I wanted people to know how things turned out, so I'm going to summarize and keep it brief and to the point as best I can. I think it's relevant FROM AN IMMIGRATION STANDPOINT, because WHAT THE HECK DO YOU AS A US CITIZEN, DO WHEN ALL HECK BREAKS LOOSE AFTER YOU'VE BROUGHT YOUR FIANCEE OVER?
.......
I'm not necessarily looking for any advice or comments here. I simply wanted people on VJ, and other places I have posted about this whole episode, to know how things ended. I don't claim that I was blameless or perfect.
You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed, to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...
Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?
Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that you didn't tell us.
Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.
If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.
Phil,
Sobering story! It seems that you were perhaps protected by some guardian angel.
For my self I am also curious to know more about your time together with her and her daughter in Ukraine. Did you meet any of her family or friends?
Also did you ever get to know the daughter as a person?
AvHdB
Phil avoided being drawn and quartered but readers should be aware that the outcome had more to do with luck than with management. Had the woman been a bit more clever and had she relied on a women's rights group (instead of the half-wit that she was screwing) for legal advice, things might have been very ugly. If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.
You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed, to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...
Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?
Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that you didn't tell us.
Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.
You mentioned a couple of times in your post that she wanted to sleep at 1 pm. It's very true. It takes as many days as time zones you crossed, to adjust to local time. It takes at least a week to adjust to local time.You probably wanted to sleep with her right away , and she was not ready for that, was too tired. And it's fully understandable...
Before coming to USA on fiancee visa she had to get medical exam, what does it say? Does she have any kind of emotional disorders? How many times did you see her before she came to USA? If YES, did you see any signs of any kind of psychological abnormalities?
Many people who come to USA from Eastern Europe are in the state of shock for a while...
It was not a good idea to bring your ex girlfriend when that woman was still in the house. Why did you bring her anyway? It was a straight message to a Ukrainian woman that you would never be devoted to her and the family. I believe something had happened between two of you that you didn't tell us.
Looks like you were ways below her expectations. I hope you are happy again now. Good luck.
Forgot to address the medical/mental health question... Yes, I believe she has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) Basically the only thing the immigration process could have discovered would have been if she had been committed to some institution. It used to be part of the consulate interview process, to get a "crazy report" showing they had never been institutionalized, or did not suffer from mental illness. My ex did not have to go through this process, for whatever reason. Also, BPD would not necessarily lead to institutionalization, and standards for institutionalization are probably different there. For example, self-mutilation/cutting would not necessarily lead to institutionalization, not that she was a cutter, I don't think she was. She managed her BPD in other ways. Also, it seemed to get more pronounced (the mood swings) after the birth of her daughter around age 25, from what she told me. Also, my ex would have just bribed to get the report she needed. She did that with some of the medical/vaccination stuff. That's how business gets done there.
Phil,
Now you seem to be seeking some kind of justification.
Forget justification... it's over isn't it?
Where were your blind spots?
Phil avoided being drawn and quartered but readers should be aware that the outcome had more to do with luck than with management. Had the woman been a bit more clever and had she relied on a women's rights group (instead of the half-wit that she was screwing) for legal advice, things might have been very ugly. If anyone takes anything away from this tale of woe, it is the importance of getting to know someone well before sponsoring her.
You have information that she was screwing him? Do share that data. Well, maybe in a threesome with his wife, after I had her removed. That seemed to be one of this guy's fantasies, and perhaps his dominant reason for convincing me to bring her here in the first place. He was like her fan club, but she didn't show the BPD side to him, because he wasn't a close enough person. Maybe in almost two months at his house, she showed that side, and they had their threesomes. She was his interpreter when he met his wife. And the two of them, my ex and his wife, were friends, off and on, for years.
Just when I thought we were going to get through this without hearing about BPD again...
Phil, you were lucky. And again we only are getting one side of the story....
She screwed him one way or the other, I suppose.
Yes, I'm doing my best to be accurate and fair, but it is from my point of view. Shall I include angry emails she wrote me,' and invite her to participate here?
BPDs also rearrange facts in their heads to match their emotions, and convince themselves of the correctness of their alternate reality. So it would certainly be colorful and entertaining even if not always factual. VJ deleted her posts from the thread there, unfortunately, for TOS violations.I would have preferred they remain. She was trying to say she was held prisoner and trafficked. Doesn't exactly jibe with being removed via a restraining order.
P.S.what and where is VJ?
For now I'll just say I excused her bad behavior as either cultural differences or simply being extremely stressed.
I was ignorant of personality disorders like BPD. I allowed her American friend to explain away her behavior on those grounds and accept his and her assurances she would be normal woman once in USA.
Anyone who is poo-pooing BPD is simply unaware and inexperienced like I was before this mess.
OMG,
The OP apparently came here to get away from bizarre advice .. I REALLY hope he doesn't take that of andrewfi ( the marketeer - turned 'shrink') too seriously ... he points out to Rasputin the dangers of generalisations and proceeds to do JUST that..
Based on some of his assessments re the 'plights' of other members 'afflictions' when they take issue with his pronouncements - this post should carry a warning notice :(
Rasputin, as is so often the case a generalisation can be misleading.
moby, are you still drunk?
I am not a shrink, but I have lived with a woman with BPD as you already know, but perhaps like many topers your memory has taken a hit?
Don't forget moby that pretty much all human communication involves some degree of generalisation - the trick that you have yet to master is to understand the degree to which generalisation is appropriate.
As you, moby, did not notice I gave very little advice, you misread or chose to invent stuff again - with you it is hard to know which you are doing at any one time, maybe you do both simultaneously. ;) Hey, two things at once - will wonders never cease.
Not being a pop PSYCHO-analyst (just a normal analyst of life) besides the evil wife of satan behaviour - my experience with BPD and Bi-Polars is that their attention spans very greatly from moment to moment. It is extremely hard for them to focus. We hired one woman as a web consultant on a work made for hire independent consulting basis - one or two days she would go through a manic creative burst and then a week would follow where she was lost and nothing got done... so focus was a major issue for her and work just did not get done. In the case of the OPs fiance' she exhibited clear focus on getting married now! Which the OP clearly saw as a very red flag - did she have BPD? Perhaps, but she did have a clear focus on her goal which was a GCG mule to rake over the coals and she had the help and advice of a USA resident "friend" egging her on.
In retrospect this may have been a very well thought out and planned effort on the UAW's part and just poorly executed by her inability to keep her horrendous behavior under wraps.
This is one of the oldest scams in the International-W (Asia, RU-UA-Latin America ladies etc) arsenal - many folks chalk it up to medical or cultural issues when the simple answer might have been the OP was just an easy mark in the UAW's mind - she having been a terp for a while in UA may have decided why not find her own little pot of gold at the end of the USA/UK/EU rainbow and our OP was just the unlucky target. The GCG DV scams are legendary and devastating - the idea that you show you care for a woman and her child only to have sex trafficking and slavery charges thrown at you - what if he was a teacher or a trusted business person with a reputation to protect - he could have been ruined - these types of charges are very sobering and a real warning to any western man in this process. Difficult women and bad behavior go hand in hand and never get any better.
My experience with sharp FSUW in the states when asked if I should bring an FSUW over to the USA is a blunt "Why not you will get at least 2 good years out of her!" Also in biz in the RU-UA-STANS you learn that what people say and what they do are often different and why it is so important to really know someone the way you would in the USA before you bring them into the inner sanctum sanctorum of your life and possibly expose yourself to someone who could do harm to you while you sleep. This could have ended much much worse for the OP and serves as a warning to us all really.
He had identified problems before she came to the USA and he identified problems before getting married. The problem with most is that they ignore the obvious and simply write it off. If I were dating someone and I were observing erratic behaviour, I would not wait for the psychological assessment to do a long soul searching as to whether I want to be in that relationship and would certainly not be buying the pop psychology how-to books. Sure, if you discover something after marriage, you have to do your best to deal with it. However, if you suspect something, anything, in the first weeks of dating (i.e. you are blaming culture or anything else for behaviour you do not like), or at any point before marriage, it is reasonable to assume that things will get much worse and not better after marriage, and then you have to seriously consider ending the relationship.
P.S.what and where is VJ?
visajourney.com
He got some crazy advice and opinion over there, which is why he got invited here.
...
With BPD if a person develops an attraction for another then there is going to be very little to give the game away, particularly in the context of a bloke importing a woman to another country to be his wife.
For a start, if a borderline is attracted to a person they will be loving, attentive, kind, great company and likely the best shag of a bloke's life. Sex is something of a core competence for borderlines.
At the heart of the malady is a fear of being alone and to that end sufferers do all they can to bring people close to them and to keep them there.
The problems come later as the borderline will usually act in ways to 'test' the attachment and devotion of her partner - this very activity will often drive friends, family and lovers away - BPD sufferers are often quite lonely as a result. In my experience there was plenty of time for a wife hunter to fall in love, and import his fiancee before anything would show up as wrong.
Of course, the woman's family will likely know there is something wrong but they will beglad to see the back of herhappy to see she has met a good man and so will say nothing, and, of course, because the foreign swain is not, unlike yourself, fluent in the local language he will not easily detect issues that arise from the way these people can speak, not can he easily ask questions of the family - until too late.
In the context it'd be quite easy to ascribe the negative features of BPD to culture shock, particularly if one was not familiar with that syndrome.
I do not know if this woman is a borderline, but if she is then the reaction to the stress of moving to a new home may well have been enough to trigger a flip from one who almost idolises her man to one who thinks her man is the most imperfect creature under the sun. BPD has been described as an extreme abreaction to stress - I think that is a little simplistic but I know that a man who can control and manage the environment of his BPD partner to minimise stress will see positive results.
Sometimes women (and it is largely women who suffer with BPD) can, after flipping to disdain, flip back to the original man but it is not common - the effort required in justifying the change from love to hate and back again is simply too much for most women to manage - in my case though it did happen, more than once. There are reasons why it happened but they are not likely easily replicable and probably not something the OP would want to do anyway.
Truth be told, it is likely that more than a few women who self export, or who choose that route do so as a way to 'self medicate' issues including BPD and given the contracted courtship precess and imperfect communication it is no great surprise that women seem to be lovely women in their home country but turn into shrews when they move.
