Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Information & Manosphere Discussion Forums
Dating & Marriage With Women From Russia, Ukraine, Belarus & FSU => Dating in the FSU and Other Countries => Topic started by: mendeleyev on July 30, 2009, 05:30:26 AM
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How to be a guest
Returning from the dacha last week as the train approached Moscow, Mrs. Mendeleyeva mentioned that she wanted for us to pay visits to several families before my return to the USA.
One family was arriving from Kaluga to visit us, and we would pay a quick visit to others before my departure. That brought to mind that perhaps a good topic might be "how to be a guest."
So I'll begin with some bullet points, with explanations, and other members can add to them.
- You're in another culture so don't make the assumption that things are done here just like back home.
That seems pretty obvious but even the most experienced traveler or expat can make a misstep.
The driver of the car below assumed that the trolley would slow down for him. The trolley bus driver can't just stop on a dime and hoped the car driver would stop on time.
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(Meeting of assumptions gone wrong.)
An acquaintance was invited to attend an evening dinner party in a Moscow home and related that his hosts seemed offended when he declined to teach them any American folk songs. He felt such a request was silly and said that singing old folks songs was "childish."
I asked if the group had stayed around the table after dinner and had they begun to sing old Russian folk songs while enjoying dessert and tea. "Why yes," he replied, "I was surprised that a young and contemporary group would find such old Russian songs to be of interest."
"Bad assumption" was my response. I've met thousands of Russians of all ages and have yet to meet the person, no matter the age, who didn't know the words to anywhere from 15-20 or even more old folk songs. They're learned at home, in the children's garden (kindergarden), at school clubs and outings, sung around the campfire, while driving, and in homes around the dinner table, etc. Its something seldom found in an American home, but very common in millions of Russian homes. Just in case you weren't paying attention--age doesn't matter.
Even if you don't know true folk songs, fake it! Russian love to learn about other cultures and enjoy singing together on festive occasions. I've been at stylish dinner parties where I've asked to lead and all I could think of was "Happy Birthday" (to no one in particular) and the "Alphabet" song while racking my brain to come up with others. :chuckle:
You'd be amazed at how many non-English speaking Russians know at least parts of those songs and would be delighted to learn the rest of the words and how to form them correctly. Knowing English language songs is a sign of status in certain circles.
He interpreted their request as embarrassing and childish. They also made an unfortunate judgement about him: Lack of interest in one's own home culture in their minds equaled a lack of intelligence, lack of status within his home culture, or both.
Now this doesn't mean that you'll automatically be asked to sing Western folk songs the first time you visit a Slavic family. But then again you might. No kidding.
In the FSU, do as the locals do. Don't make assumptions.
- Be on time, even if nobody is on time for you.
Recently I shared with a Russia media colleague my amusement that in Moscow, capital of Russia, where reminders of the Great Patriotic War (WWII) make it seem like yesterday and where victory parades recalling battles which happened almost 70 years ago still draw hundreds of thousands of participants, there are two popular German language radio stations based in Moscow with respectable numbers of listeners!
"They're punctual" was his humourous retort, before bringing up the reminder that the only time the Germans have been late was in October 1941, the date that Hitler wanted his generals to have completed the German battle for Moscow.
Russians may not be punctual themselves, but they value you for it.
- A bear protects her den and her cubs.
Be very careful about getting on the wrong side of a Russian/Ukrainian lady's family, home, country, culture, etc.
[attachimg=#] Red Army defends Moscow.
She will find it odd if you speak ill of your family, your friends, your culture, your home, etc. But an even more serious offense is if you speak or act disparingly regarding her family, her friends, her country and her culture.
Just as important, she will feel that others are watching her and evaluating her choice. They are. Don't embarrass her.
- Dress for the part.
In the photo below each participant is dressed appropiately for their role in this parade. The Priest is dressed like a priest and the deacon like a deacon. The Солдаты look like soldiers and the policeman like a professional милиционер.
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May we be honest? I'm often embarrassed by Americans who visit Russia and Ukraine. You can spot some American bride hunters from 500 billion yards away--they're the clueless nutcases in shorts and sandals walking next to a girl decked out to the "nines."
It gives me the urge, of which Mrs. Mendeleyeva usually has to restrain me, from confronting the dude with a little sarcasm by asking how he would have looked next to this girl had he decided to dress casually for the day.
Does he really think that she was thrilled to see how he prepared to spend the day with her as much as she prepared for the day with him?
Magnify that a trillion times when going to her home to meet family. Do you understand that this meeting is a job interview?
Dress the part.
How you dress is a reflection of what you think of the person on the date. And what you think of her family.
- Remember who you're there to visit.
Hint: Its not the girl!
You are badly mistaken if thinking you're come to her home to visit the girl. You are there for one reason, and one reason only: For her to guage what her family thinks of you.
Thats it.
Don't ever underestimate the power of influence held by her family. This is a family oriented society--supposedly at least it's one of the excuses you give to friends when they pigeonhole you about why you traveled abroad for a wife. It's not just a cliche to her. It's real, even though you don't yet understand even the half of it.
So be on your best behaviour and let her take the lead. Be polite, make friends with her family and create an atmosphere where her family wants to bring you back again...and again...and again. That is often the key for your success against the guy down the street who has an eye for her too.
- Pay attention to children and the elderly in her home/family.
Russians often judge you by your attitude towards children.
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Russians idolize children. They worship grandmothers. If you can't do both then save yourself the trouble and find a bride from somewhere else in the world. It'll protect your sanity.
A wise man once taught that while the key to a man's heart is through his stomach, the key to a woman's heart is through her children.
What if she doesn't have any children? She does. Trust me.
They may not be her's biologically, but rare is even the young Russian lady who isn't known by at least two titles: Тетя and Крестная мать. Тетя means "aunt" and that can be either/both a literal or honorary title. Крестная мать is "godmother" and also rare is the Russian lady who isn't a Крестная мать to the child of a very close friend.
Unlike Western culture where aunt and godmother may not have much lasting meaning, Тетя and Крестная мать generally have deep meanings and come with long-lasting relationships for your lady.
That means you should strive for a title too--Дядя (uncle). It will carry you a long way and again, may determine why she chooses you over any other guys who may be writing and sending her flowers.
Someday if you're lucky she'll make you a Папа! (Papa = "Dad")
- Who brought the шоколад?
You did. You are the man! You remembered to bring the "zha-ka-lat." While Russians love to taste chocolate from other countries, American milk chocolate usually is a little too sweet for Russian taste buds. Dark chocolate will allow you to conquer Eastern Europe!
There are plenty of fine dark chocolates made in the West. Fill up a suitcase and all the Russia's will be yours! If only Napoleon and Hitler had known.
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It is considered proper to bring a gift for your hosts. That would be for her mother, her father and any grandparents present in the home. As you may not know until your arrival who will be there, it's a good idea to have some sort of discrete generic/all purpose/all gender gift stash for the unexpected. Small things like postcards of your city/state, photo book of your state, etc, do nicely here.
You're not expected to play "Santa Claus" with a bag of goodies, but a nice chocolate can be a family gift, a small bouquet of flowers (3-5-7, etc) for мама (yep, its the same word in Russian) and to honour your lady a larger bouquet or some nice perfume is appropiate for a first visit. Her отец (father) should receive something and that can be as simple as an ink pen with your company logo or a small "shot" glass from your state, etc.
If she has children, yes, by all means but please keep it small and simple. Don't offer to play Santa Claus and don't build the expectation that you are Santa Claus.
Note: A bottle of wine is appropiate but bringing vodka on a first visit can be very tricky. First, it's a signal that you are there to drink. That is not the signal you want to send. Second, a suitor who is there to propose to the girl's father brings vodka traditionally. Are you there to do that on a first visit?
- Whoever said you shouldn't discuss religion and politics was misinformed.
You've been fed a line that Russian's are interested in politics. Russians are ambivalent about Russian politics because they don't believe their opinions mean much.
But don't mistake that for disinterest.
Your Russian wife is not disinterested in American (or Canadian or British) politics, she just doesn't understand it and her legal status may not stimulate great interest in it either. Again, don't mistake her comments that she's not interested for a declaration of disinterest.
If you want to see how interested the supposedly disinterested Russians are about politics, just introduce the topic and tell a joke. 5 hours later, as long as tea and vodka are in supply, the topic will have continued. And that is disinterest?
Fact is, regarding both politics and religion, I'm betting that those subjects are brought up on a lot of first visits! Russians hear stories of weird cults in the West and some family member may decide to test your mettle.
They really are interested in your view of politics. In fact, I'll boldly take that further:
1) They're interested in your view of politics in your home country.
2) They're interested in your view of politics in Russia (or Ukraine).
I'll bet the farm on it and win 99.99999999% of the time.
Regarding religion: always be honest about your views. Look for a lady who has similar views. Don't be misled however by young girls of pre-child bearing years who brush off religion. Those are the first ones who have a miracalous conversion the moment that little clear line turns blue in the $10 home pregnancy test kit she purchased at Walgreens. Next stop is the nearest Orthodox church for confession and life as you know it has changed permanently.
See our thread on Orthodoxy here at RUA and if you've been told by others than religion has died out in the FSU, then please call the Kremlin and inform President Medvedev. He's under the impression, after all he does live there and you only visit, that not only is the population regaining interest, but in Russia's two major religions (Orthodoxy and Islam) the Russian government uses the term "explosion" to describe the growth of faith especially in the under 30 age group. According to the government 67% of Russians consider themselves as Orthodox "believers" and that's up from 51% less than 9 years ago.
You're actually safer to go for a lady over 30, who has already experienced childbirth, if you want to be certain your future wife will be relatively uninterested in religion.
So, to recap: its okay to talk about religion and politics. But don't overdo it and don't get into theological or political debates.
Think about this: There is a great amount of tension now between the USA/UK/Canada and Russia. One of my fellow members of the Yahoo Russian Answers team recently described his (mistaken) views on how NATO supposedly plans to encircle Russia with nuclear weapons aimed at the heart of Russia. He then went on to share his view on the USA's bombing of Japan saying that the only reason it was done was because the American Army was lazy.
Notwithstanding his ignornace of the Japanese war front, there are lots of worries that Russian folk on the street have about the West, and in particular the leaders of NATO--USA, UK, and Canada.
Before her father and uncles, her mother and aunts, and her cousins and friends talk her out of the idea of building a relationship with you, don't listen to those who say you shouldn't talk about it. Be gracious, point out the good things you've learned about Russia/Ukraine, and have a reasoned approach to how things work in your country. Build friendships in her family by demonstrating you have the abiltiy to think about those things.
Note to those who think that bashing their own country will earn points: That is foolish. Russians don't want a heated debate with you, but they don't want you to be a pushover either. If you think your country is weak and wrong, then why the heck would you want their daughter to move there with you? Use your God given brain for once. Heck, try it twice in one week to see how it feels.
You can admit your country has shortcomings. Russians certainly know it about their own government. But they don't want you to criticize their country and they don't feel comfortable hearing you criticize your own home either.
[attachimg=#] Read the sign, be logical.
In summary, don't be afraid to discuss. But don't be drawn into an argument. Give compliments about her culture even if you don't like her government.
Don't let a short skirt blind you to potential future trainwrecks regarding things like politics or religion. There are other short skirts all across the country. Use the big head for decision making.
- Don't be afraid to try new things.
Ever had scrambled eggs with fish? Em, with the bones still in the fish? With no advance warning?
There are some things you should not try in Russia/Ukraine. Scrambled eggs with fish and bones is worth avoiding.
But there are a lot of interesting things worth trying for the first time! Like Kvas. In the photo below you see a KVAS stand. It's basically a small tank pulled by a trailer and filled with a concontion that Russians think is a cola. Russians will tell you that its not alcoholic. Right, and my godmother is the tooth fairy too.
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You won't like it, I promise. But you really should try it! Its well, interesting. Call it an acquired taste. But if you work at it, you'll acquire one! Eventually.
KVAS is a mildly fermented bread drink made from stale rye bread. Yum! It can be purchased in 1 liter bottles in markets but the most popular way to enjoy KVAS is from a sidewalk tank. Why, who knows how long it's been standing there...days...weeks....and did we mention "fermented."
The legal drinking age in Russia, as if anybody cared, is 16. That is why you'll have to fight your way thru a line of 11 year old boys in order to get your own glass of KVAS.
Did somebody say "glass" of the substance? Mendeleyev will never forget his very first KVAS experience. It was in Moscow and my (future) wife and I were out on a Saturday afternoon. I was a "KVAS virgin." That all changed that fateful day.
Moscow has modernized the health rules but in those days right after the fall of the Soviet Union you just shared a metal (tin) drinking cup with the other 12 million residents of Moscow when drinking KVAS. That gave me pause. I watched the little babushka wipe off the cup with her apron (it was stained from a million earlier wipes) and then she held that cup up to the spigot and a muddly brown liquid appeared as if by magic.
Great! "Dear God," I thought to myself. Yes, "Dear God," suddenly dawned on me. So, I made the sign of the cross (I'm practicing Orthodox) and gulped it down in one motion. "You should savor it" were the words directed at me from the gorgeous creature who had broken my "KVAS virgin status."
(Oh, Right. I'm going to savor a muddy brown liquid made of stale bread crumbs and which has been standing out in the street in a metal tank for God knows how long and served by a lady who seemed to be "shower challenged" and dispensed in a tin cup shared by the whole world but wiped off between uses by her dirty apron.)
So of course after she said, "you should savor it," I calmly responded with something close to "wow, that was tasty. Man, I was thirsty. Good stuff. Lets' do that again. But at another time. Okay...where is that Metro station?"
We have a KVAS recipe here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,1996.msg66364.html#msg66364) in the RUA recipes thread. Most Russians make it at home and KVAS recipes are held as valuable secrets with each family having their own twist on how to make it perfectly.
Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to try something new. You'll have lots of opportunities and most of what you try, whether its a new food, KVAS, or an evening at the Ballet, will be an experience you'll always treasure. :)
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Hahaha...love this article. It says things that I believe are my secrets to enjoying travelling ANYWHERE!
In the FSU, do as the locals do. Don't make assumptions.
Travelling anywhere, this is a good thing to remember and will enhance your travelling experience.
I never got to hear any songs, but this reminds me of the Swedish "Toast" while drinking. They sing their toasts. When drinking with Swedes and they start to sing toasts you will impress them if you can remember a few lines of any English drinking song for sure.
