soviet Union leading from Moscow, so they serve themselves. Simply said the leaders are corrupt and avaricious. The oligarchs are largely blind to Ukraine's greater interests and future well being. This is largely why I believe the country has failed. With regards to health care, social security and education the entire structure is unravelling. Teachers being given three different syllabuses for students in one year, medical care only available in you can pay black, and social security which seems to have evaporated for the elderly.

If one has any doubts about the courts, I would suggest you look at the case of Oksana Makar. Or perhaps the investigation of Viktor Yushchenko's poisoning by Dioxin.

While I could from some perspectives understand an argument that the United States and with in the European Union certain countries are "failed" The difference is the social fabric is largely in place and in governed by the government. But in Ukraine you have a dog eat dog nepotism that is not developing new leaders only new citizens that seem intent on cheating there neighbours and fellow country men. Perhaps Ukraine as you suggest will eventually have true leaders who reflect the desires and aspirations of the people but I strongly doubt it will happen in this generation.

As for your opinion that Ukraine will become a Chechnya or (Georgia?) this is naive. The vast majority of people even those who grew up in Sumy, Poltava or further South along the Eastern border feel themselves Ukraine. Ukraine while the birthplace of Russia is not a cobbled together country that will do a Yugoslavia. (More or less one ethnicity that was divided by three different religions.)

As for the supposition that Canada has not abandoned Ukraine is a bit like saying the Polar Bears never abandoned the South pole. Canada has been a very small investor compared to the say the Dutch, the Russians and the Austrians in Ukraine. The vast and it is in fact large amount of support is from private individuals and NGO's from Canada to Ukraine. Further this primarily benefits Western Ukraine. But the largest investor and the defacto big brother of Ukraine has been Poland. One could argue though this is self serving because Poland has a great fear (based on historical reality) of Russia. If you doubt this where was the final of the European Football (Soccer) Cup in 2012? Who were the two countries that hosted this event?

Further last year I drove from Kiev by Bila Tserkva (White Church) and found the road to be quite good, so please explain what part of the road that you found so substandard.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Muzh_1 on March 18, 2013, 06:48:51 AM
My critique of Ukrainian polity reflects not a disgust of Ukraine, its neighbors or even its current leadership, but of the West and its failure to support a true friend of freedom.  There is a case to say that the US is slouching toward a failed state and the EU is right behind it or maybe in front of it.  Took some pictures of St Andrew's Ascent.  Ukraine has something that the US does not have that much of and that the UK and Europe have but do not properly honor, something that the Soviet Union could not kill and it is in the stones that surround these wonderful people.  You see it in the eyes of the old and the young, in the countryside and when a pedestrian bows slightly at a weilding automobile.  The Bible says that when the leaders are good the people thrive, but when the leaders are bad, the people groan.  The people groan but eventually they will have good leaders.



Further last year I drove from Kiev by Bila Tserkva (White Church) and found the road to be quite good, so please explain what part of the road that you found so substandard.

AV, please understand that this is the classic example of a narrow-minded person visiting a country for the first time and after seeing a road or two and have a beer at a bar, comes home as an expert in country matters.

Don't take it too seriously.
Title: MOVED: Lord Tiberious and Folks Chatting
Post by: Manny on March 19, 2013, 12:30:12 PM
The banter has been moved to Off Topic & Heated Discussion (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=12.0).

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=18849.0 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=18849.0)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 20, 2013, 11:26:39 PM
When the moderators remove the personal insults from the discussion, the discussion ends.  Tells you a lot about the the character of the trolls and what the RUA community might look like if our leaders do not restrain the confirmed losers.  It is the obvious the confirmed losers cannot restrain themselves.  They typically do not have an independent of their own and with the loyalty that only a Hitlerian lemming can appreciate they bully, rationalize and twist things.  It's destroying what this forum was, is and can still kinda be - cool.

I have an interest in seeing Ukraine succeed.  I read articles, talk to locals face to face and over the E about how to make it better and stronger.  If things work out and my fair lady and I marry and father children, I want my kids to come home to country that is nice.

But it is hard to have that conversation when one individual is on a personal crusade to destroy you because you say two words: "I disagree."  It's not very English, but it would be very welcome among the 12 dread lords that rule Ukraine - (the word on the street is that the polity that held them together is disintegrating.)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Muzh_1 on March 21, 2013, 08:22:37 AM
When the moderators remove the personal insults from the discussion, the discussion ends.  Tells you a lot about the the character of the trolls and what the RUA community might look like if our leaders do not restrain the confirmed losers.  It is the obvious the confirmed losers cannot restrain themselves.


I wonder who are you referring to as the confirmed losers. Do you mean the guys who have been married for quite a while enjoying their lives?

Please name the confirmed losers.

They typically do not have an independent of their own and with the loyalty that only a Hitlerian lemming can appreciate they bully, rationalize and twist things. 


Sh!t stinks. Only a fool or a delusional thinks otherwise.

It's destroying what this forum was, is and can still kinda be - cool.


And how do you know that? How long have you been active on these forums? A few months? And you already know the trend, huh?

I have an interest in seeing Ukraine succeed.  I read articles, talk to locals face to face and over the E about how to make it better and stronger.  If things work out and my fair lady and I marry and father children, I want my kids to come home to country that is nice.


Again, only a fool or delusional think that everybody here except you and your clan want to see Ukraine succeed and the rest of us want to see it go to hell.

But it is hard to have that conversation when one individual is on a personal crusade to destroy you because you say two words: "I disagree."  It's not very English, but it would be very welcome among the 12 dread lords that rule Ukraine - (the word on the street is that the polity that held them together is disintegrating.)

Here's a little secret for you. If you would only stop being such a clown and take things seriously, this would be a very different story.

The so-called 'confirmed losers' have been there, done that and have no patience with the idiots that come here stating their fantasy is the only truth instead of asking questions and learning and discussing.

The problem you are having is that you are behaving like a clown and don't like being called on that.

It can't be any simpler.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 21, 2013, 09:06:14 AM
You are taking this personal.  If you have something to discuss about Ukraine, we can.  Otherwise, I have no desire to discuss subjects  :offtopic:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 21, 2013, 09:11:39 AM
I will be back in Ukraine next week and ask locals what they think of there/their land.

From my last trip one acquaintance said “We don't need democracy ~ we are not German.”
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 21, 2013, 09:29:53 AM
I will be back in Ukraine next week and ask locals what they think of there/their land.

From my last trip one acquaintance said “We don't need democracy ~ we are not German.”

I wish there was a way you could read this article without paying for it:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/fareed-zakaria-eu-ties-can-help-break-oligarchs-grip-321450.html

I read the print edition on the way back.  Lufthansa gives away newspapers for free.  Fareed Zakaria says that Ukies should leverage the tools of the new economy to be prosperous in spite of the oligarchs and that the EU should trade but not ignore when Ukr misbehaves.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 21, 2013, 09:37:41 AM
I will be back in Ukraine next week and ask locals what they think of there/their land.

From my last trip one acquaintance said “We don't need democracy ~ we are not German.”

I wish there was a way you could read this article without paying for it:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/fareed-zakaria-eu-ties-can-help-break-oligarchs-grip-321450.html

I read the print edition on the way back.  Lufthansa gives away newspapers for free.  Fareed Zakaria says that Ukies should leverage the tools of the new economy to be prosperous in spite of the oligarchs and that the EU should trade but not ignore when Ukr misbehaves.

Julia usually collects the two English papers for me to read when I in Kyiv. Looking forward to reading it.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 21, 2013, 10:17:39 AM
Putin and Yankovych had a closed door meeting that ended with Yanokovych ending the meeting at 2 am angry and getting into his plane and leaving by 3am presumably empty handed.  What concerns me is if factions are emerging between the 12 Oligarchs, will it get violent and will that violence spill over to the innocents?  No one wants to see the repeat of the 90s.

Also in the news, Zhevago wants to displace 12 towns for his mining combine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostyantin_Zhevago
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: bagalia on March 21, 2013, 10:25:44 AM

I wish there was a way you could read this article without paying for it:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/fareed-zakaria-eu-ties-can-help-break-oligarchs-grip-321450.html

Not that this article inspires me. Just lending a hand to the discussion. Anything can be found for free if you look for it.

http://www.globaleducationleadership.org/fareed-zakaria-eu-ties-can-help-break-oligarchs-grip.html/
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Muzh_1 on March 21, 2013, 10:26:08 AM
Putin and Yankovych had a closed door meeting that ended with Yanokovych ending the meeting at 2 am angry and getting into his plane and leaving by 3am presumably empty handed.  What concerns me is if factions are emerging between the 12 Oligarchs, will it get violent and will that violence spill over to the innocents?  No one wants to see the repeat of the 90s.

Also in the news, Zhevago wants to displace 12 towns for his mining combine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostyantin_Zhevago

Do you have any clue what they were talking about? Let's see how well versed you are. Keep in mind I refuse to pay that rag (KP) any money.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 22, 2013, 02:23:44 AM
Where is all this bitterness coming from?  But more importantly what have I said that is false?

Here is a list of the known Oligarchs that rule Ukraine:


Major Oligarchs

Rinat Akhmetov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinat_Akhmetov

Viktor Pinchuk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Pinchuk

Petro Poroshenko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko

Dmytro Firtash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Firtash

Leonid Chernovetskyi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Chernovetskyi

Oleksandr Yaroslavsky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Yaroslavsky

Ihor Kolomoyskyi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Sergei Tigipko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tigipko

Andriy Klyuyev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Klyuyev

Yulia Tymoshenko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Vadim Rabinovich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadim_Rabinovich

Pavlo Lazarenko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlo_Lazarenko

Minor Oliarchs

Borys Kolesnikov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borys_Kolesnikov

Tariel Vasadze
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariel_Vasadze

Kostyantin Zhevago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostyantin_Zhevago
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Muzh_1 on March 22, 2013, 08:30:18 AM
That's not what I asked.

Also, what you said is not false. It is not true either. If you are speculating, please say so.

You want to discuss Ukrainian politics, I'll be more than happy to do so. I'm pretty sure Halo will join in the snap of the fingers and Chris will too.

BUT, you'll have to do your homework.

Deal?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 22, 2013, 12:08:08 PM
Muzh,  I don't know.  Nothing against you of course.  Secretly I like and admire you.  But now that I know that the genderless keyboardist owns this forum.  It's time I pick up my chips and find another game.  I am sorry that things went south between us and I acknowledge my part in it.  I am glad your happy and that you found someone.

PS
the word on the street is that Jack is dying.  He had an operation on his throat and that it is cancer.  I had a bitter argument, but I don't want the man dead.  Pray for him and pray this is another instance of LT being WRONG-O!

God Bless Ya!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on March 22, 2013, 12:36:52 PM
Secretly I like and admire you.  But now that I know that the genderless keyboardist owns this forum.  It's time I pick up my chips and find another game.

Lord Tiberius,

It is your choice but it is in a way it is a pity. While you and I have and have had our differences but to consider the owner as "the genderless keyboardist" is cheap. Your reason is in my opinion almost 2nd grade behavior.

We have all see you eloquent - we have all see you stupid - the majority still respect that you got on the plane twice and seem to be on your way to Betsy. Everyone has there brain farts so move on a be a positive member.

Finlay and if you go so be it, but bringing a spouse it is not a poker game that you can move stakes as suits you.  RUA is and I looked at the other sites still the most comprehensive show around.

Av
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on March 22, 2013, 12:40:54 PM
Muzh,  I don't know.  Nothing against you of course.  Secretly I like and admire you.  But now that I know that the genderless keyboardist owns this forum.  It's time I pick up my chips and find another game.  I am sorry that things went south between us and I acknowledge my part in it.  I am glad your happy and that you found someone.

PS
the word on the street is that Jack is dying.  He had an operation on his throat and that it is cancer.  I had a bitter argument, but I don't want the man dead.  Pray for him and pray this is another instance of LT being WRONG-O!

God Bless Ya!

LT - I agree with AV.

Leave any insults for others, use here as a springboard to an eternal happiness, that is after all, what life is all about.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Larry on March 22, 2013, 12:56:22 PM
Quote
But now that I know that the genderless keyboardist owns this forum.  It's time I pick up my chips and find another game.

That phrase genderless keyboardist has me puzzled.  I even googled it to see if it was some commonly used phrase that I just had not heard.  But it, like LT, is sui generis.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on March 22, 2013, 01:14:14 PM
LT - I agree with AV.

Leave any insults for others, use here as a springboard to an eternal happiness, that is after all, what life is all about.

Really? 

Damn!

And I brought you two together?

wow!  I really screwed up.  OK
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on March 23, 2013, 09:04:18 PM
That phrase genderless keyboardist has me puzzled.

He's referring to me as the "genderless keyboardist who owns this forum" and he's in a bad mood because his movement to oust me only succeeded in getting himself moderated.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on November 23, 2013, 02:17:20 AM
With about a week to go Ukraine has decided not to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union in Vilnius. One of the politician's abroad said this confirms Ukraine as a failed state. And Former Foreign Affairs Minister of Ukraine Volodymyr Ohryzko expects worsening of Ukraine's image due to the decision of the Cabinet of Ministers to suspend the preparations. Further on in an article he said "I believe that is absolutely slick, silly and inadequate step of the government, which would seriously affect the image of Ukraine as an expected partner. We have lost face in our relations with Europe. No one would ever believe us. I mean not us but current authorities,"

There are different reasons as to why this has occurred and but in the end it most likely is the strong arming coming from Moscow combined with the fact that the present ruling party counts its support mainly in the more Russian side of Ukraine and it fears an economic war with Russia will hurt its chances in the election in 2015.

From what I have seen though the East of Ukraine seems to be more economically depressed than the West that has to a degree found different ways to trade with Poland and Slovakia and further West.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on November 23, 2013, 05:14:37 AM
The fools, they have played right into the hands of Russia, now if/when they sign an agreement with Russia it will be on their terms not Ukraine's. Ukraine had better be prepared to get bullied by Russia now!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on November 23, 2013, 06:50:50 AM
The fools, they have played right into the hands of Russia, now if/when they sign an agreement with Russia it will be on their terms not Ukraine's. Ukraine had better be prepared to get bullied fcuked by Russia now!

It has been going on for some +/- 400 years so they now when to bend over.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on November 23, 2013, 02:37:01 PM
So, you gauge Ukraine as a failed state, because it did not join the EU .....

So, the USA is a failed state.

Certainly, Canada is a failed state.

And of course China ....

Maybe Ukraine is in better company than some of ya'll think?

wayne
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on November 23, 2013, 03:16:14 PM
The fools, they have played right into the hands of Russia, now if/when they sign an agreement with Russia it will be on their terms not Ukraine's. Ukraine had better be prepared to get bullied by Russia now!

+1  Sadly I agree with this...
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: redroo on November 23, 2013, 03:38:05 PM
They are going to be well and truly screwed now, idiots
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 23, 2013, 03:42:23 PM
Why is it deemed so negative by some to strengthen bonds with Russia?

The EU doesn't need another lame duck. And the UK doesn't need millions more immigrants.

Why should we pay to fix their broken infrastructure?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on November 23, 2013, 03:47:35 PM
Why is it deemed so negative by some to strengthen bonds with Russia?

The EU doesn't need another lame duck. And the UK doesn't need millions more immigrants.

Why should we pay to fix their broken infrastructure?

I think it's because of the perception, and prolly correct, that ties with Russia will just result in more of the same corruption of top Politicians and insiders and screwing everybody else.  There is more of a chance of developing a middle class and yes, improving their infrastructure with ties to the West.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 23, 2013, 04:05:02 PM
Perhaps, but we don't want them. Russia does.

It would just be another money pit like Bulgaria, Romania, Greece and the others who should never have been let in. Hundreds of Billions of pounds would need to be poured in year after year for a decade or more.

Much of it would buy blokes called Boris a new Mercedes and a shiny new dacha.

The EU is only just out of recession [well, most of it], some individual economies are still failing. It would be like asking the US to take on Mexico and go in and fix it while opening the borders. Imagine that.........
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on November 23, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Perhaps, but we don't want them. Russia does.

It would just be another money pit like Bulgaria, Romania, Greece and the others who should never have been let in. Hundreds of Billions of pounds would need to be poured in year after year for a decade or more.

Much of it would buy blokes called Boris a new Mercedes and a shiny new dacha.

The EU is only just out of recession [well, most of it], some individual economies are still failing. It would be like asking the US to take on Mexico and go in and fix it while opening the borders. Imagine that.........

Now that you put it that way (US taking on Mexico  :D) I can see your aversion to it.  There are many things I like very much about Russia, I just always hope they will really have reforms and improve opportunities for the middle class, and especially remove the constant bribing that must be done.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on November 23, 2013, 04:23:41 PM
The best way the US could help (force them to change) Mexico would be send the current 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants back so that the Politicians there had to change. 

As it is they get remittances back and they literally tell their citizens "go to the US for free healthcare (they just go to the ER and never pay the bill--the hospitals are reqd by law to take them) free pre-natal care, free education, free this and free that.  If the woman is pregnant they try to get here and have an anchor baby.  They clog up all levels of our government assistant plans and rip us off big time.  If we forced them all back, pay a penalty if you want to come back as a temp worker (6 months in, 6 months out) but NEVER get Citizenship because they broke the LAW of our country.

We are the only country (advanced) in the world without border security.

Looking at it from that POV I can see why some in the UK and rest of Europe do not want Ukraine.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: redroo on November 23, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Manny, I understand your aversion given the financial burden, but the question was "is Ukraine a failed State?"
to which the only answer can be yes, and now Russia will keep their foot on the throat.
I had great hopes for a freer, less corrupt society to come, but we are seeing the orange revolution was wasted.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on November 23, 2013, 07:58:26 PM
The Association Agreement was more a trade agreement to allow EU countries (states) better access to the Ukraine market and vice versa.

Ukraine is a long way from being any where near a Schengen member.

Many of the so-called day labours of Poland are in fact from Ukraine as are many of the same in England from Poland.

As for sending all the immigrants from Mexico and Central America that are in the United States as well as those who are from Central/Eastern Europe and Turkey back home. Who will collect the trash and take care of the kiddies, who will deliver the packages, and paint your homes and cut your lawns?

Yes unfortunately many abuse the systems, but I would guess a larger percentage earn money to support there family back home.

For what it is worth I work with a day guy in CT, 56 years old strong as an ox. He can lift twice his weight, every dollar he earns beyond his expenses he sends to his family. Two daughters in college, wife he has not seen for some three years. They have a small farm about an hour from the capital. He does not complain, he works.

When with another employer he injured himself and started to work with me I noticed something wrong. I took him to an Emergency room and used my Credit Card to pay the bill. The next day at the end of the day we had a beers, it is was Saturday and he goes to church on Sunday. He cried and blubbered out thank you.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Herrie on November 23, 2013, 11:05:54 PM
Why is it deemed so negative by some to strengthen bonds with Russia?

The EU doesn't need another lame duck. And the UK doesn't need millions more immigrants.

Why should we pay to fix their broken infrastructure?
I think you should keep up with what was actually on the table! (I know it's difficult for you guys in the UK to keep up with anything that happens on the mainland  :ROFL:)

I'm no big fan of the EU in it's current form, though it does offer quite some (economic) benefits, it's political institutions need drastic reforms (smaller, more democratic, no more Brussels<->Strasbourg, kill the agricultural subsidies which lead to a lot of unnecessary waste of resources etc)

It was purely a trade agreement, no full EU or Schengen membership that was on the table. That might have been on the table sometime in the future, but I doubt that would have been anytime soon (I would expect at least another 15-20 years in case they would have signed).

Ukraine shoot themselves in the foot once again, being blackmailed by Russia (Russia has been putting a lot of restrictions and delays on Ukrainian imports lately...), by not signing.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Net_Lenka on November 23, 2013, 11:12:41 PM
Well "The EU doesn't need another lame duck" -  that's OK And when Russia says - no more benefits and discounts  for you  - that's blackmail
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Slumba on November 23, 2013, 11:59:39 PM
It is an interesting question ... I think Russia has a strong position given that they have a lot of oil and gas revenues at this point. 

I think I read that Russia's cost to get a barrel of oil is about $45 to 47 - with oil at over $90 for how many years, they have quite a warchest. 

And Russia has a tight grip on part of the EU gas supply, right?

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on November 24, 2013, 02:44:15 AM
Manny, I understand your aversion given the financial burden, but the question was "is Ukraine a failed State?"
to which the only answer can be yes, and now Russia will keep their foot on the throat.
I had great hopes for a freer, less corrupt society to come, but we are seeing the orange revolution was wasted.

Exactly redroo, that was the question, Manny you have it wrong, as AV and Herrie state above, the Association Agreement was more a trade agreement to allow EU countries (states) better access to the Ukrainian market and vice versa.

Ukraine is a long way from being any where near a Schengen member and even further from ever becoming an EU member, for sure we don't want any more lame ducks I'm with you there, but this is not even on the cards at this point.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on November 24, 2013, 02:51:05 AM
I posted this below on GoGabber (http://www.gogabber.com/showthread.php?t=11002&page=2) back in October on the How Russia Lost Ukraine (http://www.gogabber.com/showthread.php?t=11002) thread, I said then Ukraines better long term option was for it to sign the Trade Agreement, but since then, it seems Russia has put more pressure on and we are where we are now, Ukraine will now suffer for throwing in its lot with Russia.



Quote from: Chris from GoGabber 27th Oct 2013
This hasn't happened overnight, it goes all the way back to 2003, when Putin started working hard on Ukraine, launching the Common Economic Space of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Shrewdly, the then-President Leonid Kuchma went along with it, and in 2004 Putin was seeing Kuchma more or less each month.

Then, during the 2004 presidential campaign, Putin went to Ukraine twice to campaign for his preferred candidate, Viktor Yanukovych and despite gross election fraud, Putin congratulated him three times on his victory, even though Putin has never thought much of Yanukovych.

