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Information & Chat => News & Political Discussion => Topic started by: WestCoast on August 25, 2014, 06:50:21 PM

Title: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on August 25, 2014, 06:50:21 PM
I'm sure you'll agree, in the interests of total transparency the identity of the individual(s) being interviewed and the owners of the media should be revealed as much as possible.   

For example in Manny's example it's obvious that Sergei Lavrov is the Russian foreign minister. He's identified as such in the article. What readers might not realize is that RBTH - Russia Beyond The Headlines - is a Russian government owned and operated media outlet. In Manny's example a Russian government owned and operated media outlet is interviewing a Russian government official.

Even Manny agrees that most if not all government officials, no matter the country, are corrupt and/or incompetent. The same can be said for government owned and operated enterprises. This is why total transparency is necessary.

Without total transparency readers might think they're reading news when in fact all they're reading is government propaganda.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on August 25, 2014, 08:29:30 PM
Links banned at ukraine. Fresh information and maps online (in English).

http://en.voicesevas.ru/

http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker

It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

I would hazard a guess those links aren't banned in Ukraine.  Unlike Russia, Ukraine does not have "government friendly" media sources.  Report what you want when you want.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Rasputin on August 25, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

No, but a non-government owned site can parrot government propaganda and use the same narratives of government propaganda serving as an echo chamber  tiphat
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Net_Lenka on August 25, 2014, 10:55:18 PM
I would hazard a guess those links aren't banned in Ukraine.  Unlike Russia, Ukraine does not have "government friendly" media sources.  Report what you want when you want.
Ukraine just bans Russian TV channels, kills and kidnaps "alien" journalists and used to post a lot of "facts" said by officials not bothering to provide any proves Otherwise that - "report what you want"

Information portal of Donetsk Republic  http://dnrespublika.info
wish to know what's going on in South West of the Ukraina - let see what people who live exactly THERE think
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Millaa on August 25, 2014, 11:02:49 PM
It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

No, but a non-government owned site can parrot government propaganda and use the same narratives of government propaganda serving as an echo chamber  tiphat

Ты можешь повторять эту мантру про пропаганду  до посинения, но факты - вещь упрямая.

Да, убери наконец подпись под своим профайлом, у тебя нет ничего общего с моей Россией.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Rasputin on August 25, 2014, 11:09:54 PM
It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

No, but a non-government owned site can parrot government propaganda and use the same narratives of government propaganda serving as an echo chamber  tiphat

Ты можешь повторять эту мантру про пропаганду  до посинения, но факты - вещь упрямая.

Да, убери наконец подпись под своим профайлом, у тебя нет ничего общего с моей Россией.

Propaganda need not be solely voiced by the state. Quite often, the state can influence what is said. This can be done by threatening (directly or indirectly) news sources, intimidating them, to toe the "party line" and report as the government wants them to report. Thus, even if the agency reporting the news is not directly state-owned, it can still be furthering the aims of the state by broadcasting state propaganda...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on August 25, 2014, 11:24:17 PM
I would hazard a guess those links aren't banned in Ukraine.  Unlike Russia, Ukraine does not have "government friendly" media sources.  Report what you want when you want.
Ukraine just bans Russian TV channels, kills and kidnaps "alien" journalists and used to post a lot of "facts" said by officials not bothering to provide any proves Otherwise that - "report what you want"

Information portal of Donetsk Republic  http://dnrespublika.info
wish to know what's going on in South West of the Ukraina - let see what people who live exactly THERE think

One can watch Russian television in Kiev.  Even now.  One can read Russian newspapers online.  No media in Ukraine is, by necessity, "government friendly", as is the case with Russia, although TV5 is owned by Poroshenko (and was, long before he became president), and I will not deny that different media sources have different sympathies.

The Ukrainian government announced it would stop some propaganda emanating from Russia.  As Russian reports routinely declare ATO will kill all residents of the Donbass, during a period of war, where the enemy uses blatantly false propaganda, I don't find this startling or unacceptable.  Furthermore, nobody needs the garbage appearing on Russian so called "news" such as that ATO crucifies Ukrainian toddlers or that the PM is part of a Satanic cult bent on destroying Orthodoxy.  What is even more galling is that these reports are crafted, and reported, by the progeny of the former Soviet nomenklatura, the very Bolshevik scum that sent priests to gulags, ensured anyone down to a church washerwoman was approved by the KGB, and ensured the Church served the state, not the people.  Now these "defenders of Orthodoxy" are using the church for their own nefarious purposes.  :sick0012: :sick0012: :sick0012:

Here is a report of refugees living among the "fascist Banderivtsi" -

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Millaa on August 25, 2014, 11:37:07 PM
Короче, Ленка, нехай они тут исключительно censor.net хавают. Сказки на ночь - полезная вещь, главное, совесть спит спокойно.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on August 25, 2014, 11:55:06 PM
I do read censor.net, though with a jaundiced eye.  But it is hardly the only source I read, and its reports, even if presented with a pro ATO bent, have proven accurate more often than not.  It has made one false report, and apologized for it when it was discovered.  I even read Russian sites.  It is only by reading broadly will one discern the truth.  I realize that this is a foreign concept for all you brainwashed former commies.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on August 26, 2014, 09:44:50 AM
Even Manny agrees............

Doesnt matter what I agree with or not.

I'd prefer you didn't keep broadcasting what you imagine to be my opinion though. You habitually distort what you read and then repeat it in a form beyond recognition.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on August 26, 2014, 09:53:25 AM
Where did my post go?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on August 26, 2014, 09:54:35 AM
Even Manny agrees............

Doesnt matter what I agree with or not.

I'd prefer you didn't keep broadcasting what you imagine to be my opinion though. You habitually distort what you read and then repeat it in a form beyond recognition.

You present Russian government opinion as fact and use it so often it appears you are being paid by the Russian government to spread their propaganda. All in all I'm by far the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Ste on August 26, 2014, 09:56:00 AM
Where did my post go?

And mine! Seems we have mods from RT....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on August 26, 2014, 10:12:00 AM
They went on the topic here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.0
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on August 27, 2014, 04:39:33 PM
Links banned at ukraine. Fresh information and maps online (in English).

http://en.voicesevas.ru/

http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker

It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

I asked my nephew to try your links.  He could access them, notwithstanding the fact he lives in the fascist capital.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Boris on August 27, 2014, 04:58:31 PM
Where did my post go?

And mine! Seems we have mods from RT....

It seems one man's news is another man's propaganda.... :laugh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Larry on August 27, 2014, 05:00:17 PM
Links banned at ukraine. Fresh information and maps online (in English).

http://en.voicesevas.ru/

http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker

It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

I asked my nephew to try your links.  He could access them, notwithstanding the fact he lives in the fascist capital.

And after all the millions the US government has sent to Kiev.  They've had more than six months!  Lazy Banderivtsi.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Millaa on August 27, 2014, 05:00:34 PM
Links banned at ukraine. Fresh information and maps online (in English).

http://en.voicesevas.ru/

http://cassad.net/?do=warmarker

It can't be considered as government propaganda, people work for free at this resource.

I asked my nephew to try your links.  He could access them, notwithstanding the fact he lives in the fascist capital.

Это дело времени, поклонница censor.net  ;D http://cassad.net/analytics/325-spisok-nehoroshih-resursov.html Пусть еще русско-язычную версию проверит, прорвем информационную блокаду в фашистской столице  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on September 01, 2014, 10:32:17 AM
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.msg377540#msg377540

Also in the Hitchens piece -
Quote
(T)hey think that because the Russian government is bad (beyond dispute)  . . . 
 
Russia meanwhile tells its own lies, not of exaggeration but of what might politely be called understatement.  Russia maintains, quite incredibly, that none of its soldiers are in Ukraine and that it is not arming the rebels.  Of course Russian soldiers are in Ukraine, and of course Russia is helping with supplies and training. To the extent that all its operations are technically deniable, this may well be true. But it is obvious that the GRU is giving powerful aid to the rebels. Quite rightly, the western media recover their proper scepticism when confronted by these claims, and sneer at them.
 

In other news today, the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, has reported that Putin told Barroso he if he wants, he can "take Kiev in two weeks".  Now that's the type of "diplomacy" I am certain Hitchens could get behind.


 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Boris on September 02, 2014, 03:12:18 PM
Ukrainian police shoot unarmed member of the public.


Forward to 3:30.

It looks like initially they were shooting in the air then one guy decides to shoot at the ground in front of them. Forgot about the ricochet effect...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Ste on September 02, 2014, 03:36:32 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

Probably true almost the chivvy elements, just like here when in 1982 when everyone was loving us sinking a ship and drowning 300 men. Gotcha!!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: ashbyclarke on September 02, 2014, 03:45:46 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

Probably true almost the chivvy elements, just like here when in 1982 when everyone was loving us sinking a ship and drowning 300 men. Gotcha!!

Created the sun as we now know it! Aussie paper selling copies, worked. If we hadn't of been at war and Maggie was attempting a peace process then I'm sure the headlines might have read somewhat different, maybe "We can work it out and get it straight, or say good night"? No doubt they'll be famous words one day.

Can't see the 2 worlds leading military powers getting closer with publications like this, patriotic nations fighting it out!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on September 02, 2014, 06:36:16 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

That is the bloody point lost on all the prattling EU & UK Putin pacifists - trying to create Russian "support" is akin to welcoming both a Russian Polar Bear and Kamchatka Brown (Giant fast Grizzly) Bear into your bedroom - sooner or later you are going to have a very very bad day - or night as the case may be.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on September 02, 2014, 06:57:57 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

Isn't Putin doing exactly what you're accusing the Americans of doing? Putin has already said "Russia's partners...should understand it's best not to mess with us...", Putin then said "I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers." (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/russia-putin-conflict-idUKL5N0QZ3HC20140829) That certainly is cowboy diplomacy at its best.

There's little doubt Putin wants Ukraine to stay in Russia's sphere of influence. The only real debate is can he take and keep all of Ukraine or will he have to settle for only that part of Ukraine east of the Dnieper? 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on September 02, 2014, 08:47:08 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

Isn't Putin doing exactly what you're accusing the Americans of doing? Putin has already said "Russia's partners...should understand it's best not to mess with us...", Putin then said "I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers." (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/russia-putin-conflict-idUKL5N0QZ3HC20140829) That certainly is cowboy diplomacy at its best.

There's little doubt Putin wants Ukraine to stay in Russia's sphere of influence. The only real debate is can he take and keep all of Ukraine or will he have to settle for only that part of Ukraine east of the Dnieper?

Perhaps let the East Ukies vote on it like in Crimea...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Larry on September 02, 2014, 08:49:45 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

Isn't Putin doing exactly what you're accusing the Americans of doing? Putin has already said "Russia's partners...should understand it's best not to mess with us...", Putin then said "I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers." (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/russia-putin-conflict-idUKL5N0QZ3HC20140829) That certainly is cowboy diplomacy at its best.

There's little doubt Putin wants Ukraine to stay in Russia's sphere of influence. The only real debate is can he take and keep all of Ukraine or will he have to settle for only that part of Ukraine east of the Dnieper?

Perhaps let the East Ukies vote on it like in Crimea...

Who gets to count the votes?  Bad Vlad's terrorist militia?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: ashbyclarke on September 02, 2014, 09:31:05 PM
Articles like this don't help creating Russian support....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/how_to_solve_the_putin_problem.html

No wonder Putin's popularity is increasing, even within the younger citizens.

Isn't Putin doing exactly what you're accusing the Americans of doing? Putin has already said "Russia's partners...should understand it's best not to mess with us...", Putin then said "I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers." (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/russia-putin-conflict-idUKL5N0QZ3HC20140829) That certainly is cowboy diplomacy at its best.

There's little doubt Putin wants Ukraine to stay in Russia's sphere of influence. The only real debate is can he take and keep all of Ukraine or will he have to settle for only that part of Ukraine east of the Dnieper?

It's a US article isn't it? Knowing how patriotic these people are, articles like that are hardly going to create support to oust a president from inside. Besides I have not accused the US of doing anything, I have said they shouldn't be poking their nose in where its not wanted.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Larry on September 02, 2014, 09:38:07 PM
Besides I have not accused the US of doing anything, I have said they shouldn't be poking their nose in where its not wanted.

Would you say that Russia shouldn't be poking its nose into another country (Ukraine) where it was not wanted? 

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: ashbyclarke on September 02, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
Besides I have not accused the US of doing anything, I have said they shouldn't be poking their nose in where its not wanted.

Would you say that Russia shouldn't be poking its nose into another country (Ukraine) where it was not wanted?

Ukraine, Russia and the EU should of been dealing with this, US involvement wasn't needed.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on September 02, 2014, 10:02:46 PM
Russia should have stayed out of it.  It trained provocateurs who, from the outset, used violence.  It sent FSB and GRU agents to kill Ukrainians.  It sent weapons to kill Ukrainians, and when they didn't back down, Russia sent more weapons and soldiers.  The violence in Ukraine can be traced back to the Kremlin's door step.  Full stop.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Moby on September 04, 2014, 11:50:19 AM
I'm sure you'll agree, in the interests of total transparency the identity of the individual(s) being interviewed and the owners of the media should be revealed as much as possible.   

For example in Manny's example it's obvious that Sergei Lavrov is the Russian foreign minister. He's identified as such in the article. What readers might not realize is that RBTH - Russia Beyond The Headlines - is a Russian government owned and operated media outlet. In Manny's example a Russian government owned and operated media outlet is interviewing a Russian government official.

Even Manny agrees that most if not all government officials, no matter the country, are corrupt and/or incompetent. The same can be said for government owned and operated enterprises. This is why total transparency is necessary.

Without total transparency readers might think they're reading news when in fact all they're reading is government propaganda.

Difference is that in Russia most of the most viewed TV stations are majority owned by / controlled by The Kremlin, companies controlled by the Kremlin - GAZPROM control NTV or crony Oligarch mates of Putin

Censorship is illegal under the RF constitution but the media regulator is doing a grand job of controlling

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Mikeav8r on September 06, 2014, 02:42:49 PM
This wont be popular with some here: http://dearputin.com/

Discussion on this topic (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.30) please.

It would appear Putin and Obama went to the same school of politics and propaganda but Putin actually paid attention in class and is far better at it.  That statement is almost laughable, even to a deaf mute but since he is so good at it, more than 75% of his fellow Soviet followers will buy into it.  You will see what I mean shortly.

Edit:  Your last post just disappeared so my above statement makes little sense...may as well move it where your post moved to or delete it as well....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on September 10, 2014, 08:25:04 AM

Should I counter with Alexander Dugin's facebook page? -

Quote
Ukraine must be cleansed of idiots, which points to one solution: the genocide of cretins – malicious, deaf to the voice of Logos, deadly dangerous and on top of that immeasurably stupid.

Don't assume you, as Russians, are any better than what you profess to despise.  Both sides of this conflict evidence nationalism at its worst.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 10, 2014, 04:18:05 PM
Most Europeans in poll think Ukraine should be offered EU membership.

Quote
A majority of Europeans think Ukraine should be offered membership of the European Union but they are divided about whether it should be admitted to NATO, according to a major public opinion survey published on Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/most-europeans-poll-think-eu-offer-ukraine-membership-183628706.html

If true, I think that shows us most "Europeans" have no clue what the real cost of admitting Ukraine would be.

Admitting the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria cost a lot and put taxes up.

The UK pays £53m ($85M) a DAY to the EU. And we get very little back in return, hence the big movement for a referendum to leave. That money would be better spent on hospitals and schools in the UK, not in Slovakia or Poland.

Why it constantly needs to expand and suck up other countries is a mystery to me.

The EU is - in reality - about six proper countries with twenty odd lame ducks tagged on sapping the wealth. Not to mention a HUGE unelected bureaucracy all on lavish expenses. Its overdue for radical change. The wealth from the prosperous nations should not be spread amongst the poor ones. The poor ones need to simply work harder, have fewer siestas, and quit hoping someone else will solve their problems.

Norway and Switzerland have it right by staying out. We should join them.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on September 10, 2014, 05:11:31 PM

Quote
The “we must stand up to Putin as we did to Hitler” line is pure schoolboy politics. Putin, of whom I saw a fair amount as UK ambassador to Moscow, is not an ideologically driven fanatic, but much closer to Talleyrand – the calculating, pragmatic rebuilder of his country’s status in the world. Certainly the seizure of Crimea was illegal and destabilising. But it was a panicky response to a unique set of circumstances, not the start of an attempt to rebuild the USSR. Of course we are right to reassure those who feel most threatened – as Nato has done with its decision to create a “spearhead force”. We are right to condemn the destruction of MH17, which a report confirmed yesterday was almost certainly shot down. But the idea that sabre-rattling is necessary to convince Russia of Nato’s seriousness is ridiculous. If the Russians didn’t take the Nato security guarantee seriously, why would they be so worried about Ukraine joining?

The second false premise is that economic sanctions can stop Russia. We have deployed sanctions six times against Russia since the Second World War; they have never worked, and won’t this time. There was an air of desperation around claims at last weekend’s Nato summit in Newport that sanctions pushed Russia into the current ceasefire. In reality the US, UK and Ukraine resisted a ceasefire that left Russia in command of the field in East Ukraine. Ukraine only moved to accept the ceasefire because it suddenly started losing the war.

It’s time to back away from the Russian wolf (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11084600/Its-time-to-back-away-from-the-Russian-wolf.html)

----------------------------------

Discussion is here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg378748#msg378748)

Tony Brenton says Ukraine must remain neutral, not by their own choice, they've asked for EU and NATO membership, but because Russia says they must remain neutral. If the west allows this the west is saying Ukraine is a possession of Russia, like Chechnya or Komi or Tuva. Should we also kick Ukraine out of the UN and other international organizations that Russia is currently a member of? Tuva can't be a member of the UN, should Ukraine be a member?

Brenton makes a mistake when he says "We do deals with China, with Iran, with North Korea." What he doesn't say is that NK knows if it crosses the DMZ the US and other western countries will defend South Korea. China knows if it attacks Taiwan the US will defend Taiwan. Iran knows if it attacks Saudi Arabia the US and other western countries will defend SA and attack Iran.

Brenton also says something revealing. He says "Negotiating an acceptable level of autonomy for East Ukraine will be much harder. The Russians are in possession, and will not let go until their concerns are met." He says Russia is in possession of parts of eastern Ukraine. That means they're in Ukraine. They're fighting against the Ukrainian military on Ukrainian soil. They've invaded Ukraine. Broken international agreements. Why should the west trust Russia's word on other peace treaties?

Interesting article. Full of holes. Thought a professional diplomat, knighted for his service to Queen and country, would have done a better job.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on September 10, 2014, 07:50:52 PM
Ukraine, Russia and the EU should of been dealing with this, US involvement wasn't needed.

 I totally agree, so where is the EU with a plan?  What will the UK do besides give big words with little effect. For all the Obama bashing that goes on, he is at least doing something. Christ even Canada has sent some jets. Germany hopefully is rethinking its nuclear energy program in light of Putler's quest to establish the new CCCP.
 Western Europe is doing exactly what they did back in the 1930's, give strong words, sit back and let the situation grow to the breaking point. They have displayed weakness to the 10th power, and Putin knows just as Hitler did, that nothing will happen.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 11, 2014, 01:56:16 AM
Interesting article. Full of holes. Thought a professional diplomat, knighted for his service to Queen and country, would have done a better job.

Maybe you will contact him and tell him that despite his vast personal experience, he knows nothing and you and Google can do better?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on September 12, 2014, 07:54:25 PM
Manny the article by Igor Ivanovich Strelkov is an interesting read and IMHO strengthens the case that Russia is behind the pro-Russian separatists. Strelkov is a Russian citizen, a Russian nationalist and a former high ranking (colonel) member of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB). He has extensive experience in military intelligence and according to many other sources did Russia's dirty work in several areas in Russia and in neighbouring countries.

Strelkov is not a ethnic Russia who just happened to be in Ukraine when the USSR dissolved. Read about his background and it's obvious he's serving Putin and the Kremlin. There can be no other conclusion once you read about his past.

As for some of his other comments. He says "we will not allow for Russia to be ripped asunder and ruined again and again in the manner in which the Russian Empire was destroyed in 1917, and USSR – in 1991". Ukraine is not part of Russia. Neither Putin nor Strelkov get to decide what happens to Ukraine. That right belongs to Ukrainians. 

Not only does Strelkov mention the breakup of the USSR but he also mentions 1917 which would include the old USSR territories plus Finland and other bits of the current EU. If Strelkov is in any manner speaking for the Kremlin then surely this is a warning to the EU and other countries that Russia wants its former empire back.

Novorossiya figures prominently in Strelkov's comments which would mean Putin and his pro-Russian separatists want far more territory than they now control. All in all I'd say Strelkov's comments reflect much of what the west has gleaned Putin's ambitions to be. Putin wants to rebuild Russia not just lands of USSR but the lands of the Russian Empires prior to 1917. Which would include parts of countries now in the EU and NATO. The EU and NATO have every right to be worried.   

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/12/we-will-not-allow-for-russia-to-be-ripped-asunder-and-ruined/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on September 12, 2014, 08:16:06 PM
If Strelkov is in any manner speaking for the Kremlin then surely this is a warning to the EU and other countries that Russia wants its former empire back.

No, it isn't a warning that Russia wants its former empire back. Read his friggin' words again... ten times if that's what it takes for them to sink in.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mendeleyev on September 12, 2014, 10:00:48 PM
Quote
However, dawn of the Russian Spring broke on the horizon; and our country started – not in words, but in reality – to rise from its knees. But as soon as Russia attempted to rethink the results of Gorbachev’s capitulation and to regain the rights and the territories that belonged to it from ancient times – to achieve real independence – the Fifth Column mobilized all the forces available to it. The return of Crimea to Russia shocked it, and the uprising in Novorossiya caused true panic, and forced it to manifest once again its true face.

At least Strelkov lays out his intentions (see bolded), unlike some of his comrades.

He has since declared that he will stay in Moscow to "protect Putin from the Fifth Column." You don't say that unless you've been cleared to say as much. The fifth column is a term that Putin has resurrected from the Red Terror period, and those in the fifth column are any who oppose the government, non-compliant members of the media, foreigners living in Russia, etc.

In reality, he is a murdering piece of slime who in in desperate need of a history lesson. If he wants to return areas to their "ancient times" owners, in his words, then he better start parceling pieces of Russia back to Greece, Japan, China, what is modern-day Turkey, the Tatars, etc.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on September 13, 2014, 08:03:55 AM
A lot of people need a history lesson. Modern history begins circa 1500, at which time the Grand Dutchy of Muscovy was emerging from the Tartar yoke. Strelkov refers to ancient times which would predate even Kievan Rus' and the East Slavs. It's clear that his comments were just rhetoric because no reasonable person would believe that he wants Russia's borders to consist of the confines of an ancient cave somewhere in Eastern Europe. People, especially Westy, tend to seize upon rhetoric when it supports their views, irrespective of its irrelevancy.

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Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mendeleyev on September 13, 2014, 12:47:52 PM
Regardless of any attempts to define what he may have meant, his comments are very much in line with his actions. No one has challenged Russia's right to Novgorod or Moscow.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 13, 2014, 02:23:35 PM
No one has challenged Russia's right to Novgorod or Moscow.

Yet. Another attempted colour revolution will come soon enough. Putin's recent comments shows he sees that too. He isn't dumb. The American foreign policy dream is for Putin to be overthrown, probably killed like Gaddafi and Hussein, and Russia dismantled and looted.

Neither Putin nor Strelkov get to decide what happens to Ukraine. That right belongs to Ukrainians. 

Had America not intervened (or been invited), I would agree with you. But they did. They funded and orchestrated a coup. This is now an America -v- Russia issue. Ukraine is simply the chess board.

America - with EU support - chose the playing field. Ukrainian people are victims of unwanted foreign intervention. And I don't mean Russia.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on September 13, 2014, 02:28:29 PM
Russia's borders, its economy, its politicians, its people were not affected in the least by events in Kiev or elsewhere in Ukraine.  So, your assertion that the US or the EU "started something", which, incidentally, I reject, is deflection.

Odd, was it not, that Kharkov pro Russian activists, were active within days of Yanukovych stepping down from power?  Odder still, is it not, that they openly admitted to having been trained in Russia, by the Russian government, and to being paid $40 to agitate?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: d672 on September 14, 2014, 12:56:11 AM


Yet. Another attempted colour revolution will come soon enough. Putin's recent comments shows he sees that too. He isn't dumb. The American foreign policy dream is for Putin to be overthrown, probably killed like Gaddafi and Hussein, and Russia dismantled and looted.


 Makes perfect sense! America is on the verge of financial collapse and they are going after Russia who has had over 20 years to recover and become a world power again.... instead of doing it in the 90's when Russia was on it's knees and the American economy was booming. Is this what you are trying to tell us?   :chuckle:

 C'mon Manny, America had plenty of opportunity to loot Russia when they were weak, it makes absolutely no sense to go after them now. You poor innocent victim Mr Putin is just doing what he is best at... deflecting people's attention so he can take what he wants from Ukraine. Pity so many people fall for it!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mendeleyev on September 15, 2014, 02:05:38 AM
Quote
People came to power through the use of armed force and by unconstitutional means.

Ah ha, so he is finally telling the truth about what happened to the legitimately elected parliament in Crimea. Good man, I knew he'd have to come clean at some point.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 15, 2014, 10:17:31 AM


Yet. Another attempted colour revolution will come soon enough. Putin's recent comments shows he sees that too. He isn't dumb. The American foreign policy dream is for Putin to be overthrown, probably killed like Gaddafi and Hussein, and Russia dismantled and looted.


 Makes perfect sense! America is on the verge of financial collapse and they are going after Russia who has had over 20 years to recover and become a world power again.... instead of doing it in the 90's when Russia was on it's knees and the American economy was booming. Is this what you are trying to tell us?   :chuckle:

 C'mon Manny, America had plenty of opportunity to loot Russia when they were weak, it makes absolutely no sense to go after them now. You poor innocent victim Mr Putin is just doing what he is best at... deflecting people's attention so he can take what he wants from Ukraine. Pity so many people fall for it!

I think the article I just posted (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.msg379259#msg379259) points out why now.

As for America being on the verge of financial collapse, that doesn't stop war.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Halo on September 15, 2014, 10:34:49 AM
An interesting article on an interesting site I encountered today. It is more of an overview of what is happening in Ukraine and why.

http://www.russiaotherpointsofview.com/2014/09/reality-check-from-russia.html#



Discussion is here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.45).

Load of cr@p, flawed in its pronouncements on history and society.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: d672 on September 16, 2014, 01:40:28 AM


Yet. Another attempted colour revolution will come soon enough. Putin's recent comments shows he sees that too. He isn't dumb. The American foreign policy dream is for Putin to be overthrown, probably killed like Gaddafi and Hussein, and Russia dismantled and looted.


 Makes perfect sense! America is on the verge of financial collapse and they are going after Russia who has had over 20 years to recover and become a world power again.... instead of doing it in the 90's when Russia was on it's knees and the American economy was booming. Is this what you are trying to tell us?   :chuckle:

 C'mon Manny, America had plenty of opportunity to loot Russia when they were weak, it makes absolutely no sense to go after them now. You poor innocent victim Mr Putin is just doing what he is best at... deflecting people's attention so he can take what he wants from Ukraine. Pity so many people fall for it!

I think the article I just posted (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.msg379259#msg379259) points out why now.

As for America being on the verge of financial collapse, that doesn't stop war.

 I assume you are talking about this part of the article?

 "As far as I can tell a very slender but powerful minority in Washington decided years ago that Ukraine would be the prime place to challenge a future "come back" of Russia as one of several leading powers in the world. Archival material points out that the neoconservatives drew up a plan in 1992 that America had to be ready to take down militarily any country that would compete for its worldwide supremacy. It mentioned Russia which they felt would/could reorganize the union of former USSR republics. This minority gained momentum with both Republicans and Democrats in the Congress and the White House."

 She starts that paragraph with "as far as I can tell", and mentions that archival materials "points out" that the neoconservatives drew up a plan. No links to these archives, no naming who this powerful minority was, nothing. Same thing as anyone saying "in my opinion" before stating something... clears them of any legal implications of what they say or write and offers no credibility.

 And I have to agree with Halo above, especially about the part where the author talks about how split the society in Ukraine is between Ukrainian and Russian speakers. I haven't been to western Ukraine so I can't give an opinion on what it is like there, but anywhere I have been (including in Crimea) I have never seen or heard about any friction between the two groups. In fact the first time I heard of any problems is when the pro Russians started these accusations.  :-X

 Have you heard anything about Ukrainians being so divided here on RUA in the past? Because if it was such a big issue I'm sure it would popped up in discussion here sometime in the past few years. I'd be interested in hearing if any RUA members who have actually been to Ukraine have witnessed this problem, I can't recall talking to anyone here who has mentioned this.


 So can you honestly tell me that I should take this article seriously and that it is solid evidence that supports your theory that the US wants to loot and pillage Russia? Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that! Like I said, if that was what the US was really after they would have done it in the 90's when Russia was on its knees, they would make sure Russia could never become a world power again. Putin knows there are enough Ameriphobes in the world that he can come up with these wild accusations and leave enough doubt in people's minds that it gives him time to make the moves he wants before anyone will act.

 Like I said, pity so many people fall for it.       
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: JayH on September 16, 2014, 02:15:47 AM

 And I have to agree with Halo above, especially about the part where the author talks about how split the society in Ukraine is between Ukrainian and Russian speakers. I haven't been to western Ukraine so I can't give an opinion on what it is like there, but anywhere I have been (including in Crimea) I have never seen or heard about any friction between the two groups. In fact the first time I heard of any problems is when the pro Russians started these accusations.  :-X

 Have you heard anything about Ukrainians being so divided here on RUA in the past? Because if it was such a big issue I'm sure it would popped up in discussion here sometime in the past few years. I'd be interested in hearing if any RUA members who have actually been to Ukraine have witnessed this problem, I can't recall talking to anyone here who has mentioned this.


 So can you honestly tell me that I should take this article seriously and that it is solid evidence that supports your theory that the US wants to loot and pillage Russia? Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that! Like I said, if that was what the US was really after they would have done it in the 90's when Russia was on its knees, they would make sure Russia could never become a world power again. Putin knows there are enough Ameriphobes in the world that he can come up with these wild accusations and leave enough doubt in people's minds that it gives him time to make the moves he wants before anyone will act.

 Like I said, pity so many people fall for it.     

D--  good points. Others who do HAVE Ukrainian association and experiences have all said much the same thing- and it has always been my observation.
Not so long ago(late last year and even into this year_) it was unthinkable that Ukrainians would go to war with russians and many/many on the forums said that.A lot of them  were not tuned into the huge shift in opinions this year in you Ukraine -- and that includes the kremlin who fooled themselves into believing their own propaganda which has now been shown to be totally ridiculous.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on September 16, 2014, 05:56:41 PM
I am starting to wonder about the Russian ruling clique and their grasp upon reality:

http://news.yahoo.com/russias-lavrov-lauds-africa-pillar-world-order-190135282.html

Praising Robert Mogabe as a legend and Pillar in Africa - a white hating and killing fascist who starves his own people and destroyed his own economy WTF?

http://theweek.com/article/index/268137/russia-is-stealthily-threatening-america-with-nuclear-war

Really with Ancient Turbo Prop Jobs that satellites can now track as soon as they take off - who writes this Crap about Russia threatening Nuclear War - sounds like the Neocons in full swing now that they have lost Iraq to I.S. and Afghanistan to the Taliban.

Actually an interesting article on New FSU "de-facto" countries:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/09/16/ukraines-breakaway-region-is-becoming-a-de-facto-country/

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on September 21, 2014, 09:11:50 AM
http://247wallst.com/energy-business/2014/09/21/russian-sanctions-force-exxon-to-pull-out-of-arctic-project/

Ooops there goes a nice chunk of the profits that would help fund both USA and UK pension fund beneficiaries not to mention the UK NHS - yes BP was also a major partner in this agreement - looks like China will be stepping in to the breach...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on September 21, 2014, 09:17:07 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/khodorkovsky-launches-movement-challenge-putin-193938861.html

Putin foe Khodorkovsky 'willing to lead Russia'

Moscow (AFP) - Ex-tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin, openly stated his political ambitions on Saturday by announcing he would be ready, if called upon, to lead Russia in times of crisis.

Russia needs government investment to avoid recession, says former finance minister Reuters
By publicly voicing his readiness to take on the country's top job, the man who was once Russia's richest appears to have broken a promise to steer clear of politics which he made after being pardoned by President Vladimir Putin in December.

"I would not be interested in the idea of becoming president of Russia at a time when the country would be developing normally," he was quoted as saying by Le Monde newspaper.

"But if it appeared necessary to overcome the crisis and to carry out constitutional reform, the essence of which would be to redistribute presidential powers in favour of the judiciary, parliament and civil society, then I would be ready to take on this part of the task."

The comments were made as Khodorkovsky, 51, launched an online movement dubbed Open Russia to unite pro-European Russians in a bid to challenge Putin's grip on power.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 21, 2014, 11:52:33 AM
He didn't learn anything in prison did he?

Quote
Ex-tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin, openly stated his political ambitions on Saturday by announcing he would be ready, if called upon, to lead Russia in times of crisis.

Translation: "If there is to be an American funded colour revolution in Russia, can I be Obama's puppet president?"
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on September 21, 2014, 12:13:02 PM
He didn't learn anything in prison did he?

Quote
Ex-tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin, openly stated his political ambitions on Saturday by announcing he would be ready, if called upon, to lead Russia in times of crisis.

Translation: "If there is to be an American funded colour revolution in Russia, can I be Obama's puppet president?"

I agree Khodorkovsky didn't learn anything in jail. You'd think after a decade in jail on Putin's orders Mikhail Khodorkovsky would've learned Putin is a vengeful dictator and would probably not hesitate to jail him again if he pisses off Putin.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 21, 2014, 12:15:41 PM
He didn't learn anything in prison did he?

Quote
Ex-tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade in jail after challenging the Kremlin, openly stated his political ambitions on Saturday by announcing he would be ready, if called upon, to lead Russia in times of crisis.

Translation: "If there is to be an American funded colour revolution in Russia, can I be Obama's puppet president?"

Wasn't one of the explicit conditions of his release that he never return to politics ?
 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 21, 2014, 02:49:28 PM
My guess is that there's more to this than meets the eye. Moscow is on a mission to identify and root out the fifth column, that group that, on the whole tends to support rapprochement with the US neoconservative goals and thus a Russia that is economically subservient to the US.

Having a 'lightning conductor' who becomes a point to which energy flows and thus picks up support may be a useful strategy. If I am wrong then something bad will happen to a man who will have proven himself to be unreliable, dishonest and untrustworthy and thus no longer eligible for the parole that he was given.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: bagalia on September 21, 2014, 04:24:40 PM
IMHO Khodorkovsky is not such a bad guy though I am not sure where he fits into the spectrum. I think he learned a couple things in prison. One was the idea of revenge for the taking of a decade of his life away. The other was to leave the country before doing what he is doing now. Don't think America has anything to do with his thinking at all. Could well be that he will just fade away.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Danchik on September 22, 2014, 02:43:14 PM
The West has made somewhat of a hero out of Khodorkovsky when in reality the guy was nothing more than a common thief; albeit a smart, connected one.

I think you'll find that people/governments in the West have a far greater respect for him than most in Russia.

FYI, all the oligarchs in Russia knew the rules when they became oligarchs during privitazation. They also knew that not playing by the rules afterwards would have consequences. As smart as Khodorkovsky was/is, his ego got in the way. And while some of his intentions were legit and honest after he "earned" his money, his rise to the financial mountaintop was anything but.

Getting in bed (or trying to) with the West was his downfall.

He has no future in Russia and Russians sure and the hell don't trust him, despite the protests from his relatively few followers.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on September 22, 2014, 03:12:52 PM
The West has made somewhat of a hero out of Khodorkovsky when in reality the guy was nothing more than a common thief; albeit a smart, connected one.

I think you'll find that people/governments in the West have a far greater respect for him than most in Russia.

FYI, all the oligarchs in Russia knew the rules when they became oligarchs during privitazation. They also knew that not playing by the rules afterwards would have consequences. As smart as Khodorkovsky was/is, his ego got in the way. And while some of his intentions were legit and honest after he "earned" his money, his rise to the fiscal mountaintop was anything but.

Getting in bed (or trying to) with the West was his downfall.

He has no future in Russia and Russians sure and the hell don't trust him, despite the protests from his relatively few followers.

Putin is a master strategist and made an example out of Khodorkovsky and dismantled Yukos, Nationalized its assets for pennies on the rouble to scare all hell out of all the other Russian Jewish Oligarchs - deal was you can keep your wealth if 1. you Take Governorship of a remote provice and make it as successful as your other businesses and 2. You stay the bloody hell out of politics and be loyal to United Russia -  and then Magnitsky to teach the USA Hermitage Corporate Raiding Green Mailer and Vulture Capitalist Bill Browder a serious lesson let his lawyer die in prison form neglect http://lawandorderinrussia.org/  - and then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko  there is always polonium... 

Point is MK is still alive and well - and reports are he was allowed to retain several hundred million$ in wealth likely already in Switzerland - so a pardon by Putin was to show the world and other Oligarchs  that if you play ball, do what you are told and help build up (remote provinces as appointed governor) then you can keep and improve your wealth - if not the FSB and Military intelligence of Russia has many ways of dealing with you...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 23, 2014, 03:04:46 AM
Cufflinks, while you got a little more factually correct than most others in your part of the world, and for that a genuine 'huzzah' the central plank of your post is set upon an incorrect understanding of 'stuff that happened'.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky was not given any favour by Putin, there was no lesson taught by his release. Was released from his sentence and paroled as a part of a general amnesty, he was simply a part of the amnesty group that included members of the action protest group Pussy Riot and a load of environmental protesters popularly associated with Greenpeace.

The amnesty was not given for popularity or to polish the president's reputation because, as you'd know from reading Russian media, none of the people released has any significant degree of standing or approval in Russia.

There WAS a deal between oligarchs and the government and it was negotiated with individuals, face to face many years ago and, yes, Khodorkovsky broke that agreement but he was tried for tax evasion, found guilty - because he was guilty and sentenced for his crimes to a shorter term than he might have received for similar crimes elsewhere. Even his appeal to the ECHR failed because the evidence supported the conviction.

However, he did appeal for a remission and he did make certain undertakings that he is now breaking: http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/2013_12_22/Khodorkovsky-pledges-to-stay-out-of-politics-8257/
If these breaches break any form of parole then he may find himself in hot water again with no sympathy from Russians or the government.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on October 21, 2014, 01:51:27 PM
Ukrainian army accused of using cluster bombs on civillian areas  :'(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29702522

It is good that this is finally getting out into the wider world. Hopefully soon awareness of the use of phosphorous munitions and the use of ballistic missiles against civilian targets.

It is certainly true that as in any war things happen that are wrong, evil and gross. Atrocities committed by all conflicting parties, but to be targeting civilians, their housing and infrastructure as a consistent policy is a whole different level of malice.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on October 21, 2014, 02:49:33 PM
A Downing St Petition:

Quote
No to Nato military exercises in Ukraine

Responsible department: Ministry of Defence

We note with great concern that UK and US troops are scheduled to participate in joint military exercises in Ukraine in July as part of NATO’s Rapid Trident manoeuvres. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Its participation in military exercises by a nuclear-armed alliance with a first-strike policy can only further destabilise the country.

We call on the British government to urge the US and other NATO governments to cancel the Rapid Trident exercise, and to give a plain and public undertaking that Britain will not participate.

Initial signatories:
Lindsey German, convenor of Stop the War Coalition
Kate Hudson, general secretary of CND
Caroline Lucas MP
Jeremy Corbyn MP
John Rees, Stop the War Coalition
Baroness Jenny Tonge
Ken Loach, film and TV director
Mark Rylance, actor
Miriam Margolyes OBE actor
Michael Rosen, author and broadcaster
Salma Yaqoob, former leader of the Respect Party
Andrew Murray, chief of staff for Unite union

Anyone that wants to sign it can do so here: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64756

12 signatures? They need a better PR team. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on October 21, 2014, 03:29:38 PM
Ukrainian army accused of using cluster bombs on civillian areas  :'(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29702522

It is good that this is finally getting out into the wider world. Hopefully soon awareness of the use of phosphorous munitions and the use of ballistic missiles against civilian targets.

It is certainly true that as in any war things happen that are wrong, evil and gross. Atrocities committed by all conflicting parties, but to be targeting civilians, their housing and infrastructure as a consistent policy is a whole different level of malice.
I agree with what you say here.
Would you also agree, no waring side, should use civilian areas as a tool to hide behind and shoot
missiles at the enemy?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on October 21, 2014, 04:36:47 PM
Ukrainian army accused of using cluster bombs on civillian areas  :'(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29702522

 They're not banned by Ukraine. if that map is accurate, it would appear the Russians are just about to implode. BellZeeBoobs once wrote that Russian culture puts the value of life on a low scale. So Ukraine and Russia fight as they did in decades ago to get the job done. In the process some will get killed, its unfortunate, but that is how it is.

 


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on October 21, 2014, 11:56:27 PM
A Downing St Petition:

Quote
No to Nato military exercises in Ukraine

Responsible department: Ministry of Defence

We note with great concern that UK and US troops are scheduled to participate in joint military exercises in Ukraine in July as part of NATO’s Rapid Trident manoeuvres. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Its participation in military exercises by a nuclear-armed alliance with a first-strike policy can only further destabilise the country.

We call on the British government to urge the US and other NATO governments to cancel the Rapid Trident exercise, and to give a plain and public undertaking that Britain will not participate.

Initial signatories:
Lindsey German, convenor of Stop the War Coalition
Kate Hudson, general secretary of CND
Caroline Lucas MP
Jeremy Corbyn MP
John Rees, Stop the War Coalition
Baroness Jenny Tonge
Ken Loach, film and TV director
Mark Rylance, actor
Miriam Margolyes OBE actor
Michael Rosen, author and broadcaster
Salma Yaqoob, former leader of the Respect Party
Andrew Murray, chief of staff for Unite union

Anyone that wants to sign it can do so here: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64756

12 signatures? They need a better PR team.

I see 5579. Not sure where you are looking.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on October 28, 2014, 04:40:05 AM
Slumba, the article you linked to was interesting. The mix of, possibly mandatory, anti-Russian misinformation and patronisation along with decently observed vignettes was an engaging read. I think I detect the heavy(ish) hand of the sub-editor on the piece though.

Apart from the inserted political stuff, the lady referred to at the top of the story does not live in a wooden hut. She lives in a wooden house, a house typical of the region, well insulated, long lived and made with local materials for local conditions.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on October 28, 2014, 10:06:31 AM
Manny I am curious, they are bringing aid? what are they taking back to Russia, seems to be a normal routine,
bring 3/4 empty trucks, take them back full.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on October 28, 2014, 10:09:06 AM
Manny I am curious, they are bringing aid? what are they taking back to Russia, seems to be a normal routine,
bring 3/4 empty trucks, take them back full.

Any good transport company doesn't like an empty return load.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on October 28, 2014, 10:17:12 AM
NS1: Are they going back with loads?

I kinda doubt it - are you sure that you are not just passing on somebody else's fantasies again? I kinda think you are. ;)  :'(
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mhr7 on October 28, 2014, 10:29:07 AM
Like you would know. (:)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on October 28, 2014, 10:43:15 AM
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that there was an upsurge in fighting in the days after the arrival of the previous convoys, and that we won't see the same again this time (particularly around Donetsk airport).
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on October 28, 2014, 12:58:20 PM
NS1: Are they going back with loads?

I kinda doubt it - are you sure that you are not just passing on somebody else's fantasies again? I kinda think you are. ;)  :'(

They have in the past, who knows what or how much. But first time trucks were fully loaded on return.
Guess the left lane could handle the weight, as you were quite sure, it could not be handled on way into Ukraine.
Thus your explaining of 1/4 loads of aid.

I doubt you have a clue, either way.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on October 30, 2014, 04:47:13 PM
"The People's Court of Novorossiya" sentences a man to death.


http://tvrain.ru/articles/v_seti_pojavilos_video_pervogo_narodnogo_suda_novorossii-377382/

That is a very worrying direction for Novorossiya to take. I am curious to know what the mans "crime" was as that didn't seem to be mentioned.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on October 30, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
The full version of the video is "coming soon", apparently.

http://vk.com/id265927036?w=wall265927036_10488
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on October 30, 2014, 05:01:51 PM
Wonder if the new Russian aid convoy will be as transparent as the others? You'd think the reporters working for RT, a Russian state media company, would have unlimited access to video and photograph the trucks and their cargo both entering and leaving Ukraine. Why wouldn't RT get to embed reporters with the convoy? Perhaps do a Twitter campaign with lots of photos and video? Not just a few photos of trucks and most empty cargo.

Will the Russian government cooperate with the International Red Cross on delivering aid? No, Russia didn't in the past why would they now?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on October 30, 2014, 05:16:39 PM
The full version of the video is "coming soon", apparently.

http://vk.com/id265927036?w=wall265927036_10488

If the comments translate clearly, he raped and murdered a girl. Later comments refer to a 12 year old girl.

One person saw the PR disaster:

Quote
So imagine the headlines the Western media, Russia supports the executioners.

AKMike will be gleefully power posting links to these headlines by weekend.  (:)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on October 30, 2014, 05:33:28 PM
Hardly! Any rapist needs to be shot.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on November 02, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
Quote
In reality, Germany is not a hugely enthusiastic partner because a large section of Berlin’s political class is extremely skeptical of US power. Significant numbers of the German intelligentsia feel that Moscow is their natural ally – not Washington.

Quote
Putin is often misunderstood in the West. His public statements, aimed more at a domestic audience than an international one, come across as aggressive, almost chauvinistic. But observers would do well to remember that he is a judo master whose moves are calculated to confuse and wrong-foot an opponent. Reading between the lines, the Russian president is seeking engagement - not isolation.

The Russian president envisages his country as part of a new international alternative, joining with the other BRIC nations to restrain US aggression wherever possible. Putin sees this as the path to stability. Adenauer and Macmillan would have understood this perfectly but modern European and North American leaders do not get it. Drunk on the dominance they have enjoyed over the past 20 years, the penny has yet to drop that the global order is rapidly changing.

How the US reacts to the new reality will be vital. In an almost cartoon-like way, Washington discourse is now focused on the NSA, spooks, shadow governments, a lost and pathetic fourth estate, squandered militaristic might, and rampant, terrifying nationalism. This juvenility requires a bad guy. In a decade, it has moved from Bin Laden, Saddam, and 'Freedom Fries' to Russophobia. If the American elite maintain the same behavior, the transition to a multi-polar world might not be peaceful. That's the fear, and that fear is real.

Article here: http://rt.com/op-edge/201563-time-new-world-order/
,
Out of curiosity, I looked up worlds best economies, looked at 10 different articles, everyone was different.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 06, 2014, 09:15:26 PM
I wonder how this electron is going to effect the electric power in Lugansk?

Electrical power is all about electrons, after all.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 12, 2014, 04:43:44 PM
The time of reckoning draws closer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30025138

Google 'Voentorg' to understand what this probably is. It seems that Russia has chosen to allow a more overt form of the private supply mechanism than hitherto in an effort to scare the Ukrainians into not launching the attack they were quite clearly preparing for; if so the strategy seems to have worked.

As the US State Department have already pointed out there is NO invasion of Russian military into Ukraine - at least not one that their surveillance could detect and, as we already know, they have at least one keyhole satellite on frequent deployment over the region.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on November 13, 2014, 12:46:40 PM
So , seeing the map in Andrews link it appears kramatorsk is once again inside the territory of the rebels. Slovjansk will probably be the next target.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 13, 2014, 06:00:04 PM
So , seeing the map in Andrews link it appears kramatorsk is once again inside the territory of the rebels. Slovjansk will probably be the next target.

Markje, the maps that the BBC use are provided by the Ukrainian Ministry of Propaganda or some similar name. Usually they are out of date and can not be relied upon. It is one reason why people could not get their heads around what happened back in August. These maps, used not only by the BBC, had been showing a picture completely at odds with reality and when reality bit, as it is wont to do, the apparently very sudden changes seemed incomprehensible except by dint of outside agency. Those living in the area know that there was no outside agency but cognitive dissonance is a powerful force.

People who had been following decent secondary sources were not so surprised, they had seen the ebb and then concerted flow that was the culmination of a lot of effort, blood and death, almost all unreported.

For crowd-sourced, accurate, real-time info check out this site: http://militarymaps.info/ but be careful, you might fall down a rabbit hole of time-suck. Set a timer and stick to it!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 13, 2014, 06:48:20 PM
This is in Ukrainian so I hope this translator works for everyone. Anyway Ukraine is going to attempt to stop pension tourist. In order to collect a pension from the Ukraine you must live in a Ukrainian controlled area of the Ukraine. I believe this is going to effect a lot of people as many of the people that live in rebel held area are on pensions.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Ffakty.ua%2F190839-kabmin-nameren-iskorenit-pensionnyj-turizm-iz-zony-ato
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 13, 2014, 06:57:28 PM
They'll be even more unhappy when UA shuts off the gas due to non payment. Hey' fair is fair just ask 'Mother Russia'.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 13, 2014, 09:52:17 PM
English version. LNR ask Kiev to restore benefits for elderly. Also Residents in Rebel held area are no longer consider citizens of the Ukraine. This is a big deal as most of the none millitary people in Rebel controled areas are elderly and need pensions. Everybody else left. The voted with their feet.

The trouble with rebel held elections is no opposition is aloud to have a place in the debate. How many voters would voted differently if they knew they were going to lose their pensions. They thought they were just voting for free food.

http://lifeinua.info/lnr-asks-Kiev-pay-social-benefits-recognizes-donbas-residents-citizens-ukraine/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 13, 2014, 10:51:04 PM
I'm sure that the terrorist will take care of their new wards that they have fought and died for. :thumbsup:

 If not leave Ukraine and Ukraine will resume payments to UA citizens. LNR and DNR isn't USA remember!  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on November 14, 2014, 12:30:12 AM
English version. LNR ask Kiev to restore benefits for elderly. Also Residents in Rebel held area are no longer consider citizens of the Ukraine. This is a big deal as most of the none millitary people in Rebel controled areas are elderly and need pensions. Everybody else left. The voted with their feet.

The trouble with rebel held elections is no opposition is aloud to have a place in the debate. How many voters would voted differently if they knew they were going to lose their pensions. They thought they were just voting for free food.

http://lifeinua.info/lnr-asks-Kiev-pay-social-benefits-recognizes-donbas-residents-citizens-ukraine/

So what they are basicly saying is they are giving up on that part of Ukraine. No more citizens and government benefits / bureaucracy in that part of Ukraine.

Great. Hopefully the murdering will stop now.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 14, 2014, 12:44:39 AM

So what they are basicly saying is they are giving up on that part of Ukraine. No more citizens and government benefits / bureaucracy in that part of Ukraine.

Great. Hopefully the murdering will stop now.

I'd guess that they're saying to the pensioners that you screwed up when you let Russian terrorists in.
Fix it if you want a pension.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sparky114 on November 14, 2014, 02:03:50 AM
You see what i like about this whole episode is that these people are in their own region fighting for their own town and lands and dying for it.

Where as the majority of the Ukrainian Army are fighting in another region of their own country,  Against the majority of Ukrainian passport holding ethnic Ukrainians born and bred there fighting for their own land.

So with the announcement of no pension money for these pensioners that's not very Ukrainian for them is it, the very people that have worked all of their lives to support the Ukrainian country.

Maybe i have missed something here were they on the streets fighting too a Babushka army?

I think not many of them have been forced to live in basements / shelters  for months without proper amenities

And all this whilst Governments fight their battles and ideals.

I ask those members here How are your relatives doing whilst all this mess is going on, are they homeless or living out their lives with little shelter from a part destroyed house without electricity and gas and drainage

Stand back and think for a while about how involved your families are in this mess does it really cost them in the pocket are they unable to carry out their normal life.

This is the Human disaster that is happening in their own country
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 14, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
This human disaster is caused by an invasion of Ukraine by Russia. Things weren't great but at least they were getting better after Yanku ran away with the cash from the country.


  The point is that they figured that they'd get a free ride and now when the terrorists can't deliver the promises they made of bigger pensions.. Well now they want back.

 Let the new illegal government support them like they promised. If not the new terrorist government can leave and return to Russia. Ukraine will resume the payments I'm sure.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 14, 2014, 01:08:14 PM
Quote
http://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824

Those are pretty darn high-resolution pictures in this webpage... Some people will deny this proof as propaganda of course.

The interesting part is that they claim it is coming from a foreign satellite (USA? Europe??? else?)

Markje, the pic is not 'proof' of anything. It is evidence of something. We don't know what it is evidence of though.

It is not propaganda either. It may well be disinformation, but that is something else. Disinfo can be a tool of propaganda but it ain't propaganda all by itself.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 14, 2014, 04:11:07 PM
Sorry, something I forgot to mention.

There's obviously a reason for this stuff turning up right now (G20, oil price manipulation, currency speculation are all possible motivators). The screws are being turned on the US here.

There will be stuff happening behind the scenes right now about which we know nothing - we may never know just what happens.

This is, as I noted, not propaganda, it may be disinformation but is probably something akin to blackmail.

The thing is that the image of the radar screen is consistent with the show and tell run by the Russians just after the incident. The image of the two planes appears to show the Donetsk region with the airport clearly visible and nobody is jumping up and down showing that pixels have been manipulated around the  objects in the air.

I remember that the Russians gave the US a chance to come clean or to throw the Ukrainians under the bus. That opportunity was not taken and, of course it may be that the plane, if real, is not actually a Ukrainian piloted one, although given their fabrications before and after the incident make it clear that they were knowing participants.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 14, 2014, 05:31:58 PM
More evidents of Russians enter ukraine. 

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebels-hinder-border-monitors-armed-columns-appear-152828602.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 14, 2014, 06:14:21 PM
The screws are being turned on the US here.

They had a satellite there at the time. They know what happened but chose not to share. Why is that?  :innocent:

Russia also knows what happened. They gave the US months to come clean on what they knew.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 14, 2014, 07:34:44 PM
The screws are being turned on the US here.

They had a satellite there at the time. They know what happened but chose not to share. Why is that?  :innocent:

Since the MH17 downing happened so close to the Russia-Ukraine border I'll bet the Russians had at least one satellite covering the area, where are the Russian photos of the event? Also being that close to the border means the Russians likely also had radar coverage of the actual event. Why hasn't Russia given the international media the raw satellite images and radar coverage of the event?


Russia also knows what happened. They gave the US months to come clean on what they knew.

The downing of MH17 happened on July 17, 2014. That's 5 months ago. If the Russians know what happened when are they going to share the info with the world? Not photos that no one believes are real, but the raw images and data that can be checked by international experts. None of the evidence presented so far by the Russians included the raw evidence that could be examined by international experts. The Russian evidence so far is far from convincing.

How much time are the Russians going to give the Americans to come clean? A year? 2 years? If the Americans are so worried about the Russians embarrassing them on the international stage regarding MH17 why have the Americans pushed for sanctions against Russia with such force. Why have the Americans pressured other countries, as you've repeated many times, to follow the US on sanctions?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Millaa on November 14, 2014, 07:38:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com//v/DVIDR9JSPFs

"president" tells himself with whom he is fighting. It's not Russia, it's Donbass people. Fascist.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 14, 2014, 09:21:09 PM
... why have the Americans pushed for sanctions against Russia with such force. Why have the Americans pressured other countries, as you've repeated many times, to follow the US on sanctions?

Were you living in a cave during the run up to the Iraq War?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on November 14, 2014, 09:48:47 PM
Interesting links:

The Russians are big on ancient wisdom and ancient wisdom states that the adversary who acts in an aggressive manner with aggressive maneuvers is basically bluffing and wants peace whereas an adversary who professes peaceful intentions is secretly preparing for war - of course this wisdom was pre nuclear era. 

Backing out of a major Nuclear Weapons treaty in the Nuclear Era is a bit more than sabre rattling as it is a solid bet that all parties will escalate and upgrade their arsenals to prepare for all contingencies - therefore a new arms race...  of course a Nuclear arms race is a Multi Trillion $ plus investment over decades ... to do this as a slap in the face of major members of the G20 with serious concerns with oil dropping to a forecast $50 per barrel only further isolates Russia - all of Russia's agreements with China are as a vendor and vendors get replaced where as the EU, UK and USA are customers and customers are not so easily replaced.

My concern is that Russia is behaving erratically and desperate desperados do desperate things.   Curious how much longer Chairman Putin can maintain 80% favorability ratings as the free global markets swing against their favor for the first time in a long time.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-russia-preparing-catastrophic-093144404.html

Putin Tells the G20 to Eff Off...

http://www.inquisitr.com/1609233/russian-warships-poised-outside-g20-summit-in-australia-russia-backs-out-of-nuclear-security-deal/

Russia plans to stop cooperating with the U.S. in the effort to keep nuclear bombs out of the hands of terrorists, criminals, and rogue states, according to a report in the New York Times on Thursday. The ominous announcement came at the start of the G20 summit in Brisbane Australia, where Russian President Vladimir Putin engaged in a brazen display of military muscle-flexing.

The joint U.S.-Russia security agreement began in 1991 and was designed to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorist groups such as ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other dangerous and unpredictable groups.

Putin arrived at the G20 conference Friday morning with four Russian warships stationed just off the northeastern coast of Australia. The summit’s host, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, is reportedly furious with Putin for the swaggering show of force, after Abbott had threatened to “shirtfront” Putin — that is, forcefully face him down — over the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 shootdown disaster in July.

The Russian warships now positioned off the Australian coast are seen by some observers as Putin’s own “shirtfront” of Abbott, humiliating the Australian leader.

Australia sent three ships of its own to confront the Russian ships — causing a tense naval standoff at the same time leaders of the world’s 20 top economic powers are meeting in what are supposed to be peaceful negotiations.

Now the head of Russia’s nuclear operations, Sergey Kirienko, has told U.S. officials that Russia will no longer let the U.S. have a hand in insuring that Russia’s nukes won’t fall into the wrong hands.

The nuclear cooperation between Russia and the U.S. started right after the fall of the Soviet Union two decades ago, amid fears that in Russia’s political chaos, nuclear material could easily be lost or stolen by criminals and terrorists.

In addition to pulling out of the security agreement, Russia has a “nuclear surprise” in store for NATO and the United States, warned the Russian newspaper Pravda in an article detailing the Russian nuclear arsenal this week.

The west will be “surprised” by the strength of Russia’s nuclear readiness, Pravda says — because the Russian nuclear forces are now more powerful than anything the United States possesses, the article claims.

“It just so happens that today, Russia’s strategic nuclear forces (SNF) are even more advanced in comparison with those of the US, as they ensure parity on warheads with a significantly smaller number of carriers of strategic nuclear weapons,” Pravda said. “This gap between Russia and the United States may only grow in the future, given the fact that Russian defense officials promised to rearm Russia’s SNF with new generation missiles.”


This is a big deal and the Obamunists have been caught again asleep at the wheel with their pants down...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 14, 2014, 09:51:19 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/14/putin-is-lying-on-ukraine-and-the-west-can-t-stop-him.html


The author of this article is no stranger to lying:

Quote from: Daily Beast
To try to counter the Russian military build-up, Kiev has redeployed more forces eastward.


The problem with the above statement is that Ukraine's redeployment preceded the alleged movement of Russian troops into the Donbas region.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on November 14, 2014, 09:55:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com//v/DVIDR9JSPFs

"president" tells himself with whom he is fighting. It's not Russia, it's Donbass people. Fascist.

Not what he told me, but maybe I lost something in translation?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Millaa on November 14, 2014, 10:55:16 PM
Not what he told me, but maybe I lost something in translation?

"У нас работа будет - у них нет. У нас пенсии будут - у них нет. У нас поддержка людей - детей и пенсионеров - будет, у них нет. У нас дети пойдут в школы и детские сады, а у них они будут сидеть по подвалам. Потому что они ничего не умеют делать! Вот так, именно так мы выиграем эту войну".
Вообще-то это называется геноцидом.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on November 14, 2014, 11:03:12 PM
Not what he told me, but maybe I lost something in translation?

"У нас работа будет - у них нет. У нас пенсии будут - у них нет. У нас поддержка людей - детей и пенсионеров - будет, у них нет. У нас дети пойдут в школы и детские сады, а у них они будут сидеть по подвалам. Потому что они ничего не умеют делать! Вот так, именно так мы выиграем эту войну".
Вообще-то это называется геноцидом.

Speaking of lost in translation this is sad considering the co founder of Google was born in Russia...

"We will work - they do not have. We will be retired - they do not have. We have the support of people - children and seniors - will, they do not. We will go to children in schools and kindergartens, and they they will sit the cellars. because they do not know how to do! so, this is how we will win this war. "
Actually, it is called genocide.

I have no idea what this means... just a bunch of illogical snippets of English words - good old Google mis-translation.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Millaa on November 14, 2014, 11:14:48 PM
Speaking of lost in translation this is sad considering the co founder of Google was born in Russia...
"We will work - they do not have. We will be retired - they do not have. We have the support of people - children and seniors - will, they do not. We will go to children in schools and kindergartens, and they they will sit the cellars. because they do not know how to do! so, this is how we will win this war. "
Actually, it is called genocide.

I have no idea what this means... just a bunch of illogical snippets of English words - good old Google mis-translation.

"Ukrainians will have jobs - Donbas people will not. Ukrainians will have pensions - Donbas people will not. Ukrainian children will go to schools and kindergartens, and Russian kids will sit in the cellars during the bombing. Because they can not work. So we will win this war."
Actually, it is called genocide.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on November 15, 2014, 12:16:14 AM
Ukraine did NOT invade Russia.

Russia invaded Ukraine.

Putin said he did this because of Obama - I agree Obama placed him and the ME in a bad situation, but I do not agree invading Ukraine was a smart choice.

And I think Putin would agree, but I think Putin felt he had no other choices.

What Ukraine needs is another Marshal Zhukov.

Wayne
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 15, 2014, 03:25:50 AM
I  was thinking about this image purported to be of a plane shooting down the Boeing. I think it is a fake.

Not for any practical reason to do with the image itself but rather for its appearance and timing.

That noted, the image clearly shows Donetsk airport and that made me wonder. The plane is in the wrong place.
I think this is a red herring.

To those who suggest that Russia should show evidence if they have it, remember the original show and tell by Russia. They said they knew more than they shared. They gave a chance to the US to come clean or throw the malefactors under the bus. In doing so Russia retained the right to move the disclosure process along in the future.

It is important to understand that there matters of state that states know about each other but do not disclose. Has Russia come out with clear evidence of US involvement in the shooting down then the outcomes would have been catastrophic. However, as time passes and the US are lowering the relative costs of disclosure relative to non disclosure we get closer to a point where the benefits to Russia of disclosure outweigh the costs of doing so.

====
Cufflinks as an old sea dog I am surprised that you were not trained in the value of using unpredictable and unexpected behaviour as a means to gather intelligence and as a side benefit to unsettle the opponent. Probably above your pay grade.

However what the Russians are doing in the sea near to Australia is directly analogous to the actions of the US in the Black Sea during the winter Olympics. The connection wil not have gone unnoticed. At the same time it is historically normal for both Russia and the US to station a naval force within reach of heads of state at meetings of this kind, Russia stopped doing it for a while.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 15, 2014, 10:32:24 AM
... and Russian kids will sit in the cellars during the bombing...

People imagine that today's status quo (in this case, being insulated from the war) will continue indefinitely. The arrogant, delusional Poroshenko may soon tell Ukraine that they will win because our cellars are better than their cellars?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on November 15, 2014, 01:40:15 PM
When Poroshenko focuses on the business side of this stupid war, Russia will lose hands down.

Unfortunately, Poroshenko's first 4 to 6 months focus on learning the ropes of cheap politics, strategic war, espionage, and that he cannot trust Europe, or Obama, much more than he can trust Russia.

Putin striking Ukraine in his proxy war with Obama was a strategic error.  Much like Germany in WW2, I know the generals recommended NOT invading Ukraine.

This war will bleed Russia MUCH more than Afghanistan did.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on November 15, 2014, 01:44:08 PM
....

However what the Russians are doing in the sea near to Australia is directly analogous to the actions of the US in the Black Sea during the winter Olympics. The connection wil not have gone unnoticed. At the same time it is historically normal for both Russia and the US to station a naval force within reach of heads of state at meetings of this kind, Russia stopped doing it for a while.

Andrew,

You nail the nail sometimes, but I think you missed this one and hit your thumb.

The Olympic debacle told Putin to NOT invade until AFTER the Olympics.

Wayne
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 15, 2014, 01:48:54 PM
When Poroshenko focuses on the business side of this stupid war, Russia will lose hands down.

Wayne,

I'll remind you of what you posted when the time is right.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on November 15, 2014, 02:22:54 PM
When Poroshenko focuses on the business side of this stupid war, Russia will lose hands down.

Wayne,

I'll remind you of what you posted when the time is right.

Note, I said when.

He is still listening to politicians from the West, much less than 3 months ago.  And he is still listening to his generals and letting his anger cloud his judgment.

The way to win this war is through business and the courts.  Putin knows that.

Wayne
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 16, 2014, 06:00:28 AM
Sparky, it is worse than that even!
Yes, it is contradictory and foolish, yes it shows that Ukraine no longer has a government (they don't even have a governing coalition after 3 weeks).

Back in 2009 the Rada accepted as unconstitutional the then current legislation that denied the rights of pensioners not living in Ukraine to  receive their pensions. As a result, Ukrainian pensioners are entitled to receive their pensions, in full, no matter where in the world they choose to live.

Before that change Ukraine would pay six months of pensions to the expat pensioner and then close the account - unless the pensioner was living in a country/state with which Ukraine had a specific pensions agreement.

So, under this law, even if Ukraine justified the action on the basis that the area was not a part of Ukraine, under Ukrainian control, there's no grounds to not pay the pensions. If the region is still part of Ukraine then there's no good reason to not pay the pensions.

The withdrawal of state appendages from the region shows that Ukraine considers the region, in practical terms, to no longer be part of Ukraine.

This action is driven by, I think, two major factors: Ukraine has no money left after its kleptocrats have had their bite and so saving money by not paying pensions and removing the apparatus of the state from the region reduces outgoings. Secondly this is an act of spite and petulance by the Ukrainian government (such as it is).

This silliness should be filed in the same folder as the current coal farrago wherein they bought coal, via a UK intermediary, from South Africa. After delivery of the first tranche of coal they refused to pay, of course keeping the coal. Steel Mont, the vendor have refused to supply any more 'free' coal. South Africa refuse to supply in the absence of payment. Now Pland is refusing supply, on the grounds of non-payment.

The latest efforts to get coal were an offer to purchase from the DPR who have refused, quite sensibly, until Ukraine starts keeping to the Minsk accords and withdrawing its attackers and starts paying pensions etc.

This is the remnants of a country flailing in its death throes.

Oh, Russia have said that they are willing to consider supplying coal to Ukraine as long as they pay for it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Isthmus on November 16, 2014, 06:24:33 AM
I say it is a logical and expected move by Poroshenko. Will in time help foster discontent amongst the populace with the Kremlin's so called 'Novorossiya' proxies if they drag their feet in providing substitute services (which they invariably will). In time a return to Kiev's rule will also mean pensions,  school services, social services etc.

Poroshenko is just gearing up for the next round of warfare in Donbass & Lugansk. This war will go up another notch soon.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 16, 2014, 06:29:57 AM
The screws are being turned on the US here.

They had a satellite there at the time. They know what happened but chose not to share. Why is that?  :innocent:

Russia also knows what happened. They gave the US months to come clean on what they knew.

That's right.
I can understand why the Russians are handling the matter in this way. Given that any evidence the US has from the satellite(s) they had up in place at the time th US face the problem that non disclosure demonstrates their complicity and for global security that is a very dangerous think - you don't poke a cornered rat with a stick, even if the rat is tired and wounded.

The very presence of the satellite the Russians indicated was present shows that the US was complicit because those things do not have stable orbits, they are driven around the sky so being at a place, at a time is a pre-planned event. If the US knew in advance of the event, which they had to do in order to position the equipment in place, why did they not stop the murders when they had the opportunity?

Back in July the Russians were giving the US a chance to cover their tracks without being forced to admit what was obvious, As time goes by the Russians have less incentive to spare the 'blushes' of the US.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: d672 on November 16, 2014, 09:39:58 PM
The screws are being turned on the US here.

They had a satellite there at the time. They know what happened but chose not to share. Why is that?  :innocent:

Russia also knows what happened. They gave the US months to come clean on what they knew.

That's right.
I can understand why the Russians are handling the matter in this way. Given that any evidence the US has from the satellite(s) they had up in place at the time th US face the problem that non disclosure demonstrates their complicity and for global security that is a very dangerous think - you don't poke a cornered rat with a stick, even if the rat is tired and wounded.

The very presence of the satellite the Russians indicated was present shows that the US was complicit because those things do not have stable orbits, they are driven around the sky so being at a place, at a time is a pre-planned event. If the US knew in advance of the event, which they had to do in order to position the equipment in place, why did they not stop the murders when they had the opportunity?

Back in July the Russians were giving the US a chance to cover their tracks without being forced to admit what was obvious, As time goes by the Russians have less incentive to spare the 'blushes' of the US.


 So let me get this straight.... Russia is just trying to be nice and not let the US embarrass themselves. Is that what you are trying to tell us? That is hilarious!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 16, 2014, 10:31:26 PM
That delusional as well.  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Dogsoldier on November 17, 2014, 01:28:37 AM
The screws are being turned on the US here.

They had a satellite there at the time. They know what happened but chose not to share. Why is that?  :innocent:

Russia also knows what happened. They gave the US months to come clean on what they knew.

That's right.
I can understand why the Russians are handling the matter in this way. Given that any evidence the US has from the satellite(s) they had up in place at the time th US face the problem that non disclosure demonstrates their complicity and for global security that is a very dangerous think - you don't poke a cornered rat with a stick, even if the rat is tired and wounded.

The very presence of the satellite the Russians indicated was present shows that the US was complicit because those things do not have stable orbits, they are driven around the sky so being at a place, at a time is a pre-planned event. If the US knew in advance of the event, which they had to do in order to position the equipment in place, why did they not stop the murders when they had the opportunity?

Back in July the Russians were giving the US a chance to cover their tracks without being forced to admit what was obvious, As time goes by the Russians have less incentive to spare the 'blushes' of the US.
You couldn't make it up. Oh, my bad, it just was. Please, you need to start taking your meds.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sparky114 on November 17, 2014, 01:45:58 AM
The screws are being turned on the US here.

They had a satellite there at the time. They know what happened but chose not to share. Why is that?  :innocent:

Russia also knows what happened. They gave the US months to come clean on what they knew.

That's right.
I can understand why the Russians are handling the matter in this way. Given that any evidence the US has from the satellite(s) they had up in place at the time th US face the problem that non disclosure demonstrates their complicity and for global security that is a very dangerous think - you don't poke a cornered rat with a stick, even if the rat is tired and wounded.

The very presence of the satellite the Russians indicated was present shows that the US was complicit because those things do not have stable orbits, they are driven around the sky so being at a place, at a time is a pre-planned event. If the US knew in advance of the event, which they had to do in order to position the equipment in place, why did they not stop the murders when they had the opportunity?

Back in July the Russians were giving the US a chance to cover their tracks without being forced to admit what was obvious, As time goes by the Russians have less incentive to spare the 'blushes' of the US.
You couldn't make it up. Oh, my bad, it just was. Please, you need to start taking your meds.

Ohh DS all i hear from you is your PRO Ukrainian mouth piece denying and putting down of everyones comments

Come on then start and post some of your side view , and how you think that this should be sorted and to what end this would all achieve.

Now theres a good fellow try to be constructive/ objective.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 17, 2014, 03:17:21 AM
Dogsoldier, yes,  Sparky is right. Automatic gainsaying of the words of another does not make for a sensible discussion.

So,  in the spirit of learning, given that the US moved one of their latest spy satellites into position above the particular area of the MH17 shooting down and thus had prior knowledge of an event,  why would you excuse the US from culpability in the crime given that they took no action to stop the event,  choosing to,  if we are charitable, to simply sit and watch?

Given that,  at the time,  NATO were on electronic warfare and surveillance exercises in the region and had AWACS planes in the air with this part of Ukraine within their purview, why did NATO take no action to warn the ATC staff in Kiev or Rostock, or the pilots directly of what they were seeing? Or not even provide the data that they'd have had to hand covering the area?

Tell us Dogsoldier about these things. I don't know about anyone else,  but I am keen to learn from you.

D672, yes,  exactly this! You may not know about this stuff but there's an area of statecraft called 'diplomacy' practiced by 'diplomats'.  In many cases politicians and military men are engaged in diplomacy. Their job is to attain the goals of their employing state without going to war.