...
In my case, I had known the woman for some 3 years before we started to live together and after almost six years of knowing her I can assure you that most guys would not know there was anything wrong with her if they knew her for only a few weeks on a daily basis. On a wife hunting trip where the woman is being given the opportunity to escape, as she sees it, the nasty world that she inhabits, the man will be love bombed and the woman will be entirely sincere in her feelings and actions.
Thank you for telling your story. After 3 years I am still a newby, ( no have not found a gal yet I would cross the street for muchless the Atlantic, or pacific.
Spent 4 years with a bipolar girlfriend, before I kissed her cheek and walked on.
I ask why is there such a high incidence of emotional and mental "problems" with EE folk?
Or is it only because that is what we find on the dating sites?
I'm really not sure if any of us are qualified to label our ex partners as bi-polar or some other affliction.... I do know that despite clear signs - some of us might see something so good in that person that they'll take a chance..it might work out - it might not..
Here's an article that seems to suggest my worries re so called experts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15213824
I feel sorry for folks in nations that don't permit a period of co-habitation before marriage ...
I got tired of having this argument with people who consider themselves guardians of all that is sacred and holy and professional in the mental health arena. Notice my use of the term "pervasive BPD behaviors". The truth is, Borderline Personality Disorder, BPD is a stupid and non-descriptive name for this condition. The truth is, a great many mental health "professionals" are incompetent, biased, lazy, political-agenda-driven, etc. There are quite a few good ones too, but then professional competencies are often narrow and focused in specific areas, and they may understand one set of issues well, but fail to recognize and be clueless on others. The truth is, most people with what we call BPD will never be "diagnosed", for assorted reasons, like refusing to participate in any such process. The truth is, the current legal/medical/HMO/insurance/pharmaceutical cartel dictates the economics and politics of mental health diagnosis, and the provider has a primary incentive to find a diagnosis that helps them get paid and provide services, and that is often more important than the correctness of the diagnosis.
My attitude is that it doesn't really matter if someone is formally diagnosed by a "professional" or not; look at their behaviors, and if there are a host of BPD-like behaviors, then it makes sense for the "close people" in that person's life to learn and use BPD-friendly communication strategies when dealing with the BPD. To me, BPD is a shorthand for describing a range of common behaviors, and good luck in getting a true BPD to cooperate with any efforts to "diagnose" them, short of being court-ordered. The BPD's instant response will be that YOU must be the one with BPD, since they are absolutely normal.
In the UK, ( for example) we aren't SO bound by the profit motive of insurance Cos - so we can ( largely) eliminate that factor..
I hear what you are saying and feel your passion - on a subject that is REALLY big in your life right now, but it is over - I'm not seeking any justification from you - but remain concerned that you are fixated on the subject when you are referring to an individual case.. your personal experience. As you say, this is a complex subject with so many variables.
This is not an easy thing to recover from and I hope - in the fullness of time - to see you're back in the dating game.
My attitude is that it doesn't really matter if someone is formally diagnosed by a "professional" or not; look at their behaviors, and if there are a host of BPD-like behaviors, then it makes sense for the "close people" in that person's life to learn and use BPD-friendly communication strategies when dealing with the BPD. To me, BPD is a shorthand for describing a range of common behaviors, and good luck in getting a true BPD to cooperate with any efforts to "diagnose" them, short of being court-ordered. The BPD's instant response will be that YOU must be the one with BPD, since they are absolutely normal.
This seems like the first step down a slippery slope to me :-X This is a good summary that I found online and the video brings up some excellent points: http://bpdinfo.borderlinepersonality.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:your-article-could-be-here&catid=39:loved-ones-general&Itemid=56 (http://bpdinfo.borderlinepersonality.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:your-article-could-be-here&catid=39:loved-ones-general&Itemid=56)
Personally, I would walk away from a relationship with BPD unless they acknowledge the issues and are getting help. And this was my bottom line with my ex-fiancee.
Thanks for sharing your love story with us. From everything you've said I understood that your woman had an emotional breakdown for unknown to us reason. We are not doctors here to diagnose her. She has left and the story is over. What I like about you is that you still say good things about her, and it's a plus to you as a MAN. Though you are fourteen thousand dollars shorter, but I hope
you've learned your lesson ... in a hard way. Money comes and go...
Next time meet the one you want to be with as soon as possible and spend as much time as you can with her before planning to spend life together, and pay attention to details. Good luck.
BPD is a very complex malady becasue it is a grab bag of a whole load of nasty stuff and no two sufferers will be exactly the same which is why Philnatseaman made the point about how the behaviours from one illness cross over to another.
Philnatseaman, I know that you spent waaaay less time together than I did but you made a good call. Yes, it is possible to live with a person with BPD but there is stuff that you do not know about because it has not manifested itself with you.
Because I had a very close emotional connection it was not so easy to close the door. It gets harder the longer you go on together.
I was very lucky in that my ex opened up to me and because of that she came to understand that not everyone was like her. It made it easier for us to make a move toward therapy but therapy is almost impossible for BPD sufferers to maintain - all sorts of reasons.
Rasputin, slippery slope it may be to try to cope with an illness like this but what has not been mentioned is that after the onset of the illness, which varies but often becomes an issue in the mid to late 20's most women are able to be living a normal life by the time they are 40. About 75% of BPD sufferers are in that situation by then, but by that time 10-15% of the whole BPD population will have committed suicide and many more will have ruined and solitary lives. The thing is that if one loves a person then one loves them. If one makes a committment to that person then it stands.
In my case, my ex is still a part of my life but we do not see each other very much. I am glad she is a small part of my life and she is happy to be part of mine.
I had the hope that we might make it through the bad years and toward better times as she gets older. Sometimes I still have that hope.
By the way, there ARE ways of dealing with BPD, ways of coping, strategies to enable communication. They were worth trying for the woman who wanted to be the mother of my kids.
How can you walk away from someone you love and who loves you? Except when they flip. And in my case it was much worse because normally when they turn against somebody they tend to stay that way, it is too hard for them to construct a world in which you were once the man they loved, then a terrible bad man they hated and back to love again. My ex turned away from me and then back again, not common at all - albeit they really hate to lose touch with people entirely - even their abusers and other hated ones.
If I had to choose, then please give me a partner with bipolar disorder or depression or any one of the illnesses that are just a part of the spectrum that afflicts BPD sufferers.
I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.
I loved her. A part of me still does. There were many good things about her, when she was able to show them. Eventually I came to realize that I could not have anything resembling the life I imagined for myself with this woman. I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.
I loved her. A part of me still does. There were many good things about her, when she was able to show them. Eventually I came to realize that I could not have anything resembling the life I imagined for myself with this woman. I had fallen in love with my fantasy of who she *could* be, and what we *could*have together, not with the reality of what was.
Thank God you came to that realization and did the right thing by sending her back.
Too many "white knights" would have gone ahead and married her thinking, "she'll change once she's been her for a while". It NEVER happens.
I apologize if I missed it upthread. How many times did you go to her home city in Moldova to visit her before filing the K-1? Didn't you pick up any hint of mental instability during those visits?
Yeah, her American friend insisted she would change for the better after she adjusted, after I married her, and he encouraged me to disregard her awful behavior and just go ahead and marry her, and then she could calm down. Of course, he also worries his wife would cheat on him at the drop of a hat given the opportunity, like she did when she went back to Moldova for a month without him, and he had to fly over and track her down and convince her to come back, so I also concluded he might not be the right person to get LTR advice from.
Of course, he also worries his wife would cheat on him at the drop of a hat given the opportunity, like she did when she went back to Moldova for a month without him, and he had to fly over and track her down and convince her to come back, so I also concluded he might not be the right person to get LTR advice from.
Yes, Andrew, unstable girls can be more effective than sildenafil. The side-effects can be a killer, however.
The above post illustrates why - having been invited from VJ to here, our OP ends up having his relationship talked about as if in a private conversation...to which he is not party.-
It's bad form..
Women who are afflicted with cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic & narcissistic) personality disorder symptoms can be very exciting indeed. The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around. You can't save 'em; one can damage oneself trying, though. As if relationships aren't difficult enough with nominally normal women...
The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around to stimulate them.
Aren't there other ways for men to get excitement in their lives?
Exactly! Aren't there other ways for men to get excitement in their lives? Go to a movie, go mountain climbing go hang gliding, do anything other than get married for excitement :coffeeread:
Andrew,
Women who are afflicted with cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic & narcissistic) personality disorder symptoms can be very exciting indeed. The men in their lives pay a terrible price for this excitement, however, and they will keep on paying, long after their tormentors are no longer around to stimulate them. You can't save 'em; one can damage oneself trying, though. As if relationships aren't difficult and risky enough with nominally normal women...
I knew I was rolling the dice bringing this woman over here. I just hoped I'd get lucky, and it would be as both she and her American friend insisted, she would just become a normal calm woman once in the USA.
We seemed to be on the same page on most things we discussed over phone and email about how our family and our household would operate. She told me she had scared off so many men with her emotions, being too emotional for them, and I was the only man who had been strong enough (stupid enough?) to deal with her emotions.
This is a perfect example as to why men must really listen to what women are really saying. It is also another reason IMHO why all the Skyping in the world won't really do much good if a man isn't paying attention: crazy can be much more easily ignored or rationalized away when chatting online :coffeeread:
I *wanted* to believe
We seemed to be on the same page on most things we discussed over phone and email about how our family and our household would operate. She told me she had scared off so many men with her emotions, being too emotional for them, and I was the only man who had been strong enough (stupid enough?) to deal with her emotions.
This is a perfect example as to why men must really listen to what women are really saying. It is also another reason IMHO why all the Skyping in the world won't really do much good if a man isn't paying attention: crazy can be much more easily ignored or rationalized away when chatting online :coffeeread:
. . . I just hoped I'd get lucky,
Many, if not most, Borderlines have jobs, a life, a social life and relationships. There are some traits that might be indicative but for sure, unless one already knew what to look out for a person would not know that there was a problem.
That goes double where there is not shared language and social context.
In my case, the person who was grooming my ex DID know the signs, the triggers and buttons - but even he did not expect what he got.