Moving on, and following the 2010 presidential election which Yanukovych won fairly easily, he realised that membership in the Customs Union would make Ukraine completely dependent on Russia.

Any member of the Customs Union has to raise over 11,000 customs tariffs to the higher Russian level, that would harm the Ukrainian economy massively, it would also violate its membership in the World Trade Organization (WTO) and make it virtually impossible for Ukraine to conclude any bilateral free trade agreement.

Belatedly, Kazakhstan realises that it cannot now enter the WTO as intended because of its membership in the Customs Union. So, instead, Yanukovych sensibly opted for an Association Agreement with a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, which the Orange government had started negotiating back in 2007.

Following on, relations between Putin and Yanukovych broke down during Putin's visit to Kiev in October 2010, Putin again, demanded that Ukraine joined the Customs Union and complained about two major Russian-owned companies in Ukraine having been raided by Ukrainian oligarchs: the Kremenchuk oil refinery and Zaporozhstal. Putin made clear that Russia would cut transit of both oil and gas through Ukraine, as is currently being done.

Yanukovych did nothing to accommodate Putin. It did not help that feminist group Femen protested against Putin with posters such as "we do not give ourselves to the dwarves in the Kremlin." Furious, Putin departed and demonstratively skipped the planned dinner with leading Ukrainian businessmen.

After this pretty disastrous meeting, Putin and Yanukovych have met on a few occasions. Yanukovych and his administration are dying for a serious discussion with Putin about gas prices, which Putin has avoided, because he remained fixated on Ukraine joining the Custom Union.

As usual, Yanukovych tried to be clever, which does not come naturally to him, because he just ain't and last May, Ukraine signed an agreement with the Customs Union to become an observer, but that step lacks legal significance.

Yanukovych had a clear choice. If he frees Tymoshenko from prison, the EU may sign the important Association Agreement that was concluded in 2011 at its summit in Vilnius in late November. This agreement would offer Ukraine some major benefits.

In July, Putin went to Ukraine to celebrate the 1025th anniversary of the christening of Kievan Rus. Despite standing next to Yanukovych, he once again managed to avoid talking to him. Back home, Putin quietly escalated his anti-Ukrainian actions with a fully fledged trade war without any official declaration, blocking imports of steel pipes, chocolates and various agricultural products. Undeterred, Putin has imposed a near complete boycott against Ukrainian imports using red tape as his chief weapon. Considering that Russia last year imported one fifth of Ukraine's exports, this is a heavy blow to Ukraine. But, this blow is all the greater because Yanukovych has put the Ukrainian economy in a miserable state. It has been in recession for a while now, and its international reserves are in quick decline, having fallen from a peak of $38 billion two years ago to just under $23 billion at present, covering only 2 1/2 months of imports, neither the International Monetary Fund nor the EU is prepared to help Ukraine, given Yanukovych's poor economic and human rights policies.

Putin's actions suggest that he is intent on forcing Yanukovych down to his knees. But, Putin is more likely to isolate Russia and force Ukraine into the European community, and that's where they are right now, its the better option long term.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on November 24, 2013, 02:54:15 AM
Why is it deemed so negative by some to strengthen bonds with Russia?

The EU doesn't need another lame duck. And the UK doesn't need millions more immigrants.

Why should we pay to fix their broken infrastructure?
I think you should keep up with what was actually on the table! (I know it's difficult for you guys in the UK to keep up with anything that happens on the mainland  :ROFL:)

I'm no big fan of the EU in it's current form, though it does offer quite some (economic) benefits, it's political institutions need drastic reforms (smaller, more democratic, no more Brussels<->Strasbourg, kill the agricultural subsidies which lead to a lot of unnecessary waste of resources etc)

It was purely a trade agreement, no full EU or Schengen membership that was on the table. That might have been on the table sometime in the future, but I doubt that would have been anytime soon (I would expect at least another 15-20 years in case they would have signed).

Ukraine shoot themselves in the foot once again, being blackmailed by Russia (Russia has been putting a lot of restrictions and delays on Ukrainian imports lately...), by not signing.

Spot on Herrie  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 24, 2013, 02:54:26 AM
Manny, I understand your aversion given the financial burden, but the question was "is Ukraine a failed State?"
to which the only answer can be yes, and now Russia will keep their foot on the throat.
I had great hopes for a freer, less corrupt society to come, but we are seeing the orange revolution was wasted.

Exactly redroo, that was the question, Manny you have it wrong, as AV and Herrie state above, the Association Agreement was more a trade agreement to allow EU countries (states) better access to the Ukrainian market and vice versa.

Ukraine is a long way from being any where near a Schengen member and even further from ever becoming an EU member, for sure we don't want any more lame ducks I'm with you there, but this is not even on the cards at this point.

I do know all that stuff. But the trade agreement is the first step closer. Its a process, trade agreements, other agreements, then council of Europe etc. But Russia opposes any of that integration (by putting its own regional customs and trade deal on the table I recall).
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Net_Lenka on November 24, 2013, 03:58:18 AM
  Manny could you explain how that trading agreement could help "falling Ukrainian state'? Do you really belive that the Ukraina could be any competitive to promote own products at EU market? Especially if the EU's promises to open western market for UKraina go in a set with such demands like raising prices on gas and fuel for people on 40%, freeze minimum and base salary on present level,  as well as cutt off social budget and subsidies for a national  economy ( ah yeah there was also some ultimatum about Timoshenko)
But that's all demands of course OK becuase EU wishes only the best to Ukraina (like to Greece some decades ago)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: redroo on November 24, 2013, 05:38:10 AM
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ukraine-dumps-eu-in-favor-of-russia/490065.html

Ukraine on Thursday suspended its course toward closer ties with the European Union in a major victory for Russia.

The Ukrainian Cabinet made the move just a week before a summit with the EU where the parties were planning to sign an association agreement, which would yank Kiev from Moscow's embrace.

The Cabinet cited “interests of national security” for the stunning reversal of the country's policy, telling various ministries to turn to Russia and other former Soviet republics in an effort to improve Ukraine's economy.

“The said ministries have also been instructed to resume an active dialog with the Russian Federation,” the Cabinet said, according to a statement on its website.

Ukraine would also “work with” the Russia-led Customs Union and the Commonwealth of Independent States, or CIS, the statement said.

A larger Ukrainian economy would provide more parity in relations with the EU, it said. The country's economy declined 1.3 percent in the first nine months of this year, compared to the same period last year.

President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said Thursday that Russia welcomed Kiev's desire to improve trade ties with Moscow, signaling satisfaction with a Ukrainian government's decision to suspend preparations for a landmark trade pact with the EU.

"We welcome the desire to improve and develop trade and economic cooperation," Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said, Reuters reported. He called Ukraine a "close partner" and said Russia would respect any decision it made about the EU deal.

The Cabinet made the surprise decision after Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov came from Russia where he took part in a meeting of CIS prime ministers, which he described as “one of the most successful meetings,” in a separate statement on the Cabinet website. He discussed building up bilateral economic cooperation and trade with his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev.

In Thursday's decree, the Cabinet proposed creating a trilateral commission between itself, Russia and the European Union, which would look at ways to advance Ukraine's economic development. Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych first voiced the idea at the end of last month following a meeting with Putin in Minsk.

Opposition and European politicians bristled at the news of the turnaround.

Failure by Yanukovych to sign the agreement with the EU now would amount to "state treason,” provide “grounds for impeachment," opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk said in comments about the diplomatic turnaround, Interfax reported. He also called for Azarov to resign.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said Ukraine hit the brakes because of Russia's threats of trade retaliation in recent months.

“Ukraine government suddenly bows deeply to the Kremlin. Politics of brutal pressure evidently works,” he said on Twitter.

Russia briefly stepped up customs inspections at the border with Ukraine in August; demanded immediate payment of the huge debt for natural gas; and warned it would tear up numerous cooperation deals should the former fellow Soviet republic sign the EU agreement.

Bildt added that shunning the EU would be a bane for Ukraine's declining economy.

It “will hardly help to turn away from EU reforms and toward Russia,” he wrote. It “kills FDI [Foreign Direct Investment] prospects.”

Earlier on Thursday, Ukraine's pro-presidential parliament rejected a set of bills that would have fulfilled a key condition for integration with the EU.

All six bills would have allowed the release of jailed former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, something the EU demanded in return for signing an association agreement with Kiev at a summit set for next week.

The EU sees Tymoshenko's seven-year prison sentence for abuse of office as politically motivated, as she was the strongest challenger to incumbent president Viktor Yanukovych during the latest elections in 2010.

"It is President Viktor Yanukovych who is personally blocking Ukraine's movement toward the EU," Yatsenyuk told parliament in an emotional speech after the vote to free Tymoshenko failed, the AP reported.

President Vladimir Putin had warned after the vote in Ukraine’s parliament that if the trade agreements were signed at the upcoming EU summit in Lithuania, Russia “could not leave the gates with Ukraine as wide open as they are today,” RIA Novosti reported.

Yanukovych previously objected to Tymoshenko's release, but the bills offered a compromise of letting the former prime minister — who suffers from a back problem — leave jail to travel to Germany for medical treatment.

The parliament, which is dominated by Yanukovych's allies including his Party of the Regions, failed to muster enough votes to pass the bills, as two top EU envoys looked on. Opposition lawmakers responded with chants of "Shame! Shame!" and urged Yanukovych to pardon Tymoshenko through a presidential decree.

In theory, Yanukovych could have made such a move before the summit begins in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius on Nov. 28. Or he could have allowed Tymoshenko to walk out of prison by having the parliament pass the legislation next week.

Yanukovych took a harder line in the talks with the EU in recent days, following a closed-door meeting with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin.

Yanukovych was away on a visit to Austria on Thursday and did not comment on the reversal.



Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ukraine-dumps-eu-in-favor-of-russia/490065.html#ixzz2lZ9rQorZ
The Moscow Times
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on November 24, 2013, 06:56:22 AM
Manny, I understand your aversion given the financial burden, but the question was "is Ukraine a failed State?"
to which the only answer can be yes, and now Russia will keep their foot on the throat.
I had great hopes for a freer, less corrupt society to come, but we are seeing the orange revolution was wasted.

There was no 'Orange Revolution' it was a bought and paid for insurrection attempt led by bought and paid for criminals. It was one of a number of similar disruptive events in the region all paid for by external actors.

By no accepted standards is Ukraine a failed state. The rule of law applies, the bodies of state function as they should, the state has control over ts borders and internal territory, there is an active economic system, the country exchanges ambassadors with many other nations and has an effective military.

Here, from Princeton University is an explanation of how a failed state might be defined: http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Failed_state.html
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: redroo on November 24, 2013, 08:10:26 AM
We can count on you Andrew  :bow:

I amend that to "failing state";

"non-provision of public services; widespread corruption and criminality" Ring any bells?

By who's definition do you judge there to be "rule of law" in Ukraine?
because my on the ground opinion is that there is one rule, who has the money and/or contacts wins!
The Police and Courts are as corrupt as they come.
There is NOT effective functioning (as it should be) by Government bodies.
The Military is a joke (would you like to go to Sevastopol and Balaklava and inspect their Navy?  :chuckle:)
The economy is stuffed (especially with Russia's foot on their throat as their biggest market)
The exchange rate is manipulated to save the ruling classes (ill-gotten) investments.
The Government used to steal gas while it was in-transit from Russia to Europe.
They try not to pay for the gas they do "buy" from Russia.

Shall I go on?

If it wasn't for the millions of dollars spent by western men chasing (mostly unavailable) women they would be in even more trouble don't you think?

Would you care to explain who then poisoned a previous president? since you know everything about the (non) revolution of that time?  :coffeeread:
 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on November 24, 2013, 08:52:22 AM
Redroo, no, not even failing.

Bear in mind that in the ranking of nations Ukraine is firmly middle class.

Ukraine is nowhere near as bad as you imagine it to be. There is a ranking used by the Fund For Peace. Their ranking is useful. To give you an idea. If you would describe Malaysia ir Thailand as failing states (and they most certainly are not) then Ukraine ranks better then either of those two. If you think Russia is a failing state and, again it is not, again firmly middle class, then Ukraine would be in a similar group to Russia.

Have a look at the listing and the criteria used here: http://ffp.statesindex.org/rankings-2013-sortable

A PBS commentary about the 15 states most likely to fail by 2030: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/12/countries-at-risk.html
The places listed are places that you'd not want to visit because of how they are now. A whole different world to countries such as Russia or Ukraine.
To place a little context. Back in 1998/9 there was talk of the possibility of Russia not being able to survive as an independent state. I was there at the time and I could see what was meant. Ukraine today is nothing like Russia was back then and neither is Russia today like Russia back then. The naysayers and doom mongers were Jeremiahs who did not account for the ability of people to solve problems. It was those fears that drove the MOB business and as it became clear that Russia and now Ukraine are safe and have a decent future the idea of women selling themselves to foreigners died away.

That is not to say that things are perfect, they are not. But it does not help a discussion when we use terms inaccurately.

The choice to look at economic alliance with Russia or the EU was a close run thing as can be appreciated by reading the discussion on the topic. There are strong cultural, historic, social and economic reasons for either choice. Not everybody will be satisfied by any choice however I have no doubt that Putin's suggestion of a tripartite discussion and an inclusive paradigm rather then the EU shit or bust approach would have made a pro-Russian choice easier to make.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on November 24, 2013, 10:16:00 AM

By no accepted standards is Ukraine a failed state.

Here, from Princeton University is an explanation of how a failed state might be defined: http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Failed_state.html

Amusing Andrew if you read the material you link to and study the back ground than in many ways Ukraine is closer to Somalia some five years ago than to even Greece today.

The saving grace of Ukraine is the people and there striving for a better future. As for the politicians give them to Russia or The United States.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on November 24, 2013, 10:45:05 AM
AvHdB: If you wish to hold an opinion based upon your misunderstanding of what you have half read then fine, but expect to be ridiculed from time to time.

If you think that you can support your suggestion that Ukraine is in the process of falling into the state referred to as Failed State please use some objective evidence to support your hypothesis. There may be a job for a man of your undiscovered skills with the Fund For Peace.

To look objectively for just a moment. Using the ranking I shared with you. Look at how Ukraine is ranked. Notice that there are dozens of states with lower rankings than Ukraine including such places as Malaysia, Thailand, China or the Philippines. For Ukraine to be rationally considered as a failing state like these from the lower ranked nations would have to fail, to become lawless, ungoverned territories overrun by other states and with negligible economic output.

Such a situation has never ever happened in the history of the world and no rational person expects that such a thing might happen.

So, please share the insight that demonstrates that in the next 15 to 20 years that some 110 or more states are going to become similar to Somalia, Sudan or Congo today.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on November 24, 2013, 11:00:12 AM
AvHdB: If you wish to hold an opinion based upon your misunderstanding of what you have half read then fine, but expect to be ridiculed from time to time.

If you use the criteria that you provided than Ukraine is on a slippery and steep slope towards failure.

It is only the IMF and International loans that are originating in the West that keep the balance of payments of Ukraine some what sustainable. Remove these than the house of cards falls down.

As I said upthread the reason that the agreement was rejected was because the powers to be are more interested in being re-elected in 2015 than helping the general population.

Andrew are you really so naive to think with the century long history of Russia abusing Ukraine will suddenly change under the regime of Putin. Perhaps you are next going to argue the Holodomor is a fiction of the West.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on November 24, 2013, 12:49:08 PM
The EU doesn't need another lame duck. And the UK doesn't need millions more immigrants.

Why should we pay to fix their broken infrastructure?
1. It's an association agreement not EU membership (that wouldn't happen for quite some time).
2. For a guy that's married to a foreigner, you seem to harbour strong anti-immigrant views which to me seems a tad bit worrying, especially when you're in the business of helping men and women find their respective partners in the FSU.
3. Who said anything about paying for Ukraine's infrastructure? :D
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 24, 2013, 01:08:01 PM
Russia 'blackmailed Ukraine to ditch EU pact'
Yulia Tymoshenko calls for Ukrainians to take to the streets as President Yanukovych comes under pressure from Kremlin

The European Union and Russia traded charges of blackmail on Friday over the future of Ukraine.

The Kremlin threatened the country with trade losses worth billions and costing hundreds of thousands of jobs if it signed up to a strategic pact with the European Union, senior Lithuanian officials said.

President Vladimir Putin of Russia said the EU was putting pressure on Kiev and organising mass protests against President Viktor Yanukovych.

A week before a critical EU summit in Vilnius, the Lithuanian capital, that was to
be capped by the Brussels-Kiev pact, Yanukovych abruptly pulled out of the deal
on Thursday, leaving EU policy in shreds and Putin relishing victory in the contest
for Ukraine's future.

The volte face was a result of Russian blackmail, the Lithuanian president's office
said as senior officials in Brussels said Yanukovych was sacrificing the hopes and
wishes of most of his countrymen on the altar of Russian money and contracts.

Yulia Tymoshenko, the imprisoned former prime minister and arch-rival of Yanukovych,
whose release and transfer to Germany has been the central condition for the EU
pact, pleaded with the president to reverse his decision.

In a letter to Yanukovych from prison, she renounced the release condition and pledged she would stay in jail in Ukraine if Yanukovych relented. Fear of facing Tymoshenko in a 2015 presidential battle is believed to be one of the main reasons
for the president's rebuff of the EU.

"I give you my word that, if you make a decision to sign the [EU] agreement, on
the same day I will appeal to European leaders asking them to sign the agreement
without fulfilling all criteria including the part regarding my release. I don't know
if they will listen to my appeal but I will do everything possible for the signing of
the agreement even as I continue to sit in prison," said Tymoshenko. "This is the
only chance for you to survive as a politician," she told Yanukovych. "Because now,
when you are killing the agreement you are making the biggest mistake of your life."

The thunderbolt from Yanukovych brought pro-European protesters on to the streets
of central Kiev before what promises to be a weekend of campaigning climaxing in a
large rally on Sunday.

Around 1,500 took to the streets waving EU flags on Thursday evening.
Organisers expect tens of thousands to join protests on Sunday. Jovita
Neliupšiene, foreign policy aide to President Dalia Grybauskaite of Lithuania,
said Yanukovych had called her before announcing he was ditching the EU pact, arguing that the pressure from Moscow was irresistible.

There is more read about it here
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/22/russia-ukraine-eu-pact-lithuania
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 24, 2013, 01:24:39 PM
1. It's an association agreement not EU membership (that wouldn't happen for quite some time).

I explained this already upthread. It was to be the start of the process.

2. For a guy that's married to a foreigner, you seem to harbour strong anti-immigrant views which to me seems a tad bit worrying,

I am against mass uncontrolled immigration as we saw with Poland, still see with Asia and Africa, and as we are about to see with Bulgaria and Romania. Simply because my wife - who is now a British citizen - happens to have been born abroad, doesn't mean I automatically agree with all immigration.

Further, FSU women imported here by men are small in number, and the men are means tested so they are not a burden on the country.

especially when you're in the business of helping men and women find their respective partners in the FSU.

I am not in that business. Maybe you have me confused with someone else?

3. Who said anything about paying for Ukraine's infrastructure? :D

I don't know if you visited any other Eastern bloc/FSU places before they joined the EU, I did. I also see what has happened there since. Who do you think paid for that? America? Israel? Australia? Norway? No, it was the good old £53 million pounds a day that the UK is forced to put into the EU to be a member. Not to mention Germany and other high input members.

The sooner we get a referendum and get the hell out of the EU the better. We can then sit on the sidelines smirking like Norway and Switzerland do, while they strive to include every lame duck nation they can find into the 'club'.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on November 24, 2013, 01:26:36 PM
The EU doesn't need another lame duck. And the UK doesn't need millions more immigrants.

Why should we pay to fix their broken infrastructure?
1. It's an association agreement not EU membership (that wouldn't happen for quite some time).
2. For a guy that's married to a foreigner, you seem to harbour strong anti-immigrant views which to me seems a tad bit worrying, especially when you're in the business of helping men and women find their respective partners in the FSU.
3. Who said anything about paying for Ukraine's infrastructure? :D

1.) Quite true

2.) As for the relationship of Manny, well that is not much of your concern. As for RUA can only give diverse opinions based on our collective "wisdom" I am sure there are days that Manny would like some £ for each marriage from a foreign bride and an English gentleman. There are most likely other days when he would rather prevent said marriage. We can only present our common sense if you use it that is your business.

3.) In fact indirectly via the Euro 2012 Europe paid allot for the improvements for the infrastructure, at least based on the signs at airports and along the highways to and from Kiev.

The question though is where will Ukraine be in 2 years and in 5 years. Will the country move closer towards Europe or will it slide into a new Russia with all past history as a future path?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on November 24, 2013, 05:54:38 PM
The Association Agreement was more a trade agreement to allow EU countries (states) better access to the Ukraine market and vice versa.

Ukraine is a long way from being any where near a Schengen member.

Many of the so-called day labours of Poland are in fact from Ukraine as are many of the same in England from Poland.

As for sending all the immigrants from Mexico and Central America that are in the United States as well as those who are from Central/Eastern Europe and Turkey back home. Who will collect the trash and take care of the kiddies, who will deliver the packages, and paint your homes and cut your lawns?

Yes unfortunately many abuse the systems, but I would guess a larger percentage earn money to support there family back home.

For what it is worth I work with a day guy in CT, 56 years old strong as an ox. He can lift twice his weight, every dollar he earns beyond his expenses he sends to his family. Two daughters in college, wife he has not seen for some three years. They have a small farm about an hour from the capital. He does not complain, he works.

When with another employer he injured himself and started to work with me I noticed something wrong. I took him to an Emergency room and used my Credit Card to pay the bill. The next day at the end of the day we had a beers, it is was Saturday and he goes to church on Sunday. He cried and blubbered out thank you.

I said to give them temporary worker status and allow them 6 months in and 6 months out (some have said 9 months in and only 3 months out).  I am not a sadist, I know most are hard working human beings.  I am simply against awarding Citizenship to illegal aliens.  Reagan did it, it was supposed to be the last time, but it only resulted in more flooding our borders.