There is a well understood principle that embarrassing a counterpart tends to be counterproductive in attaining positive outcomes. Publicising US involvement in the shooting down of MH17 would be very embarrassing to the US and would tend to reduce the possible options that the US would have available for its dealings in Ukraine and with Russia - just the same as between two individuals.

However,  if the US chooses to ignore the diplomatic courtesies offered then,  at some point,  it is possible that Russia could cast aside those courtesies and make clear what really happened,  removing from the US the option to cast their murderous actions or malign neglect in a less negative light.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on November 17, 2014, 03:24:24 AM
Dogsoldier, yes,  Sparky is right. Automatic gainsaying of the words of another does not make for a sensible discussion.

So,  in the spirit of learning, given that the US moved one of their latest spy satellites into position above the particular area of the MH17 shooting down and thus had prior knowledge of an event,  why would you excuse the US from culpability in the crime given that they took no action to stop the event,  choosing to,  if we are charitable, to simply sit and watch?

Given that,  at the time,  NATO were on electronic warfare and surveillance exercises in the region and had AWACS planes in the air with this part of Ukraine within their purview, why did NATO take no action to warn the ATC staff in Kiev or Rostock, or the pilots directly of what they were seeing? Or not even provide the data that they'd have had to hand covering the area?

Tell us Dogsoldier about these things. I don't know about anyone else,  but I am keen to learn from you.

D672, yes,  exactly this! You may not know about this stuff but there's an area of statecraft called 'diplomacy' practiced by 'diplomats'.  In many cases politicians and military men are engaged in diplomacy. Their job is to attain the goals of their employing state without going to war.

There is a well understood principle that embarrassing a counterpart tends to be counterproductive in attaining positive outcomes. Publicising US involvement in the shooting down of MH17 would be very embarrassing to the US and would tend to reduce the possible options that the US would have available for its dealings in Ukraine and with Russia - just the same as between two individuals.

However,  if the US chooses to ignore the diplomatic courtesies offered then,  at some point,  it is possible that Russia could cast aside those courtesies and make clear what really happened,  removing from the US the option to cast their murderous actions or malign neglect in a less negative light.

Andrew you are making a lot of assumptions & accusations, do you have any proof of any of this?
Or is this you rambling along, projecting on others what you believe?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Dogsoldier on November 17, 2014, 04:33:25 AM
Dogsoldier, yes,  Sparky is right. Automatic gainsaying of the words of another does not make for a sensible discussion.

So,  in the spirit of learning, given that the US moved one of their latest spy satellites into position above the particular area of the MH17 shooting down and thus had prior knowledge of an event,  why would you excuse the US from culpability in the crime given that they took no action to stop the event,  choosing to,  if we are charitable, to simply sit and watch?

Given that,  at the time,  NATO were on electronic warfare and surveillance exercises in the region and had AWACS planes in the air with this part of Ukraine within their purview, why did NATO take no action to warn the ATC staff in Kiev or Rostock, or the pilots directly of what they were seeing? Or not even provide the data that they'd have had to hand covering the area?

Tell us Dogsoldier about these things. I don't know about anyone else,  but I am keen to learn

Andrew, in keeping with the spirit of openness and learning that you profess to espouse, do please enlighten us as to your sources of classified US military and NATO data. Are you privy to tracking data for US milsats? Do provide links so we can also learn.
Are you privy to the surveillance data from these satellites?
Do provide links so our lnowledge is suitably enhanced.

Are you privy to the data that NATO was tracking during their exercise?
Pkease do provide a source so your knowledge is available to us.

I too am keen to learn from you.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 17, 2014, 07:39:36 AM
Putin is getting closer to admitting the truth.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3212544-putin-sides-abiding-peace-deal-ukraine.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2

Are you sure that English is your native tongue?

What truth is he getting closer to admitting? There's nothing concealed in those words which are from an interview he recorded before going to the G20 meeting and which reflect the reality of what is happening in Ukraine.

Neither the rebels or the junta are fully implementing the cease fire, neither side has withdrawn to demarcation lines. Peace is still possible.
The reasons why the rebels are not wanting to fall back in every case is clear, sensible and in the context reasonable - Putin made that clear, nothing hidden. He was also clear, and reiterated this from previous occasions, that Russia would not allow Ukraine to perform an ethnic cleaning operation in the region. Nothing new, nothing hidden. He was right to note that fighters can always find weapons - as we already know the rebels have taken over military bases and arms caches in the region they have also captured huge amounts of materiel from the Ukrainian forces and they receive a huge amount of support from the Russian people. Nothing new here.

I can see that you were unable to grasp the context of what you were reading and thus picked upon a couple of words that you thought might be important - if you knew what you were reading about you'd understand just how you'd been misled. To be charitable to you, here's a bone for you: there's a world of difference between Canada the state and Canada the nation and, again, between Canada the society (people). Think about how that works and place that into the context of what you read and were misled by here. ;)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: leslied on November 17, 2014, 09:58:09 AM
Here we go again, in one hand he says we are going to remove all your state services and hospital /school funding, pensions, banks, c/cards so your nothing to do with us or a drain on our economy!

Then with the other hand he says you can not be self governing so withdraws that law  ???

Come on Povertyshenko make your mind up for gods sake. do you want this area or not?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30072483

I have personal reports that pensions and salaries of public servants are not being paid in Donbas and have not been paid for the last several months !! 

So that is the situation on the ground

This is a perfect strategy to get the people in Donbas to want to remain in Ukraine  (:)

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on November 17, 2014, 10:23:18 AM
Putin is getting closer to admitting the truth.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3212544-putin-sides-abiding-peace-deal-ukraine.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2

Are you sure that English is your native tongue?

What truth is he getting closer to admitting? There's nothing concealed in those words which are from an interview he recorded before going to the G20 meeting and which reflect the reality of what is happening in Ukraine.

Neither the rebels or the junta are fully implementing the cease fire, neither side has withdrawn to demarcation lines. Peace is still possible.
The reasons why the rebels are not wanting to fall back in every case is clear, sensible and in the context reasonable - Putin made that clear, nothing hidden. He was also clear, and reiterated this from previous occasions, that Russia would not allow Ukraine to perform an ethnic cleaning operation in the region. Nothing new, nothing hidden. He was right to note that fighters can always find weapons - as we already know the rebels have taken over military bases and arms caches in the region they have also captured huge amounts of materiel from the Ukrainian forces and they receive a huge amount of support from the Russian people. Nothing new here.

I can see that you were unable to grasp the context of what you were reading and thus picked upon a couple of words that you thought might be important - if you knew what you were reading about you'd understand just how you'd been misled. To be charitable to you, here's a bone for you: there's a world of difference between Canada the state and Canada the nation and, again, between Canada the society (people). Think about how that works and place that into the context of what you read and were misled by here. ;)
As this thread was suppose to be for links only, I did one line, then all can read for themselves, take from it what you will.
I really don't need or want your help, thanks :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 17, 2014, 10:46:19 AM
As this thread was suppose to be for links only, I did one line, then all can read for themselves, take from it what you will.
I really don't need or want your help, thanks :)

The title does not indicate that this thread is for links only.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 17, 2014, 10:57:11 AM
As this thread was suppose to be for links only, I did one line, then all can read for themselves, take from it what you will.
I really don't need or want your help, thanks :)

The title does not indicate that this thread is for links only.

Conversation on the links topic gets moved to this one.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on November 17, 2014, 11:25:46 AM
As this thread was suppose to be for links only, I did one line, then all can read for themselves, take from it what you will.
I really don't need or want your help, thanks :)

The title does not indicate that this thread is for links only.

Conversation on the links topic gets moved to this one.

Noted, 2nd part still stands.:)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 17, 2014, 03:42:42 PM

Andrew you are making a lot of assumptions & accusations, do you have any proof of any of this?
Or is this you rambling along, projecting on others what you believe?

To which assumptions and accusations do you refer?
Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone's knowledge of the world is as limited as yours is. In life,  in many areas, there is a body of knowledge that is assumed to be known and shared by all. To not have possession of that body of knowledge can be a real handicap.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on November 17, 2014, 03:45:11 PM

Andrew you are making a lot of assumptions & accusations, do you have any proof of any of this?
Or is this you rambling along, projecting on others what you believe?

To which assumptions and accusations do you refer?
Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone's knowledge of the world is as limited as yours is. In life,  in many areas, there is a body of knowledge that is assumed to be known and shared by all. To not have possession of that body of knowledge can be a real handicap.
I realize you are handicapped, as noted elsewhere I am not qualified to help you with this tiphat
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: d672 on November 17, 2014, 04:15:54 PM

D672, yes,  exactly this! You may not know about this stuff but there's an area of statecraft called 'diplomacy' practiced by 'diplomats'.  In many cases politicians and military men are engaged in diplomacy. Their job is to attain the goals of their employing state without going to war.

There is a well understood principle that embarrassing a counterpart tends to be counterproductive in attaining positive outcomes. Publicising US involvement in the shooting down of MH17 would be very embarrassing to the US and would tend to reduce the possible options that the US would have available for its dealings in Ukraine and with Russia - just the same as between two individuals.

However,  if the US chooses to ignore the diplomatic courtesies offered then,  at some point,  it is possible that Russia could cast aside those courtesies and make clear what really happened,  removing from the US the option to cast their murderous actions or malign neglect in a less negative light.

 Yes Andrew, I do know about this "stuff", learned about it here...   :chuckle:

  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0164184/

  What you wrote above is not being nice to avoid embarrassing the other... it is more like blackmail to achieve personal gain. And in my opinion, if anything, your theory should be turned around 180 degrees. If someone told me that the US has not been forthcoming with evidence about what happened because they are using it as leverage against Russia, that would be much more believable than turning it around... like what you are trying to imply. You cannot deny that Russia has a lot more involvement in this fight than the US does! Every day there is more and more proof of Russian involvement with the terrorists... much more proof than US involvement with Ukraine forces.

 So tell us Andrew, why do you insist on saying it is Russia who has something on the US when it is much more likely that the US has something on Russia?   :coffeeread:   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 17, 2014, 04:22:47 PM
Poroshenko: Crowds chant "fascist" when he arrived in Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia in the EU.



Yea All fifty of them. Every head of state has that type of problem some place in the world. So what is the big deal???
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 17, 2014, 04:47:13 PM
Here we go again, in one hand he says we are going to remove all your state services and hospital /school funding, pensions, banks, c/cards so your nothing to do with us or a drain on our economy!

Then with the other hand he says you can not be self governing so withdraws that law  ???

Come on Povertyshenko make your mind up for gods sake. do you want this area or not?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30072483


  I think Poroshenko is close to giving up. The last vote and the new Russian military supplies is more than he can over come. The Mink agreement was suppose to be about re integrating these regions into the Ukraine with a separate region for them under Ukraine control. Both the leader of the DNR and LNR have said they have no plans for any re joining the Ukraine. I read that there is is going to be boarder crossing to inter the Ukraine and the people crossing are going to have to have the prober paper work. The people in these regions are no longer going to be Ukrainian citizens. I believe there is a period of time which the people will be giving to decide what side of the boarder they want to live on. The girl I write said nothing like this has happened yet. I understand most of this is suppose to start happen December 1. We will see if the boarder  guards show up then or not.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 17, 2014, 05:20:02 PM
I also nderstand if the people vote to be part of the Ukraine then all back pensions will be paid.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on November 17, 2014, 07:52:29 PM
No wonder China wants to repopulate Siberia with energy/natural resources technicians and workers (Red Chinese Army Reservists).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/09/01/putin-demands-federalization-for-ukraine-but-declares-it-off-limits-for-siberia/

Even the tiniest and most innocuous of federalization movements keeps Putin awake at night, but none more than Siberia. Consider what would happen to Putin’s power vertical if the Federal District of Siberia, which accounts for twenty percent of the Russian population and more than three quarters of oil and gas production, decided to “federalize” itself along the lines Putin demands for Ukraine.

Let’s say, for purposes of illustration, that Siberian separatists force Putin’s federal government to split taxes and fees from Siberian oil and gas fifty-fifty. Oil and gas taxes of all kinds currently account for 53 percent of all federal revenues. Regions and municipalities currently get a tiny one tenth of one percent of oil and gas taxes, and Putin returns only five percent of federal revenues to regions and municipalities as grants. I doubt if  these one-sided arrangements make Siberian oil, mineral, and timber workers happy. They contribute about half of state revenues and get virtually nothing back.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 17, 2014, 08:49:03 PM
No wonder China wants to repopulate Siberia with energy/natural resources technicians and workers (Red Chinese Army Reservists).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/09/01/putin-demands-federalization-for-ukraine-but-declares-it-off-limits-for-siberia/

Even the tiniest and most innocuous of federalization movements keeps Putin awake at night, but none more than Siberia. Consider what would happen to Putin’s power vertical if the Federal District of Siberia, which accounts for twenty percent of the Russian population and more than three quarters of oil and gas production, decided to “federalize” itself along the lines Putin demands for Ukraine.

Let’s say, for purposes of illustration, that Siberian separatists force Putin’s federal government to split taxes and fees from Siberian oil and gas fifty-fifty. Oil and gas taxes of all kinds currently account for 53 percent of all federal revenues. Regions and municipalities currently get a tiny one tenth of one percent of oil and gas taxes, and Putin returns only five percent of federal revenues to regions and municipalities as grants. I doubt if  these one-sided arrangements make Siberian oil, mineral, and timber workers happy. They contribute about half of state revenues and get virtually nothing back.

I've said it before and I'll say it again Putin has more to worry about by partnering with China than he has to worry about by partnering with the EU or US. China is hungry for energy and there's enough coal, oil and gas in eastern Russia to supply China for decades. It's all within easy access to China and China won't back down and play fair like the EU or US.

IF Putin or his successors makes a mistake with China, Russia could find itself with a sudden influx of PLA troops and a Chinese annexation of eastern Russia. Neither the EU nor NATO/US will come to Russia's defence in a war between Russia and China.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 18, 2014, 01:06:58 AM
Westy, you are confusing China with the west. China is not a warring expansionist nation. It isn't dropping bombs on the other side of the world like some we know.

Russia and China have a business relationship. Why should either seek to change it? Using your thinking, because I draw money from the ATM of a bank, it will incline me to rob said bank. Not the case.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 18, 2014, 01:23:49 AM
Westy, you are confusing China /Russia with the west. China Russia is not a warring expansionist nation. It isn't dropping bombs on the other side of the world like some we know.

Russia and China Ukraine have had a business relationship, they were brothers. Why should either seek to change it? Using your thinking, because I draw money from the ATM of a bank, it will incline me to rob said bank. Not the case.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on November 18, 2014, 08:06:23 AM
Westy, you are confusing China /Russia with the west. China Russia is not a warring expansionist nation. It isn't dropping bombs on the other side of the world like some we know.

Russia and China Ukraine have had a business relationship, they were brothers. Why should either seek to change it? Using your thinking, because I draw money from the ATM of a bank, it will incline me to rob said bank. Not the case.

So what country far away from Russia has Russia bombed lately?

If you correct Manny , at least do try to make sense.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on November 18, 2014, 08:58:23 PM
Putin is getting closer to admitting the truth.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3212544-putin-sides-abiding-peace-deal-ukraine.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2

Are you sure that English is your native tongue?

What truth is he getting closer to admitting? There's nothing concealed in those words which are from an interview he recorded before going to the G20 meeting and which reflect the reality of what is happening in Ukraine.

Neither the rebels or the junta are fully implementing the cease fire, neither side has withdrawn to demarcation lines. Peace is still possible.
The reasons why the rebels are not wanting to fall back in every case is clear, sensible and in the context reasonable - Putin made that clear, nothing hidden. He was also clear, and reiterated this from previous occasions, that Russia would not allow Ukraine to perform an ethnic cleaning operation in the region. Nothing new, nothing hidden. He was right to note that fighters can always find weapons - as we already know the rebels have taken over military bases and arms caches in the region they have also captured huge amounts of materiel from the Ukrainian forces and they receive a huge amount of support from the Russian people. Nothing new here.

I can see that you were unable to grasp the context of what you were reading and thus picked upon a couple of words that you thought might be important - if you knew what you were reading about you'd understand just how you'd been misled. To be charitable to you, here's a bone for you: there's a world of difference between Canada the state and Canada the nation and, again, between Canada the society (people). Think about how that works and place that into the context of what you read and were misled by here. ;)

That is Okay.

Neither English, nor Spanish, are your best languages.

 ;D

Wayne
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on November 19, 2014, 08:42:16 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-18/ukraine-admits-its-gold-gone

According to the World Gold Council, the source quoted at the start of that article, Ukraine has a very similar amount of gold now as it did in February (40.4 tonnes / 9.6% of reserves versus 42.3 tonnes / 8% of reserves).

http://www.rts.ch/la-1ere/programmes/factuel/6305528.html/BINARY/World_Official_Gold_Holdings_as_of_November2014_IFS.pdf
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 19, 2014, 09:23:41 AM
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.msg387012#msg387012

Mhr7 and AKmike, I think these really good news articles. Thanks for posting them.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 19, 2014, 10:17:15 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-18/ukraine-admits-its-gold-gone

According to the World Gold Council, the source quoted at the start of that article, Ukraine has a very similar amount of gold now as it did in February (40.4 tonnes / 9.6% of reserves versus 42.3 tonnes / 8% of reserves).

http://www.rts.ch/la-1ere/programmes/factuel/6305528.html/BINARY/World_Official_Gold_Holdings_as_of_November2014_IFS.pdf

I don't know if the article about the missing gold is accurate or not.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 19, 2014, 12:22:00 PM
You know we seem to have this problem with gold in the US. It seems no one knows if we still have it or not or what happened to it. It is no longer at fort Knott but other than that no one seem to know anything about it. Officially we still have it but try to find someone who has seen it. Congress does not seem to want to audit the gold neither though it has tried a few times. I maybe wrong, but missing gold is just something I find easy to believe possibile.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 19, 2014, 12:54:34 PM
Quote
It’s worth pointing out here that when NATO sacked Libya in 2011, one of the first items that came into question was the gold in Libya’s state-run central bank. Prior to the NATO takeover of that country, Libya had one of the highest per capita gold reserves in the world, alongside Lebanon, giving Libya a distinct advantage should it carry out former Libyan leader Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi’s long-term financial transition to a gold-backed Libyan Dinar. As you can imagine, this is no longer the case in Tripoli.

Additionally, like Libya, both Syria and Iran are two of the world’s last remaining nation states who both have state-run central banks and gold reserves which fall outside of the world’s private central banking syndicate.

Needless to say, you can see an obvious pattern emerging here.

Another interesting related article on gold here: http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/03/21/the-latest-heist-us-quietly-snatches-the-ukraines-gold-reserves/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 19, 2014, 01:51:08 PM
Yah fresh news from last March.. :Zzzzsleep: :Zzzzsleep: :Zzzzsleep:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 19, 2014, 02:03:40 PM
Quote
It’s worth pointing out here that when NATO sacked Libya in 2011, one of the first items that came into question was the gold in Libya’s state-run central bank. Prior to the NATO takeover of that country, Libya had one of the highest per capita gold reserves in the world, alongside Lebanon, giving Libya a distinct advantage should it carry out former Libyan leader Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi’s long-term financial transition to a gold-backed Libyan Dinar. As you can imagine, this is no longer the case in Tripoli.

Additionally, like Libya, both Syria and Iran are two of the world’s last remaining nation states who both have state-run central banks and gold reserves which fall outside of the world’s private central banking syndicate.

Needless to say, you can see an obvious pattern emerging here.

Another interesting related article on gold here: http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/03/21/the-latest-heist-us-quietly-snatches-the-ukraines-gold-reserves/

There's no indication in any source listed that Libya had a lot of gold reserves nor is there any indication in any source that NATO, the US or the EU took the gold. Again there is no indication that Ukraine sent any gold to NY nor is there any indication in the article that the US, NATO, EU or any other entity took/stole gold from Ukraine. It is simply a story someone made up.

There's no photos of the seizure of Ukrainian gold, no eyewitness testimony, nothing to indicate that gold from Ukrainian central bank left Ukraine, let alone who took it. Manny, I didn't think you could do it but this source is actually worse than RT.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 19, 2014, 03:35:24 PM
Keep going Westy and you can accuse Russia of taking everyones gold.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 19, 2014, 03:37:42 PM
Keep going Westy and you can accuse Russia of taking everyones gold.  :chuckle:

I never mentioned Russia took any country's gold. I'm saying your sources are getting worse and I didn't think that was possible.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 19, 2014, 03:51:37 PM
Keep going Westy and you can accuse Russia of taking everyones gold.  :chuckle:

I never mentioned Russia took any country's gold. I'm saying your sources are getting worse and I didn't think that was possible.

Go Google "Ukraine missing gold" and you will find a plethora of stories. All point to convenient invasions and/or gold sent to the US for safekeeping that is not returned. All point the finger in one direction.

Example: http://rt.com/op-edge/170948-germany-gold-us-sovereignty/

The Libya, Iran, Syria angle is an interesting one though.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mhr7 on November 19, 2014, 04:19:41 PM
Quote

A curious story, and one which should be taken with a mine of salt, has surfaced out of the pro-Russian newspaper Iskra, which reports - so far on an entirely unsubstantiated basis - that last Friday, in a mysterious operation under the cover of night, Ukraine's gold reserves were promptly loaded onboard an unmarked plane, which subsequently took the gold to the US.
Iskra seems to be the main source used by most websites.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Larry on November 19, 2014, 04:53:07 PM
Keep going Westy and you can accuse Russia of taking everyones gold.  :chuckle:

I never mentioned Russia took any country's gold. I'm saying your sources are getting worse and I didn't think that was possible.

Go Google "Ukraine missing gold" and you will find a plethora of stories. All point to convenient invasions and/or gold sent to the US for safekeeping that is not returned. All point the finger in one direction.

Example: http://rt.com/op-edge/170948-germany-gold-us-sovereignty/

During the Spanish Civil War the Soviets accepted from the Spanish government a quantity of gold estimated to be two-thirds to three-fourths of Spain's substantial gold supply.  Perhaps that is what gave the Russians the idea to float this story about Ukraine's government sending gold to the US.

It's a fascinating story how this all came about and how the huge amount of gold was shipped from Moscow to a port city with several Russian ships, then to the port of Odessa, then to Moscow. A Soviet NKVD officer, Walter Krivitsky, told a friend that if all the boxes of gold that were taken from the ships in Odessa were to be put on Red Square they would occupy all of the space of Red Square.

I'm not suggesting that the Soviets didn't deserve the gold.  They were the principal supplier of arms to the Republic during the Spanish Civil War.  Britain and France refused to sell arms to either side.  But, of course, Hitler and Mussolini gave massive quantities of arms to the Nationalists, in addition to providing military personnel.  I should note for the benefit of readers who are not familiar with the Spanish Civil War that it involved two sides: the Spanish government, consisting of various parties of the left (this side was often referred to as the Loyalists, as in loyal to the government), and the Nationalists, who were rightists lead by Spanish Army General Francisco Franco.  The Nationalists revolted against the government and after three years prevailed.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 19, 2014, 04:53:33 PM
Keep going Westy and you can accuse Russia of taking everyones gold.  :chuckle:

I never mentioned Russia took any country's gold. I'm saying your sources are getting worse and I didn't think that was possible.

Go Google "Ukraine missing gold" and you will find a plethora of stories. All point to convenient invasions and/or gold sent to the US for safekeeping that is not returned. All point the finger in one direction.

Example: http://rt.com/op-edge/170948-germany-gold-us-sovereignty/

The Libya, Iran, Syria angle is an interesting one though.

Did as you suggested and Googled "Ukraine missing gold". There seems to be a number of stories about Ukraine's missing gold. Some stories are saying as much as $20 billion in gold is missing. However since this happened in February 2014 or earlier while Viktor Yanukovych was president that seems to eliminate the US as a suspect. Yanukovych wasn't friendly with the US.

So I don't see how the US could get a plane into the country and get gold out of the banks and send it to the US. The stories do also mention Yanukovych's son and an investigation in Switzerland and freezing any Swiss bank accounts they may have.

None of the stories mention any audit of gold reserves prior to the gold's disappearance so there doesn't seem to be any way of knowing exactly when the gold disappeared. Did the gold disappear with Yanukovych and/or his son? Or was the gold embezzled over the course of months or years before?

IMHO I think the gold reserves of a country, the US or Germany or Russia etc, should be auditted on a regular basis. For example, have a major news organization, have several major news organizations, do regular tours of Fort Knox and the various gold depositories of the Federal Reserve to show the gold exists.

Also why is a country like Germany keeping so much gold in the US in this day and age is bewildering. I doubt that much needs to be stored in NYC to be used to settle debts or for foreign currency swaps, although there could be things happening behind the scenes that the public doesn't know about.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570062/Ukraine-government-looks-missing-20billion-gold-dries-secret-papers-fleeing-president-threw-water.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/ukraine-search-missing-billions-yanukovych-russia
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on November 20, 2014, 01:57:46 AM
Quote
It’s worth pointing out here that when NATO sacked Libya in 2011, one of the first items that came into question was the gold in Libya’s state-run central bank. Prior to the NATO takeover of that country, Libya had one of the highest per capita gold reserves in the world, alongside Lebanon, giving Libya a distinct advantage should it carry out former Libyan leader Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi’s long-term financial transition to a gold-backed Libyan Dinar. As you can imagine, this is no longer the case in Tripoli.

Additionally, like Libya, both Syria and Iran are two of the world’s last remaining nation states who both have state-run central banks and gold reserves which fall outside of the world’s private central banking syndicate.

Needless to say, you can see an obvious pattern emerging here.

Another interesting related article on gold here: http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/03/21/the-latest-heist-us-quietly-snatches-the-ukraines-gold-reserves/

It's a nice story, however the facts don't support it. Libya has 27.2 tonnes less gold than it did in January 2011 although as a percentage of reserves the amount is more or less comparable, and Lebanon has exactly the same amount as it did in January 2011.

Libya, January 2011 - 143.8 tonnes / 6.1% of reserves
Libya, November 2014 - 116.6 tonnes / 4.2% of reserves

Lebanon, January 2011 - 286.8 tonnes / 28.8% of reserves
Lebanon, November 2014 - 286.8 tonnes / 22.2% of reserves

http://www.lefigaro.fr/assets/pdf/World_Official_Gold_Holdings_January_2011.pdf

http://www.rts.ch/la-1ere/programmes/factuel/6305528.html/BINARY/World_Official_Gold_Holdings_as_of_November2014_IFS.pdf
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AkMike on November 20, 2014, 02:13:16 AM
It seems that someone's rag is wrong big time..
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 20, 2014, 08:48:04 AM
DNR plans to sue for the return of pensions.

http://rpne.net/dnr-delivers-to-ukraine-in-court-require-immediate-pension-and-then-scoop-is-dying-of-hunger.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 21, 2014, 08:12:32 AM
This is what I was thinking was going to happen. Russia is going to have to pick up the tab for the mess it made but will likely get the land it wanted. Before Ukraine cut off funds it was paying 2.3 billions dollars a year but that was not half enough.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/11/21/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-funding-idUKKCN0J51G920141121
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: d672 on November 22, 2014, 05:50:36 AM
A most interesting article that I think is quite well written and reasonably factual: All-Out War in Ukraine: NATO’s ‘Final Offensive’ (http://www.globalresearch.ca/all-out-war-in-ukraine-natos-final-offensive/5415354)


 Another link for you Manny... about the website you linked above

http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.ca/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

 Take special interest in what is said about global research towards the middle of the article.......


The Canada-based Centre for Research on Globalization is also interesting. It was founded and is now headed by Michel Chossudovsky; among the Centre's contributors are Neil Clark, Mahdi D. Nazemroaya and William Engdahl. Chossudovsky, Nazemroaya and Engdahl are members of the scientific committee of the Italian journal Geopolitica, which also includes John Laughland and Natalya Narochnitskaya. Geopolitica is edited by Tiberio Graziani, a fervent advocate of the Eurasian cooperation and a member of the High Council of the International Eurasian Movement led by Russian fascist Aleksandr Dugin. In 2008, Dugin called for the Russian occupation of Georgia, and even made a trip to South Ossetia together with his followers from the Eurasian Youth Union.


Geopolitica itself is an off-shoot from the Italian extreme right journal Eurasia, Rivista di Studi Geopolitici, published and edited by Italian Nazi-Maoist Claudio Mutti. The scientific board of Eurasia includes Aleksandr Dugin and William Engdahl. In the early January, Engdahl published a piece titled "The Belgrade US-Financed Training Group Behind the Carefully-Orchestrated Kiev Protests".




Dugin has been promoting the idea of the destruction of Ukraine and its colonisation by Russia since the early 1990s. He has also been an inspiration for the foundation of the Italian national-socialist organisation Stato & Potenza which openly calls for the annexation of Ukraine to the Russian Federation. Dugin and Mutti have been friends since 1990; Mutti himself is closely associated with Stato & Potenza.


All the above-mentioned people and groups form - apparently a small - part of the wide network which is aimed at promoting anti-Western, pro-Russian and pro-Eurasianist ideas in the EU and the US and Canada. Moreover, the following people from this network are official regular contributors to the Kremlin-sponsored Russia Today (RT) TV:

Michel Chossudovsky (Centre for Research on Globalization, Geopolitica)
Neil Clark
William Engdahl (Centre for Research on Globalization, Geopolitica, Eurasia)
Eric Draitser (Centre for Research on Globalization, Stop Imperialism)
Daniel McAdams (ex-BHHRG, Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity)
Mahdi D. Nazemroaya (Centre for Research on Globalization, Geopolitica)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 And here is what wikipedia has to say about the author of the article, James Petras....


Allegations of Antisemitism[edit]
In a 2006 article entitled "9/11 Anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theories Still Abound," the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) criticized Petras's assertion that there was evidence that Israelis may have known about the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks but withheld the information from the United States government. The ADL also noted Petras' assertion that "The lack of any public statement concerning Israel's possible knowledge of 9/11 is indicative of the vast, ubiquitous and aggressive nature of its powerful diaspora supporters."[10][11]

In a 2009 article, the ADL again criticized Petras, alleging that he blamed the on-going economic crisis on "Zionist" control over the U.S. government and world events, and alleged that Petras argued that pro-Israel Americans had launched a massive campaign to push the U.S. into a war with Iran. The ADL also alleged that Petras' allegations included the anti-Semitic accusation that the American Jewish community controls the mass media and is "bloodthirsty" in its appetite for war.[12] The previous year, Petras alleged that that "It was the massive infusion of financial contributions that allowed the [Zionist Power Configuration] (ZPC) to vastly expand the number of full-time functionaries, influence peddlers and electoral contributors that magnified their power – especially in promoting US Middle East wars, lopsided free trade agreements (in favor of Israel) and unquestioned backing of Israeli aggression against Lebanon, Syria and Palestine...No economic recovery is possible now or in the foreseeable future...while Zionist power brokers dictate US Mideast policies.[13][14]

The ADL also cited a 2008 interview in which Petras stated that [U.S.] presidents are at the disposal of "Jewish power" [15] and maintained, according to the ADL, that Jews represent "the greatest threat to world peace and humanity."[16] In the same 2008 interview cited by the ADL, Petras stated that "it’s one of the great tragedies that we have a minority that represents less than 2% of North American’s population but has such power in the communications media" and that the reason "why the North American public doesn’t react against the manipulations of this minority...[is] because the Jews control the communications media."[17] In an 2010 article published in the Arab American News, Petras stated that "For the U.S. mass media the problem is not Israeli state terror, but how to manipulate and disarm the outrage of the international community. To that end the entire Zionist power configuration has a reliable ally in the Zionized Obama White House and U.S. Congress."[18]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Maybe you don't care how unbiased your sources are when you post these links but please don't expect us to believe an article on a pro Russian website written by an alleged anti-semitic author who says the Jews are controlling the US government is a legitimate source.

 

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 22, 2014, 10:59:55 AM
Odd how many here obsess about the source when they disagree with the content, but are more than happy to claim something they support as valid even when it comes from a very questionable source. Everyone is happy to quote the Moscow Times that pretends to be a proper newspaper but in fact is a foreign funded propaganda website.

I rely less on the authors of an article or site and more on the actual content. One is free to agree or disagree or ignore. If one questioned the source of each link posted here, especially by the fanatical anti-Russian inclined, one would discount most links on the site.

All media has its own slant, all writers write from their own viewpoint. The view of some here seems to be if the source is pro-Russian, then its automatically invalid. But any mutterings they can find that happens to be anti-Russian suddenly has validity.

Doesnt work like that, why we have a no comment topic where people can post links to content they find interesting without being drowned out by a baying mob creating white noise. If a link I post doesn't happen to suit your viewpoint, how sad. You are free to post content you happen to agree with and the authors of which you personally approve of and have vetted extensively.  :biggrin:

Quote
Jews are controlling the US government

That is a topic all on its own really.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 22, 2014, 03:44:40 PM
A most interesting article that I think is quite well written and reasonably factual: All-Out War in Ukraine: NATO’s ‘Final Offensive’ (http://www.globalresearch.ca/all-out-war-in-ukraine-natos-final-offensive/5415354)

This scenario would virtually guarantee a nuclear attack on K'yiv.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 22, 2014, 04:12:22 PM
A most interesting article that I think is quite well written and reasonably factual: All-Out War in Ukraine: NATO’s ‘Final Offensive’ (http://www.globalresearch.ca/all-out-war-in-ukraine-natos-final-offensive/5415354)

This scenario would virtually guarantee a nuclear attack on K'yiv.

Whilst I think much of the article lays out some interesting factual accuracies in an easy-to-swallow manner, I doubt the main thrust that NATO is planning a war there as suggested. That would inevitably inveigle Russia which they don't want yet.

I think the wet dream is regime change in Russia funded from outside and disguised as another "colour revolution", and for that to be attempted, Putin must be first painted as the enemy to the west which the article lays out well how that is happening.

This is why, in my opinion, that Russia has secured the statement from China (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.msg387478#msg387478) that it and Russia should fight together to protect the interests of their countries and prevent the US driving a wedge between them.

Today, Lavrov has laid out that the dream of regime change is far from a secret (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30158978). I wrote about it here many times also.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 22, 2014, 04:58:52 PM
A most interesting article that I think is quite well written and reasonably factual: All-Out War in Ukraine: NATO’s ‘Final Offensive’ (http://www.globalresearch.ca/all-out-war-in-ukraine-natos-final-offensive/5415354)

I understand GlobalResearch.ca is active in posting RT articles on their website. Also lots of stories on GR's website about conspiracies surrounding 9/11. (http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-walls-are-crumbling-down-around-the-official-911-story-why/5394984) Manny you do have great sources.  :laugh:

Manny you got any sources for shape shifting aliens that secretly rule Earth through their connections to the Illuminati and Freemasons?  :ROFL:

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: d672 on November 22, 2014, 07:07:00 PM
Odd how many here obsess about the source when they disagree with the content, but are more than happy to claim something they support as valid even when it comes from a very questionable source. Everyone is happy to quote the Moscow Times that pretends to be a proper newspaper but in fact is a foreign funded propaganda website.

I rely less on the authors of an article or site and more on the actual content. One is free to agree or disagree or ignore. If one questioned the source of each link posted here, especially by the fanatical anti-Russian inclined, one would discount most links on the site.

All media has its own slant, all writers write from their own viewpoint. The view of some here seems to be if the source is pro-Russian, then its automatically invalid. But any mutterings they can find that happens to be anti-Russian suddenly has validity.

Doesnt work like that, why we have a no comment topic where people can post links to content they find interesting without being drowned out by a baying mob creating white noise. If a link I post doesn't happen to suit your viewpoint, how sad. You are free to post content you happen to agree with and the authors of which you personally approve of and have vetted extensively.  :biggrin:

Quote
Jews are controlling the US government

That is a topic all on its own really.


 And you have never questioned a source posted here?   :coffeeread:

 Of course I would check the source, try to look at this from my eyes. I know you are adamant about your position in this conflict, so when you post a link to an article and say it is reasonably factual I am going to go read it looking for the reasons you say that. Maybe you know something I don't... maybe it will help me understand why you believe so strongly in your position. I will be the first to say that most guys on this site know more about world politics than I do. You are not the only one who is strongly pro Russian and I am curious as to why... what am I not seeing?

 The article you link had some pretty extreme accusations and theories, so naturally I wanted to learn more about where the information was coming from. The links I gave about the website and the author were not the only ones I found... but I can tell you that I didn't find one source that said that confirmed credibility to either of them.... quite the opposite in fact.

 Hopefully now you understand that I just didn't write this off as something opposite to my view point, I was just trying to look into the mind of Manny and try to understand why you think the way you do. Linking biased articles is not going to help me keep an open mind about your view point though... sorry if I am not a mindless drone.
 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 23, 2014, 02:34:26 AM
Nobody expects you to be a mindless drone d672.

We will find glaring inaccuracies in much of the media from either side in this. Even some of the well respected ones have been caught lying their arses off. One must ask why that is? A reasonable deduction can only be loyalty or money.

When an article makes a claim, take the recent frenzy about a Russian warplane and a Russian submarine in Swedish airspace. It turns out that the sub they couldn't find and might have been Dutch, and the latest plane was French. Drilling into the author won't elicit that. Researching the facts might.

So if I see a claim that Putin says he can "take Kiev in weeks", regardless of source, I'd like to read that in context if it was said. When I did that, we find the grovelling EU retractions that followed Russia offering to publish the whole transcript of the conversation. We then find the person who "heard" it wasn't even there.

When I saw this again and again over time, I decided to read the source: What Putin actually says. When I did, I can find very little to disagree with. Its that simple. When I read the position of the west, one starts to ask questions. Often questions that have no proper answers.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on November 23, 2014, 09:24:24 AM
Whilst I think much of the article lays out some interesting factual accuracies in an easy-to-swallow manner, I doubt the main thrust that NATO is planning a war there as suggested. That would inevitably inveigle Russia which they don't want yet.

I think the wet dream is regime change in Russia funded from outside and disguised as another "colour revolution", and for that to be attempted, Putin must be first painted as the enemy to the west which the article lays out well how that is happening.

This is why, in my opinion, that Russia has secured the statement from China (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.msg387478#msg387478) that it and Russia should fight together to protect the interests of their countries and prevent the US driving a wedge between them.

Today, Lavrov has laid out that the dream of regime change is far from a secret (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30158978). I wrote about it here many times also.

I don't believe this is about NATO's sphere of influence per se. I've been saying this for years, Putin is paranoid about regime change. Not for any ideological reason but simply because it's the thing he fears the most.

Any talk of NATO "advancing to Russia's borders" is nonsense really considering that Russia already borders three NATO countries.

Four years ago there was even some talk of Russia joining NATO, and in 2011 Russia held joint exercises with NATO. Hardly the kind of thing you would do with such a deadly enemy as that which Putin is trying to paint NATO as now.

The 2011 / 2012 street protests really shook Putin. Hence why there has been an ever-increasing crackdown on the independent press in Russia, the freedom of the internet, the right to stage peaceful protests, and on the protesters themselves since then which is still going on today.

Regarding Ukraine, Putin cannot afford for a popular uprising so close to home to be seen as successful. This is why Russia is arming and helping the separatists, to ensure that the country remains unsettled and unsuccessful.

This is also why Putin is opposed to any international action in Syria (although in addition to the regime change issue, Syria accounts for 10% of Russia's international arms sales and Russian intelligence is currently operating in Syria to support al-Assad).

As for the statement from China, that is very clever on their part. They are essentially keeping Putin sweet by telling him what he wants to hear. When you look at the level of trade between the US and China you will realise that China is not about to jeopardise that at any time in the near future. When you factor in the trade with the EU too the trade with Russia pales into relative insignificance. Russia's economy isn't going to suddenly grow to a size where their trade with China replaces that of the US and EU and so China's long-term strategy is for good relations with the West.

However Russia has raw materials which China wants and needs, and China is getting a very good deal at the moment due to Russia "turning away" from the West. They're playing a good game.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 23, 2014, 10:17:31 AM
Putin is paranoid about regime change.

I would be cautious about it if I were he. That is a tactic that is being applied across the world.

An interesting article on this I saw today, I haven't watched all the videos yet and I'll leave it up to Westy to discredit the source, but the article itself comes under the heading "things that make you go hmmm".

Worth discussing: http://scgnews.com/the-geopolitics-of-world-war-iii
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: leslied on November 23, 2014, 11:20:55 AM
Regarding Ukraine, Putin cannot afford for a popular uprising so close to home to be seen as successful. This is why Russia is arming and helping the separatists, to ensure that the country remains unsettled and unsuccessful.

I think this statement is farcical  :ROFL:

There are lots of valid reasons why Putin is supporting the separatists but this is not one of them.

If a presidential election was held now, Putin would win very easily - no need to cheat.  What western observers cannot credit is his popularity, instead they give credence to an opposition which in reality has little popular support...


This is also why Putin is opposed to any international action in Syria (although in addition to the regime change issue, Syria accounts for 10% of Russia's international arms sales and Russian intelligence is currently operating in Syria to support al-Assad).


Russia is a long time supporter (20+ years) of the Al Assad regime.  I live in Turkey so I have personal experience of this conflict.  Putin's support of Assad has limited western involvement in this conflict which in my personal opinion has been a very good thing.

Assad is the whitest angel descended from heaven compared to the Islamist terror gangs which the US and Europe have funded. 

First Obama funded the "Syrian opposition" and was shocked (sic) when it morphed into ISIL. Now he is funding / training the Kurdish Peshmerga who are just another gang of murderous zealots who will turn against their paymasters whenever it suits them. When these factions have slaughtered each other, look for Assad to emerge as the victor.  It is the best hope for the future of Syria...

The west needs to "butt out" these affairs but they won't.  Russia supplied Assad with the latest air defence  systems so the familiar regime change tactic of the west enforcing a "no fly zone" is simply not possible.  This is a very good thing.  Look at Libya,  Gaddafi was a dictator but life in Libya was far better under his regime than it is under the Islamist chaos and anarchy that exists today. 



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on November 23, 2014, 11:35:46 AM
I think this statement is farcical  :ROFL:

I meant successful as in toppling the government.

If a presidential election was held now, Putin would win very easily - no need to cheat.

I don't doubt that. I didn't say that there was going to be regime change, I said Putin was paranoid about it happening.

What western observers cannot credit is his popularity, instead they give credence to an opposition which in reality has little popular support...

Presumably you mean some Western observers?

Russia is a long time supporter (20+ years) of the Al Assad regime.

The support goes back much further than that, Russia and the USSR before that were strong supporters of his father's regime.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on November 23, 2014, 04:16:43 PM
Russia is a long time supporter (20+ years) of the Al Assad regime.

The support goes back much further than that, Russia and the USSR before that were strong supporters of his father's regime.

Yep.

http://www.motionelements.com/stock-video-2683834-hafez-al-assad-of-syria-meets-with-leonid-brezhnev
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on November 29, 2014, 06:02:57 PM
Four more interesting links:

Russia has no intention of building a new Iron Curtain, says Putin (http://rbth.co.uk/politics/2014/11/24/russia_has_no_intention_of_building_a_new_iron_curtain_says_putin_41637.html?code=841f997f5bab63b23e4d216a99516b9a)

MH17: Malaysia’s Barring from Investigation Reeks of Cover-up (http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/)

Top German Editor: CIA Bribing Journalists (http://russia-insider.com/en/tv_politics_media_watch/2014/11/05/04-27-30pm/top_german_editor_cia_bribing_journalists)

Is the CIA Running a Defamation Campaign Against Putin? (http://russia-insider.com/en/politics_media_watch/2014/11/04/02-02-59pm/cia_running_defamation_campaign_against_putin)

Manny that's impressive!! All Russian websites. Two of the four articles are websites run by the Russian government and the other two articles are from a website that is in partnership with a conspiracy website. Talk about reliable sources.  :laugh: 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2014, 02:40:23 AM
And this makes the content wrong?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on November 30, 2014, 04:10:10 AM

Manny that's impressive!! All Russian websites.

And this makes the content wrong?

Aha, by default (if you ask West that is). ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on November 30, 2014, 04:15:17 AM
And this makes the content wrong?

He did not refute the content yet...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on November 30, 2014, 05:10:39 AM
This seems to admit that Russian units started this war in the ukraine.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-s-igor-strelkov-claims-responsibility-for-unleashing-war-in-ukraine/511584.html :biggrin:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2014, 07:59:22 AM

Manny that's impressive!! All Russian websites.

And this makes the content wrong?

Aha, by default (if you ask West that is). ;D

It is the kneejerk position of most here. Ignore the content and rubbish the source if its not mainstream western media or anything ending in ".ua". Its a sort of groupthink.

And this makes the content wrong?

He did not refute the content yet...

And nor has anyone else.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 01, 2014, 05:03:13 AM
This seems to admit that Russian units started this war in the ukraine.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-s-igor-strelkov-claims-responsibility-for-unleashing-war-in-ukraine/511584.html :biggrin:

Only if you don't bother to read the article or can not understand what Strelkov said in his own words.

This has already been written about elsewhere on the forum but whilst it is certainly true that Strelkov played an important role he certainly overstates the position and understates the roles played by people such as Akhmetov, Bezler, Gubarov and others. Absent Strelkov there would still have been a resistance and Akhmetov's profile would have been much higher. Who can know how an alternate timeline would have played out but the Ukraine army would still have been useless, the national guard and other privateer groups would still have committed massacres and proven to be of low value as fighting units and the resistance would still have had the same access to resources.

Many months ago I suggested that Ukraine was in danger of becoming a collection of warlord led fiefdoms with various 'oligarchs' taking the role of warlord in their home territory and launching attacks upon rival gangs. That process is well underway in the rest of Ukraine as you can see from governorships and the claims of various armed group leaders and sponsors. Strelkov successfully ensured that this did not happen in the Donbass region and although Akhmetov is still an important figure the region is absolutely not his fiefdom as he had intended it to be.

Strelkov will have a place in the history books and his strategies will be studied for a long time to come because he played a blinder but he was not the defining factor of the success of the resistance.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on December 03, 2014, 02:21:29 PM
Does not look like Crimea Tourism will rebound any time soon as a tourst friendly destination...

http://news.yahoo.com/change-leadership-crimea-means-property-grab-095405755.html

YALTA, Crimea (AP) — One day in October, a dozen armed men in masks drove up to the gates of Yalta Film Studios. They weren't actors, and this was no make-believe. It was a hostile takeover.

"They forced all the employees onto the ground, sealed off the premises and halted the work of the studio," said owner Sergei Arshinov.

The studio, nestled in the hills overlooking the Black Sea, is just one of thousands of businesses seized from their owners since Crimea was annexed by Russia eight months ago. Crimea's new pro-Moscow leaders say the takeovers, which they call nationalizations, are indispensable to reverse years of wholesale plunder by Ukrainian politicians and oligarchs.

But an Associated Press investigation throughout this peninsula the size of Massachusetts found many instances of less noble practices: legal owners strong-armed off their premises; buildings, farms and other prime real estate seized on dubious pretenses, or with no legal justification at all; non-payment of the compensation mandated by the Russian constitution; and targeting of assets belonging to or used by the Crimean Tatar ethnic minority and the pro-Kiev branch of the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on December 03, 2014, 02:30:50 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-warns-recession-next-102222822--finance.html

MOSCOW (AP) — The Russian government has acknowledged that the country will fall into recession next year, battered by the combination of Western sanctions and a plunge in the price of its oil exports.

The news caused the stock market to drop and pushed the ruble to a fresh record low against the dollar.

The economic development ministry on Tuesday revised its GDP forecast for 2015 from growth of 1.2 percent to a drop of 0.8 percent. Russian households are expected to take hit, with disposable income seen declining by 2.8 percent against the previously expected 0.4 percent growth.

Russia's economic outlook is at the mercy of the global market for oil, a key export that finances the bulk of the state budget. Sanctions over Moscow's role in eastern Ukraine are making things worse, hurting Russian banks and investment sentiment in particular.

The national currency, the ruble, has dropped by more than 40 percent this year as the economic troubles mounted. That in turn risks spawning more problems, such as a spike in inflation that would pinch consumers.

While Russia's troubles could do some economic damage to Europe, they are unlikely to have much impact on the U.S. economy, the world's largest. Russia is the 28th-biggest market for the United States, absorbing $11.1 billion worth of U.S. goods last year.

"Russia-U.S. trade is hardly large," said Eric Lascelles, chief economist at RBC Global Asset Management. "I don't think we should be worried" about the impact of a Russian recession on U.S. exports.

In fact, the U.S. is benefiting from the lower oil prices that are driving Russian toward recession, and the money being pulled out of Russia is being pumped into U.S. and European financial markets, helping to keep interest rates low, Lascelles said.

Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Analytics, agreed, saying: "I don't think there's any direct economic impact" on the United States. However, he noted that Russian President Vladimir Putin could respond to the economic troubles by trying to divert the Russian public's attention with even more belligerent policies toward Ukraine and the West, raising tensions and perhaps rattling financial markets.

The release of the forecast on Tuesday afternoon weighed on the Russian stock market and the ruble, which fell 5.4 percent lower against the dollar, to a new all-time low of 53.97 per dollar.


March of 2010 I was getting 27 Rubles to the dollar in Moscow - now it is 54 Rubles to the dollar - Moscow and Russia are now a bargain for westerner travellers - if they do not hang you on site as I imagine the anti West rhetoric has also had an impact of RUW attitudes towards dating/marrying westerners.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on December 03, 2014, 02:58:05 PM
As there are not many trip reports of note on RUA any more this very recent on the ground report from FSU Georgia is nothing less that eye opening when compared to Russia and Ukraine:

Georgia: one of the most capitalist countries in the world
by Andrew Henderson | Dec 3, 2014
http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/12/03/georgia-one-capitalist-countries-world/


After all, fifty percent of the Georgian workforce is involved in agriculture (16 to 50 times the developed world average), while farmland here isn’t as high quality as Ukraine. As a result, workers are gradually moving to the cities.  However, many of these workers won’t have jobs waiting for them, and it’s not as if Georgia is as cheap a place to manufacture low-cost goods as, say, Bangladesh.

That’s why, in 2004, the Georgia government slashed the number of taxes from 21 to just six in order to stimulate the economy. Gone is the byzantine tax structure that once existed.
In its place is a simply, easy to understand tax system that includes just the basics: a flat 20% personal income tax, a flat 15% corporate profits tax, and several other low income taxes.

As a result, Georgia has become one of the most capitalist countries in the world.
Just walking around the capital city of Tbilisi the last few days has shown an exercise in efficiency.

Opening a bank account here is super easy. You can be in and out in less than an hour – soup to nuts – and several of the larger banks offer excellent online banking services, debit cards you can use anywhere on earth, and accounts in practically any currency you want.
Want another account once you leave Tbilisi? No problem; just add one in your internet banking.

If you’ve ever walked into some offshore bank and been told you don’t qualify to open an account because you don’t have a local job or because you’re a US person, Georgia will come as a welcome surprise.

On top of the ease and efficiency of opening an account, the larger banks stay open until 8pm most days. I’m told there are even a few 24-hour options available.

And ATMs are everywhere here in the city. So are bill pay machines. All up and down the city streets, you can pay your mobile phone or utility bill at one of an endless number of machines that make the process easy.

Everything here runs efficiently.

The country’s Public Service Hall, where you can form a corporation or apply for residency, looks more like a well-run airport check-in area than a government office.

In addition to cafes and bank branches, this government office has each business function conveniently set up in pods where you take a number, then go to the appropriate area for what you need.

Wait times are practically zero, even when the place is teeming with life.
While Georgia is not a tax haven and doesn’t have a de facto policy to incorporate companies in five minutes like The Gambia promises, you can pay more to speed up practically any service.

Want to form your company in a matter of hours? A few extra bucks and you’re done. Take the papers, head to the bank, and open your account. You could literally start an entire company, bank account and all, in one day here. All for around $500.

Want to apply for a second residency, but don’t want to wait two or three months for an answer? For $100-200 more, you can get an answer within days.

Even citizenship applications can get a guaranteed answer within a matter of a week for a nominal fee.

All this efficiency has western businesses taking notice. A recent survey of businessmen suggested that perception of corruption in Georgia is about as low as you can go.

In a region that doesn’t have the best reputation, businesses give Georgia high marks. In fact, the country is, by one estimation, the fourth most free market in the world.

One example of this is the fact that seemingly everyone here is in the money exchange business. Just walk down any main street and you’ll see signs offering to exchange dollars, euros, Turkish lira, and Russian rubles at close-to-spot rates.

Some of these places are your typical money exchange businesses, while others are mom and pop operations. I changed $100 I got out of an ATM (all ATMs dispense cash in Georgian lari or US dollars) into lari in the back of a woman’s clothing store.

No paperwork, no passport, no nonsense. Just ultra-low spreads and the free market at work. (Although the ability to speak a little Russian helps at times.)
You could argue that Eurasia didn’t need another pseudo-tax haven. Europe, of course, has Ireland, which gained its Celtic Tiger reputation by slashing corporate tax rates to 10% and 12.5%. Even though the country has pledged to abandon the Double Irish plan used by tech companies, I expect rates in Ireland to stay low for awhile.

Elsewhere, Bulgaria has the European Union’s lowest corporate tax rate at a flat 10%, with nearby Montenegro at a low 9%. Estonia charges a flat tax rate of 0% until you pay dividends, which are taxed at 21%.
Georgia’s flat 15% tax rate fits in nicely with those western countries, but Georgia offers the benefit of a Eurasian country that makes things incredible easy.

And they are continuing to cut taxes. Just this year, they slashed a number of 5% withholding taxes down to zero.


Georgia is also well situated to deal with Russian, Middle Eastern, and CIS businesses and clients.

The place certainly isn’t for everyone. Georgia is not another island tax haven that lets you start a business and run wild without any checks or balances. But the consensus is that the government is extremely keen to attract almost any kind of business.

And Tbilisi has an interesting feel to it. It’s like the quaint European streets of Vilnius or Tallinn met the awkward open spaces of Kosovo or Macedonia. But there is a lot of room for opportunity.

Oh, and they actually like Americans here. I guess being from a country looking to start a war with Russia will do that for you.

But that does mean that anyone can bank, do business, or live here. If you’re a westerner, they’ll welcome you with open arms.

Who knew???


I started Nomad Capitalist to help entrepreneurs and investors like you use legal offshore strategies to grow and protect their wealth. Perhaps like you, I was tired of the outdated information from nameless, faceless people. So after spending years learning and visiting 25+ countries a year, I created my own "Blueprint" for international diversification. It's yours when you join my community... 100% free.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on December 03, 2014, 03:07:05 PM
Russia drops south stream to Bulgaria amid EU sanctions and pivots (South Stream Pipeline) towards Istanbul with a planned Gaz hub on the Turkic/Grecco border...

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-visit-turkey-amid-syria-differences-080417276.html

Putin added a sweetener, saying that Russia will offer a 6 percent price discount for its gas supplies to Turkey starting next year and could offer an even better deal if the two countries reach an agreement on deeper energy cooperation.

Turkey already is a major importer of Russian gas, coming second only to Germany. In addition to gas, Russia will invest $20 billion in a contract to build Turkey's first nuclear power plant.

Turkey, a NATO-member which is vying for European Union membership, also has been keen to increase food and other exports to Russia, which has banned most western food imports in retaliation for the U.S. and the EU economic sanctions.

Turkish construction firms are active in Russia while millions of Russian tourists travel to Turkey each year.

The two countries, who are major trading partners, reaffirmed their determination to increase their two-way trade volume from $33 billion to $100 billion by the 2020s.


Brilliant strategy really - undermine NATO and EU sanctions by back dooring the EU via a strategically located NATO member.

I would call that Check and Mate Russia vs the West and a win win for both Russia and Turkey.  Money talks and big money talks the loudest.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on December 03, 2014, 03:19:33 PM
Even Turkey Booming - before today's Russia pivot!

With Russia and Ukraine mired in economic hara-kiri there is a platinum lining with Georgia and Turkey...

Turkish businessman: “Our business grew 300% last year. A disaster, really.”
by Andrew Henderson | Nov 28, 2014

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/11/28/turkish-businessman-business-grew-300-last-year-disaster-really/

However, Istanbul has taken a little different approach. There are a few of the nonsensical buildings placed in bad areas to be sold to foreigners. Areas like Esenyurt, where “low-profile immigrants” live, have been targeted by developers as some “next big thing” when the reality is the area has a few serious problems.

But there are other rising suburban areas on the European side of Istanbul that offer an interesting value proposition: a nice mix of yield and the potential for capital appreciation.

While I’m not as gung ho about the capital appreciation part as the locals, you must admit that, just like the Chinese impact on Asian property markets, wealthy Qataris, Jordanians, and even Pakistanis are leaving their mark on the Istanbul property market.
I’ve been meeting with a few colleagues during my time in Istanbul and the message everywhere is the same: the need for a “safe haven” for Middle Easterners is huge.


As I frequently say, wealthy people from the emerging world have a much better sense of the need for internationalization than so-called wealthy people from the developed world.
The Qatari with a few million bucks may love living in Doha, but he also realizes that the place could fall apart one day. Or that oil will eventually run out. Or that governments are always capable of going crazy.

Having a safe haven that is a few hours’ flight away is a sensible strategy for him, the same way Americans having a safe haven in Panama, for instance, is a sound strategy to get paid while you prepare for madness at home.

(We’ll be covering a lot about Panama at this year’s Passport to Freedom event in Cancun.)

In fact, while for years the rest of the world catered to the US tourist, business owners here in Istanbul are frothing over their chance to lap up more of the Middle Eastern market.
One guy I rode around with on Thursday told me “our business is up 300% this year.” That would seem to be an excellent growth rate for a company with 150 employees, until he winced and said that such growth was “a disaster, really”, noting his more aggressive goal was 1,000% top line revenue growth.

I don’t know many established western companies complaining that they missed their year-over-year goal to grow ten-fold.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 04, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
http://www.mail.com/int/business/markets/3240274-western-sanctions-ruble-crash-hit-russians-hard.html#.1258-stage-hero1-6

Thanks for the laugh, NS1 

"Western sanctions, ruble crash hit Russians hard"

An image speaks louder than 1000 lies words: illustration which "proves" the above is that of a lady in 10.000 USD fur coat, checking out the 5000+ USD designer dress...
Нам бы так жить!

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 04, 2014, 05:48:16 AM
http://www.mail.com/int/business/markets/3240274-western-sanctions-ruble-crash-hit-russians-hard.html#.1258-stage-hero1-6

Thanks for the laugh, NS1 

"Western sanctions, ruble crash hit Russians hard"

An image speaks louder than 1000 lies words: illustration which "proves" the above is that of a lady in 10.000 USD fur coat, checking out the 5000+ USD designer dress...
Нам бы так жить!


 ;D ;D ;D

Нет!

Think of how many dead animals she wears :(
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 04, 2014, 08:26:36 AM
http://www.mail.com/int/business/markets/3240274-western-sanctions-ruble-crash-hit-russians-hard.html#.1258-stage-hero1-6

Thanks for the laugh, NS1 

"Western sanctions, ruble crash hit Russians hard"

An image speaks louder than 1000 lies words: illustration which "proves" the above is that of a lady in 10.000 USD fur coat, checking out the 5000+ USD designer dress...
Нам бы так жить!


 ;D ;D ;D

Нет!

Think of how many dead animals she wears :(

Sharon, i am afraid that argument is lost in Russia, with men and women alike... And it's not that it's all that cold, i mean, i don't wear fur and i survived, but don't even open the subject there. (And don't even hint to my mother that it's kinda cruel to wear норковая шуба  :-X )
Anyway, you must admit - the pic is very much like some Vogue cover (Devil wears Prada Anna Wintour does wear fur) and, thus, probably antipodal to recession.  :knit:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on December 04, 2014, 09:44:46 AM
http://www.mail.com/int/business/markets/3240274-western-sanctions-ruble-crash-hit-russians-hard.html#.1258-stage-hero1-6

Thanks for the laugh, NS1 

"Western sanctions, ruble crash hit Russians hard"

An image speaks louder than 1000 lies words: illustration which "proves" the above is that of a lady in 10.000 USD fur coat, checking out the 5000+ USD designer dress...
Нам бы так жить!

 ;D ;D ;D
There is 5 photos with the story, I thought it interesting, I posted it. I have never been to Moscow, so have no idea.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 04, 2014, 10:13:33 AM
NS1, lol, now i get your tactic on battling the opponent! It's a sub-kind of Blitzkrieg to throw us into confusion!  ;D

(I replied in the other thread: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21576.msg388825;topicseen#msg388825
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: 2tallbill on December 04, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
Putin: Russian Business Should Be Freed From Obsessive Control
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20141204/1015484245.html

In my opinion, Putin is attempting to remove some of the layers of graft, bribes etc
that burden most businesses in Russia. In my opinion this would stimulate the
Russian economy like nothing else possible.

What are your thoughts after reading the article? 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 04, 2014, 12:11:11 PM
edited (temp. post)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MrMann on December 05, 2014, 02:38:39 AM
In theory it sounds like a good thing. Diversification of the Russian economy is crucial to the country's future success, and it lags behind many other countries when it comes to small and medium-sized businesses.

The real test will be whether or not Putin really means it and if those policy changes are actually carried out in a way that genuinely improves the conditions for entrepreneurs and business owners.

There's an interesting article on this very subject by Yury Pronko, an award-winning Russian financial journalist, from a couple of days ago: http://ruspolitics.ru/article/read/rossija---strana-upucshennyh-vozmozhnostej.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 07, 2014, 03:15:32 AM
First bit of sense i have read for a while

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30278606

Spark, an excellent article (whether one agrees with it or not), thank for sharing! I searched some info on the author:
Anatol Lieven is a British author, Orwell Prize-winning journalist, and policy analyst. He is a Senior Researcher at the New America Foundation, where he focuses on US global strategy and the War on Terrorism, Associated Scholar of the Anatol Lieven is the third son a Alexander Lieven of the Baltic German princely family, tracing ancestry to Liv chieftain Kaupo...
(adopted from wiki)
It's not a surprise then that  both the analyzes and his writing style are outstanding.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 07, 2014, 04:05:18 AM
A bit of a shame that the writer castigates Russia for attempting to bring Ukraine into the Eurasian Union when in fact they were, as the writer says already supporting Ukraine. Russia did nothing 'extra' in respect of Ukraine. The writer does not note that there were no strings or preconditions to the loans and grants made by Russia.

The writer does not point out that the suggestions in respect of the Eurasian Union were merely a continuation of business as usual, nor that joining did not preclude dealing with the EU whereas the EU made it clear that EU association (not membership) could not take place in a universe where Ukraine's huge and important trade with Eurasia continued. These 'misdirections' lead to flaws in the writer's conclusions - garbage in = garbage out.

The tenor of the article is to shift blame toward Russia when in truth, the writer already knows the reasons for the collapse of Ukraine and the direction of the impetus.

This is a well written article however it is intentionally misleading because I am sure that the writer knows these the points I mentioned above.

Much of the propagandist untruthiness that we read or hear at the moment is badly created or created for access at the lowest common denominator. A well written piece tends to fly under the radar because its style and content are more acceptable to its readers than the lcd rubbish. We welcome the opportunity to not be insulted by what we read. That does not lessen the dishonesty of the content or message.

Writing the foregoing is made harder for me because this article is about the first I have seen that mentions, for example, the difference in type of the exports Ukraine makes to Russia - an important issue that I mentioned months ago and which is not understood by most apologists for the US/EU overthrow in Ukraine. He also notes, correctly, that the Donbass region needs to be given autonomy in a substantive fashion - an obvious point ignored by most EU/US supporting writers.

It would have been helpful, for the perspective of context, if the author had noted that Russia has been consistent and clear about what Ukraine needs and what Russia wants from its neigbour: An independent, viable state where the rights of its citizens are guaranteed by law and practice and where the economy is strong enough to pay its bills. The continuing support by Russia of Ukraine indicates in a practical fashion those desires contrasted with the inputs from the EU and US who have been working very hard to ensure that these ordinary and realistic options are NOT available to the Ukrainian people and NOT put into practice.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 07, 2014, 04:13:50 AM

This is a well written article however it is intentionally misleading because I am sure that the writer knows these the points I mentioned above.

Agreed  :) But we must admit that they are putting much more effort into anti-propaganda than they used to, and i really respect that.
Andrew, when i read posts like this one that you've written, i kinda regret you didn't sell it to those very newspapers... On the other hand, you are gaining "karma coins" by speaking the truth for anyone who'd read, so  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 07, 2014, 04:28:42 AM
Thanks!  :( Sadly though I lack the route to market for these things and, frankly, given that it took all of 5 or 10 minutes to write it does not have much value to me.

And yes, somebody is stepping up their game a little.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 03:06:16 AM
A survey among the Russian public about the allegation of Russian troops in Ukraine.

http://www.levada.ru/eng/volunteer-fighters

And a survey on Crimea.

http://www.levada.ru/eng/crimea

As for the first survey I would say "it is difficult to say" because I simply don't know what is going on there, and not because I'm not interested.

As for the second: "because otherwise Crimean people could have been subjected to violence by Ukrainian right-wing radicals" - that sounds quite possible. But on the other hand I saw some reports here of Russian troops riding businesses across the peninsula, who have been subjected to violence by Russian gangs troops.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 03:22:25 AM
As for the first survey I would say "it is difficult to say" because I simply don't know what is going on there, and not because I'm not interested.

As for the second: "because otherwise Crimean people could have been subjected to violence by Ukrainian right-wing radicals" - that sounds quite possible. But on the other hand I saw some reports here of Russian troops riding businesses across the peninsula, who have been subjected to violence by Russian gangs troops.

1. I haven't met a single Russian who was against unification (from hundreds of people i interacted with in the same period when the survey was conducted.)
2. After the initial excitement about the unification, i've heard many complaints - that refugees from Crimea are being positively discriminated, that they are overtaking jobs etc.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 03:23:50 AM
Putin: Talking to Russia from position of strength is meaningless
[Bill's note: don't worry Obama never will]


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 03:34:57 AM
As for the first survey I would say "it is difficult to say" because I simply don't know what is going on there, and not because I'm not interested.

As for the second: "because otherwise Crimean people could have been subjected to violence by Ukrainian right-wing radicals" - that sounds quite possible. But on the other hand I saw some reports here of Russian troops riding businesses across the peninsula, who have been subjected to violence by Russian gangs troops.

1. I haven't met a single Russian who was against unification (from hundreds of people i interacted with in the same period when the survey was conducted.)
2. After the initial excitement about the unification, i've heard many complaints - that refugees from Crimea are being positively discriminated, that they are overtaking jobs etc.

That's not clear to me. Who they are (Tatars?), from whom they were escaped and why, and where do they live now?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 03:53:36 AM
As for the first survey I would say "it is difficult to say" because I simply don't know what is going on there, and not because I'm not interested.

As for the second: "because otherwise Crimean people could have been subjected to violence by Ukrainian right-wing radicals" - that sounds quite possible. But on the other hand I saw some reports here of Russian troops riding businesses across the peninsula, who have been subjected to violence by Russian gangs troops.

1. I haven't met a single Russian who was against unification (from hundreds of people i interacted with in the same period when the survey was conducted.)
2. After the initial excitement about the unification, i've heard many complaints - that refugees from Crimea are being positively discriminated, that they are overtaking jobs etc.

That's not clear to me. Who they are (Tatars?), from whom they were escaped and why, and where do they live now?

Russians from Crimea who moved to mainland.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 04:20:51 AM
As for the first survey I would say "it is difficult to say" because I simply don't know what is going on there, and not because I'm not interested.

As for the second: "because otherwise Crimean people could have been subjected to violence by Ukrainian right-wing radicals" - that sounds quite possible. But on the other hand I saw some reports here of Russian troops riding businesses across the peninsula, who have been subjected to violence by Russian gangs troops.

1. I haven't met a single Russian who was against unification (from hundreds of people i interacted with in the same period when the survey was conducted.)
2. After the initial excitement about the unification, i've heard many complaints - that refugees from Crimea are being positively discriminated, that they are overtaking jobs etc.

That's not clear to me. Who they are (Tatars?), from whom they were escaped and why, and where do they live now?

Russians from Crimea who moved to mainland.

So "refugees" is not the right word, is it? Did they move before the occupation or afterward? 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 04:35:39 AM
As for the first survey I would say "it is difficult to say" because I simply don't know what is going on there, and not because I'm not interested.

As for the second: "because otherwise Crimean people could have been subjected to violence by Ukrainian right-wing radicals" - that sounds quite possible. But on the other hand I saw some reports here of Russian troops riding businesses across the peninsula, who have been subjected to violence by Russian gangs troops.

1. I haven't met a single Russian who was against unification (from hundreds of people i interacted with in the same period when the survey was conducted.)
2. After the initial excitement about the unification, i've heard many complaints - that refugees from Crimea are being positively discriminated, that they are overtaking jobs etc.

That's not clear to me. Who they are (Tatars?), from whom they were escaped and why, and where do they live now?

Russians from Crimea who moved to mainland.

So "refugees" is not the right word, is it? Did they move before the occupation or afterward?

That would be the literal translation from Russian, it is the right word. Not sure to what you refer as occupation though.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 04:53:43 AM
That would be the literal translation from Russian, it is the right word. Not sure to what you refer as occupation though.

Since this discussion is in English, refugee is: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

Occupation: the action, state, or period of occupying or being occupied by military force.

i.e. the action of taking over territory by force.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 04:58:59 AM
That would be the literal translation from Russian, it is the right word. Not sure to what you refer as occupation though.

Since this discussion is in English, refugee is: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

Occupation: the action, state, or period of occupying or being occupied by military force.

i.e. the action of taking over territory by force.   

I think  that in the given context you might have confused the terms "occupation" and "re-unification".

unification
[yoo-nuh-fi-key-shuh n] 
noun

the process of unifying or uniting; union:
the unification of the 13 original colonies.

Whatever  :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 05:28:13 AM
That would be the literal translation from Russian, it is the right word. Not sure to what you refer as occupation though.

Since this discussion is in English, refugee is: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

Occupation: the action, state, or period of occupying or being occupied by military force.

i.e. the action of taking over territory by force.   

I think  that in the given context you might have confused the terms "occupation" and "re-unification".

unification
[yoo-nuh-fi-key-shuh n] 
noun

the process of unifying or uniting; union:
the unification of the 13 original colonies.

Whatever  :)

No. I refer to the action of a government taking over territory from neighbor country by using force.

Whatever you call it, it doesn't change the fact that the region was given to Ukraine in 1991. And now they reclaim it back by force. If you give something to someone, it means you shall not reclaim it back later. Minos by using force.

Besides, tell it to the tourists that abandoned the resorts. Even much of those who visited the last summer stated they will not return. So there your "re-unification" goes...   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 05:38:32 AM


No. I refer to the action of a government taking over territory from neighbor country by using force.

Whatever you call it, it doesn't change the fact that the region was given to Ukraine in 1991. And now they reclaim it back by force. If you give something to someone, it means you shall not reclaim it back later. Minos by using force.

Besides, tell it to the tourists that abandoned the resorts. Even much of those who visited the last summer stated they will not return. So there your "re-unification" goes...   

The logical fallacies in the above text make any further comment unnecessary.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 05:46:43 AM


No. I refer to the action of a government taking over territory from neighbor country by using force.

Whatever you call it, it doesn't change the fact that the region was given to Ukraine in 1991. And now they reclaim it back by force. If you give something to someone, it means you shall not reclaim it back later. Minos by using force.

Besides, tell it to the tourists that abandoned the resorts. Even much of those who visited the last summer stated they will not return. So there your "re-unification" goes...   

The logical fallacies in the above text make any further comment unnecessary.

That is an arrogant comment.

Would be more appropriate to provide reference to support your claims. But I don't expect it. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 06:04:52 AM


No. I refer to the action of a government taking over territory from neighbor country by using force.

Whatever you call it, it doesn't change the fact that the region was given to Ukraine in 1991. And now they reclaim it back by force. If you give something to someone, it means you shall not reclaim it back later. Minos by using force.

Besides, tell it to the tourists that abandoned the resorts. Even much of those who visited the last summer stated they will not return. So there your "re-unification" goes...   

The logical fallacies in the above text make any further comment unnecessary.

That is an arrogant comment.

Sharon, my take on the situation differs from that which is held by some on this forum, which does not mean i don't like and respect them, or the other way around, no? A statement can be presumptuous, which doesn't mean i am, and i can dislike an opinion, while i like the person who posts it. (I thought that goes without saying.)

ETA: given that you edited your post - the same goes for you, my friend: Would be more appropriate to provide reference to support your claims. But I don't expect it.   :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 06:18:42 AM
Sharon, my take on the situation differs from that which is held by some on this forum, which does not mean i don't like and respect them, or the other way around, no? A statement can be presumptuous, which doesn't mean i am, and i can dislike an opinion, while i like the person who posts it. (I thought that goes without saying.)