May we be honest? I'm often embarrassed by Americans who visit Russia and Ukraine. You can spot some American bride hunters from 500 billion yards away--they're the clueless nutcases in shorts and sandals walking next to a girl decked out to the "nines."
To paraphrase, dress as the locals do as well! This also helps you to avoid the tourist scams and pickpockets. If you dress like a tourist you get treated like one. I always try to blend in myself. If that means all the tourists around me are in shorts and might be more comfortable and I have pants and a jacket on, oh well. Also gives you a chance to get the Russian price for some things too, as long as you dont open your mouth.
1) They're interested in your view of politics in your home country.
2) They're interested in your view of politics in Russia (or Ukraine).
The one sentence that you will hear is "What do you think of Russia?" This open ended question can lead anywhere of course. You can compare Russia to home, Russia to other places you have travelled. You can talk about Russian people, food, places, art, architechure and politics. One thing that can help you avoid any pitfalls in politics discussions is to seperate the politics and the people. If you can say something like "As a Canadian I do not like some of the politics of Russia, but the people are wonderful and welcomeing" and mean it, you will find yourself in a fun discussion of politics that is not insulting to anyone because as people you are outside the politics. Mendy...would that be your reaction as well?
Wheeee...new things...caviar with breakfast. Meat jelly. Black porrige. Seeing a hockey game in person and the only drink available is Kvas! (Boy I missed beer that day) Lots of smoked, dried fish. Smoked uncooked bacon. Mors. (Yummy!)
As a side note...does anyone ever mix Kvas with other alcohol? I keep trying kvas but haven't acquired the taste for it yet...I now have the urge to try it WITH something.
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I went to a Russian festival last summer. They had 16 0z. cans of KVAS and I just had to try some. I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't what was in my mouth.
BTW, it was the same brand as shown in Mendy's recipe. I even thought, maybe it's because it's in an aluminum can ....
Anyway, I could hardly spit it out in front of all those people around me. The saving grace was that it was a hot day. The KAVAS was cold and I was thirsty. After nursing it for awhile it did kind of grow on me. If I had to describe it, I'd have to say it was like ginger ale or 7-UP that had rye bread soaking in it. I still have the empty can as a souvenir of my first taste of KVAS.
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EXCELLENT posting overall -
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How to be a guest
Note: A bottle of wine is appropriate but bringing vodka on a first visit can be very tricky. First, it's a signal that you are there to drink. That is not the signal you want to send. Second, a suitor who is there to propose to the girl's father brings vodka traditionally. Are you there to do that on a first visit?
My experience that a bottle (pint rather than fifth) of expensive bourbon is GREATLY appreciated by the papa of the house. I'm talking about single barrel 95-proof aged 8 or more year stuff. Lables like Woodford Reserve, Knobb Hill, Blantons or 1792 Ridgemont Reserve. You absolutely can't find such a product in Russia and it gives him something he can proudly share with his friends and neighbors.
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Mila's father really enjoyed his Canadian rye whiskey that I brought him. And we only tasted it when I was there. He still has some even and rations it out sparingly it is so rare in Penza. It did not mean time to drink really. That happened ANYWAY.
Mila's mother enjoyed trying the Canadian ice wine I brought her, although she thought it was TOO sweet. She ended up deciding it would be good to put into tea and finished it off.
The second time I visited I met Mila's sister and father. We all met at sisters bf's family dacha for banya and food. At one point they were feeding me vodka and food and someone asked "What do Canadian's make to drink?". I listed beer, wine, rye whiskey and vodka. I mentioned that one vodka is even made from iceberg water too. They were impressed with that and exclaimed..."Why didn't you bring THAT! We want!". I told them that bringing vodka to a Russian would be like bringing a glass of water to a drowning man. They laughed.
Next visit they all got to try Iceberg Vodka. ;)
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Mendy...maye you should have also mentioned the elaborate spreads of food that you will encounter in peoples homes as well?
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Froid, I will. Thanks! tiphat
My experience that a bottle (pint rather than fifth) of expensive bourbon is GREATLY appreciated by the papa of the house. I'm talking about single barrel 95-proof aged 8 or more year stuff. Lables like Woodford Reserve, Knobb Hill or 1792 Ridgemont Reserve. You absolutely can't find such a product in Russia and it gives him something he can proudly share with his friends and neighbors.
Skakespear, good point! Each New Year's I make sure that all our male uncles and cousins (father is deceased) have a pint of Kentucky whiskey. That was originally a request from one cousin and it was, as you say, a great idea. I'd probably be lynched upon arrival now if I didn't have any as New Years gifts. :laugh:
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-You are the most interesting man in the world--at least for now.
One of my favourite Russian movies is Папа, based on Alexandr Galych’s play “Matrosskaya Tishina.” “Papa” is the story of a Jewish father who dreamed of seeing his son Dodik perform on a stage in front of huge audiences. The movie treks their journey to Moscow and the beginnings of fame, but quickly the war changes everything and his father sadly loses his life in a Nazi concentration camp while on the Eastern Front, Dodik, who has been drafted into the Army, loses an arm and his dream of playing the violin.
You can see that movie with English subtitles here (http://russianreport.wordpress.com/russian-movies-%d0%ba%d0%b8%d0%bd%d0%be%d1%84%d0%b8%d0%bb%d1%8c%d0%bc%d1%8b/movie-%d0%bf%d0%b0%d0%bf%d0%b0-dad/). "Papa" is set in a very small Russian village and one day "David," a character played by Yegor Beroyev, returns to visit the village. David was a former resident who immigrated to Palestine and upon his return is the talk of the town and centre of attention. Why? Because he had been to the outside and the townspeople lived that experience thru his eyes.
For the residents in this little village the character David was the most interesting man in the world. Now I don't wish to impart the notion that Russian's cannot or do not travel. They love to travel! The truth is however that most Russians will be limited by visa and money constraints to what Russians call the "near abroad." That is code speak for the other former Soviet republics around Russia's borders.
Whether you've been to Jamaica, Mexico, Egypt, or to West Virginia, you're a world traveler from across the ocean sitting right there in their living room and every neighbor is jealous.
So go ahead and share if the timing is right. Don't brag, but don't be afraid to share if invited either. Be sure to paint pictures and be descriptive with your words. Saying that "Paris sucked" will be a disappointment. What they wanted to hear was details about sights, sounds, and cultures.
Remember the travel angle when thinking of gifts. A small box of chocolates from Heathrow airport suddenly makes the chocolate larger than life because of where you found it. A wood carving you purchased on a Utah Indian reservation becomes an item of great mystery because of it's origins.
- Be a good tourist.
The Russian word for tourist is турист. They know you're not a native from lots of clues: clothing, shoes, hair style, the way you walk, etc. So since you won't be able to hide it, be a good diplomat for your country.
Show respect for the people and the culture. You may not like it that all the heat in a bus is recycled into the engine compartment. Its not as comfortable when the primary heat source is body heat from passengers. But that is what keeps engine blocks on older buses from freezing and cracking in extreme cold.
One day a few years back Mrs. Mendeleyeva and I spotted some watermelon at a corner street kiosk near our apartment house. Russians eat very seasonally like American's did at one time. It's a factor of transport networks and availability. We hadn't seen any watermelon for weeks so late in September, so sure enough, there was a long line and we had to wait our turn.
This was just after I had undergone a surgery for an issue with my back and I felt lucky to be out walking, and certainly in no mood to bend over, lift heavy items, etc. While waiting Mrs Mendeleyeva turned and asked me if the Metro tickets we had purchased earlier were in my jacket pocket.
Knowing they were, I fished around in both pockets in order to hand them over to the family "ticket master." In pulling out the tickets a loose piece of paper fell to the ground. It was a useless item of no value and while normally I'd have bent over to fetch it, on this occasion I decided to let it go.
In only a matter of seconds I felt something like wood thumping on my shoulder. Turning slowly to see what was happening I looked into the stern eyes of an old pensioner дедушка (grandfather). Easily in his late 70s to mid 80's, he thumped me again, gently but enough to certain make his case. Pointing to the ground he asked whether I planned to pick up the little piece of paper?
Truthfully, I hadn't planned on it but realized that I was now marching to the drumbeat of an old man who wanted me to respect his city, his country, and his culture. The way he spoke I knew he assumed I was Russian and to avoid being chided I started to bend over, although it was painful, because I do respect people like him and the sacrifices his generation made in some very difficult years.
My lovely wife beat me to it and then proceeded to scold me for bending over while apologizing and explaining graciously to the дедушка about my back. His stern face softened, but I got the point. To paraphrase the American regional idiom, "Don't mess with Texas."
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Fill in the trash blanks:
The red label reads алюминий: a-l-u-m- - - - -. Do you know this word?
The yellow label says пластик: p-l--s-t- -k. What is this word?
The blue label may be difficult. Do you know what бумага; b-y-m-a-g-a means? Hint: Its not glass but it does represent things made from something found in a forest.
When traveling, remember that you're more than a tourist. You're a diplomat for your country, your culture, and other men on this adventure. Act responsibility.
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So far no one has mentioned "Balzam", (БАЛЪЗАМ), adding a little Balzam to kvass makes it almost drinkable.
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Kvas is russian root beer but tastes like liquid rye bread.
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Ironically...both Kirill and Mila HATE Root beer. They say it tastes like medicine. I buy it now because I am assured that Kirill wont drink it all on me. ;)
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Very good (and entertaining) post! You're really describing something that has been lost in the West...the "art" of courtship,what our grandfathers had to do "back in the day", just to get a date!
I might add, that if there is something unique about your region, it may make a nice gift for the 'rents...for instance, I live close to the Bourbon region, so a pint of Kentucky bourbon that can only be found here would be a unique and thoughtful gift for papa. Or, being from a farm family, a jar of mom's homemade preserves for mama (along with flowers, natch)...it will say something about you and your background, and help you to stand out from the crowd...
On the subject of children...some of the RW I am currently writing go absolutely NUTS when I send them a picture of me and my youngest nephew...he was only a month old at the time, and I'm holding him and giving him a kiss on the forehead..now I know why! :)
Again, great post! I guess we should keep in mind what one of my old bosses told me..."It's all about the show".....
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My experience that a bottle (pint rather than fifth) of expensive bourbon is GREATLY appreciated by the papa of the house. I'm talking about single barrel 95-proof aged 8 or more year stuff. Lables like Woodford Reserve, Knobb Hill, Blantons or 1792 Ridgemont Reserve. You absolutely can't find such a product in Russia and it gives him something he can proudly share with his friends and neighbors.
My trip to Europe revealed that whiskey-loving Europeans are absolutely nutty over Bourbon and Tennessee whiskey...I would think that a pint from the distillery (one that even we can't buy in stores) would be prized...even in Ireland, home of Jameson's and Bushmills, pints of small-batch Woodford, Bakers, and Maker's Mark were accepted with almost embarrassing gratitude (and rounds of free drinks!)...
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Kvas is russian root beer but tastes like liquid rye bread.
Kvas is better than beer, it is at least not bitter :) I wonder more not that people drink kvas, but when people drink beer. Or smoke, or drink any kind of alcohol - it's all not tasty, not healthy, but people still doing it a lot.
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Alenika, Mrs. Mendeleyeva encouraged me to kick the cola/soda habit (successfully). KVAS is not a cola, and she says that KVAS is healthy, almost like a nutritional drink. Do you think the same?
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"Mendy,"
Would it be possible for you to touch on the customs and expectations about the gift giving for family and relatives at a first meeting? What are your thoughts on the paradigm of expectations, perceptions and 'value' of the gifts? At what point is the newbie expected to make that leap from the simple initial gift to the more intimate and expensive ones?
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- Forget about the "carbs"--at least for now.
Dacha life is really good to me. In the two weeks we spent at our summer dacha just recently I had the good fortune to drop 11 lbs. A constant diet of fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts and berries really recharges the body.
We did have fish from the river but not at every meal. Of course a Russian table always has bread. At every meal bread is present.
What is bread in Russia? Everything.
That is not an empty statement. In Russia and Ukraine, bread is the most important foodstuff. Bread is a notion of hospitality. Bread is life. A Russian proverb says: "Bread is the head of everything."
Most bread in Russia, unlike bread in the West, is loaded with nutrition, brimming with vitamins and minerals. You can feel from its weight that there is more to this bread than just some processed flour.
In a Russian home, without bread there is no breakfast, no lunch and no dinner.
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хлеб и соль (bread and salt) is the traditional way of greeting guests in Russian tradition and while your hosts will not meet you in traditional costumes with a literal bread and salt presentation for your visit, the idea is the same. You are a guest and as such have been invited to break bread and enjoy their hospitality.
Even if you don't eat bread normally at home, you should here when a guest. Its not just on the table "in case" or as filler, bread is truly part of the meal. Sometimes butter is spread over the bread and then topped with caviar (very tasty!) or perhaps with butter and then a slice of cheese or with a slice of fresh cucumber or a sliced pickle.
Eat up! When Russians share their bread with you, its a sign of acceptance.
- Smile when it means something.
Undoubtedly you've heard that Russians don’t smile. That is not totally true and so perhaps an explanation is in order.
Usually all it takes is to be confronted by just one or two unfriendly or disengaged Russian sales clerks or airline employees and the stereotype that Russians seldom smile is forever burned into your memory.
Russians are well aware that they don't smile often, as do Americans, for example. That doesn't bother them either. In fact, excess smiling in Russian culture means that you're up to something.
Now this is not a tutorial on how to walk around frowning and appearing to be depressed. We'd be speaking truthfully in saying that Russians are surprised to learn that we Westerners think they frown all the time!
When asked about Americans and why we smile so much of the time, Russians find it difficult to reconcile the idea of politeness with smiling or even friendliness with a smile!
Russians smile when something brings them pleasure or makes them happy. They do not even think of a connection between a smile and being friendly.
For us from the outside, it's easy to nod and smile at a complete stranger on the Metro. That person however may be wondering why you've targeted them and what is "up your sleeve" so to speak. Now true that as more and more Westerners have brought our non-stop teeth flashing smiles to the FSU, the residents here have grown used to our oddness and aren't as puzzled about it any longer. But that doesn't mean they're about to do the same.
You may notice too that when Russians do smile they don't like to show their teeth. While we wonder if they do so out of fear of revealing bad dental work, the truth is that Russians equate broad smiles with full teeth exposure to be similar to certain zoo animals that do the same! Russians fear broad smiling with generous exposure of teeth as a sign of something fake, like candy.