How many poorly educated low wage workers do we really need?  We need highly skilled immigrants with Engineering and Science degrees.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 24, 2013, 06:53:44 PM
Yankovich's snub to the EU and his own people will have consequences - WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on November 24, 2013, 10:13:58 PM
....

I said to give them temporary worker status and allow them 6 months in and 6 months out (some have said 9 months in and only 3 months out).  I am not a sadist, I know most are hard working human beings.  I am simply against awarding Citizenship to illegal aliens.  Reagan did it, it was supposed to be the last time, but it only resulted in more flooding our borders.

How many poorly educated low wage workers do we really need?  We need highly skilled immigrants with Engineering and Science degrees.

I know many doctors who immigrate from Mexico - always have, always will.

We had LEGAL GUEST WORKER PROGRAM THAT WORKED GREAT.

Until the socialist party (democrats) abolished the Brasero program in the 1960's ....

The brasero program worked great.  For US and for Mexicans.

But, now under the guise of illegal Mexicans being the problem, the State Department has imported millions of Muslims ....
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 12:21:21 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/world/europe/ukraine-protests.html?_r=0

Every Westerner of good will should stand with the Ukrainian people.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 02:02:20 PM
I am surprised more people haven't commented on this topic.  I wonder if it is because this is British board and the Brits go to Russia where as Canadians and Americans go to Ukraine. 

More news:  The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

http://www.youtube.com/v/NiT0zcDA9RU


The men terrorizing these protestors are not the local police, but the Berkat from Crimea.  This is a local police man.

http://www.youtube.com/v/BpuGRSpB1ZQ

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 02:20:30 PM
the Brits go to Russia where as Canadians and Americans go to Ukraine. 

Not true.

The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

No, the EU people should vote on who comes in, not the wannabees. I bet Ukraine would lose. They are culturally tied with Russia so leaning towards Russia makes sense.

Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Slumba on November 30, 2013, 02:28:55 PM
Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

They are all already here!  :chuckle:

Peter Mandelson, UK dirtbag extraordinaire, has nothing on the USA Federal govt in terms of perfidy re: immigration.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 02:31:02 PM
Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist? 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Mikeav8r on November 30, 2013, 02:54:19 PM
the Brits go to Russia where as Canadians and Americans go to Ukraine. 

Not true.  Agree.  I go to Russia as do many other Americans and Canadians.

The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

No, the EU people should vote on who comes in, not the wannabees. I bet Ukraine would lose. They are culturally tied with Russia so leaning towards Russia makes sense.

Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

Also agree.  The people should have a voice to decide to petition for entry, but it should be up to the EU to allow them in based on several criteria...
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Mikeav8r on November 30, 2013, 02:55:21 PM
Using your argument, why not let Mexico into the USA?

They are all already here!  :chuckle:  With hundreds, if not thousands, more each day...

Peter Mandelson, UK dirtbag extraordinaire, has nothing on the USA Federal govt in terms of perfidy re: immigration.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 03:11:01 PM
The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  The EU offered them associate membership.  The Yanokovich said he would sign the agreement but Putin bribed him and at the last minute, he declined.  You may not like the EU.  You may want to change the rules.  You may block their membership.  But to regard a Ukrainian on the same level as a Mexican is not only inaccurate but immoral.

We have debated on this forum and on your other one.  Have and defend your points with more intellectual honesty.  Pozhalista

Edited to add:
Regions members in the Rada quit the party and join the opposition.  President Janokovich could lose the Rada.
http://un.ua/eng/article/479327.html
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Slumba on November 30, 2013, 03:24:49 PM
  But to regard a Ukrainian on the same level as a Mexican is not only inaccurate but immoral.

What is the level of a Mexican, exactly?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 03:38:14 PM
What is the level of a Mexican, exactly?
I will get back to you after I consult my PUA manual of morality.  I tell you what.  I will answer your OFF TOPIC question in detail once you make your views known on the matter:

The President of Ukraine has beaten his own citizens in the street.  Over 30 arrested, 6 missing, 1 rumored dead.

I urge my fellow Americans to take up the cause:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V#thank-you=p

Manny, do you support beating people up that disagree with you and Putin?

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on November 30, 2013, 04:17:34 PM
Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist?

LT - thing is the EU isn't in any great shape to take onboard another liability that the Ukraine would be.

The UK will be renegotiating it's membership soon enough, immigration being a real strong issue here, the weaker member states are a real immigration problem, another problem state will not be tolerated in England, it's a real possibility if they joined we would quit, where would that leave the EU.

It seems to me, that the safest option for Ukraine is what is knows right now, the EU is a uncertain gamble, better the devil you know :)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Slumba on November 30, 2013, 04:25:58 PM
What is the level of a Mexican, exactly?
I will get back to you after I consult my PUA manual of morality.  I tell you what.  I will answer your OFF TOPIC question in detail once you make your views known on the matter:

The President of Ukraine has beaten his own citizens in the street.  Over 30 arrested, 6 missing, 1 rumored dead.

I urge my fellow Americans to take up the cause:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V#thank-you=p

Manny, do you support beating people up that disagree with you and Putin?

I agree it should not have happened. 

Given that drones, deployed illegally into countries that the USA has not declared war on, have killed many more innocents than 1, or even 7, why persist in the myth of America having some kind of moral authority? 

We haven't had a rightful claim to moral authority for what, 10+ years now?  Or do you still believe in the myth of WTC 7?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 05:07:54 PM
Mexicans are a wonderful people.  I'd rather have Mexicans than Muslims immigrate.  The EU has solved that problem with the expansion of the EU east rather than south.  I wouldnt mind having a North American Union.  But the druglords rule Mexico to feed lazy American addictions.

As for morals, one invariably speaks of religion and your views on the matter are well known and need no further investigation.

You can oppose membership without justifying the mauling of these Ukrainian patriots.  Or are you silent on that too?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 05:20:27 PM
Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist?

LT - thing is the EU isn't in any great shape to take onboard another liability that the Ukraine would be.

The UK will be renegotiating it's membership soon enough, immigration being a real strong issue here, the weaker member states are a real immigration problem, another problem state will not be tolerated in England, it's a real possibility if they joined we would quit, where would that leave the EU.

It seems to me, that the safest option for Ukraine is what is knows right now, the EU is a uncertain gamble, better the devil you know :)

That about sums it up.

LT, it is no secret that on the whole I am a Putin supporter. He is about the only world leader who has a pair.

He also takes the occasional moment from his day [or his office does] (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=19363.msg328310#msg328310) to intervene in minor issues; as I have noted before.  :P
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on November 30, 2013, 05:35:44 PM
Manny, are you speaking as a Euroskeptic or a Putin apologist?

LT - thing is the EU isn't in any great shape to take onboard another liability that the Ukraine would be.

The UK will be renegotiating it's membership soon enough, immigration being a real strong issue here, the weaker member states are a real immigration problem, another problem state will not be tolerated in England, it's a real possibility if they joined we would quit, where would that leave the EU.

It seems to me, that the safest option for Ukraine is what is knows right now, the EU is a uncertain gamble, better the devil you know :)

That about sums it up.

LT, it is no secret that on the whole I am a Putin supporter. He is about the only world leader who has a pair.

He also takes the occasional moment from his day [or his office does] (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=19363.msg328310#msg328310) to intervene in minor issues; as I have noted before.  :P

Putin is less out for war and more for peace than any of the other major world leaders, currently IMO. He's shown logic and solutions, something we have never given Russia credit for in the past.

Tables have turned, may it long continue.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 06:00:15 PM
Putin is less out for war and more for peace than any of the other major world leaders, currently IMO. He's shown logic and solutions, something we have never given Russia credit for in the past.

Tables have turned, may it long continue.

Agree completely.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that America was funding some of these protests in Kiev. As they did in Moscow with the anti-Putin ones.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 06:14:26 PM
Manny, if you have proof post it.  Manny, what would Obama gain by intervening?  Manny, do you support beating people up who disagree with you?

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 06:18:35 PM
LT, I wont get into your silly stuff or be drawn into silly side arguments.

I stated my view. You are free to disagree or debate.
Title: To deal or not to deal? Ukraine’s EU-Russia crossroads in facts and numbers
Post by: 2tallbill on November 30, 2013, 06:27:41 PM
To deal or not to deal? Ukraine’s EU-Russia crossroads in facts and numbers

EU Association agreement (AA)
Another round of talks between Ukraine and the EU is scheduled for March 2014, where Kiev may ultimately decide to sign in, according to the Ukrainian president’s advisor Andriy Honcharuk. This will be two months before Belarus, Russia, and Kazakhstan will have a document ready to sign onto their Eurasian Economic Union - the extended version of the Customs Union.

The terms set in the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area (DCFTA), where AA becomes as an integral part, advertise immediate economic benefits in reduced trade tariffs. Though the figures seem impressive, but they don't take into account the cost of lost trade with Russia and CIS countries or transition expenses.

- The agreement eliminates about 95 percent of customs duties. Non-tariff barriers will go down by 35 percent compared to 2004. The Free Trade Agreement, as outlined by the European Commission,   will save Ukrainian exporters about €487million annually.

- Currently Ukraine exports $17 billion in export goods to Europe and $16 billion to Russia. By signing with the EU, they may have to forfeit their entire Russian export sector, which Russia estimates will immediately cost Ukraine 35 billion euros.

- The auto industry won’t be immediately affected, but Ukraine will be given a "safeguard" on EU car imports. Ukraine imports 41,000 cars per year from the EU, about 13 percent of the market.

- The IMF recommended Ukraine raise gas tariffs for domestic consumers. Ukraine already pays $400 per 1000 cubic meters of gas, and a hike in prices would be domestically unpopular.

- In order to be up to trade standards, Ukraine would have to adopt 350 laws and the EU would need to draft over 200,000 pieces of legislation, a process both timely and costly.

- Ukraine would need to changes its competition laws, which would break certain cartels and monopolies, which may upset some of Ukraine’s more powerful oligarchs and force them to ‘clean’ their money.

- Everything down to minute details– like the type of screws used on road signs to the width of gauges on railway tracks, would have to be switched.
http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/

Eurasian Economic Community
Russia, Ukraine’s main source of energy, loans, and trade, wants to dissuade its geographical partner from making a "suicidal" move towards Europe and sacrifice the option of joining the Russian-led Customs Union, that by 2015 will be extended to the Eurasian Economic Union, after a number of other CIS members, like Armenia, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan join the club.

Here’s what Russia and the CIS offer.

- Sticking with Russia would help guarantee a safeguard over their massive $20 billion in loans at Russian state-banks Gazprombank, Sberbank, VTB, and VEB.

- Unlike the EU trade deal, membership in the Customs Union would include military cooperation.

- Membership in the EEU will unite economic, legal, military, and customs services with Russia.

- Russia decreased its net grain imports from Ukraine by 33.5 percent in the first half of 2013, according to the Ukrainian Grain Associating, but may boost imports if Ukraine joins the Customs Union.

- Ukraine may be able to negotiate better gas relations with Russia, its main energy source provider. Gazprom, Russia’s state-owned oil and gas giant, says Ukraine is overdue in a $1.3 billion gas bill.

read all about it here

http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on November 30, 2013, 06:29:19 PM

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?

It's not that simple, freedom of movement isn't something we want from any (pretty much)  EU states, certainly not Ukraine, we can't afford it, you should see what we have already, not to mention what's coming in the new year, it's hell, i have seen it first hand. Those who want wealth and those who have it don't integrate well quickly, if ever.

Crime in England is mainly from immigration, we don't need anymore problems.

They suck the life out of our health system, something we all have to pay for, it's free, good for us, but everyone who doesn't contribute wants it also, leaving those who do pay for it unable to use it. Friend of mine died last year due to that girl being shot by the Taliban, the doctors so excited by TV camera's they forgot about a young man with a head injury, he died, she lived. He paid, she didn't, go figure.

Free trade isn't a fair deal for Ukraine, they'd be fcuked over with the likes of Tesco and Asda taking all the local trade, everyone would become a poor employee and they would never know what an entrepreneur is.

I could go on !!!!

Timing just isn't right, and the EU hasn't the money to help them, England doesn't need more benefit scroungers.

I'd gladly accept the hot women though, but I assume the Ukraine people don't want selective entry  :o
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 06:40:12 PM

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?

It's not that simple, freedom of movement isn't something we want from any (pretty much)  EU states, certainly not Ukraine, we can't afford it, you should see what we have already, not to mention what's coming in the new year, it's hell, i have seen it first hand. Those who want wealth and those who have it don't integrate well quickly, if ever.

Crime in England is mainly from immigration, we don't need anymore problems.

They suck the life out of our health system, something we all have to pay for, it's free, good for us, but everyone who doesn't contribute wants it also, leaving those who do pay for it unable to use it. Friend of mine died last year due to that girl being shot by the Taliban, the doctors so excited by TV camera's they forgot about a young man with a head injury, he died, she lived. He paid, she didn't, go figure.

Free trade isn't a fair deal for Ukraine, they'd be fcuked over with the likes of Tesco and Asda taking all the local trade, everyone would become a poor employee and they would never know what an entrepreneur is.

I could go on !!!!

Timing just isn't right, and the EU hasn't the money to help them, England doesn't need more benefit scroungers.

I'd gladly accept the hot women though, but I assume the Ukraine people don't want selective entry  :o

Nothing there I can disagree with either.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on November 30, 2013, 06:57:41 PM
The people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.....  But to regard a Ukrainian on the same level as a Mexican is not only inaccurate but immoral.

....
http://un.ua/eng/article/479327.html

The PEOPLE of Ukraine do not want to join a GAY members alliance ... If you think they do, you HAVE NOT discussed this with them.

Some of the younger generation see the money in the EU, and watch the hollywood videos, and they think all Westerners are rich.  And they would like to be rich.  But, once you explain the Western value system, MOST do not want to see their country become like the west ....

Mexico?  A failed state?  No.  Just a terrible waste of NAFTA jobs going to the US of China.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on November 30, 2013, 07:12:11 PM
Putin is less out for war and more for peace than any of the other major world leaders, currently IMO. He's shown logic and solutions, something we have never given Russia credit for in the past.

Tables have turned, may it long continue.

Agree completely.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that America was funding some of these protests in Kiev. As they did in Moscow with the anti-Putin ones.

Nah, no oil in Ukraine, and certainly no gas.... it's the only thing that makes the US excited, gas, oil and war (yes us Brit's love it en all apparently!).

Let's be honest if Ukraine was an EU member state we'd have nothing to talk about, it'd be the end, I mean nobody goes russia!!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 07:34:54 PM

Ash, you love Ukraine.  You oppose a free trade deal?

It's not that simple, freedom of movement isn't something we want from any (pretty much)  EU states, certainly not Ukraine, we can't afford it, you should see what we have already, not to mention what's coming in the new year, it's hell, i have seen it first hand. Those who want wealth and those who have it don't integrate well quickly, if ever.

Crime in England is mainly from immigration, we don't need anymore problems.

They suck the life out of our health system, something we all have to pay for, it's free, good for us, but everyone who doesn't contribute wants it also, leaving those who do pay for it unable to use it. Friend of mine died last year due to that girl being shot by the Taliban, the doctors so excited by TV camera's they forgot about a young man with a head injury, he died, she lived. He paid, she didn't, go figure.

Free trade isn't a fair deal for Ukraine, they'd be fcuked over with the likes of Tesco and Asda taking all the local trade, everyone would become a poor employee and they would never know what an entrepreneur is.

I could go on !!!!

Timing just isn't right, and the EU hasn't the money to help them, England doesn't need more benefit scroungers.

I'd gladly accept the hot women though, but I assume the Ukraine people don't want selective entry  :o

Didn't Britain elect a Conservative government that would resolve these problems?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 07:38:12 PM
Nah, no oil in Ukraine, and certainly no gas.... it's the only thing that makes the US excited, gas, oil and war (yes us Brit's love it en all apparently!).

Do you really think Barack Obama cares about oil and gas?  If so, why does he oppose fraking and shale oil exploration, drilling in Anwar and on public lands?  Why does he oppose the keystone pipeline?

The only thing BHO is excited about is cocaine and boys.

Let's be honest if Ukraine was an EU member state we'd have nothing to talk about, it'd be the end, I mean nobody goes russia!!

completely agree
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 07:39:35 PM
LT, I wont get into your silly stuff or be drawn into silly side arguments.

I stated my view. You are free to disagree or debate.

They are rather simple questions Manny.  You can be a man or not.
Title: Re: To deal or not to deal? Ukraine’s EU-Russia crossroads in facts and numbers
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 07:51:21 PM

Here’s what Russia and the CIS offer.

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/11/30/1385815826849/Wounded-photographer-at-K-016.jpg)

- Sticking with Russia would help guarantee a safeguard over their massive $20 billion in loans at Russian state-banks Gazprombank, Sberbank, VTB, and VEB.
(http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/905230/1385799922000/large16x9/768/432/ukraine-protest.jpg)

- Unlike the EU trade deal, membership in the Customs Union would include military cooperation.

(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/131130104754-ukraine-protest-03-horizontal-gallery.jpg)

- Membership in the EEU will unite economic, legal, military, and customs services with Russia.

(http://media.themalaysianinsider.com/assets/uploads/resizer/ukraine_riot_police_EU-reuters_540_382_100.JPG)

- Russia decreased its net grain imports from Ukraine by 33.5 percent in the first half of 2013, according to the Ukrainian Grain Associating, but may boost imports if Ukraine joins the Customs Union.

(http://www.brecorder.com/images/2013/11/ukraine-protest-police.jpg)

- Ukraine may be able to negotiate better gas relations with Russia, its main energy source provider. Gazprom, Russia’s state-owned oil and gas giant, says Ukraine is overdue in a $1.3 billion gas bill.

read all about it here

http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/

(http://media.mwcradio.com/mimesis/2013-11/30/2013-11-30T064635Z_1_CBRE9AT0ITU00_RTROPTP_3_NEWS-US-UKRAINE-PROTEST_JPG_475x310_q85.jpg)

Who are you going to believe RT or your lying eyes?

This is a game of thrones now.  Putin is playing chess with Merkel, Cameron and Komorowski.  The US is AWOL (shoosh don't tell Manny.  He thinks George W. Bush is President.)  Putin has a lot more to loose.  He placed his bets on Viktor Janokovich - a man by all accounts regarded universally as less than weasel.  It is only a matter of time when Janokovich upsets Putin.  Then he will be alone.  He is already alone.

A psychological operator with the backing of his government and an expense account just has to bribe the right people.  The chief of Police, the military and enough Rada members to legitimate the new government.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on November 30, 2013, 08:10:40 PM
Putin seems to let the civilians RIOT.

YOUR President targets civilians .... http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/monthly-updates/ (http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/monthly-updates/) ....

Is it better to LIVE or DIE at the orders of an elitist President?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 08:11:16 PM
What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: sashathecat on November 30, 2013, 08:21:05 PM
Nah, no oil in Ukraine, and certainly no gas.... it's the only thing that makes the US excited, gas, oil and war (yes us Brit's love it en all apparently!).

Not gonna get into politics as it is not my bag, but they are starting to find large shale and undersea gas deposits in the Black Sea...

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/international/ukraine-chevron-sign-us/875080.html
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on November 30, 2013, 08:23:41 PM
You seem to feel that the police stopping violent rioters is EXTREME?

But, YOUR president targeting civilians is OK?

Which is worse?  Stopping violent protestors with medium force?  Or, killing civilians?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 08:23:48 PM
I did it.  You can too.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 08:24:18 PM
You are not making any sense . . .
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on November 30, 2013, 08:26:47 PM
I did it.  You can too.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V


We impose sanctions on IRAN and NORTH KOREA ....

How can you compare Ukraine with them?

You are making no sense .....
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 09:30:25 PM
I did it.  You can too.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V


We impose sanctions on IRAN and NORTH KOREA ....

How can you compare Ukraine with them?

You are making no sense .....

You're right.  You win
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Mikeav8r on November 30, 2013, 10:09:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/AS4bPgwizqc
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 12:32:44 AM
http://en.apa.az/xeber_what_happened_in_kiev_s_maidan__-__span__203506.html

Quote
My sister lives in Europe. We often visit her. When we see the life there, we understand how we have been ruining our life for years. It is high time to wake up. We have been asleep for years, but we have already awoken. We must integrate into Europe. If the current authorities don’t want it, they must resign. We will never return to the Soviet period!”

You are defending the Soviet Union. 

Tear down this wall
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 01:16:15 AM
Nah, no oil in Ukraine, and certainly no gas.... it's the only thing that makes the US excited, gas, oil and war (yes us Brit's love it en all apparently!).

Not gonna get into politics as it is not my bag, but they are starting to find large shale and undersea gas deposits in the Black Sea...

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/international/ukraine-chevron-sign-us/875080.html

Sasha is quite correct here. The oil and gas are primarily offshore in an area that's ownership was claimed by both Romania and Ukraine. It is in The Back Sea around Snake Island. The matter was settled in The International Court of Law in The Hague over ten years ago I guess. Ukraine won the most territory but Romania obtained the Island.

The problem with Ukraine gas and oil is there is no infrastructure to deliver and process the raw materials, but it is being worked on.

Chevron quite recently signed a mega deal to develop the shale fields. Shell has been drilling already for a couple years. This deposit extends in a band from in the Donetsk Oblast towards Kharkiv Oblasts. There are fields near the Carpathians. There have been very limited protests regarding the fracking process in Ukraine, but there have been some. Further Ukraine still is producing coal, but unfortunately it is inefficient at best. Also Ukraine for what it is worth is a large exporter of Uranium.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 01, 2013, 03:26:08 AM
I haven't seen it being reported in the West yet, well at least not over here, but I hear on the grapevine (early this morning) that Klitschko has been rallying support travelling around the major cities of Western Ukraine over the last few days, drumming up support and getting people mobilised and telling them to get to Kyiv to support the protests, he wants Yanukonvictvych to change his mind.