Volshe,
Usually I form an opinion based on the information that is available for me at the moment. You definitely know better than me about the history and the complexity of the region. Perhaps if I new what you know, we would not differ in opinions.
If you find contradiction or inaccuracy in my comment above, you are welcome to enlighten me (by posting link to articles, reference and the like).   

ETA: given that you edited your post - the same goes for you, my friend: Would be more appropriate to provide reference to support your claims. But I don't expect it.   :)

No. I'm here to learn. Go head :)

(I mostly relay on the materials who shared here by members)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 06:30:23 AM
Sharon, my take on the situation differs from that which is held by some on this forum, which does not mean i don't like and respect them, or the other way around, no? A statement can be presumptuous, which doesn't mean i am, and i can dislike an opinion, while i like the person who posts it. (I thought that goes without saying.)

Volshe,
Usually I form an opinion based on the information that is available for me at the moment. You definitely know better than me about the history and the complexity of the region. Perhaps if I new what you know, we would not differ in opinions.
If you find contradiction or inaccuracy in my comment above, you are welcome to enlighten me (by posting link to articles, reference and the like).

Sharon, i think we are all equally (dis)informed.  I've posted it before - i do not think that facts convince anyone, after all there are very few Socrates on this board (and i am certainly not one.) We find facts which suit our pre-held opinions, and the latter are formed by personal preferences.
I realize that many of you have ties with Ukraine, which influences your take on the situation, and ditto that my view is influenced by my own ties to Russia. It's pretty clear that i won't change your opinion, even if i conducted a phd-worth research and shared it with you.
(Even that, a phd-worth research, would be a part of some paradigm, and paradigm is nothing else but summary of opinions of people who agreed to agree.)
If you and i can discuss things from different perspectives impersonally - good, if not, i choose to have a friend.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 07:02:39 AM
Sharon, my take on the situation differs from that which is held by some on this forum, which does not mean i don't like and respect them, or the other way around, no? A statement can be presumptuous, which doesn't mean i am, and i can dislike an opinion, while i like the person who posts it. (I thought that goes without saying.)

Volshe,
Usually I form an opinion based on the information that is available for me at the moment. You definitely know better than me about the history and the complexity of the region. Perhaps if I new what you know, we would not differ in opinions.
If you find contradiction or inaccuracy in my comment above, you are welcome to enlighten me (by posting link to articles, reference and the like).

My comments in red:

Sharon, i think we are all equally (dis)informed.
 
Not sure. My only source of information comes from here. 

I've posted it before - i do not think that facts convince anyone,

Perhaps I'm an exception. Some stuff who is shared here shifted my perception. 

 after all there are very few Socrates on this board (and i am certainly not one.) We find facts which suit our pre-held opinions, and the latter are formed by personal preferences.

I don't have pre-held opinions. I wanna know the truth, believe it or not.

I realize that many of you have ties with Ukraine, which influences your take on the situation, and ditto that my view is influenced by my own ties to Russia.

Fortunately I'm not one of them.

It's pretty clear that i won't change your opinion, even if i conducted a phd-worth research and shared it with you.

Why not? If we are not open minded how can we learn? Can be different opinions but still facts are facts, not opinions.

(Even that, a phd-worth research, would be a part of some paradigm, and paradigm is nothing else but summary of opinions of people who agreed to agree.)
If you and i can discuss things from different perspectives impersonally - good, if not, i choose to have a friend.

My perspective is influenced by the given information. Unlike many here I don't have a tendency to support one side against the other. I definitely don't put emotions in it or like/dislike someone because of different opinions. 

My take on the events is as suggested by some articles and videos that the west put legs to trigger the so called revolution in Ukraine by supporting extremist and neo Nazis groups.

Putin took Krim to secure access to the Black Sea so it won't fall to the USA/Nato Kiev junta.

The indiscriminate shelling of civilian population in eastern Ukraine by the Kiev army is a crime.

The fact that neo Nazis groups gained power in Ukraine under the new regime is unbearable.

Gun men in the streets of Simferopol and Russian troops riding businesses in Krim is not quite understood.

Tourists abandoned the resorts in the peninsula perhaps because they don't feel safe. If the majority of the population welcoming it and think it's good, why isn't it safe for the tourists?     
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 07:32:48 AM
Ok then  :)

According to UN International Court ruling of July 22, 2010,  pursuant to Article 2, Chapter 1 of the United Nations Charter: "General international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence."

Crimeans voted to join Russia in referendum. Russia officially recognized the results of the Crimean referendum on the base of Kosovo-precedent.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 07:43:25 AM
Ok then  :)

According to UN International Court ruling of July 22, 2010,  pursuant to Article 2, Chapter 1 of the United Nations Charter: "General international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence."

Crimeans voted to join Russia in referendum. Russia officially recognized the results of the Crimean referendum on the base of Kosovo-precedent.

No problem. My claim is against some aggression of Russian authorities/troops towards some people and businesses. At least this is what has been reported by some sources who shared here. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 07:52:42 AM
Ok then  :)

According to UN International Court ruling of July 22, 2010,  pursuant to Article 2, Chapter 1 of the United Nations Charter: "General international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence."

Crimeans voted to join Russia in referendum. Russia officially recognized the results of the Crimean referendum on the base of Kosovo-precedent.

No problem. My claim is against some aggression of Russian authorities/troops towards some people and businesses. At least this is what has been reported by some sources who shared here.

That i've heard too. Not being there, i can't claim with certainty, but knowing what was going on here - sadly, it wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 10, 2014, 09:18:50 AM
Perhaps those who are making these claims might want to share just who the targets are.  let me help with one: Privatbank,  owned by a thief and murderer by the name of Kolmoisky.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on December 10, 2014, 09:28:33 AM
A survey among the Russian public about the allegation of Russian troops in Ukraine.

http://www.levada.ru/eng/volunteer-fighters

And a survey on Crimea.

http://www.levada.ru/eng/crimea

The survay is flawed. There are ten percent of the population in Crimea are tarters and they are surely unhappy with being in Russia.  Then there are gays and Ukrainains that Russian is a second language to are also not as happy. The hand picked a part of the population that did not include them and others that would not be happy with Russia if they even bothered to collected any data at all. I understand that in Russia most people do not believe their troops are in Ukraine but try taking that survay in Lugansk where everybody knows the Russians army is involved.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on December 10, 2014, 09:29:49 AM
Ok then  :)

According to UN International Court ruling of July 22, 2010,  pursuant to Article 2, Chapter 1 of the United Nations Charter: "General international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence."

Crimeans voted to join Russia in referendum. Russia officially recognized the results of the Crimean referendum on the base of Kosovo-precedent.

No problem. My claim is against some aggression of Russian authorities/troops towards some people and businesses. At least this is what has been reported by some sources who shared here.

That i've heard too. Not being there, i can't claim with certainty, but knowing what was going on here - sadly, it wouldn't surprise me.

Well, I actually was there...

Non of the current situation happened while I was there. At least not something I witnessed.

https://plus.google.com/photos/117391214649148756630/albums/5464426477545585825?banner=pwa

Congrats to the Krim population for the unification. Now they have the fair share of rights and being screwed duties :nod:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 10, 2014, 09:30:43 AM
A survey among the Russian public about the allegation of Russian troops in Ukraine.

http://www.levada.ru/eng/volunteer-fighters

And a survey on Crimea.

http://www.levada.ru/eng/crimea

The survay is flawed. There are ten percent of the population in Crimea are tarters and they are surely unhappy with being in Russia.  Then there are gays and Ukrainains that Russian is a second language to are also not as happy. The hand picked a part of the population that did not include them and others that would not be happy with Russia if they even bothered to collected any data at all. I understand that in Russia most people do not believe their troops are in Ukraine but try taking that survay in Lugansk where everybody knows the Russians army is involved.

How is the survey flawed? It is among Russians in Russia; not Russian exclaves like Crimea.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on December 10, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
Yea no body in Russia think Crimea should not be part of Russia. What is new about this?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 10, 2014, 10:00:23 AM
Yea no body in Russia think Crimea should not be part of Russia. What is new about this?

Penny dropped has it? Wipe the egg off your chin. Better to read it and the source next time before leaping in with your propaganda.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 11:09:10 AM
Perhaps those who are making these claims might want to share just who the targets are.  let me help with one: Privatbank,  owned by a thief and murderer by the name of Kolmoisky.

Meh, various stories going around, and i normally don't engage in hearsay. I usually argue about things i do know ;)


The survay is flawed. There are ten percent of the population in Crimea are tarters and they are surely unhappy with being in Russia.  Then there are gays and Ukrainains that Russian is a second language to are also not as happy. The hand picked a part of the population that did not include them and others that would not be happy with Russia if they even bothered to collected any data at all. I understand that in Russia most people do not believe their troops are in Ukraine but try taking that survay in Lugansk where everybody knows the Russians army is involved.

Is that plural of tart, as in baked pastry base with a filling over?

Congrats to the Krim population for the unification. Now they have the fair share of rights and being screwed duties :nod:

Congrats indeed. True, as it is they have  fair share of rights and a chance to be screwed, as it's the situation with all of us; as it was - they wouldn't have any rights and would be certainly screwed.
That being said, the part of population you captured on the photos, does come across as  beautiful, happy and thriving ;)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on December 10, 2014, 11:12:14 AM
Yea no body in Russia think Crimea should not be part of Russia. What is new about this?

Penny dropped has it? Wipe the egg off your chin. Better to read it and the source next time before leaping in with your propaganda.

It seemed a few went over 100%, I presume they were aloud more than one answer?
Also looked on a few questions, answer was not sure, this normally indicated, they don't know
or not up to date on issues.

I have never been to Russia, maybe a good question or questions.
How many Russian's are up to date on current events such as these?
How much of this is even a concern to the average Russian?
Considering the average person in Russia or most countries for that matter are trying to just survive.
I know here, the number one response to government polls over issues in last few years.
Is Jobs and economy. How much is this the same or different in Russia?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on December 10, 2014, 11:23:42 AM

I have never been to Russia, maybe a good question or questions.
How many Russian's are up to date on current events such as these?
How much of this is even a concern to the average Russian?
Considering the average person in Russia or most countries for that matter are trying to just survive.
I know here, the number one response to government polls over issues in last few years.
Is Jobs and economy. How much is this the same or different in Russia?

NS1, it matters to the extent that i am sort of glad i am at home right now, i couldn't stomach it anymore for it was like living through for 2nd time what was here... Not that they care, they are obsessed.
As strongly as i support Russia, i am not an idiot and do not idealize their politics, i bet part of it is done deliberately to avert questions from what is equally important.
As per your question - traditionally, work is somewhere at fifth place (or bellow) in Russian system of value, that's acc. to serious books and serious researches. The attitude to work (and thus, to jobs and economy) in USA is quite  influenced by Protestantism, Russians in the majority (same like us mind you) are more influenced by Eastern philosophy - you work a lot, you are not doing what you are supposed to do OR you are doing it wrong.
There are many initiatives currently to put together what they perceive as the spirit of Christian Orthodoxy with entrepreneurship.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 10, 2014, 12:38:28 PM
Also looked on a few questions, answer was not sure, this normally indicated, they don't know
or not up to date on issues.

How is "not sure" not up to date? Not the same thing.

I am up to date on UK politics, we have a general election next year. I like Farage, but will he make a good PM? The honest answer is "not sure". But he wont win anyway. Milliband? No chance he will be a good PM even though (god help us) he may win. Cameron? He is no Thatcher but he is trying, but needs to grow a pair.

Point being, "not sure" doesn't mean "have no clue".
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on December 10, 2014, 01:43:05 PM
Also looked on a few questions, answer was not sure, this normally indicated, they don't know
or not up to date on issues.

How is "not sure" not up to date? Not the same thing.

I am up to date on UK politics, we have a general election next year. I like Farage, but will he make a good PM? The honest answer is "not sure". But he wont win anyway. Milliband? No chance he will be a good PM even though (god help us) he may win. Cameron? He is no Thatcher but he is trying, but needs to grow a pair.

Point being, "not sure" doesn't mean "have no clue".
I realize that, but as you will admit, many locals in your country or mine, don't care and don't have a clue about many current
topics, politics, international events, etc.
One of my questions was, how up to date is the average Russian?
Same as here, more so, less so? this was out of genuine curiosity.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 30, 2014, 03:52:04 PM
Cuffy, where do you get the idea Russia supports ISIS?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Beemer on January 03, 2015, 04:42:53 PM
AKMike.
Your theory entirely falls apart where Russia is about to build a bridge that avoids the Ukraine but joins Russia with Crimea.
And guess who wants to build a real iron curtain between the countries and place medium range nukes in the vassal states surrounding Russia. Hmmmm.
Then compare the actions of USa when Cuba had a couple.  :-X
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lets talk money and Russia's export market comparing their to cash inwards.
Only oil has dropped in price and the rouble has fell in line, ~50%.
So extraction costs are halved in dollars
Oil is 60% of the export market.. Therefore roubles are about the same per barrel but the international value is 30%.
ok so far?

The other exports, (40%) are stable to the dollar, so the rouble value is doubled. (80%)
ok, lets add all the income in the rouble/wage/cost value. 30% + 80%... The effective income in roubles is greater than its devaluation. The rouble is artificially oversold !!!

But wait, there's much more!

Russia's export order books are now bursting at the seams. Military, nuke reactors and oil/gas pipeline deals plus supply deals.

Brent crude, US shale oil, Canadian tar sands and every fracking company for gas are now junk stock.
All the western self reliance on energy is going to the wall and their currency will need to be exported. Or more  bonds will have to be accepted by the vassal states. Adding to the $18TN debts + UK's debts (Brent crude) and so on..

Saudi is not attacking Russia. Its smashing the ability of other nations to be self sufficient. Russia is offering to help Cuba get more oil out of its shores... Then wonder why "sanctions don't work" O'Bomber throws in an olive branch. lol

Russia has a "Black Swan". Their loans to the US for funding the oil exploration is about the same as the required cash input for all the US banks put together. If Russia says. "Nah! I'll pay you another year when the rouble has recovered some"... This will literally bankrupt the banks in this financial year!

It will be 2008 x10. A run on the dollar. No new loans. no money leaving, no bills paid, no trust in the banks, the US will print money. Devalues... Not a good currency to trade with.

Then China with $1.5TN on current account dollar bonds and Russia with >$400M (and both gold heavy) will call them on their gold reserves. About five countries are still waiting for their own gold back. Germany is over a barrel on this
Then China will call on eminent domain. The US's physical stocks and chattels will be taken.

To top it all off. If Putin says enough is enough. No NATO country using warlike actions to us will receive gas, the taps are off already. You have days to decide but act now.
Heating and electric supplies will soon be down. This will divisively force the allegiances of NATO countries one way or another. Scary gambit. At this rate it will be.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Beemer on January 04, 2015, 12:35:39 AM
............... but try taking that survay in Lugansk where everybody knows the Russians army is involved.

I know Canadian army guys working with the Kurds. They are not paid by Canada. When will McCain start attacking Canada for taking out "his boys"?

My day was made when I found out Britains most wanted terrorist, the "White Widow" was hit by a Russian sniper fighting for the rebels. They said she died a slow and painful death.  :party0011: :party0031: :thumbsup: tiphat :ROFL:

(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2297493.ece/alternates/s1023/Passport-used-by-Lewthwaite-to-travel-into-South-Africa-with-the-name-Natalie-Faye-Webb.jpg)

I'm a firm believer in any region that wants to change allegiances to be allowed to do so. The Falklands voted, Crimea voted, Kosovo voted (after the Serbian majority were reduced).. Now we know why Russia has 260,000 women and children fled from Ukraine seeking asylum and no US citizen gives a monkeys cuss over the humanitarian problems they created ... sick!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on January 17, 2015, 06:49:27 AM
Interesting view from a small faction in EU, the pirate party. Its leader said:

http://falkvinge.net/2015/01/17/putins-unreported-genius-on-ukraine-currency-warfare/

Having met him for work, i can only say his views (didn't have time to read this one yet, will do later in the day, in general) are very interesting and worth pondering on. Small faction, but quite influential, mind you.  :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sparky114 on January 17, 2015, 09:50:20 AM
Interesting view from a small faction in EU, the pirate party. Its leader said:

http://falkvinge.net/2015/01/17/putins-unreported-genius-on-ukraine-currency-warfare/

Interesting, i had read about the unexplained death of the Total CEO after his dumbing down of the petrodollar, and yes as i see it Total are trading outside of the reserve currency these days

Maybe he is right that the writing is on the wall....time will tell :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 17, 2015, 10:17:09 AM
Interesting view from a small faction in EU, the pirate party. Its leader said:

http://falkvinge.net/2015/01/17/putins-unreported-genius-on-ukraine-currency-warfare/

Having met him for work, i can only say his views (didn't have time to read this one yet, will do later in the day, in general) are very interesting and worth pondering on. Small faction, but quite influential, mind you.  :)

The article was interesting, one of those where one can agree with almost every point except the overarching point of the piece.

Frankly, I rather doubt that Putin planned what happened in Ukraine as a stepping stone toward the goal of enabling a multi-polar world order. That requires a level of complexity that is simply not plannable and everything I know tells me that whilst it is almost certain the the Crimea case had been gamed out years before the choice to implement was a reaction to external events and not proactive. The Novorossia thing, I am sure, was not gamed through at all. However if the guy were to suggest that the situation as it stands is being played out with an eye on the eventual goals then I'd say 'of course it is' there's no other way to play it.

That's kinda like a well made business plan: one sets out the plan with some clear and measurable goals, once that is done EVERY decision taken is taken with an eye to the service of those goals. That's one of the benefits of long term planning and, IMHO, a difference between the US and Russia - in leadership terms at least.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on January 17, 2015, 10:55:25 AM
Interesting view from a small faction in EU, the pirate party. Its leader said:

http://falkvinge.net/2015/01/17/putins-unreported-genius-on-ukraine-currency-warfare/

Having met him for work, i can only say his views (didn't have time to read this one yet, will do later in the day, in general) are very interesting and worth pondering on. Small faction, but quite influential, mind you.  :)

The article was interesting, one of those where one can agree with almost every point except the overarching point of the piece.


I'll read it, promise  :BLUSH: (But, somehow, i think i'll agree with your opinion... anyway, let me attend to sth and will do asap ;))
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on January 24, 2015, 01:16:56 PM
Ukraine, Novorossiya/NAF, DPR, LPR/LNR
« Reply #126 on: January 20, 2015, 09:19:57 AM »
QuoteAdd Multi Quote
There's a Western Financial Attack on Russia Underway

Regarding oil price fall, the jury is out. Some say this is an action by the Saudis aimed at American fracking companies, or alternatively a Saudi-American plot against Russia. However, the price of oil is not formed by supply-and-demand, but by financial instruments, futures and derivatives. This virtual demand-and-supply is much bigger than the real one. When hedge funds stopped buying oil futures, the price downturn became unavoidable, but were the funds directed by politicians, or did they act so because Quantitative Easing ended?

The steep fall of the rouble could be connected to the oil price downturn, but not necessarily so. The Rouble is not involved in forming oil prices. It could be an action by a very big financial institution. Soros broke the back of the British pound in 1991; the Korean won, Thai bhat and Malaysian ringgit suffered similar fates in 1998. In each case, the attacked country lost about 40% of its GDP. It is possible that Russia was attacked by financial weapons directed from New York as directed by the Global British Financial Empire and lead wall street investor/owners in London UK.


http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/01/19/2550

Replies and discussion here please.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: krassavchick on January 24, 2015, 03:24:30 PM
Wow, It really couldn't have landed much closer than that.  I'm sure the driver is feeling blessed.

Not a valid youtube URL
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on January 24, 2015, 04:42:17 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-european-dream-is-dying-state-by-state-2015-1

The European Dream Is Dying State By State
BRUNO WATERFIELD, THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
JAN. 24, 2015, 8:22 AM

Europe is being swept by a wave of popular disenchantment and revolt against mainstream political parties and the European Union.

In 2007, a majority of Europeans — 52 per cent — trusted the EU. That trust has now fallen to 35 per cent.

Once, Britain's Euroscpeticism was the exception, and seen as the biggest threat to the future of the EU.

But now other countries pose a far bigger danger thanks to the political discontents unleashed by the euro.

In Greece, a far-Left Socialist party, Syriza, is poised to win elections with a political programme that would overturn eurozone policies. Many believe the Greek revolt against the loss of their economic sovereignty by eurozone diktat from Brussels or Frankfurt is only the beginning.

In France, Italy and Spain, voters are kicking against mainstream parties that they see as upholding EU institutions such as the euro while failing to represent their own people, the voters.

In Britain, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Denmark it is immigration that has become the touchstone for a popular sense that institutions do not represent them.

Even in Germany the cracks in the European political order are beginning to show.

There are plenty of opportunities for revolt: parliamentary elections take place in Greece, Britain, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Poland, Portugal and Spain. Early elections are also expected in Italy.

It might be too early to call this the death of European unity.

But the outlook for what Winston Churchill prophetically called a "United States of Europe" has never been stormier.

This article was written by Bruno Waterfield from The Daily Telegraph and was legally licensed through the NewsCred publisher network.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-european-dream-is-dying-state-by-state-2015-1#ixzz3PmkwhutG
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on January 25, 2015, 12:32:53 PM
http://www.1tv.ru/

Don't know how long this item will remain front-page, but the current item is talking about the attack on Mariupol.

Noteworthy according to 1tv.ru is that the soldiers of the Ukrainian army cannot speak russian but only English.

SAS or MI6 training officers perhaps :GOUK: :uaflag: :GOUK: :uaflag:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: 2tallbill on January 26, 2015, 11:11:58 AM
http://www.1tv.ru/

Don't know how long this item will remain front-page, but the current item is talking about the attack on Mariupol.

Noteworthy according to 1tv.ru is that the soldiers of the Ukrainian army cannot speak russian but only English.

That's an obvious lie. If they said "some" of the soldiers only spoke English
it might be somewhat credible, but if ALL the Army personnel spoke English then
the results in the field would be quite a bit different wouldn't they. 

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on January 26, 2015, 12:39:47 PM
http://www.1tv.ru/

Don't know how long this item will remain front-page, but the current item is talking about the attack on Mariupol.

Noteworthy according to 1tv.ru is that the soldiers of the Ukrainian army cannot speak russian but only English.

That's an obvious lie. If they said "some" of the soldiers only spoke English
it might be somewhat credible, but if ALL the Army personnel spoke English then
the results in the field would be quite a bit different wouldn't they.

They didn't mention "some" or "all" or whatever. They pointed out that Ukrainian military officers spoke only English and not Russian/Ukrainian.
They highlighted 3 cases.

Where is the lie?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: 2tallbill on January 26, 2015, 08:18:07 PM

They didn't mention "some" or "all" or whatever. They pointed out that Ukrainian military officers spoke only English and not Russian/Ukrainian.
They highlighted 3 cases.

Where is the lie?

According to the quote

"Noteworthy according to 1tv.ru is that the soldiers of the Ukrainian army cannot speak russian but only English."


They said "The" soldiers of the Ukrainian army cannot speak Russian
but only English. Which means the soldiers of the Ukrainian army can
only speak English.

Was it a misquote?

If they meant the Officers only spoke English that would be curious as well. How
would they communicate accurately with the soldiers below them?

If they sent Americans to train the Ukrainian troops, they would likely send Green
Berets because their five primary missions: unconventional warfare, foreign internal defense, special reconnaissance, direct action, and counter-terrorism. The first two emphasize language, cultural, and training skills in working with foreign troops.

The Green Berets are somewhat famous for their language capabilities and they are
even more famous about not showing up on TV cameras.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: 2tallbill on January 26, 2015, 08:39:20 PM
News about training Ukrainian national guard.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: GuppyCaptain on January 26, 2015, 09:11:46 PM
News about training Ukrainian national guard.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/

Excellent  :thumbsup:

If Russia can send in troops and military equipment into Ukraine UNINVITED then surely us doing the same INVITED shouldn't be an issue, now should it?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on January 26, 2015, 09:44:21 PM
News about training Ukrainian national guard.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/

Excellent  :thumbsup:

If Russia can send in troops and military equipment into Ukraine UNINVITED then surely us doing the same INVITED shouldn't be an issue, now should it?

Much like trying to put out a fire with gasoline
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on January 27, 2015, 01:29:25 AM

They said "The" soldiers of the Ukrainian army cannot speak Russian
but only English. Which means the soldiers of the Ukrainian army can
only speak English.

Let me amend that for you:

They said "The" soldiers of the Ukrainian army (shown in this video) cannot speak Russian
but only English.

Sorry if my omission created a false illusion that 1tv.ru lied.
Watching the 1tv.ru site this was immediately clear to me, and my Russian is not even passable.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: GuppyCaptain on January 27, 2015, 06:20:32 AM
News about training Ukrainian national guard.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/

Excellent  :thumbsup:

If Russia can send in troops and military equipment into Ukraine UNINVITED then surely us doing the same INVITED shouldn't be an issue, now should it?

Much like trying to put out a fire with gasoline

Yes, well curious to see where this fire if left unextinguished will burn itself out. Mariupol? Odessa? Moldova?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: 2tallbill on January 27, 2015, 11:00:27 AM

Let me amend that for you:

They said "The" soldiers of the Ukrainian army (shown in this video) cannot speak Russian
but only English.

Sorry if my omission created a false illusion that 1tv.ru lied.
Watching the 1tv.ru site this was immediately clear to me, and my Russian is not even passable.

Ok, no worries

Bill
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on January 31, 2015, 09:46:43 PM
I bet you did not know that the west send anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/world/europe/ukraine-eu-sends-aid-to-east.html?_r=1

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=49913

Each Russian truck convoy is in our media which is not controlled by our government. You comments about how our media shows you complete lack of understand how it functions.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: GuppyCaptain on January 31, 2015, 10:25:26 PM
Can't make this stuff up:

http://news.yahoo.com/not-bread-alone-russians-urged-without-putin-143533875.html

EAT LESS FOR PUTIN:

Moscow (AFP) - Eat less, use beetroot instead of lipstick, swap French lingerie for Russian-made cotton panties and remember that hardships are a test from God.

These and other tips are being offered to Russians by lawmakers, top policy makers and the Russian Orthodox Church as the gravity of the economic crisis sinks in and prices soar.

The country pulled through great hardships before, officials say, and people should tighten their belts for their leader Vladimir Putin and a great Russia amid the confrontation with the West over Ukraine.

"I lived both under Gorbachev and Yeltsin but Putin is the first president for whom I am being asked to eat less," one Russian, Andrey Kozenko, said on Twitter.

His quip would be funny if it were not sad.

Government members openly admit they lack a plan to tackle the crisis brought on by falling oil prices and Western sanctions and warn it may last for years.

From affluent Moscow to the far-flung regions, Russians are feeling the pain: with some foregoing foreign travel while others pinch pennies to buy food.

Last week lawmaker Ilya Gaffner was monitoring price hikes at a grocery store in the Urals city of Yekaterinburg when an elderly woman told him she could no longer afford sugar for her disabled son.

His advice to her? Eat less.

People queue to buy tokens at an underground station in St. Petersburg, on December 26, 2014 (AFP Ph …

"If there is not enough money you have to remember that we are Russians, we survived hunger and cold, we have to think about our health and eat less," said the deputy in the Sverdlovsk region legislative chamber, who sports a double chin.

His remarks caused outrage -- and a barrage of unprintable online comments -- forcing a senior ruling party lawmaker to recommend that Gaffner think twice before speaking next time.

- 'Eat less for Putin' -

The deputy had no sooner apologised for his faux pas than a top Putin ally told the world Russians indeed were ready for sacrifices, especially when their leader was under pressure.

"We will withstand all hardships in this country, eat less food, use less electricity," First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov told Davos elites at the World Economic Forum.

"If a Russian feels external pressure, he will never give his leader up," said Shuvalov, who is believed to be one of the wealthiest government officials.

Patriarch Kirill also called for modesty as he addressed millions on January 7 when Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas.

"During crisis we overcome evil," the powerful head of the Russian Orthodox Church said in televised remarks. He added that those who are thinking of starting a family should not put their plans on hold due to the crisis because Russians were never rich.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has warned the ecoomic crisis may last for several years (AFP Photo …

"This prosperity brought on by the froth of petrodollars, it really came just recently."

A senator from the parliament's upper house also chimed in, suggesting that women can use natural colours from vegetables to paint their faces like their foremothers did in ancient times.

"If they must use makeup on their lips -- no problem there is beet, it's natural and chemicals would not enter the body," Igor Chernyshev, deputy head of the social policies committee, said in December.

"And our women look better in lingerie made at a Moscow factory than that made in France."
And this right here is the sad part. Namely that the average Igor & Marina Russian will suffer because of Putin's land grab. Certainly Vlad and his rich cronies will not have to worry about having enough money to put food on the table for their families.

Wait, according to Manny weren't these sanctions supposed to go away "in a few months" and "the average Russian isn't feeling the pinch"? Whatever.......
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 01, 2015, 03:49:06 PM
  I have found Manny's Russian twin!

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/the-blame-game-in-ukraine/vp-AA8E23Z?ocid=BDT5DHP

 A 25 minute program with 3 panel guests. One is an American formally with the NATO, another is a Ukrainian, and the final guest is a guy from Voice of Russia.

 Click on the link and it will take you to the Aljazeera program

A Yank puppet from The McCain InstituteYes that McCain (http://www.mccaininstitute.org/about/mission-statement/) who is an ex NATO bloke.  (:)

A Ukrainian nationalist from a Kiev university. "We can resolve all our internal conflicts without force" he said, before begging money from the west. His comments about oil and gas were way off base. He is out to lunch.   :coffeeread:

The Dmitry guy in Moscow is on the money indeed. He made three good points: 800k refugees registered in Russia that fled Ukraine to "aggressor" Russia, and if there were thousands of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, why have hundreds not been captured? Or even 50? And still no firm evidence of the "invasion".
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 01, 2015, 04:23:21 PM
Don't forget that on the 'invasion' issue that the Ukrainian military have once again said, at the highest level, that there are no Russian armed forces in Ukraine.

So, on top of the complete lack of evidence of the 40 or so 'invasions', the most senior officer in the military is saying that there's no Russian military in Ukraine, other than those invited in by the Ukrainian government.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 01, 2015, 04:29:35 PM
Don't forget that on the 'invasion' issue that the Ukrainian military have once again said, at the highest level, that there are no Russian armed forces in Ukraine.

In Don's programme, the Ukrainian bloke said there were 12,000 of them. Hence the question from the Russian as to why have none been captured bar five on leave who strayed over the border by a km.

Even better, with all these American satellites everywhere, strange that they not only missed MH17 but cant seem to find 12k Russian soldiers and their kit flowing over the border into Novorossiya. Maybe they need to invest in some Russian satellites as the American ones don't seem to work.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 01, 2015, 05:19:40 PM
Don't forget that on the 'invasion' issue that the Ukrainian military have once again said, at the highest level, that there are no Russian armed forces in Ukraine.

In Don's programme, the Ukrainian bloke said there were 12,000 of them. Hence the question from the Russian as to why have none been captured bar five on leave who strayed over the border by a km.

Even better, with all these American satellites everywhere, strange that they not only missed MH17 but cant seem to find 12k Russian soldiers and their kit flowing over the border into Novorossiya. Maybe they need to invest in some Russian satellites as the American ones don't seem to work.

There's enough photos showing troop movements from Russia into Ukraine. Here are some NATO photos from last year:

http://aco.nato.int/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat-troops-inside-ukraine.aspx#prettyPhoto

  (http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image1.jpg&Size=520)

Image 1 shows Russian military units moving in a convoy formation with self-propelled artillery in the area of Krasnodon, Ukraine, well inside territory controlled by Russian separatists. The image was captured on 21 August 2014. There is confidence the equipment is Russian, since Ukrainian units have not yet penetrated this far into separatist controlled territory.

  (http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image2.jpg&Size=520)

Image 2 shows Russian self-propelled artillery units set up in firing positions near Krasnodon, Ukraine. They are supported by logistical vehicles which are likely carrying extra ammunition and supplies. This configuration is exactly how trained military professionals would arrange their assets on the ground, indicating that these are not unskilled amateurs, but Russian soldiers. Russian artillery systems like these have recently shelled Ukrainian positions outside the city of Lugansk in conjunction with a separatist counteroffensive to attempt to break the Ukrainian siege of the city.

(http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image3.jpg&Size=520)

Image 3 includes two pictures (left and right) and shows a military deployment site on the Russian side of the border, near Rostov-on-Don. This location is approximately 31 miles or 50 kilometres from the Dovzhansky, Ukraine border crossing.

(http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image4.jpg&Size=520)

Image 4, captured on 23 July 2014, depicts what are probably six Russian 153mm 2S19 self-propelled guns located in Russia near Kuybyshevo. This site is situated 4 miles, or 6.5 kilometres, south of the Ukraine border, near the village of Chervonyi Zhovten. The guns are pointed north, directly towards Ukrainian territory (see North indicator on image). See image 5 for an overview of where these guns are situated in relation to Ukrainian territory.

(http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image5.jpg&Size=520)

Image 5 shows a wider overview including the position of the self-propelled guns from image 4. Note the North indicator on this image, and remember that the guns are orientated in this location. It is clear that from this location, it would be impossible NOT to fire into Ukrainian territory. This is clearly NOT an exercise; these guns are being used to support separatist forces operating in the territory of Ukraine.

RT and other Kremlin owned media sources probably didn't carry these photos so I can see why you're not aware of them.

As for why few Russia soldiers have been captured that can be explained. If the Russian military in Ukraine are being used in support roles. Anything that doesn't involve contact with Ukrainian military. Such things as deliveries of tanks, trucks and other military equipment behind pro-Russian forces. Crossings into Ukraine would be at separatists' controlled border points then it's not likely these Russian soldiers would be captured. This would also leave more separatists free to do the actual fighting.

A second theory would be if the Russian forces were operating only in areas where there was overwhelming military presence of pro-Russian separatists then again there'd be little chance of being captured. Any Russian military killed would be taken back to base for return to Russia.

A third theory would be that Russian military forces have been captured but are posing as pro-Russian separatists. The Russian military would dress and be equipped as separatists. As has been mentioned by Manny and others many of the separatists have served in the Russian and/or USSR military. Therefore Russia could send in Russian military forces who could pass as separatists. These Russian military men would have to be older, speak at least some Ukrainian, have knowledge of the region and other criteria which could be quickly learned . Probably not hard to find a few thousand in the Russian military who meet the qualifications.   

I'm sure there are other explanations but a combination of all 3 of these theories would allow for thousands of Russian military personnel to be in Ukraine with only a few being captured.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on February 01, 2015, 05:24:52 PM
The Dmitry guy in Moscow is on the money indeed.

 Yes its not surprising you would say that. Dmitry basically says everything you have been going on about here at RUA for several months. He works for 'Voice of Russia.' I'm too lazy to search what that is, although I have an idea, but I'll wait for Westy to get off the back 9 to fill us in. Unless you would like to tell us?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 01, 2015, 05:34:37 PM
The Dmitry guy in Moscow is on the money indeed.

 Yes its not surprising you would say that. Dmitry basically says everything you have been going on about here at RUA for several months. He works for 'Voice of Russia.' I'm too lazy to search what that is, although I have an idea, but I'll wait for Westy to get off the back 9 to fill us in. Unless you would like to tell us?

No golf today Donny, it's raining. As for the Voice of Russia it is indeed what you think it is. It was the Russian government's international radio broadcasting service from 1993 until 9 November 2014. Putin recently merged it with RIA Novosti to form the Rossiya Segodnya international news agency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIA_Novosti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossiya_Segodnya
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on February 01, 2015, 05:50:41 PM
  Ah, Dmitry the Putin sock puppet, got it.
 
 Are there any news outlets operating in Russia that are not  government controlled?  Or have all those journalists simple been killed, or fled due to death threats to the west in order to save themselves from being killed? 

 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 01, 2015, 05:53:25 PM
Oh Westy, Digital Globe? Really? Does the US not have its own satellites?  :chuckle:

Those pictures show nothing. This was debunked months ago. Google earth shows better images. Is that the best they could do? Some blurry stuff nobody can identify from some private company designed for a hysterical compliant media to recycle?

You should investigate some more Westy.  :coffeeread:

Quote
Ironically, it did not take long before the low-resolution images had been discredited as a propaganda stunt. The images were from the commercial satellite image provider Digital Globe. Moreover, the images showed a joint Russian – Ukrainian military exercise which had been held eight months earlier. The Russian General Staff responded, saying that “the images were taken some eight months before the stated date”. RIA Novosti quotes the General Staff official as saying:

“These shots, which were distributed by NATO, show Russian Armed Forces units in the Southern Military District, which in the summer of last year, were taking part in various drills, including near the Ukrainian border”.

This begs a number of questions, like why didn’t the U.S. State Department refute the statement that was issued by the Russian General Staff, but instead continued repeating the narrative that was based on the Digital Globe, commercial satellite images.

Hasn’t the USA access to better satellite images than those commercial, low-resolution photos? Or were low-resolution photos exactly what NATO’s and the Pentagon’s war planners had in mind as perfect, for pulling the wool over the eyes of the public?

http://nsnbc.me/2014/09/21/open-skies-vs-fakes-documenting-russian-troops-at-ukraines-borders-a-piece-of-cake/

Some of you lot will swallow any old tripe your government feeds you. >>Here<< (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Winnipeg,+MB,+Canada/@49.8528925,-97.1458681,227a,20y,270h,41.64t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x52ea73fbf91a2b11:0x2b2a1afac6b9ca64) is a random Google earth shot in Winnipeg. See the difference between that and the "NATO" images? Do you think NATO might be able to do better?

Take your time........
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on February 01, 2015, 06:08:14 PM
  Wasn't someone here trying to convince us of the same shit with MH17 using similar photos only with a fighter jet placed on the photo?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 01, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
  Wasn't someone here trying to convince us of the same shit with MH17 using similar photos only with a fighter jet placed on the photo?

Changing the subject?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 01, 2015, 06:32:07 PM
Oh Westy, Digital Globe? Really? Does the US not have its own satellites?  :chuckle:

Manny I explained this to you last year. The US doesn't use photos from its own satellites because it doesn't want to show Russia, China, etc its satellite capabilities. 


Quote
Ironically, it did not take long before the low-resolution images had been discredited as a propaganda stunt. The images were from the commercial satellite image provider Digital Globe. Moreover, the images showed a joint Russian – Ukrainian military exercise which had been held eight months earlier. The Russian General Staff responded, saying that “the images were taken some eight months before the stated date”. RIA Novosti quotes the General Staff official as saying:

“These shots, which were distributed by NATO, show Russian Armed Forces units in the Southern Military District, which in the summer of last year, were taking part in various drills, including near the Ukrainian border”.

This begs a number of questions, like why didn’t the U.S. State Department refute the statement that was issued by the Russian General Staff, but instead continued repeating the narrative that was based on the Digital Globe, commercial satellite images.

Hasn’t the USA access to better satellite images than those commercial, low-resolution photos? Or were low-resolution photos exactly what NATO’s and the Pentagon’s war planners had in mind as perfect, for pulling the wool over the eyes of the public?

http://nsnbc.me/2014/09/21/open-skies-vs-fakes-documenting-russian-troops-at-ukraines-borders-a-piece-of-cake/

Some of you lot will swallow any old tripe your government feeds you. >>Here<< (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Winnipeg,+MB,+Canada/@49.8528925,-97.1458681,227a,20y,270h,41.64t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x52ea73fbf91a2b11:0x2b2a1afac6b9ca64) is a random Google earth shot in Winnipeg. See the difference between that and the "NATO" images? Do you think NATO might be able to do better?

Take your time........

Manny none of the photos in the link you provided match the photos I posted. The dates are not the same.


Some of you lot will swallow any old tripe your government feeds you. >>Here<< (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Winnipeg,+MB,+Canada/@49.8528925,-97.1458681,227a,20y,270h,41.64t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x52ea73fbf91a2b11:0x2b2a1afac6b9ca64) is a random Google earth shot in Winnipeg. See the difference between that and the "NATO" images? Do you think NATO might be able to do better?


Manny, the simple truth is that most of the crystal clear Google satellite images of places like Winnipeg, MN (like the one Manny just posted) are NOT in fact satellite images.  They do incorporate some satellite imagery into their products (especially for zoomed-out views and those over lesser-populated areas), but most of the areas that allow you to zoom in with impressive clarity are really aerial photographs from airplanes. The nice clear and detailed photos that we see on Google use ultra-high-resolution cameras in airplanes to take close-up photos.

http://thevane.gawker.com/why-can-google-see-your-car-but-satellites-cant-clearl-1549549756 

Manny I hope you've learned something today.

 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on February 01, 2015, 06:33:26 PM
  Wasn't someone here trying to convince us of the same shit with MH17 using similar photos only with a fighter jet placed on the photo?

Changing the subject?


 :chuckle:   

I can't to move the goal posts because they're frozen in the ground until late March, so no.


  But somewhere I recall seeing cheesy pics showing a UA jet flight path enroute to shooting down the airliner. I don't remember who posted it though.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 01, 2015, 07:19:23 PM
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/31/ukraines-military-commander-russian-troops-ukraine/


http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-government-no-russian-troops-are-fighting-against-us-sanctions-against-russia-based-on-falshoods/5428523
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 01, 2015, 07:35:32 PM
The US doesn't use photos from its own satellites because it doesn't want to show Russia, China, etc its satellite capabilities. 

Oh, that will be it then.   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on February 01, 2015, 07:44:31 PM
The US doesn't use photos from its own satellites because it doesn't want to show Russia, China, etc its satellite capabilities. 

Oh, that will be it then.   :ROFL:

Actually, he is telling you the truth.  They wont even give them to pilots or navigators because they are too classified.  The use data from comercial  satellites
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sharonhaber00 on February 02, 2015, 05:10:24 AM
So the debate here is whether or not there are Russian troops in eastern Ukraine. Is this matter?

Perhaps more important to ask who have started the conflict? i.e. the first move towards the disaster. i.e. the Maiden thing? That's beyond satellite capabilities, no? 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: GriffinCO on February 02, 2015, 08:54:40 AM
So the debate here is whether or not there are Russian troops in eastern Ukraine. Is this matter?

Perhaps more important to ask who have started the conflict? i.e. the first move towards the disaster. i.e. the Maiden thing? That's beyond satellite capabilities, no?
And ultimately what is the point of all this finger pointing? Is there a definitive answer we can arrive at?

America supports a pro-western government to keep Russia in check. Russia can't allow any more creep into their periphery.

America won't put boots on the ground. It's clear Russia has and will. Russia does not care about the economic impact as this is about national security.

So the question isn't whether Russia will control Ukraine, but how they will control it. And how much will it cost them politically to do so.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 09, 2015, 08:48:57 AM
Interesting article in Slate on Putin's plan in Ukraine. The author seems to be saying that Putin is planning on a long term war and will continue gobbling up pieces of Ukraine no matter what the west does.

One interesting part seems particularly relevant:

The point of the war is not to achieve a victory. The point is to prevent the emergence of anything resembling a prosperous, European Ukraine, because such a state would pose an ideological threat to Putinism.

In this part of the article the author is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along, Putin wants Ukraine under Russian control.  Failing that Ukraine must not become part of the EU which would be an insult to Putin.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/saving_ukraine_and_stopping_vladimir_putin_the_west_needs_a_long_term_strategy.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 09, 2015, 04:54:48 PM
Interesting article in Slate on Putin's plan in Ukraine. The author seems to be saying that Putin is planning on a long term war and will continue gobbling up pieces of Ukraine no matter what the west does.

One interesting part seems particularly relevant:

The point of the war is not to achieve a victory. The point is to prevent the emergence of anything resembling a prosperous, European Ukraine, because such a state would pose an ideological threat to Putinism.

In this part of the article the author is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along, Putin wants Ukraine under Russian control.  Failing that Ukraine must not become part of the EU which would be an insult to Putin.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/saving_ukraine_and_stopping_vladimir_putin_the_west_needs_a_long_term_strategy.html

More US propaganda repackaged from the Washington Post Westy?

She is hardly an unbiased writer is she? Almost everything she writes is anti-Russian (http://www.slate.com/authors.anne_applebaum.html), and some of it rather ridiculous with little in common with reality.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 09, 2015, 05:17:11 PM
The US doesn't use photos from its own satellites because it doesn't want to show Russia, China, etc its satellite capabilities. 

Oh, that will be it then.   :ROFL:

Interesting that rubbish about 'classified' images.

A couple of weeks ago the Guardian published some images taken before and after Boko Haram attacks in Nigera. These images were commercial, from satellites and were very detailed. Interestingly they were infra red, using false colour. The purpose was to show the extent and type of destruction wrought by these thugs upon a village.

In the images one could easily see individual trees and small huts/homes at a resolution that even shown on a computer screen from a small image would have allowed a viewer to see if a vehicle was a tank or combine harvester, a howitzer or a plough. More interesting than the basic resolution was the use of infra red and associated false colour imaging because, in the Nigerian context, it enabled the viewer to easily see the destruction to trees in the area because trees are a different temperature to the surrounding area Bright red showed a live tree, grey or pale red showed a dead or dying tree. Same for the buildings. The first image showed the area giving off heat, people and animals in occupation. The second - no red, no people. The whole area had been razed to the ground.
To make the imaging even clearer the pictures were of exactly the same area with s sub-section accurately highlighted and magnified for easy comparison.

Similar imaging used in Ukraine would have shown what type of equipment was in a place, whether it was stationery or in motion, how long it had been stood in place. None of this type of imaging in unique to Nigeria. ;)
If 9000 men were encamped in the country then their caravan would be seen, their encampments would be easily spotted, if only from the heat emissions.

So, where is it in Ukraine?

These commercial satellites cover the globe, so why is there no evidence from commercial sources provided through NATO or the US?
Of course if this stuff is available commercially we can expect that intelligence services have better quality imaging.

What the Nigerian images show is that the excuses about secrecy are a canard concealing the truth. NATO and the US know what is, or is not, present in Ukraine but they can not show what is not there.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on February 09, 2015, 09:27:57 PM
One story reported that Lysenko stated that the Donetsk chemical plant explosion was caused by a cigarette butt and another source wrote that he claimed that hundreds of terrorists had died there. Yet another story claimed that the plant was unoccupied at the time of the explosion. The hundreds-of-fatalities thing was probably just wishful thinking. Lysenko had better be careful what he wishes for, though. The more "cigarette butts" that are dropped in Donetsk, the more likely that some are going to be dropped in K'yiv.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on February 09, 2015, 09:41:06 PM

... and in another story, Obama made a rare, intelligent comment, even though it was buried in rhetoric:

Quote from: The Fiscal Times
... Russia obviously has an extraordinarily powerful military and given the length of the Russian border with Ukraine, given the history between Russia and Ukraine, expecting that if Russia is determined that Ukraine can fully rebuff a Russian army has always been unlikely.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-putin-really-wanted-ukraine-201600345.html


Obama, Kerry, Lysenko and Yatsenyuk are all in the running for BS champions of the world.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 09, 2015, 10:03:49 PM
The US doesn't use photos from its own satellites because it doesn't want to show Russia, China, etc its satellite capabilities. 

Oh, that will be it then.   :ROFL:

Interesting that rubbish about 'classified' images.

http://www.wired.com/2012/06/spysat-smackdown/

This article is from 2012. Don't know if the US has updated/upgraded their spy satellites since but either way I'm sure this article is still true. Some highlights from the article.

- 75% of the U.S. government’s satellite images don’t come from government satellites. They’re provided by two companies, GeoEye and DigitalGlobe.
- DigitalGlobe’s and GeoEye’s high-resolution images of the Earth are employed for military purposes, including intelligence gathering and disaster relief.
- AOL Defense reported on Monday that the White House is going to review its “Commercial Remote Sensing Space Policy,” which requires the U.S. Government to “rely to the maximum practical extent on U.S. Commercial remote sensing space capabilities,” instead of military spy satellites.
- Commercial satellites don’t take quite as detailed images as their classified, government-owned counterparts.
- Government satellites are so dated that “some are old enough to vote and some are old enough to drink,” an industry official tells Danger Room.
- commercial satellite data is unclassified and easy to share with U.S. allies.

I'd say the article lists a number of very good reasons why most of the satellite images the US government and military release to the public are from commercial satellites, wouldn't you Andrew? Also note the commercial satellite date is unclassified. Guess that means that the satellite data from spy satellites isn't, right Andrew? 


NATO and the US know what is, or is not, present in Ukraine but they can not show what is not there.

If NATO and the US know what is, or is not, present in Ukraine then so does Russia. Why doesn't Russia simply produce ultra resolution satellites images and/or infrared satellite images from their spy satellites  showing what truly happened?

Russia keeps saying they're being screwed by the US and EU so if Russia can show that the US and EU are wrong it would be a major coup for Putin and would certainly lead to public pressure to lift some or all of the sanctions hurting the Russian economy.

If as the article says the satellite data from the commercial satellites is unclassified then Russia could simply buy all the satellites images from the area in Ukraine during the relevant time periods and release it to the public. Why doesn't Russia do that?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 20, 2015, 02:16:20 AM
Something half sensible on the BBC for a change: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30278606

The framing of the piece is well off but some of that factual underpinning is OK.

One thought though, there is constant reference to the gap of Ukraine falling by a figure as small as just 7%. I wonder what it'd be absent services provided in respect of the civil war?

Based upon what is happening on the ground with real businesses the figure, at that level, seems way too low.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MND on February 20, 2015, 03:44:19 AM
Something half sensible on the BBC for a change: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30278606

That Article is spot on and the EU Union at the moment would not be able to afford bringing a country like Ukraine onboard. Ukraine really does need some good politicians that have their heads screwed on right. I dont like what is going on in Ukraine at the moment because i have family overthere and Russia could have done things differently but Ukrainian politicians through there threats of joining the EU Union and joining Nato forced Russia to start this conflict in Crimea as they wanted to secure there main Naval base which caused all of this to escalate even further.
Why does the media not report on the actual facts and why does the rest of the world leaders not sit down with the leaders of both countries to come up with a solution that will benefit  both Ukraine and Russia.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: MND on February 20, 2015, 06:02:30 AM
Something half sensible on the BBC for a change: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30278606

The framing of the piece is well off but some of that factual underpinning is OK.

One thought though, there is constant reference to the gap of Ukraine falling by a figure as small as just 7%. I wonder what it'd be absent services provided in respect of the civil war?

Based upon what is happening on the ground with real businesses the figure, at that level, seems way too low.

Yes it is way to low and going on what family have been telling me that live on the western side it is really hitting everyone hard and business has really dropped throughout the country
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 23, 2015, 02:16:00 PM
"The Ukrainian military has said it cannot start withdrawing heavy weapons from the front line in the east until the rebels stop shelling its positions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31583413)."


This is not a problem; the separatists are always happy to receive donations of heavy weapons from K'yiv.

The Novorossians actually started withdrawing weapons a few days ago in areas where they felt safe to do so. Tellingly the Kievan forces did not match the movements and,  as we now know, have made clear their intent to not do so.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 25, 2015, 11:54:26 AM
Putin: Ukrainian army is a NATO legion

Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the Ukrainian army was a NATO legion, the goal of which was not to pursue national interests of Ukraine, but to contain Russia geopolitically.

"We often say: the Ukrainian army, the Ukrainian army. In fact, who is fighting there? There are official units of the armed forces there indeed, partly, but largely, there are so-called nationalist volunteer battalions," Putin said while interacting with students at the National Mineral University in St. Petersburg.

"In fact, this is not an army, but a foreign legion, in this case, a NATO foreign legion, which, of course, does not pursue to protect Ukraine's national interests. They have different goals, and they are connected with objectives of geopolitical containment of Russia, which does not coincide with the national interests of the Ukrainian people," Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

read all about it here
http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/26-01-2015/129617-putin_ukraine_nato_legion-0/

I agree with him.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 25, 2015, 11:58:36 AM
Financial war: USA tries to trigger wave of bankruptcies of Russian companies
The US government is trying all possible means of putting the pressure of sanctions on Russia. The US authorities do not stop at workaround ways to weaken the Russian currency and economy.

To achieve this goal and take advantage of the plunged ruble, the US government intends to resort to a technical trick to shorten the duration of existing loans and credits, which Russian banks, energy companies and arms companies have in European and American banks.

Washington tries to establish its lobby in the EU - in Brussels in particular. The USA will again discuss Russia's exclusion from the SWIFT payment system. The Americans had tried this step before, but the independent SWIFT organization refused to obey Washington. However, if the USA succeeds on this, the cash flow to Russian companies will be suppressed, Pravda.Ru reports.

read more here
http://english.pravda.ru/

That will set in a new Cold War for decades. We all assume the troubles at the moment to be temporary, but Russia's economy will come back, there will be fight back against American companies (Bye bye McDonalds and Google for a start). If after the map in Ukraine is redrawn and sanctions are done America has pulled strokes like that, the retaliation will not stop, and a new long-term Cold War will be born. Which is what America seems to want.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 25, 2015, 12:12:15 PM
Financial war: USA tries to trigger wave of bankruptcies of Russian companies
The US government is trying all possible means of putting the pressure of sanctions on Russia. The US authorities do not stop at workaround ways to weaken the Russian currency and economy.

To achieve this goal and take advantage of the plunged ruble, the US government intends to resort to a technical trick to shorten the duration of existing loans and credits, which Russian banks, energy companies and arms companies have in European and American banks.

Washington tries to establish its lobby in the EU - in Brussels in particular. The USA will again discuss Russia's exclusion from the SWIFT payment system. The Americans had tried this step before, but the independent SWIFT organization refused to obey Washington. However, if the USA succeeds on this, the cash flow to Russian companies will be suppressed, Pravda.Ru reports.

read more here
http://english.pravda.ru/

That will set in a new Cold War for decades. We all assume the troubles at the moment to be temporary, but Russia's economy will come back, there will be fight back against American companies (Bye bye McDonalds and Google for a start). If after the map in Ukraine is redrawn and sanctions are done America has pulled strokes like that, the retaliation will not stop, and a new long-term Cold War will be born. Which is what America seems to want.

Manny which country do you think is going to win an economic Cold War? The Russian economy was, before the current sanctions, about 1/8th the size of the American economy. Add in the EU economy, plus the economies of Canada, Japan, Australia, NZ and a few others and that makes the Russian economy about 1/20th the size of its adversary.

If the price of oil drops or some substitutes are found for Russian oil and gas in the coming years, what happens to the Russian economy? What happens to those Russian businesses that do business in the west?

Putin either does business with the west or he does business with China, those are his two options. IMHO Putin is better off doing business with the west, China won't tolerate any of his BS.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mhr7 on February 25, 2015, 12:27:32 PM
Quote
(Bye bye McDonalds and Google for a start)

Not likely. Both are very popular and widely used here.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 25, 2015, 01:57:48 PM
Quote
(Bye bye McDonalds and Google for a start)

Not likely. Both are very popular and widely used here.

Google is miles behind Yandex as a search engine in Russia (60+% v 20+% I recall). McDonalds already got its ass kicked in Moscow, which I think was a taster.

Manny which country do you think is going to win an economic Cold War? The Russian economy was, before the current sanctions, about 1/8th the size of the American economy. Add in the EU economy, plus the economies of Canada, Japan, Australia, NZ and a few others and that makes the Russian economy about 1/20th the size of its adversary.

Why try to tag along Japan and Oz? The discussion is America.

Size isn't everything. Russia has way less debt and a lot of business with the BRICS in the pipeline. Yes it can be damaged short term, but Russia is already diversifying. Russia wont be bankrupted so easily, especially not when oil goes back up.

My point was, its not a one way street. A lot of American companies want a market share of Russia's 140m people. A lot of companies from elsewhere will happily step in and fill in voids, as we saw with food sanctions.

Sanctions cut both ways. Russia has a low debt economy. The people have low debt too. If America doesn't want to do business in Russia others will. America has a large, but high debt and weak economy. It is not as simple as you paint it Westy. If you knew more about business, you would know this.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mhr7 on February 25, 2015, 02:07:09 PM
Quote
McDonalds already got its ass kicked in Moscow, which I think was a taster.

IIRC, only four McDonalds were shut down and three have since re-opened. Not much of an ass kicking. Even here in my little city McDonalds is 1 of only 2 restaurants that are open 24/7.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on February 25, 2015, 10:05:40 PM
Quote
(Bye bye McDonalds and Google for a start)

Not likely. Both are very popular and widely used here.

Google is miles behind Yandex as a search engine in Russia (60+% v 20+% I recall). McDonalds already got its ass kicked in Moscow, which I think was a taster.

Manny which country do you think is going to win an economic Cold War? The Russian economy was, before the current sanctions, about 1/8th the size of the American economy. Add in the EU economy, plus the economies of Canada, Japan, Australia, NZ and a few others and that makes the Russian economy about 1/20th the size of its adversary.

Why try to tag along Japan and Oz? The discussion is America.

Size isn't everything. Russia has way less debt and a lot of business with the BRICS in the pipeline. Yes it can be damaged short term, but Russia is already diversifying. Russia wont be bankrupted so easily, especially not when oil goes back up.

My point was, its not a one way street. A lot of American companies want a market share of Russia's 140m people. A lot of companies from elsewhere will happily step in and fill in voids, as we saw with food sanctions.

Sanctions cut both ways. Russia has a low debt economy. The people have low debt too. If America doesn't want to do business in Russia others will. America has a large, but high debt and weak economy. It is not as simple as you paint it Westy. If you knew more about business, you would know this.

+1

The only reason the USA economy is weak at all right now is because the Obamunists are pushing their Marxist Socialist anti free markets agenda... idiot just vetoed the Keystone pipelines from Canada when now that energy costs are low is the best most economical time to build out this key ribbon of economic prosperity between USA and Canada in preparation of future sky high oil and gas prices ... plenty of laid off Oil laborers available to work the pipeline.  EPA and OSHA regulations and tax regulations under the Obamunists are crushing free markets in the USA.

The cold hard reality is that the USA and Russia do not do any business - last year approx $9B USD - this is really accidental trade happening on the Rotterdam SPOT markets for RU oil deals that fell through and US traders snagged and perhaps a small percentage from what cooperation still exists in space.

This SWIFT exclusionary thing is disconcerting because with FATCA and FCPA if the BRICS create an alternative network - easy for the top software engineers from Russia, India and China as well as Brazil and South Africa to create - especially if they integrated some of the more secure aspects of virtual currency exchanges - SWIFT could become a bloated relic - imagine clearing international trade virtually with no predatory 2Big2Fail gangster banksters from NYC, London, Toronto or HK involved.

Only ignorant Obamunist Marxist Social Justice Warriors on a short Gangster Bankster lobbyist controlled leash would think that SWIFT is a weapon when SWIFT can be easily replaced with a much more secure and much less intrusive international financial system - only reason SWIFT is so popular is that it cooperates with the oppressive Central Banks around the planet.

Incoterms payments and trading protocols could easily substitute any Virtu$ systems that the BRICS and the rest of the world might wish to adopt.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 25, 2015, 10:14:50 PM
An article (today's date so should be up to date) that says Russia can't beat NATO in a conventional war (not in a nuclear war either but that's another matter) but Putin might try because he "craves revenge for the collapse of the USSR, but who still harbors old-school Kremlin fantasies about the weakness of the decadent West."

How ready is Russia to go to war? According to the article the Vermont Air National Guard (which for years has intercepted Soviet and Russian aircraft on the U.S. East Coast) is more ready to go to war than the Russian Air Force. The article goes on to say that without air cover whatever initial advantage Russian ground forces may have had will soon evaporate.

The article is a good read. The author Tom Nichols is Professor of National Security Affairs at the Naval War College and an adjunct at the Harvard Extension School. His most recent book is No Use: Nuclear Weapons and U.S. National Security (University of Pennsylvania, 2014)


http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2015/02/25/russia_cant_beat_nato--but_putin_may_try.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 25, 2015, 10:45:43 PM
Quote
(Bye bye McDonalds and Google for a start)

Not likely. Both are very popular and widely used here.

Google is miles behind Yandex as a search engine in Russia (60+% v 20+% I recall). McDonalds already got its ass kicked in Moscow, which I think was a taster.

Manny which country do you think is going to win an economic Cold War? The Russian economy was, before the current sanctions, about 1/8th the size of the American economy. Add in the EU economy, plus the economies of Canada, Japan, Australia, NZ and a few others and that makes the Russian economy about 1/20th the size of its adversary.

Why try to tag along Japan and Oz? The discussion is America.

Because as even Putin knows in the global economy all countries are connected. If the US and EU don't want one of their trading partners trading with Russia then those trading partners aren't likely to be trading with Russia.


Size isn't everything.

Size is everything in economies and militaries. How well did the Georgian military do against the Russian army? How is Ukraine doing against a few thousand Russian soldiers "on vacation" and Putin's puppet army? If the EU and US kick Russia out of SWIFT, the Russian economy will get far worse.

Russia has way less debt

The Russian government may have little debt but the large Russian energy companies that are government owned and some privately owned companies have lots of debt, most/all of it is in euros or USD and lots of that debt is coming due. These companies can't get new international loans and are relying on the Russian government for help. The simple fact is the Russian government can't afford to help all the companies that are in trouble.

a lot of business with the BRICS in the pipeline.

India and especially China have many times more business with the EU and US then they will ever have with Russia. If either has to choose why would they go with Russia over the EU or US?

Yes it can be damaged short term, but Russia is already diversifying. Russia wont be bankrupted so easily, especially not when oil goes back up.

And if oil doesn't go back up? If oil goes down and stays down for a few years? At $30/bbl or less? There are at least as many 'experts' saying oil will stay low as saying oil will go back up.

My point was, its not a one way street. A lot of American companies want a market share of Russia's 140m people. A lot of companies from elsewhere will happily step in and fill in voids, as we saw with food sanctions.

I doubt there are that many American companies eager to do business in Russia. Take a look at the trade figures. The US-Russia trade is small and has never really taken off. As for replacing food, that's reasonably easy, finding a new company to build cars or tractors that Russia can afford is a problem.

Sanctions cut both ways. Russia has a low debt economy. The people have low debt too. If America doesn't want to do business in Russia others will. America has a large, but high debt and weak economy. It is not as simple as you paint it Westy. If you knew more about business, you would know this.

Russian sanctions against the US haven't done any real damage, there's so little trade between the 2 countries. As for a weak American economy, the USD is at near record highs against the euro, yen and pound. The US stock markets are at record highs and the US unemployment rate is below 7%. The US is doing far better than the EU or Russia.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 26, 2015, 01:33:00 AM
The point about size has eluded you Westy. Huge companies with multi million dollar turnovers go broke. The underlying fundamentals are important. Ask yourself a question: Is the dollar currently where it is because the US suddenly started exporting more? More people abroad suddenly buying Buicks, Wrangler Jeans or other American products to drive this? Not that I see.

Now, given a choice between backing a huge economy/currency that is manipulated by QE and other fakery, and saddled with huge debt, or one that has low debt, money flowing from the ground but is smaller, most businessmen would favour the latter.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Slumba on February 26, 2015, 02:02:39 AM
The point about size has eluded you Westy. Huge companies with multi million dollar turnovers go broke. The underlying fundamentals are important. Ask yourself a question: Is the dollar currently where it is because the US suddenly started exporting more? More people abroad suddenly buying Buicks, Wrangler Jeans or other American products to drive this? Not that I see.

Now, given a choice between backing a huge economy/currency that is manipulated by QE and other fakery, and saddled with huge debt, or one that has low debt, money flowing from the ground but is smaller, most businessmen would favour the latter.

The USD is stronger because QE (money printing) ended.  Relatively speaking there were less "dollars" digital or otherwise, sloshing around, making each one worth a bit more.

The Federal Reserve (the scam portion of fiat currency) had a balance sheet of under $1Trillion USD in 2008, which has since ballooned to over $4T - all printed up out of thin air, digital ones and zeros with nothing backing them.

Sort of like every other central bank in the world, including the UK central bank, the ECB, and the Russian central bank.

The EU can't hold it together, either - and people are betting that the scam will last longer in the USA than in the EU, the USA having a higher fertility rate (especially ex-Muslim) and a lot of land that is arable.  Plus guns (military).

Russia has a chance - but right now, despite all their smart people, they are natural resource extractors only.  They haven't demonstrated deep marketing and product creation skills.

Let me give you 1 example:

The market for Kettlebells in the USA is exploding, during the last several years this has become one of the "hot" areas of the USA exercise market. 

Where were kettlebells invented?  RUSSIA. 

What are KB's made of?  Cast iron and steel.

Does Russia already make these for the domestic market?  Yes.

Do the Russians have a good reputation in the physical fitness world, due to the high quality of the athletes they produce?  Absolutely.

So why are all the KBs in the USA, made in China?  A Russian made kettlebell would command a price premium, more than making up for any extra production or shipping costs.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 26, 2015, 02:24:14 AM
I agree with all that Slumba.

Interesting about the kettleballs. Russians do seem to lack the smarts in export. I recall we wanted some injection moulding doing, and investigation turned up some factories in my wife's hometown in Russia that were experienced in doing *exactly* what we wanted. Seeing something tagged as 'Made in Russia' you seldom see here, would have been fun. We have our in house translator, so doing the deal should be easy, yes?

My wife called three factories. One she couldn't get to talk to anyone, one wanted to know 'how much we wanted to spend' before he had even seen the product and the other told her he would discuss it over lunch.  :chuckle:

Only a small sample I grant you, but they were clueless. Were that me I would be grabbing an export customer with both hands.

UK firms wanted a wheelbarrow full of money, so like everyone else, I ended up in China.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 26, 2015, 09:23:15 AM
The point about size has eluded you Westy. Huge companies with multi million dollar turnovers go broke. The underlying fundamentals are important. Ask yourself a question: Is the dollar currently where it is because the US suddenly started exporting more?

The USD is up because of a number of factors. One is because the US economy has strengthened. Another is because there is weakness in the EU, Japan, China and other countries. Another is because there are political and economic problems in the world and when there's uncertainty money heads for a safe haven and that's the US.


Now, given a choice between backing a huge economy/currency that is manipulated by QE and other fakery, and saddled with huge debt, or one that has low debt, money flowing from the ground but is smaller, most businessmen would favour the latter.

Manny you say most businessmen would favour the latter? Why didn't you invest in Russia? You posted about trying to find someone in Russia to make your gadgets but couldn't. Why didn't you persist, try again and again until you found someone in Russia who would do the job? Why? Because that's not the way business is done.

As you stated when you couldn't find someone in Russia to do the work you went to China and had no problems finding someone to do the work. Add in the fact that Russia is one of the most corrupt states in Europe and you have an environment that is not conducive to business. Now with all the talk of war, money is flowing out of Russia and won't start to return until years after the war is over.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on February 27, 2015, 04:38:08 AM
Manny, your last link is just more of the same, if anyone spends enough time, you can find any bit,angle or position you want.

Why not look for something that is likely closer to the truth.
Its a game for the US,EU and Russia. Problem is Ukrainian lives are being lost
and they really don't have many choices.

At the end of the day, Ukraine should be able to make any choice they wish.
If one side or the other is good/tricky enough to convince them, it is still their
choice. :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on February 27, 2015, 06:14:15 PM
A well-written article by a lady called Jennifer Cohagen. Well worth a read as it delves into some areas not yet discussed here: >> The Real Reason for War in Ukraine << (http://www.thicktoast.com/real-reason-for-war-in-ukraine/)



As usual, discussion on the article >>here<< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg399704#msg399704)

I have just read this entire Thick Toast article and as I am NO admireer of the Obamunist Marxist Social Justice Warriors who want to tax the USA into Zimbabwe economics... 

I am forced to state that this is one seriously racist bigoted and anti American piece of work.  Note a "Piece of Work" is also a USA colloquialism meaning the person who wrote it is well a total "piece of work".

Though some of their sentiments are shared by many US opponents of the administration I have to call BULL SHITE where it is due - first the $7.990 Trillion in resources have collapsed in Value:

Oil is no longer $100 a barrel
Coal is no longer $100 per tonne (Metric 1.1 Short Tons (2000 lb/short ton))
NatGaz is no longer $400 per 1000 cubic meters
Iron Ore is no longer $100 per tonne (Metric 1.1 Short Tons (2000 lb/short ton))

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=iron-ore

So current value of these (Donbass) commodities is perhaps $4T+/-

Blaming this all on the USA and it's multi nationals completely ignores the fact that the USA did less than $9B USD in trade with Russia and the EU is in the $200B+ range therefore the EU is far more invested in the FSU than is the USA.

The NATO stars across the Globe is incendiary to say the least - I doubt that Korea, Japan, and Uzbekistan agree they are hosting NATO bases...

The caricatures of Obama with big monkey ears and a monkey face in this "Think Toast" blog or I suppose highly regarded UK news source are blatantly racist and bigoted.

And this is from an avowed opponent of the Obamunists...

Article has a few good points to make that were all negated by their racist bigoted anti-American attitudes.  Rubbish really.

I could rebut this article paragraph by paragraph but the idea that the USA needs Ukraines natural resources is eclipsed by the truth that the EU is the largest regional trading block.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on March 08, 2015, 11:20:30 AM
The US finally admits that Russia has invaded Ukraine. Despite what many in the media, western and Russian, say official US government spokespersons have seldom used the word 'invasion' to describe Russia's efforts in Ukraine.

Obama administration officials across departments have strenuously avoided calling the conflict an invasion for months, instead performing verbal contortions to describe an “incursion”, “violation of territorial sovereignty” and an “escalation of aggression”.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/04/victoria-nuland-russia-actions-ukraine-invasion

Remember if you want to discuss informative articles like this it must be done, for some strange reason, >>here<< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg399704#msg399704)

Except nobody actually cares what Nuland or the US thinks in Europe.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on March 08, 2015, 11:46:35 AM
The US finally admits that Russia has invaded Ukraine. Despite what many in the media, western and Russian, say official US government spokespersons have seldom used the word 'invasion' to describe Russia's efforts in Ukraine.

Obama administration officials across departments have strenuously avoided calling the conflict an invasion for months, instead performing verbal contortions to describe an “incursion”, “violation of territorial sovereignty” and an “escalation of aggression”.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/04/victoria-nuland-russia-actions-ukraine-invasion

Remember if you want to discuss informative articles like this it must be done, for some strange reason, >>here<< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg399704#msg399704)

Except nobody actually cares what Nuland or the US thinks in Europe.  :biggrin:

And yet you keep claiming that the only reason Europe is imposing sanctions on Russia is because of pressure from the US. So Europe must very much care what the US thinks.

Also if Europe didn't care what the US thinks it would tell the US to take all its military equipment and go back home but that doesn't happen so again those in power in Europe must very much care what the US thinks. It's just common sense.  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on March 08, 2015, 12:01:00 PM
Quote from: Westy
The US finally admits that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

Lets look at the moment a squirming Nuland uses the word (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20905.msg400673#msg400673).

Old news really Westy. I posted this two days ago.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: ashbyclarke on March 08, 2015, 01:40:14 PM

Oil is no longer $100 a barrel

That's because of the US production, also even with falling Rig count on a monthly basis US production is at it's highest for decades.

It's either a bad case of mismanagement or there's a little more behind it, mismanagement with natural resources isn't something normally attributed to the US, least not it's own.

Still, I hear Putin has his culprits for the shooting in Moscow, surely something positive, no doubt these guys will get a fair trial  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sashathecat on March 08, 2015, 07:58:35 PM
The US finally admits that Russia has invaded Ukraine. Despite what many in the media, western and Russian, say official US government spokespersons have seldom used the word 'invasion' to describe Russia's efforts in Ukraine.

Obama administration officials across departments have strenuously avoided calling the conflict an invasion for months, instead performing verbal contortions to describe an “incursion”, “violation of territorial sovereignty” and an “escalation of aggression”.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/04/victoria-nuland-russia-actions-ukraine-invasion

Remember if you want to discuss informative articles like this it must be done, for some strange reason, >>here<< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg399704#msg399704)

Except nobody actually cares what Nuland or the US thinks in Europe.  :biggrin:

And yet you keep claiming that the only reason Europe is imposing sanctions on Russia is because of pressure from the US. So Europe must very much care what the US thinks.

Also if Europe didn't care what the US thinks it would tell the US to take all its military equipment and go back home but that doesn't happen so again those in power in Europe must very much care what the US thinks. It's just common sense.  :coffeeread:

The average person in Europe may not care, just like Joe six pack here in the US does not care about the EU, but I guarantee that the wealthy and those in power care a great deal. Europe cares, they really care.

Trans Pacific Partnership
Trade in Services Act
Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on March 09, 2015, 11:53:15 AM

Oil is no longer $100 a barrel

That's because of the US production, also even with falling Rig count on a monthly basis US production is at it's highest for decades.

It's either a bad case of mismanagement or there's a little more behind it, mismanagement with natural resources isn't something normally attributed to the US, least not it's own.