In summary, a Russian smile will always have a reason behind it that is clear to everyone present. That’s why excess smiling in Russia is a sign of insanity. A Russian smile accents the mouth lines and dimples, but minimizes teeth.
[attachimg=#] Lovely Slavic smile!
Russians have idiomatic expressions about smiling, such as: Идеалом русской женщины является неулыбчивая женщина. That is translated as “a perfect Russian woman is an unsmiling woman.” Now allow me to translate that more literally into a phrase more easy to understand. It means "the ideal Russian woman is a woman who isn't insane!"
That is good to know when you notice that your friend isn't smiling. Unless you sense that something is wrong, she's probably "normal" and that is a comforting thought! :)
So, should you try not to smile while in Ukraine and Russia? Well, smiling is so ingrained in our culture that no matter how hard you may try, this is something you'll do from habit.
So rather than tell you to change, hopefully this is encouragement to help you understand the implications of your smiles...and also to help you understand what it means when a Russian does (or doesn't) smile back at you.
Just keep an eye out for Russians who smile excessively. They're either crazy or up to something! :chuckle:
"Here's smiling at you kid!"
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Mendy, I am truly enjoying this thread...and you are answering a LOT of questions before they are asked.
On smiling...when I was in college, FSU (no, not THAT FSU, the one in Tallahassee, FL) had an exchange program with Moscow Art...I made friends witha few inner city Moscow Russian guys who wanted to do something "very American"...so we took them to Mardi Gras! Needless to say, that was quite an experience for all of us!
A few weeks later, one, Vladimir, having returned to the USSR (this was still in the Soviet era), sent a letter to one of my friends...he told us, since returning to Moscow, he and Iggy were constantly being given hard stares from everyone, including the police...seems they were still experiencing some euphoria from their experience, and couldn't get the "sh*t-eating grins" off their faces....everyone thought they were up to something!
Thanks again for the great posts :bow:...keep 'em coming! ;D
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Kvas is better than beer, it is at least not bitter :) I wonder more not that people drink kvas, but when people drink beer. Or smoke, or drink any kind of alcohol - it's all not tasty, not healthy, but people still doing it a lot.
So let's see. . . . . . . .
According to your opinions, people should give up :scared0005:
1) sex before marriage
2) beer
3) smoking
4) drinking any kind of alcohol
:bow:
Brass, life as you know it is about to get pretty dull :ROFL:
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According to your opinions, people should give up :scared0005:
1) sex before marriage
- I never said this :-) I was saying that people should be free and do what they wish to do. While you are saying that they necessarily have to sleep with anyone. Exaggerating your words of course :-) But all what we (mendeleyev, Rasputin) were saying in other topic is that this is personal choice of couple when they decide to have sex, and it was you who was saying they have to do it during first 5 dates no matter what. What I say is to have only one rule - "have no rules" when are in search for life partner.
2) beer -
------ hm it's matter of taste. I said it's not tasty and bitter. It is really bitter, isn't it?
3) smoking
------ yes, better to quit of course :-) But until person doesn't hinder me, I don't care :-)
4) drinking any kind of alcohol
------ again - I said it's not tasty, not teling anyone what they have to do.
Brass, life as you know it is about to get pretty dull :ROFL:
------- why? Are you going to tell him and other men here again what they have to do and how they have to live which is going to lead to dull life? :smokin:
You have interesting reading skills. Did you use Ed assistance to understand my (RW) writing in this way? :innocent: If so - don't use it anymore, he is not capable to see all RW :P
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Chill out Alenika -
I was just "pulling your (and Brass's) chain" a bit
I am pulling yours ;)
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"Mendy,"
Would it be possible for you to touch on the customs and expectations about the gift giving for family and relatives at a first meeting? What are your thoughts on the paradigm of expectations, perceptions and 'value' of the gifts? At what point is the newbie expected to make that leap from the simple initial gift to the more intimate and expensive ones?
I'm still curious to hear some of the more experienced and expat folks opinions on this. I think it could lead to some valuable insight for the newbies and the experienced alike.
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Alenika, Mrs. Mendeleyeva encouraged me to kick the cola/soda habit (successfully). KVAS is not a cola, and she says that KVAS is healthy, almost like a nutritional drink. Do you think the same?
Yes I think the same :-) It is healthy if done in the correct way. Those in bottles are not always good though. About kvas being like beer - depends how long you keep it. The best is to put it in fridge very soon, when it is like just carbonated drink, without alcohol. Actually that alcohol drink some describe above is a spoiled kvas (spoiled juice would taste similar for example), normal kvas is mild and tasty. Better to do it yourself. We do kvas at home sometimes, but not classical one from rye bread, we do it from beets with adding yeast (and sugar) as don't have anything better than that here in Georgia. Where mom came from they did yeast themselves too.
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"Mendy,"Would it be possible for you to touch on the customs and expectations about the gift giving for family and relatives at a first meeting? What are your thoughts on the paradigm of expectations, perceptions and 'value' of the gifts? At what point is the newbie expected to make that leap from the simple initial gift to the more intimate and expensive ones?
Eric, sorry wasn't trying to ignore you and thank you for the question.
- Gifts on the first visit.
Some of you have read the story of our engagement and marriage and know that a young lady named Оксана (Oxana) had a role in helping me understand how traditional courtship works in the FSU. Oxana was a very lovely girl herself and was my assistant at Moscow's Radio Mayak when I was posted in Russia.
It took some effort but after getting to the point where I was granted the first visit to my potential girlfriend's home, I asked Oxana what to do about gifts. The advice received from Oxana was priceless.
Here is what she advised:
1) You are a guest and should bring nothing more than what is appropiate for any guest. Forget about courtship and concentrate on being a good guest. Don't over-do it on the first visit.
2) Since your lady friend is an adult you will bring her a small gift, but you must mirror that for her mother. No matter who owns the home or who lives in the home, the oldest female relative is considered the "hostess" for the evening.
Following her advice I took a modest flower bouquet for my lady and a similar but slightly smaller bouquet for her mother since they lived together. A moderate size box of Belagian dark chocolate was also planned and since I knew that a friend of the family would drop by I included a very small box (2-3 pieces) of chocolates for the friend.
As her father had died when she was a teenager I didn't have to take a gift for a male on the first meeting.
In later meetings with her extended family I would take modest gifts for cousins and aunts and small things for the children. American chewing gum was not as plentiful then as it is now (it still makes a good child gift) and one of my daughters shipped me some Disney ink pens/pencils when she knew I needed some things for children. But those things were not for the first meeting.
It is really important that men do not try to play Santa Claus. I've heard of guys buying lingerie for a first visit. Totally presumptuous and culturally inappropiate in my opinion, as would be jewelry, etc. Those are okay once you've established a face to face relationship and are moving forward in your plans to be together. But if you walk into the first meeting acting like an international diamond dealer, then what do you offer on the second, third and fourth meetings?
There is also something else which is important. What you are doing is really a balancing act of international diplomacy. Eventually you may wish to take this lady off to your home country so you don't want to make it difficult for her family to participate in the "diplomacy" process.
Here is what I mean by that: Diplomats woo each other. They exchange not only information but also gifts and tokens of appreciation. So if you walk into her home on the first meeting with a diamond tennis bracelet for your lady, a pearl broach for Mama, a gold watch for Papa, and new skateboards for the children, then what are they, on perhaps limited incomes, supposed to do to show their appreciation?
All you've said in the situation above is "look, I have more stuff than you do so that makes me the hero."
Russians don't like that kind of hero and if your girl does, you've got not a future marriage partner but a future asset protection issue about 2-3 years down the road.
When it comes to gift giving, for a Russian courtship to work, you need to allow her family the ability to reciprocate. So if your gifts are "over the top" then you have shut her family out of the process. You'll lose a good girl this way because the only way she can save face for her family is to end the relationship. You'll win a gold digger this way and never know the difference until you and your divorce lawyer are knee deep in....
[attachimg=#]
Imagine the poster above reading "man who is patient and doesn't over-do gifts wins the battle!'
Okay, that isn't really what it reads but the idea is about being patient and strong in the air to win.
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Mendy,
I totally agree on going easy on the gift giving idea, especially at the beginning.
Funny story on my side, but you would have to have made trips to the FSU more than 10 years ago to appreciate it, I had been to Russia and had watched women struggle to open tin cans with those old WWII style "punch and swing" can openers. I had arranged for a flat where I would do some cooking to save myself a little money, to that end I bought a nice KitchenAid geared can opener at WalMart before I left home. (prolly less than $10). One evening I was entertaining my lady, (now wife) and she saw me open a can of something with the Kitchen Aid.
Between the can opener, and the large double pack of Skippy Extra Crunchy peanut butter, I think that's when she truly fell in love. On subsequent trips I made sure every female in the family had a nice new can opener for their kitchen.
Initial gifts do not need to be large or expensive, just thoughtful.
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"Mendy, and JB,"
Thanks for the thoughts. I had a bit of an atypical situation the last time around and I treated it as such. Additionally over the years I've heard of a wide variation of thoughts on it but rarely from those who have spent a lot of time there. I think the insight you both have provided has been invaluable.
Thanks
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JB, we had a similar experience in that I had been forewarned about can openers to took one (manual, but nice) in my things for moving. My first landlord provided a once per week housekeeper who did 3 things for me:
1- Cleaned the apartment.
2- The laundry. I would have done it myself but she refused to show me how to use the confusing washing machine.
3- Steal anything not nailed down.
It wasn't long before the can opener had disappeared and of course the housekeeper had no idea what had happened to it. So for a short time I had to endure the kind you mentioned until a replacement could be sent. The replacement was discovered by my future wife and so new replacements needed to be acquired! :chuckle:
I ended up having to repack all loose small items like batteries, medicines, books, etc, back in suitcases and putting the little locks back on just in order to keep my things from walking out each week.
About a year or so later I did find some nice kitchen things at a very nice shop along Kutuzovskiy Prospect.
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Eric, glad to have been of service my friend.
Of course as a relationship progresses the level of gift giving can change, but I usually caution against it changing too much because there must always be the ability for her family to contribute back your direction in order to feel like this is a equal effort with you in making their daughter happy.
This is one of the reasons why I'm personally against engagement rings for FSU ladies. They aren't expected as her culture doesn't do it, and as such it could be seen as flaunting wealth. Mrs. Mendeleyeva didn't want one and so after marriage I ended up a few years later surprising her with a nice anniversary diamond.
I know your situation more fully and you did some pretty cool things with taking foods and helping make the meal preparations more of an "international" event. That is both thoughtful and fun.
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Mendy
I see some similar items that could be found in both countires concerning visiting, as well as a lot of usefull information for those not accustomed to another country. :)
A question on Dacha's or in our word cottages, you have mentioned them twice now. From a search it seems they are more country homes with fruit and vegetable gardens people tend. Here I would naturally assume a place on the water, when I hear someone mention one. Are these Dacha's on the water, or more likely to be just located in the countryside, and may or may not have water near them. ?
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We've moved the Dacha posts, very interesting, over to the Russian Life 101 thread.
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,7356.msg109050.html#msg109050
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Footnote on Smiling.
A true East meets West story about smiling:
When the Canadian unit of McDonalds first began to open the first restaurants in Russia, the staff was taught to smile and warmly greet customers. Needless to say, this was a disaster and the Canadian and American McDonalds trainers had to quickly rethink that strategy.
Step into a McD today and your cashier will likely skip the smile and hello to look you straight in the eye and ask for your order. Polite, but sans smile.
Those trainers also made note of how difficult it was to train their new Russian employees about good customer service. One Russian young male employee could finally hold it no longer. It seemed that he'd had enough of being nice to customers, treating customers with respect, etc. That was a new concept coming out of the old Soviet system.
Exasperated he exclaimed, "why do we have to be nice to the customers. After all, we're the ones with the hamburgers!"
Today McDonalds is the largest private landowner in Russia, McDonalds has revitalized the beef farming industry and Russia is in some years an exporter of beef, and McDonald's now operates 103 restaurants in Moscow, Moscow Region, St. Petersburg, Nizhny Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Samara, and Kazan.
Not only does McDonald's in Russia serve more than 200,000 customers every day, but, since opening on January 31, 1990, McDonald's has served more than 66 million Russian Big Mac sandwiches.
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Not only does McDonald's in Russia serve more than 200,000 customers every day, but, since opening on January 31, 1990, McDonald's has served more than 66 million Russian Big Mac sandwiches.
Ok, so, I guess you're saying that the lack of obesity in Russia is a temporary situation... ::)
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And do they REALLY have McBorscht?
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- A valued guest is served a great meal!
In the west we mark special occasions by taking family members to a nice restaurant. Eating out is part of western culture.
In Russia, eating out for a special occasion could be a sign of disrespect. After all, if a guest is important, why wouldn't we want to prepare a bountiful meal and invite family and friends over to enjoy the meal, the tea afterward, and the hours of laughter and conversation following the meal in the most warm and intimate setting of all--a home?
They key to understanding this concept is the word дом (home). The concept of дома, "at home" is the most cherished way a Russian can entertain a guest.
You need to understand this: WHERE you entertain a UW/RW will mean something. Whether convenient or not, where you eat with her sends a message.
Now obviously at first you may wish to meet somewhere for tea for her and coffee for you. That is understandable. But if you are spending time on a daily basis with her and don't soon receive an invitation to a home meal with other members of her family present (to check you out), then she's being a cordial and polite tour guide and once you return home she might either taper off contact or send a "Dear John" email.
Professor Anna Pavlovskaya reminds us that for Russians, "the celebration of a family meal is a specific and important ritual (family meal = home meal). Eating together is a sign of friendship which takes your relationships onto a new level."
She goes on to write that, "a well laid table is a sign of respect for guests." Even in times of hardship Russians will find a way to provide a well provisioned table even if it meant they might go hungry after guests have departed. "That is why a Russian host will be offended if a guest eats only a little....as if their admiration and respect is being turned down."
[attachimg=#]
Once you've established a relationship with a lady be sure to invite her along with MEMBERS OF HER FAMILY to your apartment. I know you want to be alone. Its just not as romantic to gaze across the candlelight, holding a glass of wine, while looking into her father's eyes. :chuckle:
It's not romantic for you, that is. But to her, you have bestowed a great honour on her family. You have become the man! You have scored BIG POINTS, more points than you'd have scored by having her alone....by a multiplier of thousands.