Apparently one local TV station has also been reporting this as fact, unusual as they usually do what they are told by Yanukonvictvych things are certainly happening over there.

More later!

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 06:33:47 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25176191

&

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25164990

From a female friend in Ukraine I also heard the same note as Chris mentioned about Vitali Klitschko. For what it is worth the Ukraine Parliament passed some ten days ago in a rush a bill to prevent Klitschko from running for the Presidency. 

Speaking on Skype with Special K she is returning to Kiev. She will have to more or less get from the bus station that she arrives at through the center to her apartment. I told her to be careful. She told she is Ukraine and knows how to get around.

She added love conquers all, I said I doubt the Ukraine politicians understand love. She said absolutely not, They understand love very well . . . that love of money and power.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on December 01, 2013, 07:42:05 AM
I haven't seen it being reported in the West yet, well at least not over here, but I hear on the grapevine (early this morning) that Klitschko has been rallying support travelling around the major cities of Western Ukraine over the last few days, drumming up support and getting people mobilised and telling them to get to Kyiv to support the protests, he wants Yanukonvych to change his mind.
This wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, he wants a European Ukraine not a Russian Ukraine, he's doing all he can in order to secure that for Ukraine. It's just rather unfortunate that he's no longer able to run for president, in theory anyway.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 01, 2013, 07:59:43 AM
I haven't seen it being reported in the West yet, well at least not over here, but I hear on the grapevine (early this morning) that Klitschko has been rallying support travelling around the major cities of Western Ukraine over the last few days, drumming up support and getting people mobilised and telling them to get to Kyiv to support the protests, he wants Yanukonvych to change his mind.
This wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, he wants a European Ukraine not a Russian Ukraine, he's doing all he can in order to secure that for Ukraine. It's just rather unfortunate that he's no longer able to run for president, in theory anyway.

After living in the West for so long he understands what the true situation is actually like over there, of course he knows that a European connection is better long term for Ukraine than a liaison with Russia.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Net_Lenka on December 01, 2013, 09:06:35 AM
I haven't seen it being reported in the West
After living in the West for so long he understands what the true situation is actually like over there, of course he knows that a European connection is better long term for Ukraine than a liaison with Russia.
Paradise would be even better place for living  (:).... it's just the ticket costs some more than EU demands for a pass to Europe BUt the cost dose not matter for the Ukraina, dose it? So why not strigh to paraise?

Could any experts in Ukraina reminde me - what did they( Ukraininas) do under Yushchenko ruling?  Was it again "Russian hand" which hold him by his wide Ukraininas pants preventing from beeing a part of Civilised Europe?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 09:31:51 AM
OK not quite paradise in fact just the opposite hell.

Two soldiers one an American the other a Russian died at the same moment.

They were not invited to heaven but at the entrance to hell they were offered a choice of whether they would have a Russian Hell or an American Hell. The American thought about it for a moment and choose the American version. He was to eat each day a shovel full of shit. The Russian choose his Hell and he also was to consume a shovel of shit per day.

A year or so along they meet each other, The Russian asks about the Hell of his fellow soldier who sighs well after a while he says you sort of get used to the taste, and what about yours ask the Yank? Well you know it is like Russia some days no shovel and other days no shit.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on December 01, 2013, 09:35:27 AM
Well it would appear that Ukraine is going down the road yet again to revolution, it remains to be seen whether anything will come of this round, I personally doubt it will but Ukraine are most certainly going down that road again (:)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 01, 2013, 09:38:31 AM
How is an anti-family agenda better for a country than a pro-family based culture?

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 10:40:59 AM

Some good posts on this page. 

That said, some amongst the wife hunter class want these lands to stay poor and oppressed.  They do not care by what methods the post-Stalinists employ.  They are willing allies of the post-Stalinists like Yanokonvict and Putin.

To these "people," I say, may you reap what you sow.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Slumba on December 01, 2013, 11:11:31 AM

Some good posts on this page. 

That said, some amongst the wife hunter class want these lands to stay poor and oppressed.  They do not care by what methods the post-Stalinists employ.  They are willing allies of the post-Stalinists like Yanokonvict and Putin.

To these "people," I say, may you reap what you sow.

Your rather poor attempt at sneering at other MOB'ers, still won't vault you into the "senior member" category.  :chuckle:  tiphat
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on December 01, 2013, 11:36:55 AM
That said, some amongst the wife hunter class want these lands to stay poor and oppressed.  They do not care by what methods the post-Stalinists employ.  They are willing allies of the post-Stalinists like Yanokonvict and Putin.

To these "people," I say, may you reap what you sow.
Who wants a poor oppressed wife? :D

I think it's you that wants that, I haven't seen anyone suggest that they're looking in Ukraine because the country is a cesspit.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 11:49:02 AM

Who wants a poor oppressed wife? :D

I think it's you that wants that, I haven't seen anyone suggest that they're looking in Ukraine because the country is a cesspit.

You are less cynical than I am.  If that is the case, then I withdraw my statement.

Update:  Protestors are moving or have toppled Lenin's statue:  https://twitter.com/PzFeed/status/407221211153051648/photo/1

There will be a Revolution in Ukraine
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on December 01, 2013, 12:22:56 PM
There will be a Revolution in Ukraine.
I doubt there will be a full blown revolution in Ukraine, it won't happen anytime soon, it'll be crushed before it begins.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 12:29:20 PM

I doubt there will be a full blown revolution in Ukraine, it won't happen anytime soon, it'll be crushed before it begins.

Lenin statue is under attack.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ig2tjGfoS5M&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 01, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
LT - I like the Ukraine, I understand why they want to join the EU, but what's going on demonstrates just why we don't want them to join.

The country is population wise same as England, but it's economy is far, far, far behind, perhaps in 10 years time they might be in a better position to join but right now if we opened the doors they'd be floods of people leaving under the freedom of movement, which other economies such as England's just could not sustain.

Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.

I certainly don't want to pay anymore tax, just as I don't want anymore pick pockets, house break-ins, uninsured motorists, murders, rapes, gangs rooming the streets and whatever else comes with it.

Just like I don't believe in global aid, there's far too many poor homeless people here in England, charity starts at home, once your house is in order then look to expand abroad, we're far off that.  :sick0012:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 01, 2013, 01:47:17 PM
There will be a Revolution in Ukraine.
I doubt there will be a full blown revolution in Ukraine, it won't happen anytime soon, it'll be crushed before it begins.

Depends.

If the State Department (CIA) funds it like they did the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, it might become another failed state.

Seems an awful lot of Westerners want Ukraine to fail no matter what the cost ....
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 01, 2013, 01:49:06 PM
LT - I like the Ukraine, I understand why they want to join the EU, but what's going on demonstrates just why we don't want them to join.

The country is population wise same as England, but it's economy is far, far, far behind, perhaps in 10 years time they might be in a better position to join but right now if we opened the doors they'd be floods of people leaving under the freedom of movement, which other economies such as England's just could not sustain.

Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.

I certainly don't want to pay anymore tax, just as I don't want anymore pick pockets, house break-ins, uninsured motorists, murders, rapes, gangs rooming the streets and whatever else comes with it.

Just like I don't believe in global aid, there's far too many poor homeless people here in England, charity starts at home, once your house is in order then look to expand abroad, we're far off that.  :sick0012:

That is not Ukraine in my eyes .... But, I am not a Brit living with the consequences of bringing in millions of Muslims.

Wait, I am an American living with those same consequences .... just a better view of Ukraine ....
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 01, 2013, 02:14:44 PM
LT - I like the Ukraine, I understand why they want to join the EU, but what's going on demonstrates just why we don't want them to join.

The country is population wise same as England, but it's economy is far, far, far behind, perhaps in 10 years time they might be in a better position to join but right now if we opened the doors they'd be floods of people leaving under the freedom of movement, which other economies such as England's just could not sustain.

Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.

I certainly don't want to pay anymore tax, just as I don't want anymore pick pockets, house break-ins, uninsured motorists, murders, rapes, gangs rooming the streets and whatever else comes with it.

Just like I don't believe in global aid, there's far too many poor homeless people here in England, charity starts at home, once your house is in order then look to expand abroad, we're far off that.  :sick0012:

That is not Ukraine in my eyes .... But, I am not a Brit living with the consequences of bringing in millions of Muslims.

Wait, I am an American living with those same consequences .... just a better view of Ukraine ....

Ha ha! Should see the Romanians we have now, we have a German market in Birmingham (not really german but we're suckers for a good sales pitch!) the romanians find us english, well the ones who think they are english now, easy pickings to take wallets, phones etc. It's quite shocking.

That is work to them BTW, full time, once caught nothing happens, nothing, they're back on the street within an hour or two.

I witnessed one being caught not so long ago, he got a kick up the bottom, one of the funniest things I've ever seen, the kicker nearly fell on his arse, brilliant.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 02:25:27 PM
LT - I like the Ukraine, I understand why they want to join the EU, but what's going on demonstrates just why we don't want them to join.

The country is population wise same as England, but it's economy is far, far, far behind, perhaps in 10 years time they might be in a better position to join but right now if we opened the doors they'd be floods of people leaving under the freedom of movement, which other economies such as England's just could not sustain.

Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.

I certainly don't want to pay anymore tax, just as I don't want anymore pick pockets, house break-ins, uninsured motorists, murders, rapes, gangs rooming the streets and whatever else comes with it.

Just like I don't believe in global aid, there's far too many poor homeless people here in England, charity starts at home, once your house is in order then look to expand abroad, we're far off that.  :sick0012:

If you could get rid of the Nannystatists in Britain, would you support free trade with Ukraine? 

Do you support the tactics Yanokonvict, Putin and his foriegn allies are using against the young people?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 01, 2013, 02:39:26 PM
LT - I like the Ukraine, I understand why they want to join the EU, but what's going on demonstrates just why we don't want them to join.

The country is population wise same as England, but it's economy is far, far, far behind, perhaps in 10 years time they might be in a better position to join but right now if we opened the doors they'd be floods of people leaving under the freedom of movement, which other economies such as England's just could not sustain.

Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.

I certainly don't want to pay anymore tax, just as I don't want anymore pick pockets, house break-ins, uninsured motorists, murders, rapes, gangs rooming the streets and whatever else comes with it.

Just like I don't believe in global aid, there's far too many poor homeless people here in England, charity starts at home, once your house is in order then look to expand abroad, we're far off that.  :sick0012:

If you could get rid of the Nannystatists in Britain, would you support free trade with Ukraine? 

Do you support the tactics Yanokonvict, Putin and his foriegn allies are using against the young people?

I don't think there's anything for us to gain by having them as members, purely from a financial point of view it would be a liability, one we can't afford.

Sure they would gain a lot, also loose an awful lot but they wouldn't understand that, but it's not about being nice, it's about money from both sides.

If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 02:58:10 PM
There will be a Revolution in Ukraine.
I doubt there will be a full blown revolution in Ukraine, it won't happen anytime soon, it'll be crushed before it begins.

This is my opinion as well.

Well it would appear that Ukraine is going down the road yet again to revolution, it remains to be seen whether anything will come of this round, I personally doubt it will but Ukraine are most certainly going down that road again (:)

As I do.

The reality the outrage that occurred that allowed the Orange Revolution to happen and it was from North to South and East to West is not present. The population was appalled by the voting fraud. Even the ministers of V. Yanukovych defied him, such as letting the trains bring even more protesters to Kiev. This is not happening. The people are exhausted and disgusted by the grievous fraud. They are dismayed by the personal ambition of the "elected" politicians.

Most are concerned with surviving. The East of Ukraine is accepting the promises and statements of a better future with a closer union with Russia. This region is the political support of Yankovych. But it is in fact this region that seems more economically depressed. The Western regions have found ways to trade with Poland & Slovenia and the rest of Europe and do so ignoring directives from Kiev.

The reality is that the ambition and hope for a better future is not there.

If the elected officials of the Orange Revolution had spent less time on petty battles and enriching there circles of friends and more time of forging closer relationships with regions to the West this discussion would not be occurring. For better or worse Ukraine has V. Yanukovych and he has taken the semi hard promises of Russia and his own political survival as the most important reasons not to sign.


Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.


In fact if Ukraine was seen as a more honest place to do business than perhaps this would have helped the cause of Ukraine. But it is unfortunately the country is not know for its transparency in the judiciary, its honesty of the members of police and prosecution and the respects for human rights.

This amounts to a BIG FAIL.

I get tired of reading from German, Dutch, French and Austrian business people and politicians saying there is so much potential in Ukraine. They are not going to make the investments needed until there is a sense a fairness in the game.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on December 01, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
Lenin statue is under attack.
And? Do you know how many times Trafalgar Square is under attack with people getting on the statues or throwing shit at them? An 'attack' as you put it, doesn't mean anything.
Depends.

If the State Department (CIA) funds it like they did the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, it might become another failed state.

Seems an awful lot of Westerners want Ukraine to fail no matter what the cost...
Meh, who cares at the end of the day, will only end with more Russian influence in the country :chuckle:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 03:12:52 PM
Tear down this wall

LT, Just so you understand the above is a qoute from a former President of the United States directed to the General Secretary of the Soviet Union. It referred to the division of Germany during the Cold War. There is not division as such in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 04:11:47 PM
Lenin statue is under attack.
And? Do you know how many times Trafalgar Square is under attack with people getting on the statues or throwing shit at them? An 'attack' as you put it, doesn't mean anything.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ig2tjGfoS5M

The locals say the police have recaptured the statue.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 04:12:41 PM
Tear down this [trade] wall

LT, Just so you understand the above is a qoute from a former President of the United States directed to the General Secretary of the Soviet Union. It referred to the division of Germany during the Cold War. There is not division as such in Ukraine.

http://www.youtube.com/v/xhbzhrfY1Lo
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 04:16:39 PM
There will be a Revolution in Ukraine.
I doubt there will be a full blown revolution in Ukraine, it won't happen anytime soon, it'll be crushed before it begins.

This is my opinion as well.

Well it would appear that Ukraine is going down the road yet again to revolution, it remains to be seen whether anything will come of this round, I personally doubt it will but Ukraine are most certainly going down that road again (:)

As I do.

The reality the outrage that occurred that allowed the Orange Revolution to happen and it was from North to South and East to West is not present. The population was appalled by the voting fraud. Even the ministers of V. Yanukovych defied him, such as letting the trains bring even more protesters to Kiev. This is not happening. The people are exhausted and disgusted by the grievous fraud. They are dismayed by the personal ambition of the "elected" politicians.

Most are concerned with surviving. The East of Ukraine is accepting the promises and statements of a better future with a closer union with Russia. This region is the political support of Yankovych. But it is in fact this region that seems more economically depressed. The Western regions have found ways to trade with Poland & Slovenia and the rest of Europe and do so ignoring directives from Kiev.

The reality is that the ambition and hope for a better future is not there.

If the elected officials of the Orange Revolution had spent less time on petty battles and enriching there circles of friends and more time of forging closer relationships with regions to the West this discussion would not be occurring. For better or worse Ukraine has V. Yanukovych and he has taken the semi hard promises of Russia and his own political survival as the most important reasons not to sign.


Look outside of Kiev, there lies the economic problems, plus then there's corruption issues.


In fact if Ukraine was seen as a more honest place to do business than perhaps this would have helped the cause of Ukraine. But it is unfortunately the country is not know for its transparency in the judiciary, its honesty of the members of police and prosecution and the respects for human rights.

This amounts to a BIG FAIL.

I get tired of reading from German, Dutch, French and Austrian business people and politicians saying there is so much potential in Ukraine. They are not going to make the investments needed until there is a sense a fairness in the game.

The presence of Evil offers a very simple question.  "Do you agree?"

http://www.youtube.com/v/8eflRkjecks
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 04:22:50 PM
This photo was taken in Rivne (Rovno) this afternoon. Perhaps remarkable is there are virtually no political party flags present.

(http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af275/avhdb/image_zpsa8c47db8.jpeg) (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/avhdb/media/image_zpsa8c47db8.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 04:27:14 PM
This photo was taken in Rivne (Rovno) this afternoon. Perhaps remarkable is there are virtually no political party flags present.

(http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af275/avhdb/image_zpsa8c47db8.jpeg) (http://s1015.photobucket.com/user/avhdb/media/image_zpsa8c47db8.jpeg.html)

except for the EU flag  (:)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on December 01, 2013, 04:32:35 PM
Tear down this [trade] wall

LT, Just so you understand the above is a qoute from a former President of the United States directed to the General Secretary of the Soviet Union. It referred to the division of Germany during the Cold War. There is not division as such in Ukraine.

http://www.youtube.com/v/xhbzhrfY1Lo

These Kiev, Ukraine protestors have more courage than any American protestors.  I suspect if an American protestor drove a bulldozer towards Capitol police they would either be shot and killed (as was a lady recently) or put in prison for 20 years to life for "terrorism".  There are limits to our freedoms in the "land of the free and home of the brave".
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on December 01, 2013, 04:36:45 PM
If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!

That is true. Let Tesco and Wal-Mart loose over there and they can kiss goodbye to any local chains. Even more money will be exported.

I would support small business in Ukraine trading with the EU to import money, but to do that they need a postal system that works faster and probably Paypal and EU bank co-operation.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 01, 2013, 05:22:17 PM
If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!

That is true. Let Tesco and Wal-Mart loose over there and they can kiss goodbye to any local chains. Even more money will be exported.

I would support small business in Ukraine trading with the EU to import money, but to do that they need a postal system that works faster and probably Paypal and EU bank co-operation.

And these large corporates don't pay any tax, that's the land of the free for you, the poor pay, the rich don't. Google as example, although it's been proven transactions have taken place in UK still don't pay any tax, those who are challenged make a contribution, not what's actually due. Prosecute them, not a chance.

Thing with Ukraine if it had any aspirations would use it's workforce to be the manufacturing arm of Europe, it could generate a huge amount of employment, the whole of Europe as it's customer base, China would have serious competition, cheaper export costs and a much quicker delivery time. Unfortunately nobody wants to start from the bottom and work up.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 05:54:48 PM
These Kiev, Ukraine protestors have more courage than any American protestors.  I suspect if an American protestor drove a bulldozer towards Capitol police they would either be shot and killed (as was a lady recently) or put in prison for 20 years to life for "terrorism".  There are limits to our freedoms in the "land of the free and home of the brave".

agree


It's disgusting isn't it? 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 01, 2013, 07:15:19 PM
If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!

That is true. Let Tesco and Wal-Mart loose over there and they can kiss goodbye to any local chains. Even more money will be exported.

I would support small business in Ukraine trading with the EU to import money, but to do that they need a postal system that works faster and probably Paypal and EU bank co-operation.

And these large corporates don't pay any tax, that's the land of the free for you, the poor pay, the rich don't. Google as example, although it's been proven transactions have taken place in UK still don't pay any tax, those who are challenged make a contribution, not what's actually due. Prosecute them, not a chance.

Thing with Ukraine if it had any aspirations would use it's workforce to be the manufacturing arm of Europe, it could generate a huge amount of employment, the whole of Europe as it's customer base, China would have serious competition, cheaper export costs and a much quicker delivery time. Unfortunately nobody wants to start from the bottom and work up.

I do.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 01, 2013, 07:41:48 PM
If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!

That is true. Let Tesco and Wal-Mart loose over there and they can kiss goodbye to any local chains. Even more money will be exported.

I would support small business in Ukraine trading with the EU to import money, but to do that they need a postal system that works faster and probably Paypal and EU bank co-operation.

It is highly unlikely that PRIVAT bank is going to let there monopoly position slip away to free commerce. So you will not see Pay-Pal any time soon. Both Western Union and Money Gram pay a fee to PRIVAT bank for each transaction as does anyone who uses there Pin Pass or Credit Card in Ukraine.

The problem a firm such as Wal-Mart would have is to pay the bribes to operate in Ukraine and it is American owned. It is not for fear of competition that IKEA is not operating there they tried to build a store in Odessa and at a certain point said enough of all the shake downs and under table payments. It was at the same time that a new store in Russia had the electricity turned off for some "problem".

There are some Ukraine self employed types who make a run to Poland purchase the IKEA flat packs and reassemble them in your home for a reasonable fee I understand.

I do believe the Ukraine population would be happy to work and compete with even China but there politician's have prevented this in large degrees. On the other side Ukraine had a decent garment industry, there is one story that they received development help from The United States but when the exports grew beyond a certain amount there were extra taxes for the said product to The United States.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 07:55:34 PM
FWIW, America has a trade surplus with Ukraine
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: RichyRich on December 01, 2013, 08:43:36 PM
Apparently in Lvov/Lviv, there will be a general strike by the authorities which will take place today (Monday)... not sure if I read it right but that appears to be what's happening, if that is indeed the case then I feel that perhaps this will be a revolution rather than just riots, hopefully it'll work out better this time.

Also Vitali Klitschko of Udar was heckled when asking protestors to go home to spare bloodshed, I hope he achieves his aims of becoming president, I feel that he will get the most done in terms of the greater Ukrainian good although Russia will hate him :chuckle:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 08:50:39 PM
Lviv's mayor promised no violence to any protestor

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/lviv-mayor-says-no-force-will-be-used-against-lviv-protesters-332710.html
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 02, 2013, 03:00:11 AM
http://news.liga.net/video/politics/933684-na_koleni_mraz_video_izbieniya_berkutom_lyudey_na_bankovoy.htm

It seems to be a wait and lets see what happens next moment in Kiev.

As I understand the article that a peaceful march was disrupted and there were numerous brutal beatings including journalists by the "police".

From the article some of the replies are quite interesting.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 02, 2013, 03:20:37 AM
There were protests in most of the major cities of WU over the weekend, my BiL attended one in Chernivtsi. Not sure if they are going on during the week, will no doubt find out later.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on December 02, 2013, 03:44:22 AM
If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!