Even experts in identifying and manipulating certain types of people make mistakes in this stuff. In truth even trained professionals do not jump lightly or easily to an assessment of BPD.
It is very easy to say of another person 'well that's obvious' until one has walked that mile, or one has the empathy necessary to understand that stuff happens. It is one reason why you will not see me writing such guff.
Phil, yes, you are right about the signs and portents and diagnosis.
In our case I/we were fortunate in that when my Ex understood that not everyone was like she was it became relatively easy to wheel her in front of a professional.
...
The best he could give was his 'professional opinion' as to her condition for some of the reasons that you outlined, however, dealing with her on the basis of his professional opinion and his advice flowing from that opinion was hugely useful.
But her desire to continue to maintain her version of reality, to be "right" overrode all else.
My comments were more about the difficulty of getting a (suspected) behavioral BPD to participate in any kind of assessment by a qualified professional. A clever behavioral BPD will go to great lengths to avoid assessment, and anything that would undermine their view that they are the normal one and anyone who disagrees with them is the one with issues.
But her desire to continue to maintain her version of reality, to be "right" overrode all else.
Slightly ironic that this is exactly what you appear to be doing here. :dh:
Below is a rewrite from what you posted above.
MORE OR LESS ABOVE I HAVE USED YOUR WORDS. Short in my opinion is always better. Below are my words to end you story.
So you know I am willing and able to love again, perhaps with a woman from Ukraine, Moldavia or Timbukto. But I want a partner and a friend. If this happens than being lovers and intimate should be natural. Laughing and crying together our life. Holding hands and hugging with the occasional tickle as normal as breathing.
I want to say thank you for sharing your story it is insightful and helpful.
The best of luck in your search for a partner.
Do you have anything more relevant to offer? Or is this just a quick hit and run?But her desire to continue to maintain her version of reality, to be "right" overrode all else.
Slightly ironic that this is exactly what you appear to be doing here. :dh:
If you have a great plan, a brilliant approach that is sure to win a great woman and avoid disasters like mine, do share.
Perhaps in Sweden, you are familiar with that intellectual American folk philosopher, Malik Abdul Aziz. As he says, "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth". (His given name was Michael Gerard Tyson) So what's your plan? As you can tell, I pretty much got punched in the mouth.
And what's wrong with Swedish girls? I thought Sweden was the home of viking goddesses, free-loving, large-breasted blondes. Dude, didn't you watch the movie Dumb and Dumber, with the Swedish Bikini team? Isn't that life in Sweden? Or did too many of the hot ones get abducted to Estonia in big wars a couple centuries ago? Maybe the American feminists infected and ruined the Swedish girls? Or perhaps even worse, Swedish women started the radical feminist cancer, and infected the American women?
Below is a rewrite from what you posted above.
She was a very emotional woman in fact I prefer this in a woman. She acted strangely at times in Kishinev, and her American friend, whom I trusted, assured me these were simply cultural differences.
When she arrived in the USA, and continued to act in strange ways, I asked other Russian women, and they told me these problems were not cultural differences, or a result of a stressful life, but rather a feature of her character. I believe she has a condition known as Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), or, more descriptively, called Emotional Regulation Dysfunction. I learned a great deal about this condition. There were many, many, good things about her. I would have preferred to work through the problems. Unfortunately, she was certain everyone else was the problem.
I learned a great deal about her condition. Possibly I could have made a marriage to her work. There were some good times, as well as to many bad times. There are many good things about her. But life was so unpredictable with her, and the risk of terrible things happening became too high.. She lives in a different reality than what most people would consider "normal".
I will be the first to acknowledge that I was not perfect in every way, but I did the best I could. However, I was absolutely SHOCKED by her behavior after she arrived. I could not believe the things that were happening. It was like being in a bad dream. I believe she chose me because she saw that I could cope with her strong emotions, unlike most men, and remain calm. She apparently also thought that she could make me compliant and accepting, and she could wear me down to the point I would let her get away with worse and worse behavior. She was very incorrect about this. I am patient and accepting, when it involves occasional difficulties, but I have high standards.
I loved her very much. But eventually I had to realize that what I really loved was the untrue fantasy I had in my head about how things would be between us. The reality was so shockingly different, and unpleasant.
MORE OR LESS ABOVE I HAVE USED YOUR WORDS.
Short in my opinion is always better. Below are my words to end you story.
So you know I am willing and able to love again, perhaps with a woman from Eniarku, Aivadlom, or next door. But I want a partner and a friend. If this happens than being lovers and intimate should be natural. Laughing and crying will be our life together. Holding hands and hugging with the occasional tickles as normal as breathing.
So you know I want to say thank you for sharing your story ~ it is insightful and helpful.
The best of luck in your search for a partner.
I checked in with a friend who has a similar story. He posted his on VisaJourney and I contacted him via email. The main difference is that he married his girl quickly. Now divorcing, but battered by CA family courts for $3k per month spousal support for an illegal who refuses to leave USA. Going on six months now of this, waiting for divorce process to get done. Thank God I didn't marry my ex-fiancee or that's probably how my life would look. I'm pretty sure his gal is BPD also. I'll post more of his parallel story here too, as soon as I can manage.
I checked in with a friend who has a similar story. He posted his on VisaJourney and I contacted him via email. The main difference is that he married his girl quickly. Now divorcing, but battered by CA family courts for $3k per month spousal support for an illegal who refuses to leave USA. Going on six months now of this, waiting for divorce process to get done. Thank God I didn't marry my ex-fiancee or that's probably how my life would look. I'm pretty sure his gal is BPD also. I'll post more of his parallel story here too, as soon as I can manage.
I checked in with a friend who has a similar story. He posted his on VisaJourney and I contacted him via email. The main difference is that he married his girl quickly. Now divorcing, but battered by CA family courts for $3k per month spousal support for an illegal who refuses to leave USA. Going on six months now of this, waiting for divorce process to get done. Thank God I didn't marry my ex-fiancee or that's probably how my life would look. I'm pretty sure his gal is BPD also. I'll post more of his parallel story here too, as soon as I can manage.Oh brother (:)
I can't imagine being offended by your simple questions, especially after all the retarded and ignorant things people said on the VisaJourney board. Yours are pretty mainstream and fair questions. Well, except the psychology puzzle thing is rather retarded. But amusing, not offensive.
If your wife had cancer would you leave her because she was no longer a good investment?
So, the question stands. If your wife got cancer would you walk away from her?
If she had gone down with cancer during your 3 month period given by the USG to arrange your wedding ceremony, would you have put her on a plane back to where she came from or would you do your best to support her, based upon your existing commitment to her?
You can not knock Phil for doing that. It took you some jail time IIRC and certainly criminal charges and court time against you to get to where Phil got to in a few short weeks without any of the trials you had to go through - yes?
From the time after Spinoza, there was Father Cats (Jacob Cats) Many of his expressions and comments are still common in Dutch conversation.
One of the famous ones was/is "If you die one hour after you get married, you still have plenty of time to be sorry."
My father told this as the wedding toast in my first marriage. My bride's family was the oldest publisher of Christian Literature in America. It did not go over well. But in a broad way I agree with Andrew that marriage is for better or worse.
I would agree with you about marriage. Dating for better or worse...not so much. :)
I would agree with you about marriage. Dating for better or worse...not so much. :)
Absolutely true!
The point at which two people have decided to be husband and wife is a different thing though. A marriage certificate is no more than a document that puts the seal of a government upon what two people have already decided to do.
I can understand how people may vary, but over the past few years I have come to understand the true meaning of the words attributed to John Wayne: 'sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do'.
It seems strange to me that guys, outside the issue, can rely upon the artificial concept of a marriage certificate to avoid commitments that they have already undertaken. It does rather suggest a lack of familiarity with actually having to follow through on a commitment made in good times that is then called upon for fulfillment in tough times. I also regard marriage as a serious institution with promises made to a person that will not usually be ever made a second time.
It seems strange to me that guys, outside the issue, can rely upon the artificial concept of a marriage certificate to avoid commitments that they have already undertaken. It does rather suggest a lack of familiarity with actually having to follow through on a commitment made in good times that is then called upon for fulfillment in tough times. I also regard marriage as a serious institution with promises made to a person that will not usually be ever made a second time.
Do you agree there is difference between the intent to make a commitment and actually making that legal commitment? I contend engagement is the former while marriage is the later. The engagement period is a time when both parties should be evaluating whether they are really serious about making a lifelong marriage commitment to each other.
Always better to break up during the engagement than during the marriage don't you think?
It seems strange to me that guys, outside the issue, can rely upon the artificial concept of a marriage certificate to avoid commitments that they have already undertaken. It does rather suggest a lack of familiarity with actually having to follow through on a commitment made in good times that is then called upon for fulfillment in tough times. I also regard marriage as a serious institution with promises made to a person that will not usually be ever made a second time.
Do you agree there is difference between the intent to make a commitment and actually making that legal commitment? I contend engagement is the former while marriage is the later. The engagement period is a time when both parties should be evaluating whether they are really serious about making a lifelong marriage commitment to each other.
Always better to break up during the engagement than during the marriage don't you think?
Personally, I think engagement comes after the evaluating has been done and you're committed; the marriage is just formalizing that commitment.
I don't see a problem how you view it as long as each person in the relationship has the same understanding. My guess is that most women wouldn't take kindly to yours though... ;)
Brad, you are trying to split hairs in order to justify what seems to me to be a somewhat cowardly approach to parts of your life. That's cool, it works for you, but please do not extend your standards to me. If I make a commitment I do not need external justifications to enable me to change my mind, I do not seek them.
If you truly believe that your commitment to the several women who have been your wives is ONLY that bounded by external legalities then what you are suggesting makes sense. If however you believe that what two people agree between themselves carries at least as much weight as external legalities then you'd have a different view.
Brad, I promise you, I will never feel shame or embarrassment at the laughter of people who are unable to understand or deal with the concept of a person doing his best to follow through on a commitment made. That you might think it possible that a person should, or would feel so is instructive. Do not ever make the mistake of thinking that I am ignorant, it will always be a mistake. If you take pleasure from watching the pain of others then I will allow that you must have a fun filled life. There is, after all, pain and enough to go around.