Why go part way when you can hit a home run? Get the whole family involved in your courtship. They will be anyway, so why not get them on your side!
[attachimg=#]
- Having guests is important to a Russian host.
An ultimate sign of endearing friendship is the presence of others who are willing to gather in your home for tea, a meal, etc. It is a great honour to have a foreigner in your home. That is why I worry when a man returns with what he thinks is a good trip report, but he either never met her family at all, or did so under only the most brief of circumstances.
Remember that there are benchmarks here which make it normal that over a short period of time you will be invited into her home with family present.
1- Its a sign of taking a friendship into the next level of a relationship.
2- A foreign guest is a sign of prestige. Its something her family will talk about for months to neighbors, at work, other relatives, friends, etc.
3- Guests in the home is a premier Russian/Ukrainian source of friendship and entertainment.
In summary, taking her out to nice restaurants might seem like fun, and you should do it, but not at the peril of missing the opportunity to participate in, and host in your temporary apartment, some home meals.
[attachimg=#] Lucky you, fish for dinner!
In any situation going out to eat is fun, but when in comes to courtship it doesn't have the same impact as you would expect back home.
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- Show your pleasure at getting to meet the family.
When you are invited to a Russian home the way apartments are often situated on side streets off main streets/avenues, it's likely you'll be met outside at the street level or at the closest bus stop. Someone from the home will greet you and bring you into the metal doors at the main entrance.
[attachimg=#] Double doors outside
Don't be too shocked at the entry condition. One thing you'll learn while in Russia and Ukraine is that the outside of the building and the main interior often have nothing to say about the condition of an apartment once inside.
[attachimg=#] Elegant old hall entry ceiling
You'll likely go thru at least two sets of steel doors, using either a pin keypad or buzzer intercom to pass through. Most apartments are on upper floors and you can take the stairs or use the лифт (lift = elevator). Once at the front door of the apartment you'll buzz the doorbell.
Step inside immediately. No hugs or handshakes across a threshold. After a brief greeting remove your outdoor shoes. You will be given slippers to wear. It is impolite to walk in a Russian home only in socks or in bare feet. It's okay to take along your own slippers if that makes you comfortable. I generally do.
Once seated in the living area of the largest bedroom (all rooms are multi purpose), offer to help the hostess with the preparation or clearing up after a meal is served. With the first request you will be turned down out of politeness. Asking a second time allows the hostess to accept your offer...or she may not, especially if this is the first time to their home.
Do not cross your legs with the ankle on the knee and it's impolite to show people the soles of your feet. There will be a lot to learn about Russian apartments so try not to stare too much. Likely the things you see will be more older than what you experience at home.
If asked if you are thirsty, go for water before the meal. First it shows that you are not a heavy drinker, something in men most RW wish to avoid. Second, because there will be toasts later, and plenty of them, you'll need the water in your system plus some food before trying to manage alcohol.
- Regarding table manners...
There are some differences and you don't need to convert to new manners. But knowing the differences will help. You'll see that Europeans hold the fork in the left hand and the knife in the right while eating. This is European Continential style. Unless you are at a very formal function, you may hold utensils like you do back home.
The oldest or most honoured guest is served first and in Russian politeness its important that you do not rest your elbows on the table, and your hands should be visible at all times.
You will often be urged to take second helpings. Take them. It is okay to use bread to soak up gravy or sauce.
Men pour drinks for women seated next to them...you already know stuff like this.
Leaving a small amount of food on your plate indicates that your hosts have provided ample hospitality. It is improper to look into another's plate or saucer.
Remember to say "Thanks, everything was very tasty" to the one who made the dish upon leaving the table. If a translator is present the phrase "very tasty" is probably better to use than "delicious." Very tasty in Russian sounds something like "oh-chen koos-nah."
- Enjoy the time around the table.
Often a table is unfolded and positioned next to the sofa. That way the sofa becomes a "row" for 2-3 people to sit on one side. Then chairs are placed around the rest of the table.
Likely this meal will be called ужин (ooh-zhin = Dinner) and the first course of an evening meal are salads.
Russian салат (sah-lat = salad) probably bears little resemblence to a typical American salad, for example. It might contain lettuce, but more than likely would not. Russia is a cold northern climate and salads are usually made of things like beets and potatoes, hearty root crops.
[attachimg=#] Herring in beets/sourcream
Russians tend to love mayonnaise or sour cream in a salad, and what you may be accustomed to for salad dressings, while not unknown, aren’t used that often. At dinner, especially on special occasions or when guests are present, a Russian table will be loaded with a variety of tasty salads—usually none will contain lettuce.
[attachimg=#] Salad "Olivie"
Many Russian salads are topped with salted meats or poached fish or a combination of the two. If fresh vegetables are not available, as typically are not throughout the harsh Russian winter, pickled vegetables, such as cabbage, are used.
[attachimg=#] Mimosa (Layered Fish Salad)
Dressings are usually майонез (may-ah-neze = mayonnaise) or сметана (smee-tana = sour cream).
[attachimg=#]
In a Russian meal the bountiful salads are considered as appetizers and the next serving is the суп (sueph) soup. Generally soup is referred to in Russian as первое блюдо (pear-vah blu-dah) which means “the first dish.”
[attachimg=#] Fish soup
In the summertime cold soups are served and in the winter few things can compete with a bowl of piping hot Russian soup. The soup course is followed by meat, especially fish, and more vegetables. Soup is a very important component to Russian cuisine and sometimes doubles as the main entree in harder times.
You'll discover that the main dish, really isn't. Its sort of tacked on near the end because in a real celebration the salad will take front and center on the table and most of the time the fascinating taste experiences happen during the salad course.
[attachimg=#] Salmon and rice.
Russians love fish. In any form--from raw to smoked to marinated to pickled to baked to boiled to fried to steamed and any other way you could think to fix it. Fish is number one, followed closely by chicken. Beef finds it way on the table once in a while, but not very often.
[attachimg=#] Chicken cutlets & mushrooms
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- Regarding table manners...
You forgot to mention the rule about "fallen soldiers"
If you finish the last bit in a bottle of vodka, wine or cognac IT IS CONSIDERED RUDE to put the empty bottle back on the table. Place it on the floor next to you.
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~to that end I bought a nice KitchenAid geared can opener at WalMart before I left home. (prolly less than $10). One evening I was entertaining my lady, (now wife) and she saw me open a can of something with the Kitchen Aid.
~Between the can opener, and the large double pack of Skippy Extra Crunchy peanut butter
I have heard about the joy of gifting a can opener that cuts the side of the can , and keeps the lid from falling in.
I don't eat peanut butter, but is it not available in the FSU ?
BTW I'd like to nominate this topic for sticky status :THUB:
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You forgot to mention the rule about "fallen soldiers"
If you finish the last bit in a bottle of vodka, wine or cognac IT IS CONSIDERED RUDE to put the empty bottle back on the table. Place it on the floor next to you.
Thank you, Shakespear!
Yes, never place an empty drink container, especially if it's alcohol, back on the table. Just set it on the floor beside you.
A possible exception might be bottles which will be re-used. A milk bottle or water bottle for example. Sometimes these (ask the hostess) are handed back and taken to the kitchen. In some homes they might go on the floor too.
[attachimg=#]
Check out several things in this small kitchen (usually you'll be served in the largest bedroom which serves at living room/dining room by day). Do you see the lone bottle on the table. That looks like a KVAS bottle. Now, take you eyes to the floor near the lady. Do you see the empty bottles on the floor?
Of interest: Just in case you wondered, on the wall just to the right of the stove is a wire holder with dishes. See it? In this tiny apartment, that is this family's "dish cabinet." All her dishes, not many, will be put on that wire shelf after being washed. Her small sink is just to the right, only the corner is visible.
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Don, peanut butter is more widely available these days. We usually take some because the smooth/creamy kind is not always on shelves. But yes, peanut butter is available generally.
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- Don't leave the table:
Do not get up until you are invited to leave the table. Normally the guest of honour is the first to get up from the table. If you are the guest of honour the hostess will suggest when to leave the table--in most cases it will be a couple of hours, or more, from the moment you sat down. Tea and conversation is done at the table after the meal.
As mentioned before you'll be at the table in many cases, for several hours. As time progresses the age old honour of drinking tea will be observed. This is a must to most Russians!
[attachimg=#]
Think of tea in the same way Indians and settlers would sit after a meal and smoke peace pipes. In attitude, these are very similar.
While the media popularizes drinking of vodka in Russia, truth is, Russian tea is consumed in much greater quantities. Drinking coffee is not much of a Russian tradition and tea drinking is a very important part of Slavic hospitality.
чай is the word for tea and you're probably already familiar with this word: "Chai."
In tea making often the family uses a samovar. In Cyrillic it looks like this, самовар, and sounds like "sahm-ah-VAR."
[attachimg=#]
Very often you'll be served a dessert such as торт (cake) along with the tea. Russian cakes are going to be quite different from the soft American styles especially. Not always, but usually there is a decorative fruit or jelled topping or center.
[attachimg=#] Fruit jelled tort
The enjoyment of tea can go on for a long time. As long as someone can make hot water and put in tea leaves, it'll just keep on coming.
[attachimg=#] Ukrainian Grape pie
To understand more about Russian tea drinkiing follow this RUA link: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,7356.msg106868.html#msg106868
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- Regarding table manners...
You forgot to mention the rule about "fallen soldiers"
If you finish the last bit in a bottle of vodka, wine or cognac IT IS CONSIDERED RUDE to put the empty bottle back on the table. Place it on the floor next to you.
I have never got to the bottom of this one. I understood it to be a strongly held superstition but no one can explain what it is about. ??? Mendy?
The first summer Irina was here, we were invited to dinner at a neighbour's house. After pouring drinks, they left the empty bottle on the table; Irina immediately got up, grabbed the bottle and rushed into the kitchen with it and then returned to her seat. I assumed that if she hadn't done this, the house would have been in imminent danger of being struck by a thunderbolt from some vengeful god/spirit. :evilgrin0002:
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Trevor, there seems to be two (maybe even more?) opinions on how this came into being. I have gotten two different versions and since there is a superstition against asking about Russian superstitions, apparently my very life was at stake when inquiring about it! :chuckle:
Version 1 came from my Mother-in-Law:
Empty bottles are a sign of poverty as when you display a lack of something, poverty and need will come true in your life. Therefore bottles go on the floor, out of sight where they are not seen publically on the table.
Version 2 came from Sasha, a friend:
Empty bottles invite death into the home and are a sign of a pending funeral in your house.
Okay....why?
He wasn't sure. As he is almost 60 years old I didn't want to press the issue--after all why cause him stress and then he might have a heart attack and since he has no children, I'd probably be responsible for planning his funeral. Come to think of it, I'd also be responsible for all those empty bottles in his home left by his friends drinking away their sorrows because of his demise.
Gosh, just the thought makes me depressed.
So, where did the nickname "fallen soldiers" for empty bottles come from?
I've heard it but am not able to pin it down. Could it be an honorary descripton given as appreciation for the good effort this bottle has made to our life's pleasure? That is a good question.
Perhaps one of our very astute members has the info on it which would be nice to hear!
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So, where did the nickname "fallen soldiers" for empty bottles come from?
I've heard it but am not able to pin it down. Could it be an honorary descripton given as appreciation for the good effort this bottle has made to our life's pleasure? That is a good question.
Perhaps one of our very astute members has the info on it which would be nice to hear!
That may not be Russian, per se....it is common in the Americas, as well as some European countries (though it usually applies to bottles of beer). I think your definition is as good as any I have heard.
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So, where did the nickname "fallen soldiers" for empty bottles come from?
I've heard it but am not able to pin it down. Could it be an honorary description given as appreciation for the good effort this bottle has made to our life's pleasure? That is a good question.
Perhaps one of our very astute members has the info on it which would be nice to hear!
As a former US Marine I'm happy to share the origin of this slang with pride. It's something all Marines are taught in their history, customs and traditions class at Boot Camp or at Quantico -
"Why is an empty bottle of wine called a dead soldier? This is one of the few Sailor Talk that we can actually trace to a specific person on a specific date.
William IV was known as the 'Sailor King'. As the third son of George III, he was born Prince William Henry. In 1789 he became Duke of Clarence. As a youth he joined the navy as a midshipman and rose through the ranks. Someone in his social position might expect to become rear admiral through patronage. The Duke of Clarence made rear admiral through true merit.
Shortly after receiving his promotion to rear admiral in 1790, His Highness was at dinner on board one of his fleet's ships. He ordered the steward to remove the 'dead marines' to make room for new bottles. A marine officer at the table complained. His Highness responded that no offense was intended. The expression was used in the sense "...that, like marines, the bottle had given its life nobly and, given the chance, would do it again."
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I have never got to the bottom of this one. I understood it to be a strongly held superstition but no one can explain what it is about. ??? Mendy?
Here in Georgia we also always put empty bottles on the floor. But I always thought that this is done because of lack of space on the table (and it is always lack of space when it is table for guest dinner) to keep there something none needs anymore.
On normal tables without guests (that is, normal amount of food) it is ok to keep for example empty bottle of champagne for a while.
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Here in Georgia we also always put empty bottles on the floor. But I always thought that this is done because of lack of space on the table (and it is always lack of space when it is table for guest dinner) to keep there something none needs anymore.
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one...many customs are based on the practical, rather then the superstitious... :)
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Trevor, there seems to be two (maybe even more?) opinions on how this came into being. I have gotten two different versions and since there is a superstition against asking about Russian superstitions, apparently my very life was at stake when inquiring about it! :chuckle:
Version 1 came from my Mother-in-Law:
Empty bottles are a sign of poverty as when you display a lack of something, poverty and need will come true in your life. Therefore bottles go on the floor, out of sight where they are not seen publically on the table.
Version 2 came from Sasha, a friend:
Empty bottles invite death into the home and are a sign of a pending funeral in your house.
Okay....why?
He wasn't sure. As he is almost 60 years old I didn't want to press the issue--after all why cause him stress and then he might have a heart attack and since he has no children, I'd probably be responsible for planning his funeral. Come to think of it, I'd also be responsible for all those empty bottles in his home left by his friends drinking away their sorrows because of his demise.
Gosh, just the thought makes me depressed.
So, where did the nickname "fallen soldiers" for empty bottles come from?
I've heard it but am not able to pin it down. Could it be an honorary descripton given as appreciation for the good effort this bottle has made to our life's pleasure? That is a good question.