That is true. Let Tesco and Wal-Mart loose over there and they can kiss goodbye to any local chains. Even more money will be exported.

Back in the early 90's the Ukrainians made a choice that they'd not 'liberalise' their economy so that foreign entities could enter Ukraine and take it over. This meant supporting inefficient industry sectors and refusing inward investment. Undoubtedly this has reduced the rate at which people's living standards have increased.

The choice was not easy to make because most countries made a different choice and were 'rewarded' for doing so. When I was studying the Ukrainian economy I was concentrated upon the sugar and grain markets but what I learned seemed to apply across the board. In the long term it is a winning strategy for a country to maintain its own industries rather than sell them out. Had Ukraine given unfettered access to the sugar refining industry then it is almost certain that it would have been bought and closed down because the major world stakeholders had excess capacity. A short term gain in national revenue would have been counteracted by a long term reduction due to the industry sector disappearing.

By contrast, in Estonia the government enabled foreign investment and as a ministerial adviser here told me years ago, those same investors were now reducing the ability of Estonian businesses to compete internationally. For example, most cheese production is now owned by Finnish businesses. Go to Finland and you will not find Estonian cheese. The companies are not allowed to export to Finland - yet previously they did. Another example, at the time I was researching this stuff Estonian bakery products were much cheaper than their Finnish counterparts. I was able to find ready buyers in Finland for such products. When we got to the point of signing purchase agreements with out chosen supplier we were told that any contract we signed would forbid the export of the product to Finland, the market of the Estonian baker's owner.

This ownership by outsiders of manufacturing capacity gave Estonia a boost in living standards but then became a dead weight upon the economy. The type of agreements forced by foreign owned suppliers are illegal under EU law but very hard to countervail.

In Ukraine not all businesses in all niches are viable but history will almost certainly show that the policies of governments since independence have been sensible, no matter how much they have been blackened by those with an interest in taking over those business and industry sectors.

Opening up markets to the EU as would be required with any kind of association treaty could be very damaging for the longer term success of the country. Russia and the CIS on the other hand seem to have much less interest in such activities. The problem is that it is easy to spin, for the benefit of the citizenry that the immediate benefits of EU association are great but much harder to tell people of the reality behind the smiley mask.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 02, 2013, 06:32:53 AM
Andrew makes an interesting point.

In some areas Ukraine can compete internationally but one wonders if there government "supports" were removed if this would continue so. I am referring to raw metal production and pipe production.

Regarding farming it is a complicated matter. The greatest asset of Ukraine is it's farmland. I am not aware of Ukraine producing in great quantities sugar beets. This crop is still heavily subsidized in Western Europe, with the farmers of Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and France benefiting from this. If the EU subsidizes were to be removed I am confident French farmers would start to sounding allot more English with there views about Brussels.

Ukraine has a good memory regarding the collectivization of the farmlands in the Soviet Union period. The government has made it very difficult for foreign agriculture concerns to enter the Ukraine market and own or control farm lands. Further concerns such as Raiffeisen* and to a smaller extent the Rabo bank which are in fact banks for farmers and not true banks in the Anglo-American definition have patiently waited and waited and hoped. Corporate farming firms are for all purposes not present in Ukraine and firms such as Monsanto and DuPont have comparable to the farmed land small operations in Ukraine.

Av

*Raiffeisen bank has been frequently accused of money laundrying. Journalists have published articles about this banks practices in the former Soviet Union that are not flattering.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 02, 2013, 09:45:20 AM

....


Ukraine has a good memory regarding the collectivization of the farmlands in the Soviet Union period. The government has made it very difficult for foreign agriculture concerns to enter the Ukraine market and own or control farm lands. Further concerns such as Raiffeisen* and to a smaller extent the Rabo bank which are in fact banks for farmers and not true banks in the Anglo-American definition have patiently waited and waited and hoped. Corporate farming firms are for all purposes not present in Ukraine and firms such as Monsanto and DuPont have comparable to the farmed land small operations in Ukraine.

Av

*Raiffeisen bank has been frequently accused of money laundrying. Journalists have published articles about this banks practices in the former Soviet Union that are not flattering.


 :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 02, 2013, 09:50:24 AM
I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on December 02, 2013, 09:59:02 AM
I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.

Neither do I, but the company was leasing the land, yes? The government were very keen to avoid loss of the land to foreign entities which is why agricultural lands sales to foreign entities were banned. The British firm were doing what companies moving into China did. Invested money and made technology transfers in order to benefit from low resource costs. The profits that accrue from enhanced productivity due to technology and management input can be very worthwhile, that is, in truth, what makes investing in low labour cost economies worthwhile - almost no benefit unless the association increases productivity.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 02, 2013, 10:03:15 AM
I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.


Chris,

It is nice to read that someone actually knows something about Ukraine ....

wayne
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 02, 2013, 10:08:20 AM

I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.

Neither do I, but the company was leasing the land, yes?

Yes!

The government were very keen to avoid loss of the land to foreign entities which is why agricultural lands sales to foreign entities were banned. The British firm were doing what companies moving into China did. Invested money and made technology transfers in order to benefit from low resource costs.

Yes they were keen on that and as you say why sales to foreignors were banned

The profits that accrue from enhanced productivity due to technology and management input can be very worthwhile, that is, in truth, what makes investing in low labour cost economies worthwhile - almost no benefit unless the association increases productivity.

Increased productivity is not hard when you compare what they are competing with, but as you rightly say, its what has to happen to make it worthwhile.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 02, 2013, 10:10:44 AM
I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.


Chris,

It is nice to read that someone actually knows something about Ukraine ....

wayne

Well when one spends a lot of time somewhere, and they take an interest, they usually pick up on stuff, unless they are completely ignorant/oblivious to what's happening around them that is.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on December 02, 2013, 11:32:30 AM
Productivity comes from three factors:
1) Resource quality
2) Technology
3) Management

Ukraine has very fertile land, historically Ukraine's black earth was the region's breadbasket and so provides excellent resource capability.

Technology inputs were very poor. Not that people knew nothing or were stupid but lack of money and access to credit meant that technology and infrastructure could not be improved.

Modern management from the UK where we are very efficient in agriculture synergises the above factors.

The real concern of the government was that if land was sold that in many cases it would be taken out of production in order to maintain markets in other countries. In addition there was genuine concern that the current landowners the former collective workers might end up selling out their land and end up becoming only workers on other people's land. The organisation of land and its production is quite an interesting topic in itself.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: sashathecat on December 02, 2013, 11:46:42 AM
I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.

Landkom was bought out by Swedish company Alpcot Agro which controls vast tracts in Russia and Ukraine.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Chris on December 02, 2013, 11:56:30 AM
I wrote a bit on farming in Ukraine back in 2009 (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6541.msg92180#msg92180), and a British Company that was doing well over there, not sure what the situation is right now though.

Landkom was bought out by Swedish company Alpcot Agro which controls vast tracts in Russia and Ukraine.

I suppose they were ripe for it! Landkom's success was to negotiate thousands of lease deals to put together huge new farms, they were also helping local hospitals, which in turn gained them more community support.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 02, 2013, 03:08:29 PM
Is it just me, or are some people missing a point or two here? Or is it me?!

Membership to the EU means more than a little free trade, full membership will mean an awful lot more to the average Ukrainian, let me note some below, perhaps anyone with a greater knowledge could correct me!!

- Fags would go up in price significantly in order to have full membership, no more £1 a packet! £5-8 is reasonable
- Health and safety be implemented, red tape, lots of it in reality
- Chains of shops will disappear overnight unable to compete with the incoming groups who will not contribute in anyway to local taxes
- no longer can a firm change it's own light bulb
- certificates for all electrical equipment, yes even your kettle each and every year (employers only)
- disabled parking spaces, hundreds of them
- human rights!
- Limited corporate revenue as it'll be taken offshore
- clampdown on cash transactions, every large transaction needs be accounted and investigated, you can't pay cash or take cash in large amounts from your bank without a good reason, yes it's true.
- Labour workers (plumbers, electricians etc) need be qualified, registered and take regular tests, i.e more tax
- Someone falls over in the street, someone will pay financially
- The list goes on!!!

More red tape BS than you could possibly imagine, whilst your small firms get to grips with it the big boys would already be exploiting your market place with higher corruption you could never imagine possible.

Not to mention taxes, higher gas and electricity bills.

Any completive edge that they might have had with low labour costs would be negated by higher red tape?

My opinion is Ukraine can only see the positives, maybe i'm wrong? Or do these problems exist in Ukraine now?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Slumba on December 02, 2013, 03:20:51 PM
Is it just me, or are some people missing a point or two here? Or is it me?!

Membership to the EU means more than a little free trade, full membership will mean an awful lot more to the average Ukrainian, let me note some below, perhaps anyone with a greater knowledge could correct me!!

Assume that a smooth-handed , apple-cheeked and baby-faced  Brussels man shows up in one of the grimier farming areas and starts lecturing the locals about how they need to do tests for fertilizer runoff from their farms... what do you think will happen to him?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 02, 2013, 03:28:25 PM
Is it just me, or are some people missing a point or two here? Or is it me?!

Membership to the EU means more than a little free trade, full membership will mean an awful lot more to the average Ukrainian, let me note some below, perhaps anyone with a greater knowledge could correct me!!

Assume that a smooth-handed , apple-cheeked and baby-faced  Brussels man shows up in one of the grimier farming areas and starts lecturing the locals about how they need to do tests for fertilizer runoff from their farms... what do you think will happen to him?

Ha ha!! Can you imagine them being told that's not a strawberry... it's the wrong shape!!!

Yes a strawberry looks like this, but it doesn't taste of strawberry any longer!

I'm not so sure who's got it right or wrong, things certainly taste a lot better in the FSU, but don't look the same.  :-X
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on December 02, 2013, 04:16:01 PM
Is it just me, or are some people missing a point or two here? Or is it me?!

Membership to the EU means more than a little free trade, full membership will mean an awful lot more to the average Ukrainian, let me note some below, perhaps anyone with a greater knowledge could correct me!!

Assume that a smooth-handed , apple-cheeked and baby-faced  Brussels man shows up in one of the grimier farming areas and starts lecturing the locals about how they need to do tests for fertilizer runoff from their farms... what do you think will happen to him?

They said that about the Baltics. They changed. The EU wore them down with promises of roads, infrastructure and a whole new gravy train for local politicians to jump on.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on December 02, 2013, 05:02:26 PM
If I was a Ukrainian I wouldn't want free trade, they have no idea what our big businesses will do to them!!

That is true. Let Tesco and Wal-Mart loose over there and they can kiss goodbye to any local chains. Even more money will be exported.

I would support small business in Ukraine trading with the EU to import money, but to do that they need a postal system that works faster and probably Paypal and EU bank co-operation.

And these large corporates don't pay any tax, that's the land of the free for you, the poor pay, the rich don't. Google as example, although it's been proven transactions have taken place in UK still don't pay any tax, those who are challenged make a contribution, not what's actually due. Prosecute them, not a chance.

Thing with Ukraine if it had any aspirations would use it's workforce to be the manufacturing arm of Europe, it could generate a huge amount of employment, the whole of Europe as it's customer base, China would have serious competition, cheaper export costs and a much quicker delivery time. Unfortunately nobody wants to start from the bottom and work up.

I recently saw a black Hugo Boss peacoat at Macy's which was made in Ukraine (it was fairly expensive) and several months prior to that I noticed some Lowe Italian brand hiking boots at REI which were actually made in Ukraine (again fairly expensive).
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: el_guero on December 02, 2013, 09:08:34 PM
Is it just me, or are some people missing a point or two here? Or is it me?!

Membership to the EU means more than a little free trade, full membership will mean an awful lot more to the average Ukrainian, let me note some below, perhaps anyone with a greater knowledge could correct me!!

Assume that a smooth-handed , apple-cheeked and baby-faced  Brussels man shows up in one of the grimier farming areas and starts lecturing the locals about how they need to do tests for fertilizer runoff from their farms... what do you think will happen to him?

Ha ha!! Can you imagine them being told that's not a strawberry... it's the wrong shape!!!

Yes a strawberry looks like this, but it doesn't taste of strawberry any longer!

I'm not so sure who's got it right or wrong, things certainly taste a lot better in the FSU, but don't look the same.  :-X



One of the nice things about Ukraine .... the food is real, not artificial ....
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: redroo on December 03, 2013, 07:17:43 PM
can we get back to the point this was a TRADE AGREEMENT, not full membership to the EU, that was being negotiated.
Ukraine would be decades away from being able to join the EU, and that would be AFTER they had implemented western type "rules". The ruling elite would have to clean up their money and practices for starters.....how long do you think that might take?  :dh:

I stand with LT in my disgust at the violence directed towards (mostly) peaceful protest. Let me tell you if some imported "russian" goon started beating me I would drive a bulldozer at them also. I hope Putin is watching and getting just a little nervous at what his bullying has set off?

Oh, and I am another that enjoys the taste of berries and tomato's over there compared to the GM type crap we have to eat in the west
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Barbossa on December 03, 2013, 08:14:57 PM
They said that about the Baltics. They changed. The EU wore them down with promises of roads, infrastructure and a whole new gravy train for local politicians to jump on.

Okay, I caught that Manny.  I just can't believe it is coming from you.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 03, 2013, 08:23:50 PM
Kudos Red,

The West has a two prong approach to this crisis.  The Swedes and the Poles stand with the opposition.  The US wants to negotiate with the current regime.  One of the defecting Regionnaires (Inna Bohoslovska) said (in an interview with The Kyiv Post) that this is plot by Putin to get Crimea and seize Eastern Ukraine even though Yanokovych is loosing support in the Donbass and 100 members of his 225 governing coalition did not vote for his government in the first test vote to ditch Azarov and  Yanokovych.  People on this board and in the sister board disparage the Orange Revolution but Yanokovych bludgeon three times more people than Kuchma - to Kuchma's credit.  In Yanokovych's defense, Bohoslovska thinks that Yanokovych is the cat's paw of Putin and that Putin is puppeteering through Viktor Medvedchuk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Medvedchuk

This could go sideways in so many ways.  But if Putin botches this, he will give his enemies a blue print to get rid of him.  If he wins, it will be in no large part because of the incompetency of our State Department.  Ambassador Dan Brooks Baer and his husband is chairing a meeting of the Organization for the Security and Cooperation of Europe.  The Poles cite the Guardian in boycotting the event.  Our own Ambassador Geoff Pyatt agrees with the Washington Post in tweeting against revolution.  John Kerry is in Moldava snubbing Ukraine.  In his place is Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State.

(http://en.mercopress.com/data/cache/noticias/39634/0x0/victoria-nuland.jpg)

If that name is familiar, it's because of something else she did or didn't do but nobody can prove it:

(http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/International/gty_benghazi_dm_130425_wblog.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: NS1 on December 03, 2013, 08:29:25 PM
They said that about the Baltics. They changed. The EU wore them down with promises of roads, infrastructure and a whole new gravy train for local politicians to jump on.

Okay, I caught that Manny.  I just can't believe it is coming from you.

 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: cufflinks on December 03, 2013, 09:05:20 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/protests-show-putin-battle-ukraine-not-over-081859462--business.html

NO TO RUSSIA...

By Timothy Heritage

Related Stories

France invites Ukrainian opposition's Klitschko to Paris Reuters
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Protests by hundreds of thousands of people in Ukraine against their leaders' U-turn over Europe have sent a warning to Vladimir Putin that the battle over the former Soviet republic's future is far from over.

For once, matters may be largely out of the Russian leader's hands: he appears to have little left in his political armory to woo Ukraine, especially if the protesters oust President Viktor Yanukovich or persuade him to change tack again.

There is no sign of Yanukovich quitting. But rallies by about 350,000 people this weekend, at times marred by clashes, have unleashed democratic forces which, for all his political calculations, Putin cannot control.

Public threats, such as cutting off gas supplies to Ukraine which could disrupt onward supplies to Europe, would risk stirring anti-Russian sentiment and do Yanukovich no favors.

"Yanukovich's big 'nyet' to EU followed by brutality against protesters could trigger Orange Revolution 2.0, wiping smirk off Putin's face," Strobe Talbott, a former U.S. deputy secretary of state, said in a tweeted message.

Talbott was referring to the "Orange Revolution" against sleaze and fraud which kept Yanukovich out of power in 2004.

Under pressure from Russia, Yanukovich dropped plans to sign a free trade pact with the European Union last Friday that would have steered his country of 46 million closer to Europe and further out of the orbit of its former Soviet masters in Moscow.

Instead he decided to rebuild economic ties with Russia. The sweeteners offered by Russia are thought to include cheap credits, cut-price Russian gas and trade incentives, and few doubt Putin also threatened Kiev with crippling trade sanctions.

It was a victory for Putin, but one which could yet prove pyrrhic - obliging Russia to support Ukraine financially when its own economy is stuttering - or be reversed.

Putin may be able to do little more now than offer even better terms to Yanukovich than those agreed in secret to try to prevent another policy zig-zag by Kiev.

DREAMS OF BIG UNION THREATENED

Putin is unlikely to stop pushing Ukraine to join a Moscow-led customs union with Kazakhstan and Belarus which he hopes to develop into a political and economic "Eurasian Union" to match the might of the United States and China.

Without Ukraine, its huge market, rich mineral resources and proximity to the EU's borders, building the Eurasian Union into a major alliance is probably mission impossible for Putin.

"Russia's policy is, in fact, an important question mark now. Moscow succeeded in scuttling Ukraine's attempt to draw closer to the EU, but Moscow's firmly stated longer-term goal of getting Ukraine to join the customs union is now also distinctly less attainable," said Alex Brideau, a senior analyst at the Eurasia Group risk consultancy.

He said Moscow was unlikely to drop membership of the customs union as the main condition for granting Ukraine loans and reducing the price it pays for Russian gas.

"We continue to believe that Moscow will, for now, stick to its conditions on bloc-membership," he said.

Ukraine's government must find more than $17 billion in 2014 to meet gas bills and debt repayments. Including the private sector, Ukraine faces debt repayments of more than $60 billion, or a third of its gross domestic product.

Putin is banking on Yanukovich not being able to obtain enough money from other sources to pay the bills, making him dependent on Russia stumping up the cash. The International Monetary Fund has no loan program with Ukraine.

For his part, Yanukovich continues to shop around for the best deal, playing East off against West. He was heading for China on Tuesday in his search for funding and investment, at the same time sending a signal to Putin that he cannot be complacent in the battle over ties with Ukraine.

Ukrainian leaders have also said the decision to freeze moves towards Europe is just a "pause" forced on then by economic necessity and have left their options open.

PROTESTERS SAY 'NO TO USSR'

Putin will for now continue efforts to shore up the customs union and aim criticism at the EU and the Ukrainian protesters, partly to show his domestic audience that he is defending Russian interests.

On Monday, he described the protesters as "very well prepared and trained militant groups" engaged in an attempt to unsettle Ukraine's legitimate rulers, and hinted that they had been trained by outside actors.

It is typical of Putin to seek to deflect such problems on to the West and often, by implication, the United States.

But a visit on Monday to Armenia, where he made the comments, showed the problems he faces winning public support in persuading other former Soviet republics to bond again with Moscow again, more than two decades after the Soviet Union collapsed.

His visit to Armenia was intended to ensure the southern Caucasus country carries out its promise to join the customs union, secured at talks with Putin in September which turned Yerevan away from its pro-European course.

But hundreds of people protested against Putin's visit under banners declaring "Putin, go home" and, in a reference to the Eurasian Union, "No to the USSR".

For all his success in putting pressure on politicians to bend to his will, Putin may not yet have come to terms with "people power".

He also appeared to be caught off guard in 2011 when he ran into opposition and protests in Russia after his announcement that he planned to return to the presidency after four years as prime minister.

Military might, even as a last resort, is an unlikely option for Putin as it would risk a Western military response and all-out confrontation, even though Russia fought a brief war with Georgia in 2008 over two breakaway regions with big ethnic Russian populations.

"I have no information whatsoever that Russian troops should be prepared to enter Ukraine," NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters in Brussels, when asked about speculation that Moscow could be ready to send in troops.

But he added: "In that case, of course, it would be in contradiction of all international obligations."


(Additional reporting by Alexei Anishchuk and Hasmik Mrktchyan in Yerevan and Adrian Croft in Brussels; Editing by Giles Elgood)

Holy Phooking Rooskies - Putin wants to Invade Ukraine - Cold War 2.0???

Who does he think he is Ophookingbamadroneanator???
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: ashbyclarke on December 03, 2013, 11:47:33 PM
can we get back to the point this was a TRADE AGREEMENT, not full membership to the EU, that was being negotiated.
Ukraine would be decades away from being able to join the EU, and that would be AFTER they had implemented western type "rules". The ruling elite would have to clean up their money and practices for starters.....how long do you think that might take?  :dh:


Isn’t the truth of the matter that Ukraine is divided down the middle on this?

Half the country has heavy trade links with Russia and the other half would like trade links with the EU?

Problem is Russia doesn’t want to keep subsidising Ukraine if they want trade with the EU, seems reasonable, and the EU can’t afford, or are hesitant on the amount of support Ukraine required to implement agreement.

Ukraine it would appear hasn’t prepared quickly enough to enable the trade agreement be implemented economically, as I said early in the  thread if Ukraine had promoted it’s manufacturing to the EU via the obvious routes then they might have been able to pull this off, as it is it’s just not a good deal for them financially.

Additionally the FSU has a better growth prospect for the next 5-10 years, the EU is in a crisis as usual and it’s future is far from certain.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 01:36:59 AM
No.  For every 1 CU supporter there are 3 EU supporters and 2/3 of Yanokovych's own party wants to be in the EU.  This would have guaranteed his re-election.  The truth is that Yanokvych probably is not even in control anymore.  Putin is controlling Yanokvych wittingly as a hostage and Azarov unwittingly by bunkering him and propping up Medvedchuk to play the part of a Quissling.
Title: Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow
Post by: 2tallbill on December 08, 2013, 01:14:47 PM
Protesters in Kiev Topple Lenin Statue as Rallies Grow

KIEV, Ukraine — In the biggest demonstration yet after weeks of growing momentum, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians filled the streets of Kiev on Sunday, tearing down and breaking up a monument to Lenin in the city center and intensifying their outcry over President Viktor F. Yanukovich’s turn away from Europe.