It seems strange to me that guys, outside the issue, can rely upon the artificial concept of a marriage certificate to avoid commitments that they have already undertaken. It does rather suggest a lack of familiarity with actually having to follow through on a commitment made in good times that is then called upon for fulfillment in tough times. I also regard marriage as a serious institution with promises made to a person that will not usually be ever made a second time.
Do you agree there is difference between the intent to make a commitment and actually making that legal commitment? I contend engagement is the former while marriage is the later. The engagement period is a time when both parties should be evaluating whether they are really serious about making a lifelong marriage commitment to each other.
Always better to break up during the engagement than during the marriage don't you think?
Personally, I think engagement comes after the evaluating has been done and you're committed; the marriage is just formalizing that commitment.
I don't see a problem how you view it as long as each person in the relationship has the same understanding. My guess is that most women wouldn't take kindly to yours though... ;)
Shakespear IMHO is correct. Yes ideally the evaluating has been done and there is a commitment when a couple is engaged to be married, but it is still a commitment to step up to an even bigger and hopefully final commitment. Marriage is THE commitment and is sanctified socially, legally and at times by religion and faith. For these reasons an engagement can be easily broken off, while a marriage cannot.
Shakespear IMHO is correct. Yes ideally the evaluating has been done and there is a commitment when a couple is engaged to be married, but it is still a commitment to step up to an even bigger and hopefully final commitment. Marriage is THE commitment and is sanctified socially, legally and at times by religion and faith. For these reasons an engagement can be easily broken off, while a marriage cannot.
So you and Shaky there have a mini commitment which is a sorta, kinda, maybe commitment to possibly make that final, definitely, absolutely marriage commitment if everything goes okay?
:chuckle:
Shakespear IMHO is correct. Yes ideally the evaluating has been done and there is a commitment when a couple is engaged to be married, but it is still a commitment to step up to an even bigger and hopefully final commitment. Marriage is THE commitment and is sanctified socially, legally and at times by religion and faith. For these reasons an engagement can be easily broken off, while a marriage cannot.
So you and Shaky there have a mini commitment which is a sorta, kinda, maybe commitment to possibly make that final, definitely, absolutely marriage commitment if everything goes okay?
:chuckle:
Yes, because if either party discovers a "deal-breaker" they should walk away. If he discovers that she is a drug addict after the engagement, should he go ahead. No, of course not. If he starts beating her after the engagement ring is given, should she still get married? No, definitely not. In both of these cases they should be happy that they discovered their committed partners failings before the vows were said and the legalities completed.
Yes, because if either party discovers a "deal-breaker" they should walk away.
Shakespear IMHO is correct. Yes ideally the evaluating has been done and there is a commitment when a couple is engaged to be married, but it is still a commitment to step up to an even bigger and hopefully final commitment. Marriage is THE commitment and is sanctified socially, legally and at times by religion and faith. For these reasons an engagement can be easily broken off, while a marriage cannot.
So you and Shaky there have a mini commitment which is a sorta, kinda, maybe commitment to possibly make that final, definitely, absolutely marriage commitment if everything goes okay?
:chuckle:
Yes, because if either party discovers a "deal-breaker" they should walk away. If he discovers that she is a drug addict after the engagement, should he go ahead. No, of course not. If he starts beating her after the engagement ring is given, should she still get married? No, definitely not. In both of these cases they should be happy that they discovered their committed partners failings before the vows were said and the legalities completed.
Seems to me that some people take engagement far too lightly. In my world, you don't propose until you're absolutely sure. Either you know and you are committed, i.e engaged or married, or you aren't. Marriage is just publicly rubber stamping the commitment made when you propose, it's not "another level of commitment". That it's "easier" to get out of an engagement is neither here nor there and certainly doesn't make engagement any less of a commitment in my mind.
Yes, because if either party discovers a "deal-breaker" they should walk away.
How about he discovers she has a terminal disease? Time to bail out?
Seems to me that some people take engagement far too lightly.
Yes, engagement must not be taken lightly, but until the wedding either party can reconsider whether or not they will marry. If either party discovers something about their partner that will cause them great harm in the future, then they have the right to weigh their options, including breaking off the engagement.
Seems to me that some people take engagement far too lightly.
Yes, engagement must not be taken lightly, but until the wedding either party can reconsider whether or not they will marry. If either party discovers something about their partner that will cause them great harm in the future, then they have the right to weigh their options, including breaking off the engagement.
This is such an interesting topic. Some random thoughts in no particular order come to mind.
In Canada a guy who is engaged but not living with his lovely bride to be has no legal responsibilities. A man who is not engaged but takes up residence with a partner for more than three months(IIRC) has the same legal responsibilities as if he married. In essence the first three months he is engaged after which time he is considered to be in a common law marriage.
I only raise this point as it seems to narrow the divide between those in mutual agreed relationships versus those with a marriage certificate.
From a religious standpoint, in the Roman Catholic faith, one is not married unless the union is sealed by a priest. I mention this only from the view that a common law marriage is legaly binding but has nothing to do with spirituality. Depending on the audience, spirituality may mean as much or more than financial/legal responsibilities and will play a significant role in the attitudes and opinions of the respondents in this debate.
I am late to the party but have enjoyed following this thread.
Brad, where I come from 'several' means more than one but fewer than many. One might argue whether three in this context was many, but for sure it is several. ;)
Brad, where I come from 'several' means more than one but fewer than many. One might argue whether three in this context was many, but for sure it is several. ;)
The dictionary defines "several" as three or more. I have only been married twice.
So a few... :laugh: Like me...
So a few... :laugh: Like me...
Perhaps. But definitely not "several", :P
Seems to me that some people take engagement far too lightly.
Yes, engagement must not be taken lightly, but until the wedding either party can reconsider whether or not they will marry. If either party discovers something about their partner that will cause them great harm in the future, then they have the right to weigh their options, including breaking off the engagement.
And does that also apply after you get married?
Yes, because if either party discovers a "deal-breaker" they should walk away.
How about he discovers she has a terminal disease? Time to bail out?
My friend's father recently died of cancer. He lived two months after the diagnosis and much of those two months were spent in excruciating pain. If I were engaged to a woman who had a similar terminal disease, I would not have her go through wedding planning in pain. If the disease is truly terminal and there is no cure possible, then would it be in the woman's best interest to get married? Would she really want a wedding? In most cases, then, the answer would be no, I would not want to go ahead with a full-blown wedding because I am of the opinion that it it would cause more harm than good. If she wanted to to be married as that is what she wanted before facing the inevitable, then perhaps a very small ceremony would be acceptable given her health.
However, I understand why you are bringing up the terminal disease as it bring out the sympathy factor. However, answer my question. If you discovered that your fiance was a meth addict, would you marry her as you would be "committed"?
I think you missed my point.
When I ask if you (in general) bail out, I didn't mean to have a wedding. I meant would you stay with her and help her go through her ordeal or just simply say "sorry but need to find me a healthy one."
I think you missed my point.
When I ask if you (in general) bail out, I didn't mean to have a wedding. I meant would you stay with her and help her go through her ordeal or just simply say "sorry but need to find me a healthy one."
Yes, and I would agree with that. But, you are still evading my question. If being engaged as a form of commitment is so sacrosanct, would you have married a woman you discovered was a drug addict, a fact that you discovered after your engagement?
I think you missed my point.
When I ask if you (in general) bail out, I didn't mean to have a wedding. I meant would you stay with her and help her go through her ordeal or just simply say "sorry but need to find me a healthy one."
Yes, and I would agree with that. But, you are still evading my question. If being engaged as a form of commitment is so sacrosanct, would you have married a woman you discovered was a drug addict, a fact that you discovered after your engagement?
Misha, trust me. I would have known she was a druggie way before I would be engage to her. Question is: Would I become engaged with a druggie? Nah.
I do not often refer to dictionaries having eaten them for fun as a kneehigh but I tend to stick to 'A' not 'THE' dictionary. If we had only one then we could not really have word fights could we?
Shakespear IMHO is correct. Yes ideally the evaluating has been done and there is a commitment when a couple is engaged to be married, but it is still a commitment to step up to an even bigger and hopefully final commitment. Marriage is THE commitment and is sanctified socially, legally and at times by religion and faith. For these reasons an engagement can be easily broken off, while a marriage cannot.
So you and Shaky there have a mini commitment which is a sorta, kinda, maybe commitment to possibly make that final, definitely, absolutely marriage commitment if everything goes okay?
:chuckle:
Yes, because if either party discovers a "deal-breaker" they should walk away. If he discovers that she is a drug addict after the engagement, should he go ahead. No, of course not. If he starts beating her after the engagement ring is given, should she still get married? No, definitely not. In both of these cases they should be happy that they discovered their committed partners failings before the vows were said and the legalities completed.
Seems to me that some people take engagement far too lightly. In my world, you don't propose until you're absolutely sure. Either you know and you are committed, i.e engaged or married, or you aren't. Marriage is just publicly rubber stamping the commitment made when you propose, it's not "another level of commitment". That it's "easier" to get out of an engagement is neither here nor there and certainly doesn't make engagement any less of a commitment in my mind.
I have been married twice and for me at least engagement meant full commitment - the point at which we were both committed to each other, come he'll or high water. Some may see s some sort of cooling off period but for me it certainly not. I think it would have to be something really big to break the engagement... each couple would have their own definition of might be a deal breaker might be, certainly I am no one to judge anyone else.
I have been married twice and for me at least engagement meant full commitment - the point at which we were both committed to each other, come he'll or high water. Some may see s some sort of cooling off period but for me it certainly not. I think it would have to be something really big to break the engagement... each couple would have their own definition of might be a deal breaker might be, certainly I am no one to judge anyone else.
I agree, it should be something really big, but either you concede that potential deal breakers could exist or you believe that you should not break off an engagement under ANY circumstance. You can't have it both ways. I don't believe that an engagement should be taken lightly, but I am willing to concede that something unforeseen could come up in certain circumstances.
I have been married twice and for me at least engagement meant full commitment - the point at which we were both committed to each other, come he'll or high water. Some may see s some sort of cooling off period but for me it certainly not. I think it would have to be something really big to break the engagement... each couple would have their own definition of might be a deal breaker might be, certainly I am no one to judge anyone else.