Still, I hear Putin has his culprits for the shooting in Moscow, surely something positive, no doubt these guys will get a fair trial  :chuckle:

Got to love the Euro logic here - mismanagement???  It is though technological proficiency and Production Efficiency were somehow a bad thing.  Fact is inflation is tied to the price of OIL and has been since the dawn of the automobile and internal combustion engine...

http://mythfighter.com/2010/04/06/more-thoughts-on-inflation/

Federal deficit spending doesn’t cause inflation; oil does

Lower inflation reduces the drop in value of your pay packet...

http://mythfighter.com/2014/11/24/inflation-hurts-so-why-not-deflation/

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on March 14, 2015, 11:11:50 AM
Russia will not be kicked out of the SWIFT system, much to the dismay of the US. It seems SWIFT have given Russia a seat on the board.

Quote
Now, SWIFT is technically organized as a ‘Cooperative Society’ and governed by a board of directors.

There are 25 available board seats, and each seat is allocated for a three-year term to a specific country.

The United States, Belgium, France, Germany, UK, and Switzerland each hold two seats. A handful of other countries hold just one seat. And of course, most countries don’t hold any seats at all.

Here’s what’s utterly hilarious—

On Monday afternoon, not only did SWIFT NOT kick Russia out… but they announced that they were actually giving a BOARD SEAT to Russia.

This is basically the exact opposite of what the US government was pushing for.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-12/wests-plan-drop-russia-swift-hilariously-backfires

I wonder who it was voted Russia in and who the competitors for the seat were. There would have been 24 votes and I expect that most of the 2 vote members would have voted against Russia, that suggests that most of the 1 vote members would have voted for Russia.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on March 14, 2015, 12:43:00 PM
This article (http://www.blacklistednews.com/Currency_Wars%3A_In_desperate_move,_SWIFT_adds_Russia_to_its_board_as_a_voting_member/42611/0/38/38/Y/M.html) says this:

Quote
Two days after China announced they were within months of implementing their own version of SWIFT to compete and perhaps overtake the U.S. dollar as the globally recognized reserve currency, the West does a U-Turn and has accepted Russia as a voting member of their financial messaging and interchange system.  This move on March 11 comes just months after the U.S. threatened the Eurasian oil giant with being locked out of SWIFT over the Ukraine conflict, and appears now to be an act of desperation as the dollar becomes less and less of a factor in global trade.

RT has much more detail however: http://rt.com/business/239581-swift-russia-board-traffic/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Slumba on March 14, 2015, 12:45:58 PM
This article (http://www.blacklistednews.com/Currency_Wars%3A_In_desperate_move,_SWIFT_adds_Russia_to_its_board_as_a_voting_member/42611/0/38/38/Y/M.html) says this:

Quote
Two days after China announced they were within months of implementing their own version of SWIFT to compete and perhaps overtake the U.S. dollar as the globally recognized reserve currency, the West does a U-Turn and has accepted Russia as a voting member of their financial messaging and interchange system.  This move on March 11 comes just months after the U.S. threatened the Eurasian oil giant with being locked out of SWIFT over the Ukraine conflict, and appears now to be an act of desperation as the dollar becomes less and less of a factor in global trade.

OK so what is the actual difference, in real terms, of USD capital flows?  Those stats are readily available, so, why does the article not quote it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on March 14, 2015, 01:19:47 PM
This article (http://www.blacklistednews.com/Currency_Wars%3A_In_desperate_move,_SWIFT_adds_Russia_to_its_board_as_a_voting_member/42611/0/38/38/Y/M.html) says this:

Quote
Two days after China announced they were within months of implementing their own version of SWIFT to compete and perhaps overtake the U.S. dollar as the globally recognized reserve currency, the West does a U-Turn and has accepted Russia as a voting member of their financial messaging and interchange system.  This move on March 11 comes just months after the U.S. threatened the Eurasian oil giant with being locked out of SWIFT over the Ukraine conflict, and appears now to be an act of desperation as the dollar becomes less and less of a factor in global trade.

OK so what is the actual difference, in real terms, of USD capital flows?  Those stats are readily available, so, why does the article not quote it.

According to CNBC about 80% of global trade is done in US dollars. The ruble will never be a top 5 currency, the yuan (China) probably will make it into the top 5 but not the ruble. Russia's just not a big enough trading partner to justify it.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102486926
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on March 14, 2015, 01:39:00 PM
Russia will not be kicked out of the SWIFT system, much to the dismay of the US. It seems SWIFT have given Russia a seat on the board.

Quote
Now, SWIFT is technically organized as a ‘Cooperative Society’ and governed by a board of directors.

There are 25 available board seats, and each seat is allocated for a three-year term to a specific country.

The United States, Belgium, France, Germany, UK, and Switzerland each hold two seats. A handful of other countries hold just one seat. And of course, most countries don’t hold any seats at all.

Here’s what’s utterly hilarious—

On Monday afternoon, not only did SWIFT NOT kick Russia out… but they announced that they were actually giving a BOARD SEAT to Russia.

This is basically the exact opposite of what the US government was pushing for.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-12/wests-plan-drop-russia-swift-hilariously-backfires

I wonder who it was voted Russia in and who the competitors for the seat were. There would have been 24 votes and I expect that most of the 2 vote members would have voted against Russia, that suggests that most of the 1 vote members would have voted for Russia.

No one voted Russia in, the SWIFT organization decided not to bow to political pressure.

Quote
Swift’s board is reconfigured about every three years with shares, and subsequently, seats allocated on the basis of network usage. On this basis, in 2015, Russia gains a seat and Hong Kong loses one; Belgium gains an additional seat giving it two and the Netherlands loses a seat giving it one.

Changes in traffic volumes could be due to a change of business hub by an international bank or the location of infrastructure, such as Euroclear in Belgium. But mostly, it reflects changes in economic growth and trade. Unsurprisingly, China gained a board seat in the last reallocation back in 2012.

As economic power shifts to the east, more such changes can be expected. As long as institutions such as Swift can continue to provide a framework with open access and even treatment, all parties will benefit. The alternative is to misuse the global financial architecture as a sanctions tool and end up with a more factional and divided world economy.


http://www.thebanker.com/Editor-s-Blog/Swift-s-Russian-board-director-is-not-a-political-decision 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on March 14, 2015, 08:33:00 PM
Considering I am a proponent of massively open free markets globally as the best path to mutual prosperity (Think Ron and Rand Paul) I am ecstatic that the SWIFT organisation told the Obamunists to go pack sand where the sun don't shine :8)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on March 15, 2015, 11:09:56 PM
America's Coup Machine: Destroying Democracy Since 1953

U.S. efforts to overthrow foreign governments leave the world less peaceful, less just and less hopeful.

Ukraine's former security chief, Aleksandr Yakimenko, has reported that the coup-plotters who overthrew the elected government in Ukraine, "basically lived in the (U.S.) Embassy.  They were there every day."  We also know from a leaked Russian intercept that they were in close contact with Ambassador Pyatt and the senior U.S. official in charge of the coup, former Dick Cheney aide Victoria Nuland, officially the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs.  And we can assume that many of their days in the Embassy were spent in strategy and training sessions with their individual CIA case officers.

To place the coup in Ukraine in historical context, this is at least the 80th time the United States has organized a coup or a failed coup in a foreign country since 1953........

http://www.alternet.org/world/americas-coup-machine-destroying-democracy-1953

Please be advised UK allied Coup Plotters remain unnamed so as to provide plausible deniability cover for #10 Downing Street.  Good Cop Bad Cop team what Oh Hip Hip Cheerio carry on.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on March 15, 2015, 11:38:45 PM
America's Coup Machine: Destroying Democracy Since 1953

U.S. efforts to overthrow foreign governments leave the world less peaceful, less just and less hopeful.

Ukraine's former security chief, Aleksandr Yakimenko, has reported that the coup-plotters who overthrew the elected government in Ukraine, "basically lived in the (U.S.) Embassy.  They were there every day."  We also know from a leaked Russian intercept that they were in close contact with Ambassador Pyatt and the senior U.S. official in charge of the coup, former Dick Cheney aide Victoria Nuland, officially the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs.  And we can assume that many of their days in the Embassy were spent in strategy and training sessions with their individual CIA case officers.

To place the coup in Ukraine in historical context, this is at least the 80th time the United States has organized a coup or a failed coup in a foreign country since 1953........

http://www.alternet.org/world/americas-coup-machine-destroying-democracy-1953

Please be advised UK allied Coup Plotters remain unnamed so as to provide plausible deniability cover for #10 Downing Street.  Good Cop Bad Cop team what Oh Hip Hip Cheerio carry on.

LOL I saw what you did here on the re-editing of my errata edited post  :censored: :evilgrin0002:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 01, 2015, 02:08:52 AM
I missed this little gem, but other Russian-couples in Netherlands pointed me to this little gem:

http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-eus-russia-sanctions-extended-to-end-2015-tusk-2015-3?IR=T

It appears the sanctions are now tied to the implementation of Minsk-II  , so if Kiev does NOT do its part, the sanctions will end towards Russia.

NAUGHTY, Markje,

You know VERY well the basis for the sanctions - I posted the European Commission's reasoning and specifics

Why to you persist in 'ignoring' what is in black and white and quoting from the press - rather than the horses mouth.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on April 01, 2015, 02:22:19 AM
I missed this little gem, but other Russian-couples in Netherlands pointed me to this little gem:

http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-eus-russia-sanctions-extended-to-end-2015-tusk-2015-3?IR=T

It appears the sanctions are now tied to the implementation of Minsk-II  , so if Kiev does NOT do its part, the sanctions will end towards Russia.

NAUGHTY, Markje,

You know VERY well the basis for the sanctions - I posted the European Commission's reasoning and specifics

Why to you persist in 'ignoring' what is in black and white and quoting from the press - rather than the horses mouth.
The basis for the start of the sanctions yes.

But it appears an END of the sanctions is now tied to Ukraine's performance as well.

And I think quoting Donald "The president" Tusk of the EU is pretty much the horses mouth.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 01, 2015, 02:37:41 AM

The basis for the start of the sanctions yes.

Phew, so we can agree Crimea is NOT 'forgotten' and is considered legally still part of Ukraine by the VAST majority of the UN.

But it appears an END of the sanctions is now tied to Ukraine's performance as well.

Yes.

And I think quoting Donald "The president" Tusk of the EU is pretty much the horses mouth.

Your thinking is irrelevant  :chuckle: He is only President - the member states voted..he's just the figurehead for another 2 years
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on April 01, 2015, 02:55:31 AM
Crimea is NOT 'forgotten' and is considered legally still part of Ukraine by the VAST majority of the UN.

Crimea is in Russia now. Who thinks what about that doesn't really matter now does it? Its done. It wont change.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on April 01, 2015, 03:24:12 AM
Sanctions aside, the important point about Minsk 2, unmentioned by most mass media outlets and those who feed them with 'news' and 'analysis' in the west is that much, indeed most, of the outcome of the Minsk 2 agreement is predicated upon actions taken by Ukraine.

The Novorossians were called upon to withdraw weapons and create their side of a zone of lower activity. This they have done. The next stages are down to the Kievans and those deadlines are already being broken.

As for sanctions, in one form or another they will continue for the indefinite future. The events in Ukraine were merely an excuse to impose them with the aim of weakening the Russian economy and the position of the government. Both those goals have failed. In any case they are now fully factored into the Russian economy and the economy is developing in a positive manner. More sanctions though are very unlikely, while the costs to the US are low there is a very significant cost to the EU and while this may well have been a part of US policy the EU is no longer minded to play beggar my neighbour when they can see that the game does not work.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 01, 2015, 05:20:58 AM


Crimea is in Russia now. Who thinks what about that doesn't really matter now does it? Its done. It wont change.

You are deluded as Markje. How many places - where the status is internationally unrecognised  - have you been to...

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 01, 2015, 05:32:41 AM
Sanctions aside, the important point about Minsk 2, unmentioned by most mass media outlets and those who feed them with 'news' and 'analysis' in the west is that much, indeed most, of the outcome of the Minsk 2 agreement is predicated upon actions taken by Ukraine.

The Novorossians were called upon to withdraw weapons and create their side of a zone of lower activity. This they have done. The next stages are down to the Kievans and those deadlines are already being broken.

As for sanctions, in one form or another they will continue for the indefinite future. The events in Ukraine were merely an excuse to impose them with the aim of weakening the Russian economy and the position of the government. Both those goals have failed. In any case they are now fully factored into the Russian economy and the economy is developing in a positive manner. More sanctions though are very unlikely, while the costs to the US are low there is a very significant cost to the EU and while this may well have been a part of US policy the EU is no longer minded to play beggar my neighbour when they can see that the game does not work.

An entertaining analysis from our 'expert' - NOT - on things relating to places he hasn't been to....

OF COURSE, the sanctions are there to punish - economically - those involved in undermining Ukraine's integrity. In this aspect the sanctions have been a spectacular success. They are a REACTION to military interference in a sovereign nation's affairs

I should check the status status of Russia's reserves - before you respond - how much is down to sanctions or the price of Oil is hard to define.

'novorossiyans' ... and Russia - are supposed to be letting the OSCE - monitor the border.

Your assertion that Kiev is the 'bad boy' - re breaching Minsk-2  - reflects your 'selective' reading of the situation.



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on April 01, 2015, 09:00:03 AM

Crimea is in Russia now. Who thinks what about that doesn't really matter now does it? Its done. It wont change.

You are deluded as Markje. How many places - where the status is internationally unrecognised  - have you been to...

The people voted. They chose overwhelmingly to join Russia in the face of a Ukraine puppet junta that is still bombing civilians a year later, supported by the EU and the US. The people in Crimea were saved from war by Russia. No wonder they celebrated a year ago.

(http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzAzLzE2LzY0L2NyaW1lYXJlZmVyLjIzYjRkLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTE0NDB4MTAwMD4KZQlqcGc/4b6d67b0/509/crimea-referendum-celebration-2.jpg)

Oh and again a year later.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on April 01, 2015, 09:33:09 AM
moby, now that you seem to have taken up westcoast's role as Googleexpert, perhaps you'd care to show us in just what manner Kiev has been forwarding its obligations under the Minsk 2 agreement?

Show us how they kept to their agreed deadline in respect of withdrawal of heavy weapons, show us how they have given unfettered access to OSCE monitors, show us how deadlines for opening of face to face negotiations in respect of the special status of Novorossia have been met by Kiev, show us how Kiev is once again meeting its obligations in respect of pensions and other social transfers to people living in Novorossia and as refugees in other countries.

Please show us these things.

Sadly, it is not possible because none of these commitments have been held to.

Moby, I understand that your current blitz of posting is likely a displacement activity for your current lack of gainful employment but do you really think that misleading people, or trying to do so, is productive or helpful?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on April 01, 2015, 05:24:43 PM
Looks like the Rooskies have other plans as well...  Not sure an air drop will do it and I don't think Obama will let them drill a test hole in a National Park - unless Lukoil or Gasprom start fracking here  :smokin: ??? :o

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russian-doctor-military-sciences-says-181400470.html

A Russian 'Doctor of Military Sciences' says Moscow should just nuke Yellowstone to catalyze the eruption of Yellowstone's super-volcano if tensions boil over...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 01, 2015, 05:53:57 PM

The people voted.

many didn't or were intimidated...


They chose overwhelmingly to join Russia..

The true figure - without the shenanigans - might have been 60-40, 65-35 ... a majority - not exactly overwhelming.  Bear in mind.. like N.Ireland most 'Russians' were planted there.. they are not the indigenous people.

in the face of a Ukraine puppet junta that is still bombing civilians a year later, supported by the EU and the US.

Your 'puppets' have been given a mandate - twice - in May and October of 2014....   and as for 'bombing civilians'..  You conveniently forget that 'concerned Russian' bombed the crap out of Grozny- for daring to NOT want be part of the RF...when there were only 22 percent eh. RU and now there's 2 percent.

This is why I cannot take the Kremlin seriously - they cry crocodile tears... This mess in UA is ninety percent a petulant single digit being raised at the west - for daring to back the demise of a corrupt leader - who most Oligarchs feared and who's removal was hugely popular - even in his own party.

Even Yanu' has gone on record stating he was mistaken in asking for RU 'help'

 
The people in Crimea were saved from war by Russia. No wonder they celebrated a year ago.

Utter BS.. if you've ever been to Crimea - you'd know that the RU military vastly outnumbered the UA presence and the UA military is no match for the Russians.

You DID watch how easy it was to surround the UA bases and negate any 'threat'...

Crimea was NEVER at 'risk'



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 01, 2015, 06:23:50 PM
moby, now that you seem to have taken up westcoast's role as Googleexpert,


Unlike you, Manny and TomT - I do know Crimea and Donbass intimately and have been there far more recently


I do not need to 'google' as I have acquaintances in Odessa, Nikolayev / Nikolayev, Sevastopol, Simferopol, Kherson, Dnipropetrovsk /Dnepropetrovsk, Mariupol, Krasnyi Luch, Horklivka/ Gorlovka, Donetsk and Lugansk/ Lugansk - as well as Kiev / Kiev. I have been to all these places - and more recently than you..of that I am sure...

These people represent a broad spectrum of differing opinions and offer experiences of real hardship and tragedy. Some now live in Russia, some fled the 'DNR/LR' in late April '14  - after intimidation or outright banditry.

I have dated and remained friendly with a eth RU journo who ended up in th capital of Ukraine and has -somehow - managed to steer her way through the various eras from Kuchma and the murder of Georgiy Gongadze - who was a colleague - to the present day - at one time running a news agency for a Russian born Oligarch

So, if you please - I think you are more likely the 'googler' - I listen / watch Russian News - from Pervy Kanal to Rain and Echo of Moscow and get feeds from a UA agency that tries to be objective.

You cannot begin to conceive how much I know and why.....  I have read your opinions and mostly shake my head in disbelief in your simplistic analysis.


perhaps you'd care to show us in just what manner Kiev has been forwarding its obligations under the Minsk 2 agreement?

Show us how they kept to their agreed deadline in respect of withdrawal of heavy weapons, show us how they have given unfettered access to OSCE monitors, show us how deadlines for opening of face to face negotiations in respect of the special status of Novorossia have been met by Kiev, show us how Kiev is once again meeting its obligations in respect of pensions and other social transfers to people living in Novorossia and as refugees in other countries.

Please show us these things.

Sadly, it is not possible because none of these commitments have been held to.

Moby, I understand that your current blitz of posting is likely a displacement activity for your current lack of gainful employment but do you really think that misleading people, or trying to do so, is productive or helpful?


Tomorrow, you will have my response  - not only re Minsk-2, but as to my 'status' re gainful employment. As usual ... you are - hilariously - wide of the mark.

I invite members to get the popcorn ready and someone will need to be in andrewfi's corner to throw in the towel for him  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on April 01, 2015, 06:38:43 PM
I my wildest Imagination I never thought I would have ever said this but Gawd how I love having Moby back.  Life has molded you into a real conservative Russophile raconteur.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on April 02, 2015, 12:58:17 AM
Utter BS.. if you've ever been to Crimea - you'd know that the RU military vastly outnumbered the UA presence and the UA military is no match for the Russians.
I've been there every year, Your statement is bullshit.

You DID watch how easy it was to surround the UA bases and negate any 'threat'...

Crimea was NEVER at 'risk'
It was easy because they never got orders to fight off the russians. Please read the news, it was plastered all over back then how the military complained they got 0 orders from kiev.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 02, 2015, 02:51:52 AM
I my wildest Imagination I never thought I would have ever said this but Gawd how I love having Moby back.  Life has molded you into a real conservative Russophile raconteur.
Sorry, Cuffy... you couldn't be more mistaken.

Using the term Russophile implies a dislike for Russians.

Please try not to confuse my long term distrust of the current leader and his motives..politically and enhancing his personal wealth and that of his supporting cronies with my strong positive feelings for the people and culture.

I grew up being indocrinated and believing the British were always right and the Irish were terrorists. Later, I realised that my planted people had oppressed the civil rights of the minority and that the Police were VERY biased.

My signature is a clue.

I have been going to many parts of the former USSR and have seen Ukrainians cry when temembering those who died fighting German Nazis. Many of these same people now want Russia to get out of their nation and respect their frontiers, such is the polarisation.

I have just come back from Russia... have seen how popular Putin is and these people aren't stupid.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 02, 2015, 02:55:57 AM
Utter BS.. if you've ever been to Crimea - you'd know that the RU military vastly outnumbered the UA presence and the UA military is no match for the Russians.
I've been there every year, Your statement is bullshit.

You DID watch how easy it was to surround the UA bases and negate any 'threat'...

Crimea was NEVER at 'risk'
It was easy because they never got orders to fight off the russians. Please read the news, it was plastered all over back then how the military complained they got 0 orders from kiev.
Could you please be specific as to how it could be BS ?  It was a combination of fact and opinion and a lot more realistic than your one-sided stance.

True, I haven't been to Crimea post Russian occupation,  but I do converse with people who are glad for the change but see how those who aren't are suffering.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 02, 2015, 06:42:52 AM

It was easy because they never got orders to fight off the russians. Please read the news, it was plastered all over back then how the military complained they got 0 orders from kiev.

Markje, kindly stop assuming I don't pay attention to various media sources. That Kiev did not order a reaction to it's forces predicament was hardly a surprise given the situation on the ground... outnumbered, surrounded and no chance of relief.

The British surrendered to the invading Argentines in the Falklands in April '82. It was a hopeless situation. As you can appreciate, many UA leaders were shocked that the Kremlin ordered such an action - and the Kremlin - initially  - denied their involvement.
 

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 02, 2015, 06:59:19 AM
As promised  - my response to andrewfi re Minsk 2



Show us how they kept to their agreed deadline in respect of withdrawal of heavy weapons, show us how they have given unfettered access to OSCE monitors, show us how deadlines for opening of face to face negotiations in respect of the special status of Novorossia have been met by Kiev, show us how Kiev is once again meeting its obligations in respect of pensions and other social transfers to people living in Novorossia and as refugees in other countries.

Please show us these things.

Sadly, it is not possible because none of these commitments have been held to.

Moby, I understand that your current blitz of posting is likely a displacement activity for your current lack of gainful employment but do you really think that misleading people, or trying to do so, is productive or helpful?

The agreement was achieved by being general - too general and BOTH sides have put their 'unique' interpretation on it and claimed / counter claimed breaches.

The lack of OSCE Monitor numbers and the FACT that BOTH sides have not been too keen to allow the OSCE unfettered access shows how fragile the agreement is.

Kiev has nationalist 'hawks' who want to ignore it's obligations as 'non constitutional' and elected opposition say it doesn't go far enough. You know all these things, but choose to focus on 'one side'.

Russia could so easily regulate effective border control, but chooses not to. That the OSCE have gone on record to complain that they are not given access to much of the border should speak volumes to someone seeking a peaceful resolution.

Unlike you, I WANT this latest attempt to prevent further civilian casualties to work.

It must be hard for Kiev to send money to an 'authority' who's aim was to be free of Ukraine - I understand the effect of not having pensions, etc., not paid during what was/ is a civil war.

Many people I know in Donbass speak of distrusting Kiev, not wanting to be part of Russia and regarding those controlling their region as thugs - they simply want a normal life.

We don't read enough about them.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on April 06, 2015, 09:39:24 PM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-with-russia-now-much-likelier-ukraines-leading-nazi-dimitri-yarosh-gets-american-weapons-and-support/5441152

There's a possibility things may take a turn for the worst in eastern Ukraine.

Seems only fair. Putin has right wing militias in Ukraine under the auspices of the Russian government.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on April 06, 2015, 09:47:25 PM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-with-russia-now-much-likelier-ukraines-leading-nazi-dimitri-yarosh-gets-american-weapons-and-support/5441152

There's a possibility things may take a turn for the worst in eastern Ukraine.

Seems only fair. Putin has right wing militias in Ukraine under the auspices of the Russian government.
I was reading today Russia is getting ready their 24th humanitarian aid convoy.
Usually there is an escalation of activity shortly after.
Most predictions are for the fighting to resume in late April.
Some areas the fighting hasn't stopped

http://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/on-anniversary-of-ukraine-war-shelling-still-shattering-lives/articleshow/46828234.cms
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on April 06, 2015, 10:07:30 PM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-with-russia-now-much-likelier-ukraines-leading-nazi-dimitri-yarosh-gets-american-weapons-and-support/5441152

There's a possibility things may take a turn for the worst in eastern Ukraine.

Seems only fair. Putin has right wing militias in Ukraine under the auspices of the Russian government.
I was reading today Russia is getting ready their 24th humanitarian aid convoy.
Usually there is an escalation of activity shortly after.
Most predictions are for the fighting to resume in late April.
Some areas the fighting hasn't stopped

http://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/on-anniversary-of-ukraine-war-shelling-still-shattering-lives/articleshow/46828234.cms

Wouldn't doubt it. Traditionally most truces don't last and only serve to let the respective parties rearm, bring in other needed supplies and equipment, manpower and to fortify occuppied areas. Putin doesn't yet have a land bridge to Crimea and for sure won't stop until that's achieved.

If current sanctions are all that the west is going to impose we can be fairly certain that once a land bridge to Crimea is achieved, a land bridge to the Moldovan border is next on the list.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on April 16, 2015, 04:25:05 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32332433

Putin condemns Kiev over 'blockade' of east Ukraine

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on April 17, 2015, 04:42:26 AM
I missed this little gem, but other Russian-couples in Netherlands pointed me to this little gem:

http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-eus-russia-sanctions-extended-to-end-2015-tusk-2015-3?IR=T

It appears the sanctions are now tied to the implementation of Minsk-II  , so if Kiev does NOT do its part, the sanctions will end towards Russia.

I think that the understanding is perhaps back to front oh!

In most respects the Minsk 2 accords are dependent upon activity from the Kievan side but there have been public announcements from stakeholders in Europe and the US that a failure of the accords will be held as a Russian responsibility. In addition, while, for now, Crimea is not hitting the headlines in respect of sanctions even if Minsk 2 is not further sabotaged by the Kievans and the negotiated outcomes are implemented then Crimea will be pushed forward again.

Russian planning is on the basis of sanctions being in place indefinitely.

The reality of the situation is this: The US suffers very little cost from sanctions against Russia, and may indeed see positive benefits from their imposition, benefits completely separate to the situation in Ukraine or Crimea. On the other hand Europe is already under the cosh in this regard and it is likely that one or more EU members will not vote to continue the sanctions.

So, no matter what is said in public about the sanctions their continuation, extension or cessation has nothing to do with the Minsk 2 outcome.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: GuppyCaptain on April 17, 2015, 10:11:05 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32332433

Putin condemns Kiev over 'blockade' of east Ukraine

 :censored: him! The nerve......

Also, how convenient of him to say that the perpetrators of Nemtsov's murder "might never be found". Yeah, shocking  (:)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on April 17, 2015, 10:15:53 AM
sighs

Andrewfi, continues to demonstrate HIS somewhat skewed interpretation of Minsk II...there were plenty of clues in my April 2 response to his earlier 'analysis' ...

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on April 24, 2015, 09:23:41 PM
An excellent article found by Tom Cat and posted in another topic: http://novorossia.today/us-training-nazis-western-media-providing-cover-2/


Manny, this one's for your enjoyment.
It's as if the author read your posts, and wrote this article.  :nod:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/04/u-s-train-nazi-troops-ukraine-starting-april-20th.html

U.S. to Start Training Nazi Troops in Ukraine, on April 20th, Hitler’s Birthday

Sorry Tom Cat April 20th is not about Hitler's Birthday anymore. April 20th now recognised as the big day to celebrate cannabis it is also known as 420 friendly. April 20th is a big day to smoke and celebrate the use of cannabis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29).

Ask any younger person about April 20th and the term 420 and marijuana is far more likely to be mentioned than Hitler's birthday.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on April 28, 2015, 12:33:59 PM
Take a hit of who?   :smokin:

Couldn't resist - can't touch the stuff - still test for it here on Cyber Security contracts - even though approved for medicinal/therapeutic use - Massataxitoya opening up "clinics" across the state - been some scandals regarding politicos fixing/hoarding permits and releasing them for substantial "donations".  Good old Beacon Hill pols.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 28, 2015, 05:37:11 PM
Quote
Just hold your territory, don’t go on offensive. There’s no help for the Russians there, no support – the locals hate them. Civilians have no jobs and no peace because of them. Everybody is dying from idleness and even from hunger. This is yet another Holodomor. Both in Lugansk and Donetsk. All this made me stutter for a couple of weeks. Now I’d like to fight for the other side. Against these people, not against the civilians. This is banditry, I can’t find no other name for it.
Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/war/1072016-latvian-rebel-tells-of-banditry-in-the-donbas.html

http://www.unian.info/war/1072016-latvian-rebel-tells-of-banditry-in-the-donbas.html

My girl has been telling me this all along. She is from Lugansk and still has famly and friends there. She feels that the number that have died from lack of medical care, poverty, and hunger far exceeds anything that has happen in relationship to the war. Most would leave but there is no place to go. The Ukraine has no money to help settle them else where. The corruption is worse than anything in the Ukraine and crime is out of control.

The Ukraine is better but not at all good. Poverty is way up and the government is total not able to help. Medications that were once paid for people are having to pay themselves. Pensions are worth much less and most people make much less money because of the currency losing value. The price of Gas and electric has gone way up. Though not as bad, people are dying in the Ukraine also because of this war due to the poverty and lack of medical care. It is not like the Ukraine could help in the DNR or LNR if it wanted to.

Someone posted an article in the DNR's newspaper that called the Ukraine a failed state. That may have some merit but it is not failed anything like the LNR and DNR has.

LNR and DNR have been shelling cities outside of their area. Ground activity has increased and it is thought they will soon be ready to add land and more people to this land of misery.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 05, 2015, 10:31:38 PM
Interesting how over 50 percent of those polled made the USA the nation where they most wanted to live ))

sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 05, 2015, 11:11:27 PM
Quote
There's really no way to sugarcoat it: The rest of world believes that the United States is the country that poses the greatest threat to world peace, beating out all challengers by a wide margin.

This is the conclusion of a massive world opinion poll conducted by Win/Gallup International and released at the close of 2013. The poll, which was first conducted in 1977, asked over 66,000 thousand people across 65 countries this year a variety of questions about the world, including which country they would most like to call home, whether or not the world is becoming a generally better place and which country poses the greatest threat to world peace.

The U.S. was voted the biggest threat by far, garnering 24 percent of the vote. Pakistan was a very distant second with 8 percent, followed by China (6 percent) and Afghanistan (5 percent).

Perhaps not surprisingly, Americans had a slightly different view of the international troublemakers, naming Iran the top threat. Yet while Afghanistan garnered the second-most votes among American respondents, they also voted the U.S. among the most threatening nations -- in an unenviable veritable tie for third place with North Korea.

Poll source: http://www.wingia.com/en/services/about_the_end_of_year_survey/global_results/7/33/

Article source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/greatest-threat-world-peace-country_n_4531824.html

The world will be overrun by ISIS sponsored by Saudi and Gulf Oil wealth anyway so the "world" can all go fook off and die.

The USA will always defend its and its allies interests - most of Manny's country men are happy that an extremely powerful USA considers Great Britain not only an ally but its moral authority so Manny's treasonous rants to his own crowns best interests not withstanding when Saudis and ISIS over run the EU and UK by 5 kids to each of 4 wives replacement birth rate (The Euros and Ukains will eventually be replaced - already happening in Moscow when calls to prayers shut down half the city's streets) well we still have plenty of nukes to take care of the problem.  Unfortunately mid east oil is a natural radiation shield.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 06, 2015, 03:47:49 AM


The world will be overrun by ISIS sponsored by Saudi and Gulf Oil wealth anyway so the "world" can all go fook off and die.

)))  You are so funny, Mike...  There's still plenty of Islamic nations wHere women go topless- and nearly 'bottomless' on the beach...

The USA will always defend its and its allies interests - most of Manny's country men are happy that an extremely powerful USA considers Great Britain not only an ally but its moral authority so Manny's treasonous rants to his own crowns best interests not withstanding when Saudis and ISIS over run the EU and UK by 5 kids to each of 4 wives replacement birth rate (The Euros and Ukains will eventually be replaced - already happening in Moscow when calls to prayers shut down half the city's streets) well we still have plenty of nukes to take care of the problem.  Unfortunately mid east oil is a natural radiation shield.

1/ it's UNITED KINGDOM

2/ It is not possible to bring in more than one wife, to the UK, now :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 08, 2015, 03:09:29 PM
I am told it is ONE wife and her three Sisters (sister wives that is)...  more than one way to skin a cat or EU, UK, USA and Oh Canada Immigration Regulations...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on May 08, 2015, 04:17:07 PM
There's still plenty of Islamic nations where women go topless- and nearly 'bottomless' on the beach...

Tell us five.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 08, 2015, 06:48:34 PM
There's still plenty of Islamic nations where women go topless- and nearly 'bottomless' on the beach...

Tell us five.

Er ah um hmmm yesiree those women are called TOURISTS!  ...and headless infidels if ISIS any where near by...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 09, 2015, 12:35:16 PM
I am told it is ONE wife and her three Sisters (sister wives that is)...  more than one way to skin a cat or EU, UK, USA and Oh Canada Immigration Regulations...

'I was told' - by a 'reliable source' is so often the 'excuse' of the idiot, Cuffy  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 10, 2015, 03:06:19 AM
There's still plenty of Islamic nations where women go topless- and nearly 'bottomless' on the beach...



Tell us five.

Just seen this...easy.. and I have photos to prove it ))

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7780/17394588201_91e3ea0bba_h.jpg)

1/ Turkey - taken less than two weeks ago
2/ Egypt
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia
4/ Jordan
5/ Morocco

If you include 'Turkish Rep of N.Cyprus' as a 'county' there's another...

Manny, you remind me of Cuffy... you base your notions about places / people without having BEEN there.


Edited to add:

Many of these places have private beaches - security guards at the entrance or secluded beaches - like many conservative Christian nations - dress code is common sense.






sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on May 10, 2015, 06:48:12 AM
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia

Sorry but Bali is not muslem they are hindu.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on May 10, 2015, 09:33:53 AM

1/ Turkey - taken less than two weeks ago
2/ Egypt
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia
4/ Jordan
5/ Morocco

1) is a secular country, not muslim, no matter how much Erdogan wants it to be.
2) Since Mubarak is gone there, the government is obviously too much in tatters to care about nude sunbathing by tourists.
3) Not muslim either, mentioned by others.
4) I can't comment, not been here.
5) Tripadvisor advises against it, as it is strictly forbidden. Never been here either.

So even if i have to forgo 2 as I have 0 experience, your list is deemed 'wanting'.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on May 10, 2015, 09:34:57 AM
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia

Sorry but Bali is not muslem they are hindu.

Bali itself may be Hindu but Bali is part of Indonesia and Indonesia is by far the most populous Islamic nation. Bali is rather famous for its nude beaches, especially with the Aussies. There was a bombing there a few years back, blamed on, what else Muslim terrorists. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 10, 2015, 09:50:28 AM
I am told it is ONE wife and her three Sisters (sister wives that is)...  more than one way to skin a cat or EU, UK, USA and Oh Canada Immigration Regulations...

'I was told' - by a 'reliable source' is so often the 'excuse' of the idiot, Cuffy  :chuckle:

Now that you have crossed the line to name calling - I have a dear business friend who was born in Pakistan and is highly educated in the USA and I was a witness on his Top Secret Background Investigation... he grew up in a land with the 4 wives system and has enlightened me on day to day family dynamics as he is a product of the system and has many brothers and sisters and cousins some from the same father and mother and some from the same father and different mothers and some from the same mother and different father - so the practical way it (multiple wives) works the result is the same; a replacement birthrate about 10 times higher than White Europeans.  He married a white European ancestry (Swedish) American and only has had one wife - he assimilated.

Since you decided to use the word idiot in reference to me I must say it belies a belligerent, bloviating, British air of superiority as a self assumed Brilliant analyst who therefore in complete arrogance considers everyone else besides himself as an idiot and is so undiplomatic as to tell them so to their face.

Good luck with that...

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 10, 2015, 09:59:09 AM

1/ Turkey - taken less than two weeks ago
2/ Egypt
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia
4/ Jordan
5/ Morocco

1) is a secular country, not muslim, no matter how much Erdogan wants it to be.
2) Since Mubarak is gone there, the government is obviously too much in tatters to care about nude sunbathing by tourists.
3) Not muslim either, mentioned by others.
4) I can't comment, not been here.
5) Tripadvisor advises against it, as it is strictly forbidden. Never been here either.

So even if i have to forgo 2 as I have 0 experience, your list is deemed 'wanting'.

So if you are on the confines of an exclusive resort targeted to foreign tourists as their primary customer base then the ladies can sun bathe topless - however if you go to the locals beaches or markets or whatever then traditional conservative dress is the (Sharia) law...  got it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 10, 2015, 01:01:02 PM
http://novorossia.today/the-first-stamp-was-issued-in-the-dpr-featuring-military-commanders-givi-and-motorola/

Givi, and Motorola are nothing more than war criminals, this goes to show how warped the values of the pro Russian population of eastern Ukraine have become.

It's looking like there will be a few of these individuals who will take controlling interest of eastern Ukraine, making it into a military state.
Those that supported the Russian side may come to regret when they are controlled by common thugs and murders.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on May 10, 2015, 06:24:32 PM
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia

Sorry but Bali is not muslem they are hindu.

Bali itself may be Hindu but Bali is part of Indonesia and Indonesia is by far the most populous Islamic nation. Bali is rather famous for its nude beaches, especially with the Aussies. There was a bombing there a few years back, blamed on, what else Muslim terrorists. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

Let me guess.  You have never been to Indonesia?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 10, 2015, 06:51:05 PM


1/ Turkey - is a secular country, not muslim, no matter how much Erdogan wants it to be.

and when were you last there ... ?  Mustafa Ataturk's legacy has been eroded by successive Erdogan victories. I think the flag and the mosques are also clues...

2/ Egypt - Since Mubarak is gone there, the government is obviously too much in tatters to care about nude sunbathing by tourists.


It's still an Islamic nation. Sharm and Hurghada aren't in the Coptic Christian region


 
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia

Sorry but Bali is not muslem they are hindu.

)))  Yankee,  last time I checked Bali was very much part of Indonesia - which is without question - prominently Islam

4/ Jordan -  I can't comment, not been here.

that's 4/ 4 so far..



5/ Morocco - Tripadvisor advises against it, as it is strictly forbidden. Never been here either.

Tripadvisor is made up of comments from people - some who are ignorant and then people like you believe them over someone who has seen with his own eyes....  Markje, there are closed resorts where you don't know you are in an Islamic nation



So even if i have to forgo 2 as I have 0 experience, your list is deemed 'wanting'.

Well, take from someone who has seen topless women in all these places  ..

It is 'amusing' to be told by folks who haven't been to places that you are 'wrong'..... :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 10, 2015, 06:53:35 PM


Now that you have crossed the line to name calling

Mike,

1/ 'idiot' was in parentheses

2/ My point was aimed at posters who quote second hand gossip

3/ did you note the chuckle ?


Chillax, bro
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on May 10, 2015, 08:12:30 PM
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia

Sorry but Bali is not muslem they are hindu.

Bali itself may be Hindu but Bali is part of Indonesia and Indonesia is by far the most populous Islamic nation. Bali is rather famous for its nude beaches, especially with the Aussies. There was a bombing there a few years back, blamed on, what else Muslim terrorists. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

Let me guess.  You have never been to Indonesia?

Of course I've been to Indonesia. I may not have been to Russia but I've been to most places in Asia - China, Hong Kong (before and after it reverted), Singapore, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia and a few other places.

However, IMHO Bali was a lot better and nicer before Islam became such a big deal in Indonesia. With local Muslim religious leaders in Muslim Indonesia decreeing that women should cover up,  no booze or any other vices and a stricter adherence to Islam much of Muslim Indonesia isn't tourist friendly, hence all partiers go the Bali area and trouble naturally follows.

The only reason Bali is still going with the nude beaches, booze and partying is because as you say it is mostly Hindu so Islam doesn't have as tight as grip as it has in many other places in Indonesia. However, since Indonesia is mostly Muslim, if the Muslims keep gaining power some have said it's only a matter of time until Bali comes under Muslim control by some means.

Don't know enough about how politics works in Indonesia to know if this is true.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on May 11, 2015, 05:07:14 AM

 
3/ Bali...part of Indonesia

Sorry but Bali is not muslem they are hindu.

)))  Yankee,  last time I checked Bali was very much part of Indonesia - which is without question - prominently Islam


Indonesia is a secular country and has  the largest muslim population in the world.  Bali is an exception and is not muslim.  You should spend some time there and you will learn.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on May 11, 2015, 05:43:00 AM
A side note for you.  In Indonesia there are four recognized religions. As such, it is not a muslim country. 

You will also see women breast feeding on the streets.  This is not an uncommon site.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Ste on May 11, 2015, 05:48:07 AM
A side note for you.  In Indonesia there are four recognized religions. As such, it is not a muslim country. 

You will also see women breast feeding on the streets.  This is not an uncommon site.

On pornhub* there's loads of muslim, arab, etc porn, they do it as well!! 

* err, so I've heard......

It's 'sight' btw in this context!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Dogsoldier on May 11, 2015, 05:53:08 AM
A side note for you.  In Indonesia there are four recognized religions. As such, it is not a muslim country. 

You will also see women breast feeding on the streets.  This is not an uncommon site.

On pornhub* there's loads of muslim, arab, etc porn, they do it as well!! 

* err, so I've heard......


It's 'sight' btw in this context!
I'm shoked.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Ste on May 11, 2015, 05:55:58 AM
A side note for you.  In Indonesia there are four recognized religions. As such, it is not a muslim country. 

You will also see women breast feeding on the streets.  This is not an uncommon site.

On pornhub* there's loads of muslim, arab, etc porn, they do it as well!! 

* err, so I've heard......


It's 'sight' btw in this context!
I'm shoked.  :chuckle:

Burka Blowjobs and Niquab nudes.....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 11, 2015, 07:18:22 AM

Indonesia is a secular country and has  the largest muslim population in the world.  Bali is an exception and is not muslim.  You should spend some time there and you will learn.

Sighs, I did say I had the photos to prove it .... nothing to 'learn' and Bali is still part of Indonesia - a province of -  Indonesia had a 87.2 percent  of Islamic population - source 2010 Indonesian census..granted Bali, is majority Hindu.

As Bali is proving controversial I'll add Maldives to the list, too... Markje will point out that you can find Tripadvisor reports saying it's a 'no, no' but in secure resorts it's not ....

Point being.. Manny asked for five nations and I've named more than five where I have personal proof that such pastimes are not uncommon .



 



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Dogsoldier on May 11, 2015, 08:07:07 AM
A side note for you.  In Indonesia there are four recognized religions. As such, it is not a muslim country. 

You will also see women breast feeding on the streets.  This is not an uncommon site.

On pornhub* there's loads of muslim, arab, etc porn, they do it as well!! 

* err, so I've heard......


It's 'sight' btw in this context!
I'm shoked.  :chuckle:

Burka Blowjobs and Niquab nudes.....
Does Nadia know of your......um, fetish?  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Ste on May 11, 2015, 08:08:21 AM
A side note for you.  In Indonesia there are four recognized religions. As such, it is not a muslim country. 

You will also see women breast feeding on the streets.  This is not an uncommon site.

On pornhub* there's loads of muslim, arab, etc porn, they do it as well!! 

* err, so I've heard......


It's 'sight' btw in this context!
I'm shoked.  :chuckle:

Burka Blowjobs and Niquab nudes.....
Does Nadia know of your......um, fetish?  ;D

Research, every morning at 8:30.....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on May 11, 2015, 08:17:06 AM

Indonesia is a secular country and has  the largest muslim population in the world.  Bali is an exception and is not muslim.  You should spend some time there and you will learn.

Sighs, I did say I had the photos to prove it .... nothing to 'learn' and Bali is still part of Indonesia - a province of -  Indonesia had a 87.2 percent  of Islamic population - source 2010 Indonesian census..granted Bali, is majority Hindu.

As Bali is proving controversial I'll add Maldives to the list, too... Markje will point out that you can find Tripadvisor reports saying it's a 'no, no' but in secure resorts it's not ....

Point being.. Manny asked for five nations and I've named more than five where I have personal proof that such pastimes are not uncommon .

Stay ignorant if you want to.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 11, 2015, 08:30:16 AM


Stay ignorant if you want to.


Specifically, What part of my response was inaccurate ...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on May 11, 2015, 09:54:11 AM


Now that you have crossed the line to name calling

Mike,

1/ 'idiot' was in parentheses

2/ My point was aimed at posters who quote second hand gossip

3/ did you note the chuckle ?


Chillax, bro

You are as honest as you are literate.

'I was told' - by a 'reliable source' is so often the 'excuse' of the idiot, Cuffy  :chuckle:

I'm pretty sure that Cuffy knows what parentheses are, but you don't.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Ste on May 11, 2015, 10:05:27 AM
I must admit there is a lot of illiteracy on this site, even with online spellchecking abounding, and it does seem to come mostly from the USA'ian side of the pond, not wishing to flame, seems to be a fact though...

I've done my fair share so to be fair so cannot criticise, but I correct the wriggly lines when I can, and what I know to be wrong.

Hard to take a 50/50 on this one....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 11, 2015, 12:49:18 PM


Now that you have crossed the line to name calling

Mike,

1/ 'idiot' was in parentheses

2/ My point was aimed at posters who quote second hand gossip

3/ did you note the chuckle ?


Chillax, bro

You are as honest as you are literate.

'I was told' - by a 'reliable source' is so often the 'excuse' of the idiot, Cuffy  :chuckle:

I'm pretty sure that Cuffy knows what parentheses are, but you don't.

+1 TomT - LOL I owe you an ice cold Craft beer of your choice!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on May 11, 2015, 12:54:12 PM
Research, every morning at 8:30.....

Some think of it as cranking the engine, getting the motor running.

From Nadia's point of view every one that you crank out for yourself is one that she doesn't have to bother herself with. :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cufflinks on May 11, 2015, 12:55:31 PM

Indonesia is a secular country and has  the largest muslim population in the world.  Bali is an exception and is not muslim.  You should spend some time there and you will learn.

Sighs, I did say I had the photos to prove it .... nothing to 'learn' and Bali is still part of Indonesia - a province of -  Indonesia had a 87.2 percent  of Islamic population - source 2010 Indonesian census..granted Bali, is majority Hindu.

As Bali is proving controversial I'll add Maldives to the list, too... Markje will point out that you can find Tripadvisor reports saying it's a 'no, no' but in secure resorts it's not ....

Point being.. Manny asked for five nations and I've named more than five RESORTS where I have personal proof that such pastimes are not uncommon .
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 11, 2015, 03:16:36 PM

Moby named more than five RESORTS ]

I named nations, Cuffy - I could name resorts approaching 50 plus places..within those nations.


I have personal experience of 2 more nations - I was only asked for five....  :nod:


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Donhollio on May 11, 2015, 10:51:53 PM
  There's still plenty of Islamic nations wHere women go topless- and nearly 'bottomless' on the beach...



Point being.. Manny asked for five nations and I've named more than five where I have personal proof that such pastimes are not uncommon .

 Manny must of jumped the gun and assumed you were talking about local Muzzie women taking their tops off. hmm, what's that phrase he uses when someone doesn't understand the written English word?  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on May 14, 2015, 09:43:23 PM
Senile old buggers are welcome in Ukraine.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-appoints-us-senator-mccain-presidential-aide-003503382.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on May 15, 2015, 01:53:59 AM
Senile old buggers are welcome in Ukraine.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-appoints-us-senator-mccain-presidential-aide-003503382.html

You couldn't make that up!

Quote
Kiev (AFP) - Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has appointed John McCain, a hawkish US senator who has pressed Washington to send lethal weapons to war-torn Ukraine, as his advisor, his administration said.

With the Hunter Biden bloke in the gas company, and two of his pals (one being John Kerry’s stepson) installed nearby, the takeover of the country and its assets is almost complete. Some sites put a Jewish spin (http://www.texemarrs.com/082014/biden_kerry_ukrain_gas.htm) on it, but Jewish or not, why are most people pretending such things are irrelevant?

These people are only involved for personal enrichment. Does anyone here believe they are there for the good of Ukraine?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on May 15, 2015, 11:53:51 AM
Cancel that.

http://rt.com/news/258913-mccain-ukraine-advisor-group/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 15, 2015, 01:57:54 PM
Senile old buggers are welcome in Ukraine.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-appoints-us-senator-mccain-presidential-aide-003503382.html

You couldn't make that up!

Quote
Kiev (AFP) - Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has appointed John McCain, a hawkish US senator who has pressed Washington to send lethal weapons to war-torn Ukraine, as his advisor, his administration said.

With the Hunter Biden bloke in the gas company, and two of his pals (one being John Kerry’s stepson) installed nearby, the takeover of the country and its assets is almost complete. Some sites put a Jewish spin (http://www.texemarrs.com/082014/biden_kerry_ukrain_gas.htm) on it, but Jewish or not, why are most people pretending such things are irrelevant?

These people are only involved for personal enrichment. Does anyone here believe they are there for the good of Ukraine?

Manny,
Ukraine has already brought in some people from the U.S., and most likely will bring in a few more.
At some point they will most likely bring in some form Europe as well.
Ukraine needs outsiders to give some credibility with corruption issues.
Many Ukrainians are pissed off outsiders are government employees, but this is all part of trying to get into the EU, as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on May 15, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
There is no EU for Ukraine. Did you not grasp that?

How does appointing relatives of pro war American politicians to a gas company assist "credibility with corruption issues"?

You lot will swallow any shite you are fed.

Do you need a photo of them with their hand in the cookie jar? Oh, forget that, you saw that already and thought it normal.  :coffeeread:

Imagine Putin and Lavrov turned up in Baltimore having a lot to say and talking about arming rioters? You would be all like "WTF are these people doing here?", yes?

Yet you imagine American interference and war in Europe is somehow credible?  :'(
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 15, 2015, 02:20:15 PM
There is no EU for Ukraine. Did you not grasp that?

How does appointing relatives of pro war American politicians to a gas company assist "credibility with corruption issues"?

You lot will swallow any shite you are fed.

Do you need a photo of them with their hand in the cookie jar? Oh, forget that, you saw that already and thought it normal.  :coffeeread:

Imagine Putin and Lavrov turned up in Baltimore having a lot to say and talking about arming rioters? You would be all like "WTF are these people doing here?", yes?

Yet you imagine American interference and war in Europe is somehow credible?  :'(

Your missing the point of the desperation Poroshenko is in. The country is bankrupt. The future is not looking good for many years to come.
Putting on a show will buy a little time.this is the best he can hope for.
I expressed my opinion from the beginning , that Ukraine should not have allowed the U.S.to interfere.
You will see even more stupidity in the coming months.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on May 15, 2015, 02:52:43 PM
You will see even more stupidity in the coming months.

The stupidity is certain to continue. I expect that the separatists will respond by extending their border to highway H20, denying K'yiv the rail service to Mariupol and setting the stage for an encirclement. There is a score to settle with the Azov battalion and it's not going to be pretty.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2015, 10:48:43 AM
   Video with Texas, he's a real Texan fighting with the pro Russians.



http://novorossia.today/the-militia-texas-odessa-will-be-our-city-the-novorossia-s-army-is-going/




 
 

If he survives will he face prosecution when he returns to the US like those going to the Middle East to join ISIS?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 16, 2015, 11:33:25 AM
   Video with Texas, he's a real Texan fighting with the pro Russians.



http://novorossia.today/the-militia-texas-odessa-will-be-our-city-the-novorossia-s-army-is-going/




 
 

If he survives will he face prosecution when he returns to the US like those going to the Middle East to join ISIS?

Doubtful this guy has the brain capacity to have ever thought about consequences.

The minsk agreement as long as it's in force, would protect him from criminal prosecution.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2015, 11:56:31 AM
   Video with Texas, he's a real Texan fighting with the pro Russians.



http://novorossia.today/the-militia-texas-odessa-will-be-our-city-the-novorossia-s-army-is-going/




 
 

If he survives will he face prosecution when he returns to the US like those going to the Middle East to join ISIS?

Doubtful this guy has the brain capacity to have ever thought about consequences.

The minsk agreement as long as it's in force, would protect him from criminal prosecution.

It's my understanding that the Minsk 2 Agreement only protects participants from countries that have signed the agreement. IMHO that's one of the reasons why Russia is a signatory even though Putin says Russian forces aren't operating in Ukraine.

By signing Russia is protecting its soldiers from prosecution by the Ukrainian authorities or 3rd party authorities on the off chance things go wrong and Russian soldiers are captured in Ukraine and proved to be Russian. The US is not a signatory so no such protection is extended to Americans fighting in Ukraine on either side.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 16, 2015, 12:21:43 PM
Westy, this would most likely clear all participants, after all both sides have hired guns.

5 Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on May 16, 2015, 12:25:04 PM
Westy, this would most likely clear all participants, after all both sides have hired guns.

5 Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts of Ukraine.

You are being silly.  You can be damn sure that if the Obama administration captures this Texas guy, provided he lives and makes it back to the USA, he will spend a good deal of time in prison.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2015, 01:14:21 PM
Westy, this would most likely clear all participants, after all both sides have hired guns.

5 Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts of Ukraine.

Tom Cat you're American you know even better than me that the US doesn't tend to follow any international laws, treaties, etc that haven't been vetted by Congress. The US government doesn't like to be told what to do by foreign governments or organizations.

Nothing in Minsk 2 has been enacted by the US federal government. I'm certainly not saying this means any American will be prosecuted for fighting for either side but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. After all the US government has prosecuted those fighting for or aiding ISIS so prosecuting someone for fighting for Putin's puppets wouldn't be a stretch. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 16, 2015, 02:04:37 PM
Westy, this would most likely clear all participants, after all both sides have hired guns.

5 Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts of Ukraine.

You are being silly.  You can be damn sure that if the Obama administration captures this Texas guy, provided he lives and makes it back to the USA, he will spend a good deal of time in prison.

Would be curious to what charges?
Many hired guns work in foreign countries, as long as he claims income he should be fine.
Other than calling Obama a monkey, he made no terrorist threat against the U.S..

If stupidity is a crime, the U.S.couldn't build enough prisons to keep up.
For all we know this was just a poor attempt at a propaganda video.
If he's for real, it's doubtful he will be alive to find out his fate.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 16, 2015, 04:17:31 PM
Interview with Texas, he came to Ukraine thru Russia, using Facebook for contacts.
Surprising he's not speaking English in this interview.
This has to be some propaganda :censored:

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on May 16, 2015, 04:39:02 PM
Interview with Texas, he came to Ukraine thru Russia, using Facebook for contacts.
Surprising he's not speaking English in this interview.
This has to be some propaganda :censored:


Could be a PR campaign aimed at those in Central and South America. Trying to reach out to strength ties between the DPR and sympathizers in Spanish speaking parts of the world.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 27, 2015, 05:59:27 PM
I posted this article here the other day, but was moved to western propaganda thread.
The novorossiya response is the other link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/05/25/what-people-in-southeast-ukraine-really-think-of-novorossiya/

http://novorossia.today/the-washington-post-what-people-in-southeast-ukraine-really-think-of-novorossiya/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 28, 2015, 02:44:45 AM
indeed ..why move stuff .....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on May 28, 2015, 10:22:40 AM
I posted this article here the other day, but was moved to western propaganda thread.
The novorossiya response is the other link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/05/25/what-people-in-southeast-ukraine-really-think-of-novorossiya/

http://novorossia.today/the-washington-post-what-people-in-southeast-ukraine-really-think-of-novorossiya/

Read the topic title, this topic is for discussion on links posted here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.0

It is not for other stuff. Other stuff is liable to be moved to a more appropriate topic.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 28, 2015, 04:20:01 PM
May be it's me breathing the Manchester air, but your response makes no sense to me...

PS not stalking :chuckle: but life keeps bringing me across your path.. was with Latvian and Lithuanian RU folk living not far from MV ..
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 28, 2015, 04:36:49 PM
I posted this article here the other day, but was moved to western propaganda thread.
The novorossiya response is the other link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/05/25/what-people-in-southeast-ukraine-really-think-of-novorossiya/

http://novorossia.today/the-washington-post-what-people-in-southeast-ukraine-really-think-of-novorossiya/

Read the topic title, this topic is for discussion on links posted here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21492.0

It is not for other stuff. Other stuff is liable to be moved to a more appropriate topic.

Both threads read the same after a few beers. :biggrin:
Even if you feel most articles I post are western propaganda, I also post articles from the Russian side on the same subject when ever I can find them.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on May 30, 2015, 08:08:29 AM


Ukrainian president visits Donetsk region

on: May 30, 2015Petr Poroshenko has pledged to pay $240,000 to the areas controlled by Kiev in the Donetsk region, the 112.ua TV channel has reported.Ukrainian President Petr Poroshenko has arrived on a working visit to Donbass, the Ukrainian leader’s press service said on Friday.“Ukrainian President Petr Poroshenko has begun a working trip to the Donetsk region,” the statement said.Poroshenko has pledged to pay 5 million hryvnia ($240,000) to the areas controlled by Kiev in the Donetsk region, the 112.ua TV channel has reported.Speaking to the employees of a machine-building plant in Kramatorsk, in eastern Ukraine, Poroshenko reiterated that he would hold a dialogue “only with those persons who will be elected by the Donetsk region citizens at the upcoming local polls.”Poroshenko told the 8th Kiev security forum on Thursday that he would hold a dialogue only with “the other Donbas.” Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk also said Kiev was ready to talk to the DPR and LPR leaders “only when they are behind bars.”The Donetsk republic’s envoy at the Minsk talks, Denis Pushilin, expressed concerns over this Ukrainian leader’s statement saying it comes ahead of the June 2 meeting of the Contact Group.“Poroshenko by his statements denounces his signature that he put in Minsk upon the guarantees of Germany and France and announced plans to comply with the Minsk agreements. Now he says that he is not going to do this,” Pushilin said.

http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-president-visits-donetsk-region/

Tom Cat, this is just more of the same. The same ideas and almost identical words have been used before. The Minsk 2 agreement has already failed because the Kievan administration is not following their commitments under the accord. I am sure that the timing is no accident.

Get the derisory amount of money mentioned, enough to build a decent house, no more.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 30, 2015, 08:41:06 AM
Tom Cat, this is just more of the same. The same ideas and almost identical words have been used before. The Minsk 2 agreement has already failed because the Kievan administration is not following their commitments under the accord. I am sure that the timing is no accident.

Get the derisory amount of money mentioned, enough to build a decent house, no more.

IMHO, Poroshenko wants the war to resume. There's been ample time to negotiate for a peaceful settlement.  Instead Poroshenko seems insistent on provoking, and escalating the situation to portray Ukraine as the victim

The minsk 2 , has not been a total failure. It's given both sides time to regroup, and prepare for the next offensive.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on May 30, 2015, 12:29:33 PM
Poroshenko appointed a governor for Odessa who has considerable experience in losing land to Russia.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-president-appoints-ex-georgia-leader-saakashvili-governor-131316539.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on May 30, 2015, 12:42:15 PM
Poroshenko appointed a governor for Odessa who has considerable experience in losing land to Russia.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-president-appoints-ex-georgia-leader-saakashvili-governor-131316539.html

I thought that Saakashvili was 'wanted' in Georgia?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on May 30, 2015, 01:33:31 PM
^ Mikheil is a perfect fit for Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on May 30, 2015, 02:11:07 PM
Tom Cat, this is just more of the same. The same ideas and almost identical words have been used before. The Minsk 2 agreement has already failed because the Kievan administration is not following their commitments under the accord. I am sure that the timing is no accident.

Get the derisory amount of money mentioned, enough to build a decent house, no more.

IMHO, Poroshenko wants the war to resume. There's been ample time to negotiate for a peaceful settlement.  Instead Poroshenko seems insistent on provoking, and escalating the situation to portray Ukraine as the victim

The minsk 2 , has not been a total failure. It's given both sides time to regroup, and prepare for the next offensive.

To be perfectly honest I think that Poroshenko would follow through on Minsk 2 if he were allowed to do so. Remember he does not run the country, Yatseniuk as premier does. In addition I think that the power behind the throne is the US and it does not suit the US to allow matters to cool down.

I doubt that the. Kiev regime can mount a convincing offensive at this time. We will move to a model where the Novorossians will remain within the current borders and will be forced to strengthen the foundations of statehood. Ukraine, as a whole will be a costly thorn in the foot for Russia and that'll suit the US for the next few years.

I still think we will see a devolution to warlordism and local fiefdoms of which Novorossia will be the largest and most successful. Ask me why and I will say 'its about economics'.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 30, 2015, 03:55:54 PM
Poroshenko appointed a governor for Odessa who has considerable experience in losing land to Russia.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-president-appoints-ex-georgia-leader-saakashvili-governor-131316539.html

Could you explain which territory was lost under Saakashvili's Presidency?

I mean you've been to this part of the world and would know better ? ....

Suggest you might like to read up on S.Ossetia and Abkhazia and revert ...


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 30, 2015, 04:10:16 PM

To be perfectly honest

 :chuckle: more irony from andrewfi ..



I think that Poroshenko would follow through on Minsk 2 if he were allowed to do so. Remember he does not run the country, Yatseniuk as premier does. In addition I think that the power behind the throne is the US and it does not suit the US to allow matters to cool down.


Your assessment of UA realpolitik is about as accurate as the data you supplied to 'support' your failed attempt to launch your 'report' on the 'death of the Russian Bride' to coincide with the late launch of the PLM...;)

Minsk2 was a desperate attempt to end violence and the fact that the 'separatists' continue to expand their territory and the OSCE cannot monitor all the border crossings makes it clear who is the main problem.

Poroshenko is a realist and if you cared to listen to him speak  - you'd realise he has often admitted that UA cannot - military - regain it's territory... you would only try to dispute what is clear to most unbiased observers - that they are not fighting Ukrainians who seek autonomy or independence.




I doubt that the. Kiev regime can mount a convincing offensive at this time. We will move to a model where the Novorossians will remain within the current borders and will be forced to strengthen the foundations of statehood. Ukraine, as a whole will be a costly thorn in the foot for Russia and that'll suit the US for the next few years.

It's Kiev in English, now, and the 'separatists' have no 'borders' and cannot confine themselves to the regions of Ukraine they occupy and agreed to stay within under Minsk 2.

 
I still think we will see a devolution to warlordism and local fiefdoms of which Novorossia will be the largest and most successful. Ask me why and I will say 'its about economics'.

and I would say it's about military might and mock you ...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on May 31, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
With Kerry in Sochi and Nuland in Moscow, Bryan MacDonald on RT suggests the US is dumping Poroshenko Nuland in Moscow: Squeaky bum time for Kiev? (http://rt.com/op-edge/260485-nuland-moscow-ukraine-poroshenko/)


Other than lip service how can you dumped someone we never really helped? Russia seems to be dumping the LPR and DPR as it has become one of the worlds worse humanitarian crisis. Russians complain about the Ukraine not  paying it bills. Hell, the Ukraine would sometime pay something the LPR and DPR do not pay for anything and most likely never will. Just what Russia is going to want is a large separate state that will always need aid and never pay for anything. But that is also what they have with the Ukraine. Now the Ukraine can not pay for anything neither. It looks like the Ukraine is going to go broke and Russia is going to have to eat tens of billions of debt on top of billions of aid to the LPR and DPR.  All other options Russia has cost it more money.

Mean while China is expanding off shore to where they will not need so much Russian gas if they can gety away with it. What is Moscow going to do if they can not sell gas in Europe or China?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on June 01, 2015, 03:31:36 PM
With Kerry in Sochi and Nuland in Moscow, Bryan MacDonald on RT suggests the US is dumping Poroshenko Nuland in Moscow: Squeaky bum time for Kiev? (http://rt.com/op-edge/260485-nuland-moscow-ukraine-poroshenko/)

I doubt Nuland, and Poroshenko are in agreement, as to what direction Ukraine is heading.

The Ukrainian military has become more aggressive in the last couple weeks. Every day there are accusations of the Ukrainian military violating the treaty. But then there are accusations from the other side as well.

I think you are probably right.

Poroshenko was installed in Ukraine to do a job. He had targets. He hasn't met them. His cohorts have applied the usual imaginative virement to incoming funds.

The US hasn't been able to achieve their objectives in sparking the crisis in Ukraine. Russia hasn't been brought to heel; the EU is hurting as sanctions cut two ways. To avoid a frozen conflict for years to come, something had to give. It wasn't going to be Russia.

On eastern Ukraine, the US has thrown in the towel. Russia has won the battle, put not yet perhaps the war (Macedonia is yet to come). I think >>this article: US throws Ukraine under the bus<< (http://thomascainreport.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/us-throws-ukraine-under-bus-held-secret.html?view=magazine) pretty much sums up where we are now.

From the article:

Quote
Victoria Nuland proffered Russia a surprising turnabout settlement to end the Ukrainian hostilities.  The proposal includes complete autonomy for eastern Ukraine, allowing eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as a self ruled, nation.  Further, Nuland proposed to remove Petro Poroshenko as Ukraine’s president by backing a new president that both Russia and the United States would agree upon.

It is expected by both Russia and the United States that efforts to remove Petro Poroshenko from office is currently underway.  As long as the civil war prolongs the EU, Russia, and the United States will continue to lose money in the tune of billions of dollars.

Publicly the United States is telling the world that Russia is the aggressor and to put an end to Russian sanctions depends on Russia reigning in the Russian Freedom Fighters.  Privately the United States gives a rat’s ass about eastern Ukraine.  A quick settlement to the Ukraine civil war is in the West’ favor, and the US is proposing to Russia a way for the West and Russia to save face with Russia occupying troops in eastern Ukraine.

Petro Poroshenko will be forced to accept the deal under threat of facing crimes against humanity in the International Criminal Court in the Netherlands.  Further meetings between Russia and the United States are expected to flourish through out 2015.  It appears that Petro Poroshenko’s days as a wannabe Nazi dictator is rapidly approaching an end.

The president of China at Putin's elbow at the Victory Day parade, Chinese army participating in the VD parade, Russian army invited to China for a similar parade, new oil/gas deals, joint military operations right now in the Med and active de-dollarisation are all discreet Chinese signals to show Nuland & Co where China sits. Next to Russia as always. With a burgeoning China/Russia friendship, US aggression is going nowhere fast. Russia has underlined this in recent days with an incident in the Black Sea (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russian-military-jets-and-us-destroyer-clash-in-black-sea-posing-danger-to-stability-10287303.html) to dissuade US aggression in the region, and a ban on 89 EU politicians from Russia (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/30/russia-entry-ban-european-politicians-eu-moscow) to make the EU have a little think. One-Nil to Russia. Shame it took thousands to die in Ukraine to deter the US/EU.

The US needs a fast face-saving exit from Ukraine. ISIS will be a more pressing issue, and one where the US may need some help from Russia and possibly even China to clear up the mess that the US created there.

That is now just starting to dawn on Washington. Obama doesn't want to leave office and go down in history as being the guy whose government funded and caused a civil war that will still be festering in Europe after he has gone. He wants to be known as the president who pushed back ISIS and topped Bin Laden.

America now needs the Ukraine issue to go away. Removal of sanctions and delivery of the two warships from France will be on the list of Russia's demands to help facilitate that. That may yet take some months.

Roshen chocolate bar anyone?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Konfushus on June 01, 2015, 04:06:18 PM
Quote
Victoria Nuland proffered Russia a surprising turnabout settlement to end the Ukrainian hostilities.  The proposal includes complete autonomy for eastern Ukraine, allowing eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as a self ruled, nation.  Further, Nuland proposed to remove Petro Poroshenko as Ukraine’s president by backing a new president that both Russia and the United States would agree upon.

No surprise here. Were you expecting a different outcome? You don't seem to realise that the US and Russia are allies in this. Nuland assisted Russia to create the situation that Putin needed and now the plans are coming to a close.

Quote
Publicly the United States is telling the world that Russia is the aggressor and to put an end to Russian sanctions depends on Russia reigning in the Russian Freedom Fighters.  Privately the United States gives a rat’s ass about eastern Ukraine.
Ummm... publicly the US gives a rat's ass about Ukraine. The situation there is last page news unless you get your 'news' from entertainment news channels like CNN or Fox. Most Americans I know believe Russia was justified in reclaiming Crimea and fully understand how this situation will end. Of course, they don't get their information from shows geared towards fanatics and old fogies who think the cold war is still going on.

LOL about Obama caring about his image over the situation in Ukraine though. The goofball is a clown and politician-entertainer, not a man of power. He's more concerned with sitting between two ferns, his golf handicap and reading mean tweets than he is with Ukraine. He knows the US isn't watching that.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on June 01, 2015, 04:30:53 PM
Quote
Victoria Nuland proffered Russia a surprising turnabout settlement to end the Ukrainian hostilities.  The proposal includes complete autonomy for eastern Ukraine, allowing eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as a self ruled, nation.  Further, Nuland proposed to remove Petro Poroshenko as Ukraine’s president by backing a new president that both Russia and the United States would agree upon.

No surprise here. Were you expecting a different outcome?

I was expecting that outcome eventually, but not in the way it seems to be happening.

You don't seem to realise that the US and Russia are allies in this. Nuland assisted Russia to create the situation that Putin needed and now the plans are coming to a close.

That is an interesting comment. I'd be interested to read more of your thoughts on that?

Most Americans I know believe Russia was justified in reclaiming Crimea and fully understand how this situation will end.

Most Americans here seem to think the opposite. Perhaps our contributors are not typical. Or perhaps you move in different circles.

LOL about Obama caring about his image over the situation in Ukraine though. The goofball is a clown and politician-entertainer, not a man of power. He's more concerned with sitting between two ferns, his golf handicap and reading mean tweets than he is with Ukraine. He knows the US isn't watching that.

I think he means well, but is merely a figurehead of an underlying machine. I agree it would be a stretch to call him a statesman though.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on June 01, 2015, 05:07:21 PM
Other than lip service how can you dumped (sic) someone we never really helped?

According to Victoria Nuland, the U.S. invested $5B in that shithole.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Konfushus on June 01, 2015, 05:20:02 PM
That is an interesting comment. I'd be interested to read more of your thoughts on that?
Well, I'll try to be brief. I grew up around politicians in the US. My wife grew up around businessmen,'roof' and local politicians in Russia. They're all about the same.

From the Russian side, Putin has wanted to annex Crimea and secure an accompanying land bridge for years now, long before the current events took place. The powerful people we meet up with have been laying plans since before the Winter Olymypics and have their Crimean purchases lined up. They piled up US dollars in Dubai in 2012-2013 and doubled their rubles last December. Crimean property is going to be selling cheap, in rubles and not to Europeans who've been sanctioned out of the equation.

There's more to it including the Islamification of our part of Russia and a new home needed for our 'roof', but that's the gist of it.

Russia couldn't just walk in and take Crimea had there not been a shift in power in Ukraine. That shift was assisted by the US, and Nuland who is a Russophile was a good choice of facilitator. Do you think she was kidding when she said ' :censored:  the EU'?

Quote
Most Americans here seem to think the opposite. Perhaps our contributors are not typical. Or perhaps you move in different circles.
By here do you mean the UK or a small group of dudes chasing Ukrainian tail that post on this forum? Sorry to say, the situation in Ukraine is just not hot news in the US unless you're watching 24 hour propaganda channels from your rest home.

Most Americans are focued on local issues such as out of control cops, buying pot at Costco and gay marriage. Whatever happens with Russia and Ukraine won't be attached to Obama here once he's stepped down. He'll be remembered more for his wife's hot workout and his comedy routines.

Yes, Obama is just the figure head of a machine. The machine wants us peasants to believe that the US, Russia and China are in conflict. We all need an enemy. US needs ISIS. Russia needs the US. Conflict, fear and confusion lines the pockets of the machine world wide and the machine will keep on rolling.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on June 01, 2015, 07:42:03 PM
Other than lip service how can you dumped (sic) someone we never really helped?

According to Victoria Nuland, the U.S. invested $5B in that shithole.

Over many years we sent them 5 Billion of our junk having nothing to do with this war and then we sent a little more in Junk none lethal used military equipment. Most of this stuff was just US waste. We are very good at making waste. Then we like to stick our chest out and pretend we gave someone something. The Ukraine not very happy with the lack of US support.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on June 01, 2015, 11:34:08 PM
Yes, Obama is just the figure head of a machine. The machine wants us peasants to believe that the US, Russia and China are in conflict. We all need an enemy. US needs ISIS. Russia needs the US. Conflict, fear and confusion lines the pockets of the machine world wide and the machine will keep on rolling.

 :sick0012:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Konfushus on June 02, 2015, 02:00:13 AM
I agree with the :sick0012:, but that's reality as I see it. Do you disagree with my statement?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on June 02, 2015, 06:57:21 AM
I confess that the Thomas Cain article looks like a bunch of twaddle. It does not fit the visible evidence.