Carrying blue-and-yellow Ukrainian and European Union flags, the teeming crowd here filled Independence Square, which has been transformed by a vast and growing tent encampment, and where demonstrators have occupied public buildings, including City Hall.

(http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2013/12/09/world/09ukraine2.html)

“Resignation! Resignation!” members of the crowd chanted, reiterating their call for the ouster of Mr. Yanukovich and the government led by Prime Minister Mykola Azarov. Thousands more people gathered in other cities across the country.

The giant rally reflected just how deeply roiled this nation of 46 million people has become in the weeks since Mr. Yanukovich said he would not complete political and free-trade agreements with the European Union that he had been promising to sign for more than a year.

With Western governments urging a peaceful and lawful solution, but no indication of any possibility of a compromise, the continuing unrest seemed likely to confront Mr. Yanukovich with several unpalatable choices, including a crackdown by security officers that many demonstrators say they fear but believe was inevitable.

The president could wait, hoping that increasingly cold weather and demoralization will eventually thin the crowds, but the continuing occupation of a large swath of the capital has already added a patina of weakness and indecision to the government’s growing unpopularity.

Heightening the tension is a severe and urgent economic crisis, along with Ukraine’s need to secure a financial aid package worth $18 billion or more. At the moment, that help seems most likely to come from Russia, but any agreement with the Kremlin is likely to spur further public fury.

(http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2013/12/09/world/09ukraine1.html)

Many Ukrainians view the accords with the European Union as crucial to a brighter future, with Western-style rule of law that could combat what many view as deeply entrenched public corruption and cronyism among the country’s wealthy elite. They also see the agreements as eventually offering better economic opportunities.

The accords were also viewed as a way to break free of the grip of Russia, which nearly a quarter-century after the collapse of the Soviet Union continues to exert heavy sway here, including complete control over Ukraine’s natural crucial gas supply.

Mr. Yanukovich’s comments that in retreating from Europe, he planned to restore relations with Russia — where he met on Friday with President Vladimir V. Putin — have only further inflamed the crowds.

There is a lot more read about it here

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/world/europe/kiev-teems-with-pro-europe-protesters-as-thousands-more-gather.html?_r=0

On Sunday, the sky over Kiev was gray, but temperatures were comfortably above freezing.

The demonstrators were old and young and middle-aged, from Lviv in the west to Odessa in the south, and from Dnipropetrovsk in the east to the country’s heart, Kiev itself. Parents held children onto their shoulders, students wore blue-and-yellow striped face paint, and volunteers handed out steaming cups of tea and other refreshments. They sang the national anthem and were blessed from the stage by representatives of all of branches of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, save for the Moscow Patriarchate, which is loyal to Russia.

“I think the people have dignity,” said Svitlana Zalishchuk, one of a small coalition of civic organizers who have been leading the protest movement from behind the scenes. “This is why they are here: not because they are against Yanukovich, not because they are for the European Union, but because they have dignity, and they want to live with dignity.”

The protest movement accelerated drastically after a violent and ill-conceived crackdown by the riot police on a small group of demonstrators more than a week ago. Scenes of young protesters being beaten and bloodied with truncheons, some as they lay on the ground offering no resistance, enraged a country that views itself as inherently peaceful.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on December 12, 2013, 06:22:11 PM
Today, I stopped by a client in New Haven. Long conversation about everything, but he knows the former Soviet Union very well and has often been there, in fact this summer on a fellowship even though he is retired.

He commented that for Putin the "loss" of Ukraine would have done more damage to him personally and brought Russia to its knees if Ukraine signed the EU document. He pointed to the success of the Baltic states as well as Poland and how many Russian wonder why they can not have that reality. The legitimacy and power of Putin would have evaporated he believes. At first I thought no, but after thinking about his view point, I realize he has a very valid perspective.

Any ways it is food for thought.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: redroo on December 13, 2013, 07:48:41 AM
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/ukraine-is-failing-as-a-state/491462.html

Ukraine Is Failing as a State
13 December 2013 | Issue 5276
By Sergei Aleksashenko
Only two weeks have passed since Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych decided not to sign an association agreement with the European Union, preferring the "bird in the hand" offered by President Vladimir Putin to the "two in the bush" promised by Brussels.

It is too early to say whether that move will help Yanukovych retain power and win re-election to a second term in 2015, or whether he will even manage to serve out his current term. In any case, events in Kiev illustrate a few important points concerning the former Soviet republics as they vacillate on their future course.

First, Putin is no altruist. He is ready to promise not only Ukraine, but also Armenia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, billions of dollars in aid to stop them from linking up with the despicable West. But Putin's offer comes at a price. Each recipient must provide some service in return. For Yanukovych, that entails Ukraine's accession to Russia's Customs Union. When Yanukovych buckled under the direct threats from Putin, it seems he did not consider how his decision to reject the EU pact would be received at home.

Second, Ukraine has traveled much further along the path of democracy than Russia has during the post-Soviet period. As I see it, the principle difference between the two countries is that Ukraine has already had two presidents, Leonid Kravchuk and Viktor Yushchenko, who have failed to win re-­election. At the same time, however, this did not end in tragedy or with the country reeling into the abyss of chaos and anarchy.

Now Ukrainians understand that they can transfer presidential authority peacefully through fair elections and without the world coming to an end — a "point of no return" that Russia has yet to pass. At the same time, though, it is unclear whether Ukraine has conclusively passed that point. When Yanukovych came to power in 2010, I could not believe my Ukrainian friends' dire predictions that he would build an autocratic power vertical like in Russia. I thought the system of checks and balances was firmly in place there and would prevent it. But events proved me wrong. Hopefully, I will not be wrong again this time.

Third, as happened in Egypt and Tunisia, youth are leading Ukraine's movement for democratic principles and freedoms. These young Ukrainians do not remember the Soviet Union. They are not jaded or indifferent to their country's future, and they will not tolerate violations of their rights and freedoms as the older generation might. They want to build their own future in a European fashion and refuse to be appeased by unchallenging jobs at government ministries or state-owned companies.

Fourth, the Ukrainian police officers who beat peaceful protesters will inevitably attempt to save themselves by testifying against those who gave them orders, and so on up the chain of command. This could happen as early as the coming months, and it will serve as an object lesson for advocates of repressive measures.

Fifth and last, the political conflict only exacerbates Ukraine's already serious economic crisis. The country's economy is so unstable that it could collapse at any moment. The government holds its position in parliament by the slimmest of margins, and Yanukovych, who tries to pretend that he didn't know anything, now stands at a crossroads.

He can either undertake radical reforms that might win support from the International Monetary Fund but would likely elicit strong protests from the traditionally pro-Russian electorate. Or he could give in to the Russian ultimatum Putin's pet future project, the Eurasian Alliance, for the sake of the hefty gas credits and thereby lose any chance of re-election.

The Ukrainian authorities hope to go on "dodging raindrops" as long as they can, but experience shows that postponing the choice of an economic path is a sure recipe for collapse. That would turn Ukraine into a failed state, a country in which no government institution can properly carry out its function, even when it wants to.

It seems that both Russia and Europe are blind to the possibility of this political scenario playing out — and to the disastrous consequences it would bring.

Sergei Aleksashenko, former deputy finance minister and first deputy chairman of the Central Bank, is a visiting fellow at Georgetown University.



Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/ukraine-is-failing-as-a-state/491462.html#ixzz2nMmr3TxP
The Moscow Times
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 29, 2015, 02:43:44 AM
Hopefully MissleMe, does not mind me posting his message onto another thread. But it is interesting to see the some of the thinking and qoutes from two years ago, as well as this.

Ukraine join the EU?   LOL.  I'm pissing in my pants.  My friend who just went back to Belgium was the head honcho of the EU delegates that oversaw and wrote the protocols of EU's trade, visa, etc etc etc agenda.  There was no agenda to join EU.  Sure there was some trade agreement on the horizon. 

Her direct words.  "Ukraine will not join EU for another 50 years, the mafia, oligarchs, gangsters, banksters, and corruption must be eliminated".   

I asked why not just say "will not join for another 75 or 100 years or forever because it's going to take at least 4 generations to do what you said"

Her response  "Well we can't kill all hope can we?".   

I laughed but she didn't think it was funny.


Some of you on these forums are delusional.  Maidan was never about EU membership.  How do you join the EU when you have no money to peg your currency to the EURO?
That's the prerequisite.   The politicians used EUROMAIDAN as a means to excite the idiot plebeians,  oops I think I just offended some one, but I don't care. LOL   There was no money in the vault and EU was only going to offer 600 million Euros.  Russia offered more to keep this country from defaulting.   But USA had other plans.

Good god, all of this is readily available on the internet and some of  you are just too pig headed to even look it up.

And please don't call me a Ukraine/Ukrainian hater.  I've been married to my UKRAINIAN wife for over 14 years our child is 1/3 Ukrainian.  I've invested more than a million US dollars into this country.  I don't want to see this country go to war or go through misery.  I don't want to see my friends sons get pulled into the military.  But what I want has nothing to do with what will happen.  Some of you people have no idea what the root cause of all this is about.

What is the root cause you ask?    Socialist communism lasted god knows how many years.  (over 70 years  I presume).  USSR got balkanized.  Then the evil mofo hedge funds came in and started to prime and pump their money into a little worthless country called Ukraine.  In a matter of a few years, all the apartments the government gave to the Ukrainians or should I say USSRians became million dollar assets and all of a sudden the babooshkas and dyeahdooshkas were eating, sleeping shitting in million dollar assets.  Keep in mind these were paid off and these became raw assets. aka collateral for loans. 

Well this gave the people some illusion that their country was worth something.  On top of that the 70 plus years of USSR socialism depraved people of material goods so the plebeians, god forbid I used this ugly word again, had no immunity to any of the cash and crap coming into the country.  They went apeshit and grabbed whatever money could buy.  Just look outside your window.  Jeez I can count 3 MB,  5 Lexus Land Cruisers, a whole mess of Tata Rovers.  It's unreal for a country that has an average salary of less than 300 USD a month.  You simply can't take the socialism out of the Ukrainians in 24 years.   

All of a sudden everyone seemed to be a millionaire .  In reality this country is/was a poor farming country.  Then the banks started to pop up like mushrooms as the Ukrainians would say, and everyone was somehow involved in finance. 

Bad combo.  No immunity to materialism,  poor work habits, corrupt plebeians, corrupt politicians, mafia, gangster, oligarchs, violence, you name it the country had the worst concoction of any society.  On top of that cheap alcohol and depressive character did not help at all.

Look around you and count the number of banks that are still open.  It's stupendously unbelievable that there were more than 50 different bank in Ukraine.  That alone should tell you that the economy was underground and corruption was the main driver and engine of the society.  A healthy country could not have more than 5-10 different banks at most in any given city.   Then the plug gets pulled out and the country has a debt problem. 

Any of you thinking that, that is normal needs to have their head checked.  This country is getting what it deserves.  It took them 24 years to fail but the time to pay the pied piper is coming up.  When all is said and done 10% of the population will most likely vanish in 5-10 years, just like in Russia during the 90's.  Holodomor?  Here we go again!!!  The average Ukrainian is now spending well over 65% of his paycheck on food!  Hand to mouth!!!   History repeats itself because the public is stupid and elects the same officials into office.  Tymoshenko?  Jeez... a contractual killer as said by Milos Zeman still in the government office?   Porky?  A suspect of his family members death. 
Bottom line, politics is the face of the people.  Before they became politicians, they were Ukrainians.  Given a chance, almost all Ukrainians would do the same as the politicians are doing now.  This country was a failed state from the get go.  And no one wanted to fix the problem because there was always an easier way out.  Corruption via extortion, blackmail, shakedown, pay off,  etc etc.  Heck judges and cops are still up for sale and you wonder why it's so screwed up in Ukraine.   It's the same in Russia?  Sure but they aren't defaulting, at least not yet.   

Some of you need to read a little more about IMF, World Bank, OSCE, NATO, etc etc.  Read a book by Joseph Stiglitz on how evil IMF is and you'll wish that Ukraine would just default today so that the next next generation, the children that are yet to be born would have some kind of a future.   

There are so many people that just despise, abhor Russians on these forums.  I bet you half of them were looking at Russian profiles and writing to the girls before all this happened.  Then this thing happens and all of a sudden hatred pops up like gigantic mushrooms in the forest near Chernobyl.   Maybe  some of you poor sad sacks got rejected by beautiful Russian women, or maybe McCarthyism and the Red Scare is still in your DNA.  Whatever the reason, it's not good enough to be the divider. Ukraine can't live without Russia.  Just do the simple math.  Just look at Ukrainian products and see if anyone in the EU would ever want to buy such inferior products.   

 I have many friends in this country.  90% of my friends are Ukrainians.  They are all good hard working people. Not like those idiots and lazy *snip*s you see all the time, all day long.  They all have decent jobs.   10% of my friends are Russians.  Like the Ukrainians they are good, honest hard working people.  I can't distinguish one from the other.  They all look alike.  Talk alike and act alike.  I see expats in this country stirring up more crap than the natives by dividing the nation through bigotry.     It's sad.  especially when you know that they have access to English books and sites and can get information readily. 

I could go and on and on.  But I refrain. Some of you need to figure out the rest on your own.    Just remember, this country is becoming more and more socialist every day.  Ukraine is going back in time.   Life before Maidan is starting to look like paradise.   Let's just hope we don't end up in the stone ages after all is said and done.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: andrewfi on August 29, 2015, 04:29:32 AM
I know nothing about this missileme fellow but his post above seems to be pretty much on the mark.

I took a little look back in the thread and saw something else.

I wrote that Ukraine was not a failed state and gave objective reasoning why it was not so.

Sadly, in just 18 months a middle class, relatively stable nation has lost control of its border, its money supply, its armed forces, its law enforcement, its income generation. It is hard to now NOT see Ukraine as a failing state. Failed - not yet, but not far off.

Sadly the reasons why this has happened are also stuff I wrote about at the time - but basically the interference of external actors (the EU and US). The only other times we have seen even moderately competent states fail it has also been due to the interference of external actors and, bugger me, but the same two!

At the time (November/December 2013) I had no idea of the malevolent interference already undertaken in Ukraine - that knowledge was still to come.

This affair demonstrates yet again how thin the veneer of civilization is. How rapidly we can lose that which we assume to be immutable. USAians need to look around themselves and to themselves and start to think about the path that they are unwittingly following because they are are only a few weeks or months away from such divisions, such ruination - all it takes is for a tipping point to be reached and even the most smug USAian must surely understand the fragility of their economic and social system.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: MissileMe on August 29, 2015, 07:52:08 AM
I know nothing about this missileme fellow but his post above seems to be pretty much on the mark.

I took a little look back in the thread and saw something else.

I wrote that Ukraine was not a failed state and gave objective reasoning why it was not so.

Sadly, in just 18 months a middle class, relatively stable nation has lost control of its border, its money supply, its armed forces, its law enforcement, its income generation. It is hard to now NOT see Ukraine as a failing state. Failed - not yet, but not far off.

Sadly the reasons why this has happened are also stuff I wrote about at the time - but basically the interference of external actors (the EU and US). The only other times we have seen even moderately competent states fail it has also been due to the interference of external actors and, bugger me, but the same two!

At the time (November/December 2013) I had no idea of the malevolent interference already undertaken in Ukraine - that knowledge was still to come.

This affair demonstrates yet again how thin the veneer of civilization is. How rapidly we can lose that which we assume to be immutable. USAians need to look around themselves and to themselves and start to think about the path that they are unwittingly following because they are are only a few weeks or months away from such divisions, such ruination - all it takes is for a tipping point to be reached and even the most smug USAian must surely understand the fragility of their economic and social system.

Think of Ukraine like this:  it's like a girl that never had a chance to go through puberty.  One day she was born.  The next day she was a super model.  The third day, she became a whore.  The forth day she's a washed up druggie who just wants $$$$. 

Ukraine never had a chance.  It was too late to the game.  War cycles are peaking sometime in the next few years.  Money and credit crunch is already hitting the entire world.  BRICS are all tanking.  The world as we know might be coming to an abrupt halt because of bad politics.  Ukaine would have never made it in 25 years.  Look at Japan, it took them close to 55 years.   And they say that was miracle.  Look at Malaysia.  They modified the Japanese method and that took 22 years.  It's gotten to a good point but still needs work. 

Market corrects itself, think of it as an auto correction mode, that kicks in when politicians do stupid things and people follow these stupid ideas that are too good to be true.

24 years would have been enough to get onto track if the people weren't so doused in socialist communism.  The oldies would vote for anyone promising them an extra mere extra hundred UAH for their pension.  This perpetuated the horrible cycle and the same old crooks got into office, plundering, pilfering, extorting, blackmailing, you name it they did it for their own good.    Incidentally, Timoshenko apparently only owns 1  and I mean one, one bedroom apartment in Kiev.  That is what she wrote on her declaration form.  Oops. I guess she just conveniently forgot to write that penthouse in London. 

Ukrainians never understood anything about research, development, hard work, saying no to corruption, regarding life as precious, etc etc.  You know the things they teach you in kindergarten.   All this allowed evil to just multiply rapidly.   You all must have heard the word "FAVOR".     Every time someone does a favor a little bit of the country dies.  Do that 24 years in a row, well you have Ukraine.

I'm so surprised when I hear my friends ask me, how do we borrow so much money from the international community?   I tell them  "well.... you're using farm land and commodities as collateral.  Which is why USA is not too happy with Donetsk.  It's their land, not yours "    Inevitably they ask, what's going to happen?   I tell them cynically.  "You know, you, Ukrainians have a saying  "only a coward pays back a debt".    That is what you're trying to do now.    Only unlike during the Soviet times, when your economy was contained in Soviet Union,  now it's international because you borrowed money from the entire world via IMF and World Bank.  So this time around these guys are going to rip the skin off your back when the time comes.   You might have some serious food shortage problem down the road. "

  I explained to them about the Irish potato famine and how it was kinda similar and some of them still insisted that they have gone through the same old  situation.  I told them SOS is the acronym.  Only this time around no one is going to come save your souls because you have no money. 

Monsanto and their GMO is already here, they own so much of the farm land.  The Chinese own so much of the farm land too.  Soon all the collateral will be gone.  Then we're looking at a true failed state.

There is only one way to combat this, if you agree to anything I wrote, spread the word.  Teach the people. We are many.  They are few.  It only takes one strong, untouchable leader to turn things around. But that person can only be forged through hard times.   This is how the story most likely will end and with hope, I wish that it will be the new beginning. 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on August 29, 2015, 08:54:34 AM
Mindlessly chanting "Слава Україні! Героям слава!" is as much as DUBs can manage; good luck teaching them about the importance of ethics for the survival of the society.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Anteros on August 29, 2015, 11:12:29 AM
Mindlessly chanting "Слава Україні! Героям слава!" is as much as DUBs can manage; good luck teaching them about the importance of ethics for the survival of the society.

Could you please explain how you are defining what a "DUB" is?  I've seen so many various definitions for this that I don't know for sure which one you mean.

In regards to ethics you only have to try to wait in a line with a bunch of Ukrainians to know what dog eat dog kind of people they are.  They have absolutely no manners or respect for normal order.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 29, 2015, 07:33:10 PM
Monsanto and their GMO is already here, they own so much of the farm land. The Chinese own so much of the farm land too.  Soon all the collateral will be gone.  Then we're looking at a true failed state.

While I generally agree with the sentiment that you express could you provide some proof of what I put in bold from your qoute.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: TomT on August 29, 2015, 10:05:23 PM
Could you please explain how you are defining what a "DUB" is? 

The uncertainty about the meaning of that acronym keeps me below moderation's radar.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 12, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
On a different thread and in fact elsewhere this topic has come up so I have revived this one.

It features a few colorful former posters as well as rather sober opinions and thoughts.


Not entirely certain what the reality is today in Russia, but today most debt (mortgages and loans) in Ukraine are tied to either the $ or €. Before this was the case in Russia.

Ukraine is a failed state. Not the same.

Odd when I posted that as the title of a rhetorical thread most railed against the concept. People go to work and the markets stalls and grocery stores are filled across the country. Hospitals meet the needs of those  needing services and children go to school or University. The quality of life is fine and there are youth groups for a variety of activities. Opera's and ballets around preformed in concert halls as well as significant pop concerts occur.

Some how failed states do not provide these things.

I consider Ukraine a stressed state. Primarily because it is resisting the Imperialistic adventures of its Eastern 'neighbour' bully.

It might be worth reviving the thread.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: B.B. on August 12, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
On a different thread and in fact elsewhere this topic has come up so I have revived this one.

It features a few colorful former posters as well as rather sober opinions and thoughts.


Not entirely certain what the reality is today in Russia, but today most debt (mortgages and loans) in Ukraine are tied to either the $ or €. Before this was the case in Russia.

Ukraine is a failed state. Not the same.

Odd when I posted that as the title of a rhetorical thread most railed against the concept. People go to work and the markets stalls and grocery stores are filled across the country. Hospitals meet the needs of those  needing services and children go to school or University. The quality of life is fine and there are youth groups for a variety of activities. Opera's and ballets around preformed in concert halls as well as significant pop concerts occur.

Some how failed states do not provide these things.

I consider Ukraine a stressed state. Primarily because it is resisting the Imperialistic adventures of its Eastern 'neighbour' bully.

It might be worth reviving the thread.


Not particularly.  Ukraine isn't a failed state.  Somalia is a failed state.  Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia and had part of its territory annexed and its eastern region destabilized, and ongoing Kremlin interference in is politics, because: Russian Nationalism. 