I agree, it should be something really big, but either you concede that potential deal breakers could exist or you believe that you should not break off an engagement under ANY circumstance. You can't have it both ways. I don't believe that an engagement should be taken lightly, but I am willing to concede that something unforeseen could come up in certain circumstances.
But the degree of the "deal breaker" should be no different than it would be for a marriage.
My point has been from the beginning that you don't get engaged until you are as sure as it's possible to be, and once you are, the commitment that comes from engagement is no different than marriage. Personally, I shake my head at those guys that get engaged after visiting a woman for a week; I mean, seriously. :biggrin: And of course, those men will likely not be as committed as someone that spent many months or years getting to know someone before becoming engaged.
I was going to respond that once I'm engaged, the only way I would break it off is if she would go F**king around. Engaged or married, that IS a deal breaker.
Andrew said
Boris, there are no marriage certificates with my name upon them. Why do you ask? I trust that you understand my answer to your question.
I'm just trying to understand your experience with commitment. That's all.
Andrew said
Boris, there are no marriage certificates with my name upon them. Why do you ask? I trust that you understand my answer to your question.
I'm just trying to understand your experience with commitment. That's all.
Well now you know. But remember, badges and bits of paper do not tell one much about the realities as we now see in this thread.
Some marriages survive infidelity, yet I would not recommend marriage if one partner was unfaithful while engaged. Likewise, I can think of other deal breakers.
Andrew said
Boris, there are no marriage certificates with my name upon them. Why do you ask? I trust that you understand my answer to your question.
I'm just trying to understand your experience with commitment. That's all.
Well now you know. But remember, badges and bits of paper do not tell one much about the realities as we now see in this thread.
Nor do words.
I have been married twice and for me at least engagement meant full commitment - the point at which we were both committed to each other, come he'll or high water. Some may see s some sort of cooling off period but for me it certainly not. I think it would have to be something really big to break the engagement... each couple would have their own definition of might be a deal breaker might be, certainly I am no one to judge anyone else.
I agree, it should be something really big, but either you concede that potential deal breakers could exist or you believe that you should not break off an engagement under ANY circumstance. You can't have it both ways. I don't believe that an engagement should be taken lightly, but I am willing to concede that something unforeseen could come up in certain circumstances.
OK, in that case I concede that a deal breaker could exist. For example finding out she is really a he would probably swing it for me.
OK, in that case I concede that a deal breaker could exist. For example finding out she is really a he would probably swing it for me.
Thought you Swedes were supposted to be pretty understanding about that sort of thing? :o
I have lots of good Swedish friends in the town of Norrköping.
They've even taught be a bit of Swedish; "fitta" see? ;D
Jeff, I wager that looking back you now see that had you not ignored the red flags during the dating and engagement phase it would have been best for all to breaking it off before marriage as opposed to pushing ahead because you were "committed" tiphat
I can't imagine being offended by your simple questions, especially after all the retarded and ignorant things people said on the VisaJourney board. Yours are pretty mainstream and fair questions. Well, except the psychology puzzle thing is rather retarded. But amusing, not offensive.
After reading carefully your lengthy and detailed reply, it seems to me you're really not being honest with yourself.
IMHO, you possess a personality that has an overwhelming need to be right all the time. This would carry forward into a need to make sure all your planned actions were successful and worked out exactly as planned. You don't seem to have the ability to adapt to change easily. I'm guessing you're not a very good poker player as I suspect you have difficulty evaluating when to fold a losing hand.
If you read my own story if disaster (in the Train Wreck Room) you'll know that our situations has some startling similarities. After much self reflection, I determined one of the reasons I tried so hard to make a bad marriage work was because to submit to a divorce was to admit to failure. Friends, family and retaining "street cred" on various RW topical lists was affecting my better judgement, which caused me to waste 6-12 months of my life attempting to make an unworkable situation, workable.
I think you and Andrewfi are all in the same camp.
I'd be interested in reading your friends story. It would be helpful I you could invite him here and ask him to share his experiences.
When courting a lady from the FSU, it is normal and expected that "red flags" will appear during the courtship process. Some of the best "wisdom" shared on this form is the concept that once behavioral "red flags" appear in the FSU lady, they will not disappear, and will in fact get worse once the lady moves to her new environment.
Your story definitely reinforces that point.
<snip stuff about “trial period”>
So, the question stands. If your wife got cancer would you walk away from her?
<snip stuff about would you walk away>
Phil was in a different situation, he was NOT committed to the woman he was with, he did see the time together before marriage as a trial period of sorts and he did not have the years of connection that I did. In his situation I'd have done as he did:
When a problem arose he did his best to learn about the issue.
He did his best to analyse the situation
Having analysed the situation and likely outcomes he made a plan to deal with the case
He implemented his plan.
You can not knock Phil for doing that. It took you some jail time IIRC and certainly criminal charges and court time against you to get to where Phil got to in a few short weeks without any of the trials you had to go through - yes?
At the age of 16 I suspect the girl has an almost equal right to the mother. Certainly the daughter who is innocent in this debacle would gain a better understanding in her mother's sickness. I wonder what does Alexander feel about the daughter.
This discussion is being played out in courts in different ways around the world; is there an easy answer no.
Andrew is correct regarding this can be shitty towards the mother. But the relationship is sort of history, also my guess the mother has not told the daughter the fundamental truth.
I agree with Andrew.
A father is not the person who provides a sperm donation, but the one who is there for you in the middle of the night when you have a bad dream, who goes to work each day to clothe and feed you, and who supports you emotionally.
It could be that Nastya pushed Alexander out of Daria's life, but Nastya should've been the one to tell Daria.
In the end it ain't the most important thing in the world. Yes, the girl is pretty much all grown up and, fair do's, I think she does have a right to know who her biological dad is. Just that I am sure there are better ways of dealing with it than this relative stranger filling her in.
Daria is a great kid and I would have been very happy to have her as a daughter. It was only the mom that I couldn't stand. I also really liked Nastya's mom, Lara.
In the end it ain't the most important thing in the world. Yes, the girl is pretty much all grown up and, fair do's, I think she does have a right to know who her biological dad is. Just that I am sure there are better ways of dealing with it than this relative stranger filling her in.
True, in our world, the daughter's situation is absolutely unimportant.
In the 16 year old daughter's world, knowing who her father is and having a means of contacting him could turn out to be the most important thing in her world. She has a whole other side of the family that wants to know her. This is a girl who was suddenly abandoned at age 7 by the man she thought was her father. She knows something is wrong here. But the typical thing a young child will do is assume they must have done something, not have been good enough, and driving the missing parent out of their lives. So, reconnecting with a father who searches for her, and by all estimation is a normal man, and who would give her new opportunities in life, sounds like a good option. Especially when compared to serving years more as an emotional sponge, taking care of a mentally & emotionally unstable mother.
I failed to recall and mention that Nastya told me that Alexander (Daria's father), has been repeatedly trying to contact her, over the last few years. Nastya has been avoiding him. So Alexander is making the effort.
Daria is a great kid and I would have been very happy to have her as a daughter. It was only the mom that I couldn't stand. I also really liked Nastya's mom, Lara.
Nastya is the one who created this undesirable situation for her daughter. I believe she is not a fit and objective mother in matters involving her daughter, where she feels a risk of losing "control" over her daughter. Sure, there are better ways for a child to find out, but anything that requires Nastya's blessing is simply not going to happen.
Anyway, I'm glad Scout McTool is on the case, working on Daria's behalf to facilitate the reconnection with her father. He's the perfect man for the job.
:) I couldn't judge you my man. I think you are a good guy. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. That's why I came here. To read about other people's experiences in trying to find love. This is a difficult journey, whether you are looking overseas or just down the street. It takes a lot of courage to post stories about that search, because people aren't always kind.
Of course no interest... they are funded and politicized only for certain classes of victims) Scout then contacted ICE, and they also expressed disinterest, saying it is a USCIS matter
For what it is worth twice I have realized the kids are nicer than the mothers.
Find another woman, several women. Remove the imprint of this woman's sexuality from your mind. (Going out on a limb here, but guessing you have not had sex since she and you parted?)
hmmm... I think that most literate people would understand the question was rhetorical - a technique in writing used, in this case, to lead to demonstrate an identification with the reader.
Imprinting of a former lover on one's mind is a significant issue with moving on. With BPD sex is usually something of a core competence of the sufferer and is used to strong effect in binding a contact to her; thus it becomes important to change that imprint to enable moving on. This is stuff you'd know about if you had 'been there' or bothered to do a little learning before criticising.
In fact, in normal life, this is why we have and refer to 'rebound relationships' and why they are rarely ever long term. They form a transition from one serious relationship to another.
Welcome back moby, I hope your troubles are sorted and that you will henceforth not post like a twat. All you need do is 'do the learning' and not jump to conclusions. ;)
Find another woman, several women. Remove the imprint of this woman's sexuality from your mind. (Going out on a limb here, but guessing you have not had sex since she and you parted?)
To the OP... andrewfi's advice was spot on up to here .. move on..
But that doesn't mean you need to answer andrewfi's question re your sexual activities... It's none of his / our business.
Sex without love can be a very unrewarding - if not saddening experience - it is rather typical of our perennially single 'expert' to seem to suggest it might be just what you need !
You're going to find it REALLY hard to find a new partner if you discuss this past relationship in too much detail.
A tip I've learnt- and still forget - Breakups and their circumstances are most important to those directly involved and NOT the subject of pre-dating or first date conversations..they are more likely to be a BIG turn off.
Good luck, matey
For what it is worth twice I have realized the kids are nicer than the mothers.
Just be careful about where THAT thought leads you!
a woman with a child is usually a package.
a woman with a child is usually a package.
Hmm, AvHdB...
Can you make it clear, please ?
Are you inferring 'the package' brings more negatives than positives - i.e. baggage?
It's just that if you are, I'd like to suggest to the contrary ;)
Neither positive nor negative. It just is that a woman with a child is not going to leave her offspring behind to live with some "bloke" in the West. They are a package.
I have asked before would you move a child ~ youth aged 13 or so who is becoming an adult to a radically different system where she will be burdened with most likely a new language, a new social network (that established members might look upon her/him with disdain) and her mother trying to build a new relationship. Most of the opinions thought that the child would not have a problem. I tend to doubt that.