Firstly, if a 'deal' were offered to Russia the there'd be a price to pay. No mention of that. So, if this deal were real and accepted then far from being a face-saver for the US it'd look like an embarrassing climbdown,

Secondly, such a deal would fly in the face of existing treaties that the US does not have the power to abrogate alone, although, for sure they'd be able to get agreement from some parties - there's been no sign of such activity.

Thirdly, since the Sochi, Moscow and Kiev meetings the Ukrainians have taken steps that fly in the face of such any willing acceptance of the idea of a land access across southern Ukraine.

Since the meetings took place the Kiev authorities have:
1) Ended cooperation with Russia in respect of access to Transniestra, effectively blockading the enclave to Russian access.
2) In anticipation of Russian overflights to service the region S300 air defence units have been installed near Odessa.
And
3) As strong evidence that these actions are undertaken with US agreement or, more likely, at their behest Poroshenko has appointed the US' representative, Sakaashvili as governor of the Odessa region. Whatever strengths and weaknesses he may have, he will not be any part of a cooperation with Russia.

If there were to be a deal granting autonomy to the DPR/LPR that would not solve the Ukraine problem or the Transniestrian one which has been bubbling along waiting for the right time to come to the boil.
The moves by Ukraine, which are almost certainly at the behest of the US, are a very strong provocation to Russia because the enclave is landlocked and currently Moldova is doing what it can to blockade its side of the border and, even if Moldova went toward the Russian side, which is a real possibility, Moldova itself is landlocked and surrounded by states that are not going to be willing to enable Russian access to the area.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on June 02, 2015, 09:52:12 AM
Self-appointed advocate of new Ukraine’: Soros emails leaked by anti-Kiev hackers

http://rt.com/news/264037-soros-ukraine-poroshenko-leak/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on June 02, 2015, 09:59:11 AM
I agree with the :sick0012:, but that's reality as I see it. Do you disagree with my statement?

Not entirely.  I will say this:  I find it very fascinating that those pushing conspiracy theories (and I know some of them are indeed true) do not believe in God or a higher power.

Why would I write that you say?  Because I believe God works in mysterious ways.  In other words there are a lot of good men and women, from the common soldiers to the Company commanders all the way up to the Generals, who believe in their mission and believe they are fighting on the side of justice.

Before somebody pooh poohs me, there is plenty of evidence that common soldiers have helped regular people in Afghan villages and when we were in Iraq, there as well.

You are speaking of some sort of cabal between the military-industrial complex and perhaps some elite bankers (anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that war can be very profitable for certain elite persons and the companies they do the bidding of).

I am simply not as cynical as you are; however there might be two groups which are working in parallel -- this elite cabal you speak of which seems to be evil incarnate, and the rest of the people doing their best to serve their countries in an honorable fashion and do some good in the process.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Boris on June 02, 2015, 12:00:53 PM
As I said many, many months before we were never going to fight over Ukraine. The average American could give a crap less about Ukraine and Crimea--most have no idea where they are located on a map and most that can just consider them an historic part of greater Russia anyway. Just the usual posturing against someone we see as competing with our interests. Any money we have given Ukraine is just throw away money on non-lethal aid. Russia has spent and lost much more relatively than we have on this issue.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on June 02, 2015, 12:23:29 PM
As I said many, many months before we were never going to fight over Ukraine. The average American could give a crap less about Ukraine and Crimea--most have no idea where they are located on a map and most that can just consider them an historic part of greater Russia anyway. Just the usual posturing against someone we see as competing with our interests. Any money we have given Ukraine is just throw away money on non-lethal aid. Russia has spent and lost much more relatively than we have on this issue.

Exactly.  In fact it's hard to calculate the money Russia has lost on this faulty endeavor.  Imagine if you would for just one moment that instead of trying to build his popularity by invading Crimea and then E. Ukraine, Vladimir Putin had gone to the G8 riding the wave of popularity and good will that had been created by successfully holding the Olympics in Sochi.

He would have been in a very good position to continue to encourage Western investment capitol in Russia's infrastructure.  Whether it be western know-how to improve the efficiency of the number one arsenal in his economy which is the Russian oil industry, or western know-how to continue to improve the roads and freeways in Russia.

If instead of pandering to Nationalistic paranoia and turning inwards and against W. Europe and the USA Putin was not the paranoid KGB ex-spy that he is had continued to improve rule of property law in Russia to meet international standards as well as transparency for how his government bureaucrats deal with International companies such as IKEA and Ford and Mercedes-Benz and Boeing, he could have gone down in history as a true statesman.

Instead within the span of a few months Russia went from being a mostly reliable partner to the EU to losing Billions due to sanctions and to making bad deals with China which likely would not have happened for decades.

Instead of successfully playing both Europe and China to the benefit of his nation, in the span of just 6 months or so he became a laughing stock of late night comedians and a pariah to most in the West.

A Trillion dollars lost, plus the loss of respect around the World in one fell swoop.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: ECR844 on June 02, 2015, 01:10:51 PM
Quote
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c50e4c1e-0936-11e5-8534-00144feabdc0.html
Russia missile maker blames Ukraine for MH17 plane attack
Russian weapons manufacturer Almaz-Antey has confirmed that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile system as suggested by the West, but said the rocket came from Ukrainian military stocks.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on June 04, 2015, 06:25:44 AM


Poroshenko was installed in Ukraine to do a job. He had targets. He hasn't met them. His cohorts have applied the usual imaginative virement to incoming funds.


Roshen chocolate bar anyone?

'Funny' I didn't realise that Ukraine's Presidential election result was challenged ... so WHO 'installed' Poroshenko ....?


Good of you to mention his Chocolate... 'funny' how it had been sold and made in Russia without a problem until he 'dared' stand as a candidate and  his RU assets were seized for 'copyright infringements' .  :chuckle:

Somewhere else on here andrewfi wishes us to believe only the US bullies.... to get a result it seeks ...



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on June 04, 2015, 11:23:48 AM


Poroshenko was installed in Ukraine to do a job. He had targets. He hasn't met them. His cohorts have applied the usual imaginative virement to incoming funds.


Roshen chocolate bar anyone?

'Funny' I didn't realise that Ukraine's Presidential election result was challenged ... so WHO 'installed' Poroshenko ....?

As you well know, Victoria Nuland and the State Dept chose the current leadership in Ukraine. As you will know, there is even a recording of some of it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM).  :-\

Good of you to mention his Chocolate... 'funny' how it had been sold and made in Russia without a problem until he 'dared' stand as a candidate and  his RU assets were seized for 'copyright infringements' .  :chuckle:

I think anyone bombing ethnic Russians on a daily basis for over a year is quite likely to lose some assets if any are in Russia. Not rocket science is it?

Is Roshen still available in Russia? There was talk of it being pulled off the shelves. In any event, I doubt too many Russians will be queuing up to buy it now.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on June 04, 2015, 07:51:19 PM


As you well know, Victoria Nuland and the State Dept chose the current leadership in Ukraine.

IF  you paid attention  - rather than continuing with your narrow-minded viewpoint of there being only one-side interfering in Ukraine's affairs, you'd realise that getting 'your guy' in the frame is one thing .. getting him ELECTED was the - majority - choice. Even taking into account the non- ability of Crimea and regions of Donbass to be able to vote - due to military occupation / civil war - he would have won.




Good of you to mention his Chocolate... 'funny' how it had been sold and made in Russia without a problem until he 'dared' stand as a candidate and  his RU assets were seized for 'copyright infringements' .  :chuckle:


I think anyone bombing ethnic Russians on a daily basis for over a year is quite likely to lose some assets if any are in Russia. Not rocket science is it?

Ooops; Manny you need to read up on the chronological events...  Poroshenko had his 'assets seized' for daring to stand as a western-leaning candidate in APRIL ... 2014 ... Russia had just seized Crimea and 'separatists' in Donbass - lead by Russians - who were 'formerly' in the employ of the Kremlin oversaw the armed insurrection.

We already know how Russia reacts to those seeking to 'leave' the RF and how their cities getting flattened - when there was only 22 percent eth. Russians - now 2 percent.  I DETEST loss of life, hardship in the name of patriotism - esp. when the polarisation was stirred up by the very people now claiming to be 'defenders' .


Is Roshen still available in Russia? There was talk of it being pulled off the shelves. In any event, I doubt too many Russians will be queuing up to buy it now.


http://www.roshen.com/en/in-the-world/   (http://www.roshen.com/en/in-the-world/) - still have a Moscow office ... give 'em a call.

I didn't see Russians - who can still afford it - stop buying iphones, Range Rovers, Mercs, French Champagne,Italian clothes or sending their kids to school in sanctioning nations....


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on June 06, 2015, 09:53:32 AM
An interview with Texas, U.S. citizen fighting in eastern Ukraine.
He has a much different opinion from what is written by the western media.

http://novorossia.today/a-militiaman-texas-from-the-usa-revealed-the-reasons-of-his-being-in-donetsk/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on June 06, 2015, 01:58:02 PM
Is Roshen still available in Russia? There was talk of it being pulled off the shelves. In any event, I doubt too many Russians will be queuing up to buy it now.


http://www.roshen.com/en/in-the-world/   (http://www.roshen.com/en/in-the-world/) - still have a Moscow office ... give 'em a call.

I didn't see Russians - who can still afford it - stop buying iphones, Range Rovers, Mercs, French Champagne,Italian clothes or sending their kids to school in sanctioning nations....

Well, there are plenty of Youtube videos of Russians smashing up iphones. But the rest of those countries have no part in Americas war on Russia in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on June 08, 2015, 04:03:44 AM

Well, there are plenty of Youtube videos of Russians smashing up iphones. But the rest of those countries have no part in Americas war on Russia in Ukraine.

IF, you had actually been to Russia, recently - you'd have seen that iphones are THE brand of smartphone - outselling Samsung 3 to 1

I put it to you that any fall in sales will be more down to lack of ability to pay for a new one, rather than a conscious decision to turn their backs on a brand - due to it's parent company's origin.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-16/russia-smartphone-sales-to-stall-on-iphone-slowdown-idc-says (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-16/russia-smartphone-sales-to-stall-on-iphone-slowdown-idc-says)

You may have simply demonstrated how easily influenced you may be- perhaps you rely too much on a small selection of videos or the words of others ...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on June 14, 2015, 12:04:52 AM
(Attachment Link)

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/06/10/nato-publics-blame-russia-for-ukrainian-crisis-but-reluctant-to-provide-military-aid/russia-ukraine-report-44/

Obama would love to have numbers like that.  Since he's got most of the press here in the USA in his back pocket you would think that he would. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on June 18, 2015, 07:29:51 AM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin's confrontation with the West is "artificial" and aimed at protecting Russia's ruling elite and distracting attention from a corrupt system, a former Russian oil tycoon said on Wednesday."The current confrontation with the West is absolutely artificial," Mikhail Khodorkovsky told the Atlantic Council think tank."The cooling of relations has been inspired by those Russian elites who want to hold on to power."Speaking through a translator, Khodorkovsky, once Russia's richest man, said, "They desperately need an image of an enemy who would distract the attention of the populace from the corruption and inefficiency that exists in the power."Khodorkovsky's empire, which included now defunct Russian oil company Yukos, produced more crude than Qatar before he ran afoul of Putin and was jailed for fraud and tax evasion. Putin pardoned him in December 2013.Khodorkovsky, one of Putin's most outspoken critics, lives in Switzerland."Unfortunately, there can be no talk of any new strategic rapprochement while Putin remains in power," Khodorkovsky said."In Russia such a system has been built under which any decision can be suddenly changed at the whim of one person, who is not controlled by any internal political mechanisms," he said.Asked whether he would run for president of Russia, Khodorkovsky replied, "I don't want to waste questions that have no practical value right now."But, he said, "sooner or later" a power change would occur in Russia and the West should be prepared to help Russia quickly reintegrate into the global system.That could happen by making Russia a member of NATO and the European Union.Khodorkovsky said it would be in Putin's interest to "freeze" the conflict in eastern Ukraine.He cautioned Washington over sending weapons to Ukraine, and said most Russians already believed the conflict there was between Russia and the United States."This situation is going to keep on developing in this direction if arms start being shipped to Ukraine," he said."Then you have the question whether the United States is ready to step into the conflict and to win because if it is not ready for that this will be interpreted as America having lost
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on June 18, 2015, 07:35:21 AM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin's confrontation with the West is "artificial" and aimed at protecting Russia's ruling elite and distracting attention from a corrupt system, a former Russian oil tycoon said on Wednesday."The current confrontation with the West is absolutely artificial," Mikhail Khodorkovsky told the Atlantic Council think tank."The cooling of relations has been inspired by those Russian elites who want to hold on to power."Speaking through a translator, Khodorkovsky, once Russia's richest man, said, "They desperately need an image of an enemy who would distract the attention of the populace from the corruption and inefficiency that exists in the power."Khodorkovsky's empire, which included now defunct Russian oil company Yukos, produced more crude than Qatar before he ran afoul of Putin and was jailed for fraud and tax evasion. Putin pardoned him in December 2013.Khodorkovsky, one of Putin's most outspoken critics, lives in Switzerland."Unfortunately, there can be no talk of any new strategic rapprochement while Putin remains in power," Khodorkovsky said."In Russia such a system has been built under which any decision can be suddenly changed at the whim of one person, who is not controlled by any internal political mechanisms," he said.Asked whether he would run for president of Russia, Khodorkovsky replied, "I don't want to waste questions that have no practical value right now."But, he said, "sooner or later" a power change would occur in Russia and the West should be prepared to help Russia quickly reintegrate into the global system.That could happen by making Russia a member of NATO and the European Union.Khodorkovsky said it would be in Putin's interest to "freeze" the conflict in eastern Ukraine.He cautioned Washington over sending weapons to Ukraine, and said most Russians already believed the conflict there was between Russia and the United States."This situation is going to keep on developing in this direction if arms start being shipped to Ukraine," he said."Then you have the question whether the United States is ready to step into the conflict and to win because if it is not ready for that this will be interpreted as America having lost

So similar to Bush Jr. and his whole Iraq adventure.  Wagging the dog with it's tail.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on June 24, 2015, 09:41:45 PM


Representatives of the European Union have confirmed that Brussels’ position regarding the special status of Donbass areas currently under control of Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics is that it should be permanent.

The European Union representatives have confirmed that Brussels favors a permanent special status for areas of Donbass currently under control of Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150624/1023791343.html#ixzz3e1SIcwni

 The EU did NOT use the terminology your sputnik article proclaims..that is pure propaganda.

It's hardly 'news news'.

Greater autonomy was all many wanted and more reasonable folk in Kiev would have happily granted as a compromise to end all this suffering.


sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on July 01, 2015, 05:41:44 PM
‘Yankee go home!’ Hundreds stage anti-US protest in front of embassy in Kiev

(Attachment Link)

Demonstrators have gathered in front of the US embassy in Kiev to protest against what they call US meddling in Ukraine’s internal affairs, including the military conflict in eastern Ukraine.

Several hundred protesters held a rally in front of the US embassy in Kiev on Wednesday, Ruptly reports. The demonstrators held placards with signs: “Shame on the US” and “Yankees go away from Ukraine.”

Some carried photos depicting the destruction and casualties in the country’s restive east, while others held signs reading “The blood of Donbass kids is on Obama’s hands.”

A similar protest in front of the US embassy in Kiev was held last Thursday. The demonstrators staged a performance during which a protester portraying a US soldier soaked in pig blood tried to hand out dollars to the embassy’s security. The rally included an installation consisting of bottles with flags of the countries in which, according to the protesters, the so-called “color revolutions” took place.

Read the rest here (http://rt.com/news/271087-protest-anti-us-ukraine/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome).

Comments and debate here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=21499.405;last_msg=409880) please.

Just another Russian staged event for Russian news. Maybe 20 protesters. Then they try to used the people standing in line like they are protesters. Hell those are the people who want visas to come to USA.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on July 01, 2015, 05:50:32 PM
‘Yankee go home!’ Hundreds stage anti-US protest in front of embassy in Kiev

(Attachment Link)

Demonstrators have gathered in front of the US embassy in Kiev to protest against what they call US meddling in Ukraine’s internal affairs, including the military conflict in eastern Ukraine.

Several hundred protesters held a rally in front of the US embassy in Kiev on Wednesday, Ruptly reports. The demonstrators held placards with signs: “Shame on the US” and “Yankees go away from Ukraine.”

Some carried photos depicting the destruction and casualties in the country’s restive east, while others held signs reading “The blood of Donbass kids is on Obama’s hands.”

A similar protest in front of the US embassy in Kiev was held last Thursday. The demonstrators staged a performance during which a protester portraying a US soldier soaked in pig blood tried to hand out dollars to the embassy’s security. The rally included an installation consisting of bottles with flags of the countries in which, according to the protesters, the so-called “color revolutions” took place.

Read the rest here (http://rt.com/news/271087-protest-anti-us-ukraine/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome).

Comments and debate here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=21499.405;last_msg=409880) please.

Just another Russian staged event for Russian news. Maybe 20 protesters. Then they try to used the people standing in line like they are protesters. Hell those are the people who want visas to come to USA.   

Only 20 protesters?


Keep watching that CNN........
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 01, 2015, 06:13:44 PM
‘Yankee go home!’ Hundreds stage anti-US protest in front of embassy in Kiev

(Attachment Link)

Demonstrators have gathered in front of the US embassy in Kiev to protest against what they call US meddling in Ukraine’s internal affairs, including the military conflict in eastern Ukraine.

Several hundred protesters held a rally in front of the US embassy in Kiev on Wednesday, Ruptly reports. The demonstrators held placards with signs: “Shame on the US” and “Yankees go away from Ukraine.”

Some carried photos depicting the destruction and casualties in the country’s restive east, while others held signs reading “The blood of Donbass kids is on Obama’s hands.”

A similar protest in front of the US embassy in Kiev was held last Thursday. The demonstrators staged a performance during which a protester portraying a US soldier soaked in pig blood tried to hand out dollars to the embassy’s security. The rally included an installation consisting of bottles with flags of the countries in which, according to the protesters, the so-called “color revolutions” took place.

Read the rest here (http://rt.com/news/271087-protest-anti-us-ukraine/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome).

Comments and debate here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=21499.405;last_msg=409880) please.

Just another Russian staged event for Russian news. Maybe 20 protesters. Then they try to used the people standing in line like they are protesters. Hell those are the people who want visas to come to USA.   

Only 20 protesters?


Keep watching that CNN........



Watched the video, maybe hundred people including children. Most likely on Putin's troll payroll.
Most seemed uninterested to be there, but money is money , no matter how you earn it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on July 01, 2015, 10:59:30 PM
I wonder why there are not any Ukrainians protesting anything in Moscow?  Oh that's right, they would end up in prison like the Ukrainian female pilot. 

Another yawner, Manny.   :Zzzzsleep:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on July 02, 2015, 01:18:26 AM
I wonder why there are not any Ukrainians protesting anything in Moscow? 

What is to protest? Russia taking a million immigrants from Ukraine since the Nuland regime change roadshow arrived?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 02, 2015, 01:23:07 AM
I wonder why there are not any Ukrainians protesting anything in Moscow?  Oh that's right, they would end up in prison like the Ukrainian female pilot. 

Why would they be protesting with foreign governments ?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 02, 2015, 03:31:48 AM
Here we go with the inability to think again.

Is this a selective issue - a kind of thought blindness in certain areas of life?

If one is programmed for long enough does one lose the ability to think or analyse in those areas of life where cognition is not encouraged while still being able to function as a human in other areas of life that are not sanctioned by one's thought leaders?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 02, 2015, 09:55:00 AM
Here we go with the inability to think again.



said the guy, addressing the mirror ?

I'm glad those who are unhappy about any US involvement feel free TO protest... RT didn't run stories about those who lived in refugee camps in UA, when they fled Donbass..



 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 02, 2015, 10:41:29 AM
Here we go with the inability to think again.



said the guy, addressing the mirror ?

I'm glad those who are unhappy about any US involvement feel free TO protest... RT didn't run stories about those who lived in refugee camps in UA, when they fled Donbass..

But 1tv.ru did, many times. And also showed the 1.2 Million that fled to Russia. We saw refugees in Evpatoria by busloads last year.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 02, 2015, 10:50:13 AM

But 1tv.ru did, many times. And also showed the 1.2 Million that fled to Russia. We saw refugees in Evpatoria by busloads last year.

I apologise, Markje. I watch pervy kanal / RU24 - daily -and must have missed them..



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 02, 2015, 11:05:25 AM

But 1tv.ru did, many times. And also showed the 1.2 Million that fled to Russia. We saw refugees in Evpatoria by busloads last year.

I apologise, Markje. I watch pervy kanal / RU24 - daily -and must have missed them..

Then you must not have watched when the news was online, perhaps you like the other shows. (We are talking about the same? there is more than 1 pervy)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 02, 2015, 11:19:23 AM

Then you must not have watched when the news was online, perhaps you like the other shows. (We are talking about the same? there is more than 1 pervy)

As I said, I watch pervy kanal 1tv.ru and Rossiya24 daily - in the evenings There are editions of pervy kanal broadcast for international markets - via satellite -but they are essentially the same - just time delayed - provided the rights allow- and showing local adverts.

That I must have missed the coverage of the UA Refugee camps is not surprising... as it the emphasis was on those fleeing to Russia - NOT those fleeing Donbass for safer parts of UA

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on July 02, 2015, 11:37:37 AM
US Presidential Candidate Called McCain an Idiot and Asked for Forgiveness from Russia

"US presidential candidate of the Republican Party and Governor John Kasich of Ohio, in his speech at the socio-political organization Ripon Society conference, said that in case of victory, he will not allow the various idiots, like John McCain, to intervene in the foreign policy of the United States and spoil the already difficult relationship with Russia."

(Attachment Link)

Source (http://oppps.ru/kandidat-v-prezidenty-ssha-nazval-makkejna-idiotom-i-poprosil-proshheniya-u-rossii.html?_utl_t=tw)

That is the same platform Obama ran under. He was going to get along with everyone. Not have any wars.  Well you know the rest of the story.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 04, 2015, 05:00:35 AM
Few more people than the protest Manny posted about :coffeeread:

Ukraine crisis: Rally in Kiev urges war on eastern rebels

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33392991
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 04, 2015, 05:18:26 AM
Here we go with the inability to think again.



said the guy, addressing the mirror ?

I'm glad those who are unhappy about any US involvement feel free TO protest... RT didn't run stories about those who lived in refugee camps in UA, when they fled Donbass..

What on earth are you going on about?

Been at the barley pop again?  :'(
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 04, 2015, 07:51:14 AM


Here we go with the inability to think again.



said the guy, addressing the mirror ?

I'm glad those who are unhappy about any US involvement feel free TO protest... RT didn't run stories about those who lived in refugee camps in UA, when they fled Donbass..

What on earth are you going on about?

Been at the barley pop again?  :'(


A challenge for you

Find me the clips to show the refugee camps in D'psk or Kharkov Oblasts on RU Tv....

18th time.. explain why the military observers of the  OSCEcannot monitor the UA frontier posts..as agreed.

Better you did some research before accusing others of what may be a contributing factor to the absense of reason in so many of your posts.





.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on July 04, 2015, 10:02:14 AM
Far-right stage huge march in Kiev, call for military action in E. Ukraine

http://rt.com/news/271585-ukraine-right-war-protest/

It is RT news. Who know what they are portesting. You got to know what ever it is RT news surely put a slant to it to make Russians as up set as possibile and do everything possibile to get Russians to continue to support the war.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 04, 2015, 12:52:18 PM


It is RT news. Who know what they are portesting. You got to know what ever it is RT news surely put a slant to it to make Russians as up set as possibile and do everything possibile to get Russians to continue to support the war.

To be fair, Texan77 the same news is running on the 'biased'  BBC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33393638 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33393638)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 08, 2015, 02:45:04 PM
After watching hundreds of videos, I can say the separatists are just as guilty of war crimes.

Consider the fact that there would not have been a war had the separatists not took arms against the Ukrainian government.

Ukraine: Self-proclaimed Donbass republics call for UN war crimes probe

http://rt.com/news/272404-donetsk-lugansk-international-tribunal/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on July 08, 2015, 06:35:05 PM
Consider the fact [sic] that there would not have been a war had the separatists not took arms against the Ukrainian government.

Do you remember who made the following statement and the consequences?

"The anti-terrorist operation will not and cannot last for months, it will last just for hours."

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 08, 2015, 10:47:39 PM


Do you remember who made the following statement and the consequences?

"The anti-terrorist operation will not and cannot last for months, it will last just for hours."

In retrospect, will you 'pillory' a guy for making a statement that was made before realising he was fighting a proxy war with his neighbour...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 12, 2015, 04:26:28 AM
A paragraph from an article I wanted to share as I thought it well-written.

Quote
Or, more recently, backed and participated in the coup that deposed democratically-elected Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine and installed a self-appointed junta, which promptly banned opposition parties and brought to power candy king Petro Poroshenko, who has presided over the complete collapse of Ukraine while ignoring his campaign promise to divest himself of his personal business connections.

There is no evidence thus far that Russia has “invaded Ukraine”. None. Oh, Kiev sends the western media its talking points every week, and the western media dutifully reports that Russia invaded yet again, sometimes using photos of bearded cossacks from Georgia in 2008 or idling columns of Russian armor waiting on some road that is not even in Ukraine, or squeals that Russian forces are massing on the other side of the Ukrainian border – which just happens to be Russia, surely an odd place to find the Russian army. The United States Ambassador to Ukraine fires off satellite photographs from Digital Globe on Twitter, showing blurry holes in the ground which he claims were made by Russian artillery, and maybe you can tell a hole made by Russian-fired artillery from one made by Ukrainian-fired Russian artillery of the same caliber, but I’m damned if I can see how. The U.S. State Department claims to have tons of proof, but it can’t show it to the public because – sorry – it’s all classified. You should just believe them because of their track record for timely, accurate information. Ha, ha; sorry, I tried to say that without laughing, I really did, but I just couldn’t do it.

Source (http://russia-insider.com/en/n/6205)

Your 'source' is a joke.

Folk get arrested for reporting movements of RU man power / kit nr. the border for reasons of natl. security

IF you had actually been to some of the places you'd know that many of them prove the presence of hardware in UA that the UA army never had....

Ukrainians that were overjoyed to see Russian columns posted videos online ...

What I cannot work out is if you are a 'victim' or your agenda....You are too smart to be the former.... 

As I am in Russia..it is prob not wise to differ from the 'reported norms', but there are people I meet who are from the conflict regions and they simply want peace.






.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: sparky114 on July 12, 2015, 06:28:43 AM
Does your new Squeeze not keep you busy enough? or are you bluffing her by telling this is work?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 12, 2015, 07:19:52 AM
Does your new Squeeze not keep you busy enough? or are you bluffing her by telling this is work?
She was on the beach and I was staying out of the sun...8)

We are now on the 'beach' together.

Work ? Ugly word...




.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cdnexpat on July 12, 2015, 12:08:12 PM
I watch satellite news daily here, both from Russia, and the west. Strange that  the Russian news have at least 15 minutes of coverage from Ukraine, Donbass and Kiev, while the western press in mute. Completely mute. Even the western internet press is silent.
Strange to me.  :-X
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 12, 2015, 12:28:14 PM
I watch satellite news daily here, both from Russia, and the west. Strange that  the Russian news have at least 15 minutes of coverage from Ukraine, Donbass and Kiev, while the western press in mute. Completely mute. Even the western internet press is silent.
Strange to me.  :-X

Makes sense to me. Firstly the Russian people are very interested in the goings on in Ukraine - Just as I guess you would be in the Great White North if there was a civil war going on in the US.

From the US perspective though, given the utter bollocks that has been foisted upon the English speaking world over the past year and more, it makes sense to minimise the thought control until such time as the thought leaders want to push some new narrative element. Of course, apart from the general ongoing narratives such as American Exceptionalism, most USAians have no real interest in the goings on in some part of the world inhabited by Communists and peasants.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: cdnexpat on July 12, 2015, 12:47:49 PM
Yes, and that is why there was no coverage of the SCO and BRICS meeting in Ufa.
They are too busy with Greece and the US elections, to pay attention that the world is moving ahead.
A lot will happen, until they open their eyes, in 20 months, after the circus elections are over.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 12, 2015, 10:29:45 PM


I watch satellite news daily here, both from Russia, and the west. Strange that  the Russian news have at least 15 minutes of coverage from Ukraine, Donbass and Kiev, while the western press in mute. Completely mute. Even the western internet press is silent.
Strange to me.  :-X

CDN

I think the coverage isn't 'mute'..there is a Ukraine Criscis topic on the BBC News page. It is 'off the interest radar' of most Brits.

Things like China's led AIB development DOES get a mention. China-led AIIB development bank holds signing ceremony - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33307314 (http://China-led AIIB development bank holds signing ceremony - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33307314)

However, if you search under BRICS on the BBC site... you get no hits..



.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on July 13, 2015, 07:02:40 PM
It would seem eastern Ukraine is now nothing more than an welfare state.

The whole of Ukraine is nothing more than a welfare state.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on July 13, 2015, 07:37:00 PM
It would seem eastern Ukraine is now nothing more than an welfare state.

The whole of Ukraine is nothing more than a welfare state.

One small correction to this statement.  99% of Ukraine is a welfare state, caused by the endemic corruption and theft of the 1% that is the ruling class.   :)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 16, 2015, 05:44:16 AM
Everyone is telling us, how easygoing the governments of the world are, concerning journalists.

So, lets get back a few on those that disobey the party line:
Assange -> Whistleblower -> Stuck permanently in some embassy of a small country.
Edward Snowden -> Whistleblower -> should have been the publics hero, instead had to flee to Russia.
Laura Poitras -> Journalist -> Stopped and detained every time she flies, even domesticly within america for at least 4 hours.
Glenn Greenwald -> Journalist -> "detaining my (gay) partner was a failed attempt at intimidation"

A quick google search is even more appalling. So in Russia you might get killed, but the other countries sure as hell are not better. Imagining having to fear for your loved partners safety because of your work (Glenn) , or that you have to calculate 4 hours travel time for planes, during which you will get interrogated aggressivly (Laura) or having to emigrate for showing the public exactly what your personal rights are worth these days (Assange, Snowden).
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 16, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
Everyone is telling us, how easygoing the governments of the world are, concerning journalists.

So, lets get back a few on those that disobey the party line:
Assange -> Whistleblower -> Stuck permanently in some embassy of a small country.
Edward Snowden -> Whistleblower -> should have been the publics hero, instead had to flee to Russia.
Laura Poitras -> Journalist -> Stopped and detained every time she flies, even domesticly within america for at least 4 hours.
Glenn Greenwald -> Journalist -> "detaining my (gay) partner was a failed attempt at intimidation"

A quick google search is even more appalling. So in Russia you might get killed, but the other countries sure as hell are not better. Imagining having to fear for your loved partners safety because of your work (Glenn) , or that you have to calculate 4 hours travel time for planes, during which you will get interrogated aggressivly (Laura) or having to emigrate for showing the public exactly what your personal rights are worth these days (Assange, Snowden).

Markje

Assange is wanted for questing re a sex offence and doesn't trust the Swedes not to extradite him to the USA

Snowden released operation secrets - which considering his position was either brave or stupid .... he wants to go home and I think a deal should and could be worked out.

I know of a journo killed in Ukraine for his enquiries -years ago in the Kuchma days and numerous cases in Russia ..

In 2014 being a jorno in UA supporting Maiden or Yanu' could be fatal



Assange could and should cut a deal with the Swedes and I would condemn any third party or UK involvement in his being extradited to the US.

Is winding up dead worse that living in Russia [ Snowden ]  ...

NB .. I do not approve of internment  - imprisonment without being charged - as was tried out in N.Ireland or with alleged terrorists turning up in Gitmo.



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 16, 2015, 01:21:17 PM
Assange is wanted for questing re a sex offence and doesn't trust the Swedes not to extradite him to the USA
And rightly so, if they bring out such big guns for not wearing a condom (because thats the actual charge!!!!!)

Quote
Snowden released operation secrets - which considering his position was either brave or stupid .... he wants to go home and I think a deal should and could be worked out.
Snowden told everyone the massive scale of operations of the NSA-spying. Something the KGB had wet dreams about.

Quote
Assange could and should cut a deal with the Swedes and I would condemn any third party or UK involvement in his being extradited to the US.
He tried & failed, he was more than willing to be 'interviewed' by Swedish police on neutral ground such as the embassy where he is now.

Since thats why he is on interpol , for failing to show up on a police inquiry regarding not wearing a condom.

Call it what you will, i call it massive overkill on the charge, so its clear the USA is involved.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 16, 2015, 02:31:48 PM
Markje, it seems that charges have been drawn up against Assange by the US, supposedly some kind of secret.

I have to say that in his position I'd have exactly the same concerns as he has. The US is simply not trustworthy in this regard - look at what they were up to in respect of Snowden where, among other trust building exercises, they forced a plane carrying, IIRC, the Ecuadorian president to land so that his plane could be checked to see if Snowden was aboard.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 16, 2015, 02:41:05 PM
Markje, it seems that charges have been drawn up against Assange by the US, supposedly some kind of secret.

I have to say that in his position I'd have exactly the same concerns as he has. The US is simply not trustworthy in this regard - look at what they were up to in respect of Snowden where, among other trust building exercises, they forced a plane carrying, IIRC, the Ecuadorian president to land so that his plane could be checked to see if Snowden was aboard.

Yes, spain made it quite clear, they don't do 'immunity' for VIPS that should have it by law.

Can you imagine the outrage if it would have been the 747 of the USA on request of say, Russia.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 16, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
Assange is wanted for questing re a sex offence and doesn't trust the Swedes not to extradite him to the USA


And rightly so, if they bring out such big guns for not wearing a condom (because thats the actual charge!!!!!)



untrue, Markje


''It is alleged Mr Assange then committed three offences relating to her - one of unlawful coercion, and two counts of sexual molestation.''

Full breakdown / source


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19426382 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19426382)


Quote from: msmoby
Snowden released operation secrets - which considering his position was either brave or stupid .... he wants to go home and I think a deal should and could be worked out.


Snowden told everyone the massive scale of operations of the NSA-spying. Something the KGB had wet dreams about.


...and while in Russia he has told us that he thought Putin's answers re his agencies practices on his citizens was evasive and should be examined further - no mention of THAT ON RT .. :chuckle:

Quote from: moby

Assange could and should cut a deal with the Swedes and I would condemn any third party or UK involvement in his being extradited to the US.


He tried & failed, he was more than willing to be 'interviewed' by Swedish police on neutral ground such as the embassy where he is now.


''The prosecutors were criticised in November 2014 by Sweden's Court of Appeal, for failing to explore "alternative avenues" to move the investigation forward.

The crimes Mr Assange is suspected of are subject to statutes of limitation - prosecutors only have until August 2015 to question him about some of the allegations against him, although they have until 2020 to investigate the most serious alleged rape offence.

In March 2015, Swedish prosecutors offered to travel to London to question Mr Assange. Lead prosecutor Marianne Ny announced that a change of strategy was necessary "now that time is of the essence,


Though Ms Ny still believes interviewing him in London could lower the quality of the interview, she said that time limitations made it "necessary to accept such deficiencies to the investigation." source BBC


Since thats why he is on interpol , for failing to show up on a police inquiry regarding not wearing a condom.

'sex charges'

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/nov/30/interpol-wanted-notice-julian-assange (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/nov/30/interpol-wanted-notice-julian-assange)

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 17, 2015, 02:48:05 AM
And rightly so, if they bring out such big guns for not wearing a condom (because thats the actual charge!!!!!)
untrue, Markje
You obviously have not read up on this story when it hit the news. Because of the law of Sweden saying 'rape' when the technical fact is 'not wearing a condom'.

Try reading before crying untrue.

Below is the first hit in google on assange+sweden+condom.
I won't do your work for you again.

Mark.

Quote from: The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

Assange, who was released on bail on Thursday, denies the Swedish allegations and has not formally been charged with any offence. The two Swedish women behind the charges have been accused by his supporters of making malicious complaints or being "honeytraps" in a wider conspiracy to discredit him.
So , not officially charged but stuck in an embassy for 5 years. Reallly now, Moby you're grasping at straws.

Quote from: The Guardian
According to her statement she "tried to put on some articles of clothing as it was going too quickly and uncomfortably but Assange ripped them off again". Miss A told police that she didn't want to go any further "but that it was too late to stop Assange as she had gone along with it so far", and so she allowed him to undress her.
So first she wouldn't , but then felt sorry apparently because she had allowed him to go 'this far' and then cried foul to the police. (should have been thrown out from day 1).

Quote from: The Guardian
According to the statement, Miss A then realised he was trying to have unprotected sex with her. She told police that she had tried a number of times to reach for a condom but Assange had stopped her by holding her arms and pinning her legs. The statement records Miss A describing how Assange then released her arms and agreed to use a condom, but she told the police that at some stage Assange had "done something" with the condom that resulted in it becoming ripped, and ejaculated without withdrawing.

When he was later interviewed by police in Stockholm, Assange agreed that he had had sex with Miss A but said he did not tear the condom, and that he was not aware that it had been torn. He told police that he had continued to sleep in Miss A's bed for the following week and she had never mentioned a torn condom.

Ahh the condom story. So she let him sleep-in for a whole week before crying foul to the police.... Fishy, fishy.

And even better, after charging him :
Quote from: The Guardian
Assange's supporters point out that, despite her complaints against him, Miss A held a party for him on that evening and continued to allow him to stay in her flat.

Man, when.will.the.hurting.stop.

Ending thoughts of the police prosecutor in the end
Quote from: The Guardian
"We understand that both complainants admit to having initiated consensual sexual relations with Mr Assange. They do not complain of any physical injury. The first complainant did not make a complaint for six days (in which she hosted the respondent in her flat [actually her bed] and spoke in the warmest terms about him to her friends) until she discovered he had spent the night with the other complainant.

You can read the rest of this article yourself.

Mark.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 17, 2015, 04:40:56 AM
Basically what we have is a case of jealousy that has been spun to political advantage.

I wonder what the unguarded position of these women would be today? My guess would be that they'd have preferred to never have made these silly complaints.

I have seen at first hand the effect of spurious rape claims upon families. What seems, at first, to be an easy out becomes a divisive torment for families and friends. In this case the obvious political manipulation will have made matters much, much worse for the complainants, not to mention the uncharged accused. In the case that I saw the accused became an outcast in his community, but so too did the woman.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 18, 2015, 11:31:18 PM
Markje

NOTHING in your quotes changes the charges - wanting to have sex - if the other party doesn't - including refusing to wear a condom is a NO... from one party - not a preference...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 18, 2015, 11:40:28 PM
Basically what we have is a case of jealousy that has been spun to political advantage.

..I suppose you have 'reliable sources' for this contention, too  :chuckle:


I wonder what the unguarded position of these women would be today? My guess would be that they'd have preferred to never have made these silly complaints.

As the matter is sub-judice, I guess we'll have to wait ...


I have seen at first hand the effect of spurious rape claims upon families. What seems, at first, to be an easy out becomes a divisive torment for families and friends. In this case the obvious political manipulation will have made matters much, much worse for the complainants, not to mention the uncharged accused. In the case that I saw the accused became an outcast in his community, but so too did the woman.

Not sure what point you are trying to make, here ...Sure there are cases of 'revenge' inspired accusations - but if you have noting to hide - face the music...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 19, 2015, 03:17:02 AM
Markje

NOTHING in your quotes changes the charges - wanting to have sex - if the other party doesn't - including refusing to wear a condom is a NO... from one party - not a preference...
This a case of jealous girl, nothing more , nothing less.

In the end he did wear a condom, but the girl claimed he purposely ripped it, which he denies.

She also let him stay in her bed, for a whole week, then charged him with police. Then she threw him a huge party during which she spoke only with 'the warmest words' about him to her friends, again allowed him to sleep with her .

Why can't you just admit you are wrong.

If this had been between john doe and jane doe, the police would have told them to not waste their time.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 19, 2015, 03:23:46 AM
Try to 'rip' a condom.

These things are made to stop drunken,  stupid people, from making babies. They do not 'break'  or 'rip' easily.  They are designed to be quite literally foolproof.

Go,  try it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 19, 2015, 04:20:22 AM
Try to 'rip' a condom.

These things are made to stop drunken,  stupid people, from making babies. They do not 'break'  or 'rip' easily.  They are designed to be quite literally foolproof.

Go,  try it.

''Condoms are very strong, but may split or tear if not used properly. ''

Quoting the UK National Health Service...

'disadvantages'  http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception-guide/pages/male-condoms.aspx (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception-guide/pages/male-condoms.aspx)

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 25, 2015, 08:25:44 AM
CAN PUTIN AFFORD TO KEEP EAST UKRAINE?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/25/can-putin-afford-to-keep-east-ukraine.html
Posted by TomCat.
Interesting for its reality lite and uninformed writing.

I liked the manner in which the writer wove her supposed discussion with some folks who were, from their reported words, showing off hugely to a slack jawed scribe in Donetsk with invented stuff about the Russian economy and Ukraine's responsibility, or lack of it, for transfer payments.

Well found Tom! I'd not go so far as to suggest this as a winner, or even a runner up for bollox article of the week, but it was in contention for a while. ;)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on July 25, 2015, 08:26:41 AM
CAN PUTIN AFFORD TO KEEP EAST UKRAINE?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/25/can-putin-afford-to-keep-east-ukraine.html

Good article. I hope more people read it. This is the realities Russia and the DPR and LPR face while the Ukraine collapses.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 25, 2015, 08:40:09 AM

 I'd not go so far as to suggest this as a winner, or even a runner up for bollox article of the week, but it was in contention for a while. ;)[/i]

Your contributions - based on the veracity of content  - are way out in front  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 25, 2015, 08:56:11 AM
Interesting for its reality lite and uninformed writing.

Quite interesting writing style (not)  ;D

"The military commandant in this embattled city, Andrei Shpigel, was having an emotional discussion..."

Of course, the first association that cometh to your mind, when speaking of military commandants, is their fragile emotions...  ;D

"Russian officials, including Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, have pointed out again and again..."

"who demand payment from dwindingly supplies of foreign currency."

"Very soon crowds of angry Russians will blame the Kremlin ..." This is called "catastrophizing", aha
...
and the hell will break loose, and zombie apocalypse shall began, but the author of the article would have made her 0.2 usd via (ab)using her surname by then.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 25, 2015, 09:25:05 AM
The whole piece was notable for the laziness that went into its creation.

I'd guess that most literate folks would carry away a negative impression of the piece simply from the sloth with which the article was imbued. If the writer ever had a teacher for her journalistic skills then that teacher should not be proud of the results of her work.

But yes, when I read unsubstantiated points in a serious article then I can know that we have been short-changed or lied to. That's the kind of stuff that gets journalists a bad name - and this one does claim to be a journalist.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 25, 2015, 09:43:46 AM
CAN PUTIN AFFORD TO KEEP EAST UKRAINE?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/25/can-putin-afford-to-keep-east-ukraine.html
Posted by TomCat.
Interesting for its reality lite and uninformed writing.

I liked the manner in which the writer wove her supposed discussion with some folks who were, from their reported words, showing off hugely to a slack jawed scribe in Donetsk with invented stuff about the Russian economy and Ukraine's responsibility, or lack of it, for transfer payments.

Well found Tom! I'd not go so far as to suggest this as a winner, or even a runner up for bollox article of the week, but it was in contention for a while. ;)

She can't write in Russian either...
http://www.inopressa.ru/article/09Jul2015/dailybeast/putin_hunt.html

"Следуя в русле охоты на ведьм, направленной против внешних влияний, главный антизападник на российском телевидении Дмитрий Киселев обвинил американского профессора Кендрика Уайта, проректора по инновационной деятельности в Нижегородском университете, в том, что его деятельность наносит "вред" России..."

Let alone that about 80% or more of the article are quotes...

My first guess was right though:
Quote
After the assassination of Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov in February 2015, condolence messages from around the world poured to Anna Nemtsova's Facebook page because of the assumption that she and the Russian politician were somehow related. The common family name, however, was just a coincidence, although she and Nemtsov were born and raised in the same hometown of Nizhny Novgorod, a city which was closed for foreign visitors during Soviet times. Anna remembers Nemtsov as a curly-haired, charismatic scholar during her teenage years. She calls him the “first democrat” she had ever seen.

Today, Nemtsova works as an independent journalist in two directions:
https://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/03/30/an-interview-with-anna-nemtsova-about-being-a-russian-journalist/

She has ok appearance, a surname that speaks for itself and she's extremely anti-Russian, what else a 'gal needs? (brain, literacy, writing style...)   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 25, 2015, 09:49:44 AM
Yes, I looked at her provenance too. I tend to do so when I see a piece like this because there has to be a reason why such a piece is allowed through the normal editorial process.
A part of me wonders how much of the writing was actually by the named writer and how much was an external creation passed off under her imprimatur.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 25, 2015, 09:50:28 AM
CAN PUTIN AFFORD TO KEEP EAST UKRAINE?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/25/can-putin-afford-to-keep-east-ukraine.html

Good article. I hope more people read it. This is the realities Russia and the DPR and LPR face while the Ukraine collapses.

You really don't have the faintest idea do you?  :'(
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 25, 2015, 10:04:13 AM
Yes, I looked at her provenance too. I tend to do so when I see a piece like this because there has to be a reason why such a piece is allowed through the normal editorial process.
A part of me wonders how much of the writing was actually by the named writer and how much was an external creation passed off under her imprimatur.

It's so poorly written, that i presume she has penned it herself!  ;D Btw, i am not even discussing her views, i mean, everyone is entitled to their own, but as long as V.V.'s enemies are of this caliber, he doesn't even need all that many friends!  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 25, 2015, 09:14:13 PM
CAN PUTIN AFFORD TO KEEP EAST UKRAINE?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/25/can-putin-afford-to-keep-east-ukraine.html
Posted by TomCat.
Interesting for its reality lite and uninformed writing.

I liked the manner in which the writer wove her supposed discussion with some folks who were, from their reported words, showing off hugely to a slack jawed scribe in Donetsk with invented stuff about the Russian economy and Ukraine's responsibility, or lack of it, for transfer payments.

Well found Tom! I'd not go so far as to suggest this as a winner, or even a runner up for bollox article of the week, but it was in contention for a while. ;)

Anna Nemstova, is an award winning journalist, who actually goes out to areas of conflict and reports as it is.
Unlike our Andrewfi, who has self-proclaimed knowledge of everything, never having set foot in eastern Ukraine.

Who do you think can report an more accurate account of the situation?
Andrew not all Russian journalists are Putin's paid trolls. Maybe you should travel to eastern Ukraine, interview the separatists, so that you could give a more accurate account.
The Daily Beast and Newsweek, Russia.No stranger to staying focused while under pressure, Nemtsova got a 20-minute crash course in reporting from a Moscow-based American reporter. From there, she began working as a researcher, fixer and translator for Washington Post correspondents, traveling across Russia, Ukraine the rest of the Post-Soviet nations.Today, she is considered one of the most well-respected and outspoken independent journalists in the region — a reputation that has sometimes made her a target of threats, slander, and physical acts of harassment by those in positions of authority.Countering these threats, along with several instances of physical assault, the International Women’s Media Foundation (IWMF) is recognizing Nemtsova as a 2015 Courage Awardee for her commitment to unearthing stories of corruption, terrorism, impunity and oppression.“When the IWMF called me, I was sitting on a public bus in Eastern Ukraine with people, half asleep. I was trying to be very quiet and could not express my emotions fully,” she says of receiving the news of the Award. “The moment I found out, I basically felt the world reached out to me.”An established contributor to both The Daily Beast and Newsweek, she’s currently working on a freelance basis, contributing to publications like The Washington Post, Foreign Policy, Politico, The Guardian, Al Jazeera and Marie Claire as well.She says her editors offer a great deal of support, but there’s no getting around the fact that she must often place herself in harm’s way to get the stories that matter most.For instance, when officials attempted to cover up the shooting down of commercial airliner MH-17 last summer, she and two colleagues visited the makeshift morgue to identify the bodies of the victims. They were detained, interrogated and threatened for several hours by a group of militiamen.“Just imagine how the relatives of the people on the plane were feeling. We thought it was important to find the remains,” she says, still more concerned with the pursuit of truth than the fact that she and her colleagues had been detained at gunpoint.She experienced a similar scenario in Ukraine just a few weeks prior, while covering Russia’s support of rebel groups fighting in Eastern Ukraine. Rumors of torture, kidnappings, disappearances and starvation drew her to the active conflict zone, where armed rebels forcefully detained her and her colleagues.“Both times, it looked like a classic abduction,” she says. “They take you, they take your phone away from you, they wear masks, and they drive you in an unknown direction.”She attributes her release, on both accounts, to pure luck. Many of her colleagues have lost their lives in similar scenarios as the state of press freedom in the Post-Soviet region continues to deteriorate.While covering the North Caucasus, Nemtsova is faced with the challenge of balancing her safety with her sense of journalistic duty. But, she knows, the nature of danger for a reporter in Russia goes well beyond personal risks.“Today, in some small provincial towns, people can be approached by officials after we leave and we can damage people’s lives,” she says. “We really need to be careful quoting people’s names. We really need to ask twice if the people we interview feel comfortable.”As she continues to cover turmoil in Ukraine, Nemtsova says she is determined to stay balanced and professional in her coverage in what has become a full-fledged information war. Nemtsova sees herself as a journalist committed to covering all sides of a story fairly.As she continues to cover turmoil in Ukraine, Nemtsova says she is determined to stay balanced and professional in her coverage in what has become a full-fledged information war.“The question of who is patriotic and who is not patriotic is becoming a key question in Russian media,” she says. “What is it to be patriotic? Is it to be quiet about corruption, or to talk about it? Is it to accept officials rewriting history…or to tell the truth?”Her push for truth and accountability has exposed numerous abuses of power, including the arrests of those who protested Putin’s election, the displacement of families in Sochi who lost their homes during the construction for the Olympic games, abductions of Muslims, domestic violence across Russia, and the kidnapping of women in Crimea.“There are so few women covering the crisis, but they are the bravest, by far,” she says. “In Russia, I see more brave women coming to cover dicey places. I hope our coverage will attract the attention of women all across the Post-Soviet Union. I hope it will build a bridge.”by Erin Luhmann Hinrichs

http://www.iwmf.org/anna-nemtsova/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 27, 2015, 06:49:11 AM
When copy/pasting that which you can not be troubled to precis and pass on why not at least take the care to add the paragraphs originally present in the source?

Would you care to try to substantiate any of the purported facts in the piece?
I can tell you now that you will have a tough task - that is, in part, why this piece was notable.

A while back I posted a brief guide to enable ordinary folks to be able to consume 'news' media in an objective manner. I commend you to find it and read it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 27, 2015, 08:02:47 AM
A while back I posted a brief guide to enable ordinary folks to be able to consume 'news' media in an objective manner. I commend you to find it and read it.

You gotta love Russian language though, i read some stuff on runet, they refer to A.N. as "журналисточка" (diminutive of журналист/ journalist), all there  ;D

"2015 Courage Award"   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Women_of_Courage_Award

'The International Women of Courage Award is an American award presented annually by the United States Department of State ...'

Well, obviously they couldn't give her an award for her writing...  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 27, 2015, 08:19:56 AM
For Tom Cat and others, the use of a diminutive (or an 'ochka') can be affectionate or a way of poking fun at someone. In this case the latter, it suggests that she is not a 'proper' journalist and, for sure, judging by her writing, whatever she may be, journalist ain't it.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 27, 2015, 08:46:31 AM
journalist ain't it.

If only Tom Cat would read his own posts...

"Nemtsova got a 20-minute crash course in reporting from a Moscow-based American reporter. From there, she began working as a researcher, fixer and translator for Washington Post correspondents, traveling across Russia, Ukraine the rest of the Post-Soviet nations. Today, she is considered one of the most well-respected and outspoken independent journalists in the region ..."

i have an idea what could have happened during those 20 min, but somehow i have difficulties imagining 'twas a course in reporting ;D
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 27, 2015, 09:46:24 AM
For Tom Cat and others, the use of a diminutive (or an 'ochka') can be affectionate or a way of poking fun at someone. In this case the latter, it suggests that she is not a 'proper' journalist and, for sure, judging by her writing, whatever she may be, journalist ain't it.

I've read your DORAB, articles and could say the same for your writing expertise.  :)

It's time to enhance the RUA experience, already had Volshe turned off might as well add Andrew. :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 27, 2015, 10:28:24 AM
already had Volshe turned off

 
:snivel: :snivel: :snivel:

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 27, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
For Tom Cat and others, the use of a diminutive (or an 'ochka') can be affectionate or a way of poking fun at someone. In this case the latter, it suggests that she is not a 'proper' journalist and, for sure, judging by her writing, whatever she may be, journalist ain't it.

I've read your DORAB, articles and could say the same for your writing expertise.  :)

It's time to enhance the RUA experience, already had Volshe turned off might as well add Andrew. :coffeeread:

I am not a journalist, never claimed otherwise.

Is it normal for USAians to run and hide from that which they do not understand or from that with which they do not agree?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 27, 2015, 02:29:57 PM
For Tom Cat and others, the use of a diminutive (or an 'ochka') can be affectionate or a way of poking fun at someone. In this case the latter, it suggests that she is not a 'proper' journalist and, for sure, judging by her writing, whatever she may be, journalist ain't it.

Taking into consideration, English is not her first language, you may think her lexicon is not to your standard.

One should also keep in mind, those who dare to criticize the Kremlin, might not what to publicly go on record.
You might not agree with her views, or feel she didn't have proof to back up what she wrote.
But it's doubtful she is making up lies, because for Russian journalists, it can be hazardous to their health.

Anyone, man or woman, that risks their life to bring the events to the masses, should be given some respect.

Does not matter what news agency, or journalists, all seem to be biased towards one side or the other.
if you were in disagreement with the article, then post a better article you feel was more adequately written to disclaim what Anna had published.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 28, 2015, 11:56:47 PM


I am not a journalist, never claimed otherwise.

RT seems to employ anyone and they become 'journos' .. you are doing 'fine' .. :chuckle:

Is it normal for USAians to run and hide from that which they do not understand or from that with which they do not agree?

irony alert ..
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 29, 2015, 12:18:21 AM
I realize Tom Cat has me on ignore, so mine is more of a general musing ;)


Taking into consideration, English is not her first language, you may think her lexicon is not to your standard.

One should also keep in mind, those who dare to criticize the Kremlin, might not what to publicly go on record.
You might not agree with her views, or feel she didn't have proof to back up what she wrote.
But it's doubtful she is making up lies, because for Russian journalists, it can be hazardous to their health.

Anyone, man or woman, that risks their life to bring the events to the masses, should be given some respect.

Does not matter what news agency, or journalists, all seem to be biased towards one side or the other.
if you were in disagreement with the article, then post a better article you feel was more adequately written to disclaim what Anna had published.

Ditto, bravery should be respected and it is. Also, no one wants to shut down the people who think differently, i mean, nobody normal and thinking.
Why we have issues with that award? It's been given in my country too and in other countries in the region, and there were more than one case where the receiver was of dubious morals.
There is an Eastern European reality of groupies , ladies who speak English fluently and look decently, without having other qualifications, who hang around western journalists in the areas of conflicts. I am writing this because i have several acquaintances like that, and i was also offered jobs of a kind at the time. During wars in ex YU, in Kosovo, a girl would get 500 usd to accompany (to translate etc.) the western journalist to the area of conflict, it's more or less the same these days.
Many of the girls develop close personal relationships with some of the men and advance their career from there, without proper qualifications, personal opinions, writing skills or whatsoever. The most recent winner of the prize in my country is from that very category and here her nomination got only LOLs, nothing else. We know who are dissidents, we know our brave men and women who risque their everything for justice to prevail... Trust me that everyone here would have big issues accepting that Nemtsova belongs in this honorable group, she does not.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 12:39:29 AM
Volshe, I am sorry, but reading your last piece I cannot see how anyone who speaks a second language is 'without skill'

If a lass / guy is prepared to risk their lives in war zones -  to better themselves - G.Phillips  ? - then I can respect their 'insanity' / bravery, whilst questioning their wisdom / bias.

Lots of people laugh at the RT stringer, too - but I think people's derision / respect is tempered by the motive.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Volshe on July 29, 2015, 03:00:16 AM

Moby, you actually read my post and replied in full seriousness?! OMG!!!  :party0011: :party0011: :party0011:



Well, based on your criteria - there must be a lot of illiterate people in Russia  :chuckle: I cannot mean that as an insult - as my former partner and current partner had forgotten most of their English - I encounter plenty of IT literate young people - on a daily basis - who's English is lousy - I do not consider them illiterate, either.  I understand your criteria may be different based on your stds. or 'eastern Europe' being the Balkans.

Certainly, I found more young e.europeans speak English

I stand corrected.



I believe you forget that I grew up in a nation where civil war was happening - I looked out over Belfast -  then I lived in the South of Ireland for a year and lived amongst refugees from Cyprus' strife....

I have seen bullets/ shells fly and ethnic cleansing - that my Father lived in the north of Ireland was a direct result of his Father's family - 'relocating'  ...   I try to see things from all perspectives..


Ok, then you understand. Many don't though.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on August 13, 2015, 03:43:08 AM
I thought this rather interesting, especially the first video: The complete historical timeline of how the US plotted & engineered the Coup in Kiev, starting in March 2013 (http://ian56.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/how-february-coup-in-kiev-was-plotted.html)


Without doubt the USA and Europe encouraged Ukraine to look to the west - but the articles overlook Ukraine's historical ties with Moscow - that were normally enforced - rather than sought - and the fact that Moscow constantly tried to control  / influence Kiev policy after independence.

it makes no mention of the Kremlin's hysterical counter to what was a - largely  - popular movement - with the majority of Ukrainians - to look to closer ties with the west  - whilst keeping close to Moscow -which would have been a win, win.. no mention of the 'danger' of  'fascists'  - who couldn't make it past 2 percent of TWO recent elections and the 'anti-Maidan' campaign funded by the Kremlin.

As result I thought the article and it's associated links read like a one-sided Kremlin sponsored attempt at re-writing history.
 :(




Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: bagalia on August 15, 2015, 11:15:18 PM
If this is true then it would be a severe blow to the Ukrainian military.
8,000 Ukrainian Security Personnel Side With Donbass Forces

http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20150814/1025747781.html

This is a bit misleading as the article makes it look as if it is recent but they are really talking about troops and police who went to the other side when this all began. Kiev is finally getting on with doing something about it all. Setting up a commission or something. Perhaps they will shoot them all after ww3.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on August 16, 2015, 12:34:32 AM


Truth lives in Russia’ says Deep Purple’s ex-vocalist Turner on visit to Crimea

American rock star Joe Lynn Turner, ex-vocalist for Deep Purple and Rainbow, has arrived in Crimea to give a number of concerts. At a press-conference given for the Russian media, he claimed that “sanctions do not apply to music.”

Quote
“I was warned I could be banned in Europe [for giving concerts in Crimea]… but I am a rebel, I have always been a rebel and I will always stay a rebel. I do not care what they say,” he added.

“I know the truth lives here. And I believe right now, this time Russia is going to be the great power that it already has been and that good always overcomes evil,” Joe Turner told reporters.

http://www.rt.com/news/312310-crimea-truth-joe-lynn-turner/



You maybe confusing someone who doesn't like to be told where he can go as a serious example to illustrate something that 'suits' your agenda to ignore the fact that how the Crimea came to be under Kremlin control was anything but acceptable in the 21C....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on August 17, 2015, 06:29:40 PM
Comment by John Pilger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilger) on Ukraine and how it is reported in the west.


The truth is the Ukraine it very not reported in the USA. If I go the an average Supper market here in Texas as ask the cashier what she thinks about Ukraine. She will just look at me funny and say something like, " What? Where is that? They have a war there?" For the most part no body here cares about Ukraine. It get very little news coverage. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on August 17, 2015, 07:02:27 PM
If it's any consolation, it's not just people from the Texas who make this mistake.

http://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on August 18, 2015, 01:51:29 AM
If I go the an average Supper market here in Texas as ask the cashier what she thinks about Ukraine. She will just look at me funny and say something like, " What? Where is that?

That would be because she is stupid and knows nothing of the world around her. Personally, I wouldn't canvass supermarket cashiers for their opinion on many things. When you meet someone whose working day consists of sliding toilet rolls over a red beam of light, these would not typically be the people you discuss world affairs with. The contents of Hello Magazine, perhaps. If that floats your boat.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on August 18, 2015, 02:47:57 AM
Thar same person will, when told to do so, just like you do, accept the programming of your thought leaders. The conditioning has already been done by limiting the language and thus thoughts that you are able to use.

That is how acceptance of  the enemy of the day transpires and along with it the conditioned hatred and fear.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on August 18, 2015, 03:57:55 AM
If Andrewfi's thiught process is followed through it might explain why so many Russians are so easily manipulated by the Kremlin controlled media ...

.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on August 18, 2015, 06:30:55 AM
If I go the an average Supper market here in Texas as ask the cashier what she thinks about Ukraine. She will just look at me funny and say something like, " What? Where is that?

That would be because she is stupid and knows nothing of the world around her. Personally, I wouldn't canvass supermarket cashiers for their opinion on many things. When you meet someone whose working day consists of sliding toilet rolls over a red beam of light, these would not typically be the people you discuss world affairs with. The contents of Hello Magazine, perhaps. If that floats your boat.

Manny you go through such trouble to complain about the USA media coverage of Ukraine that gets very little coverage here. Now if you ask about IS everyone knows about that because it gets a lot of news coverage. We have over twenty president candidates and the least known one will get more coverage in US news than Ukraine. It might make more since to blame the US news for hiding something because of its lack of coverage than blame it for bad coverage.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on August 21, 2015, 12:36:58 AM
More stand-up comedy from Petro:

Quote from: Poroshenko
Visit of Putin to the Ukrainian Crimea without the consent of the Ukrainian authorities is a continuation of the scenario of worsening of the situation.

https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/633248453364199425

If it were only poroshenko. It seems the American Embassy in Ukraine is equally funny:

Quote
The American embassy in Ukraine has asked US citizens not to visit a jazz festival in Crimea in late August, the embassy’s press service said on Thursday.

“Russian organizers will hold a ‘Koktebel Jazz Party”’ August 28-30 in Crimea. Crimea remains Ukrainian territory and this event is being conducted without the permission of the Government of Ukraine,” the embassy said.

Whole article here: http://novorossia.today/us-citizens-warned-against-visiting-crimean-jazz-festival/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on August 21, 2015, 10:28:13 PM
Thar same person will, when told to do so, just like you do, accept the programming of your thought leaders. The conditioning has already been done by limiting the language and thus thoughts that you are able to use.

That is how acceptance of  the enemy of the day transpires and along with it the conditioned hatred and fear.

Orwell accidentally wrote their manifesto ....

Wayne
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on August 23, 2015, 10:24:43 AM
I found this strange link in the odnoklassniki links my wife browses:

http://mianews.ru/ru/2015/07/28/agent-cru-rukovodil-unichtozheniem-samolyota-boing-777-v-novorossii-audiozapis/

Apparenty 2 agents chatting about preparing the buk-attack on MH17

Yes, I came across this a few weeks ago. It was quite convincing not because of the story itself but rather that the elements around the story voice, person, place were all 'right'. If it isn't genuine then somebody knows a lot more about this bloke than would be normal.
If a fake it is on a whole different level to the kind of stuff that the US staff working out of the SBU offices in Kiev is able to produce. Fake or not, it is of the same level as the Nuland/Pyatt or the Paet/Ashton leaks and both of those are accepted by all parties as being genuine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on August 23, 2015, 10:40:16 AM
I found this strange link in the odnoklassniki links my wife browses:

http://mianews.ru/ru/2015/07/28/agent-cru-rukovodil-unichtozheniem-samolyota-boing-777-v-novorossii-audiozapis/

Apparenty 2 agents chatting about preparing the buk-attack on MH17

Yes, I came across this a few weeks ago. It was quite convincing not because of the story itself but rather that the elements around the story voice, person, place were all 'right'. If it isn't genuine then somebody knows a lot more about this bloke than would be normal.
If a fake it is on a whole different level to the kind of stuff that the US staff working out of the SBU offices in Kiev is able to produce. Fake or not, it is of the same level as the Nuland/Pyatt or the Paet/Ashton leaks and both of those are accepted by all parties as being genuine.

Numbering the voices 1 and 2 , i can only discern that number 1 is an american and number 2 a brit , by sound of accents.

If i have to put a region to it, i'd say north america and london-district but i can't go deeper than that.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on August 23, 2015, 11:27:39 AM
I did something I hadn't done before. I checked the voices.
I have changed my mind. This is a fake. The details mentioned are interesting and this is not an amateur thing. However there was a point that struck me. David Lloyd Stern works for the BBC, I think he is a stringer, not an employee.

The bloke is American, his accent from his broadcast reports is noticeably American but not strongly so.

The recording's David Stern is English, yes, I  think North London. They are not the same person.

The recordings are processed and have lots of ringing distortion which covers up some detail. Listening again now I think that what we are hearing is scripted, not a conversation, the timing is wrong.

Some 'reviews' suggested that the voices are not USAians or British at all, I think that the 'Stern' voice is English or a very good speaker. The other bloke is harder for me to tell.

The source where I picked this up from had a lot more material and at least one more recording but I am happy that this is the same material as I heard a while back.

Here's a report from David Stern in Kiev. Scroll down to see the video with David's commentary. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29536641
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on August 25, 2015, 09:12:48 PM
The audio was cut and pasted, not too bad a job.

The 'noise' sounds like standard electronic signature of scrambling devices circa the 1990's.  But, since that would be 20+ year old technology, the noise was added.

If you notice, 'buk' replaced a different sound bite. He had been talking about 'complex.'  In no way, would complex normally be used to describe a launch site.  And had 'complex' been 'code' for the buk launch site he definitely would NOT have then mentioned buk.

Then again, this could be the Russian SVD hiring the SIS to do dirty work for them.  When you hire the cheapest bidder, your quality drops like a rock.

Wayne
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on August 28, 2015, 01:55:22 PM
Kinda difficult to understand what Poroshenko is trying to accomplish?
 He seems to take a different stance each,and every day.
IF the Minsk 2 agreement is fine, then why the hell hasn't the fighting stopped?

Ukraine’s Poroshenko says ‘no Minsk-3’ as Moscow hopes for ceasefire

https://www.rt.com/news/313646-poroshenko-ukraine-minsk-agreement/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on August 29, 2015, 06:02:53 AM
Kinda difficult to understand what Poroshenko is trying to accomplish?
 He seems to take a different stance each,and every day.
IF the Minsk 2 agreement is fine, then why the hell hasn't the fighting stopped?

Ukraine’s Poroshenko says ‘no Minsk-3’ as Moscow hopes for ceasefire

https://www.rt.com/news/313646-poroshenko-ukraine-minsk-agreement/

Poroshenko is the classic man serving two masters.
We have all seen similar situations in the world of work. An employee is made the direct report of two different managers and expected to follow both their instructions.

Personally, I still think that Poroshenko is in favour of ending the attacks upon the LPR/DPR and of ending the Anti Terrorist Action but he is not being allowed to do so by stakeholders, internal and external, who see continued benefit in the descent of Ukraine into chaos.

Remember, as president, Poroshenko has relatively little direct power. The 'new' constitution took away the necessary power from the president. Right now Poroshenko (and Ukraine) need the constitutional powers of the president under the previous version of the Ukraine Constitution. But, even with that, until Poroshenko is given permission to do so by his ultimate report, there will be no movement on the Minsk 2 agreement and Ukraine will not start to follow its terms.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on August 29, 2015, 09:34:02 AM
It's doubtful, but would be beneficial for all involved. :coffeeread:

Hollande, Merkel, Putin back ceasefire plan for eastern Ukraine: France

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0QY0HY20150829
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on August 29, 2015, 01:08:29 PM
It's doubtful, but would be beneficial for all involved. :coffeeread:

Hollande, Merkel, Putin back ceasefire plan for eastern Ukraine: France

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0QY0HY20150829
And in the picture they show a Ukrainian army man with a crying woman (his gf)... but where are the dead children, women from the other side.

Again they are showing their bias.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: BCKev on August 29, 2015, 04:29:35 PM
You are showing your own bias.  There are dead children on both sides. 


.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on August 30, 2015, 02:18:23 AM
You are showing your own bias.  There are dead children on both sides.  .
So where are the dead from the other side? They show only kiev's.

Thats not my bias, thats a simple fact I stated.

And yes , my own bias is very, very clear. Anti-war.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on August 30, 2015, 10:40:31 AM
TWO-STATE SOLUTION FOR UKRAINE?

http://www.i24news.tv/en/mobile#content/83917
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: BCKev on August 30, 2015, 01:27:48 PM

You are showing your own bias.  There are dead children on both sides.  .
So where are the dead from the other side? They show only kiev's.

Thats not my bias, thats a simple fact I stated.

And yes , my own bias is very, very clear. Anti-war.


Not at all,  re read the second paragraph of the article you referenced:   
"Daily clashes between the two forces killing civilians, Ukrainian soldiers and separatists"



.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 06, 2015, 02:47:09 AM
All in dutch, but too long for me to translate.

Suffice it to say that there isn't much to disagree with here and it shows the western antirussian atmosphere through proof so strong, you have to wonder.

The author is community-funded by asking sponsors to donate for his 'quality journalism' work.

http://politiek.tpo.nl/2015/08/21/hoe-het-westen-een-oorlog-dreigt-te-wandelen/

Quote from: putin 2005
Putin has since 1999 made his ideas on the future of the Russian state clear to his audience. For many years, and at numerous international meetings, he also warned the West to continue not to interfere in Russia's backyard. In 2005, at a summit in Bratislava, he exploded to US President George W. Bush. His tirade came down to this: "We have done everything we could to satisfy you. We have supported the war on terror, we have closed military bases, we have allowed you to unilaterally terminate the ABM Treaty, even Iraq was not really a problem and what did we get in return? Nothing. "

Putin wasn't wrong was he?

This bit reads right too:

Quote
Meanwhile, the Crimea is Russian, eastern and southern Ukraine on fire, more than 2500 people have been slain, including many civilians - nearly 200 of them Dutch - and despite today a ceasefire to take effect, but few people have confidence in a peaceful solution.

This senseless tragedy, because that's it, could have been avoided. The West, Ukraine and Russia in recent months to find a solution in negotiations. The West had, instead of sticking to its ritual expansion fetishism, Russia's objections to the expansion of the EU and must take seriously the NATO and to convince the rulers in Kiev sure that it is in the interest of Kiev is when no more former Soviet republics joined the EU and NATO are. At least not in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 06, 2015, 03:35:00 AM

You are showing your own bias.  There are dead children on both sides.  .
So where are the dead from the other side? They show only kiev's.

Thats not my bias, thats a simple fact I stated.

And yes , my own bias is very, very clear. Anti-war.


Not at all,  re read the second paragraph of the article you referenced:   
"Daily clashes between the two forces killing civilians, Ukrainian soldiers and separatists".
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on September 07, 2015, 01:57:57 PM
Quote

War Waged Against Russia Now Being Waged Against China - Russian ex-Spy

An ex-Russian spy who worked in the United States for more than 20 years shares his forecast for Russia and its closest allies, from where should we expect the next “Orange revolution”, to what the relationship between Europe and the US is going to look like.

For many years, Donald Heathfield was a model American citizen. He owned a successful company specializing in strategic forecasting, held a Harvard degree, and had a wife and two kids.

It couldn't have occurred to any of his friends or colleagues that his real name was Andrei Bezrukov and that he was the head of a Russian spy network.

Since the end of the last century until several years ago, Bezurkov worked as a covert Russian agent abroad and during that time, did not utter a single word in Russian.


Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150906/1026663159/russia-china-geopolitics-forecast.html#ixzz3l28va2b5


Fascinating story.  Thanks for the link.  I will post a counterpoint to this story within a few days.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 09, 2015, 07:02:19 AM
A very interesting and well-written article here on Putin. I don't agree with all, but its more right than wrong. The writing is good and the thinking logical.

The writer has done his best to be quite objective, and despite what the title suggests, the article is not a pro-Putin piece -  see what you think: PUTIN’S STRATEGY IS FAR BETTER THAN YOU THINK (http://warontherocks.com/2015/09/putin-is-a-far-better-strategist-than-you-think/)

Manny, do tell us where you disagree. The article is the nearest thinfg to a perfect summation of the situation and Putin's MO
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 09, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
A very interesting and well-written article here on Putin. I don't agree with all, but its more right than wrong. The writing is good and the thinking logical.

The writer has done his best to be quite objective, and despite what the title suggests, the article is not a pro-Putin piece -  see what you think: PUTIN’S STRATEGY IS FAR BETTER THAN YOU THINK (http://warontherocks.com/2015/09/putin-is-a-far-better-strategist-than-you-think/)

Manny, do tell us where you disagree. The article is the nearest thinfg to a perfect summation of the situation and Putin's MO

I moved your reply to the correct topic, again.  (:)

I did say it was a good article. It goes alright until a glaring inaccuracy:

Quote
At that point, only overt use of force would accomplish what Moscow wanted, hence it openly invaded.