There are guys on the board, including the proprietor, who, for various reasons involving "ethnicity of wife", or who are unmarried but are known for peculiar political views, etc., must take positions that are contra to reality.

B/B
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 12, 2018, 04:39:09 PM
On a different thread and in fact elsewhere this topic has come up so I have revived this one.

It features a few colorful former posters as well as rather sober opinions and thoughts.


Not entirely certain what the reality is today in Russia, but today most debt (mortgages and loans) in Ukraine are tied to either the $ or €. Before this was the case in Russia.

Ukraine is a failed state. Not the same.

Odd when I posted that as the title of a rhetorical thread most railed against the concept. People go to work and the markets stalls and grocery stores are filled across the country. Hospitals meet the needs of those  needing services and children go to school or University. The quality of life is fine and there are youth groups for a variety of activities. Opera's and ballets around preformed in concert halls as well as significant pop concerts occur.

Some how failed states do not provide these things.

I consider Ukraine a stressed state. Primarily because it is resisting the Imperialistic adventures of its Eastern 'neighbour' bully.

It might be worth reviving the thread.


Not particularly.  Ukraine isn't a failed state.  Somalia is a failed state.  Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia and had part of its territory annexed and its eastern region destabilized, and ongoing Kremlin interference in is politics, because: Russian Nationalism.

There are guys on the board, including the proprietor, who, for various reasons involving "ethnicity of wife", or who are unmarried but are known for peculiar political views, etc., must take positions that are contra to reality.

B/B

 
 :thumbsup: tiphat

The pro-Putin apologists and propagandists don’t want to hear this stark reality yet you summed it all up very accurately.

It’s especially funny to hear an honest Russian called a “propagandist”.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: msmoby on August 12, 2018, 11:38:47 PM

There are guys on the board, including the proprietor, who, for various reasons involving "ethnicity of wife", or who are unmarried but are known for peculiar political views, etc., must take positions that are contra to reality.



 :ROFL:

Are some guys that 'hen-pecked'  ?
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 13, 2018, 07:23:17 AM
Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia

When was this forcible invasion? I'm surprised it never made the news.

Are you sure all America's forcible invasions of other countries the last few decades one after another all around the world isn't getting you confused? 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: B.B. on August 13, 2018, 07:50:41 AM
Are some guys that 'hen-pecked'  ?

Finland-ized, methinks.

When was this forcible invasion? I'm surprised it never made the news.

It made the news, you are just being willfully ignorant because, as the Greater Manchester Spokesman for the Russian Federation, you must maintain a position that is, as I said, "contra to reality."

Are you sure all America's forcible invasions of other countries the last few decades one after another all around the world isn't getting you confused?

Not in the slightest.  One of the sad side-effects of Europe's peculiar and unfortunate habit of sprouting genocidal dictators was that you lot have required "forcible invasions" in Italy and France, etc.  We tried minding our own business after 1918.  Didn't work out.  It became clear that you lot need Adult Supervision, and so we have provided it ever since.  History teaches us that when we leave Europe be, tens of millions of people die.

Now, it seems that the pendulum has swung in a different direction and W. Europe seems intent on importing vast number of folks who belong to a homicidal, child-raping death cult.  Once can hardly expect a positive outcome there.  Looks like the Muzzies will be running the game next time.

Of course, your WHATABOUT-ism is merely a distraction and we both know that (a) it has zero bearing on the subject at hand, and (b) Russia invaded Crimea and continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine.

Oh, and please trot out "That Nuland woman!  She brought them doughnuts!"  That's one of my faves.  :chuckle:

B/B
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 13, 2018, 08:01:11 AM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 09:12:54 AM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

In reality thousands of Ukrainians rose up in an organic protest, many were shot and killed on Yanukovych orders and the rest is history.

The USA wanted Sevastopol? Please. You were certainly wearing your tin foil hat to come up with that idea.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Markje on August 13, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

In reality thousands of Ukrainians rose up in an organic protest, many were shot and killed on Yanukovych orders and the rest is history.
no yanukovich did not order the snipers on the roof. Who did is still a major unsolved mystery.
Quote
The USA wanted Sevastopol? Please. You were certainly wearing your tin foil hat to come up with that idea.
you are incredibly short sighted or incredibly naïve. Of course anyone opposing russia would want sevastopol. Its military strategic value is huge. Thats why its there
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 09:51:00 AM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

In reality thousands of Ukrainians rose up in an organic protest, many were shot and killed on Yanukovych orders and the rest is history.
no yanukovich did not order the snipers on the roof. Who did is still a major unsolved mystery.
Quote
The USA wanted Sevastopol? Please. You were certainly wearing your tin foil hat to come up with that idea.
you are incredibly short sighted or incredibly naïve. Of course anyone opposing russia would want sevastopol. Its military strategic value is huge. Thats why its there

First of all Russia was already in Sevastopol, the USA was not going to start WWIII in an effort to dislodge them, that is the most preposterous part of this theory.

Second we already had bases near Romania and elsewhere.

In regards to the claim of “strategic value” that is debatable. The Black Sea can be easily closed near the Bosporus which would render it a trap for all those Russian vessels.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 10:01:20 AM
Mark you can refer to B/B’s post 244 above if you have any further questions about the US presence in the region.

quoting B/B
Of course, your WHATABOUT-ism is merely a distraction and we both know that (a) it has zero bearing on the subject at hand, and (b)Russia invaded Crimea and continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine.


Unlike Russia we’re not there to steal land from FSU neighbors, we’re there to protect our partners in NATO who want to maintain their sovereignty.

Such as our partner in Romania.

http://www.c6f.navy.mil/news/exercise-spring-storm-2018-photos
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 13, 2018, 10:20:00 AM
Unlike Russia we’re not there to steal land from FSU neighbors, we’re there to protect our partners in NATO who want to maintain their sovereignty.

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 10:24:33 AM
Unlike Russia we’re not there to steal land from FSU neighbors, we’re there to protect our partners in NATO who want to maintain their sovereignty.

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

The USA is “occupying” Estonia?

    :ROFL:      :ROFL:      :ROFL:     tiphat

In regards to Libya you’ve got a good point, except that we’re not discussing Libya or elsewhere, we’re discussing Ukraine.

Obviously Russia would like Ukraine to be failed. Like an abusive husband who cannot have his former wife, Russia also does not want Ukraine to grow and prosper. Which is why you push the ridiculous theory that Ukraine is “failed”.

quoting B/B
Of course, your WHATABOUT-ism is merely a distraction and we both know that (a) it has zero bearing on the subject at hand, and (b)Russia invaded Crimea and continues to destabilize Eastern Ukraine.

De-Dollarization?  :laugh:

The longer Putin tries to greedily steal what belongs to others the more damage he does to his own economy.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: B.B. on August 13, 2018, 10:38:39 AM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

I mention the Nuland woman to poke fun at your position.

Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

If we kept our snout out of world affairs, you'd be farming turnips for Stalin or celebrating you 70th+ year of being Germany's bitch, and there'd be a statue of Oswald Mosley outside of Parliament.

Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed. 

Dafuq do we need Sebastopol for?  We could simply blockade the Bosporus and that would be that, assuming that's what we wanted to do.  Control of the Crimea and  :censored: ing with Ukraine are VASTLY more important to Putin than they are to the US, which is why he can get away with doing it: we don't care.

You'd be surprised how little Americans give a shit about Syria.  Again, vastly more important Russia.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:

The only thing that's changed is that we now have a president who expects the Europeans to pull their own weight.  :8)

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

 :ROFL:

Evidently, Dunkin has replace McD's as America's "Rapid Deployment Force" of cultural imperialism!  :chuckle:

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Confederate mentioned Rumania, which joined NATO in 2004.

Indeed, one might inquire as to why EVERY member of the Warsaw Pact not named "Russia" is now in NATO.  That's not a coincidence. 

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

The problem of Russian nationalism continues.  They just aren't in the same position to be able to inflict it upon others.

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The only credible defense Estonia and similarly situated countries have against possible Russian aggression is to point to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty.

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time.  If the Baltic nations felt that Russia did not, or was not, capable of posing a threat to them - and if there were any doubt, they could simply inquire of the Ukrainians - they are free to leave NATO.

None of them have.  I wonder why that is....

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

Manny, go have a lie-down.  You're having one of your 'spells'....

B/B
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 12:03:04 PM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

I mention the Nuland woman to poke fun at your position.

Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government
.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

If we kept our snout out of world affairs, you'd be farming turnips for Stalin or celebrating you 70th+ year of being Germany's bitch, and there'd be a statue of Oswald Mosley outside of Parliament.

Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed. 

Dafuq do we need Sebastopol for?  We could simply blockade the Bosporus and that would be that, assuming that's what we wanted to do.  Control of the Crimea and  :censored: ing with Ukraine are VASTLY more important to Putin than they are to the US, which is why he can get away with doing it: we don't care.

You'd be surprised how little Americans give a shit about Syria.  Again, vastly more important Russia.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:

The only thing that's changed is that we now have a president who expects the Europeans to pull their own weight.  :8)

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

 :ROFL:

Evidently, Dunkin has replace McD's as America's "Rapid Deployment Force" of cultural imperialism!  :chuckle:

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Confederate mentioned Rumania, which joined NATO in 2004.

Indeed, one might inquire as to why EVERY member of the Warsaw Pact not named "Russia" is now in NATO.  That's not a coincidence. 

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

The problem of Russian nationalism continues.  They just aren't in the same position to be able to inflict it upon others.

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The only credible defense Estonia and similarly situated countries have against possible Russian aggression is to point to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty.

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time.  If the Baltic nations felt that Russia did not, or was not, capable of posing a threat to them - and if there were any doubt, they could simply inquire of the Ukrainians - they are free to leave NATO.

None of them have.  I wonder why that is....

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

Manny, go have a lie-down.  You're having one of your 'spells'....

B/B

Boom! “Every former Warsaw Pact nation now a member of NATO”. Ouch! ????????????
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: msmoby on August 13, 2018, 12:38:34 PM
[
Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

Not QUITE the analogy I'd use - but the last sentence PERFECTLY describes my stance, too

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: leslied on August 13, 2018, 12:48:18 PM
Well, I am not getting into an argument with an attorney.  I know I would lose.

American imperialism has been around for 70+ years.  Americans truly believe that the world should adopt American values - whether they like it or not...

Here is a Tom Lehrer song which sums up this viewpoint in the 60's.  Things have not changed much since then  tiphat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFvxqQTh3m4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFvxqQTh3m4)

Enjoy  ;D
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Steveboy on August 13, 2018, 12:52:57 PM
By mentioning the Nuland woman you are showing us that you know that your lot overthrew the elected president and are now backsliding with the usual Russophobic rhetoric.

I mention the Nuland woman to poke fun at your position.

Oh, and calling me "Russophobic" is the RUA equivalent of the Leftoids shrieking "ISLAMOPHOBE!" at anyone who says Perfectly True and Applicable Things about the Pedo-Death Cult.

I actually rather like Russia and Russians, I simply not blind to the actions of the Russian government.

If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful.

If we kept our snout out of world affairs, you'd be farming turnips for Stalin or celebrating you 70th+ year of being Germany's bitch, and there'd be a statue of Oswald Mosley outside of Parliament.

Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed. 

Dafuq do we need Sebastopol for?  We could simply blockade the Bosporus and that would be that, assuming that's what we wanted to do.  Control of the Crimea and  :censored: ing with Ukraine are VASTLY more important to Putin than they are to the US, which is why he can get away with doing it: we don't care.

You'd be surprised how little Americans give a shit about Syria.  Again, vastly more important Russia.

Stuff changed. Best you folks stay home and start building that southern wall.  :coffeeread:

The only thing that's changed is that we now have a president who expects the Europeans to pull their own weight.  :8)

Who knew that all it took were donuts?

 :ROFL:

Evidently, Dunkin has replace McD's as America's "Rapid Deployment Force" of cultural imperialism!  :chuckle:

Tell us when Ukraine joined NATO then?

Confederate mentioned Rumania, which joined NATO in 2004.

Indeed, one might inquire as to why EVERY member of the Warsaw Pact not named "Russia" is now in NATO.  That's not a coincidence. 

Tell us while you are about it why NATO even still exists as the entity it was created to protect the rest of Europe from doesn't exist any more?

The problem of Russian nationalism continues.  They just aren't in the same position to be able to inflict it upon others.

Surely you dont *really* believe that any of these countries you are currently occupying like Estonia are actually under any kind of threat?

The only credible defense Estonia and similarly situated countries have against possible Russian aggression is to point to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty.

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time.  If the Baltic nations felt that Russia did not, or was not, capable of posing a threat to them - and if there were any doubt, they could simply inquire of the Ukrainians - they are free to leave NATO.

None of them have.  I wonder why that is....

The US is the world's most prolific terrorist state. You maraud around the world invading country after country, killing leaders and funding coups while telling yourselves killing millions of people is the harbinger of some kind of "freedom". In fact, you are utterly destroying countries (eg Libya). Your media and sanction machine is positioned at Russia because they are the only ones that stood up to you and thwarted your last two attempts at interventions (Ukraine and Syria). As you never take on nations who can defend themselves (eg North Korea) the 'warfare' with Russia is more insidious and devious. The only way to rein you lot in without a major war is to de-dollarise, which many countries are doing. It's a process.........

Manny, go have a lie-down.  You're having one of your 'spells'....

B/B

NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time. What like a Brexit.. oh yeah... :laugh:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 13, 2018, 01:13:07 PM
Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

Locals in Estonia by and large dont welcome the US military there. You'll recall in some eastern european countries people were out demonstrating against and blockading them as they passed through their towns.



There were many protests and blockades when that daft convoy lark was going on, the western media was silent on it of course and only showed the other side.

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 01:24:33 PM
Well, I am not getting into an argument with an attorney.  I know I would lose.

American imperialism has been around for 70+ years.  Americans truly believe that the world should adopt American values - whether they like it or not...

Here is a Tom Lehrer song which sums up this viewpoint in the 60's.  Things have not changed much since then  tiphat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFvxqQTh3m4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFvxqQTh3m4)

Enjoy  ;D

I love that song!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Steveboy on August 13, 2018, 01:28:18 PM
Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:

I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

Locals in Estonia by and large dont welcome the US military there. You'll recall in some eastern european countries people were out demonstrating against and blockading them as they passed through their towns.



There were many protests and blockades when that daft convoy lark was going on, the western media was silent on it of course and only showed the other side.


When they were in Moldova they put the US flags out, that caused lots of problems..

These *snip*s.. why do they feel the need to put their pathetic flag up..who even needs the idiots driving about like a bunch of clowns..
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 01:30:39 PM
Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:


On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 13, 2018, 01:45:32 PM
Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:


On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

1939. Stop being silly.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 01:54:52 PM
Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:


On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

1939. Stop being silly.  :coffeeread:

Not silly at all! Finland knows what Russia is capable of (as does Poland for example) however Finland correctly believes their political and economic issues are better by remaining neutral.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 13, 2018, 03:00:43 PM
In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 13, 2018, 04:35:29 PM

There were many protests and blockades when that daft convoy lark was going on, the western media was silent on it of course and only showed the other side.

Nice to see Vladimir Lenin Putin on a flag. Sort of reminds me of all those happy-clappy citizens of the Czechoslovakia and Hungary who 'welcomed' the troops from the Kremlin a while back.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: dcguyusa on August 13, 2018, 04:50:31 PM
Quote
I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

I am not sure if this would qualify as "occupation", but the USA "colluded"   :chuckle: with the Afghan resistance forces against the Taliban.  The Taliban, having earlier, taken over Afghanistan after the departure of USSR forces earlier.  USSR helped to set up a pro-Soviet leader (Babrak Karmal) in Kabul.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 13, 2018, 05:00:17 PM
Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:


On the one hand they don’t want to provoke the much larger Russian bear. They did lose a large part of Karelia to Russia.

On the other hand the Finns perfected the Molotov cocktail and beat back a Russian invasion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

1939. Stop being silly.  :coffeeread:

Yesterday marked the 'Miracle at/on the Vistula'

Vladimir Lenin wanted to export Communism to Western Europe, and after destroying the newly formed Ukraine nation overrunning Kiev he aimed sights on Berlin and Paris. This he planned after conquering Warsaw and the Polish people. He expected the local populations would support his aims.

His troops pushed on, defeating and destroying large parts of the Polish military. Only within 20 miles were the Polish troops able to regroup and than throughly rout the Russians. The defeat marked for a time the end of military adventures of the leaders of the Kremlin.

There is an odd footnote, Jozef Stalin who was also a leader in this military adventure defied orders and attempted for his own vanity seize L'viv/Lvov. That also did not work out well.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: d672 on August 13, 2018, 05:09:09 PM
In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

 Lol, and yet the US threat in Crimea is not!  :chuckle:



If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.


 I asked you once before why the US wouldn't come get Sevastopol in the 90's when they were stronger and Russia and Ukraine were weak but you could not give me a reasonable answer. Can you now? And take a look at this... it seems China was the one who had plans for Crimea, not the US

https://jamestown.org/program/sale-of-crimean-land-by-yanukovych-made-infor-china/


During his visit to China, Yanukovych also signed a territorial “agreement” allowing the Chinese to lease about 160,000 hectares of Crimean land, well known for its fertile black soil, for the next 50 years, thus turning Crimea into a food-production colony for China.

In the initial part of the project, the Chinese plan to invest $3 billion to build a new mega-port in Crimea, which will be similar to Lingang Industrial park in Shanghai. Some of this money will also go to the expansion and upgrading of the Sevastopol port, where the Russian Black Sea Fleet is located.


 Take a look at the date on the article, Feb 6th, 2014... just before the Russian intervention of Crimea. Now if you were Putin, would you be more concerned about US interests in Crimea? Or Chinese?   :coffeeread:


 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 05:14:58 PM
In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

 Lol, and yet the US threat in Crimea is not!  :chuckle:



If you lot kept your snout out of world affairs things would be more peaceful. Your intervention in Ukraine failed and you didn't get the prize (access to Sevastopol). And your attempted regime change in Syria also failed.


 I asked you once before why the US wouldn't come get Sevastopol in the 90's when they were stronger and Russia and Ukraine were weak but you could not give me a reasonable answer. Can you now? And take a look at this... it seems China was the one who had plans for Sevestopol, not the US

https://www.ft.com/content/04619a7a-5da2-11e3-95bd-00144feabdc0


 Take a look at the date on the article, Dec 5th, 2013... just before the Russian intervention of Crimea. Now if you were Putin, would you be more concerned about US interests in Crimea? Or Chinese?   :coffeeread:

 :-X

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: d672 on August 13, 2018, 05:23:08 PM
 Just to clarify.... I edited the article link in my post to another one because the original one wouldn't let anyone see it without a subscription once I posted it for some reason. Confed's quote of me shows the old one, my post shows the second one.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: d672 on August 13, 2018, 05:48:40 PM

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say.  :laugh:


 Or programmed to believe!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 13, 2018, 06:30:39 PM

Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say.  :laugh:

 Or programmed to believe!  :laugh:

:chuckle: You both have point. The reality is your perspective and standpoint.

I guess the greater question would one prefer the freedoms and prosperity that the West lead by the United States to the misery and economic poverty and lack of basic freedoms that are a hallmark of Russia in one guise or in another?

Certainly there are warts and ugly parts of the West - but this to my sensibilities are preferable to the 'Soviet' vision.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: B.B. on August 13, 2018, 08:41:20 PM
NATO countries may freely exit the Alliance at any time. What like a Brexit.. oh yeah... :laugh:

With a lot less drama and no stick-up on the way out.  Remind me how well that's going, btw.

Meanwhile, the Easter Bloc (minus, of course, Russia) broke the land speed record for joining NATO the very second that they could because: Russian Nationalism. 


Strange that Finland that borders Russia together with nearby Sweden did not join NATO though, eh?  :whist11:

The Finns Findlandized themselves, and I'm not sure that I'd use Sweden as an example, given that, during the great struggle for the future against Nazism, they couldn't be bothered, other than to play host to Goring and to be the armorer to the Reich.

In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

Russia no longer has the ability to project its power around the world as it once did.  The bear is merely sleeping, though.

Quote
I missed where the USA was occupying any part of a state formerly run by Moscow ...

I am not sure if this would qualify as "occupation", but the USA "colluded"   :chuckle: with the Afghan resistance forces against the Taliban.  The Taliban, having earlier, taken over Afghanistan after the departure of USSR forces earlier.  USSR helped to set up a pro-Soviet leader (Babrak Karmal) in Kabul.

But for bin Laden, America would not give a toss about Afghanistan.  We'd be perfectly content to let them get on with their blowing up Buddhas and goat- :censored: ing.  But no, they had to let OBL fly planes into office buildings.  Then it was on like Donkey Kong.


Quiet bud. You’re messing up the carefully scripted narrative of what he’s been told to say.  :laugh:


 Or programmed to believe!  :laugh:

He does seem dead set on being more Royalist than the King (or Tsar, if you prefer).  :chuckle:

B/B
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2018, 08:58:27 PM
In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

Really? Then why is Russia seizing more Georgian land??  :'(

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2018/08/russia-is-quietly-seizing-territory-in-georgia-as-it-warns-of-a-horrible-conflict-if-the-eurasian-country-joins-nato/
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 01:52:28 AM
Ukraine is a state that was forcibly invaded by Russia

When was this forcible invasion? I'm surprised it never made the news.


Funny but Combat Medals are not given out for propaganda.  :coffeeread:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2016/09/06/russian-combat-medals-put-lie-to-putins-claim-of-no-russian-troops-in-ukraine/amp/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_%22For_the_Return_of_Crimea%22

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: SL0413 on August 14, 2018, 09:04:27 AM
There seems to be a lot passion going around about world leaders and invasions and such.

Here's my perspective, stripped of the machinations of any specific person or political group:

Russia has a problem.  It's borders are not secure.  Throughout history it has been invaded, with varying degrees of successes and failures.  The formation of the USSR was near perfect for Russia - buffer states on the west, southwest, and south, friendly or insignificant nations (geo-politically speaking) to the southeast.  But the SSR ultimately failed internally.