NB: It is refreshing to see you back Moby!
Neither positive nor negative. It just is that a woman with a child is not going to leave her offspring behind to live with some "bloke" in the West. They are a package.
Quite, but this package CAN be a positive.. !I have asked before would you move a child ~ youth aged 13 or so who is becoming an adult to a radically different system where she will be burdened with most likely a new language, a new social network (that established members might look upon her/him with disdain) and her mother trying to build a new relationship. Most of the opinions thought that the child would not have a problem. I tend to doubt that.
NB: It is refreshing to see you back Moby!
Well, having worn the t-shirt - kid was 4 years older - I'm still saying it was worth it.. and the lad wouldn't go back !
To the OP... andrewfi's advice was spot on up to here .. move on..
But that doesn't mean you need to answer andrewfi's question re your sexual activities... It's none of his / our business.
Sex without love can be a very unrewarding - if not saddening experience - it is rather typical of our perennially single 'expert' to seem to suggest it might be just what you need !
You're going to find it REALLY hard to find a new partner if you discuss this past relationship in too much detail.
A tip I've learnt- and still forget - Breakups and their circumstances are most important to those directly involved and NOT the subject of pre-dating or first date conversations..they are more likely to be a BIG turn off.
Good luck, matey
The precise nature of Nastya's disorder is irrelevant. She wasn't right for you on a grand scale; the beast is gone; that's all that matters, as far as she is concerned. Personally, I would have felt pretty good about letting such a woman slip through my fingers, not that it would be possible, at her size. The only important issues that need to be examined are why you were so easily duped and brought her here in the first place. Until you get this worked out, history could repeat itself.
For Phil I can say I have respect for his sharing this & for trying so hard to make the relationship be a success.
For others I think one can learn, take time to know who you are marrying. Make sure you speak the same language. Be certain you can resolve conflicts before the jump.
There is also a teenage daughter and maybe if we all live long we might see her side of the journey.
Phil saw red flags, but often in this endeavor there are red flags. If you can NOT trust your own judgement than a best friend or perhaps a winger can see the potential problems.
Perhaps in the end hope for the best and expect the worst.
andrewfi- agree she likely dint try to hide anything,
if she truly suffers a disorder she would be oblivious to it in many cases.
The OP complained about her acting this way when they were engaged and
he was visiting her in Ukraine.
She relocated on a K1, so as a fiancee in the states, engaged,
he posted and complained that she was acting exactly has she had on his last visit in Ukraine.
My point was this thread just seemed to be missing the forest, for all the trees.
It really doesn't matter why she acted like she did?
Her behavior was already not compatible with the OP after they were engaged in her country.
She then ,not at all surprisingly, acted exactly the same when they were engaged and in his country.
There just dint seem to be a need to dig deeper than the obvious.
This isn't about looking back differently with 20/20 hindsight, or there being a need to be prescient?
This is about staring at incompatible behavior, completely acknowledging it at the time,
and with absolutely no reason whatsoever to think it might change,.
to then expect it to be different when she relocates.
It isn't cultural, it is incompatible behavior.
It wasn't buried in any circumstances that could cloud it, it was right in his face.
In her country, then exactly the same in his.
That seems a lesson guys need to hear.
The points about not being able to see the problems clearly as she might have had BPD which is hard to diagnose, or how they will have more difficulty sorting out behaviors in another language and culture? While true, and those points have their own merit, that was not really the fundamental issue here?
He could tell, it was plain as day tio him , and he somehow expected a different result.
unrealistic expectations do a lot of these relationships in, both from the men and the women involved.
That just seems the real lesson here?
AJ, I doubt she hid anything.
The behaviour about which he was concerned in the US may well have had some aspects of similarity to back in Ukraine but those baheviours would have been much more normal in the context of her in her home environment with a stranger. In the US with her future husband? Not the same.
Should those things have been talked about? Probably but what would have come of it?
Learning of the scale and extent of the issues takes time. I know that if I had known almost 8 years ago what I learned about 4 years ago then things would have been very different, but I didn't and the scale and extent were different. Both women were functioning in ther own environment and problems came when they changed their respective worlds. They were both ill before but nobody knew. In both cases I am sure that family would have known there was something a little off, but not more.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but prescience, whilst wonderful is mainly an imaginary trait. ;)
Tom BPD is almost always associated with some other illness and often is misdiagnosed as being the primary illness, this is called comorbidity and is a bit of a bugger. Sadly the outcomes are different.
In a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.Wow. This story is hard to read. You should try CODA. I think you will get a lot from it.
QuoteIn a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.Wow. This story is hard to read. You should try CODA. I think you will get a lot from it.
QuoteIn a few weeks time, she wiped out everything I had with alcohol in it.Wow. This story is hard to read. You should try CODA. I think you will get a lot from it.
Phil... I had a similar experience with a Russian Ukraine woman from Kz. Online relationship May2001 until first visit Dec 2001... AndrewFi has it described exactly (when relations were warm, best love I had ever experienced). Second visit Dec 2002, Work assignment to her country July 2003, Married in KZ Sept 2003, Her son was 12 when we married. The controlling ways started showing just after the wedding, but I could suffer the hate swings because the loving times were so deep-felt. We moved to USA Jan 2005, and she obtained USA passport Oct 2010, Divorced Jan 2011 (same month Son turned 18). I would not change if I had to do it over again, as I had the longsuffering kind of love for her, and I still love my step-son even today!
Phil, I think you made some egregious errors but you managed to get through
them with you life and sanity intact.
One of the mods said I was mean to you (privately he said this) and after
reflection on those comments I agree.
I apologize
I hope all is well with you
Udachi!
Bill
I have come across a pretty interesting link that talks about BPD and how the BPD can really enmesh you in their dysfunction.
http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html (more general)
http://gettinbetter.com/key.html (specific to BPD)
And other pages on that site.
One thing I read somewhere else - the guy said that his BPD girl, "smelled" absolutely fantastic to him, even when she was not wearing perfume; that it was just some kind of heady natural scent. Did you notice any physiological things like that?
I have come across a pretty interesting link that talks about BPD and how the BPD can really enmesh you in their dysfunction.
http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html (more general)
http://gettinbetter.com/key.html (specific to BPD)
And other pages on that site.
One thing I read somewhere else - the guy said that his BPD girl, "smelled" absolutely fantastic to him, even when she was not wearing perfume; that it was just some kind of heady natural scent. Did you notice any physiological things like that?
No, my ex-fiancee simply smelled like any other chain-smoker.
In the second link you supplied, the stuff under ""STEP INTO MY PARLOR," SAID THE SPIDER TO THE FLY" is pretty much on-point.
From the same author and site, this link is very much on target for this discussion too:
http://gettinbetter.com/deathtrap.html
One issue in all this is that it becomes easy to ascribe all faults and failings to BPD. In that last linked article that seems to be happening.
Folks with BPD have clear and identifiable traits but I think it does us no favours to blame BPD for everything. It certainly does not help real BPD sufferers.
It is almost impossible for people with BPD to form long lasting and close relationships
On the upside, over 70% of those diagnosed with BPD, if they live long enough, are able to live relatively normal lives; the symptoms tend to abate across the late 30's.
It is almost impossible for people with BPD to form long lasting and close relationships
On the upside, over 70% of those diagnosed with BPD, if they live long enough, are able to live relatively normal lives; the symptoms tend to abate across the late 30's.
Based on seeing two such relationships - my feeling it is very hard for those who suffer to see how toxic they are. That they improve leaves me scratching my skull.
One issue in all this is that it becomes easy to ascribe all faults and failings to BPD. In that last linked article that seems to be happening.
Folks with BPD have clear and identifiable traits but I think it does us no favours to blame BPD for everything. It certainly does not help real BPD sufferers.
The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
...... Then, when I started seeing the previous girlfriend again, that drove her over the edge with abandonment fears......
She's not capable of understanding that her actions DROVE me to do these things;
I was going to respond that once I'm engaged, the only way I would break it off is if she would go F**king around. Engaged or married, that IS a deal breaker.
Either you’ve lost yours completely or you are too young to have ever developed one in the first place. I have stated my position, I have stated the results, and I have motivated my observations. You’ve put nothing in your response other than “… your demented mind”. In other words you're saying, "You're wrong" but offering no understanding or insight. Your lack of both logic and systematic rebuff is rather typical of the very circumstance I am speaking of ..... therefore I assume that you are a woman. Am I right?The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
You definitely lost your logic and systematic undertaking.... probably.... a long time ago.
The easiest way is to blame a Soviet-era Russian woman for your demented mind.
Either you’ve lost yours completely or you are too young to have ever developed one in the first place. I have stated my position, I have stated the results, and I have motivated my observations. You’ve put nothing in your response other than “… your demented mind”. In other words you're saying, "You're wrong" but offering no understanding or insight. Your lack of both logic and systematic rebuff is rather typical of the very circumstance I am speaking of ..... therefore I assume that you are a woman. Am I right?The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
You definitely lost your logic and systematic undertaking.... probably.... a long time ago.
The easiest way is to blame a Soviet-era Russian woman for your demented mind.
You have some very serious personal issues that are preventing you from having an honest and earnest discussion. That is why you make insults rather than debate or (at least) offer motivated replies.Either you’ve lost yours completely or you are too young to have ever developed one in the first place. I have stated my position, I have stated the results, and I have motivated my observations. You’ve put nothing in your response other than “… your demented mind”. In other words you're saying, "You're wrong" but offering no understanding or insight. Your lack of both logic and systematic rebuff is rather typical of the very circumstance I am speaking of ..... therefore I assume that you are a woman. Am I right?The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
You definitely lost your logic and systematic undertaking.... probably.... a long time ago.
The easiest way is to blame a Soviet-era Russian woman for your demented mind.
«Путаясь в соплях, вошёл мальчик.“
Илья Ильф
Записные книжки (1925—1937)
Ask your wife to translate if you are brave enough.