If there was anything that could be called an "invasion", it certainly wasn't open.

Quote
. Putin had warned in the past that he saw the country as largely artificial and might not respect its integrity if it was pulled so sharply to the West.

This is not true. The sources he cites are both western propaganda sources (Ben Judah claimed phrases that do not appear in the text - as he often does. And the "Moscow Times" simply speculates). The actual text of what was said at Bucharest is here (http://archive.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speeches/2008/04/04/1949_type82915_163150.shtml) and only mentions Ukraine once. So that bit seems simply made up from spurious sources.

Quote
Moscow then launched a campaign in eastern Ukraine designed to neutralize the post-Maidan government, prevent Western integration, and retain Russian influence in the country.

This again, is assumption. No "campaign" as such has been launched.

Quote
By August of 2014, the conflict in the Donbas had escalated into a limited conventional war in which Russia had almost complete operational control and the ability force Ukraine to sign the Minsk protocol. The initial deal only gave the parties breathing space; Ukraine rearmed while Russia consolidated. In February of 2015, Russia inflicted a more strategically costly defeat for Ukraine and imposed another ceasefire agreement that was highly favorable to its interests.

The implication here is Russia on its own dreamed up the ceasefire, and then implemented it, which isn't true. The "full operational control" also isn't true.

Quote
but is still calibrating the use of military force to get the political concessions it wants from Kiev

Also debatable.

Quote
The invasion of Ukraine may have even saved Putin’s presidency.

Untrue and silly.

Quote
Putin made NATO’s eastern members worry about their security guarantees

Also untrue, America manufactured that "fear". He accepts in the article already the risk to the Baltics is zero. They know that too, thus he is contradicting himself.

Quote
European nations did not impose damaging economic sanctions on Russia when it annexed Crimea, but only after the shooting down of MH17.

The implication here is clear; and untrue.

Quote
a collective European belief in the need to face down Russia.

Again here, he contradicts himself. I suggest there is no such thing.

Quote
his dishonesty in recent dealings has permanently damaged Russia’s credibility

I disagree with that.

Quote
No surprise that Vladimir Putin, who does not believe in rule of law

That is untrue.

But like I said, well-written, a good read and on the money in many respects.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 09, 2015, 12:56:57 PM
The problem with well written but fundamentally dishonest pieces is that if the only things we can be sure of are those which we already know then we can learn nothing. If one is less well informed then one will be reading a work of fiction and come away misinformed and with attitudes created or prejudices confirmed.

Well written untruths are still untruths.

One might ask why I used the word 'dishonest'. I did so because of the article shows signs of being well crafted in large part from factual material then we can safely infer that the fabrications are there purposefully.
It is like when certain posters here write rubbish - they may be uninformed to a stunning degree, they may be demonstrating a severe lack of analytical ability but they are not being dishonest. Other people, including the writer of this piece, demonstrate that they are not ill-informed yet they choose to write stuff that they know to be untrue and/or misleading. That is dishonest.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on September 11, 2015, 05:19:17 PM
Poroshenko might be better off compromising with the west and Putin, rather than being defiant.

Poroshenko has ace up his sleeve ahead of October talks, expert says

Pres Poroshenko said recently he may introduce the martial law if the Minsk agreements are not implemented by the rebels, Replyua reports Sept. 11

http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/09/11/poroshenko_has_ace_in_his_sleeve_ahead_of_october_talks_expert_says_623587
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 11, 2015, 06:36:51 PM
Martial law is not going to happen. The president knows, because his office has already, last year clarified, that if martial law were to be declared that IMF funding would cease as would supply of most military equipment.

The junta needs to pretend that there is a war, rather than an ethnic cleansing,  but will not ever take the step of placing the government in the hands of the military. Although the stated target is the border between the punishment forces and the civilians of the DPR/LPR the real target of these threats is likely the Romanian and Hungarian regions which have been getting a little bit too uppity recently.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on September 11, 2015, 10:46:26 PM
Martial law is not going to happen. The president knows, because his office has already, last year clarified, that if martial law were to be declared that IMF funding would cease as would supply of most military equipment.

The junta needs to pretend that there is a war, rather than an ethnic cleansing,  but will not ever take the step of placing the government in the hands of the military. Although the stated target is the border between the punishment forces and the civilians of the DPR/LPR the real target of these threats is likely the Romanian and Hungarian regions which have been getting a little bit too uppity recently.

What ethnic cleansing as it is not happening. My girl is ethnic Russian and from this area and she has not problem with anything like. Her mother just when back to Donbas to care for her grandparents. No body has been cleansed.

The population of the area has decrease because the people are tire of the war and left.  800 thousand in Russia most living with relatives in Russia, 400 thousand to Poland, and a about 1.3 million number all over the Ukraine most living with relatives. Putin building military base near Donbas where he is likely planning to keep the war going for the long term to keep Ukraine poor. Nearly half of the people left in Donbas are pensioner.  Population of this region has dropped from 4.5 million to a little above 2 million. Population of this region will likely continue to decline. Most people have given up on the war being short. Most new people leaving Donbas this are staying in the Ukraine.

Putin planning to have embargo on Ukraine to punish it more for entering trade agreement with EU. 

Also note the UN and EU and well as most of the world does not consider the government of Ukraine a Junta. Only you blots from that believe hook a line and sinker the Putin BS come up with that crap. I guess you would still have the Ukraine without a president.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 12, 2015, 03:09:42 AM
Also note the UN and EU and well as most of the world does not consider the government of Ukraine a Junta.

You are confusing the past with the present.

Yanukovich government : Legally chosen into office.
Yanokovich's outing : ILLEGAL , all of the russian sphere (including Poroshenko) says so.
Current government : LEGAL! Even Putin/Russia agrees on that.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 12, 2015, 06:00:33 AM
I sometimes refer to the Kievan administration as a junta because, well, it is. The word, in this context, has little to do with legitimacy, after all, in the end the man with the gun has the power - nothing else matters.

There's several reasons for using the term, not the least because it is used by the people in the LPR/DPR to distinguish between the previous obviously legitimate government and this administration that they regard as temporary and not legitimate.

However, Texan, until you actually know what you are going on about why not hang fire on criticising the words used by others. ;)
You could have asked why I used the term - it would have gotten you further.

Russia has chose to recognise the current administration because they have to work with them, that says nothing of the Russian government and state's opinion of their legality. The current Kievan administration should not be there - but they are there and they have the gun.

Oh, Texan, is it possible for a man to know less about the topic he expounds upon than you?
Do you know how many people have fled from the Donbas region into Russia alone?
Do you know how many non-combatant people in the region have been killed?
Do you know anything of the law passed by the Rada that empowers the administration to remove those deemed as 'not Ukrainian enough' by force from their homes?
Ethnic cleansing is a nice, fluffy, cleaned up, phrase for folks whose sensibilities are hurt by the word genocide. It means to kill or remove people from their living place on the basis of their ethnicity.
If you don't think that is what is going on in Ukraine then, sunshine, you have not got the faintest idea of what you are burbling on about.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on September 12, 2015, 08:37:06 AM
The best option for Ukraine is to negotiate an end to the conflict.
But this could in turn bring unrest to Kiev, and western Ukraine.
Poroshenko made too many promises that he can't possibly keep.
Ukraine may have internal conflicts for years to come, when one group is given concessions,others will expect the same.

Ukraine Heads Back to the Negotiating Table

https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/ukraine-heads-back-negotiating-table
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on September 12, 2015, 08:58:42 AM
I sometimes refer to the Kievan administration as a junta because, well, it is. The word, in this context, has little to do with legitimacy, after all, in the end the man with the gun has the power - nothing else matters.

There's several reasons for using the term, not the least because it is used by the people in the LPR/DPR to distinguish between the previous obviously legitimate government and this administration that they regard as temporary and not legitimate.

However, Texan, until you actually know what you are going on about why not hang fire on criticising the words used by others. ;)
You could have asked why I used the term - it would have gotten you further.

Russia has chose to recognise the current administration because they have to work with them, that says nothing of the Russian government and state's opinion of their legality. The current Kievan administration should not be there - but they are there and they have the gun.

Oh, Texan, is it possible for a man to know less about the topic he expounds upon than you?
Do you know how many people have fled from the Donbas region into Russia alone?
Do you know how many non-combatant people in the region have been killed?
Do you know anything of the law passed by the Rada that empowers the administration to remove those deemed as 'not Ukrainian enough' by force from their homes?
Ethnic cleansing is a nice, fluffy, cleaned up, phrase for folks whose sensibilities are hurt by the word genocide. It means to kill or remove people from their living place on the basis of their ethnicity.
If you don't think that is what is going on in Ukraine then, sunshine, you have not got the faintest idea of what you are burbling on about.

The war is removing nearly all non Russian speakers from the from Donbas. If that is what you saying?  Because that is what it is doing. The ethnic cleansing is all people who lived in Donbas that had an Ukraine accent have had to leave.

Also the war is depopulation the area of all kinds of people not based on race.  All races are leaving. None Russian speaker even more than Russian speakers. Yes eight hundred thousand have fled to Russia, four hundred thousand to Poland and about 1.3 million to the rest of the Ukraine. The population is now less than half of what it was. No body is going to rebuild this area and time soon. So in all likelihood the population will continue to decrease all ethnic groups.

It has been a huge financial blow to the Ukraine to completely lose this industrial area and all of it industry. But this is what Russia is wanting to do. That is destroy the Ukraine for want to join the EU. Keep this war going long term so the Ukraine can not recover and join in the future.  Putin is a master at what he does and he is going it well in the Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on September 12, 2015, 09:48:20 AM
Also note the UN and EU and well as most of the world does not consider the government of Ukraine a Junta.

You are confusing the past with the present.

Yanukovich government : Legally chosen into office.
Yanokovich's outing : ILLEGAL , all of the russian sphere (including Poroshenko) says so.
Current government : LEGAL! Even Putin/Russia agrees on that.

This is so true with Putin., No mater what it is if Putin does it is it legal. If someone else does it and Putin does not like it then it is not.

If you knew anything about law like you claim you would realized how stupid this argument is. Even in basic History classes in the US we learn that a government must do what is need to keep the government running even if the Constitution needs to be read differently. Even so they found away of doing it with in the frame work of the constitution only Putin will not recognized it because it does not befit him and his ability to get support for this war.

Also this is an internal problem in the Ukraine why is Russia so concern? Just think if some other country was treating Russia the same way Russia is treating the internal problem in the Ukraine and telling Russia what was legal inside Russia, how Putin would scream and hell, maybe attacked someone. In the West many of us, with Putin's control over the news and his ability to close down any opposing parties, do not feel any election in is legal.

Who is Putin or for that matter you to say what is Legal inside the Ukraine????   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 12, 2015, 10:28:20 AM
This is so true with Putin., No mater what it is if Putin does it is it legal. If someone else does it and Putin does not like it then it is not.

If you knew anything about law like you claim you would realized how stupid this argument is.
My wife was a lawyer and knows a hell of a lot more than either of us about Ukrainian Laws. She said its illegal so I go with her opinion.

Quote
Even in basic History classes in the US we learn that a government must do what is need to keep the government running even if the Constitution needs to be read differently. Even so they found away of doing it with in the frame work of the constitution only Putin will not recognized it because it does not befit him and his ability to get support for this war.
Thats total bullshit, the government cannot ignore the law, until they stop being a democracy and become a dictatorship.

Quote
Also this is an internal problem in the Ukraine why is Russia so concern? Just think if some other country was treating Russia the same way Russia is treating the internal problem in the Ukraine and telling Russia what was legal inside Russia, how Putin would scream and hell, maybe attacked someone. In the West many of us, with Putin's control over the news and his ability to close down any opposing parties, do not feel any election in is legal.
It is not Russia Concerned, it is simply Russia commenting on the change of power. It is their god-given right to do so!

Quote
Who is Putin or for that matter you to say what is Legal inside the Ukraine????
He probably knows a lot more than either of us on Slavic Lawsystems or has advisors he trusts more than our opinion, therefore it is completely relevant.

Mark.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 12, 2015, 01:01:16 PM
For those not aware - Putin is a lawyer with a master's degree from Saint Petersburg.
As a matter of personal style he is very much a believer in the rule of law and works from the premise of 'legal first'. You may not agree with some things that the Russian State has done but where it has been controlled by Putin you can be sure that it has a very firm legal basis and there will be no forum lawyer to gainsay him. ;)

His expertise is the reason why the Minsk Agreements are worded as they are.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on September 12, 2015, 03:08:32 PM
If you put twelve lawyers in a room you will get a different opinion from each one. Still Putin creates this stuff just so he can justify his war against the Ukraine. It not a matter of law, but rather a matter of propaganda. This is all part of the big plan to destroy the Ukraine and any prospect of a bright future it people ever had.

The constitution had a way to declare the president unable to do his job. Then promote the next in command. That is what the Ukraine did. The constitutional people in advising the parliament of the Ukraine said this is legal. The UN agreed. The EU agreed. Most of the rest of the world agreed. Only Russia who wanted to destroy the Ukraine complained it was illegal. This man was voted into his position long before Yamu left. He was never a Junta by any meaning of the term. Putin knows this too but used that word to justify his ongoing war against the Ukraine. Then they had a new electron to vote in the new president. Putin claim this was illegal also as more propaganda to justify his continued war on the Ukraine. 

If what Putin said was right and was followed, the Ukraine would be just left with no government. Million would die and they would or migrate to Europe. This is what I brought up to Mark. Any constitute government will read is constitution in away that will prevent the shut down of it government and basic services the government provide for the benefit of its people. This is true in England also. It will do this in away that the most elected people possible would be part of the process to get passed the impasse and to have an electron as soon as possible. This is what the Ukraine did. Yes Putin very well know this, but how does seeing this help him destroy the Ukraine? It does not so he keeps saying illegal. It justifies what ever he does in the Ukraine.     
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 12, 2015, 04:17:24 PM
I know we have said this before, Texan, but there is no "the" before Ukraine.

Like you don't say the America or the England or the France, you don't say the Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on September 12, 2015, 09:42:22 PM
 My wife was a lawyer and knows a hell of a lot more than either of us about Ukrainian Laws. She said its illegal so I go with her.

gee get a life. I bet you have never been around any real ligation and have no idea how the real system works. There many ways to look at the most legal cases and often lawyers have different opinions. It does not mean that any of them is right when the case is decided. Just because your wife is a lawyer does not mean she is right. It means she can practice law.

I do not know of a single president that has ever been impeached legally in the way your wife means it. The process takes too long and the government can not function. In the real world what the Ukraine did is what is always done in some form because it has to be.

If the real impeachment process would have been followed then the local governments would take over and with the corruption soon  break down. Before the case was decided it would be anarchy. There would be no police, no fire departments, no utilities, all because of some stupid idea that it was the law. No country has ever done that. It has always some form of what Ukraine did. This is part why is the real world it is called legal.

The Lawyers at the UN who study the case know better than you wife. They said it is legal. Since the process was done with a parliament who was elected by the people and the parliament remained in power after new president was installed it was in no way a junta.

This whole story about Junta and illegal government is because Putin wants to destroy Ukraine with this war and all of this is part of the war is the propaganda war against Ukraine. It is not just Putin's opinion it is how he get Russians to volunteer to go to eastern Ukraine and fight. Many people are dead because of Putin's knowing misleading people to believe the government is illegal government. That is why it matters.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 13, 2015, 03:40:50 AM
My wife was a lawyer and knows a hell of a lot more than either of us about Ukrainian Laws. She said its illegal so I go with her.

gee get a life. I bet you have never been around any real ligation and have no idea how the real system works. There many ways to look at the most legal cases and often lawyers have different opinions. It does not mean that any of them is right when the case is decided. Just because your wife is a lawyer does not mean she is right. It means she can practice law.
Would've been better if you left my quote intact, this was a bit hard to decipher. My wife has the Ukrainian constitution in schoolbooks right here at home. The english version is online. It all says the same: This was an illegal move to depose yanukovich.

Quote
I do not know of a single president that has ever been impeached legally in the way your wife means it. The process takes too long and the government can not function. In the real world what the Ukraine did is what is always done in some form because it has to be.

If the real impeachment process would have been followed then the local governments would take over and with the corruption soon  break down. Before the case was decided it would be anarchy. There would be no police, no fire departments, no utilities, all because of some stupid idea that it was the law. No country has ever done that. It has always some form of what Ukraine did. This is part why is the real world it is called legal.
If they would have followed the law of Ukraine, they should have named the 2nd in command (premier in Ukraine's case) in command, however they ALSO replaced him. That makes this no less than a coup and the following government between feb-may 100% illegal. Imagine if a small armed force of about 20.000 men suddenly replaced obama and his second in command. They do not represent the rest of the country and California + Texas start to riot and want to "break away" into a new america, novomerica. A strong ally sets them up with military and a bloody civil war starts.

Now in Ukraine's case thats basicly what happened.

Quote
The Lawyers at the UN who study the case know better than you wife. They said it is legal.
IF they did, they understood nothing of Ukrainian law. It is not splitting hairs, it is not worded flowery and blustery. It is crystal-clear in just 2-3 sentences what can and cannot happen. ILLEGAL is what hapened. It was worded exactly like that so ordinary people without law degrees can judge themselves what happened. Read up on the law of Ukraine, it is clear and unambigious. You will understand yourself.

The fact that the UN says otherwise is more than worrying me, its scares me half to death. It means they no longer uphold democracy and fair legal processes. It means they are supporting anarchy and law-of-the-strongest instead of laws written down on paper. I know a hell of a lot more in this case than the average person.

Quote
Since the process was done with a parliament who was elected by the people and the parliament remained in power after new president was installed it was in no way a junta.
Nope, the parliament in power was a small 8% representing the people (pravi sektor / svoboda) , thats why a civil war started!

Quote
This whole story about Junta and illegal government is because Putin wants to destroy Ukraine with this war and all of this is part of the war is the propaganda war against Ukraine. It is not just Putin's opinion it is how he get Russians to volunteer to go to eastern Ukraine and fight. Many people are dead because of Putin's knowing misleading people to believe the government is illegal government. That is why it matters.
Read up on the law. Putin is right.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 15, 2015, 09:01:05 AM
A Media Primer on the Art of Writing Russian Scare Stories

http://russia-insider.com/en/media-criticism/media-primer-art-writing-russian-scare-stories/ri9725

I read that this morning and thought it quite good as well.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on September 15, 2015, 09:30:32 AM
Thanks for highlighting that article Tom Cat.

One could use that as a primer on how to read articles and 'news' reports as well as simply making the point about very poor quality writing on the subject. There's some very good points made in the piece that are directly relevant to informed consumption of 'news' media.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on September 19, 2015, 06:53:32 PM
The Novorussian militia, has come a long way to become a real military force.
One might question if they had outside help?

Novorussian Militias Transforming Into a Modern Army (Must-See Recruiting Video)

http://russia-insider.com/en/military/novorussian-militias-transforming-modern-army-must-see-recruiting-video/ri9812
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 22, 2015, 02:25:24 AM


The many gullible (or just crudely and ignorantly anti-Russia) journalists and politicians who sided with the Kiev putsch of February 2014 really ought to be more interested in the latest news from Ukraine.


Would that be the 'putsch' were the President ran away to avoid being impeached and his own politically party expelled him and two subsequent elections backed up that most Ukrainians were in support  ? At least you dropped the Kremlin mantra of 'FASCISTS' ..

The supposedly heroic new President of the supposedly free and uncorrupt and generally wonderful new Ukraine, the oligarch who doesn’t like being called an oligarch, Petro Poroshenko, has announced a ban on lots of journalists (and indeed other individuals).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/ukraine-president-bans-journalists-from-country?CMP=ema_546

Manny, the guy was the ONLY Oligarch - who stood up to Yanu' and his 'family business' - so much for your heroic slur..

I readily concede banning journos is a dangerous path to thread - but I guess you know how 'popular' speaking out against the underhand Kremlin policy can be in Russia - and threats received, accordingly.

IF Britain was invaded by another nation - would the govt allow that nation's journos to cover the situation ? - the country is at war - you conveniently forget that

These people are accused of promoting ‘terrorist activities’ ( a charge very similar to catch-all offences under the Blairite Terrorism Act which are still, shamefully on our own statute book) or of being a ‘threat to national interests’.

Manny, as you know - very well - the concept of 'traitor' in Russia is to disagree with Kremlin policy - you will be found 'guilty' of something - to be silenced.... as the only MP who voted against the annexation of Crimea can testify...Ilya Ponomarev.


The decree is barmy and self-defeating, and in a way laughable. But can you imagine the enormous fuss that would be made if Vladimir Putin were to do the same? Compare, then, and contrast the minimal coverage it has received, because it issues from Ukraine.

Again, censorship of media is a really drastic step to take - but let's not pretend that the Kremlin's media watch dog hasn't closed down operations that are critical of govt. policy on bs pretexts...

I think one of your site's sponsors would be glad that Ukraine doesn't make the news these days - another frozen conflict - with the ultimate resolution being under Kremlin control.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 22, 2015, 12:01:53 PM
Moby, you posted on a no-comment topic where people post snippets and links, so I moved it for you - again.  (:)

You also attributed the quotes to me, when in fact they were Peter Hitchens's words. Clearly denoted in the post by the link to the article (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,21492.msg420102.html#msg420102). I have corrected your erroneous quotes as well.

Please read better.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 22, 2015, 01:08:55 PM
Moby, you posted on a no-comment topic where people post snippets and links, so I moved it for you - again.  (:)

You also attributed the quotes to me, when in fact they were Peter Hitchens's words. Clearly denoted in the post by the link to the article (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,21492.msg420102.html#msg420102). I have corrected your erroneous quotes as well.

Please read better.

Manny, I apologise for attributing someone else's nonsense to you.

I do not deliberately 'break' your rule - I just hit the reply / quote button and it permits me
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 22, 2015, 05:19:50 PM
As it goes, I agree with Peter's comments there. You are free to debate him @ClarkeMicah or on his blog if so inclined.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 23, 2015, 12:05:32 AM
As it goes, I agree with Peter's comments there. You are free to debate him @ClarkeMicah or on his blog if so inclined.

No, I'll live that to my better trained 'colleagues' at the Ukraine troll factory.... :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 23, 2015, 03:58:12 AM
Or leave, even...

.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on October 05, 2015, 11:22:04 AM

A surprising burst of common sense from the British media.

Quote
Overall, it is better to have Russia fully involved in Syria than on the sidelines so it has the opportunity to help regain control over a situation that long ago spun out of control. It can keep Assad in power in Damascus, but the power to do so means that it can also modify his behaviour and force movement towards reducing violence, local ceasefires and sharing power regionally. It was always absurd for Washington and its allies to frame the problem as one of “Assad in or Assad out”, when an end to the Assad leadership would lead either to the disintegration of the Syrian state, as in Iraq and Libya, or would have limited impact because participants in the Syrian civil war would simply go on fighting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-crisis-lets-welcome-russias-entry-into-this-war-a6678526.html

-----------------------
end to the Assad leadership would lead either to the disintegration of the Syrian state,
Why I believe thats a direct quote from Putin, even if they didn't credit him in the article.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on October 05, 2015, 11:29:30 AM
Of course there are significant interests who would want to see a splintered Syria.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on October 05, 2015, 11:34:27 AM
US Satellites Work In Syria, But Not Ukraine

http://russia-insider.com/en/us-satellites-work-syria-not-ukraine/ri10106

Not really much of a surprise. Note that all the photos used by US sources are from non US government sources in other words for profit companies. Until war started between Ukraine and Russia there probably wasn't much in the way of a need for commercial satellite images of the Donbass. After all prior to the war what ever happened there that would make the news?

OTOH there's been a need for commercial satellite images of many areas of the Middle East for decades. There's been wars going on in the ME forever. So satellites images have probably been in demand since whenever the first commercial satellites started covering the areas of the ME.

Because of this companies such as DigitalGlobe are going to make sure their best equipment is in any satellites that orbit in demand areas such as the ME so they can provide their customers with the best possible images of the areas in demand. In other words it's just good business to make sure the best satellite images are available for areas of the ME.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on October 07, 2015, 03:31:13 PM
A surprising burst of common sense from the British media.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-crisis-lets-welcome-russias-entry-into-this-war-a6678526.html

Why 'surprising' ? - it's more  your selective opinion, perhaps ... I DID recommend the Indy to you  - many times... It offers all viewpoints a soap-box.

I prefer a bit you missed..

''One of the many problems in ending, or even de-escalating these crises, is that these self-interested players are strong enough to fight their own corners, but too weak to ever checkmate their opponents. This is why the involvement of Moscow could have a positive impact: Russia is at least a heavy hitter, capable of shaping events by its own actions and strongly influencing the behaviour of its allies and proxies.

Barack Obama said at a news conference after the Russian airstrikes that “we’re not going to make Syria into a proxy war between the United States and Russia”. But the US-Soviet Cold War, and the global competition that went with it, had benefits for much of the world. Both superpowers sought to support their own allies and prevent political vacuums from developing which its opposite number might exploit. Crises did not fester in the way they do today, and Russians and Americans could see the dangers of them slipping wholly out of control and provoking an international crisis.  ''

Thanks for posting a thought provoking article ...

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on October 19, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
Oh, the irony cup runneth over................

Quote
The U.S. government has condemned this plan as a genuine threat and protested sharply against it. Washington has announced that it will immediately take corresponding defensive measures against a military encirclement of the United States. It will likewise put a stop to attempts to destabilize the United States through subversion, of which it had been aware for quite some time.

Their first action will be to deport the representatives of several nongovernmental organizations that are accused of constantly interfering in domestic affairs. U.S. authorities also report acts of espionage on behalf of foreign powers, as well as attempts to instigate the separation of Alaska, California, Florida, and Hawaii from the United States.


http://russia-insider.com/en/alarming-chinese-missile-defense-mexicos-border/ri5930

When the USA was putting ballistic missiles in Turkey, Russia countered with missiles in Cuba.
This caused the Cuban missile crisis.  End result?  No missiles in Turkey and no missiles in Cuba.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on October 21, 2015, 04:19:34 AM

When the USA was putting ballistic missiles in Turkey, Russia countered with missiles in Cuba.
This caused the Cuban missile crisis.  End result?  No missiles in Turkey and no missiles in Cuba.

QUITE

The much maligned Khrushchev is portrayed as the 'weak, loser' in the context of the crisis.. yet he managed to get the USA's Jupiters in Italy and Turkey quietly removed.




 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on October 27, 2015, 01:16:16 AM
Poroshenko can claim a small victory, but these elections were not without the usual scandals.


Poroshenko hobbles on
President bloodied but unbowed after Sunday’s local elections

http://www.politico.eu/article/petro-poroshenko-hobbles-on-ukraine-local-election-vote-rigging/

Ukrainian newspapers are falling all over themselves calling out these elections as being fraudulant, but.....

Despite the huge inconsistencies, western media and the osce reports everything was hanky-doody... Right ,so much for the impartial osce... Moby??? where art thou, the OSCE is misbehaving badly here.

MArk.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on October 27, 2015, 01:53:52 AM
Poroshenko can claim a small victory, but these elections were not without the usual scandals.


Poroshenko hobbles on
President bloodied but unbowed after Sunday’s local elections

http://www.politico.eu/article/petro-poroshenko-hobbles-on-ukraine-local-election-vote-rigging/

Ukrainian newspapers are falling all over themselves calling out these elections as being fraudulant, but.....

Despite the huge inconsistencies, western media and the osce reports everything was hanky-doody... Right ,so much for the impartial osce... Moby??? where art thou, the OSCE is misbehaving badly here.

MArk.


Dear Mark

you must be reading a different set of writings..

Some exerpts rom the OSCE site


The Campaign Environment and Campaign Finance

The campaign environment was competitive. However, it was dominated by wealthy donors and
their associated business interests who focused their resources on the mayoral and oblast council
races. The campaign was more visible in urban than in rural communities, and especially subdued
in government-controlled territories in Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts. It intensified in all regions
closer to election day. Problems with the registration of some political parties and candidates
resulted in the delay and interruption of candidates’ campaigns and shaped the campaign debate in
certain regions, in particular in eastern and southern oblasts. Freedom of assembly was generally
respected.

The campaign took place against a backdrop of growing disillusionment with the political
establishment, an ongoing economic crisis and the slow implementation of anti-corruption policies.

The campaign was dominated by national issues of reform, order and stability. Only a few
contestants focused on local issues and on the actual powers and responsibilities of local councils.
Parties and candidates with ample resources, strong media connections and able to recruit active
campaign staff used a variety of methods to campaign, including TV and radio advertisements, billboards, campaign tents, print materials, free concerts and rallies. Many parties had an active
digital campaign and held meetings with small groups of voters.
In some instances, government officials took an active role in the campaign, both as supporters and
candidates.
 In other cases, incumbent mayors and councillors running for re-election initiated a
series of amendments to council decisions in order to fulfill electoral promises of the last
campaign.Incumbent candidates are allowed to campaign while in office, but campaign activities
of these officials during working hours gave rise to a number of allegations regarding the misuse of
administrative resources. The use of municipal websites for campaign purposes and distribution or
posting of materials on public transport, which is prohibited by law, was observed by
OSCE/ODIHR EOM LTOs.

Voters had a wide array of parties and candidates to choose from, with the exception of districts in
Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts. New faces from various backgrounds, such as servicemen of the
Ukraine Armed Forces, volunteer battalion commanders, police officers, civic activists, or
representatives of regional business elites, emerged on the local political scenes as candidates. A
number of so-called ‘clone’ parties and candidates with names similar or identical to those of other
contestants entered mayoral and council races with the goal to dilute the votes.
The OSCE/ODIHR EOM received widespread allegations of vote-buying and observed candidates
distributing food packages to low-income voters directly or through charity organizations.  In
some areas In some instances fear and intimidation were mentioned as reasons for
candidates to withdraw, while some decided to contest mayoral races as non-partisan self-nominees
as a consequence of pressure.


ELECTION DAY

Despite overall positive assessment, some procedural problems were noted by observers

There's many other points concerning attempts by  Oligarch's to influence results.

 :coffeeread:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on November 26, 2015, 06:56:15 PM
Shock News: Western Media Suddenly Decides Russia is the Good Guy

When a propaganda channel like Fox News begins to make positive noises about Russia, we must wonder why the narrative has changed so fast and who is pulling the strings.

http://russia-insider.com/en/media-criticism/shock-news-western-media-suddenly-decides-russia-good-guy/ri11375

The conservative news media has been calling Obama weak for years so Putin's stunning display of strength and leadership was the example that they have been waiting for. It's not so much about love for Putin as it is about Obama getting his face slapped.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 28, 2015, 04:40:29 AM
If the Russian people in Donbass are issued Russian passports, would Russia be financially responsible? Could Russia afford the financial burden?


With Russian Passports, Citizens Of Donbass Can Be Free From The Kiev Junta Regime

http://novorossia.today/with-russian-passports-citizens-of-donbass-can-be-free-from-the-kiev-junta-regime/

This is just a part if the process of Ukraine divesting itself of this part of their territory.

Russia can probably afford to take on the region. The region was about the most profitable before Kiev started the civil war. There's agriculture, high grade coal with demand from rump Ukraine, there's industrial production that meets Russian needs.

But that is not what Russia wants to happen.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 04, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
Khodorkovsky alleges Putin is a secret Muslim.  :chuckle:

https://openrussia.org/post/view/11010/

Link in Russian, translated version here:

Quote
Investigation: Is a Muslim, Vladimir Putin?

 
Share
22

After two references to God in his address to the Federal Assembly, Vladimir Putin, has led many to think about their relationship to Islam. There were versions that Vladimir Vladimirovich has for some time is a Muslim. Few Russians have the opportunity to test the president of the presence of primary Islamic signs, namely, traces of circumcision. We'll have to use indirect information - data about the behavior in everyday life, everyday habits. It is known that Vladimir Putin is to avoid alcohol. Unfortunately, less is known about the use of their pork. Therefore it is a good indicator can not serve. But there is another indirect sign by which you can make in the pursuit of human norms of the Muslim religion. This is a perfect prayer, prayer five times daily - one of the pillars of Islam. Pray to be on schedule, which for each area of their own. Strict adherence to schedules prayers leads to many problems in daily life. And perhaps this explains the famous late. Consider the following examples. November 30, in Paris, at the international climate conference, Putin was late for half an hour. As a result, he came shortly before the break, which was announced in 13-45. See schedule of prayer for Paris and find that the noon prayer on that day - at 12:40. While prayer, going, drive - time has passed. In the same year happened to another famous late - a meeting with the Pope. Holy See on June 10, Putin waited more than an hour. Around 7 pm, reporters noted the belated arrival of the Russian president to the Vatican. Again, it all comes down - time late afternoon (the third day of prayer) was at 18:25 local time. Yesterday's message seemed to be knocked out of this rut. It began punctually at 12:00. Although the second prayer - 12:21. But here there is no contradiction. Here is what writes the distinguished theological site: "But being at the place of permanent residence and unable to timely perform the prayer, the believer can combine the second with the third and fourth with the fifth, although it has no right to cut fourfold prayer to two." The third prayer in That day it was 13:47. Having finished his speech at 13:00, Vladimir Putin could easily catch on his prayer mat. Of course, the information presented does not give absolute certainty in the matter of religion our president. Like everything else in his personal life, it's a mystery. Although much of what he did to Russia, can not be explained except as a jihad against the infidel people.

Of course, the unasked question: if it were so why would it matter?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 04, 2015, 10:55:22 AM
Well, as he claims to be Russian Orthodox is one reason.

But coming from Khodorkovsky, we can assume it has no credibility as it is based on speculation anyway.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 04, 2015, 11:59:48 AM
I can understand why he might choose that as an attack vector.

Putin has always had a terrible reputation for timekeeping and Khodorkovsky would know that at first hand. It was a constant feature of his time working in Saint Petersburg, and is still so to this day.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on December 09, 2015, 11:58:30 AM
When the United states was involved, you know things ain't gonna be for the better.

Donbass: a region nobody wants?

https://euobserver.com/investigations/131431

Tom Cat where in the article you linked to did you see any substantive mention of the United States? The article mentioned 'Russian-backed separatists' and Russia's involvement in the war with Ukraine and therefore of Donbass. What I didn't see was the mention of US control in Ukraine.

Are you now just making stuff up and linking it to any article even if said article doesn't support your comments?

Westy, did you have problems all through life with what goes on in the world?
Most people know who were the players involved in Ukraine, and would not question as you do.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 09, 2015, 01:23:38 PM
He's bored. He doesn't get meals on wheels any longer.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on December 09, 2015, 02:40:56 PM
When the United states was involved, you know things ain't gonna be for the better.

Donbass: a region nobody wants?

https://euobserver.com/investigations/131431

Tom Cat where in the article you linked to did you see any substantive mention of the United States? The article mentioned 'Russian-backed separatists' and Russia's involvement in the war with Ukraine and therefore of Donbass. What I didn't see was the mention of US control in Ukraine.

Are you now just making stuff up and linking it to any article even if said article doesn't support your comments?

Westy, did you have problems all through life with what goes on in the world?
Most people know who were the players involved in Ukraine, and would not question as you do.

Your own link is referring to "Russian-backed separatists" so it seems to be supporting my point of view that Russia is behind the problems in the Donbass.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on December 09, 2015, 06:37:21 PM
He's bored. He doesn't get meals on wheels any longer.

This from a man who admits he can't push himself away from the table till he's had 3 or 4 servings? Run Andy run.

Perhaps walk slowly Andy would be more appropriate.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on December 09, 2015, 10:06:50 PM
Most people know who were the players involved in Ukraine, and would not question as you do.

It seems unbelievable that someone can spend years on these forums and learn nothing... but it happens.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 09, 2015, 11:29:10 PM
He's bored. He doesn't get meals on wheels any longer.

This from a man who admits he can't push himself away from the table till he's had 3 or 4 servings? Run Andy run.

Perhaps walk slowly Andy would be more appropriate.  :laugh:

As you well know I have never made such a claim.  Perhaps you are thinking of somebody less distant from your LayZ Boy?

Tom I don't think that,  with the possible exception of a Canadian plumber and odd job man who posted his paen to failure here, I have ever come across a person so fully dedicated to the pursuit of lack of knowledge.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on December 23, 2015, 11:32:29 PM
A good article on Ukraine as long as you can overlook the irritating use of "the" before Ukraine throughout.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43793.htm

The writer, Dmitry Orlov, is using "the" as an insult to Ukrainians. He was born in Russia and he's a professional writer so he would obviously know the correct terminology.

He also states that Ukrainian is a made up language and that most of Ukraine's citizens are really ethnic Russians, both false. This shows he has no credibility as a writer at least on the topic of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 24, 2015, 03:25:05 AM
It isn't an insult to use 'the', the usage is a stylistic choice and is valid, even if some Ukrainians would prefer otherwise.

He is also right about the language or,  at the least, is making a justifiable point. A little knowledge of history would help you here Westcoast. You might want to learn something about languages and the 19th century nationalist movements in Europe. Ukrainian along with Finnish and Estonian were first formalised and created as written languages at this time. Up until then they had been informal argots. Language was used as a tool of identity and so these languages were created from their informal forbears in order to enable those who wanted to start identifying themselves as Ukrainian, Finnish or Estonian to differentiate themselves from Russians, Swedes etc. Even today Russian is the language used within the Ukraine when it is necessary for all participants in discussion to be understood.

So, Westcoast, perhaps in relation to Orlov's credibility you could tell us if he is slim or overweight? Or have you now chosen a different way to apportion credibility?

It is, we understand, hard for somebody who knows very little to ascertain credibility. An ongoing issue for you, as we know.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on December 24, 2015, 04:06:53 AM
It isn't an insult to use 'the', the usage is a stylistic choice and is valid, even if some Ukrainians would prefer otherwise.

He is also right about the language or,  at the least, is making a justifiable point. A little knowledge of history would help you here Westcoast. You might want to learn something about languages and the 19th century nationalist movements in Europe. Ukrainian along with Finnish and Estonian were first formalised and created as written languages at this time. Up until then they had been informal argots. Language was used as a tool of identity and so these languages were created from their informal forbears in order to enable those who wanted to start identifying themselves as Ukrainian, Finnish or Estonian to differentiate themselves from Russians, Swedes etc. Even today Russian is the language used within the Ukraine when it is necessary for all participants in discussion to be understood.

So, Westcoast, perhaps in relation to Orlov's credibility you could tell us if he is slim or overweight? Or have you now chosen a different way to apportion credibility?

It is, we understand, hard for somebody who knows very little to ascertain credibility. An ongoing issue for you, as we know.

Andrewfi proves - once - again that he is the one that needs to read up on the origins of languages - we had a thread on in here and how Ukrainian s much closer to other Slavic languages and Russian has changed more. Orlov is either being biased or daft ... I doubt the latter.

Russian is OF COURSE understood by more people in UA - It was - until 1991 - THE official language...  :chuckle:

The origin of people is hardly easy to prove, either way - as the Soviets / Imperial Russia had a policy to mix ethnicities up / Russify .. many colonialists were guilty of this.

 

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on December 24, 2015, 02:17:37 PM
It isn't an insult to use 'the', the usage is a stylistic choice and is valid, even if some Ukrainians would prefer otherwise.

Andy, must I correct you yet again? It's bad enough when I have to correct you on matters of finance and economics but when I have to correct you on matters regarding Ukrainian culture that have been long ago been formally adopted by the Ukrainian government that's just shameful.

You see Andy when Ukraine (notice the lack of "the") became independent the Ukrainian government formally announced that their country should no longer be referred to as the Ukraine but simply as Ukraine. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up, check it out here. (http://www.businessinsider.com/why-ukraine-isnt-the-ukraine-and-why-that-matters-now-2013-12) There are numerous other references available. This is really something you should have known.

He is also right about the language or,  at the least, is making a justifiable point. A little knowledge of history would help you here Westcoast. You might want to learn something about languages and the 19th century nationalist movements in Europe. Ukrainian along with Finnish and Estonian were first formalised and created as written languages at this time. Up until then they had been informal argots. Language was used as a tool of identity and so these languages were created from their informal forbears in order to enable those who wanted to start identifying themselves as Ukrainian, Finnish or Estonian to differentiate themselves from Russians, Swedes etc. Even today Russian is the language used within the Ukraine when it is necessary for all participants in discussion to be understood.

Andy, most languages develop over time from other languages as did the Ukrainian language. Did Russian emerge fully formed and without need of improvements or did it develop from other languages and change over time?

Of course Ukrainians want their own language separate from Russians as a national identity. Even in as important country as the US, people using British spellings of words are noted and corrected so it's hardly surprising that Ukrainians would want their own language separate from Russian.   


So, Westcoast, perhaps in relation to Orlov's credibility you could tell us if he is slim or overweight? Or have you now chosen a different way to apportion credibility?

Don't know how much Orlov weighs but I do know you're one thick bloke both physically and mentally, so my advice to you Andy is run Andy run. Running helps to clear the mind and aids in losing weight.
 

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 24, 2015, 05:00:26 PM
Even in as important country as the US, people using British spellings of words are noted and corrected

Don't be idiotic. English is from England. British English is the only correct version (hint - because it came from here); others are variants. Thus it is not possible to correct British English. One may remind a foreign user that another variant is more common locally, but correct? No.

I recall once being in the US, and with my accent, a woman said "Do you speak English?" I replied, "Love, I AM English". She was quite surprised to hear English spoken properly.

As you are not a native English speaker, I suppose its an easy mistake.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on December 24, 2015, 06:31:20 PM
Even in as important country as the US, people using British spellings of words are noted and corrected

Don't be idiotic. English is from England. British English is the only correct version (hint - because it came from here); others are variants. Thus it is not possible to correct British English. One may remind a foreign user that another variant is more common locally, but correct? No.

I recall once being in the US, and with my accent, a woman said "Do you speak English?" I replied, "Love, I AM English". She was quite surprised to hear English spoken properly.

As you are not a native English speaker, I suppose its an easy mistake.

Which version of English from England would be the correct version? I've been to England more times than I care to remember. My grandparents were English.

My grandmother said that when she first married my grandfather she understood little of what he and his brothers were saying when they were talking because they reverted to their local version of English, she grew up in London far away from her husband's hometown in the north of England.

What about a Scotsman's version of English? Scotland is part of Britain and their English can, at times, be almost unintelligible for many southerners.

Merry Christmas, Manny and to everyone at RUA, even Andy.  tiphat

Edit: Need some Christmas emoticons.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on December 25, 2015, 12:16:43 AM


Don't be idiotic. English is from England. British English is the only correct version (hint - because it came from here); others are variants. Thus it is not possible to correct British English. One may remind a foreign user that another variant is more common locally, but correct? No.

I recall once being in the US, and with my accent, a woman said "Do you speak English?" I replied, "Love, I AM English". She was quite surprised to hear English spoken properly.

As you are not a native English speaker, I suppose its an easy mistake.



Indeed, I remember my first time in USA - in California - having to hold my nose and attempting to sound like a local and  then the operator understood me  ??? :GRRRR: :o (:)

The English English are particularly snobby about pronunciation / spelling - but if Manny had studied at Eton or Harrow - he, too, would have had his 'English' [accent] questioned :chuckle:

English is a *snip*ised language in origin - a combination of previous invaders' lingos and while I used to think like Manny..... I figured out that the colonisation of other territories meant that English evolved... In the case  of US English, replacing traditional spelling with US phonetic style...easier to comprehend.

My English, was often marked down in a ENGLISH school as I spoke wrote in accepted 'N.Irish' English.....example.. ''What's the matter with you, man dear ?'' I had to adapt.


In the meantime, I have noticed US English has replaced many UK English terms in my lifetime and even British movies [ we called them films, before ]  make actors say words in N.American style..

I remember Phil Collins - Genesis and 'actor' using the word 'onanist', in the 80's - when this was rarely - if ever used on UK TV [Miami Vice] . He queried the use of the word in the script and was told, ''all you Brits say this word'' - they didn't have a clue what it meant  :chuckle:

Is it a subconscious decision by many UK and Irish singers to sound like N.Americans ?   (:)

How ANY one can complain about N.American English and like listening to some of the music Manny likes eludes me  :chuckle:

Here's a Manchester accent and an early taste of 'rap' - could that be a young Manny 1st left   :-X

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on December 31, 2015, 01:45:17 AM
Russia and Ukraine Finally Break Up

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-30/russia-and-ukraine-finally-break-up
This article has 'wishful' thinking in that Ukraine will get visa-free travel with EU in 2016.

Even if they are correct, how do they know this? Most countries in Europe do not want visa-free travel with Ukraine, Netherlands is even holding a public-forced referendum because they do -not- want this deal. A majority of our 2nd chamber already said they will honor the outcome of the -non-binding- referendum. Meaning it has become a true binding referendum.

Mark.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on January 02, 2016, 01:32:02 PM
This article does raise some good questions. Would be Interesting to hear from the pro Russian side.

2015 THE YEAR IN REVIEW

Why Russia Spent 2015 Half-Assing It in Ukraine

https://news.vice.com/article/why-russia-spent-2015-half-assing-it-in-ukraine1
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on January 02, 2016, 03:17:30 PM
This article does raise some good questions. Would be Interesting to hear from the pro Russian side.

2015 THE YEAR IN REVIEW

Why Russia Spent 2015 Half-Assing It in Ukraine

https://news.vice.com/article/why-russia-spent-2015-half-assing-it-in-ukraine1

It's an interesting article and it raises several good points. IMHO Putin wants to keep Ukraine in a state of civil war so Ukraine can't join NATO and is unable to join the EU however that doesn't answer the question of why Putin hasn't taken the needed territory to open a land bridge between Russia and Crimea.

Even if Putin took the needed territory for a land bridge between Russia and Crimea he could still keep Ukraine in a state of civil war. The best reason I can think of is the cost that Russia would be required to spend in the newly acquired territories.

Russia is broke and any reasonable projections of future expenditures for rebuilding areas for the land bridge between Russia and Crimea would involve sums of monies in the tens of billions of USD. That is monies that Russia simply does not have and is not likely to have over the next few years.

So Putin simple keeps the current status quo. Blames Ukraine for lack of progress in peace talks and leaves the costs for the regions at war with the Ukraine government. Putin gets his wish that Ukraine can't join NATO and won't be able with Ukraine in its current state. Ukraine's wish to join the EU may progress slowly but Ukraine is not likely to be able to become a full EU member any time soon.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 03, 2016, 07:23:56 AM
This article does raise some good questions. Would be Interesting to hear from the pro Russian side.

2015 THE YEAR IN REVIEW

Why Russia Spent 2015 Half-Assing It in Ukraine

https://news.vice.com/article/why-russia-spent-2015-half-assing-it-in-ukraine1

The writer assumes there is a war; that some kind of invasion took place. What we saw was a response to the usual US led destabilisation and regime change. Had Russia wanted a war there would have been one. Had Russia wanted to occupy Ukraine, it would have done so. Allowing Crimea to reunify was of course a no brainer long debated here.

The writers questions might be more correctly aimed at how can Russia distance itself from a sticky situation on its borders that it never asked for? To that question, the article isnt a million miles away.

Quote
The Russians probably look at Ukraine as not being worth the extra headache of defeating outright, because it would require making a serious military commitment and probably earn Russia a nasty insurgency problem. But if the Russians outlast the Ukrainians (which they almost certainly can do) and simply wait for Ukraine to cry uncle, then it makes all the relevant political points, domestically and internationally, far more persuasively than a pure smash-and-grab would.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 03, 2016, 09:05:43 AM

The writer assumes there is a war; that some kind of invasion took place.

Of course, the fairies are firing at each other.. :coffeeread: The nation is called Ukraine - it is a separate entity to Russia - but ANY one who has been there knows that crossing from Donbas to Russia is not like entering Russia - normally - as Kremlin backed operatives formed a new 'border' within Ukraine...

What we saw was a response to the usual US led destabilisation and regime change.

 ...and the 'fairies' who ran Ukraine before made off with their loot to where  ?... :coffeeread:

What we saw was the popular - overall  - removal of Yanu' from office - you never can offer a valid riposte to the FACT that he was expelled by his OWN party....

Had Russia wanted a war there would have been one. Had Russia wanted to occupy Ukraine, it would have done so. Allowing Crimea to reunify was of course a no brainer long debated here.

I stopped wondering at you inability to check what you post for howlers - long ago - but this beats all...

1/ There was and is a war...

2/ Ukraine - part of it is occupied

3/ A reminder of the insular 'support' out side of Russia - which is not good for the nation - was the REAL vote at the UN - regarding the manner of occupation of Crimea and the on-going, un-reported problems the indigenous population experience


You can try and deny it, but if the BBC tried to make a documentary about this - you can guarantee there'd be a reason for exclusion, but it is OK with me for ReTweet to report on the issues faced by minorities in the UK.. :coffeeread:


The writers questions might be more correctly aimed at how can Russia distance itself from a sticky situation on its borders that it never asked for? To that question, the article isnt a million miles away.

Quote
The Russians probably look at Ukraine as not being worth the extra headache of defeating outright, because it would require making a serious military commitment and probably earn Russia a nasty insurgency problem.

You confuse what the Kremlin needed v what most Russians / Ukrainians want...normality

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 03, 2016, 03:07:12 PM
2/ Ukraine - part of it is occupied

No, several bits of it broke away. What is left of Ukraine is not occupied; unless you count America who is actually running it. Badly.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 04, 2016, 02:37:26 AM


No, several bits of it broke away. What is left of Ukraine is not occupied; unless you count America who is actually running it. Badly.

Remind us, again, what happens if parts of the RF try to break away ..... :coffeeread:

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 05, 2016, 05:43:02 PM


No, several bits of it broke away. What is left of Ukraine is not occupied; unless you count America who is actually running it. Badly.

Remind us, again, what happens if parts of the RF try to break away ..... :coffeeread:

But they generally don't, do they?  :-\
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 06, 2016, 08:00:53 AM

Remind us, again, what happens if parts of the RF try to break away ..... :coffeeread:

But they generally don't, do they?  :-\

But, WHEN they try .. what happens... ?  :coffeeread:

Then, 'excuse me' when I wonder at the 'selective' use of the term terrorist .
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2016, 08:16:22 AM
OPINION

PUTIN MOVES TO DIRECT RULE IN THE DONBASS

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-moves-direct-rule-donbas-412411

It is rare to see such a bunch of codswallop in one article!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on January 08, 2016, 09:36:01 AM
OPINION

PUTIN MOVES TO DIRECT RULE IN THE DONBASS

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-moves-direct-rule-donbas-412411

Sounds like Russia has totally annexed the Donbass. Might as well refer to it as part of Russia, just like Crimea. I'll bet Putin is really upset that he hasn't been able to complete his plans for a land bridge to Crimea and a corridor to Moldova.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Steveboy on January 08, 2016, 11:34:05 AM
OPINION

PUTIN MOVES TO DIRECT RULE IN THE DONBASS

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-moves-direct-rule-donbas-412411

Sounds like Russia has totally annexed the Donbass. Might as well refer to it as part of Russia, just like Crimea. I'll bet Putin is really upset that he hasn't been able to complete his plans for a land bridge to Crimea and a corridor to Moldova.

A "corridor to Moldova" ? What is that about then?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2016, 12:01:35 PM
For those who don't know what is happening (that's anyone who believed the balderdash in the article on the Newsweek site), the lead negotiator has been changed. It was formerly the Russian ambassador to Ukraine, now it is another Russian bureaucrat.

Problem is that the Ukrainian ambassador does not cut a very impressive figure in his role in Kiev. Of course, until recently that task was something of a sinecure. The fellow is not really up to carrying out his current job, hence the re-shuffle.

For those at a loss here, thing about this:
How does changing the Russian representative for a series of meetings which Ukraine studiously ignores and takes no part in mean that Russia has decided to take over running the LPR/DPR?

And for those who wonder how it is the Ukraine takes no part in the meetings, it is worth noting that the 'contact person' for the Kievan regime is former president of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma who has no official connection to the regime at all - the reason he was chosen. He can agree nothing, make no undertakings, all he does is turn up and fly away.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on January 08, 2016, 02:33:59 PM
OPINION

PUTIN MOVES TO DIRECT RULE IN THE DONBASS

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-moves-direct-rule-donbas-412411

Sounds like Russia has totally annexed the Donbass. Might as well refer to it as part of Russia, just like Crimea. I'll bet Putin is really upset that he hasn't been able to complete his plans for a land bridge to Crimea and a corridor to Moldova.

A "corridor to Moldova" ? What is that about then?

Steveboy, Russian back separatists control a portion of Moldova bordering Ukraine. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) The area these separatists control is landlocked and the only way Russia can get supplies and manpower in and out is by air. That's not nearly as efficient as a land route.

Ideally, Russia would like to have a land bridge to Crimea and then seize the southern coast of Ukraine to Moldova as a corridor from Russia to Moldova. This would accomplish multiple purposes.

It would give Russia the land corridor to Moldova. It would protect Crimea's northern territory from attack by Ukraine and others who might use Ukraine to attack Crimea. Perhaps most financially rewarding it would give Russia a greater claim to oil, natural gas and mineral rights off the coast of Ukraine. Plus it would land lock Ukraine. All wins for Putin.

This has been talked about ever since before the war began. Take a look at a popular interpretation of Novorossiya. There are other versions but this is a common version.

(http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Republic-of-Novorossiya.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 08, 2016, 04:24:43 PM
[My opinion] In time, the land bridge will be in place by popular vote. Rome wasn't built in a day....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 08, 2016, 04:52:57 PM
I really don't think that a 'land bridge' is part of the RF's foreign policy thinking.

BUT I do think that the contingency has been gamed through and planned for. There will be a whole raft of plans for different contingencies that end up with such an outcome.

Russia has no need for Ukrainian territory, there's no economic, social or political profit to be had. That's why the Russian government has been so strongly behind Ukraine remaining a unitary state.

My guess is that 'Novorossiya' will only come about if Ukraine fails and Poland puts its contingency plans to reclaim former Polish territory into play, thus Russia might make a reactionary move if the population of the region come under significant threat (that means greater than in the LPR/DPR, so very significant!) The cost of assimilating and protecting such a territory would bleed Russia to a much greater degree than the assimilation of East Germany did West Germany.

At this time Russian forces move through Chisinau to Transnistra. The Russian 14th Army personnel are unlikely to move in this fashion, unless they have papers that show them to be part of the peacekeeping force. Exports from the region travel through Moldova and Ukraine using Moldovan issued documentation.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 12, 2016, 09:59:33 AM
SOLVED: Opposition Shot Victims on Kiev's Maidan

http://russia-insider.com/en/snipers-massacre-exposes-real-plan-behind-eu-ukraine-association-agreement/ri12155

Something close to the truth was bound to leak out eventually to the western media. None of this stuff is new, bar some details. It will probably take years, if ever, before the general population get the hang of the idea that the massacre was conceived, planned and directed by the coup leaders and their handlers further west.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 12, 2016, 12:29:10 PM
For those who don't know what is happening (that's anyone who believed the balderdash in the article on the Newsweek site), the lead negotiator has been changed. It was formerly the Russian ambassador to Ukraine, now it is another Russian bureaucrat.

Problem is that the Ukrainian ambassador does not cut a very impressive figure in his role in Kiev. Of course, until recently that task was something of a sinecure. The fellow is not really up to carrying out his current job, hence the re-shuffle.

For those at a loss here, thing about this:
How does changing the Russian representative for a series of meetings which Ukraine studiously ignores and takes no part in mean that Russia has decided to take over running the LPR/DPR?

And for those who wonder how it is the Ukraine takes no part in the meetings, it is worth noting that the 'contact person' for the Kievan regime is former president of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma who has no official connection to the regime at all - the reason he was chosen. He can agree nothing, make no undertakings, all he does is turn up and fly away.

You'll note this is the andrewfi version of 'reality'..baseless in fact

Kuchma was chosen as a long standing recognised figure in UA politics - someone that - remarkably - has some respect from most UA viewpoints

That the Kremlin is having to pay for a mess of it's creation - is unfortunate..but did London send money to occupied Jersey or Guernsey during ww2..let's put this is perspective.

Andrewfi's perspective is blinkered, one-sided and should be treated as propaganda


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 14, 2016, 03:04:41 PM
Gotta wonder if Poroshenko actually believes what he says?

Ukraine's Poroshenko seeks EU, US help to get Crimea back

http://news.yahoo.com/poroshenko-wants-help-crimea-back-140750897.html

Poor Porky, he is still banging that Crimea drum at the behest of his Washington masters. He must feel a right plank trotting out that old fantasy when he reads McCain's emails of what he will say next.....  :chuckle:

That is almost as aged as "Russia poised to invade the Baltics" that the US media still recycle once a month.  :-\
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 14, 2016, 03:43:31 PM
moby, here's a thing for you to try:

Post links to three credible, verifiable, Russian sourced articles in which the current Russian ambassador to Ukraine is referred to in glowing positive terms, in that role. Don't worry about the language, Russian will do fine.

moby, here's a thing, those of us who are honest don't need to mess about, jump through hoops, try to divine new meanings for old words. We certainly do not need to act as you do.

Now though, I am giving you a chance to prove yourself, show us that you actually know something, that you can be honest.

I know that you can't do this for two reasons:
Firstly, you are inherently dishonest, dishonesty is always your first choice in all interactions. Telling the truth is a measure you employ only in extremis, when all else has failed.

Secondly, you will not be able to support the idea that the replacement of Russia's lead negotiator is due to anything other than the previous incumbent's lack of skill because the guy is lacking in skill.

But go on, give it a whirl, links to three credible articles, from Russia, praising the current ambassador to Ukraine for his skills in that role. Show us what you're made of.  :dh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 14, 2016, 08:17:05 PM

That is almost as aged as "Russia poised to invade the Baltics" that the US media still recycle once a month.  :-\

Then WHY the need to run documentary features on the Russian 2100 news- recently-  that the Prosecutor General's Office that the Baltic Republics' secession from the USSR may have been 'illegal'  ?  :'(


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 14, 2016, 08:30:16 PM
moby, here's a thing for you to try:

Post links to three credible, verifiable, Russian sourced articles in which the current Russian ambassador to Ukraine is referred to in glowing positive terms, in that role. Don't worry about the language, Russian will do fine.


Dear Andrew, IF you ever paid attention - I pointed how you 'misunderstood' the choice of Kuchma - the First Ukrainian president as their representative..

Your 'response' ..your want me to discuss the Russian representative ?  :laugh:

moby, here's a thing, those of us who are honest don't need to mess about, jump through hoops, try to divine new meanings for old words. We certainly do not need to act as you do.

Now though, I am giving you a chance to prove yourself, show us that you actually know something, that you can be honest.

I know that you can't do this for two reasons:
Firstly, you are inherently dishonest, dishonesty is always your first choice in all interactions. Telling the truth is a measure you employ only in extremis, when all else has failed.

Secondly, you will not be able to support the idea that the replacement of Russia's lead negotiator is due to anything other than the previous incumbent's lack of skill because the guy is lacking in skill.

But go on, give it a whirl, links to three credible articles, from Russia, praising the current ambassador to Ukraine for his skills in that role. Show us what you're made of.  :dh:

A lot of words - but not ONE response re Kuchma ... on which I picked you up ..

Sadly, for you - I have lots of time - on the beach - to do your 'homework'  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 15, 2016, 07:23:06 PM


Post links to three credible, verifiable, Russian sourced articles in which the current Russian ambassador to Ukraine is referred to in glowing positive terms, in that role. Don't worry about the language, Russian will do fine.

How, 'interesting' - you forgot to get back to us about Kuchma, but expect me to respond re the Russian delegates. As I'm not in Russia, am I supposed to  imagine you refer to Mikhail Zurabov being replaced by Azamat Kulmuhametov  ? ..Unless he's gone, already..

PS The Russian UA  ambassador is said to have been replaced as the negotiator as he was not hard enough ... he knew Poroshenko a long time before and the original ploy was to - hopefully use this personal relationship.

Did you know that the origin plan for the negotiator was Vladimir Lukin ?

BTW my sources aren't Russian.. per se although they were both born there..they live in Thailand.. You could even read about it in English

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/05/01/why-putin-changed-his-donbas-negotiator/#arvlbdata (http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/05/01/why-putin-changed-his-donbas-negotiator/#arvlbdata)



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on January 19, 2016, 06:52:40 PM
There were many war crimes committed by both sides.
But it's doubtful anyone will be convicted.

Former separatist leader brags of executions, challenges Hague court

http://www.Kievpost.com/article/content/Kiev-post-plus/former-separatist-leader-brags-of-executions-challenges-hague-court-406227.html

Igor Girkin aka Igor Strelkov may be right, he'll probably never see the Hague. As has been reported on RUA a number of the rebel commanders have been killed under mysterious circumstances. As Strelkov is now in Russia he could easily disappear from public view, have an accident or mysteriously be sentenced to a long prison term. I'm betting on an unexplained traffic accident.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 21, 2016, 02:44:12 PM
Ukraine might not have a say in how this will be resolved.

Russia Pushing for An Endgame in Ukraine

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russia-pushing-for-an-endgame-in-ukraine/556437.html

Article pulled already.........
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Gipsy on January 21, 2016, 02:49:13 PM
Ukraine might not have a say in how this will be resolved.

Russia Pushing for An Endgame in Ukraine

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russia-pushing-for-an-endgame-in-ukraine/556437.html

Article pulled already.........

Here

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-pushing-for-an-endgame-in-ukraine/556437.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on January 21, 2016, 04:08:18 PM
Ukraine might not have a say in how this will be resolved.

Russia Pushing for An Endgame in Ukraine

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russia-pushing-for-an-endgame-in-ukraine/556437.html

Article pulled already.........

Here

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-pushing-for-an-endgame-in-ukraine/556437.html

Interesting stuff, thanks.  tiphat
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 21, 2016, 06:15:50 PM
Where is andrewfi and his response re Russians latest replacement in the Minsk negotiations  ?

Boris Gryzlov is now the latest negotiator - they keep getting replaced..
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on January 21, 2016, 10:52:00 PM
It's looking like Putin's military in Syria has made NATO rethink their Russian policy.

Sources: NATO Considers First Formal Talks With Russia Since 2014

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/01/20/sources-nato-considers-first-formal-talks-russia-since/79092044/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on January 28, 2016, 04:01:57 PM
More and More Ukrainians Waking Up from Maidan-Induced Stupor

http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-not-all-lost-common-sense/ri12450

I just posted this to show you the quality of some of your sources. This is from the same people that wrote the article above.

http://russia-insider.com/en/putin-secretly-alien-us-official-reveals/ri12493
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on January 28, 2016, 05:08:57 PM
More and More Ukrainians Waking Up from Maidan-Induced Stupor

http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-not-all-lost-common-sense/ri12450

I just posted this to show you the quality of some of your sources. This is from the same people that wrote the article above.

http://russia-insider.com/en/putin-secretly-alien-us-official-reveals/ri12493

Texan77,  do you hear noise above your head quite frequently?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on January 28, 2016, 09:45:48 PM


Texan77,  do you hear noise above your head quite frequently?

Unlike, you TC - whilst he may / may not hear noises in his head ... possibly due to reading spin on here -quoting from from 'useful idiots' .. I think he might know the meaning of the expression ''tongue in cheek'', better than you  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on January 28, 2016, 10:40:37 PM
Texan77, sorry but you are wrong,  again. The two articles were written by different people and published in two completely different places.

What confused you was that you saw them both on a site that syndicates articles from a very broad spectrum of sources.

What confused you further was that you were incapable of recognising satire when it came along and punched you in the face!

Do you understand that there's a difference between writing an article and syndicating it?
Do you understand that there's good reasons for a publisher of articles to provide a broad spectrum of ideas on the general theme of the site?
Do you understand that there's a difference between objective analysis and satire?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 01, 2016, 09:19:32 AM
Don't know how much of this to believe, but I don't see how Ukraine is in any position to get involved in Syria.

Ukraine plans to join fight against Isis means troops could come up against Russian forces in Syria

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-plans-to-join-fight-against-isis-means-troops-could-come-up-against-russian-forces-in-syria-a6845336.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 01, 2016, 11:11:52 AM


News of Ukraine army operation in Syria debunked as fake

http://uatoday.tv/politics/news-of-ukraine-army-operation-in-syria-debunked-as-fake-582545.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on February 01, 2016, 11:20:44 AM


News of Ukraine army operation in Syria debunked as fake

http://uatoday.tv/politics/news-of-ukraine-army-operation-in-syria-debunked-as-fake-582545.html

Nice catch.

British media busted making stuff up again!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on February 01, 2016, 12:51:45 PM


News of Ukraine army operation in Syria debunked as fake

http://uatoday.tv/politics/news-of-ukraine-army-operation-in-syria-debunked-as-fake-582545.html

Nice catch.

British media busted making stuff up again!

The Independent owned and run by Alexander Yevgenievich Lebedev, a Russian oligarch. Now the only question is was he following Putin's orders or was he trying to piss Putin off?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 01, 2016, 01:24:27 PM
Here's another article on the same subject.

Ukraine Finds a Russian Conspiracy at UK's 'The Independent'

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraine-finds-russian-conspiracy-uks-independent/ri12576
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 08, 2016, 10:22:25 AM
The guy served 2 years in jail for desertion, goes to fight with the DPR, and now facing 15 years again. He would have been better off to have stayed in the Russian army.
This is one Russian who will have an extended vacation in Ukraine. :chuckle:

The trial of a Russian citizen charged with "participation in an aggressive war in the Donbass" began in Ukraine on Friday, the Mediazona news website reported Monday.Andrei Langer, 34, is also charged with illegal weapon possession and joining a terrorist organization.He faces up to 15 years in jail if convicted, according to Ukrainian prosecutor Ruslan Kravchenko.Langer joined the army of the so-called Donetsk Peoples' Republic as a volunteer in July 2015 after he was released from jail, where he had served two years for desertion from the Russian army

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russian-citizen-on-trial-in-ukraine-for-participating-in-donbass-war/559022.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on February 08, 2016, 11:26:52 PM



Nice catch.

British media busted making stuff up again!
,


The Independent owned and run by Alexander Yevgenievich Lebedev, a Russian oligarch. Now the only question is was he following Putin's orders or was he trying to piss Putin off?

 :thumbsup:

Now IF Manny is really interested to spot made up stuff .. I commend http://tinyurl.com/h826b27 (http://tinyurl.com/h826b27)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 10, 2016, 10:29:50 AM


Donetsk Blog Feb 9: Shelling - Equipment Moving to Front - Kiev Non-Combat Losses

http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-feb-9-shelling-continue-kiev-equipment-massing-heavy-ukrainian-non-combat-losses
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on February 11, 2016, 02:31:00 AM


Donetsk Blog Feb 9: Shelling - Equipment Moving to Front - Kiev Non-Combat Losses

http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-feb-9-shelling-continue-kiev-equipment-massing-heavy-ukrainian-non-combat-losses

Quote
Kiev keeps moving equipment and personnel to the front. According to DPR intelligence, this included 3 motorised artillery systems, 2 armoured personnel carriers and 7 vehicles with the personnel and ammunition (photos and description of this equipment at end of article).


DPR intelligence claims that the Ukrainian army is incurring heavy non-combat losses caused by conflicts between the military and nationalist volunteer battalions, as well as awful living conditions, diseases and careless handling of weapons and heating devices. In the field, the Ukrainian military has to use open flame for cooking and heating, which results in numerous fires.

During the weekend 11 Ukrainian soldiers died of carbon monoxide poisoning and another 27 were brought to military hospitals with skin burns.

Dear god, next time, they may want to send some women along, who know how to cook and use a stove!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Anteros on February 11, 2016, 02:43:57 AM


Donetsk Blog Feb 9: Shelling - Equipment Moving to Front - Kiev Non-Combat Losses

http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-feb-9-shelling-continue-kiev-equipment-massing-heavy-ukrainian-non-combat-losses

Quote
Kiev keeps moving equipment and personnel to the front. According to DPR intelligence, this included 3 motorised artillery systems, 2 armoured personnel carriers and 7 vehicles with the personnel and ammunition (photos and description of this equipment at end of article).


DPR intelligence claims that the Ukrainian army is incurring heavy non-combat losses caused by conflicts between the military and nationalist volunteer battalions, as well as awful living conditions, diseases and careless handling of weapons and heating devices. In the field, the Ukrainian military has to use open flame for cooking and heating, which results in numerous fires.

During the weekend 11 Ukrainian soldiers died of carbon monoxide poisoning and another 27 were brought to military hospitals with skin burns.

Dear god, next time, they may want to send some women along, who know how to cook and use a stove!

That is truly sad and pathetic.  Usually the best military cooks are men.  However they clearly need to do something to protect the lives of these soldiers.  It's bad enough if they die from gunfire.  Much worse if they die from the negligence of their own military support structure.

When I was in the military they really drilled it into our heads that an Army must be properly clothed and fed, and that for every 1 combat soldier there should always be 4 soldiers supporting that 1 on the front.

Ukraine has truly failed their own soldiers in many ways with this sort of incompetence.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 12, 2016, 09:17:44 AM
'White Book of crimes’: Report on war crimes by pro-Kiev forces in Donbass released in English

https://www.rt.com/news/332047-war-crimes-ukraine-book/

To clarify, the report is compiled by Russia in respect of war crimes committed by Kievan forces, yes?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 12, 2016, 09:38:03 AM
To clarify, the report is compiled by Russia in respect of war crimes committed by Kievan forces, yes?

That's correct, the article says the report will soon be available on the official website.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on February 23, 2016, 01:28:57 PM
There's a link in the article, in Russian that might be more accurate, haven't read it yet.

Why Russia Stopped at Crimea

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-02-22/why-russia-stopped-at-crimea
Another 5 minutes of my life spoiled by reading that idiot. I should've checked the author before reading it.

In short: As long as the militia remained unidentified, the right thing to do would have been to attack AND ask Russia for help.

Then Russia couldn't have said: but but but they're ours, because that would've meant NATO direct support for Ukraine had they asked.

Then the Budapest memorandum would have been in effect as promised.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Gipsy on March 02, 2016, 03:01:01 AM

Hadn't seen this before, in 2013, the coup was already coming and this guy claimed he had proof.

He also tried to run for president but personal attacks made him also flee to Russia. (house burned down, beaten to an inch of his life, etc.).

Nobody wanted to listen to what he was saying, because they were already in the "Plan"...

Its a disgrace, and just goes to prove that the US are war mongers and criminals..
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on March 02, 2016, 06:58:53 AM
Ukraine's Tymoshenko Makes Her Play: Calls for New Elections, Americans Be Damned

Soon Tymoshenko may be causing Victoria Nuland sleepless nights.

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-tymoshenko-makes-her-play-calls-new-elections-americans-be-damned/ri13126

Actually I think this is going to be very good for America just not what Obama wanted. Guys Obama is not good for USA. I would think Europe will be up set because no agreement is about to be completed.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on March 03, 2016, 12:32:58 AM


In short: As long as the militia remained unidentified, the right thing to do would have been to attack AND ask Russia for help.

Rubbish, who the 'eck had the resources on the peninsula to pull such a stunt .. using Russian forces vehicles..  ?

I think I have spend more than five minutes, countering your 'mantra' about the 'non invasion, peaceful' take-over' of Crimea.

The article is bang on ..

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on March 09, 2016, 12:29:41 PM
Russian 'Former Fascist' Who Fought With Separatists Says Moscow Unleashed, Orchestrated Ukraine War

http://www.rferl.mobi/a/ukraine-russia-neo-nazi-fought-with-separatists-says-kremlin-behind-war/27598825.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on March 09, 2016, 01:09:42 PM


In short: As long as the militia remained unidentified, the right thing to do would have been to attack AND ask Russia for help.

Rubbish, who the 'eck had the resources on the peninsula to pull such a stunt .. using Russian forces vehicles..  ?

I think I have spend more than five minutes, countering your 'mantra' about the 'non invasion, peaceful' take-over' of Crimea.

The article is bang on ..

don quichote would be proud of you. who had the resources? at least 4 parties. do your own homework as to identify them
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 20, 2016, 09:48:18 PM
French Government Blames Kiev for Sabotaging Peace in Donbass

The French are now laying the blame on Kiev for failure to implement the Minsk peace agreement

http://russia-insider.com/en/french-fm-ayrault-blames-kiev-sabotaging-peace-donbass/ri14001

There is no way the Ukraine will ever be able to implement this agreement. It was flawed from the beginning and though LPR and DPR on the surface seem to be doing their part, Russia is not doing their part neither. I am thinking about next year Europe and the US will stop sending Kiev money and the government will fall apart.

The two parts of the country that were is strongest economic areas are already gone probably that most likely the next area to leave will be western Ukraine with most of the gas wells. Vast areas of the Ukraine have farming land will likely still have some economy but the cities in what is left of eastern Ukraine look pretty hopeless. NO tourist, no industry, and no natural resources. This area was never developed to be a stand alone country. I think no one is going to want to support this area for much longer.