With the dissolution, Russia still had friendly buffer nations surrounding it.  Then came Maidan, and a new government that was looking to be a part of the EU and NATO.  Most likely NATO would be not open hostilities with Russia and dwindle over the years, and maybe decades later Russia would even join the EU (pure speculation and far fetched, but possible)

However, as the past 2 centuries+ has shown, Russia was invaded by the west.  Swedes, Prussians, French, Germans, etc.  So, for the sake of national interest and security, Russia needs a new buffer zone - Crimea and Donbass.  Straight invasion and takeover is politically difficult.  Encouraging and supporting local separatists efforts is lower risk and achieves the same result.  If it stresses and destabilizes the rest of Ukraine, even better (for Russia).

Sevastopol is critical to Russia - it is the only warm water port Russia has with relatively easy access.  It is not much of use to other nations.  They would desire it, but it is a logistical nightmare to support and is too vulnerable.

Russia could have made Sevastopol an exclave like Kaliningrad, but if the rest of Crimea is in the hands of a not-so-friendly state, then it is Kaliningrad all over again.  Therefore Crimea itself is critical for Russia, in addition to being a handy buffer zone.

Same for the southwest.  Georgia was becoming more westernized, but the caucasus creates a natural land barrier, except along the black sea shore.  Solution - Abkhazia republic.  A pro-Russian buffer zone. 

There is open terrain in the eastern side of the caucasus, but Azerbaijan is a friendly nation and not a concern...yet.  If Azerbaijan becomes more westernized, there will probably be another Russian support for the autonomous pro-russian people who would conveniently be located north of Baku (Guba-Khachmaz).  Or encourage and support populist change from a pro-western administration for a pro-russian one (Abulfaz Elchibey).  Much easier if the latter can be achieved.

Kazakhstan is interesting.  There is no practical way Russia can secure it's border with Kazakhstan.  It has to be pro-russian for border security.

I am not saying any of the above is morally right or just. I am only laying out the military and nation security viewpoint.


Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 09:49:45 AM
In other words, they dont feel threatened because there is no threat. This Russian threat malarkey is all made up nonsense.

  :laugh:
You should tweet praise on Trump's page and get a foreign PR job with his administration,  you'd fit in perfectly,  well except that accent of yours.  tiphat

I find it annoying when propaganda swings from one extreme to the other.

There’s been ZERO evidence of collusion between DJT and Putin yet here’s Donhollio right on cue.

Because Congress has more power than Trump it’s unlikely there’s going to be any deals.

In fact President Trump shut down Russian embassies in San Francisco and Seattle.

Meanwhile lemmings like DonkyDon ignore that Hillary took Millions of $$$ from Russia in exchange for 20% of US uranium.  :fighting0025:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 10:07:01 AM
There seems to be a lot passion going around about world leaders and invasions and such.

Here's my perspective, stripped of the machinations of any specific person or political group:

Russia has a problem.  It's borders are not secure.  Throughout history it has been invaded, with varying degrees of successes and failures.  The formation of the USSR was near perfect for Russia - buffer states on the west, southwest, and south, friendly or insignificant nations (geo-politically speaking) to the southeast.  But the SSR ultimately failed internally.

With the dissolution, Russia still had friendly buffer nations surrounding it.  Then came Maidan, and a new government that was looking to be a part of the EU and NATO.  Most likely NATO would be not open hostilities with Russia and dwindle over the years, and maybe decades later Russia would even join the EU (pure speculation and far fetched, but possible)

However, as the past 2 centuries+ has shown, Russia was invaded by the west.  Swedes, Prussians, French, Germans, etc.  So, for the sake of national interest and security, Russia needs a new buffer zone - Crimea and Donbass.  Straight invasion and takeover is politically difficult.  Encouraging and supporting local separatists efforts is lower risk and achieves the same result.  If it stresses and destabilizes the rest of Ukraine, even better (for Russia).

Sevastopol is critical to Russia - it is the only warm water port Russia has with relatively easy access.  It is not much of use to other nations.  They would desire it, but it is a logistical nightmare to support and is too vulnerable.

Russia could have made Sevastopol an exclave like Kaliningrad, but if the rest of Crimea is in the hands of a not-so-friendly state, then it is Kaliningrad all over again.  Therefore Crimea itself is critical for Russia, in addition to being a handy buffer zone.

Same for the southwest.  Georgia was becoming more westernized, but the caucasus creates a natural land barrier, except along the black sea shore.  Solution - Abkhazia republic.  A pro-Russian buffer zone. 

There is open terrain in the eastern side of the caucasus, but Azerbaijan is a friendly nation and not a concern...yet.  If Azerbaijan becomes more westernized, there will probably be another Russian support for the autonomous pro-russian people who would conveniently be located north of Baku (Guba-Khachmaz).  Or encourage and support populist change from a pro-western administration for a pro-russian one (Abulfaz Elchibey).  Much easier if the latter can be achieved.

Kazakhstan is interesting.  There is no practical way Russia can secure it's border with Kazakhstan.  It has to be pro-russian for border security.

I am not saying any of the above is morally right or just. I am only laying out the military and nation security viewpoint.

Congratulations, you’ve played right into the hands of the Putinista’s whose strategy of convincing Westerners that their unjustified military invasions are necessary is working.  (:)
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Wiz on August 14, 2018, 10:50:39 AM
There seems to be a lot passion going around about world leaders and invasions and such.

Here's my perspective, stripped of the machinations of any specific person or political group:

Russia has a problem.  It's borders are not secure.  Throughout history it has been invaded, with varying degrees of successes and failures.  The formation of the USSR was near perfect for Russia - buffer states on the west, southwest, and south, friendly or insignificant nations (geo-politically speaking) to the southeast.  But the SSR ultimately failed internally.

With the dissolution, Russia still had friendly buffer nations surrounding it.  Then came Maidan, and a new government that was looking to be a part of the EU and NATO.  Most likely NATO would be not open hostilities with Russia and dwindle over the years, and maybe decades later Russia would even join the EU (pure speculation and far fetched, but possible)

However, as the past 2 centuries+ has shown, Russia was invaded by the west.  Swedes, Prussians, French, Germans, etc.  So, for the sake of national interest and security, Russia needs a new buffer zone - Crimea and Donbass.  Straight invasion and takeover is politically difficult.  Encouraging and supporting local separatists efforts is lower risk and achieves the same result.  If it stresses and destabilizes the rest of Ukraine, even better (for Russia).

Sevastopol is critical to Russia - it is the only warm water port Russia has with relatively easy access.  It is not much of use to other nations.  They would desire it, but it is a logistical nightmare to support and is too vulnerable.

Russia could have made Sevastopol an exclave like Kaliningrad, but if the rest of Crimea is in the hands of a not-so-friendly state, then it is Kaliningrad all over again.  Therefore Crimea itself is critical for Russia, in addition to being a handy buffer zone.

Same for the southwest.  Georgia was becoming more westernized, but the caucasus creates a natural land barrier, except along the black sea shore.  Solution - Abkhazia republic.  A pro-Russian buffer zone. 

There is open terrain in the eastern side of the caucasus, but Azerbaijan is a friendly nation and not a concern...yet.  If Azerbaijan becomes more westernized, there will probably be another Russian support for the autonomous pro-russian people who would conveniently be located north of Baku (Guba-Khachmaz).  Or encourage and support populist change from a pro-western administration for a pro-russian one (Abulfaz Elchibey).  Much easier if the latter can be achieved.

Kazakhstan is interesting.  There is no practical way Russia can secure it's border with Kazakhstan.  It has to be pro-russian for border security.

I am not saying any of the above is morally right or just. I am only laying out the military and nation security viewpoint.

Well done young man, writing a long and complete objective analysis of the problems Russian Federation had and still have to face.

In a previous post, I asked that dreamer “Seasoned”, to tell me how many nations have common frontiers with Russian Federation….. he avoid to answer.

Whoever is the leader of the Nation he has to secure the frontiers and security of the country. In my reply also, I mentioned that the USA have only 2, it’s friendly neighbour Canada and Mexico and not 18 different Nations like the Russian Federation. I also posted a map with the US Based surrounding Russia and nobody paid notice.

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,27371.msg482210.html#msg482210

Today it appears that the present leader, Putin, is playing a very hard to balance game with so many enemies gunning for him personally because he is spoiling their plans. Makes no different if he was a KGB colonel or not the fact remains that he is trying to improve the life of the Nation and let’s not forget, he started from Zero.

I just wonder what anybody of us in his place would do for his nation and people of the country?

I think that Putin, most probably will prove to be the best leader the Russian Nation and people ever had.

PS: Have you noticed how fast you received the attacks and accusations from the Brainwashed and programmised people from your own country, because you openly expressed your objective opinion regarding the RF?

Wait and more is coming...... I always get such attacks when I express similar views, telling them the truth, which they don't like and they have an easy accusation: Copy and Paste, like that I have no brain neither I can think on my own, unlike those very clever fanatics and brain dead people.

 >:(

Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 11:22:15 AM
^Sure Wiz. Throw gasoline on a burning fire why don’t you.

We don’t live in the 19th Century which is where this “analysis” belongs.

Our new poster mentioned Sweden and the West as being possible invaders of Russia. Absurd and devoid of any semblance to the reality of the real World today. Today’s Swedish men on average aren’t sure what gender they are or what restroom to use. A good percentage of them are prepared to bend over for their new Muslim masters. And these are the men who are allegedly going to invade Russia?  :ROFL:

The rest of Western Europe is only interested in economic commerce. They have Zero interest in invading Russia. Germany and Italy in particular want out of the sanctions because they’re harming their bottom line.

The notion that Russia needed a buffer zone of Crimea and Donbas is completely absurd. Putin didn’t order these invasions because of military necessity or strategy, he ordered them for his colossal ego. As B/B correctly pointed out it’s about Russian Nationalism. Solely for chauvinism, ego and strutting.

Claiming Putin to be the best Russian Prez ever, what a sad joke. He’s an anachronism of the 19th Century. The rest of Europe lives in the 21st Century where commerce is the order of the day.

Russia has no McDonalds to export. No Apple computers or Microsoft software. No Boeing Aircraft or Harley Davidson. No Dunkin’ Donuts.

Just military conflict.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 14, 2018, 12:35:15 PM
^Sure Wiz. Throw gasoline on a burning fire why don’t you.

We don’t live in the 19th Century which is where this “analysis” belongs.

Our new poster mentioned Sweden and the West as being possible invaders of Russia. Absurd and devoid of any semblance to the reality of the real World today. Today’s Swedish men on average aren’t sure what gender they are or what restroom to use. A good percentage of them are prepared to bend over for their new Muslim masters. And these are the men who are allegedly going to invade Russia?  :ROFL:

The rest of Western Europe is only interested in economic commerce. They have Zero interest in invading Russia. Germany and Italy in particular want out of the sanctions because they’re harming their bottom line.

The notion that Russia needed a buffer zone of Crimea and Donbas is completely absurd. Putin didn’t order these invasions because of military necessity or strategy, he ordered them for his colossal ego. As B/B correctly pointed out it’s about Russian Nationalism. Solely for chauvinism, ego and strutting.

Claiming Putin to be the best Russian Prez ever, what a sad joke. He’s an anachronism of the 19th Century. The rest of Europe lives in the 21st Century where commerce is the order of the day.

Russia has no McDonalds to export. No Apple computers or Microsoft software. No Boeing Aircraft or Harley Davidson. No Dunkin’ Donuts.

Just military conflict.  :coffeeread:

And that ladies and gentlemen is the world according to a sheeple brainwashed by American media.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Manny on August 14, 2018, 12:36:25 PM
There seems to be a lot passion going around about world leaders and invasions and such.

Here's my perspective, stripped of the machinations of any specific person or political group:

Russia has a problem.  It's borders are not secure.  Throughout history it has been invaded, with varying degrees of successes and failures.  The formation of the USSR was near perfect for Russia - buffer states on the west, southwest, and south, friendly or insignificant nations (geo-politically speaking) to the southeast.  But the SSR ultimately failed internally.

With the dissolution, Russia still had friendly buffer nations surrounding it.  Then came Maidan, and a new government that was looking to be a part of the EU and NATO.  Most likely NATO would be not open hostilities with Russia and dwindle over the years, and maybe decades later Russia would even join the EU (pure speculation and far fetched, but possible)

However, as the past 2 centuries+ has shown, Russia was invaded by the west.  Swedes, Prussians, French, Germans, etc.  So, for the sake of national interest and security, Russia needs a new buffer zone - Crimea and Donbass.  Straight invasion and takeover is politically difficult.  Encouraging and supporting local separatists efforts is lower risk and achieves the same result.  If it stresses and destabilizes the rest of Ukraine, even better (for Russia).

Sevastopol is critical to Russia - it is the only warm water port Russia has with relatively easy access.  It is not much of use to other nations.  They would desire it, but it is a logistical nightmare to support and is too vulnerable.

Russia could have made Sevastopol an exclave like Kaliningrad, but if the rest of Crimea is in the hands of a not-so-friendly state, then it is Kaliningrad all over again.  Therefore Crimea itself is critical for Russia, in addition to being a handy buffer zone.

Same for the southwest.  Georgia was becoming more westernized, but the caucasus creates a natural land barrier, except along the black sea shore.  Solution - Abkhazia republic.  A pro-Russian buffer zone. 

There is open terrain in the eastern side of the caucasus, but Azerbaijan is a friendly nation and not a concern...yet.  If Azerbaijan becomes more westernized, there will probably be another Russian support for the autonomous pro-russian people who would conveniently be located north of Baku (Guba-Khachmaz).  Or encourage and support populist change from a pro-western administration for a pro-russian one (Abulfaz Elchibey).  Much easier if the latter can be achieved.

Kazakhstan is interesting.  There is no practical way Russia can secure it's border with Kazakhstan.  It has to be pro-russian for border security.

I am not saying any of the above is morally right or just. I am only laying out the military and nation security viewpoint.

Well-written and raising very valid points. I'd not thought of it in those terms before.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: SL0413 on August 14, 2018, 12:56:23 PM
Please don't use my post as support Putin or justifying Russia's actions.

And as I mentioned the threats to Russia occurred in the past. 

If you look at nations after WWII the ones that were open and friendly to their neighbors generally prospered, and those that were closed did not do so well until they opened to trade and relations and were not aggressive with their border policy.  Africa is another matter entirely - I would and could not predict or justify any actions going on there.  Too much warlord mentality.

The problem with any military action or intervention is that you create instability and, for a lack of a better word, grudges.  A nation in power and military might would make immediate short term gains.  But things tend to bite them in the ass in the long run. 
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 02:39:38 PM

Please don't use my post as support Putin or justifying Russia's actions.

 :ROFL:        :ROFL:         :ROFL:


Welcome to the real World. Now wake up and have some coffee.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 02:48:40 PM
^Sure Wiz. Throw gasoline on a burning fire why don’t you.

We don’t live in the 19th Century which is where this “analysis” belongs.

Our new poster mentioned Sweden and the West as being possible invaders of Russia. Absurd and devoid of any semblance to the reality of the real World today. Today’s Swedish men on average aren’t sure what gender they are or what restroom to use. A good percentage of them are prepared to bend over for their new Muslim masters. And these are the men who are allegedly going to invade Russia?  :ROFL:

The rest of Western Europe is only interested in economic commerce. They have Zero interest in invading Russia. Germany and Italy in particular want out of the sanctions because they’re harming their bottom line.

The notion that Russia needed a buffer zone of Crimea and Donbas is completely absurd. Putin didn’t order these invasions because of military necessity or strategy, he ordered them for his colossal ego. As B/B correctly pointed out it’s about Russian Nationalism. Solely for chauvinism, ego and strutting.

Claiming Putin to be the best Russian Prez ever, what a sad joke. He’s an anachronism of the 19th Century. The rest of Europe lives in the 21st Century where commerce is the order of the day.

Russia has no McDonalds to export. No Apple computers or Microsoft software. No Boeing Aircraft or Harley Davidson. No Dunkin’ Donuts.

Just military conflict.  :coffeeread:

And that ladies and gentlemen is the world according to a sheeple brainwashed by American media.  :ROFL:

If only the guys with the nuclear launch codes were less “brainwashed” than myself the World would be a safer place.   :whistle:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 14, 2018, 04:08:22 PM
Claiming Putin to be the best Russian Prez ever, what a sad joke.

Russia has no McDonalds to export. No Apple computers or Microsoft software. No Boeing Aircraft or Harley Davidson. No Dunkin’ Donuts.

Just military conflict.  :coffeeread:

Since there have been only three Russian Presidents, I think yes Putin is the best so far.

Confederate you forget that Russia is a great and wonderful exporter. Some are self export models and others models require a fair amount of tuning and tweaking as well as cooing and even romancing. Fortunately there is a wide variety of colours, shapes and forms.

Unfortunately they do not come with a shop, maintenance or user manual, so it is Caveat Emptor.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2018, 04:15:01 PM
Claiming Putin to be the best Russian Prez ever, what a sad joke.

Russia has no McDonalds to export. No Apple computers or Microsoft software. No Boeing Aircraft or Harley Davidson. No Dunkin’ Donuts.

Just military conflict.  :coffeeread:

Since there have been only three Russian Presidents, I think yes Putin is the best so far.

Confederate you forget that Russia is a great and wonderful exporter. Some are self export models and others models require a fair amount of tuning and tweaking as well as cooing and even romancing. Fortunately there is a wide variety of colours, shapes and forms.

Unfortunately they do not come with a shop, maintenance or user manual, so it is Caveat Emptor.


When speaking about those types of exports I prefer ones from the Czech Republic or Poland.

I find they’re more reliable and need less maintenance.  :king:
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 14, 2018, 04:25:56 PM
There seems to be a lot passion going around about world leaders and invasions and such.

Here's my perspective, stripped of the machinations of any specific person or political group:

Russia has a problem.  It's borders are not secure.  Throughout history it has been invaded, with varying degrees of successes and failures.  The formation of the USSR was near perfect for Russia - buffer states on the west, southwest, and south, friendly or insignificant nations (geo-politically speaking) to the southeast.  But the SSR ultimately failed internally.

With the dissolution, Russia still had friendly buffer nations surrounding it.  Then came Maidan, and a new government that was looking to be a part of the EU and NATO.  Most likely NATO would be not open hostilities with Russia and dwindle over the years, and maybe decades later Russia would even join the EU (pure speculation and far fetched, but possible)

However, as the past 2 centuries+ has shown, Russia was invaded by the west.  Swedes, Prussians, French, Germans, etc.  So, for the sake of national interest and security, Russia needs a new buffer zone - Crimea and Donbass.  Straight invasion and takeover is politically difficult.  Encouraging and supporting local separatists efforts is lower risk and achieves the same result.  If it stresses and destabilizes the rest of Ukraine, even better (for Russia).

Sevastopol is critical to Russia - it is the only warm water port Russia has with relatively easy access.  It is not much of use to other nations.  They would desire it, but it is a logistical nightmare to support and is too vulnerable.

Russia could have made Sevastopol an exclave like Kaliningrad, but if the rest of Crimea is in the hands of a not-so-friendly state, then it is Kaliningrad all over again.  Therefore Crimea itself is critical for Russia, in addition to being a handy buffer zone.

Same for the southwest.  Georgia was becoming more westernized, but the caucasus creates a natural land barrier, except along the black sea shore.  Solution - Abkhazia republic.  A pro-Russian buffer zone. 

There is open terrain in the eastern side of the caucasus, but Azerbaijan is a friendly nation and not a concern...yet.  If Azerbaijan becomes more westernized, there will probably be another Russian support for the autonomous pro-russian people who would conveniently be located north of Baku (Guba-Khachmaz).  Or encourage and support populist change from a pro-western administration for a pro-russian one (Abulfaz Elchibey).  Much easier if the latter can be achieved.

Kazakhstan is interesting.  There is no practical way Russia can secure it's border with Kazakhstan.  It has to be pro-russian for border security.

I am not saying any of the above is morally right or just. I am only laying out the military and nation security viewpoint.

An interesting perspective though I do not entirely agree.

Russia has repeatedly invaded its Western neighbors as well is maintaining a very aggressive attitude regarding there seizure of the Kuril Islands in the East.

Historically Russia dominated and enslaved Ukraine in one form or the other. Sometimes they point to the fact that Kiev is in fact the birthplace of the Kievan Rus identity. While it moved to Moscow they still thought and think of Kiev as there own.

Bear in mind the entire Donbass conflict started out as little more than a violent conflict between rival ogliarchs and there enforcers.
Title: Re: Is Ukraine a Failed State?
Post by: AvHdB on August 15, 2018, 10:12:01 AM
In an attempt to move back to the core of this thread.

https://www.unian.info/society/10224501-over-400-000-ukrainians-leave-country-since-late-march-2018-for-work-abroad-ukrainianpeopleleaks.html

Over 400,000 Ukrainians leave country since late March 2018 for work abroad – Ukrainianpeopleleaks 15:47, 14 August 2018 UKRAINE 1075 0 Two Ukrainians leave their country every minute in search of a better life. pixabay.com Over 400,000 citizens of Ukraine have left their country since late March 2018 to work abroad. Such a statistics is presented by the Ukrainianpeopleleaks platform, which is an online count tool used to estimate migrant workers leaving Ukraine. Read also Over 360,000 Ukrainians leave their country since March 2018 for work abroad Two Ukrainians leave their country every minute in search of a better life, the platform says, referring to Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs Pavlo Klimkin's words. According to him, 100,000 people leave Ukraine for work abroad every month. The Social Policy Ministry’s estimates are more ambitious and frightening: labor migration has already involved nine million Ukrainians.

Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/society/10224501-over-400-000-ukrainians-leave-country-since-late-march-2018-for-work-abroad-ukrainianpeopleleaks.html