You have some very serious personal issues that are preventing you from having an honest and earnest discussion. That is why you make insults rather than debate or (at least) offer motivated replies.Either you’ve lost yours completely or you are too young to have ever developed one in the first place. I have stated my position, I have stated the results, and I have motivated my observations. You’ve put nothing in your response other than “… your demented mind”. In other words you're saying, "You're wrong" but offering no understanding or insight. Your lack of both logic and systematic rebuff is rather typical of the very circumstance I am speaking of ..... therefore I assume that you are a woman. Am I right?The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
You definitely lost your logic and systematic undertaking.... probably.... a long time ago.
The easiest way is to blame a Soviet-era Russian woman for your demented mind.
«Путаясь в соплях, вошёл мальчик.“
Илья Ильф
Записные книжки (1925—1937)
Ask your wife to translate if you are brave enough.
Jag kan tydligt se vad ditt problem är men det skulle vara bättre om en professionell psykoanalytiker berättar för dig.
You can have it translated if you think it will help. :reading: It will help ... but you probably won't take the advice within.
Still, not a single word of logic or insight contributed from you in opposition to my post, just childish insults. You'd be better off sticking to what you do best: :knit:You have some very serious personal issues that are preventing you from having an honest and earnest discussion. That is why you make insults rather than debate or (at least) offer motivated replies.Either you’ve lost yours completely or you are too young to have ever developed one in the first place. I have stated my position, I have stated the results, and I have motivated my observations. You’ve put nothing in your response other than “… your demented mind”. In other words you're saying, "You're wrong" but offering no understanding or insight. Your lack of both logic and systematic rebuff is rather typical of the very circumstance I am speaking of ..... therefore I assume that you are a woman. Am I right?The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
You definitely lost your logic and systematic undertaking.... probably.... a long time ago.
The easiest way is to blame a Soviet-era Russian woman for your demented mind.
«Путаясь в соплях, вошёл мальчик.“
Илья Ильф
Записные книжки (1925—1937)
Ask your wife to translate if you are brave enough.
Jag kan tydligt se vad ditt problem är men det skulle vara bättre om en professionell psykoanalytiker berättar för dig.
You can have it translated if you think it will help. :reading: It will help ... but you probably won't take the advice within.
You are simple like cheap underware….
Let me be honest and earnest: you are black-mouthing and insulting a woman of your choice that you sleep in the same bed and eat at the same table.
You are nobody.
Orchid is a long-standing and well respected member of this forum.I would say that's an insufficient attribute worthy of immunity for absurd conclusions, agressive responses, and downright bad behaviour.
You come here bad mouthing women because of your own personal relationship/marriage issues and take issue when members respond to that?I take no "issue" with an opposing view if it is well-meaning and supported by either fact or a legitimate & motivated opinion. Outright personal insults "nowhere near the point" I do not accept as an enlightening response.
I suggest you apologise to Orchid.I suggest you sod off.
The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.I too have tried to increase my household tasks but meet with the same criticism. So I am mostly not encouraged by her to help with vacuuming etc. I think she does not want me to help in this department, not because of her upbringing but more she sees it as an infringement on the man/woman role and would like me to remain the man in this case.
Now, if you have some insight into the subject of women and how it applies to my original post (and if you can manage to present yourself in a civilized manner) then let's hear what you have to say.
Ps. I don't care in the slightest how long you or she have been a member of this forum or if you are respected or not. You can impress me with an intelligent (or at least an honest) view but insults will not be met with admiration. It seems strange to me that you don't understand that.
The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking.
I too have tried to increase my household tasks but meet with the same criticism. So I am mostly not encouraged by her to help with vacuuming etc. I think she does not want me to help in this department, not because of her upbringing but more she sees it as an infringement on the man/woman role and would like me to remain the man in this case.
So my advice to you: Step up and be the man, do not think you help her by doing things like vacuuming, she will respect you less if you try to under-valuate her work in the household by doing it yourself.That's the odd thing about it. What I think is "stepping up" is doing what I would consider the "menial woman's work" in order to liberate her from the old-school Slavic ways. You know welcome her into the western way of sharing the family chores. Unfortunately, it often backfires and I suppose she thinks of it as unmanly.
Markje, I bet that there are some jobs in your household that are 'woman' jobs and some that are 'man' jobs. Woe betide you if you try to do a woman job or ask her to do a man job.
For example:
Changing a light bulb - man job
Cutting the grass in the garden - man job
Doing laundry - woman job
Cooking - woman job, but with a shashlyk exception! There's no way she's going to stink of smoke and burnt animals.
While I have no interest in this spat .....Then why have you just now contributed to "this spat" rather than contribute something to the subject instead?
... you are doing an impressive job displaying your own arrogancy.You lied in your intro. You said that you are not interested in the spat but here you are fanning the flames of it and actually taking sides in it and joining the spat yourself. It looks to me that you are rather arrogant too. Tsk, tsk. Let's start a club: "The Arrogancy Club" I'll be president and you can be the enforcer.
Logical fallacies are flawed, deceptive, or false arguments that can be proven wrongCould be.
with reasoning.
Hasty generalization is a type of logical fallacy. When one makes a hasty generalization he applies a belief to a larger population than he should based on the information that he has....Hasty generalization? True.
You are projecting your limited anecdotal experience with women to apply to women in general. Your over generalization that women lack appreciation in logic or systematicLimited? over generalization? How did you make those assumption?
thinking is ridiculous.
I can list countless names of women scientists, philosophers and engineers who haveWhat are you, a politically correct social warrior? Let me guess .... you think I am speaking about each and every woman on this earth, right? If I were to say, "Americans are the best basketball players" would you get indignant and give me "a list countless names" of Americans who can't play worth a shit?
obviously used logic and systematic thinking to achieve great things.
I take no "issue" with an opposing view if it is well-meaning and supported by either fact or a legitimate & motivated opinion. Outright personal insults "nowhere near the point" I do not accept as an enlightening response.
Furthermore, I did not "bad mouthing women" but that's not your concern even if I had.
I suggest you sod off.It doesn’t take much for you to show what a disagreeable person you are, does it?
Now, if you have some insight into the subject of women and how it applies to my original post (and if you can manage to present yourself in a civilized manner) then let's hear what you have to say.
Ps. I don't care in the slightest how long you or she have been a member of this forum or if you are respected or not. You can impress me with an intelligent (or at least an honest) view but insults will not be met with admiration. It seems strange to me that you don't understand that.
You started the ‘insults’ ...QuoteI did not.Furthermore, if you start insulting the lady folk here then I think every member should haul you over the coals.Inform"every member" not to insult me out-of-hand and they'll have no fear of retribution.I’ve seen enough of your ‘insights into women’ to know that you’re not the kind of person one can have any kind of discourse with, let alone a civilised one.QuoteI suggest you ignore me from now on if it will prevent your knickers from binding.You may not care how long Orchid has been a member .....Seniority means just as little to me as it does to Orchid. Actually, that isn't true. I respect age per se whereas Orchid freely doles out insults such as "demented", something I'd never do. And by the way, you can chalk that comment up as 'starting the insults’. You know, your first comment in this quote of yours. You can apologize now, there's a good lad.It doesn’t take much for you to show what a disagreeable person you are, does it?QuoteConsidering your weakness of character, the answer is "no - it doesn't take much". I assume you are one of those snowflake feminists I've heard so much about so I can imagine you find most things in your day to be "disagreeable" and make you "uncomfortable". You poor, poor fellow. Ho-hum. :coffeeread:
We’ve seen fellows like you come and go over the years.
Bluster.........
You are projecting your limited anecdotal experience with women to apply to women in general. Your over generalization that women lack appreciation in logic or systematicLimited? over generalization? How did you make those assumption?
thinking is ridiculous.I can list countless names of women scientists, philosophers and engineers who haveWhat are you, a politically correct social warrior? Let me guess .... you think I am speaking about each and every woman on this earth, right? If I were to say, "Americans are the best basketball players" would you get indignant and give me "a list countless names" of Americans who can't play worth a shit?
obviously used logic and systematic thinking to achieve great things.
:dh:
Regarding your limited anecdotal experience: How ever many women that you've encountered it pales in comparison with the women that you haven't encountered.So, according to your logic, my hundred or so encounters with women are irrelevant while your comparatively minuscule experience is sufficient to tell me I’m wrong. You are delusional.
How many have you had disagreements with to the point that you noticed that they didn't appreciate logic? Surely less than a hundred, more than 10? more than 20? Let's say a hundred for argument sake. That's a very limited sample size to make broad generalizations of a population of billions.Who’s talking about billions? Your reading comprehension sucks.
Regarding Americans have the best basketball players I would tend to agree.Then why are you making a case for something that I never said? Who said, “All women” are anything? Are you illiterate?
Naming people who were not good basketball players would only be an argument
to "All Americans are good basketball players"
Your argument was "women don't appreciate logic or systematic thinking" If you said some women, many women or even most women, then I doubt that our Orchid would have taken offense and I certainly wouldn't have felt compelled to point out the fallacies in your reasoning.Again your reading comprehension sucks. Really sucks. You’ve read my response and you are quoting it too but you don’t understand the words because you keep making the same absurd conclusion time after time.
THE BOTTOM LINE: :whistle:
I entered the discussion making my observation of women. But you, Orchid, and that other fellow are bent on confrontation without the slightest mention of the subject and how/why it exists. It boils down to one simple notion – you don’t like my opinion because it makes your own opinion superficial and invalid. You can open your eyes and learn or keep them closed and wallow in your own disinformation. What you do or think doesn’t affect me. What I think certainly does affect you, though. It’s a sure sign of insecurity. Don’t you think so too?
THE BOTTOM LINE: :whistle:
I entered the discussion making my observation of women. But you, Orchid, and that other fellow are bent on confrontation without the slightest mention of the subject and how/why it exists. It boils down to one simple notion – you don’t like my opinion because it makes your own opinion superficial and invalid. You can open your eyes and learn or keep them closed and wallow in your own disinformation. What you do or think doesn’t affect me. What I think certainly does affect you, though. It’s a sure sign of insecurity. Don’t you think so too?
Looks like Wiz has another large-font friend!
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4PxTNfk/Men-bd07be-989662.jpg)
You'd be better off sticking to what you do best
We’ve seen fellows like you come and go over the years.
Bluster.........
You don’t last long.
I trust you won’t outstay your welcome. :party0011:
THE BOTTOM LINE: :whistle:
I entered the discussion making my observation of women. But you, Orchid, and that other fellow are bent on confrontation without the slightest mention of the subject and how/why it exists.
What you do or think doesn’t affect me. What I think certainly does affect you, though. It’s a sure sign of insecurity. Don’t you think so too?
One jokes about it a lot but it seems to be true.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4PxTNfk/Men-bd07be-989662.jpg)
Be careful with advices. If I do what I do best, you are going to be miserable.You’ve failed so far. But show me your best and we’ll see if I’ll be miserable or not. I’m waiting but I am sure that you are only making a false threat with an empty bit of bravado. If I am wrong then let's see what you've got. Still waiting.
Good news is that you got lucky at least once in your life: I have a mercy for you. I am Russian.Being Russian qualifies you for nothing. In fact, it qualifies as a deficit to the discussion at hand.
you are a double loser.Few in “that army” have had as many “multicultural relationships” as I. And as far as “failing my woman” it is abundantly clear that you don’t even know what this failure is about. But go ahead and be specific if you dare.
First, you failed your woman. Second, you got in a pod with the army of men who have reached the highest level of expertise in multicultural male/female relationships.
Taking in consideration your arrogance, you are going to be heavily beaten, savory eaten, and ornately overwritten.My arrogance (your choice of word) is only felt by those who’ve been put in their place ….. and deserve it.
Your marriage is a poorly designed observational study. Why should we trust such a low level of evidence? I don’t think so.You don’t have to trust anything nor have I asked you to. And your accusation of “low-level” is in your mind alone. Your problem is that you are weak of character in the standard snowflake sense whereby you feel that everything you don’t understand is an insult (even when none has been committed) so you lash out in a pussy-fit of feigned rage.
Not reacting to other people opinion demonstrates a poor emotional intelligence, mental rigidity, and….. insecurity.Now ain’t that a hoot. You still have not addressed my assertion from the beginning but are frantically doing your underachieving best to insult me. You have (from the very beginning of this so-called dialogue) done nothing but whine which proves everything I've said so far.
Are you illiterate?
UdachiIf you've only got one you'd better keep it for yourself. You may need it much more than you think. :THUB:
I entered the discussion making my observation of women. But you, Orchid, and that other fellow are bent on confrontation without the slightest mention of the subject and how/why it exists.
You’re obviously a fellow with some issues since all the confrontation started with you.That's not even possible and the proof .......
Were you dropped on the head as a child or something since it’s that part of your anatomy that seems to be swollen, I.e. bigheaded.... is as clear as day. I'm wondering why it is that you cannot tear yourself away. I mean, anyone with sense and intelligence wouldn't carry on as you do. Oh, right! I inadvertently answered my own question! :chuckle:
"I entered the discussion making my observation of women. But you, Orchid, and that other fellow are bent on confrontation without the slightest mention of the subject and how/why it exists."You’re obviously a fellow with some issues since all the confrontation started with you.That's not even possible and the proof .......Were you dropped on the head as a child or something since it’s that part of your anatomy that seems to be swollen, I.e. bigheaded.... is as clear as day. I'm wondering why it is that you cannot tear yourself away. I mean, anyone with sense and intelligence wouldn't carry on as you do. Oh, right! I inadvertently answered my own question! :chuckle:
One jokes about it a lot but it seems to be true.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4PxTNfk/Men-bd07be-989662.jpg)
You missed the ruse then I see."I entered the discussion making my observation of women. But you, Orchid, and that other fellow are bent on confrontation without the slightest mention of the subject and how/why it exists."You’re obviously a fellow with some issues since all the confrontation started with you.That's not even possible and the proof .......Were you dropped on the head as a child or something since it’s that part of your anatomy that seems to be swollen, I.e. bigheaded.... is as clear as day. I'm wondering why it is that you cannot tear yourself away. I mean, anyone with sense and intelligence wouldn't carry on as you do. Oh, right! I inadvertently answered my own question! :chuckle:
It’s hilarious to see how you ask questions and answer them yourself!! :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Well done. tiphat We have a standard little dialogue over here that we believe sums it up.One jokes about it a lot but it seems to be true.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4PxTNfk/Men-bd07be-989662.jpg)
It does generally reflect experiences from my POV, but I don't necessarily see it as a negative aspect of the women I have interacted with closely. On one hand, all those additional knobs and buttons are part of why I find women interesting and intriguing, OTOH I often wonder if I'm making proper adjustments when learning what they do... All a part of the relationship challenge IMO and helps keep things interesting.
I believe this points to women having different settings and characteristics that cannot be generalized, or simplified.
None of us is qualified to diagnose personality disorders but, since some of us insist on doing it anyway, perhaps someone would guess which disorder is associated with the compulsion to rebut another's post on a line-by-line basis.Is 'conscientiousness' a disorder?
With respect to the topic, it doesn't matter which affliction one's love interest has; if her behavior afflicts her partner to the extent that he wants to jump into a volcano, then he is probably with the wrong woman. .....Maybe, but people often do admire their other half dearly despite (or even because of) their idiosyncrasies. Just look at how much Edith put up with but she loved Archie with all of her heart. If we care for our spouses there probably isn't one of us who doesn't put with something ... even infidelity.
You realize that the Bunkers were fictional characters, right?Of course, but you cannot deny that many similar relationships do exist ..... and they endure. THAT is the point I am making.
Markje, I bet that there are some jobs in your household that are 'woman' jobs and some that are 'man' jobs. Woe betide you if you try to do a woman job or ask her to do a man job.
For example:
Changing a light bulb - man job
Cutting the grass in the garden - man job
Doing laundry - woman job
Cooking - woman job, but with a shashlyk exception! There's no way she's going to stink of smoke and burnt animals.
Perhaps a little misogynistic, Mr Andrewfi !?
I ask as I like gardening and I adore it when a man cooks for me.
Perhaps a little misogynistic, Mr Andrewfi !?
I ask as I like gardening and I adore it when a man cooks for me.
I do not disagree with you from a western European/USAian perspective however, my lived experience tells me that for many women (and by implication men) in what might loosely be called the FSU, there is a slightly different paradigm in play.
In western Europe/USA we tend to have a paradigm of equal and the same. I was surprised to find a different paradigm in play over here - equal but different.
I was surprised to be upbraided quite strongly by a Czech woman married to a Briton some 20 years ago. She was, until she chose to become a full-time mother, one of the very first female stockbrokers working on the Czech stock exchange. So, by default she was a challenger in the field of role equality in the country.
She said to me that under the previous regime there was full equality in most aspects of life and she, like most women, were happy that nobody expected them since the end of Soviet times to be road builders and bricklayers. She introduced me to the phrase equal but different and I confess that it seems entirely reasonable to me.
Since then, while nobody has ever made the point in quite the same way, in practice, that is the standard to which many people choose to live and work. The examples I gave were actually the ones she gave me back then in terms of how she set out the demarcation lines within the household. She saw her role in the family as being the one who made sure that her husband was always in a mental and physical condition to do his best at providing for her family.
There's no reason that she could not change a lightbulb or sit on the lawnmower as it trundled around the garden of their home near Prague, but she was setting the lines so that she was not overly burdened by work raising the kids and managing the home and that he was still a contributor to the home, not just the means by which money arrived every month.
When living with women here, I have usually had to fight to be able to cook a meal, or run the vacuum cleaner about the house, and usually only win those battles because I work from home. :)
My English friend, her husband, told me that it had been a surprise to him - he had been surprised at her choice but did his best to follow her rules. She was entirely happy with her choice. I have seen a similar situation on many, many occasions since that time.
My English friend - he, with her support, did exceptionally well for himself and rose at a very early age to the national head of a well-known multinational firm's business in the country. He ended up doing a similar role when he returned to the UK.
I have no way to know whether he would have done as well without the roles set by his wife and her support for him - but knowing him and how he was before meeting and marrying her, I am pretty sure that at least a part of his success was her support, encouragement and the training she provided him. In career terms, he did the best for himself among all the peers with whom I grew up in the UK and was the only one supported under this equal but different paradigm. Without her, I think he'd have ended up as a mid-packing sales manager in some FMCG company in the UK, not a national director in the same type of business.
Yeah, equal but different, I can live with that. After all, nobody should stop a woman from pursuing a career in road building if that's what she wanted. However, to understand and celebrate our differences is to optimise the attributes that are embodied in each gender.
The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.
Looks that you don't have any better experience about men too!The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.How little you understand women.
I will let Halo defend herself if she so desires. Suffice to say you are both quite wrong in your assumptions.Looks that you don't have any better experience about men too!The problem with women is their lack of appreciation of logic and systematic undertaking. I find that the more you do for her the less satisfied she is with you, or perhaps I should say the less she respects you. My 15-year marriage is in a state of limbo at the moment. I had been increasing my efforts in home duties but suffering proportional criticism for it. As it stands now, I do very little and she’s ceased complaining. I am beginning to suspect that she’s been so deeply indoctrinated by her Soviet-era upbringing that she only feels fulfilled if her spouse is drunk, aggressive, unromantic, and insensitive.How little you understand women.
All fingers in your hand don't have the same length :laugh:
Usual comments from all married women to westerners and born on the USSR years. I have heard them many times before from several Slavic women I met.
Before settling down to marry, my current wife visited me for 1st time on December 2006, in “My Home” to get to know each other” and very soon she told me “that all decisions have to be common decisions, to which I agreed. Of course I was in full knowledge that soon she will start criticizing all my decisions and actions, like cooking, washing the plates etc. Normal sport from all women who like to have the upper hand into their relationships, for various reasons, something that I had already experienced with my previous relationships before meeting her.
Well my wife of the past 14 years, she knows very well my standard answer, when she feels the need to start criticizing me, for whatever I do… It is simple:
“If you think you married a useless husband then the answer is simple! Do it yourself,
don't criticise me and close your mouth or Open the door and go home!”
I don't see the reason arguing with her, loosing my temper, just to satisfy her need of showing off her bad habits acquired during her USSR upbringing years.Please watch this video with Putin and Merkel……
Putin tells Merkel a joke about the wedding night!
I will let Halo defend herself if she so desires. Suffice to say you are both quite wrong in your assumptions.