The Ukraine went back to an old constitution after maiden which took much of the power away from the president. He can not keep promises because he does not have that power. Everyone knew this when they made him sign Minsk 2 and knew it would never get through parliament. This is just a bunch more of smoke and mirrors and another way to blame the Ukraine people for that which was impossible. This is basically a country run by parliament which you have to get a huge majority to change the constitution to be able to comply with Minsk 2. The constitution is nearly impossible to change and everyone knew this when Minsk 2 was signed.  So Kiev will never be able to comply. No one wants to talk about a Minsk 3 agreement that maybe could get passed because I do not think Russia ever wanted this agreement to pass and was hoping that what is happening would happen.

The DPR and LPR are effectively part of Russia now in every way except name. In the Minsk 2 agreement Russia was suppose to have nothing to do with the LPR and DPR as these areas were suppose to be part of the Ukraine. Russia was suppose to return the border back to the Ukraine which never happened.

At this point I think the French just want a reason to stop sending money for what they see as a never ending mess. Since on one wants to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine that maybe the only choice.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 11, 2016, 03:48:57 PM


Public Opinon in ex-USSR Lined up With Moscow on Crimea, Ukraine

http://russia-insider.com/en/public-opinon-ex-ussr-lined-moscow-crimea-donbass/ri14288
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on May 12, 2016, 03:45:42 AM
Texan77, quick fact check.

What, under the terms of the Minsk 2 agreement, are Russia's responsibilities? What exactly are they supposed to accomplish?

I am interested to know and to learn, so please help me.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on May 12, 2016, 07:41:32 AM
Texan77 and others. it isn't just blokes like me who know that Russia is not 'guilty' of non-implementation of non-existent clauses of the Minsk agreement.

I came upon this the other day:
Quote
Pierre Lellouche: ...Même les plus fidèles soutiens de l'Ukraine indépendante, dont je suis depuis le début de la révolution orange, doivent reconnaître aujourd'hui que le processus de Minsk est bloqué, non pas à cause de la Russie mais du fait de l'incapacité d'une classe politique ukrainienne totalement divisée et corrompue à appliquer l'accord, et en particulier à voter les textes sur la décentralisation nécessaire au règlement de la question du Donbass. En clair, nous sommes devenus les otages de notre propre embargo. Tant qu'il dure, les dirigeants ukrainiens n'ont aucun intérêt à adopter les décisions difficiles qu'ils se sont pourtant engagés à prendre. …
ORIGINAL (http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/cri/2015-2016/20160176.asp#P770118)

For those who don't read French, a Deputy (MP) in the French parliament said this in a debate on the subject of sanctions against Russia the other day:
Quote
Pierre Lellouche: ...Even the most loyal supporters of independent Ukraine, which I am since the start of the Orange Revolution, must recognize today that the Minsk process is blocked, not because of Russia but due to the inability a Ukrainian political class completely divided and corrupt to implement the agreement, and in particular to vote the texts on decentralization required to settle the question of Donbass. in short, we have become hostages of our own embargo. While it lasts, Ukrainian leaders have no incentive to take the difficult decisions they are nevertheless committed to take...

But Texan77, if you know better than Mr Lellouche, please inform us so that we may update his cognitive deficit. ;)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 26, 2016, 11:24:24 AM
The West Looks on as Corruption and Bigotry Rule in the 'New Ukraine'

http://russia-insider.com/en/west-looks-corruption-and-bigotry-rule-new-ukraine/ri16658

Is this RI and you deflecting from the far more serious situation in Syria ?

Corruption was and is rife in the regions controlled by the rebels - lets not kid ourselves...

The mods kindly moved my reply to the correct topic.......
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 26, 2016, 02:21:58 PM
The West Looks on as Corruption and Bigotry Rule in the 'New Ukraine'

http://russia-insider.com/en/west-looks-corruption-and-bigotry-rule-new-ukraine/ri16658

Is this RI and you deflecting from the far more serious situation in Syria ?

Corruption was and is rife in the regions controlled by the rebels - lets not kid ourselves...

The mods kindly moved my reply to the correct topic.......
i am only missing grozny from my sept. Bingo lingo. Kindly mention it before friday in an offtopic fashion or it wont count
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 27, 2016, 01:05:17 AM


The mods kindly moved my reply to the correct topic.......

 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 27, 2016, 01:42:20 AM


Kiev, Donetsk, Lugansk -- Which Governs Best?

http://russia-insider.com/en/kiev-donetsk-lugansk-which-governs-best/ri16656

from the article:
Quote
Donetsk
The streets are quiet, cozy, and clean: the locals say the city has never been so well-kept, not even before the war. … The main boulevard is packed with glamorous coffee shops. … A private entrepreneur named Roman … says that some residents have even regained their cars, which were seized two years ago. ‘The courts are overloaded with cases, but rulings are being made and implemented,’
If true, that is promising for the locals there.

Mark.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on September 29, 2016, 09:12:07 PM
Would seem some are living quite well in Eastern Ukraine.

Luxury thrives amid misery in Ukraine's war-torn east

http://m.france24.com/en/20160929-luxury-thrives-amid-misery-ukraines-war-torn-east
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on October 04, 2016, 06:34:25 PM
The wicked witch of the west is taking her broom to Moscow. If you read the comments following this article you can see how much she is loved and respected.   :chuckle:

Victoria Nuland Heading to Moscow for Ukraine Talks on Oct 5th

Everybody's favorite diplomat will arrive in Moscow tonighthttp://russia-insider.com/en/politics/us-assistant-secretary-nuland-arrive-moscow-late-oct-4/ri16803
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on October 05, 2016, 09:36:41 AM
The wicked witch of the west is taking her broom to Moscow. If you read the comments following this article you can see how much she is loved and respected.   :chuckle:

Victoria Nuland Heading to Moscow for Ukraine Talks on Oct 5th

Everybody's favorite diplomat will arrive in Moscow tonighthttp://russia-insider.com/en/politics/us-assistant-secretary-nuland-arrive-moscow-late-oct-4/ri16803

My guess someone is going to dump some water on the Wicked Witch of the West.

Perhaps Tom Cat can refresh our memory of this wonderful moment via YouTube.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on October 22, 2016, 11:44:03 AM
Sporadic fighting continues in eastern Ukraine, but seems little attention from the media is given. I guess there's more people being killed and wounded in Chicago, which is only one city in the United states.
Funny how the U.S.government condemns the events taking place in other countries, yet does little to curb the domestic violence.


Grad is back in conflict zone (update)

http://uatoday.tv/news/grad-is-back-in-conflict-zone-791024.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dcguyusa on November 03, 2016, 04:48:06 PM
Quote
Attached to one an email, allegedly sent by the separatist leader Denis Pushilin in January of this year, is a map of Ukraine carved up into three regions. The eastern part is marked as "Novorossiya" (New Russia). The central region is labelled "Malorossiya" (Lesser Russia).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37857658
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 04, 2016, 02:13:09 AM
Do people still not know about these old terms used to describe parts of Ukraine? CLICK HERE! (http://back.ly/dzdg)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on November 07, 2016, 03:13:10 PM
Crashing Down: Saakashvili Resigns as Governor of Odessa. Washington Has Lost Control

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/saakashvili-resigns-governor-odessa-get-ready-another-kiev-coup/ri17440

Excellent news!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on November 08, 2016, 11:37:20 AM


Excellent news!  :thumbsup:

'excellent news' for who ?

Those seeking continued instability for Ukraine unless she accepts she has been 'naughty' to dare to try to break free of Moscow ?

It is noted that the RI blogger forgot to highlight that M S has resigned - but has not abandoned his aim to end corruption. :coffeeread:



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on November 14, 2016, 05:31:15 PM
Wonder what her qualifications are exactly?  :coffeeread:

Ukraine appoints 24-year-old female minister


http://www.vanguardngr.com/2016/11/ukraine-appoints-24-year-old-female-minister/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on November 14, 2016, 05:46:36 PM
Wonder what her qualifications are exactly?  :coffeeread:

Ukraine appoints 24-year-old female minister


http://www.vanguardngr.com/2016/11/ukraine-appoints-24-year-old-female-minister/

could it be that her father is rich and is the minister or internal affairs?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on November 15, 2016, 01:45:24 AM
Wonder what her qualifications are exactly?  :coffeeread:

Ukraine appoints 24-year-old female minister


http://www.vanguardngr.com/2016/11/ukraine-appoints-24-year-old-female-minister/

Its right there in the Article:
Quote
She also posted naked pictures of herself on social media sites and later worked
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 15, 2016, 02:38:14 AM
I see that you are expanding your range of sources Tom!

How on earth did you come to be scanning a Nigerian news site? Not knocking it, there's some interesting stories there. The one about how massive breasts can't support themselves unless they're fake stood out for me. ;)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on November 15, 2016, 04:16:53 AM
I see that you are expanding your range of sources Tom!

How on earth did you come to be scanning a Nigerian news site? Not knocking it, there's some interesting stories there. The one about how massive breasts can't support themselves unless they're fake stood out for me. ;)

 :laugh:  tiphat
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on November 15, 2016, 04:18:50 AM
Wonder what her qualifications are exactly?  :coffeeread:

Ukraine appoints 24-year-old female minister


http://www.vanguardngr.com/2016/11/ukraine-appoints-24-year-old-female-minister/

Its right there in the Article:
Quote
She also posted naked pictures of herself on social media sites and later worked

at a strip club?

 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on November 15, 2016, 07:10:45 AM
Good to see that it ain't all wasted!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on November 19, 2016, 09:09:08 AM
With such a large number of Russians living in Ukraine, promoting an anti Russian agenda will never allow for peaceful solutions.


Ukraine on the brink? Nationalists target band before Kiev concert over links to Russia

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/733671/Ukraine-nationalists-clash-police-Kiev-music-perform-Russia
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on November 23, 2016, 07:49:05 PM
Investigation Uncovers Poroshenko's Allies' Spanish Coastal Villas

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/investigation-uncovers-poroshenkos-allies-spanish-coastal-villas/ri17616
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on November 23, 2016, 08:13:42 PM
Have to wonder what is going on, with these young women being placed in a position they most likely are not qualified for

Ukraine names woman, 23, anti-corruption head

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38075466
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on November 24, 2016, 01:52:46 AM
Have to wonder what is going on, with these young women being placed in a position they most likely are not qualified for

Ukraine names woman, 23, anti-corruption head

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38075466

You mean, putting someone in charge who believes in fighting corruption ? 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on December 03, 2016, 01:55:56 PM
Fugitive Ukrainian MP says he handed proof of Poroshenko ‘buying votes’ to US Justice Dept

https://www.rt.com/news/369083-poroshenko-buying-votes-leak-onyshchenko/

It does make you wonder why this guy would take this info to the US, Poroshenko's sponsor who installed him......
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on December 03, 2016, 03:35:50 PM
Have to wonder what is going on, with these young women being placed in a position they most likely are not qualified for

Ukraine names woman, 23, anti-corruption head

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38075466

You mean, putting someone in charge who believes in fighting corruption ?
Ironic, since it was corruption that got her appointed  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on December 03, 2016, 05:26:56 PM
Have to wonder what is going on, with these young women being placed in a position they most likely are not qualified for

Ukraine names woman, 23, anti-corruption head

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38075466

You mean, putting someone in charge who believes in fighting corruption ?
Ironic, since it was corruption that got her appointed  :chuckle:

or maybe it was sexual favors. anti corruption head.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 04, 2016, 09:08:04 AM
the ukrainians might be emulating the Russians here. however the russians seem to choose attractive women who are also hugely competent. the ukrainians, not so much.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Gipsy on December 07, 2016, 07:47:17 PM
Court of Auditors unable to say how EU money was spent in Ukraine

https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/court-of-auditors-unable-to-say-how-eu-money-was-spent-in-ukraine/

Neatly wrapped up in cotton wool of course....

NO Blame...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on December 16, 2016, 02:11:39 AM
Russian court to decide if Euromaidan was a coup d'etat in Ukraine

http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-court-to-decide-if-euromaidan-was-a-coup-d-etat-in-ukraine-847448.html
That'll be a quicky. It was, according to Ukrainian law.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on December 17, 2016, 09:38:11 PM
Russian court to decide if Euromaidan was a coup d'etat in Ukraine

http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-court-to-decide-if-euromaidan-was-a-coup-d-etat-in-ukraine-847448.html

: coups d'état, (pronounced like the singular form), also known simply as a coup (/ˌkuː/), putsch or an overthrow, is the illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus.[1]

The military or other elites did not size power in Ukraine. Just Russia trying to explain its invasion of the Ukraine after the fact.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on December 18, 2016, 02:28:55 AM
Russian court to decide if Euromaidan was a coup d'etat in Ukraine

http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-court-to-decide-if-euromaidan-was-a-coup-d-etat-in-ukraine-847448.html

: coups d'état, (pronounced like the singular form), also known simply as a coup (/ˌkuː/), putsch or an overthrow, is the illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus.[1]

The military or other elites did not size power in Ukraine. Just Russia trying to explain its invasion of the Ukraine after the fact.
The military? no, but the other elites, most certainly.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on December 18, 2016, 09:15:57 AM
In law it is important to understand issues such as the Maidan coup and to make a decision as to the status of the regime that took over. For example, and being very general, if there was a coup then one can understand better issues such as was the new government part of a new state? This helps to understand the legitimacy of the new government and helps to understand events such as the attack by the successor state upon citizens of the previous state and the decision by at least one semi autonomous region to choose Federation with a previously existing state.

There's all sorts of legal ramifications, some might be seen as positive, others negative, depending upon one's perspective.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on January 13, 2017, 09:36:52 AM
Does anyone see the logic of this?

Kiev Pays 20% More for 'French' Gas to Spite Russia as Ukraine Faces Cold WinterRead more: 

https://sputniknews.com/business/201701131049558874-ukraine-european-russian-gas-deliveries/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Gipsy on January 13, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
Does anyone see the logic of this?

Kiev Pays 20% More for 'French' Gas to Spite Russia as Ukraine Faces Cold WinterRead more:

https://sputniknews.com/business/201701131049558874-ukraine-european-russian-gas-deliveries/

They are NOT paying for the gas, they have a $3mil credit line with the French Co, and the EU is guaranteeing the deal...
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on January 29, 2017, 07:02:37 PM
Hopefully this witch will never again hold a position of political influence.

YOU'RE FIRED: A Video Tribute to Unemployed Cookie Monster Victoria Nuland

http://russia-insider.com/en/youre-fired-video-tribute-unemployed-cookie-monster-victoria-nuland/ri18728

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 01, 2017, 12:24:08 PM
This seems like a last chance effort by kiev to try and gain some attention.


A sudden burst of fighting in Donbass leaves dozens dead

http://rbth.com/international/2017/02/01/a-sudden-burst-of-fighting-in-donbass-leaves-dozens-dead_693503
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on February 01, 2017, 01:43:33 PM
I was wondering when TC would bring his 'messenger' style 'news' on this subject


TC - can you explain how 'Kiev' started a fight to potentially lose control of Avdiivka and it's key industrial facilities ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ukraine-fighting-flares-eastern-town-avdiivka-170131152755966.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ukraine-fighting-flares-eastern-town-avdiivka-170131152755966.html)


If anyone is interested in the OSCE reports on the breaches of the ceasefire ..

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports)



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 01, 2017, 08:02:39 PM
I was wondering when TC would bring his 'messenger' style 'news' on this subject


TC - can you explain how 'Kiev' started a fight to potentially lose control of Avdiivka and it's key industrial facilities ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ukraine-fighting-flares-eastern-town-avdiivka-170131152755966.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ukraine-fighting-flares-eastern-town-avdiivka-170131152755966.html)


If anyone is interested in the OSCE reports on the breaches of the ceasefire ..

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports)







Kiev has been the aggressor in most of the fighting. Can you tell us what the separatists have to gain with continued fighting?

Here's a fairly good source of what is actually happening in eastern Ukraine.

https://dninews.com/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Gipsy on February 02, 2017, 12:56:19 AM
I was wondering when TC would bring his 'messenger' style 'news' on this subject


TC - can you explain how 'Kiev' started a fight to potentially lose control of Avdiivka and it's key industrial facilities ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ukraine-fighting-flares-eastern-town-avdiivka-170131152755966.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/ukraine-fighting-flares-eastern-town-avdiivka-170131152755966.html)


If anyone is interested in the OSCE reports on the breaches of the ceasefire ..

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports)







Kiev has been the aggressor in most of the fighting. Can you tell us what the separatists have to gain with continued fighting?

Here's a fairly good source of what is actually happening in eastern Ukraine.

https://dninews.com/

When reading the reports on the link to the OSCE website, they do not place the blame to the recent "Flare up" on the "Rebel forces".

I think that the current fighting was started by Ukrainian military on direct orders from the president, possibly acting upon advice from Merkel, in order to push Trump into supporting the Ukrainian government when his obvious desire is to extract the US from the issue..

 :censored: ing politics.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on February 02, 2017, 07:39:33 AM

Kiev has been the aggressor in most of the fighting.
If you mean prior to the Minsk accords - it's hard not to mock your assertion that the national forces are the aggressors when the rebels were taking UA territory - and the insurrection was aided and abetted by Moscow - even using the term 'novorossiya' was  provocative ....

Yet, in Russia Putin strengthened laws on 'promotion in the media of cessation from the RF' , whilst doing EXACTLY that in UA  .... ?!!


Can you tell us what the separatists have to gain with continued fighting?


Ah, they will refuse to take any territory gained - including the plant - should that be the outcome ?

Here's a fairly good source of what is actually happening in eastern Ukraine.

https://dninews.com/

'Good source' ?  It's produced BY the 'rebels' ...


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on February 02, 2017, 07:45:28 AM

When reading the reports on the link to the OSCE website, they do not place the blame to the recent "Flare up" on the "Rebel forces".

They don't mention blame - they are there to observe - they need to be able to observe. Just pay attention to who control what after each action

I think that the current fighting was started by Ukrainian military on direct orders from the president, possibly acting upon advice from Merkel, in order to push Trump into supporting the Ukrainian government when his obvious desire is to extract the US from the issue..

 :censored: ing politics.

May be this will be another reason why you need me gone ...

I don't respect your reasoning ...  I'm quite sure Merkel would settle for frozen conflict over loss of life. Given that since Aug' 14  - when Russia actively got involved  - as opposed to 'advisers on holiday' ..having been just about to encircle Lugansk / Donetsk - Kiev;s forces have come off worse.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 02, 2017, 11:26:10 AM
Putin Explains Reasons Behind Ukraine Crisis Aggravation

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201702021050283647-putin-ukraine-crisis/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 02, 2017, 11:47:27 AM
John McCain and Lindsey Graham Visited Donbass Frontlines Ahead of Current Bout of Fighting, Told Ukrainians to go on Offensive

http://russia-insider.com/en/john-mccain-and-lindsey-graham-visited-ukraine-frontlines-ahead-current-bout-fighting-encouraged
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 02, 2017, 11:50:55 AM
Trump Admin Declines to Blame Russia for Fighting in East Ukraine

Which would have been truly absurd, but that never stopped Obama

http://russia-insider.com/en/white-house-unfazed-recent-bout-fighting-east-ukraine/ri18777
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 02, 2017, 12:02:11 PM
Crimea & Minsk Agreements: What the British media fails to mention

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/376048-crimea-minsk-agreements-british-media/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on February 02, 2017, 12:03:42 PM
Trump Admin Declines to Blame Russia for Fighting in East Ukraine

Which would have been truly absurd, but that never stopped Obama

http://russia-insider.com/en/white-house-unfazed-recent-bout-fighting-east-ukraine/ri18777

:))

Really, so 'Tramp' not blaming either side = it's Kiev what started, now ?

That's quite a jump ...

This is journalism ?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 03, 2017, 11:55:38 AM
Obama might not have done much to better United states and Russian relations, but had John McCain been elected I'm wondering if anyone would have survived WW3? McCain really needs to be removed from the Senate, and from any position of power. The guy is a total nut case.

McCain says Russia testing U.S. in Ukraine, urges Trump to hit back

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN15H2JU
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 05, 2017, 01:01:41 PM
Guns fall silent in flashpoint Ukraine town

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-tells-poroshenko-try-bring-peace-ukraine-014947143.html

The media has focused much on Trumps statement quoted below.


"We will work with Ukraine, Russia, and all other parties involved to help them restore peace along the border," Trump said in a White House statement after talking to Poroshenko

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN15J0RA
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 06, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
Ukrainian Media and Intelligence People Freely Admit Fighting in East Began With Government Offensive

http://russia-insider.com/en/ukrainian-media-intelligence-freely-admit-fighting-east-started-after-government-offensive/ri18819

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on February 16, 2017, 09:50:48 AM
Ukraine declares state of energy emergency

http://www.enca.com/world/ukraine-declares-state-of-energy-emergency
And they dont even have to supply crimea anymore
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 16, 2017, 10:31:29 AM
That situation is absolutely insane!

The 'Nazis' are blockading energy (coal) deliveries from the east of the country and because the government is scared of the nazis they are doing nothing to stop the blockade and, as a result they are having to run rolling blackouts.

Government probably figures that it is safer (for them) to continue to kneecap the national economy than have the nazis rioting in Kiev again.

Don't ANYONE try to tell us that things are not totally to shit in Ukraine. If you do then you are showing yourself to be stupidly uninformed or a purposeful liar.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on February 16, 2017, 03:29:12 PM
That situation is absolutely insane!

The 'Nazis' are blockading energy (coal) deliveries from the east of the country and because the government is scared of the nazis they are doing nothing to stop the blockade and, as a result they are having to run rolling blackouts.

Government probably figures that it is safer (for them) to continue to kneecap the national economy than have the nazis rioting in Kiev again.

Don't ANYONE try to tell us that things are not totally to shit in Ukraine. If you do then you are showing yourself to be stupidly uninformed or a purposeful liar.

Churchill said it at the end of ww2. The future Nazi government will be the one calling everyone else Nazi. Putin fits this very well. All of this is being fought in Ukraine so why is Russia involved? Because they are the NAZIS! They say and do things like Hitler and justified the war based on the people being ethnic Russians. This is a Nazi concept.

These nationalist in Ukraine are very popular. Remember Brexit is a national movement, Donald Trump election is a national movement. National movement are very common all over Europe. Not saying there are no Nazi in Ukraine they are all over the world. The largest part of this movement is nationalism. They want to keep the Ukraine whole and under one government. It is not race based and they do not want land from any other country. They do not want to tell any other country how to live. They are not trying to collect territory from other countries where the people speak Ukrainian neither.

My ethnic Russian girl with many ten of thousands of other ethnic Russians lives very well in western Ukraine with no problems.

In Ukraine rolling black out are no big deal. They had a lot of them during the war. If they became a big problem I will simply bring the girl a few solar panels. They have become very cheap and efficient now.  Remember most homes in Ukraine use very little power. Mainly a few lights and the refrigerator. Even refrigerators are smaller and they are less dependent on them than we are in the west.

If this gets real bad then there will be a new crop of millionaires. Some one will have to sell and install all those solar panels.

The people of Ukraine are some of the most adaptable people in the world. Compared to what has already happened to them this will likely not be any big deal. Most likely this problem will be solved in a couple of months without there being much of an effect in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on February 17, 2017, 02:17:23 AM
Churchill said it at the end of ww2. The future Nazi government will be the one calling everyone else Nazi. Putin fits this very well. All of this is being fought in Ukraine so why is Russia involved? Because they are the NAZIS! They say and do things like Hitler and justified the war based on the people being ethnic Russians. This is a Nazi concept.
You mean the USA democrats here, don't you. Russia / Putin never called anyone else Nazi, so the first already doesn't apply. Russia is involved because the War is less than 0km (actually on!) located south/west of the Russian border. Such a thing can spill over very easily into Russia and they don't want that. So they are not nazi's. They are patriots, but apparently patriots == nazi unless you're american, then patriots are cool.

Quote
My ethnic Russian girl with many ten of thousands of other ethnic Russians lives very well in western Ukraine with no problems.
Except they can't speak Russian by law, with huge fines. Russians are harassed and they are afraid to tell anyone they are Russian. You're not being truthful here.

Quote
In Ukraine rolling black out are no big deal. They had a lot of them during the war. If they became a big problem I will simply bring the girl a few solar panels. They have become very cheap and efficient now.  Remember most homes in Ukraine use very little power. Mainly a few lights and the refrigerator. Even refrigerators are smaller and they are less dependent on them than we are in the west.
Rolling blackouts were non-existent back when I was dating in Ukraine. So its become much, much worse since then.
Quote
The people of Ukraine are some of the most adaptable people in the world. Compared to what has already happened to them this will likely not be any big deal. Most likely this problem will be solved in a couple of months without there being much of an effect in Ukraine.
This conflict has been going on for 2 years already, the only way it will be solved, is if diplomacy will do its job and the military is pulled out of the Donbass region. What makes you think it will be solved in a couple of months?

What if Ukraine will actually make an effort to make peoples lives better in Ukraine. Sooner or later the citizens in Donbass will start to resent the seperatists, because the rest of Ukraine has it better.
This is the path to follow, but unfortunately it will never happen.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 17, 2017, 02:39:51 AM
Actually the reference was to fascism and is probably apocryphal. But no need to let fact get in the way of a good fantasy.

Texan77, you probably have ancestors who died if smallpox or syphilis. The fact that not all of them died is not a vote in favour of the return of these fatal trials of life. Likewise, it is, almost certainly dishonest on your part to suggest that the breakdown of the Ukrainian power grid is no problem for the long suffering Ukrainian people.

Possibly it is time to stop regurgitating the half assed propaganda of your, non too bright, Pravy Sektor girlfriend.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on February 27, 2017, 05:12:40 PM
My personal view is Crimea and  an overwhelming majority of it's citizens are content to be part of Russia. Now I know Kiev will never take control, but for argument sake if Kiev was to regain control of Crimea, what would stop those that consider themselves as Russian to standup against Kiev, making for another military conflict?


Crimean Top Official on Poroshenko's Promise of 'Support': 'Just Leave Us Alone'

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201702261051059612-crimean-official-poroshenko-promise/

‘Return’ of Crimea is impossible – Russian senator on latest Ukrainian plan

https://www.rt.com/politics/378731-return-of-crimea-is-impossible/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on March 10, 2017, 03:00:47 AM
Gunboat Diplomacy: Donetsk Forces Prep for Amphibious Attacks by Ukraine's Navy

https://sputniknews.com/military/201703081051379873-ukraine-navy-probing-attacks-donetsk/

Soon, the attack on mariupol narrative will recommence... The donbass will have to conquer Mariupol to repel the ukrainian navy gunboats instead of putin's landbridge ....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on May 29, 2017, 11:25:14 AM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on May 29, 2017, 11:43:40 AM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350

Because geriatric and senile John McCain claims that Russia is our greatest enemy.  :whistle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on May 29, 2017, 12:33:02 PM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350
As long as people (Even on this board) keep denying nazi's are part of the government, then these things are possible.

- Nazi trinkets
- Nazi salute
- Nazi flags and symbols

Yep, nazis.

Ah and they worship bandera now, despite the horrors for which he was responsible.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on May 29, 2017, 02:28:17 PM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350


I think asking ISPs to block certain Russian social media, email providers and access to RU TV via the net is short -sighted - no matter what 'games' the Kremlin have encouraged in Ukraine. 

Loads of folks have family / friends in the other country.

'Nazis'  - far right nationalists are present in both governments....   

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on May 29, 2017, 09:59:38 PM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350
As long as people (Even on this board) keep denying nazi's are part of the government, then these things are possible.

- Nazi trinkets
- Nazi salute
- Nazi flags and symbols

Yep, nazis.

Ah and they worship bandera now, despite the horrors for which he was responsible.

While Banderra, is at best a distasteful figure so was Stalin and Beria. I would venture a substantial percentage of Russians revere these 'leaders'.

If one goes onto US eBay or even mainstream live auctions one can find both new and used Nazi flags and symbols. If one visits Ukraine they are not visible, I just walked DOWN the Andriyivskyy Descent, even here zippo. In the West of the country the support for the extremeists or nationalists (far Right/Left) is a small hard core group, perhaps not even 5%. At one point this group controlled 40 or so seats in the Rada now they have less than 7 out of 450.   

Please stop this nonsense, Russian is used on a daily and regular basis in Kiev and elsewhere in the country. One sees the occasional Russian license plate on cars in Kiev. In the United States there have been attempts to ban Spanish usage in the government, they all have come to naught.

The only ones in hysterics are some who have not been to Ukraine, recently or never.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on May 29, 2017, 10:18:38 PM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350
As long as people (Even on this board) keep denying nazi's are part of the government, then these things are possible.

- Nazi trinkets
- Nazi salute
- Nazi flags and symbols

Yep, nazis.

Ah and they worship bandera now, despite the horrors for which he was responsible.

While Banderra, is at best a distasteful figure so was Stalin and Beria. I would venture a substantial percentage of Russians revere these 'leaders'.

If one goes onto US eBay or even mainstream live auctions one can find both new and used Nazi flags and symbols. If one visits Ukraine they are not visible, I just walked DOWN the Andriyivskyy Descent, even here zippo. In the West of the country the support for the extremeists or nationalists (far Right/Left) is a small hard core group, perhaps not even 5%. At one point this group controlled 40 or so seats in the Rada now they have less than 7 out of 450.   

Please stop this nonsense, Russian is used on a daily and regular basis in Kiev and elsewhere in the country. One sees the occasional Russian license plate on cars in Kiev. In the United States there have been attempts to ban Spanish usage in the government, they all have come to naught.

The only ones in hysterics are some who have not been to Ukraine, recently or never.

Isn't the Communist party still a force in Russia? With all due respect to those on both sides I believe Communism murdered more people than the Nazi's. Not that either group are to be emulated.  :coffeeread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on May 29, 2017, 10:21:40 PM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350
As long as people (Even on this board) keep denying nazi's are part of the government, then these things are possible.

- Nazi trinkets
- Nazi salute
- Nazi flags and symbols

Yep, nazis.

Ah and they worship bandera now, despite the horrors for which he was responsible.

While Banderra, is at best a distasteful figure so was Stalin and Beria. I would venture a substantial percentage of Russians revere these 'leaders'.

If one goes onto US eBay or even mainstream live auctions one can find both new and used Nazi flags and symbols. If one visits Ukraine they are not visible, I just walked DOWN the Andriyivskyy Descent, even here zippo. In the West of the country the support for the extremeists or nationalists (far Right/Left) is a small hard core group, perhaps not even 5%. At one point this group controlled 40 or so seats in the Rada now they have less than 7 out of 450.   

Please stop this nonsense, Russian is used on a daily and regular basis in Kiev and elsewhere in the country. One sees the occasional Russian license plate on cars in Kiev. In the United States there have been attempts to ban Spanish usage in the government, they all have come to naught.

The only ones in hysterics are some who have not been to Ukraine, recently or never.

Isn't the Communist party still a force in Russia? With all due respect to those on both sides I believe Communism murdered more people than the Nazi's. Not that either group are to be emulated.  :coffeeread:

Both in Russia and Ukraine the Communist party rebranded and are a voting block to be considered. They control seats in the Duma and Rada.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on May 29, 2017, 10:25:10 PM
Ever notice how the western media and western governments as well seem to think it's acceptable for Poroshenko and the Ukrainian government to alienate a large percentage of its citizens?
If Trump was to do the same to Muslims, Mexicans, or any group of individuals the liberals bleeding hearts would be screaming.
Why is it acceptable to treat Russians in this manner?

Banning all things Russian: Ukraine's 'special' path

https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/29/banning-all-things-russian-ukraines-special-path_772350
As long as people (Even on this board) keep denying nazi's are part of the government, then these things are possible.

- Nazi trinkets
- Nazi salute
- Nazi flags and symbols

Yep, nazis.

Ah and they worship bandera now, despite the horrors for which he was responsible.

While Banderra, is at best a distasteful figure so was Stalin and Beria. I would venture a substantial percentage of Russians revere these 'leaders'.

If one goes onto US eBay or even mainstream live auctions one can find both new and used Nazi flags and symbols. If one visits Ukraine they are not visible, I just walked DOWN the Andriyivskyy Descent, even here zippo. In the West of the country the support for the extremeists or nationalists (far Right/Left) is a small hard core group, perhaps not even 5%. At one point this group controlled 40 or so seats in the Rada now they have less than 7 out of 450.   

Please stop this nonsense, Russian is used on a daily and regular basis in Kiev and elsewhere in the country. One sees the occasional Russian license plate on cars in Kiev. In the United States there have been attempts to ban Spanish usage in the government, they all have come to naught.

The only ones in hysterics are some who have not been to Ukraine, recently or never.

Isn't the Communist party still a force in Russia? With all due respect to those on both sides I believe Communism murdered more people than the Nazi's. Not that either group are to be emulated.  :coffeeread:

Both in Russia and Ukraine the Communist party rebranded and are a voting block to be considered. They control seats in the Duma and Rada.

I edited my post to reflect the status in Russia. I don't understand how it's still possible that the Communist party exists but the Nazi party does not.

They're both radical choices but I see the Nazi's as the lesser of two evils.  :hidechair:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on May 30, 2017, 01:15:44 AM

Please stop this nonsense, Russian is used on a daily and regular basis in Kiev and elsewhere in the country. One sees the occasional Russian license plate on cars in Kiev. In the United States there have been attempts to ban Spanish usage in the government, they all have come to naught.

The only ones in hysterics are some who have not been to Ukraine, recently or never.
I said: there are nazi's in Ukrain's government.

You said: 7 out of 450.

Thanks for agreeing with me.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on June 07, 2017, 11:03:43 PM

US Seeks to Keep Ukraine as 'Minimum Wage' Vassal

https://sputniknews.com/world/201706071054394870-ukraine-us-aid/

It is good to see that editorporting is not only limited to American 'news' sources.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on June 10, 2017, 07:55:55 PM

US Seeks to Keep Ukraine as 'Minimum Wage' Vassal

https://sputniknews.com/world/201706071054394870-ukraine-us-aid/

American Minimum wages are 2x more than current Ukrainian wages. And more than Russian minimums. I have a LOT of friends who would like the extra money.

Although, it would make visiting the country expensive.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on June 17, 2017, 11:46:55 AM
Really? Vibrant transformation?

The United States must support Ukraine's vibrant transformation

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international-affairs/338179-why-the-united-states-must-support-ukraines-vibrant
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on June 17, 2017, 09:07:56 PM

Please stop this nonsense, Russian is used on a daily and regular basis in Kiev and elsewhere in the country. One sees the occasional Russian license plate on cars in Kiev. In the United States there have been attempts to ban Spanish usage in the government, they all have come to naught.

The only ones in hysterics are some who have not been to Ukraine, recently or never.
I said: there are nazi's in Ukrain's government.

You said: 7 out of 450.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Never forget RUSSIA is responsible for fascists in Ukraine - Fascists are almost all descended from white Russians.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on June 24, 2017, 09:49:11 PM
Ukrainian Lawmakers Prepare Impeachment Proceedings Against President Poroshenko

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201706231054911890-poroshenko-impeachment-proceedings/

There is in fact another thread regarding this. What was odd in Kiev one could see attempts by Tymoschenko loyalists at gathering signatures. It seemed most of the public wanted little to do with this attempt at impeachment.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on June 24, 2017, 11:46:28 PM
Ukrainian Lawmakers Prepare Impeachment Proceedings Against President Poroshenko

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201706231054911890-poroshenko-impeachment-proceedings/

There is in fact another thread regarding this. What was odd in Kiev one could see attempts by Tymoschenko loyalists at gathering signatures. It seemed most of the public wanted little to do with this attempt at impeachment.

My experience seems that many people are not pleased with Pres. Poroshenko.  BUT, they see him as MUCH better than previous Presidents, or the current 'alternatives.'
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on June 26, 2017, 02:02:53 AM
Many In Eastern Ukraine Want To Join Russia

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/24/534207470/many-in-eastern-ukraine-want-to-join-russia
They've wanted that since 2014. But Russia refused them. Only Crimea was accepted.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on June 26, 2017, 02:12:22 AM
Many In Eastern Ukraine Want To Join Russia

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/24/534207470/many-in-eastern-ukraine-want-to-join-russia
They've wanted that since 2014. But Russia refused them. Only Crimea was accepted.

Russian's from Moscow across a broad swath of southern Ukraine tried to attempt what was a success on the Krim. The local population rejected them and they failed.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on June 26, 2017, 02:17:22 AM
Many In Eastern Ukraine Want To Join Russia

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/24/534207470/many-in-eastern-ukraine-want-to-join-russia
They've wanted that since 2014. But Russia refused them. Only Crimea was accepted.

Russian's from Moscow across a broad swath of southern Ukraine tried to attempt what was a success on the Krim. The local population rejected them and they failed.
First hit on google:
http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/russias-leader-putin-rejects-ukrainian-separatists-aim-become-part-russia/
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on June 26, 2017, 02:44:30 AM
From a neutral source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%93present)

let me add another

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
No, wikipedia is not neutral, anyone can edit pages and link to a few sources (True or not) and they will accept it.

Since very little Ukrainians/Russians speak english, we will have to assume this to be propaganda.
(+ the first link has a Ukrainian language page, but not Russian.... yeah right).
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on June 26, 2017, 02:51:03 AM
From a neutral source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%93present)

let me add another

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
No, wikipedia is not neutral, anyone can edit pages and link to a few sources (True or not) and they will accept it.

Since very little Ukrainians/Russians speak english, we will have to assume this to be propaganda.
(+ the first link has a Ukrainian language page, but not Russian.... yeah right).

I think the links are also available in Russia. But no not anyone can edit the content. It is though a feeble try at discrediting the facts and reality, that are largely backed up with reference material. Sort of sad that one can not step back and see the big picture.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on July 04, 2017, 12:10:52 PM
Kiev's Coal Blockade: Wreaking Havoc on Ukraine but Great Business for US

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/kievs-coal-blockade-wreaking-havoc-ukraine-great-business-us/ri20252

An 'insider' from Russia wonders why Ukraine won't buy coal from an non-recognised regime and this is  'news' ...... ? 


 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 05, 2017, 06:14:06 PM
There Is a Suicide Epidemic of Ukrainian Soliders and Veterans of Staggering 

http://russia-insider.com/en/military/there-suicide-epidemic-ukrainian-soliders-and-veterans-staggering-proportions/ri20271
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on July 05, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
From a neutral source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%93present)

let me add another

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
No, wikipedia is not neutral, anyone can edit pages and link to a few sources (True or not) and they will accept it.

Since very little Ukrainians/Russians speak english, we will have to assume this to be propaganda.
(+ the first link has a Ukrainian language page, but not Russian.... yeah right).

You trust Google, but not Wiki?

Yeah right.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: el_guero on July 05, 2017, 07:23:22 PM
There Is a Suicide Epidemic of Ukrainian Soliders and Veterans of Staggering

http://russia-insider.com/en/military/there-suicide-epidemic-ukrainian-soliders-and-veterans-staggering-proportions/ri20271

I bet the numbers are as bad for Russian Vets right now. A 'secret war?' Money must be real good, or their morale is ___.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 06, 2017, 02:11:10 AM
You trust Google, but not Wiki?

Yeah right.
If you must know, I trust neither Wiki nor Google.

I saw Wiki lie too often in area's where I'm the expert.  And "yourself" apparently is not a good source even if others quote you on the subject.

Its like saying Linus Torvalds is not a good source for commenting on the Linux Kernel.

As to google:
They are the worst search-engine you can find, because they target your "profile" and "adjust" their search results according to various attributes like: what you searched before, location, advertisement agencies and a few other things. This means you will become trapped in a 'search bubble' you don't even know exists, until you try something like duckduckgo.com



Mark.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on July 06, 2017, 06:23:50 AM
You trust Google, but not Wiki?

Yeah right.
If you must know, I trust neither Wiki nor Google.

I saw Wiki lie too often in area's where I'm the expert.  And "yourself" apparently is not a good source even if others quote you on the subject.

Its like saying Linus Torvalds is not a good source for commenting on the Linux Kernel.

As to google:
They are the worst search-engine you can find, because they target your "profile" and "adjust" their search results according to various attributes like: what you searched before, location, advertisement agencies and a few other things. This means you will become trapped in a 'search bubble' you don't even know exists, until you try something like duckduckgo.com

Mark.

Mark, Is correct here in the sense that much of the information on the web via search engines such as Google is targeted and manipulated.

Is Wikipedia perfect no way, but it does give a foundation to study further. It tends to be neutral and the time lines are accurate.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on July 06, 2017, 07:20:56 AM
Is Wikipedia perfect no way, but it does give a foundation to study further. It tends to be neutral and the time lines are accurate.
Yes, Wikipedia is an excellent source to begin your search for knowledge, but I don't agree that it tends to be neutral.

In my opinion, it is only neutral on well-established facts (like science, mathematics, etc.) , history over 5-10 years old and such knowledge. But especially politically sensitive information is often colored to a pro-west (EU/USA) view and does not necessarily reflect the truth.

Mark.

History will always be 'coloured' by the conquers or winners.

Though it does not make them wrong.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on July 07, 2017, 03:22:52 PM
US appoints ex-NATO envoy to handle Ukraine crisis

https://www.rt.com/news/395604-us-ukraine-crisis-envoy/

I suspect K. Volker will not be a means to a solution.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 15, 2017, 04:40:03 AM
EU and US caused Ukraine crisis - Russia lashes out over Crimea

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/828784/Russia-Ukraine-crisis-crimea-Russian-Foreign-Minister-Sergei-Lavrov-EU-USA

Oh goody, lets see how we can pick that one apart, just reading it made my stomach twist.

Quote
Since Russia annexed Crimea in March 2014, the Ukrainian peninsula has become something akin to a “black box,” with little verifiable data on conditions available to counterbalance the official Russian narrative
There is little data that things are getting worse yeah, but there is an abundance of data that people are still happy, life is slowly improving, the infrastructure is getting repaired. Corruption is going down and overall the isle of Crimea is doing well.

Quote
that all is well in the Kremlin’s newest territorial holding. Now, however, a new study has provided perhaps the most detailed look to date on the true state of political and economic play on the peninsula. Published by the Ukrainian Institute for the Future, a new but well-connected think tank based in Kiev, the report—entitled “Crimea: Three Years of Occupation”—draws on data from local sources and the analysis of seasoned specialists to paint a damning picture of the human and economic costs of Russian rule, and to make a compelling case that the Kremlin’s Crimean project is a threat to Crimeans themselves, as well as to everyone else.
Ah a Ukrainian think thank, one that does well by giving reports favorable to the Kiev Administration. So lets continue.

Quote
Russia’s control of Crimea, the report notes, represents a massive social engineering initiative. Under Moscow’s administration, Crimea has seen the imposition of a raft of draconian new laws governing everything from military conscription to alcohol consumption,
Russia as a whole is trying to combat alcohol abuse. New laws are there for everybody, from Moscow to sakhalin to -yes- Crimea. Military Conscription was always there, both in Ukraine and Russia. Nothing new there.

Quote
a surge in human rights abuses, and the “systemic persecution” of the region’s indigenous Tatar population (whose governing body, the mejlis, has been formally banned as a “terrorist organization.”) The goal of this effort is twofold: to subjugate the region’s native population and to tether it more closely to Moscow.
I didn't see that, if anything the amount of Muslim interference in Crimea has grown 10-fold under Russia's rule because the Tatars have been prosecuted -less- under Russia, not more.
One of my favorite restaurants kept playing so much Muslim music I paid the bill and left.

Quote
The results are striking. To date, some 10 percent of Crimea’s total population (over two million in 2014) has fled.
Really? and how would you know that. Perhaps 10% died because of the kiev-imposed electric & water shortage.  Or perhaps Ethnic Ukrainian people simply went back to Ukraine because of their heritage. In fact, if you believe the latter, the outcome of the referendum suddenly becomes much more honest.

Quote
These people have been replaced through an influx of Russians—mostly civil servants, military personnel, or retirees—who have been given significant economic perks by the Russian government for resettling there. And this population shift is still a work in progress. As the study notes, Russia’s official plans for the area envisions an increase in the Crimean population by another one million Russians in the next five years.
Yes, the population is hopeful and thus booming, birthrates are up as well from 1.67 to 1.82.

Quote
To date, some 10 percent of Crimea’s total population has fled.
So first they didn't know how and now its 'fled' ... See above as to why.

Quote
Economic conditions on the peninsula, meanwhile, have deteriorated markedly under Russian rule. Agriculture, once the mainstay of the local economy, has collapsed, with production of staples such as rice, soy, and corn now “almost fully destroyed,” and a surge in the once largely self-sufficient region’s need to import commodities like milk, meat, and eggs.
It had to, kiev shut off the main water supply and crops withered. Nothing to do with Russia but everything with Ukraine and the wests stupid sanctions. They're killing the Crimea region, not Russia.

Let me quote a pro-africa source on that :
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/12/dam-leaves-crimea-population-chronic-water-shortage-161229092648659.html
Quote
(In just one example, Crimean meat production fell by an estimated 84 percent over the course of 2016.) The region’s banking sector, meanwhile, has cratered, ravaged by Western sanctions and an exodus of Ukrainian financial institutions that has led to an increasingly cash-intensive economy.
No water, no plants, no livestock... Still no surprise here.

Quote
What has grown, however, is the size of the state. Crimea’s annexation in 2014 was followed by an infusion of Kremlin funding intended to bring conditions in the territory (such as infrastructure and pensions) up to par with those of Russia’s other regions. According to Ukraine’s Razumkov Centre, Russia now foots the bill for approximately three-quarters of Crimea’s budgetary expenditures—accounting for a whopping $1.4 billion in 2016.
Tourism was the trade of Crimea , in order to help the region Moscow created jobs there by gov't workers. Although not ideal, its better than being in a gutter without money.

Quote
(By contrast, the Kremlin has progressively tightened its fiscal belt in relation to Russia’s other federal subjects—resulting in increasingly dire economic conditions in those places.) All this has come at a high cost; Moscow has been forced to cancel a string of high-profile projects in other regions in order to pay for its Crimean adventure. None of this appears to have prompted Russian officials to rethink their policies, however.
You mean nobody paid taxes before and Russia does enforce taxation. So yes, it has tightened its fiscal grip on Crimea as people learn that tax-evation under Russian rule will not work.

Quote
For the Kremlin, control of Crimea is also a distinctly military project. The Crimean city of Sevastopol has long served as the home port for Russia’s Black Sea Fleet (via a long-term lease from the Ukrainian government), and the region is vital to Russia’s ability to project naval might. Moscow’s annexation of the territory has been followed by a major, systematic expansion of Russia’s military presence there—and, by extension, in the Black Sea region.

Since the annexation, the study notes, Russia has reinforced its existing fleet of ships in the Black Sea with the deployment of at least six new vessels, as well as new land-based missile battalions. At the same time, it has doubled the number of naval personnel it has stationed in Sevastopol (from 12,500 in 2014 to over 25,000 today). In other words, “the annexation of Crimea allowed [Russian President Vladimir] Putin not only to ‘save’ its Black Sea Navy, but to transform it into a threat… for the whole region.”
From a leased base to a friendly base.... makes sense but I fail to see how the extra sailors there spending money is bad for Crimea.

Quote
Russia has attempted to portray its annexation of the peninsula in historic terms, as a reclamation of lost lands and a culmination of its destiny. The data, however, suggest that Crimea has become a tremendous economic millstone for the Kremlin—one that the Russia, still languishing under the weight of multilateral sanctions and low world oil prices, can ill afford. As Taras Beresovets, the study’s editor, puts it, “Crimea is a time bomb for Russia”—one that could, sooner or later, threaten its society and put its “neo-imperial project” in jeopardy by depleting the country’s already-taxed national resources.
Crimea is Russian, always was, always will be. Someone made a misstake giving away Crimea and in 1990/1991 people became aware they were not with Russia anymore.

Quote
For the former Soviet republics, meanwhile, Crimea’s situation should serve as a cautionary tale. The Russian government has consistently pushed an expansionist narrative throughout the territory of the former Soviet Union, seeking to entice ethnic “compatriots” (a term it uses very loosely) in countries such as Kazakhstan and Moldova to rejoin the Russian Federation. Crimea shows what it looks like to be part of the new Russia—and provides yet another reminder of why, having fought so hard to gain their independence from Moscow a quarter century ago, those nations should want nothing of the sort.
Perhaps if Ukraine had governed Crimea better in from say 1990-2012 , Repaired infrastructure, kept its promises and fought corruption then Crimea wouldn't have wanted to break away. Good government = loyal people, everyone knows that.

Mark
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on July 15, 2017, 06:04:13 AM
Credibility runs away when the source for the research data is 'social media'.

This document will have been created to generate soundbites and headlines. Accuracy and research rigour are not a requirement here. The chances are that the 'findings' were outlined in the writer's briefing document.

I am sure that there are some stories to tell, stories that reflect poorly on Russia. This kind of laziness does not serve the Ukrainian cause well but it seems reflective of an attitude and ethos prevalent within some parts of Ukrainian (and hangers on) society. The idea that 'we are more clever than you' and thus the expectation is that work can be lazily done to fool the audience.

Second year university students level - from a decent university. Learned enough to be able to tell a story, don't yet know enough to make an objective case.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Wiz on July 18, 2017, 01:46:59 AM
British Man Who Joined East Ukraine Rebels Sentenced to Five Years for "Terrorism"

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/british-man-who-joined-east-ukraine-rebels-sentenced-five-years-terrorism/ri20408

Yes it seems about right, if you think about it. I for one do not have any sympathy for Mr. Stimson.

How could you have any sympathy about Mr Stimson..... when you avoided to mention this comment by the Judge:

"'There is no evidence at all that you at any stage used any violence upon anyone. There is no evidence that you actually engaged in combat.

'On the contrary there is evidence that your presentation as a fighting man was in large part an exaggeration on your own part or even the product of fantasy.'"


So every body who went to Spain to fight against the dictatorship of General Franko, in your view was a terrorist.

I think this comment in the article summit up correctly, the complete subversion and subjugation of British Justice by the "Zionists"!

quote by Tappatio:

And yet, REAL terrorists who join ISIS/Daesh and other terrorist groups can come and go as they please in Britain.

Stimson joined a DEMOCRATIC, popular movement in Eastern Ukraine - which has a huge Russian majority. As the court stated, neither he or any of the other anti-fascist rebels in Eastern Ukraine have committed ANY war crimes or atrocities.

Isn't it fun when your government is a wh0re for the Rothschild-Bilderberg cartel? Makes one really believe that old George Orwell was a magic oracle."

also quote from JPH

British military assistance training Kiev troops to shell Donbas is of course quite legitimate. So actually Stimson has to be sentenced so that the UK Tory regime can keep up the fiction that it supports a 'legitimate' government in Kiev engaged in genocide on its own population given Poroshenko's own statements on that so called 'ATO' (anti terrorist operation) in Eastern Ukraine.

So UK rather sentenced an innocent humanitarian helper than acknowledge its own support for an illegal repressive Kiev regime. Anything to hold up the Tories' fictions.

 >:(
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on July 18, 2017, 02:10:15 AM
Wiz,

Sorry if I ignore the Zionist/Rothschild/Bilderberg/++++ comments.

Lets be clear, it seems Stimson was in Ukraine to fight a nation that is protecting it's integrity. He was caught by his own postings.

To bring in the Spanish civil war in this context is almost equal to trampling on those who fought in the World Wars as an terrorist. Bear in mind you have commented on this before. Simply said Stimson is an ass.

I could note other instances but what is the point?

Please understand from my point of view and the rest of the world Donbass is a Russian fantasy.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 18, 2017, 02:22:15 AM
Please understand from my point of view and the rest of the world Donbass is a Russian fantasy.
Don't tell that to the people fighting a very bloody civil war there.

Donbass becomes more real every day that this conflict continues. The best thing that Kiev can do here, is end the hostilities and start to care and govern these people. When their life gets better instead of worse, they will have no wish to return to Russia anymore.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on July 18, 2017, 02:47:03 PM
Please understand from my point of view and the rest of the world Donbass is a Russian fantasy.
Don't tell that to the people fighting a very bloody civil war there.

Donbass becomes more real every day that this conflict continues. The best thing that Kiev can do here, is end the hostilities and start to care and govern these people. When their life gets better instead of worse, they will have no wish to return to Russia anymore.

Can I remind you Kiev is the capital of Ukraine.

The actions of Russia have done more to polarize opinion and feeling in Ukraine than anything else. The leaders in Kiev are not going to allow any centimeter of land to be occupied by Russia any time soon.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on July 18, 2017, 03:24:49 PM
Please understand from my point of view and the rest of the world Donbass is a Russian fantasy.
Don't tell that to the people fighting a very bloody civil war there.

Donbass becomes more real every day that this conflict continues. The best thing that Kiev can do here, is end the hostilities and start to care and govern these people. When their life gets better instead of worse, they will have no wish to return to Russia anymore.

Can I remind you Kiev is the capital of Ukraine.

The actions of Russia have done more to polarize opinion and feeling in Ukraine than anything else. The leaders in Kiev are not going to allow any centimeter of land to be occupied by Russia any time soon.

Unfortunately due to endemic corruption and very bad choices by Kiev they may have also lost Donbas forever.

Let's hope this is the end of it and they can someday get back to being peaceful neighbors.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on July 18, 2017, 03:48:07 PM
Please understand from my point of view and the rest of the world Donbass is a Russian fantasy.
Don't tell that to the people fighting a very bloody civil war there.

Donbass becomes more real every day that this conflict continues. The best thing that Kiev can do here, is end the hostilities and start to care and govern these people. When their life gets better instead of worse, they will have no wish to return to Russia anymore.

Can I remind you Kiev is the capital of Ukraine.
Yes, thats why I wrote Kiev.

Although Russia is poking its nose in Donbass, they won't get a single foot on the ground if Kiev did its job with good governing of its people.

However, because of their actions , the donbass region had to start a civil war and attempt break away to get rid of their leadership. Loyal counties don't do that, disgruntled counties don't do that, it has to be very, very, very bad to even start such a thing.

I don't know if/how/when Russia helped them, but its still 90%+ the people in Donbass first, without their support they would re-integrate in Ukraine sooner rather than later.

There's tons of pictures of shelled civilians by the kiev administration and 0 of the rebels bombing their own.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on July 30, 2017, 01:30:33 PM


Democracy, rule of law thrown under bus by Ukraine dictator Poroshenko

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_597b3799e4b0c69ef7052757
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on August 07, 2017, 10:12:21 PM
Significant Accomplishment': US Starts Building Major Naval Facility in Ukraine

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201708071056259724-us-naval-canter-ukraine/

Mattis is a strategic genius. Leave Western Europe to their own demise and gain control of Eastern Europe. I smell a Ford Class Carrier in that port within 2 years.

More likely a Boston Whaler. It seems to be in an area of shallow water. It is though the confluence of the Southern Bug and Dnieper into the Black Sea.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: rw_recruiter on August 07, 2017, 11:22:05 PM
Significant Accomplishment': US Starts Building Major Naval Facility in Ukraine

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201708071056259724-us-naval-canter-ukraine/

Mattis is a strategic genius. Leave Western Europe to their own demise and gain control of Eastern Europe. I smell a Ford Class Carrier in that port within 2 years.

More likely a Boston Whaler. It seems to be in an area of shallow water. It is though the confluence of the Southern Bug and Dnieper into the Black Sea.

Not that shallow. There is a 114 footer docked in the commercial port next door.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/index/ships/range/port_id:18504/port_name:OCHAKOV (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/index/ships/range/port_id:18504/port_name:OCHAKOV)

But yes, the draft on a Ford Class is about double that. There is a small airport at the military port as well though.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on August 08, 2017, 03:47:51 AM
Significant Accomplishment': US Starts Building Major Naval Facility in Ukraine

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201708071056259724-us-naval-canter-ukraine/

Mattis is a strategic genius. Leave Western Europe to their own demise and gain control of Eastern Europe. I smell a Ford Class Carrier in that port within 2 years.

More likely a Boston Whaler. It seems to be in an area of shallow water. It is though the confluence of the Southern Bug and Dnieper into the Black Sea.

Not that shallow. There is a 114 footer docked in the commercial port next door.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/index/ships/range/port_id:18504/port_name:OCHAKOV (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/index/ships/range/port_id:18504/port_name:OCHAKOV)

But yes, the draft on a Ford Class is about double that. There is a small airport at the military port as well though.

Cool website :thumbsup:

The Optimaflot while long is in fact designed for rivers. Thus the narrow beam, draft is 3.5 meters according to the web site.

By way of reference a so-called supper tanker is over 300 meters long on the waterline and has a draft of 20 meters. Basically longer than the height of the Eiffel Tower.

(For land lubbers beam is width and draft how deep in the water a vessel is.)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on August 08, 2017, 06:04:25 AM
Significant Accomplishment': US Starts Building Major Naval Facility in Ukraine

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201708071056259724-us-naval-canter-ukraine/
Ah, so the USA is building a major communications/operations hub on a stones-throw of Sevastopol.

How is this not American Agression.....
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on August 08, 2017, 06:12:00 AM
Significant Accomplishment': US Starts Building Major Naval Facility in Ukraine

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201708071056259724-us-naval-canter-ukraine/
Ah, so the USA is building a major communications/operations hub on a stones-throw of Sevastopol.

How is this not American Agression.....

Not withstanding what is written by Sputnik I sort of doubt the American military are building much of anything along the shores of the Black Sea. Foreign military ships on the Black Sea may only remain there for I think a week and I think foreign military bases are prohibited by the same treaty.

EDIT: I checked the Montreux Treaty and a large foreign military vessel is forbidden passage through the Bosphorus. Further Turkey has the right and has executed it to close the Bosphorus to foreign vessels during times of conflict.

What I do suspect is that military equipment is being sold, lended or leased to Ukraine. And instead of using the Odessa ports they are landing the material at Ochakov. In the what it is worth department I suspect the photo being used is highly altered. Using Google Earth it seems the surrounding waters are indeed shallow. Further I can not find the building that RW noted on his link. There are in fact three harbours, two of which are man made. There are some good beaches around though. Time to chill and work on your sun tan?


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on August 17, 2017, 03:10:54 AM
Saboteurs Are Being Trained By CIA To Be Sent To Crimea And Donbass

http://www.globalresearch.ca/saboteurs-are-being-trained-by-cia-to-be-sent-to-crimea-and-donbass/5604398

Saboteurs better hope that the police catch them and not the locals in Crimea  :-\
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on August 17, 2017, 04:00:31 AM
Saboteurs Are Being Trained By CIA To Be Sent To Crimea And Donbass



Just more fake news because some of you guys will believe anything.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: rw_recruiter on August 17, 2017, 09:33:35 AM
Saboteurs Are Being Trained By CIA To Be Sent To Crimea And Donbass



Just more fake news because some of you guys will believe anything.

The CIA part is fake I am sure, but they just caught a guy in Crimea trying to disable the electrical grid.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2d_1502786484 (https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2d_1502786484)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on August 17, 2017, 04:34:43 PM
Saboteurs Are Being Trained By CIA To Be Sent To Crimea And Donbass



Just more fake news because some of you guys will believe anything.

The CIA part is fake I am sure, but they just caught a guy in Crimea trying to disable the electrical grid.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2d_1502786484 (https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2d_1502786484)



Here's a link to the CIA, article in it there is a link to download documents
That might be of interest to you. :)

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/cia-rdp81-01043r002300220007-1

From a 2016.

RUSSIA CLAIMS TO HAVE DETAINED UKRAINIAN SPY TRAINED BY CIA

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-claims-detain-cia-trained-ukrainian-spy-442672
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on August 17, 2017, 10:20:08 PM
Yet buying cheaper gas from Russia is not an option.


Ukraine's Trade With Russia Is Rapidly Increasing

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-trade-russia-rapidly-increasing/ri20699

Russia is not paying transit fees and will not let Ukraine have short term gas contract so Ukraine is buying gas from other countries this year in hopes to stop buying gas from Russian origin next year.  Since Russia has far more gas than will ever be sold this unsold gas will remain in the ground forever. The transit fees were usually paid in terms of a gas discount. Ukraine no longer gets discount and Russia no longer sell gas. Ukraine economy is picking up and it is increasingly buying more products from nearly every trading partner.  Russian gas companies are not on the list of increased sales. Since gas has no pumping cost and no one here seems to want to consider the deprecation of the wells in though terms the gas is almost free to Russia. Russia losses big again and that is why all this complaining.

Poland wanted to remove monuments about Russian victories in WW2 and was threaten by Russia. This is what I call internal interference where it does not even matter. Maybe if Russia keeps this up they will lose sales to Poland also one day.   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 24, 2017, 11:05:09 AM
Gee Is Putin going to give up on Donbas? He is going to lose not because of any bodies army but because the place is depopulating. So now he is considering UN peace keepers. It seems to me like the first step to the end of Russian control of the region.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-germany/ukraine-gives-cautious-welcome-to-putins-peacekeepers-offer-idUSKCN1BP1YM
As said before, Russia never wanted the region, fairly early in this conflict, putin out-right said so and maintained that stance ever since (officially)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on September 24, 2017, 07:42:18 PM
Russia official position and realities on the ground are sometimes very different. Russia ruin the lives of millions of people in Donbas just so the could ruin the lives of the rest of the Ukraine by spreading poverty where ever they could in the country with this war they officially were never in. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 25, 2017, 12:49:05 AM

As said before, Russia never wanted the region, fairly early in this conflict, putin out-right said so and maintained that stance ever since (officially)

Hmm, perhaps you are even right - *I* think the plan was the usual create unrest - followed by frozen conflict - followed by issuing RU passports - having made the region dependent on Moscow - breaking the umbilical cord to the nation with which a region is an internationalised recognised part - and ultimately absorb quietly - to the extent of pretending it is a different country. 

The model worked, already

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 25, 2017, 01:07:17 AM
Russia official position and realities on the ground are sometimes very different. Russia ruin the lives of millions of people in Donbas just so the could ruin the lives of the rest of the Ukraine by spreading poverty where ever they could in the country with this war they officially were never in.
You mean Poroshenko does a good job there.

No need to involve putin, he is stellar in making his country hurt all by himself.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 25, 2017, 01:09:36 AM

You mean Poroshenko does a good job there.

No need to involve putin, he is stellar in making his country hurt all by himself.

A classic peace of deflection ... bit like blaming the Dutch govt in exile for allowing the Germans to run the Netherlands
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 25, 2017, 01:14:28 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/24/ukraine-will-break-unless-government-fights-corruption-saakashvili/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/24/ukraine-will-break-unless-government-fights-corruption-saakashvili/)

It seems the old University chums Poroshenko and Saakashvili's chances of a kiss and make-up are off the cards ..

"Ukraine will break up unless government fights corruption, Saakashvili warns"



Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 27, 2017, 01:09:57 AM

You mean Poroshenko does a good job there.

No need to involve putin, he is stellar in making his country hurt all by himself.

A classic peace of deflection ... bit like blaming the Dutch govt in exile for allowing the Germans to run the Netherlands
A godwin, really ?  :o

Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine and no foreign country is at war with him. He is choosing a civilian war all by himself, noone is forcing him. I

Dutch gov't in WW-II was on a nazi-hitlist, they had to fear for their lives. The german military controlled much of the country and population with weapons.

Apples and Oranges.

If Porky pig had taken better care for his people (You know, the civilians in Donbass) , they wouldn't have wanted to seperate and all the other stuff goes away. Its not too late to actually start doing that. Poroshenko is also blocking any minsk-agreement and not living up to his side of the resolution whilst Donbass has done their part.

Beware, some images of dead russian military below.

[Pics of dead people removed]

Need I go on? there is literally hundreds of these all over the internet.

Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

I would welcome these refugees, as they are REALLY fleeing a war... but they haven't flocked to Europe, they fled to Russia!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 27, 2017, 01:59:40 AM



Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine

 No he isn't ..esp the parts where the Russian army is either openly ( Crimea) or parts of Donbas where they helped out and they won't admit it and you can't ...

The analogy re 'blame' was spot-on.. 

If Porky pig had taken better care for his people (You know, the civilians in Donbass) , they wouldn't have wanted to seperate and all the other stuff goes away. Its not too late to actually start doing that. Poroshenko is also blocking any minsk-agreement and not living up to his side of the resolution whilst Donbass has done their part.

1/ Was Poroshenko leader when Moscow was spreading the seeds of discontent ? ...No ( Remembering it is illegal to do the same in Russia-  but 'ok' to do it in neighbouring nations )

2/ Indeed they are his people - you got THAT part right ..  You would be aware of the make up of the population before and why I certainly don't believe any 'referendum' result from there.  You should check out the peoples' feelings from places that were liberated from the 'separatists' ..Sloviyansk being a good example...

3/ Both Kiev and Moscow are breaking Minsk 2 agreements - don't you read the daily reports from the Observers ?

Beware, some images of dead russian military below.

You post pictures of dead civilians - YES - we know - innocents are losing their lives... for a war they didn't ask for and mostly they don't care who rules them - as long as they can live safely ..

Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Ukraine has a habit of removing unpopular leaders - don't worry ....

Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..

I would welcome these refugees, as they are REALLY fleeing a war... but they haven't flocked to Europe, they fled to Russia!

Many wise folks got out before the sh!t hit the fan ..settling in Kiev, Odesa, and areas in Donbas where the govt still exercises control .... They weren't welcome and got the hint - such was the bully boy tactics employed ... 'Sorry' to introduce a little reality into your one-sided tale.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 27, 2017, 09:14:26 AM

Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine

No he isn't ..esp the parts where the Russian army is either openly ( Crimea)

Crimea is Russia. Buy a new atlas.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 27, 2017, 10:39:25 AM


Crimea is Russia. Buy a new atlas.

I'll pop down to Waterstone's to check your advice ;)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 27, 2017, 01:58:38 PM
Quote
Poroshenko is in control of Ukraine

 No he isn't ..esp the parts where the Russian army is either openly ( Crimea) or parts of Donbas where they helped out and they won't admit it and you can't ...

The analogy re 'blame' was spot-on.. 
No it wasn't. And if you fail to see that, there is nothing more to say.

Quote
1/ Was Poroshenko leader when Moscow was spreading the seeds of discontent ? ...No ( Remembering it is illegal to do the same in Russia-  but 'ok' to do it in neighbouring nations )
Who is exactly spreading seeds? I would think that Kiev with its out-of-touch leadership was. Malcontent needs feeding grounds, all Russia could do was encourage what is already there.

Quote
2/ Indeed they are his people - you got THAT part right ..  You would be aware of the make up of the population before and why I certainly don't believe any 'referendum' result from there.  You should check out the peoples' feelings from places that were liberated from the 'separatists' ..Sloviyansk being a good example...

3/ Both Kiev and Moscow are breaking Minsk 2 agreements - don't you read the daily reports from the Observers ?
As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

Quote
Beware, some images of dead russian military below.

You post pictures of dead civilians - YES - we know - innocents are losing their lives... for a war they didn't ask for and mostly they don't care who rules them - as long as they can live safely ..
You might want to ask people in Donbass that, they want this situation or theyd have kicked out Zakarchenko long ago.
Quote
Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Ukraine has a habit of removing unpopular leaders - don't worry ....
Yes, the only thing we agree on.
Quote
Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this? Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Quote
Many wise folks got out before the sh!t hit the fan ..settling in Kiev, Odesa, and areas in Donbas where the govt still exercises control .... They weren't welcome and got the hint - such was the bully boy tactics employed ... 'Sorry' to introduce a little reality into your one-sided tale.
Right, where are the numbers? Oh thats right, there aren't any that you believe. Especially not the 1.000.000+ that fled to Russia instead. The ones fleeing towards kiev's regime isn't even half that.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on September 27, 2017, 06:42:19 PM
I don't see how Ukraine expects the United states, Canada and others to supply weapons when they can't secure the ones that they already have?

Thousands flee huge 'sabotage' explosion at Ukraine arms depot

https://www.yahoo.com/news/thousands-evacuated-ukraine-arms-depot-sabotage-blasts-094622513.html
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 28, 2017, 02:47:24 AM

No it wasn't. And if you fail to see that, there is nothing more to say.

A bit like 'no shots fired' in Crimea ...  you will continue to delude yourself .. but not others

Quote from: moby
1/ Was Poroshenko leader when Moscow was spreading the seeds of discontent ? ...No ( Remembering it is illegal to do the same in Russia-  but 'ok' to do it in neighbouring nations )

Who is exactly spreading seeds? I would think that Kiev with its out-of-touch leadership was. Malcontent needs feeding grounds, all Russia could do was encourage what is already there.

You missed 'anti-maidan' ... ?!     The 'Nazi protesters' - how bizarre .... the fear / uncertainty was being pushed when it was clear the writing was on the wall for Yanu' .....       You DO have a short memory ...    Me posting UN hum rights reports warning of polarisation and risk of civil violence on a massive scale...

 

Quote from: moby
2/ Indeed they are his people - you got THAT part right ..  You would be aware of the make up of the population before and why I certainly don't believe any 'referendum' result from there.  You should check out the peoples' feelings from places that were liberated from the 'separatists' ..Sloviyansk being a good example...

3/ Both Kiev and Moscow are breaking Minsk 2 agreements - don't you read the daily reports from the Observers ?

As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

THANKS - for demonstrating your 'knowledge' of Minsk-2..

Meanwhile in the real world military kit - that can only be from Russia - apparently keeps appearing in the field - and the presence is denied by those seen using it. .... What that the sort of encouragement you mean ?

I'm not in favour of the west giving UA legal arms, btw . It will result in an upsurge of casualties and Russia will simply send in more men and kit - like August 2015 and acquire more UA territory.

Beware, some images of dead russian military below.


Quote from: moby
You post pictures of dead civilians - YES - we know - innocents are losing their lives... for a war they didn't ask for and mostly they don't care who rules them - as long as they can live safely ..


Quote from: markje
You might want to ask people in Donbass that, they want this situation or theyd have kicked out Zakarchenko long ago.

YOU need to talk to the some of the people who fled.... to 'rump' Ukraine and even Russia ...  Our region is run by bandits on the behest of 'business-men'...

Poroshenko should be removed from office, and sooner rather than later.

Quote from: moby
Ukraine has a habit of removing unpopular leaders - don't worry ....

Quote from: Markje
Yes, the only thing we agree on.

I've noted quite a few changes in who runs the shows in the 'separatist areas' - why haven't you ?


Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.

Quote from: Moby
Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..

Quote from: Markje
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this?

Let's think...?  Constant undermining of the - overall in Ukraine - decision to have closer ties with Europe - whilst - originally - not wishing to lose 'em with Moscow and certainly no dream to join NATO ....     Now the population is polarised with starkly differing expectations and even killing each other...  that's why the next quote of yours is somewhat ironic ...

Quote from: Markje
Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.

There is no doubt that in fighting the 'separatists' that Kiev is killing innocents - just as the 'separatists' were doing ... So often old folk who just can't move and get caught in the cross-fire .... Let's not do the 'propaganda bollox' ....   Both sides have been criticised -and rightly so.  What is a joke is Moscow talks about the 'killing civilians' and 'right of self-determination ' whilst having done EXACTLY that in a 'part' of Russia that hadn't even agreed to BE part of Russia and bans any media discussion of self-determination - leaving the R.F.   THAT's what is SO galling ....

Yet here you are - blind to the irony ....

Quote from: Markje
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Not that you will read the 'games' going on in the 'separatist' controlled parts of Donbas.... 


Quote from: moby
Many wise folks got out before the sh!t hit the fan ..settling in Kiev, Odesa, and areas in Donbas where the govt still exercises control .... They weren't welcome and got the hint - such was the bully boy tactics employed ... 'Sorry' to introduce a little reality into your one-sided tale.

Quote from: Markje
Right, where are the numbers? Oh thats right, there aren't any that you believe. Especially not the 1.000.000+ that fled to Russia instead. The ones fleeing towards kiev's regime isn't even half that.

...How do you know that your 'numbers' are accurate - when there is so much bollox being printed as propaganda by both sides?

FACT: prior to the 2014 violence - what was the ethnic makeup in Donbas - where were there constituencies that were eth Russian in majority ?

Why don't you want to believe the opinions of the democratically elected members of the Party of Regions who objected to the 'separatists' and when stripping down the 'flags' of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' - disappear - to be found murdered ?

I know folks from Donbas and Lugansk .... some fled to Russia - some to other parts of Ukraine - or further afield WAY before this really kicked off  -they saw what was coming

Why did you not quote my asking you about what folks think in 'liberated' parts of Ukraine - run for a time by 'separatists' back under Kiev control ... ?

VERY telling ......


Hint: Sloyiyansk was a key town and if you read some reports Kiev was shelling residents...  when the 'truth' - according to Kiev -  was somewhat different ....  the 'rebels' fired OUT from flats - inviting incoming fire - moving on they fired OUT from Schools and Hospitals ...

On RU tv much was made of the plight of the residents - who are now -seemingly - living quite peaceably - and western journos have free access.