Perhaps one of our very astute members has the info on it which would be nice to hear!
He!!He!! My wife says the same there is a superstition against asking about Russian superstitions
Her take on the bottle thing is this
Never place an empty bottle back on the table, it is unlucky. The table should be plentiful, to encourage plenty of everything.
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hey Mend has she hit you with this one yet when shopping
Money should be placed on the counter and then picked up by the recipient. Not everybody minds of course, but it is a general rule.
He!!He!! How did i ever survive before without knowing all these superstitions
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Schastlivyj, yes, the giving and receiving of money was a habit I had to break at first. It didn't take long.
In Russia and Ukraine you are expected to pay the cashier for your purchases by placing your money on the counter. Usually there is a little pad (about the size of a mouse pad) there for that purpose.
The cashier then makes your change and places it on the pad for you to pick up. Money should never be handed directly to someone.
My mother in law even practices this tradition in our home. If she asks me to stop by a market to pick up something for herself, I've learned that she will place the money on a table or counter and I will pick it up. I've also learned to return change to her the same way. She does that with everyone.
Mrs Mendeleyeva however, has become fully Westernized in this area. She and I pass money back and forth by hand with no problem. :laugh:
Not long ago the very lovely Mrs Mendeleyeva came up at my side, blew in my ear while placing some money in my shirt pocket, being way too friendly around my pocket I might add, while saying "hurry home with those tomatoes because I have plans for you after dinner."
I probably set a new record time in getting to the market and back! ;D
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- How to make toasts.
Here are some general guidelines when as a guest you are expected to take part in toasts:
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If you accept alcohol, the liquid in your glass must be completely emptied.
One should not put a glass with alcohol back on the table.
Traditionally alcohol is poured out to all the people present, though they are not required to drink (women and children).
There should not be a long waiting period between first and second wine glasses.
A latecomer must drink a full glass (so-called "penal" shot) in addition to the regular shots.
A departing guest must drink last glass, so-called "na pososhok" (На посошок). Loosely translated as "for good luck."
As a rule, every portion of spirit is accompanied by a touch of glasses and a toast. (Funeral and memorial commemorations are exceptions; there the touch of glasses is forbidden.)
You should never pour a drink while holding a bottle at the bottom.
It is not allowed to fill a glass being held in the air. Your host/hostess will insist that you sit the glass on the table before wine, etc is poured. This however is not the rule for vodka toasts.
Your hosts will make toasts to honour your presence. Make certain to make one or two (generally 3 max) to wish the host and hostess these things: happiness-health-wealth-good luck.
Soon after you propose a toast to the host/hostess, make one regarding your special lady friend. Be careful here and do it as I outline because there are some missteps you don't wish to make: BE CERTAIN to make this toast "on behalf of your relatives and friends back home who send their greetings and wishes of happiness-health-wealth-good luck to (her name) and this family." Don't stray on this one--keep it to what I've outlined.
Toasts should always compliment, but never use a toast to say "thank you" directly. If you wish to make a toast to show appreciation it's okay to mention gratefulness but that should not be the object of the toast.
Here is an example of saying thank you in a toast without saying it directly: "I propose a toast to Sasha, who has been a good tour guide this week, and has shown me the greatness of Russia and opened my eyes to to the beauty of (name of this city). I wish Sasha much happiness-health-wealth-good luck in the future. (You said thank you but couched it so it wasn't a direct toast as the thank you.)
Likely a translator will be present. Sometimes the translator is your lady. Keep in mind that they've not lived in the West and have not encountered the full force of the English language. Nobody can be truly "fluent" in a language without being a part of the culture of a language--a University degree notwithstanding. So, avoid excess words (even if it sounds stilted to you), speak slowly and directly. This gives the translator the best chance at hearing and saying what you wish to convey.
Example of doing it badly: "I, ah, well, in thinking of all the fun we've had this evening, I'd like to make a toast as a goodwill expression of all that has, ahem, transpired here tonight and this past week. Svetlana and I have grown to be really attached and I, well, hope to come back soon and, ah, perhaps this relationship can go to the next level...at least I'd like for it to go to the next level and I think that she feels the same. Ah, well what I'm trying to say it that I thank you for a great time and hope that you experience many happy things in the future. I'm not good at making these toasts so I hope that Igor the translator can make sense of what I'm saying and here is a toast to everyone in the room and to friends and loved ones not present, and also to everyone we will meet in the future. Yes, it's been a good week and I hope to come back soon and enjoy this wonderful experience again. Ah, okay, that is my toast I guess."
Holy crap, what is Igor the translator supposed to do with that rambling? If you need to write it before hand, there is no law or tradition against doing so. Write it down, use easy and direct words and keep it short.
Lets recraft that toast: "Tonight has been a wonderful evening. Meeting Svetlana's family has been very special for me. I will cherish this dinner in my heart because of this family. I hope you understand that Svetlana and I are happy to have found each other. It is my plan to return soon to visit your wonderful daughter. I bring warm greetings to you from my family and friends in Canada and they with me propose this toast to wish this family and this home. We wish you much happiness, good health and good luck."
Igor the translator can handle that much better.
It is also in "good form" to toast any of her close friends who have come to this dinner. In fact, don't forget to do it. Simply propose a toast which compliments her choice of friends and your pleasure at meeting them. (Remember they are there because she values their opinions about her choice of a mate--they would not be present if she didn't plan on giving them a "vote" in the matter. So butter up the jury if you catch my drift.)
Any outside relative or family friend who has been invited, whether you realized it or not, has been invited as a member of the "jury." They will, after you have returned home, be allowed to voice their opinion and give counsel on whether or not this lady and you should "move to the next level." Their presence wasn't accidential--they were included for a reason.
Be a good diplomat on your own behalf.
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Here is something copied and from a blogger named Konstantin:
(Mendeleyev disclaimer: Read and try at your own risk. Neither RUA nor myself can guarantee any results from reading this article.)
Russians are renowned for drinking a lot of vodka staying sober. That’s not something to do with biological inheritance but with the way we drink.
Russians believe that foreigners don’t know how to drink. They don’t eat while drinking. They mix cocktails. They sip vodka instead of taking shots. They drink vodka with highly carbonated sodas. In short, they do everything to get drunk from the minimum amount of alcohol. May be it has something to do with innate Western avidity or expensiveness of alcohol.
Russians, on the other hand, do everything to stay sober while drinking as much alcohol as possible. How do we do it? We try to neutralize alcohol as long as possible. I try to outline the basic principles of vodka drinking for uninitiated.
One hour before the party.
1. Eat a couple of boiled potatoes.
2. Drink one or two raw eggs.
3. Drink one or two table-spoons of olive oil. Sunflower oil will also do.
Thus it’s guaranteed that you will stay sober for at least one bottle of vodka. I’m not kidding. Raw eggs are the most important part of Russian pre-party preparations.
At the party:
1. If you start drinking vodka – drink only vodka. No beer or wine. No water or juice. Carbonated drinks are taboo.
2. Drink vodka only in shots. Never sip.
3. Eat immediately after taking a shot. Russian zakuskis are often translated as appetizers. That’s not quite correct. Zakuskis are something you ‘zakusyvayesh’ with after taking a shot of vodka. They are very important to neutralize alcohol. That’s why they all contain two most important alcohol neutralizers – acid and salt. I recommend taking the following sequence:
- immediately after taking a shot – two slices of lemon;
- then some salted cucumbers, pickles, marinated tomatoes or caviar.
- then something with a lot of oil: herring (traditionally with cold boiled potatoes and onion), sardines, or shproty (small smoked sprats in olive oil);
- then traditional Russian salads, like Oliviye or Herring with boiled beet and mayonnaise. Almost all Russian salads come under heavy mayonnaise dressing. Remember – acid, salt, eggs and oil. Ukrainians and Southern Russians prefer smoked lard with garlic but it’s a zakuska for professionals.
4. Only three first vodka shots at a Russian party are ‘obligatory’ so to say. That means you have to take them if you want to show you’re a friendly person but not an unsociable person. After that you can ‘miss’ one or two shots. Just say, “Ya propuskayu” (Literally, I make it slip) and cover your glass with your palm. That doesn’t mean you can abstain from drinking till the end of the party. It means (excusing yourself that you’re a foreigner) can take one shot out of two your Russian guests take.
I think, some Russian party traditions need to be explained here. In Russia we party around a big table with bottles and zakuskis. We drink only when someone makes a toast and we drink all together. The person who makes a toast usually pours vodka to all glasses. Taking a bottle yourself and drinking vodka without others is a faux pas. Actually you (and all others) are ordered to drink after a toast. Everyone at the party is supposed to make a toast – being a foreigner is not an excuse. So be prepared – buy yourself a book on party toasts (there are a lot of them on sale in Russia) and learn some by heart.
5. Zakuskis part of the party take about an hour – or something like 200 grams (4 shots) of vodka. Then comes “goryacheye” (hot dishes). Even though zakuskis could be very filling – you should eat goryacheye if you want not be become drunk.
6. Actively participate in intellectual talks around the table. Mental activity is probably the best method to keep you excited but sober. Try, for example, to drink two pints of beer while reading a philosophical book and see the result.
7. At the end of the party come tea and cakes. Don’t miss it too. This way you show your hosts that you’re survived the party without dire consequences.
Now in the course of 4 or 5 hours you drunk a bottle of vodka (500 grams) and you’re only slightly tight.
After the party.
1. Keep a small bottle of beer in refrigerator. Wake up at about 5 in the morning, drink your beer and go back to bed. It prevents hang-over in the morning.
2. If the early morning beer didn’t help (it usually does), drink a glass of brine from the jar you kept you pickles in.
Many Russians recommend taking a shot of vodka in the morning to fight hang-over. Don’t do it. It helps only alcoholics. If you’re not, it will make things worse.
Link: http://konstantin2005.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-to-drink-vodka-and-stay-sober.html
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These are good pointers on Russian parties, been there, done that.
Regards Konstantin's rules to staying sober; that's simply hogwash.
A state of inebriation is achieved when one's body reaches a certain blood alcohol concentration level, usually at about .06 - .08% for the average adult. This will occur for a 180 lb man after 4-5 shots of vodka if consumed in less than a 2 hour period. The same amount of booze in a 120 lb woman will result in a BAC level of .12% and she'll be snockered. Less body weight = less blood volume = greater blood alcohol concentration for the same amount of booze consumed.
If your BAC gets up in the range of .12 - .17% you are at the staggering, falling down drunk stage. (not recomemded)
Death is possible when BAC reaches above .30%
Source: http://bloodalcoholcalculator.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=5
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True jb...having worked in the bar business for years when I was younger, I think I've heard just about every "trick"...none of them actually keep you sober, they merely slow down the rate of alcohol being absorbed...but only by a short time. It WILL catch up!
Smokers can hold out slightly longer, due to the nicotine, but suffer more later...the increased heart rate actually pushes the alcohol into the bloodstream faster...eventually, the depressant (alcohol) overwhelms the stimulant (nicotine) and one "crashes"...hard.
One trick once popular with American businessmen was to eat cubes of butter or margarine shortly before a business lunch...the oil coats the stomach, and slows down the absorbtion of alcohol. Again, the key word is "slow down"...you're merely buying time, and not much....
The only things that can truly help one maintain are 1. Genetics (including build and constitution) 2. Acquired tolerance 3. A full stomach
Most "tricks" are bollocks...YOU may think you're doing ok, but no one else in the immediate vicinity will think so... ;D
I personally am not a fan of "hair of the dog"...the real key, at least for me, is plenty of water, during and after...the headache part of the hangover is simple dehydration, and good ol' H2O is the only "real" cure....
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I personally am not a fan of "hair of the dog"...the real key, at least for me, is plenty of water, during and after...the headache part of the hangover is simple dehydration, and good ol' H2O is the only "real" cure....
The "hair of the dog" is effective but leads towards alcoholism. A hangover is your body's response to withdrawling from the effects of alcohol. Replacing the alcohol depletion in your body will certainly stop the effects of the hangover but it's pretty risky as a regular cure for alcohol abuse.
I've always found that taking a mega (500-800mg) dose of aspirin with a glass of water before going to bed tends to minimize many of the negative effects of a hangover that next morning. Problem is I'm not always in a condition to remember to do it. :chuckle:
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Here in Georgia this is a lot easier. Even though Georgians have own culture to drink wine - and that's a lot of it - but nobody is pushed to drink anymore. At least in Tbilisi, maybe in villages they still keep the custom. It's possible not to drink at all and still be considered friendly, or have 1 glass of wine whole evening and drink by little every toast. Foreign guests can be pushed to drink - just to show hospitality, but actually if they knew this, they don't have to. If they refuse this wouldn't be a problem.
I'd generally advise people not to change drinking habits in foreign counties.
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I personally am not a fan of "hair of the dog"...the real key, at least for me, is plenty of water, during and after...the headache part of the hangover is simple dehydration, and good ol' H2O is the only "real" cure....
The "hair of the dog" is effective but leads towards alcoholism. A hangover is your body's response to withdrawling from the effects of alcohol. Replacing the alcohol depletion in your body will certainly stop the effects of the hangover but it's pretty risky as a regular cure for alcohol abuse.
I've always found that taking a mega (500-800mg) dose of aspirin with a glass of water before going to bed tends to minimize many of the negative effects of a hangover that next morning. Problem is I'm not always in a condition to remember to do it. :chuckle:
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=5893.msg81248#msg81248
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We have some very interesting thoughts here!
Years ago after sadly watching a close family member sink into the depths of alcoholism, I made a person decision of never consuming more than the equivalent of 2 drinks (wine/beer/mixed drinks) at any one time. If I know we'll be doing vodka shots then I'll accept three small shots but refuse wine during dinner prior to the shots.
That 2 drink rule may have saved me from many an embarrassing or even dangerous moment. Mrs Mendeleyeva does a great job of shielding me when we're at parties, official functions, etc. After a couple of toasts she begins to pour 7-up or sometimes even water in my shot glass as toasts are being prepared, or will calmly announce that I have a limit for personal reasons. Since no one argues with a RW it goes unchallenged.
I agree with Alenika as some men may not wish to drink at all. Simply explain that you're enjoying the party and cheerfully agree with the spirit of the toasts but will have to pass on the vodka.
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Here in Georgia this is a lot easier. Even though Georgians have own culture to drink wine - and that's a lot of it - but nobody is pushed to drink anymore. At least in Tbilisi, maybe in villages they still keep the custom.
Hi Alenika
Quite a few Georgians in Cyprus - that's where I first came across "Chacha" ... I wish I'd stuck to Kindzmarauli ( red wine !)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chacha_(liquor)
To be honest no-one "pushed" me to drink it - but drinking Chatcha from a bladder sac means your aim has to be good, or you have to have a BIG mouth !!
I'd generally advise people not to change drinking habits in foreign counties.[/color]
Why does that advice sound so appropriate when it's too late ? ;)
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Thanks to all for the empty-bottle explanation. tiphat
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- What happens in the host's home -- stays in the host's home:
Ah, yes, going to the bathroom. At home in the west you'd never be reading a tutorial on how to do this. :chuckle: So let's quickly flush out this topic briefly without allowing it to drag us into the sewer.
First off: vocabulary. If you call that porcelian appliance the "commode" she'll wonder why on earth you would ever want to perform such bodily functions in her bedroom dresser (chest of drawers) cause that is what a "commode" is in Russian.
What you want is the туалет. That means "toilet" and it's how you call that part of the bathroom.
What do you mean "that part" of the bathroom? Most Russian homes have a split bath and toilet. It allows multiple functions without tying up one room with just one occupant. This allows one person to be in the "toilet" doing those kinds of things while another person could be in the bath area doing bath related things. In one room is the toilet, and in the other is the sink and tub/shower.
Unlike Western home building safety codes, Russian bath and toilet facilities are usually right next to the kitchen. That allows short plumbing runs and makes construction quicker and more simple. But its not as pleasant for obvious sanitary reasons around food.
When babushka is not around to scold them for bad manners our kids have been known to nickname our toilet as "the Gas Chamber." :ROFL:
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This means that you will do your business in one tiny little room and then wash your hands afterward using the sink in the small bathroom next door, well, that is if it's not occupied.
Did we mention tiny? The square footage of a typical ''toilet" is approximately 3 feet wide by 5 feet long. The toilet and plumbing take up at least 4 feet of that five foot length, leaving a few inches for you to fit your knees when you sit down.
You probably see that light switch on the wall next to the toilet door. That is common 3 switch configurtion. Likely it controls the bath, the toilet and the kitchen which is just a step away. The light switch for the hallway and rest of the rooms is likely near the front door.
In my very first Moscow apartment there were only two switches in the apartment: The one at the front door controlled the hallway, the bedroom midway down the hall, and the living room/bedroom at the end of the hall. The switch between the bath and toilet doors controlled those rooms and the kitchen. At night when turning out the lights to sleep, one either walked down the hall to turn off the bedroom light...or installed a light bulb receptacle with a pull string on it. That was a bit easier.
Back to vocabulary for a moment. I don't advise using "bathroom" as a polite substitute for "toilet" for this reason: Ванная = Bathroom (Vahn-na-yah) seems harmless, right? Well, not quite. Most beginning Russian speakers confuse it with Ваня (Vahn-yah) which happens to be a Russian man's name. The two words are VERY SIMILAR when spoken and it takes some practice to correctly make the difference.
In the confusion of speaking your hosts may think you want to meet with Ваня when what you are trying to do is frantically ask for directions to the bathroom after a full evening of eating and drinking. Or worse yet, they could think that you are insulting their friend Ваня by equating him with what goes on in the "bathroom."
Stick with туалет. :nod:
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Don't be shy and think that you can hold it until you leave their home to return to your place. Russia isn't big on public toilet facilities and the trip back to your place might be longer and more pressing that you'd at first imagined.
Follow this link (http://www.languageguide.org/im/bathroom/ru/) and scroll over each item found in a bathroom/toilet to hear the name of the item spoken in Russian.
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Great TR Mendy, really enjoying it :)
The Toilet!!! It has been told to me this is the room of many thoughts :-X but then I think we all know this anyway.
Back to the toilet, now I do not know what other people have found so I will relate a little about my experiences with this tricky subject :innocent:
1. Do not always assume that there is a toilet within the house / apartment area as sometimes these are shared facilities, and also in villages they maybe still outside in a little shed
On one of my early visits to my then girlfriends grandmother I asked where the toilet was she told me to come with her, I was led down to the back of the house past all the animals and garden to a tiny little shed where I was told this is it!! well I had heard of "Earth toilets" before, but this is the first time I had used one, you carry out the necessary and then with a little shovel cover with some soil! and later on in time the toilet gets moved to a new area :scared0005:
This is their way of life and as Mendy says just be prepared for the unexpected :popcorn:
2. Do not always think that while you are in a modern apartment that you can flush what you like down the pan!!!!
Yes even in the most modern of apartments you are asked kindly not to put paper down the pan as although the surroundings you are in are very modern the connecting pipework might be very old and even just the paper will block the system, there is a small bin provided for this.
Great TR Mendy can not wait for the going to banya section :-X
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Wait just a minute !!!! :whistle:
Back up the train Richard ....lol
Are you implying that one is not supposed to put their used toilet paper in the 'taulet', but instead, put it in a receptacle ?
:hidechair:
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In most buildings its safe to flush, but in some some with very old plumbing you will see a little trash can in the corner for which to place paper after it's use. I have seen more of that in Mexico for example, but in Russia it will depend on age and condition of the plumbing system.
Sparky also brings out a good point regarding communal apartments, of which there are two types. One type of communal apartment is a normal apartment that is shared by more than one family.
The other type of communal apartment, usually in very old buildings, are a large group of rooms where a family lives in that room. Down at the end of the hall there is a large shared kitchen, usually with a couple of stoves, two sinks, etc. This is a true communal kitchen where familes get a block of time in which to use the kitchen along with a couple of other residents.
In these larger communal arrangements there is also a common toilet and bathroom arrangement. Some of these buildings are so old that the indoor plumbing no longer works properly and toilet functions are done in an outhouse just outside the building.
These days in those very old buildings most of the residents are very old pensioners who cannot afford to move to better housing. They just hope to make it with a roof over their heads long enough to meet their maker. It is more likely to meet a lady's elderly babushka in such an arrangement than to court a lady who lives like that anymore.
RUA member Belle sometime ago shared a link sometime ago about communal living which is very cool: http://kommunalka.colgate.edu/
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Are you implying that one is not supposed to put their used toilet paper in the 'taulet', but instead, put it in a receptacle ?
:hidechair:
You have obviously never been to Turkey or Greece!
Reliable plumbing, fit-for-purpose, is one of the benefits of having been colonised by the British! :GOUK:
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LOL .... obviously
I'm more like Archie Bunker or Al Bundy, I enjoy a good session with the porcelain gods.
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In most buildings its safe to flush, but in some some with very old plumbing you will see a little trash can in the corner for which to place paper after it's use. I have seen more of that in Mexico for example, but in Russia it will depend on age and condition of the plumbing system.
Sparky also brings out a good point regarding communal apartments, of which there are two types. One type of communal apartment is a normal apartment that is shared by more than one family.
The other type of communal apartment, usually in very old buildings, are a large group of rooms where a family lives in that room. Down at the end of the hall there is a large shared kitchen, usually with a couple of stoves, two sinks, etc. This is a true communal kitchen where family's get a block of time in which to use the kitchen along with a couple of other residents.
In these larger communal arrangements there is also a common toilet and bathroom arrangement. Some of these buildings are so old that the indoor plumbing no longer works properly and toilet functions are done in an outhouse just outside the building.
These days in those very old buildings most of the residents are very old pensioners who cannot afford to move to better housing. They just hope to make it with a roof over their heads long enough to meet their maker. It is more likely to meet a lady's elderly babushka in such an arrangement than to court a lady who lives like that anymore.
RUA member Belle sometime ago shared a link sometime ago about communal living which is very cool: http://kommunalka.colgate.edu/
Thanks Mendy,
This is something to be taken into account, the futher you get off the normally trodden path, the more likely you will find things are not quite as modern as one is used too!!!!
All my Experiences of life like this were in the northan Ural mountains region above and beyond Yekaterinburg I stayed in my then Girlfriends house where she lived with her son, sister,brother in law, their son and babushka + partner
In this major size house all had a bedroom and a sitting room of their own and then there was the kitchen and main living room where they all gathered to eat but inside the house there was no bathroom only 2 toilets. All bathing and washing took place in a large Banya in the back garden. there was no bath and no shower to be seen in banya just the steam room and the dressing room but good times were had in there with many beers consumed. ;D
Yes Jared you just have to put the paper in the bin!!!!! 8)
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:drunk: Oh Lord, who gets the enviable task of taking that out with the garbage ?
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Parks and Plumbing, etc.
Gorky Park in Moscow has a set of trenches into which one may squat over to use and of course the paper is deposited in the can not the trickle of water flowing past.
In Yalta some of the public toilets are so dark you need a flashlight to know where you are walking, or into what you could be stepping. Again beware the slowly flowing water!
Even in major cities the outdoor toilet can be common. Even outdoor showers enclosures with separate heating for the water tank can be found. Used many times. Bathing in winter, changing and running for the main house is something to be taken quickly. At least the water is hot once it starts. There is of course no adjustment of the temperature of the water.
While sightseeing in historic churches or monastaries you will commonly find the standard floor holes so no need to wory about where the paper goes. Just make sure you brought some with you or else you will not be very clean on leaving! Small pocket sized packs of kleenex can be great travelling companions in the FSU. Never know when you will need them and not just for blowing your nose!
Another country with similar plumbing is of course Cuba. Even the best hotels have this system of slowly flowing water, so paper waste needs to be deposited in the trash can provided.
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Parks and Plumbing, etc.
Gorky Park in Moscow has a set of trenches into which one may squat over to use and of course the paper is deposited in the can not the trickle of water flowing past.
In Yalta some of the public toilets are so dark you need a flashlight to know where you are walking, or into what you could be stepping. Again beware the slowly flowing water!
Even in major cities the outdoor toilet can be common. Even outdoor showers enclosures with separate heating for the water tank can be found. Used many times. Bathing in winter, changing and running for the main house is something to be taken quickly. At least the water is hot once it starts. There is of course no adjustment of the temperature of the water.
While sightseeing in historic churches or monastaries you will commonly find the standard floor holes so no need to wory about where the paper goes. Just make sure you brought some with you or else you will not be very clean on leaving! Small pocket sized packs of kleenex can be great travelling companions in the FSU. Never know when you will need them and not just for blowing your nose!
Another country with similar plumbing is of course Cuba. Even the best hotels have this system of slowly flowing water, so paper waste needs to be deposited in the trash can provided.
Great post MBS01, just goes to prove that all can not be taken as read, just for the new guys be aware and do not be afraid :)
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Sorry Mendy where were we before we got all flushed with excitement :chuckle:
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Man, I'm gonna eat nothing but cheese for a month before I visit.....lol
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Sorry that it has been several days since wrapping up this subject. I'm very happy to be working for a different company (still in broadcast journalism) and getting used to a new office routine and new associates takes a lot of time. Soon things will settle down but for now I've been very busy.
As we leave the topic of how to be a guest in Ukraine and Russia there are some reminders to cover:
- Regarding gifts which are sharp: Things like knives and sissors are risky. They can be viewed as bad as breaking a mirror. Should you take something sharp as a gift be certain to allow your recipient to "purchase" it from you. Failure to do so is in very bad form.
Example: Lets say that you take your future mother in law a very nice and expensive set of kitchen knives. Only do so if your girlfriend gives the okay. It's a risky gift. Upon presentation you will "sell" it to your future mother for a ridiculously cheap price...such as $2, etc. This allows her to accept the knives without bringing very bad luck down upon the household.
Don't laugh, your ladies will be serious about it.
- Speaking of breaking a mirror. Oh goodness, whatever you do, don't cause the girl of your dreams to call off your pending marriage because you were careless and broke a mirror in the bathroom.
We guys don't let such things bother us, but you should know that if you break a mirror and continue to use it, that brings on at least 7 more years of poverty, bad health and misfortune with each look. :-X
- When telling stories about your life in her home, never ever use physical hand gestures to demonstrate something negative using oneself or someone else as the object. As an example, when describing a scar on your father's stomach to explain his gall bladder operation, NEVER guesture and demonstrate the location of that scar or the incision. If you must, you can demonstrate in mid-air.
- If one person accidentally steps on another person's foot, it is common for the person who was stepped on to lightly step on the foot of the person who stepped first. It is said that they thus avoid a future conflict.
- Special occasions such as birthdays, etc, MUST only be celebrated on or after one's birthday, never before. Wishing someone a birthday or anniversary a few days early is bad luck. In fact, there mere mention of the special day prior to the date could be problematic.
- Talking about future success, especially boasting about it, is considered bad luck. It is better to be silent until the success has been achieved or to even sound pessimistic.
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When telling stories about your life in her home, never ever use physical hand gestures to demonstrate something negative using oneself or someone else as the object. As an example, when describing a scar on your father's stomach to explain his gall bladder operation, NEVER guesture and demonstrate the location of that scar or the incision. If you must, you can demonstrate in mid-air.
This one has gotten me in the doghouse a couple of times before
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Shas, I forgot one. In a group setting, as when extended family members have come to meet you, it is considered impolite to the host for you and your lady (or any other person) to share food from a common plate.
Even if the table is crowded with a billion friends and relatives packed in like sardines, you must have a separate plate as does your lady. The reasoning goes like this: Supposedly other guests will think that your host/hostess has not provided a plate specifically for you (you're the honoured foreign guest) and has slighted and ignored you.
This rule is also true of formal functions. If you and a lady, or a close friend, are at a business or government reception with "finger foods" set out for guests, it is very important that you do not share a plate, no matter how convenient, for the same reason.
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Nat goes out of her way to make sure of this no matter where we are i cant even pick my own food otherwise i get slapped cant even pinch anything off her plate as well.
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Concerning the last custom - yes, there has to be plate for everyone sitting at the table. But it is allowed to pick food up from close person's plate. Some don't like this, but it is not against any custom. The custom is that everyone has to have plate - besides kids until 3 y.o. I also consider this important and other way - I think it shows lack of respect. Everyone should have a choice if to eat from separate plate or no. Lack of own plate doesn't leave this choice.
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Shas, I forgot one. In a group setting, as when extended family members have come to meet you, it is considered impolite to the host for you and your lady (or any other person) to share food from a common plate.
Even if the table is crowded with a billion friends and relatives packed in like sardines, you must have a separate plate as does your lady. The reasoning goes like this: Supposedly other guests will think that your host/hostess has not provided a plate specifically for you (you're the honoured foreign guest) and has slighted and ignored you.
This rule is also true of formal functions. If you and a lady, or a close friend, are at a business or government reception with "finger foods" set out for guests, it is very important that you do not share a plate, no matter how convenient, for the same reason.
Isn't it like that everywhere else? I've never seen people share plates..
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Isn't it like that everywhere else? I've never seen people share plates..
Yes I was surprised to this as well. Are there places where they put one plate for two or more people??
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Isn't it like that everywhere else? I've never seen people share plates..
Yes I was surprised to this as well. Are there places where they put one plate for two or more people??
Yes it is called a platter or finger food where everything is on the one platter and everyone shares the same platter very common at Aussie BBQ's
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Not normally, but let me give you an example. We attend some functions at night because of my kind of work. Often it is a group of people (who think they are important) in a very nice private house.
There are waiters who carry food and they will offer you something to eat and some wine. At such a function this kind of food is served for several hours and you may walk around and speak with people as you eat. It is not a real sit-down meal.
Often I have not had any supper and have come to this event from my office. Mrs Mendeleyeva on the other hand has enjoyed supper at home. She is not very hungry and sometimes I will take a plate and put on some chicken or ham and fruit on this plate.
She likes to "nibble" from my plate...maybe a strawberry or some grapes or cheese. But it is my plate. I put on it whatever she tells me. :chuckle:
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Mendy and Schastlivyi, this is called Swedish table here and how everyone shares the plate it's their own business :-) the rule about plate for one guest is for normal table, when all are sitting at the same table, then everyone has be given separate plate. But if this is Swedish table (which is not common here) then rules for swedish table apply.
What about barbeque - there are no rules for plates there too :-) Usually people are using "одноразовые" тарелки for barbeque (especially when it is not near someone's house, but somewhere in forest) and they also decide themselves what to do with them and how :-)
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Mendy and Schastlivyi, this is called Swedish table here and how everyone shares the plate it's their own business :-) the rule about plate for one guest is for normal table, when all are sitting at the same table, then everyone has be given separate plate. But if this is Swedish table (which is not common here) then rules for swedish table apply.
What about barbeque - there are no rules for plates there too :-) Usually people are using "одноразовые" тарелки for barbeque (especially when it is not near someone's house, but somewhere in forest) and they also decide themselves what to do with them and how :-)
Most Aussie BBQ's have paper plates if you want them but there are no rules, with Aussie get togethers whether its a BBQ or entertaining at home you will always find before the main meal platters of food usually with a dip in the middle and lots of small things to nibble on no plates only fingers required here. The only rule is no double dipping in the dip (do not dip something into the dip then put that in your mouth and return to dip the same food that has been in your mouth) After main meals including BBQ's you will find fruit patters brought out it is the same here fingers only. Also alot of Aussie BBQ's your peice of bread is your plate.
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Isn't it like that everywhere else? I've never seen people share plates..
Yes I was surprised to this as well. Are there places where they put one plate for two or more people??
Yes it is called a platter or finger food where everything is on the one platter and everyone shares the same platter very common at Aussie BBQ's
No, platter is a platter, finger food is finger food and has nothing to do with individual plates. Have you ever been to BBQ where you were not given your own plate? I most definitely wasn't. How would you eat salad for example without a plate?
There would be platters on the table and a stack of plates as well, everyone gets a plate and puts on it what ever they want, nobody eats from somebody else's plate not even couples. People stand or sit around with their own plates.
it all started from this perl
Shas, I forgot one. In a group setting, as when extended family members have come to meet you, it is considered impolite to the host for you and your lady (or any other person) to share food from a common plate.
what exactly does that mean? During my family dinners, we always have plates in the middle and every one gets from them what ever they want - SHARE. Why all of sudden it is impolite?
You won't see 2 people eating form one plate, but I'd think you won't see it anywhere..
(http://www.guide-guru.com/images/Russian_dinner.jpg)
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Isn't it like that everywhere else? I've never seen people share plates..
Yes I was surprised to this as well. Are there places where they put one plate for two or more people??
Yes it is called a platter or finger food where everything is on the one platter and everyone shares the same platter very common at Aussie BBQ's
No, platter is a platter, finger food is finger food and has nothing to do with individual plates. Have you ever been to BBQ where you were not given your own plate? I most definitely wasn't. How would you eat salad for example without a plate?
There would be platters on the table and a stack of plates as well, everyone gets a plate and puts on it what ever they want, nobody eats from somebody else's plate not even couples. People stand or sit around with their own plates.
it all started from this perl
Shas, I forgot one. In a group setting, as when extended family members have come to meet you, it is considered impolite to the host for you and your lady (or any other person) to share food from a common plate.
what exactly does that mean? During my family dinners, we always have plates in the middle and every one gets from them what ever they want - SHARE. Why all of sudden it is impolite?
You won't see 2 people eating form one plate, but I'd think you won't see it anywhere..
(http://www.guide-guru.com/images/Russian_dinner.jpg)
Have you ever been to BBQ where you were not given your own plate?
Yes many times
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Wo Youv'e been in Aus fro what 10 years and you have not heard the Aussie saying all you need for a plate at an Aussie BBQ is some paper towel and a peice of bread well i have been to plenty of these BBQ's over the years.
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This rule is also true of formal functions. If you and a lady, or a close friend, are at a business or government reception with "finger foods" set out for guests, it is very important that you do not share a plate, no matter how convenient, for the same reason.
Mend I think you need to explain this to WO as i have taken my wife to many of these my wife likes to nick stuff of my plate but i am not allowed to grab something off hers while we are walking around associating with others. Once i grabbed a plate put lots of different food on it as we were walking around alot and this was going to be for us to share (was more convenient in my eyes) but she was horrified.
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Isn't it like that everywhere else? I've never seen people share plates..
Yes I was surprised to this as well. Are there places where they put one plate for two or more people??
Yes it is called a platter or finger food where everything is on the one platter and everyone shares the same platter very common at Aussie BBQ's
No, platter is a platter, finger food is finger food and has nothing to do with individual plates. Have you ever been to BBQ where you were not given your own plate? I most definitely wasn't. How would you eat salad for example without a plate?
There would be platters on the table and a stack of plates as well, everyone gets a plate and puts on it what ever they want, nobody eats from somebody else's plate not even couples. People stand or sit around with their own plates.
it all started from this perl
Shas, I forgot one. In a group setting, as when extended family members have come to meet you, it is considered impolite to the host for you and your lady (or any other person) to share food from a common plate.
what exactly does that mean? During my family dinners, we always have plates in the middle and every one gets from them what ever they want - SHARE. Why all of sudden it is impolite?
You won't see 2 people eating form one plate, but I'd think you won't see it anywhere..
(http://www.guide-guru.com/images/Russian_dinner.jpg)
WO if you're having salad or beans or chili obviously you need a plate or bowl or something to hold it but at a BBQ if you have a hot dog or hamburger some people just use a napkin, no plate. Same thing if you order a pizza and share with friends, some people will just take a slice of pizza and a napkin. Happens all the time in Canada and the USA. Less to clean up and throw away. :party0031: :BEER:
As for 2 people eating from the same plate, that too happens all the time. Even now when my ex and I go out to an informal event, she wouldn't think of taking a plate for herself, she just nibbles on whatever I have, I know what she likes and make sure it's on the plate. :laugh:
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Wo Youv'e been in Aus fro what 10 years and you have not heard the Aussie saying all you need for a plate at an Aussie BBQ is some paper towel and a peice of bread well i have been to plenty of these BBQ's over the years.
Obviously my BBQs were more sophisticated than yours. To answer your question - NEVER, plates were always provided for those who needed them and since I'm not a fan of a "mystery bag" stuck in the middle of a bread roll I always have a plate like many other people around me. Even when we organise a BBQ at work just for ourselves we always have plates and not paper ones because it is only 5-6 of us and there is a dishwasher in a crib-room. Honestly I never was to a BBQ without plates.
Mend I think you need to explain this to WO as i have taken my wife to many of these my wife likes to nick stuff of my plate but i am not allowed to grab something off hers while we are walking around associating with others.
Ohhh... I just love it... ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) Yes, please explain it to me, I've never been anywhere and never seen anything. We are not talking about functions where finger food is served by waitresses mingling around with plates in their hands. Mendy who knows everything said that it is impolite to share food from common plate in Russia. So what happens to all those cold cuts and salads that are served on platters or in salad bowls? Nobody is allowed to touch them because it is impolite to share one plate?
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WO if you're having salad or beans or chili obviously you need a plate or bowl or something to hold it but at a BBQ if you have a hot dog or hamburger some people just use a napkin, no plate.
I'd like to remind you of original questionable post
Shas, I forgot one. In a group setting, as when extended family members have come to meet you, it is considered impolite to the host for you and your lady (or any other person) to share food from a common plate.
I ask again, if it is not polite what do they do if they want to take a piece of chicken or fish or what ever?
Even if the table is crowded with a billion friends and relatives packed in like sardines, you must have a separate plate as does your lady. The reasoning goes like this: Supposedly other guests will think that your host/hostess has not provided a plate specifically for you (you're the honoured foreign guest) and has slighted and ignored you.
doesn't it mean that all other guest already got their plates? And if foreign guest eats from the same plate as his lady it means he is ignored? How come his lady got the plate and he didn't? What a strange BBQ!!!!
This rule is also true of formal functions. If you and a lady, or a close friend, are at a business or government reception with "finger foods" set out for guests, it is very important that you do not share a plate, no matter how convenient, for the same reason.
When we are at church function for example with finger food served I ask my hubby what he wants because he is always busy talking and bring him a plate with food on it. Usually those plates are paper and small in size. I don't eat from the same plate with my husband, not because it is impolite but because, because I might go to another group of people and take my plate with me.
Mendy wasn't talking about BBQ, why all of sudden it was switched to them? Did you ever saw 2 people at the table and eating from the same plate? ::)
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Mendy who knows everything said that it is impolite to share food from common plate in Russia
WO, if I knew everything then I'd write a thread and close it without the possibility of comments. :)
Again, we agree exactly but somehow you are not understanding it. Nibbling off finger foods while walking around a large hall, or large ballroom or in a large house is acceptable.
However most Western men don't normally eat a meal in a small apartment bedroom which has been converted into a living room for day use, 12-15 or even more relatives are jam packed together around a table meant for 6-8 people at most. Now mind you, I believe that this is one of those things which makes Russia and Ukraine special. The emphasis on family and the participation of extended family with each other in not as common in Western countries.
At such a table, it is very tempting to share a plate. I'm personally not afraid in such an instance to share tasty Russian salads or even mashed potatoes on the same plate with Mrs Mendeleyeva. We kiss often enough that our siliva is mixed anyhow, what difference does a plate make?!
Notice that I said this was tempting because space is an issue in this senario, including the senario of my original post. However as I pointed out originally, such sharing would be horrifying to most Russians and easily offend a host/hostess.
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Reading all these comments about different styles, reminds me that my son learned another lesson while here. Invited by his cousins to the marina for a party. He got the impression that it was a catered affair, in the main room of the building. Turned out it was hot dogs and beer on the sandspit, and you cooked your hot dog on a open fire.(no plates) :laugh:
So for any invite, one needs to ask certain questions, to determine what to wear, and what the function you are attending is.
Whether it is a more formal one at the dinning room table, to a more causal one at a BBQ. Each one can be different for each invite, so asking some pointed questions is always a good thing to do, and can be done without any impoliteness associated with it. But a lot of people also give you that information as they know you will need it, without asking. :)
I think Mendy the best course of action is to allow your lady, to educate you, and take your cues from her, for that side of the family. As she hopefully will for yours. :nod:
But I do not see much differences actually between the two cultures for this part either. :-X
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Wo Youv'e been in Aus fro what 10 years and you have not heard the Aussie saying all you need for a plate at an Aussie BBQ is some paper towel and a peice of bread well i have been to plenty of these BBQ's over the years.
Some of my southern and midwestern brothers might share my confusion here...I see the hot dog, and you speak of hamburgers...but where is the BBQ? ???
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Fireeater, differences in culture is exactly the problem and these are commonly exhibited in communication. For example, in this senario we've already established earlier in the post what the man should wear, etc, based on the knowledge that he has been invited for a family meal inside a Russian home. Now we're looking at potential differences in etiquette.
Pacman, you bring up a good point and it relates also to my reply to our good friend Fireeater. What is BBQ? As you probably already know, it is different from West to East.
If we invite Russian friends to a BBQ at our summer dacha, the very last thing they'll expect to enjoy are hamburgers and hotdogs. In many parts of the West BBQ can be a generic term for cooking hamburgers, hotdogs, chicken and steak over an open fire. In the West a BBQ can also indicate a pork roast, or chicken and beef cooked outdoors as we think of in the various styles (KC, Memphis, Texas, California, North Carolina, etc).
[attachimg=#] шашлык = "shashlik" (shash-leek)
Above is what is generally cooked outside in the FSU. It is meat on skewers and the meat can be pork, chicken, fish, goat, and in some cases, but not usually, beef. This is шашлык and pronounced as "shashlik" (shash-leek). But it would be served only in an informal setting, usually cooked on a trip out to the forest or river or at a summer dacha.
Shashlik is rarely done at home since most FSU residents live in high rise apartments and don't have yards or large patios. It is also considered to be a fun and "informal" food and not usually served to a large gathering in a home when a foreign guest is present. They would want to fix something more "formal" as part of a true Russian feast when important guests are present.
Below: A "shashlik" cafe way out of Moscow and near a small village.
[attachimg=#]
Among all those letters advertising beer, dishes, coffee and tea, etc, at the very top you can make out the word шашлычная. A "shashlichnaya" is literally a "shashlik house." As you can see this is a very informal setting and not the place you'd take a first time foreign guest who is coming to your home as the guest of honour.
[attachimg=#]
Above: at the same little cafe this is the "dining room" out back which extends from the yard of the cafe owner's home next door to the cafe.
Guide to the cafe signs for new members:
шашлычная = shashlik house
горячие блюда = hot dishes
кафе = Cafe
кофе = Coffee
чай = Tea
пиво разливное = beer unbottled (draft beer)
These photos help illustrate the fact that "BBQ" in Slavic culture is a very informal affair. Fun of course, but not what you will be served at a first time gathering of family at the home of your lady's family with you as the honoured guest.
What you very likely to experience at such an event is below:
[attachimg=#]
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Mendy
A BBQ at least where I am, could mean anything from what you have listed to full roasts, complete chickens, fish, ribs, even your shashlik, but we have a different name for it here. I can even buy it prepared and just cook it, all in different meats. All done by using each of these, gas,charcol, to an open fire. Ever see a roast that feeds twenty cooked by a campfire, and comes out like you did it in the oven. I have. ;D Potatoes, vegtables, mushrooms can be done as well. I even been part of corn roasts, yet they are also a BBQ, and outdoors.
Setting can mean outdoors, or that only the food has been prepared that way. The church had theirs two months ago, the potatoes and roasts were done on the BBQ, but the meal was inside the education building. But that word BBQ can mean an informal type meal, (like hamburger and hotdogs) to a more in depth one either inside or outside.
To a lot of us here BBQ is the way it is cooked, not what, nor may represent the occasion, or setting. My ex always referred to our gas BBQ as her outdoor oven. ;D
As for the etiquette part, my mother must have some Russian in her then, since a lot of what you are saying seems to be what I was brought up with. :laugh:
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Being a master griller and not too bad a slow smoker - I love to do what we call Barbeque (Grilled) Shishkabobs - meat veggies and sometimes large shrimps and chicken (Beef, Pork Tenderloin Chunks, Shrimp or Chicken marinated separately overnight) chunks on skewers brush with anything from sauces to beer to keep them moist and from burning and turning often over red coals, hardwood or low gas grill.
I have a grill basket that I line with lemon slices and brush melted butter over the flip side of scallops, lobster and fish fillets the lemon side steams and only the lemon burns and the buttery brushed side browns and spices added to taste and its delicious when served with a ice cold beer!
From what I can see in the pics Shashlik is mostly lamp beef or pork only but the same idea grilled over and open flame.
Unless there is a secret I am missing here. :smokin:
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Cufflinks-You're making me drool!
In my corner of the universe, we have a very clear distinction between BBQ and cookout; a cookout is inviting a few friends over for the evening for burgers, dogs, brats, steaks or chicken and to suck down a few beers.
A BBQ is an event...lots of people, live music, lots of alcohol, tons of food, and the center piece of the whole thing, a whole hog cooked in the ground. It usually last for a couple of days. Yes, sometimes it's pork ribs, or chicken (rarely do we BBQ beef here), but the whole hog thing is much more fun.
So here, if you invite someone to a BBQ, they're going to be VERY disappointed if they see you flipping burgers on your Weber...
Now I know why so many RW go on about "kebabs"...nice skewers, btw!
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Thanks Mendeleyev that was really interesting and informative. Some of the etiquette reminds me of other cultures I've spent time in. Got to tell you though, I'm feeling Jareds' horror at the toilet paper disposal :ROFL:. :sick0012:
I think I'd go a whole packet of Imodium+ and maybe a dab of superglue just to be on the safe side.
I've used the outdoor earth toilets in East Africa and they are fine. No smell if they are deep enough. Deep enough usually means you can't hear any impact. The worst thing about them is whats lurking in all the corners :hidechair:. Yeeeesh, way too many legs. And way to big for a northern bloke. Not so much a house of many thoughts, as one thought. "Please Lord if you let me out of here without something attached to my butt I'll never........."
No way could I keep up with that level of alcohol consumption, I'm a proper lightweight.
I love the poster early on of the Soviet fighter planes. Like Soviet Pop Art. I'm fussy but I'd put that on the wall.
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Mendy,
By looking your photos I got an impression that you love Russian hospitality (I meant a huge table with food)...isn't it? I wonder if it is not same in your country?
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I think I'd go a whole packet of Imodium+ and maybe a dab of superglue just to be on the safe side.
My son can't visit any sort of toilet like "a hole in the floor" so when we travel he just stops to eat.
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Mendy,
By looking your photos I got an impression that you love Russian hospitality (I meant a huge table with food)...isn't it? I wonder if it is not same in your country?
Things are a bit different in American/Canadian households, probably because so many travel by car, and there is almost always a convenient cafe or restaurant, so if a guest arrives at an odd hour (say 3pm or 10 pm) they would not expect a full meal to be offered. In Russian/Ukrainian homes (even those in America) they will prepare a full meal for the guest, no matter what time it is
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Thanks Mendeleyev that was really interesting and informative. Some of the etiquette reminds me of other cultures I've spent time in. Got to tell you though, I'm feeling Jareds' horror at the toilet paper disposal
Fo, thank you. The good news is that you see this in Russia and Ukraine less and less. Many homes, especially in the larger cities, have modern facilities. It make look and operate differently, but it works. :)
Mirror, I love Russian salads most of all. Most of our meals are reasonable but when special guests from a long distance come to visit most families I've seen make a big deal of the event.
You are a good cook yourself and I imagine that you have some favourite recipes you enjoy making for guests.
Mirror brings up a valid point in that not all meetings will have the feel of a banquet. If your lady and her family are still uncertain about the International marriage concept, or perhaps they are stretched on funds, a large meal might not be realistic.
Here is my personal code of conduct in that situation: I resolve to treat my host/hostess with the same respect no matter the size of the event. They didn't have to invite me into their home--but they did. For an evening or just an hour, they gave me the honour of stepping into their lives. I will be thankful for their hospitality.
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Things are a bit different in American/Canadian households, probably because so many travel by car, and there is almost always a convenient cafe or restaurant, so if a guest arrives at an odd hour (say 3pm or 10 pm) they would not expect a full meal to be offered. In Russian/Ukrainian homes (even those in America) they will prepare a full meal for the guest, no matter what time it is
Ah! I see it is different,yes.We always suggest visitors to stay in our home and always make a table with food any time when these guests come.
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Being Thankful:
A very wise man, Saint Paul, wrote "in everything give thanks." So lets learn some words and phrases associated with being a good guest.
The Russian word for "thank you" is спасибо. It is a really special word and carries a meaning much larger than simply "thanks."
The origin of the word спасибо has a natural connection with the long tradition of Orthodoxy in Russia. In earlier centuries it was common for people to express gratitude to another with the phrase "God save you," спаси вас/тебя Бог. Over time the expression was shortened and today the letters of that phrase spell спасибо. It is sounded as "spa-SEE-bah."
To express something like "thank you very much" you simply say спасибо большое (thank you big), "spa-SEE-bah bal-sho-yeh."
Next up is пожалуйста. Experts say this is the third most used word daily in Russian life. It means several things: please; certainly! by all means!; you’re welcome!; don’t mention it. You can safely use it for any of those.
The great news is that пожалуйста covers both "please" and "you're welcome" with one word! Naturally you must first learn how to say it. :chuckle: Really it's learnable so lets work at it. пожалуйста is sounded like "pah-ZHA-lusta." Not so bad after all! :party0011:
Moving forward, the next word is "hello." Now I'm certain that you've learned how to say a version of this word, привет, "pri-VYET." That is easy and you should know that in many situations it's inappropiate to use unless you know someone well and are the same approximate age and status/rank. For close friends it's fine, but to meet her parents or grandparents or the traffic policeman who pulled you over, or the ticket cashier at the train station, its assuming way too much.
So, let's learn how to greet a stranger with a proper hello, здравствуйте. Don't worry it only looks a mouthful, it too is learnable. здравствуйте is spoken as "ZDRAST-vuy-tye."
Although its used as "hello" it really doesn't mean that. More literally, здравствуйте means “I wish you to be healthy” but in Russian its the highest and most respectful way to say "hello."
There is a variation on this one, slightly easier and almost as formal. You're also safe when using здравствуй (ZDRAST-vuy) as "hello."
Another very useful phrase is как поживаете? This is a formal and more appropiate way to ask "How are you?" than some of the informal and often potentially inappropiate phrases offered on the Internet. With a little practice this can be mastered quickly. как поживаете? can be sounded as "kak pah-zhi-VIY-yeh-tye?"
Naturally when greeting someone you'll wish to politely express your pleasure at meeting them. That is done with the very easy phrase of очень приятно. This phrase means "very pleasure (to meet you)" and its easy to speak. Just say "ochin pri-YAhT-nah."
If you find the need to step away for a moment, or get someone's attention, a good word to say "excuse me" is извините, "izvi-NEE-tye."
Finally, it becomes time to say goodbye. The Russian version of goodbye is actually two words jammed together into something which sounds like one word. Hmm, just like our English "good-bye" come to think of it.
Goodbye in Russian is до свидания. Here is how to say goodbye in Russian: "da svi-DAh-niya."
Those are actually pretty easy, right? I'm confident that you did very well! tiphat
Some of our readers may be new to the Russian language and forming some sounds could be a more difficult experience. Therefore I recommend a quick trip over to www.listen2russian.com and listen to the phrases while looking at their phonetic spelling. To hear some of the words from this post about "being thankful" and other common greeting phrases, follow this link (http://listen2russian.com/lesson02/c/index.html) to their lesson on greetings. Scroll up and down the page and click on a player button to hear any of the words and phrases as you go along.
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How different will culture be in the Ukraine?
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Not much, in general.
Each FSU region has it's own special nuances on specific traditions, but this topic is general and fairly uniform.
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Thanks for the informative article. The points you made are really relevant. I would say they r relevant not just to FSU but to all cultures across the world. Besides would say the culture is best enjoyed when you immerse yourself in it.
That is of course my point of view.
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Some great advice here. I found much of it to be the case. In particular, being brave and singing a song (even a pop or rock song) at a celebration can be a great way to impress. I'm going along to a Russian wedding reception soon, and have been told 'we must take some flowers'. But remember it's only odd numbers for happy occasions.
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Very interesting thread!
I have a couple of questions though.
How does one handle not wanting to partake of certain foods?
For example: Mayonnaise, in most cases makes me gag. Personally, I would rather decline the dish than force my host to endure the inevitable look on my face.
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I have a couple of questions though. How does one handle not wanting to partake of certain foods?
For example: Mayonnaise, in most cases makes me gag.
Personally, I would rather decline the dish than force my host to endure the inevitable look on my face.
Well, you can just say: "Excuse me, I don't like Rusisan \ Ukrainian mayonnaise..." - and hopefully nobody would force you to eat a dish containing that highly poisonous substance by pointing a Kalashnikov to your head or any other part of your body you might possibly value :)
Though you might experience a difficulty in finding a dish NOT containing mayonnaise - but that's another story :biggrin:
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Olga,
I was not implying that anyone would put a gun to my head...... :P It is just what is tactful in one place, is not necessarily as tactful in another. :hidechair:
One of the things I did have a hard time explaining to people is that even though I am an American, and as such, generally eat like a horse, I cannot consume the vast amounts food offered when visiting a Ukrainian home. I find myself rather full on about 1/3 the volume. No matter how hard I tried to explain it, it seemed that I was greeted with disbelief. :o
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Olga,
I was not implying that anyone would put a gun to my head...... :P It is just what is tactful in one place, is not necessarily as tactful in another. :hidechair:
One of the things I did have a hard time explaining to people is that even though I am an American, and as such, generally eat like a horse, I cannot consume the vast amounts food offered when visiting a Ukrainian home. I find myself rather full on about 1/3 the volume. No matter how hard I tried to explain it, it seemed that I was greeted with disbelief. :o
LOL, it reminds me of a Ukrainian commercial. The "city" guy comes to his "village" fiancee and he has to prove her old-fashioned parents that he's not a weakling by quantity of food that he eats. He pulls it off since he has pills that support digestion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9QdCmnB95Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9QdCmnB95Y) You are a lucky man, Harry, I thought it happens only in commercials these days. :laugh:
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Some great advice here. I found much of it to be the case. In particular, being brave and singing a song (even a pop or rock song) at a celebration can be a great way to impress. I'm going along to a Russian wedding reception soon, and have been told 'we must take some flowers'. But remember it's only odd numbers for happy occasions.
Beatles songs usually go down well - even 'back in the USSR !' - Try to learn a russian folk song -even if you sing it in an english version - you'll achieve near 'hero' status - and they might forgive you for 'passing over the food' ... *I* was more worried - rightly so - about how much Vodka 'they' expect you to consume :chuckle:
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If you are a first time guest in a home, or an "important" guest at a holiday meal, turning down food has it's problems. That is where a wife or g/f, combined with your compromising efforts too, try to shield you as much as possible.
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I have been reading through these forums for a few days now and have found it all to be quite an eye opener.
Another question then... What if you are unable (for medical reasons) to drink alcohol at all??
I personally cannot drink any alcohol or I get violently ill (even small amounts)... So what would you do in that situation?? :rolleye0009:
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Just don't drink. But explain very early, best even before you travel, that you have a medical condition preventing you from alcohol consumption. That will give the lady time to prepare her family for the reasons you cannot share in toasts, etc.
Russians/Ukrainians are among the most gracious hosts in the world and will go to great lenghts to accomodate and please if they understand your needs.
Have fun and enjoy yourself!
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On NOT drinking a thousand shots of Vodka, I put wine or Champagne in
front of me and toasted with that and took a small sip. When they noticed
I wasn't drinking vodka, I replied that lady with me was too small to carry
me home.
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Just don't drink. But explain very early, best even before you travel, that you have a medical condition preventing you from alcohol consumption. That will give the lady time to prepare her family for the reasons you cannot share in toasts, etc.
Russians/Ukrainians are among the most gracious hosts in the world and will go to great lenghts to accomodate and please if they understand your needs.
Have fun and enjoy yourself!
Good to know!
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Just don't drink. But explain very early, best even before you travel, that you have a medical condition preventing you from alcohol consumption. That will give the lady time to prepare her family for the reasons you cannot share in toasts, etc.
Russians/Ukrainians are among the most gracious hosts in the world and will go to great lenghts to accomodate and please if they understand your needs.
Have fun and enjoy yourself!
Good to know!
It could be because most of our guests are physicians (colleagues of my wife's), but no one seems to think it strange that I drink very sparingly. I often hear about people who are considered "strange" when they don't drink much, but I personally have never experienced this.
I simply don't make a big deal about it. I may actually have a glass of "Coke Light" or even mineral water that I simply use when toasts are offered, if I have already consumed my small amount of wine. I also rarely have had any vodka--the little I drink might as well be more enjoyable than that, so I generally limit myself to a small amount of wine.
One suggestion, though--don't try to out-drink the local men. That rarely works, and most FSUW I know are definitely *not* impressed by a man who drinks beyond his reasonable limit.
As is so often the case, YMMV.
David