There was no need for this conflict ... it was stirred up by the actions of both East and West - but comments like "The people of Novorossiya have a right to self determination" by a President who partook in the overseeing of the flattening of a city in Russia who sought such freedoms - and bans talk  of such things within Russia ...whilst encouraging the world to look at Kiev's 'wrongs' - don't you see ANY irony ?




 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Manny on September 28, 2017, 10:53:39 AM


Crimea is Russia. Buy a new atlas.

I'll pop down to Waterstone's to check your advice ;)

I'd check a Russian one if I were you.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 28, 2017, 02:41:13 PM

I'd check a Russian one if I were you.

Turkey has 'The Republic of Northern Cyprus' on their maps ....   35 years after it was declared into 'existence' ...and ?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on September 28, 2017, 03:35:13 PM

No it wasn't. And if you fail to see that, there is nothing more to say.

A bit like 'no shots fired' in Crimea ...  you will continue to delude yourself .. but not others
Right, you're deluded so I can't even respond to the rest without a huge caveat emptor, the reply is from deluded you.

On a scale of say, 0 to 20.000 (thats not much) how many casualties were directly related to the Crimean release from Ukraine?
Where 0 = no casualties and 20.000 = 20.000 casualties.
You'd be hard pressed to get to even 1 promille. (20 people). I call such a thing no shots fired, but you seem to want to take all literally when everybody else gets the true meaning of the words.

I chose 20.000 as that would mean 10.000 Russian troops (you said that was the max under Ukraine/Russia's lease agreement) and 10.000 from the other side.


Quote from: moby
You missed 'anti-maidan' ... ?!     The 'Nazi protesters' - how bizarre .... the fear / uncertainty was being pushed when it was clear the writing was on the wall for Yanu' .....       You DO have a short memory ...    Me posting UN hum rights reports warning of polarisation and risk of civil violence on a massive scale...
The nazi's were very real, that you put them inside quotation marks again show how deluded you were. In fact, the whole fascism angle is why Crimea decided to quit Ukraine in the first place. (Before joining Russia on a referendum later)

Quote from: moby
As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

THANKS - for demonstrating your 'knowledge' of Minsk-2..
Debated before... Andrew quite nicely nipped these kinds of replies in the butt. You are talking nonsense again.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11408266/Minsk-agreement-on-Ukraine-crisis-text-in-full.html
Kindly point me to where Putin's responsibilities are.
Quote
Meanwhile in the real world military kit - that can only be from Russia - apparently keeps appearing in the field - and the presence is denied by those seen using it. .... What that the sort of encouragement you mean ?
Yet never photographed in this high-camera-presence world.
I got youtube vids and photo's of all asteroids , strange UFO's and other crap in Russia, but not these mysterious forces you keep talking of.
Quote
I'm not in favour of the west giving UA legal arms, btw . It will result in an upsurge of casualties and Russia will simply send in more men and kit - like August 2015 and acquire more UA territory.
No it won't , there will simply be more blown up army bases on the Ukrainian side.


Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.
No response? typical. You must find it 100% approved that Porky is shooting civilians, not even as collateral damage but straight shooting at civilian buildings with mortars and other heavy weaponry.


Quote from: Moby
Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..
Ah yeah that was the reply to above.... sad.

Quote
Quote from: Markje
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this?

Let's think...?  Constant undermining of the - overall in Ukraine - decision to have closer ties with Europe - whilst - originally - not wishing to lose 'em with Moscow and certainly no dream to join NATO ....     Now the population is polarised with starkly differing expectations and even killing each other...  that's why the next quote of yours is somewhat ironic ...
Riiiiight. Perhaps I need to quote someone: Please put down the wine and talk some sense. This makes no sense at all. Russia isn't killing any civilians. Nowhere.  And Ukraine is free to do as it wish, but it was always a deeply divided east/west country. They ignored that and guess what happened.

Quote
Quote from: Markje
Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.

There is no doubt that in fighting the 'separatists' that Kiev is killing innocents - just as the 'separatists' were doing ... So often old folk who just can't move and get caught in the cross-fire .... Let's not do the 'propaganda bollox' ....   Both sides have been criticised -and rightly so.  What is a joke is Moscow talks about the 'killing civilians' and 'right of self-determination ' whilst having done EXACTLY that in a 'part' of Russia that hadn't even agreed to BE part of Russia and bans any media discussion of self-determination - leaving the R.F.   THAT's what is SO galling ....
You call firing mortars into civilian buildings because maybe there are separatists there propaganda? Thanks for showing your true colors.
Quote
Yet here you are - blind to the irony ....
No, i see real human suffering and real dead people. You apparently only see Russian soldiers everywhere.

Quote
Quote from: Markje
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Not that you will read the 'games' going on in the 'separatist' controlled parts of Donbas.... 
No need to , they are in the doghouse just like the rest of Ukraine. Why is it suddenly not part of Ukraine? Why on earth do you suddenly switch to it being a separate area?

Quote
...How do you know that your 'numbers' are accurate - when there is so much bollox being printed as propaganda by both sides?
Because the facts line up. Russia's population grew 1million people over night. Where did you think those came from?


Quote
I know folks from Donbas and Lugansk .... some fled to Russia - some to other parts of Ukraine - or further afield WAY before this really kicked off  -they saw what was coming
Right. My uncle's nephew who's friends housekeeper had a son that lived in poland whom had a girlfriend from Ukraine who's grandmama lived in donbass.
Something like that?
I know someone from Donbass too, he's living in Evpatoria, he talked about the organization of fleeing people and how the Russians did it. Counting busses with 50 people, the quota for each city etc. etc. adding up the numbers makes me come to a million.... just like reported in the news.
Quote
Why did you not quote my asking you about what folks think in 'liberated' parts of Ukraine - run for a time by 'separatists' back under Kiev control ... ?

VERY telling ......
Yes, very.... I am not answering any questions that you think are smart but in fact, aren't.


Quote
Hint: Sloyiyansk was a key town and if you read some reports Kiev was shelling residents...  when the 'truth' - according to Kiev -  was somewhat different ....  the 'rebels' fired OUT from flats - inviting incoming fire - moving on they fired OUT from Schools and Hospitals ...

On RU tv much was made of the plight of the residents - who are now -seemingly - living quite peaceably - and western journos have free access.
Ah right.... again those poor people from Kiev, shooting with mortars at buildings because they said someone is shooting from them. No that won't invite any collateral damage at all  :sick0012:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: msmoby on September 28, 2017, 04:56:19 PM

On a scale of say, 0 to 20.000 (thats not much) how many casualties were directly related to the Crimean release from Ukraine?
Where 0 = no casualties and 20.000 = 20.000 casualties.
You'd be hard pressed to get to even 1 promille. (20 people). I call such a thing no shots fired, but you seem to want to take all literally when everybody else gets the true meaning of the words.

We can't answer you questions - such is the control in Crimea - no UN Human Rights investigators allowed - and I'm not even 'allowed' to point out the existence of the report just being published - on here - 'worrying'...  ( the REAL reason I'm on the 'naughty step' )

I chose 20.000 as that would mean 10.000 Russian troops (you said that was the max under Ukraine/Russia's lease agreement) and 10.000 from the other side.

Such was the surprise - and orders from Kiev - NOT to fire / fire back  - knowing it could never win against the more than 24- 30 k RU personnel present on Crimea at the time of the coup, you mean ?


Quote from: moby
You missed 'anti-maidan' ... ?!     The 'Nazi protesters' - how bizarre .... the fear / uncertainty was being pushed when it was clear the writing was on the wall for Yanu' .....       You DO have a short memory ...    Me posting UN hum rights reports warning of polarisation and risk of civil violence on a massive scale...

The nazi's were very real, that you put them inside quotation marks again show how deluded you were. In fact, the whole fascism angle is why Crimea decided to quit Ukraine in the first place. (Before joining Russia on a referendum later) 

This would be funny - if people didn't die as a result of the polarisation stirred up by Moscow ( UN Human Rights report - Feb 2014)


As moscow has no obligations under Minsk two, other than try to encourage the DPR, thats laughable.

Quote from: moby
THANKS - for demonstrating your 'knowledge' of Minsk-2..

Debated before...

'Debated' ? ..Hmm If only that were true ... you are protected by 'moderation'

Andrew quite nicely nipped these kinds of replies in the butt. You are talking nonsense again.


You mean the guy who wouldn't recognise most of Russia / Ukraine if he were dropped in ?  He also needs protecting by 'moderation' ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11408266/Minsk-agreement-on-Ukraine-crisis-text-in-full.html
Kindly point me to where Putin's responsibilities are.

EASY ... "Restore full control over the state border by Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group."

I told you to read the daily reports from the military observers - who point out the 'help' Russia has been re accessing the 'separatist border ' zones where it is suspected military hardware arrives / departs ...

Quote from: moby
Meanwhile in the real world military kit - that can only be from Russia - apparently keeps appearing in the field - and the presence is denied by those seen using it. .... Whatas that the sort of encouragement you mean ?

Yet never photographed in this high-camera-presence world.
I got youtube vids and photo's of all asteroids , strange UFO's and other crap in Russia, but not these mysterious forces you keep talking of.

Once again - you 'read selectively' ... When thy are published - you'll claim 'photoshopped' or some other 'excuse' .. Russian social media sites kindly produced the sort of images you seek to deny ... those living on the Russian side took photos  / videos of hardware heading towards the 'new front' in Mariupol - which could - by the very nature of territory held - have arrived in August 2015 from Russia.....  The same hardware was videoed in Ukraine ..In this day and age - it's hard to cover up such movements.

Quote from: moby
I'm not in favour of the west giving UA legal arms, btw . It will result in an upsurge of casualties and Russia will simply send in more men and kit - like August 2015 and acquire more UA territory.

No it won't , there will simply be more blown up army bases on the Ukrainian side.

Really daft response - more people would die on both sides - they're still dying


Where's the western outcry over this? Oh yeah thats right, we signed an association agreement and visa-free travel.
No response? typical. You must find it 100% approved that Porky is shooting civilians, not even as collateral damage but straight shooting at civilian buildings with mortars and other heavy weaponry.


Quote from: Moby
Probably the biggest FU to Moscow that the EU was capable of .. ? I know the news in Russia is all about how bad things are in Ukraine ..
Ah yeah that was the reply to above.... sad.

? You know I responded - appropriately re civilian casualties - on both sides


Quote from: Markje
Why would the EU want to send a FU to Moscow over this?

Quote from: moby


Let's think...?  Constant undermining of the - overall in Ukraine - decision to have closer ties with Europe - whilst - originally - not wishing to lose 'em with Moscow and certainly no dream to join NATO ....     Now the population is polarised with starkly differing expectations and even killing each other...  that's why the next quote of yours is somewhat ironic ...

Riiiiight. Perhaps I need to quote someone: Please put down the wine

Don't do an andrewfi when you can't offer up a factual response ... I haven't drunk wine for 10 days, had one pint of beer in same time ... no spirits, no substances ....

This makes no sense at all. Russia isn't killing any civilians. Nowhere.  And Ukraine is free to do as it wish, but it was always a deeply divided east/west country. They ignored that and guess what happened.

It's been killing in Ukraine and Syria ....  Russian troops' on leave' who just happen to die and get buried and Mammas wondering how they ended up in Ukraine ?   

Quote from: Markje
Its Kiev thats killing its own civilians.

Quote from: moby
There is no doubt that in fighting the 'separatists' that Kiev is killing innocents - just as the 'separatists' were doing ... So often old folk who just can't move and get caught in the cross-fire .... Let's not do the 'propaganda bollox' ....   Both sides have been criticised -and rightly so.  What is a joke is Moscow talks about the 'killing civilians' and 'right of self-determination ' whilst having done EXACTLY that in a 'part' of Russia that hadn't even agreed to BE part of Russia and bans any media discussion of self-determination - leaving the R.F.   THAT's what is SO galling ....

You call firing mortars into civilian buildings because maybe there are separatists there propaganda? Thanks for showing your true colors.

Like in Sloviyansk - were it transpired the civilians were moved out, first?  - it was a show... you bought it ..  My 'true colours' are horror of war in general and particularly when both or either side pretends only the 'other side' kills civilians ...

It is noted you failed to deal with the double standards of how Russia dealt with separatists....

Hence
Quote from: moby
Yet here you are - blind to the irony ....

Was bang on ..

No, i see real human suffering and real dead people. You apparently only see Russian soldiers everywhere.

I said Russian military helped out - esp in Aug / Sept 2015 - when Kiev had just about surrounded Donetsk and Lugansk - and GRU troops set off the insurrection in E.Ukraine and Crimea..  I'm sure very few trained soldiers want to or would kill civilians -


Quote from: Markje
Ah and how bad things are in Ukraine, one needs only to check the news once a week or so... There is some real economic disaster going on outside the whole Donbass FU.

Quote from: moby
Not that you will read the 'games' going on in the 'separatist' controlled parts of Donbas.... 

No need to , they are in the doghouse just like the rest of Ukraine. Why is it suddenly not part of Ukraine? Why on earth do you suddenly switch to it being a separate area?


??  Donbas is an oblast of Ukraine ... you're doing it, again ... I said 'separatist' controlled... Why deflect from the question - there is much corruption and 'nationalising' of assets of Oligarchs that is hardly 'political' ... more like old scores / rivalries being settled ....

Quote from: moby
...How do you know that your 'numbers' are accurate - when there is so much bollox being printed as propaganda by both sides?

Because the facts line up. Russia's population grew 1million people over night. Where did you think those came from?


May be Euronews is misquoting UN estimates ? As I said - MANY people left Donbas when there were violent marches / demonstrations and intimidation - this was from April 2015 - Probably more headed to Russia in the next 3 months when Kiev was 'winning'

http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/22/ukraine-crisis-has-created-more-than-2-million-refugees-un-reports (http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/22/ukraine-crisis-has-created-more-than-2-million-refugees-un-reports)



Quote from: moby
I know folks from Donbas and Lugansk .... some fled to Russia - some to other parts of Ukraine - or further afield WAY before this really kicked off  -they saw what was coming

Right. My uncle's nephew who's friends housekeeper had a son that lived in poland whom had a girlfriend from Ukraine who's grandmama lived in donbass.
Something like that?

Much more precise ...  Remember, I have been there.. dated .. watched footies .. got to know folks ... their teenage kids who might have gone to Crimea, Russia or Odesa / Kiev - real people who are still my friends on RU social media sites or FB .. Those that stayed regaled the shelling - and intimidation. 'Fear of Nazis' ... same bollox as Crimea - Two of the families moved to Sochi - Mum being a doctor - she didn't want to go back to quote, "corrupt people running my city into the ground- I trust no-one" ...

I know someone from Donbass too, he's living in Evpatoria, he talked about the organization of fleeing people and how the Russians did it. Counting busses with 50 people, the quota for each city etc. etc. adding up the numbers makes me come to a million.... just like reported in the news.

'Sorry', but how can we trust 'info' when the UN / observers can't verify ?
Quote from: moby

Why did you not quote my asking you about what folks think in 'liberated' parts of Ukraine - run for a time by 'separatists' back under Kiev control ... ?

VERY telling ......

Yes, very.... I am not answering any questions that you think are smart but in fact, aren't.

Look, Markje - journos from all over the world have unfettered access to Sloviyansk .....  you are like a child - putting your fingers in your ears when you don't want to hear - what doesn't suit ....  Newsflash - unlike you - I realise that there is no right and wrong ( black or white) good or bad guys ... Some folks in Sloviyansk saw your 'good guys' take folks down into cellars and following 'interrogation' were never seen again ...  I certainly didn't believe Nadia Savchenko disguised herself and headed east - into Russia - when her helicopter was shot down - nor would I want to share a beer with someone feeling the need to join the 'Azov Battalion' ... I go to Russia - proper - Russian people aren't 'bad' ..... War makes kind people do crazy things...


Quote from: moby
Hint: Sloyiyansk was a key town and if you read some reports Kiev was shelling residents...  when the 'truth' - according to Kiev -  was somewhat different ....  the 'rebels' fired OUT from flats - inviting incoming fire - moving on they fired OUT from Schools and Hospitals ...

On RU tv much was made of the plight of the residents - who are now -seemingly - living quite peaceably - and western journos have free access.

Ah right.... again those poor people from Kiev, shooting with mortars at buildings because they said someone is shooting from them. No that won't invite any collateral damage at all  :sick0012:

Hardly, the 'separatists' moved the civilians out - before firing out .... Most of 'em didn't seek to kill civilians, either...    I believe that ...   Firing motors or rockets near or in towns / cities / villages was done by both 'sides'.


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: TomT on October 07, 2017, 08:52:04 AM
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/2019-could-be-very-bad-year-ukraine-22567

At least in the short term, it costs less to steal natural gas than to buy it. It amazes me that Russia continues to give Ukraine this opportunity; it amazes me more that other gas suppliers think that they will actually get paid; it amazes me most of all that thieves believe that their thievery can continue forever.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on October 07, 2017, 09:19:52 AM
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/2019-could-be-very-bad-year-ukraine-22567

At least in the short term, it costs less to steal natural gas than to buy it. It amazes me that Russia continues to give Ukraine this opportunity; it amazes me more that other gas suppliers think that they will actually get paid; it amazes me most of all that thieves believe that their thievery can continue forever.



 As you know already, Ukraine is steeped in thievery and corruption so why not believe it can continue forever?
I just finished reading an article about hackers that had taken over 100 million dollars. German and American authorities spent a few years investigating, with Ukrainian police busted the hackers, only to have the Ukrainian in charge free the suspected leader the next day.
Of course his whereabouts are unknown.
If you have enough money you can buy your way out of most anything in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dcguyusa on October 12, 2017, 06:39:26 PM
Movie hardman Steven Seagal banned from Ukraine as he’s deemed a ‘security threat’

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/celebrities-gone-bad/movie-hardman-steven-seagal-banned-from-ukraine-as-hes-deemed-a-security-threat/news-story/a3955760f24decd23b1426f027b39524
I am sure his top-notch martial arts skills make him a force to be reckon'd with.

Looks like he is being lumped together with Weinstein.

http://www.newsweek.com/steven-seagal-harvey-weinstein-sexual-harassment-lisa-guerrero-683684
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on October 19, 2017, 11:07:52 PM
20,000 Nazis March in Kiev. The Western Media Somehow Fails to Notice

http://russia-insider.com/en/20000-nazis-march-kiev-western-media-somehow-fails-notice/ri21294

Try like perhaps, maybe 2,000.

A few streets are closed off and there are police, more than normal in the area. Seeing that different interests protest on an almost daily basis in an around the Rada and Government buildings one can guess what is the agenda of the Russian Insider.  :pointlaugh:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Tom Cat on October 20, 2017, 08:33:10 AM
20,000 Nazis March in Kiev. The Western Media Somehow Fails to Notice

http://russia-insider.com/en/20000-nazis-march-kiev-western-media-somehow-fails-notice/ri21294

Try like perhaps, maybe 2,000.

A few streets are closed off and there are police, more than normal in the area. Seeing that different interests protest on an almost daily basis in an around the Rada and Government buildings one can guess what is the agenda of the Russian Insider.  :pointlaugh:



Watched a couple videos and I do doubt twenty thousand, but looked to be bit more than you suggest.
Protests like this would definitely be blamed on Trump if it took place in the United states.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on October 21, 2017, 02:19:59 PM
20,000 Nazis March in Kiev. The Western Media Somehow Fails to Notice

http://russia-insider.com/en/20000-nazis-march-kiev-western-media-somehow-fails-notice/ri21294

Try like perhaps, maybe 2,000.

A few streets are closed off and there are police, more than normal in the area. Seeing that different interests protest on an almost daily basis in an around the Rada and Government buildings one can guess what is the agenda of the Russian Insider.  :pointlaugh:

Watched a couple videos and I do doubt twenty thousand, but looked to be bit more than you suggest.
Protests like this would definitely be blamed on Trump if it took place in the United states.

Today, Saturday, went for a walk and we ended up at the Mariinsky Park, which is anchoured at one end by the Rada. It was almost surreal or dystopian, babushka's with there little dogs, Right Sector militia, and kids using Segway's. Opposite the Rada is a portion fenced off, occupied by those of the a Ukrainian Nationalist tint. Both ends are open and people make there way way through, lovers, and platoon's of Ukraine military, along with those hurrying some where else. Outside well organized are portable latrines, out would step a policeman in riot gear and than next to him would come some para military pimple faced kid from the Right Sector. You could see some one with an affiliation to Ukrainian nationalism, discussing matters with an Orthodox Father. Vendors were selling trinkets and there flowers and Ukraine flags for sale as well. Plus the snails (mobile coffee kiosks) selling espresso.

The fences were well guarded by the military posted every ten meters, but they were back to the fence. Some took foto's others went about there business. It seems there is no interest for the far right. For every Nationalist there were ten policeman and military milling about. Further away the police were controlling trucks before allowing them to get closer, which seems like an intelligent precaution.

It certainly is not a tense situation. In fact it was more Kafkaesque than anything sinister. 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on October 22, 2017, 10:30:36 AM
Poroshenko Vows Push To Create Anticorruption Court By Year's End
https://www.rferl.org/a/poroshenko-vows-push-create-anticorruption-court-by-yearend/28807413.html

I wonder what he is smokin?

Currently M. Martynenko an ex-lawmaker is under investigation for embezelling to the tune of 17 million. Presently two of the top of Ukraine's Defense Ministry are accused of corruption a mere 5.5 million. Presently a law is working its way through the Rada that will not prosecute the noted plus many others who are corrupt.

On another front it seems the water of the entire city of Kiev will be turned off (I doubt that will happen) but the water company has not paid the electric bill and diverted those funds too . . .

Yes there are numerous calls for reform, but the status qua of fraud, bribery and corruption is so deeply inbeded in society that I do not see a near term solution.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on March 23, 2018, 03:55:46 PM
U.S. Urges Russia To Free Jailed Ukrainian Pilot

Washington has called on Russia to immediately release Nadiya Savchenko, the Ukrainian pilot who was captured in eastern Ukraine and later handed over to Russia, where she is charged with killing two Russian journalists.
In a statement on October 29, Ban said the November 2 ballots in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions would breach the Ukrainian Constitution and national law.

read all about it here
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-russia-us-savchenko/26664997.html

Anyone care to guess where this woman is now?   :coffeeread:

http://russiafeed.com/from-russian-prison-to-ukrainian-jail-hero-of-ukraine-nadia-savchenko-arrested/
Quote
It’s out of the fire and into the frying pan for so-called Ukrainian ‘Joan of Arc’ Nadia Savchenko, who has just now been arrested by Ukraine, for allegedly planning a terrorist attack inside the parliament of which she is a member.

Heeheehee
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on October 12, 2020, 06:02:27 AM
Evidently, late last month, and into October there have been meetings between Russian and Ukraine officials as well as both V. Zelensky and V. Putin. It seems while the Minsk agreement is not the absolute framework it is providing for some sort of map for a resolution. My guess other factors such as the upcoming presidential election in the US and perhaps Russian internal dynamics are influencing this movement.

There have been so many false starts and hopes raised that I am now of the opinion time will tell. The actual 'cease fire' violations seems recently to be low.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Contrarian on October 29, 2020, 10:48:49 AM
Over the weekend elections for local officials and it seems some of the seats in the Rada were held. It seems turnout was low (I guess average). But part of the process were questions from (and paid by) Servant of the People party. The text is below.

Citizens were asked to answer the following five questions:

- Do you support the idea of life imprisonment for corruption on a particularly large scale?

- Do you support the creation of a free economic zone in Donetsk and Lugansk regions?

- Do you support a reduction in the number of Members of Parliament to 300?

- Do you support the legalization of marijuana for medical use, i.e. to reduce pain in critically ill patients?

- Do you support Ukraine's right to use the security guarantees stipulated in the Budapest Memorandum to restore its state sovereignty and territorial integrity?

From UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/society/osce-odihr-says-zelensky-s-poll-on-election-day-creates-undue-political-advantage-11195780.html

The questions give some indication of the thinking of President V Zelensky and perhaps by inference the direction he wants the country to move towards.

Compared to elections in Belarus it is refreshing.


Are you in Ukraine now?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on October 29, 2020, 10:52:08 AM
Are you in Ukraine now?

No, planning in December.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on April 10, 2021, 01:31:00 AM


I'm not too worried about Putin because we got our own problems at home but Putin accuses Ukraine of provocations in Ukraine. Sounds like a good reason to invade. Merkel doesn't think this mass mobilization is going to be a training exercise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-says-could-forced-protect-122250495.html

It appears Russia might be thinking of making east Ukraine part of Russia.  It has more to do with he needs some fake excuse to invade the Ukraine. What does a country do with outdated fifty year old military equipment to stop an Russian invasion? How does such a country cause Russia any problems. It does not.  He needs to do something with Donbas as almost no one lives there any more except a few old people. Over the next ten years they will die off and its population will collapse. If he makes Donbas part of Russia maybe someone will want to live there.

BUMP

The above is from another thread.

There seems to be a fair amount a saber rattling on both sides, but without doubt Russia has increased there military presence along the border.

Ukraine is moving slowly but surely towards NATO membership.

There is on the other front across Europe a capture and than expulsion of spies from Russia. Russia than kicks out 'diplomats' for attending a rally in support of A. Navalny.

In the end the control of the Donbass is becoming a nightmare for the end user.

And so the Great Game goes on.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on April 11, 2021, 12:41:00 PM

Russia and China wants more real estate. The question is when is the best time to get this real estate and it's best they do it at the same time. Both Russia and China has bribed Biden and family and have compromising video and photo evidence of their crimes. They expect Biden to be soft against anything they do.
Not entirely sure why posting in the relevant thread is such a challenge for some.

There is a serious build up of Russian military personal on the Ukrainian border. I still have a hard time seeing Putin launching a full scale invasion or even incursion into Ukraine. It seems the majority of Europe is fully behind at least with lip service Ukraine. Further the general Ukraine population is even more so today anti-Russian.

Putin has lost the ideological and emotional war for the Ukraine soul. Hopefully Russia has not forgotten the lessons of Afghanistan and I doubt they want the same scenario played out directly on there border.

The so-called Donbass is going to be a mega sink hole for the eventual party who gains control of the region.

 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on May 21, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
Not entirely sure where to post this, but this is as good as any thread.

A day ago Ukrainian President V. Zelensky was asked by a journalist if he thought V. Putin was a killer?

He replied "A hundred people may be killed in Donbas tomorrow because of your question. What would you do?... Goodbye."

For a former comedian he shows remarkable common sense as opposed to say the President of The United States.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Wiz on January 22, 2022, 05:33:19 AM
Cuffi..... I am surprised!

Obviously you wake up from a bad dream when you come to realise the actual international state of affairs....maybe by reading again the comments of Paul Craig Roberts!

Those Neoliberal fascists who are running your country.....do not understand that the Russians will have to protect their country again........from aggressive threatening Enemies. and of course have every right to do so........and I wonder, what are the benefits for USA and their NATO allies to fight Russia under any circumstances?

Wizz what are you bloody banging on about "Neoliberal fascists who are running your country" - Who the bloody phooking 'ell do you think is running YOUR lovely spots of the Earth both UK and EU/Greek?   The City of London Rothschild's of course - the Ultimate Zionists.

Rather than hurl Molotov cocktails at the USA Maidan style - research the City of London, the Rothschild's relationship to JP Morgan's London Bond dealing father - the folks who actually engineered the Fed in 1913 as part of their ongoing Zionist plot to rule the world by Subduing all the planet's Central Bank's including that of the last free people on the planet - the Moscow Rossiya and their independent Russian Banks and Central Bank not owned Fed style by the CoL Rothschilds.

I can understand adopting a UK British Air of Superiority Lord Afi of Tallinn style - it's just the British way -  - it is the blatant intentional boat job ignorance to the real TRUTH that I abhor.

Dear Cufflinks......Finally you are admiting what I have been saying for years.... on this board and elsewhere regarding your Hegemon Empire and also the rest of the world.........including not only UK and my birth country Greece  but also your own Country and every other country were they have control of it's central BanK.

Every time I have made a comment about the Zionists or Rothschilds and their hold on your FED and in general the international Banking System, I have been accused of Anti-Semitism... standard practice of the Jews to cover their bad behaviour, lies and  other unsavoury  actions!

For your information I have been reading most of the articles posted by Paul-Craig-Roberts over the years and I like his calm and intelligent comments and analysis......of world affairs.

Now with his last post he spot on in understanding what is in danger wand who is the culprit of bad behaviour!.

All world wars have  started and fought in Europe and not in American soil.....
After the second world war US took advantage of its size and position to improve
its industrial and other parts of your economy to become the Leader of the world after the WWII finished.

Now the new Russia is not going to let you walk over it as when Yeltsin was in power.......so it's better to listen to sensible people like Paul-Craig-Roberts!

Nobody sensible believes your leader's propaganda about Russia and Ukraine.

[attachimg=2]

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on February 25, 2022, 07:50:50 AM
Bill, many rumours, false news and propaganda messages have a grounding in fact.

Russia has been maintaining a list of people it wants to investigate in respect of atrocities carried out over the past few years against Ukrainian citizens in the Donbas region. It is not a secret. The list is, as I recall, called the White List.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: NS1 on March 13, 2022, 04:39:16 PM
An excellent article on the history of the current conflict in Ukraine:  When Fanatical Ideology Bumps up Against Stone Cold Reality (https://www.theblogmire.com/when-fanatical-ideology-bumps-up-against-stone-cold-reality/)
Manny he choose a side.
You and I could go find, 500 articles doing the same thing for either side.
Finding ones with neutral mentality, writing about the Geo political happenings that got it here
who and what was done wrong, often by both sides is when you find a good read.

Everything you have written in the last little while could loosely be translated to almost
any western country and thier politcis of the 21st century.
Should we look for some Narcissist to go in and right the wrongs?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: yankee on March 13, 2022, 05:57:29 PM
An excellent article on the history of the current conflict in Ukraine:  When Fanatical Ideology Bumps up Against Stone Cold Reality (https://www.theblogmire.com/when-fanatical-ideology-bumps-up-against-stone-cold-reality/)

Great article
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Lon on April 13, 2022, 10:24:58 PM
An excellent article on the history of the current conflict in Ukraine:  When Fanatical Ideology Bumps up Against Stone Cold Reality (https://www.theblogmire.com/when-fanatical-ideology-bumps-up-against-stone-cold-reality/)

Also this:

Quote
Does Russia have a right to invade Ukraine?

According to Christopher Black, an international criminal lawyer based in Toronto who is known for a number of high-profile war crimes cases, yes.

Article here: The Legality Of War (https://christopher-black.com/the-legality-of-war/)

a vid labeled the 'myth of NATO provocations' Peter Zeihan

his contention that Russia is trying to form a defensive perimeter to protect it self from attack.  he says that this desire has nothing to do with NATOs actions.
the first 3:30 minutes is enough to understand his point

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Valenki on April 14, 2022, 08:35:45 AM
A slightly hysterical New York Times Article:

Quote
If we believe that Ukraine will one day become a member of the European Union and NATO, then we should be ready to arm it. We must face the fact that the costs of unlimited European Union and NATO expansion have meant war with Russia by proxy — and then fight the war. Having reignited the hottest moments of the Cold War, we must deal with the consequences of encouraging democratization in Eastern Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?_r=0


Peter Hitchen's Reply:

Quote
Supporters of this policy always pretend that they are acting against corruption and in favour of democracy. But this is just foolish boasting. The substantive difference between the pre-Maidan Ukraine and the post-Maidan Ukraine is purely one of foreign policy orientation. The rest continues pretty much as before . Claims of improved democracy are self-evidently ludicrous.  The existing Kiev government (which has sought to ban at least one legitimate political party) came to power through extra-constitutional means and cannot possibly claim to speak for democracy. A for corruption, do we see any evidence that it has ceased? Is Ukraine’s government, or indeed any part of that country,  currently in the hands of poor men, of practitioners of the career open to all the talents who have worked their way to the top purely on merit? It doesn’t look that way to me..

Above are of course snippets, full articles are on the links.

Discussion >>here<< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg377542#msg377542).
The Hitchen lads always do stun the opposing view with the last sensible word. "That's a wrap!"
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Valenki on April 14, 2022, 08:53:13 AM
An excellent article on the history of the current conflict in Ukraine:  When Fanatical Ideology Bumps up Against Stone Cold Reality (https://www.theblogmire.com/when-fanatical-ideology-bumps-up-against-stone-cold-reality/)

Also this:

Quote
Does Russia have a right to invade Ukraine?

According to Christopher Black, an international criminal lawyer based in Toronto who is known for a number of high-profile war crimes cases, yes.

Article here: The Legality Of War (https://christopher-black.com/the-legality-of-war/)

a vid labeled the 'myth of NATO provocations' Peter Zeihan

his contention that Russia is trying to form a defensive perimeter to protect it self from attack.  he says that this desire has nothing to do with NATOs actions.
the first 3:30 minutes is enough to understand his point

Yes, "the first 3:30 minutes is enough to understand his point" but nowhere in the whole 10 minutes does he substantiate his claim nor does he provide any legitimate insight into what Russia considers "security". It seems to me that his "knowledge" is based solely upon playing simpleton table games and watching John Wayne war films. "Gaps" he says! Jesus in heaven, what a twat!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dorbradavid on April 15, 2022, 04:22:27 AM

Yes, "the first 3:30 minutes is enough to understand his point" but nowhere in the whole 10 minutes does he substantiate his claim nor does he provide any legitimate insight into what Russia considers "security". It seems to me that his "knowledge" is based solely upon playing simpleton table games and watching John Wayne war films. "Gaps" he says! Jesus in heaven, what a twat!  :chuckle:

His point early on is well put. Many in the west think that "a country should do whatever it wants to do". Many not from the west think, "try to get along with the local 66 lb gorilla". It's not nice, but it's realpolitik.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Markje on April 15, 2022, 04:28:36 AM
His point early on is well put. Many in the west think that "a country should do whatever it wants to do". Many not from the west think, "try to get along with the local 66 lb gorilla". It's not nice, but it's realpolitik.

Thats one skinny-ass sickly gorilla there  :8)

Wild male gorillas weigh 136 to 227 kg (300 to 500 lb) (source: Wikipedia)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dorbradavid on April 15, 2022, 06:58:38 AM
His point early on is well put. Many in the west think that "a country should do whatever it wants to do". Many not from the west think, "try to get along with the local 66 lb gorilla". It's not nice, but it's realpolitik.

Thats one skinny-ass sickly gorilla there  :8)

Wild male gorillas weigh 136 to 227 kg (300 to 500 lb) (source: Wikipedia)

Yeah, a typo. Should have been 600 lb. gorilla  tiphat
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 17, 2022, 08:39:39 AM
Turkey will not let more Russian ships on the Black Sea. Russia will not be able to replace the ship.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-Russia-s-request-for-navy-ships-to-pass-Bosporus

Predictable. But the dead of night will always prove otherwise.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 17, 2022, 08:49:32 AM
His article is a must-read in my opinion:

The Military Situation In Ukraine (https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/)

Thanks for sharing. I’ve always, and largely, believed most everything in this article. What I wasn’t aware of is the greater and active French complicity in the Donbas shelling.

It is still unfortunate how so many Ukrainians died, and continue to die, at the political bidding of the west. I largely place the blame on Zelensky for naively bathing in romanticism of a folklore heroism, while the west continue to supply weapons and motivation to fight a proxy war, while the people he vowed to serve continue to suffer and die.

Sad.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AJ on April 17, 2022, 08:58:07 AM
Turkey will not let more Russian ships on the Black Sea. Russia will not be able to replace the ship.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-Russia-s-request-for-navy-ships-to-pass-Bosporus

Predictable. But the dead of night will always prove otherwise.

Highly doubtful.

That straight is highly monitored and regulated even in peace time.
24/7
Particularly in regard to military ships ,and the clearence to pass is asked for and known well in advance.


Any Russian or western ship navigating it would be known .
Andolutely no way fir turkey to pretend otherwise ,and I simply dont think they would.


Might they look the other way?
They could always choose to do so regarding any countries naval vessels, but they might as well do it during the day, same difference.

 It would severely impede their future ability to control the straight, I can't see them compromising that.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Wiz on April 17, 2022, 04:07:06 PM
Turkey will not let more Russian ships on the Black Sea. Russia will not be able to replace the ship.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-Russia-s-request-for-navy-ships-to-pass-Bosporus

Shame that in your desparation to find something against RUssia to Post you do not have the ability to check the information your read........and find it's implications.

Turkey under the "Treaty of Montreux" has resposncibility to run the "Dardanelles Straits, the Marmara sea and also the "Vosporus straits". According to the "Treaty of Montreux" only in Time of war Turkey can stop warships passing through.

As it happens the war in Ukraine is not an official war but a family argument.......and Russia has plenty of boats in its bases in Crimea.......Sevatoupol etc.

While Turkey is offering to help with talks between the 2 warring parties, Ertogan and his government is aware of history. Turkey over the centuries has never won an army war against RUSSIA.

All gass pipe lines, going through Turkey, Turkish stream (Russian) and also the one from Azerbaijan are under to control of Gassprom......

1)Meanwhile Turkey has bought the S400 and depends on Russia to use them for protection.

2) Russia is building two atomic energy factories for cheap electric energy.....and more importantly Turkey Cannot afford to upset Russia......

3) Because Russia under the current situation it is the No1 Client for its Tourist industry...

4) More importantly Turkey know that on the Middle and  EAST SIDE OF tURKEY there are around 25 million Kourdish people, who are well trained fighters......and they want to create an independent Kourdish Nation as promised by the English government of John Major and don't want to upset Russia who has direct access with them. and supply them arms.

5) If they start a war for Leberation from Turkey then The "country Turkey" will be devided in 2 large nations.


Texan 77 I suggest stick to your photography.......
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Lon on April 17, 2022, 05:27:39 PM
As it happens the war in Ukraine is not an official war but a family argument.......and Russia has plenty of boats in its bases in Crimea.......Sevatoupol etc.

While Turkey is offering to help with talks between the 2 warring parties, Ertogan and his government is aware of history. Turkey over the centuries has never won an army war against RUSSIA.

4) More importantly Turkey know that on the Middle and  EAST SIDE OF tURKEY there are around 25 million Kourdish people, who are well trained fighters......and they want to create an independent Kourdish Nation as promised by the English government of John Major and don't want to upset Russia who has direct access with them. and supply them arms.
 
5) If they start a war for Leberation from Turkey then The "country Turkey" will be devided in 2 large nations.[/b]

family argument???  actually, it will be whatever Turkey will defines "the special operation" as being whether the straits stay open

as for Russia having plenty of boats, you do realize that it was a ship sunk?  a very large ship, 12,000 some tons.  it is/was defined as a missile cruiser.  in world navies, the 2nd largest naval ship, only smaller than an aircraft carrier.  the Moskva and her sister ships were designed to attack aircraft carriers during the cold war.  which is why her 16 largest missiles (telephone pole sized) are all facing forward.

are you going to trust that the previous centuries are going to dictate a modern conflict between Turkey and Russia?  Russia is having such a great showing in Ukraine (in your opinion?).
you act as if this little family squabble is operating in a vacuum.  Russia and Ukraine...Turkey and Russia...what about the Kuril islands, Russia and Japan?  I have been reading/watching several articles/persons whose opinions are that there is no way that Russia could do 2 fronts simultaneously, let alone 3 or more. Russia is threatening Finland and Sweden also?
such a war monger you are, Wiz  :biggrin:

25 million Kurds in Turkey that are great fighters, come on Wiz   :chuckle:
per wiki...estimated 30-45 million Kurds world wide.  only 18-25% in Turkey.  what is that total....(avg.)37mil * 21% = 8mil Kurds ( a spread of 5.4-11.2)  .  Wiz, do you have a different reference?  all of them great fighters?  how young are you, Wiz, arming?  11 year olds?  maybe as soon as the child can reach it's ear over the top of his head, 5yo?  are you going to be arming the girls also? that will double the numbers.  how many great fighters are there now?
your opinion that Turkey would be divided in two?  my opinion is that there will be a lot of dead people, mostly more women and children again
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Wiz on April 18, 2022, 07:45:32 AM
As it happens the war in Ukraine is not an official war but a family argument.......and Russia has plenty of boats in its bases in Crimea.......Sevatoupol etc.

While Turkey is offering to help with talks between the 2 warring parties, Ertogan and his government is aware of history. Turkey over the centuries has never won an army war against RUSSIA.

4) More importantly Turkey know that on the Middle and  EAST SIDE OF tURKEY there are around 25 million Kourdish people, who are well trained fighters......and they want to create an independent Kourdish Nation as promised by the English government of John Major and don't want to upset Russia who has direct access with them. and supply them arms.
 
5) If they start a war for Leberation from Turkey then The "country Turkey" will be devided in 2 large nations.[/b]

1) family argument???  actually, it will be whatever Turkey will defines "the special operation" as being whether the straits stay open

2) as for Russia having plenty of boats, you do realize that it was a ship sunk?  a very large ship, 12,000 some tons.  it is/was defined as a missile cruiser.  in world navies, the 2nd largest naval ship, only smaller than an aircraft carrier.  the Moskva and her sister ships were designed to attack aircraft carriers during the cold war.  which is why her 16 largest missiles (telephone pole sized) are all facing forward.

3) are you going to trust that the previous centuries are going to dictate a modern conflict between Turkey and Russia?  Russia is having such a great showing in Ukraine (in your opinion?).

4) you act as if this little family squabble is operating in a vacuum.  Russia and Ukraine...Turkey and Russia...what about the Kuril islands, Russia and Japan?  I have been reading/watching several articles/persons whose opinions are that there is no way that Russia could do 2 fronts simultaneously, let alone 3 or more. Russia is threatening Finland and Sweden also?

5) such a war monger you are, Wiz  :biggrin:

6) 25 million Kurds in Turkey that are great fighters, come on Wiz   :chuckle:
per wiki...estimated 30-45 million Kurds world wide.  only 18-25% in Turkey.  what is that total....(avg.)37mil * 21% = 8mil Kurds ( a spread of 5.4-11.2)  .  Wiz, do you have a different reference?  all of them great fighters?  how young are you, Wiz, arming?  11 year olds?  maybe as soon as the child can reach it's ear over the top of his head, 5yo?  are you going to be arming the girls also? that will double the numbers.  how many great fighters are there now?

7) your opinion that Turkey would be divided in two?  my opinion is that there will be a lot of dead people, mostly more women and children again

1) You either don't know much about the past history of Russia and Ukraine... and their connection.... or deliberately ignoring facts just to be provocative! You state in your avatar, you are married to a Russian woman, so I suggest do ask your wife to educate you about their history!

2) The Black sea is not private and does not belongs to Turkey........and according to the Lease of the old agreement between Russia and Ukraine, Russia had the right to have about 350 boats in the Crimea peninsular...... due to its warm waters.......Now of course belongs to Russia and after they finish with the "Azovstall factory in Marioupol " they will attack Odessa, according to Greek experts, to make sure that Ukraine does not have access to the Black sea.

As about the 1936 CONVENTION REGARDING THE REGIME OF THE STRAITS (https://cil.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/uploads/formidable/18/1936-Convention-Regarding-the-Regime-of-the-Straits.pdf) do read and learn.....

As about the very old Large "Moscow" Boat very soon we will know the full truth. Was it a rocket from Ukraine or from a submarine, roumored,  who started the fire...?

3) No but I maybe know something you posibly are not aware. Turkey has never previously participated in a WW and always joint the last minute, when they knew who will be the winner.... and of course due to it's position negociated for its own benefit! The US has not been relying on Turkey after the 1962 episode in Cuba and empied al bases ... in Turkey but they left 50 Atomic heads, which are not accepted either in the Greek base in Crete or any other Balkan state. These 50 Atomic Heads are still at Incirlik Air Base in SE Turkey.  see https://www.incirlik.af.mil/

4) I am fully aware that the USA had over 800 bases around the world, as part of their hegemonic plan to control the whole world...after the end of the WWII. But lately some things are chanfing a little! We have to wait and see what happens.....

5) I am not a war monger as you state but simply I keep my eyes and ears open to know what is going on around the world! As I happen to be a pensioner and having been through many problems in my life, I have learned to keep my eyes open..... and not sleeping while the world is goings to hell.

Have you asked your wife about her views for her birth country......or your statement is a bullshit.... older members on this board know my face and also my wife 's too and I have met some in person so there is huge difference between us.

In reality you are NOBODY!

6 and 7. The Kurdish problem is not just happen,,,, but is going on for many years....Even with your own numbers that you posted.......take a good look on Turkish map and you will see that if Turkey will loose control on a huge part, that will be a huge dissaster for the country.

My self I keep an eye to my Birth country , Greece, as also to Russia and all ex USSR countries too.

As about your charitable country USA I have to tell you that I have my son living in California and have 5 Grand Children but have no intention travelling again to your country! I prefer to live in UK.......just a short hop for Greece and anywhere in Europe.

 [attachimg=1]


 tiphat




Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AJ on April 18, 2022, 08:52:21 AM
Wiz,
Turkey controls/approves/disapproves  passage of military vessels always,conflict or not.
This includes submarines.

There would be no agreement if it was considered international waters (as anything beyond 15 miles usually is)
The agreement has provisions in both times of peace and in times of war.


What was turkeys position in 14? Which was not declared war ?
Closed to Russian military ships not returning to home ports


They already closed it to Russian military vessels previously if they were not based in the black sea,so there is already evidence of what they do ,and have done.


Can they change thier position? Certainly.

Are they that  worried Russia will promote and prop up  seperatist within the kurds?? Recognize those new Republics written on scratch paper ,and then help* by invading?
Only georgia and Ukraine know best? ;)

How far are the other two  similar russian naval cruisers from the black sea entrance if they choose to try and replace its presence?

They were incompetent and lost a critical ship.
No conspiracy theories needed.



 


Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on April 18, 2022, 09:21:59 AM
Wiz, On a number of times I have noted final authority for passage into the Black Sea lies with Turkey. I also noted that Turkey during the 2nd World War denied passage to Romanian warships. Turkey has recognized the invasion this year of Ukraine as an act of war. This caused before shall we say displeasure with A. Hitler, during the 2nd World War for the same reasons. Russia has on a number of occasions expressed frustration with both Turkey and The Montreaux Convention, nothing is really new here.

Worth noting I believe AJ is referencing article 14, which if I recall defines the size and type of vessel permitted passage through the Bosphorus. But perhaps he is speaking of 2014 and the Krim and the invasion of the Donbas.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 20, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Well, FWIW, an American citizen, Gonzalo Lira, a pro-Russia blogger, according to report (if true) was kidnapped, tortured and murdered by the Azov battalion's Kraken Unit. Is being a pro-Russia make Mr. Lira any less a 'citizen' of the US that made him dispensable and deprived of any human rights protection. The US is arming the Azov battalion, which them makes the US complicit to this unlawful act?

https://kawsachunnews.com/chilean-and-us-authorities-silent-on-gonzalo-lira

Was he part of the war like a spy? Whether yes or no how was Azov battalion supposed to know that. Was he helping Russia by contribution to the information war against Ukraine?  A pro-Russian blogger where Russia is killing Ukrainians. Not smart. What would happen to a Pro USA blogger behind Russian lines? I am sure it would not have been pretty. Actually, this was pretty dumb on his part.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 20, 2022, 04:22:18 PM
Well, FWIW, an American citizen, Gonzalo Lira, a pro-Russia blogger, according to report (if true) was kidnapped, tortured and murdered by the Azov battalion's Kraken Unit. Is being a pro-Russia make Mr. Lira any less a 'citizen' of the US that made him dispensable and deprived of any human rights protection. The US is arming the Azov battalion, which them makes the US complicit to this unlawful act?

https://kawsachunnews.com/chilean-and-us-authorities-silent-on-gonzalo-lira

Was he part of the war like a spy? Whether yes or no how was Azov battalion supposed to know that. Was he helping Russia by contribution to the information war against Ukraine?  A pro-Russian blogger where Russia is killing Ukrainians. Not smart. What would happen to a Pro USA blogger behind Russian lines? I am sure it would not have been pretty. Actually, this was pretty dumb on his part.

I honestly do not know if he's a *spy*. Doubtful. But he is very vocal about his 'apparent' true reporting from Ukraine, obviously based on what he knows, sees/perspective. What I do know is he is (was) living in Ukraine since 2016, and had since been reporting about this war since it broke. I *think* prior to this, he was giving 'dating' advice for WMs in search of UWs...

Here's his social blogging page:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPxpPT4b4vnDlX0sBGz3r4Q/featured
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Jonas! on April 22, 2022, 10:09:00 AM
Maybe many, or some of you, are already aware of this. But for some who aren't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEIFwLKlq1Q
I've been watching this lady off and on for several years.  It seems she is suffering some YOUTUBE blocks here and there.   

I read yesterday that Israel is now working with CHINA using their RMB while dumping the dollar.  I thought that was surprising as Israel is generally an ally of the US.     That dovetails into what this lady is stating in the video (She stated this BEFORE the Israeli move) so the pieces are falling into place. 

Israel adds China's yuan for the first time ever while cutting its dollar holdings in biggest currency reshuffle in a decade

Israel's central bank added yuan to its reserve holdings for the first time ever.

Previously, the bank only held US dollars, euros, and the British pound.

According to the IMF, the dollar's share of the total global currency reserves has fallen to its lowest point in over two decades.

Israel's central bank will add Chinese yuan while slashing its dollar and euro holdings in a move to diversify its reserve allocations and lengthen its investment horizon, Bloomberg reported.


 https://news.yahoo.com/israel-adds-chinas-yuan-first-133259326.html    (https://news.yahoo.com/israel-adds-chinas-yuan-first-133259326.html)

Jonas! 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on April 22, 2022, 10:17:19 AM
Bodine, and others Gonzalo Lira is alive. He has been held by the SBU (and maybe others) for the past week. He now appears to be under some form of house arrest in what looks like his apartment. Looking groggy as hell and obviously in a bit of a state.

He is, however, not dead - yet.

It seems like the fairly large scale public outcry may have worked in his favour, although we are unlikely to ever know the truth of that. But lower profile cases have not had such a positive (for now) outcome.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 22, 2022, 12:47:52 PM
Bodine, and others Gonzalo Lira is alive. He has been held by the SBU (and maybe others) for the past week. He now appears to be under some form of house arrest in what looks like his apartment. Looking groggy as hell and obviously in a bit of a state.

He is, however, not dead - yet.

It seems like the fairly large scale public outcry may have worked in his favour, although we are unlikely to ever know the truth of that. But lower profile cases have not had such a positive (for now) outcome.

Yeah, thanks for that Andrewfi. I suppose the rumor of his demise had been largely exaggerated. Scott Ritter seem to disown any premature reports of his fate.

This is the current broadcast, and he seem so shaken and cautious right now, LMAO. A week's worth of captivity under the tender care he likely received from the SBU, undoubtedly, affected his normally bold personality.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 22, 2022, 12:59:21 PM
Russia just cannot wait to invade next country for supposing depression Russian speaking people. This is the same line Hitler use. I have traveled to this country and meet Russia speakers there. No body I talked to felt persecuted by the government.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-general-announces-plan-to-invade-moldova-after-ukraine/ar-AAWuvVI?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7c79c87474224ec49e6b188593b01c9a
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Lon on April 22, 2022, 01:01:35 PM
Maybe many, or some of you, are already aware of this. But for some who aren't...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEIFwLKlq1Q

more fuel
minute and half of vid

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on April 22, 2022, 01:24:20 PM
Russia just cannot wait to invade next country for supposing depression Russian speaking people. This is the same line Hitler use. I have traveled to this country and meet Russia speakers there. No body I talked to felt persecuted by the government.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-general-announces-plan-to-invade-moldova-after-ukraine/ar-AAWuvVI?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7c79c87474224ec49e6b188593b01c9a

Tex, Perhaps you can explain how Russia intends to do this? The Russian Air Force can not even control the air over Ukraine after 6 weeks of war.

Moldova is land locked between Ukraine and Romania. More likely the inhabitants of TransDneister rebel against Russian occupation and reunite with Moldova.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Wiz on April 22, 2022, 03:45:36 PM
Well, FWIW, an American citizen, Gonzalo Lira, a pro-Russia blogger, according to report (if true) was kidnapped, tortured and murdered by the Azov battalion's Kraken Unit. Is being a pro-Russia make Mr. Lira any less a 'citizen' of the US that made him dispensable and deprived of any human rights protection. The US is arming the Azov battalion, which them makes the US complicit to this unlawful act?

https://kawsachunnews.com/chilean-and-us-authorities-silent-on-gonzalo-lira

He is alive... but shaken a little from the treatment he received from the NAZI Great Patriots... who confiscated all his equipment including his mobile ..... but he manage to get away???? and spoke live to one of his connections on the Free world.

No more details because he is still in the danger zone! ...Sorry
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 22, 2022, 04:02:36 PM
I read yesterday that Israel is now working with CHINA using their RMB while dumping the dollar.  I thought that was surprising as Israel is generally an ally of the US.     That dovetails into what this lady is stating in the video (She stated this BEFORE the Israeli move) so the pieces are falling into place. 


Israel adds China's yuan for the first time ever while cutting its dollar holdings in biggest currency reshuffle in a decade

Israel's central bank added yuan to its reserve holdings for the first time ever.

Previously, the bank only held US dollars, euros, and the British pound.

According to the IMF, the dollar's share of the total global currency reserves has fallen to its lowest point in over two decades.

Israel's central bank will add Chinese yuan while slashing its dollar and euro holdings in a move to diversify its reserve allocations and lengthen its investment horizon, Bloomberg reported.


 https://news.yahoo.com/israel-adds-chinas-yuan-first-133259326.html    (https://news.yahoo.com/israel-adds-chinas-yuan-first-133259326.html)

Jonas!

I have to wonder if this have anything to do at all with the US's robust continued weapons supply of the Ukraine's renegade Azov militants. Reports had it that, even before the invasion, Israel had voiced concern of NATO's active training and arms supply to Azov, in its (Azov) campaign to confront the Donbas proper and (the US's) provocation of Russia.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AJ on April 22, 2022, 08:40:48 PM
The azov battalion  has been incircled by 12 russian battalions for about 5 to.6 weeks,  doubtful they were.getting u.s supplies recently.
This seems more due to fallout from.sanctions and Israel mitigating that
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 22, 2022, 09:18:31 PM
Russia just cannot wait to invade next country for supposing depression Russian speaking people. This is the same line Hitler use. I have traveled to this country and meet Russia speakers there. No body I talked to felt persecuted by the government.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-general-announces-plan-to-invade-moldova-after-ukraine/ar-AAWuvVI?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7c79c87474224ec49e6b188593b01c9a

Tex, Perhaps you can explain how Russia intends to do this? The Russian Air Force can not even control the air over Ukraine after 6 weeks of war.

Moldova is land locked between Ukraine and Romania. More likely the inhabitants of TransDneister rebel against Russian occupation and reunite with Moldova.


Russia is planning to take Odessia then push westward and then get Moldovia. After that I think Putin will want to finish unfinish business in Georga but that is not anything I read just my looking at the pattern. Transdniestria rebels will help of die. There enough Russian troops that are there already they have no choice. Moldovia is pretty much unarmed so this should be over in a few days. The trouble with this plan is these pesky Ukrainians that will not give up and let Odessia fall. Then they sank a couple of ships so no beach assault.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 22, 2022, 10:17:19 PM
This is a fairly long video (podcast) regarding the siege of Mariupol. Chechens celebrating their triumph for *liberating* (their word) Mariupol. The telegraph have a lot of real time video. Even had drones following the fighting overhead during heavy skirmishes.


They’re estimating 1,500 to 2,000 Azov militants blockaded themselves below the steel mill. The decision was made not to break through below and kill them off since they refused to surrender. Apparently they believe there will be a rescue attempt that is forthcoming.

The order to just sit this out and guard all exits until they starve. I’m thinking why not just cut all powers and water supply and let them dwell in total darkness for days if not weeks. If they come out, dunno, maybe start shooting their knee caps off at close range much like they’ve done to those Russian soldiers.

Anyway, this morning our idiotic president once again announced sending another 800 million dollars worth of arms and weaponry. Damned idiot really. He simply doesn’t understand each bullet he sends to Ukraine is directly equal to a dead Ukrainian. The clown ought to start thinking about his country and people and stop getting stooged by the US/west and give up fighting their political ambition. The people of Donbas are his people, too.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: andrewfi on April 23, 2022, 12:52:49 AM
Bodine, just think, what better way to organise a nice bit of money laundering than 'weapons' into a war zone where the senders admit they have absolutely no knowledge of what happens to the materiel after it is dropped off in Poland.

Then there's the nice revenue bump for weapons makers.

Then there's the bunce from selling stuff that actually gets to Ukraine and a kickback for the big man.

Just about the only people who won't benefit from USAian lend lease will be the pbi who get to shoot and die.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dorbradavid on April 23, 2022, 07:11:53 AM
Well, FWIW, an American citizen, Gonzalo Lira, a pro-Russia blogger, according to report (if true) was kidnapped, tortured and murdered by the Azov battalion's Kraken Unit. Is being a pro-Russia make Mr. Lira any less a 'citizen' of the US that made him dispensable and deprived of any human rights protection. The US is arming the Azov battalion, which them makes the US complicit to this unlawful act?

https://kawsachunnews.com/chilean-and-us-authorities-silent-on-gonzalo-lira

He is alive... but shaken a little from the treatment he received from the NAZI Great Patriots... who confiscated all his equipment including his mobile ..... but he manage to get away???? and spoke live to one of his connections on the Free world.

No more details because he is still in the danger zone! ...Sorry

WADR, he needs to leave Ukraine if he cares about his familt at all.  :8)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 23, 2022, 08:36:10 AM

He is alive... but shaken a little from the treatment he received from the NAZI Great Patriots... who confiscated all his equipment including his mobile ..... but he manage to get away???? and spoke live to one of his connections on the Free world.

No more details because he is still in the danger zone! ...Sorry

WADR, he needs to leave Ukraine if he cares about his familt at all.  :8)

Yes, he is likely given a warning to leave then aloud to escaped. The Nazi in Russia not so kind.

Curious Number Of Russian Oligarchs Have Died Since Invasion Of Ukraine

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Wiz on April 23, 2022, 02:04:54 PM

He is alive... but shaken a little from the treatment he received from the NAZI Great Patriots... who confiscated all his equipment including his mobile ..... but he manage to get away???? and spoke live to one of his connections on the Free world.

No more details because he is still in the danger zone! ...Sorry

WADR, he needs to leave Ukraine if he cares about his familt at all.  :8)

Yes, he is likely given a warning to leave then aloud to escaped. The Nazi in Russia not so kind.

Curious Number Of Russian Oligarchs Have Died Since Invasion Of Ukraine :fighting0025:

Gonzalo Lira #WhereisGonzaloLira


Texan you don't change or learn and you continue
talking and posting crap all the time!
Above are my clear evidence
where you only post Crap Propaganda!


dorbradavid he is a big boy and he can make his own decisions for his own life!

 tiphat

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AJ on April 23, 2022, 07:32:18 PM
Russian opposition leaders have  never been known to die from. poison ,be imprisoned  on wacky charges, ,or disappear,
 and journalist.with opposing views are free to be in the air and the net.  They can call a conflict involving a couple hundred thousand troops.  Naval.and ,missle bombardment a war...

Thousands that peacefuliy protested the.war were not arrested and fined
  They havnt spit out any propaganda or falsehoods,
They were merciful  in Chechnya limiting civilian casualties, they did not pay-off the largest opposition warlord to flip sides and install him as president ,
its utopia



 
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 24, 2022, 02:24:34 PM
I came upon this document today.
https://osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

What do you guys think?

I think it's foolish to think of denying these idiots will hesitate to use civilians as human shields.

Like I said in another thread, all 1,500-2,000 (if the estimate is correct) that locked themselves in below the steel plant should not be bothered with an opportunity for their surrender. Instead, give them what they sought to do, die fighting for their cause. Shut all power down, stop any water delivery, block all septic system but make sure ventilation is open.

Once that's done, weld all exits shut tight - then forget they ever existed. Let them die for their cause v-e-r-y-s-l-o-w-l-y in the dark,  never given the chance to ever see the light of day ever again.

They all deserve to be buried alive.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2022, 03:10:57 PM
I think it's foolish to think of denying these idiots will hesitate to use civilians as human shields.


It's normal civilians that don't support their nation get slaughtered and then their bodies are used as propaganda to say the enemy did it.

Nazi Germany killed civilians if they disagreed with the program. The Iraqi Kurds in Northern Iraq got slaughtered by Saddam Hussein went they didn't support his war in Iran. The Azov battalion are documented to torture and kill people years before the war in Ukraine started. Guess how they'll behave during a war time situation where they're more likely to get away with things especially if they support the West's narrative that Russia is guilty of ALL the war crimes in Ukraine. My guess is they're in for a rude awakening. The West will abandon them in the end to be slaughtered or executed by Russian troops. Ask the friendly Afghanis how partnering with us worked out for them.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 24, 2022, 03:24:30 PM

I think it's foolish to think of denying these idiots will hesitate to use civilians as human shields.

Like I said in another thread, all 1,500-2,000 (if the estimate is correct) that locked themselves in below the steel plant should not be bothered with an opportunity for their surrender. Instead, give them what they sought to do, die fighting for their cause. Shut all power down, stop any water delivery, block all septic system but make sure ventilation is open.

Once that's done, weld all exits shut tight - then forget they ever existed. Let them die for their cause v-e-r-y-s-l-o-w-l-y in the dark,  never given the chance to ever see the light of day ever again.

They all deserve to be buried alive.

Yes, you are completely sick.

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2022, 03:53:43 PM

Everybody in Ukraine has a video camera. If Russian soldiers are mowing down civilians and bombers are carpet bombing cities, where's the video evidence? We only see well positioned bodies after an event takes place. I've even seen excavators cleaning up a bombed apartment building days after the bombing took place. Who in their right mind would begin a clean up operation if the enemy is close by?

If the Ukrainian forces are executing civilians sympathetic to the Russian cause, I understand why Western media would suppress those videos. It's important to feed the narrative Russia is evil and needs to go down at all costs, even if it costs every Ukrainian life. Biden will make sure of that with every billion dollars he sends over. I'm not a fan of Putin but we are in his neighborhood and we need to back off. We almost had WW3 when the Soviets were in our neighborhood installing nukes in Cuba. Putin has a right to be concerned with the Deep State experiments happening in Ukraine. He has a right to be alarmed since all his concerns were ignored so he's dealing with the problems himself just like Kennedy would've done in Cuba if the Soviets ignored America's concerns.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 24, 2022, 07:00:24 PM

Everybody in Ukraine has a video camera. If Russian soldiers are mowing down civilians and bombers are carpet bombing cities, where's the video evidence? We only see well positioned bodies after an event takes place. I've even seen excavators cleaning up a bombed apartment building days after the bombing took place. Who in their right mind would begin a clean up operation if the enemy is close by?


Satellite images from numerous sources show the bodies long before the Ukraine forces were near. Your just a pro Trump Nazi. So you take up for the Russian Nazis.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2022, 09:15:06 PM

Everybody in Ukraine has a video camera. If Russian soldiers are mowing down civilians and bombers are carpet bombing cities, where's the video evidence? We only see well positioned bodies after an event takes place. I've even seen excavators cleaning up a bombed apartment building days after the bombing took place. Who in their right mind would begin a clean up operation if the enemy is close by?


Satellite images from numerous sources show the bodies long before the Ukraine forces were near. Your just a pro Trump Nazi. So you take up for the Russian Nazis.

Who are the numerous sources? CNN and Yahoo news? They've lied to us so many times and only tell the truth when it's blatantly clear lies won't work anymore. For example, the NY Times had to admit the Hunter laptop was real and not Russian disinformation as they previously claimed. They also admitted Ashley Biden's diary was real. So if you believe the laptop and diary are real, then that means Joe Biden took showers with his daughter and Hunter shared a bank account with his father in which Joe took 50% according to Hunter's admission in a text to his daughter. Do you think Hunter and Joe paid taxes on that dirty pay to play money? And you're worried about Trump not paying his fair share due to sweet tax breaks given to the rich by Bush, Clinton, and Obama?

I see a lot of Americans bitching about Ukrainians getting slaughtered and want a real solution to the problem but you're never going to get a solution to this problem from a corrupt American government.

2/3rds of Americans now believe there was major election fraud. What took them so long to understand this? The other 1/3rd are still brainwashed by propaganda media to believe Biden is legitimate.

Tex, if you want to make a difference, get involved in fixing our elections and getting rid of corrupt politicians. Nothing else in this world matters with a corrupt cartel in power that is responsible for endless wars with the excuse that we're bringing democracy to those nations. They're lying. When will you get it?  It didn't work in Iraq, Libya, Syria, or Afghanistan and you're dreaming if you think it will happen in Ukraine.

Are you tired of the 10% inflation which is actually an addition tax on us making the rich richer and everybody else poorer? Are you tired of paying double for gas enriching big oil and Russia since they sell so much? Are you tired of the border crisis? Are you tired of the coin shortage, stamp shortage, water shortage, food shortage and other shortages that are engineered by our government to increase prices and human suffering? Are you tired of our government funding biolabs all over the world which has killed many more millions than Russia has killed? The vaccines have killed 5 times more Americans than 9/11, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Where's the outrage? The virus we funded has killed millions around the world and it will be with us the rest of our lives.

It's mind boggling to me that so many Americans think peace in Ukraine can be achieved by the corrupt people who stole our country. Has it ever occurred to you those corrupt people want endless war and particularly wanted this current war? You want Ukraine and other problems fixed? Fix our country first. You and your children and your children's children have no future if you and I don't take action to save our nation. Man up. Grow a pair and let's be on the same team to fix America and the rest of the world will benefit greatly.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Bodine on April 24, 2022, 09:18:18 PM

I think it's foolish to think of denying these idiots will hesitate to use civilians as human shields.

Like I said in another thread, all 1,500-2,000 (if the estimate is correct) that locked themselves in below the steel plant should not be bothered with an opportunity for their surrender. Instead, give them what they sought to do, die fighting for their cause. Shut all power down, stop any water delivery, block all septic system but make sure ventilation is open.

Once that's done, weld all exits shut tight - then forget they ever existed. Let them die for their cause v-e-r-y-s-l-o-w-l-y in the dark,  never given the chance to ever see the light of day ever again.

They all deserve to be buried alive.

Yes, you are completely sick.


No. Sick is May 2, 2014, Odessa. 48 Ukrainians burned alive.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dorbradavid on April 25, 2022, 03:30:36 AM

Who are the numerous sources? CNN and Yahoo news? They've lied to us so many times and only tell the truth when it's blatantly clear lies won't work anymore. For example, the NY Times had to admit the Hunter laptop was real and not Russian disinformation as they previously claimed. They also admitted Ashley Biden's diary was real. So if you believe the laptop and diary are real, then that means Joe Biden took showers with his daughter and Hunter shared a bank account with his father in which Joe took 50% according to Hunter's admission in a text to his daughter. Do you think Hunter and Joe paid taxes on that dirty pay to play money? And you're worried about Trump not paying his fair share due to sweet tax breaks given to the rich by Bush, Clinton, and Obama?

I see a lot of Americans bitching about Ukrainians getting slaughtered and want a real solution to the problem but you're never going to get a solution to this problem from a corrupt American government.

2/3rds of Americans now believe there was major election fraud. What took them so long to understand this? The other 1/3rd are still brainwashed by propaganda media to believe Biden is legitimate.

Tex, if you want to make a difference, get involved in fixing our elections and getting rid of corrupt politicians. Nothing else in this world matters with a corrupt cartel in power that is responsible for endless wars with the excuse that we're bringing democracy to those nations. They're lying. When will you get it?  It didn't work in Iraq, Libya, Syria, or Afghanistan and you're dreaming if you think it will happen in Ukraine.

It's mind boggling to me that so many Americans think peace in Ukraine can be achieved by the corrupt people who stole our country. Has it ever occurred to you those corrupt people want endless war and particularly wanted this current war? You want Ukraine and other problems fixed? Fix our country first. You and your children and your children's children have no future if you and I don't take action to save our nation. Man up. Grow a pair and let's be on the same team to fix America and the rest of the world will benefit greatly.

I'm not a fan of Russia, but I tend to regard anything from the MSM as suspect. Seriously, they've ;lied about so much, NOW they are sudden ly telling the truth?  :8)
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Texan77 on April 25, 2022, 06:28:05 AM

Everybody in Ukraine has a video camera. If Russian soldiers are mowing down civilians and bombers are carpet bombing cities, where's the video evidence? We only see well positioned bodies after an event takes place. I've even seen excavators cleaning up a bombed apartment building days after the bombing took place. Who in their right mind would begin a clean up operation if the enemy is close by?


Satellite images from numerous sources show the bodies long before the Ukraine forces were near. Your just a pro Trump Nazi. So you take up for the Russian Nazis.

Who are the numerous sources? CNN and Yahoo news?


Commerical satellite companies submitting data to war crime trials.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: dorbradavid on April 28, 2022, 05:53:20 AM

Interesting overview of the media coverage in Ukraine  :8)

Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AvHdB on May 01, 2022, 11:24:20 AM
previously I posted one of Peter Zeihan's vids about the routes into Russia that they wanted to block.
this is about the importance of Ukraine's rivers to Russia.
most info in the first 5 minutes


the last part of vid has some comments about oil production and how it will be declining over the next few months and year or so

Certainly an interesting video worth pondering. In February I noted a military goal of Russia would be to seize the four ports of Ukraine. So far they have reduced one to a state of total loss another is semi controlled by Russia and the other two have repulsed Russian attempts to capture them.

I am amazed that there are posters who still think this is going as planned by V. Putin.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: AJ on May 13, 2022, 11:28:19 PM
Tardio has been in Ukraine a bit.
  Not sure on his insights overall,but on the daily stuff he has been pretty spot on and  normally keeps Robs bias in check a bit.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: patagonie on May 14, 2022, 01:01:39 AM
Halo seldom posts here now-

But this is a very interesting article 
she shared,
 from a former chinese ambasador regarding the conflict.

https://gaodawei.wordpress.com/2022/05/10/fmr-prc-amb-to-ukraine-on-russias-impending-defeat-and-international-relations/
[/quote
The post, in his official version, had been suppressed. Fortunately, you can read it here.
The analysis is very interesting and very accurate IMHO. However, I know some other posters here will disagree.
 
But this guy has spent a lot of time in Russia and Ukraine and doesn't belong to the Western media (SMI).
That's why it's quite unique.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Jonas! on August 08, 2022, 01:57:51 PM
The Daily Star isn't known for it's super accurate, unbiased reporting of the News.

Putin 'has given order for Russia to deploy nukes in Ukraine' claims Kremlin insider
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/putin-has-given-order-russia-27686367
Despite perhaps a dubious source a couple naysayers here, I believe nuclear weapons may be used if certain events were to occur in Ukraine.  Russia shows no signs of relenting, escalating is definitely a possibility. 
Jonas!
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: WestCoast on August 08, 2022, 02:14:32 PM
The Daily Star isn't known for it's super accurate, unbiased reporting of the News.

Putin 'has given order for Russia to deploy nukes in Ukraine' claims Kremlin insider
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/putin-has-given-order-russia-27686367
Despite perhaps a dubious source a couple naysayers here, I believe nuclear weapons may be used if certain events were to occur in Ukraine.  Russia shows no signs of relenting, escalating is definitely a possibility. 
Jonas!

Jonas perhaps you, Manny and others could start a group telling the rest of world to submit to Russia's demands to avoid WW3?
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Jonas! on August 08, 2022, 02:24:00 PM
The Daily Star isn't known for it's super accurate, unbiased reporting of the News.

Putin 'has given order for Russia to deploy nukes in Ukraine' claims Kremlin insider
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/putin-has-given-order-russia-27686367
Despite perhaps a dubious source a couple naysayers here, I believe nuclear weapons may be used if certain events were to occur in Ukraine.  Russia shows no signs of relenting, escalating is definitely a possibility. 
Jonas!

Jonas perhaps you, Manny and others could start a group telling the rest of world to submit to Russia's demands to avoid WW3?
I'd classify that unnecessary comment as a being a troll.   I was merely stating my opinion on topic, and you want to make a silly comment to distort the truth.   The US should submit to Russian demands not because of the nuke issue, but because Russia is correct in what they have been essentially forced to do, by the aggressive interloping US.  The nuclear issue is a reality as well. 

HERE is where I'm supposed to reply with a trollish remark about you but will refrain. 

Jonas!   
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: mhr7 on February 13, 2023, 05:26:40 PM
Yeah, I got that email this morning.
Title: Re: Discussion about Media Article Links on the Troubles in Ukraine/Novorossiya Topic
Post by: Valenki on April 04, 2023, 10:50:05 PM
The US should submit to Russian demands ..... because Russia is correct in what they have been essentially forced to do, by the aggressive interloping US.
Jonas!
Well said, Jonas!   :thumbsup: