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There is an interesting interview with Luke Harding of The Guardian, which will play on CBC's Q on the hour (about 20 minutes from now). It may also be on their podcast tomorrow. Quite illuminating for those swallowing Kremlin propaganda.
http://www.cbc.ca/liveradio/popup/index.html?networkKey=cbc_radio_one&programKey=vancouver
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That link for me opened up some zany comedy type show.
But as the Ukrainian side deserves an equal airing as well, and the link was not about the Russian view [the topic it was in], I made a fresh topic.
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The link was live (so to speak, it airs at 10 a.m. in every Canadian market), so you missed the programme. I'll check for a podcast and provide a link, if available. The comedy programme is The Debaters, but a better one (Thursdays only) is This is That.
The interview did not present the Ukrainian side, it was about Russian attempts to influence perceptions by flooding blogs and comment section of newspapers with pro Kremlin commentary. I have noticed this in Canadian newspapers, particularly in the National Post. The same talking points, almost word for word, in the same awkward English, posted under various monikers, appear time and again.
Luke Harding, BTW, has the distinction of being the first Western journalist to be de facto expelled from Russia in the post Soviet period (by refusing him entry and deporting him the same day).
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about Russian attempts to influence perceptions by flooding blogs and comment section of newspapers with pro Kremlin commentary.
I think both sides do the same. We have a topic or two here from Russian IP addresses, new members, that puts forth a Russian view. But similarly, other venues are bursting with American propaganda.
Anyway, only fitting we have a topic in which folk can espouse the American Ukrainian point of view.
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Luke Harding is a Brit.
Most Americans don't care enough about this issue to be commenting on it in online newspapers and blogs.
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You miss the point.
Airstrip One America and the mainland EU are at one in the constant covert war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.
Our media is dripping with anti-Russian rhetoric each day. Much of it from America (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2625378/MATTHEW-BARZUN-America-NOT-stand-idly-Putin-cronies-destroy-peace-Europe.html).
Many people swallow it. The same way people swallow what happened in Ukraine as just a bunch of folks who had a genuine protest, and it all got out of hand because of the nasty Mr Putin. It has more gravitas when you can tag on references to Hitler, lots of comments about dictators, and the fact [apparently] that he is about to "invade" [insert country of choice - I vote Guatemala].
I agree that most Americans couldn't put a pin in Ukraine on a map. Indeed, many think Europe is a country. Hence why they don't want their tax dollars used in another public war, and why America is instead using their tax dollars to fight a covert one instead; and encouraging the media to report it as a crusade for freedom, supporting an underdog, the war on [insert this weeks target catch phrase] or whatever the buzz phrase is there now to justify intervention in 124 countries across the world (I read today).
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You miss the point. Airstrip One America and the EU are at one in the constant war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.
Untrue. Up until Crimea, Russia and the U.S. even held joint military exercises. Hardly the actions of states "at war" with each other.
Our media is dripping with anti-Russian rhetoric each day. Much of it from America (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2625378/MATTHEW-BARZUN-America-NOT-stand-idly-Putin-cronies-destroy-peace-Europe.html).
I don't really consider the Daily Mail a serious media source. I do love its witty headlines, though. I also have not found a significant amount of "anti Russian" views in most serious American newspapers.
Many people swallow it. The same way people swallow what happened in Ukraine is just a bunch of folks who had a genuine protest, and it all got out of hand because of the nasty Mr Putin.
That was not the case though, at the beginning of the Euromaidan protests though, was it? Further, most people weren't paying attention.
I don't believe the US or the EU were behind Euromaidan. As I have posted in the past, it was Orangista politicians. But even among the paid protesters, there were genuine protesters who see their future in the West, not the East. Some mistakenly believe the EU Association Agreement will bring instant prosperity, but many understand that weeding out a great deal of corruption in Ukraine is more likely to occur by adopting EU, rather than Russian, standards.
It has more gravitas when you can tag on references to Hitler, lots of comments about dictators, and the fact [apparently] that he is about to "invade" [insert country of choice].
That must be why all the Kremlin propagandists insert the word фашисты as an adjective describing anything even remotely related to Ukraine.
I agree that most Americans couldn't put a pin in Ukraine on a map. Hence why they don't want their tax dollars used in another public war, and why America is instead using their tax dollars to fight a covert one instead; and encouraging the media to report is as a crusade for freedom, supporting an underdog, the war on [insert this weeks target catch phrase] or whatever the buzz phrase is there now to justify intervention in 124 countries across the world (I read today).
The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine. They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.
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I don't really consider the Daily Mail a serious media source. I do love its witty headlines, though. I also have not found a significant amount of "anti Russian" views in most serious American newspapers.
It depends what you define as serious. Yes, the Daily Mail can be a little sensationalist, but they do allow a balance of opinion. The Times on the other hand [widely regarded as a more serious publication] has been publishing complete fiction in its "editorial opinion".
I don't believe the US or the EU were behind Euromaidan. As I have posted in the past, it was Orangista politicians.
We will agree to differ on that then. I think much of it was orchestrated and planned by the west. Sure, many innocent people got sucked in believing their own version of what it was about [rather like football hooliganism in that respect].
But even among the paid protesters, there were genuine protesters who see their future in the West, not the East. Some mistakenly believe the EU Association Agreement will bring instant prosperity, but many understand that weeding out corruption in Ukraine is more likely by adopting EU, rather than Russian, standards.
I don't think anyone doubts that genuine protesters were mixed in there. Many might "see their future" in the EU. So do half of Africa and India. The EU [by which I mean the people - not the machine] doesn't want Ukraine. We cant afford to fix them [we are still paying for Greece]. They bring nothing to the party in exchange.
That must be why all the Kremlin propagandists insert the word фашисты as an adjective describing anything even remotely related to Ukraine.
Of course they do. They must now play the game. War isn't just guns any more.
The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine. They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.
You might want to Google the words "Ukraine" with any mixture of the words Greystone, Graystone, XE, Blackwater and Academi.
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Most news from here has very little Russian propaganda. I think most involved, weather
on this forum or such places, have learned enough to look for info on many places.
One thing many over look is the average person in Ukraine and how they feel.
Yes we speak about our friends, wives, girlfriends and their family. But the speak to
many, and the feeling is most want to be independent, With Russians involvement
this has grown more and does daily.
Regardless of our views on how events unfolded in Kiev, the protest did grow to average
Ukrainians, finally had enough of corruption, and all the issues in the country, which have not been getting better, I think most would agree, events, spiralled out of control and got ugly quickly.
Things started to calm down and Russia got involved. Weather you agree with it out not
the average person in Ukraine, see's this as being fuelled by Russia.
For what its worth, My wife might be Ukrainian, but she was born in Russia, has family their,
Owned land in Krym and now wants nothing to do with Russia, figures her land is gone,
we were planning trip, next year to Russia, she does not want to go, now or ever ( her words)
Mostly now worries about her son and friends in different parts of Ukraine.
Where she is, it is peaceful, quiet and life moves forward, with big uncertainty as to whats next.
When this is over it will take years if ever, for Ukrainians to get over, Russian wanted Ukraine closer, all they managed was to push them further away, especially the younger generation.
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The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine. They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.
You might want to Google the words "Ukraine" with any mixture of the words Greystone, Graystone, XE, Blackwater and Academi.
The presence of American mercenaries in eastern Ukraine, doesn't necessitate the involvement of the American government. If these or any mercenaries are part of the fighting, the more interesting question is who is paying for it. There was speculation in one russian article that mercenaries were being funded by the Ukrainian government.
There are also reports of Russian military being in eastern Ukraine. Russia denied the presence of their troops in Crimea, only to later confirm it. Possbily the same thing going on here.
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The Obama administration stated from Day 1 that there would be no military intervention in Ukraine. They also are not fighting any war in Ukraine, whether covert or not.
You might want to Google the words "Ukraine" with any mixture of the words Greystone, Graystone, XE, Blackwater and Academi.
You may also wish to Google 'An Alien knocked on my door today' if you really want a good laugh. tiphat
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Most news from here has very little Russian propaganda. I think most involved, weather
on this forum or such places, have learned enough to look for info on many places.
One thing many over look is the average person in Ukraine and how they feel.
Yes we speak about our friends, wives, girlfriends and their family. But the speak to
many, and the feeling is most want to be independent, With Russians involvement
this has grown more and does daily.
Regardless of our views on how events unfolded in Kiev, the protest did grow to average
Ukrainians, finally had enough of corruption, and all the issues in the country, which have not been getting better, I think most would agree, events, spiralled out of control and got ugly quickly.
Things started to calm down and Russia got involved. Weather you agree with it out not
the average person in Ukraine, see's this as being fuelled by Russia.
For what its worth, My wife might be Ukrainian, but she was born in Russia, has family their,
Owned land in Krym and now wants nothing to do with Russia, figures her land is gone,
we were planning trip, next year to Russia, she does not want to go, now or ever ( her words)
Mostly now worries about her son and friends in different parts of Ukraine.
Where she is, it is peaceful, quiet and life moves forward, with big uncertainty as to whats next.
When this is over it will take years if ever, for Ukrainians to get over, Russian wanted Ukraine closer, all they managed was to push them further away, especially the younger generation.
NS1, the view you present of the situation in Ukraine is consistent with that of my wife, and our friends in Ukraine. She is from the Dnepro area. They want Ukraine to be unified and independent, and for Ukrainians to sort out their own problems without interference from Russia.
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Here's a link to the podcast. There is a short ad before the podcast kicks in. Luke Harding's interview starts at 5:06.
http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/podcasts/qpodcast_20140514_91406.mp3
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Halo, thanks for posting this. Harding is spot on in his assessment.
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Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1
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Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1
You might want to update your understanding in this matter.
What has ACTUALLY happened is that the guy has come to an agreement with the anti-Kiev folks. They are on the same side in most respects, hence the agreement and, what I suppose might be called a power sharing. The problem is that this is a further devolution of the power of the junta and central government and a move toward a warlord based society similar to that which started to grow up in Russia. The major oligarchs in Ukraine tend to have regional power bases which is why they were appointed as 'governors' by the junta. You may see more, and similar, moves over the next few days and it would be a mistake to see them as being in any way positive. This move is a protectionist one because Akhmetov understands that Kiev can not and will not protect his interests (wealth and power).
The article you read makes a few assumptions that are untrue and uses them to weave a largely fictional tale. Yes, Akhmetov is not in favour of a separate state to Ukraine, certainly not in favour of union with Russia - Russia would have his balls in a vice in days. But, like many of the anti-Kiev folks he wants a united country with a stable economy. As a backstop he will accept a functionally independent fiefdom which is what he has started to set up.
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Perhaps this is a more accurate source.
http://mashable.com/2014/05/15/steelworkers-eastern-ukraine/
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Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1
What worries me is the trigger happy private militia springing up. They also seem to be funded by the wealthy in country. Unfortunately it appears the situation in Ukraine will deteriorate.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/call-to-arms-348076.html (http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/call-to-arms-348076.html)
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You miss the point. Airstrip One America and the mainland EU are at one in the constant covert war against Russia, and exponents of the continual expansion of NATO to hem Russia in.
Got much Paranoia going lately?
Hem Russia in????????????????
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Russia, due to Imperialistic expansion in the 18th and 19th Centuries eearily similar to the USA, occupies the largest land mass of any one Country in the World: so vast that it goes across 10 time zones.
But instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia), making more business deals with the likes of Mercedes Benz and Chevron; Herr Putler resorts to his paranoid version of the West stealing the FSU former glory....and wastes hundreds of Billions due to his illegal annexation of Crimea and illegal soft invasion of E. Ukraine.
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instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)
Ant, you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.
What we perhaps take for granted is the logistics behind maintaining these roads, for long periods there's temperatures of -15 - -40 even below.
If the same weather conditions existed in most western countries I'm sure the road conditions would be on par if not worse then they are in Russia today.
Personally I was quite impressed with the road conditions considering the climate they are dealing with and the vast distances between cities.
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instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)
you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.
Oh really? You seem to be deeply confused. Which one is it? Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"?? You are a walking, talking contradiction. :chuckle:
How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?
More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany? See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?
Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???
Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption? Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?
No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.
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instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)
you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.
Oh really? You seem to be deeply confused. Which one is it? Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"?? You are a walking, talking contradiction. :chuckle:
How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?
More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany? See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?
Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???
Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption? Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?
No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.
Have you been to Russia Ant? If so, when and which parts of the country have you driven?
As for parts being good or bad, can you say that about your own country? I certainly can, if you need examples let me know.
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If any of you ARE interested in what Ukrainians think (most of us, in fact), I could suggest you one of the Internet sources we respect most. It is Kiev Post.
For instance, in what comes to the events on the east of Ukraine, the very fresh update one can read on Dmitry Tymchuk's military blog. He is the head of Information Resistance Group.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/author/dmitry-tymchuk/
The latest update says, Putin's intimidation tactics continue.
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instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)
Ant, you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.
Roads, unfortunately, is not the only issue of Russian Federation.
While Putin has got roughly 40 000 000 000 (probably, it is 140 000 000 000, what changes nothing) of , no, not Russian roubles, most likely US dollars, average people in province live in not luxurious conditions
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Roads, unfortunately, is not the only issue of Russian Federation.
While Putin has got roughly 40 000 000 000 (probably, it is 140 000 000 000, what changes nothing) of , no, not Russian roubles, most likely US dollars, average people in province live in not luxurious conditions
Interesting video :)
I do however have a different view, there's many of these Village people who have grown up in this environment who do not wish to have change, given the opportunity to move into a modern luxury apartment they would refuse, preferring to live in the lifestyle they know well, a modern lifestyle isn't something they desire.
Sure you will disagree, I talk from experience and some people I know.
There's one thing thinking that a modern life of TV, supermarkets, heating, running water etc seems like a life essential to most, some who have never had these modern conveniences are more then happy to live without, enjoy working the land to survive and couldn't understand a life any different.
There's then the case of pensions, whilst Russia doesn't provide a huge state pension the people don't starve, there's as much pension poverty in western countries as there is in Russia. I'm sure someone will provide statistics to disprove me but that doesn't take account of the self providing nature of older generations in Russia, many will work land in order to feed themselves during summer/winter. I know of one who's in her 90's still planting potatoes, strawberries etc etc etc.
That same lady would soon be dead sat in a nice apartment day in day out watching some Jeremy Kyle BS day in day out, she has a reason to live and remains active, I fully respect her for that.
The video is very misleading in real terms.
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instead of improving infrastructure (like building Autobahns all over Russia)
you can't of spent much time in Russia, there's plenty of roads between major cities they're pretty rubbish in parts, but plenty good enough in others.
Oh really? You seem to be deeply confused. Which one is it? Are the roads "plenty good enough" (not sure WTF that means) or are they "pretty rubbish"?? You are a walking, talking contradiction. :chuckle:
How many lanes is the freeway from St. Petersburg to Moscow?
More importantly, how do the roads and freeways in Russia compare to those in Germany? See, we're constantly being told of Soviet glory in defeating Germany, but who won the economic war?
Is Herr Putler going to be a neanderthal and live in the past, or is he going to make the investments in infrastructure and get Russia up to W. European standards???
Is he going to make real changes to stop corruption? Does he really believe every Russian couple can have 4 kids, when he is way behind in developing his country?
No it's not a "cock measuring" contest with the West---Its the repercussions of living in the past instead of investing for the future.
Have you been to Russia Ant? If so, when and which parts of the country have you driven?
As for parts being good or bad, can you say that about your own country? I certainly can, if you need examples let me know.
You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.
Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow??????
And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???
I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country... :sick0012:
http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/
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Anteros, you need to give Russian road builders more time!
Plus, writing anything negative about Russia in publicly read media is now a crime under new laws. Tsk, tsk. You are a bad boy. You are free to have an opinion but not free to express it!
As to the roads, be patient, lad. Back in 2007 I wrote about the M-10 here on this forum:
Known as M-10, the Moscow Highway (Московское Шоссе) traveling south and as Leningrad Highway (Ленинградское шоссе) climbing north, 666 kilometres (414 miles) were in front of us.
When Dwight Eisenhower returned from Germany he was very impressed with German highways. Realizing that modern highways would aid in the rapid defense should America be attacked, the USA began a campaign which we now know as the US Interstate highway system. What it also did was revolutionize the economy, stimulating rapid transit of trade goods at a pace unknown anywhere else in the world.
Stalin on the other hand was afraid of modern roads. Russia might be ruled by the Germans today had modern highways allowed the Germans to move quickly to conquer Leningrad and Moscow. And Russia had been battered by Stalin's brutality before Hilter came calling and Russia was too drained to begin a modernization of roads.
So while the USA modernized thru the 1950s to 1970s, Russia today has less than 10 superhighways. Known as Federal Highways, most of Russia's road system is not that much different than they were 50-100-150-500 years ago. In the case of M-10, the Federal highway between Moscow and St P, the only difference today is pavement. Built by a Frenchman who was lured to Russia by Alexander I on the promise of being commissioned as a Major General in the Russian Army, its the main road between Moscow and St Petersburg.
The first known "travel article" written about the highway was authored by Alexander Radishchev, who in the year 1790 wrote his Journey from Petersburg to Moscow. “I looked around me,” wrote Radishchev, “and my soul was pierced by the sufferings of humanity. I turned my gaze within myself – and beheld that man’s affliction arises from man, and often only from the fact that he looks indirectly at the objects surrounding him”.
Not exactly an AAA Motor Club endorsement. He was arrested and exiled to Siberia for writing the report.
Except for the addition of asphalt pavement, not much has changed to the 2 lane highway which wanders and angles thru small villages and towns toward it's destination. The main highway in Russia, connecting two biggest cities Moscow city and St. Petersburg has only two lanes, with only a few sections with 3-4 lanes, mainly closer to the two cities. Designed as a 'reverse' highway in which the middle lane, when it rarely appears, is a passing lane going either direction. M-10 is accident prone and claims the lives of hundreds annually.
Don't get me wrong, its a scenic road with lots of little villages and slices of authentic Russian life. Think of America's famous "Route 66" in the 1950s. It's just not very fast.
Nor is it safe.
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In fairness, Russia is building M-11, a new toll expressway between Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Personally I like the idea, except the sections going thru the Khimki forest, as it offers a safer route with modern construction methods/roadway management and faster speeds around 150 km/h or 90+ mph.
You can read more about the new M11 here: http://www.aecom.com/Where+We+Are/Europe/Transportation/_projectsList/M11+Highway,+Russia
The existing M-10 will remain in place as kind of a Route 66 allowing a more scenic route. The M designation is for federal highway and it will continue on northward to Finlandia (Finland).
There are parts of the M-10 that are as modern as anywhere else.
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You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.
Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow??????
And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???
I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country... :sick0012:
http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/
Ant, it's a simple question, when have you been to Russia, and which parts have you driven? Why so secretive?
I have never driven to St Pete, there you got me, so just how many lanes in the motorway?
Which parts of Europe have you driven then? How do the European roads fair to Russian roads, can you give us your thoughts then I am very interested to hear them.
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In fairness, Russia is building M-11, a new toll expressway between Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Personally I like the idea, except the sections going thru the Khimki forest, as it offers a safer route with modern construction methods/roadway management and faster speeds around 150 km/h or 90+ mph.
You can read more about the new M11 here: http://www.aecom.com/Where+We+Are/Europe/Transportation/_projectsList/M11+Highway,+Russia
The existing M-10 will remain in place as kind of a Route 66 allowing a more scenic route. The M designation is for federal highway and it will continue on northward to Finlandia (Finland).
There are parts of the M-10 that are as modern as anywhere else.
Interesting video Mendy, what i like most about it is something you don't get very often in Europe, minimal traffic!
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You think that you're clever with your deflections and logical fallacies, but you're not.
Again, How many lanes is the highway from St. Pete to Moscow??????
And how does that compare to the Autobahn in Germany, the freeways system in Switzerland, Austria, France, etc???
I've driven all over Europe, Russia overall is about 50 years behind, and Herr Putler is wasting Billions invading another country instead of working on his own country... :sick0012:
http://englishrussia.com/2007/01/30/death-highway-st-petersburg-moscow/
Ant, it's a simple question, when have you been to Russia, and which parts have you driven? Why so secretive?
And he talks about deflecting?
Yes, I'm curious too Ant, when was the last time you were here? And what cities have you been to?
Really, just curious.
Mendy, Yes it does take time, and you know that it takes "extra" time here in Russia :).
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/toll-roads-to-become-core-of-moscow-regions-network/481756.htmlBut, it's coming.
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Perhaps this is a more accurate source.
http://mashable.com/2014/05/15/steelworkers-eastern-ukraine/
You're not very good at this are you.
Mashable is not a source for anything. The site is an aggregator of material from around the internet. Nothing is original, no reporters, no primary sources. When you read the link you shared you will recognise some of the words from your first link. You are looking at rewritten content from NYT, videos from YouTube and maybe a rewriter assembling the content.
What you might want to do to improve your understanding is some research into the characters and interests of the stakeholders. Learn about Ahkmetov's relationship with the junta. Read about his opinions on federalism. Understand where the markets for his products are.
Learn about the anti Kiev protesters in the region, see what their interests are, understand how they mesh with Ahkmetov's.
Then do a little reading about how warlords function, fiefdoms develop and how usually they are a reflection of the lack of power and legitimacy from the national government.
When you have learned this stuff you will understand just how the original NYT piece was misleading you. You will understand, as Sashathecat notes, the threat that Ahkmetov's move poses to Ukraine.
Basically you'll have learned a lot.
But you really have got get a handle on sources, what they are and what they represent.
Mashable is a handy tool. A shame that they do not give credit to the sources they aggregate as that makes use of the site harder but as a jumping off point it can be useful. It is NOT a credible source for anything though.
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My purpose was to introduce the story to those who may not have been aware that it happened. If they wish to pursue further research on their own it's their choice.
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Akhmetov's Metinvest group and the anti-Kiev protesters are allies and have joined in an agreement in respect of their relationship with Kiev and the management of the newly autonomous region.
Link to the agreement document is below.
Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1
Your claim that you merely introduced the topic of the tie up between Akhmetov's Metinvest and the anti-Kiev activists for discussion is rather given the lie by the title that you chose.
As I noted after your post the article was a misleading and untrue statement of affairs. So I guess that posting another source that merely reworded the first article was an accident.
Yes, it is hard for you guys who are unable and unwilling to read critically, even harder when you can't deal with foreign languages but it did not take much to understand that the thrust of the article was likely to be fictional. The only question that needed to be asked was 'why would Metinvest take up arms against the protesters when we already know that they are in agreement about pretty much every issue?'
Anyway, I told you that the Metinvest owners and management had reached an agreement with the anti-Kiev activists. Here is the text of that agreement, note, it is from a primary source. It gets no better than that. Of course one or both parties to the agreement could choose to renege, but the purpose and objectives are clear.
Here's the link: http://www.metinvestholding.com/ru/press/news/show/2923
Ladies and gentlemen please understand I take no sides here, unlike some - and you are, of course free to do so if you identify some kind of common cause. What is hard though is dealing with people who place precedence in their imagining of what that cause is over the reality of the world as it is. That helps nobody because that means thought is discarded as a useful tool. The readers become some other person's useful tool: spreaders of disinformation as fact without taking the care to see if it might be true.
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Ukraine's richest man takes on separatists in Donetsk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?_r=1
Your claim that you merely introduced the topic of the tie up between Akhmetov's Metinvest and the anti-Kiev activists for discussion is rather given the lie by the title that you chose.
I chose that title because Akhmetov opposes separation and wants Ukraine to remain whole and unbroken. It's no lie.
The title is hardly relevant, folks can read the article and come to their own conclusions, as you did.
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Ah, so now you are claiming that you knew what I told you was true from the outset, that you did not believe the story to be true?
You understood, even as you wrote the thread title that what you were writing was untrue?
If so why not tell us that the story was untrue, that Akhmetov did NOT 'take on the seperatists'?
Why tell us stuff that you knew to be untrue?
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Ah, so now you are claiming that you knew what I told you was true from the outset, that you did not believe the story to be true?
You understood, even as you wrote the thread title that what you were writing was untrue?
If so why not tell us that the story was untrue, that Akhmetov did NOT 'take on the seperatists'?
Why tell us stuff that you knew to be untrue?
I'll send a pm and consult with you before choosing a title next time, OK? Maybe, if you ask nicely, Manny will change it.
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If any of you ARE interested in what Ukrainians think (most of us, in fact), I could suggest you one of the Internet sources we respect most. It is Kiev Post.
For instance, in what comes to the events on the east of Ukraine, the very fresh update one can read on Dmitry Tymchuk's military blog. He is the head of Information Resistance Group.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/author/dmitry-tymchuk/
The latest update says, Putin's intimidation tactics continue.
I also prefer the Kiev post especially as it is in English. There is another site with interesting information though in Russian language http://www.tsn.ua
Today there is an article with pictures of a supermarket in Simferopol. The shelves are mostly empty and the prices are up to 3 times higher such as the milk.
http://tsn.ua/foto/u-krimskih-supermarketah-sporozhnili-prilavki-a-cini-zrosli-v-pivtora-dva-razi-349985.html
Then there are nude pictures of the new foreign minister of the independent Donetsk republic.
http://tsn.ua/foto/na-luganschini-ministr-seapartistiv-fotografuyetsya-toples-na-vulicyah-mista-u-nepristoynih-pozah-349860.html
There is also a Kiev story with pictures, about the parents of people who died in Odessa.
I think it is interesting that at least one large part of giving Crimea to Ukraine was due to economic reasons. Now that it is back in the fold with Momma Russia they will need to deal with the economics. Double pension payments will not be of much use when there is very little water, utility rates are high and goods are drying up. This is all now up to Russia to supply or steal from Ukraine.
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Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.
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Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.
I can understand there being shortages and even price gouging it happens during times of rapid change however issues involving law and order should have been thought out well in advance. Russia had notice of the vote happening and the likely outcome, they could have sent in units of OMON or some other law enforcement agencies or military police to make sure the transition was as peaceful as possible.
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Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.
Serious question: Why have they been threatened and by whom?
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Ah, so now you are claiming that you knew what I told you was true from the outset, that you did not believe the story to be true?
You understood, even as you wrote the thread title that what you were writing was untrue?
If so why not tell us that the story was untrue, that Akhmetov did NOT 'take on the seperatists'?
Why tell us stuff that you knew to be untrue?
I'll send a pm and consult with you before choosing a title next time, OK? Maybe, if you ask nicely, Manny will change it.
No need to consult with me, just with your conscience.
I was saddened that you are unwilling to say why, if you knew the story to be untrue, you chose a title that supported the contrary position.
If you thought the story was true and then changed your mind, why did you not say so above? You had the opportunity to do so.
So, no, don't ask me, no need to ask anyone; just be straight with the bloke in the mirror.
The thing is that this situation is interesting, it is something of a curve ball, although the breakdown of the state and moving toward the fuedal/warlord mode had been mentioned some days ago, this is the first case and I personally was surprised when it popped up. Your man on the NYT was fast getting his spin in first, beating other outlets in the West by a good 24 hours.
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Wife was talking to friend this week, who lives in Sevastopol.
They are scared, they are Ukrainian and own a home, if they leave, they will lose home, people have threatened them, yes food has tripled what you can get, things at the moment are not good, water food, money
all are issues. not as rosy as many are speaking.
Serious question: Why have they been threatened and by whom?
Don't know every detail, as we were discussing piece of land wife owns in Krym.
She wanted to leave to her son, but looks like she will lose it.
Her friends are strong Ukrainian, some local Pro Russians, know this and more than a few occasions,
have said " your day is coming" different little things like that. When the vote come, they
were told to stay home. They would prefer to leave, but fear they will lose all.
Work for many has slowed down, so making less, things cost more.
At the moment, things are not as calm as reports, make it out to be.,I am sure with time it will level out. Basically I get Ukrainian people, are not quite welcome in Krym right now.
Also with tensions in the east, this only adds to the whole thing across the country, I am sure.
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I have been told that in Ukraine if you have the funds you can pay off judges and they will sign the property over to you. There are many issues with property titles and the associated paperwork and the judge will even send in armed policemen to help in the eviction. Entire apartment buildings have been seized this way I am told. My MIL is having issues with a similar situation with the title at the moment. I would imagine the recent events in Crimea make things like this appealing to the criminals.
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Never read ukrainian news ;D
Just visit local forums and get information. Mariupol forum for example.
http://forum.0629.com.ua/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=256625&start=1350
sadly it is in Russian. People tell about things they were participators and how it was discribed in "honest" ukraine media.
Simferopol forum
http://simferopol.in/forum/92-pereezzhaem-v-rossiju/
Enjoy information from first hands :smokin:
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http://truba.com/video/407051/
That guy just took camera and made a trip about place he lives. A bit different from ukrain journalist view
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I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.
We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.
Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
The article is here:
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html
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I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.
We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.
Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
The article is here:
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html
They will never believe Russia is the cause of almost all the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, Agape. Even with evidence.
Now, mercenaries who have not been seen as of yet? Of course they exist (sarcasm).
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I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.
We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.
Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
The article is here:
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html
Obviously "us" do not include those who are under your fire now in Slavyansk and Donetcsk As well as people in Crym wish opposite YOU would leave your claims on their home for yoursleves
And those of you who are going to make your famouse borshch turning on gaz would have to "bother" all after all with what Russia thinks about your country , as well as those who are going to work here sending money back to Ukraina - you are just not in that position where you could afford to be on your own
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I do not care what Russians think "on the subject of Ukraine", neither I am going to be ever bothered what do they think about my Motherland or any of my compatriots.
We, most of us, want them to leave us alone.
Unfortunately, facts remain flagrant.
Ukrainian border guards at 3:40 a.m. on May 27 captured a van and two passenger cars filled with an assortment of arms that illegally crossed into Lugansk Oblast from Russia and which was part of a larger column of vehicles approaching the village of Astakhov.
The article is here:
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/border-guards-clash-with-armed-men-from-russia-one-severely-wounded-vehicles-seized-349574.html
They will never believe Russia is the cause of almost all the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, Agape. Even with evidence.
Now, mercenaries who have not been seen as of yet? Of course they exist (sarcasm).
Like you never be abel to admit that Easten areas possess own will and ideas with whom they wish to be And that your Maidawn was a start for all this mess
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When heavily armed men from another country are caught red handed shooting at Ukrainians, you lose any moral right to argue about Maidan.
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I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/
Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/
Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/
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Not to derail this thread, but perhaps this is what Andrew meant by American mercenaries in UA? http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/ (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/)
I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/ (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/)
Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/ (http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/)
Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/ (http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/)
In regards to the last link, I'm not qualified to offer a professional opinion. I do agree with our FSUW members for the most part however.
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I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/
Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/
Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/
All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Other than that, I don't think these articles contain anything that hasn't been discussed previously on the forum. Ukraine was hurting for money long before Yanu's departure and will continue to need help for quite some time to come. The Ukrainians never quite learned how to run their country efficiently, even with big brother's help.
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I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/
Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/
Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/
Really? You're quoting workers.org, the mouthpiece of the Workers World Party? The same WWP that used to view Albania as the epitome of a socialist paradise, to be emulated by Western capitalist nations, because "every person has a donkey"? The same WWP that viewed Tiananmen Square as a counter revolutionary rebellion and supported the Chinese suppression of it? The same WWP that supported Saddam Hussein, and currently supports Kim Jong-il?
Based on the WWP's stellar record of choosing the "right" side in any conflict, I suppose one could say "Yeah. After more than half a century of backing the wrong horse, we know now the outcome in Ukraine."
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I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/
Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/
Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/
Really? You're quoting workers.org, the mouthpiece of the Workers World Party? The same WWP that used to view Albania as the epitome of a socialist paradise, to be emulated by Western capitalist nations, because "every person has a donkey"? The same WWP that viewed Tiananmen Square as a counter revolutionary rebellion and supported the Chinese suppression of it? The same WWP that supported Saddam Hussein, and currently supports Kim Jong-il?
Based on the WWP's stellar record of choosing the "right" side in any conflict, I suppose one could say "Yeah. After more than half a century of backing the wrong horse, we know now the outcome in Ukraine."
I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
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All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.
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I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?
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I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?
fits the propaganda, on the other thread running 45 pages, of it :)
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I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?
Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.
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It absolutely amazes me the hatred coming from the Ukraine side of things. I must admit, prior to this year Ukraine was a country I was interested in visiting -- not now.
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Where is all this supposed hatred? My better half's family are ethnic Russians, living in Kiev. No one has threatened them, no one has suggested they move, no one has asked them to start speaking UKrainian, no one has told them to move to Russia, etc.
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It absolutely amazes me the hatred coming from the Ukraine side of things. I must admit, prior to this year Ukraine was a country I was interested in visiting -- not now.
Don't let a bit of forum guff put you off visiting such an amazing country.
Be like me saying I don't want visit France cos they're cowards, still has amazing food, wine, architecture and people.
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Yup, I even stopped by the UK, even though they don't drive on proper side of the road:)
Do like some of the cars they build, Vanquish anyone :thumbsup:
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I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?
Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.
Manny you are quick to point to us, othersidians about where we get our news from and
then spout off here. two way street eh?
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Dozens of Chechen militants have joined the fighting on the side of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine in a development that threatens to further escalate the violence in the country.
On Tuesday, half-a-dozen armed men approached by the Financial Times outside a Donetsk regional hospital confirmed that they were part of a Chechen unit that had travelled to Donetsk one week ago to fight alongside the separatists.
“Our president [Chechnya’s Ramzan Kadyrov] gave the order. They called us and we came,” one of the fighters, a 33-year-old named Zelimkhan, said. He added that the unit was called the “dikaya diviziya”, or savage division.
The men said one of their group had been killed and four seriously injured in the Ukrainian military’s air strike on the Donetsk airport on Monday as government forces sought to recapture the facility from separatists
“They’ve killed one of our guys and we will not forget this,” said Magomed, a 30 year-old Chechen fighter with a wolf tattooed across his chest. “We will take one hundred of their lives for the life our brother.”
Vladimir Putin, Russian president, has repeatedly denied that Russian forces are operating on-the-ground in eastern Ukraine and helping the separatists.
A Russian foreign ministry official said it was foreign media “hype” to report the presence of armed Chechens in eastern Ukraine.
“If they are Chechens, they are citizens of the Russian Federation. We can’t control where our citizens go,” he said. “But I can assure you that we have not sent our forces there.” . . .
Chechen fighters have a reputation for brutal war tactics, having fought two long and bloody wars for independence from Russia. Chechen extremists have been responsible for many of the terrorist attacks in Russia in recent years as part of their continued fight for their republic’s independence.
But other Chechen fighters have chosen to side with Mr Kadyrov, the republic’s authoritarian leader, who receives substantial financial assistance from Moscow in return for keeping the region under the Kremlin’s control.
Zelimkhan, the Chechen fighter, said he had travelled to Donetsk with 33 other militants from Grozny via the Russian city of Rostov and that they were stationed at a Donetsk military base alongside three local pro-Russian paramilitary groups, each of which had its own commander.
He added that there were 16 fighters from Ossetia, another republic in Russia’s North Caucasus, who had been in eastern Ukraine for a month and were fighting alongside them.
Asked whether there were Russian fighters on the ground in eastern Ukraine, Zelimkhan replied: “Am I not Russian?”
“The Russians can’t openly attack Ukraine,” he added. They’re not officially here. Everything is underground.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dcf5e16e-e5bc-11e3-aeef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32xYcHDpJ
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All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.
Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.
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I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?
Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.
Manny you are quick to point to us, othersidians about where we get our news from and
then spout off here. two way street eh?
Not really, I am critical of some othersideans for only listening to news from one nations source.
I find it curious many seem to ascribe credibility to the Kiev Post too. The paper was started by an American, is now owned by a British Indian guy whose Ukrainian wife hates Putin. Oh and most of the staff writers are American. Not much anti-Russian, pro-western sentiment there then. :chuckle:
I find sensible folks tend to read much, what comes out of both sides of an issue, and formulate an opinion based on what they think is the likely truth situated in the grey areas somewhere between the differing versions of events.
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All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.
Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.
Cant they get him back? He sounds just what America needs.
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I merely asked for opinions. I didn't do a site audit on the sources.
Why would you cite a largely discredited socialist website as some sort of authority on anything going on in Ukraine?
Let me be clear. I do not know that site, I merely encountered it. As I said, I did not do a site audit and I attributed no "authority" to it as you assert. Nice bit of word twisting though.
Manny you are quick to point to us, othersidians about where we get our news from and
then spout off here. two way street eh?
Not really, I am critical of some othersideans for only listening to news from one nations source.
I find it curious many seem to ascribe credibility to the Kiev Post too. The paper was started by an American, is now owned by a British Indian guy whose Ukrainian wife hates Putin. Oh and most of the staff writers are American. Not much anti-Russian, pro-western sentiment there then. :chuckle:
I find sensible folks tend to read much, what comes out of both sides of an issue, and formulate an opinion based on what they think is the likely truth situated in the grey areas somewhere between the differing versions of events.
Yes I agree, but lets be honest, you tend to believe only what comes out of Russia, or bad sources, on this one which you got called on. if anyone here, speaks about people on the ground and their opinions, they are dismissed as not knowing the real issues or to emotionally involved. If you read what most people pro Ukrainian are saying,
they realize it began and evolved from many sides, doing many things wrong.
But Russia's involvement has done nothing but increase tensions, cost lives and to steal land. no amount of sideway reporting can change that. They are not welcome and have no business in Ukraine. When you finally go to Ukraine and see a few parts of the country, maybe you will look at it from a different point of view. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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ladies and gentlemen, pleas remember that the objective reader is considering the words he is reading. Weighing the ideas suggested and the facts used in support of the argument.
The place where the words are published is pretty much irrelevant in consuming media objectively.
Put it this way, would you give more credibility to what you read in the New York Times, a mainstream publication recently famous for the inaccuracy and downright dishonesty of some of its reporting or Infowars of which the same can not be said?
Hmmm... trick question. There should be no difference. Both publish very useful material and one can learn much from both.
Think of the following for a moment:
It is lazy and inappropriate to try to suggest that a voice should not be listened to because of the room in which the voice can be heard.
If you have a criticism to make, an informed opinion based upon one's learning, then make the discussion about those things. The room, the colour of the wallpaper and the quality of its appointments are absolutely irrelevant.
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seem to ascribe credibility to the Kiev Post too. The paper was started by an American, is now owned by a British Indian guy whose Ukrainian wife hates Putin. Oh and most of the staff writers are American. Not much anti-Russian, pro-western sentiment there then.:chuckle:
The Kiev Post under its former American owner broke the Gongadze story. Its current editor in chief is American. Here is a list of its staff. Most have those barbaric Slavic surnames.
Brian Bonner, Chief Editor
Katya Gorchinskaya, Editor
Mark Rachkevych, Editor
Christopher J. Miller, Editor
Olga Rudenko, Editor
Ivan Verstyuk, Editor
Anastasia Forina, Staff Writer
Oksana Grytsenko, Staff Writer
Vlad Lavrov, Staff Writer
Maria Shamota, Staff Writer
Daryna Shevchenko, Staff Writer
Nataliya Trach, Staff Writer
Pavel Podufalov, Photo Editor
Kostyantyn Chernichkin, Photographer
Anastasia Vlasova, Photographer
Vladyslav Zakharenko, Chief Designer
ETA - Here is the last editorial from the Kiev Post before the election. Can anyone say they are in the pockets of Ukrainian politicians?
The hopeful news is that Ukrainians are eager to turn out and elect a new president, as early as May 25, judging by the mood of the voters, who seem to want to avoid a runoff vote on June 15.
The disappointing news is that the leading candidates – Petro Poroshenko, Yulia Tymoshenko and Sergiy Tigipko – are all part of the oligarch class that has left Ukraine in such a weakened state after 23 years of corruption, thieving and unaccountable, Soviet-style government.
The new generation of politicians and activists that came of age during the EuroMaidan Revolution didn’t field any candidates that caught the public’s imagination. Perhaps in normal times, they might have a chance. But Ukraine is holding a national election in crisis and during a compressed time frame. We look for new parliamentary elections in October, when we expect voters will remove the Communist Party, the disgraced elements of the Party of Regions and other lawmakers who aren’t serving their interests.
Judging by the polls, Poroshenko is the clear favorite. His detractors say that his victory is no reason for celebration, noting his role in the 1990s “oligarch” party of Viktor Medvedchuk, his role as a founder of the Party of Regions in 2002, led by the overthrown President Viktor Yanukvoych, and his service to the Yanukovych as economy minister.
Ukraine will need a president who does business cleanly, not corruptly, and not business as usual. The reason for the optimism, if Poroshenko is elected, is that he courageously took a stand in favor of the EuroMaidan Revolution early – well before victory was assured. His principled stance has earned him the wrath of Moscow, where his Roshen confectionary assets remain frozen, yet another badge of honor with most voters who saw other oligarchs waffle until the very end. The next president will be Ukraine’s fifth. If he governs like a public servant, not a power-obsessed ruler, he will be the first president to do so. He should also never forget that he can be removed by the will of the people. Just ask Yanukovych.
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Think of the following for a moment:
It is lazy and inappropriate to try to suggest that a voice should not be listened to because of the room in which the voice can be heard.
It is equally lazy to quote a source because if spews one's own views (note - the piece was a de facto editorial, not news), without looking at the background. Sort of like trusting your virginity to a well known rapist. Or taking the headlines in Soviet era Pravdas at face value.
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All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.
Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.
Cant they get him back? He sounds just what America needs.
He ran for president several times. A bit controversial, but yes, exactly what America needs in my opinion. A shame he will be retiring soon after serving his country for many years. Our next hope is his son Rand Paul.
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I am curious to what Ukrainians and some of you American folks with big opinions about Ukraine, think about this article by Ron Paul: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/ron-paul/cash-for-the-ukrainian-junta/
Or this on Info Wars: http://www.infowars.com/ukrainian-junta-concedes-to-imf-looting-plan/
Or how accurate you think this was weeks later: http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/04/15/cia-head-visits-kiev-ukraine-junta-opens-assault-southeast/
All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
The top Internet giant Matt Drudge of the Drudge Report takes them serious. He links to them all the time as sources for breaking news. The controlled Left and the controlled Right media generally steer clear of them. As do the politicians who are part of the good old boy network. Ron Paul who marches to the the beat of his own drummer is on the Infowars radio program of Alex Jones all the time. Alex however yesterday hinted he does not ask Ron's son Rand US Senator and leading Republican candidate for president in 2016 to come on his program. He is doing him a favor. Alex Jones has a bombastic style of delivery. If you want to see then check out his most famous moment with UK's Pierce Morgan. Catch it about 50 seconds in
It's funny! ;D
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All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.
Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.
100% true
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Man shooting into the trade union house on May 2 in Odessa arrested.
http://dumskaya.net/news/v-odesse-zadergali-sotnika-mikolu-kotoryj-strely-036166/ (http://dumskaya.net/news/v-odesse-zadergali-sotnika-mikolu-kotoryj-strely-036166/)
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As for the first article from Ron Paul. He has some good things to say and he has a following for sure but he is too extreme to ever get the presidency. Probably half what he said is correct and the other is just his quirky way. Alex Jones is as extreme as you get and does nobody any favor being on his show. Drudge is an equal opportunity news site. He will post crazy speakers left and right.
The second article is just the way things are. When you get a bail out you must follow the terms of the lender. It will be painful. It is your tax money after all.
The third article is merely propaganda from the terrorist side. Last week the Strelkov commander guy was asking for women to volunteer because the few he is getting are criminals or just not interested in fighting, just want to take a gun home for protection. We may find out that the actual rebels only amounted to hundreds or a thousand when this is over. And, the people will likely be happy to have peace, pension payments and order once again.
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All 3 of these sources are so far outside the mainstream most folks don't take them seriously.
Wasn't Ron Paul a US presidential candidate? Thats pretty mainstream I would have thought. Info Wars is also a pretty well-known site.
Ron Paul was a presidential candidate for the Republican Party of which he is a member but he had no chance of winning the nomination. He has a group of vocal supporters but far more critics. He is in favour of reducing US military spending by large amounts and reducing US military presence globally by similar amounts, something most mainstream Republicans are definitely against.
Cant they get him back? He sounds just what America needs.
He ran for president several times. A bit controversial, but yes, exactly what America needs in my opinion. A shame he will be retiring soon after serving his country for many years. Our next hope is his son Rand Paul.
Wrong on one point. Ron Paul retired from the House of Representatives in 2012. He now is active with his organization "Campaign for Liberty" and endorses various candidates that he feels are representatives of the Constitution. The Republicans are made up of the new Libertarian Republicans (Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and Mike Lee) and the old Neo-con Republicans (John Mc Cain, Lindsey Gram, John Bonner and Mitch Mc Connoll). They do not like each other. Mc Cain who was over in Ukraine during the Winter Olympics stirring up trouble called the Libertarian Republicans "wacko birds." Right now there is a struggle on who will come out on top. The establishment left or right prefers the Neo-cons because it will be business as usual.
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Think of the following for a moment:
It is lazy and inappropriate to try to suggest that a voice should not be listened to because of the room in which the voice can be heard.
It is equally lazy to quote a source because if spews one's own views (note - the piece was a de facto editorial, not news), without looking at the background. Sort of like trusting your virginity to a well known rapist. Or taking the headlines in Soviet era Pravdas at face value.
So, you are suggesting that to write an editorial is somehow wrong?
Whilst I absolutely encourage people to think for themselves I also know that I, for one, learn much by reading the analyses (editorials) of others.
Is there some good reason why one should NOT link to content with which one agrees?
As you, Halo already know, from your professional training, it is important to consider the viewpoints of those with whom one is predisposed to disagree. One seldom learns as much from those with whom one agrees than one does from consideration of that with which one is predisposed to disagree.
You know full well of the effectiveness as a learning technique of response to a challenge. Would you want people here to be less able than you to cope with intellectual challenge? If not why try to mislead people here?
Again, why would we discount what a person has to say simply on the basis of the room in which they say it?
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Again, why would we discount what a person has to say simply on the basis of the room in which they say it?
There is a difference between opposing opinions and propaganda. It's akin to accepting any version of the "truth" in Pravda circa 1975.
The WWP is stuck in a past that disappeared over two decades ago. Unless, of course, North Korea has replaced Albania as their role model.
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For weeks, rumors have flown about the foreign fighters involved in the deepening conflict in Ukraine’s troubled east, each one stranger than the last: mercenaries from an American company, Blackwater; Russian special forces; and even Chechen soldiers of fortune.
Yet there they were on Tuesday afternoon, resting outside a hospital here: Chechen men with automatic rifles, some bearing bloodstained bandages, protecting their wounded comrades in a city hospital after a firefight with the Ukrainian Army. . .
Many here say the fighters speak to the shadowy nature of a conflict that sometimes seems manufactured. “It’s irritating but not very surprising,” said Stanislav Kucherenko, 32, a massage therapist who lives near the airport and woke to the sound of shelling Tuesday. “It shows that this war is not clean. It is artificially created. If this is an uprising by the Donetsk People’s Republic, what are foreigners doing here?”
The men are Donetsk’s worst kept secret. Several appeared on a CNN report at a military parade this weekend, and others were caught on a Vice News video, saying, “We are volunteers, Chechens, Afghans and Muslims who have come to protect Russia, to protect Russians, to protect the interests of this country.”
It is unclear what portion of the rebel fighters the men represent, whom they work for or whether they were paid. The soldier at the hospital Tuesday said all the men were volunteers, a commonly given explanation but one locals say is not convincing.
“They say they are patriots,” Mr. Kucherenko said of the foreign fighters. “I don’t think there are that many patriots.”
The Chechen fighter at the hospital, who declined to give his name, seemed to be losing his resolve. The unit had a commander who had given an order to stay and fight for the city. Otherwise, he said, he would be happy to go home. “I haven’t slept for four nights,” he said, resting his head on a wooden bench outside the hospital with a Kalashnikov across his knees. . .
Many pro-Russian residents praised the foreign fighters, saying they were all that stood between them and what they saw as a hostile Ukrainian force from Kiev. Yevgeny Matvichyuk, 26, who is from the embattled city of Slovyansk, said he had spoken with two foreign fighters, one from North Ossetia, a republic in Russia, and another from Tajikistan in Central Asia.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/world/europe/ukraine.html
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There have been known Russian and foreign fighters in Ukraine for some time now. You cannot argue this.
http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/ (http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/)
If you do a little digging you can even see pictures of the men that were released. Very hard and seasoned looking men.
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there are pictures for someone who are blind and deaf.
On these photos only “ unarmed civilian people ” in Donetsk, which is my loved motherland.
And someone told me that the Ukrainian government must speak only peacefully with them !
Foock, they came to my country to destroy its and you say to me "only peacefully".
(http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/7c4a5d36e7481e3ac18c88c5f4945893.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=7c4a5d36e7481e3ac18c88c5f4945893)
(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/d37792c0653a24a7ab0c036d34f2e70a.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=d37792c0653a24a7ab0c036d34f2e70a)
(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/3ce576306acce51f1bf63966a6ccb0b0.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=3ce576306acce51f1bf63966a6ccb0b0)
(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/95f1f2bab1936b09c94749d0b78eab63.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=95f1f2bab1936b09c94749d0b78eab63)
(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/c7a9905220bb077b80d0d2f39eb565cc.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=c7a9905220bb077b80d0d2f39eb565cc)
(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/0a1280b7b39b09ee2657fb48acca89c4.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=0a1280b7b39b09ee2657fb48acca89c4)
(http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/5a9424e7405ab9c2dd1103802b042fd6.jpg)[/URL
(http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=5a9424e7405ab9c2dd1103802b042fd6)
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(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/0a1280b7b39b09ee2657fb48acca89c4.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=0a1280b7b39b09ee2657fb48acca89c4)
(http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/5a9424e7405ab9c2dd1103802b042fd6.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=5a9424e7405ab9c2dd1103802b042fd6)
(http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/acd8ae7b7928e178788be26c15a388c3.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=acd8ae7b7928e178788be26c15a388c3)
(http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/127467fba21d42edfc5b1b00bcb73140.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=127467fba21d42edfc5b1b00bcb73140)
(http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/226f6bbb6468e382fdec884e2a598a7a.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=226f6bbb6468e382fdec884e2a598a7a)
Read more: http://mvasin.org.ua/2014/05/737
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Mary Poppins,
In reply #837, I provided the proof that you requested. The link reveals much about the inhumanity of the writer but you haven't commented. I am left to wonder if you read and understood the comments below the photos.
For your convenience, I have copied the post in question below.
Someone else still talks about peaceful protests? Kiev junta needs promised money tranche too much it is the cost of it.
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/millaa/10304633_737026209680795_7573601001055922175_n_zps97e28f3a.jpg)
One of the "peaceful protestors" still wearing his ski mask to try to hide his real identity; a trouble making soldier from Russia. Burn in hell, invaders. Keep invading, Ukrainians know how to fight back against thugs, murderers, invaders from Russia.
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Again, why would we discount what a person has to say simply on the basis of the room in which they say it?
There is a difference between opposing opinions and propaganda. It's akin to accepting any version of the "truth" in Pravda circa 1975.
The WWP is stuck in a past that disappeared over two decades ago. Unless, of course, North Korea has replaced Albania as their role model.
No, Halo, as you know, when you have your sensible head on, you consider what you are reading and weigh it against what you already know, what you know to be possible and what can reasonably be expected of people. This is basic stuff and you know it, so why do you ignore these basics that you learned at school and use every day at work and at the same time try to get other people to do the same as you are now doing?
I confess, you are disappointing me.
It is OK to have a viewpoint but when your viewpoint is being furthered by your fantasies and inability to see what is in front of you then I wonder what is going on. I winder why you are acting as you are because I KNOW that this is not normal for you.
You KNOW that to tell people to discount what is written in a particular place is not helpful to them and runs counter to your knowledge, training and beliefs.
How can you (or anyone) be objective when you (they) shove fingers in ears, close eyes and say 'take me to a happy place, take me to a happy place!'
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By the way, I am sure that many people already know this stuff but I have seen that some people are getting confused.
In the Donetsk area for some weeks there has been a militia operating under the name of Vostok Battalion. While they have been comprised of the normal mixture of local men, including former military and people from other parts of the world, again including former military, the name is an informal one.
The confusion that is arising is that there used to be, in Russia, a Vostok Battalion comprised primarily of men from Chechnya, including a load who used to be fighting against the Russian military and who changed sides.
The Vostok Battalion was disbanded back in 2008 under pressure from the Chechnyan leader, Ramzan Kadryov.
It seems that there are some in the Donetsk based militia grouping who are from Chechnya but, given the situation whereby Kadryov has been aiding the Russian government, particularly in respect of the journalists taken by the junta and the background to the disbanding of the Russian army Vostok Battalion that this unit is NOT anything to do with either Russia or Chechnya. If it were then the name used would have been ANYTHING but Vostok! It is interesting to read up on the background to the disbanding.
Oh, as usual, when looking at the Donetsk based Vostok Battalion take a look at the fatigues and more particularly the boots (or more accurately the lack of them).
It seems that either the Ukrainian army has been very, very careless or the Russians have been getting lost driving back from the border area because the DPR have been finding cool materiel left by the side of the road. Apparently they picked up some Igla-S anti aircraft missiles and several ZU-23 anti aircraft systems just sitting on the side of the road in unused condition. I wonder if the careless people left behind the instruction manuals for these things?
Not being an armchair general, so others will know more than me, but it seems that both these systems are very useful against armour and buildings not just against aircraft.
Perhaps fund raising is going very well because these weapons are not cheap (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LnK0_wPGPvYJ:www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/issueareas/manpads/black_market_prices.pdf+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ee)
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Mary Poppins,
In reply #837, I provided the proof that you requested. The link reveals much about the inhumanity of the writer but you haven't commented. I am left to wonder if you read and understood the comments below the photos.
For your convenience, I have copied the post in question below.
Someone else still talks about peaceful protests? Kiev junta needs promised money tranche too much it is the cost of it.
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/millaa/10304633_737026209680795_7573601001055922175_n_zps97e28f3a.jpg)
One of the "peaceful protestors" still wearing his ski mask to try to hide his real identity; a trouble making soldier from Russia. Burn in hell, invaders. Keep invading, Ukrainians know how to fight back against thugs, murderers, invaders from Russia.
I am sorry. I am not an ignorant woman.
That story was very tragic and explain where was the truth or semi truth and who have done it is so hard to explain..
I have an eyewitness account this stories with photos from the beginning to the end what happened in Odessa but unfortunately only in Russian. To translate it all I haven't time
The Ukraine and Russia have two different ways to ambiguous interpretation this tragedy , Where is the 100% truth, unfortunately, noone does know.
So, if you are interested I can post again here this true story of a resident of Odessa on the photos.
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By the way, I am sure that many people already know this stuff but I have seen that some people are getting confused.
In the Donetsk area for some weeks there has been a militia operating under the name of Vostok Battalion. While they have been comprised of the normal mixture of local men, including former military and people from other parts of the world, again including former military, the name is an informal one.
The confusion that is arising is that there used to be, in Russia, a Vostok Battalion comprised primarily of men from Chechnya, including a load who used to be fighting against the Russian military and who changed sides.
The Vostok Battalion was disbanded back in 2008 under pressure from the Chechnyan leader, Ramzan Kadryov.
Vostok as far as I understand means "East", so this is certainly a possibility. I am sure more will come out over time.
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No, Halo, as you know, when you have your sensible head on, you consider what you are reading and weigh it against what you already know, what you know to be possible and what can reasonably be expected of people. This is basic stuff and you know it, so why do you ignore these basics that you learned at school and use every day at work and at the same time try to get other people to do the same as you are now doing?
I confess, you are disappointing me.
It is OK to have a viewpoint but when your viewpoint is being furthered by your fantasies and inability to see what is in front of you then I wonder what is going on. I winder why you are acting as you are because I KNOW that this is not normal for you.
You KNOW that to tell people to discount what is written in a particular place is not helpful to them and runs counter to your knowledge, training and beliefs.
How can you (or anyone) be objective when you (they) shove fingers in ears, close eyes and say 'take me to a happy place, take me to a happy place!'
My inability? Numerous Western reporters who interviewed pro Russian separatists in Kharkov learned they were being paid $40 an hour for their participation, spoke to Russians who crossed the border into Ukraine to fight with pro Russian separatists, and were told by those Russians they are being paid, and you accuse me of believing in fantasies?
The whole "pro separatist" camp has been inflamed by Russia, the Russian president was on record early in the manufactured crisis (before Crimea) speculating on Russia moving into Ukraine because of these protests, and yet somehow, I am the one believing in fantasies. LOL.
As for the site, what was posted was propaganda, I read it. I would, in fact, dismiss anything from a site I know is established for propaganda purposes, particularly one which views North Korea favorably, and in fact, dismissed Western concerns about North Korea's nuclear capability as fantasy to scare the Western public. If you want to view such a site favorably, go ahead. But don't expect me to do the same.
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Guys, look at this video!
The Russian mass media and many bloggers on Internet say and write that in South-East of Ukraine all people wish to separate from Ukraine. No, it’s not true! Look at this woman. She is natively Russian but has lived in Ukraine. So, the Ukraine is her motherland at the moment!
Most my compatriots are terrified by terrorists now (you could see it on my photos which I posted above) but this woman is so brave! Why is so? people who had not been agreed with their policy could be shooted or taken like hostages by the Russian or chechenian mercenaries.
I believe that very very soon my compatriots will be wake up from Russian propaganda and we will be able to live in the peaceful Ukraine again
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Cap off on the thief . Ukrainophobe Michael Weller subtly noticed one of the main features of his Russian people, typical , unfortunately, for many Ukrainian . He writes that people with slave mentality consider their shackles guarantee stability. Apparently, the way it is . Many people like to be serfs. In Russia - the majority. In Ukraine - too much. But every day they become smaller. Continuing national genesis, others are Ukrainian . Area Hrushevskoho Kandal government , war in the East and South - all of these disease processes has forever changed the pulse of the blood of the people. More free people who do not need shackles stability , but they break these shackles . And broke through, I know ... And what do you think on a Sunday morning ?
генезис
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Guys, look at this video!
The Russian mass media and many bloggers on Internet say and write that in South-East of Ukraine all people wish to separate from Ukraine. No, it’s not true! Look at this woman. She is natively Russian but has lived in Ukraine. So, the Ukraine is her motherland at the moment!
Most my compatriots are terrified by terrorists now (you could see it on my photos which I posted above) but this woman is so brave! Why is so? people who had not been agreed with their policy could be shooted or taken like hostages by the Russian or chechenian mercenaries.
I believe that very very soon my compatriots will be wake up from Russian propaganda and we will be able to live in the peaceful Ukraine again
Don't screw the facts - nobody claims that 100% of population possess pro-Russia view points One woman shows her disagree? So what? She was not be burned like those in Odessa - that's the FACT what happened in "peaceful" Ukraine with those who were disagree with what you support and which you preffer to forget too quickly
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Halo, you are just lying to yourself now.
Look, put it this way. If the words you claim you can't read because of where they are published were published elsewhere you say you'd then read them?
That's ridiculous and you know it.
The thing you can be sure of is that most of what you read is in service of one narrative or another. Given what you told us you need read, listen to or see almost nothing because almost everything, as I said, is in support of one narrative or another. Your task if you wish to be well informed is to consume analytically. it also helps if you don't try to, as you have done, taken a 'side' in what is, in truth, a false dichotomy.
No single source gives you a full picture - unless you have already chosen to disregard objectivity. When you reject information or analysis simply based upon the web page you are choosing to disregard objectivity. But remember when you started your trip down this rabbit hole you were claiming a different reason for not reading this article?
Do you remember where you started?
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Andrew you only see the Russian side, maybe you should take your own advice.
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Guys, look at this video!
The Russian mass media and many bloggers on Internet say and write that in South-East of Ukraine all people wish to separate from Ukraine. No, it’s not true! Look at this woman. She is natively Russian but has lived in Ukraine. So, the Ukraine is her motherland at the moment!
Most my compatriots are terrified by terrorists now (you could see it on my photos which I posted above) but this woman is so brave! Why is so? people who had not been agreed with their policy could be shooted or taken like hostages by the Russian or chechenian mercenaries.
I believe that very very soon my compatriots will be wake up from Russian propaganda and we will be able to live in the peaceful Ukraine again
Don't screw the facts - nobody claims that 100% of population possess pro-Russia view points One woman shows her disagree? So what? She was not be burned like those in Odessa - that's the FACT what happened in "peaceful" Ukraine with those who were disagree with what you support and which you preffer to forget too quickly
I wonder why do kremlin trolls know everything of the Ukraine? Have you been to the Ukraine and Odessa? Were you present on the spot there, personally?
Tell me, “thanks” I showed this video for you because your gebbels TV doesn’t allow seeing even it.
I am sorry of you. Poor Russians!
PS: are you completely sure that those people were burned banderovcami ? If yes, where is the official proof? Emotions from your gebbels TV can throw out in the rubbish.
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What Marry Popins? All victims in Odessa are Putin's fake like you wish to believe? Or they just burned themselves like your free Ukrainian mass media sources told you? Have YOU yourself been in all those hot spots( doubt you were personally even at one) in the Ukraine to claim exclusive right on truth? PS there are enough videos in net about Odessa awful event to see how supporters for union Ukraine behaved And for sure it had not been done without Kiev ( not Moscow you know) ruling
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I am sorry for the people of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts. As I mentioned up thread I have already met one refugee family from eastern Ukraine.
The Russian separatists are NOT terrorists. Sure some of them are being paid but so were some of the rabble in the Maidan...
Russian Spetsnaz are operating in eastern Ukraine. The separatists do not have access to surface to air missiles to down a helicopter. I have no doubt whatsoever that "western advisers" are helping the new chocolate president.
I do not depend on news reporting for my opinions, our friends and relatives LIVE in Ukraine.
IMHO ALL the foreign powers should back off. There needs to be a negotiated settlement. The alternative is escalating violence. Poroshenko cannot crush the Russian separatists. Russian public opinion would demand Putin to intervene. All it will take is a serious confrontation where hundreds of people are killed to trigger a major Russian intervention. I sincerely hope that does not happen...
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I have no doubt US military advisors are in Kiev either.
I too, have acquaintances living in these areas, and I suspect the Ukrainians posting here do as well. That is what underscores their attitudes.
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What Marry Popins? All victims in Odessa are Putin's fake like you wish to believe? Or they just burned themselves like your free Ukrainian mass media sources told you? Have YOU yourself been in all those hot spots( doubt you were personally even at one) in the Ukraine to claim exclusive right on truth? PS there are enough videos in net about Odessa awful event to see how supporters for union Ukraine behaved And for sure it had not been done without Kiev ( not Moscow you know) ruling
Haven’t seen any reason speaking with people who are blind and deaf.
I see only emotions! Noone showed a convictive answer yet or the proofs. Where is the competent and convincing proofs? Who is the ultimate truth? You or your putin? Has your putin already said to you that this tragedy will be investigated by the International tribunal?
in conclusion I'd like to say, "in any way your putin hyilo"
And most russians have pravoslavie golovnogo mozga now.
Kiss all russians and enough isteriki...
Odessa chxat' xotela na vas vsex! tiphat
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(http://s20.rimg.info/e5e2a5931369af59b70b7119f68fec2a.gif) что Мерри. не выдержала? да бесполезно разговаривать с глухими
только время расставит все на свои места. Только через время они поймут что свои ус аревшие устои бывшего совка уже в этой войне не приемлемы.и только через время и ситуацию ( когда к ним в дом придут так же кто то качать права) они поймут как были они не правы. обычный русский прагматизм и реально ничего святого. а сейчас остается только молча наблюдать за их истерией. до таких никогда еще ни кто не достучался. они ведь всегда правы даже если это не так.
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What Marry Popins? All victims in Odessa are Putin's fake like you wish to believe? Or they just burned themselves like your free Ukrainian mass media sources told you? Have YOU yourself been in all those hot spots( doubt you were personally even at one) in the Ukraine to claim exclusive right on truth? PS there are enough videos in net about Odessa awful event to see how supporters for union Ukraine behaved And for sure it had not been done without Kiev ( not Moscow you know) ruling
Haven’t seen any reason speaking with people who are blind and deaf.
I see only emotions! Noone showed a convictive answer yet or the proofs. Where is the competent and convincing proofs? Who is the ultimate truth? You or your putin? Has your putin already said to you that this tragedy will be investigated by the International tribunal?
in conclusion I'd like to say, "in any way your putin hyilo"
And most russians have pravoslavie golovnogo mozga now.
Kiss all russians and enough isteriki...
Odessa chxat' xotela na vas vsex! tiphat
I do not think that a person like you have a right to say for the whole Odessa - no need to add a shame in addition to what already happened there wich changed an opinion of that city - not to good.
As for "proofs" I am speaking about then there are enough of them on youtube - Of course who stood behinde all of these must be invistigated ( Ukrainian free mass media version that people burned themselves didn't pass because was too unreal even for Ukraininas) But it's you who indeed blind and deft not to see how a pro- western crowd reacted to a view of people on fire - really SHAME and scarry for their joy. - exactly because it was not some trained guys who just were "shaped" to kill but COMMON people who were supposed to fight for democracy and civilized life style.
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(http://s20.rimg.info/e5e2a5931369af59b70b7119f68fec2a.gif) что Мерри. не выдержала? да бесполезно разговаривать с глухими
Ну так от вас ничего конструктивно и не услышишь, а отвечать на ваши "аргументы", которые находятся на уровне подзаборной брани - это себя не уважать
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Одессa-мамa смеется с вас
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От вас тоже одна разруха и горе, но скоро вы будете пожинать плоды вашей "помощи"которую у вас никто не просил. А нееее, это попросил тот кто удрал от собственного народа. Вот ваш гитлер и старается помочь убойной силой..
Лучше поплачьте о тех людях, которых вы убиваете в Дадгестане вот уже более 10-ти лет. Или за них кремтроллям денюшка не капает? Не так ли, кремлевские тролли?
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(http://s20.rimg.info/e5e2a5931369af59b70b7119f68fec2a.gif) что Мерри. не выдержала? да бесполезно разговаривать с глухими
Ну так от вас ничего конструктивно и не услышишь, а отвечать на ваши "аргументы", которые находятся на уровне подзаборной брани - это себя не уважать
а смысл вам что то объяснять? вы же кроме своего зомбоящика и интернет каши которую вам подносят. ни кого не хотите слышать. кто ни будь вообще хоть понимает что происходит? и почему гибнут люди? у вас одни только эмоции. какие все бандеровцы плохие. а то что много из этих бандеровцев ваши же соотечественники. вам по фигу. вы слышите только себя.и то что вам вложили в ваши гнилые умы.
кстати об инфо которую вам преподносят. я попробую найти те кадры которые показывали на днях. убитый на дороге и другие убийства. которые были несколько лет назад и не у нас. сейчас вам преподносят как реале именно наших дней и на украине. а эти жестокости были в чечне и абхазии. и это уже найдено и доказано. идут на все что бы настроить разногласия дальше и дестабилизацию.
Ладно Мери она в другой стране как и многие из вас. так вы же считаете что вы знаете лучше как мы живем чем мы сами. ну смешно. правда.вы пытаетесь доказывать ту правду о которой вам именно сделали этот гнусный коктейль. и вы не хотите просто слышать тех кто живет именно на украине. ну да. вам кумовьям с погреба виднее . и даже свечку держите правда?
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(http://s20.rimg.info/e5e2a5931369af59b70b7119f68fec2a.gif) что Мерри. не выдержала? да бесполезно разговаривать с глухими
Ну так от вас ничего конструктивно и не услышишь, а отвечать на ваши "аргументы", которые находятся на уровне подзаборной брани - это себя не уважать
хочешь конструктивного разговора? хорошо. чуть позже присоединюсь. только не уверенна что это кому то поможет понять хоть 10 % того что у нас происходит. как бы не оказалась пустой тратой времени.
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Ладин, вот здесь информация, как работает расейская пропaганда и сколько на это ухайдокивается денег: http://deratisator.livejournal.com/239401.html
Хотя, до сих пор инвалиды афганских, чеченских и еще даже инвалиды Великой отечественной столько лет влачат жалкое существование. На это средств нет, а вот на грязную пропaганду есть. Зато "нашидеды воевали" "крымнаш", "в Украине одни бандеровцы" ну и т.д.
Они еще не знают, что "России", как таковой не существует, а вот "московия" да была и там жили не русичи, а финно-мордово-угры, которые платили дань Турецкой Орде 400 лет. Так где русские? Тьфу, у них все, как не у людей, даже национальность у них "имя прилагательное, а не "существительное", как у всех нормальных людей.
Вот и живут они шиворот-навыворот и носятся со своим дутым величием, потому что ущербная нация.
Даже Гугл об этом говорит
(http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/06/93399801565ab91fcd2d6fab9464a28b.jpg) (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=93399801565ab91fcd2d6fab9464a28b)
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да. это говорит только о совковости. приученность к послушанию и зомбированию. ведь посмотри кто спорит? наше поколение. молодые в это не вступают. и не потому что я такая грубая. потому что даже 30 лет это пережитки прошлого в воспитании и совковая школа. история в школах. каждая страна свою историю преподносит в лучших красках. разве не так? даже ошибки они приукрашают так что не сразу поймешь все реалии того времени. Поэтому читая эти все перепетии. у меня родилась одна идея как попробовать это все донести. да. они реально не знают что русь началась с Киева ))) а значит они все бендеры. ))) и сами себя называют фашистами )))
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а что бы начать тогда с истории. то посмотрите на истинную русь прошлых веков.
вот она истинная русь. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Kievan_Rus_in_1237_%28ru%29.svg/640px-Kievan_Rus_in_1237_%28ru%29.svg.png)
Русь накануне Батыева нашествия
Карта Киевской Руси в 1237 г.
а все остальное были уже освоение земель.
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IMHO ALL the foreign powers should back off. There needs to be a negotiated settlement. The alternative is escalating violence. I sincerely hope that does not happen...
The voice of reason. Lets hope a settlement can be negotiated before the violence escaltes, because the precipice is approaching.
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https://www.youtube.com//v/UrKboCnAUxs#t=382
They were used as condoms...
А ведь их предупреждали, что так и будет. ;D
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https://www.youtube.com//v/UrKboCnAUxs#t=382
They were used as condoms...
А ведь их предупреждали, что так и будет. ;D
Не надо злорадствовать. использовали тех кто хотел быть использованным. ;D
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IMHO ALL the foreign powers should back off. There needs to be a negotiated settlement. The alternative is escalating violence.
I don't recall that happening in Russia during the last Chechen War. Putin hit hard, hit often at the Chechens despite international calls for a negotiated settlement. Putin made sure it would be a long time before Chechnya would be a problem for Russia. Why would Putin suddenly back off in Ukraine and leave it to the locals to settle the problem themselves?
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(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/millaa/58a300614489_zps3a1bd6d3.jpg)
ukrainian history in short ;D
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Не надо злорадствовать.
С чего бы то не надо? ;D Да и это разве злорадство? Злорадство это вот: здорово, что в Доме профсоюзов столько колорадов пожгли.
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Не надо злорадствовать.
С чего бы то не надо? ;D Да и это разве злорадство? Злорадство это вот: здорово, что в Доме профсоюзов столько колорадов пожгли.
это именно злорадство. обиженных на то что больше не дают денег на майдане много так же как и у вас. но майдан еще не разошелся . даже новая власть демонтировать его не может. :chuckle: а таких как ты ставишь полный донбасс бегает с оружием в руках за идею все еще вернуть януковичей ;D и то что ты ставишь по сравнению с вашими войнами. не сравнимо. у нас все эти возгласы за 23 года впервые идут с кровопролитием.. а сколько войн провела Россия за эти 23 года ? давай по считаем?при чем с человеческими жертвами. а почему ты об этом ни разу не сказала? так что ненадо нам ваших а вы говорили. еще ничего не закончено.
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Не надо злорадствовать.
С чего бы то не надо? ;D Да и это разве злорадство? Злорадство это вот: здорово, что в Доме профсоюзов столько колорадов пожгли.
это именно злорадство. обиженных на то что больше не дают денег на майдане много так же как и у вас. но майдан еще не разошелся . даже новая власть демонтировать его не может. :chuckle: а таких как ты ставишь полный донбасс бегает с оружием в руках за идею все еще вернуть януковичей ;D и то что ты ставишь по сравнению с вашими войнами. не сравнимо. у нас все эти возгласы за 23 года впервые идут с кровопролитием.. а сколько войн провела Россия за эти 23 года ? давай по считаем?при чем с человеческими жертвами. а почему ты об этом ни разу не сказала? так что ненадо нам ваших а вы говорили. еще ничего не закончено.
а ты у нас, что, считать умеешь? :chuckle: Как писать можешь, уже все знают.
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Хорошее видео, разоблачающее в очередной раз ложь большинства российских СМИ.
для друзей и родственников из России
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(http://cs7001.vk.me/c540105/v540105733/26ffd/1SRGjnhm0oI.jpg)
кстати я могу еще добавить сюда чехословацкий, словенский хорватский. разница будет так же не велика.
хотя. чего уж там...Выдумывать то что уже давно существует? так какие же вы русские славяне?
(http://cs617418.vk.me/v617418998/a5b4/38Fsx-XgxLw.jpg)
какие же вы все таки кровожадные. свои подвиги вы упорно не хотите видеть ))) вот только не известно за какую тут чеченкую написано за первую или вторую? а абхазия а осетия, а сколько еще мелких скрытых фактов? вы бы у себя сначала порядки навели а потом нашу жестокость бы обсуждали.
(http://images.myshared.ru/45291/slide_14.jpg)
и это конечно же не весь список )))
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лучше послушайте что умный дядька говорит :chuckle:
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The Russian separatists are NOT terrorists. Sure some of them are being paid but so were some of the rabble in the Maidan...
Russian Spetsnaz are operating in eastern Ukraine. The separatists do not have access to surface to air missiles to down a helicopter. I have no doubt whatsoever that "western advisers" are helping the new chocolate president.
I do not depend on news reporting for my opinions, our friends and relatives LIVE in Ukraine.
IMHO ALL the foreign powers should back off. There needs to be a negotiated settlement. The alternative is escalating violence. Poroshenko cannot crush the Russian separatists. Russian public opinion would demand Putin to intervene. All it will take is a serious confrontation where hundreds of people are killed to trigger a major Russian intervention. I sincerely hope that does not happen...
We also LIVE in Ukraine, you know. In different regions of mother-Ukraine.
One University friend of mine lives in Slaviansk, another one is in Sevastopol, also in Lvov, Kherson. My parents' best friends live in Donetsk, et cetera, et cetera.
Thus, we do NOT depend on mass media either. Every day we exchange with what we see with our own eyes.
So called Russian separatist (if you mean Ukraine citizens, not those ones who are factually Russian Federation citizens) is a concept that demands a long explanation and analysis what has got roots in the very distant past. I'd leave it aside at the moment because this is not our biggest concern. Sooner or later Ukraine will overcome the influence of communist legacy and oligarchy what has been blossoming for a long while. This is our interior matter.
What troubles us much today is the Kremlin interference. This IS exactly what we do not need nor want. There's much evidence of Russian Federation presence in Ukraine. It has been discussed on forum at least hundred times. International institutions such as UN, OSCE, NATO have them, too.
I wouldn't like to repeat it over and over again, I just want to show you flash mob what Ukrainian patriots from the Eastern Ukraine organized today.
You can see their passports with the names of the cities and towns where they live.
One can find it on twitter, here's the link:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassPeopleFromPutin?src=hash
And I also attach the shots in this thread.
Makeevka, Donetsk region
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/3/b/3b78d14-01.jpg)
Donetsk
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/4/9/491cc6f-02.jpg)
Lisichansk, Lugansk region
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/5/3/5344538-03.jpg)
Lugansk
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/8/c/8c6299e-05.jpg)
Slaviansk, Donetsk region
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/a/0/a0b4639-07.jpg)
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/a/9/a94f120-08.jpg)
(http://life.img.pravda.com/images/doc/c/0/c0b7ce1-10.jpg)
And there're plenty of them! We want to decide ourselves how to live, not anyone on our behalf.
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Thank you Agape, you are representative of the voice of Ukraine, not the Putin apologists that inhabit this forum and support the
freedom fighters Russian terrorists intent on destabilising Ukraine.
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(http://cs608629.vk.me/v608629754/26b3/ggAFWqspWYk.jpg)
Ukraine '22 without war. but Russia?
1992-Transnistria
1994-1996 - the first Chechen
1999 - 2009 Second Chechen
2008 - South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Georgia
2014 - Ukraine
вы реально достали ребята. пора вас останавливать.
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Thank you Agape, you are representative of the voice of Ukraine, not the Putin apologists that inhabit this forum and support the freedom fighters Russian terrorists intent on destabilising Ukraine.
It is me who want to thank you for your words and positive vibes, Dogsoldier.
Being immersed in a powerful information war besides factual war against invaders, it is highly meaningful to see that world, at least, that part of it who is able to think, understands the truth.
I believe, those ones who hate us or judge us, would understand what was going these days in Ukraine. I also hope, this understanding would be not too painful and will happen not too late to them.
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Last Friday our graduates have left school.
Funny thing happened in Yalta, Crimea. The authorities turned on Russian Federation anthem (the same tune as USSR anthem, by the way; such a brilliant coincidence, isn't it?).
Kids became confused for a second and then started singing Ukrainian anthem. Presumably, it illustrates somehow mood of certain Crimea people, real patriots of Ukraine.
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Status Update
By Olga Yakovleva
Вчера я почувствовал себя инопланетянином в родном Киеве
Короче, отмечали событие у одних знакомых. Были с женой среди гостей. Всего было человек 15 (все из Киева). При этом киевлян в 3-м и больше поколении было всего 3. Остальные либо "понаехавшие" либо являются киевлянами в 1-м поколении. С высшим образованием 8, у остальных среднее или средне-специальное. Ну, конечно не могли не коснуться политики и вопросов о происходящем в Украине. Я, конечно же высказался. И тут понеслось. Вот какие тезисы были озвучены этими людьми (все с максимальной аффектацией, криками, воплями, заламыванием рук и прочего).
- майдановцы - герои Украины и все присутствующие ПОСТОЯННО носили им еду и одежду;
- Путин не может без войны - он постоянно развязывает войны. В качестве примеров прозвучало: Приднестровье, Чечня (о том, что было 2 чеченских войны никто из этих людей даже не догадывался, не говоря уж о сроках этих войн), Осетия, Абхазия и - ВНИМАНИЕ - БИНГО!!! - Нагорный Карабах.
- На востоке Украины орудуют банды российских боевиков, местное же население мечтает о том, чтобы пришли украинские войска и эту "горстку российских наемников" перестреляли.
- крымчане не хотели в Россию...у многих там "знакомые", которые подтверждают, что на референдум никто не явился и все было фальсифицировано. Наоборот ВНИМАНИЕ - ОПЯТЬ БИНГО!!! - ВСЕ крымчане мечтают сейчас лишь об одном, чтобы Крым вернулся в состав Украины.
- на Украине должен быть только один язык - украинский. Все граждане Украины любят и всегда с удовольствием общаются на украинском (при этом за столом все общались на русском). За второй государственный язык - русский, выступают только несколько сотен маргиналов, алкашей и бомжей на Юго-Востоке.
На мой невинный вопрос, знают ли присутствующие, с какого года Путин является президентом России (время президенства Медведева, априори для всех - тоже президенство Путина, это даже не обсуждалось) последовали ответы от "с 1991" до "с 1994"....
На мой вопрос почему вы осуждаете российских наемников в Донбассе и не осуждаете украинских наемников в Чечне, на меня дружно накинулись, что я не понимаю, ведь там была "национально-освободительная борьба чеченского народа против Российской империи". Когда же я спросил, что, в таком случае делали украинсие наемники в Приднестровье, ВСЕ стали меня убеждать, что в данном случае украинские наемники воевали за независимость и территориальную целостность Молдовы! Это меня несколько удивило и даже позабавило, все эти люди даже не подозревали, что украинские наемники в Приднестровье воевали НА СТОРОНЕ ПРИДНЕСТРОВЬЯ. И именно потому, что считали, что эти земли никогда до Союза не принадлежали никаким "молдаванам" и что в Приднестровье они защищали от "мамалыжников", проживающих там украинцев. И воевали представители УНА-УНСО, т.е.именно те кто сегодня является Правым Сектором. Это сообщение всех повергло в шок. Стали кричать, что я все это сам придумал, такого не может быть и т.д. Мне было торжественно объявлено, что я зазомбирован российскими теле-каналами, и что У МЕНЯ каша в голове:smile)))))
При всем при этом, присутсвующие единогласно осудили, что в Киеве да и по всей Украине на руках полно нелегального оружия и это еще нам всем аукнется. На мое замечание, что оружие вообще-то первыми начали захватывать именно майдановцы (привел пример с захватом львовской в/ч, где было похищено около 2000 стволов). Опять сказали, что я ниче не понимаю, оружие это, ВНИМАНИЕ - БИНГО! - до Майдана не дошло (у майдановцев вообще не было ни одного ствола - только палки и щиты), а было просто отдано назад военным. А как же многочисленные и фото с Майдана вооруженных "протестувальныкив"? - спросил я и добавил, что лично видел там вооруженных огнестрелами протестувальныкив" "Ахахаха, это все ФОТОШОП! Ты еще на Киселева сошлись! Мы же тебе говорим - НИКАКОГО ОРУЖИЯ У МАЙДАНОВЦЕВ НИКОГДА НЕ БЫЛО. А ты видел просто муляжи. Это ддля понтов некоторые ходили."
Ой, вспомнил.smile В качестве потехи над этой публикой, я заявил:"А вы знаете, что Россия в Крыму начала строить школы, больницы?" Последовал ответ: "Ну а что им еще остается делать, как показуху устраивать?". Я тут же поправился: "Ой. я перепутал, они не начали строить, просто старые ремонтируют",- Тут же реплика: "А ты что думал от Путина дождаться, чтобы он что-то новое там построил? Ну ты наивный! Да никогда он этого делать не будет!"
Расходились мрачными, прощались сквозь зубы. Жена посетовала, что я испортил людям праздник
http://forum.for-ua.com/read.php?1%2C3936810
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http://eugenyshultz.livejournal.com/551393.html
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(http://cs7001.vk.me/c540105/v540105733/26ffd/1SRGjnhm0oI.jpg)
кстати я могу еще добавить сюда чехословацкий, словенский хорватский. разница будет так же не велика.
хотя. чего уж там...Выдумывать то что уже давно существует? так какие же вы русские славяне?
(http://cs617418.vk.me/v617418998/a5b4/38Fsx-XgxLw.jpg)
Кирилл с Мефодием в гробу перевернулись, наверное, услышав , что русский язык к славянским не относится Чего пытаешься доказать своими изысканиями - понять не возможно Жду картинки с глобусом Украины - как апофеоз всем твоим постам
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ты не видишь очевидного ? или просто твое упрямство не хочет этого признать? тогда вообще о чем можно разговаривать с тобой? о каких фактах и конструктивности? твой разум заточен только под реальность того что тебе скажут под собственное достоинство. как ни хоти. но словения, Хорватия, Польша, Сербия и другие страны почему то понимают украинский частично как есть. а вот русский они не понимают вообще. как бы ты это назвала?вам эти языки именно зубрить надо. а мы их воспринимаем как один из диалектов украинского. так что давай учиться смотреть правде в глаза.
я украинский знаю не хуже любого западенца бандеровца. и мне не нужен синхронный перевод даже мысленно. я просто на нем разговариваю.
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и мне не нужен синхронный перевод даже мысленно. я просто на нем разговариваю.
:ROFL:
Тут просто кладезь народной мудрости
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ты не видишь очевидного ? или просто твое упрямство не хочет этого признать? тогда вообще о чем можно разговаривать с тобой? о каких фактах и конструктивности? твой разум заточен только под реальность того что тебе скажут под собственное достоинство. как ни хоти. но словения, Хорватия, Польша, Сербия и другие страны почему то понимают украинский частично как есть. а вот русский они не понимают вообще. как бы ты это назвала?вам эти языки именно зубрить надо. а мы их воспринимаем как один из диалектов украинского. так что давай учиться смотреть правде в глаза.
я украинский знаю не хуже любого западенца бандеровца. и мне не нужен синхронный перевод даже мысленно. я просто на нем разговариваю.
Вместо того, чтобы демонстрировать здесь свою зашоренность на идее исключительности Украины, поди лучше почитай, какого было виляние церкви на язык и письменность - православие VS католиковю. А схожесть вашего украинского с польским и прочим, лишь показывает, что в холопах вы у них достаточно долго пребывали- так что вам есть чем гордиться. А для меня пофиг, что русский на польский или еще какой не достаточно похож - комплексы по таким смешным поводам есть только у наций, которым надо что-то доказывать. А русским это без надобности Так что смени пластинку - желаемого эффекта нет
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и мне не нужен синхронный перевод даже мысленно. я просто на нем разговариваю.
:ROFL:
Тут просто кладезь народной мудрости
а что от тебя еще можно ожидать как ни тех же истерично хохочущих смайлов. кстати ты же сама говорила что это признак не очень умных людей. ;D
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ты не видишь очевидного ? или просто твое упрямство не хочет этого признать? тогда вообще о чем можно разговаривать с тобой? о каких фактах и конструктивности? твой разум заточен только под реальность того что тебе скажут под собственное достоинство. как ни хоти. но словения, Хорватия, Польша, Сербия и другие страны почему то понимают украинский частично как есть. а вот русский они не понимают вообще. как бы ты это назвала?вам эти языки именно зубрить надо. а мы их воспринимаем как один из диалектов украинского. так что давай учиться смотреть правде в глаза.
я украинский знаю не хуже любого западенца бандеровца. и мне не нужен синхронный перевод даже мысленно. я просто на нем разговариваю.
Вместо того, чтобы демонстрировать здесь свою зашоренность на идее исключительности Украины, поди лучше почитай, какого было виляние церкви на язык и письменность - православие VS католиковю. А схожесть вашего украинского с польским и прочим, лишь показывает, что в холопах вы у них достаточно долго пребывали- так что вам есть чем гордиться. А для меня пофиг, что русский на польский или еще какой не достаточно похож - комплексы по таким смешным поводам есть только у наций, которым надо что-то доказывать. А русским это без надобности Так что смени пластинку - желаемого эффекта нет
укушенное самолюбие. бестолку вам что то объяснять. хоть вы и ставите ставки на конструктивность. сами не способны эту конструктивность даже принять. так что.... моя пауза это только ваша реакция. вы истинно показали свое "лицо". не хочу я терять время на какие то объяснения. Хоть и хотела. нет слов. остались только слюни
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Это только в Украинских съехавших мозгах чье-то самолюбие может быть задето от того, что язык не достаточно похож на язык панов ;D
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Это только в Украинских съехавших мозгах чье-то самолюбие может быть задето от того, что язык не достаточно похож на язык панов ;D
НЭ бачу сЭнсу розмовляты з вамы дали
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Вот и ладненько - наконец то хоть дошло, что не моськино это дело доказывать , что у слона не тот язык и не то происхождение :)
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Вот и ладненько - наконец то хоть дошло, что не моськино это дело доказывать , что у слона не тот язык и не то происхождение :)
тогда не надо обижаться если я с вами буду в будущем разговаривать на вашем не конструктивном языке. то что я не имею желания вам что то объяснять или оправдываться. это еще не значит что я буду молча смотреть как вы унижаете других.
моськи - собачки мелкие но такие умные( не съедят то хоть по кусают (http://s20.rimg.info/b74baff694dd0db47f1cf291b69a8b9d.gif)). не даром же маленьких собак даже слоны боятся ))))
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Ну шикааарная речь Путина ;D это сколько же наших предприятий работало на вас? а почему же мы так хреново жили если вы такие хорошие?
вот мы от вашего субсидирования и отказываемся. потому как сами в состоянии себя прокормить.
дело, как оказалось, в комплексах и страхах?))
дедушка Фрейд отдыхает ))))
Больной человек! Комплекс маленького ребенка- с ним не советовались, его не спрашивали...... детский сад
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Вот бл%!
В Иванофранковске море военных гробов,
на Донбассе каждый день бомбят мирное население и каждый день гибнет мирное население, а зомбированное укро-быдло продолжает нести бред про русских и Путина не видя, что в это время происходит под носом , в том числе и национальность нового "президента" не замечает.
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wow way to much for me to translate. read what I can, but my Russian isn't that good :)
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Вот бл%!
В Иванофранковске море военных гробов,
на Донбассе каждый день бомбят мирное население и каждый день гибнет мирное население, а зомбированное укро-быдло продолжает нести бред про русских и Путина не видя, что в это время происходит под носом , в том числе и национальность нового "президента" не замечает.
Так ведь по вашей же милости гибнут люди. только на днях 400 боевиков пересекли границу и те же 400 боевиков 10 часов бомбят в Луганске. ну что вы в конце концов . на эмоциях не видите что сами то все это и творите? да закройте тогда границы с нами сами. раз мы такие хреновые что для нас что грузин, что еврей братья одной крови. только вы не от мира сего.
это не мы.это вы зомбированные. я уже вам прямой эфир вашего любимца поставила с его идиотизмом. и то не дошло.
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NS1 is you will have a good practice of the Russian language)))
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Ладин,
голова человеку дана чтобы ею думать, а не чтобы повторять ахинею выдуманную твоими еврейскими олигархами для оболванивания пушечного мяса, или до тебя дойдет что происходит, когда твои близские гибнуть начнут?
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Ладин,
голова человеку дана чтобы ею думать, а не чтобы повторять ахинею выдуманную твоими еврейскими олигархами для оболванивания пушечного мяса, или до тебя дойдет что происходит, когда твои близские гибнуть начнут?
да ты что? а ваша то голова хоть где? ты внимательно своего путина слушала? или опять как всегда на эмоциях? а как на счет кадыровцев которые ждут приказа? сколько их 74 000? ну хорошо если это лажа. тогда скажи пожалуйста на каком основании я в контакте от москвичей получаю угрозы- в виде " подождите скоро мы вас всех на куй сметем " так у кого где голова то?
ну ладно СМИ лучше не верить. ну своего же Путина послушайте без эмоций . Ну млять так кто из нас глуп то. или ты скажешь что ваш Путин со своими страхами тоже монтаж?
усыпить бдительность с вашими дотациями у украинцев уже не удастся. лучше перестраховаться. от ваших 74 000 чем потом снова 50 лет гнуться от ваших дотаций и субсидирований.
вы хоть раз попытались поставить себя на наше место? хотя для таких действий нужно прежде всего уметь отключать эмоции. да куда вам. а попробуйте свои эмоции закрыть в сейф на ключ. и посмотреть на эту ситуацию нашими глазами. ну ты же все таки психолог. если это конечно правда. А так мне кажется что обычная самоучка психологии. не более. Психологи не руководствуются эмоциями. ибо это путь в никуда.
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Это только в Украинских съехавших мозгах чье-то самолюбие может быть задето от того, что язык не достаточно похож на язык панов ;D
The argument presented dates back to WWI, almost word for word, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire attempted to distance Slavs within the Austro-Hungarian Empire from those of the Russian Empire, who they were fighting.
The "pans" in Russia didn't speak Russian in their daily lives either.
РУССКИЙ БОГ
Нужно ль вам истолкованье,
Что такое русский бог?
Вот его вам начертанье,
Сколько я заметить мог.
Бог метелей, бог ухабов,
Бог мучительных дорог,
Станций - тараканьих штабов,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
Бог голодных, бог холодных,
Нищих вдоль и поперек,
Бог имений недоходных,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
Бог грудей и ... отвислых,
Бог лаптей и пухлых ног,
Горьких лиц и сливок кислых,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
Бог наливок, бог рассолов,
Душ, представленных в залог,
Бригадирш обоих полов,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
Бог всех с анненской на шеях,
Бог дворовых без сапог,
Бог в санях при двух лакеях,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
К глупым полон благодати,
К умным беспощадно строг,
Бог всего, что есть некстати,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
Бог всего, что из границы,
Не к лицу, не под итог,
Бог по ужине горчицы,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
Бог бродяжных иноземцев,
К нам зашедших за порог,
Бог в особенности немцев,
Вот он, вот он, русский бог.
-Петр Вяземский
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Добрый день! Хочу рассказать о ситуации в Луганске глазами очевидца. Только вернулся от здания ОГА! Весь город на ушах: нас бомбят, в людях сеят панику! В центре полно автоматчиков, шли по городу , сзади нас подъехала машина с колорадами, троих пацанов поставили на колени, потом положили на землю, я уводил жену, сзади начали стрелять. О судьбе ребят неизвестно... И все это в центре.
...Милиция стоит рядом с колорадами... ОГА не выглядит ужасно: пару выбитых окон, а всем втирают про бомбежку. (сфотографировать побоялся, начали обращать внимание автоматчики). Настраивают против армии. Но думающие люди видят все, но сделать ничего не могут. Мы ждем, когда все-таки уже прийдет армия, уже надоел бардак. Луганськ це Україна! Слава Україні!
С надеждой на поддержку, Александр, город Луганск.
(http://cs7001.vk.me/c540105/v540105138/1fd81/DQ5aSFSVinA.jpg)
P.S. наконец то бой там закончился. надолго ли? во общем дожились до анархии. хвала богу что не на всей территории украины. Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
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Are you sure that was an organized and intentional shelling of the city? There was an incredible amount of anti-aircraft fire directed at helos during the assault on the airport and other engagements. Several videos illustrate the amount of fire by pro-Russians (small arms and larger (audible)) as aircraft fly over. Those rounds have to come down...physics and gravity have a say in that...this is very common in urban warfare and unfortunately, innocents get hurt because of it. Just because the heavily biased RT says Ukraine forces shelled a neighborhood does not make it true...anymore than CNN saying the Russians did this or that.
Until someone can produce video evidence of rocket or artillery fire into buildings from one side or the other, it is just propaganda being used to promote one side or the other.
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
Perhaps they learned it from the Russians in Chechnya?
Some of the photos of civilian deaths, children included, by Russian forces in Chechnya are particularly gruesome.
http://www.russian-terror-in--chechnya.blogspot.ca/
Mother and Five Small Children Dead After Aerial Attack on Civilian House in Chechnya.
http://www.memo.ru/hr/hotpoints/caucas1/msg/2004/04/m16254.htm
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/ (http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/)
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
are you sure that the children were injured by the Ukrainian army? we have two armies. one called the National Guard. Other separatists. What army actually shot in children?
yes. we know about children. but. show people who talk about these injuries and even showed a girl with her mother in the hospital. They did not say it was our army.
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
Wonder why that's not in our Western media? All quiet on the western front.
I was talking with a client in Ukraine the other day, no order being taken, no idea what will be happening anytime soon, business is shot, what a shame for these people, hard working, nearly out of business.
Farage was right in what he said.
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
Wonder why that's not in our Western media? All quiet on the western front.
I was talking with a client in Ukraine the other day, no order being taken, no idea what will be happening anytime soon, business is shot, what a shame for these people, hard working, nearly out of business.
Farage was right in what he said.
The story was first reported in the Kiev Post. You know, that pro America mouthpiece?
Meanwhile, in Crimea, three pro Ukraine activists have gone missing, and journalists and human rights activists have been beaten and arrested. No report of that in the Western media either.
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Вот как было в Чечне.
В ноябре 1990 г -принятие Декларации о государственном суверенитете Чечено-Ингушетии Верховным Советом
В ноябре 1991 г указ Президента РСФСР о введении чрезвычайного положения на территории Чечено-Ингушетии
Через 3 дня - отмена Указа.
91-92 гг Вывод рос. войск
В ноябре 1992 — обострение отношений между самопровоглашённым правительством ЧР и Верховным Советом России в связи с осетино-ингушским конфликтом.
Потом 2 года этнические чистки, грабежи, убийства, массовое бегство , в основном, нечеченского населения, внутренние оппозиционные терки, противостояние парламента и Дудаева.
а теперь сравните
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpJfqJSIcAAY-Ju.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpJfqJSIcAAY-Ju.jpg)
не поняла. а чего это они у меня раздвоились ?
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
Wonder why that's not in our Western media? All quiet on the western front.
I was talking with a client in Ukraine the other day, no order being taken, no idea what will be happening anytime soon, business is shot, what a shame for these people, hard working, nearly out of business.
Farage was right in what he said.
The story was first reported in the Kiev Post. You know, that pro America mouthpiece?
Meanwhile, in Crimea, three pro Ukraine activists have gone missing, and journalists and human rights activists have been beaten and arrested. No report of that in the Western media either.
Have banks and gas stations, and more importantly, to some ;D , McDonald's reopened in Crimea?
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Донбасс всегда славился криминальными особями.
Kids too?
http://rt.com/news/162604-chidren-injured-east-ukraine/
#savedonbasschildren (https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveDonbassChildren)
Wonder why that's not in our Western media? All quiet on the western front.
I was talking with a client in Ukraine the other day, no order being taken, no idea what will be happening anytime soon, business is shot, what a shame for these people, hard working, nearly out of business.
Farage was right in what he said.
The story was first reported in the Kiev Post. You know, that pro America mouthpiece?
Meanwhile, in Crimea, three pro Ukraine activists have gone missing, and journalists and human rights activists have been beaten and arrested. No report of that in the Western media either.
Yes I'm shocked, next you will find there's nothing about a missing airplane and the pings detected are from the very thing that was sent down in the water to detect pings!!
Nothing is straightforward in this world, take from that as you wish :)
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
Well, to answer that with an example from where I live. If Mexico were to decide to take back Texas, they would never make it to San Antonio and would suffer heavy losses before the US Military could even intervene. So yes, we would defend our territory, regardless of who thinks it belongs to in history past...right now....it belongs to us and we would defend it like there was no tomorrow.
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
Well, to answer that with an example from where I live. If Mexico were to decide to take back Texas, they would never make it to San Antonio and would suffer heavy losses before the US Military could even intervene. So yes, we would defend our territory, regardless of who thinks it belongs to in history past...right now....it belongs to us and we would defend it like there was no tomorrow.
How racist is that Mike? You need take grip on yourself, apologise to the Mexican's right now and hand back whatever land you have....... okay, yes I'm joking, but it's the English, or possibly European way :laugh:
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
Well, to answer that with an example from where I live. If Mexico were to decide to take back Texas, they would never make it to San Antonio and would suffer heavy losses before the US Military could even intervene. So yes, we would defend our territory, regardless of who thinks it belongs to in history past...right now....it belongs to us and we would defend it like there was no tomorrow.
here's the real decent answer. talks about what can we talk to people who are accustomed only to steal? or do you think that they are able to establish an independent state? and who will work there? really a lot of people have already realized what power the DNI. they're just afraid to speak openly. because there is looting. But people have said. that if the DNR will take power? people leave the area.
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
Well, to answer that with an example from where I live. If Mexico were to decide to take back Texas, they would never make it to San Antonio and would suffer heavy losses before the US Military could even intervene. So yes, we would defend our territory, regardless of who thinks it belongs to in history past...right now....it belongs to us and we would defend it like there was no tomorrow.
How racist is that Mike? You need take grip on yourself, apologise to the Mexican's right now and hand back whatever land you have....... okay, yes I'm joking, but it's the English, or possibly European way :laugh:
Dear. Mexico-hot blood. so very well understand each other :chuckle:
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
Well, to answer that with an example from where I live. If Mexico were to decide to take back Texas, they would never make it to San Antonio and would suffer heavy losses before the US Military could even intervene. So yes, we would defend our territory, regardless of who thinks it belongs to in history past...right now....it belongs to us and we would defend it like there was no tomorrow.
How racist is that Mike? You need take grip on yourself, apologise to the Mexican's right now and hand back whatever land you have....... okay, yes I'm joking, but it's the English, or possibly European way :laugh:
Only if they agree to give it back to the natives they took it from 300 years earlier :) See where this is going? I hear ya though tiphat
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и на сегодня последнее. не очень радостное настроение людей но все же. лучше так чем ни как.
Борислав Береза
То, что я сейчас скажу будет жестоко, но честно. Это то, что сегодня до меня донесли военные. И вывод у всех один и тот же.
Ситуация на Востоке уже критическая. Переговорным процессом ничего добиться нельзя. Наемники из России каждый день проникают на территорию Украины. Их количество становится критическим.
Военные гарантируют, учитывая кол-во наемников и боевиков из Раши на сегодняшний день, полную зачистку Востока Украины за 30 дней. У них есть три требования. Первое - это гарантии, что после окончания компании с ними не поступят, как с Беркутом. Чтобы власть не обвинила их во всех грехах, для снятия ответственности с себя и не сделает их крайними. Второе - обеспечить всем необходимым.
Оружием, боеприпасами, транспортом, амуницией и питанием. Это все есть. Нужно решение о комплектовании. Третье - это отдать приказ о начале финальной стадии. И вот это будет зависеть только от главнокомандующего. Дело в том, что решение этой проблемы только одно. Полномасштабная военная операция.
Точка окружается. Первая фаза - это через громкоговорители объявляется о том, что гражданское население должно покинуть территорию за сутки-трое, после чего все находящиеся на территории будут объявлены пособниками врага. Террористам, которые хотят сдаться и сложить оружие, такая возможность будет предоставлена. Людей придется выпускать через фильтрационные лагеря. Это можно сделать быстро и технично установив достаточно большое количество криминалистических лабораторий и изначально отделив женщин и детей. Плюс наличие синяков и натертостей от оружия и ремней облегчит отлов сепаратистов. Вторая фаза. Город подлежит массированной атаке из всех видов оружия. Третья фаза полное повторение первой. Четвертая фаза полное повторение второй. Затем финальная фаза операции. Точечная зачистка города с последующим подключением уборочной техники.
Вы скажете, что это жестоко? Это необходимо. Иначе через пару месяцев эти метастазы поразят еще больше областей. А значит необходимо срочное операционное вмешательство. И те, кто хочет живым щитом встать на защиту оккупантов, не оболваненные жители Украины, а пособники враждебного государства и предатели. А таких всегда и во все времена уничтожали. Примеры второй мировой войны приводить надо? Думаю, что нет.
Как бы не было печально и трагично это признавать, но других решений проблема на Востоке Украины не имеет. И это не мое мнение, а выводы военспецов. И я с ними вынужден согласится.
Единственный человек от которого зависит дать или не дать этот приказ будет главнокомандующий Украины, новоизбранный президент Петр Алексеевич #Порошенко (http://vk.com/feed?section=search&q=%23%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE). И мотивироваться он обязан не человеколюбием ко всем, а необходимостью сохранения территориальной целостностью Украины и сохранением жизней граждан Украины среди представителей вооруженных сил Украины и гражданского населения. Ситуация дошла до того уровня, когда решение только одно. Вариантов, увы нет. И если Порошенко хочет войти в историю, как человек, который вернул мир в страну и сохранил целостность Украины, то приказ он отдаст.
А значит у жителей #Донецк (http://vk.com/feed?section=search&q=%23%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA)'ой и #Луганск (http://vk.com/feed?section=search&q=%23%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA)'ой области есть еще некоторое время, что бы принять решение на чьей они стороне и покинуть или остаться на территории будущей операции. У меня есть друзья и знакомые на территории Донбасса и я бы рекомендовал им готовиться к покиданию своего места жительства. Спасибо за это надо сказать не только восточному соседу, но и тем тварям, которые патриотизм, честь и совесть променяли на личные амбиции и жажду обогащения став марионетками в руках кремлядей. Это их выбор. И среди них немало подонков с депутатскими удостоверениями.
Но украинцы и #Украина (http://vk.com/feed?section=search&q=%23%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0) не могут вечно быть заложниками у террористов.
Военные же ждут подтверждения своих гарантий и приказ о начале операции. И, да поможет нам Бог, пережить этот кошмар.
(http://cs7001.vk.me/c7007/v7007543/16172/hTYI53jLrzc.jpg)
так что готовьтесь к худшему варианту. Одесса после этого вам покажется раем.
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Us Canadians are not as heavily armed as our neighbours to the south, but you can bet your boots.
we would protect our Country, homes and families with any means we had.
We may be small but we have a great history of defending freedoms and our way of life.
Me I will say this, I have land, machines ( that dig big holes :) and enough ways to protect my home tiphat
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Us Canadians are not as heavily armed as our neighbours to the south, but you can bet your boots.
we would protect our Country, homes and families with any means we had.
We may be small but we have a great history of defending freedoms and our way of life.
Me I will say this, I have land, machines ( that dig big holes :) and enough ways to protect my home tiphat
You would probably have a lot of help from those neighbors to the south too. tiphat
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Us Canadians are not as heavily armed as our neighbours to the south, but you can bet your boots.
we would protect our Country, homes and families with any means we had.
We may be small but we have a great history of defending freedoms and our way of life.
Me I will say this, I have land, machines ( that dig big holes :) and enough ways to protect my home tiphat
You would probably have a lot of help from those neighbors to the south too. tiphat
Yes I would think so, we do tend to always be there, we back the US more often than not, even as small as we are. We do what we can, good neighbours are hard to find tip hat
Just ask Ukraine :)
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http://jewishfront.wix.com/second-front#!-/cjds/4F590574-CA3F-4B7C-8D2A-2276D9079829
Израильский батальон "Алия" вступил в войну против хунты за честь еврейского народа
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http://jewishfront.wix.com/second-front#!-/cjds/4F590574-CA3F-4B7C-8D2A-2276D9079829 (http://jewishfront.wix.com/second-front#!-/cjds/4F590574-CA3F-4B7C-8D2A-2276D9079829)
Израильский батальон "Алия" вступил в войну против хунты за честь еврейского народа
И ты в это веришь? о каком еврейском батальоне может идти речь? если у нас президент нашей хунты еврей... логика? :chuckle:
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http://jewishfront.wix.com/second-front#!-/cjds/4F590574-CA3F-4B7C-8D2A-2276D9079829
Израильский батальон "Алия" вступил в войну против хунты за честь еврейского народа
The Donetsk junta or the Lugansk junta?
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http://jewishfront.wix.com/second-front#!-/cjds/4F590574-CA3F-4B7C-8D2A-2276D9079829 (http://jewishfront.wix.com/second-front#!-/cjds/4F590574-CA3F-4B7C-8D2A-2276D9079829)
Израильский батальон "Алия" вступил в войну против хунты за честь еврейского народа
а это тебе достойный ответ.
Военные РФ планируют использовать для провокаций захваченные в Крыму МиГ-29
доказательства не вмешательства России
http://www.unian.net/politics/924782-voennyie-rf-planiruyut-ispolzovat-dlya-provokatsiy-zahvachennyie-v-kryimu-mig-29-tyimchuk.html
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Look, who came to my country to kill my fellow citizens! There are Chechens on this video.
They cut off heads of Russian soldiers in the first chechen war .
http://www.ostro.org/internet-hits/osvoboditeli_slavyanskogo_donbassa_video_kak_kadyrovskie_zveri_otrezayut_golovy_zhivym_russkim_solda/
Смотрите, дарагие рассияне, каких "защитников" с молчаливого согласия вашего фюрера, вы экспортируете на мою Родину?
Вы задаетесь вопросом о нашей "короткой памяти"? А у вас она какая???
Вы хотите, что-бы они резали наших ребят, как собак, как они резали этих российских мальчиков и ради чего, ради амбиции вашего фюрера и наших олигархов, которые спонсируют ваших террористов?
Кого вы защищаете? Кто в Украине просил вашей помощи?
Я уверена, что мои слова звучат в пустоту, но ничего прийдет время и вы вспомните все? Но вы будете тогда один на один с вашей проблемой, ни одна цивилизованная страна не прийдет вам на помощь.
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А что, украинцы наших мальчиков в Чечне не резали? :smokin:
Мадам из Англий, может, хорош истерики устраивать?
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Мери, вы шо ослепли,
Донбасс давно и Киев и Львов и и Ахметов и бандиты зае%ли, поэтому там люди и восстали. Донбасс основной финансовый донор украинской незалежности и скатился благодаря этой незалежности в страшную нищету.
Не для кого не секрет , что и за ДНР/ЛНР воюют наемники, и против там не не только сброд имени Степана Бандеры , там еще и пиндостан воюет.
А причина то не в Путине, вранье это сраное. Причина в том, что в захолустном Миллерво уровень зарплат в 4 раза выше, чем в Луганске, а пенсий в 3. Никакие бы чечены сами ничего не сделали на Донбассе. Все эти враки выгодны КоломойскимПарошенкамАхметовым, а с чего вы Мери олигархические интересы защищаете не понятно.
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
A very significant number of USA Citizens carry guns. We negotiate .
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А что, украинцы наших мальчиков в Чечне не резали? :smokin:
Мадам из Англий, может, хорош истерики устраивать?
а может хорош указывать, что мне писать?
сходите лучше на йух он ваш весь какбэ. ПОКА, временно, спешите.
ПС: и что-бы два раза не вставать.
С какого перепугу, вы, Inferno, решили, что я за олигархов? Не знаю ни Коломойского, ни Порошенко. НЕ пила с ними на брудершафт, но вот овоща януковича знала. Ахметовские похождения знала. Все войны за передел сфер влияния в Донецке знала. И будь моя вола я бы яныка с ахметовым за причинное место вздернула на березе. И даже все предпосылки сегодняшей бойни на Донбасее более-менее ясны. Но было бы хорошо, без участия помощников с другой стороны.
И не говорите, что путин не при делах. С его молчаливого согласия весь этот беспредел творится на Юго-Востоке Украины.
Или вы думаете, что я не могу отличить правду от полу-правды и лжи?
И все таки хотелось бы услышать ответы на заданные мной вопросы выше. Ваши ответы, не кремлевская пропоганда!
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I have one question. to all of you. if your home people come with guns. you will negotiate or will defend their territory?
A very significant number of USA Citizens carry guns. We negotiate .
Funny having a gun present, can affect, negotiations :chuckle:
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На игле
Всего лишь год назад среднестатистический украинец рассматривал Россию если не полноценно «братским», то точно дружественным государством. Иллюзорики, захватившие часть сознательной жизни временами Союза, и наивно верившие в созданные ещё советской историографией мифы о триединстве русского, украинского и белорусского народов, так были накачаны этой идеей, что подсознательно допускали очень близкие, глубокие формы сотрудничества между ними как в экономической, так и политической плоскости. Причём не просто из-за географической близости и высокой степени экономической интеграции, сколько именно по причинам близкого духовно-мировозренческого родства.
Обычный украинец, весьма поверхностно вникавший в исторические перипетии ХХ века, мало интересовался причинно-следственными связями национально-освободительной войны украинского народа как периода УНР, так и периода УПА, не говоря уже о реалиях существования Украины-Малороссии в составе Российской империи, начиная с ХVII века. Слишком мало украинцев осознавали явно односторонний характер отношений, который столетиями навязывала им Россия, неоднократно диктуя запреты на использование родного языка, передёргивая исторические факты, подменяя понятия, затушёвывая собственные широкомасштабные преступления, как например Голодомор 1930-ых, и наконец, явно недружественные отношения, сформировавшиеся между нашими государствами уже в период Независимости и особенно в последнее десятилетие. И уж точно ничтожно малый процент населения Украины прислушивался к прогнозам украинских политиков праворадикального толка, как например никому не известного ещё год назад Дмитрия Яроша о том, что война между Украиной и Россией неизбежна. Хотя только слепой не пришёл бы к этому выводу, если бы подвергнул отношения России и Украины детальному анализу, пристально присмотревшись к ним, начиная с 2003-2004 годов. Сейчас, с высоты прошедших событий, увидев последствия подковёрной политики Кремля, многие годы разрушающей государственность Украины и через своих ставленников во власти (Янукович, ПР и КПУ), и через рычаги экономического давления (газовый шантаж, торговые войны и запреты), мы уже чётко понимаем - Владимир Путин вёл целенаправленную, многовекторную деятельность, целью которой является уничтожение Украины и восстановление её в качестве вассала в возрождающемся проекте СССР 2.0.
Но для того, чтобы попробовать отделить взаимоотношения государства Украины после Майдана-2014 и России, от взаимоотношений украинского народа с россиянами в общем и русскими в частности, необходимо понять - когда, как и по каким причинам произошёл надлом, разрыв дружественных связей, которые привели сейчас к открытому противостоянию, яростному неприятию, бурлению воинствующих страстей, проявлениям украинофобии и военной агрессии в Крыму и в Донбассе.
Ответ лежит на поверхности. В начале 2000-ых Путин сформулировал для России своё видение будущего. Россия не слышала и не понимала тогда этого, т.к. постройку новой Империи Путин начал негласно, в кругу приближённых кремлёвских политиканов, политтехнологов и олигархов. Чечня, неприятие Майдана-2004, стремительная милитаризация государства, подогретая экономическим ростом за счёт мощного потока нефтегазовых долларов, открытая военная агрессия против Грузии, возрождение статуса мирового игрока, возвращающегося в клуб G-8, в т.ч. и за счёт помпезной сочинской Олимпиады - вот основные вехи, предшествующие войне с Украиной. Все эти шаги не были бы столь популярны в полунищей провинциальной России, с огромнейшими нерешёнными проблемами дорог, медицины, образования, правосудия, если бы не подготовленное соответствующим образом общественное мнение. И формирования одного культа личности Путина здесь явно недостаточно. Россия прошла гораздо больший путь вторжения кремлёвских серых кардиналов в общественное сознание миллионов граждан. Понимая, что основным объектом информационного удара, равно как и объектом военного нападения, неизбежно станет Украина, Кремль направил гигантские информационно-пропагандистские усилия для подготовки плацдарма именно в этом направлении.
Россияне давно пребывают в полностью вымышленной, параллельной информационной реальности. Как минимум 10 лет в России реализуется путинская программа изменения сознания граждан, направленная на всесторонне одобрение выбранного хозяином Кремля курса по возрождению Нео-СССР. По степени воздействия её можно вполне серьёзно сравнивать с влиянием психотропных веществ, вызывающих наркотическую зависимость. Инструментами воздействия выступают телевидение, кино, электронные и печатные СМИ, публичная политика, риторика руководителей РФ и лично В. Путина.
Многолетняя государственная российская программа поддержки патриотического кино привела к засилью низкопробных фильмов о войне с немецким фашизмом (один Михалков с «Предстоянием» сколько душ невинных загубил), о бесконечной борьбе чест
Mod note to insert source: http://blogs.lb.ua/tsilya_zilgenshukher/268499_na_igle.html
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Go back and litter the other forum, you're a joke.
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На игле
Многолетняя государственная российская программа поддержки патриотического кино привела к засилью низкопробных фильмов о войне с немецким фашизмом (один Михалков с «Предстоянием» сколько душ невинных загубил), о бесконечной борьбе чест
Mod note to insert source: http://blogs.lb.ua/tsilya_zilgenshukher/268499_na_igle.html (http://blogs.lb.ua/tsilya_zilgenshukher/268499_na_igle.html)
Многолетняя государственная российская программа поддержки патриотического кино привела к засилью низкопробных фильмов о войне с немецким фашизмом (один Михалков с «Предстоянием» сколько душ невинных загубил), о бесконечной борьбе честных ментов с бандитами (прощайте проблемы тотальной коррупции), о героизме русского оружия, точечно и технологически зачищающего от мирового терроризма Северный Кавказ (забудьте о ковровых бомбардировках Чечни и Грузии). Этот поток высоко бюджетного дерьма вполне тянет на определение жанром «героико-фантастические видео-частушки» и имеет крайне мало общего с объективными историческими фактами. Это первый уровень привыкания в форме патриотического масскульта, такой себе никотин с ментолом, рассчитанный в первую очередь на молодёжь.
Геббельсовщина киселёвских программ телеканала «Россия» сравнима с дешёвой «ширкой», которую не стесняясь варят из ацетона, разливают по грязным, нестерильным шприцам и еженедельно вкалывают миллионам доверчивых зрителей. В ход идут самые нехитрые манипуляции- будь-то фальсификация фоторепортажей о «зверствах «Правого сектора» (http://blogs.lb.ua/go.php?url=aHR0cDovL25ld3MuYmlnbWlyLm5ldC91a3JhaW5lLzgxOTkzMi1Qb2Rib3JrYS1ub3Z5aC1mZWprb3YtaXotRG9uYmFzc2EtLXViaXR5ZS1kZXRpLWktZ29yamFjc2hpZS1nb3JvZGEtLWZvdG8tPw==), «о многочисленных жертвах (http://blogs.lb.ua/go.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zdG9wZmFrZS5vcmcvdi1zZXRpLXJhc3Byb3N0cmFueWFldHN5YS1mZWprb3ZvZS1mb3RvLW1vcmdhLXYtc2xhdnlhbnNrZS8=) среди мирного украинского населения», или «о расстреле частной армией жидобандеровца Коломойского (http://blogs.lb.ua/go.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zdG9wZmFrZS5vcmcvbG96aC1rb21hbmRpci1iYXRhbG9uYS1kb25iYXNzLXJhc3NrYXphbC1hdmFrb3Z1LW8tcmFzc3RyZWxlLXNvYnN0dmVubnloLXNvbGRhdC8=) несчастных украинских военных, не желающих воевать с собственным народом».
:thumbsup: tiphat
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In connection with the information that the Ukrainian aircraft fired Lugansk ODA present investigation into the events. So, talk about the shelling began with this video here:
http://www.soborna.com/threads/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB-%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%9E%D0%94%D0%90.586/
The first step is to determine metoraspolozhenie man with the camera: Using Google Maps or Yandex Map can determine that filming is here: to Yandex.Map managed to precisely place the location of the person with the camera http://maps.yandex.ua/-/CVrqEEMO At the same time there are explosions in the Park and TSR: Ie Park and Ode to the left of relieving. The following images help determine the direction of the airplane: If you watch the video, you can give the false impression that the aircraft is on the crane and tower, but because of the height of this erroneous impression. As we can see, at the top of the tower visibility of such aircraft is (depending on real altitude) is much farther from the tower itself. Below we analyze the direction of the shots: The left side of the picture we see a tree. Hence relieving position is here: Reducing the scale maps, we can understand where the aircraft fires (marked on the map directions shots): We now analyze the destruction of ODA. If you look at the video and pictures of ODA, we can understand that it is necessary to make a shot with areas marked in purple : In the same way goes and footprints from explosions: By webcam video shows that ODA was shot by the red arrow. While the plane was from the opposite point of view.
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Maybe this could be an explanation of where missile came from? Russia has already proven that it can not be trusted in any way-- and causing mayhem to create propaganda is on the Russian agenda. :)( not laughing)
The Russian military plans to use provocation in Ukraine Mig-29 Ukrainian Air Force, captured in Crimea . It was on his Facebook page written by the coordinator of the "Information Resistance" D. TIMCHUK. "Now Loading Ammunition refueling combat aircraft seized at the airport" Belbek ". Earlier, the Russian side gave 37 Ukraine Ukrainian aircraft captured in Crimea, mostly - technically defective. When it came to the transfer of a working aircraft, the Russians stopped abruptly transfer process "- wrote Timchuk. According to the "IE" at the airport "Belbek" Russians are prepared to use 9 MiG-29 (7 - battle 2 - combat training). "These aircraft are Ukrainian markings and equipped with recognition of" friend or foe "as used in the Armed Forces of Ukraine", - said Timchuk. According to him, some of these aircraft is being prepared for use in Crimea, some will overturned to Russia - at the airport in Rostov region. previously reported, Russia has returned from the Crimea Ukraine airplanes that look more like metal.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-gotuye-provokaciyi-z-zahoplenimi-v-krimu-ukrayinskimi-litakami-timchuk-352792.html
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There seems to be little doubt they are firing on their own people with planes:
Can you add up the simple fact that Russian troops/terrorists are attempting to use the civilian population as shields to prevent attacks?
Have the Russian terrorists go home( ie that is not Ukraine) and there would be no reason for any shooting.Full stop.
Laughing at your "sources" very credible LOL-- also not you choose to use western media to "support" your flawed assertions-- that is when it suits you-the rest of the time they are not an acceptable source?
BTW-- news flash for you Manny-- business in Russia is not as usual-- and about to deteriorate.
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JayH,
It was a nice article, nice regarding a well done analysis, I mean. These things are obvious to many intelligent people who keep thinking while reading, watching and listening.
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I would also like to post a couple of shots taken near Ukrainian - Russian border.
It can be posted in both threads Russian viewpoint and Ukrainian viewpoint as it is what we, Ukrainians, think but it was reported by Russian journalist of "Echo of Moscow" Maria Turchenkova.
It is about Russian Federation citizens died in Donetsk region, whose corpses ought to be delivered back to Russia.
The article is in Russian and is long enough. If someone is interested to read it in English, I could translate it when I have time.
http://echo.msk.ru/blog/maryautomne/1332306-echo/
"Груз 200" - so called "cargo200" - corpses transportation is the name of that article.
The certificates what makes taking away the corpses of Russians legal.
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202242.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202248.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202230.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202236.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202232.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202238.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202240.jpg?1401683612)
(http://echo.msk.ru/files/1202234.jpg?1401683612)
Dead Russian citizens have been delivered home in big ice cream refrigerator tracks.
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More for you!! Only problem is--- opening the envelope now--- IT NEVER HAPPENED !!!!!!!!!!
http://lifenews.ru/news/134338
Украинская армия нанесла авиаудар по своим офицерам в Луганске
23:24 / 02.06.2014145463147 COMMENTS Ukrainian army inflicted airstrike against their officers in LuganskNatsgvardii fighters from aircraft bombed military in the territory of the village in Alexandrovka.
About 22:30 Moscow time aviation Ukraine dealt another blow to Lugansk. This time they destroyed a radar communication system that was used for the detection of aircraft in the air. It was located on the territory of a military unit near the village Alexandrovka.
Before striking conscripts lay down their arms and leave the territory of the radar, but there were officers. As reports from the scene correspondent Lif ene WS , Ukrainian military did not understand each other, thinking that now occupied radar militias, but the resulting shot at by his own soldiers.
According to preliminary data, radar communication system serving about 10 people. As a result of air strikes they all died.
Before applying the Armed Forces of Ukraine airstrike plane circled several times downtown and residents feared that the blow will be dealt to homes, but the military changed their minds and in their shot.
June 2 in Lugansk situation deteriorated again. Throughout the day, the National Guard conducted aimed fire on the city center. As a result of air strikes on the administration building Lugansk People's Republic of seven people were killed and 15 wounded. Among the dead was also a self-proclaimed Minister of Health People's Republic of Lugansk Natalya Arkhipova.
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http://svpressa.ru/t/89083
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Russia has already proven that it can not be trusted in any way--
Et tu, Brute.
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Russia has already proven that it can not be trusted in any way--
So very true.
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Putin still meddling in Ukraine.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-crisis-entering-dangerous-phase-152258286.html
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from the link posted by mhr7 above:
"Moscow's current objective in eastern Ukraine isn't annexation or direct control. Rather, Putin wants to maintain relative order with an eye towards reaching a favorable accord with the new government in Kiev — one that effectively resets the situation to late 2013, when Ukraine's pro-Moscow government was still planning on joining Putin's Eurasian customs union and spurning any EU or NATO overtures.
Under this strategy, Ukraine remains a permanent member of Russia's "near abroad," with its politics operating within parameters set by Moscow. The Vostok Battalion helps advance that goal.
"This is a specifically Russian military intelligence operation," says Galeotti. "They stood this force up and its role is to try and reassert some degree of control over the situation. Moscow is beginning to become alarmed how Eastern Ukraine was spinning into chaos and warlordism."
Vostok is one of Moscow's instruments in achieving this victor's peace. Their role is "essentially political," Galeotti says: Vostok is Putin's way of controlling other, less disciplined pro-Russian militants.
But there are between 300 and 400 Russian fighters from Vostok in Ukraine right now, and they are highly capable soldiers.
"They are mainly battle-hardened veterans," says Galeotti. "They are a cut above not just almost all of the other militia, but at the same time they are also more capable than almost any of the Ukrainian regular military."
As a result, the rebels are now capable of shooting down aircraft, and seizing critical infrastructure. The Russian army may no longer be camped out on Ukraine's border, and the country's incident-free presidential election created the perception that the situation is de-escalating.
In reality, Putin's latest power play in Ukraine is already in progress".
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This is the video of shooting down Ukrainian army officers who have been captured by terrorists. This assasin is the citizen of Russian Federation Igor Bezler (nickname Bes what means devil).
He, Bezler, was threatening to kill two colonels, blackmailing Ukrainian authorities and demanding set his people (taken by our forces) free.
If youtube link doesn't open, you can watch the same video here:
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/06/5/7028107/
(http://gordonua.com/img/forall/users/24/2452/pm403image004_01.jpg)
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This is the video of shooting down Ukrainian army officers who have been captured by terrorists. This assasin is the citizen of Russian Federation Igor Bezler (nickname Bes what means devil).
He, Bezler, was threatening to kill two colonels, blackmailing Ukrainian authorities and demanding set his people (taken by our forces) free.
If youtube link doesn't open, you can watch the same video here:
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/06/5/7028107/
(http://gordonua.com/img/forall/users/24/2452/pm403image004_01.jpg)
How is it possible that there are Russian soldiers of fortune in Ukraine, when Putin denies meddling in E. Ukraine? :chuckle:
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How is it possible that there are Russian soldiers of fortune in Ukraine, when Putin denies meddling in E. Ukraine? :chuckle:
They are not just soldiers of fortune, some of them belong to regular army of Russian Federation.
Friday, 6. "Information Resistance" group informed that Ukrainian AN-26 aircraft what was shot down around Slaviansk, had been strucked from the newest Russian ПЗРК /противоракетный зенитный комплекс/ 9К333 "Верба" - MANPADS 9K333 "Verba" (Willow).
Can you imagine that the plane was struck at the height of 4050 m! with 9M336 missile fired from a specified MPADS.
Rocket fragments are already studied by Ukrainian specialists.
What is astounding is this MANPADS were first delivered to the units of the Russian army only in the end of May (almost a week ago).
In the beginning of June, the first samples arrived to the anti-aircraft Regiment of the 98th Airborne Division (permanently located in Ivanovo region).
None of units of the Armed Forces have got this MPADS yet, neither it is allowed to be exported from Russia.
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How is it possible that there are Russian soldiers of fortune in Ukraine, when Putin denies meddling in E. Ukraine? :chuckle:
By the way, it has reminded me a marvellous song, one of my favourite.
Not a valid youtube URL
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They are not just soldiers of fortune, some of them belong to regular army of Russian Federation.
Friday, 6. "Information Resistance" group informed that Ukrainian AN-26 aircraft what was shot down around Slaviansk, had been strucked from the newest Russian ПЗРК /противоракетный зенитный комплекс/ 9К333 "Верба" - MANPADS 9K333 "Verba" (Willow).
Can you imagine that the plane was struck at the height of 4050 m! with 9M336 missile fired from a specified MPADS.
Rocket fragments are already studied by Ukrainian specialists.
What is astounding is this MANPADS were first delivered to the units of the Russian army only in the end of May (almost a week ago).
In the beginning of June, the first samples arrived to the anti-aircraft Regiment of the 98th Airborne Division (permanently located in Ivanovo region).
None of units of the Armed Forces have got this MPADS yet, neither it is allowed to be exported from Russia.
I am not sure a study of the fragments will reveal anything pertinent to the investigation. The missile used in several types of MANPADS is very similar, if not identical (i.e. GROM-2 and 9K38) with differences being length to allow more fuel for extended range or telemetry modifications or even IFF improvements to avoid friendly fire.
I am sure you are aware that the GROM-2 was shipped to Georgia and Chechnya for use against Russian aircraft so with the presence of both Czechnyans and Ossetians on the pro-Russian side, it is not surprising that the MANPADS would also be present.
Remember the 2 helicopters shot down a few weeks ago? They were in the area where GROM-2's were discovered and confiscated.
I realize the GROM-2 has a published altitude limitation of 3500 meters but I would pose 2 questions to you.
1. Are you 100% sure the AN-26 was at 4000m when it was hit?
2. You understand that what you see published as a weapons capabilities is not, in fact, the true capability or limitation.....ever, right? The true capabilities are classified.
Can you imagine your enemy knowing the exact altitude and range of opposing missiles? They would always fly 500 - 1000 (or more) meters above that to remain safe. Or so they thought :nod:
I am not saying that it is not possible the 9K333 was not used, but what I am saying is that there are actually other possibilities that make more sense, especially when you consider the factors above.
P.S. The 9M336 is not operational until October...at least the Polish "Piorun" version tiphat
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Putin, the hero!
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This is the kind of corruption that is so wide spread in the west, Russia and Ukraine. All perfectly legal, probably, but still in IMHO corruption none the less. A Ukrainian energy firm preaching energy independence from Russia has hired US VP Joe Biden's son as a director and lawyer.
Hunter Biden, 44, hired by Burisma Holdings Limited in April was approved by the company's owner, a former senior minister and political ally of Viktor Yanukovych, the exiled Ukrainian president. Yanukovych fled to Russia in February after protests erupted over his efforts to establish closer economic ties with Moscow.
Hunter Biden's employment means he will be working as a director and top lawyer for a Ukrainian energy company during the period when his father and others in the Obama administration attempt to influence the policies of Ukraine's new government, especially on energy issues.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-energy-firm-hires-biden-son-lawyer-134037416.html
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Map of language usage in Ukraine, from the last official census.
(http://www.usubc.org/site/images/news/2014.05.23-Ukraine-in-news/template_clip_image019.jpg)
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Here is a link to an interview with a Lugansk civilian, who is currently displaced in Kiev.
http://www.rferl.org/content/Lugansk-will-never-be-the-same-again-in-Kiev-a-blogger-reflects-on-his-native-city/25414757.html
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Enlightening post Halo, thanks!
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From the link which Halo posted above:
there is an agricultural Lugansk and an industrial one. Industrial Lugansk, in general, is inhabited by an underclass, because the coal industry was systematically destroyed for a long time by businessmen from the Komsomol [Communist youth organization] and other people. And all of this was produced illegally: illegal makeshift mines and so on. Plus, the Russian zombie television channels are always on in the background. This created a huge underclass army. And in the north, everything is all right. There are farmers there, like in the Poltava or Khmelnitskyi Oblast. They work with the land, so they have other problems. And now, when they see robbery at gunpoint, robbery from Russian occupiers, mercenaries, and bandits of all kinds, they simply organize themselves to protect their children, their land, their crops, by which they survive.
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And:
Ivanov: Virtually all of the notable people have been released. However, every day there are kidnappings. The day before yesterday 30 people were kidnapped and each one had a ransom. The average ransom was $5,000. This is similar to Chechnya under [Chechen leader Ramzan] Kadyrov. A quick and reliable way to make money. SBU employees continue to be held hostage. How the SBU surrendered will be sorted out in an investigation, but still two employees of the SBU are being held. And hostages are taken regularly. Euromaidan activists, who were not lucky enough to leave and hide themselves in time, were taken as hostages. They were only freed with money and personal connections.
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Report on the actions of the "freedom fighters" in Donestk
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
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Report on the actions of the "freedom fighters" in Donestk
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
tale for kids :Zzzzsleep: a month old btw... any reason to retype fake stories here?
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How do you know it's fake? People are kidnapped, and are beaten, in Lugansk and Donetsk.
The fact the story was reported a few weeks ago is irrelevant.
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I'm only surprised that Yarosh is not a pro-Putin nationalist:
"He believes that "anti-Christian" powers are afoot in the European Union and that Brussels forces people into lifestyles such as gay marriage. ... He doesn't see Europe or NATO as a potential partner and believes the US is also part of an "anti-Ukrainian front"."[7]
edit to add: a quotation of Yarosh from this article: http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
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Report on the actions of the "freedom fighters" in Donestk
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
tale for kids :Zzzzsleep: a month old btw... any reason to retype fake stories here?
Fairly detailed and specific account, plus there are photos of Milana in the report, on the face of it I see nothing to cast aspersions on the story. Why do you say it is a fake? ???
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He believes that "anti-Christian" powers are afoot in the European Union
Islamification? Yes. Without a doubt we are being force fed Islam. Look up Pat Condell on Youtube.
and that Brussels forces people into lifestyles such as gay marriage. ...
Forces, perhaps not. Encourages with glee, yes.
He doesn't see Europe or NATO as a potential partner and believes the US is also part of an "anti-Ukrainian front"."[7]
Well, the US intervened in Ukraine and then look what happened. Just as it does everywhere they intervene in the local politics. Read the news on Iraq today (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27778112)? Yeah, you guys really brought freedom there. :thumbsup:
Maybe Ukraine doesn't need that kind of freedom. Ya think? If Ukraine did not have Russia as an interested neighbour, you lot would have been in there already lock, stock and barrel rather than by proxy. Worse still, you would have dragged the UK along as obedient puppy, seeking non-existent 'weapons of mass destruction' or waging a 'war on terror' or some other jingoistic phrase that could be condensed into a twenty second ABC newsflash wrapped up as freedom fighting.
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He believes that "anti-Christian" powers are afoot in the European Union
Islamification? Yes. Without a doubt we are being force fed Islam. Look up Pat Condell on Youtube.
and that Brussels forces people into lifestyles such as gay marriage. ...
Forces, perhaps not. Encourages with glee, yes.
He doesn't see Europe or NATO as a potential partner and believes the US is also part of an "anti-Ukrainian front"."[7]
Well, the US intervened in Ukraine and then look what happened. Just as it does everywhere they intervene in the local politics. Read the news on Iraq today (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27778112)? Yeah, you guys really brought freedom there. :thumbsup:
Maybe Ukraine doesn't need that kind of freedom. Ya think? If Ukraine did not have Russia as an interested neighbour, you lot would have been in there already lock, stock and barrel rather than by proxy. Worse still, you would have dragged the UK along as obedient puppy, seeking non-existent 'weapons of mass destruction' or waging a 'war on terror' or some other jingoistic phrase that could be condensed into a twenty second ABC newsflash wrapped up as freedom fighting.
I hate to be the one to inform you, however everything you just quoted was stated by Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, an ultra-national Ukrainian group vilified by Moscow.
1. I agree with you that there is a big problem in attempting to pacify Islam-- that's not my choice. My choice would be if the USA plays "Cowboys and Muslims" (a joke told to me by B/B and also LT).
2. As far as gay rights go my attitude is live and let live-- I do get really tired of the Western media constantly whining about it, but I don't believe in violence towards gays either.
Clearly Ukrainians want their freedom, and they want all outside parties to let them go about it their way. Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
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I hate to be the one to inform you, however everything you just quoted was stated by Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, an ultra-national Ukrainian group vilified by Moscow.
When one is quoting, one uses quote tags. Perhaps they attribute authorship too. You didn't.
For example.
[quote=Putin]Putin said this...........[/quote]
Becomes:
Putin said this...........
If you paste it, we assume them to be your words. It is not for the reader to guess authorship.
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I hate to be the one to inform you, however everything you just quoted was stated by Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, an ultra-national Ukrainian group vilified by Moscow.
When one is quoting, one uses quote tags. Perhaps they attribute authorship too. You didn't.
For example.
[quote=Putin]Putin said this...........[/quote]
Becomes:
Putin said this...........
If you paste it, we assume them to be your words. It is not for the reader to guess authorship.
Perhaps my mistake for not making it clear enough, however there was the citation [7] at the end of his quotation, as well I put a colon before placing his quotation. I thought it was clear; I will try to make it even clearer next time.
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Manny you automatically blame the US for ever conflict. Yes they are the leaders in every thing the
UN gets involved with, because of their military power. But Uk, Canada and many other countries are their,
in equal capacity, if you look at what they send in comparison to what they have.
Google World military powers, interesting stuff, as to who has what and how fast the gap falls off.
Canada ranks 16th, I was shock, knowing how little military mite we have.
Russia is not a friend to Ukraine, if not they wouldn't invade and steal. ( Crimea)
Or send weapons/ supplies to aid Pro Russian activists in ripping it apart.
They want to control and keep Ukraine in a tidy little box and use it and abuse it.
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My choice would be if the USA plays "Cowboys and Muslims" (a joke told to me by B/B and also LT).
That is a play on an old KKK song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rlkju9FfJI&list=PLYc1Bfk_lc4CbtmsJVWxPyJoJsR-GENB5&index=1).
2. As far as gay rights go my attitude is live and let live-- I do get really tired of the Western media constantly whining about it, but I don't believe in violence towards gays either.
I agree. But I also support Russia's stance on not allowing gay propaganda to be disseminated among children. If they choose that life path when they grow up, fine. But lets not encourage it as a normal lifestyle choice when they are kids.
Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
You are in a world of your own. Your country doesn't have the money to take on a big country with a big military. Why you are meddling from the sidelines. But meddling, yes indeed you did as is well documented. (:)
If you doubt that, why has the US even an opinion on this? You guys are way over the ocean from Europe. Not your call. Most of Europe cares not at all what the US thinks of anything. Those days have gone. We appreciate there will be a learning curve where one imagines one still has relevancy during the change of the axis of world power. Nobody goes down without a fight.
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Perhaps my mistake for not making it clear enough, however there was the citation [7] at the end of his quotation, as well I put a colon before placing his quotation. I thought it was clear; I will try to make it even clearer next time.
Oh, next time I will look for multiple speech mark abuse, rows of dots and numbers in square brackets to try to get a clue.
Or you could just learn to use quotes?
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Report on the actions of the "freedom fighters" in Donestk
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
tale for kids :Zzzzsleep: a month old btw... any reason to retype fake stories here?
Fairly detailed and specific account, plus there are photos of Milana in the report, on the face of it I see nothing to cast aspersions on the story. Why do you say it is a fake? ???
Try to switch on ur brains - any need she was detained and stabbing. And if arrested - why did they let her go? Btw, do u imagine the gun blow on head and the results of that? Whats Milana's surname for more provement? She looks like as typical drugs addicter indeed. The funnest place in article was about her kidnappers Russian accent ;D What is that?
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My choice would be if the USA plays "Cowboys and Muslims" (a joke told to me by B/B and also LT).
That is a play on an old KKK song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rlkju9FfJI&list=PLYc1Bfk_lc4CbtmsJVWxPyJoJsR-GENB5&index=1).
2. As far as gay rights go my attitude is live and let live-- I do get really tired of the Western media constantly whining about it, but I don't believe in violence towards gays either.
I agree. But I also support Russia's stance on not allowing gay propaganda to be disseminated among children. If they choose that life path when they grow up, fine. But lets not encourage it as a normal lifestyle choice when they are kids.
Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
You are in a world of your own. Your country doesn't have the money to take on a big country with a big military. Why you are meddling from the sidelines. But meddling, yes indeed you did as is well documented. (:)
If you doubt that, why has the US even an opinion on this? You guys are way over the ocean from Europe. Not your call. Most of Europe cares not at all what the US thinks of anything. Those days have gone.
Funny how you say that now; but next time Europe gets in trouble, who will they call out for in desperation?
The USA is the leading member of NATO, and although there are a few left-wingers who like you constantly whine about the US, most of Europe and most of the rest of the world are happy that we are still the one and only superpower left. It's not like Italy and other shipping countries trust Russia to keep shipping lanes free. :chuckle:
It's not like when there is a major crisis the rest of the world beseeches Moscow. No, Russia behaves like a poorly mannered regional power, the one thing Obama has got right lately.
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Funny how you say that now; but next time Europe gets in trouble, who will they call out for in desperation?
China probably. They own all your debt, remember? :chuckle:
The USA is the leading member of NATO, and although there are a few left-wingers who like you constantly whine about the US, most of Europe and most of the rest of the world are happy that we are still the one and only superpower left. It's not like Italy and other shipping countries trust Russia to keep shipping lanes free. :chuckle:
It's not like when there is a major crisis the rest of the world beseeches Moscow. No, Russia behaves like a poorly mannered regional power, the one thing Obama has got right lately.
Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Europe does not support your cold war stance on Russia. If you doubt that, ask yourself what sanctions Italy has applied to Russia? Holland? Belgium? Denmark? Finland? Portugal? Get the idea? The proxy war against Russia is an American one. Europe doesn't care. We had enough of your wars already. They are getting old now.
In this one, Ukraine is the unfortunate battleground. The chessboard if you like. The compliant unelected EU machine supports you, but the countries don't. Nor do the people.
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Funny how you say that now; but next time Europe gets in trouble, who will they call out for in desperation?
China probably. They own all your debt, remember? :chuckle:
The USA is the leading member of NATO, and although there are a few left-wingers who like you constantly whine about the US, most of Europe and most of the rest of the world are happy that we are still the one and only superpower left. It's not like Italy and other shipping countries trust Russia to keep shipping lanes free. :chuckle:
It's not like when there is a major crisis the rest of the world beseeches Moscow. No, Russia behaves like a poorly mannered regional power, the one thing Obama has got right lately.
Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Keep watching ORT if it makes you happy... :ROFL: It's not like Russia could even hold Ukraine if they had invaded. Take over some parts? Yes. Hold them? :ROFL:
Instead Putin sends in his mercenaries from Chechnya to cause maximum human suffering, whilst denying in his usual weasel way. :laugh:
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My choice would be if the USA plays "Cowboys and Muslims" (a joke told to me by B/B and also LT).
That is a play on an old KKK song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rlkju9FfJI&list=PLYc1Bfk_lc4CbtmsJVWxPyJoJsR-GENB5&index=1).
2. As far as gay rights go my attitude is live and let live-- I do get really tired of the Western media constantly whining about it, but I don't believe in violence towards gays either.
I agree. But I also support Russia's stance on not allowing gay propaganda to be disseminated among children. If they choose that life path when they grow up, fine. But lets not encourage it as a normal lifestyle choice when they are kids.
Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
You are in a world of your own. Your country doesn't have the money to take on a big country with a big military. Why you are meddling from the sidelines. But meddling, yes indeed you did as is well documented. (:)
If you doubt that, why has the US even an opinion on this? You guys are way over the ocean from Europe. Not your call. Most of Europe cares not at all what the US thinks of anything. Those days have gone. We appreciate there will be a learning curve where one imagines one still has relevancy during the change of the axis of world power. Nobody goes down without a fight.
Which countries' militaries would compare to the American's? Russia? How? Russia isn't "a big country with a big military". Russia has lots of land but a population of only about 140 million vs 310 million in the US. On what level does the Russian military compare with the US? Financial? Population? Technology? Training of soldiers? The answer to all is none.
Russia is so far behind that US technologically that it has to buy helicopter carriers from France. Parents in Russia dread having their children report for military service. Nobody is immigrating to Russia except from former USSR satellites.
Meanwhile many Russians including the educated and wealthy are moving to the west. That should tell you about the quality of life in Russia. Have you decided to move to Russia? What about Andrew? Tom? Of course not none of you will immigrate to Russia or anywhere in the FSU. Visit maybe. Immigrate never. Again another telling sign. If those with ties to Russia or the FSU won't move there who will?
Manny where are the advantages Putin offers? Is the US or UK or EU meddling in Ukraine? Probably to some degree. Is Russia meddling in Ukraine? Probably and probably to a greater degree than others. Putin has so much more to lose than the others. Putin's dream of a Eurasian Union (EEU) will never be reality.
All the former satellites of the USSR have chosen the EU over Russia. Later this month Georgia and Moldova will sign trade and political agreements with the EU. To lose Ukraine to the EU would be catastrophic for Putin. If Ukraine goes to the EU, what's to stop Belarus and Kazakhstan from leaving mother Russia? Putin's worst fear, Russia alone and on his watch.
Edit: Fixed.
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Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
You are in a world of your own. Your country doesn't have the money to take on a big country with a big military. Why you are meddling from the sidelines. But meddling, yes indeed you did as is well documented. (:)
If you doubt that, why has the US even an opinion on this? You guys are way over the ocean from Europe. Not your call. Most of Europe cares not at all what the US thinks of anything. Those days have gone.
Which countries' militaries would compare to the American's? Russia? How? Russia isn't "a big country with a big military". Russia has lots of land but a population of only about 140 million vs 310 million in the US. On what level does the Russian military compare with the US? Financial? Population? Technology? Training of soldiers? The answer to all is none.
Russia is so far behind that US technologically that it has to buy helicopter carriers from France. Parents in Russia dread having their children report for military service. Nobody is immigrating to Russia except from former USSR satellites.
Meanwhile many Russians including the educated and wealthy are moving to the west. That should tell you about the quality of life in Russia. Have you decided to move to Russia? What about Andrew? Tom? Of course not none of you will immigrate to Russia or anywhere in the FSU. Visit maybe. Immigrate never. Again another telling sign. If those with ties to Russia or the FSU won't move there who will?
Manny where are the advantages Putin offers? Is the US or UK or EU meddling in Ukraine? Probably to some degree. Is Russia meddling in Ukraine? Probably and probably to a greater degree than others. Putin has so much more to lose than the others. Putin's dream of a Eurasian Union (EEU) will never be reality.
All the former satellites of the USSR have chosen the EU over Russia. Later this month Georgia and Moldova will sign trade and political agreements with the EU. To lose Ukraine to the EU would be catastrophic for Putin. If Ukraine goes to the EU, what's to stop Belarus and Kazakhstan from leaving mother Russia? Putin's worst fear, Russia alone and on his watch.
Westy, learn to use quotes - I didn't write that.
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
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Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
You are in a world of your own. Your country doesn't have the money to take on a big country with a big military. Why you are meddling from the sidelines. But meddling, yes indeed you did as is well documented. (:)
If you doubt that, why has the US even an opinion on this? You guys are way over the ocean from Europe. Not your call. Most of Europe cares not at all what the US thinks of anything. Those days have gone.
Which countries' militaries would compare to the American's? Russia? How? Russia isn't "a big country with a big military". Russia has lots of land but a population of only about 140 million vs 310 million in the US. On what level does the Russian military compare with the US? Financial? Population? Technology? Training of soldiers? The answer to all is none.
Russia is so far behind that US technologically that it has to buy helicopter carriers from France. Parents in Russia dread having their children report for military service. Nobody is immigrating to Russia except from former USSR satellites.
Meanwhile many Russians including the educated and wealthy are moving to the west. That should tell you about the quality of life in Russia. Have you decided to move to Russia? What about Andrew? Tom? Of course not none of you will immigrate to Russia or anywhere in the FSU. Visit maybe. Immigrate never. Again another telling sign. If those with ties to Russia or the FSU won't move there who will?
Manny where are the advantages Putin offers? Is the US or UK or EU meddling in Ukraine? Probably to some degree. Is Russia meddling in Ukraine? Probably and probably to a greater degree than others. Putin has so much more to lose than the others. Putin's dream of a Eurasian Union (EEU) will never be reality.
All the former satellites of the USSR have chosen the EU over Russia. Later this month Georgia and Moldova will sign trade and political agreements with the EU. To lose Ukraine to the EU would be catastrophic for Putin. If Ukraine goes to the EU, what's to stop Belarus and Kazakhstan from leaving mother Russia? Putin's worst fear, Russia alone and on his watch.
Edit: Fixed. Uh-huh.
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Your claim that the USA intervened in Ukraine is ludicrous. Apparently you don't have a notion of what that really means. Had we really intervened, I doubt if Russia would be in possession of Crimea. Giving out cookies (and MRE's) is hardly an intervention.
You are in a world of your own. Your country doesn't have the money to take on a big country with a big military. Why you are meddling from the sidelines. But meddling, yes indeed you did as is well documented. (:)
If you doubt that, why has the US even an opinion on this? You guys are way over the ocean from Europe. Not your call. Most of Europe cares not at all what the US thinks of anything. Those days have gone.
Which countries' militaries would compare to the American's? Russia? How? Russia isn't "a big country with a big military". Russia has lots of land but a population of only about 140 million vs 310 million in the US. On what level does the Russian military compare with the US? Financial? Population? Technology? Training of soldiers? The answer to all is none.
Russia is so far behind that US technologically that it has to buy helicopter carriers from France. Parents in Russia dread having their children report for military service. Nobody is immigrating to Russia except from former USSR satellites.
Meanwhile many Russians including the educated and wealthy are moving to the west. That should tell you about the quality of life in Russia. Have you decided to move to Russia? What about Andrew? Tom? Of course not none of you will immigrate to Russia or anywhere in the FSU. Visit maybe. Immigrate never. Again another telling sign. If those with ties to Russia or the FSU won't move there who will?
Manny where are the advantages Putin offers? Is the US or UK or EU meddling in Ukraine? Probably to some degree. Is Russia meddling in Ukraine? Probably and probably to a greater degree than others. Putin has so much more to lose than the others. Putin's dream of a Eurasian Union (EEU) will never be reality.
All the former satellites of the USSR have chosen the EU over Russia. Later this month Georgia and Moldova will sign trade and political agreements with the EU. To lose Ukraine to the EU would be catastrophic for Putin. If Ukraine goes to the EU, what's to stop Belarus and Kazakhstan from leaving mother Russia? Putin's worst fear, Russia alone and on his watch.
Edit: Fixed. Uh-huh.
You're as bad as me. :laugh:
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Now you've done it; you quoted Wikipedia. TomT will be by shortly to inform you what a dunce you are; but he won't offer anything better either. :chuckle:
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Now you've done it; you quoted Wikipedia. TomT will be by shortly to inform you what a dunce you are; but he won't offer anything better either. :chuckle:
Someone could comb through Janes.
http://www.janes.com/security/military-capabilities
They are the successor to the well-respected publication, "Jane's Fighting Ships".
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Now you've done it; you quoted Wikipedia. TomT will be by shortly to inform you what a dunce you are; but he won't offer anything better either. :chuckle:
I read something on Wiki last week in my particular area of engineering expertise, and had to make about five factual edits.
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Now you've done it; you quoted Wikipedia. TomT will be by shortly to inform you what a dunce you are; but he won't offer anything better either. :chuckle:
I read something on Wiki last week in my particular area of engineering expertise, and had to make about five factual edits.
Kudos to you, especially if Wiki accepts your edits. It's when nothing else is offered up as an alternative... :biggrin:
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Now you've done it; you quoted Wikipedia. TomT will be by shortly to inform you what a dunce you are; but he won't offer anything better either. :chuckle:
I read something on Wiki last week in my particular area of engineering expertise, and had to make about five factual edits.
I could have made 50, in the first 3 pages of Andrew's site:) Never use anyone one for solid research.
Wiki is good for basic info, IMO.
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Where can I buy a pair of those pink spectacles? One and only superpower? Really? :chuckle:
Actually, we are the only superpower :evilgrin0002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Now you've done it; you quoted Wikipedia. TomT will be by shortly to inform you what a dunce you are; but he won't offer anything better either. :chuckle:
I read something on Wiki last week in my particular area of engineering expertise, and had to make about five factual edits.
Kudos to you, especially if Wiki accepts your edits. It's when nothing else is offered up as an alternative... :biggrin:
They always accept them. I never yet had a counter edit (apart from RW related stuff). I have five of Google's page one/two aged authority sites on the subject matter, and two Wiki citations (backlinks as reference). Wiki takes content from me; not the other way around.
Point being, Wiki is user generated.
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2. As far as gay rights go my attitude is live and let live-- I do get really tired of the Western media constantly whining about it, but I don't believe in violence towards gays either.
I agree. But I also support Russia's stance on not allowing gay propaganda to be disseminated among children. If they choose that life path when they grow up, fine. But lets not encourage it as a normal lifestyle choice when they are kids.
There still seems to be a difference between what you are saying and what is actually done in practice:
(the following excerpted article is found on khodorkovsky's website: http://www.khodorkovsky.com/legal/other-victims/
"One of the most tragic human stories in the entire Yukos affair is the case of Vasily Alexanyan. With the Kremlin’s assault against Yukos well underway after the arrest of Mikhail Khodorkovsky in 2003, Harvard Law School graduate Alexanyan, former Yukos general counsel, stepped up in March 2006 to assume the position of Executive Vice President of Yukos. At the time the company was being forced through a state-orchestrated bankruptcy process. Alexanyan’s attempts to protect the company’s rights in this process were not tolerated by the authorities. After weeks of pressure, harassment, and repeated interrogations, Alexanyan himself was jailed on April 6, 2006.
Alexanyan was held in inhumane pre-trial detention conditions and deprived of medical treatment despite the fact that the authorities were aware that he was infected with HIV. He was repeatedly pressured to provide false testimony against Khodorkovsky in exchange for medical treatment, but he steadfastly refused. With a compromised immune system and lacking appropriate care in detention for almost two years, he became terminally ill with full-blown AIDS and lymphatic cancer. He died in October 2011 at the age of 39.
Blackmail and Torture
In January 2008, Alexanyan appeared before the Russian Supreme Court, stating that prosecutors had prevented him from receiving medical care as leverage to extort false testimony against Khodorkovsky. Alexanyan steadfastly opposed repeated attempts to blackmail him. As a result, he was kept in a damp basement cell where temperatures were as low as 5 degrees Celsius at night. In these horrific conditions Alexanyan developed full-blown AIDS and lymphatic cancer. His spleen had to be surgically removed. He suffered a near total loss of his vision. Meanwhile, without Alexanyan’s consent, in January 2008 a prosecutor publicly revealed Alexanyan’s HIV/AIDS diagnosis.
Alexanyan described in detail the blackmail that prolonged his detention and torture. At the January 2008 Russian Supreme Court hearing, he stated: “In the month of April [2007], investigator Khatypov – I’m naming names, because these people must one day be held responsible – says to my defender, who is present here: let him admit guilt, let him agree to the conditions and the procedure, and we’ll let him out. All this time, by the way, not only were they not prescribing medical treatment for me, they didn’t even want to take me out for repeat tests. This is torture, you understand, torture! Natural, legally authorised torture!”
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Report on the actions of the "freedom fighters" in Donestk
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
tale for kids :Zzzzsleep: a month old btw... any reason to retype fake stories here?
Fairly detailed and specific account, plus there are photos of Milana in the report, on the face of it I see nothing to cast aspersions on the story. Why do you say it is a fake? ???
Try to switch on ur brains - any need she was detained and stabbing. And if arrested - why did they let her go? Btw, do u imagine the gun blow on head and the results of that? Whats Milana's surname for more provement? She looks like as typical drugs addicter indeed. The funnest place in article was about her kidnappers Russian accent ;D What is that?
She wasn't arrested. She was detained by pro separatists. She didn't say they all had Russian accents, only that some did. There is a difference in how Russian is spoken in Ukraine, and how it is spoken in Russian. No one in Ukraine, anywhere, says chto. No one in Ukraine uses a hard "g". That's all the girl was saying. She also never stated anyone was shot, only that some people who were with her disappeared, and she did not know what happened to them.
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I agree. But I also support Russia's stance on not allowing gay propaganda to be disseminated among children. If they choose that life path when they grow up, fine. But lets not encourage it as a normal lifestyle choice when they are kids.
Had you stated this to me IRL, it would have rendered me speechless, a condition which is rare for me. So, congratulations. :BEER:
Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. It is biologically hardwired. There is a great deal of research on this area. I know a lot of gay men, some from my school days, and not one was ever interested in women. Not one of them has ever slept with a woman. The idea is repulsive to them, just as for most straight men, the idea of teabagging some bloke would be nauseating. These men all grew up at a time when homosexuality was still rather hidden. It only really changed as we left high school.
I remember a boy I grew up with, who always played with the girls, while the boys played soccer. When we were about 12, he changed dramatically, and was strapped at school regularly. We grew up in a very rough neighbourhood, where being gay would have meant daily beatings, and I doubt his parents would have been accepting either. Looking back now, I think that change, which happened around puberty, was the result of his knowing he was "different", and hiding it. I lost track of him, and often wonder if he went on to a happy life.
The problem with the Russian law is that it gives yobs a carte blanche in harassing gays. A few young men have been beaten to death for the crime of being homosexual, others have been lured and beaten. There's a good British documentary on this, which looks at the issue from all sides, titled Hunted. I watched it on CBC's The Passionate Eye.
Here is clip 1 in the UK. I assume the balance is also available on Channel 4.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/videos/all/the-hunted-clip-1
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Report on the actions of the "freedom fighters" in Donestk
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/10/two-weeks-held-captive-by-terrorists/
tale for kids :Zzzzsleep: a month old btw... any reason to retype fake stories here?
Fairly detailed and specific account, plus there are photos of Milana in the report, on the face of it I see nothing to cast aspersions on the story. Why do you say it is a fake? ???
Try to switch on ur brains - any need she was detained and stabbing. And if arrested - why did they let her go? Btw, do u imagine the gun blow on head and the results of that? Whats Milana's surname for more provement? She looks like as typical drugs addicter indeed. The funnest place in article was about her kidnappers Russian accent ;D What is that?
She wasn't arrested. She was detained by pro separatists. She didn't say they all had Russian accents, only that some did. There is a difference in how Russian is spoken in Ukraine, and how it is spoken in Russian. No one in Ukraine, anywhere, says chto. No one in Ukraine uses a hard "g". That's all the girl was saying. She also never stated anyone was shot, only that some people who were with her disappeared, and she did not know what happened to them.
Ага, они говорили по-русски с русским акцентом. They talked Russian with Russian accent, so the girl said :laugh:? how is that, explain, pls. Somehow I never heard что be pronounced as ch-t-o in Russia. Halo, don't drive a snowstorm (не гони пургу :chuckle:). South Russian dialect is almost the same as ur favourite мовa at least in terms of pronunciation "что". Морочь голову tod foreigners not to me. What was the aim of reposting an old fake? Fresh, Were the fresh ones ended? :smokin:
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A Ukrainian will hear the difference, Millaa. My husband hears the difference. I can hear the difference in many sounds, and even different accents. It is neither good nor bad, just different. If you recall, you posted a video claiming a man was speaking Ukrainian when, in fact, he was speaking Russian as it is spoken in Central and parts of Eastern Ukraine. You did not even realize it was Russian.
The girl also noted some of the men holding her captive didn't know who Ukrainian leaders were, and she therefore assumed they were foreigners. Granted, they could have just been stupid.
The interview is a little over 2 weeks old. I was reading another article on reports from the region when I came across the interview. It certainly is not stale dated. Whether you wish to believe it or not is up to you.
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A Ukrainian will hear the difference, Millaa. My husband hears the difference. It isn't good nor bad, just different. If you recall, you posted a video claiming a man was speaking Ukrainian when, in fact, he was speaking Russian as it is spoken in Central-Eastern Ukraine.
The girl also noted some of the men holding her captive didn't know who Ukrainian leaders were, and assumed they were foreigners. Granted, they could have just been stupid.
The interview is a little over 2 weeks old. I was reading another article on reports from the region when I came across the interview. It certainly is not stale dated. Whether you wish to believe it or not is up to you.
Месяц как минимум, до референдума на Донбасе. Еще раз - какого черта постить непроверенную чушь из желтой прессы, не подкрепленную фактически ничем? Если я делаю пост, я прикладываю видео-доказательства, а не журналистские домыслы. Хотя похоже, вам это в кайф. :smokin: рассказывать страшилки про зверства сепаратистов. Продолжайте скакать.
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It is not "thrilling". If you do not believe the pro separatists are committing atrocities, then your head is in the sand. How do you think all the soldiers killed in the East, boys sent there with little training, died?
That same "sensationalistic" source reported that today, two children were killed in Slovyansk, and that it is too early to determine whether what side is responsible for their deaths. It also reported that Putin told Hollande he had some influence in Donetsk when a discussion was had about finding a political solution to the problem there. That statement was also reported in the French press, I checked after reading it on the "sensationalistic" site.
As for accents, listen to how новый год is pronounced here, and tell me it is common in Russia. Also, please watch the video, and let me know how many times you've heard an л is pronounced this way in Russia, especially at 4:11 to 4:29.
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The hole in the ground I just filmed and posted on Youtube was made by a 60mm mortar fired by XYZ troops. Just ask the family behind me with the strange and irritated looks on their faces after I interrupted their daughter's pet hamster burial ;D
IOW, what I say on a video does not make it proof tiphat Journalists aren't the only ones with bias in reporting and it goes both ways of course.
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The hole in the ground I just filmed and posted on Youtube was made by a 60mm mortar fired by XYZ troops. Just ask the family behind me with the strange and irritated looks on their faces after I interrupted their daughter's pet hamster burial ;D
IOW, what I say on a video does not make it proof tiphat Journalists aren't the only ones with bias in reporting and it goes both ways of course.
Don't see a video or link. What's your Youtube name?
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The hole in the ground I just filmed and posted on Youtube was made by a 60mm mortar fired by XYZ troops. Just ask the family behind me with the strange and irritated looks on their faces after I interrupted their daughter's pet hamster burial ;D
IOW, what I say on a video does not make it proof tiphat Journalists aren't the only ones with bias in reporting and it goes both ways of course.
Don't see a video or link. What's your Youtube name?
I was being facetious :) The hole was dug by the girl's Father so she could lay her pet hamster to rest, but I said it was a mortar so it must be true. See?
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The hole in the ground I just filmed and posted on Youtube was made by a 60mm mortar fired by XYZ troops. Just ask the family behind me with the strange and irritated looks on their faces after I interrupted their daughter's pet hamster burial ;D
IOW, what I say on a video does not make it proof tiphat Journalists aren't the only ones with bias in reporting and it goes both ways of course.
Don't see a video or link. What's your Youtube name?
I was being facetious :) The hole was dug by the girl's Father so she could lay her pet hamster to rest, but I said it was a mortar so it must be true. See?
Sorry it's late here. Time to turn the PC off. :Zzzzsleep: :Zzzzsleep:
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I agree. But I also support Russia's stance on not allowing gay propaganda to be disseminated among children. If they choose that life path when they grow up, fine. But lets not encourage it as a normal lifestyle choice when they are kids.
I agree that gay 'propaganda' shouldn't be forced on children; however, it shouldn't be made out to be sordid or a disease either.
Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. It is biologically hardwired. There is a great deal of research on this area.
Exactly, Halo! Even many liberal thinking Russians believe that homosexuality is something that children can be predisposed to. While some even still believe it's a disease. :o I understand parents who want to protect their children, that is completely natural. On the other hand, there is nothing you can do to stop someone being gay. In the same way you cannot force someone to be straight.
The problem with the Russian law is that it gives yobs a carte blanche in harassing gays. A few young men have been beaten to death for the crime of being homosexual, others have been lured and beaten.
Yes, a female friend told me of a gay guy who was beaten to death outside a club here some years back even before the new legislation. Nobody, was ever charged with the murder. I believe most must be living their lives in relative secrecy or have emigrated. I'd also take a guess and say there are more than a few unhappy marriages. :-X Still, Russia is Russia and that's just the way it is. Every country has its positives and negatives!
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So Sorry, I do not want to turn this discussion into a debate on sexuality, especially with Halo but I have never seen "conclusive" evidence of homosexual hardwiring.
I have seen plenty of theories, suggestions and use of the word "natural" because it occurs in nature (along with pedophilia). Do a search now on these things and I am pretty sure you will get 20/1 it is not hardwired.
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Scientific studies are tending to prove differences in one homosexual genetic marker, as well as in the brains of gays. Studies also indicate that exposure to sex hormones in utero affects sexual orientation. Here is the abstract from one study. It found the halves of the brains of homosexual men and heterosexual women are more symmetrical than those of heterosexual men and homosexual women. It also found that the connections in the amygdalas (which has receptors for sex hormones, and the processing of emotions) of homosexual men resemble those of heterosexual women, while in homosexual women, the connections resemble those of heterosexual men.
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/27/9403.short
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you report, says nothing about the voice. There has to be something about the voice, half of the gay men have
high pitched cat voice, surely no one wants to talk that way :chuckle:
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/europe-b-2-bombers/index.html
USA sends B-2 Stealth Bombers to Europe to re-assure our allies. Yes Manny, those allies who you claim don't exist... :laugh:
"This deployment of strategic bombers provides an invaluable opportunity to strengthen and improve interoperability with our allies and partners," said Adm. Cecil Haney, commander of U.S. Strategic Command. "The training and integration of strategic forces demonstrates to our nation's leaders and our allies that we have the right mix of aircraft and expertise to respond to a variety of potential threats and situations."
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USA to permanently maintain special forces in the Baltics and Poland following crisis in Ukraine.
"The US intends to permanently maintain a military contingent in Eastern Europe in order to train special forces units in former Soviet bloc countries, Reuters reports citing the US European Command (EUCOM). Major exercises began last month in Poland, Slovakia and the Baltic states of Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia involving several hundred personnel from US special forces.
Long-term plans include further training drills that will consistently keep about 100 elite US troops on the ground at any one time in NATO states close to Russia, with teams working in several countries, a US official said.
EUCOM says its Special Operations Command Europe (SOCEUR) increased the size and scope of its planned exercises after the conflict in Ukraine began to escalate.
"Training with our partners in their home countries is something that we have always done," said SOCEUR spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Nick Sternberg. "The difference is that now we will maintain a (permanent) Special Operations Forces presence in theatre along the eastern front of NATO on this training mission," Sternberg said.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_11/US-to-permanently-maintain-special-forces-presence-in-Eastern-Europe-0781/
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USA to permanently maintain special forces in the Baltics and Poland following crisis in Ukraine.
"The US intends to permanently maintain a military contingent in Eastern Europe in order to train special forces units in former Soviet bloc countries, Reuters reports citing the US European Command (EUCOM). Major exercises began last month in Poland, Slovakia and the Baltic states of Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia involving several hundred personnel from US special forces.
Yes, and looks like a bit more than that may be coming to Russia's doorstep from what the military journals and sources are indicating.
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Agreement with the EU to be signed on June 27th:
"European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso called the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko and said that the EU was ready to sign with Ukraine Association Agreement in Brussels on 27 June.
"Returning to the agreements with Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia, we are going to sign in Brussels on 27 June, I want to reaffirm the EU's intention to negotiate with Russia if there is any concern on the Russian side to discuss the specific implementation of these agreements "- said Barroso during his visit to Georgia, UNIAN.
Barroso once again criticized the armed aggression that Russia used against Ukraine. "The European Union has repeatedly stated, and I want to reiterate that today it is very important that Russia has suspended any military action in the region. We believe that the illegal armed groups must disarm, and call on Russia to withdraw permission for the use of force in Ukraine "- said the president of the European Commission.
President of the European Commission believes that the recent attempts to direct the dialogue between the presidents of Ukraine and Russia contribute to establishing peace in the region
"I called prezydentku Poroshenko to discuss the situation in Ukraine., I welcomed his peace initiative and direct negotiations with Russia. The fact is that President Putin and President Poroshenko speak directly - is a positive step forward," - said Barroso.
http://www.eurointegration.com.ua/news/2014/06/12/7023332/
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This video shows very good footage of the battles between DPR Separatists and Ukrainian military forces to re-capture the airport at Donetsk. It's essentially footage of a British reporter who's embedded with the Separatists. You don't see any footage of Ukrainian soldiers except for footage of a helicopter.
The most interesting portion IMO is at about 8.43 in to the footage, when an elderly Ukrainian citizen, originally from Russia decries all of the radio from her "motherland Russia" as lies, lies, lies. She represents the more than 2/3rds of citizens caught in this fighting who apparently want Russia and their mercenaries to GET OUT of Ukraine.
Warning: Graphic footage of dead Separatist soldiers at the morgue about 10 minute in shows the real carnage of war.
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The world sings..
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The world sings..
Is that photo of ukrainians with their minister of foreign affairs? :chuckle:
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What ever.. :laugh:
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What ever.. :laugh:
Mike when you put images up like that don't you consider it hypocritical what with you being from America? People who live in glass houses and all that......... Russia is Ukraine's neighbour and will have to be at the negotiating table to reach any potential peaceful settlement.
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http://projectmaidan.com/post/88376875362/how-Kharkov-beat-the-separatists
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Try and focus on the subject at hand..
This is about Bloodymir Putin and Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
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Зараз у батальйоні "Донбас" є жіноча група. Дівчата, що пройшли Майдан, готуються до бойових дій на Сході.
Через пару днів вони поїдуть ...
There is a women's group within "Donbass" battalion. They were on Maydan and now they are preparing to go to the East of Ukraine. They will leave in a few days...
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These are all reports from Kharkov's Human Rights Protection Group. The group was formed in 1992, and has always advocated for the human rights of all citizens living on UKrainian territory.
(a) Alexander Reshetnyak, a Lugansk EuroMaidan activist has died in intensive care after being tortured by militants from the self-proclaimed Lugansk People’s Republic.
(b) The body was found on Thursday of Valery Salo, head of the Prosvita Society in Krasny Lyman (Donetsk oblast). According to Maria Oliynyk, a human rights activist from the area, Valery Salo had been abducted the day before by so-called Donetsk People’s Republic militants. She called Valery Salo a farmer who supported Ukrainian unity.
(c) The identity of the second person whose body was found with signs of torture in a Slovyansk river has been confirmed. Yury Popravko was 19 and a student of the Sociology and Law Faculty of the Kiev Polytechnic Institute. He had taken part in EuroMaidan.
His mother had earlier told TV 5 that she had not spoken with Yury since April 16 when he set out, together with friends, to visit his girlfriend, Dasha, who is studying in Kharkov. All contact with him was lost after he left Dasha’s home on April 17.
Yury’s mother has already been going through hell. When she tried to ring him, a stranger answered the phone and said that her son had died and that the telephone had been left “in order to find his friends”.
The fears that he was taken prisoner by the pro-Russian militants who have seized official buildings in Slovyansk seem to have been confirmed.
A different story is given by Gazeta.ua citing an anonymous source. This claims that on April 16, a group of five “young patriots” went “on a reconnaissance trip” to Slovyansk and there ended up in a battle with the pro-Russian “Donetsk Republic militants”. Two people ended up being taken prisoner – Yury Popravko and a 21-year-old from Vinnytsa, Vitaly, who gave an interview to the Russian media. The source asserts that Russia used the situation to claim that there had been an attack on “peaceful protesters” by Right Sector fighters. Right Sector is mentioned on just about every report about Ukraine, but the shootout on Sunday morning led to quite exceptional activity on the Internet. As reported, both the militants and Russian television triumphantly waved various items supposedly found looking remarkably undamaged in a gutted out car included something they claimed was a business card belonging to the head of Right Sector, Dmytro Yarosh.
This report clashes in important details with that given earlier. While it would explain how Popravko came to be so far from both Kiev and Kharkov, the information can simply not be verified.
(d) The body of Volodymyr Rybak, a Horlivka City Council deputy from the Batkivshchyna party abducted on April 17 was discovered washed up on the shore of the Seversky Donetsk river in Slovyansk.
The police and the Interim President Oleksandr Turchynov have spoken of two bodies found, but only identify Volodymyr Rybak. Rybak had been taking part in a rally in support of Ukraine’s unity outside the city council building in Horlivka. The police say that he went into the building for a meeting with the mayor, while the local newspaper suggests that it was to remove the flag of the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic. He got into conflict with pro-Russian militants, with all of this recorded on video.
This one is for posters who assert a ceasefire will end all bloodshed -
(d) An Orthodox priest, Father Pavlo Zhuchenko was shot dead at a pro-Russian militant checkpoint in Konstantinovka [Donetsk oblast] when asking the militants to stop their activities. The information, first tweeted by OstroV editor Serhiy Harmash, cites a source in Konstantinovka.
The press service of the Horlivka and Slovyansk Eparchy of the Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate informed OstroV that the dead man had been a priest in the eparchy, but had been defrocked.
(e) During the early hours of May 9 Kremlin-backed militants opened fire on two cars which tried to drive through their checkpoint. The male driver of the first car was killed, as was his wife driving the second. Their 10-year-old daughter, who was with her mother, is in a serious condition in hospital.
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Danylo, a district election committee member (we are not publishing his surname or photo due to an existing danger to his life), has spent five days in the torture chamber of a terrorist organization, the Donetsk People’s Republic [DPR]. . .
Danylo is 30 years old. He is a former private business owner. He lost his property, income, and health because of the self-proclaimed DPR. With a broken bone in his temple, kidney contusion, torn eardrum, and other consequences of his imprisonment, he is now being treated in one of the hospitals in the capital.
The terrorists captured Danylo and two other members of the [election] committee in which he worked on the eve of the presidential election. The captives spent the next five days in the basement of the SBU [Security Service of Ukraine] building in Donetsk Oblast, which is now under the control of the self-proclaimed deputy commander of the phoney Donetsk People’s Republic, Serhiy Zdrylyuk, nicknamed “Abwehr.” Talks on freeing the election committee members were held by UN representatives.
We are talking with the former hostage in a hospital corridor. Danylo has a furrow on his neck from strangulation, bandages hide cuts on his wrists, his legs and face are bruised. He cannot hear at all out of one ear.
How were you abducted?
Road police stopped me on the street for a minor infraction and called the DPR guys. Gunmen, armed with assault rifles, searched the car, found a Ukrainian flag, and told us we were under arrest. We were brought to the Donetsk SBU building, where everything was taken away. I had UAH 350, a bank card, three phones, some things, and training shoes.
After the first interrogation, a military orderly approached me. My hands were tied behind my back. He let me drink some water and started rummaging through my pockets.
There are different people there. Some are ideological. Some believe in justice. But most are in it just for the money. These people say, “Give me an honest business, which has purchase orders from Kiev, sign over your car and apartment to me.” That’s what they’re interested in.
Testimonies were beaten out by people who liked doing this. Some sympathized: “It’s easier for me to shoot a man than treat him cruelly.” Some received pleasure [from it], they would beat [me] and keep repeating, “Are you afraid of me? Do you want to live?”
What was asked during the interrogations?
The interrogators were people who absolutely did not understand what the elections in Ukraine were or what carousel [voting] meant. They do not understand life here. They asked how I got into the elections, which organizations were setting up the falsifications. When I said that it was the Party of Regions, I thought I was gonna get it in the liver. But they didn’t know the difference between the Party of Regions and Svoboda. Besides Right Sector, they didn’t know anything.
They really are paranoid about Right Sector, they demanded that I turn in Pravoseks [members of the far-right group Pravy Sektor], Euromaidan protestors, and other election organizers. They asked who my friends were and whether I was at Maidan.
They suggested [that I] lure out the district election committee head, so that they could abduct him. They hit me with whatever they could find all over my body. I had a bootprint on my back for a long time.
How did you spend your days imprisoned?
In the darkness. Blindfolded. In a basement. Alone on a concrete floor where there was a piece of foam plastic from shotgun cases. 55 by 70 cm–that’s how big my “bed” was. I measured it with my elbow, and back at home I made sure. You could lie only in a fetal position.
For one-and-half days my hands were tied behind my back. My hands and shoulders got swollen. They untied my hands when they fed me, took me to the restroom, and put me to work. Once when they left me with my hands untied, I tried to commit suicide.
My shoulders were really swollen and aching, so lying on a cold basement floor was somewhat pleasant.
Later, they took me out to work in the yard. I had to disassemble high voltage cables–coils [of cable] were standing there (he laughs–Ed.). Well, what else was there for the DPR guys to do besides take apart high-voltage cables for the copper? And we also loaded the sand…
The work alternated with the beatings. All the while they kept trying to recruit me. They said many people went over to their side after the interrogations. But you shouldn’t believe that, they lie there en masse.
Is it true that they are all crazed with orthodoxy there?
For them, torture and victimization are normally combined with orthodoxy. There is a chapel in the SBU yard, and an orthodox priest attended it. When I tried to hang myself, they started berating me for sinning. Furthermore, one of the torturers said he attended the SBU chapel regularly. I asked him, “How come you can pray away the hundreds of lives you’ve taken, but God won’t forgive me for taking one life–my own?” He replied, “Well, that’s the way it is.”
Did you see other captives?
When I was taken out of the solitary cell, they led a Pole there. He was a Roman Catholic priest. They wound him all up in tape and didn’t even want to enter his cell afterwards, so he probably had to soil himself. They announced him to be a nonconformist. He told them, “I’m a Catholic,” and they replied, “Yeah, we’ve had a Scientologist like you here.” Catholics and Scientologists are the same to them… I doubt they’ve ever held a Bible.
There was also a journalist among the captives with a residency permit from Lvov.
They go through the cells and do roll-calls, while I listen and weigh the information. So, I found out that at the time of my abduction there were 23 people in the SBU basement, and by the time my colleagues and I left, there were 30.
Why did you try to kill yourself?
Before the suicide [attempt] they were beating [me] particularly well. I thought they would beat me to my death. They threatened to slaughter my family. They demanded that I turn in to them those I knew. “Think of a way to lure them out, and we’ll treat you differently.” I couldn’t bring myself to entice people.
They gave me two hours to sleep on it and promised torture after that. That’s what they said–torture. I found the key to my apartment in my pocket and started sharpening it against the concrete floor. I tried to open a vein. I had to saw, that was unpleasant… It didn’t work out, there wasn’t much blood. So, I took the laces out of my sneakers and made a noose (after me, they took everyone’s shoelaces away)… I regained my senses in another cell. At first, I was barely aware of anything and couldn’t hear much. It seemed as if people were moving silently around me and doing things I couldn’t understand. I bit through my tongue when I hung myself, and they couldn’t unclench my jaw for some time. I was resuscitated by their doctors–also separatists. There were also women among them–I think one of them was pregnant.
When they resuscitated me, they threw me on the floor and poured water on me for a long time. They told me that a military orderly found me hanging. He was a normal guy, 18 years old. He said to me, “You might not believe it, but I haven’t laid a finger on anyone.”
After the hanging, epileptic fits started, but my [attempted] suicide might have saved my life.
Are there many Russian [citizens] there in the SBU building? What’s their role?
It’s hard to tell the exact number, but there’s quite a few Russians there. There are also people from the Caucasus. Everything is run by GRU men (GRU, Main Intelligence Directorate, the Russian Defense Ministry’s foreign intelligence service–Auth.). I overheard some phrases and passages and realized that a lot of them had been in Crimea.
The Russian officers were planning to commission one fighter from the ranks of the local insurgents for their own needs. The DPR supporters from Donetsk were undergoing a kind of exam in the SBU [building], and we were the teaching material. All the other DPR supporters from Donetsk serve as Cargo 200 (cannon fodder–Auth.).
There were insurgents among the captives as well–some wound up in the cells for getting drunk, others for drunk rioting. I spoke with one of them–he said he was from a commanding unit and took away someone’s car while drunk. For that, he was sent to load sand, just like me. Such people are like consumables there.
Can you give names or nicknames?
Their leader is Vladimir Ivanovich Kerch. I wouldn’t call him cruel, he is quite an interesting person. He was the only one who controlled everything, including even… I’m guessing the “Abwehrs” and “Strelkovs” don’t make the decisions. I came to the conclusion that he had about 20 years of war behind him.
Those who did the beatings wore masks, and more often than not I was blindfolded during the interrogations. I identified them by their mannerisms and voices. They were conducting their investigation, while I conducted my own.
The most evil was Svyat [means “holy”]. He was about 20–22 years old with a Moscow accent. He was called Kerch’s son, I don’t know if that’s true. He is like an evil child who is allowed to do anything. When they were driving us to the SBU, someone said the phrase, “So long as Svyat doesn’t get them, I can’t work with people after what he does to them.” I understand that I ended up with him. I got it in the head from this Svyat.
Svyat immediately told me, “I’m from Russia, the Kremlin School (Moscow Higher Military Command School–Auth.).
They call each other by nicknames. There was Hunter, South, Skull–I think the last one’s [real] name was Yuriy.
They called us “politicals.”
I’d like to point out that the groups inside the ODA (the regional state administration building seized by terrorists–Auth.) and the SBU are completely different. There, where I was, that was Abwehr’s group.
What other tortures did they use against you? Which one was the worst?
One night they got me up, stood me against a wall, and silently started beating me with electroshocks. After the [attempted] suicide, they tied my hands in different places and also tied up my legs. They left me like that for eight hours. But this wasn’t so important compared to how much I worried about my family while I was there. There was also this one moment: they were beating a man right in front of me and told me that his life depended on me. It was terrifying that people I knew could suffer. They promised to shoot me, to cripple me, to send me to a Russian prison for ten years or so.
Although, they are shameless liars there. One of them said, “Nine men were beating me, but I didn’t hang myself,” and the next day another one told me the same tale about nine men. And everyone there had either a pregnant girlfriend killed by Maidan supporters or a brother burned alive. Some said this was in Odesa. Others said, “My brother in the Berkut was burned in Kiev.” You can’t trust them–niether when they threaten to shoot you nor promise to set you free. Now when I hear the Russian akanye [characteristic of the Russian accent], my defenses go up–I perceive it as a stupid lie.
How did you get free?
First, they nearly seized the members of the UN mission who went to negotiate with them. Then they told them there were no people like me or my colleagues inside the SBU. Next, Kerch summoned us and said they’d done a check and were setting us free. When we were leaving, I got so bold that I said, “Give me a certificate of release,” and he wrote up some little paper.
We left with the Donetsk police. There were several men in civilian clothes. They took us beyond the perimeter, put us into police cars, and drove us to the municipal UMVS [Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs]. We were brought into the office of the chief Yuriy Sednev. And they said, “Thank this man, he’s the one that got you out and decided everything.” They were referring to the chief of the Donetsk police.
It seems like the Donetsk cops know those who perform the abductions and tortures.
When I was at the SBU, I often got the impression that local SBU men were nearby. They called themselves operatives. There were quite a few of them there. And the Donetsk police… they’re allowed in there. They keep in touch. It’s just like after the Maidan victory in Kiev when the Maidan Self-defense patrolled together with the police, but there the police work with the DPR. They copy many things from Maidan.
What mistakes should you avoid if you’re captured?
I didn’t show much emotion. I think it saved my life, as well as the lives of others through whom they tried to influence me. They forced one person, who was with me in the [election] committee, to tell them the PIN to their credit card by threatening to kill me. Some do break there. One of the captives told them he could help them–to tell them where the troops were and to send poisoned food there… Referring to him, they told me, “See, he’s good, he’s cooperating.”
By the way, cigarettes are also a means of influence there. So, I quit [smoking]. After my [attempted] suicide, they offered me a smoke, and I replied, “No, smoking is bad for your health.”
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/06/17/a-freed-hostage-from-the-dpr-i-thought-they-would-beat-me-to-death-they-threatened-to-slaughter-my-family/
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Ukraine's disappeared.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/17/the-26-year-old-woman-searching-for-ukraine-s-disappeared.html
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searched the car, found a Ukrainian flag, and told us we were under arrest. We were brought to the Donetsk SBU building, where everything was taken away. I had UAH 350, a bank card, three phones, some things, and training shoes.
Regular folk don't carry national flags of another nation (as Donetsk has declared independence) and three phones in a car in a civil war. The man was clearly an activist of some kind and detained accordingly.
He wasn't taking his kids to the park......
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searched the car, found a Ukrainian flag, and told us we were under arrest. We were brought to the Donetsk SBU building, where everything was taken away. I had UAH 350, a bank card, three phones, some things, and training shoes.
Regular folk don't carry national flags of another nation (as Donetsk has declared independence) and three phones in a car in a civil war. The man was clearly an activist of some kind and detained accordingly.
He wasn't taking his kids to the park......
Manny what's wrong with carrying 3 phones and a flag? I know lots of people with multiple phones. I have 2 that I usually carry at all times. Many business colleagues I know have 3 or more. Each one is for a different business, different phone numbers for each. As for the national flag, maybe he's a patriot, like in the US where US flags abound.
Think that idea would fly in the UK? UK police detain everyone with 3 or more phones and a Pakistani flag in their house or car as a terrorist?
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searched the car, found a Ukrainian flag, and told us we were under arrest. We were brought to the Donetsk SBU building, where everything was taken away. I had UAH 350, a bank card, three phones, some things, and training shoes.
Regular folk don't carry national flags of another nation (as Donetsk has declared independence) and three phones in a car in a civil war. The man was clearly an activist of some kind and detained accordingly.
He wasn't taking his kids to the park......
Donetsk has not declared independence. Separatists, many of whom are criminals, aided and funded by thugs from Russia, hold pockets of the city, and the region. They don't control the entire oblast, nor even the entire 200 km triangle they are terrorizing at present, and they don't represent the majority of the populace in either province, who, as I noted in the Gazprom thread, are predominantly ethnic Ukrainians.
A Ukrainian citizen, working for the Party of Regions (you know, that Ukrainian political party?) in the presidential election, had a Ukrainian flag, as part of his electoral work. No, he wasn't taking his kids to the park. He was working in an election. Imagine that, a Ukrainian citizen, carrying a Ukrainian flag, in Ukraine. In any event, if what you assert were accurate (it is not), then what kind of a democracy is this pro Russian region? Even in the totalitarian USSR, the better half had an American flag in his room, sent by a friend who had emigrated. He hung it up as a reminder that somewhere, men were free to speak, and live, as they chose.
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Think that idea would fly in the UK? UK police detain everyone with 3 or more phones and a Pakistani flag in their house or car as a terrorist?
In a civil war? I expect they would.
But really, I mostly skim over your silly comments now without reading and move to the next. You have a scant grasp of reality and I am not your social worker. I wont waste my time rebutting something random you found on Google. Unlike you, I am not retired, so my time has value.
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Given that the Vostok Batallion has proclaimed it will play the lead role among the pro separatists, and Vostok is comprised almost exclusively of citizens of the Russian Federation, one can hardly call the conflict a civil war.
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searched the car, found a Ukrainian flag, and told us we were under arrest. We were brought to the Donetsk SBU building, where everything was taken away. I had UAH 350, a bank card, three phones, some things, and training shoes.
Regular folk don't carry national flags of another nation (as Donetsk has declared independence) and three phones in a car in a civil war. The man was clearly an activist of some kind and detained accordingly.
He wasn't taking his kids to the park......
Manny what's wrong with carrying 3 phones and a flag? I know lots of people with multiple phones. I have 2 that I usually carry at all times. Many business colleagues I know have 3 or more. Each one is for a different business, different phone numbers for each. As for the national flag, maybe he's a patriot, like in the US where US flags abound.
Two to three cell phones in Ukraine is very normal. Moreso than in the West. They use a different carrier to speak to different people as calling someone within the same provider is free. Don't think the "unlimited" type accounts have hit there yet.
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Think that idea would fly in the UK? UK police detain everyone with 3 or more phones and a Pakistani flag in their house or car as a terrorist?
In a civil war? I expect they would.
But really, I mostly skim over your silly comments now without reading and move to the next. You have a scant grasp of reality and I am not your social worker. I wont waste my time rebutting something random you found on Google. Unlike you, I am not retired, so my time has value.
It's no civil war. Just a bunch of thugs mostly from across the border trying to promote the idea of one with the help of you know who. Donetsk is not an independent state.
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Donetsk is not an independent state.
Donetsk has not declared independence.
They are working on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic) though.
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Quebec's been working on it for more than fifty years. There are separatist movements in my province, and in Westy's. We see how successful they have all been. The reason? In Quebec, a majority of Quebecers have never voted "oui". In Alberta and BC, the movements are fringe. Of course, in none of Canada's separatist movements has the nation had to cope with a much bigger and more powerful neighbour having its secret service meet with hired "separatists" to instruct them in subversive tactics, fund them, have its citizens enter our territory with arms, rocket launchers, anti aircraft missiles, etc., and unleash its government controlled media propaganda machine on us, all while having the chutzpah to claim it is "saving" us.
Perhaps our movements would have unleashed the violence the separatists have in the Donetsk triangle had we a similar neighbour. There certainly was a violent element in the Quebec separatist movement in the 1960's. Fortunately, our neighbour didn't fund them or aid them in any way, and our prime minister of the day, at the behest of the mayor of Montreal and the premier of Quebec, declared the War Measures Act, which suspended most civil rights for anyone on the state's radar. Our powerful neighbour did not interfere in our domestic turmoil. So, the violence associated with Quebec's separatist movement was short lived.
Separation can only be achieved when the majority of the inhabitants living on the lands at issue desire separation. That is not the case in Donetsk, no matter what the oligarchs or others with their own agendas, who are funding the criminals claiming to be "separatists", wish.
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Separation can only be achieved when the majority of the inhabitants living on the lands at issue desire separation. That is not the case in Donetsk, no matter what the oligarchs or others with their own agendas who are funding the criminals claiming to be "separatists", wish.
Honestly, how many times does this have to be repeated before those who have lost all sense of objectivity and have become such sheep to Russian propaganda finally wake up and see the reality?
There is no dignity in stubbornly holding onto a viewpoint that lost any sense of relevance weeks ago.
But really Manny, I mostly skim over your silly comments now without reading and move to the next. You have a scant grasp of reality and I am not your social worker. I wont waste my time rebutting something random you found on Google RT.
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Donetsk is not an independent state.
Donetsk has not declared independence.
They are working on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic) though.
Thanks. I needed a good laugh.
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Because I am interested in this stuff I read quite a lot and even end up watching more than I normally like to do (video is just sooooo info lite compared to the written word).
I have written before about the economics of the situation in Ukraine and why that means Ukraine is not an independent actor even though some people want it to be so.
I have written about the EU and why it makes no sense for Ukraine to sign it and why Ukraine can not afford it. (and yes, I too understand that Ukrainians were misled about the benefits of the agreement and the implications of the agreement for the people of that poor country)
Well the other day I read an article that did a very good job of looking at Ukraine's troubles from an economic perspective. (http://valdaiclub.com/near_abroad/69545.html)
Here is a chart that when I saw it immediately made clear the role of Ukraine in an economy aligned toward the EU. Bear in mind that overall, this evidence suggests that the EU and Russia are roughly equal contributors to Ukraine in money terms of exports from Ukraine:
(http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/739.jpg)
naked link in case the image dies: http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/739.jpg
See how the numbers on the top are very similar. But then look at where the numbers for the contributing sectors of Ukraine industry are.
You will see that considering the exports in terms of value added that Russia has a very strong tendency to import high technology products from Ukraine and the EU imports raw materials or low-value added goods.
Huh, money is money, some of you say. Others, among you are hearing the gentle ring and tinkle of a penny dropping to a hard floor.
You see, the economy makes more money (profit) from the export of goods that have been transformed from raw materials to finished goods within the economy. Consider for a moment the line item 'railroad vehicles and trams' the EU imports just $3million, Russia imports almost 900 times as much of this class of good $2.6billion.
Look at 'nuclear reactors, boilers etc.' a similar tale: Russia imports $2.3billion and the EU just $4million almost 600 times as much as the EU.
This is important because all those railway carriages, all the trains and trams, all the nuclear reactors all needed the metals, wood, oils, chemistry that are exported but to make them Ukrainian firms buy the raw materials from local producers, turn them into something new and much more valuable and then sell them.
All these high tech products need trained technicians, scientists, engineers, researchers whoa are all trained in Ukrainian universities. They earn (relatively) high wages, they spend those ages in local businesses buying food, housing, consumer goods and services.
Yes, Ukraine makes a profit when selling ferrous metals but the technology involved is of a much lower level, requires less expertise and training and instead of two (or more) levels of profit being made there's just one and the EU making the trains, cars, nuclear reactors make the gravy.
So, we can see where the benefit lies - it is obvious.
But there's more!
If Ukraine ends up saddled with the EU they have to set up new standards, the products that used to be sold to Russia will not suit the Russian market any longer (ask an engineer about GOST and DIN). So, it will be harder for Russian firms to buy Ukrainian goods so now those exports will be lost. The Russians may, if they are pissed off decide to erect against Ukraine the same tariff barriers that he EU sets up against Russia. Now Ukraine will not even be able to afford to buy in raw materials from Russia - and the EU is NOT a cheap source of raw materials.
But look here:
(http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/740.jpg)
naked link: http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/740.jpg
This is the counterpart for the exports: imports. Look how what the EU sells to Ukraine is the high tech/added value products that are currently exported to Russia. So, the EU buys the raw materials from Ukraine (and other places) adds value by transforming them into higher technology goods and sells them to Ukraine (at a good profit).
Again we can see that the value of the imports is roughly similar between the EU and Russia but the direction is much more 'healthy' between Russia and Ukraine than it is between EU and Ukraine.
The linked article has a lot to say and is well worth reading but one thing that I'd like to note, albeit in different words, in the article is this: whether the goods are finished, added value products or raw materials, the large majority of them, in value terms, come from the east and south of the country. Ukraine can not afford to destroy these businesses, as they are doing now. Ukraine can not afford to alienate the workers and managers in those businesses. as they are doing right now.
While the intent of the IMF loan conditions may have been evil, the rationale was sound. The value in Ukraine, for now at least, is in the eastern and southern oblasti that are filled with subhuman terrorists (according to the prime minister of Ukraine).
If you understood that you were a sub human terrorist how hard would you work for the benefit of those who thought of you in that way?
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Andrew, I will give you credit. You do an incredible amount of work, to convince people you are right.
But anyone who understands business, gets the obvious. Know the troubles and pitfalls ahead.
I don't think anyone believes short term, Ukraine will benefit. But if you consider the past 20+ years.
How have they done? What they want and need as posted by many is simple.
To fix the corruption, and determine their own future. Like most free countries do.
To think that does not come at costs and pain in short term, is crazy.
Ask most 40 + old Ukrainians, they get, what is happening, may never benefit themselves.
But it will their children and grand children. For this they fight.
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NS1, sadly you did not understand what you read. Try the original article there's much more info there. Look at how the regional budgets have been allocated in relation to the revenue from the regions. That'll clarify the 'long term' aspects for you. ;)
I do not try to persuade anyone of anything. People learn for themselves, people change their own minds. All that one can reasonably do is share information and enable people to learn for themselves.
Two things though:
Since independence corruption has been a huge drag upon the economy. Without change then Ukraine can not improve.
The difference in productivity between the regions will still exist even if there were no corruption because the difference between oblasti is not a function of corruption but of the value they add to the national economy.
This means that unless Ukraine can have a healthy economic mix in which added value goods exports take place in a healthy proportion then no matter how much, or little, corruption exists, Ukraine will always remain poor. Agriculture is not a feasible way to have a largely urban population be well off. Almost 70% of the population live in cities. They can not live on the product of the land, even if the EU were to allow Ukraine to maximize the efficiency of its agrarian industry. You might want to read up on the EU's Common Agriculture Policy about that. ;)
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NS1, sadly you did not understand what you read. Try the original article there's much more info there. Look at how the regional budgets have been allocated in relation to the revenue from the regions. That'll clarify the 'long term' aspects for you. ;)
I do not try to persuade anyone of anything. People learn for themselves, people change their own minds. All that one can reasonably do is share information and enable people to learn for themselves.
Two things though:
Since independence corruption has been a huge drag upon the economy. Without change then Ukraine can not improve.
The difference in productivity between the regions will still exist even if there were no corruption because the difference between oblasti is not a function of corruption but of the value they add to the national economy.
This means that unless Ukraine can have a healthy economic mix in which added value goods exports take place in a healthy proportion then no matter how much, or little, corruption exists, Ukraine will always remain poor. Agriculture is not a feasible way to have a largely urban population be well off. Almost 70% of the population live in cities. They can not live on the product of the land, even if the EU were to allow Ukraine to maximize the efficiency of its agrarian industry. You might want to read up on the EU's Common Agriculture Policy about that. ;)
Andrew I understood, just fine as always, you don't.
In the G-8 or even 20 countries all do?
Invest in the countries future as well as business.
If they stop the corruption, they will and can have money to do this along, with better infrastructure.
This takes time and considering Ukraine's past and present, all know not an easy road.
They have a few key things to build this, Natural resources and a good work force.
Being under Russia's thumb, does not help, yet I think they need to trade with as many as possible, like most
free countries try to do.
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The self proclaimed Donetsk People Republic's army have posted an announcement "requesting" locals shelter them.
A loose translation of part of the link -
A resident of Kramatorsk, Iryna (stated) people have already moved into some homes. “Almost all of them are from outside, not locals. They force people to put either one, or three – four people up, depending on the size of the flat and how many people live there. They claim that they’re fighting for us while we’re sitting in our homes, they have to help”.
The announcement (warns) that “any attempt at forced resistance will be crushed according to the laws of wartime.”
http://www.0629.com.ua/article/557522?utm_source=api&utm_medium=api
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The self proclaimed Donetsk People Republic's army have posted an announcement "requesting" locals shelter them.
A loose translation of part of the link -
A resident of Kramatorsk, Iryna (stated) people have already moved into some homes. “Almost all of them are from outside, not locals. They force people to put either one, or three – four people up, depending on the size of the flat and how many people live there. They claim that they’re fighting for us while we’re sitting in our homes, they have to help”.
The announcement (warns) that “any attempt at forced resistance will be crushed according to the laws of wartime.”
http://www.0629.com.ua/article/557522?utm_source=api&utm_medium=api
Halo would the average Ukrainian in the Donetsk region have access to guns to fight the pro Russian forces?
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Because I am interested in this stuff I read quite a lot and even end up watching more than I normally like to do (video is just sooooo info lite compared to the written word).
I have written before about the economics of the situation in Ukraine and why that means Ukraine is not an independent actor even though some people want it to be so.
I have written about the EU and why it makes no sense for Ukraine to sign it and why Ukraine can not afford it. (and yes, I too understand that Ukrainians were misled about the benefits of the agreement and the implications of the agreement for the people of that poor country)
Well the other day I read an article that did a very good job of looking at Ukraine's troubles from an economic perspective. (http://valdaiclub.com/near_abroad/69545.html)
Here is a chart that when I saw it immediately made clear the role of Ukraine in an economy aligned toward the EU. Bear in mind that overall, this evidence suggests that the EU and Russia are roughly equal contributors to Ukraine in money terms of exports from Ukraine:
(http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/739.jpg)
naked link in case the image dies: http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/739.jpg
See how the numbers on the top are very similar. But then look at where the numbers for the contributing sectors of Ukraine industry are.
You will see that considering the exports in terms of value added that Russia has a very strong tendency to import high technology products from Ukraine and the EU imports raw materials or low-value added goods.
Huh, money is money, some of you say. Others, among you are hearing the gentle ring and tinkle of a penny dropping to a hard floor.
You see, the economy makes more money (profit) from the export of goods that have been transformed from raw materials to finished goods within the economy. Consider for a moment the line item 'railroad vehicles and trams' the EU imports just $3million, Russia imports almost 900 times as much of this class of good $2.6billion.
Look at 'nuclear reactors, boilers etc.' a similar tale: Russia imports $2.3billion and the EU just $4million almost 600 times as much as the EU.
Andrew, where to begin? It's OK to have a difference of opinion but when the facts are staring you in the face and you can't interpret them correctly that's a sign you don't know what you're talking about.
Let's take a look at Table 2 and discuss your flawed analysis. On the line titled 'railroad vehicles and trams' Russia imports $2.6 billion. The EU imports $300 million NOT $3 million. $0.3 billion equals $300 million not $3 million. That means Russia imports about 9 times as much of this product from Ukraine as the EU, NOT 900 times as much.
Again, let's take a look at Table 2 and discuss your flawed analysis. On the line titled 'nuclear reactors, boilers etc.' Russia imports $2.3 billion. The EU imports $400 million NOT $4 million. $0.4 billion equals $400 million not $4 million. That means Russia imports about 6 times as much of this product from Ukraine as the EU, NOT 600 times as much.
If you can't interpret a simple table of data correctly how can anyone rely on a more complex analysis from you? Has the penny dropped now?
Would an independent Ukraine that has joined the EU or is on the road to joining the EU be able to export to Russia? I don't see why not. Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority. Russia has voiced concerns of the rights of the Russian speakers yet dispute all this political hyperbole between the 2 countries Russia is still a significant market for Estonian exports and imports. (http://www.estonianexport.ee/?page=b44&lang=eng) Other EU countries such as Germany also do business with Russia. Why couldn't Ukraine?
This is important because all those railway carriages, all the trains and trams, all the nuclear reactors all needed the metals, wood, oils, chemistry that are exported but to make them Ukrainian firms buy the raw materials from local producers, turn them into something new and much more valuable and then sell them.
All these high tech products need trained technicians, scientists, engineers, researchers whoa are all trained in Ukrainian universities. They earn (relatively) high wages, they spend those ages in local businesses buying food, housing, consumer goods and services.
Yes, Ukraine makes a profit when selling ferrous metals but the technology involved is of a much lower level, requires less expertise and training and instead of two (or more) levels of profit being made there's just one and the EU making the trains, cars, nuclear reactors make the gravy.
So, we can see where the benefit lies - it is obvious.
But there's more!
If Ukraine ends up saddled with the EU they have to set up new standards, the products that used to be sold to Russia will not suit the Russian market any longer (ask an engineer about GOST and DIN). So, it will be harder for Russian firms to buy Ukrainian goods so now those exports will be lost. The Russians may, if they are pissed off decide to erect against Ukraine the same tariff barriers that he EU sets up against Russia. Now Ukraine will not even be able to afford to buy in raw materials from Russia - and the EU is NOT a cheap source of raw materials.
As I mentioned above other EU countries do business with Russia why wouldn't Ukraine be able to do the same? If tiny Estonia can carry on a brisk trading relationship with Russia so can Ukraine. France another EU member also does billions of dollars in trade with Russia. (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/profile/country/fra/) Why couldn't Ukraine?
Former USSR satellites such as Poland and Hungary have raised their standards of living significantly since joining the EU as has Estonia. Again why couldn't Ukraine follow the same path?
But look here:
(http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/740.jpg)
naked link: http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/photo/active/740.jpg
This is the counterpart for the exports: imports. Look how what the EU sells to Ukraine is the high tech/added value products that are currently exported to Russia. So, the EU buys the raw materials from Ukraine (and other places) adds value by transforming them into higher technology goods and sells them to Ukraine (at a good profit).
Again we can see that the value of the imports is roughly similar between the EU and Russia but the direction is much more 'healthy' between Russia and Ukraine than it is between EU and Ukraine.
The linked article has a lot to say and is well worth reading but one thing that I'd like to note, albeit in different words, in the article is this: whether the goods are finished, added value products or raw materials, the large majority of them, in value terms, come from the east and south of the country. Ukraine can not afford to destroy these businesses, as they are doing now. Ukraine can not afford to alienate the workers and managers in those businesses. as they are doing right now.
How is the imports to Russia from Ukraine much more 'healthy'? Russia supplies Ukraine with natural gas, fuel and crude oil, the EU doesn't. In the other Ukrainian import categories imports from Russia and the EU are about the same or the imports from the EU are greater.
The article was a simplistic piece of economic journalism that you couldn't interpret correctly. Stick to your rants about CIA conspiracies in Ukraine, your attempts at economic analysis leave much to be desired.
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
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Westcoast, time for you to be honest, yes, honest, you know that while I got the decimal point wrong it does not change the point in the slightest. Or, truth be told you'd know if you actually had the knowledge and training that you claim.
Next, Westcoast, if you were what you claim to have been before you were fired/made redundant /downsized/deemed surplus to requirements you'd know about the difference to an economy made by exporting manufactures and processed goods rather than raw materials. Given that you are trying to suggest otherwise tells me, and anyone else who knows anything about business and the basic economics related to the topic, that you have little or no real knowledge of that in which you claim expertise.
If you were what you have claimed then you'd know of the benefits of adding value to raw materials and why exporting processed goods (manufactures) is better for the economy than selling raw materials or partially processed goods. That the further up the value chain a business, or economy, works the better off that business or economy tends to be.
When you seized with glee upon my numeric error you showed everybody reading your words the limits of your knowledge - you are capable of driving a calculator, no more. You just showed us your level of expertise - you were a bank teller who might have received loan applications for others to deal with.
Westcoast don't bother to brag about your 'business expertise' you just showed the limitations on your knowledge and skill. There's nothing wrong with being a bank teller, a necessary (albeit to a lesser degree these days) job. Just don't try to claim that which you have made absolutely self evident is not true. You do not have the basic economic and business knowledge to understand the value to a business or economy of the transformation of raw materials into finished goods.
The numbers I calculated incorrectly don't matter, look at the charts, they are correct, I made a mistake in making them more easily understood. However given that all you got from them was my mental arithmetic error. Because you did not understand what the charts meant, we know that no bank would have employed you to advise real businesses and that no real business would have relied upon your 'expertise'.
Westcoast, as always, the numbers tell a story. You do not have enough basic knowledge to see the real story
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
Yes, to some degree Manny and I disagree a little. I see that there is some discrimination against Russian speakers, but I also know, as does Manny and anyone else who knows, rather than relying upon misunderstood documents written by others, that the situation for 'Russians' in this country is, still, significantly better, in many respects, than it is in Russia. People choose which passport to hold, and they choose the one that suits them best. I think the issue of language is a mistake and should not have been dealt with as it was, but now, more than 20 years after independence people can choose where they go and nowadays they choose the passport they hold to suit their lifestyles.
You see, Westcoast, you make assumptions based upon your prejudices and lack of knowledge. You do not know that, for example, holders of 'grey' passports (Russians) can change them to the normal style easily enough, but that many do not because they prefer the freedom the grey passport gives - it does not stop anyone moving around Europe (with the possible exception of a little more paperwork in the UK). The grey passport makes it easier to move, live and work eastward, so for ethnic Russians (and Ukrainians, and Tatars, Belorussians and Moldavians) the grey passport is more useful on practical levels than the full passport.
We have loads of tourists coming over from Russia these days and that has made employment much easier for those who choose to limit their language learning and provides opportunities for those who choose no limits.
Basically, Westcoast, you do not have the faintest idea of what you are blathering about. Life may be very comfortable in your Lay Z Boy, but it is not open and you withdraw into your world of fantasies and prejudices. You may be an old man but you can do better than that.
You are, once again, operating beyond the limits of your comprehension. You'd be better off trying to learn rather than bullshitting about matters that you obviously know nothing about.
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Halo would the average Ukrainian in the Donetsk region have access to guns to fight the pro Russian forces?
Why ask such a silly question?
The answer is obvious - it is obvious that there are guns. However, why would there be internecine unrest between these people? They are members of the same community, get shelled and shot at by the National Guard and regular army and get called 'terrorists'. Of course, as is usual, only a small minority are involved in the fighting, right now just a few percent, most stay at home or try to continue their lives. Later, perhaps 10% will be enrolled in the resistance, but not yet.
You may also be misunderstanding on a fundamental level what is going on - well, it is obvious that you are. The communities in the east and south are under threat, under attack. There's nobody going round from the junta marking houses to NOT be shelled. Schools to NOT be mortared, factories to not be shelled, water treatment plants to be avoided. There's no badges to identify from miles away. All these people are 'colorados' and 'terrorists' in the eyes of those trying to kill them. You also, obviously, do not understand that among those resisting the junta forces are people who, once upon a time, resisted the junta because of what they were doing but saw their future as part of Ukraine. That situation has changed, positions are polarised. That is why it is quite clear that the 'ceasefire' is a ploy to trick the residents of the areas under attack and siege.
Info about gun ownership and availability in Ukraine: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cp/ukraine
Westcoast, Google is your friend.
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Andrew I understood, just fine as always, you don't.
In the G-8 or even 20 countries all do?
Invest in the countries future as well as business.
If they stop the corruption, they will and can have money to do this along, with better infrastructure.
This takes time and considering Ukraine's past and present, all know not an easy road.
They have a few key things to build this, Natural resources and a good work force.
Being under Russia's thumb, does not help, yet I think they need to trade with as many as possible, like most
free countries try to do.
NS1, now I understand. You are making a fundamental error here. You are not alone, there's lots of people like you, some quite bright. Ukraine is NOT under Russia's thumb. Russia is a very important trading partner with a roughly similar volume of bilateral trade between the EU and Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine. Although, as you can see from the data I shared already, the trade with Russia is a much more healthy sort than between the EU and Ukraine.
Worse yet, in terms of your unfounded fantasy, only Russia was willing to provide the structural funding that Ukraine urgently needs without exclusions upon Ukrainian trade. The EU was insisting, and still does insist, that Ukraine ceases working with Russia in bilateral trade and the US are making it hard for Ukraine to even buy in ts needed energy from Russia. This will mean the end of much of Ukraine's capacity to supply high tech products. Worse yet, the EU does not even want to allow Ukrainian agriculture to be as efficient as it can be and has been because the EU is massively over farmed. In fact, as I recall, it is US interests who are involved in Ukraine agriculture and they seek the 'open market' in order to be able to buy land that at the moment they rent.
On the other hand, Russia made no limitations upon Ukraine's choices in respect of working with the EU - albeit, given recent events they have now done so; at least they make noises about it. Russia simply did not want Ukraine to join NATO.
I bet that you NS1 do not know this but joining NATO is also against the previously stated policies of Svoboda and the other major other political parties. Ukraine, for various reasons, does not want NATO any more than Russia wants them to have it. Sadly, NATO association was (and remains) a part of the package with the EU, one was a stalking horse for the other. Of course we don't talk about this now, especially given that Crimea is no longer available to NATO.
But to return to corruption for a moment. You do understand (or probably not) that reduction of corruption is a systemic thing? One does not say 'no more corruption from henceforth' and it goes away. Corruption has many forms and exists for many reasons. In Russia (and Ukraine) a large part of corruption was (is), strange as it may seem, an alternative form of funding for civil services for which adequate funding is not available from the national exchequer. The police don't have enough money for wages so the local police department rents out its Gatso equipment to the police and they go collect some speeding fines.
The doctors are not well enough paid so patients provide the docs with gifts of money, food or drink enabling the doctor to concentrate upon his work. This stuff is MUCH less common in Russia now and pretty much invisible in Estonia but I remember when it was common in both places. Wealth makes much of this stuff go away because the environment that allows the infection to breed is cleaned up.
So, corruption will not be reduced significantly without improving the economy. Bribes are an alternate form of 'service' funding. Unless the economy grows and is healthy then alternate funding can not be dispensed with because the tax revenues are not enough to provide the needed (and demanded) services.
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
Not according to the Kremlin (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0321/Moscow-rattles-Estonia-with-talk-of-concern-for-its-Russian-population).
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
Not according to the Kremlin (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0321/Moscow-rattles-Estonia-with-talk-of-concern-for-its-Russian-population).
That article does not suggest what you said.
The issue that the article touches on is that using language, Estonia tries (without much success) to marginalise Russian speakers and force them to learn Estonian, which many have no need or desire to do. What they do is small-minded but it doesn't really affect so many people. The reality is that what you said is simply wrong, Estonia isn't "having problems" with the Russian speakers, who outnumber Estonian speakers in many places anyway. Most of the time the two groups coexist well enough; no different to English and Welsh speakers in Wales.
It is a small country in close proximity to many other tongues. The Estonians can be a tad isolationist in regards to their language, but as so few people speak it natively, it is mostly a pipe dream. You can do almost anything you want in Estonia in Russian, Finnish or English, and probably Swedish too. If you want to buy something off them, they will miraculously speak any language you want. :chuckle:
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Quebec's been working on it for more than fifty years. There are separatist movements in my province, and in Westy's. We see how successful they have all been. The reason? In Quebec, a majority of Quebecers have never voted "oui". In Alberta and BC, the movements are fringe. Of course, in none of Canada's separatist movements has the nation had to cope with a much bigger and more powerful neighbour having its secret service meet with hired "separatists" to instruct them in subversive tactics, fund them, have its citizens enter our territory with arms, rocket launchers, anti aircraft missiles, etc., and unleash its government controlled media propaganda machine on us, all while having the chutzpah to claim it is "saving" us.
Perhaps our movements would have unleashed the violence the separatists have in the Donetsk triangle had we a similar neighbour. There certainly was a violent element in the Quebec separatist movement in the 1960's. Fortunately, our neighbour didn't fund them or aid them in any way, and our prime minister of the day, at the behest of the mayor of Montreal and the premier of Quebec, declared the War Measures Act, which suspended most civil rights for anyone on the state's radar. Our powerful neighbour did not interfere in our domestic turmoil. So, the violence associated with Quebec's separatist movement was short lived.
Separation can only be achieved when the majority of the inhabitants living on the lands at issue desire separation. That is not the case in Donetsk, no matter what the oligarchs or others with their own agendas, who are funding the criminals claiming to be "separatists", wish.
Wouldn't Canada also have to approve such a measure? In the US, no state can simply vote (even with 90% approval) their way to independence without the approval of the Federal government (except Texas).
This is also the case in Ukraine isn't it? Donetsk can't simply vote to become separate under the Ukrainian constitution I thought. So even a majority vote would not make it so. That is my understanding anyway.
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Westcoast, time for you to be honest, yes, honest, you know that while I got the decimal point wrong it does not change the point in the slightest. Or, truth be told you'd know if you actually had the knowledge and training that you claim.
Doesn't change the point in the slightest? You said Ukraine was exporting 900 times more of railroad 'vehicles and trams' to Russia than to the EU when in fact it was only about 9 times more. That is a major error. Then you compounded that error by saying Ukraine exports 600 times more of 'nuclear reactors, boilers etc' to Russia than to the EU when in reality it was only 6 times as much. 900 vs 9 and 600 vs 6 those are rather large errors.
Next, Westcoast, if you were what you claim to have been before you were fired/made redundant /downsized/deemed surplus
Still a better career choice than someone who produces and sends out spam for fake 'Rolexes' & 'Viagra'.
know about the difference to an economy made by exporting manufactures and processed goods rather than raw materials. Given that you are trying to suggest otherwise tells me, and anyone else who knows anything about business and the basic economics related to the topic, that you have little or no real knowledge of that in which you claim expertise.
If you were what you have claimed then you'd know of the benefits of adding value to raw materials and why exporting processed goods (manufactures) is better for the economy than selling raw materials or partially processed goods. That the further up the value chain a business, or economy, works the better off that business or economy tends to be.
Andrew if you understood far more about economics and had some knowledge of how the former satellites and occupied members of the USSR altered their entire economies then you'd understand that's exactly how countries like Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic etc succeeded economically when they joined the EU. As I said in my earlier post a simplistic piece of economic journalism and you couldn't even understand it. Stick to rants about the CIA.
When you seized with glee upon my numeric error you showed everybody reading your words the limits of your knowledge - you are capable of driving a calculator, no more. You just showed us your level of expertise - you were a bank teller who might have received loan applications for others to deal with.
Andrew you've got to learn to be more colourful with your insults. I was a banker I've been insulted far worse than anything you can say here.
Have you thought about expanding your line of spam to include fake designer goods. Fake designer handbags are a big industry. Fake sunglasses too. Hope this helps your spam production.
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If you want to buy something off them, they will miraculously speak any language you want. :chuckle:
Funny how that works isn't it?
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
Not according to the Kremlin (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0321/Moscow-rattles-Estonia-with-talk-of-concern-for-its-Russian-population).
That article does not suggest what you said.
The issue that the article touches on is that using language, Estonia tries (without much success) to marginalise Russian speakers and force them to learn Estonian, which many have no need or desire to do. What they do is small-minded but it doesn't really affect so many people. The reality is that what you said is simply wrong, Estonia isn't "having problems" with the Russian speakers, who outnumber Estonian speakers in many places anyway. Most of the time the two groups coexist well enough; no different to English and Welsh speakers in Wales.
It is a small country in close proximity to many other tongues. The Estonians can be a tad isolationist in regards to their language, but as so few people speak it natively, it is mostly a pipe dream. You can do almost anything you want in Estonia in Russian, Finnish or English, and probably Swedish too. If you want to buy something off them, they will miraculously speak any language you want. :chuckle:
You seem to disagree with the official Russian position? Strange.
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Quebec's been working on it for more than fifty years. There are separatist movements in my province, and in Westy's. We see how successful they have all been. The reason? In Quebec, a majority of Quebecers have never voted "oui". In Alberta and BC, the movements are fringe. Of course, in none of Canada's separatist movements has the nation had to cope with a much bigger and more powerful neighbour having its secret service meet with hired "separatists" to instruct them in subversive tactics, fund them, have its citizens enter our territory with arms, rocket launchers, anti aircraft missiles, etc., and unleash its government controlled media propaganda machine on us, all while having the chutzpah to claim it is "saving" us.
Perhaps our movements would have unleashed the violence the separatists have in the Donetsk triangle had we a similar neighbour. There certainly was a violent element in the Quebec separatist movement in the 1960's. Fortunately, our neighbour didn't fund them or aid them in any way, and our prime minister of the day, at the behest of the mayor of Montreal and the premier of Quebec, declared the War Measures Act, which suspended most civil rights for anyone on the state's radar. Our powerful neighbour did not interfere in our domestic turmoil. So, the violence associated with Quebec's separatist movement was short lived.
Separation can only be achieved when the majority of the inhabitants living on the lands at issue desire separation. That is not the case in Donetsk, no matter what the oligarchs or others with their own agendas, who are funding the criminals claiming to be "separatists", wish.
Wouldn't Canada also have to approve such a measure? In the US, no state can simply vote (even with 90% approval) their way to independence without the approval of the Federal government (except Texas).
This is also the case in Ukraine isn't it? Donetsk can't simply vote to become separate under the Ukrainian constitution I thought. So even a majority vote would not make it so. That is my understanding anyway.
The laws surrounding the vote for Quebec independence are murky. According to English language media reports separatist Quebec governments have stated all they need is a vote of 50% + 1 to start the process of leaving Canada. The Canadian government has introduced legislation on how a province can 'officially' leave Canada however it is unclear how much of that legislation Quebec is willing to abide by.
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Halo would the average Ukrainian in the Donetsk region have access to guns to fight the pro Russian forces?
No. Most of the weapons were stolen from government facilities. Farmers have weapons. When the separatists tried to take over a village where all the farmers were armed, they were met with resistance, and retreated.
Andrew is correct in his assertion those in the Donetsk triangle are under threat, but he forgot to add it is from separatists. There was no deathly conflict before that time.
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Interesting to see that the General Prosecutor, Oleh Makhnitskyy from Svoboda, has resigned and has been replaced by Vitaliy Yarema, the former head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I'm sure that some certain will suggest that since he served under Yushchenko this is part of some Western conspiracy, however I see it as a positive move removing a Svoboda member from a prominent and important position.
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27919047
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On Quebec separation - there was no consensus on what was required to separate. The separatists stated 50% plus one vote would be enough after the last referendum. They came close, mostly because they fudged the question, and told Quebecers they would continue to get all the benefits of Canada (the most significant being a $7.8 billion transfer payment from the federal government). After that referendum, the then Liberal government of Jean Chrétien drafted the Clarity Act, which proposed what would be required. The Act has been interpreted by the Supreme Court, so it is valid legislation. Quebec separatists, as Westy points out, reject it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act
I suspect the heydey of Quebec separatism has passed. I realized this almost two decades ago, when we stayed with my sister and her husband at their downtown Toronto condo. Walking the business districts, we heard as much French as English. Young Quebecers didn't have the opportunities at home they did in Toronto.
Montreal is a beautiful city, but it is looking rundown. The infrastructure is in need of repair. Quebecers, like all people, are pragmatic. They know that the benefits of Canadian citizenship outweigh the benefits of sovereignty.
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Interesting to see that the General Prosecutor, Oleh Makhnitskyy from Svoboda, has resigned and has been replaced by Vitaliy Yarema, the former head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I'm sure that some certain will suggest that since he served under Yushchenko this is part of some Western conspiracy, however I see it as a positive move removing a Svoboda member from a prominent and important position.
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27919047
Poroshenko has the right to appoint his own cabinet. I suspect there will be more changes as things stabilize.
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
Not according to the Kremlin (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0321/Moscow-rattles-Estonia-with-talk-of-concern-for-its-Russian-population).
:chuckle: The same Kremlin that thought Russian speakers in Crimea needed protection?
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Take a look at Estonia. Estonia is a member of the EU and is having problems with its Russian speaking minority.
Wrong on many levels.
Not according to the Kremlin (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0321/Moscow-rattles-Estonia-with-talk-of-concern-for-its-Russian-population).
That article does not suggest what you said.
The issue that the article touches on is that using language, Estonia tries (without much success) to marginalise Russian speakers and force them to learn Estonian, which many have no need or desire to do. What they do is small-minded but it doesn't really affect so many people. The reality is that what you said is simply wrong, Estonia isn't "having problems" with the Russian speakers, who outnumber Estonian speakers in many places anyway. Most of the time the two groups coexist well enough; no different to English and Welsh speakers in Wales.
It is a small country in close proximity to many other tongues. The Estonians can be a tad isolationist in regards to their language, but as so few people speak it natively, it is mostly a pipe dream. You can do almost anything you want in Estonia in Russian, Finnish or English, and probably Swedish too. If you want to buy something off them, they will miraculously speak any language you want. :chuckle:
You seem to disagree with the official Russian position? Strange.
You didn't quote the "official" Russian position, so I cant comment.
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If you want to buy something off them, they will miraculously speak any language you want. :chuckle:
Funny how that works isn't it?
Same language the world over when you mention money. :chuckle:
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Looks like Ukraine has ramped up weapon and missile systems production with new clients in mind. New anti tank weapons systems were unveiled at the Eurosatory expo.
http://www.janes.com/article/39771/sarmat-hits-the-target-es14e5 (http://www.janes.com/article/39771/sarmat-hits-the-target-es14e5)
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Now they need to put them to use on the russian tanks moving into Ukraine now.
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Looks like Ukraine is going to sign the association agreement with the EU. Of course Russia's pissed about it. Why would any country want to associate with the EU when they can bond with Mother Russia and Putin? Trade and possibly live and work in Moscow or a choice of Paris, London, Rome etc, doesn't take much to see why Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova want to associate with the EU rather than Russia.
Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia are facing intense pressure ahead of the deal’s signing, including threats of export bans and tightened immigration rules, as well as the specter of strengthened separatist movements. But the warnings may be backfiring, with leaders in all three countries saying Moscow’s ominous tone demonstrates more than ever why they need to pick a different path.
Moscow is pulling out the really big guns when it comes to Ukraine. Sergei Glazyev, enior adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said Petro Poroshenko was a "Nazi" and his endorsement of the deal was "illegitimate". Mr Poroshenko is expected to sign the full association agreement at the EU summit in Brussels later.
Maybe Russia will be looking for an association agreement with the EU once Putin's out of office?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28049565
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-pressures-moldova-as-date-for-signing-of-eu-deal/2014/06/25/0d9ed50f-42d3-47db-90f6-3073c03746b1_story.html
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Looks like Ukraine is going to sign the association agreement with the EU. Of course Russia's pissed about it. Why would any country want to associate with the EU when they can bond with Mother Russia and Putin? Trade and possibly live and work in Moscow or a choice of Paris, London, Rome etc, doesn't take much to see why Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova want to associate with the EU rather than Russia.
Name one country that was a part of the FSU and that still aligns with 'Mother Russia"
1 That is rich or is near western levels.
NONE
Yet Russia wants to keep them near and in the gutter.
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Looks like Ukraine is going to sign the association agreement with the EU. Of course Russia's pissed about it. Why would any country want to associate with the EU when they can bond with Mother Russia and Putin? Trade and possibly live and work in Moscow or a choice of Paris, London, Rome etc, doesn't take much to see why Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova want to associate with the EU rather than Russia.
Name one country that was a part of the FSU and that still aligns with 'Mother Russia"
1 That is rich or is near western levels.
NONE
Yet Russia wants to keep them near and in the gutter.
if the only other countries in the trade union with Russia are Belarus and Kazakhstan that's not much of a trade union. Ukraine with its large population would have been an ideal partner in the trade union but obviously Ukraine preferred the EU. And why wouldn't they? All the former USSR satellites are far better off financially with the EU.
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if the only other countries in the trade union with Russia are Belarus and Kazakhstan that's not much of a trade union.
Then they can continue to play with themselves. :laugh:
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All the former USSR satellites are far better off financially with the EU.
It's only a matter of time before the EU tires of supporting gypsies, tramps and thieves.
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All the former USSR satellites are far better off financially with the EU.
It's only a matter of time before the EU tires of supporting gypsies, tramps and thieves.
Now Jean-Claude Juncker is president of the EU (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2671985/Angry-Cameron-warns-European-leaders-consequences-Cognac-breakfast-Brussels-fixer-Jean-Claude-Juncker-given-EUs-job.html), they will be seeking to expand and will drop the bar of entry and keep expanding. They will be shouting to have Ukraine and Turkey in now.
At least it should speed up our referendum (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28060755) to get out and stop paying £53m a day into this scheme.
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All the former USSR satellites are far better off financially with the EU.
It's only a matter of time before the EU tires of supporting gypsies, tramps and thieves.
To be fair, I saw far more gypsies, tramps and thieves in Rome than I did in Ukraine. Come to think of it, I didn't see any of the 3 while in Ukraine (3 different cities) and I spent much more time there.
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Looks like Ukraine is going to sign the association agreement with the EU. Of course Russia's pissed about it. Why would any country want to associate with the EU when they can bond with Mother Russia and Putin? Trade and possibly live and work in Moscow or a choice of Paris, London, Rome etc, doesn't take much to see why Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova want to associate with the EU rather than Russia.
Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia are facing intense pressure ahead of the deal’s signing, including threats of export bans and tightened immigration rules, as well as the specter of strengthened separatist movements. But the warnings may be backfiring, with leaders in all three countries saying Moscow’s ominous tone demonstrates more than ever why they need to pick a different path.
Moscow is pulling out the really big guns when it comes to Ukraine. Sergei Glazyev, enior adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said Petro Poroshenko was a "Nazi" and his endorsement of the deal was "illegitimate". Mr Poroshenko is expected to sign the full association agreement at the EU summit in Brussels later.
Maybe Russia will be looking for an association agreement with the EU once Putin's out of office?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28049565
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-pressures-moldova-as-date-for-signing-of-eu-deal/2014/06/25/0d9ed50f-42d3-47db-90f6-3073c03746b1_story.html
I can't speak to trade or business but I can honestly say that I would visit St. Petersburg or Moscow long before I would ever set foot in Paris again.
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The one sided ceasefire has been extended until Monday 30 June at 10 PM.
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All the former USSR satellites are far better off financially with the EU.
It's only a matter of time before the EU tires of supporting gypsies, tramps and thieves.
To be fair, I saw far more gypsies, tramps and thieves in Rome than I did in Ukraine. Come to think of it, I didn't see any of the 3 while in Ukraine (3 different cities) and I spent much more time there.
I've seen them in Rome every time I've been there going back at least 20 years. They're also in Paris although I'm told the authorities there are more active in keeping them out of the tourist areas. I've been told by people who visit Rome more frequently that the Roma (gypsies) have various settlements throughout Italy because of its close proximity to Romania and Bulgaria. Don't know how true it is.
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Looks like Ukraine is going to sign the association agreement with the EU. Of course Russia's pissed about it. Why would any country want to associate with the EU when they can bond with Mother Russia and Putin? Trade and possibly live and work in Moscow or a choice of Paris, London, Rome etc, doesn't take much to see why Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova want to associate with the EU rather than Russia.
Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia are facing intense pressure ahead of the deal’s signing, including threats of export bans and tightened immigration rules, as well as the specter of strengthened separatist movements. But the warnings may be backfiring, with leaders in all three countries saying Moscow’s ominous tone demonstrates more than ever why they need to pick a different path.
Moscow is pulling out the really big guns when it comes to Ukraine. Sergei Glazyev, enior adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said Petro Poroshenko was a "Nazi" and his endorsement of the deal was "illegitimate". Mr Poroshenko is expected to sign the full association agreement at the EU summit in Brussels later.
Maybe Russia will be looking for an association agreement with the EU once Putin's out of office?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28049565
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-pressures-moldova-as-date-for-signing-of-eu-deal/2014/06/25/0d9ed50f-42d3-47db-90f6-3073c03746b1_story.html
I can't speak to trade or business but I can honestly say that I would visit St. Petersburg or Moscow long before I would ever set foot in Paris again.
Of course, but you're replying to a буффон who has never been to Russia, and was surprised we have cable TV here (:). But don't worry, чувак has Google, so he's an expert on the relationship dynamics between countries and what these 2 Russian cities are like :chuckle:.
Having been able to travel around Europe much easier obviously, I can safely say that it takes about 2-3 days before I to want to return to Moscow after being in any cookie cutter European city. Although some are nice, for me, most are just way too boring beyond a few days.
I also get a kick out of the people on this board who think that Ukrainians, Moldovans, Georgians or any other people from the former SU are all of a sudden (or any time in the future) going to somehow have meaningful jobs in Europe just because this agreement has been signed. How utterly naïve.
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I also get a kick out of the people on this board who think that Ukrainians, Moldovans, Georgians or any other people from the former SU are all of a sudden (or anywhere in the future) going to somehow have meaningful jobs in Europe just because this agreement has been signed. How utterly naïve.
Which members think this?
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Reread the whole post I replied to and if you can't figure it out, we can't have a meaningful discussion, sorry.
I'm positive there are others who think the same if you have read any of their previous posts on the subject.
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Reread the whole post I replied to and if you can't figure it out, we can't have a meaningful discussion, sorry.
I'm positive there are others who think the same if you have read any of their previous posts on the subject.
Ah, I see. One member suggested it as a possibility, which it is. BTW, I know several Georgians who had meaningful jobs in the EU and chose to return to Georgia. Its not a fantasy, its already happening.
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Most won't find meaningful jobs, and the one's that do, can do it as things stand right now, or could before this or any other agreement was/is signed.
IOW this agreement will not change things, which is my point.
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Danchik, it is obvious that several posters here have no idea what these association agreements actually mean. They are under the impression that it is some form of EU membership and that the signature of these agreements gives the citizens of these countries similar benefits to those of EU members.
Without having the correct knowledge it is impossible for them to understand or discuss what is happening.
Oddly enough this is exactly analogous to what happened to Yanukovych in late 2013. Assumptions were made, wishful thinking (aided and abetted by the EU) led to poor decisions.
Here's a thing though, while the association agreement is very, very bad for Ukraine, the situation in respect of Moldova is quite different. At least for as long as Moldova is able to retain an economic relationship with Russia in a similar vein to that which is now enjoyed.
Sadly for Moldova though, the Ukrainian situation may force Russia to act in ways that are not comfortable for Moldova. For example, both Ukraine and Moldova are significantly dependent upon Russia for remittances from guest workers in Russia. In a nice, playful, happy world that could continue and that had been Moscow's stated policy. However, because of the disruption from Ukraine it is likely that guest workers from Ukraine will be less welcome and, for the sake of 'fairness' and ease of administration, Moldova would be treated the same way. The loss of remittances would be a significant drag upon the economy and the return of the workers a drain upon social resources within these countries.
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Name one country that was a part of the FSU and that still aligns with 'Mother Russia"
1 That is rich or is near western levels.
NONE
Mike, having removed the anti-Russian line, answer your own question. There is only Estonia.
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http://www.abcfoxmontana.com/story/25885571/ukraine-eu-sign-historic-trade-and-economic-pact
"Historic events are unavoidable" (Poroshenko).
With a brilliant man like this at the helm, Ukraine cannot help but flourish. (:)
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All the former USSR satellites are far better off financially with the EU.
It's only a matter of time before the EU tires of supporting gypsies, tramps and thieves.
To be fair, I saw far more gypsies, tramps and thieves in Rome than I did in Ukraine. Come to think of it, I didn't see any of the 3 while in Ukraine (3 different cities) and I spent much more time there.
It was an obscure reference to one of Cher's songs.
"But every night all the men [of the E.U.] would come around. And lay their money down [to keep the buggers afloat]."
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Any interesting statement was said by a friend of mine about the situation in East Ukraine. Will East Ukraine become the new Palistine of Europe? Where fighting never stops.
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I don't think it will last long. The US will most likley station defense systems in Ukraine in exchange for the loans. This has already been discussed and I am sure a deal was done behind the scenes.
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I don't think it will last long. The US will most likley station defense systems in Ukraine in exchange for the loans. This has already been discussed and I am sure a deal was done behind the scenes.
I dont think it will last long, but for different reasons. The regions will break away I think, pretend to be independent for a bit, then join the RF.
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Why would a region in which over half the populace is ethnically Ukrainian, and in the past, has expressed no desire to join Russia, do so? Because a handful of thugs believe it is desirable?
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Having been able to travel around Europe much easier obviously, I can safely say that it takes about 2-3 days before I to want to return to Moscow after being in any cookie cutter European city. Although some are nice, for me, most are just way too boring beyond a few days.
I loved Paris, don't find it cookie cutter, and would return there in a heartbeat. Moscow, not so much.
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Name one country that was a part of the FSU and that still aligns with 'Mother Russia"
1 That is rich or is near western levels.
NONE
Mike, having removed the anti-Russian line, answer your own question. There is only Estonia.
Your perception is off based Manny. Referring to "Mother Russia" is hardly anti-Russian.
Double check and recalibrate your 'spidey senses'.
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http://www.abcfoxmontana.com/story/25885571/ukraine-eu-sign-historic-trade-and-economic-pact
"Historic events are unavoidable" (Poroshenko).
With a brilliant man like this at the helm, Ukraine cannot help but flourish. (:)
Say what you will about him, he is not a stupid man.
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Here is Poroshenko's speech.
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Why would a region in which over half the populace is ethnically Ukrainian, and in the past, has expressed no desire to join Russia, do so? Because a handful of thugs believe it is desirable?
I think this is really going to come down to how much control the Ukrainian federal government can regain in places like Donetsk and Lugansk. If the pro Russian forces can get enough troops into the areas, keep the Ukrainian military out of the area and retain control, the wishes of the average citizen in the area are worthless. The average unarmed civilian certainly can't fight AK47s, RPGs and tanks.
I've fired AK47s at gun ranges in the US and its a devastatingly effective weapon. No unarmed person is going to challenge this type of firepower. Civilians will have a choice, hopefully, either flee to western Ukraine or obey the wishes of the pro Russian forces. Throw in a heavy dose of pro Russia propaganda and the pro Russians might succeed in making the region truly independent, ready to be annexed by Russia sometime in the future.
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Great piece by Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is someone who understands Ukraine.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/06/27/confronting-russian-chauvinism/
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Here is Poroshenko's speech.
His English is good, no problem understanding him. Let's hope he can reform Ukraine and get it into the EU.
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Great piece by Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is someone who understands Ukraine.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/06/27/confronting-russian-chauvinism/
Good analysis.
The part that astounds me by the apologists for Russian aggression in UA is that they cannot even see that it is all ultimately detrimental to Russia in the long run. Crimea and Donetsk are a very poor return for turning your closest and largest neighbour (culturally, historically, linguistically etc) into an enemy. Other than far western Ukraine, UA was largely Russophone and a part of some greater Russian cultural sphere and in parts actually Russophile.
That us all changing now, rapidly. Putin's incompetence in this UA debacle is so obvious and it boggles the mind that people can actually sing his praises. He might need to be removed by forces inside Russia if the UA situation spirals out of control.
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Great piece by Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is someone who understands Ukraine.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/06/27/confronting-russian-chauvinism/
I don't agree with much of the article, but it was an interesting read. One line stood out that made me laugh though.........
the American tradition of no foreign entanglements
:ROFL:
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Manny, America does have some isolationist political forces and they have been influential or even held sway at times in their history. The USA was dragged into WWII only by Pearl Harbour.
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True, Isthmus, although Roosevelt wanted the US involvement in WWII before Pearl Harbour.
Brzezinski is referring to the period before the Cold War, when America was generally isolationist. It did send troops to expand its borders, and it did send ships, and troops, to retaliate against the murder of Americans abroad but it did not invade foreign countries.
As for the article, nothing in it is inaccurate. I noted the chauvinism in Russian papers some time ago. It is different from a sense of nationalism.
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Here is Poroshenko's speech.
The man is in a world of his own talking about financial integration with the EU and Crimea still being part of Ukraine. He comes across as a total sell out. I saw the grinning unelected Van Rompuy in the background there. (:)
The sooner the UK is out of the EU the better. We cant afford yet another lame duck country and even more mass immigration from eastern Europe. Wifey and I went for a meal tonight and were fighting off Romanian beggars outside the restaurant. Romania has less than half the population of Ukraine. Ukraine in the EU would be a disaster. :duh:
The UK pays £53m ($90 million) a day into the EU. That will increase, and wealth and resources will be diluted across the rest of Europe if yet another 40m people join.
Its no coincidence that Norway and Switzerland do very nicely trading with the EU but not being full members.
Nobody wishes Ukraine ill, but its improvement should not be funded by twenty odd neighbouring countries. Using that logic, we will shortly be welcoming Zimbabwe into the EU.
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Sadly what Ukraine has been signed up for is rape. All the work done to keep domestic assets under local ownership is now erased and because of the way in which the agreement stages market openness for each side those assets are going to be stripped.
What has happened in Ukraine will, over the coming years, come to be seen as evil.
A sad day for Ukraine.
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Here is Poroshenko's speech.
The man is in a world of his own talking about financial integration with the EU and Crimea still being part of Ukraine. He comes across as a total sell out. I saw the grinning unelected Van Rompuy in the background there. (:)
The sooner the UK is out of the EU the better. We cant afford yet another lame duck country and even more mass immigration from eastern Europe. Wifey and I went for a meal tonight and were fighting off Romanian beggars outside the restaurant. Romania has less than half the population of Ukraine. Ukraine in the EU would be a disaster. :duh:
The UK pays £53m ($90 million) a day into the EU. That will increase, and wealth and resources will be diluted across the rest of Europe if yet another 40m people join.
Its no coincidence that Norway and Switzerland do very nicely trading with the EU but not being full members.
Nobody wishes Ukraine ill, but its improvement should not be funded by twenty odd neighbouring countries. Using that logic, we will shortly be welcoming Zimbabwe into the EU.
I doubt quite highly that even were Ukraine admitted to the EU, you would be inundated with Ukrainian beggars. How many Polish beggars are on UK streets? Some Roma clans are traditionally beggars, some, petty thieves, others, musicians, and yet others, workers in traditionally artisan industries (finishing carpenters, metal workers, etc.).
Any visionary politician would speak of greater union with the outside world, and financial integration is but one aspect. Canada is financially integrated with the United States. That has made our country more prosperous.
Sadly what Ukraine has been signed up for is rape. All the work done to keep domestic assets under local ownership is now erased and because of the way in which the agreement stages market openness for each side those assets are going to be stripped.
What has happened in Ukraine will, over the coming years, come to be seen as evil.
A sad day for Ukraine
How is keeping Ukrainian assets in the hands of a few oligarchs not rape already? The newest scandal is the theft of $250 million of state revenues for green projects. The theft, through phony shell companies, started under Tymoshenko, but the largest thefts were by the Yanukovych clan, including one of his sons. The government is still trying to determine the identities of those behind a number of other shelf companies.
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Manny, are you aware that roughly 50% of the UK's trade is with fellow EU member States?
Are you also aware that both Switzerland and Norway also pay into Brussell's coffers as well (despite not being full EU members). They do that in order to access the European Common Market because it is in their own interest to do this, just like it is in the UK's economic (self) interest as well.
Fringe political forces can bleat nonsense as much as they want (because they know they will actually ever be in power and have responsibility), those that can hold power in the UK (all the major political parties) and more importantly, British big business all know too well that the UK is totally integrated into the European Common Market and there are no other economic options for the UK.
Issues of reforming the EU is another (quite valid) debate but leaving the EU would be an economic disaster for the UK. Government leaders and the captains of industry all know this.
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More DUBs begging to get invaded!
http://rt.com/news/169160-ukraine-mp-putin-kill/
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Manny, are you aware that roughly 50% of the UK's trade is with fellow EU member States?
Yes, and that doesn't need to change. We dont need to be in their club to do business with them.
Are you also aware that both Switzerland and Norway also pay into Brussell's coffers as well (despite not being full EU members). They do that in order to access the European Common Market because it is in their own interest to do this, just like it is in the UK's economic (self) interest as well.
Yes I know that, but they don't pay £53m a day as we do.
Fringe political forces can bleat nonsense as much as they want (because they know they will actually ever be in power and have responsibility), those that can hold power in the UK (all the major political parties)
Well, UKIP just won the European elections by a landslide.
there are no other economic options for the UK.
Wrong. We would be free to make our own deals with the US, China, India, and not be tied to EU trade agreements.
leaving the EU would be an economic disaster for the UK
Norway and Switzerland have no disaster. In fact, they are two of the nicest places to live in Europe.
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More DUBs begging to get invaded!
http://rt.com/news/169160-ukraine-mp-putin-kill/
The article is sensationalistic and bit misleading, if you listen to the whole programme.
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Sadly what Ukraine has been signed up for is rape. All the work done to keep domestic assets under local ownership is now erased and because of the way in which the agreement stages market openness for each side those assets are going to be stripped.
What has happened in Ukraine will, over the coming years, come to be seen as evil.
A sad day for Ukraine.
Just like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania and Slovenia. I wonder why they all choose the EU over Russia?
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Sadly what Ukraine has been signed up for is rape. All the work done to keep domestic assets under local ownership is now erased and because of the way in which the agreement stages market openness for each side those assets are going to be stripped.
What has happened in Ukraine will, over the coming years, come to be seen as evil.
A sad day for Ukraine.
Just like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania and Slovenia. I wonder why they all choose the EU over Russia?
No westcoast. When I referred to people not knowing what they are talking about, you were one of those people. Go away and get back to us with your understanding of what makes, those countries similar each other but different to Ukraine because there is one very, very important difference. If you want to get an even better idea you might want to look at what is different about Ukraine compared to Moldova and Georgia. Don't worry, it is not hard, we have covered this stuff on this very forum.
In addition the disadvantages that Ukraine now faces are also, to a greater or lesser degree common to most recent EU members, again, we have discussed this on this forum and even why the effect is much less for those countries than Ukraine.
Westcoast we know that you are a bear with very little brain, but you have enough to be able to not need to embarrass yourself by displaying your fundamental lack of knowledge. You can do better.
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Sadly what Ukraine has been signed up for is rape. All the work done to keep domestic assets under local ownership is now erased and because of the way in which the agreement stages market openness for each side those assets are going to be stripped.
What has happened in Ukraine will, over the coming years, come to be seen as evil.
A sad day for Ukraine.
Just like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania and Slovenia. I wonder why they all choose the EU over Russia?
No westcoast. When I referred to people not knowing what they are talking about, you were one of those people. Go away and get back to us with your understanding of what makes, those countries similar each other but different to Ukraine because there is one very, very important difference. If you want to get an even better idea you might want to look at what is different about Ukraine compared to Moldova and Georgia. Don't worry, it is not hard, we have covered this stuff on this very forum.
In addition the disadvantages that Ukraine now faces are also, to a greater or lesser degree common to most recent EU members, again, we have discussed this on this forum and even why the effect is much less for those countries than Ukraine.
Westcoast we know that you are a bear with very little brain, but you have enough to be able to not need to embarrass yourself by displaying your fundamental lack of knowledge. You can do better.
Andrew since this threads about Ukraine began you've been proven wrong so many times. Remember how I had to correct you on the simple fact that Odessa isn't in Crimea? (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20784.msg360489;highlight=odessa+crimea#msg360489)
Your recent research on the T-64 BV tank that proved to be so abysmally wrong, it was embarrassing for you. Now's the time to rest and let your mind relax. Stick to the simpler posts that are better suited to someone who is constantly wrong in his assumptions.
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I had to correct you on the simple fact that Odessa isn't in Crimea.
He didn't write that Odessa was in Crimea.
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Westcoast, I have never said that Odessa was in Crimea. Why do you make this stuff up? It just makes more certain that others will understand you to be dishonest.
I do not recall seeing anything that I wrote about the tanks in Ukraine being incorrect, but I am not, unlike some, any kind of armchair general, just a bloke who can read. It is however now understood that the claims being made by the US and Ukraine were untrue, as I pointed out with factual evidence at the time.
So, westcoast, did you yet come to understand why Ukraine is different to all the recent entrants to the EU? Did you bother to check your (mis)understanding?
Westcoast, I have no problems in having a discussion with people. I don't even mind being something of a teacher, by being so I learn as well. ;) However when you continually display a lack of even the most basic underlying facts, such as which countries are members of the EU and you can not even be bothered to update your lack of knowledge in this then, frankly, I lack the interest to deal with you.
When you conjoin your laziness with your dishonesty then it is not worth bothering with you except to point out those shortcomings.
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It would seem Kiev has been shelling more civilians in the east: http://rt.com/news/170104-ukraine-lugansk-shelling-airstrike/
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Where are RT's photos of the 27 young Ukrainian soldiers killed, with Russian weapons, during the one sided ceasefire?
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Where are RT's photos of the 27 young Ukrainian soldiers killed, with Russian weapons, during the one sided ceasefire?
Is the link I posted faulty? Or did you just change the subject?
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I don't know if the link is accurate. Ukraine says its forces were not in the area.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28126433
However, my point is, you can't clap with one hand.
Had Russia not aided terrorists, or their supporters, there would have been no Kondrashivka.
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Halo, if I prevented somebody from raping you would I have been doing a bad thing?
No. You'd be grateful for the help. No matter from where it came. Those around you would be happy you were OK.
Truth is though that the Russians have been doing almost nothing. If it were otherwise then they'd not, today, have offered to the Junta the possibility to have Ukrainian border officials manning the Russian side border posts. It would make nonsense to do so.
Right now it seems that another ceasefire is on the cards at the instigation of Russia but with no conditions applying to either side in respect of surrender as was the case previously.
Hopefully the US will allow Poroshenko to agree with the Deal his foreign minister agree to in Berlin (IIRC) and on this occasion, unlike the last time, the Junta's leadership will not openly defy their president and say that they were not bound by any such ceasefire and that actions would continue.
Remember that so far events have proven to be as I suggested they would be, that Russia has no intent or wish to annex the eastern oblasti and that the Ukrainian army and helpers wouldn't be able to prevail. At some point things become self evidently what they are.
By the way, apart from ongoing 'outings' in media, the points made previously about outside helpers acting for the Junta, on this forum, still stand. Go do the reading. Nothing changed except the weight. Today even the rabid British press have started writing in a manner that demonstrates an acceptance of this reality. The presence is treated as an accepted truth, not, as previously a great surprise and something very unlikely.
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No one was being raped. No one was being forced to speak Ukrainian, as the proposed language law (which merely reintroduced an old law) was the alleged impetus for the terrorists.
While I believe oligarchs are behind most of this, there is independent, verifiable evidence, that Russia aided the terrorists as well. Russia's offer on the borders comes because of the threat of EU sanctions. It is not due to the Russian government's benevolence.
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I don't know if the link is accurate. Ukraine says its forces were not in the area.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28126433
However, Ukrainian security forces in the region were quoted by Interfax news agency as saying the rebels had attacked the village themselves, at around 04:00 (01:00 GMT), causing deaths and damage.
Doesn't that sound mildly ridiculous to you? When residents reported their houses were attacked from the air? Why would the rebels attack their own people?
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Why would terrorists force civilians to open their homes to them? Why would terrorists summarily execute mayors? Why did civilians in the rural villages surrounding Lugansk meet the terrorists with weapons, telling them to get lost, they didn't want them near their children, their families, or their crops? Why did women in Kramtorsk approach a terrorist mini van on the street and tell them they were sick of their terror, and in particular, their cowardice in hiding behind civilians? Why would terrorists beat local priests who have the audacity to pray for peace? Or threaten the lives of those who refuse to kowtow to their demands?
You assume the terrorists have the broad support of the local populace. That's not accurate.
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The latest poll. Note, even in the East, the actions of the terrorists are having a negative effect on views of Russia. These views did not exist previously.
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/news.php?news_id=477
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Andrew, you write this crap, thats bad enough, trying to write as if its all real.
Whats scary is you actually believe, delusional or what.
Manny regardless of what you write or link, you are and have been one sided in all of this.
The reality of where the support for the pro Russian activists, of food weapons and fighters
is coming from is not a secret. Putin refused to do anything to stop the flow across borders,
which adds to the problems. At least try and be a little objective.
read the conditions of last weeks peace agreement, which at least in public, Putin agreed with.
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The latest poll. Note, even in the East, the actions of the terrorists are having a negative effect on views of Russia. These views did not exist previously.
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/news.php?news_id=477
Here in Poltava, the current hatred of Russia is much stronger than I anticipated. If I bring up Russia in conversation, there is an almost immediate negative reaction.
If I compare that to how it was last summer when I was here, the difference is night and day.
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My Wife was born in Russia, her and many of her friends feel the same.
We were going to Russia next year on holiday, now she wants no part of Russia.
Seems a growing feeling in Ukraine.
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Russia's reaction to renewed hostilities:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/europe/russia-demands-new-cease-fire-in-ukraine.html?ref=world
So Putin has determined he is the "saviour" of "Russian" people, even if they are not ethnically Russian. Of course he must make such a distinction to rationalize a land grab. The self identified ethnically Russian populations of the Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts, as at the last census, stood at 39%.
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Why would terrorists force civilians to open their homes to them? Why would terrorists summarily execute mayors? Why did civilians in the rural villages surrounding Lugansk meet the terrorists with weapons, telling them to get lost, they didn't want them near their children, their families, or their crops? Why did women in Kramtorsk approach a terrorist mini van on the street and tell them they were sick of their terror, and in particular, their cowardice in hiding behind civilians? Why would terrorists beat local priests who have the audacity to pray for peace? Or threaten the lives of those who refuse to kowtow to their demands?
You assume the terrorists have the broad support of the local populace. That's not accurate.
I haven't read any of that.
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Russia's reaction to renewed hostilities:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/europe/russia-demands-new-cease-fire-in-ukraine.html?ref=world
So Putin has determined he is the "saviour" of "Russian" people, even if they are not ethnically Russian. Of course he must make such a distinction to rationalize a land grab. The self identified ethnically Russian populations of the Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts, as at the last census, stood at 39%.
I was surprised to see that in the American media.
What is this 'land grab' you speak of? You still imagine that Russia actually wants this region as part of Russia?
The point of the link I posted, and as backed up by your NYT piece, is the Junta is still killing its own people, including children, as the west looks on quietly.
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Another article, quite different than the last few posted.
Seem's Putin could have many issues, with this.
Those calling it a Junta, have been labeled Rebels :)
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/2957958-putin-under-pressure-fighting-rages-ukraine.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
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Why would terrorists force civilians to open their homes to them? Why would terrorists summarily execute mayors? Why did civilians in the rural villages surrounding Lugansk meet the terrorists with weapons, telling them to get lost, they didn't want them near their children, their families, or their crops? Why did women in Kramtorsk approach a terrorist mini van on the street and tell them they were sick of their terror, and in particular, their cowardice in hiding behind civilians? Why would terrorists beat local priests who have the audacity to pray for peace? Or threaten the lives of those who refuse to kowtow to their demands?
You assume the terrorists have the broad support of the local populace. That's not accurate.
I haven't read any of that.
You'll have to expand the scope of your reading beyond Russia Today.
I don't report on anything I've read in Ukrainian newspapers anymore, as most of them have become as biased as RT.
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The point of the link I posted, and as backed up by your NYT piece, is the Junta is still killing its own people, including children, as the west looks on quietly.
I might be incorrect here but I was under the assumption that the rebels were causing a large number of civilian deaths with their misplaced mortar attacks?
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Russia's reaction to renewed hostilities:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/europe/russia-demands-new-cease-fire-in-ukraine.html?ref=world
So Putin has determined he is the "saviour" of "Russian" people, even if they are not ethnically Russian. Of course he must make such a distinction to rationalize a land grab. The self identified ethnically Russian populations of the Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts, as at the last census, stood at 39%.
I was surprised to see that in the American media.
What is this 'land grab' you speak of? You still imagine that Russia actually wants this region as part of Russia?
An almost identical justification to the annexation of Crimea.
Why would Russia interfere if it does not have designs on the region?
The point of the link I posted, and as backed up by your NYT piece, is the Junta is still killing its own people, including children, as the west looks on quietly.
The government cannot be called a junta, as both the Rada and the president have been legitimately elected. However, how would you propose terrorists hiding among civilians be dealt with? Should they be allowed to continue to terrorize the population and kill them indiscriminately, as they have been doing now for months? It is a sad reality of dealing with terrorists who have been armed by a foreign government to destabilize a region, who terrorize the locals, and killed Ukrainian soldiers during a one sided ceasefire.
BTW, I don't recall you being particularly concerned with the Russian actions in Chechnya, which were far more brutal, and prolonged, than this.
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I might be incorrect here but I was under the assumption that the rebels were causing a large number of civilian deaths with their misplaced mortar attacks?
The rebels have aviation?
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2417-posledstviya-vcherashnego-obstrela-luganskoy-foto-18.html
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I might be incorrect here but I was under the assumption that the rebels were causing a large number of civilian deaths with their misplaced mortar attacks?
The rebels have aviation?
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2417-posledstviya-vcherashnego-obstrela-luganskoy-foto-18.html
One Russian top political adviser want to give the terrorists Russian air support.
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I might be incorrect here but I was under the assumption that the rebels were causing a large number of civilian deaths with their misplaced mortar attacks?
The rebels have aviation?
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2417-posledstviya-vcherashnego-obstrela-luganskoy-foto-18.html
They don't need aircraft to lob mortar rounds into populated areas. Let's not play games, there is substantial evidence both sides are causing civilian death and injury.
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The latest poll. Note, even in the East, the actions of the terrorists are having a negative effect on views of Russia. These views did not exist previously.
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/news.php?news_id=477
The Razumkov Center has received funds from the National Endowment for Democracy, one of the many arms of the State Department.
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there is substantial evidence both sides are causing civilian death and injury.
No. Just junta. How did u like their last mistake? There was no any rebels in Kondrashovka and Luganskaya.
https://www.youtube.com//v/uHBzJctzKEs
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Russia's reaction to renewed hostilities:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/world/europe/russia-demands-new-cease-fire-in-ukraine.html?ref=world
So Putin has determined he is the "saviour" of "Russian" people, even if they are not ethnically Russian. Of course he must make such a distinction to rationalize a land grab. The self identified ethnically Russian populations of the Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts, as at the last census, stood at 39%.
I was surprised to see that in the American media.
What is this 'land grab' you speak of? You still imagine that Russia actually wants this region as part of Russia?
An almost identical justification to the annexation of Crimea.
Why would Russia interfere if it does not have designs on the region?
No, its not the same. Russia faced Ukraine joining NATO which would have meant eventual expulsion of Russia from Crimea while the US laughed up their sleeve. In Putin's own words, Crimea is the historical site of Russia's naval glory. The area is very Russian oriented. It was only common sense, sensing what was to come, that Crimea returned back to Russian control. He did what he had to do to make that happen. Without a bullet fired.
In his shoes? I'd have done the same.
The eastern region is a different ball game. That is a big financial responsibility that Russia doesn't want to pay for. Independence is the route Russia will seek for that region, as soon enough the people will tire of being bombed by their own government and a majority will agree to break away and a new country will be formed. The majority of Ukraine will fall to US/EU control as it is now.
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The latest poll. Note, even in the East, the actions of the terrorists are having a negative effect on views of Russia. These views did not exist previously.
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/news.php?news_id=477
The Razumkov Center has received funds from the National Endowment for Democracy, one of the many arms of the State Department.
Then you'd think they would have cooked their results sooner:
http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=839
The Mohyla Academy was resurrected by the Ukrainian diaspora (i.e., the genetically anti Semitic descendants of "fascists"). It received grants from the Canadian government and the Soros Foundation, among others. Yet it is not a lackey to any of those who provided it funding.
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Another article, quite different than the last few posted.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/2957958-putin-under-pressure-fighting-rages-ukraine.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
Interesting. Thanks for posting that.
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No, its not the same. Russia faced Ukraine joining NATO which would have meant eventual expulsion of Russia from Crimea while the US laughed up their sleeve. In Putin's own words, Crimea is the historical site of Russia's naval glory. The area is very Russian oriented. It was only common sense, sensing what was to come, that Crimea returned back to Russian control. He did what he had to do to make that happen. Without a bullet fired.
Until the annexation of Crimea, the majority of Ukraine's population, in virtually all regions, had always opposed joining NATO. Below is a link to poll results from 2002 to 2009. A google search will yield others, the results are almost all identical.
http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=46
Please provide any credible source (RT and any statement by Putin are excluded) which indicates Ukraine ever had any intention of joining NATO. The annexation of Crimea was never about NATO.
The eastern region is a different ball game. That is a big financial responsibility that Russia doesn't want to pay for. Independence is the route Russia will seek for that region
I believe on at least 3 occasions, one on this very thread not too long ago, you posted that the eastern regions would "go home" again. Of course, you failed to address the fact these regions are majority ethnically Ukrainian, so Russia was never "home".
as soon enough the people will tire of being bombed by their own government and a majority will agree to break away and a new country will be formed.
The civilians may also tire of being held hostage by terrorist criminals.
The majority of Ukraine will fall to US/EU control as it is now
Let's see - aligned either with an authoritarian regime in a country which, throughout its history, has jailed and/or executed its writers, poets, journalists, composers, and any dissident who dared to question official policies, or countries where freedom of expression is constitutionally enshrined, and even, in some corners, celebrated, albeit imperfectly. Added to that, the former is a country which, during much of its history, has marginalized Ukrainians, suppressing their culture, language, and religions.
What to choose, what to choose. :-\ :-\ :-\ Yup. That's a tough one.
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This is funny news: https://twitter.com/newsdnr/status/485507439241211904
quote :
"Ополченцам, прибывшим сегодня из Славянска на Щорса 62, требуются срочно матрасы. На всех не хватило имеющихся в наличии."
"Militia, who arrived today from Slavonic into Щорса 62, required urgently mattresses. Not enough at all available."
BUT,,, The comments are much more funnier! :D
some of them :
"why mattresses? Immediately coffins can bring"
"Militias urgently need refrigeration."
ps
they have tanks, BTRs, ammo etc...(you can buy this in every gunshop in Ukraine) - but they don't have enough mattresses?
Why it is so difficult to go to the shops and buy these mattresses?
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While the intent of the IMF loan conditions may have been evil, the rationale was sound. The value in Ukraine, for now at least, is in the eastern and southern oblasti that are filled with subhuman terrorists (according to the prime minister of Ukraine).
Someone asked me about this, and I missed it the first go around. That is not what Yatseniuk stated.
The word Yatseniuk used was "нелюди". The meaning of this word is different in Russian and Ukrainian. In Ukrainian, this means an action of extreme cruelty, fiendish, or, in the context, inhumane. The Hitler like meme the Russian propaganda machine wishes to invoke is not true in this particular case.
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The point of the link I posted, and as backed up by your NYT piece, is the Junta is still killing its own people, including children, as the west looks on quietly.
I might be incorrect here but I was under the assumption that the rebels were causing a large number of civilian deaths with their misplaced mortar attacks?
Sasha--you are correct. Some of the Putin justifiers here on forum are so blind they persist in regurgitation of Kremlin propaganda--it seems to me that they think by saying it often enough that the world will believe those lies are true.
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Sasha--you are correct. Some of the Putin justifiers here on forum are so blind they persist in regurgitation of Kremlin propaganda--it seems to me that they think by saying it often enough that the world will believe those lies are true.
:party0031: :party0031: :party0031: :party0031: :party0031: :party0031: :party0031:
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Novorossia localities affected by ukrainian junta.
№ Название Кол-во жителей (Википедия)
1 Авдеевка обстрел, бои на блок постах 35 358
2 Ананьевка обтсрел (приграничное) 332
3 Андреевка южнее Славянска, разрушена 1 325
4 Артема (поселок) обстрел артиллерией, разрушен 100
5 Артемовск обстрел пригорода, бои в в.ч 103 890
6 Беленькое бои, обстрел авиацией 10 172
7 Бирюково бои (приграничн) 3 970
8 Богородичное обстрел 794
9 Большая Вергунка авиаудар 6 000
10 Брусино обстрел 380
11 Брусовка боевые действия 163
12 Былбасовка обстрелы, град 9 500
13 Валуйское обстрел, бои 3 996
14 Варваровка обстрел, захвачена 1 552
15 Веселый (поселок, Краматорск) обстрел, град 3 460
16 Вишневое (село, ЛНР) бои 903
17 Власовка (граница) бои 1 833
18 Воеводовка (Северодонецк) бои 562
19 Восточный (Славянск) уничтожен 203
20 Высоко-Ивановка бои 352
21 Голубовка (ДНР) обстрел 462
22 Гольмовский (пос. Под Горловкой) авиаудары 7 104
23 Горловка обстрел авиацией 258 879
24 Горняк (ДНР) захвачен, расстрел мирных 795
25 Делеевка (Константиновка) бои, авиаудар 486
26 Дзержинск бои, обстрел 35 899
27 Дибровка (Кр.Лим.) бои 384
28 Дмитриевка (Саур Могила) большие разрушения, много мирных 1 020
29 Дмитровка (Саур-Могила) бои, авиаудар 3 370
30 Долгенькое бои (колоны) 850
31 Должанское бои 680
32 Долина (Славянский район) бои (колоны) 557
33 Донецк 949 825
34 Дружковка бои, обстрел пригорода 60 255
35 Дьяково (ЛНР) бои, обстрел 2 870
36 Желтое поселок бои, захвачен 1 312
37 Журавское (поселок, ЛНР) обстрел 296
38 Закотное разрушены дома 573
39 Изварино бои 1 755
40 Ильичовка обстрел, сильные повреждения 263
41 Камышное бои 732
42 Карловка (Донецк) танковые бои 414
43 Карповка бои 119
44 Кировск (ДНР) бои 2 688
45 Кондрашовка (ЛНР) авианалеты, сильные разрушения 682
46 Краматорск без комментариев 165 469
47 Краснодон (окрестности) бои 44 844
48 Красный Лиман убийство мирных, обстрелы 23 413
49 Красный Партизан бои, обстрел 879
50 Кременная бои, обстрел артиллерией 24 435
51 Кривая Лука выселены все жители, обстрел 380
52 Лисичанск обстрелы, сражения, авиаудары 105 862
53 Луганск 463 287
54 Макарово сильные разрушения 1 768
55 Малиновое (ЛНР) бои 105
56 Малотарановка (Лисичанск) обстрелы 3 682
57 Мариуполь бои 458 633
58 Марковка (ЛНР) обстрел 7 841
59 Марьинка (ДНР) бои 9 978
60 Марьиновка (Саур Могила) бои, большое количество жителей 1 735
61 Масляковка (Пригород Красн. Лимана) бои, захвачен 460
62 Меловое (поселок, ЛНР) бои 0
63 Металлист (поселок, ЛНР) бои, обстрел 1 541
64 Мирное (ЛНР) бои 396
65 Мироновка (ДНР) бои 106
66 Нетайлово (ДНР) бои прорыв 1 141
67 Никифоровка (ДНР) бои 645
68 Николаевка (город, ДНР) разрушения, бои, частые обстрелы, град 7 640
69 Николаевка (село, Луганск) бои 648
70 Новая Кондрашовка (село, ЛНР) обстрел, авиаобстрел 262
71 Октябрьское (село, ДНР) бои 78
72 Ольховое (ЛНР) бои 3 114
73 Панченково (село, ЛНР) бои 694
74 Пески (село, Славянск) артиллерия, авиация 142
75 Петровка (пгт, ЛНР) стрельба 5 373
76 Пискуновка (ДНР, Славянск) обстрел, разрушения (ополчения там не было) 174
77 Приволье (возле Лисичанска) обстрел мирных, авиаудар 967
78 Райгородок обстрел 3 658
79 Ровеньки (ЛНР) бои под городом, град 91 500
80 Рубежное обстрел 353 000
81 Сауровка массовые убийства местных Днепр2, Айдар2 105
82 Свердловск обстрел 65 276
83 Северный почти разрушен, град 2 298
84 Северодонецк бои, обстрел 109 959
85 Северск почти разрушен 1 285
86 Селидово обстрел 24 269
87 Семеновка уничтожена, град 280
88 Сергеевка (Славянск) обстрел. Захвачена 1 596
89 Славянск без комментариев, град 119 482
90 Снежное обстрел, бои 49 564
91 Ставки обстрел 364
92 Станица Луганская обстрел, авиаудары 14 543
93 Старая Краснянка обстрел 882
94 Старый Караван бои 191
95 Степановка (Саур Могила) множество мирных, обстрелы 368
96 Счастье массированный обстрел, много мирных убито 13 799
97 Тараны обстрел, захвачен 59
98 Торез (окрестности) авиаудар 80 781
99 Торское село (Кр.Лиман) обстрел, пожары, бои 473
100 Травневое (село) боевые действия 286
101 Ульяновка (ДНР) бои 730
102 Урало-Кавказ (граница ЛНР) бои 6 121
103 Целинный (Славянск) бои 270
104 Червоная Заря бои 85
105 Черевковка уничтожен 268
106 Шандриговлово уничтожен 1 035
107 Щедрищево (поселок,ЛНР) обстрел артиллерией 370
108 Щурово (поселок, Славянск) сильные разрушения 264
109 Ямполь массированный обстрел, много мирных убито, град 2 650
110 Ясная Поляна сильные разрушения 4 606
111 Ясногорка (ДНР., Краматорск) обстрелы, разрушения 8 576
112 Яцковка (село, ДНР, Славянск) обстрелы 490
The total population: 3 812 290
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я поражаюсь этой зомбированности. а ничего что 70% убитых имеют российское гражданство? с каких это пор у нас работают люди официально с российским гражданством? лично я не видела ни разу что бы россияне у нас получали рабочие места а украинцы маялись от безработицы.
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Ladine, don't confuse her with facts! :'(
Her mind's made up.
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Kramatork "joyfully meets their liberators"
https://www.youtube.com//v/IMbAkM_yMck
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Ladine, don't confuse her with facts! :'(
Her mind's made up.
i agree :biggrin:
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Another batch of Russians headed home..
I hope the rest of them will soon join these.
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Another batch of Russians headed home..
I hope the rest of them will soon join these.
this is called cargo 200. went another parcel cargo 200
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I hope many more truckloads will soon follow these invaders.
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I hope many more truckloads will soon follow these invaders.
There is no joy in celebrating the death of a person, no matter what cause they espouse.
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I hope many more truckloads will soon follow these invaders.
yet few know how many Russian citizens are buried here in a common grave. Russian people will soon look for their loved ones on TV show "Wait for me" then we really know how much Russian yet we still is not Identified as pieces of meat and intestines in different parts of our Ukraine.a trucks have enough that would return them the that they themselves created. - Hatred.
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I hope many more truckloads will soon follow these invaders.
There is no joy in celebrating the death of a person, no matter what cause they espouse.
True but better the invading Russian terrorists be put in the red boxes than Ukrainians!
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I was struck by just one situation. This is when Putin gave orders to shoot at their border crossing. when people began to flee from the country. I was shocked. It turns out he just wanted to get rid of the people who live in Russia only dream about war. people who earn their living by killing others.
Now many of them hiding with us in Kherson. and we are all very careful.
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(http://cs618526.vk.me/v618526472/105c9/FcY5nnQ7XD8.jpg)
Once the Russians understand that everything they believed in? there is a blatant lie. but it is very close history
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I write people whose family came from Russia that are now Ukraine citzens that used to live in Luganski. They had to fee to get away from, pro Russian separatist. These separatist were very hated by the people I am writting. She and her mother had a job for many years. They were happy with the city but sometimes did complain about the Ukrainian government. After this they are so happy to have Ukraine government back. She complain before she left that people were getting killed on the streets for no reason. Russians and Ukrainians who called themselves Pro Russian separates were stealing what ever they could and using guns to do it. They are very happy to see Ukraine government get rid of this mess and she hopes to be able to return home one day. Her boss owned 6 furniture stores and had to close all stores and move west to escape.
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ну что мила. не хочешь отвечать на мой вопрос? аргументов не осталось ? (:)
а что ты тогда скажешь на это ?
Россияне под Кремлем спели известный хит ультрас про Путина В воскресенье, 6 июля, на Манежной площади в Москве (Россия) прошла очередная акция протеста против преследования политзаключенных и участников «Болотного дела». Собравшиеся спели известный хит футбольных ультрас про президента РФ Владимира Путина. Девять участников акции рядом с Кремлем спели набирающую все большую популярность песню «Путин – х*йло». Одна из митингующих была в футболке с аналогичной надписью, сообщают
(http://nbnews.com.ua/ru/img/text/11/59/14047151558934.jpg)
Также собравшиеся держали растяжку со словами «Свободу политзаключенным!»
В воскресенье, 6 июля, на Манежной площади в Москве (Россия) прошла очередная акция протеста против преследования политзаключенных и участников «Болотного дела». Собравшиеся спели известный хит футбольных ультрас про президента РФ Владимира Путина. Девять участников акции рядом с Кремлем спели набирающую все большую популярность песню «Путин – х*йло». Одна из митингующих была в футболке с аналогичной надписью, сообщают «Грани» (http://grani.ru/Politics/Russia/activism/m.230840.html).
Также собравшиеся держали растяжку со словами «Свободу политзаключенным!»
Всех активистов задержала полиция, их посадили в автозак и увезли в отделения. Отметим, когда участники митинга оказались в автозаке, то спели гимн Украины и скандировали «Слава Украине».
Около полуночи всех задержанных освободили.
Следите за свежими новостями НБН на Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/nbnewscomua).
я люблю таких россиян. которые не поддались Гебельс ТВ :chuckle:
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The Ukrainian army is preparing to dislodge Kremlin-backed separatists from Donetsk and Lugansk, the provincial capitals of two oblasts where 15 percent of Ukraine's population lives. The Interior Ministry's announcement that Kiev will reassert its authority comes after the recapture by government forces of four cities across the region in recent days.
At a briefing on July 7, advisor to Ukraine’s interior minister Anton Gerashchenko outlined further plans for the government’s anti-terrorist operation and said normal life was returning to liberated Sloviansk, with all necessary services in the city set to resume in due course.
“Whoever remembers Grozny after its liberation by the Russian army, it was nothing more than a desert. Sloviansk, as you can see, is complete and has not been bombed. The people met our soldiers with open arms, crying from happiness,” a visibly confident Gerashchenko said, gesturing to a video showing an aerial view of the city following its recapture.
A video taken from a Ukrainian army helicopter showing Sloviansk after its liberation from rebel control.
According to Gerashchenko, Sloviansk’s railway station and post office will begin operating within 24 hours while supermarkets were being stocked up and food brought in for local inhabitants. Work is also being done to reconnect the water system as soon as possible, he added.
Pictures have been emerging in recent days of supplies arriving in Sloviansk, with volunteers distributing food and medical aid to locals standing in long lines behind the delivery trucks.
All citizens in the town are meanwhile being questioned on their involvement and possible complicity with the actions of rebel forces, Gerashchenko said.
“We turn to those living in surrounding towns and villages to inform us of those they know are taking part in terrorist activities. We will not let one person with blood on their hands go free,” he said.
Gerashchenko said the regional capitals of Donetsk and Lugansk had been cordoned off and all those wanting to leave the cities were being checked for weapons. Peaceful citizens not carrying arms were being allowed to exit freely, he added.
When asked by the Kiev Post about the inhabitants’ attitude towards advancing army forces, he said not more than 25% of the local population supports the separatists, and assigned responsibility for that minority’s views to “total” Russian propaganda.
“We are working on turning Russian channels off and Ukrainian channels back on across the region. The people’s mood is shifting – they have seen rebels robbing businessmen and witnessed widespread looting by their fighters,” he said, adding that 270 cars have been stolen from showrooms in Donetsk.
The army has reclaimed control of several border crossings, Gerashchenko added, with only a few left to take back.
“The border is under fire-cover, meaning if any kind of military equipment enters from the Russian side our scouts will alert us and we will destroy it from the air or using artillery fire. I think in the next few days this problem will be solved,” he said.
A map from July 6 showing recent gains made by Ukrainian army forces.
Gerashchenko’s statement comes in the wake of a string of Ukrainian army victories, which has raised morale among the troops and brought a tone of optimism to Ukrainian media coverage. The most symbolic victory in Ukraine's military offensive was the recapture of the rebel stronghold of Sloviansk, which returned to government control on July 5.
Since then Ukrainian forces have reportedly taken three more cities – Druzhkivka, Kramatorsk and Artemivsk – and images have surfaced online of the Ukrainian flag being hosted above the cities’ administration buildings.
Despite their recent losses, the rebels still hold the two regional capitals, where they have regrouped following a series of defeats elsewhere. Thousands have reportedly fled in recent days and weeks from Donetsk, a city with an official population of 1 million people, fearing its transformation into the next flashpoint in the three month-long military conflict. Many local businesses have also closed.
Meanwhile, rebel forces continue to attack government positions. On July 7 separatists blew up three bridges overlooking roads leading into Donetsk, in an apparent attempt to obstruct the army's access to the regional capital.
On the same day nine Ukrainian border guards were killed and 112 injured after a rebel attack, the deputy head of the State Border Service said at a press conference in Kiev. One person has reportedly been flown to Israel for specialist treatment.
A column of separatist fighters marching into Donetsk following their retreat from former stronghold Sloviansk.
A rally in support of the rebels in central Donetsk on July 6 drew a crowd of around 1,000 people, according to witnesses, a comparatively small proportion of the regional capital’s inhabitants.
"We will begin a real partisan war around the whole perimeter of Donetsk,” Pavel Gubarev, leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, told the crowd. “We will drown these wretches in blood.” Gubarev however warned that without Russian aid rebel forces are unlikely to succeed.
Speaking on Ukrainian TV, Ukraine’s richest man and Donetsk native Rinat Akhmetov called for the government to exercise restraint in its urban offensive against rebel forces. “Donetsk must not be bombed. Donbas must not be bombed,” he said in an interview with the “Ukraina” TV channel on July 6.
Kiev Post staff writer Matthew Luxmoore can be reached at mjluxmoore@gmail.com and on Twitter at @mjluxmoore.
http://www.Kievpost.com/conten...ers-pace-354990.html
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Looks like the host site pulled that topic - the link is dead.
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Try this one..
Same story that I copied above... word for word.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/army-prepares-to-liberate-donetsk-and-Lugansk-as-mlitary-offensive-gathers-pace-354990.html
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Thanks Mike. It was the map I clicked through to see.
[attachimg=1]
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"On Monday afternoon in Slovyansk, Ukraine’s interior minister, Arsen Avakov, stood under a statue of Lenin, promising to bring the 'terrorists' to justice and restore basic services to the city by the end of the day.
Residents greeted him with questions about reconstruction and compensation for damage as a light mist coated the central square. Some shed tears at the mere mention of running water.
'What kind of future is there for Ukraine?' one elderly woman in a blue plastic poncho asked the minister.
'A beautiful one,' Mr. Avakov said, flashing a smile."
... with debts that we cannot pay, worthless bonds, decaying infrastructure, shrinking GNP, corruption as usual and lots of dead separatists. Life is good! No, we aren't compensating you for anything; now go away and be happy that you are still getting your 60 USD monthly retirement checks.
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Russia's lies about Ukraine.
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-20-lies-about-ukraine
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-40-lies-about-ukraine
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-60-lies-about-ukraine
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Russia's lies about Ukraine.
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-20-lies-about-ukraine
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-40-lies-about-ukraine
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-60-lies-about-ukraine
They sure tell some whoppers! It's amazing how many 'droids' believe them though.
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with debts that we cannot pay, worthless bonds, decaying infrastructure, shrinking GNP, corruption as usual and lots of dead separatists. Life is good! No, we aren't compensating you for anything; now go away and be happy that you are still getting your 60 USD monthly retirement checks.
If Ukrainian tax authorities investigated fraud the way it is done in the West, they would have no fiscal imbalance.
The minimum monthly pension is between US$120 and $200.
Ukrainians have stated that they are willing to endure more hardship now for a better life in the future, for themselves and their children.
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You got know the biggest lie of all is that American mercenary armies are fighting in the Ukraine for the ukrainian government. Does any one know what an America mercenary wants to get paid?
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You got know the biggest lie of all is that American mercenary armies are fighting in the Ukraine for the ukrainian government. Does any one know what an America mercenary wants to get paid?
The money they make is crazy and if they were truly there, this would be over.
20 of those guys well outfitted, would wipe out the 15,000 so called military resistance
in a few days.
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You got know the biggest lie of all is that American mercenary armies are fighting in the Ukraine for the ukrainian government. Does any one know what an America mercenary wants to get paid?
The money they make is crazy and if they were truly there, this would be over.
20 of those guys well outfitted, would wipe out the 15,000 so called military resistance
in a few days.
A CNN article from 2011 basically says some of the private security contractors, meaning ex US special forces, were earning anywhere from $500/day and up. For 20 guys that would be $10,000/day and about $300,000/month plus other costs such as guns and ammo, clothing, boots, transportation, food and shelter, etc, etc.
Even an oligarch would be feeling the economic pinch with that type of outflow of capital. I'm sure ex Russian or Ukrainian military, even special forces, would be much cheaper.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/27/confessions-of-a-private-security-contractor/
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Some people here have expressed war crimes when the war is over. Many of these crimes will not be the Ukrainian government.
(Reuters) - Armed separatist groups and pro-Kiev forces have abducted, then beaten and tortured activists, protesters and journalists in eastern Ukraine in the last three months, Amnesty International said in a report published on Friday.
No thorough or reliable data is available on the number of abductions, the rights group said. But figures from Ukraine's interior ministry show there were almost 500 abductions between April and June, and the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission for Ukraine reported 222 cases in that time, it said.
"The bulk of the abductions are being perpetrated by armed separatists, with the victims often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture," said Denis Krivosheev, Amnesty International's deputy director of Europe and Central Asia.
true "There is also evidence of a smaller number of abuses by pro-Kiev forces," he added
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The full report from Amnesty International is here:
http://images.derstandard.at/2014/07/10/Abductions-and-Torture-in-Eastern-Ukraineengl.pdf
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The crisis in Ukraine looked as if it was beginning to cool, then it wasn't. Friday a rocket attack by pro Russian separatists killed 19 Ukrainian soldiers and wounded about 100. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has called for revenge.
Do the separatists want to go down fighting? Will Putin send more aid? Will Putin support them covertly? Will Putin support them openly? Will Ukraine step up the war against the separatists and do as Putin did in Chechnya and simply lay waste to the separatist strongholds?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-president-vows-revenge-after-19-soldiers-killed-in-rebel-rocket-attack/2014/07/11/28dde6c2-093e-11e4-a0dd-f2b22a257353_story.html
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https://www.youtube.com//v/HJhrlSfekdo
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2677613/American-military-advisers-masterminding-Ukraines-surge-against-pro-Russian-separatists-bid-expand-Nato-east.html
I never think Brits are pro-Putin agents too ;D
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The crisis in Ukraine looked as if it was beginning to cool, then it wasn't. Friday a rocket attack by pro Russian separatists killed 19 Ukrainian soldiers and wounded about 100. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has called for revenge.
Do the separatists want to go down fighting? Will Putin send more aid? Will Putin support them covertly? Will Putin support them openly? Will Ukraine step up the war against the separatists and do as Putin did in Chechnya and simply lay waste to the separatist strongholds?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-president-vows-revenge-after-19-soldiers-killed-in-rebel-rocket-attack/2014/07/11/28dde6c2-093e-11e4-a0dd-f2b22a257353_story.html
Just 19? Junta tends to belittle their loses :smokin:
As for following stupid questions... address its to real genocide organizers.
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https://www.youtube.com//v/MshQF4g2Lm4&feature=youtu.be
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some reporting from the ukraine side on events below
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/07/14/dmitry-tymchuk-a-couple-of-words-about-current-events-in-eastern-ukraine/
SX
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The view of one Ukrainian in the news.
"One Lugansk resident named Sergei told The Associated Press that panic had gripped the city Monday over reports that Ukrainian paratroopers were slipping in and detaining rebel fighters. Exit points from the city have been blocked and militiamen were confiscating cars and belongings from residents attempting to flee, he said, declining to give his last name due to fears of reprisal."
"The new Ukrainian government's vetting of troops, decisiveness and willingness to take casualties that have given its military an edge."
The biggest problem Puttin is having with giving sepertist more help is "the separatists in eastern Ukraine have done a poor job of generating popular support. Instead of sparking a pro-Russian popular uprising, they have alienated much of the population in eastern Ukraine."
“Separatists have worn out their welcome,” Pifer said. “The population is tired of this.”
http://www.euronews.com/newswires/2597338-analysis-as-ukrainian-forces-advance-putin-plays-a-double-game/
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FACT SHEET: Russia’s Continuing Support for Armed Separatists in Ukraine and Ukraine’s Efforts Toward Peace, Unity, and Stability
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesperson
July 14, 2014
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/factsheet-07142014.html
Some interesting reading for those who have not seen it.
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The strange thing about this war in the beginning it was mainly Ukrainian with Russian organization. But as the war go on their less Ukrainian fighters and more Russian who think they know what is best. If the foreign fighters would go home their would not be much of a war.
The girl I write that was in Lugansk was not having any trouble with Ukraine government before Pro Russian separatist came and turn the city into a place that was pretty much without laws. Robberies would take place during the day light and on one would do anything about it. Even people would get shot in the streets while being robbed and there was no police to stop it. She is of Russian decent and has relatives that live in Russia. She has often said she does not like Russian government. This government is like big bully to other nations.
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When you are looking for people to fight and kill you end up with lots of criminals.
Most people do not rally for big change, not really. They may get caught up in the moment like the Obama mantra but what they want is for their world to exist as it has been and be peaceful.
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http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/23539.html
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/23697.html
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/24645.html
I suppose, the junta fans hysterical here will increase because the rebels are fighting well enouth last days.
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FACT SHEET: Russia’s Continuing Support for Armed Separatists in Ukraine and Ukraine’s Efforts Toward Peace, Unity, and Stability
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesperson
July 14, 2014
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/factsheet-07142014.html
Some interesting reading for those who have not seen it.
Is that America's version of Russia Today? Who uses phrases like "We are confident" and "Available information indicates" on a supposed fact sheet? Not to mention "they assert" which passes the burden of proof to others.
Some quite slippery language in there:
Separately Russia continues to redeploy new forces extremely close to the Ukrainian border.
What, Russia doing something in Russia? Perish the thought.
It is full of buck passing, assumptions, opinion and unproven items presented as fact.
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http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/23539.html (http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/23539.html)
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/23697.html (http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/23697.html)
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/24645.html (http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/24645.html)
I suppose, the junta fans hysterical here will increase because the rebels are fighting well enouth last days.
какая глупость и слепота. На самом деле это истерия что бы прикрыть свой крах. Если бы они были на столько сильны? они бы не только не отдали Славянск и Краматорск Но уже и завоевали бы пол НовоРоссии как вы все мечтаете. Но тем не менее их пятачок становится все меньше и меньше. а ты верь дальше что они такие всемогущие. я читаю самого Стрелка. И вижу какая истерия уже у него самого.
вот одно из его сообщений. про сбитый самолет. он не может даже сам сказать кто его сбил ибо хорошо знает что у нас такого оружия нет
14.07.14. Сообщение от министра обороны ЛНР Игоря Плотницкого.
"Да, мы подтверждаем, что были сбиты два самолета и захвачены в плен несколько человек. Мне доложили о двух пленных. Самолеты были сбиты из ПЗРК, а не из ЗРК с территории ЛНР. Первый самолет был самолет-разведчик, второй — десантный. Десантный самолет не высаживается с высоты 6,5 километра, и тем более разведка с такой высоты. Она (разведка) может, конечно, но будет очень неточной. Поэтому я считаю, что высота была до 3 тысяч метров, что позволило ополчению успешно применить ПЗРК "Игла".
14.07.14. Сообщение от экспертов в области ПВО.
"Думаем, что сегодня ополчением для уничтожения самолета АН-26 противника на высоте более 6 000 метров скорее всего было прменено ЗРК "9К37М1" (более известное, как "Бук"). Несколько недель назад сообщалось о захвате ополчением этих систем.Эти комплексы позволяют сбивать самолеты на высотах более 4 000 метров. Ранее ополчение было бессильно против самолетов противника, летающих на таких высотах, так как ни ПЗРК, ни ЗУ отработать такие высоты не в состоянии. "
как же расходятся его думанья пятой точкой.
кроме того он дает факты яко бы наших погибших массово. где количество сильно завышено. в его постах. и сам не понимает что это далеко не наши подразделения погибли под груз +200. либо врет либо просто выдает желаемое за действительно не осознавая что гибнут реально русские наемные.
а вот еле нашла..... тут самый истребитель который бомбил жилые дома. Красиво он дал понять на глупость людей. Правда так и не решился открыто написать что это его самолет бомбил без разбора..
Сводки от Стрелкова Игоря Ивановича
13 июля 2014 в 12:39
13.07.14. 13:22 Сообщение от ополченца.
"В Луганске ревет сирена гражданской обороны, оповещая жителей об опасности.
Над городом пролетел штурмовик СУ-25 ополчения, который был принят жителями за украинский. По уточненной информации, ополчение починило и подняло в воздух захваченный боевой самолет ВВСУ".
Ждем официальные комментарии от штаба ополчения.
вот откуда и идет вся хрень что это мы бомбим мирных жителей.
так что ? кому ты поверишь теперь? ну если ума нет. прости чужого не вставишь а своим делиться не хочу. жалко
кстати. добавлю. Я поняла почему Россия даже к нашим границам потянула военные силы. предполагается поток этих наемников на нашу территорию что бы скрыться и делать диверсии и у нас. что бы сбежать в Крым. Но уже не раз было что Россия запускала к нам вольнонаемных а потом не выпускала назад на территорию России. Расстреливая своих же на границах. Да мы уже информированы. и эти Стрелки с их ополченцами до границы могу не дойти. разве что только доехать грузом + 200.
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а вот свежее сообщение где он открыто говорит что подорвал мосты
Сводки Стрелкова Игоря Степановича
16.07.14. 11:13 Сообщение от ополчения.
"Продолжается обстрел Луганского аэропорта из РСЗО и ствольной артиллерии. В районе окруженного аэродрома блокирован его первоначальный гарнизон и прорвавшаяся 13-14 июля часть бронегруппы - до 40-45 единиц танков, БМП и САУ. Гарнизон в ближайшие 2-3 дня даже если не брать в расчет обстрелы, начнет испытывать недостаток в боеприпасах. Вчера поздно вечером РДГ на 38 кме перегона Новобахмутовка - Горловка Донецкой железной дороги был совершен подрыв парных и непарных путей перегона для предотвращения передвижений войск."
он сам терпит уже поражение. и прекрасно это начинает понимать
так что дорогая не мели ерунды если не понимаешь ничего в военном деле. а истерию устраивать может даже сам Стрелок )))))))))))
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It is full of buck passing, assumptions, opinion and unproven items presented as fact.
Pretty much why I thought it was interesting. They could/should have done better. Ukraine has done better on the subject. But in the end it is the official view it appears.
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created a public petition the UN Security Council: President Putin to recognize a war criminal
https://secure.avaaz.org/ru/petition/Sovet_Bezopasnosti_OON_Priznat_Prezidenta_RF_Putina_VV_voennym_prestupnikom/?ftlIzWhb
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It is full of buck passing, assumptions, opinion and unproven items presented as fact.
Pretty much why I thought it was interesting. They could/should have done better. Ukraine has done better on the subject. But in the end it is the official view it appears.
As with anything, all participants have their own version of events. The truth, as ever, will be somewhere in the middle.
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Here is another goodie. This I believe is Utube video by a Russian from the Russian side of the border showing Russia firing off at a Ukrainian village just across the border. It is all Russian language but for those that can get around it you may also find it interesting.
http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiyani-oprilyudnili-videodokazi-obstrilu-ukrayini-z-gradiv-z-teritoriyi-rf-359438.html
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PRAGUE, July 24 (Reuters) - Construction work on a pipeline that will allow gas to be sent from western Europe to Ukraine is on schedule and the contracted capacity will be available from Sept. 1, Slovak pipeline operator Eustream said on Thursday
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/slovakia-says-gas-ukraine-schedule-120835572.html
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Unless I missed it posted elsewhere, I am surprised this hasn't been brought up yet:
Washington (AFP) - The United States on Thursday said it had evidence Russian forces were firing artillery from inside Russia on Ukrainian troops, in what officials called a "clear escalation" of the conflict.
Moscow is also planning to "deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers" to the pro-Russian separatist forces in Ukraine, US deputy State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said.
The evidence was based on "intelligence information" indicating arms were "continuing to flow across the border" into Ukraine since the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner with 298 on board, Harf said.
But she refused to reveal the evidence behind the allegation or give further information.
Full story here:
http://news.yahoo.com/evidence-moscow-firing-russia-ukraine-troops-us-181508795.html
Of course, proof has yet to be provided and the DoD is refusing to release evidence, but if all of what is mentioned in the article is true then,
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Unless I missed it posted elsewhere, I am surprised this hasn't been brought up yet:
Washington (AFP) - The United States on Thursday said it had evidence Russian forces were firing artillery from inside Russia on Ukrainian troops, in what officials called a "clear escalation" of the conflict.
Moscow is also planning to "deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers" to the pro-Russian separatist forces in Ukraine, US deputy State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said.
The evidence was based on "intelligence information" indicating arms were "continuing to flow across the border" into Ukraine since the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner with 298 on board, Harf said.
But she refused to reveal the evidence behind the allegation or give further information.
Full story here:
http://news.yahoo.com/evidence-moscow-firing-russia-ukraine-troops-us-181508795.html
Of course, proof has yet to be provided and the DoD is refusing to release evidence, but if all of what is mentioned in the article is true then,
It is true enough and like much of the news hit the Ukraine/Russia market a day or two before anyone here will even whisper it. For a few days now they have been sending more weapons in and shelling nearby positions of Ukraine's army. Possibly because Ukraine is advancing and slowly winning. Russia does not seem to be hiding it but has not yet commented on it.
It happened about the same time that the US said it was sending advisers. Makes some people wonder if we are returning to the cold war days or if it is a toe on the foot of WW3.
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
That isn't what the article linked says.
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Likely no one is sharing reports, because the Pro Russian, activists on this forum, scream & cry where is verified
truth. But I f Putin's bunch say anything, without being verified, its taken as gospel.
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Here is another goodie. This I believe is Utube video by a Russian from the Russian side of the border showing Russia firing off at a Ukrainian village just across the border. It is all Russian language but for those that can get around it you may also find it interesting.
http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiyani-oprilyudnili-videodokazi-obstrilu-ukrayini-z-gradiv-z-teritoriyi-rf-359438.html
Could someone offer a summary of what's being said? Also does the metadata from the video tell the location of the video?
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
Quite honestly which planet are you living on??
As the Ukrainian army recovers control of the Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts do you think the violence will stop (:)
It will move to assassination, suicide and truck bombing. Ukraine will not be allowed to commit genocide, the EU will never allow it, and genocide will be the only way to stop the separatists...
Western intelligence services opened "Pandora's box" by funding the Ukrainian nationalists. Whilst they run the federal government there will be no peace.
Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
There was no need to defend anyone until Russia decided to stick its nose into internal Ukrainian affairs.
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
Quite honestly which planet are you living on??
As the Ukrainian army recovers control of the Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts do you think the violence will stop (:)
It will move to assassination, suicide and truck bombing. Ukraine will not be allowed to commit genocide, the EU will never allow it, and genocide will be the only way to stop the separatists...
Western intelligence services opened "Pandora's box" by funding the Ukrainian nationalists. Whilst they run the federal government there will be no peace.
Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
Once you open that Pandoras box the killing will really start and not just for Russia. Does Russia have rights that other nations don't. Really?
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
Quite honestly which planet are you living on??
As the Ukrainian army recovers control of the Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts do you think the violence will stop (:)
It will move to assassination, suicide and truck bombing. Ukraine will not be allowed to commit genocide, the EU will never allow it, and genocide will be the only way to stop the separatists...
Western intelligence services opened "Pandora's box" by funding the Ukrainian nationalists. Whilst they run the federal government there will be no peace.
Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
Most Ukrainians have some level of Russian ties, and most don't want Russia's help.
So who exactly are they protecting? I think their interests, not any people!
But if so concerned about the people, tell the Rebels to stop, arrange open visa for any who wish to move to Russia and they protect people and the BS can stop. But you know & I know thats not what it is about for Putin.
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
(bolding above mine)
leslied have you had a few too many? Using that excuse every nation on Earth would have an excuse to invade its neighbours to protect their expats from some perceived abuse. A country like Russia would be open to invasion from so many other countries and organizations.
Lots of Chinese in Russia. Some aren't treated right. Does that mean China can invade Russia to protect the badly treated ethnic Chinese? What about Muslims in Russia? It's well known that some Muslims outside Russia believe Russia isn't treating its Muslim population properly. Does that mean some Muslim group can invade Russia to defend Muslims in Russia?
If Putin uses that excuse to invade Ukraine he is leaving Russia open to invasion from so many outside forces it would be difficult to predict the results.
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
There was no need to defend anyone until Russia decided to stick its nose into internal Ukrainian affairs.
Correction: There was no need to defend anyone until the EU and America decided to stick its nose into internal Ukrainian affairs.
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Where is the proof the EU/US interfered? The US specified their preferences for political leaders after Maidan, but there is no proof they instigated it. Nor is there any proof the EU did so.
Ukraine is of no strategic importance to either the EU or the US. One can't say the same for Russia.
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Where is the proof the EU/US interfered?
You are joking, right?
The US specified their preferences for political leaders after Maidan, but there is no proof they instigated it. Nor is there any proof the EU did so.
The US has no business specifying any preferences in Europe.
Ukraine is of no strategic importance to either the EU or the US. One can't say the same for Russia.
Be serious. The EU wants to gobble up yet another country as the expansionist entity it is, and America wants to put its missile defence shield thingy all around Russia. The US also hoped it would evict Russia from Crimea by encouraging revolution that they hoped would lead to EU membership. But Putin sorted that nonsense out before it started.
Ukraine is the chess board for America's non-military war with Russia. I thought everyone knew that. Maybe you missed the memo and the hundreds of pages here. :-\
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Well excuse me for dismissing the
propaganda sage advice from the pro Putinists on what is really occurring in Ukraine.
No, I am not joking. Show me the "smoking gun" that the US, or the EU instigated or funded Euromaidan. Russian propaganda analysis does not count, nor do the conspiracy theories of libertarians or bloggers.
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The US specified their preferences for political leaders after Maidan, but there is no proof they instigated it. Nor is there any proof the EU did so.
The US has no business specifying any preferences in Europe.
Of course Russia has no business stating any preferences for leaders in Ukraine. Agreed?
Ukraine is of no strategic importance to either the EU or the US. One can't say the same for Russia.
Be serious. The EU wants to gobble up yet another country as the expansionist entity it is, and America wants to put its missile defence shield thingy all around Russia. The US also hoped it would evict Russia from Crimea by encouraging revolution that they hoped would lead to EU membership. But Putin sorted that nonsense out before it started.
Ukraine is the chess board for America's non-military war with Russia. I thought everyone knew that. Maybe you missed the memo and the hundreds of pages here. :-\
Russia wants to keep Ukraine for Russia's own purposes. It would be a tremendous embarrassment to Putin if another FSU possession fled to the EU. He loses face and of course he loses Russia's largest trading partner from the FSU.
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
The majority of ethinic Russians in Ukraine do not want Putin to continue interfering in Ukraine.
Get a grip on reality. Putin's attacks on Ukraine, supplying arms, and other support to terrorists are for furthering his own political aims. The concept of protecting ethnic Russians is nothing but a convenient excuse, and a popular item of Putin's propaganda machine.
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Be serious. The EU wants to gobble up yet another country as the expansionist entity it is, and America wants to put its missile defence shield thingy all around Russia. The US also hoped it would evict Russia from Crimea by encouraging revolution that they hoped would lead to EU membership. But Putin sorted that nonsense out before it started.
Ukraine is the chess board for America's non-military war with Russia. I thought everyone knew that. Maybe you missed the memo and the hundreds of pages here.
It is useless to argue that any Russophobia. Especially because underfoot "Earth" is lit. War crimes have no statute of limitations. Ukrainians in one family can not agree on all 3 generations. I talked to travel with the Ukrainians. And the refugees too. Everyone has their own view of the events. Full discord in Ukrainian families. Prior to the full exclusion.
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I have zero Russophobia. My husband's roots go back to Moscow on one side of his family, where they lived from the 1700's, and St. Petersburg on the other side, where the lived from the time of Peter.
Refusing to read the same style of clumsy propaganda I read, and disbelieved, during Soviet disinformation campaigns in the 1980's does not make me a Russophobe.
Can you explain to me why the self appointed "leaders" in this conflict, Borodai, Strelkov, and Antiufeev, are citizens of Russia who lived in Russia before this conflict, and none ever lived in the region they proclaim to be "saving"?
Borodai admits to having contact with Russian security services. Are they discussing the weather?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28450303
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I have zero Russophobia. My husband's roots go back to Moscow on one side of his family, where they lived from the 1700's, and St. Petersburg on the other side, where the lived from the time of Peter.
Refusing to read the same style of clumsy propaganda I read, and disbelieved, during Soviet disinformation campaigns in the 1980's does not make me a Russophobe.
Can you explain to me why the self appointed "leaders" in this conflict, Borodai, Strelkov, and Antiufeev, are citizens of Russia who lived in Russia before this conflict, and none ever lived in the region they proclaim to be "saving"?
Borodai admits to having contact with Russian security services. Are they discussing the weather?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28450303
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What does Lasha Tumbai have to do with anything?
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So much for the idea that it's locals in Donetsk region of Ukraine who want the area to leave Ukraine and join Russia. Aleksander Borodai, a Russian national, recently returned from Moscow after 'consultations'. Why travel to Moscow for 'consultations'?
Locals don't appear to be too well represented in the pro-Russian separatist movement in Donetsk. All the top jobs are going to native Russians. Native Russians representing the wishes of locals in Donetsk? Doesn't seem like too much of a local uprising does it? Vladimir Antyufeyev was recently named deputy PM. He is a native Russian.
http://news.yahoo.com/pushing-locals-aside-russians-top-rebel-posts-east-110455468.html
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
That has got to be one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on this forum, and I've had the pleasure of reading some pretty asinine things here.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
That has got to be one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on this forum, and I've had the pleasure of reading some pretty asinine things here.
So if a bunch of American citizens were being downtrodden and legislated against someplace by a junta government, we wouldn't expect the arrival of Uncle Sam? I kinda doubt that somehow. Although that would be dressed up as spreading democracy and fighting for freedom I expect.
Gotta love those left side double standards. :chuckle:
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Please provide evidence of being "downtrodden". The legislation you refer to was vetoed almost immediately. Furthermore, even had it not been, as I have noted, Ukraine's constitution protects Russian minority rights. That was one of the parts of the original 1996 constitution that Yanukovych did not change. ;D
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Except they're not locals, they aren't wanted by most of the locals, they have terrorized and extra judicially executed locals, and at least one of them just returned from "meetings" in Moscow, and admits to having FSB contacts.
Not exactly just a switch of passports. In this case, google was right. You are not.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Except they're not locals, they aren't wanted by most of the locals, they have terrorized and extra judicially executed locals, and at least one of them just returned from "meetings" in Moscow, and admits to having FSB contacts.
Not exactly just a switch of passports. In this case, google was right. You are not.
Of all these locals that apparently despise Russia and its intervention, strange how so many of them have chosen to flee to Russia for safety (http://fox2now.com/2014/07/26/donetsk-residents-flee-fighting-russians-report-spike-in-ukrainian-refugees/) rather than western Ukraine.
Who flees to an 'invader' for safety? Answer: Nobody.
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
That has got to be one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on this forum, and I've had the pleasure of reading some pretty asinine things here.
So if a bunch of American citizens were being downtrodden and legislated against someplace by a junta government, we wouldn't expect the arrival of Uncle Sam? I kinda doubt that somehow. Although that would be dressed up as spreading democracy and fighting for freedom I expect.
Gotta love those left side double standards. :chuckle:
Yes the US would go and so would Canada, the difference is, we would get them out and bring them home.
Its been done before and likely will again. But not quite the same as your trying to justify.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Except they're not locals, they aren't wanted by most of the locals, they have terrorized and extra judicially executed locals, and at least one of them just returned from "meetings" in Moscow, and admits to having FSB contacts.
Not exactly just a switch of passports. In this case, google was right. You are not.
Of all these locals that apparently despise Russia and its intervention, strange how so many of them have chosen to flee to Russia for safety (http://fox2now.com/2014/07/26/donetsk-residents-flee-fighting-russians-report-spike-in-ukrainian-refugees/) rather than western Ukraine.
Who flees to an 'invader' for safety? Answer: Nobody.
The French
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Organizers of an Estonian blues festival have bounced martial arts master turned blues musician Steven Seagal from a local blues festival over his ongoing support for Putin.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/21/mh17-crash-steven-seagal-blues-festival-putin-support_n_5606154.html
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
That has got to be one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on this forum, and I've had the pleasure of reading some pretty asinine things here.
I could take that comment personally but in truth it says far more about you than me.
I lived in USA for almost 10 years in USA and I came to understand the almost universal xenophobia which afflicts most Americans. You make no effort to understand other cultures. Interpret everything by your own inane value system. You have an absolute belief that the whole world should be just like you. You believe this gives an inalienable right to impose your will around the world...
Your president has just asked congress for $500 million to arm and supply the ISIS forces. Strangely enough USA has spent the last decade fighting radical Islam but now recognizing that these guys have a chance of winning your foreign policy dictates that you try to buy favor with them :-[
You have NO RIGHT to interfere in this way but you do so on the unshakable belief that you are right...
I have been married to a Russian woman for more than a decade. My family speaks Russian. That immersion means that I am far more attuned to the Russian viewpoint than most of the members here. I have also spent YEARS in Ukraine. My perspective is not based on the brayings of the media but from personal experience and a very wide group of personal friends.
The ethnic mix in Ukraine is unfortunate bur is a legacy of history. In Soviet times the Russian community was ascendant. After independence the Ukrainian community became dominant. Stoically these communities endured poverty together, there were differences but also consensus. The events in Maidan shattered that consensus and swept in a radical Ukrainian administration. This administration which is supported by the EU and the USA is quite simply UNACCEPTABLE to many ethnic Russians.
the USA and EU has chosen to back this radical Ukrainian administration . You justify this outrageous behaviour in terms of your own value system. Russia has decided to side with ITS OWN PEOPLE. By your insane value system this is wicked and causes you to state that my assertion that Russia has every right to support Russians is an asinine statement...
Ther is no reciprocity of thought in that statement. It demonstrates a total absence of understanding of the real stiuation...
The sanctions your President Obama has enacted are a "flea bite" Only Europe has the capacity to impose meaningful sanctions on Russia and put simply that is NOT going to happen. Europe's sanctions are currently at the "flea bite" level and they will not escalate because Russia can impose sanctions on Europe which would be equally destructive. Europe's leaders will not vote for mutual economic catastrophe, they are smarter than that.
This civil war has only just begun. I fear where it will end.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Manny perhaps a little more common sense and some Googling would stop you from making erroneous statements. Citizens of other FSU countries can't just move to Russia permanently or even for long periods of time. The Ukrainians who crossed the border into Russia to escape the violence in Ukraine are only entitled to stay in Russia for 6 months (Google it).
So it seems even with as you say "a relatively new border" Russia has introduced new rules to make sure those from the FSU republics can't just move to Russia without following Russian rules.
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Ethnic Russians who have fled Ukraine to Russia are being offered Russian citizenship. There are extensive plans to disperse these refugees to reduce the burden on neighboring areas.
Simply watch Russian Channel 1 News...
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Visa free travel in the FSU is par for the course but you can't just up and move to say Moscow today and work legally and have a normal life, not even if you are an ethnic Russian.
Like anywhere in the world, your citizenship or residency status is an important factor in one's life.
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I have been married to a Russian woman for more than a decade. My family speaks Russian. That immersion means that I am far more attuned to the Russian viewpoint than most of the members hereI have also spent YEARS in Ukraine. My perspective is not based on the brayings of the media but from personal experience and a very wide group of personal friends.
The ethnic mix in Ukraine is unfortunate bur is a legacy of history. In Soviet times the Russian community was ascendant. After independence the Ukrainian community became dominant. Stoically these communities endured poverty together, there were differences but also consensus. The events in Maidan shattered that consensus and swept in a radical Ukrainian administration. This administration which is supported by the EU and the USA is quite simply UNACCEPTABLE to many ethnic Russians.
the USA and EU has chosen to back this radical Ukrainian administration . You justify this outrageous behaviour in terms of your own value system. Russia has decided to side with ITS OWN PEOPLE. By your insane value system this is wicked and causes you to state that my assertion that Russia has every right to support Russians is an asinine statement...
Ther is no reciprocity of thought in that statement. It demonstrates a total absence of understanding of the real stiuation...
The sanctions your President Obama has enacted are a "flea bite" Only Europe has the capacity to impose meaningful sanctions on Russia and put simply that is NOT going to happen. Europe's sanctions are currently at the "flea bite" level and they will not escalate because Russia can impose sanctions on Europe which would be equally destructive. Europe's leaders will not vote for mutual economic catastrophe, they are smarter than that.
This civil war has only just begun. I fear where it will end.
My bolded. That pretty much sums it up.
Those of us married to Ukrainians will tell you that they ABSOLUTELY do not want Russia interfering in their country and the find it COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE the way Russia is behaving.
And all this nonsence about siding with it's own people. THEY ARE NOT RUSSIAN CITIZENS BUT UKRAINIAN.
Russia is fast becoming a pariah state.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Except they're not locals, they aren't wanted by most of the locals, they have terrorized and extra judicially executed locals, and at least one of them just returned from "meetings" in Moscow, and admits to having FSB contacts.
Not exactly just a switch of passports. In this case, google was right. You are not.
Of all these locals that apparently despise Russia and its intervention, strange how so many of them have chosen to flee to Russia for safety (http://fox2now.com/2014/07/26/donetsk-residents-flee-fighting-russians-report-spike-in-ukrainian-refugees/) rather than western Ukraine.
Who flees to an 'invader' for safety? Answer: Nobody.
Manny please use a little common sense before you post. The Donetsk oblast has a population of about 4.5 million. If 20% of the population are pro-Russian that would mean over 1 million citizens of the Donetsk oblast are pro-Russian. However, according to your article '141,972 Ukrainians have fled to Russia this year because of unrest in eastern Ukraine'. That number probably includes citizens of other oblasts in Ukraine.
According to much of the international media the Ukrainian military is about to retake much of the pro-Russian areas of the Donetsk oblast. It's probably a good time for the friends and family of the pro-Russian separatists to be heading for the safety of Russia.
It's also probably true that many of the recent refugees in Russia are devout Ukrainians who fled to Russia simply because it was easier, quicker and safer than trying to flee to western Ukraine by travelling through a moving war zone.
The real answer will come in a few months to a year after the fighting ends when we find out how many of those refugees applied for asylum in Russia. If it's only a few hundred thousand then we can assume the true number of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine was small indeed.
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Those that vociferously publicly supported the separatists are traitors to their own State and they are better off leaving to go to Russia. In time they may well regret their choices in life but we all have to deal with the consequences of our actions. There are many ethnic Russians who will stay in their homes in eastern Ukraine and will be pleased to see peace and some semblance of normality return.
People forget that that ethnic identity in eastern Ukraine is actually layered and even changeable for many. A Russian nationalist won't have a place in Ukraine after this war is over, you can be certain of that.
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
That has got to be one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on this forum, and I've had the pleasure of reading some pretty asinine things here.
I could take that comment personally but in truth it says far more about you than me.
I lived in USA for almost 10 years in USA and I came to understand the almost universal xenophobia which afflicts most Americans. You make no effort to understand other cultures. Interpret everything by your own inane value system. You have an absolute belief that the whole world should be just like you. You believe this gives an inalienable right to impose your will around the world...
Your president has just asked congress for $500 million to arm and supply the ISIS forces. Strangely enough USA has spent the last decade fighting radical Islam but now recognizing that these guys have a chance of winning your foreign policy dictates that you try to buy favor with them :-[
You have NO RIGHT to interfere in this way but you do so on the unshakable belief that you are right...
I have been married to a Russian woman for more than a decade. My family speaks Russian. That immersion means that I am far more attuned to the Russian viewpoint than most of the members here. I have also spent YEARS in Ukraine. My perspective is not based on the brayings of the media but from personal experience and a very wide group of personal friends.
The ethnic mix in Ukraine is unfortunate bur is a legacy of history. In Soviet times the Russian community was ascendant. After independence the Ukrainian community became dominant. Stoically these communities endured poverty together, there were differences but also consensus. The events in Maidan shattered that consensus and swept in a radical Ukrainian administration. This administration which is supported by the EU and the USA is quite simply UNACCEPTABLE to many ethnic Russians.
the USA and EU has chosen to back this radical Ukrainian administration . You justify this outrageous behaviour in terms of your own value system. Russia has decided to side with ITS OWN PEOPLE. By your insane value system this is wicked and causes you to state that my assertion that Russia has every right to support Russians is an asinine statement...
Ther is no reciprocity of thought in that statement. It demonstrates a total absence of understanding of the real stiuation...
The sanctions your President Obama has enacted are a "flea bite" Only Europe has the capacity to impose meaningful sanctions on Russia and put simply that is NOT going to happen. Europe's sanctions are currently at the "flea bite" level and they will not escalate because Russia can impose sanctions on Europe which would be equally destructive. Europe's leaders will not vote for mutual economic catastrophe, they are smarter than that.
This civil war has only just begun. I fear where it will end.
Well then apparently I'm forced to "toot my own horn" inorder to counter your perception of me as an ignorant and close-minded American.
I just checked off my 30th country. English is my second language. I stay close to my Eastern European heritage and culture. In fact this week I'm visiting my friends and family in Hungary & Romania. I enjoy being exposed to other cultures and ethnicities, so I think you have me pegged for the wrong type of person.
You'll have to excuse me if I don't buy into your assertion that Russia had a right to invade Ukraine to protect ethnic Russians. What a horse$chit excuse to land grab. And no, I don't believe the U.S. would be justified in doing so if faced with the same situation.
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:popcorn:
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Manny perhaps a little more common sense and some Googling would stop you from making erroneous statements. Citizens of other FSU countries can't just move to Russia permanently or even for long periods of time. The Ukrainians who crossed the border into Russia to escape the violence in Ukraine are only entitled to stay in Russia for 6 months (Google it).
So it seems even with as you say "a relatively new border" Russia has introduced new rules to make sure those from the FSU republics can't just move to Russia without following Russian rules.
Again, more travelling and less Googling.
Visa free travel in the FSU is par for the course but you can't just up and move to say Moscow today and work legally and have a normal life, not even if you are an ethnic Russian.
Like anywhere in the world, your citizenship or residency status is an important factor in one's life.
Anyone with one Russian parent can get citizenship in a heartbeat (example: our daughter who was born in England has it). Citizens can come and go as they please. It may surprise you to know that many people in the FSU have a Russian parent. :chuckle:
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Ethnic Russians who have fled Ukraine to Russia are being offered Russian citizenship. There are extensive plans to disperse these refugees to reduce the burden on neighboring areas.
Simply watch Russian Channel 1 News...
If it isnt on Fox or CNN it isn't real. Everything else is propaganda in America. You know that. :coffeeread:
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The US government has just released satellite images they say proves that Russian artillery on Russian soil are shooting at Ukrainian military units in Ukraine.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/27/satellite-images-us-show-russian-rocket-fire-into-ukraine
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/27/russia-ukraine-satellite_n_5625253.html
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/27/335829570/u-s-satellite-images-show-russian-rockets-hitting-ukraine
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/07/27/russiaartillery-1d05ba2772a23608eb163d06fe7eca436e3de479-s40-c85.jpg)
(http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/359626/slide_359626_4013216_compressed.jpg)
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Pro Russian become true terrorist striking other parts of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war.
http://news.msn.com/world/mayor-of-central-ukrainian-city-shot-dead
Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
The German occupation of Czechoslovakia (1938–1945) began with the Nazi annexation of Czechoslovakia's northern and western border regions, known collectively as the Sudetenland, under terms outlined by the Munich Agreement. Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's pretext for this effort was the alleged privations suffered by the ethnic German population living in those regions. New and extensive Czechoslovak border fortifications were also located in the same area.
Following the Anschluss of Nazi Germany and Austria, in March 1938, the conquest of Czechoslovakia became Hitler's next ambition. The incorporation of the Sudetenland into Nazi Germany left the rest of Czechoslovakia weak and it became powerless to resist subsequent occupation. On 16 March 1939, the German Wehrmacht moved into the remainder of Czechoslovakia and, from Prague Castle, Hitler proclaimed Bohemia and Moravia the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The occupation ended with the surrender of Germany following World War II.[1]
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Russia has EVERY RIGHT to defend ethnic Russians in Ukraine. To think otherwise is perverse.
That has got to be one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on this forum, and I've had the pleasure of reading some pretty asinine things here.
So if a bunch of American citizens were being downtrodden and legislated against someplace by a junta government, we wouldn't expect the arrival of Uncle Sam? I kinda doubt that somehow. Although that would be dressed up as spreading democracy and fighting for freedom I expect.
Gotta love those left side double standards. :chuckle:
No. In that case Uncle Sam wouldn't have any right to invade said country. If those theoretical Americans felt so downtrodden and legislated against, then they could feel free to try to immigrate to another country or move back to the U.S. In no way would America have a legitimate excuse for invading that country just the same as Russia's INVASION of Crimea was inexcusable.
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The US government has just released satellite images they say proves that Russian artillery on Russian soil are shooting at Ukrainian military units in Ukraine.
Well, at least they have stopped getting them from Youtube. :chuckle:
However, usual swerve..........
The US on Sunday released satellite images it said backed up its claims that rockets have been fired from Russia into eastern Ukraine and heavy artillery for separatists has also crossed the border.
A four-page document released by the State Department seemed to show blast marks from where rockets were launched and craters where they landed.
"it said backed up" and "seemed to show" demonstrated by some blurry images of nothing, tell us, um, nothing. That is an opinion piece.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Manny perhaps a little more common sense and some Googling would stop you from making erroneous statements. Citizens of other FSU countries can't just move to Russia permanently or even for long periods of time. The Ukrainians who crossed the border into Russia to escape the violence in Ukraine are only entitled to stay in Russia for 6 months (Google it).
So it seems even with as you say "a relatively new border" Russia has introduced new rules to make sure those from the FSU republics can't just move to Russia without following Russian rules.
Again, more travelling and less Googling.
Visa free travel in the FSU is par for the course but you can't just up and move to say Moscow today and work legally and have a normal life, not even if you are an ethnic Russian.
Like anywhere in the world, your citizenship or residency status is an important factor in one's life.
Anyone with one Russian parent can get citizenship in a heartbeat (example: our daughter who was born in England has it). Citizens can come and go as they please. It may surprise you to know that many people in the FSU have a Russian parent. :chuckle:
I dated a Ukrainian girl and Kazakhstani girl, one was half Russian and the other, ethnic Russian on both sides and they both explained to me that it can be a complicated process these days (whilst in the past it was handed out relatively freely) and it also has ramifications for their existing citizenship (many States do not allow dual citizenship).
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The US government has just released satellite images they say proves that Russian artillery on Russian soil are shooting at Ukrainian military units in Ukraine.
Well, at least they have stopped getting them from Youtube. :chuckle:
However, usual swerve..........
The US on Sunday released satellite images it said backed up its claims that rockets have been fired from Russia into eastern Ukraine and heavy artillery for separatists has also crossed the border.
A four-page document released by the State Department seemed to show blast marks from where rockets were launched and craters where they landed.
"it said backed up" and "seemed to show" demonstrated by some blurry images of nothing, tell us, um, nothing. That is an opinion piece.
But of course :coffeeread:
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Also, having a parent born in the Russian Federation is not the same as having an ethnic Russian parent born in UA, KZ, [insert any FSU State].
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I dated a Ukrainian girl and Kazakhstani girl, one was half Russian and the other, ethnic Russian on both sides and they both explained to me that it can be a complicated process these days (whilst in the past it was handed out relatively freely) and it also has ramifications for their existing citizenship (many States do not allow dual citizenship).
Russia allows dual citizenship, and other countries do not know they have it as there is no surrender of old document or notification procedure.
The process is no harder than getting a visa. I have done it in the last couple of years for our daughter. Trust me, if you have a Russian parent, its automatic.
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Manny perhaps a little more common sense and some Googling would stop you from making erroneous statements. Citizens of other FSU countries can't just move to Russia permanently or even for long periods of time. The Ukrainians who crossed the border into Russia to escape the violence in Ukraine are only entitled to stay in Russia for 6 months (Google it).
So it seems even with as you say "a relatively new border" Russia has introduced new rules to make sure those from the FSU republics can't just move to Russia without following Russian rules.
Again, more travelling and less Googling.
Anyone with one Russian parent can get citizenship in a heartbeat (example: our daughter who was born in England has it). Citizens can come and go as they please. It may surprise you to know that many people in the FSU have a Russian parent. :chuckle:
No Russian citizenship then they have to wait in line. If there are so many people in the FSU with at least one Russian parent why are there so many illegal immigrants from the FSU in Russia? Many of the illegal immigrants in Russia are from the FSU.
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I dated a Ukrainian girl and Kazakhstani girl, one was half Russian and the other, ethnic Russian on both sides and they both explained to me that it can be a complicated process these days (whilst in the past it was handed out relatively freely) and it also has ramifications for their existing citizenship (many States do not allow dual citizenship).
Russia allows dual citizenship, and other countries do not know they have it as there is no surrender of old document or notification procedure.
The process is no harder than getting a visa. I have done it in the last couple of years for our daughter. Trust me, if you have a Russian parent, its automatic.
A lady I dated from KZ has spent 2 years trying to obtain her Russian citizenship. Both parents are ethnic Russians (with her grandparents actually born in the Russian Federation) and one actually already has Russian Federation citizenship. You have been around there enough times to understand what бюрократия is and the randomness and arbitrary nature of anything administrative there.
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No Russian citizenship then they have to wait in line. If there are so many people in the FSU with at least one Russian parent why are there so many illegal immigrants from the FSU in Russia? Many of the illegal immigrants in Russia are from the FSU.
You best do some more Googling. I told you before I wont do your research for you.
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I dated a Ukrainian girl and Kazakhstani girl, one was half Russian and the other, ethnic Russian on both sides and they both explained to me that it can be a complicated process these days (whilst in the past it was handed out relatively freely) and it also has ramifications for their existing citizenship (many States do not allow dual citizenship).
Russia allows dual citizenship, and other countries do not know they have it as there is no surrender of old document or notification procedure.
The process is no harder than getting a visa. I have done it in the last couple of years for our daughter. Trust me, if you have a Russian parent, its automatic.
A lady I dated from KZ has spent 2 years trying to obtain her Russian citizenship. Both parents are ethnic Russians (with her grandparents actually born in the Russian Federation) and one actually already has Russian Federation citizenship. You have been around there enough times to understand what бюрократия is and the randomness and arbitrary nature of anything administrative there.
What can I say? The бюрократия in London (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=11116.msg159575#msg159575) was less onerous.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-endorses-eased-citizenship-requirements/473010.html
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You are aware Westy, these are one and the same peoples? Nothing radically changes when you cross a relatively new border you know. The exact passport someone holds in these countries isn't as relevant as it is in your country. You find people with passports from Lithuania live in Latvia, many with Ukrainian passports live in Russia, etc. Russia having 143 million people, being the largest country in the world and being a neighbour to Ukraine, it stands to reason there will be many Russians in the border areas.
Too much Googling and not enough travelling fella.
Except they're not locals, they aren't wanted by most of the locals, they have terrorized and extra judicially executed locals, and at least one of them just returned from "meetings" in Moscow, and admits to having FSB contacts.
Not exactly just a switch of passports. In this case, google was right. You are not.
Of all these locals that apparently despise Russia and its intervention, strange how so many of them have chosen to flee to Russia for safety (http://fox2now.com/2014/07/26/donetsk-residents-flee-fighting-russians-report-spike-in-ukrainian-refugees/) rather than western Ukraine.
Who flees to an 'invader' for safety? Answer: Nobody.
Perhaps because the terrorists have blown up train tracks, bridges, and mined roads?
People will flee to what is closest in an area that will provide them safety.
There are more internally displaced persons within Ukraine than in Russia, approximately double. Many of those refugees are, in fact, in Western Ukraine.
Who flees to an invader for safety? You should ask all the DP's who moved West, rather than East, during WWII.
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I don't watch Fox or CNN. I am married to a man who is of mixed ancestry, but has more Russian blood than Ukrainian. I also speak the language and know a little more than most about the history. The fact is, there are radicals in this Ukrainian government, but the government is not radical. It is the same party that held the balance of power when Tymoshenko was PM, and no one was afraid of those "radicals" then. More Russian propaganda.
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Their for a few days it looks like Putin was going to let the pro russians lose, but the last few days everything changed with more troops on the borader and new weapons from Russia crossing the boarder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/fierce-battle-between-military-and-rebels-in-eastern-ukraine-halts-plane-investigation/2014/07/27/b695809c-1582-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html
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Russia allows dual citizenship, and other countries do not know they have it as there is no surrender of old document or notification procedure.
Yes but there can be legal ramifications for taking out a foreign citizenship in contravention of the law of the country which does not allow dual citizenship. In Australia, you could be (in theory) stripped of your Australian citizenship as Australia only allows this with States it has a bilateral agreement with. I know this because I have dual citizenship from a European State and I only applied for this after carefully looking at the possible impacts on my primary and birth citizenship which is Australian.
I know that both UA and KZ do not permit dual citizenship.
Citizenships are not stamps to be collected. They come with rights and obligations (sometimes conflicting) and everyone has to carefully assess the pros and cons and potential legal ramifications, current and future.
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The German occupation of Czechoslovakia (1938–1945) began with the Nazi annexation of Czechoslovakia's northern and western border regions, known collectively as the Sudetenland, under terms outlined by the Munich Agreement. Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's pretext for this effort was the alleged privations suffered by the ethnic German population living in those regions. New and extensive Czechoslovak border fortifications were also located in the same area.
Following the Anschluss of Nazi Germany and Austria, in March 1938, the conquest of Czechoslovakia became Hitler's next ambition. The incorporation of the Sudetenland into Nazi Germany left the rest of Czechoslovakia weak and it became powerless to resist subsequent occupation. On 16 March 1939, the German Wehrmacht moved into the remainder of Czechoslovakia and, from Prague Castle, Hitler proclaimed Bohemia and Moravia the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The occupation ended with the surrender of Germany following World War II.[1]
The above quote copied from wikipedia without citation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia
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One Russian's opinion of Russia.
http://skibinsky.com/no-russian/
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http://www.businessinsider.com/r-disenchanted-with-putin-some-russians-vote-with-their-feet-2014-24
Reuters is not a hot bed of pro USA propaganda ... $75 Billion in capital flight from RU this year alone having an impact on their economy...
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One Russian's opinion of Russia.
http://skibinsky.com/no-russian/
Good read. I particularly liked the part about Ukraine:
Ukrainian Valor
The differences between “Ukrainian” and “Russian” people are cosmetic. The distance between Kiev and Moscow is about same as Sacramento to San Diego. Even today, after all that happened, the most likely language you will hear on the streets of Kiev is Russian. So why Kremlin was so enraged about recent Ukrainian revolution? After all Ukraine has no natural gas or oil, there were no riches to divide, what was the fuss all about?
What happened is that first time in history, large group of ethnic “Russians” had overthrown a mafia clan in a popular uprising. Until then, Ukraine was a satellite state, and exactly because it had no natural oil and gas, much larger portion of the population had to develop “creative class” skills rather than going to work for oil company or police enforcement. Then suddenly this social group had enough heft and popular power to overthrow local mafia don.
You can imagine the amount of terror it produced in the gang occupying Kremlin right now. If was and still is an extensional threat to them, hence they pulled out all the stops to overthrow or destabilize a new government in Kiev, and at the same time whip out xenophobic mass-hysteria in a local population.
At this moment, Kremlin can not really stop. If Kiev government survives, it will fairly quickly unlock economic benefits of non-mafia, free economy. The large parasitic class living by bribes and extortion will be displaced: it will have the same effect as if base tax rate would suddenly drop by a double digit percentage. Next door, progressive Russians would quickly notice and spread information about growing prosperity and opportunity in a city next door. What was half million Euro-leaning progressives, would become a million, then few million: before long you can picture a Gaddafi-style demise for the Kremlin gang.
Kremlin is fighting for its own survival: supplying weapon system and military crew to a roaming criminal gangs is nothing for them in big scheme of things.
What he says about most of the 1% living outside of Russia seems true. Even I've heard Russian in Europe. It's easy to hear in London and Paris. Even among the working class in Europe you can hear Russian being spoken.
I think he's wrong about Ukraine not having natural gas and oil. I've seen maps that say there are deposits in eastern Ukraine. Don't know if they're still active. Perhaps they dried up?
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One Russian's opinion of Russia.
http://skibinsky.com/no-russian/
An interesting article, thanks for posting it.
According to Rosstat's own figures some 309,133 people emigrated from Russia in 2012 and 2013, more than four times as many as who left in 2010 and 2011 (70,322 people). The majority of those went to CIS countries (I'm not sure if Rosstat includes Ukraine as a CIS country for the purposes of population movement) which may well represent migrant workers from former Soviet republics returning home for a variety of reasons. However a significant number moved to non-CIS countries and anecdotal evidence suggests that this section includes a lot of people whose views differ fundamentally from those of the government and the direction in which Russia is seemingly moving.
One of the problems of course is that the more people with progressive views or liberal beliefs leave, the less people there are left behind with a desire to challenge the status quo and question the government. Since the 2011 protests - and prior to that, although it has accelerated significantly since then - and the subsequent crackdown on opposition groups and public demonstrations there has been something of a "brain drain" within the middle classes, in particular from intellectuals and entrepreneurs.
It's estimated that some 68 percent of the middle class are now employed by the state which of course gives the government a considerable power base as they have a vested interest in toeing the party line.
But this is slightly off-topic for this thread.
What is relevant to this thread is Max Skibinskiy's question about what the progressive Russian population will make of a free and successful Ukraine. But as they dwindle in number and the state continues to crack down on free speech they may well find it increasingly difficult to make their voices heard. As we've seen here, and I'm the first to admit that this isn't a perfectly-balanced microcosm of society, anyone who dares to question the Russian government's position is accused of being anti-Russian or unpatriotic.
Sources:
http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosstat_main/rosstat/en/figures/population/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/russia-putin-emigration-idUSL6N0PI4TH20140724
http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/
http://rbth.com/society/2014/06/19/why_russias_middle_class_is_like_no_other_according_to_some_37561.html
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What is relevant to this thread is Max Skibinskiy's question about what the progressive Russian population will make of a free and successful Ukraine.
Good question and purely hypothetical. Unfortunately very few if any of the progressive population will be alive to see it happen.
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Very hypothetical, and yes it could be a long time coming as things stand.
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Looks like Putin has even more to deal with. Interesting to see where this goes.http://www.mail.com/int/news/uk/3009578-russia-ordered-to-pay-50-billion-yukos.html#.1258-stage-hero1-12
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Some time ago on the forum I outlined some of Putin & Russia's potential issues that would be a result of Putin's stupidity in invading Ukraine -first on the Crimea and now on the mainland.
Funnily enough it was the collective '"old" forum phaffers and the Putin apologists who attacked and attempted to ridicule my forecasts of the demise of Putin himself and the danger of creating an economic collapse in Russia-- and perhaps a break up of Russia as we have known it.
The more Putin has attempted to escalate the situation in Ukraine-the faster his critics have been growing.Ukraine is now seen as a world problem-- and Russia as the promoter of many deaths and tremendous infrastructure destruction in Ukraine.
I seem to recall the mocking here when I insisted Ukrainians would fight-- and they are !!
The following posts and links all relate to my comments here.
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The Russians believe that they have a mission to free the world from fascism. Reuters Ilya Ponomarev, a deputy of the Russian State Duma only one who voted against the Crimea to Russia, confident that the ship "Malaysian Airlines" militia shot down. "They were able to capture the missile system in warehouses Ukrainian army, or it could smuggle across the border with Russia. I admit that among the militias are professionals who can manage such complex - said in an interview with the deputy German newspaper Die Welt - however, they are more likely to get shot down "Boeing" error. Nobody in their right mind would shoot down a civilian airliner. " After the incident with the Malaysian "Boeing" Putin made tremendous pressure worldwide. However, Ponomarev said that "Putin will continue to inflame the situation: he never turns back. A aggravation caused beaten liner only increases the likelihood that Russia will send to Ukraine so-called peacekeepers." "His confrontational course Putin wants to distract people from his defeat in Kiev, where he failed to keep Yanukovych to the presidency - still a politician. - Support for Putin in Russia depends primarily on its public image invincible." "The authorities simply be moved to Putin under their feet as soon as the Russians feel that their president can get something done - emphasizes Ponomariov. - So the Crimea to Russia - is not nothing but a show of force inside." Read more: Lawyers are preparing an international multi-million dollar lawsuit against Putin because of downed Boeing 777 As for the events in Eastern Ukraine, they are, according to Ponomarev, "is a continuation of what happened in the Crimea." "Most likely, Putin hoped that the oligarchs will do everything for him, and he does not contaminate the hands. Ukraine to the east but things went differently, partly because the region is less pro-Russian than the Crimea." As a result, Russian nationalists have become quite influential variables, however, one drawback in terms of Putin - they do not support him or the Kremlin and therefore not amenable to control. "Putin is only just beginning to understand that in eastern Ukraine, he gave the gun not the people." "For example, I've heard from their sources that received orders from the Kremlin will not send weapons militias, - says deputy. - However, in full military who feel obligated to help the rebels - that they can continue to supply them arms ". Read more: Polish newspaper portrayed the vampire and Putin called it "Bladimir" EU sanctions counterproductive, at least at present, says Ponomarev. He advises Europeans to urgently develop a strategy that will put an end to dependence on Russian energy. "The problem with Russians is that they believe that they have a mission - said Ponomarev. - No matter how absurd it may sound to Western ears, they learned this promotion and are now eager to free their Ukrainian brothers in Kiev and the rest of the world from fascism ". Read more: Radicals push Putin to invade Ukraine - Süddeutsche Zeitung First of all, "this idea inspires feelings of power for low-income and uneducated segments of society." "And those Russians who are educated enough or too liberal ideas, committed to this form of brainwashing, the Kremlin did not send to the Gulag - they run out of desperation abroad."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/putin-rozumiye-scho-dav-zbroyu-ne-tim-lyudyam-deputat-derzhdumi-361182.html
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Entourage Russian President divided into those who want to further attack on Ukraine, and those who believe that already.
UNIAN The Kremlin began a fierce struggle for influence on Putin Surroundings of Vladimir Putin in the Kremlin was divided into two camps, which are interconnected tough fight for influence over the president of Russia. According to Der Spiegel , said the Chairman of the Federal Intelligence Service of Germany Gerhard Schindler at the meeting of the Bundestag Committee on Foreign Affairs. After that, he also reported this to the Federal Chancellor of Germany. At the beginning of the conflict in Western Ukraine intelligence agencies doubted that the political power in the Kremlin split. For now the German intelligence saying that the Kremlin hawks try to force Putin to revive offensive Ukraine. At the same time another unit realizes that Russia's economy is very dependent on the West. So try to convince the president to begin the process of de-escalation. "In the near future a number of Russian oligarchs, which relate to the EU sanctions may make demands of political and economic slow down and try to Putin" - according to German intelligence agents. Saturday Night at the EU decided to introduce a third package of tough sanctions against Russia. At the same time, Vice Chancellor and Economy Minister German Zihmar Gabriel offers this week to freeze the accounts and assets of Russian oligarchs in the European Union. Read more: British MPs want to punish Cameron oligarchs Putin - The Times "Russian politician stands on the shoulders of the oligarchs" - said vice-chancellor.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/v-kremli-pochalasya-zhorstka-borotba-za-vpliv-na-putina-rozvidka-nimechchini-360868.html
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A senior military said the Kremlin in 1939, also explained that protects the "Ukrainian brothers" in Poland.
Reuters General of the United States compared the actions of Putin in Ukraine of Stalin's invasion of Poland Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, U.S. Martin Dempsey compared the aggression of Russia against Ukraine with the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939. According to The Daily Beast , the U.S. military has responded well to the statement of the U.S. government that the Russian army firing eastern Ukraine with artillery. According to General Dempsey, currently between Ukraine and Russia is a dangerous escalation of the conflict and now on the Donbas becoming a global problem. "It really changes the situation. We have the Russian government, which has taken a conscious decision to use military force in other sovereign countries to achieve their goals. This is the first time since 1939 or something like that, when the situation is so" - said the American general . He added that Russia now threatens not only the Ukraine and Eastern Europe and Western Europe and the United States. According to Dempsey, Putin is trying to reshape Europe after the collapse of the USSR. "He is trying to achieve this goal, it has a set of techniques that are two to three times brought him success, and he will continue", - said the general. He added that the West gave Putin a chance to take the path of de-escalation, but he began to move in the opposite direction. Read more: Time Magazine put Putin on the cover under the title of the defeat of the West "Joseph Stalin used similar rhetoric and excuses when in 1939 invaded Poland." Soviet government can not remain indifferent to the fact that the fraternal Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples living on Polish territory adrift, now remained defenseless "- quoted Dempsey note to the Soviet Foreign Ministry, Ambassador of Poland to Moscow.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/general-ssha-porivnyav-diyi-putina-v-ukrayini-z-vtorgnennyam-stalina-v-polschu-daily-beast-360628.html
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The militants are trying to reduce the resistance of local residents. facebook.com / Alex Kovalevskiy Terrorists have used tactics of "scorched earth" In Donbass terrorists trying to use fascist tactics "scorched earth." The press-service of staff ATO. "The successful promotion ATO forces causing panic in the terrorists. Realizing that lose, they try to use fascist tactics" scorched earth "and terror against the civilian population in order to reduce the resistance of local residents," - said in a statement staff. In addition, terrorists attempt to make regroup to avoid encirclement by the ATO near Pervomayska, Stakhanov, Lugansk and Alchevsk. Read more: Militants attack power ATO with "city" and tanks to reclaim the position "Some groups are trying to keep under control marginal areas STU to obtain unrestricted revenues military equipment, arms and ammunition from the territory of the Russian Federation", - added the press center of the ATO.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/na-donbasi-teroristi-zastosovuyut-fashistsku-taktiku-vipalenoyi-zemli-shtab-ato-361177.html
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It is totally beyond my comprehension how those on the forum seek to justify and rationalise Putins policies and actions-- trotting out the Kremlin line of any criticism as being anti-Russian ( recognise anyone here !!)
If you really had any respect for Russia you would be critical of Putin-- not excusing him !! In case you missed it-- speaking against Putin in Russia is a difficult and dangerous pursuit-- maybe some of you missed that?
To repeat my earlier comments--Putin's attempt to recreate the USSR is not only a failure--but will lead to his own premature demise-- and huge economic problems for Russia and Russians.
And to cap that off-- all totally unnecessary.
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Experts say that only Russian banks will need to support the $ 80 billion that the West refused to invest. In Russia felt how much cost new sanctions from the EU and the U.S. Only to support the banking system over the next two years, Russia need to find $ 80 billion if the West completely stop investing in the Russian economy. According to the BBC Russian , such conclusion experts of the Higher School of Economics in its bulletin of the state and business. It is projected that only before the end of 2014 state companies need to raise about 43 billion dollars. And in 2015, they need 48 billion more to support due to lack of foreign investment. Thus, this amount could grow to $ 90 billion if the West puts a ban on lending. "This is a very serious burden on the foreign exchange reserves of Russia, especially considering the earlier decision Hague Court in the case of Yukos, the cost of which amounted to $ 50 billion," - experts say. Read more: EU expanded sanktsiynyy list and adopted restrictive measures in relation to Crimean Recall that in Russia sanctions may be left without special equipment for oil and gas.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/groshi/v-rosiyi-porahuvali-v-yaku-sumu-obiydutsya-novi-sankciyi-vid-yes-i-ssha-361053.html
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And still more to come! :)
U.S. Secretary of State announced the "additional measures" that will affect the economy of the Russian Federation.
Kerry promises Russians tangible sanctions The situation in Ukraine has gone too far, and it did not pass without consequences for Russia . So says U.S. Secretary of State, John Kerry, according to a story TSN.19 30 . He said that if Russia does not want to reduce stress, you will feel the pressure of the U.S. and Europe. According to Kerry, separatists in eastern Ukraine lay down their arms, just lose Russian support. For now, Americans are developing new sanctions against the Kremlin. However, the choice is left for Putin - and ultimately affect the separatists, or get into international isolation. "We, together with our European partners will take additional measures and impose broad sanctions on key sectors of the Russian economy. We hope that this will not have the need. Nevertheless, if Russia will continue coming in the selected way - do not leave the international community no choice" - said Kerry.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/rosiya-ne-zalishaye-svitovi-inshogo-viboru-krim-shirokih-sankciy-kerri-361147.html
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Special Report: Where Ukraine's separatists get their weapons
BY THOMAS GROVE AND WARREN STROBEL
DONETSK Ukraine Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:46am EDT
(Reuters) - On the last day of May, a surface-to-air rocket was signed out of a military base near Moscow where it had been stored for more than 20 years.
According to the ornate Cyrillic handwriting in the weapon's Russian Defence Ministry logbook, seen by Reuters, the portable rocket, for use with an Igla rocket launcher, was destined for a base in Rostov, some 50 km (31 miles) from the Ukrainian border. In that area, say U.S. officials, lies a camp for training Ukrainian separatist fighters.
Three weeks later the rocket and its logbook turned up in eastern Ukraine, where government troops seized them from pro-Russian separatists.
The logbook, which is more than 20 pages long, records that rocket 03181 entered service on May 21, 1993, and had regular tests as recently as 2005 to make sure it was in fighting form. The seal of the Russian Defence Ministry has been stamped over the signature sending the weapon to Rostov.
A copy of the log was passed to a diplomat in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev. Reuters was unable to verify its authenticity with the Russian military, and Moscow has consistently denied arming the separatists in eastern Ukraine.
The Igla and its logbook are just one indication that weapons are flowing from Russia into Ukraine. Interviews with American officials, diplomats in Kiev, and Russian military analysts paint a picture of a steady and ongoing flow. These people say weapons – from small arms to armored personnel carriers, tanks and sophisticated missile systems – have flooded into the region since May, fueling the violence.
In an interview with Reuters last week, a separatist leader said that Russia may have supplied the separatists with BUK rockets, which were used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. The destruction of the civilian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine on July 17 killed nearly 300 people.
Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, told Reuters: "I knew that a BUK came from Lugansk (in east Ukraine) ... I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy (of MH17) had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence."
Three U.S. government officials said the weapons flow from Russia increased dramatically several weeks ago in response to successes by Ukrainian government forces, including the recapture of Slaviansk, a separatist stronghold in eastern Ukraine. The new shipments included anti-aircraft systems designed to combat Ukraine’s air power, those officials said.
“If you trace the increase in supplies and materials ... we’ve seen in the last few weeks culminating in this tragic incident, it’s clearly in the face of successes by the Ukrainian forces," said a senior U.S. official, who like the others spoke on condition of anonymity.
Moscow, which has said it is willing to cooperate with an international investigation into the loss of MH17, has denied sending any BUK missiles to the rebels. It has said Washington is attempting to destabilize Russia through events in Ukraine.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said this week that Moscow was hopeful that monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe could be deployed along Russia's border with Ukraine to dispel suspicions that Russia is aiding the rebels.
"We hope that this will dispel suspicions that are regularly being voiced against us, that those (border) checkpoints controlled by the militias from the Ukrainian side are used for massive troops and weaponry deployment from Russia to Ukraine," he said.
Pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine maintain most of their weapons have come from captured Ukrainian armories or have been seized directly from the Ukrainian military on the battlefield.
BORDER SKIRMISHES
In the weeks following Russia's annexation of Crimea in March, tensions grew on the south and east frontiers of Ukraine. Kiev's border guard agency said it stopped thousands of Russian citizens who tried to enter Ukrainian territory carrying weapons or bags full of camouflage.
Separatists started firing on border guard positions, according to Ukrainian officials. On May 29, the Stanychno-Luganske border guard division in Ukraine's Lugansk province was attacked by 300 gunmen with small arms and grenade launchers. Rebels seized control of the facility after five days of fighting. Other border guard divisions and checkpoints along Ukraine’s more than 2,000-km border with Russia also fell.
Separatists were able to ferry in people and equipment almost unhindered.
That led to more ambitious attacks on Ukrainian targets. On June 14, for instance, separatists shot down a Ukrainian IL-76 military transport jet coming in to land near the eastern city of Lugansk. All 49 people on board died; charred pieces of the fuselage and engines littered the rolling wheat fields outside the village of Novohannivka.
The weapon used that day, according to separatists who later spoke about the attack, was an Igla rocket launcher, sometimes known generically as a MANPAD, for man-portable air-defence system.
The origin of the weapon remains unclear: There is no evidence this was connected to the Igla rocket seized by Ukrainian forces a week later along with its log book. Iglas were used extensively in Afghanistan, Chechnya and Bosnia in the 1990s and are easy to transport and common in eastern Ukraine. Videos, posted online after Ukrainian troops drove separatists out of Slaviansk on July 7, show boxes marked 9M39 – the model of missile used with an Igla – stacked in the basement of the mayor’s office.
The day after the IL-76 was shot down, Valery Bolotov, top commander of the Lugansk People's Republic, claimed responsibility. “I can't tell you anything more detailed on the IL-76, but I will repeat that the IL-76 was hit by our militia, the air defense forces of the Lugansk People's Republic," Bolotov, who wore a camouflage T-shirt, said in a video posted on YouTube.
The commander said that separatists in Lugansk controlled nearly 80 km of the border from Dolzhanksy to Izvaryna at that time, but denied getting weapons from Moscow, saying they had been pillaged from Ukrainian army and police store rooms.
A separatist officer in Slaviansk who used the nom de guerre Anton also said the Igla in the IL-76 attack was not Russian but a weapon seized from Ukrainians. He declined to say whether the separatists received other weapons from Russia.
Alexander Gureyev, a Russia supporter from Lugansk, told Reuters last week that all the separatists’ weapons had been found in local arms warehouses.
"We had to boost our arsenal,” he said. “If you have small-caliber weapons and they're shooting at you with Howitzers - that's not right. But now they're getting it from us with Howitzers, mortars, tanks. It’s given them something to think about.”
He declined to detail the origin of heavy weapons, but said separatists were “thrilled” when the IL-76 was shot down. “It was like a holiday in the city. People thought things would change and that with such a success people would stop dying in this conflict.”
He said the Lugansk rebels had decided to station anti-aircraft sharpshooters at the nearby airfield in retribution for the deaths of at least eight people in what he called a Ukrainian airstrike on the rebels’ headquarters in Lugansk.
"They simply flew above us, we were already fed up with it all and decided that we would start shooting at everything,” he said. “We simply took anything out of the sky that flew above us."
“RUSSIAN BONEYARDS”
Not everyone believes the separatists’ assertions that their weapons had been seized from Ukrainian troops.
A diplomat said that arms had started to come in from Russia regularly around the time of the independence vote in Crimea in May. In the past couple of weeks an increasing amount of materiel had arrived “in reaction to the collapse of Slaviansk,” he said. That included T64 tanks from stocks of old weapons discarded after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Anton Lavrov, an independent Russian military analyst said: “It would be stupid to deny that Russia supports the separatists. The main question is only the scale of this support.”
He said pro-Russian separatists have been found in possession of a Kamaz Mustang military transport vehicle that is not used in Ukraine and cannot be bought there. Reuters could not independently verify that.
“There was a serious escalation in the middle of June, when heavy weapons began to appear among the separatists, including tanks and artillery in such quantities that it would be hard to attribute it to seizures from Ukrainian stockpiles."
Another independent Russian military analyst, Alexander Golts, also said the rebels had received arms from Russia. He described it as “all old Soviet weaponry.” He said rocket launchers were spotted in April or the beginning of May very early in the conflict.
Washington is in no doubt Russia is the source of many of the weapons. At least 20 tanks and armored personnel carriers have crossed the border from Russia since the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17, a senior U.S. intelligence official said.
In a media briefing on July 22, U.S. intelligence officials also released satellite photographs of what they said was a training site for Ukrainian separatists near the Russian city of Rostov. The photographs appear to show increased activity at the site between June 19 and July 21.
A Moscovite volunteer called Valery Kolotsei, 37, said he joined the rebels in Ukraine’s Lugansk region for a few weeks in May and June. He said he had connected with other volunteers over Vkontakte, Russia’s version of Facebook. They had gathered, he said, in the Rostov region, where U.S. officials say a camp for training Ukrainian separatist fighters sits.
Kolotsei said the rebel group he joined used a motley array of weapons, including a mortar produced in 1944.
“OUT OF CONTROL”
Before the MH17 incident, U.S. spy agencies issued multiple warnings that Russia was shipping heavy weaponry, including rockets, to Ukrainian separatists, U.S. security officials said.
The officials said that before MH-17 went down, the United States had become aware separatists possessed SA-11 BUK missiles, but believed they were all inoperable. Officials acknowledged, too, that U.S. intelligence agencies do not know who fired the missile or when and how separatists may have obtained it.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has firmly denied his country had any involvement in the fate of MH17. Putin and the separatists blamed Ukraine for the disaster, with some suggesting a Ukrainian missile team brought down the passenger aircraft.
Ukraine rejects such claims. Vladyslav Seleznyov, a spokesman for Ukraine’s military operations in eastern Ukraine, said: “The Ukrainian army has portable missile systems of the Igla and Osa type and the complex BUK. However, they are not used in this campaign because there is no need for them.” The rebels have no aircraft, he said.
Despite the MH17 tragedy, the conflict shows little sign of diminishing. Another U.S. official said: "There are indications that some groups feel betrayed by Moscow not doing enough. Others don’t like the way this is headed.” He said some rebels fear the fighting has "gotten out of control."
Olexander Motsyk, Ukraine’s ambassador to the United States, told Reuters in an interview that his country has evidence Russia is preparing to supply separatist rebels with a powerful new multiple-rocket system known as the Tornado. According to military websites, the system first saw service earlier this decade and is an improvement on Russia’s older Grad missile launcher.
The evidence for this, Motsyk said, includes satellite photographs as well as intercepts of telephone conversations. He declined to be more specific.
Referring to the flow of weapons from Russia into eastern Ukraine, he said: “Nothing has changed after the downing of the civilian airliner.”
(Grove reported from Donetsk, Strobel from Washington; Additional reporting by Mark Hosenball, Jason Szep, Matt Spetalnick and Phillip Stewart in Washington, Elizabeth Piper in Kiev, Alissa de Carbonnel in Moscow, and Maria Tsvetkova, Anton Zverev and Peter Graff in Donetsk; Editing by Simon Robinson and Richard Woods)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/29/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-specialreport-idUSKBN0FY0UA20140729
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Russia has massive potential regarding natural resources, for whatever reason it's not fully exploited.
It's because of the corruption. Somebody must come up with an investment to mine the
resources. Of course they have to make a few payoffs to get a permit to do so. Then when
the resource starts getting developed, some officials decide that they want to take over.
Nobody is stupid enough to invest in such a corrupt environment. So until they get corruption
under control there will be near zero outside investment. With high oil prices the Russian
economy has been humming along and the corruption has been ignored.
If they shut down the corruption then money would roll in on rail road cars.
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“I was pro-Russia, but I changed in one day,” says one young native of Donetsk who asked not to be named. She studied in Moscow and describes a natural, brotherly feeling that prevailed for decades between eastern Ukrainians and Russia.
But two events in Donetsk changed her mind, because of how they were misrepresented on Russian television. In one case, she was in Moscow and shocked to see Russian state TV report that all residents of Donetsk marched on the streets with Russian flags, supporting Russian intervention to “protect” them. She knew it was not true.
And in mid-March in Donetsk she witnessed pro-Russian activists attack a small protest against Russian interference with knives and clubs, killing one. Russian channels reported the event “upside down,” she says, and claimed that it was a “peaceful” pro-Russian crowd that was attacked.
After that, she says, she “understood that they are manipulating us.” The result shattered her faith in Russia and its narrative, she says. “It’s like someone very close to you – like your husband – does something terrible to you.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/eastern-ukrainians-growing-doubt-russia-manipulating-us-155000842.html
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It is totally beyond my c--c--comprehension...
We know. As an alternative to mindlessly c--c--cutting and pasting, you should c--c--consider posting some c--c--comments that suggest that you c--c--comprehended the c--c--content of the links that you posted.
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In few words...
hohlyatsky journalist on tv:
"Donbas has 1.5 million extra people who just need to be killed".
After this try to change my mind that there is no fascism there.
http://www.youtube.com//v/J2vBdyszP5M#t=31
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“I was pro-Russia, but I changed in one day,” says one young native of Donetsk who asked not to be named. She studied in Moscow and describes a natural, brotherly feeling that prevailed for decades between eastern Ukrainians and Russia.
But two events in Donetsk changed her mind, because of how they were misrepresented on Russian television. In one case, she was in Moscow and shocked to see Russian state TV report that all residents of Donetsk marched on the streets with Russian flags, supporting Russian intervention to “protect” them. She knew it was not true.
And in mid-March in Donetsk she witnessed pro-Russian activists attack a small protest against Russian interference with knives and clubs, killing one. Russian channels reported the event “upside down,” she says, and claimed that it was a “peaceful” pro-Russian crowd that was attacked.
After that, she says, she “understood that they are manipulating us.” The result shattered her faith in Russia and its narrative, she says. “It’s like someone very close to you – like your husband – does something terrible to you.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/eastern-ukrainians-growing-doubt-russia-manipulating-us-155000842.html
Interesting insights and confirms my suspicions about this whole artificially manufactured mess.
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On July 24, 14 bodies were exhumed from a burial site in Sloviansk. The victims were civilians, all of whom are believed to have been killed by pro-Russia separatists when they were occupying the area. According to Ukrainian officials, there are roughly 300 people missing in Sloviansk, and mass and individual graves are consistently being found.
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-63
This is going to be the video but it is not posted yet.
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In few words...
hohlyatsky journalist on tv:
"Donbas has 1.5 million extra people who just need to be killed".
After this try to change my mind that there is no fascism there.
http://www.youtube.com//v/J2vBdyszP5M#t=31
Russian people will never support the flowering of Ukrainian fascism!
Lugansk 24 Bombardment "Hursing home." in Lugansk (18 +). July 28, 2014
Destruction of the civilian population has become the cornerstone of Ukrainian strategy...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bt6mSClIQAAgXji.jpg:large)
What did this mother & baby ever do to Kiev?
Russian people in any form, will not accept Ukrainian fascism because we remember the Great Patriotic War. Each family was visited by tragedy.
Official data on the losses in the Great Patriotic War.
ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Потери_в_Великой_Отечественной_войне (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Потери_в_Великой_Отечественной_войне)
Please, take the "West ": EU and America, Ukrainian fascists at home.
(http://universe-tss.su/uploads/posts/2014-02/1392561094_ukr-fascists-1.jpg)
(http://www.hellasforce.com/ru/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2014/05/1301-620x412.jpg)
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Stop looking at Russian news and write people who are there. It just is not happening.
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After this try to change my mind that there is no fascism there.
Well maybe you need to visit western Russia. I was there for only two weeks, and saw enough fascism on walls and buildings to realise Russia is the country with the problem. Most I ever saw in Ukraine was the odd ,' No NATO' sign. (Yes it was years ago)
Besides it being fairly disturbing seeing Nazi swastikas painted everywhere in the three cities I visited, was that no one cared to cover the hate up. Even more bewildering to me was that after only sixty odd years, it seems the locals are fine walking past this shit.
Here's a 'swell greeting' I had upon entry into my apartment in one of the cities.
[attach=1]
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Stop looking at Russian news and write people who are there. It just is not happening.
For more than half a million refugees in Russia. It witnesses against military monitoring Kiev. War crimes have no statute of limitations. In accordance with
CONVENTION
The Genocide
And Punishment of the
December 9, 1948.
www.memo.ru/prawo/race/481209.htm (http://www.memo.ru/prawo/race/481209.htm)
The process has already started. Interpol publicizes internationally wanted leader of the "right sector" Dmitry Yarosh. :thumbsup:
(http://i.lb.ua/042/03/53d24ba665b7d.jpeg)
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Have many more than that in Ukraine. How many of these people have you talk to personally???? I write girls in these cities. More thatn 75 per cent Ethnic Russian do not want Pro Russian but want Ukraine. Do you think they want Ukraine because Ukraine is killing them???
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How many of these people have you talk to personally???? I write girls in these cities. More thatn 75 per cent Ethnic Russian do not want Pro Russian but want Ukraine. Do you think they want Ukraine because Ukraine is killing them???
Ask them where they will run, when ukraine'll start to kill them.
And don't cry crocodile tears here, the girls writer. Better transfer money to help refugees from ukrainian junta.
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Stop looking at Russian news and write people who are there. It just is not happening.
Yes, watch American news instead. Anybody want a cookie?
[attachimg=1]
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The process has already started. Interpol publicizes internationally wanted leader of the "right sector" Dmitry Yarosh. :thumbsup:
He is on Interpol's list because Russia issued a "red notice" request and Interpol is obliged to publish requests from member states (of which Russia is one).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10764072/Interpols-dilemma-over-Russian-red-notice-request-for-Right-Sektor-leader.html
For the record I dislike Right Sector and what they stand for intensely. However it's important to look at the facts behind a case and not use this piece of information as some kind of international endorsement of Russia's attitude towards Ukraine.
Yarosh's inclusion on the list is due to a VKontakte post on the Right Sector page asking Doku Umarov to help "Ukraine" in the fight against Russia. Which is something that Right Sector deny doing.
http://rt.com/news/yarosh-destroy-russia-pipelines-186/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/495535.html
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The process has already started. Interpol publicizes internationally wanted leader of the "right sector" Dmitry Yarosh. :thumbsup:
He is on Interpol's list because Russia issued a "red notice" request and Interpol is obliged to publish requests from member states (of which Russia is one).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10764072/Interpols-dilemma-over-Russian-red-notice-request-for-Right-Sektor-leader.html
For the record I dislike Right Sector and what they stand for intensely. However it's important to look at the facts behind a case and not use this piece of information as some kind of international endorsement of Russia's attitude towards Ukraine.
Yarosh's inclusion on the list is due to a VKontakte post on the Right Sector page asking Doku Umarov to help "Ukraine" in the fight against Russia. Which is something that Right Sector deny doing.
http://rt.com/news/yarosh-destroy-russia-pipelines-186/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/495535.html
Please links:
March 14 Main Investigation Department of the Investigative Committee of the North Caucasus Federal District, criminal proceedings were instituted against Yarosh, Oleg Tyagniboka (leader of the "Freedom") and other members of the organization "Ukrainian National Assembly - Ukrainian People's Self-Defense" (UNA-UNSO) for participation fighting in Chechnya on the side of the terrorist leaders Shamil Basayev and Khattab. Defendants in the criminal case are suspected of committing crimes under Part. 1 and h. 2 tbsp. 209 of the Criminal Code (the creation of a stable armed group to attack on the citizens, the leadership of such a group and participated in attacks committed by it).
The investigation combined into one case of criminal cases entrusted to the main investigation department of the Investigative Committee of the North Caucasus Federal District.
itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1341949 (http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1341949)
The leader of the Ukrainian fascist organization "Right sector" Dmitry Jaros international wanted list through Interpol. The announcement posted on the site of an international organization.
http://www.interpol.int/notice/search/wanted/2014-16549 (http://www.interpol.int/notice/search/wanted/2014-16549)
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Yarosh is not on Interpol's list for allegedly participating in fighting in Chechnya. He is on the list accused of committing a crime related to part 2 of article 205.2 and part 2 of article 280 of the Criminal Code (public calls for terrorist and extremist activities conducted through the media), i.e. the post on the Vkontakte page.
Charges:
1) Public incitement to terrorist activities involving the use of mass media;
2) Public incitement to extremist activities involving the use of mass media
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You're always on the ball MrMann. :thumbsup:
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You see it is not just a news story it is exactly what the ethnic Russian girl I write in Lugansk told me months ago.
It is not just a news story. There is very little Ukraine crisis in Amercan news. Most Americans hardly know there is a war there. Our news is about
Iraq, Israel, and Syria.
''The information we have received about the mass graves in Lugansk is terrifying, and the information we have heard about what is happening on the battle fields makes me shiver," the ambassador told the Neatkariga newspaper.
"For example, according to eyewitnesses, the bodies of those found in the mass grave in Lugansk show that they were brutally tortured. Those in the conflict zone have told about the activities of the ''bandits'', like, for example, rounding up local girls and raping them,'' the diplomat said.
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Yarosh is not on Interpol's list for allegedly participating in fighting in Chechnya. He is on the list accused of committing a crime related to part 2 of article 205.2 and part 2 of article 280 of the Criminal Code (public calls for terrorist and extremist activities conducted through the media), i.e. the post on the Vkontakte page.
Charges:
1) Public incitement to terrorist activities involving the use of mass media;
2) Public incitement to extremist activities involving the use of mass media
It is the prerogative of the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation.
A criminal case against the citizens of Ukraine, in the ranks of the UNA-UNSO.
Main Investigation Department of the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation in the North Caucasus Federal District instituted a criminal case against the citizens of Ukraine, in the ranks of the UNA-UNSO: Igor Mazur, Valeria Bobrovich, Dmitry Korchinsky, Andrew and Oleg Tyahnibok, Dmitry Yarosh, Vladimir Hominy and other yet not a consequence of the established parties. Depending on the role of each of them are suspected of committing crimes under Cc 1, 2 tbsp. 209 of the Criminal Code (the creation of a stable armed group (band) for the purpose of attacking citizens, leading such a group (gang) and participated in attacks committed by it).
In the course of a criminal investigation of an armed clash of illegal armed groups led by Shamil Basayev and Khattab with soldiers of the 76th Pskov Airborne Division in the Chechen Republic were obtained information about the organization of the gang members of UNA-UNSO and their participation in hostilities against the federal forces on the side Chechen separatists in the period 1994-1995. According to investigators, the leaders created for this gang were Mazur, Bobrovich, Korchinskiy and others, and also includes brothers Tyahnibok, Yarosh, Hominy and other unidentified persons.
Now it becomes obvious that many radical Ukrainian activists calling for the destruction of the Russian citizens and a Russian, have a lot of experience not only appeals, but torture and murder of Russian citizens and the territory of Russia.
The consequence is already enough evidence to allow in the near future to make a resolution to bring the said persons as defendants, the absentee election against them as a preventive measure of detention and to declare them wanted.
Head of VI Markin
sledcom.ru/actual/392953/ (http://sledcom.ru/actual/392953/)
Let me ask you. What does the social network Vkontakte, on the international wanted list Ukrainian oligarch Igor Kolomoisky? ;D
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Annushka, I'm not saying that Russia hasn't accused Yarosh of fighting in Chechnya I'm just saying that the accusations submitted to Interpol were only about incitement to terrorist and extremist activities by mass media. That is to say the Vkontakte post.
I'm not sure what you mean about Kolomoyskyi. Russia have only just submitted documents to Interpol having previously (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/moscow-court-arrests-ukrainian-minister-in-absentia/503230.html) themselves issued an "international arrest warrant" (which as far as I'm aware isn't possible). Whether or not Interpol approves their request remains to be seen.
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Annushka, I'm not saying that Russia hasn't accused Yarosh of fighting in Chechnya I'm just saying that the accusations submitted to Interpol were only about incitement to terrorist and extremist activities by mass media. That is to say the Vkontakte post.
I'm not sure what you mean about Kolomoyskyi. Russia have only just submitted documents to Interpol having previously (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/moscow-court-arrests-ukrainian-minister-in-absentia/503230.html) themselves issued an "international arrest warrant" (which as far as I'm aware isn't possible). Whether or not Interpol approves their request remains to be seen.
Russian-language social network "VKontakte" used to communicate a younger audience. Then they go to the network "Schoolmates". I just was curious: what official information can go "Vkontakte"? Please link.
Our esteemed Larry showed only appetizing popki minors mischievous. ;D
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I do not accidentally mentioned here oligarch Igor Kolomoisky. In connection with the two aspects.
Prosecutor General's Office sent to Interpol materials for the international investigation Kolomoiskiy.
The Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation on June 21 issued a ruling on bringing Kolomoiskiy and head of the Interior Ministry of Ukraine Arsen Avakov as a defendant in a criminal case on the use of prohibited means and methods of warfare in eastern Ukraine. Victims in the criminal case are about 6 thousand. Ukrainian citizens and Russian journalists. 2 and 9 July Basmanny court in absentia gave sanction to arrest and Kolomoiskiy Avakova.
As reported earlier in the RF IC, "in the investigation result of collected evidence implicating Kolomoiskiy the organization of such crimes as murder, the use of prohibited means and methods of warfare, obstructing the professional activities of journalists, kidnappings (h. 3 tbsp. 33, pp . "a, b, e, f, l" h. 2 tbsp. 105 hours. 3 tbsp. 33 h. 1 tbsp. 356 hours. 3 tbsp. 33 h. 3 tbsp. 144 hours. 3 Art. 33, n. "and" h. 3 tbsp. 126 of the Criminal Code).
According to the investigation, "the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, Arsen Avakov, acting in concert with the Ukrainian businessman Igor Kolomoisky appointed governor of Dnipropetrovsk region of Ukraine, and other persons of the top leaders of the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine, April 12, with the aim of deliberately killing civilians organized and oversaw military operation ... in which artillery fire Slovyansk Kramatorsk, Donetsk, Mariupol and other settlements proclaimed the Donetsk and Lugansk People's republic uses multiple rocket launchers "Grad", aircraft rockets with submunitions, and other heavy offensive weapons with indiscriminate effects. "As a result, killed more than 100 civilians, including Russian citizens - journalists Igor Kornelyuk, Anton Voloshin and human rights activist Andrei Mironov, a citizen of Italy - Andrea Rokkelli photojournalist, also suffered injuries of varying severity, more than 200 civilians, completely or partially destroyed and burned more than 500 homes.
"In addition, the investigation believes that it is with the knowledge Avakova, Kolomoiskiy and other persons from the top leaders of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine organized the kidnapping of journalists broadcasting company" Star "Andrew Sushenkova and Anton Malyshev, illegal seizure of the same television and radio journalists Eugene Davydov Nikita Konashenkova, as well as a number of other Russian journalists "- reported in the RF IC.
Proceedings of the Prosecutor General is a prerequisite for applying to Interpol to arrest wanted.
Previously wanted by Interpol was declared leader of the Ukrainian "right sector" Dmitry Jaros. March 5 RF IC absentia charged him with "public calls to terrorist and extremist activities committed through the media." According to the investigation, in their speeches Yarosh publicly encourages anti-Russian forces to the extremist actions and terror in Russia. Basmanny court sanctioned his arrest in absentia.
Prosecutor General's Office on April 10 sent materials Yarosh Interpol through the Russian bureau of Interpol. July 25 data on its wanted list were displayed on the website of the International Criminal Police Organization under the heading "Wanted" with a request to anyone who has information about it, contact the law enforcement agency.
itar-tass.com/politika/1355436 (http://itar-tass.com/politika/1355436)
In connection with the tragic death of Malaysian Boeing.
Igor Kolomoisky could give orders accompanying the Boeing 777 dispatchers.
Oligarch Igor Kolomoisky owns a number of Ukrainian airlines "Ukraine International Airlines", "Dniproavia", "Aerosvit", but what is even more interesting, is fully funded activities dispatchers Dnepropetrovsk responsible for the wiring of the tragic voyage, as well as largely technical support for dispatch services throughout Ukraine. That is, this oligarch in fact, not only has a direct impact on the dispatching services of Ukraine, he is able to give direct instructions to some of them, including the fact that on July 17 had to be accompanied by the tragic flight of Malaysian Boeing.
http://russian.rt.com/article/42084 (http://russian.rt.com/article/42084)
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Russian-language social network "VKontakte" used to communicate a younger audience. Then they go to the network "Schoolmates". I just was curious: what official information can go "Vkontakte"? Please link.
Our esteemed Larry showed only appetizing popki minors mischievous. ;D
If I'm understanding your question correctly here are links to the story about Yarosh being accused of inciting terrorist activities via Vkontakte. Vkontakte have since banned Right Sector's Vkontakte page so the original post is no longer visible.
http://russian.rt.com/article/23491
http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/
(http://rt.com/files/news/23/01/40/00/vk.jpg)
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Thank you, MrMann.
Yes, we GoGabber discussed in March this point.
Leader of the extreme nationalist Ukrainian "right sector" Dmitry Jaros appealed for support to the rebels, Doku Umarov, urging them to step up action against Russia. In response, the head of Chechnya, said that the leader will provide the "right sector" "one-way ticket" - after the former leader of the North Caucasian terrorists (in December 2013 at a press conference in ITAR-TASS Ramzan Kadyrov said that all the data has the death of Umarov).
itar-tass.com/politika/1016619 (http://itar-tass.com/politika/1016619)
I think that the fate of Dmitry Yarosha predetermined. Just as the head of "Al Qaeda" terrorist number one, Osama bin Laden was killed during a raid of American troops in Pakistan.
The only question is who is faster: the official structures or Ramzan Kadyrov. Retaliation is inevitable! :thumbsup:
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The latest news on today from the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation:
The Investigative Committee created a special unit to investigate international crimes committed in Ukraine.
The Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation has created a special management to investigate international crimes against civilians committed in the territory of Ukraine. Establishment of the Office will apply until such time as all the Ukrainian military and perpetrators of crimes against civilians will not be prosecuted. To work spetsupravleniya will be involved in all the investigative unit of the Russian IC, on whose territory the refugees arrive from Ukraine.
Let me remind you that the Investigation Committee has investigated a number of criminal cases involving crimes against the Ukrainian and Russian citizens on the territory of Ukraine. In particular, it investigated criminal cases against members of the "UNA-UNSO" - Mazur, Bobrovich, Yarosh, Korchinsky brothers Tyagniboka, Hominy, and others, into the injured Russian journalist videoagentstva «Russia today» in Ukraine and others.
In a criminal case of illegal methods of waging war on the territory of Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republic (of Art. 356 of the Criminal Code) has conducted a series of investigations aimed at establishing specific soldiers, members of the military units of the National Guard of Ukraine and the "right sector", pilots, gunners , snipers, who gave and executed orders of airstrikes, artillery shelling and destruction of civilians and human settlements in the south-east of Ukraine. In addition, Russia's Investigative Committee intends to obtain from independent sources data from satellites of various countries in which fixed nature of the destruction, the number and locations of the Ukrainian military formations. This will allow investigators to make an objective picture of what is happening in the south-east of Ukraine. To join the cause of a large number of photos and video to prove mass crimes against civilians. Already questioned a number of Russian citizens, including journalists, freed from captivity, as well as Ukrainian refugees who have sought asylum in Russia, because they are forced to leave their homes because of persecution by the fascist Ukrainian military. According to the Migration Service of Russia, from day to day flow of refugees from Ukraine increased. Currently in Russia made an application for recognition as refugees and asylum applications from nearly 4 thousand people, including more than 500 children. All of them will be questioned as part of the criminal case, if there are reasons they will also be recognized as victims. All the victims will be provided with a complete and qualified legal assistance and the right to lodge appeals explained to the European Court of Human Rights and the International Criminal Court.
With regard to persons involved in crimes against the civilian population, the UK Russia intends to prosecute any and all officers, military personnel, both directly involved in the slaughter of civilians and persons who ordered and funding the killing of civilians. In this regard, Russia's Investigative Committee intends to give a legal assessment of the actions Arsen Avakov, Igor Kolomoisky and others.
Investigative Committee encourages everyone, including the conscious citizens of Ukraine, to assist in the establishment of specific artists kills civilians south-eastern regions of Ukraine - Military: pilots, snipers, artillery commanders calculations and other persons directly engaged and those who commit these crimes.
And let no one doubt these "heroes of Ukraine", that their "feats" sooner or later will get a decent estimate, which does not give them today's owners, who give criminal orders, and domestic and international courts.
Head of VI Markin
www.sledcom.ru/actual/404058/ (http://www.sledcom.ru/actual/404058/)
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Wheels are turning-- and it is clear that some in US have a good idea of what is required urgently- as in like now-today.
There are a lot of people in the US that do understand a greater responsibility to contribute to world issues.
Press Releases
Home / Newsroom / Press Releases
August 01, 2014
Portman and Cardin Urge the Administration to Provide Needed Military Assistance to Ukraine
Washington, D.C. –Today, U.S. Senators Rob Portman (R-Ohio) and Ben Cardin (D-Md.) urged the Administration to approve badly needed defensive military assistance to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The senators expressed concern over the Ukrainian military’s challenges defending its sovereignty against insurgents armed and trained by Russia and urged the Administration to provide the military capabilities to defeat the separatists, deter Russian aggression, and restore stability to the nation.
“The United States must stand with Ukraine as they fight for the right to chart their own future,” Portman stated. “While economic and political support is vital, the goals this aid is designed to achieve will be impossible if the Ukrainian military cannot restore law and order and deter future aggression. We must provide Ukrainians with the military capabilities they need to protect their country and fulfill the promise of the Maidan.”
"Ukraine’s people have shown remarkable courage and perseverance in the face of tremendous internal challenges and serious and ongoing external threats," said Cardin. "We will continue to stand by the people of Ukraine as they work to overcome these challenges and forge a free, independent and democratic future.”
Portman and Cardin traveled to Ukraine earlier this year to show support for the Ukrainian people and to serve as election monitors for their presidential elections.
Full text of the letter can be found below and here.
President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington DC, 20500
Dear President Obama,
We are writing to request that your administration approve badly needed defensive military assistance to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The Ukrainian military is struggling to defend its sovereignty against insurgents armed and trained by Russia and needs to possess the military capabilities to defeat the separatists, deter Russian aggression, and restore stability to the nation. The tragic disaster of the attack on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17, with strong evidence that it was downed by Russian-led separatist militants in Ukraine, further illustrates the danger posed to the region and the international community by the continued conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Until stability is restored, the democratically elected government of Ukraine will be unable to continue on the path of reform and modernization that the United States has encouraged it to follow.
The United States has been instrumental in delivering vital economic and political assistance. Through the Support for the Sovereignty, Integrity, Democracy, and Economic Stability of Ukraine Act of 2014 and administrative actions, the United States has provided Ukraine with a $1 billion loan guarantee and over $50 million in additional political and economic assistance. The United States also helped Ukraine secure a $17 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund and an 11 billion Euro aid package from the European Union. We appreciate your work in helping to provide this assistance.
However, the crucial political and economic reform goals this previously approved aid is designed to help meet will not be possible if the government of Ukraine is unable to defeat the separatists, deter foreign aggression, and maintain law and order over all areas of the country. The bipartisan Support for the Sovereignty, Integrity, Democracy, and Economic Stability of Ukraine Act of 2014 authorized $100 million to enhance security cooperation and assistance efforts with Ukraine and other countries in Central and Eastern Europe. We are concerned, however, that the level of military support the United States has provided to date is insufficient to providing the Ukrainian military with the capabilities it needs to secure its borders and deter future aggression.
The Ukrainian military needs more sophisticated equipment to succeed in its mission and preserve the great strides Ukraine has made since the Maidan uprising. We believe that a variety of non-lethal systems such as advanced communications equipment, night-vision goggles, navigation equipment, and body armor as well as defensive military weapons would provide Ukrainian forces with the capabilities they need to restore order and discourage further foreign interference.
We understand that both the Departments of State and Defense continue to coordinate with, assess needed capabilities of, and field requests from the Ukrainian security forces. We would like to better understand what steps have been taken to provide assistance to the Ukrainian military and immediate plans to expand that support.
Specifically, what military capabilities has the government of Ukraine requested? Of these capabilities, what has your administration authorized to be provided to Ukraine, and what specific capabilities have been delivered to date? Additionally, what is your overall strategy to carry out the requirements set forth in Sec. 7(c) of the Support for the Sovereignty, Integrity, Democracy, and Economic Stability of Ukraine Act of 2014?
The people of Ukraine have chosen a more democratic, transparent, and inclusive future for their country and the United States has pledged to support them in their hour of need. Honoring this commitment means providing the assistance necessary to help Ukraine develop the full range of economic, political, and military tools it needs to fulfill this hopeful vision. We urge you to support more robust assistance to Ukraine.
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Permalink: http://www.portman.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/8/portman-and-cardin-urge-the-administration-to-provide-needed-military-assistance-to-ukraine
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FYI
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebel-city-lugansk-verge-humanitarian-catastrophe-134114295.html
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This is the Ukrainian official view of the war.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28632292
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This is the Ukrainian official view of the war.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28632292
No it isn't. Its the view of one unnamed BBC writer. The BBC is not an official Ukrainian news channel.
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This is the Ukrainian official view of the war.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28632292
No it isn't. Its the view of one unnamed BBC writer. The BBC is not an official Ukrainian news channel.
Manny, I think you are mistaking. It is already. ;D
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This would not likely find its way into a journal such as FOREIGN AFFAIRS or the like, but I believe a line from the great rock guitarist Jimi Hendrix "hits the nail on the head" in identifying both Putin's motives and the solution to this situation and many others: "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will know peace." Putin wants desperately for the days of the Soviet Union to return, with him at its head, of course, not because that was a better time, but for his thirst for power and satisfaction or an arrogant pride. He certainly does not act in the interests of achieving peace. Unfortunately, he seems to be playing to an appreciative audience in the person of the Russian citizenry, at least a goodly portion of them, and he takes that as encouragement. It's such a shame; it is so sad. At least he doesn't behave as many Americans do and pretend that he is doing it in the conscience of a "good Christian."
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On of the things that has always be of interest to me is where did the money come from to fund the pro Russians. Here the pro Russian commander says that they had to purchase the weapons from Russia. In another artical I read it said, Kiev said the money must be coming from the ex-president fund he stold from the country when he was in office. I always felt if one knew where the money was coming from then we would have a better understanding of the war.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/putin-s-number-one-gunman-in-ukraine-warns-him-of-possible-defeat.html#
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It's not quite as simple as that. Some of the funding is thought to come from Russian oligarchs such as Konstantin Malofeev (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/569e533e-051c-11e3-9e71-00144feab7de.html#axzz39W6qeooJ), who previously employed both Igor Strelkov and Alexander Borodai within his Marshall Capital Partners group.
Changing the subject slightly, this article is an interesting read. Journalists have been trawling through Strelkov's posts on various websites prior to his involvement in eastern Ukraine.
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-against-the-world-igor-strelkovs-self-fulfilling-prophecy/
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Interesting article, not sure how true the effects are but if it is beginning to affect average person,
could make things more interesting.
http://www.mail.com/int/business/markets/3025688-russian-tourists-stranded-abroad-crisis-deepens.html#.1258-stage-hero1-14
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The account of one of the 17 released hostages.
A special presidential flight landed in Kiev late on July 29 carrying 17 exhausted people, who then met with President Petro Poroshenko.
The group, which included 15 Ukrainian servicemen, one Swedish and one Georgian citizen, spent months as hostages in Horlivka, one of the last remaining strongholds of the Kremlin-backed separatists led by defiant rebel commander Igor Bezler who goes by the nickname of “Demon.”
These people were set free in an exchange for Olga Kulygina, believed to be a Russian Security Service agent.
One of the released was Vasily Budik, a Georgian national and Ukrainian activist from Horlivka, who spent 88 days in captivity, enduring torture. In this time, he learned about the executions of 35 people and the massive destruction of the city by Ukraine’s artillery. At the same time, some 32 people were released.
“There were three months of waiting for either exchange or execution,” Budik told the Kiev Post in an interview on Aug. 1.
On May 2, Budik and his wife were coming out from a shop in Horlivka when a group of masked armed men pushed him into a car and drove him to a separatist-controlled police station.
He was then interrogated and tortured by Russian agents, who accused him of links with Right Sector, Ukraine’s far right nationalist group and planning to lead pro-Ukrainian volunteer battalions.
“They were taking a knife and picking my knee up to the bone… They broke our ribs on one side and three from the other side. They beat my mid-section. They hanged me with my hands handcuffed,” he said.
Then his captors put Budik in a cellar, where he caught pneumonia, but survived thanks to the help of a nurse who was treating the hostages. While Budik knows Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh, he denied any links to the group.
After 20 years in Horlivka, Budik and separatist chief Bezler -- who also lived there for 12 years and once managed a funeral home in the city – had many links in common.
“Many friends were calling him and asking to release me, offering money. The maxim sum offered for was me $50,000,” Budik said. “But they had no interest in money. They needed an exchange for Olga (Kulygina).”
The mysterious Kulygina, officially working as a journalist for the pro-Kremlin Anna News agency, was arrested in late May by Ukrainian forces when she was crossing the border from Russia along with a big sum of money and dozens of armed rebels. Numerous sources reported she is a close friend of self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic’s leaders Igor Girkin (Strelkov) and Aleksandr Borodai.
Bezler, who initially offered five hostages for her exchange, claimed she is the wife of one of his men. Budik, however, claimed it’s not so.
“Her husband died 13 years ago,” he said. “She is apparently one of the leaders, inspirers and curators of all this movement Novorossiya. She was preparing plan of all this. She is a political technologist and high-ranking FSB officer.”
Budik believes it was hard for Poroshenko to agree to release Kulygina. The negotiations were led by retired General Colonel Volodymyr Ruban.
When negotiations broke down, Bezler staged a mock execution of Budik and two other hostages. “We were told to fall down nicely. If we didn’t do this, they were promising to kill us for real,” Budik said.
Budik said he had numerous conversations with Bezler, who he describes as a man of extremes.
“On one side he could feed you with red caviar, to sit and cry about the killed, but on the other side he could shoot you easy,” he said. “Human life meant nothing for him.”
Bezler, an agent of the GRU Russian military intelligence agency, described executions as sending the victims “to the country of sunshine.”
He imposed strict order in Horlivka. Drunks were severely punished. Those accused of looting were killed.
So no one dared to rob banks or ATMs, and the local mayor, after being found guilty of embezzlement, was forced to give the money back. It was used to repair roads.
But Bezler was disappointed that most residents in the Donetsk Oblast city of 250,000 didn’t support his ideas.
Bezler didn’t believe in the separatist Donetsk People’s Republic, despised the other rebel commanders and hated the Cossack fighters, accusing them of killing his friend. So any captive Cossack was inevitably executed. The captured members of Ukrainian volunteer battalions were also killed after torture. The captured Ukrainian soldiers were treated as prisoners of war and kept in better condition than the civilians.
He said Ruban, the retired general colonel who brokered the deal, “came unarmed along with his son to Horlivka bringing Olga. We got into four cars and drove to Chuhuyiv (a city in Kharkov Oblast). The president sent a plane for us there,” he said.
Budik felt no emotion at the time but drank whiskey with the released Swedish guy. It was a sad day. His wife, Natalia, said Horlivka was heavily shelled in the fighting and a close friend of the family was captured.
Now Budik is trying to assist Ruban in securing the release of more hostages.
He said that, in the last days of his captivity, the Kremlin-backed insurgents, seemed to realize that their seizure of the city was doomed. He also knew that Bezler left the city.
Budik plans to go back to Horlivka when it is safer. “This is my home. Of course it will be a lot of work to reconstruct it all, but I will definitely return there,” he said.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/former-horlivkas-prisoner-recalls-tortures-killings-and-intimate-talks-with-captor-359370.html
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A very interesting report-- some of the conclusions reached here are near enough the same posted here some time ago--where of course the silly pro-rus syncopants attempted to ridicule.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/10/saakashvili-ukraine-will-be-the-end-of-putin/
Saakashvili: “Ukraine will be the end of Putin”
In Lvov, the former President of Georgia spoke about why Merkel and Sarközy were “physically” scared of Putin
On August 8, the former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, during whose presidency the country survived invasion by the Russian army, paid his first full-day visit to Lvov.
He prayed for the fallen in the Russia-Georgia war in the Garrison Peter and Paul Cathedral and gave a lecture to Lvov citizens on Georgia’s experience in reforming the country.
At the Lvov city council he talked about how the Georgian people survived Russia’s invasion in 2008 with great pain and difficulty, how he managed to turn the most corrupt country in the post-Soviet space into one of the safest democratic states in the world, how Ukraine should be proud of its people, and what Europe will thank Ukraine for throughout centuries to come.
Saakashvili on Lvov
It is a great honor for me to be here in this historic building and in this wonderful, very beautiful city, the city of dreams. I am amazed and fascinated by the citizens of your city and your mayor, who carried out incredibly important reforms and created, in Lvov, a testing ground for reforms, which are now necessary all over Ukraine.
I was awed by the scale of these reforms. The most important thing there is in Lvov at the moment is the spirit of change, the understanding that there is now movement. You are at such an important stage, when the entire country needs such change, such renovations which can now be observed in Lvov.
On Ukraine
Ukraine is a grand country. I fell in love with this country the first moment I set foot on this soil, when I came to study at the Kiev university.
Today, two hours were enough for me to understand how untrue Russia’s propaganda is about this land being populated by fascists and Banderites exclusively. First, I don’t consider Banderites to be an offensive word, in fact to the contrary. Second, Banderites and fascists cannot be compared. The most important thing is that, from the very first moment of making your acquaintance, Ukrainians make you forget that you are a foreigner. Besides the Unites States of America and, possibly, Canada, I don’t know of any other country which is so able to integrate various ethnic groups in this way.
Ukraine has strict legislative traditions. Magdeburg rights existed in the majority of Ukraine. You were part of the European-style legislative tradition that developed in Europe, which never happened in Georgia. You directly border the countries of the European Union. You have a much bigger potential than even your closest neighbor, Poland. With all due respect to my Polish colleagues – they admit it themselves.
Personalities decide everything in politics
Many people think that personalities decide nothing in politics, but rather everything is decided by processes. This is complete nonsense. In reality, personalities decide everything. The main thing they decide on is that the world has to be changed for the better.
When asked what I miss from my presidency, I say that the only thing I miss about the opportunity to make decisions is that every day, every minute, every second, when you are making decisions, you can change the world around you, the lives of your citizens, and your country for the better. If you come to power with this goal, you will succeed in everything. If you came to power to have houses, apartments, and bank accounts, then everything will be wrong.
On the Ukraine-Russia war
The way you are now fighting for your state is a miracle and an example for the entire world. Yes, it is true that the army has been destroyed for years, that everyone took bribes, sold and robbed, that they committed treason, and lost qualifications. Putin counted precisely on this.
But when he decided to step on your territory, he did not understand that he was dealing with a population of 45 million and not just with certain officers and soldiers or the government of the country. He doesn’t understand this at all.
I had 36 meetings with Putin. At almost each one he repeated that Ukraine is not a real state, but a territory. He was absolutely convinced that Ukraine has only 5 million people like Georgia. And the rest are simply an artificial organization of people. Ukrainians, to his mind, live in Ivano-Frankivsk, in Lvov, and in Volyn, and that’s it.
I think that with its invasion in 2008 Russia somehow helped the Georgian nation consolidate.
I am not calling for you to place a monument to this horrible person in your beautiful city, but it should be noted, he has also consolidated your nation.
And he even united the Ukrainians that are living in the East and South of the country, without a doubt. They may not speak Ukrainian, but in Russian they are explaining to the occupants quite comprehensively why Ukraine is not Russia.
With baited breath we are watching you today, and all of Europe is watching you. If you win, we will win as well.
Today Ukraine is saving European civilization
I think that today is an absolutely unique instance of Ukraine saving European civilization from the 21st century barbarian. Ukraine has rescued Europe numerous times in history. But now it is more relevant than ever before.
You are saving the world from World War III with your own lives, your own blood by self-sacrifice. But centuries will go by and everyone will remember it. Everyone will say: there was a moment when complete annihilation threatened the European civilization. As this was and remains Putin’s goal, he will go as far as he is allowed. I don’t see any other obstacles for him in modern Europe, individual ones, had Ukraine not become such an obstacle today.
Russia has not seen such a fiasco for centuries
He has already lost. After his easy annexation of Crimea, he believed that he would push on and start an Anschluss; he would go to the East, then the South of Ukraine, Moldova, close the circle around Kiev, isolate Western Ukraine from Kiev and that would be it – the Ukrainian state would not longer exist.
First, he lost in the South. Very difficult events occurred in Odesa and here the line was drawn, here it was determined that Ukraine would not follow Putin.
Then Kharkov, Dnipropetrovsk – there he lost right away, nobody followed him. And in Donetsk and Lugansk he decided to make in Ukraine a “bloody wound.” He decided to wait for the Ukrainian economy to crash, to turn off your gas, to close off the market from you, to land a military blow, and wait until these armed people toppled the government in Kiev, then civil war and chaos would break out. Russia clearly tried out this scenario in Georgia in the 90’s.
It didn’t work. Three quarters of the territories occupied by Russia were freed by the Ukrainian army – Russia has not suffered such a military defeat for many decades, if not centuries. Because this is a Russian military invasion in Ukraine and it has been for a long time.
Now Putin has a choice to either continue this tactic of encouraging the “bloody wound” or lose, as the Ukrainian army is advancing.
President Poroshenko did not make the mistake my predecessor, Eduard Shevarnadze, kept on making by constantly signing ceasefires with Russia. He signed four such agreements. Every time it ended with Russia once again occupying some part of Georgian territory and staying there. Poroshenko did not resort to this; Poroshenko was not afraid and the Ukrainian people were not afraid.
On Putin: “la-la-la”
Putin does not need to be loved. The last time we saw each other was when he threatened us in a variety of ways at this meeting and at the end he said: your friends from the West promise you a lot of good things, but they never make good on their promises. I am not promising you anything good, on the contrary, many problems and troubles I can promise to you and I am a man of my word.
He does not believe in love. He does not need to be loved. He thinks that his ratings in Russia are based on fear and this is partially true. He needed Europe and America to be scared of him, for Sarközy to be physically afraid – and this was the case for some time: Bush was scared, Merkel was scared.
He brought two huge dogs to his first meeting with Merkel in Irkutsk because he knew she has a phobia of dogs. This is how he talks to the chancellor of a European state and this is the way he talks to an individual nation.
And suddenly the Ukrainian people emerged out of nowhere and they turned out to be much more numerous than he expected, plus they are not afraid of anyone. This is the worst thing that could have happened to the lord of lies and violence: when you fancy yourself so frightening that everyone is scared of you and suddenly they tell you that you are not scary, you are kh***o… this is when the end comes suddenly.
The fact that you are singing this little song that became a hit and it is constantly on the top lists of YouTube… this means that you are not afraid of him, you are laughing at him.
Putin is no Stalin
Putin’s great mistake is that he did not imprison the wives of all of his officials like Stalin did, as he thought that nothing good would come of his companions’ wives.
All of Putin’s nouveau riche have young and pretty wives. All of these women want to go shopping in “decaying” Europe. And when, suddenly, one of these beauties comes to understand that her bank card is not accepted in one of these countries, she will spend a long time on the phone shouting at her husband - who is at that moment busy occupying some part of some territory - that he has to stop this, as she cannot buy her diamonds in Europe.
The Russian Empire will fall soon
I am convinced that this prison will fall soon. Because the sanctions that were recently imposed are very serious. The Russian banking system is almost completely blocked. Panic has broken out there. They have 500 billion USD in oil funds, but also 800 billion USD in loans and obligations. Russia is a big gas station. It has no allies, no economy. Its allies are Venezuela, Nauru, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are desolate. And that’s that.
Putin has been constantly pouring gasoline into European banks and taking money for it to finance terrorists. This is his nightly entertainment. And when this gas station is closed down, this man will be weakened.
We are on the brink of great historical change. The Russian Empire was first undermined by Georgian reforms, but Maidan in Kiev is the beginning of the Russian Empire’s end. Putin’s end started there and it will finish when Russia finally loses the dirty war it is leading against you, and this is exactly what will happen. It is an obstacle he cannot overcome, he has underestimated the European Ukrainian nation.
Europe is Putin’s disappointment
Putin has been constantly counting on Europeans being a cowardly people. This is a partial truth. He believes that Europeans are sellouts, and this is partially true. However Europeans are not complete sellouts and not complete cowards. After the annex of Crimea and the attack on the east of Ukraine, he infringed on fundamental European interests. And when fundamental Western interests are infringed on, the West consolidates. Now all European politicians have united around Ukraine, even though it might not seem that way.
I am very envious that you are creating such a country as Ukraine today. You are very lucky, especially the youth. There is no bigger honor and luck than having the opportunity to build a new country.
My compatriots were taken out of Russia on cattle cars
Exactly six years ago, Russia’s 120-thousand strong army attacked Georgia, opening fire at us from two hundred airplanes. And the goal of this invasion was clear.
They did not beat us over Abkhazia and South Ossetia since Russia had control over these territories since 1999. Putin’s problem was different: Georgia underwent radical reforms during the Rose Revolution, which created the bases for a modern European state in the most corrupt, most criminalized, most backwards and practically feudal country in the post-Soviet state.
They did not expect this from the Caucasus.
It was expected that Caucasians kill each other, they are out of control, they are a hot-headed people, they are disorganized, they will be enemies to each other and it is easy to control and manipulate them.
This myth, this reality that took centuries to create, we destroyed it within a couple of years.
Not only did we ruin this myth by creating state institutions, but today Georgia is the safest country in the world. The most corrupt and criminalized country became the most safe and law-abiding in all of post-Soviet space.
We have the fastest customs procedures, the fastest speed of issuing documents, passports, and certificates. Georgia has the friendliest service, probably, among the majority of world countries, in a country where everything was different.
And this was regarded as fact not only in the Caucasus. Russians themselves started asking Putin: if Georgia managed it, why can’t we?
And this is where big problems started for Putin. In order to solve them he started sending terrorists to us and they blew up police precincts, killed our soldiers, attacked various places, and blew up civilian structures.
He started a full fuel embargo on us as revenge for supporting the Orange Maidan. A month after the end of the Orange Revolution, they turned off gas and electricity in Georgia on the coldest night in January. We survived and became completely energy-independent.
Then they took our market, we were unable to sell anything to Russia. That year we only had 17% of growth, next year they were two-digit numbers.
Then they set up various provocations, bombings, and explosions. Georgians were openly arrested and deported on cattle cars, tens of thousands of my compatriots were transported on big transport jets. Georgia never changed its course. And when nothing worked, we started pressuring the separatists from all sides, when they no longer had any strength – Putin took off his mask and attacked Georgia with an army of 120 thousand.
The goal of the invasion was completely clear – to force Georgia to change its democratic course, ruin the Georgian state, ruin these reforms, and hang me by certain body parts as has been stated at the highest international level (obviously, he would be unable to reach these parts of my body physically), but this story ended successfully for us.
In 2008 my country survived. The democratic world came to help us. All the main construction projects to develop the infrastructure were done after 2008 thanks to investments. When I became president we had 100 thousand tourists and when I finished my presidency there were 6 million. When I became president we were listed at 176th place for ease of doing business and when I left – we took 8th place in the world.
Georgia managed to prove that it is possible to do the impossible. There could not have been any obstacles in our way: if something is necessary, it cannot be impossible.
Source: Zaxid
Translated by Mariya Shcherbinina, edited by Elizabeth Martin
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Interesting interview with an American volunteer serving with the Donbass Battalion in Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/v/F4DpPr9xy5U
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A very interesting report-- some of the conclusions reached here are near enough the same posted here some time ago--where of course the silly pro-rus syncopants attempted to ridicule.
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I hope all of your comments are preceeded by the same stupid comments. I know of almost no pro-rus syncopants on this site (at least not as many pro-Ukraine). Saves me the time from reading this crap.
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syncopants
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/09/21/article-1313817-002FA0B100000258-851_634x455.jpg)
? ? ? ?
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“Ukraine will be the end of Putin”
Hopefully, it WILL be.
At least, my compatriots do all possible to get rid of the infiltration of putin's regim into our country.
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“Ukraine will be the end of Putin”
Hopefully, it WILL be.
At least, my compatriots do all possible to get rid of the infiltration of putin's regim into our country.
What do you mean with "all possible" - jumping at Maidns each 3-4 years with zero results or what?
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“Ukraine will be the end of Putin”
Hopefully, it WILL be.
At least, my compatriots do all possible to get rid of the infiltration of putin's regim into our country.
The spirit in Ukraine is quite remarkable. Maidan proved the will of the people and subsequently a unity never seen previously .It has not been an easy journey-- and it is about to get much harder-but so far a way has been found .
From the time of my first visit-I realised how dated so many expressed opinions were about Ukraine-- and now-- those that have not understood a profound shift in 2014 of Ukrainian views and attitudes it highlights why staying up to date is so important to understand a situation.
Here on the forum- those that have NEVER been there,or were there so long ago,parrot outdated views and observations as they try and bluff and pretend expertise that never was-- and certainly is not now.
As little example--has anyone else noticed that on forums people with a specific interest in Ukraine- that disagreed about most things are now united and similar on issues Ukraine? That is a minor reflection of Ukraine itself-the common cause has united people and Ukraine.
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From a friend today:
"Lora spoke with her Mother today and told me that the Ukraine Govt called all 60 and under able body males to military duties and deployment to the Donetsk region.
wow. up to age 60 ??"
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An interesting article here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/kiev-is-winning-the-war-109935.html#.U-p-atq9KSN)
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An interesting article here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/kiev-is-winning-the-war-109935.html#.U-p-atq9KSN)
Interesting as an American, biased propaganda piece, yes. I couldn't get past about half way..........
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An interesting article here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/kiev-is-winning-the-war-109935.html#.U-p-atq9KSN)
Interesting as an American, biased propaganda piece, yes. I couldn't get past about half way..........
The author is Canadian. Please read up her credentials.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystia_Freeland
An extract:
Freeland was born in Peace River, Alberta.[2][3] Her father, Donald Freeland, was a lawyer and a member of the Liberal Party of Canada,[4] and her mother, Halyna Chomiak Freeland (1946–2007), was also a lawyer who once ran for election in Edmonton-Strathcona, representing the New Democratic Party.[5][6] Her mother was of Ukrainian descent.[7] Freeland attended the United World College of the Adriatic.[8] She received her Bachelor of Arts degree in Russian history and literature from Harvard University and a Master of Studies degree in Slavonic Studies from St Antony's at the University of Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar in 1993.[9][10]
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Canada was in North America last time I looked. But her history is no great surprise reading a bit of the content.
Like I said, an American, biased propaganda piece.
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Canada was in North America last time I looked. But her history is no great surprise reading a bit of the content.
Like I said, an American, biased propaganda piece.
I beg to differ.
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An interesting article here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/kiev-is-winning-the-war-109935.html#.U-p-atq9KSN)
Interesting as an American, biased propaganda piece, yes. I couldn't get past about half way..........
She's not American. She is Canadian. After obtaining a degree, she moved to Ukraine, where she was based while working as a freelance journalist. She sold her articles primarily to British papers, and was flying in some pretty high circles in Moscow, as she traveled throughout the FSU. She eventually moved to London, where she worked for the Financial Times. She moved back to Canada, where she worked for the Globe and Mail, and then was hired as editor of the Financial Times, based in New York.
She is now a member of parliament, and lives in Toronto.
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Canada was in North America last time I looked. But her history is no great surprise reading a bit of the content.
Like I said, an American, biased propaganda piece.
Canadians are not Americans.
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An interesting article here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/kiev-is-winning-the-war-109935.html#.U-p-atq9KSN)
Interesting as an American, biased propaganda piece, yes. I couldn't get past about half way..........
Manny, isn't that the same for others trying to make it to the end of a piece by RT? RT is just as, if not much more, biased as any western source.
Like you have always said, the truth is somewhere in the middle, but if you can't read the other side all the way through, then you can't expect to end up in the middle can you? Then again, one has to want to be in the middle though.... :)
Same is true for the other side.
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He should have read it to the end, as most of her analysis is accurate. I can't say if she is right about Putin, but she is about the absurdities spewed re the "division" of Ukrainian society.
I would disagree with her statement that Poroshenko was elected because he supported Maidan. Maidan never had the support of more than 48% of Ukrainians.
But then, Manny has always believed the majority ethnically Ukrainian residents of Lugansk, Donetsk, and Dnepropetrovsk wanted to "go home" to a Russia that was never their home.
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I love it when Halo proclaims my beliefs. :chuckle:
Don't fall off that high horse now.............
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You have posted at least twice on this forum that the eastern regions of Ukraine would be "going home".
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Canada was in North America last time I looked. But her history is no great surprise reading a bit of the content.
Like I said, an American, biased propaganda piece.
Canadians are not Americans.
From our British allies point of view it is still British North America or therefore British America or America for short - the Canadians in their minds live with Polar bears in the frozen great white north. Aay hosers :thumbsup:
Seriously though...
What Manny fails to recognize with his understandable pro Roosiya bias is much of the Policy that the USA follows for EU is formulated under the leadership of our British/Scots/Welsh/Irish North European allies - they wish to invest in the Farmlands and industrial reconstruction of the once great and mighty breadbasket of the FSU Ukraine as a way to influence them more to the somewhat less corrupt UK way of doing business over the next few decades and UA pivoting 180 degrees towards Russia was not in the UK's interest - far more UK investment in UA than the USA.
The USA is in a strong pivot towards the growth investment potential of the ASEAN region ironically while the major Asean player Communist Red Freaking China is building a $57 Billion USD super canal across Lake Managua in Nicaragua, a third mega canal in Panama and a major "Land canal" for roll on roll of cargo across Columbia with a 100 year plan to tie all of this new mega cargo capacity into a new multi-modal rail and superhighway network they will take the lead on building to serve the new rapidly emerging middle classes across Latin Central and South America - the other America(s)...
Ironic that the USA focus is Greater Asia for future Growth and the Red Chinese is the other Americas and Africa as well as Greater Asia.
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The spirit in Ukraine is quite remarkable. Maidan proved the will of the people and subsequently a unity never seen previously .It has not been an easy journey-- and it is about to get much harder-but so far a way has been found .
From the time of my first visit-I realised how dated so many expressed opinions were about Ukraine-- and now-- those that have not understood a profound shift in 2014 of Ukrainian views and attitudes it highlights why staying up to date is so important to understand a situation.
Here on the forum- those that have NEVER been there,or were there so long ago,parrot outdated views and observations as they try and bluff and pretend expertise that never was-- and certainly is not now.
As little example--has anyone else noticed that on forums people with a specific interest in Ukraine- that disagreed about most things are now united and similar on issues Ukraine? That is a minor reflection of Ukraine itself-the common cause has united people and Ukraine.
"like" ; )
True. I can say, JayH, I myself didn't see our people as united as we are since last December. And it is quite a marvellous thing to see how "a population" becomes "a nation".
Collapse of putler's regime would come one day, sooner or later. Totalitarianism cannot last for ages, I believe. Although, it might take long...
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This just war footage. But notice these guy are volenteers fighting for Ukraine. This fighting was southeast Donetsk on the 10th August.
https://news.vice.com/video/this-just-in-ukrainian-forces-battle-separatists-near-donetsk
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"Trust in Russia has reached rock bottom"
(http://imgcdn.newsrep.net/i.img?u=http%3a%2f%2fnewsrepmedia.blob.core.windows.net%2fimage%2f2014-08%2f27294292_00_d-940x529_f-1_c-519x246.jpg&a=c&w=400&h=400)
DW- August, 13, 2014 2:50 GMT
Foreign affairs politician Karl-Georg Wellmann (CDU) believes that Russia will invade Ukraine under the pretense of providing them with aid. Help from Germany can only come when the region is brought to peace.
DW: on Tuesday there were troubling reports that a Russian aid convoy, unknown to the international red cross, was on its way towards the Ukrainian border. Is this foul play from Russia?
Karl-Georg Wellmann: That's the fear. The problem is that trust in Russia has reached rock bottom after president Putin failed to adhere to his promises, including those made to Chancellor Merkel. Naturally, there's a concern that a military intervention is lurking behind the disguise of this humanitarian convoy. That's why the response from the international community has been so hesistant.
How likely do you consider a Russian invasion under a humanitarian banner?
Likley and not - every angle has to be considered. There are corresponding noises coming out of Moscow: The deputy prime minister Dmitri Rogosin has said that Ukraine must be liberated.
Russia could bring a swift end to the separate terrorist activities by stopping the movement of guns, ammunition and fighters across the border. Yet Russia have decided not to do this. As a result, the suspicion that they want to destabilise the system and use the pretence of a humanitarian convoy has increased. The instigator is now attempting to become police and that's not right.
Ultimately, the Ukrainian government is in a dilemma. They have to react to the humanitarian emergency in the east, but success in that venture is unlikely without external help. Help from Russia though carries a great risk. What to do?
The West must do all they can to stabilise the situation in the Ukraine. In the best case, this should be achieved with Russia but so long as Moscow remain an unreliable partner then nothing will happen. Russia must really take sustainable steps to regain that trust, and so far we haven't seen that.
What can the West do apart from watch on? If more help was to come out of Germany and other european countries, then Russia wouldn't be so involved.
http://nr.news-republic.com/Web/ArticleWeb.aspx?regionid=4&articleid=27294292&m=m
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Russia to top UK threat assessment levels
Bruce Jones, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
07 August 2014
(http://www.janes.com/images/assets/618/41618/1534351_-_main.jpg)
Russia is being placed at the top of the United Kingdom's defence threat list, on a par with terrorism and cyber warfare, it has been revealed.
Speaking to IHS Jane's on 4 August, Rory Stewart, chair of the House of Commons Defence Committee, said: "Until recently threats from Russia have been rated at the bottom level Tier 3. They are now seen and will soon be graded as the top level, Tier 1."
"We are facing 'Hybrid Warfare': a combination of actions by the armed forces, special operations and the intelligence services, which appear generally to have primacy under the close control of Vladimir Putin," he said. "There are two strands, the tactical and the political, used to bemuse leaderships with rumour and propaganda and to topple regimes. It is very nimble.
http://www.janes.com/article/41618/russia-to-top-uk-threat-assessment-levels?elq=~~eloqua..type--emailfield..syntax--recipientid~~&elqCampaignId=~~eloqua..type--campaign..campaignid--0..fieldname--id~~&utm_campaign=JR_eNews_IO_ADM_Global_IHSJanesSecurity360_081214&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua
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“Ukraine will be the end of Putin”
Hopefully, it WILL be.
At least, my compatriots do all possible to get rid of the infiltration of putin's regim into our country.
Always ready! :RUS:
In the best possible way to take in refugees. Since 1991. From all over the Soviet Union! :-*
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Hot Issue – Lies, Damned Lies and Russian Disinformation
By: Paul Goble
Executive Summary
The Russian Federation uses extensive propaganda, outright lies, and—most importantly—disinformation as part of the hybrid warfare it is waging against Ukraine and the West. Disinformation combines truth, what people want to be true, and cleverly disguised outright falsehoods. Moscow has been actively using such disinformation as part of a conscious broader policy on Ukraine, and it readily changes or rejects elements of the false narrative it has been spinning as political events on the ground shift. Russian disinformation has landed on fertile soil domestically because it plays on Russians’ deep rooted emotions and serves to turn people’s attention away from more immediate political and economic concerns. Abroad, Moscow’s message is given undue exposure and lack of questioning due to some Western journalists’ misunderstanding between balance and true objectivity, as well as the existence of a large constituency whose jobs rely on the West maintaining strong relations with Russia. In order to limit the spread and impact of disinformation, Western governments will need to recognize the difference between simple lies and actual disinformation, acquire expertise to identify disinformation and parse the truths and falsehoods within it, as well as develop methods to answer and counteract such disinformation both at home and abroad. The policy changes necessary to achieve this will require political will and some costs, but the costs of doing nothing may be even greater.
Introduction
Writing in The Moscow Times on July 30, Andrei Malgin pointed to just how differently the Russian authorities behaved after the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 airliner compared to how the Soviet ones reacted when they shot down KAL Flight 007 in 1983. At that time, he writes, “Soviet media did not deny the incident but focused all its propaganda efforts on explaining the context of how it happened” (The Moscow Times, July 30).
This time, however, “the Kremlin-controlled media has repeatedly [and variously] claimed that: the airplane was not shot down at all, but fell out of the sky by itself; a bomb exploded aboard the airplane; the airplane was hit by a Ukrainian missile fired from the ground; a Ukrainian air force fighter pursued and then attacked the plane; the [United States] shot down the plane in order to damage Russia’s reputation; no living people were aboard the plane as it flew on autopilot from Amsterdam, where it had been pre-loaded with ‘rotting corpses.’ ”
The Moscow commentator argued that under President Vladimir Putin, “it was not enough to simply twist the facts to their own purposes” because “when propaganda is based on nuances of interpretation, the chance always remains that someone with a fresh perspective or a critical mindset can cast doubt on those claims.” But, Malgin says, “when the authorities base their propaganda entirely on lies, they achieve their desired result faster and leave no room for doubt” (The Moscow Times, July 30).
Malgin is clearly on to something with his suggestion that Putin is attempting to create “an alternative reality” with lies. But more is going on than that. Indeed, the scale of Moscow’s dishonesty about Ukraine over the last six months has been so unimaginably large that many have been driven to compile constantly updated lists of the 40, 60 or even 100 most outrageous things Vladimir Putin and his minions have said about Ukraine. [1] These observers are shocked that so many people in the Russian Federation appear to accept what Putin’s regime is saying as true. And at the same time they are outraged that so many in the West appear to have fallen victim to Moscow’s lies as well—either out of a confusion between balance and objectivity, a conviction that all governments lie and that no one should be surprised, or a commitment to maintaining good relations with the Russian government no matter what it does.
Such reactions are understandable if not particularly laudable. But they have combined to distract attention from the fact that what Putin has been doing, while it has its roots in past Russian state practice, represents a dramatic expansion. This upsurge includes not just a greater number of lies and damned lies, but also more thoroughness in Moscow’s carefully considered use of disinformation to advance Russia’s interests at home and abroad. No other government has ever employed this type of policy with such effectiveness; and few have ever had a greater need to counter it if they are to defend both their values and their interests.
What Putin is doing prompts three questions: What is disinformation as compared to simple lies and even damned lies? Why is it so effective? And how can it be identified and countered? Those are the subjects of this essay.
Disinformation Is Not the Same Thing as Lying
All governments at one time or another lie either by omission or commission in the prosecution of policies, covering up what they do not want people to know about or presenting information that is false or distorted to distract attention or to convince people that what the government wants is justified. But few governments use disinformation even though it too involves lying and even though it is intended to advance a political agenda.
As Nathalie Grant, the West’s leading authority on disinformation, routinely put it, disinformation can be mostly, even 99 percent true. What makes it disinformation is the clever combination of what is true, what people want to be true, and what is demonstrably false but which many will not notice if it is cleverly presented. Consequently, what defines disinformation is not the percentage of truth or the percentage of lies it contains but the ways in which it is designed, carried out and ultimately accepted or rejected. [2]
Disinformation is always a conscious policy and part of a larger policy agenda. It is not simply dishonesty of this or that official in response to a particular event. It is implemented with a clear understanding that a combination of truth and falsehood is useful and effective. And it is pursued as long as it is effective, being sacrificed only when there are reasons to believe that either it is no longer necessary or it is no longer being accepted. All of those things have characterized Putin’s approach to information about Ukraine, a pattern that makes what Moscow is doing all the more disturbing.
Unlike most other governments, the Russian government has a long history of engaging in disinformation campaigns. The tsarist regime did it, the Soviet regime did it, and Putin is doing it in spades. During the last six months, the Putin regime has put out a message about Ukraine that contains some true things (if there were no true things, there would be little basis to build on), some untrue things that people would like to believe because they allow them to feel good about themselves or to promote their own interests, and some completely false things that people do not reject out of hand because they see them as consistent or at least as not inconsistent with the other two components.
Putin’s disinformation campaign about Crimea is particularly instructive in this regard. His message combined all three of these elements. Yes, it is true, as Moscow insists: Crimea has a longer history of ties to Russia than do other parts of Ukraine. No, it is not true that Crimea is “Russian” in the same sense that Moscow is. And it is demonstrably not true that ethnic Russians in Crimea were being persecuted and oppressed and needed to be defended by outside Russian forces. But these three themes worked together and even reinforced one another in the minds of many.
Putin Uses Disinformation Because It Works
Both Western observers and many Russian opponents of Putin’s regime have been shocked that Moscow’s duplicity regarding the situation in Ukraine has been so effective and has sent Putin’s rating with Russians to unprecedented heights. They have blamed this on the facts that Russians overwhelmingly rely on Moscow television for their news, that Moscow television is controlled by the Kremlin, and that few Russians have access to, or at least take advantage of, alternative sources of information. And they have pointed to the increasing repression by the Putin government—to the return of the kind of fear Russians felt during most of Soviet times—in order to argue that many Russians may be willing to say they support Putin or agree with him even when they do not.
Both these factors are undoubtedly at work, but neither explains why the Kremlin’s disinformation effort has been so successful among Russians. That has both deeper and more superficial causes. Among the deeper are a sense of grievance over the loss of superpower status and the impression that Russia now has the chance to recover that status by using force that others will not oppose. Russians also fear that Ukraine’s turn to the West could further isolate them and lead to their decline. Finally, there is a profound sense among the Russian population that politics is the work of elite conspiracies rather than popular movements—hence, what is happening in Ukraine is necessarily the work of outside forces like the United States government or the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).
At a more superficial level, Putin’s disinformation campaign has worked because it has played to all of these factors precisely at a time when things have not been going well in Russia. The economy has been stagnant or declining, and the regime and many ordinary Russians would like to have their attention diverted to something else—the Sochi Olympics or “a good little war.” Putin faced a challenge to his rule in 2011–2012. Many Russians were frightened that the country might be returning to a period of uncertainty and instability. In turn, Putin’s disinformation campaign about Ukraine provided reasons for Russians, his entourage and perhaps even himself to believe that the Kremlin leader could succeed in leading that country into a brighter future without the risks of instability that almost all the other courses proposed would likely entail.
But as effective as Putin’s disinformation campaign has been inside Russia, it has been even more successful beyond that country’s borders. This success is not due to all of Moscow’s claims being accepted as true—this is certainly not the case. It is also not because of the presence of a network of Russian agents in Western countries—although such a network definitely exists, and thanks to Moscow’s confidence that this network will not be challenged, much of it is now operating quite openly. Rather, Putin’s disinformation campaign has worked because of a fundamental change in Western journalism and analysis; the existence of a large number of people in government, the business community and the academy whose careers are dependent on maintaining ties with the Russian Federation; and the desire of many Western governments not to infuriate Putin by calling him on his lies lest he behave even worse, cutting off gas supplies to Europe or invading yet another country.
None of these is pleasant to talk about, but each must be faced. First of all, many Western journalists confuse balance with objectivity. That means if anyone is in a position to put out a version of the story, however outrageous, journalists will often report it as one of the points of view out there, especially if the situation is confused or uncertain. And they may do so in ways that work particularly to Moscow’s advantage. Thus, many Western outlets report what Moscow “says,” while describing any Ukrainian government statement as “claims.” Invariably, doing so is called objectivity but in fact it is anything but. Instead, it gives an opening to governments like Putin’s, which are prepared to lie and to spread their lies widely, confident that what they say, however untrue or outrageous, will be reported.
Second, as is common knowledge, there are now so many people in government, the business community, and the academy whose positions, profits or careers are dependent on the maintenance of good relations with the Russian Federation that they not only are unwilling to challenge Russian disinformation. In fact, they are often prepared to promote Russian claims, again however untrue and outrageous. These people are not agents of Moscow, as some suggest, or even “the useful idiots” Vladimir Lenin talked about. Instead, they are a significant constituency, and few of them are prepared to sacrifice their next promotion in government, their next quarterly profits, or their standing as public intellectuals by calling Moscow on its dishonesty. And by not doing so or even more by repeating Moscow’s line in whole or in part, such people ensure that the Kremlin’s disinformation campaign works.
And third, as is tragically the case, many Western governments will not challenge what Moscow is doing because of fears that they will be subject to cutoffs in the supply of gas or be viewed as wanting to restore the Cold War. (The charge that the West is reviving the Cold War is an integral part of Moscow’s disinformation campaign because it distracts attention from what Moscow is doing, justifies Russian actions, and most importantly constrains Western politicians who do not want to be thought people of the past.) Consequently, most but not all Western governments have refused to point out what Moscow is saying is a lie even as they have refused to take the kinds of actions that this situation would appear to demand.
What makes this pattern inside Russia and abroad so disturbing is that unless something fundamental is changed, it virtually guarantees that the Kremlin will have every incentive to engage in more, not less, disinformation and that other governments will conclude that such a strategy is something they could employ as well. As long as disinformation works, there will be more of it, and the world will be a place where trust will deteriorate and violence and the threat of violence become that much more common.
Identifying and Countering Disinformation Is Hard but Necessary Work
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Because the use and even more the spread of disinformation carries with it such risks, it is critically important that Western countries respond in ways that will limit such possibilities. That is going to require three steps: first, it will require that these governments recognize they are dealing with disinformation rather than just lies; second, it means that they will have to develop the kind of expertise to identify specific cases of disinformation and the truths and falsehoods within them; and third, it will necessitate the consideration of methods to deliver its response both with regard to foreign audiences and domestic ones. None of these will be easy to assure; some may prove impossibly difficult.
Recognizing disinformation as a strategy and tactic is the easiest, although few Western governments have been prepared to do so, at least in the case of Putin’s Russia. The definition of disinformation offered above is one place to start. But what will make it hard for Western governments to take this step is that disinformation is part of information war, and information war is an ever more important aspect of war itself. [3] To say that a government is using disinformation as opposed to lying is something few national leaders and even fewer diplomats are prepared to take.
However, assuming that political challenge can be overcome—with the risks of not declaring something to be a disinformation campaign properly recognized as greater than the risks of doing so—Western governments need to develop the kind of expertise that will allow them to analyze specific cases of disinformation. That will require the development of linguistic and area expertise that has languished for too long. The United States needs people who understand not only the language but also the history and culture of major countries around the world and their potential adversaries. Given the decay in such expertise over the last generation, that will not be easy. At a minimum, it will require the restoration of the National Defense Education Act (NDEA) Title VI program and the development of career paths in all parts of the government that will allow individuals to have a full career without having to shift out of their area of expertise. And it will require the restoration of government translation programs like the Foreign Broadcast Information Service. There will be financial costs attached, but these will be relatively small.
The real challenge is the third one: countering disinformation campaigns. That is both a technical issue and a political one. Technically, it requires the development of channels to deliver alternative messages, including international broadcasting. Had the US had in place the capacity to broadcast in Russian to Russian speakers in Ukraine, Putin could not have achieved what he has. And if the US had a capacity to broadcast to the Russian people directly, Moscow would not have been able to shape Russian public opinion in the way that it has.
The era of shortwave broadcasting is over, and FM broadcasting requires that stations in most cases be on the territory of the country to which it is directed. That inevitably gives the host government the whip hand. The development of the Internet is important, but it is not the stand-alone technological solution many imagine. What is necessary is to invest in satellite direct-to-home television broadcasting so that the US and the West can deliver messages to peoples like the Russians who are now captives of their own government’s dis-informing media. Again, accomplishing this will not be free, but the costs of not doing it will be higher. And they will be higher still if Russia or China develops this capacity first.
But the hardest task will be countering disinformation being rebroadcast within Western countries by interested elites. Closing down openly declared institutions like Andrannik Migranyan’s operation in New York [4] is easy, but getting the government involved in countering disinformation within the US is going to be more difficult. That will require a willingness on the part of the government to speak out about themes, if not individuals, because again the costs of not doing so will be higher than those involved in taking such steps.
Notes:
1. See, for example, the continually updated list of exposed Russian propaganda lies at: “Russia’s top 100 lies about Ukraine,” The Examiner, August 11, 2014, <http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-100-lies-about-ukraine>, accessed August 2, 2014.
2. For a concise summary of her views, see: Nathalie Grant, “Disinformation,” National Review, November 1960, <http://www.unz.org/Pub/NationalRev-1960nov05-2g00041>, accessed August 12, 2014.
3. On this point, see the various works of Paul W. Blackstock, especially: The Strategy of Subversion (Chicago, 1964).
4. Andranik Migranyan is director of the Institute for Democracy and Cooperation? in New York, which is responsible for promoting Moscow’s views in the United States. He gained notoriety earlier this year when he suggested that Adolf Hitler would have gone down in history as the greatest German leader of all time if he had stopped before invading Poland.
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=42745&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=7&cHash=6ccbe7697870188378d5960d23bb0f3a#.U-xNGeOSx2p
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Shelling by the terrorists, which they claim was conducted by the Ukrainian army. Watch the videos.
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/298056/dpr_militants_purposefully_shell_residential_areas_destroying_our_homes_to_show_on_russian_tv_residents
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/297854/terrorists_continue_shelling_people_of_mariinka_village_liberated_by_the_ukrainian_soldiers_we_are_like
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46 Russian citizens, all from the Caucasus, surrendered to the Donbas Batalion as it retook Horlivka. More proof of the deep "separatist roots" of the region.
In Lugansk, Alexander Stefanovsky, a Russian citizen from Perm, who had come to help further Russia's expansionist goals, was killed in battle.
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Here is a video of a "fascist" from Western Ukraine. Note his Red Army medals. He is burying his grandson, thanks to Russia's desire to tear Ukraine apart.
Remember this every time you praise Putin.
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/298037/putin_sends_your_grandchildren_to_kill_ours_ukrainian_wwii_veteran_addresses_his_brothersinarms_from
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Shelling by the terrorists, which they claim was conducted by the Ukrainian army. Watch the videos.
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/298056/dpr_militants_purposefully_shell_residential_areas_destroying_our_homes_to_show_on_russian_tv_residents
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/297854/terrorists_continue_shelling_people_of_mariinka_village_liberated_by_the_ukrainian_soldiers_we_are_like
Given the reputation of some of the folks fighting on the Pro-Russian side (Chechnyans and criminals hired by Oligarchs), I would not put a tactic like that past them.
One way you can tell who fired the rounds is to determine where the Ukrainian army was at the time. If they are more than a mile and a half from where the shells landed, it was not them. The artillery/tanks that fired those rounds were approximately 5500-7000 feet away (1,676 - 2,133 meters) from where the rounds landed.
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Here is a video of a "fascist" from Western Ukraine. Note his Red Army medals. He is burying his grandson, thanks to Russia's desire to tear Ukraine apart.
Remember this every time you praise Putin.
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/298037/putin_sends_your_grandchildren_to_kill_ours_ukrainian_wwii_veteran_addresses_his_brothersinarms_from
Что ж у деда-то внук в каратели подался?
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Shelling by the terrorists, which they claim was conducted by the Ukrainian army. Watch the videos.
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/298056/dpr_militants_purposefully_shell_residential_areas_destroying_our_homes_to_show_on_russian_tv_residents
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/297854/terrorists_continue_shelling_people_of_mariinka_village_liberated_by_the_ukrainian_soldiers_we_are_like
А это для полноты картины... у ополченцев фосфорных бомб, вообще-то, нет. Баллистических ракет тоже.
https://www.youtube.com//v/uvMPZqbJiqE#t=20
http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2805-war-in-the-south-east-online-08-14-2014-chronicle.html
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I think this applies to a few folks here.
Putin's Useful (British) Idiots
From Neville Chamberlain to the pages of today’s Guardian, many members of the British elite, left and right, have proved themselves suckers for totalitarianism
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/putin-s-useful-british-idiots.html
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Shelling by the terrorists, which they claim was conducted by the Ukrainian army. Watch the videos.
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/298056/dpr_militants_purposefully_shell_residential_areas_destroying_our_homes_to_show_on_russian_tv_residents
http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/297854/terrorists_continue_shelling_people_of_mariinka_village_liberated_by_the_ukrainian_soldiers_we_are_like
А это для полноты картины... у ополченцев фосфорных бомб, вообще-то, нет. Баллистических ракет тоже.
https://www.youtube.com//v/uvMPZqbJiqE#t=20
http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2805-war-in-the-south-east-online-08-14-2014-chronicle.html
I am sure this will prove to be a fake, much like the story you shared about those 311 Ukrainian soldiers fleeing to Russia for asylum. The use of phosphorus bombs is a very popular meme and there was an earlier fake news report circulating online that also claimed depicted the Ukrainian Army using these bombs, while in reality the footage came from Iraq in 2004 :coffeeread: The only question in my mind is where they dug up the latest video footage...
An example of a news fake where the Ukrainian army was accused of using phosphorus bombs: http://www.stopfake.org/video-2004-goda-iz-iraka-predstavili-kak-aktualnye-sobytiya-pod-slavyanskom/ (http://www.stopfake.org/video-2004-goda-iz-iraka-predstavili-kak-aktualnye-sobytiya-pod-slavyanskom/)
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I am sure this will prove to be a fake, much like the story you shared about those 311 Ukrainian soldiers fleeing to Russia for asylum.
Давай, ссылку в студию. ;D Там было про хохлов, выдавленных из южного котла на территорию России.
Поди сейчас кусают локти, что не остались. Их же снова на фронт погонят, ну и домой уже 200ми вернутся, как эти.
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1732817.html
Про фосфорные бомбы, факт подтвержден. В Краматорске применяли.
Ну а тут салют, не иначе. http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1731909.html (фотографии в ссылке).
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Russia say this just civil war and Russia has nothing to do with this war just send aid. Rebels say they just got 150 pieces of military hardware from somewhere and 1200 men trained in Russia. Someone should get their story straight. See that is all this aid is is away for the rebels to regroup and make the war longer. That is why they want a cease fire. This war is costing about 500 lives a week in the last two weeks and about 1500 injured each week. The longer the war the more people die. Not a good thing if you care about human life.
This is likely the armour column that got threw.
Russia has denied sending troops or weapons to eastern Ukraine, and slammed the claims of the latest military convoy as a "phantom" of Ukraine's imagination.
A rebel leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, one of the breakaway territories where pro-Russian insurgents are fighting Kiev's army, said however that his troops have had a fresh injection of fighters trained across the border.
The rebel reinforcements consist of 150 pieces of hardware and 1,200 personnel "who have received four months of training on Russian territory," Alexander Zakharchenko said at a meeting of rebel leadership Friday, filmed by insurgent website Novorossiya Online
ttp://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-border-officials-inspecting-russian-convoy-kiev-085145166.html
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I looks like the rebels are getting kikked out of Lugansk. Ukrainian Army take the police station of Lugansk and have raised their flag over it. Still alot of work to completely retake the city as redels are still fiighting.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/17/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GH0D520140817
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It would seem a Ukrainian MIG 29 (or an SU 25 depending what you read) has been shot down in the Krasnodon area.
[attachimg=1]
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It was reported the rebels shot down a fighter plane last night, pilot ejected.
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Does any body know where the police station is in Lugansk? I tried to look it up but could not find it. I have been to Lugansk but I never remember seeing the police station. I do not know if the Ukrainian forces are entering the city from the north or from the south. The girl I am writing lived in the north west so I do not know if her house has been liberated yet. She left the city in June before the fighting got too serious.
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Does any body know where the police station is in Lugansk? I tried to look it up but could not find it. I have been to Lugansk but I never remember seeing the police station. I do not know if the Ukrainian forces are entering the city from the north or from the south. The girl I am writing lived in the north west so I do not know if her house has been liberated yet. She left the city in June before the fighting got too serious.
I'd go see her fast if I were you.
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Russia's popularity plummeting
.
http://news.yahoo.com/map-very-bad-news-vladimir-141002512.html
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2014/07/PG-2014-07-09-Russia-Favorability.pdf
Americans and Europeans in particular have
soured on Russia over the past 12 months.
More than six-in-ten in Poland, Germany, Italy,
Spain, France, the U.S. and the UK have an
unfavorable image of Russia. And in all but one
of these countries negative reviews are up by
double digits since last year, including by 29
percentage points in the U.S., 27 points in
Poland, 24 points in the UK and 23 points in
Spain. Greeks stand out among their European
counterparts – just 35% dislike Russia, virtually
unchanged from last year.
Ukrainians’ attitudes toward Russia also have
changed significantly over time. Six-in-ten in
Ukraine rate Russia unfavorably today,
compared with just 11% in 2011, the last time
the question was asked. Within Ukraine, there
are deep divides by region and language. More
than eight-in-ten in the country’s west (83%)
give Russia low marks, compared with 45% in
the east and only 4% in Crimea. Within the
east, Russian-only speakers (28%) are less
negative toward Russia than their neighbors
(58%).
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BCkev, you really need to up your understanding and try very hard to not repeat misinformation as truth.
If you knew what you were going on about you'd know that trucks have load limits for different types of conditions. I have mentioned this before. The trucks going to Lugansk were loaded to about 49% of their capacity by weight because that is the load limit for the expected road and terrain to be crossed. The roads were in very bad condition, partly because of the shelling from junta forces in the days prior to the delivery in addition some backroads were expected to be used, unrepaired for several decades and with bridges with low weight limits, some likely damaged by recent events.
So, yes, in your fantasy world, one where everything is perfect, trucks can be sent at full loads.
Why not at least try to learn something before spouting off the messages with which you have been programmed? Try just a little to be an objective and analytical consumer of the press pablum thrust in front of you. I mean, is it so hard for you to think that it never crossed your mind that roads in Ukraine might not be just the same as the are on your drive to your local shopping mall?
By the way, the 'aid' from the junta? The 19 trucks. Where is it? When was it delivered? Who were the recipients?
This is, almost certainly, as real as all the other claims made by the junta recently and then shoved down the memory hole when shown to be fabrications.
Trucks with this axle configuration would normally have a maximum payload in the 20 to 25 ton range. It was reported that 2,000 tons of `aid` were sent in approximately 300 trucks. Do the math.
Delivery of the aid by the Ukrainian government was reported in the media. It probably wasn`t reported prominently by RT.
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I wonder what the weight was going back to Russia once the trucks were loaded up with ill gotten booty in the way of military manufacturing equipment. I'm sure they were within the fabricated limits (:)
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Well thank God for Chairman Putin for taking the heat off the USA - we do not look so bad now after all...
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Does the guy named Strelkov, own an apartment in Moscow that he lived in until recently, or not? That is what someone I know in real life, is telling me.
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Yes, he lives in Moscow. He claims to be retired GRU, but some Russian military experts claim he works for the FSB.
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Does the guy named Strelkov, own an apartment in Moscow that he lived in until recently, or not? That is what someone I know in real life, is telling me.
Strelkov is apparently not his real name but a nom de guerre. His real name is reported to be Girkin. Strelkov reminds me of the Trotsky character Strelnikov in "Dr. Zhivago" during the Russian Civil War.
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I believe Strelnikov and Strelkov both come from the same word "strelok" (стрелок) meaning "the shooter".
Incidentally reading Dr. Zhivago when I was 10 is what first made me interested in Russia.
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I believe Strelnikov and Strelkov both come from the same word "strelok" (стрелок) meaning "the shooter".
Incidentally reading Dr. Zhivago when I was 10 is what first made me interested in Russia.
:thumbsup:
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I believe Strelnikov and Strelkov both come from the same word "strelok" (стрелок) meaning "the shooter".
Incidentally reading Dr. Zhivago when I was 10 is what first made me interested in Russia.
Seeing the movie Dr. Zhivago as a small child is what first sparked my interest in Russia, especially the Civil War scenes in Siberia. For years I wanted one of those Astrakhan hats some of the cavalrymen wore.
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I believe Strelnikov and Strelkov both come from the same word "strelok" (стрелок) meaning "the shooter".
Incidentally reading Dr. Zhivago when I was 10 is what first made me interested in Russia.
Strelnikoff?
Classic SCTV humor skit for "Strelnikoff Vodka" :
(warning: makes fun of Uzbeks!)
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With the Russian public roused to anti-Ukrainian fury by Russian media it was unwise to hold this rally in support of Ukraine in St. Petersburg:
ATTACKS DISRUPT LOCAL PRO-UKRAINIAN RALLY
By Sergey Chernov
The St. Petersburg Times
A reporter received a concussion as dozens of pro-Kremlin protesters wearing the black and orange St. George ribbon were seen assaulting demonstrators at a rally in support of Ukraine on Ukraine’s independence day in central St. Petersburg on Sunday.
Arseny Vesnin, a reporter with the St. Petersburg branch of the liberal radio station Ekho Moskvy, was briefly hospitalized after he was kicked by a man at the protest — organized by the Democratic St. Petersburg movement — on the corner Malaya Sadovaya Ulitsa and Nevsky Prospekt, St. Petersburg’s main throughway.
Speaking to The St. Petersburg Times this week, Vesnin said that a man — who earlier verbally assaulted him and other people — kicked his tablet computer, which bounced and hit him in the face. According to Vesnin, he was hit as he was preparing to write a post on Twitter. Later, Vesnin was taken to a hospital, where he was diagnosed with a “closed head injury.”
The incident was also caught on a video, showing the man kicking Vesnin, knocking his computer, microphone and spectacles on the ground, and then immediately denying the attack as the protesters appealed to the police. “Stop lying,” the attacker said to Vesnin in the video. “It’s their working tactic,” he then said to the police.
The attacker, who was detained, turned out to be Sergei Smirnov, a 49-year-old activist with the National Liberation Movement (NOD), a pro-Putin movement led by the State Duma’s United Russia deputy Yevgeny Fyodorov.
In his explanatory notes to the police published on the Ekho Moskvy website, Smirnov wrote that Vesnin provoked him and that he “brushed against” the tablet by accident while trying to protect himself from the reporter, who was allegedly sticking the microphone with the Ekho Moskvy logo in his face. Smirnov was charged with “disorderly conduct,” a minor offense punishable with a fine of up to 1,000 rubles ($28) or a prison sentence for up to 15 days.
According to Vesnin, the police appeared reluctant to detain anti-Ukrainian counter-protesters and reacted only to actual beatings. “I think they were not very eager even to detain Smirnov, and did it only after I and everybody else started shouting that a journalist got kicked in the face,” he said.
During the protest, aggressive counter-demonstrators hurled insults at pro-Ukrainian protesters, calling them “fascists,” “traitors,” and the “fifth column,” pushing them as well as seizing and tearing up placards. At least one placard was burnt on the site.
“The people with St. George’s ribbons insulted people, shouted ‘Maidan won’t pass’ and ‘Russia! Russia!’ effectively staging a public rally, but nobody wanted to detain them,” Vesnin said.
“That’s why I went to the police: not because I am mad that someone hit me in the face, it’s something that I could survive without making a fuss. But the point is that I was attacked as a journalist, and a journalist with Ekho Moskvy. If you don’t like the media outlet where a journalist works, does it really mean that you should hit him in the face? It’s inadmissible.
“And the main thing is that I hope to draw attention to the fact that these people with St. George ribbons, these activists, have become totally brazen; they fight in full daylight on the city’s main street and attack their ideological opponents, who stand peacefully, and they’re totally confident of their impunity as the [anti-Ukrainian] hysteria gets stronger in the media. What happened [on Sunday] is the next stage of the brutalization, the next stage of the split in the society.”
The St. George ribbon was introduced in 2005 as an alleged public initiative to commemorate the feats of the Russians in World War II, but it has also been used as a sign of support for pro-Russian insurgents fighting in eastern Ukraine. The ribbon, consisting of a black and orange pattern, is also used in the logo and as the flag of the NOD movement that most of the counter-demonstrators were reported to belong to.
“The NOD is the Kremlin’s organization, it’s headed by deputy Fyodorov,” Vesnin said.
“I think they receive certain instructions. It’s perfectly clear why they came to Malaya Sadovaya. It’s not because they wanted to stage their own rally, but they obviously came to break up the rally in support of Ukrainian unity.”
Organizer Natalya Tsymbalova, an activist with the Democratic St. Petersburg movement, said that the attacks were deliberately misrepresented in the pro-Kremlin media as the reaction of “ordinary St. Petersburg residents” to a pro-Ukrainian event.
“I want to stress that it was not just passing pedestrians who saw us and decided to oppose us, they were organized provocateurs,” Tsymbalova told The St. Petersburg Times this week.
“The activists who stood with placards at a distance from Malaya Sadovaya said it was much quieter there. I was even told that more people supported them than opposed them. I find it hard to believe this though because where I stood it was a complete hell. However, we did have several people break through this shouting crowd to support and thank us.”
http://www.sptimes.ru/story/40625
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a rally in support of Ukraine on Ukraine’s independence day in central St. Petersburg on Sunday.
What did they expect?
Sounds like a cheap publicity stunt. They knew full well Russia has laws against certain types of public demonstrations that may lead to civil unrest. The place to celebrate Ukraine's independence day is in the undisputed part of Ukraine.
Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
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a rally in support of Ukraine on Ukraine’s independence day in central St. Petersburg on Sunday.
What did they expect?
Sounds like a cheap publicity stunt. They knew full well Russia has laws against certain types of public demonstrations that may lead to civil unrest. The place to celebrate Ukraine's independence day is in the undisputed part of Ukraine.
Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
Was the reporter arrested by the cops for causing civil unrest? Or did the guy with the opposing viewpoint, act in a thuggish and unlawful manner?
Equating pro-Kiev supporters with the KKK? It's sort of jingoistic...
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Was the reporter arrested by the cops for causing civil unrest?
Which reporter? The one in Ferguson assaulted by a cop who had his press badge ripped off? Or the reporters the American police tear gassed?
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Was the reporter arrested by the cops for causing civil unrest?
Which reporter? The one in Ferguson assaulted by a cop who had his press badge ripped off? Or the reporters the American police tear gassed?
Yep getting your badge ripped off hurts like hell....There were more reporters there than protesters and police....:-)))))
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a rally in support of Ukraine on Ukraine’s independence day in central St. Petersburg on Sunday.
What did they expect?
Sounds like a cheap publicity stunt. They knew full well Russia has laws against certain types of public demonstrations that may lead to civil unrest. The place to celebrate Ukraine's independence day is in the undisputed part of Ukraine.
Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
The KKK could hold a rally in Ferguson, and if authorities tried to stop it, the ACLU would fight them. There is precedent for this, with a Nazi march through a Jewish neighbourhood in Chicago.
Comparing US and Russian civil rights is rather silly.
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a rally in support of Ukraine on Ukraine’s independence day in central St. Petersburg on Sunday.
What did they expect?
Sounds like a cheap publicity stunt. They knew full well Russia has laws against certain types of public demonstrations that may lead to civil unrest. The place to celebrate Ukraine's independence day is in the undisputed part of Ukraine.
Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
The KKK could hold a rally in Ferguson, and if authorities tried to stop it, the ACLU would fight them. There is precedent for this, with a Nazi march through a Jewish neighbourhood in Chicago.
Comparing US and Russian civil rights is rather silly.
Skokie, IL.
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Was the reporter arrested by the cops for causing civil unrest?
Which reporter? The one in Ferguson assaulted by a cop who had his press badge ripped off? Or the reporters the American police tear gassed?
Sorry for the confusion ... I was referring to the reporter in the article posted above, Arseny Vesnin.
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Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
http://latest.com/2014/08/ku-klux-klan-headed-missouri-hold-fundraiser-cop-guard-white-businesses-ferguson/
They got close! :chuckle: I forgot all about the KKK, can't believe these guys are still at it. Couldn't imagine being so full of hate, then see Americas top athletes, actors, and musicians dominating the media.
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BCkev, you really need to up your understanding and try very hard to not repeat misinformation as truth.
If you knew what you were going on about you'd know that trucks have load limits for different types of conditions. I have mentioned this before. The trucks going to Lugansk were loaded to about 49% of their capacity by weight because that is the load limit for the expected road and terrain to be crossed. The roads were in very bad condition, partly because of the shelling from junta forces in the days prior to the delivery in addition some backroads were expected to be used, unrepaired for several decades and with bridges with low weight limits, some likely damaged by recent events.
So, yes, in your fantasy world, one where everything is perfect, trucks can be sent at full loads.
Why not at least try to learn something before spouting off the messages with which you have been programmed? Try just a little to be an objective and analytical consumer of the press pablum thrust in front of you. I mean, is it so hard for you to think that it never crossed your mind that roads in Ukraine might not be just the same as the are on your drive to your local shopping mall?
you clearly know jack about trucks or load limits in russia or ukraine
or anywhere else
SX
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a rally in support of Ukraine on Ukraine’s independence day in central St. Petersburg on Sunday.
What did they expect?
Sounds like a cheap publicity stunt. They knew full well Russia has laws against certain types of public demonstrations that may lead to civil unrest. The place to celebrate Ukraine's independence day is in the undisputed part of Ukraine.
Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
The KKK could hold a rally in Ferguson, and if authorities tried to stop it, the ACLU would fight them. There is precedent for this, with a Nazi march through a Jewish neighbourhood in Chicago.
Comparing US and Russian civil rights is rather silly.
Skokie, IL.
I stand corrected. IIRC, it became a non event.
I should have also noted the Westboro Baptist Church, comprised solely of one family, as it is a more recent example. Their constitutional right to picket fallen soldiers' funerals was also affirmed by the SCOTUS.
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Oh and just because I think the political images from the beginning need some balence...
(http://kiev1.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/1901389_624293177644514_252315824_n.jpg)
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you clearly know jack about trucks or load limits in russia or ukraine
or anywhere else
SX
Ditto! 20 to 25 tons is a medium to light loads. The normal road limits don't apply to an invading army that isn't worried about the rules of law.
This has already been clearly shown.
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I should have also noted the Westboro Baptist Church, comprised solely of one family, as it is a more recent example. Their constitutional right to picket fallen soldiers' funerals was also affirmed by the SCOTUS.
There is no excuse for the W B Church, they are repulsive.
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Granted. However, they are evidence of America's adherence to the constitutional value of freedom of expression.
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Let ISIS deal with them!
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you clearly know jack about trucks or load limits in russia or ukraine
or anywhere else
SX
Ditto! 20 to 25 tons is a medium to light loads. The normal road limits don't apply to an invading army that isn't worried about the rules of law.
This has already been clearly shown.
Haha. I can just see that...Russian tanks at the border stalled because of a load limit sign. Putin obviously doesn't have any intention of following any laws but his own, a load limit sign is not going to stop him from doing whatever he wants.
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BC, Andy doesn't wish to acknowledge the Ukrainian aid because it doesn't fit the narrative from the masters who apparently pay him to vomit such bullshite. :chuckle:
He and other trolls keep repeating the number 19, another knowing and deliberate falsification.
For a little truth:
- 26 trucks (from Kharkov alone) carrying 220 tonnes, according to the Red Cross which distributed the aid.
- The 19 trucks (from Kiev) were part of a larger but spread out effort that culminated in 75 trucks delivering over 800 tonnes. This was not done in a single convoy, PR stunt style, and neither did they dismantle and steal factory equipment on their way home.
Kudos to Canada: A shipment of new military vehicles issued to Ukraine came from the Western country which shares a special relationship: Canada. Not only armoured personnel carriers, but items like helmets, flak jackets, night vision goggles, etc.
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For those who aren't familiar with the geography:
[attachimg=1]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736529/Russia-directly-involved-fighting-Ukraine-sending-latest-air-defence-systems-border-says-US-ambassador.html
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One of my wife's neighbors from down the street was dragged in to fight the the other day in Ukraine. He is 59 yrs old. They say the draft age was raised recently. FIL is in his mid fifties.
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Actually it is any male between the ages of 18-60 Sasha. Aly's sister's boyfriend just got the call too. It seems that things are going to ramp up quickly there. Aly saw a column of 50 APC's heading east out of her city. I have been telling her to stay away from her parents house, as it is only a few miles from a major AF base.
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Her best friend's brother has been in the fight for a couple of month's now and he has already lost 2-3 good friends. She was given an evacuation plan should her city be threatened. Personally I am trying to get her to Canada as soon as possible along with her daughter and sister. I talked with her dad on Skype and he asked me to take care of his girls.
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Mendy, those APC"s were made not far from where I live in London. I saw them on the news and could not be more proud of our contribution. I am sure more will be on its way, now that we have the ability to airlift such supplies on our own.
Our PM has been under immense pressure to do more from the more than 1 000 000 of Ukrainian decent, as well as those that have special loved ones there. :nod:
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Oh and just because I think the political images from the beginning need some balence...
(http://kiev1.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/1901389_624293177644514_252315824_n.jpg)
:ROFL: I repeat...... :ROFL: Spot on!
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Do we expect to see a KKK rally in Ferguson? Nope. And if we did, no prizes for guessing what happens next.
http://latest.com/2014/08/ku-klux-klan-headed-missouri-hold-fundraiser-cop-guard-white-businesses-ferguson/
They got close! :chuckle: I forgot all about the KKK, can't believe these guys are still at it. Couldn't imagine being so full of hate, then see Americas top athletes, actors, and musicians dominating the media.
I'm not siding with the KKK by any means but the KKK is simply the politically incorrect side while the other side has just as much hate in their bones, but they can easily pawn it off as "police brutality", "racism", etc. because of the politically correct bulls**t society in which I find myself in.
Let's just cut the crap, shall we?!
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Actually it is any male between the ages of 18-60 Sasha. Aly's sister's boyfriend just got the call too. It seems that things are going to ramp up quickly there. Aly saw a column of 50 APC's heading east out of her city. I have been telling her to stay away from her parents house, as it is only a few miles from a major AF base.
Yes, that's what I was told as well. Up to 60 yrs. MIL and FIL live on outskirts of city by a military station as well although Odessa is still quite far from the action. We may fly MIL for a visit over.
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Mendy, those APC"s were made not far from where I live in London. I saw them on the news and could not be more proud of our contribution. I am sure more will be on its way, now that we have the ability to airlift such supplies on our own.
Our PM has been under immense pressure to do more from the more than 1 000 000 of Ukrainian decent, as well as those that have special loved ones there. :nod:
I was happy to hear the news also, unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything in the news out here. Could you tell me the source?
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Actually it is any male between the ages of 18-60 Sasha. Aly's sister's boyfriend just got the call too. It seems that things are going to ramp up quickly there. Aly saw a column of 50 APC's heading east out of her city. I have been telling her to stay away from her parents house, as it is only a few miles from a major AF base.
Yes, that's what I was told as well. Up to 60 yrs. MIL and FIL live on outskirts of city by a military station as well although Odessa is still quite far from the action. We may fly MIL for a visit over.
Everyone you meet seems to have someone directly involved now-it is a very emotional issue in Ukraine.I attended a rally yesterday that was addressed by many local dignitaries,sportspeople etc but the standing ovation and chant for the military guy in charge went for 5 solid minutes when he came to the microphone.
It is nice to see the empathy of those on the forums that do have Ukrainian connection !! As for the others-- I wish you were here!! ( LoL)
For Sasha( & Halo)--only place I can say this where you will see it!! I think you were right about the fish cost etc In Odessa fish price is high--both in restaurants and supermarkets ( I have not looked this time at markets yet) . I am told it is mostly imported here-which given the location is a surprise.
As I said previously on fish--I have seen locally caught fish that was cheapish being sold roadside - and also in markets where cost was reasonable.(that was not in Odessa where Sasha was quoting)
Perhaps the higher price of fish is what created the allure of sushi for girls who saw/see it as upmarket?
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Looks like a ship has been hit.
http://www.voanews.com/content/poroshenko-seeks-european-union-support/2433155.html (http://www.voanews.com/content/poroshenko-seeks-european-union-support/2433155.html)
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For Sasha( & Halo)--only place I can say this where you will see it!! I think you were right about the fish cost etc In Odessa fish price is high--both in restaurants and supermarkets ( I have not looked this time at markets yet) . I am told it is mostly imported here-which given the location is a surprise.
As I said previously on fish--I have seen locally caught fish that was cheapish being sold roadside - and also in markets where cost was reasonable.(that was not in Odessa where Sasha was quoting)
Perhaps the higher price of fish is what created the allure of sushi for girls who saw/see it as upmarket?
When visiting I did not see much in regards to fish. There were vendors selling cheaper dried fish on the beaches and some fish in the markets, but not what I would personally consider good quality. Fish like Salmon or Tuna is definitely imported and more costly. As you can see most of the fish that are found in the Black Sea are what we would consider bait fish over here. Looks like the Black Sea has been overfished and not managed correctly as well, so the apex predator fish are very low in numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fish_of_the_Black_Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fish_of_the_Black_Sea)
I would agree that sushi is alluring due to slightly higher cost and it is still relatively new. Probably a novelty like it was in the US many decades ago.
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Looks like a ship has been hit.
http://www.voanews.com/content/poroshenko-seeks-european-union-support/2433155.html (http://www.voanews.com/content/poroshenko-seeks-european-union-support/2433155.html)
Yes, I read that a while ago. The rebels have sunk a Ukrainian boat.
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http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-herlihy-russia-ukraine-odessa-20140501-story.html
After I read this irrelevancy packed, emotional article, I was surprised that it was written by a professor of history emerita at Brown University, Patricia Herlihy. Then, I discovered that she is also a professor at the Watson Institute for International Studies, a group that worked very hard for the Bush administration to "reduce" the number of dead Iraqi civilians as a result of our search for the mythical WMDs. As always, the devil is in the details.
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TomT, it is quite clearly headed as an Op-Ed and makes no claim to being anything else.
The points about the history and sociology of Odessa is fairly accurate actually.
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There was a big criminal element in Odesa because it was a port. More cocaine was consumed in Russia than anywhere else in the 19th century. But, I don't think the article in accurate in terms of the government abandoned Odesa.
Also, the reason Lenin ceded the lands to Ukraine was because he didn't want to have to feed them. Someone may want to inform Putin, as he has expressed confusion on this issue.
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TomT, it is quite clearly headed as an Op-Ed and makes no claim to being anything else.
It strikes me as part of a disinformation campaign, funded by some United States agency or another.
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A report on the Donetsk woman the terrorists tortured.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29001361
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Soon the Russian troops in the Ukraine will likely be called peace keepers.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28971901
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A Russian journalist friend, who has a sense of humour even as we disagree on much of the current conflict, sent a list and couple of videos. Sure, he was trying to rub in in a little, but he insists that Vova sent these things in honour of my birthday, and as that was the day they arrived, the tie-in seemed kind of obvious.
I responded back that I hoped Ukraine would graciously return some of these men pictured--dressed out in black body bags. Dark humour? Surely. In reality, I just wish that the fighting would stop, the Russian security men pretending to be rebels would go home, and that Ukrainians be allowed to choose their own destiny. That being said, I'm with others who love Ukraine, but don't see a viable future if tied strictly to the West. But good or bad, Ukrainians should have the right to make that decision.
I'm not an arms dealing kind of guy, so will have to rely on his evaluation of the list:
- Six to seven tanks and several BMPs headed for the south. (I know what tanks are, but had to ask about the "BMP.")
- Four T-72B tanks—at least one of them outfitted with the new Russian Kontakt-5 reactive armour, were headed for the north of Lugansk according to his taunts.
- Four MTLB armored vehicles with ZU-23 guns.
- Three trucks hauling D-30 howitzers.
- Two BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles.
- At least one Strela-10 (SA-13) air defense missile system.
Damn, I'd have thought it was the Twelve days of Christmas! Which of course begs the question of, "if Vova cares this much for my birthday, what will he do for a New Year's gift?!" I'm getting the vapors; the suspense threatens to overwhelm me to the point of wetting my pants with anticipation.
For those unfortunates who were limited in education, yes there is a Sverdlovsk in Ukraine -- as you can see here.
I also congratulated my cohort for what a great country he has: Where else can armed soldiers take a holiday to go off to be killed in a neighboring country, yet receive a military funeral and leave their widows with state pensions?! Even more, what nation allows them to do that while wearing their own uniforms, and driving their issued tanks, missiles and armoured carriers while on the holiday? It is like an executive who can use the company car for both business and pleasure!
What a country!
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Not bad for a bunch of guys on vacation. Oh wait Vladi said there was no Russian military presence in Ukraine. I guess the rebels went to the surplus store across the border and just picked some of the latest military hardware Russia has to offer.
Thanks Mendy for providing the proof that so many people that have their heads in the sand as to whom the true junta is. Putin is driving Russia into the ground. Time will tell how this all turns out. I must add, he looks more and more paranoid. Why is that if everyone in the world loves him just so much?
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A friend in Ukraine called and gave me this URL which shows the events occurring in Ukraine.
http://liveuamap.com (http://liveuamap.com)
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Looks like the resourceful separatists were able to get their hands on some cluster bombs. (:)
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/09/1/7036380/ (http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/09/1/7036380/)
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Amazing what a fellow can pick up at the amy Navy these days,
must be cheap considering the average salary in Ukraine. :chuckle:
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Well I have to say that this disjointed editorial policy of seperating the Russian and Ukrainian threads sure makes for a crappy read.
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You miss the point. America and the mainland EU are at one in the constant covert war against Russia,
:))))
Do you know ANYTHING about Moscow's constant undermining of Kiev for the last decade?..
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The latest report from the OSCE states that over the past week thousands of people, many in military fatigues, have been crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine, a reversal of the previous trend which saw net crossings into Russia.
http://www.osce.org/om/123151
Common observations at the Border Crossing Points
Throughout the week, the OTs noticed a net increase of young people (both men and women) wearing military-style dress crossing the border in both directions but did not observe any weapons among these groups. OTs had regular interactions with supporters of the self-proclaimed republics. Some discussed openly with the OSCE while others expressed their total mistrust toward the OSCE. At both Border Crossing Points, some supporters of the self-proclaimed republics explained that they are not allowed to cross the border with weapons. However, on the other side, there are organized places where they receive weapons, ammunition and equipment and are dispatched to their assigned areas on the Ukrainian side. Upon return, they hand over weapons, ammunition and other military equipment and cross back into the Russian Federation. In the case of Gukovo, there is even a firing range to calibre the newly-received weapons before continuing to the frontlines. As described in previous reports, on a daily basis OTs hear such range-like shootings on Ukrainian territory at a short distance from the Gukovo Border Crossing Point.
Observation at the Gukovo Border Crossing Point
In the past week, close to 2,000 people have returned to Ukraine through the Gukovo Border Crossing Point each day.
Observation at the Donetsk Border Crossing Point
In the past week close to 1,900 people have returned to Ukraine through the Donetsk Border Crossing Point each day.
Throughout the week, OTs observed a net increase in activity of young people dressed in military style crossing back and forth at the Border Crossing Point. OTs also observed some of these people visibly wounded crossing back into the Russian Federation with white bandages and/or crutches. OTs also observed transfers of more seriously-wounded persons by ambulances. Some people dressed in military style were accompanying the wounded and were particularly well-equipped including holsters but without weapons.
In one instance, an OT observed eight young men dressed in military style carrying two heavy stretchers loaded with boxes. The stretchers were visibly heavy (more than a hundred kilograms) because the groups were stopping every 30 to 50 metres to recover. The OT observed Border Crossing Point officials checking the boxes with metal detectors. The OT asked Border Crossing Point officials about the content of the boxes and was told that it was food products.
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The latest report from the OSCE states that over the past week thousands of people, many in military fatigues, have been crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine, a reversal of the previous trend which saw net crossings into Russia.
http://www.osce.org/om/123151
Quite
The plight of Mariupol seems to be underplayed in w.media- it's as if we've run up the white flag in Ukraine
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we've run up the white flag in Ukraine
Who is we?
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Top Ten Ways You Can Tell if Russia Has Invaded Ukraine
(http://ronpaulinstitute.org/media/119364/NEWS_Russia-Invades_240x160.jpg) Written by Dmitry Orlov
NEWS Russia Invades
Last Thursday the Ukrainian government, echoed by NATO spokesmen, declared that the Russian military is now operating within Ukraine's borders. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't; what do you know? They said the same thing before, most recently on August 13, and then on August 17, each time with either no evidence or fake evidence. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
You be the judge. I put together this helpful list of top ten telltale signs that will allow you to determine whether indeed Russia invaded Ukraine last Thursday, or whether Thursday's announcement is yet another confabulation. (Credit to Roman Kretsul).
Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/september/01/top-ten-ways-you-can-tell-if-russia-has-invaded-ukraine.aspx
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we've run up the white flag in Ukraine
Who is we?
UK / USA - we have promised to protect Ukraine's integrity - Budapest memorandum ?
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Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon.
Moscow - under putin - doesn't admit Russian military personnel are involved in any dastardly deed.
the ronpaulinstitute would be in denial even if Putin admitted it :laugh:
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Top Ten Ways You Can Tell if Russia Has Invaded Ukraine
(http://ronpaulinstitute.org/media/119364/NEWS_Russia-Invades_240x160.jpg) Written by Dmitry Orlov
NEWS Russia Invades
Last Thursday the Ukrainian government, echoed by NATO spokesmen, declared that the Russian military is now operating within Ukraine's borders. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't; what do you know? They said the same thing before, most recently on August 13, and then on August 17, each time with either no evidence or fake evidence. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
You be the judge. I put together this helpful list of top ten telltale signs that will allow you to determine whether indeed Russia invaded Ukraine last Thursday, or whether Thursday's announcement is yet another confabulation. (Credit to Roman Kretsul).
Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/september/01/top-ten-ways-you-can-tell-if-russia-has-invaded-ukraine.aspx
So the OSCE, whose report Mr. Mann linked, and which has independent, neutral observers, is wrong?
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Top Ten Ways You Can Tell if Russia Has Invaded Ukraine
(http://ronpaulinstitute.org/media/119364/NEWS_Russia-Invades_240x160.jpg) Written by Dmitry Orlov
NEWS Russia Invades
Last Thursday the Ukrainian government, echoed by NATO spokesmen, declared that the Russian military is now operating within Ukraine's borders. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't; what do you know? They said the same thing before, most recently on August 13, and then on August 17, each time with either no evidence or fake evidence. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
You be the judge. I put together this helpful list of top ten telltale signs that will allow you to determine whether indeed Russia invaded Ukraine last Thursday, or whether Thursday's announcement is yet another confabulation. (Credit to Roman Kretsul).
Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/september/01/top-ten-ways-you-can-tell-if-russia-has-invaded-ukraine.aspx
So the OSCE, whose report Mr. Mann linked, and which has independent, neutral observers, is wrong?
Wich one from those 10 positions mention in the article you could see now?
PS ( BTW what exactly in the OSCE report do you see like "Russian army"?)
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The oft-repeated statement that if Russia had invaded then we'd all know about it (by seeing an overwhelming superiority on the ground and a swift total victory) is a very poor argument.
If Russia mobilised the full force of its armed services then that might well be the case. None of the "western" governments are suggesting that however, they're suggesting that Russia has committed a few thousands troops and a significant amount of armour and weaponry to turn the tide of battle in the favour of the separatists while still attempting to preserve the concept of plausible deniability.
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The oft-repeated statement that if Russia had invaded then we'd all know about it (by seeing an overwhelming superiority on the ground and a swift total victory) is a very poor argument.
If Russia mobilised the full force of its armed services then that might well be the case. None of the "western" governments are suggesting that however, they're suggesting that Russia has committed a few thousands troops and a significant amount of armour and weaponry to turn the tide of battle in the favour of the separatists while still attempting to preserve the concept of plausible deniability.
"suggesting"? please give me a synonym for this word as I have only something wich is close to "it's what we have in our brains but not for sure as we can't get a proove for that"
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"suggesting"? please give me a synonym for this word
Weight of circumstantial evidence.
Lena, do you believe that all those hundreds of Russian soldiers were killed and injured in training exercises?
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The oft-repeated statement that if Russia had invaded then we'd all know about it (by seeing an overwhelming superiority on the ground and a swift total victory) is a very poor argument.
If Russia mobilised the full force of its armed services then that might well be the case. None of the "western" governments are suggesting that however, they're suggesting that Russia has committed a few thousands troops and a significant amount of armour and weaponry to turn the tide of battle in the favour of the separatists while still attempting to preserve the concept of plausible deniability.
If Russia mobilised the full force of its armed services then that might well be the case. None of the "western" governments are suggesting that however, they're suggesting that Russia has committed a few thousands troops and a significant amount of armour and weaponry to turn the tide of battle in the favour of the separatists while still attempting to preserve the concept of plausible deniability.
quite..
I wonder how the dnr/lc (sic) suddenly opened a new S.E front running along the Ukraine coast - seeing at the time the Ukrainian military controlled that frontier and that area of S.E Ukraine ?
Tanks are appearing near Mariupol that Ukraine has never had ...
quoting rain tv (russia)
''There is no official war with Ukraine, wrote the editor of Rain TV, Mikhail Zygar, on his blog. "There are only fresh graves and the bodies of the soldiers who no one recognises as dead."
The Russian Committee of Soldiers Mother's knows damn well that their kids are being secretly sent to Ukraine .. their mistake was to protest - now their organisation is regarded as 'foreign funded' ..open to humiliation, censure and closure
This is how Moscow treats opposition
http://tvrain.ru/articles/sojuz_komitetov_soldatskih_materej_soobschil_o_nasilnoj_otpravke_soldat_v_ukrainu-374649/ (http://tvrain.ru/articles/sojuz_komitetov_soldatskih_materej_soobschil_o_nasilnoj_otpravke_soldat_v_ukrainu-374649/)
needs translating
List of Russian soldiers captured / killed in Ukraine
http://tvrain.ru/soldat/ (http://tvrain.ru/soldat/)
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Prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk isn't very happy about today's truce. He referred to it as Putin's "... attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the international community." He went on to call Russia a terrorist state and proposed that a steel fence be erected between the two countries over the entire length (1400 miles) of their border.
It's dumbass, and unintentionally humorous, remarks such as these that make me happy that the United States doesn't have a prime minister. (We have John Kerry, however.)
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He referred to it as Putin's "... attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the international community."
I agree with that, partially.
He went on to call Russia a terrorist state
There is some element of truth to that, too.
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The cease fire was signed, and in some areas fighting has died down to almost nothing. Several reports however indicate that folks in Mariupol will not be so fortunate. Although Mariupol was held by Ukraine, Andrey Kelin, the Russian ambassador to the OSCE, spoke to a CNN anchor and he said that it would be necessary for rebels to "liberate" Mariupol before the cease fire could take effect in that region. Russia demanded that Ukrainian Army forces leave Mariupol for the cease fire to be observed, and columns of Ukrainian forces were leaving in the late afternoon.
Shelling could still be heard from Russian positions outside the city. A reporter for Al Jazeera who stayed in the city said that separatist rebels and Russian forces stopped firing sometime after 6pm.
Although the peace plan was primarily authored by Vladimir Putin, and Russia has denied the obvious presence of troops operating in Ukraine, Russia will refuse to remove Russian troops and equipment already inside Ukraine.
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... Russia will refuse to remove Russian troops and equipment already inside Ukraine.
Of course Russia won't remove their assets from the separatist areas; Ukraine lost, and spoils don't go to losers. The forum members (the majority) who were tittering about the loss of separatist-controlled territory and the encirclement of Lugansk and Donetsk in August should take note of the map now. One side applied lessons learned very astutely and the other prosecuted the war with recklessness and stupidity.
Oddly, the defining moment was not recent and was not in the contested territory; it occurred at the Odessa Customs Union building. As I recall, many members were pleased when the "terrorists" were burned alive. Putin won't forget and the consequences of that event are not over. If Poroshenko had any sense, and wants to reduce the risk of losing more territory, he would turn the water, gas and electricity back on.
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Of course Russia won't remove their assets from the separatist areas; Ukraine lost, and spoils don't go to losers.
Mariupol wasn't a "separatist" area, and that is why the Russian ambassador insisted that Russian troops "liberate" the city before the cease fire could be observed. However it certainly doesn't hurt Russia to control Black Sea access--and the oil reserves supposedly contained there. Much like the cease fire after the Georgian war, Russia will first take what they want, then feign to comply with the agreements they signed.
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Of course Russia won't remove their assets from the separatist areas; Ukraine lost, and spoils don't go to losers.
Mariupol wasn't a "separatist" area, and that is why the Russian ambassador insisted that Russian troops "liberate" the city before the cease fire could be observed. However it certainly doesn't hurt Russia to control Black Sea access--and the oil reserves supposedly contained there. Much like the cease fire after the Georgian war, Russia will first take what they want, then feign to comply with the agreements they signed.
Perhaps a different understanding of the word "separatist" is called for. As in, "Russian troops will separate from adjoining countries whatever parts Russia wishes."
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The real question here is the war over or is it just entering a new phase? The Separatist are saying they still want to be completely separated and are not happy with the size of their land. Their seems to be a fear in some in the Ukraine that the separatist are looking to regroup and start taking over buildings again or find new ways to expland.
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The forum members (the majority) who were tittering about the loss of separatist-controlled territory and the encirclement of Lugansk and Donetsk in August should take note of the map now. One side applied lessons learned very astutely and the other prosecuted the war with recklessness and stupidity.
The terrorists did not apply lessons astutely.
The Ukrainians' mistakes were in allowing their military to lapse after the Soviet collapse, and giving up their nukes with the promise their security would be protected.
Oddly, the defining moment was not recent and was not in the contested territory; it occurred at the Odessa Customs Union building.
No it wasn't. The terrorists had already established their "republics" by the time that occurred.
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Mariupol wasn't a "separatist" area...
The residents of Mariupol took part in the referendum to separate from Ukraine and become part of the Donetsk People's Republic. That seems pretty separatist-like to me.
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Mariupol wasn't a "separatist" area...
The residents of Mariupol took part in the referendum to separate from Ukraine and become part of the Donetsk People's Republic. That seems pretty separatist-like to me.
I watched a report last night that supports quite the opposite view in that they do not want the Russians there and want to remain part of Ukraine, just like Donetsk and Lugansk still technically and legally are.
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No more cease fire. Shells are falling from RUSSIAN artillery once again in Mariupol. Apparently Putin still wants his land bridge and deposits of oil and gas.
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No more cease fire. Shells are falling from RUSSIAN artillery once again in Mariupol. Apparently Putin still wants his land bridge and deposits of oil and gas.
Apparently, some Ukrainian army units aren't evacuating. They can go home in body bags, then.
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The separatists terrorists did not apply lessons astutely.
Sure they did; they closed off the southerly route that the junta used to encircle Donestsk and Lugansk.
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No, the Russian army did that.
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:fighting0025: No Tom, they didn't. But it is still F***ING Ukraine. How far do they have to go. It is the RUSSIANS that need to leave.
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Of course Russia won't remove their assets from the separatist areas; Ukraine lost, and spoils don't go to losers.
Mariupol wasn't a "separatist" area, and that is why the Russian ambassador insisted that Russian troops "liberate" the city before the cease fire could be observed. However it certainly doesn't hurt Russia to control Black Sea access--and the oil reserves supposedly contained there. Much like the cease fire after the Georgian war, Russia will first take what they want, then feign to comply with the agreements they signed.
Russia did not honor the Budapest Memorandum, why would they honor anything since then? Any "cease fire" agreement is just an illusion to allow Putin more time to move his pieces on the Chess board which are already inside of Ukraine.
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The problem is I know at least 3 people that are directly involved in this conflict. My friend Vlad, Aly's best friend's 20YO brother, and my future SIL's fiance. So Tom before you start making off the cuff remarks about body bags, you best remember there are people that are directly involved here in this conflict. I am speaking on both sides of course!
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rather symbolic
Mariuple Ukrainina tank with sign " To Moscow" crashed against antitank barriers with sign "Stop the war"
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The problem is I know at least 3 people that are directly involved in this conflict. My friend Vlad, Aly's best friend's 20YO brother, and my future SIL's fiance. So Tom before you start making off the cuff remarks about body bags, you best remember there are people here that are directly involved here in this conflict. I am speaking on both sides of course!
How exactly did it happen they appeared to be involved in killing each others? Are they voluntaries fighting for "idea"? On which side? Or what?
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No Net. The only one that could be considered voluntary would be the 20 YO. He was in military school when he was called to the front line. The other 2 were conscripted into the military.
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I just hope nothing leaks out from any of the US biological labs on the border of Ukraine and Russia. That would be disastrous and wipe out most of the population in that area.
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No, the Russian army did that.
No, it was Ukraininan "guard" who broke agreements
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No Net. The only one that could be considered voluntary would be the 20 YO. He was in military school when he was called to the front line. The other 2 were conscripted into the military.
Well the most safe place for them is Russian territory - etter they run there at first opportunity - no jokes and no sarcasm
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No Net. If there was not any Russian military intervention then we would not even be having this conversation. I am not saying that the west is innocent in all this, but it all started when the President did not live up to his promise of pursuing EU membership. It is no secret as to how corrupt this man was.
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No, the Russian army did that.
No, it was Ukraininan "guard" who broke agreements
I wasn't referring to the agreements.
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Apparently, some Ukrainian army units aren't evacuating.
No, plenty of video evidence that they did leave. Even the Russians say they left. The volunteer units, not part of the regular army apparently have stayed at the request of city officials.
Remember that the legitimate government in the region, Kiev, as opposed to the unelected junta backed by Russian separatists, declared Mariupol as the temporarily capital of the Donetsk region--precisely because the local loyalties to Ukraine.
I'm amazed that supposedly, a city that is inhabited by a majority of ethnic Ukrainians would need Russian "protection," especially if you add the Greek and Jewish populations with the Ukrainians. But when it comes to the despot in Moscow, should things shouldn't be surprising I guess.
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Thanks Mendy. Voice of reason comes through again.
To the mods, I apologize for my language a post or two ago. If you deem that it needs to be deleted, I will not be offended. I have been dealing with the tears and fears of Aly and her daughter for the last couple of weeks and I have been a little on edge the last couple of days now.
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You have nothing to apologize for, Smitty.
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You have nothing to apologize for, Smitty.
You don't, smitty.
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Thanks guys. It has been a tough couple of days with no sleep.
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No more cease fire. Shells are falling from RUSSIAN artillery once again in Mariupol. Apparently Putin still wants his land bridge and deposits of oil and gas.
Apparently, some Ukrainian army units aren't evacuating. They can go home in body bags, then.
Wow, you're just a peach, aren't you?
:censored:
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I think it's fair to say the ceasefire/truce is over. Sounds like everyone has had time to resupply and reload. Sporadic heavy artillery barrages and machine gun fire could be heard early Sunday on the outskirts of the southeastern Ukrainian city of Mariupol. Shelling in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions by the Ukrainian military and pro-Russian separatists and probably even the Russian military.
Amnesty International blames everyone and will be visiting Kiev and Moscow.
The Source (http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/06/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29)
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Putin is under Satan's influence
I knew it!
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-under-satans-influence-leader-kiev-orthodox-church-142555843.html
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Mariupol wasn't a "separatist" area...
The residents of Mariupol took part in the referendum to separate from Ukraine and become part of the Donetsk People's Republic. That seems pretty separatist-like to me.
The "separatists" were then run off by the residents of Mariupol. Clearly, they didn't have the support of the people.
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Thanks Mendy. Voice of reason comes through again.
To the mods, I apologize for my language a post or two ago. If you deem that it needs to be deleted, I will not be offended. I have been dealing with the tears and fears of Aly and her daughter for the last couple of weeks and I have been a little on edge the last couple of days now.
Dont worry about forum-- despite some here have less than zero empathy for others lives, the large marjority do have and understand that many who post here do have family and friends directly involved in this conflict.
All over Ukraine it is a huge emotional issue--and impossible not to feel that emotion and anguish.
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The volunteer units, not part of the regular army apparently have stayed at the request of city officials.
There was a report on the Guardian that the Azov battalion is still in town. If the city officials throw in with neo-Nazis, a move that virtually guarantees the end of the cease-fire, then the consequences are on their heads.
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Dont worry about forum-- despite some here have [no recent experience and] less than zero empathy for others lives, the large marjority do have and understand that many who post here do have family and friends directly involved in this conflict.
All over Ukraine it is a huge emotional issue--and impossible not to feel that emotion and anguish.
Keep trying, Jay; if you endlessly repeat the comments of others and present the ideas as your own, you may eventually pass yourself off as normal. I'm sure that you have plenty of empathy for the wackos in the Ukrainian government who got their country into this crap. God knows, you've been applauding them all the way down their road to hell.
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If the city officials throw in with neo-Nazis
I do not foresee them throwing in with Russian nationalists. :)
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In the following conditions of the ceasefire, I don't see anything requiring the Ukrainian military to move out of Mariupol. So what was Mendy posting about? This Russian ambassador has a different understanding of the ceasefire agreement?
the Russian ambassador insisted that Russian troops "liberate" the city before the cease fire could be observed.
The so-called Ukraine Contact Group made up of representatives of the OSCE, Russia and Ukraine "reached an understanding on the need to carry out the following steps", according to the document supplied in Russian:
1. Ensure an immediate bilateral ceasefire.
2. Ensure monitoring and verification by the OSCE of the ceasefire regime.
3. Carry out decentralisation of power, allowing temporary local self-government in areas of Donetsk and Lugansk in eastern Ukraine under a "special status" law.
4. Ensure constant active monitoring by the OSCE of the Ukraine-Russia border, along with the creation of a security zone in border areas.
5. Immediately free all prisoners and illegally detained persons.
6. Pass a law against the prosecution and punishment of people over certain events in Donetsk and Lugansk regions.
7. Continue inclusive national dialogue.
8. Take measures to improve the humanitarian situation in the Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk).
9. Ensure the holding of snap local elections in Donetsk and Lugansk.
10. Remove illegal armed groups, military hardware, and all fighters and mercenaries from Ukrainian territory.
11. Adopt a programme to help the economic revival of the Donbass and restore activity in the region.
12. Guarantee the personal safety of the participants of the consultations.
The plan was signed by OSCE envoy Heidi Tagliavini, former Ukraine president Leonid Kuchma, the Russian ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov, and rebel leaders Alexander Zakharchenko and Igor Plotnitsky.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140907/main-points-ukraine-ceasefire-protocol
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That link doesn't mention one of Putin's key points:
"Ukrainian artillery to pull back and out of range of the eastern separatists’ strongholds."
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Here's a good example of some of the BS that is flying:
"A senior aide [Yuri Lutsenko] to Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko said on Sunday that Kiev had reached agreement during the NATO summit in Wales on the provision of weapons and military advisers from five member states [United States, France, Italy, Poland and Norway] of the alliance.
However, four of the five swiftly denied making any such pledge.
A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, denied that the United States had made such a pledge. The official told Reuters, 'No U.S. offer of lethal assistance has been made to Ukraine.'
Asked about Lutsenko's comments, defense ministry officials in Italy, Poland and Norway also denied plans to provide arms.
In France, an aide at the Elysee palace declined to comment."
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That link doesn't mention one of Putin's key points:
"Ukrainian artillery to pull back and out of range of the eastern separatists’ strongholds."
My understanding is that this point was part of Putin's proposal prior to the September 5 cease fire agreement. Whether or not it was included in the agreement remains to be seen. It does appear that there is more to this agreement than what I posted.
If you come across more complete text of this agreement, please post it.
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They never forgive
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I think we heard the same BS being slung by Putin and his cronies. In fact, he is still in full denial as more and more arms and armor flows across the border.
Neither side is being up front about any of this Tom.
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I was referring to a different type of BS. Yuri Letsenko's alleged comments were so easy to debunk that he would have to be a complete moron to make such claims. He could be a complete moron but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a planted story as a part of a disinformation campaign.
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Or Western powers denying something they intend to do more covertly.
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That link doesn't mention one of Putin's key points:
"Ukrainian artillery to pull back and out of range of the eastern separatists’ strongholds."
It wasn't in the agreed protocol.
The text is here.
http://www.osce.org/home/123257
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Tom I watch RT, CNN, CTV, and CBC. There has been disinformation from all sides. The problem that I have is that a lot of innocent people are being caught up in all this mess. That is the bottom line. Putin is no saint, nor is Porosehenko. Both sides have lost control of certain factions, and now the people of Ukraine are paying the ultimate price.
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Thanks Halo, I cannot see the west promoting that they are sending "lethal aid" to a non-NATO member. That is the point I was making with Tom when I wrote earlier.
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Or Western powers denying something they intend to do more covertly.
Most likely scenario.
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Dont worry about forum-- despite some here have [no recent experience and] less than zero empathy for others lives, the large majority do have and understand that many who post here do have family and friends directly involved in this conflict.
All over Ukraine it is a huge emotional issue--and impossible not to feel that emotion and anguish.
Keep trying, Jay; if you endlessly repeat the comments of others and present the ideas as your own, you may eventually pass yourself off as normal. I'm sure that you have plenty of empathy for the wackos in the Ukrainian government who got their country into this crap. God knows, you've been applauding them all the way down their road to hell.
Even if you were correct-- and for the umpteenth thousand time you are wrong again -- on each point. Maybe you may be correct on one point-the conclusions I reached on you were not original-but a well worn path!!! ;D It is good to see you instantly put yourself in the no-nothing category--but really-- there was no need as almost everyone can see that for themselves.
Yours( and others) disgusting cheerleading gloating for the deaths of good Ukrainians as the separatists hide behind the civilian population in a pathetic attempt to blind the russian public and the world to the fact that russia and near enough russia alone was responsible for unrest and invasion and war being carried out in eastern Ukraine. Which-- btw- is Ukrainian sovereign territory and in case you missed it-part of agreements that russia was a party to guaranteeing that Ukrainian sovereignty.It all adds up to the total untrustworthiness of russia-- but specifically of putin and the current crop of kremlin kleptocrats.
What really makes me laugh at our "friend" is how some are incapable of picking up basic clues on what the west is doing now-- do you really think the western countries are stupid enough to give advance notice that the ante is being upped?
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This is your twin, from whom you were separated at birth. Arseniy Yatsenyuk is a weird, vile bugger who couldn't keep his mouth shut if his country's survival depended upon it. 82% of the Rada voted for him, so one might conclude that this ugly face is the face that Ukraine's parliament wants to present to the world. The ugliness is not only on the outside, however; his inflammatory comments are going to get many of his countrymen killed, as would yours, if you were ever in a position of power and responsibility.
If the West has the poor judgment to arm Ukraine, you will have plenty of things to bitch and moan about (your favorite activity). Of course, you would blame me, and people like me, for the carnage that follows when, in fact, the blame would fall to people like you and Arseniy. From my side, I would prefer to see the residents chart their own future, whatever that might be, without any interference from the wackjobs of the world, whether through direct involvement or from your mum's basement.
[attachimg=1]
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Tom, Yatseniuk is merely stating what many, likely a majority, of Ukrainians believe.
I was not, and am not, a fan, but I don't think most of his positions, particularly on the financial side, have been bad. Where he has failed, as a politician, is in getting enough votes to implement difficult reforms.
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Tom, Yatseniuk is merely stating what many, likely a majority, of Ukrainians believe.
If you are correct, then a lot of Darwin awards are going to be presented in the near future.
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I don't know about that. Your country managed to invade two nations in a "war on terror" changing the landscape of the region (not for the better), with plenty of support. Yet, the Darwin factor has not had any noticeable effect.
Being invaded, whether directly or by a foreign proxy, tends to generate emotional responses. Particularly on lands where history tells Ukrainians that Russians invading their lands is generally not a good thing for them, socially, politically, culturally, linguistically, or economically.
Have a look at the graphic photos of Russian special forces, together with the "freedom fighters" posted online yesterday. Warning - very graphic. Can you not understand why emotions are running high?
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/301622/spetsnaz_rf_fotografiruetsya_na_fone_iskalechennyh_tel_ukrainskih_voinov_i_topchetsya_po_ukrainskomu
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RT video of "rebels" shelling a Ukrainian village. Of course, the Ukrainophobes will claim the damage was caused by the Ukrainian army.
Listen to the non Ukrainian accent of the "local Donbas rebel".
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RT video of "rebels" shelling a Ukrainian village.
Where does it say they are firing on a village? It doesn't. You made that up.
Your little bits of misrepresentation don't go unnoticed.
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I don't know about that. Your country managed to invade two nations in a "war on terror" changing the landscape of the region (not for the better), with plenty of support. Yet, the Darwin factor has not had any noticeable effect.
Being invaded, whether directly or by a foreign proxy, tends to generate emotional responses. Particularly on lands where history tells Ukrainians that Russians invading their lands is generally not a good thing for them, socially, politically, culturally, linguistically, or economically.
Have a look at the graphic photos of Russian special forces, together with the "freedom fighters" posted online yesterday. Warning - very graphic. Can you not understand why emotions are running high?
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/301622/spetsnaz_rf_fotografiruetsya_na_fone_iskalechennyh_tel_ukrainskih_voinov_i_topchetsya_po_ukrainskomu
Have you ever seen blood on a pavement that looks like that? l
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RT video of "rebels" shelling a Ukrainian village.
Where does it say they are firing on a village? It doesn't. You made that up.
Your little bits of misrepresentation don't go unnoticed.
Note the fire they set, next to a typical Ukrainian house. More likely a village house, rather than a city. The type of road they are on tells me it is a large village. But you are correct, for all I know, it could be Mariupol.
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I don't know about that. Your country managed to invade two nations in a "war on terror" changing the landscape of the region (not for the better), with plenty of support. Yet, the Darwin factor has not had any noticeable effect.
Being invaded, whether directly or by a foreign proxy, tends to generate emotional responses. Particularly on lands where history tells Ukrainians that Russians invading their lands is generally not a good thing for them, socially, politically, culturally, linguistically, or economically.
Have a look at the graphic photos of Russian special forces, together with the "freedom fighters" posted online yesterday. Warning - very graphic. Can you not understand why emotions are running high?
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/301622/spetsnaz_rf_fotografiruetsya_na_fone_iskalechennyh_tel_ukrainskih_voinov_i_topchetsya_po_ukrainskomu
Have you ever seen blood on a pavement that looks like that? l
I, unfortunately, have. In Moscow.
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I don't know about that. Your country managed to invade two nations in a "war on terror" changing the landscape of the region (not for the better), with plenty of support. Yet, the Darwin factor has not had any noticeable effect.
Being invaded, whether directly or by a foreign proxy, tends to generate emotional responses. Particularly on lands where history tells Ukrainians that Russians invading their lands is generally not a good thing for them, socially, politically, culturally, linguistically, or economically.
Have a look at the graphic photos of Russian special forces, together with the "freedom fighters" posted online yesterday. Warning - very graphic. Can you not understand why emotions are running high?
http://censor.net.ua/photo_news/301622/spetsnaz_rf_fotografiruetsya_na_fone_iskalechennyh_tel_ukrainskih_voinov_i_topchetsya_po_ukrainskomu
Have you ever seen blood on a pavement that looks like that? l
I, unfortunately, have. In Moscow.
No coagulation no turning dark?
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Blood doesn't coagulate in corpses, other than in the veins.
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There's no 'special forces' in those pics. If you refer to the bloke almost wearing battledress, take a look at his feet.
Compare them with the dead guy - a 'proper' soldier.
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More than one soldier, Andrew. One, I know, is not special forces by how he is dressed.
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Those Russian soldiers have some very serious geography to overcome, if they want to get their land bridge to Crimea through Mariupol:
http://www.loveme.com/mp/info340.htm (http://loveme.com/go/49654/340?referer=http%253A%252F%252Fruadventures.com%252Fforum%252Findex.php%253Ftopic%253D20984.msg378524)
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
Probably a wise strategic move if Wikipedia is correct.
"In Mariupol there are 56 industrial enterprises under various patterns of ownership. The industry of the city is diverse, among which the city's heavy industry is dominant. Mariupol is home to the major steel mills (including some globally important) and chemical plants; there is also an important seaport and a railroad junction."
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
Probably a wise strategic move if Wikipedia is correct.
"In Mariupol there are 56 industrial enterprises under various patterns of ownership. The industry of the city is diverse, among which the city's heavy industry is dominant. Mariupol is home to the major steel mills (including some globally important) and chemical plants; there is also an important seaport and a railroad junction."
Mariupol's seaport is severely hindered as long as Russia holds Crimea. Which means that the steel mills will have only the railroad to get their goods out of there.
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
It's the largest city on the main road from Rostov to Crimea. The land bridge theory goes that the "easiest" way of connecting Russia to Crimea would be via a corridor carved out along the coast, so Mariupol becomes strategically important as a major settlement within that corridor.
However I think the reality is that the separatists chose Mariupol in order to distract the Ukrainian army from Donetsk and Lugansk. Mariupol was considered important enough for Ukraine to be certain not to allow it to fall into enemy hands and so they would need to divert resources there and therefore away from the separatists' main focus of the area around Donetsk and Lugansk.
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
The land-bridge theme was created by the West in an attempt to simplify a complex situation that no one, except Westy, fully understands. More than likely, Mariupol is just one of many items on a to-do list.
Here are the most important items: security, water, gas and electricity. Some items need to be done before it's practical to do others.
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During the Great Patriotic War, without the aid of computers, Russia packed up entire factories, shipped them on rail cars 1000 miles to the east, then put them together again and got them working. It might well be that the same thing will happen here - anything considered strategically important will be packed up and squirreled away far in the Russian interior - this time, due to better telecommunications and computers, it may well take even less time. After that, a withdrawal from a contested area could be offered.
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
The land-bridge theme was created by the West in an attempt to simplify a complex situation that no one, except Westy, fully understands. More than likely, Mariupol is just one of many items on a to-do list.
Here are the most important items: security, water, gas and electricity. Some items need to be done before it's practical to do others.
id suspect the land bridge concept was created by putin long before the west , from rosotov across to moldova most probably
i would agree however it is on a list of things to do , such as you list tom , all of which along with others will save and capture for russia untold billions in roubles
SX
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During the Great Patriotic War, without the aid of computers, Russia packed up entire factories, shipped them on rail cars 1000 miles to the east, then put them together again and got them working. It might well be that the same thing will happen here - anything considered strategically important will be packed up and squirreled away far in the Russian interior - this time, due to better telecommunications and computers, it may well take even less time. After that, a withdrawal from a contested area could be offered.
Correction, the USSR did. It is a misrepresentation of history to make Russia synonymous with the Soviet Union when talking about WWII.
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all of which along with others will save and capture for russia untold billions in roubles
SX
to which putin and his mafia boys will steal for themselves leaving nothing for the citizens
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all of which along with others will save and capture for russia untold billions in roubles
SX
to which putin and his mafia boys will steal for themselves leaving nothing for the citizens
given their level of corruption don thats also a very probable outcome
SX
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BC, the Russian ambassador's comments were part of a live CNN interview. He was live; it wasn't an edited report.
Mariupol's shelling by Russian forces stopped after presidents Poroshenko and Putin hashed it out on the telephone. Yesterday, Poroshenko traveled to Mariupol, safely, where he gave a speech reassuring residents that the city would remain Ukrainian.
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I still don't get why mariupol is creating any land-bridge to crimea. Perhaps people misstake it for melitopol, which makes more sense to me landbridge-wise.
The land-bridge theme was created by the West in an attempt to simplify a complex situation that no one, except Westy, fully understands. More than likely, Mariupol is just one of many items on a to-do list.
Here are the most important items: security, water, gas and electricity. Some items need to be done before it's practical to do others.
:ROFL: :ROFL:
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i would agree however it is on a list of things to do , such as you list tom , all of which along with others will save and capture for russia untold billions in roubles.
One might say that Mariupol was simply in the right place at the right time.
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... Yesterday, Poroshenko traveled to Mariupol, safely, where he gave a speech reassuring residents that the city would remain Ukrainian.
That is somewhat more believable than his previous statement that he would never give up Krym... but still unlikely because he isn't taking the necessary steps to normalize relations. If the Russian areas don't have security, water, gas and electricity, an continued conflict is inevitable.
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i would agree however it is on a list of things to do , such as you list tom , all of which along with others will save and capture for russia untold billions in roubles.
One might say that Mariupol was simply in the right place at the right time.
It kinda was. The rebels run what they call Reconnaissance Sabotage Groups. These small groups sound very much like the kind of missions that Britain used to run in WW2 in North Africa. They travel behind enemy lines doing long range reconnaissance and taking advantage of targets of opportunity. What they found was that the rear of the Ukrainian forces was completely unguarded.
As a result, after the reorganization of the rebel forces into integrated brigades under a unified command structure rather than semi autonomous units a decision was made to exploit this weakness by driving down the border area toward Novoasovsk and drive along the coast. As the Ukrainian forces were tied down and getting pulverised up north the rebel forces released from the defence of Donetsk and from closing down the 'cauldrons' joined the exploratory forces on the coastline. Novoasovsk soon fell and the rebels moved along the coastline, initially choosing to move past Mariupol, ignoring it rather than getting caught up in urban warfare.
In essence what occurred on the coast was due to the lack of junta forces' preparedness at the rear. Mariupol is a significant city though given that it housed US 'advisors' some of whom are no longer living and the training centre for the Azov battalion(s) of Kolmoiski.
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As a result, after the reorganization of the rebel forces into integrated brigades under a unified command structure rather than semi autonomous units a decision was made to exploit this weakness by driving down the border area toward Novoasovsk.
Which side of the border did they drive down?
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Which side of the border did they drive down?
People in combat don't give a fat hello about which side of the border that they are on; they take the path that will enhance their survival... just as the hundreds of trapped Ukes who crossed into Russia did a few weeks back.
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A very prescient article from 2008: http://shiropaev.livejournal.com/19869.html
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Interesting piece, Mr. Mann. Kremlin strategist Alexandr Dugin, writing on his facebook page, still predicts that at some point Putin will take Kiev.
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i would agree however it is on a list of things to do , such as you list tom , all of which along with others will save and capture for russia untold billions in roubles.
One might say that Mariupol was simply in the right place at the right time.
It kinda was. The rebels run what they call Reconnaissance Sabotage Groups. These small groups sound very much like the kind of missions that Britain used to run in WW2 in North Africa. They travel behind enemy lines doing long range reconnaissance and taking advantage of targets of opportunity. What they found was that the rear of the Ukrainian forces was completely unguarded.
As a result, after the reorganization of the rebel forces into integrated brigades under a unified command structure rather than semi autonomous units a decision was made to exploit this weakness by driving down the border area toward Novoasovsk and drive along the coast. As the Ukrainian forces were tied down and getting pulverised up north the rebel forces released from the defence of Donetsk and from closing down the 'cauldrons' joined the exploratory forces on the coastline. Novoasovsk soon fell and the rebels moved along the coastline, initially choosing to move past Mariupol, ignoring it rather than getting caught up in urban warfare.
In essence what occurred on the coast was due to the lack of junta forces' preparedness at the rear. Mariupol is a significant city though given that it housed US 'advisors' some of whom are no longer living and the training centre for the Azov battalion(s) of Kolmoiski.
andrew again you show you know jack , just windbagging waffle
SX
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andrew again you show you know jack , just windbagging waffle
SX
Your clarification and intelligent counter analysis speaks volumes.
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Interesting piece, Mr. Mann. Kremlin strategist Alexandr Dugin, writing on his facebook page, still predicts that at some point Putin will take Kiev.
But Mendy, for them to do that they'd have to invade Ukraine and everyone knows that they haven't done that nor would they, right?
(:)
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:)
Track record:
Putin 2008: Georgia started the war, Georgia fired the first shots. We only rushed in to defend ethnic Russians (albeit we were already there in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and had massed troops on the Georgian border for weeks).
Putin 2010: Running for re-election--a group of his generals campaigned for their strong leader, laying out the case for Putin's plan to partition Georgia even before Medvedev was president. Then in June of 2013, during an interview with RT, Putin took credit for what he called a "preventative strike to liquidate international terrorists" and "we had to attack Georgian territories...and I informed the president (Dmitry Medvedev) about this.”
Putin early 2014: We have no troops in Crimea. Those are local civil defense volunteers who probably bought their own personal tanks, armoured carriers, rocket launchers, helicopters, etc, down at the local army surplus store. Those air transports and helicopters flying across the border to drop off paratroopers? Ah, what paratroopers?
Putin Spring 2014: In his annual address/call-in talk show to the nation, he took credit for Russian troops in Crimea. He reassured listeners/viewers that Russian troops had been dispatched to Crimea to protect citizens from crazed loons in Kiev, and to ensure the peaceful undertaking of a referendum. When asked why Russian troops had removed markings from their uniforms, he said they were nice and polite guys who "stood behind the back of Crimea's self-defense forces."
Putin Eastern Ukraine 2014: We have no troops in Ukraine. Those dudes who are there can't read a GPS unit, anyway. Those who can read GPS units are there on holiday, having taken their tanks, GRADS, air defense systems, and rocket launchers with them. They like to practice on weekends.
Putin's inner circle Ukraine 2014: If you act before they are removed one can find frequent videos on places like YouTube, many by cheering ethnic Russians, posting videos of Russian troops. But hell, who needs to do that when there are plenty of photos and videos on VK and Facebook by not only rebel leaders, but Kremlin advisors.
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When the tide was turning, we were still reading reports from the western media that the separatists were encircled and fighting for their lives. Finally, the truth comes out, but only after it it is no longer possible to deny the reality:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/ukraine-town-bears-scars-of-russian-offensive-that-turned-tide-in-conflict.html
[Edit to add:]
"ILOVAISK, Ukraine — Burned-out tanks, troop carriers and trucks still lie strewn on the roads and fields all around this town. The body of a Ukrainian soldier hangs doubled over an electric wire, flung up like a doll when his tank exploded. The charred corpse of another soldier lies inside the hull of the tank, a third putrifying torso is tangled in machinery on the road.
It is vivid, if horrifying, evidence of what was a devastating offensive mounted by Russian artillery units at the end of August that smashed the government forces, breaking what had been a relentless advance that had seemed on the verge of crushing the pro-Russian uprising in the country’s southeast. Days later, Ukraine agreed to a cease-fire cementing the rebels’ hold on the region.
Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE
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Military Memo: Amid Intensifying Requests, American Military Aid to Ukraine StallsSEPT. 9, 2014
It costs about a dollar to enter the estate of former President Viktor F. Yanukovych, with guided tours of its villa available for $15.Ukraine Palace Is Still Emblem of DysfunctionSEPT. 8, 2014
FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE A brother and sister died in shelling near Mariupol; Europe endorsed sanctions against Russia.Brushing Off Threats, E.U. Votes to Toughen Its Sanctions on RussiaSEPT. 8, 2014
A basement bunker at a technical college in Yasinovataya, Ukraine, doubled as a bedroom.Ukraine and Russia Face Gaps in a Truce and a Chasm on the IssuesSEPT. 7, 2014
In a matter of five days, beginning on Aug. 28, the previously ill-equipped and inept rebels, backed or led by regular Russian troops and artillery, obliterated almost every Ukrainian position in a 20-square-mile area around this town.
Continue reading the main story
200 MILES
RUSSIA
Kiev
Dnieper
River
Ilovaisk
UKRAINE
Donetsk
Sea of
Azov
Black Sea
Under withering and highly accurate artillery fire, entire Ukrainian units were virtually wiped out, hundreds of men were killed or wounded, and 250 were taken prisoner, according to rebel commanders. Scores of wounded have filled Ukrainian hospitals, and nearly 100 vehicles were destroyed, some in the fields and villages, others on the roads.
Signs of a panicked, haphazard retreat line the roads around the town. The twisted remnants of burned-out troop carriers and other armored vehicles appear every few miles.
South of Ilovaisk, a large military camp at a dairy farm shows evidence of similarly devastating artillery strikes. Assorted vehicles, trucks and armored personnel carriers, including a command vehicle with communications antenna, were destroyed. Craters from artillery fire pockmarked the fields.
It was a stunning turnaround, engineered in Moscow and carried out by regular Russian troops in what amounted to an invasion, NATO and the Ukrainian government have said.
After the attack, the rebel forces, who just days before had been facing defeat and complaining about a lack of support from Moscow, could be seen driving around the countryside in triumph. Rebel fighters, dressed in camouflage fatigues and carrying automatic rifles, operated checkpoints on the roads and once again control this town and its surroundings.
Ukrainian forces had made steady progress through the summer, pushing the rebels out of several areas and threatening their center of power, the regional capital of Donetsk. They attacked Ilovaisk on Aug. 7 and within a week or so had seized the western part of the town and set up a base in a school building, School No. 14, and in the residential streets around it.
As the soldiers occupied the neighborhood, Victoria and Alexei Babyi fled with their two small children, taping the word DETI, which means children, on the windshield of the car and tying a white sheet to the side mirror.
“We spent a week in the basement, and then we left,” said Mrs. Babyi, 28, who with her husband had returned to their trashed house to pick up clothes and other possessions. “There were many Ukrainian checkpoints and military equipment. Planes were flying, and they were bombing the Donetsk checkpoints, and Grad rockets were falling.”
Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
As the end of August approached, the rebels still held half of the town, but they were almost surrounded and had a single supply route open to the northeast. But under a barrage of artillery, rebel and Ukrainian commanders say, the balance rapidly shifted. The rebel commander in the town, who goes by the nickname Givi — his real name is Mikhail Tolstykh — described three weeks of heavy fighting leading up to the counterattack.
It was a “massive offensive,” Commander Tolstykh said. Heavy artillery positioned about 12 miles away opened up on the Ukrainian forces in support, he said."
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The NYT wants me to subscribe to read the link you posted. I'm not going to buy a subscription, maybe you can give the members here a PPP on it?
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When the tide was turning, we were still reading reports from the western media that the separatists were encircled and fighting for their lives. Finally, the truth comes out, but only after it it is no longer possible to deny the reality:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/ukraine-town-bears-scars-of-russian-offensive-that-turned-tide-in-conflict.html
[Edit to add:]
"ILOVAISK, Ukraine — Burned-out tanks, troop carriers and trucks still lie strewn on the roads and fields all around this town. The body of a Ukrainian soldier hangs doubled over an electric wire, flung up like a doll when his tank exploded. The charred corpse of another soldier lies inside the hull of the tank, a third putrifying torso is tangled in machinery on the road.
It is vivid, if horrifying, evidence of what was a devastating offensive mounted by Russian artillery units at the end of August that smashed the government forces, breaking what had been a relentless advance that had seemed on the verge of crushing the pro-Russian uprising in the country’s southeast. Days later, Ukraine agreed to a cease-fire cementing the rebels’ hold on the region.
Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE
A pro-Russia rebel moved pieces of the Malaysia Airlines plane in eastern Ukraine on Tuesday. Much of the wreckage was left accessible to journalists, mourners and the curious, raising concerns that important evidence might have been tampered with.Malaysian Jet Over Ukraine Was Downed by ‘High-Energy Objects,’ Dutch Investigators SaySEPT. 9, 2014
Military Memo: Amid Intensifying Requests, American Military Aid to Ukraine StallsSEPT. 9, 2014
It costs about a dollar to enter the estate of former President Viktor F. Yanukovych, with guided tours of its villa available for $15.Ukraine Palace Is Still Emblem of DysfunctionSEPT. 8, 2014
FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE A brother and sister died in shelling near Mariupol; Europe endorsed sanctions against Russia.Brushing Off Threats, E.U. Votes to Toughen Its Sanctions on RussiaSEPT. 8, 2014
A basement bunker at a technical college in Yasinovataya, Ukraine, doubled as a bedroom.Ukraine and Russia Face Gaps in a Truce and a Chasm on the IssuesSEPT. 7, 2014
In a matter of five days, beginning on Aug. 28, the previously ill-equipped and inept rebels, backed or led by regular Russian troops and artillery, obliterated almost every Ukrainian position in a 20-square-mile area around this town.
Continue reading the main story
200 MILES
RUSSIA
Kiev
Dnieper
River
Ilovaisk
UKRAINE
Donetsk
Sea of
Azov
Black Sea
Under withering and highly accurate artillery fire, entire Ukrainian units were virtually wiped out, hundreds of men were killed or wounded, and 250 were taken prisoner, according to rebel commanders. Scores of wounded have filled Ukrainian hospitals, and nearly 100 vehicles were destroyed, some in the fields and villages, others on the roads.
Signs of a panicked, haphazard retreat line the roads around the town. The twisted remnants of burned-out troop carriers and other armored vehicles appear every few miles.
South of Ilovaisk, a large military camp at a dairy farm shows evidence of similarly devastating artillery strikes. Assorted vehicles, trucks and armored personnel carriers, including a command vehicle with communications antenna, were destroyed. Craters from artillery fire pockmarked the fields.
It was a stunning turnaround, engineered in Moscow and carried out by regular Russian troops in what amounted to an invasion, NATO and the Ukrainian government have said.
After the attack, the rebel forces, who just days before had been facing defeat and complaining about a lack of support from Moscow, could be seen driving around the countryside in triumph. Rebel fighters, dressed in camouflage fatigues and carrying automatic rifles, operated checkpoints on the roads and once again control this town and its surroundings.
Ukrainian forces had made steady progress through the summer, pushing the rebels out of several areas and threatening their center of power, the regional capital of Donetsk. They attacked Ilovaisk on Aug. 7 and within a week or so had seized the western part of the town and set up a base in a school building, School No. 14, and in the residential streets around it.
As the soldiers occupied the neighborhood, Victoria and Alexei Babyi fled with their two small children, taping the word DETI, which means children, on the windshield of the car and tying a white sheet to the side mirror.
“We spent a week in the basement, and then we left,” said Mrs. Babyi, 28, who with her husband had returned to their trashed house to pick up clothes and other possessions. “There were many Ukrainian checkpoints and military equipment. Planes were flying, and they were bombing the Donetsk checkpoints, and Grad rockets were falling.”
Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
As the end of August approached, the rebels still held half of the town, but they were almost surrounded and had a single supply route open to the northeast. But under a barrage of artillery, rebel and Ukrainian commanders say, the balance rapidly shifted. The rebel commander in the town, who goes by the nickname Givi — his real name is Mikhail Tolstykh — described three weeks of heavy fighting leading up to the counterattack.
It was a “massive offensive,” Commander Tolstykh said. Heavy artillery positioned about 12 miles away opened up on the Ukrainian forces in support, he said."
Indeed, yet there are still those in denial of Russian troops in Ukraine! (:)
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When the tide was turning, we were still reading reports from the western media that the separatists were encircled and fighting for their lives. Finally, the truth comes out, but only after it it is no longer possible to deny the reality
I don't know what sources you read, but every source I read at the time described Ilovaisk as the slaughter of Ukrainian soldiers, thanks to fortification by Russian soldiers and weaponry.
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I don't know what sources you read, but...
I agree; you don't know what sources that I read.
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Maybe it's time to broaden your reading list then Tom.
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I don't know what sources you read, but...
I agree; you don't know what sources that I read.
I will have to agree with Mr. Mann. This is old news to anyone reading multiple sources, and nothing I read ever described Ilovaisk as a win for Ukrainian troops.
I believe baglia posted in real time about over 100 troops being shot as they were offered a safe passage out of the Iloviask encirclement.
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What an excellent suggestion, MrMann! I should read more articles by the Kievpost.
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... and nothing I read ever described Ilovaisk as a win for Ukrainian troops.
I didn't write that I had read that Ilovaisk was a win for Ukrainian troops.
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No, but you claimed we were reading the "separatists" were encircled. I never read that about Iloviask. On the contrary, I always read that the Ukrainian army was encircled there.
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Why not provide some examples of the articles that you disagree with so that we can all read them?
Using the term "western media" is as accurate as the term "Russian media" that is also bandied about.
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Why not provide some examples of the articles that you disagree with so that we can all read them?
It's impractical; I read dozens of articles every day that come up when I do a search for "Ukraine news." Sometimes, I post a quote from one of the pieces when I come across something that is remarkable but I don't want to litter the place with crap articles. (Jay is already doing a fine job of that.) Instead, I post my impression. My impression is not invalidated because it doesn't coincide with your impression or with Halo's impression.
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So is your argument that crap articles are misrepresenting the truth? If you'd said that in the first place rather than suggesting that the "western media" were misreporting what was happening then you may have had some agreement.
None of the sources that I read at the time, "western" or "Russian", reported it as anything but a bloody rout of the Ukrainian troops.
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So is your argument that crap articles are misrepresenting the truth?
I've long since abandoned hope of getting the real story from any given source because they always have an angle. To deal with this, I construct a mosaic of many articles, stand back and "squint." It's not 100% accurate, of course, but the averaging effect helps.
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It is vivid, if horrifying, evidence of what was a devastating offensive mounted by Russian artillery units at the end of August that smashed the government forces, breaking what had been a relentless advance that had seemed on the verge of crushing the pro-Russian uprising in the country’s southeast. Days later, Ukraine agreed to a cease-fire cementing the rebels’ hold on the region.
Very accurate:
- Horrifying. This was where Nikolai Berezovoi, husband of Ukrainian investigative journalist Tetyana Chornovol was killed. (May God grant him eternal memory.)
http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/husband-of-journalist-tetyana-chornovol-killed-fighting-donetsk-rebels/
and
http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/thoughts-on-freedom-life-and-death-by-tetyana-chornovol/
- Russian artillery units. Check.
- Russian units rescued the floundering rebels. Check.
- Russian units turned the tide of the war. Check.
- Presence of Russian units confirmed by a rebel commander. Check. (Unlike Moscow, the rebels have been honest at least.)
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Putin early 2014: We have no troops in Crimea. Those are local civil defense volunteers who probably bought their own personal tanks, armoured carriers, rocket launchers, helicopters, etc, down at the local army surplus store. Those air transports and helicopters flying across the border to drop off paratroopers? Ah, what paratroopers?
You forgot about the war ships in the Black Sea ports Mendy, you know the type that can be quite easily purchased by anyone these days in Ukraine at the local hardware store :chuckle: I'll have for(k)(c)andles* and throw in a couple of frigates for the weekend will you :'(
Putin Eastern Ukraine 2014: We have no troops in Ukraine. Those dudes who are there can't read a GPS unit, anyway. Those who can read GPS units are there on holiday, having taken their tanks, GRADS, air defense systems, and rocket launchers with them. They like to practice on weekends.
Yes that's the first thing I pack when going on my hols! :chuckle:
*see the Two Ronnies sketch.
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NATO Chief Warns Moscow: No More Stealth Invasions
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/15/nato-chief-warns-moscow-no-more-stealth-invasions.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29
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NATO Chief Warns Moscow: No More Stealth Invasions
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/15/nato-chief-warns-moscow-no-more-stealth-invasions.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29
Fantastic. Already signs of the Crimea & Donbas script being in place in Moldova.
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Ukraine crisis: Law grants rebels self-rule and amnesty
Rebel-controlled regions of eastern Ukraine have been granted self-rule and fighters have been given an amnesty, under a new law adopted by parliament.
The measures are in line with the 5 September ceasefire agreement signed by President Petro Poroshenko.
The European and Ukrainian parliaments have also voted to ratify a major EU-Ukraine association agreement.
Ukraine and the West accuse Russia of backing the rebels with soldiers and heavy weapons. Russia denies doing so.
At least 3,000 people have been killed in the conflict and more than 310,000 internally displaced in Ukraine, the UN says.
The amnesty affects rebels in Donetsk and Lugansk regions, but does not cover the shooting down of the MH17 plane.
Western leaders believe rebels shot down the Malaysia Airlines jet with a Russian missile in July.
Rebels accused of other "grave" crimes will not be covered by the new amnesty either.
Historic day
The rebels have controlled most of Donetsk and Lugansk regions since April. The uprising began soon after Russia annexed Ukraine's Crimea peninsula.
The EU-Ukraine agreement ratified on Tuesday lies at the root of Ukraine's crisis.
It was Viktor Yanukovych's refusal to sign it in November last year that triggered mass protests and his fall from power.
The votes took place simultaneously, with a live video link-up between the two parliaments.
Both President Poroshenko and the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, called it a historic day.
But negotiations with Russia last week led to the free-trade part of the agreement being postponed until 2016.
There are fears in Ukraine that Russia will still try to scupper the deal.
Call to free prisoners
The amnesty means pro-Russian separatists taken prisoner in the fighting should now be released.
There have been some prisoner releases already during the ceasefire.
Rebels holding government buildings in the east are now supposed to leave them, hand over captured Ukrainian soldiers and other prisoners and surrender their weapons.
However, many of the rebels are demanding full independence, and speak of creating a new state called "Novorossiya", something Russian President Vladimir Putin has also mentioned in speeches.
Meanwhile, there has been heavy shelling around the government-held airport of Donetsk, despite the fragile ceasefire.
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29220885
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The BBC? :ROFL: British state TV funded by a kraysha-style TV tax under threat of prison for those who don't pay? The PC BBC? The BBC that publishes no accounts? The same BBC whose reporters were caught red handed lying on the Ukraine issue?
Lets take a look at a few other outlets to get the full tale, yes?
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The BBC? :ROFL: British state TV funded by a kraysha-style TV tax under threat of prison for those who don't pay? The PC BBC? The BBC that publishes no accounts? The same BBC whose reporters were caught red handed lying on the Ukraine issue?
Lets take a look at a few other outlets to get the full tale, yes?
I don't know if Farage is a clown or not, but entertaining to see how he smashed around earning brownie points.
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The BBC? :ROFL: British state TV funded by a kraysha-style TV tax under threat of prison for those who don't pay? The PC BBC? The BBC that publishes no accounts? The same BBC whose reporters were caught red handed lying on the Ukraine issue?
Lets take a look at a few other outlets to get the full tale, yes?
I don't know if Farage is a clown or not, but entertaining to see how he smashed around earning brownie points.
Farage is good. Why he walked the EU vote here recently and is top of the fastest rising party in the UK. He speaks common sense. He is particularly good in the European parliament. Topic from a few months ago on him is here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20728.msg359308#msg359308).
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A BBC team has been attacked (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29249642) and their hard drives and memory cards wiped while investigating the deaths of Russian serviceman.
We had gone to investigate reports of Russian servicemen being killed near the border with Ukraine.
As we left a cafe and approached our car, we were confronted and attacked by at least three aggressive individuals.
Using physical violence the men grabbed our camera, smashed it on the road, and then escaped with it in a getaway car. During the scuffle the BBC cameraman was knocked to the ground and beaten.
The team is now safe and back in Moscow.
Following the attack, we spent more than four hours being questioned in a local police station.
We discovered later that while we were there, back in the car some of our recording equipment had been tampered with.
The hard drive of the main computer as well as several memory cards with video material had been wiped clean.
There's an extended article on their investigations here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29249643).
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Putin is warning Ukraine not to introduce legislation implementing the EU Ukraine association agreement.
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-warns-ukraine-against-implementing-eu-deal-letter-155456222--finance.html
Putin warns Ukraine against implementing EU deal -letter
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Moscow will curtail Ukraine's access to vital Russian markets if Kiev implements any part of a trade agreement with the European Union, President Vladimir Putin warned in a letter, toughening his stance on a deal at the center of East-West tensions.
In a letter to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, seen by Reuters on Tuesday, Putin warned that even changing national legislation to prepare for the EU-Ukraine trade deal, known as the association agreement, would trigger an immediate response from Moscow.
"We still believe that only systemic adjustments of the Association Agreement, which take into account the full range of risks to Russian-Ukranian economic ties and to the whole Russian economy, will allow to retain existing trade and economic cooperation between the Russian Federation and Ukraine," Putin wrote in the letter, which is dated Sept. 17.
Putin did not go into detail about possible retaliation, but Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said last week he had signed an order to curb Ukrainian exporters' access to Russia. Those measures are yet to take effect.
Substantially raising Russian tariffs could mean 3 billion euros a year in lost business for Ukraine, which exports mainly steel, coal, chemicals and grains to Russia, EU diplomats say.
The EU-Ukraine deal is at the heart of a dispute that has grown from a tug-of-war between Brussels and the Kremlin over Kiev to economic sanctions, the annexation of Crimea by Russia, armed conflict in eastern Ukraine, and concern about a new Cold War.
Following the overthrow in February of a pro-Moscow leader who rejected the EU deal, Ukraine's parliament sealed a historic shift by ratifying the political and trade agreement. That put Kiev on a path it hopes will bring the prosperity it sees in fellow ex-communist states like Poland.
DELAYED OR FROZEN?
In a last-minute concession to Moscow, the EU delayed implementing the trade accord until Dec. 31 2015. Brussels hopes that will give it time to assuage Russian concerns about the pact, which is now a legal treaty that cannot easily be changed.
But Putin's letter suggests that the Kremlin considers the 15-month delay to the EU-Ukraine agreement a complete freezing of the process until Russian demands for changes to the legal texts are met.
"Adoption of such amendments to Ukrainian legislation, including implementing acts, will be considered as infringement of the arrangement to postpone implementation of the Association Agreement, entailing immediate and adequate retaliatory measures from the Russian side," Putin wrote.
Putin wants three-way negotiations to amend the EU's accord with Kiev, which Russia says will hurt its own economy.
According to EU officials, Russia wants to remove more than 2,000 products eligible for duty-free access to the European Union, tearing up about a quarter of the agreement.
Russian companies are also concerned they will not be able to import into Ukraine after Ukraine adopts higher EU standards as part of its implementation of the pact.
Ukrainian companies will receive European technical help and funds to help adapt to EU regulations. But without some kind of agreement with the EU, Russia would have to put up its own funds to help its companies such as carmakers modernize and comply with EU standards.
EU officials say there is room for compromise.
Russian exporters could have a soft route to compliance with EU quality and other standards in Ukraine so that they only need meet the requirements for selling goods into the EU-Ukraine free-trade area over a very long time.
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In a last-minute concession to Moscow, the EU delayed implementing the trade accord until Dec. 31 2015.
Mentioned here:
Let Putin enjoy his Ukraine victory
Last week the ‘West’ was roundly beaten by Vladimir Putin in the First Ukrainian War. The EU not only delayed a crucial part of its imperial deal with Kiev. It openly admitted that this was a concession to Moscow.
The resulting compromise could have been had last winter, before the EU and Washington mounted their violent mob putsch against the elected President of Ukraine, ludicrously claiming they did this in the name of democracy and good government. All the thousands of lives lost since that putsch were needlessly sacrificed. There is no magic formula which says that Ukraine, under Western domination, will cease to be grossly corrupt, lawless, bankrupt and unfree.
Russia has shown quite clearly that it means what it has patiently said for years, and will fight against any further Western expansion of the EU.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2763824/PETER-HITCHENS-All-devolved-power-end-just-one-place-Brussels.html
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If the Ukes were smart, they would get the hell out of the Debaltseve pocket and the area east of Avdiivka.
[attachimg=1]
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Will be interesting to see when Putin resumes his push for a land bridge to Crimea - perhaps dead of winter or perhaps after the Spring thaw?
I would chose the dead of winter when no one expects it and when you can cut natgaz and oil supplies to the rest of Ukraine for full effect. A few weeks without heat, warm meals or running water and no one in the UA will be in a fighting mood.
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... or perhaps after the Spring thaw?
Too muddy
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If the Ukes were smart, they would get the hell out of the Debaltseve pocket and the area east of Avdiivka.
I would hold them with light, well trained, disciplined forces who can exfiltrate quickly. Those salients are good jumping off points for potential future UA offensive operations. Also, the Russian proxy forces are probably not capable of taking these salients without regular Russian Federation forces and the Ukrainians would have a heads up on any buildup in regards to RF armed forces.
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A few weeks without heat, warm meals or running water and no one in the UA will be in a fighting mood.
Actually the opposite often occurs. An angry citizenry wanting to go on the offensive. Seen it happen in ex-Yugoslavia in areas where the Serbs cut off access to utilities. Angered locals and created the impetus for offensive operations. Ultimately proved to be a counter productive tactic for the Serbian forces in the 1990s wars of ex-Yu succession.
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An interesting article from Forbes on how Putin is using Ukraine as a test to judge NATO's determination. Basically what the article is saying is that Putin is covertly waging war in Ukraine via proxies and very discreet military operations. If Putin can get away with his actions in Ukraine without NATO involvement he may try the same tactics in one of the Baltic states such as Latvia. In turn if he succeeds in Latvia that will destroy NATO and Putin wins.
Not really a secret strategy, as one of those saying Putin has invaded Ukraine I have mentioned similar objectives in past posts. If those of us on RUA can detect such a long term strategy on Putin's part it can't be much of a secret. Surely NATO must have tumbled to this as one of Putin's possible long term tactics? I'm not saying Putin wouldn't try this, I'm saying he might very well try something like this but NATO must have certainly considered such an action by Putin.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/09/23/ukraine-is-more-of-an-existential-threat-than-isis-because-it-could-destroy-nato/
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If the Ukes were smart, they would get the hell out of the Debaltseve pocket and the area east of Avdiivka.
I would hold them with light, well trained, disciplined forces who can exfiltrate quickly. Those salients are good jumping off points for potential future UA offensive operations. Also, the Russian proxy forces are probably not capable of taking these salients without regular Russian Federation forces and the Ukrainians would have a heads up on any buildup in regards to RF armed forces.
Heads up notwithstanding, when the separatists close the box, the Ukrainians caught in the box will be screwed. The only thing that will save them is if the separatists and Putin play a waiting game with winter coming.
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If the Ukes were smart, they would get the hell out of the Debaltseve pocket and the area east of Avdiivka.
I would hold them with light, well trained, disciplined forces who can exfiltrate quickly. Those salients are good jumping off points for potential future UA offensive operations. Also, the Russian proxy forces are probably not capable of taking these salients without regular Russian Federation forces and the Ukrainians would have a heads up on any buildup in regards to RF armed forces.
Heads up notwithstanding, when the separatists close the box, the Ukrainians caught in the box will be screwed. The only thing that will save them is if the separatists and Putin play a waiting game with winter coming.
The separatists don't have the capability or manpower to 'close the box' and regular Russian Federation military forces would have to be used in fairly significant numbers, far more so than has been used so far in Donetsk and Lugansk. I suspect that the Ukrainians are still in these two salients because they came to this assessment.
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A few weeks without heat, warm meals or running water and no one in the UA will be in a fighting mood.
Actually the opposite often occurs. An angry citizenry wanting to go on the offensive. Seen it happen in ex-Yugoslavia in areas where the Serbs cut off access to utilities. Angered locals and created the impetus for offensive operations. Ultimately proved to be a counter productive tactic for the Serbian forces in the 1990s wars of ex-Yu succession.
It's one thing to get pissed and pick up a few ball bats and perhaps some old AKs and a bunch of a molatov cocktail launchers and want to go kick some Rooskie arse - its another when there is a Polar Vortex swirling for the duration of Winter at -40F and you have NO NatGaz, No Oil, No Petrol, No warm food and no Water - Oh and no electricity and your sell phone network is down... and your UAH does not buy you a loaf of bread not to mention groceries for your family... UA will have one effed up NYE and a cold holiday season while Moscow parties with Beijing like it is 2014!
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I wonder how Arseniy Yatsenyuk's dumbass steel fence is coming along.
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Cufflinks, the permutations and combinations of energy politics involving the RU-UA-EU triangle is complicated and interwoven. Any gas not sold is revenue Moscow does not receive and further raids of their pension fund (a la the recent Rosneft 'loan') can be expected in such a scenario.
At least according to this article it appears that UA may have enough stored gas for this winter already courtesy of Germany and Poland.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/09/turkey-russia-ukraine-european-union-natural-gas-tanap.html#
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I suspect that the Ukrainians are still in these two salients because they came to this assessment.
Have they assessed anything correctly this year?
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I suspect that the Ukrainians are still in these two salients because they came to this assessment.
Have they assessed anything correctly this year?
I would actually say that the Ukies are holding up remarkably well all things considered, better than I expected. The Kremlin orchestrated revolts failed fairly miserably in Kharkov, Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk etc. The largely engineered insurrections in Donetsk and Lugansk were well on the way to being defeated on the ground until the outright intervention of the regular forces of the Russian Federation which has come at an external and internal political cost for Putin's regime (the casualties their airborne forces suffered were too large to be adequately covered up).
Given the poor state of their forces at the start of this war, a military and civil service full of Moscow plants. I think they have done reasonably well so far. Now it is a question of whether they can reorganise, regroup and better prepare themselves for the second phase of this war.
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I suspect that the Ukrainians are still in these two salients because they came to this assessment.
Have they assessed anything correctly this year?
I would actually say that the Ukies are holding up remarkably well all things considered, better than I expected. The Kremlin orchestrated revolts failed fairly miserably in Kharkov, Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk etc. The largely engineered insurrections in Donetsk and Lugansk were well on the way to being defeated on the ground until the outright intervention of the regular forces of the Russian Federation which has come at an external and internal political cost for Putin's regime (the casualties their airborne forces suffered were too large to be adequately covered up).
Given the poor state of their forces at the start of this war, a military and civil service full of Moscow plants. I think they have done reasonably well so far. Now it is a question of whether they can reorganise, regroup and better prepare themselves for the second phase of this war.
id second that above isthmus
SX
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An interesting article from Forbes on how Putin is using Ukraine as a test to judge NATO's determination. Basically what the article is saying is that Putin is covertly waging war in Ukraine via proxies and very discreet military operations. If Putin can get away with his actions in Ukraine without NATO involvement he may try the same tactics in one of the Baltic states such as Latvia. In turn if he succeeds in Latvia that will destroy NATO and Putin wins.
Not really a secret strategy, as one of those saying Putin has invaded Ukraine I have mentioned similar objectives in past posts. If those of us on RUA can detect such a long term strategy on Putin's part it can't be much of a secret. Surely NATO must have tumbled to this as one of Putin's possible long term tactics? I'm not saying Putin wouldn't try this, I'm saying he might very well try something like this but NATO must have certainly considered such an action by Putin.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/09/23/ukraine-is-more-of-an-existential-threat-than-isis-because-it-could-destroy-nato/
Of course they see it for what it is, or should I say what it also is. That is, testing the solidarity of the West/NATO. I would sincerely hope that if he did something as asinine as invade one of the Baltic states, NATO's response would be decisive and swift.
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If the Ukes were smart, they would get the hell out of the Debaltseve pocket and the area east of Avdiivka.
I would hold them with light, well trained, disciplined forces who can exfiltrate quickly. Those salients are good jumping off points for potential future UA offensive operations. Also, the Russian proxy forces are probably not capable of taking these salients without regular Russian Federation forces and the Ukrainians would have a heads up on any buildup in regards to RF armed forces.
Heads up notwithstanding, when the separatists close the box, the Ukrainians caught in the box will be screwed. The only thing that will save them is if the separatists and Putin play a waiting game with winter coming.
The separatists don't have the capability or manpower to 'close the box' and regular Russian Federation military forces would have to be used in fairly significant numbers, far more so than has been used so far in Donetsk and Lugansk. I suspect that the Ukrainians are still in these two salients because they came to this assessment.
Wait, what?! Russian military forces have been used in Ukraine? Nooooooo (:)
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Guppy, Russian military personnel would have only been in Eastern Ukraine 'volunteering' (during their annual holidays of course) to help the beleaguered, oppressed people of Novorossiya ;D
Anyways, my point is that to clear the Ukrainians out of those two salients, TomT referred to, the size of the territory would require a major use of regular RF ground units and they would be too large to even attempt some kind of plausible deniability smokescreen.
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Guppy, Russian military personnel would have only been in Eastern Ukraine 'volunteering' (during their annual holidays of course) to help the beleaguered, oppressed people of Novorossiya ;D
Anyways, my point is that to clear the Ukrainians out of those two salients, TomT referred to, the size of the territory would require a major use of regular RF ground units and they would be too large to even attempt some kind of plausible deniability smokescreen.
I honestly think that Putin's grown so arrogant, bold, and brazen that in this instance he could give a :censored: about plausible deniability, at least in the Ukrainian theatre of operation.
It's funny, but I just talked to my good friend Sarah who lives in Florida and is dating a guy from Moscow who moved across the Pond not that terribly long ago. I asked her what Sergei thought of the whole situation and she says to me, "Let's just say that he despises Putin as much as you despise Obama". Then she proceeded to tell me how her Russian boyfriend launched into a tirade about what he thought of him. More specifically that he was a psychopathic and manipulative compulsive liar who bullies people to get his own way.
According to him, most Russians acknowledge the fact that it wasn't just some of their "boys on holiday in Crimea", but they've grown so tired of politics and their inability to do anything about effecting change that most simply feel resignation.
This is of course only one middle-aged Russian man's POV, but especially given the way she described his fervent hate for Putler, it was interesting to note that he doesn't enjoy universal acceptance and love as some of his backers/apologists would have you believe.
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I would actually say that the Ukies are holding up remarkably well all things considered, better than I expected.
Yes, their string of successes, including eliminating corruption, meeting their financial obligations, bargaining effectively with Gazprom, defending Krym, crushing the separatists in Donetsk/Lugansk, talking the West into arming them, and building the fence on their border with Russia, takes my breath away. The Ukes never cease to impress.
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The scope of my discussion was the military conflict in eastern Ukraine. Crimea was a lost cause from the start as it was already occupied by Russia before the war even began. Changing a corrupt culture is a multi generational process ... but back to the military situation. I was expecting them to get steam rolled and they haven't been. They have held up well considering their military was in a shambolic state at the start of this war and their privately organised volunteer battalions have surprisingly performed well for a light infantry force. A winter hiatus of training, reorganisation and improved equipment could see them become a far more formidable force in 2015 if they are developed properly.
Tom, I'm just an impartial observer of UA-RU events. I don't have some anti-UA axe to grind like you seemingly do. Merely calling things as I see them.
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"They want us to freeze. This is the aim and this is another trump card in Russian hands. So, except military offense, except military operation against Ukraine, they have another trump card, which is energy... The ultimate goal of Russia is to organize, to orchestrate another frozen conflict in Ukraine."
Apparently, the irony of the Junta's shutting off gas, water and electricity to Krym, Donetsk and Lugansk, whilst he bleats about Russia shutting off Ukraine's gas eludes him. Instead of trying to normalize relations, he continues to whip up the masses so that there will be more cannon fodder for future military operations. Arseniy is one of the smartest men in Ukraine, mind you.
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He wasn't wrong about Russia using energy as a weapon. However, under EU pressure, Russia and Ukraine have apparently resolved the gas dispute subject to their arbitration proceedings. Ukraine will pay $3.1 billion to Russia, and Russia will supply gas to Ukraine at $100 per cubic meter or so above the (disputed) contract rate. That rate is the mid point price they are disputing, so it likely is a fair compromise.
As for whipping up the masses, you should read Ukrainian papers and speak to Ukrainians. Your comments on this point are misguided.
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Tom, I'm just an impartial observer of UA-RU events. I don't have some anti-UA axe to grind like you seemingly do.
Your impartiality is so obvious that one has to wonder why you felt the need to mention it.
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... However, under EU pressure, Russia and Ukraine have apparently resolved the gas dispute subject to their arbitration proceedings. Ukraine will pay $3.1 billion to Russia, and Russia will supply gas to Ukraine at $100 per cubic meter or so above the (disputed) contract rate. That rate is the mid point price they are disputing, so it likely is a fair compromise.
The Oettinger proposal hasn't been accepted by either side, so the issue is not resolved.
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Novak and Prodan have both stated the proposal is acceptable.
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Putin is threatening to shut off the gas supply to the Europe this winter because some countries have been re-exporting supplies to Ukraine to help Kiev through its latest energy war with Moscow.
I really don't see the problem with a European country, for example Germany, sending gas Germany paid for to Ukraine. Germany paid for the gas what is does with the gas is not any business of Russia. For example if a man bought a toaster from a store and gave the toaster to another man who couldn't afford a toaster, the store the toaster was bought from has no right to tell the man who bought the toaster he can't sell the toaster or give it away. If the owner of the store where the toaster was bought tried to have the police arrest the man who gave the toaster away the police wouldn't do anything. A legal case would yield similar results.
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-eu-mustnt-export-gas-ukraine-report-071735764.html
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"They want us to freeze. This is the aim and this is another trump card in Russian hands. So, except military offense, except military operation against Ukraine, they have another trump card, which is energy... The ultimate goal of Russia is to organize, to orchestrate another frozen conflict in Ukraine."
Apparently, the irony of the Junta's shutting off gas, water and electricity to Krym, Donetsk and Lugansk, whilst he bleats about Russia shutting off Ukraine's gas eludes him. Instead of trying to normalize relations, he continues to whip up the masses so that there will be more cannon fodder for future military operations. Arseniy is one of the smartest men in Ukraine, mind you.
"Normalize relations"?! You can't be serious, right? How do you propose he "normalize relations". Lemme guess......concede eastern Ukraine?
There isn't going to be any "normalizing" of relations with a Russian leader who's intent is to land grab as much as he can and bring back the glory days of the Soviet Union. Pulleez, Tom.
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Putin is threatening to shut off the gas supply to the Europe this winter because some countries have been re-exporting supplies to Ukraine to help Kiev through its latest energy war with Moscow.
I really don't see the problem with a European country, for example Germany, sending gas Germany paid for to Ukraine. Germany paid for the gas what is does with the gas is not any business of Russia. For example if a man bought a toaster from a store and gave the toaster to another man who couldn't afford a toaster, the store the toaster was bought from has no right to tell the man who bought the toaster he can't sell the toaster or give it away. If the owner of the store where the toaster was bought tried to have the police arrest the man who gave the toaster away the police wouldn't do anything. A legal case would yield similar results.
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-eu-mustnt-export-gas-ukraine-report-071735764.html
It is very common for governments to put restrictions on commodities/products that they have sold.
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That Yahoo article is a masterpiece of incorrect reporting.
1) Gazprom has said that they have no obligation to supply in excess of contracted amounts of gas. Some buyers have been taking more gas than was agreed and then passing that gas to Ukraine.
2) Because Ukraine has taken Gazprom to arbitration in respect of pricing it is not possible for Gazprom to enter into seperate negotiations on price because to do so would prejudice the case however the Russian government offered to Ukraine a break on duty that would give a significant break on price without affecting the awaited arbitration case initiated by Ukraine. Ukraine chose to not accept the offer that would have meant a very significant cost saving.
3) Buyers of Gazprom gas agree in their purchase agreement to not resell or redistribute the gas they purchase. This is normal enough, to have a different agreement would mean that Gazprom could not negotiate on a fair basis with other buyers of their gas.
4) Russia has not threatened to cut off gas supplies to European customers.
5) The article refers to Russia as being Ukraine's 'master' a very insulting and untrue characterisation of Ukraine's position and not relevant to the article at all.
At the moment some European countries are conspiring with Ukraine to defraud Russia and are abetting Ukraine's avoidance of paying for the gas it has purchased in the past. By doing so it seems to me that they are breaking their own agreements with Gazprom which might lead to a situation whereby the supplier chooses to consider the contract as voided. That is the concern voiced by Mr Orban of Hungary.
A truly splendid piece!
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Novak and Prodan have both stated the proposal is acceptable.
According to the interim agreement, which has to be approved by the governments in Moscow and Kiev, Gazprom is ready to deliver at least five billion cubic metres of gas in the coming months, Oettinger said after he met with both energy ministers in Berlin.
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You can't be serious, right... Pulleez, Tom.
They can always hold out for more Darwin awards.
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In truth there is no agreement, interim or otherwise.
A suggestion has been made in respect of a part payment of the outstanding debt under which Gazprom will supply gas, on pre/payment terms, before the full debt has been cleared.
Ukraine has, seemingly, gone along with that - they have already been lent the money for this express purpose but had refused to pay the money over to Gazprom.
Ukraine does not accept the price for new supply of gas and without such an agreement there will be no supply. In addition, IMHO, it is unlikely that Ukraine will repay Gazprom any debt of its debt unless an agreement on price is reached that suits Ukraine.
Thus, nothing has actually changed. Thief is still a thief. Supplier awaits payment and winter is coming.
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In truth there is no agreement, interim or otherwise.
A suggestion has been made in respect of a part payment of the outstanding debt under which Gazprom will supply gas, on pre/payment terms, before the full debt has been cleared.
Ukraine has, seemingly, gone along with that - they have already been lent the money for this express purpose but had refused to pay the money over to Gazprom.
Ukraine does not accept the price for new supply of gas and without such an agreement there will be no supply. In addition, IMHO, it is unlikely that Ukraine will repay Gazprom any debt of its debt unless an agreement on price is reached that suits Ukraine.
Thus, nothing has actually changed. Thief is still a thief. Supplier awaits payment and winter is coming.
Andrew, you are one of the few people who offers an informed opinion on this matter. +100
IMHO opinion the prevarication will continue until late November. At this time Ukraine will have to steal the gas destined for other countries or freeze. Of course they will steal, as they have for the last 20 years...
My prediction is that Putin will then shut off all supply via the Ukrainian pipelines. The EU will capitulate before Christmas ( sooner if this winter is cold). Russia will be paid what it is owed (subject to squabbling) and south stream will be fully operational by winter 2015...
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Novak and Prodan have both stated the proposal is acceptable.
According to the interim agreement, which has to be approved by the governments in Moscow and Kiev, Gazprom is ready to deliver at least five billion cubic metres of gas in the coming months, Oettinger said after he met with both energy ministers in Berlin.
Do you believe ministers are in the habit of making public pronouncements on positions that have not been approved by their governments?
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Tom, I'm just an impartial observer of UA-RU events. I don't have some anti-UA axe to grind like you seemingly do.
Your impartiality is so obvious that one has to wonder why you felt the need to mention it.
Admittedly, I usually have a bias towards the victims of bullying and neo-colonialism.
But I am not involved with a Ukrainian nor a Russian lady. Lets face it, that is a major determinant of people's stances on the UA-RU conflict. :chuckle:
Also, I certainly haven't let my previous involvement with women of a certain ethnic background colour my assessments of current international relations.
I don't know what your personal history is and frankly it doesn't really interest me but you certainly have one heavy axe to grind in regards to Ukraine and Ukrainians. It seeps out in every post you make Tom.
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Do you believe ministers are in the habit of making public pronouncements on positions that have not been approved by their governments?
It doesn't really matter whether ministers are lying on their own or delivering officially sanctioned lies; it's all the same. I doubt that Ukraine is going to pay the full amount of their debt, irrespective of the results of the arbitration. Frankly, I think that Gazprom is out of their collective mind to put any gas in a pipeline that is vulnerable to theft in transit or do business with a country that has a massive outstanding debt.
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I don't know what your personal history is and, frankly, it doesn't really interest me...
So why bring it up?
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Do you believe ministers are in the habit of making public pronouncements on positions that have not been approved by their governments?
It doesn't really matter whether ministers are lying on their own or delivering officially sanctioned lies; it's all the same. I doubt that Ukraine is going to pay the full amount of their debt, irrespective of the results of the arbitration. Frankly, I think that Gazprom is out of their collective mind to put any gas in a pipeline that is vulnerable to theft in transit or do business with a country that has a massive outstanding debt.
But this has always been the dance between Russia and Ukraine. Further, with new technology, the ability to steal gas in transit has been reduced to almost nil. The only place gas can still be siphoned is at the entry point, in Lugansk. Since the Russians control that area, any gas stolen is their problem.
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I don't know what your personal history is and, frankly, it doesn't really interest me...
So why bring it up?
Because I suspect that you had some bad personal experience in UA or with a UW and that now influences all your commentary on the UA-RU conflict.
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Do you believe ministers are in the habit of making public pronouncements on positions that have not been approved by their governments?
It doesn't really matter whether ministers are lying on their own or delivering officially sanctioned lies; it's all the same. I doubt that Ukraine is going to pay the full amount of their debt, irrespective of the results of the arbitration. Frankly, I think that Gazprom is out of their collective mind to put any gas in a pipeline that is vulnerable to theft in transit or do business with a country that has a massive outstanding debt.
But this has always been the dance between Russia and Ukraine. Further, with new technology, the ability to steal gas in transit has been reduced to almost nil. The only place gas can still be siphoned is at the entry point, in Lugansk. Since the Russians control that area, any gas stolen is their problem.
You must be misstaken, most gas through ukraine that is headed towards Europe goes through Ukraine shortly north of Kiev. Far away from those darn seperatists.
If I look at the map, they have ample oppertunity to siphon off illegaly.
http://en.ria.ru/infographics/20090609/155206402.html
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But this has always been the dance between Russia and Ukraine. Further, with new technology, the ability to steal gas in transit has been reduced to almost nil. The only place gas can still be siphoned is at the entry point, in Lugansk. Since the Russians control that area, any gas stolen is their problem.
Halo land is an amazing place, where Halo is always right. Even when she spouts obvious BS dressed up in authoritative language...
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Halo, that's balderdash. Have you lost connection with reality?
Seriously?
You DO know that Ukraine has a huge gas storage capacity that is fed, under Ukrainian control, from the gas supplied from Russia?
You DO know that Ukraine has millions of users of gas and they are supplied from Russia using the pipeline under Ukrainian control?
That gas reaches those users and storage by being taken from the pipelines owned, maintained and run by Naftogaz, the Ukrainian company responsible for those pipelines and onward gas delivery to Gazprom clients. Russia pays huge fees to Naftogaz for the transit of that gas (approximately 3% of Ukrainian GDP is from that source alone).
Of course Ukraine can abstract gas, it is how they get the 'reverse transfer' gas. You don't think it all goes through a little pipeline back from Germany or Poland do you? That's why the very term is a lie. The gas is abstracted by Ukraine from supplies bought and paid for by Gazprom's clients in good standing - the only difference to a couple of years ago is that now those countries have been permitting Ukraine to take that gas.
Halo, if you don't know something then ask. Don't assume that the world is how you fantasise, it ain't.
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Novak and Prodan have both stated the proposal is acceptable.
According to the interim agreement, which has to be approved by the governments in Moscow and Kiev, Gazprom is ready to deliver at least five billion cubic metres of gas in the coming months, Oettinger said after he met with both energy ministers in Berlin.
Do you believe ministers are in the habit of making public pronouncements on positions that have not been approved by their governments?
Well, Halo, in fact the Ukrainian prime minister has already rejected the suggestion. As you would have known if you had read something, the suggestion, labelled by some as an agreement, was specifically to be approved by the parties involved at a senior level.
For the EU that's easy, they get what they want.
For Russia that's easy, they might actually get paid for gas already delivered but not paid for and a degree of security for their deliveries to European clients.
Ukraine has already said that they will not pay the price asked, they have refused the Russian government offer which would have given the Ukrainians the price they wanted to pay without reference to the Gazprom pricing structure. Gazprom can't move because they are facing the Stockholm arbitration next summer and so can not act to prejudice their case and Ukraine refuses to withdraw the case.
The Ukraine is in a position of its own choosing, making and under its own control. They hold the key. They can either accept the Russian government offer in respect of duties or withdraw the arbitration claim. In the first case they get the price they want to pay and the arbitration case proceeds and in the second they can abort the arbitration and negotiate their way back to being clients in good standing, rather than thieves.
There's little that the EU and Russia (or Gazprom) can do.
The Ukrainian position is clear, they intend to steal gas and to not pay over the money they were given that was earmarked by lenders for the payment of its gas bills.
The IMF is already warning that Ukraine's abuse of the IMF and its agreements is causing reconsideration of current arrangements with a view to ceasing them.
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Leslie, I think that Gazprom might take such action today, right now. The Russian government however has a different perspective. The Russians want to be seen as good suppliers and understand that this perception can not be maintained if they cease supply. That is why the handling of the 'reverse flows' has been interesting. Gazprom has made it clear that they are meeting their contractual supply requirements to all clients. The buyers have been taking extra gas by allowing Ukraine to abstract it. Of course the buyers do not want to use their own gas to supply Ukraine, they want to use Russian supplies.
Gazprom is thus halting supplies over and above the contracted levels and buyers have been complaining about being 'cut off' or having 'supplies reduced' neither claim is true. That's why Hungary has said that they will no longer provide gas to Ukraine, because the only gas they can give will come out of Hungary's contracted deliveries and Mr Orban does not want his tax payers and gas users to go cold for a bunch of shysters who probably have not even paid the Hungarians for that which they received.
I think that Russia will fill NordStream as much as it can and do the same with the other minor pipelines and make it clear that any shortfall across Ukraine should be taken up with the Ukrainians as a joint effort between European buyers and Gazprom.
On a larger scale, the outcome of the US attempts at regime change in Syria will dictate whether or not SouthStream gets built. If Hassad falls then Europe will be seeing Qatari gas very soon thereafter and SouthStream will not be needed by Gazprom or the EU. The gambit to attack Russia will have worked.
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Do you believe ministers are in the habit of making public pronouncements on positions that have not been approved by their governments?
It doesn't really matter whether ministers are lying on their own or delivering officially sanctioned lies; it's all the same. I doubt that Ukraine is going to pay the full amount of their debt, irrespective of the results of the arbitration. Frankly, I think that Gazprom is out of their collective mind to put any gas in a pipeline that is vulnerable to theft in transit or do business with a country that has a massive outstanding debt.
But this has always been the dance between Russia and Ukraine. Further, with new technology, the ability to steal gas in transit has been reduced to almost nil. The only place gas can still be siphoned is at the entry point, in Lugansk. Since the Russians control that area, any gas stolen is their problem.
You must be misstaken, most gas through ukraine that is headed towards Europe goes through Ukraine shortly north of Kiev. Far away from those darn seperatists.
If I look at the map, they have ample oppertunity to siphon off illegaly.
http://en.ria.ru/infographics/20090609/155206402.html
No, I am not wrong. Gas is transited not only to Europe, but also to Ukraine for domestic purposes. It is transited to the heavy industrial regions of the Donbass, where it is used for industrial purposes. The highly subsidized gas is one of the reasons this region has not modernized.
You and leslie may wish to look at a map. Lugansk is one of the transit points. Further, my point was not about where the gas transits. It was that Russia now monitors pipelines through Ukraine, and will know when, and where, any gas is diverted. The EU, BTW, monitors those pipelines as well.
leslie, please look at my tagline. I offer my opinions. Just like everyone else here.
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Well, Halo, in fact the Ukrainian prime minister has already rejected the suggestion. As you would have known if you had read something, the suggestion, labelled by some as an agreement, was specifically to be approved by the parties involved at a senior level.
AFAIK, Yatseniuk stated Russia wishes to use gas as a weapon. That is not, historically, inaccurate. If you have any statement by him outright rejecting the negotiation, please post it.
As for the government position, I repeat. Ministers do not make pronouncements on agreements being reached if there is a likelihood they will fail.
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In Halo Land, Halo is always right. (:) No point in arguing...
I will just let the gallery form their own opinions.
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Halo, so what you are saying is that your previous statement was factually incorrect. Ukraine can abstract gas at many points across Ukraine as you now have come to agree.
Glad we got that cleared up.
And, yes, we can all have an opinion but they are not all equal in value. Usually a fact based opinion is more useful than a fantasy based one; we often call fantasy based opinions 'stories' or fiction'.
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Further, with new technology, the ability to steal gas in transit has been reduced to almost nil.
Technology is a double-edged sword:
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This was predictable:
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-backs-off-eu-backed-russia-gas-deal-163526789.html
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This was predictable:
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-backs-off-eu-backed-russia-gas-deal-163526789.html
Absolutely no surprise.
Ukraine has no intention of paying its debts and is hoping to get assistance from the EU to obtain gas. I suspect that the hand of the US State Department is firmly rammed up the backside of their puppets in Kiev. This smacks of being another US driven effort to drive a wedge between Europe and Russia. The next step will be that EU clients will try to abstract more gas than they are contracted for, Russia will stop the process and pass on only the contracted amounts which will serve the purpose of aiding Ukraine at the cost of energy security in the EU. After a few days those clients who were taking gas for Ukrainian use will do as Hungary did and stop. Shortly thereafter Ukraine will start abstracting gas without reference to the EU or Gazprom.
The one thing that is now absolutely clear is that it is Ukraine's choice to NOT have gas. It is Ukraine's choice to steal redirect money from the IMF/World Bank/EU and US. The US may accept that as a cost of their program of undeclared war on Russia, but I rather doubt that the other stakeholders will see it in the same way.
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This was predictable:
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-backs-off-eu-backed-russia-gas-deal-163526789.html
All that states is that Ukraine won't drop its arbitration. Gazprom stated the same. That was stated during the negotiations. The negotiations had contemplated the arbitration proceeding. So, I don't believe that statement, in an of itself, has any significance.
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"No final decision was adopted. Not a single document was signed -- period," Naftogaz state energy firm chief Andriy Kobolev wrote in a Facebook post.
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Naftogaz doesn't make the decision on what is signed and what isn't.
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Looks like pro Ukrainian protesters were looking for something to do that would really piss off Putin. Demonstrators in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkov toppled one of the country's largest statues of Vladimir Lenin on Sunday. For those not familiar with Kharkov it is not far from the Russian border. Probably less than a day's journey by tank from the Russian border to Kharkov city centre.
Statues of Lenin, once abundant in Ukraine and a reminder of its past as part of the Soviet Union, have been a common target ever since the start of the revolution that ousted the nation's Russian-leaning leader earlier this year.
Kharkov's statue was a notable exception to the massive cull, not only because of its size but also because previous attempts to take it down were met by opposition from a pro-Russian group, which formed a blockade against Lenin's destruction. The division was emblematic of the rift between Western and Eastern Ukraine that continues to be a source of conflict.
With the toppling of the gigantic statute of Lenin Putin will now have his excuse to openly invade Ukraine to restore the historic ties that bind Ukraine and Russia. :laugh:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/28/Kharkov-lenin-statue_n_5896986.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Not a valid youtube URL
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For those not familiar with Kharkov it is not far from the Russian border. Probably less than a day's journey by tank from the Russian border to Kharkov city centre.
You are in the ranks of the unfamiliar; it's an hour's journey from the Russian border by tank.
[attachimg=1]
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For those not familiar with Kharkov it is not far from the Russian border. Probably less than a day's journey by tank from the Russian border to Kharkov city centre.
You are in the ranks of the unfamiliar; it's an hour's journey from the Russian border by tank.
(Attachment Link)
Tom you're learning to use Google. I just eyeballed the the map, I didn't go into the advanced features. So 36 minutes isn't far from the Russian border. Never having driven a tank and not knowing what type of opposition a Russian tank on Ukrainian soil might face I'd say under a day's journey is reasonably accurate.
Thanks for the visual confirmation of my post. tiphat Good to know others are learning the joys of Google research.
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http://www.inquisitr.com/1504315/vladimir-putin-may-threaten-world-war-3-but-thousands-of-russians-are-marching-for-ukraine/
When Vladimir Putin discusses the possibility of World War 3 he appears to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Putin extends an olive branch by declaring Russia has no plans for “large-scale conflicts” over the Ukraine war, yet at the same time makes threatening statements about Russia’s nuclear weapons and the Russian military’s ability to invade eastern European nations. Tens of thousands of Russian apparently feel enough is enough and have been marching in protest in Moscow.
In a related report by The Inquisitr, former presidential adviser Andrey Illarionov claimed that Vladimir Putin has been planning for a major war since at least 2003. But Nigel Farage, leader of the United Kingdom Independence Party, suggests that the U.S. and Russia need to stop squabbling over Ukraine and instead enlist Putin to focus on the larger threat of the Islamic State. There’s also some who blame the United States for instigating World War 3, although some conspiracy theorists go way out into left field by suggesting a Jewish conspiracy out of Israel is pushing for WW3.
Earlier in the month, Vladimir Putin painted the Ukraine war as being like World War II, except in this case the U.S.-backed Ukraine are the Nazis and the Russian separatists are the Soviet citizens of Leningrad.
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... Never having driven a tank and not knowing what type of opposition a Russian tank on Ukrainian soil might face I'd say under a day's journey is reasonably accurate.
Walking from Russia to Kharkov is less than a day's journey, for Crissakes! It's astonishing that someone could be on this forum for more than half a decade and have no idea where the major cities of Ukraine and Russia are located without checking a map.
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For those not familiar with Kharkov it is not far from the Russian border. Probably less than a day's journey by tank from the Russian border to Kharkov city centre.
You are in the ranks of the unfamiliar; it's an hour's journey from the Russian border by tank.
(Attachment Link)
Tom lets not forget weight limits on UA roads. With the Russian army surplus shopping forces abiding by load limits on UA pavement, I would think the tank trek would be somewhat longer.
Having seen Vlad in Kharkov, I can vouch that it was the biggest I had seen. I'm kind of sad to see it gone, its just another piece of CCCP history that has vanished.
See what Lenin looked like here;
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=6578.0
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... Never having driven a tank and not knowing what type of opposition a Russian tank on Ukrainian soil might face I'd say under a day's journey is reasonably accurate.
Walking from Russia to Kharkov is less than a day's journey, for Crissakes! It's astonishing that someone could be on this forum for more than half a decade and have no idea where the major cities of Ukraine and Russia are located without checking a map.
Tom, as Donny notes the Russian government, who you'd think would be intimately familiar with roads into Ukraine, sent virtually empty trucks of aid to Ukraine due to worries over road conditions.
I'd think my estimation of travel time from just eyeballing a map was reasonably accurate. Add to that my unfamiliarity with travel via tank and I have to think my estimate was even more accurate.
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The Bolsheviks destroyed most monuments from times they took power, scores of buildings, and the majority of the standing churches in the FSU. My better half recalls going to school one morning, walking past the church in which he was baptized. On his way home from school, the church, down to every icon and brick, was gone, replaced by an empty lot on which, eventually, some shoddily built Soviet store was erected. He recalls as a teen coming upon the destruction of another church. He and his friend ran in and removed all the icons, most dating from the 18th century, as the workers asked them why they "needed that cr@p". He said his friend, who was Jewish, was crying at the destruction of this beautiful old building, and the priceless artifacts inside.
So, given Lenin not only approved of, but encouraged, destroying the old to build a "new society, free from the constraints of the past", I cannot lament the destruction of statues of that syphilitic degenerate.
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The Bolsheviks destroyed most monuments from times they took power, scores of buildings, and the majority of the standing churches in the FSU. My better half recalls going to school one morning, walking past the church in which he was baptized. On his way home from school, the church, down to every icon and brick, was gone, replaced by an empty lot on which, eventually, some shoddily built Soviet store was erected. He recalls as a teen coming upon the destruction of another church. He and his friend ran in and removed all the icons, most dating from the 18th century, as the workers asked them why they "needed that cr@p". He said his friend, who was Jewish, was crying at the destruction of this beautiful old building, and the priceless artifacts inside.
So, given Lenin not only approved of, but encouraged, destroying the old to build a "new society, free from the constraints of the past", I cannot lament the destruction of statues of that syphilitic degenerate.
I have actually attended several attempts to behead and/or bring down statues and also seen a successful foray. Very often large numbers of Police and demonstrators involved in confrontation. I have had mixed emotions on the defacing of history-- but equally understand the sentiment and emotion of the symbolism of the dismantling.
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Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak said on Tuesday he hoped Moscow and Kiev would this week settle their differences over a timetable for Ukraine to pay its natural gas debts to Russia.
Novak reiterated that Kiev must repay at least part of its $5.3 billion gas debt before Russia's state-owned gas producer, Gazprom, resumes gas supplies to Ukraine.
He also said Ukraine was ready to pay $3.1 billion of the debt but the timetable for the payment, and the price, were yet to be agreed. Moscow wants Kiev to pay in two tranches - $2 billion before the gas flows restart and $1.1 billion by the end of this year.
Novak said Ukraine wanted to pay in three tranches of $1.5 billion, $0.8 billion and $0.8 billion and wanted to make the payments only after gas flows resume.
Please refer to reply #777.
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The Bolsheviks destroyed most monuments from times they took power, scores of buildings, and the majority of the standing churches in the FSU.
There were over 54,000 churches in 1917 and the number was in the hundreds
by 19391
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion
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Now we have to pay to read their "quality, independent journalism."
[attachimg=1]
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$240 Annually by the month or $50 annually by the year - a bargain at twice the price...
Curious if KievPost carries Slavic Beauty soon to be economic refugee personals?
$50 is a lot cheaper than AWEB just saying :evilgrin0002:
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Halo, that's balderdash. Have you lost connection with reality?
Seriously?
You DO know that Ukraine has a huge gas storage capacity that is fed, under Ukrainian control, from the gas supplied from Russia?
You DO know that Ukraine has millions of users of gas and they are supplied from Russia using the pipeline under Ukrainian control?
That gas reaches those users and storage by being taken from the pipelines owned, maintained and run by Naftogaz, the Ukrainian company responsible for those pipelines and onward gas delivery to Gazprom clients. Russia pays huge fees to Naftogaz for the transit of that gas (approximately 3% of Ukrainian GDP is from that source alone).
Of course Ukraine can abstract gas, it is how they get the 'reverse transfer' gas. You don't think it all goes through a little pipeline back from Germany or Poland do you? That's why the very term is a lie. The gas is abstracted by Ukraine from supplies bought and paid for by Gazprom's clients in good standing - the only difference to a couple of years ago is that now those countries have been permitting Ukraine to take that gas.
Halo, if you don't know something then ask. Don't assume that the world is how you fantasise, it ain't.
Andrew,
Russian gas pricing is always misleading.
Russia charges everyone extra because they can. And they always added 20% to 100% extra for Ukraine. Right now they want Ukraine to pay an extra 30% over the price they charge europeans. And that is AFTER the transit costs. Before transit costs it is really high. 50% or so?
And, no, Russia NEVER paid huge fees for transit prices. They DID pay to rent Sevastopol. And part of that agreement was to keep paying Ukraine so Ukraine could repair their infrastructure.
Further, THE DEBT OWED TO Russia was because of Crimean non-payment. CRIMEA owes Russia, not Ukraine. And that is why the USA placed restrictions upon the Crimean gas company ....
Wayne
It is funny how the media is always saying Ukraine can only make cheap steel, because of cheap gas, when the price Ukraine pays for gas is so expensive.
$4 to $8 / 1000 cubic ft in US $10 in Russia, and a lot higher in spot markets in Asia.
http://www.rollcall.com/news/us_natural_gas_exports_could_change_market-236112-1.html (http://www.rollcall.com/news/us_natural_gas_exports_could_change_market-236112-1.html)
Russia wants $485 USD / 1000 m^3 and Europe is currently selling Ukraine gas at market prices of under $375 USD / 1000 m^3.
http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2014/april/article187802/ (http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2014/april/article187802/)
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_20/EU-to-sell-Ukraine-gas-at-up-to-400-per-1-000-cubic-meters-6843/ (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_20/EU-to-sell-Ukraine-gas-at-up-to-400-per-1-000-cubic-meters-6843/)
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very sad to see the statue go in Kharkov , one of my favourite places is the park surounding freedom square ,
while i understand some of the locals feelings in wanting it removed, it is apart of their histpry that imo should not be removed or forgotten
last summer there was a fantastic display of pictures put on in the park in the centre of Kharkov , they where all from ww2 depicting Kharkov before/during and after german invasion . the general back and forth of the war as it raged across this city , they where well viewed from the crowds present each day and evening , many building s still remain from that time depicted in those photos
Kharkov to the russian border is not far at all a lazy 30 min drive will have you there , & it is good road , tanks would do it in an hour or less i would think even at low speeds , and especially at times of low resistance such as late at night ''IF '' russia chooses it could invade in a very short time across the border into Kharkov and ukraine , even with the current defensive work going on around the Kharkov border region
i would have no doubt russia is monitering all its border in the Kharkov oblast , same as everywhere else , moving/invading across the countryside along /across that border , not using main roads would be fast and easy from my wandering around that area in the countryside
hopefully that wont happen
SX
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So, given Lenin not only approved of, but encouraged, destroying the old to build a "new society, free from the constraints of the past", I cannot lament the destruction of statues of that syphilitic degenerate.
Lenin really could of borrowed a few pointers from the architect's of those older buildings.
I understand your position on this. In no way do I praise the man, he was no prince. What I got from seeing those Lenin monuments while in Ukraine, was that this was a man who made history. The CCCP spanned generations, and its effects are still there on the ground and in the minds of the generations who lived through it.
Growing up in Canada the CCCP was an exotic place, where all the hockey players wore helmets. Yeah that seems silly to read, but that is how I was introduced to the CCCP. Going to see the national team & Moscow? Domino's play, with their sullen faces really stuck with me. Even when I caught a puck from a play, I was sitting just above the Russian bench, and that coach looked at me, with this cold stare, its shit that I'll never forget.
But seeing Lenin's with the young sitting at his feet, and some bringing flowers (I think married couples did this for good luck) allowed me to forget what the man stood for, and his actions. I did once ask a girl why they still have Lenin standing and she basically indicated that he was nothing but a place to gather. So for that I'm sad to see him go, I never cared for his politics.
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http://qz.com/277502/five-things-the-west-can-learn-from-the-ukraine-crisis/
All of these things will keep policy-makers and analysts busy for a long while, but here are five lessons to keep in mind from Ukraine’s crisis:
1. Patriotism can be both enemy and friend
2. There’s a new kind of global protestor
3. Old-fashioned protest reigned supreme
4. Keep brutality off-screen
5. “Coarse power” is the new soft power
Russia fought dirty, but still operates within the paradigms of so-called “political technology.” Russia has invested huge amounts in soft power to rival the West in recent years, but academics have long thought soft power was not the right term. I found the right term in, of all places, Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina—grubaya sila, meaning “coarse power.” Tolstoy was talking about society’s power to repress the individual, but it describes the Kremlin’s modus operandi well—it’s idea of soft power is really covert power, buying support behind the scenes, and using non-violent forms of coercion. Just as so-called “hybrid war” or “information war” (two other Russian favorites) are still war by other means.
But the façade is still important. Russia loves to clone and copy—to steal Western terminology on international law or human rights, and to present its operations as morally equivalent to ours. It therefore copied the Maidan with its own *snip* version—”public meetings” that elected “leaders” that nobody had heard of in Crimea and the Donbas. But at the same time, Russia exploited the key weakness of Maidan politics; nobody actually elected the likes of Volodymyr Parasyuk. The Kremlin is highly-skilled at spinning narratives; its opponents need to avoid such open goals in the future. The West needs to be clear what it is dealing well—not a duplicitous power, but a system built on duplicity.
After the Orange Revolution in 2004 it was actually the Kremlin that learnt the lessons best. To the extent that it thought it was immune from any similar protest wave. Now the learning process begins again.
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Looks like sanctions are starting to have a bigger effect, most knew it would take. To really hurt, will take much more time but as it continues you can the effects on local economy http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3141088-russia-to-compensate-sanctioned-elite.html#.1258-stage-subhero1-1
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Looks like sanctions are starting to have a bigger effect, most knew it would take. To really hurt, will take much more time but as it continues you can the effects on local economy http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3141088-russia-to-compensate-sanctioned-elite.html#.1258-stage-subhero1-1
Russia needs to nationalise anything owned by the countries or individuals in Russia of those following America's sanctions, with American assets first. Start with the embassies and any real estate, move onto business. Sanctions cut both ways. By the time UPS and Fedex are crying in their coffee along with McDonalds, and the door closes to Fiat for Italy, along with a utility price increase, a rapid rethink will happen.
Putin needs to hold his nerve and fight back. The opposition will cave before he does I reckon. His moves will be self financing if he plays it right. He has a lot of cards he can still play.
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Looks like sanctions are starting to have a bigger effect, most knew it would take. To really hurt, will take much more time but as it continues you can the effects on local economy http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3141088-russia-to-compensate-sanctioned-elite.html#.1258-stage-subhero1-1
Russia needs to nationalise anything owned by the countries or individuals in Russia of those following America's sanctions, with American assets first. Start with the embassies and any real estate, move onto business. Sanctions cut both ways. By the time UPS and Fedex are crying in their coffee along with McDonalds, and the door closes to Fiat for Italy, along with a utility price increase, a rapid rethink will happen.
Putin needs to hold his nerve and fight back. The opposition will cave before he does I reckon. His moves will be self financing if he plays it right. He has a lot of cards he can still play.
You could be right, I doubt any of us, truly realize how much these sanctions will or will not affect each nation. I only think if he were fighting only one, what you say makes sense. But where sanctions come from many and the richest, odds are less likely Russian would win in long run.
Personally, I don't think it is good for any of the countries involved.
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I only think if he were fighting only one, what you say makes sense. But where sanctions come from many and the richest, odds are less likely Russian would win in long run.
Europe needs gas and oil. America needs neither from Russia. Europe will soon notice that America's sanctions affect Europe more than America. Finland, Hungary, Czech and a few other places are already eschewing sanctions. Close neighbours don't want to piss off the bear coz Uncle Sam won't send them gas.
Putin isn't dumb. This will level out soon enough. And if he starts to play hardball, watch American big business that wants a bit of 140m consumers pressure the US government to shut up. Finland is already begging the EU for money, Polish farmers are watching piles of apples rot and Warsaw isn't paying their bills. One cold winter with reduced Russian gas will soon make Europe wonder who its friends are.
Putin only has to wait. Europe will eschew America and come to him. Rightly so. America has no business meddling in Europe. Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
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Looks like sanctions are starting to have a bigger effect, most knew it would take. To really hurt, will take much more time but as it continues you can the effects on local economy http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3141088-russia-to-compensate-sanctioned-elite.html#.1258-stage-subhero1-1
Russia needs to nationalise anything owned by the countries or individuals in Russia of those following America's sanctions, with American assets first. Start with the embassies and any real estate, move onto business. Sanctions cut both ways. By the time UPS and Fedex are crying in their coffee along with McDonalds, and the door closes to Fiat for Italy, along with a utility price increase, a rapid rethink will happen.
Putin needs to hold his nerve and fight back. The opposition will cave before he does I reckon. His moves will be self financing if he plays it right. He has a lot of cards he can still play.
I wonder what the rouble exchange rate and capital outflows out of Russia would be under such a scenario? :laugh:
Sanctions don't cut both ways equally. That is why they have been adopted as a tool by the US and the more time passes the more they will hit the Russian economy which is a lot more fragile than you think it is :)
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Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
[/quote]
This of course is your opinion, not everyones, here or elsewhere.
To say you have blinders on, would be an understatement.
Last several months, not a debate, you write as if hard cold facts.
Most realize two sides to all stories, and to say its is grey, not Black / white
another understatement. to blame one side fully is at least naive.
I and others who have family and friends in country, speak what they say is going on
and seeing, been told nonsense on more than a few occasions.
Experts here, who have never been, just know better on all fronts.
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I believe the sanctions are doing Russia more harm than many think. Anyways, that is what the Western economic geniuses say. :)
Russia is currently said to be in talks with India to raise capital by selling off a large number of shares in several gas companies. Either smart of Russia to move away from the West a bit or they are gearing up for hard times. We will see I guess.
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Putin only has to wait. Europe will eschew America and come to him. Rightly so. America has no business meddling in Europe. Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
manny , maybe iv missed it , but i havent read any of your posts that are critical of your own gov meddling in other peoples business ?
the uk seems quite happy to meddle in conflicts , arnt they doing it now ?? in the same places you mention above ? why is that ok ?? as well as all the other places around the globe your country meddles in ??
theres lots of them your mob fights in including your home grown terrorists illegal ones with the beheadings lately ?
why is it valid for the uk to support and get involved in conflicts /wars but not the US ??
you post like the US is a devil , but the uk is a lamb , :) :)
SX
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Putin only has to wait. Europe will eschew America and come to him. Rightly so. America has no business meddling in Europe. Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
manny , maybe iv missed it , but i havent read any of your posts that are critical of your own gov meddling in other peoples business ?
the uk seems quite happy to meddle in conflicts , arnt they doing it now ?? in the same places you mention above ? why is that ok ?? as well as all the other places around the globe your country meddles in ??
theres lots of them your mob fights in including your home grown terrorists illegal ones with the beheadings lately ?
why is it valid for the uk to support and get involved in conflicts /wars but not the US ??
you post like the US is a devil , but the uk is a lamb , :) :)
SX
true, All big powerful countries have some skeletons in closet, including Russia.
The fact the USA as far as Military power goes, they are also first ones all countries want involved
including UK. As I said not so black and white.
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Regardless of who started the invasion, Russia is killing soldiers and civilians in Ukraine.
And Ukraine has no desire to back down, even though the EU and US are not allowing Ukraine the financial and military support Ukraine needs.
The only option?
Economic pressure. The longer this continues the greater Russia will hurt and the greater Ukraine will hurt.
Maybe it is time for Europe to hurt? They have meddled long enough in Ukraine, they have taxed Ukraine, and they have benefited from Ukraine.
Maybe it is time for the Europe to help bring peace for once?
Wayne
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Putin only has to wait. Europe will eschew America and come to him. Rightly so. America has no business meddling in Europe. Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
manny , maybe iv missed it , but i havent read any of your posts that are critical of your own gov meddling in other peoples business ?
the uk seems quite happy to meddle in conflicts , arnt they doing it now ?? in the same places you mention above ? why is that ok ?? as well as all the other places around the globe your country meddles in ??
theres lots of them your mob fights in including your home grown terrorists illegal ones with the beheadings lately ?
why is it valid for the uk to support and get involved in conflicts /wars but not the US ??
you post like the US is a devil , but the uk is a lamb , :) :)
SX
The UK does not instigate this stuff, it merely follows America like a lap dog. They shouldn't, and with a proper government (if we ever get one) they wont. But the UK is not the one projecting its opinion all across the world; only the US does that. We should not support Americas regime changes, terrorism and funding of terrorists across the world.
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Gazprom has destroyed its image as a reliable gas supplier to Europe, and keeps doing so, which I believe is very irrational from their side.
Ukraine, on the other hand, has maintained their image as a pack of thieves who don't pay their gas bills.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/10/10/ukraine_gas_boss_gazprom_destroyed_its_image_as_a_reliable_supplier
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Gazprom has destroyed its image as a reliable gas supplier to Europe, and keeps doing so, which I believe is very irrational from their side.
Ukraine, on the other hand, has maintained their image as a pack of thieves who don't pay their gas bills.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/10/10/ukraine_gas_boss_gazprom_destroyed_its_image_as_a_reliable_supplier
The bill Russia wants paid is for CRIMEAN gas .... you know ... that piece of land Russia stole from Ukraine?
Wayne
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Putin only has to wait. Europe will eschew America and come to him. Rightly so. America has no business meddling in Europe. Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
manny , maybe iv missed it , but i havent read any of your posts that are critical of your own gov meddling in other peoples business ?
the uk seems quite happy to meddle in conflicts , arnt they doing it now ?? in the same places you mention above ? why is that ok ?? as well as all the other places around the globe your country meddles in ??
theres lots of them your mob fights in including your home grown terrorists illegal ones with the beheadings lately ?
why is it valid for the uk to support and get involved in conflicts /wars but not the US ??
you post like the US is a devil , but the uk is a lamb , :) :)
SX
The UK does not instigate this stuff, it merely follows America like a lap dog. They shouldn't, and with a proper government (if we ever get one) they wont. But the UK is not the one projecting its opinion all across the world; only the US does that. We should not support Americas regime changes, terrorism and funding of terrorists across the world.
Manny,
While I agree Obama (not the US) and his State Department funded terrorism and regime change, I do not agree that his mistake is a reason (good or bad) for Russia to invade Ukraine.
I understand Putin feels cornered, and no doubt China is right behind him, but Ukraine was the wrong move.
He should have shut down Obama's failed ME policies of attacking Assad. Russia was doing very well containing ISIS until they pulled their mercs back to invade Ukraine.
It would have been much easier for him to put the Queen in her place in Syria than in Ukraine. Now the Queen is getting world wide support for her extended CommonWealth.
And she is able to do that through Obama ....
Don't you think?
Wayne
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The bill Russia wants paid is for CRIMEAN gas .... you know ... that piece of land Russia stole from Ukraine?
Wayne
11.5 billion cubic meters of gas remain unpaid. Ukraine wants to calculate their debt based on the Customs Union rate of $286 for the entire amount and Russia wants it calculated at $485, beginning in April. The figures have been in the news for months. Someone would have to be living in a cave to be ignorant of them.
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We are ready to abide by the agreement on pulling back heavy equipment... as soon as the terrorists stop firing at our positions and residential areas. In general there is progress in negotiations... but I have to say that we are not surrendering a single town, we are not retreating, we are staying put.
If Ukrainian troops don't pull back, another Ilovaisk might be in the making. I can't envision the defenders of Donetsk putting up with the shelling of the city forever.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-poroshenko-says-meet-putin-italy-next-week-005032136.html
Westy won't make a prediction until after the fact so I'll make one. If Naftogaz doesn't pay their bill, I doubt that the fighting will end as long as any Ukrainian troops remain in Lugansk or Donetsk oblasts. If the gas bill gets paid, the fighting might stop after the troops are pushed out of range of Lugansk and Donetsk city limits.
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Note the choice of words:
Russia cut off gas supplies to Ukraine in June, saying the Kiev government had not settled its debts.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29586627
Russia cut off gas supplies because Naftogaz had not settled its debts.
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http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/back-to-school-in-rebel-east-ukraine-to-the-sound-of-bombs-and-soviet-songs/ar-BB8ktuN
Back to school in rebel east Ukraine - to the sound of bombs and Soviet songs.
Pupils sit in their temporary classroom on the first day of school in the Gymnasium 33 school in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, on October 1, 2014. Students are using a nearby building as their school was damaged in shelling. According to Unicef, 74 schools and 44 kindergartens have been damaged in spite of the cease fire in the area of Donetsk and Lougansk. John MacDougall/AFP/Getty Images© John MacDougall/AFP/Getty Images Pupils sit in their temporary classroom on the first day of school in the Gymnasium 33 school in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, on October … MAKIYIVKA Ukraine - On the first day of school outside the east Ukrainian rebel stronghold of Donetsk, 11th-grade teacher Yelena Sepik tells her class to get out of their seats to clap and sing along to the Soviet military music playing over the speakers.
"Louder!" she yells, theatrically clapping in rhythm to the music coming from a classroom CD player in front of around 30 unamused 15- and 16-year-olds in the town of Makiyivka.
"We have witnessed the formation of a new state," she says. "The Donetsk People's Republic, New Russia."
Half a year into the Republic, proclaimed on territory held by pro-Russian separatists since April, the region's new rulers are trying to create a sense of normality and the trappings of a functioning state, not least in the education system.
But there is much that is not 'normal'.
For one thing, there has been an exodus of Ukrainian-speakers and others reluctant to live in Russia's orbit under an armed rebel administration. Schoolteachers say their classes have shrunk to as little as a third of their pre-insurgency sizes.
Shelling in the city, which has killed scores of civilians, delayed the opening of schools from Sept. 1, the traditional start of term across the former Soviet Union, to Oct. 1.
Although a ceasefire has been agreed between Kiev and the separatists, the crash of distant artillery fire still carries as far as Sepik's third-floor classroom, where three classes have been combined into one, making seating scarce.
For the children who have stayed, a new curriculum awaits, with mentions of Ukraine carefully avoided, and a new focus on the history of Russia and the separatist regions.
Moscow vehemently denies accusations from Kiev and the West that it has backed the separatists with weapons and soldiers, but its influence is never far away from the classrooms, where teachers openly praise President Vladimir Putin.
Textbooks are covered in dust in a damaged school in Donetsk on October 1, 2014, after a shell exploded nearby. Four people were killed in the blast, which took place on the first day of school in a neighborhood close to the airport. John MacDougall/AFP/Getty Images© John MacDougall/AFP/Getty Images Textbooks are covered in dust in a damaged school in Donetsk on October 1, 2014, after a shell exploded nearby. Four people were killed in the blast, which took place on…
WHOSE HISTORY?
Much of the former Soviet Union shares the same school traditions, including a first lesson of the school year devoted to broad morals or civic values.
In communist times, this might have meant lessons on Bolshevik revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, or international Socialism; more recently perhaps on peace, or social skills.
But in this school year, children in the rest of Ukraine are focusing on "national unity" for the first period of their year, and those in the secessionist east are learning about the history they share with Russia.
In the Matviyivka class, that means World War Two, known in Russia and Ukraine as the Great Patriotic War.
The students watch a black-and-white documentary about the region's battles, with a voiceover that drifts between the city's current name of Donetsk and its Soviet name of Stalino, after wartime leader Josef Stalin.
History teacher Natalia Kudoyar expects more changes to her curriculum.
"World history will be studied in depth, Russian history," she says. "But our priority is the history of Donbass (the industrial region around Donetsk). Because it is our region; we are proud of our region."
The idea that this region is at the very least culturally part of Russia, and far removed from a Ukraine whose rulers are routinely labeled fascists, is as pervasive in the classroom as it is in the rebel administration's public statements.
Irina, a teacher in a Ukrainian-language school who declined to give her last name, said all Ukrainian national symbols had been removed from the classrooms.
"We still use the old curriculum, but the school principal said that, in my 9th-grade class, the number of hours for Ukrainian language and literature will be reduced," she said.
On Putin's birthday on Tuesday, a video was posted on YouTube showing children in another school in Donetsk being asked who had done the most for peace in their region. "Putin," said the teacher. "Putin!" the children repeated.
PRESSURE TO USE RUSSIAN
Unsurprisingly, language is a central part of that cultural struggle. While everyone in the region is fluent in Russian, some speak Ukrainian as their first language.
Before Donetsk's municipal administration building was occupied by protesters in mid-April, the Donetsk region had a roughly equal number of Russian- and Ukrainian-language schools, and parents decided which to send their children to.
On Monday, Kirill Baryshnikov, spokesman for the Donetsk People's Republic's Ministry of Education, told Reuters: "We don't make anyone study in Russian or in Ukrainian. We have two state languages."
But the pressure on everyone to speak Russian rather than Ukrainian is growing. On Thursday, the same ministry issued an order making Russian the official language for all education.
It said the only exception would be primary or secondary schools where 90 percent of parents requested teaching in "another language" -- there was no direct mention of Ukrainian. Schoolbooks written in Ukrainian would continue to be used until new Russian-language ones could be issued.
A teacher of Ukrainian named Marina, who also declined to give her surname, said she saw "no future" for Ukrainian-language schools in Donetsk. "It hurts so much," she said.
Maria Ivanitskaya, a mother who has left Donetsk for Kiev with her 12-year-old son, said she feared that Ukrainian-language schools could attract violence from people sympathetic to the rebels, and had no desire to return.
"I got a call from my son's teacher. She asked if we were going to attend school this year," she said.
"But our school is Ukrainian, and I'm scared of provocations. I called my husband in Donetsk, and he said: 'Whatever you do, don't come back'."
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Congrats Huilo! The ruble continues to plunge downward.
"The ruble broke through the Central Bank's new boundaries straight after trading began, later hitting a low of 45.26 against the basket."
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/508753.html
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Some people here do not seem to understand why the Ukraine shells Donetsk. The Ukraine is not trying to take more area from the rebels it is the other way around. The Rebels want to take the airport because they need the airport. So they attacked it nearly everyday. The Ukrainians retaliate and shell some something in the city the rebels want to get them to stop. The rebels could easily take the airport. So why don't they? That is easy. They would have to destroy it in order to take it and they need it. Lugansk has the same problem just a little different. The Ukraine holds the city electric plant. Lugansk already destroyed their airport and do not to lose the power plant. They attack the power plant and the Ukraine shell some in responce. The rebels are unable to take the power plant without destroy it.
The Ukraine just build a billion dollar airport terminal in 2012 in Donetsk. So the attacks on the airport has destroyed the control tower. The structure still stands but is it completely gutted and walls full of holes. The terminal is badly damaged but still repairable. Rebels trying to enter the terminal have been quickly killed the the Ukrainians. The rebels could work out a peace deal with the Ukrainians to used the airport but they do not want that. I bet in the end the airport including the runways get destroyed and the Ukrainians do leave. I understand there is some runway damage already.
The power plant is most likely a different story this winter. They already will not have any gas and if the take the power plant they will not have any electricity in Lugansk neither. Few people would want to live in Lugansk doing the winter without gas and Electricity. The problem with gas in Lugansk is more than Russia cut off the gas. There are over 300 gas main breaks caused by the war that need to be repaired. I heard Russia was sending some pipe but as of a couple weeks ago I understand most of these repairs have not been made.
Their is very little work in these cities. Most residents have very little money to pay for electricity and gas. Poverty is wide spread like it never has been. No one is willing to invest any money in the rebels areas. No IMF loans for these guys. Russia does not seem to want to spend the many billons of dollars it would take to restore these areas. It will be very interesting what all this look like next summer.
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Texan, while it is sometimes fun to read that which you copy/paste without reference often that which you paste is simply incorrect.
It is hard to see why anyone 'needs' the airport at this time, or in the near future. The Russians do not.
It is useless as a military base but the region is already studded with bases of all sorts from Soviet and Ukrainian times. It is no use as a forward artillery position because of its location.
If there were to be Russian military present they'd be using weapons that were fireable from safety and thus with greater range.
There's no need for it as an airfield, it is broken. However there are plenty of other places that could be used, but again the distance between the border and the rebel held front lines is so small that road or rail transport would be more efficient than air.
No, the reality is simple. The forces holding the airport were firing upon the city of Donetsk and killing civilians. They continued to do so even when they could no longer do so from the surface.
The people at the airport were repeatedly offered the opportunity to withdraw and they chose to not do so and continued with unaimed barrages on Donetsk for as long as they were being resupplied from the west.
Texas, before posting the fools gold you pick up as though you thought it genuine it would help to look at the realities. A moment of thought would reveal to you that almost every point made in your copy/paste effort was fundamentally flawed and untouched by the sword of truth.
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Texas, andrew before posting the fools gold you pick up as though you thought it genuine it would help to look at the realities. A moment of thought would reveal to you that almost every point made in your copy/paste propoganda effort was fundamentally flawed and untouched by the sword of truth.]
id sugggest andrew you follow your own advice and check out the numerous sources available as to why the airport is still considered a strategic position & who is violating the ceasfire
posting as you are above is just reaffirming your ignorance
SX
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Putin only has to wait. Europe will eschew America and come to him. Rightly so. America has no business meddling in Europe. Thousands died needlessly in Ukraine because of American meddling. Same as in Iraq/Syria now and any other place far from America where America is the common denominator. People are slowly waking up to the worlds most prolific terrorist state.
manny , maybe iv missed it , but i havent read any of your posts that are critical of your own gov meddling in other peoples business ?
the uk seems quite happy to meddle in conflicts , arnt they doing it now ?? in the same places you mention above ? why is that ok ?? as well as all the other places around the globe your country meddles in ??
theres lots of them your mob fights in including your home grown terrorists illegal ones with the beheadings lately ?
why is it valid for the uk to support and get involved in conflicts /wars but not the US ??
you post like the US is a devil , but the uk is a lamb , :) :)
SX
The UK does not instigate this stuff, it merely follows America like a lap dog. They shouldn't, and with a proper government (if we ever get one) they wont. But the UK is not the one projecting its opinion all across the world; only the US does that. We should not support Americas regime changes, terrorism and funding of terrorists across the world.
your are using some twisted logic here ,
surely your gov by sending your military to support the US &others in conflicts is just as guilty ?
the UK is pushing the democracy is best line as much as anyone else surely ?
SX
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The Donetsk airport is not important. What is important is that whoever controls the area surrounding the airport also controls main roads to surrounding towns that are and are not terrorist held. Without the main highways, some towns would be cut off and become part of the terrorist network by default.
So it is important for that reason and from a military view also. Both sides want it. It would expand the area controlled by the terrorists to more towns that do not want them and allow more free movement to other cities such as Lughansk and Mariupol. From the government side it would keep some control over that expansion and reach.
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bagalia , while i agree in part , there is more to it as below imho
SX
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/05/whats-so-important-about-donetsk-airport/
http://www.cp24.com/world/ukraine-rebels-close-in-on-strategic-donetsk-airport-1.2033897
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-russia-targets-20141007-story.html
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/25183353/ukrainian-rebels-keep-up-attacks-on-government-held-airport-in-donetsk/
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-donetsk-airport-battle-cease-fire/26627323.html
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The airport is not important short term but very important long term. The airport reduces the cost of doing business in the city. If you want investment to return to the area and start to have jobs the airport is important. Rebels have claimed to have completely retaken it. But today's news again more shelling around Donetsk airport. So who is doing the shelling and why? If the airport is not important then why did Russia build it in the first place and the Ukraine spend so much up dating it? The Donetsk airport was to handle 5 million passengers per year. It was an important part of the Donetsk economy. It in pretty bad shape now.
Yes, the Ukrainians have been offered a chance to give up and have refused. Why don't the rebels just flatten the place with grads like they did at Lugansk airport?
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http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/754195
Ukraine insists that Russian gas deliveries should not be realized on prepaymant terms, Ukraine's Energy Minister Yuri Prodan said Monday. In an interview to a Ukrainian online edition, Prodan said Ukraine should pay for Russian gas upon its delivery. Earlier Monday, Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak said Ukraine doesn't agree to pay part of the outstanding debt for Russian gas before supplies begin.
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Texas, andrew before posting the fools gold you pick up as though you thought it genuine it would help to look at the realities. A moment of thought would reveal to you that almost every point made in your copy/paste propoganda effort was fundamentally flawed and untouched by the sword of truth.]
id sugggest andrew you follow your own advice and check out the numerous sources available as to why the airport is still considered a strategic position & who is violating the ceasfire
posting as you are above is just reaffirming your ignorance
SX
So, how exactly do you think I was wrong? If you are going to try to make a point then back up your assertion with some fact based argument. Simply gainsaying what another person writes shows a high degree of immaturity coupled with a significant knowledge deficit. That ain't how proper people persuade other proper people of anything, we grew out of that by age six.
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Texas, at this point nothing is long term. Long term, for the rebels is 3 months. For the Junta it is an even shorter horizon.
The suggestion that the remnants of Ukrainian forces in the airport don't pull out or surrender because they can't do so make sense. The chances are that sanity is no longer a part of the management process for the remainder of the Ukrainian forces in the airport. Think ww2 and the late Pacific campaign.
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Texan, it's Ukraine not The Ukraine. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't live in The Scotland either.
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For those who have yet to look at a map of the region; it is unlikely that Donetsk airport would be of much use to supply the region. It is at the far edge of rebel held territory and thus it would be asking for trouble for anyone to fly into it. Also, if one were to be seeking a convenient point for the supply of humanitarian aid the road network is safer and airports in Russia are closer to the areas in need (with the possible exception of Donetsk itself).
Bear in mind that Russian planes (and that includes those used by Ukraine) tend to be designed to use much rougher airfields than western planes. Donetsk simply is not necessary or sensible for use in the short term and, should Novorossiya become an established entity then Donetsk can be repaired to suit western aircraft when required.
The reason for taking the airport is simple. Forces there have been shelling Donetsk in an indiscriminate fashion and it is necessary to close down that activity.
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Untrue. The terrorists broke the ceasefire, including at the airport. Their attack on the airport commenced on October 1/2.
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Yes, the Ukrainians have been offered a chance to give up and have refused. Why don't the rebels just flatten the place with grads like they did at Lugansk airport?
The separatists could fill the place with gasoline and watch the fun, like the Right Sector et al. did on a smaller scale in Odessa. For whatever reason, however, someone in control has made the decision to wait it out, rather than roast the counterparts of Colorado beetles. It's possible that gas interests (especially repayment of past debt) are prompting patience, rather than another bloodbath.
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The separatists could fill the place with gasoline and watch the fun, like the Right Sector et al. did on a smaller scale in Odessa. For whatever reason, however, someone in control has made the decision to wait it out, rather than roast the counterparts of Colorado beetles. It's possible that gas interests (especially repayment of past debt) are prompting patience, rather than another bloodbath.
There is no proof Pravyi Sekhtor was involved in firebombing. There is evidence from eyewitnesses that pro Russian separatists were shooting at the crowd from the building, and throwing Molotov cocktails. There are even theories among those in Odessa that pro separatists started the fire.
On another note, here is the free and open democracy residents can expect to enjoy in the "Banderivtsi free" LNR -
http://lugradar.net/2014/10/38361
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Bubba, please calm down and be rational.
You are in Ukraine, so you have an opportunity to provide a perspective others here, with no ties to Ukraine, cannot.
Demonizing an entire ethnic group is also rather silly.
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To anybody with even a shread of intelligence your post above and tagline's etc are just plain offensive :sick0012:
Grow up!!!
I think that his posts are very funny. They should be kept intact as a cautionary tale about the dangers of moving to Little Somalia.
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Unfair to tens of millions of Ukrainians, Tom.
I have a relative who suffered a severe injury. She has had three surgeries, all of which would be complicated in the West as well. She has no private insurance, so all was done in state hospitals. She is receiving extraordinary care, a disability pension, and has, between surgeries, been sent for therapy.
I have many relatives living on pensions and, even in these trying times, their basic needs are met.
I have relatives attending state subsidized universities in Ukraine. They continue to attend school, even now.
As you know, I am not one who has shied away from all the problems in Ukraine, including its incredibly corrupt politicians. However, Ukraine is hardly "Little Somalia", and it is not useful to engage in such hyperbole based on some irrational hatred you appear to have for Ukraine and, apparently, Ukrainians.
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You, of all people, should know that I used the pejorative term just to take a poke at the wack-job.
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Since I am a retired Humanities professor and former high school English teacher...
:ROFL:
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Anyone who would like some background should click on this link.
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=18928.0
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You, of all people, should know that I used the pejorative term just to take a poke at the wack-job.
That wasn't how I read it either, as it's not the first time you've made the comparison.
Paying their bills with borrowed money, with no means or intention of repayment, is a little crazy. Sooner or later, their benefactors will tire of dumping funds into Somalia Ukraine.
Bubba, you need to come to your senses. Writing 'kill all Russians' in capital letters is not behaviour of an academic. If you don't like what the government is doing, fine; however, don't tar a whole nation with the same brush.
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... it's not the first time you've made the comparison.
I never claimed otherwise.
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Oil at $85.04 a barrel today while I am writing this. Current oil prices. http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
Since their is a relationship between the price of oil and the Russian weapons programs I thought this interesting. Andrew said, the US oil would be in big trouble if oil got below 85 dollars per barrel. I think we will soon see.
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Maybe a good sign, only time will tell.
But with the problems in middle east that
threatens any civilized nation, they can start to build
what has been lost in last year, along with more sensible talks
on Ukraine's issues. Lets hope.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/us/3151228-us-russia-vow-intel-sharing-islamic.html#.1258-stage-hero1-8
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The separatists could fill the place with gasoline and watch the fun, like the Right Sector et al. did on a smaller scale in Odessa.
Actually Tom they did that. The separatist flooded the underground places with kerosene to try to get rid of the last of Ukrainians at the airport. I do not think it had anything to do with revenge but more on how not to lose any more troops.
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"The separatists could fill the place with gasoline and watch the fun, like the Right Sector et al. did on a smaller scale in Odessa."
Actually Tom they did that. The separatist flooded the underground places with kerosene to try to get rid of the last of Ukrainians at the airport. I do not think it had anything to do with revenge but more on how not to lose any more troops.
Do you have a link to an article?
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I saw it in a video by the separatist put out. They said they over ran the airport but still had Ukrainians that would pop up and cause trouble for them. They thought they were hiding in the under ground parts of the airport. I did not make note of the video link.
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It's odd that K'yiv isn't wailing about kerosene being used on their troops.
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Seems it was halo's mission to post about how people were welcoming their liberators. Btw, ukrainian TV (akmike from Uganda, privet :king:)
https://www.youtube.com//v/5cTVIkBgNeA
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https://www.youtube.com//v/5cTVIkBgNeA
From this video:
2:13 “We do not have hot water at all. For the last 20 years we have cold water 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening. We do not have natural gas for the past three months. We use electricity to cook."
8:49
Women curse and fight Ukrainian solders. They call them Poroshenko’s killers.
They say Timoshenko and others are murders and criminals
10:40
Woman asks “Can you call this boy a separatist? Did he kill somebody?”
12:14
"Shooting is from Ukrainian Army side."
13:35
Woman says” We do not cry any more. We do not have tears. We are numb.”
Men said that Ukrainian government will not hold this territory anyway. They just do not let people live how they want to live. They are all killers in government.
It was said that they come to their apartments to eat only. They go to work during the day and sleep in special shelter where they are protected from bombs.
Кошмар!
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In areas that have been liberated, the population has welcomed them.
BTW, a poster elsewhere (unlike you, an ethnic Russian) stated that a friend of his from Donbas was pro terrorist. Then she noticed that anytime there was a shelling, immediately before, there was a Russian television crew there.
I am not suggesting ATO does not shell areas. But, so do the terrorists, who also carry out extra judicial executions, kidnapping for ransom, and other crimes.
http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/26637279.html
Meanwhile, freedom of thought, Russian style, comes to Crimea.
http://www.dw.de/%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC-%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BC%D1%83-%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8-%D0%BC%D1%96%D1%81%D1%8F%D1%86%D1%96-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%83-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%97-%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B8/a-17996643
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Meanwhile, freedom of thought, Russian style, comes to Crimea.
http://www.dw.de/%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC-%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BC%D1%83-%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8-%D0%BC%D1%96%D1%81%D1%8F%D1%86%D1%96-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D1%83-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%97-%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B8/a-17996643
Having been to Crimea only a month ago, i find this article misrepresenting the truth 100%. Dunno where it was shot, but not in Crimea as even most tatars are happy there now.
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Have you spoken to the families of the disappeared Crimeans, mostly Tatars?
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/07/crimea-enforced-disappearances
The number of missing ethnic Tatars is reported at 18. Two have been found murdered.
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Have you spoken to the families of the disappeared Crimeans, mostly Tatars?
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/07/crimea-enforced-disappearances
The number of missing ethnic Tatars is reported at 18. Two have been found murdered.
Have you spoken to the families that are happy?
It might be that those 18 just made the wrong friends and the change in g'vt had nothing todo with it.
245.000 Crimean tatars and 18 dissapeared? sounds like genocide, to the battlements!
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halo, почитай на досуге.
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/5896-prestupleniya-aydara.html
Дела, между прочим, украинская прокуратура завела, территория ими оккупированная.
А пропавших татар можно попробовать в ИГИЛ поискать. Кстати, в отличии от японцев и алеутов, ни один из которых не был замешан в пособничестве нацистам, но отсидел в американских концлагерях, две трети мужского населения крымских татар служили у немцев карателями.
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This is definitely the view from the Ukrainian side:
http://news.kuwaittimes.net/ukraine-retakes-donetsk-airport-fighting-rages-eastern-city-dozens-dead/
The article is dated today but it looks to me like the Kuwait Times is behind the times.
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File under Binge and Purge...
Latest Pogrom...
http://www.vox.com/2014/10/17/6989397/russia-mcdonalds-putin-ukraine-yolo
Russia is conducting a massive McDonald's purge
Ostensibly, these McDonald's are being closed for health reasons. But analysts are skeptical.
"Russia has a tendency to ban foreign products, particularly food, for political reasons," National Journal's Marina Koren writes. The closures are designed, she says, "to send a message to the US and the Russians they may be trying to reach: The West is not welcome here." Starting with the Pushkin Square Mickey D's made that point, especially to Russians who remember the location's symbolic importance as a mark of the Cold War's end and of America's victory.
In purely economic terms, the war on McDonald's is, like so much of Russia's recent lashing out at the West, mostly self-defeating. There are give-or-take 437 McDonald's in Russia and they purchase about 85 percent of their supplies from Russian companies. So the anti-McDonald's campaign is, in a way, a microcosm of Putin's entire approach to the Ukraine crisis: damn the economic costs, full speed ahead on aggressive nationalist symbolic gestures.
Curious how many have been closed for "renovations in Ukraine" - due to mortar and howitzer shells???
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437 Mcdonalds would employ about 12 to 15,000 Russians. I bet the Mcdonalds with all the health problems just happen to have outside Russia ownership and the ones without any problems just happen to be owned by Russians or citizens of countries that Putin think are friendly. The belief is that Russia will or might attack some business unfairly is one really bad sanction against Russia and a part of the cause of its currency slide. It is little the US did but rather what Russia is doing to itself. It has caused many Westerners to take their money outside Russia and many Russians agree and taking their money out too. Too many sellers of Rubles and no buyers equals price drop. Russia has already lost nearly 20 per cent of it currency reserve trying to slow the fall of the ruble.
Manny pointed out that Russia only has an 8% dept ratio but still nobody want to buy Russian bonds. Not even china. Part of this is the fear that Putin will get angry one day and not pay. The west could not really impost any serous sanctions against Russia because Russia has sold 72 billion of bonds to western banks. The banking system in Europe could not stand that size of a hit if Putin did not pay. So now EU banks are sellers of Russian bonds making it even harder for Russia to sell bonds prop up it's currency.
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we will see.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3161376-ukraine-russia-agreed-to-supply-gas.html#.1258-stage-hero1-8
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we will see.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3161376-ukraine-russia-agreed-to-supply-gas.html#.1258-stage-hero1-8
This article has been on several news outlets and there is nothing new. The core issue is that the deal will fall apart if Ukraine doesn't pay a substantial part of their gas bill... which is likely because Naftogaz is not famous for paying their bills.
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Manny pointed out that Russia only has an 8% dept ratio but still nobody want to buy Russian bonds. Not even china. Part of this is the fear that Putin will get angry one day and not pay.
Where did I say this? Do you have a link?
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Texan 'betting' is no substitute for knowledge. If you made a bet you'd have just lost.
McDonald's in Russia is run by a Russian firm set up by a Canadian yonks ago. Quality seems to have suffered as a result of some management issues. Those who have actually been in a Russian McDonald's are probably aware that while they are good by local standards, they are often not quite as pristine as they would be in other places.
If there were a conspiracy to remove the firm from Russia then it is unlikely that only a handful of outlets would have been closed, there'd not have been the ongoing inspections, there'd have been a blanket closure n the basis of the findings in the first few outlets checked. This is about management not following the guidelines set down in the operations manuals. It happens.
Until recently almost all branches of McDonald's in Russia were company owned. Most still are, 314 of the total of 430 odd as I recall. Rosinter, another Russian firm is the first and only licensee, coming on board in 2012. Last I saw though the Rosinter branches were all OK - that may have changed as inspections move across the country.
Texan77 try to exchange some prejudice and lack of knowledge with a little knowledge. It'll save you making losing bets. There's no prejudice, just a firm that has not been living up to the high standards set in the US and thus not meeting the requirements of the local market.
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When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/10/19/ap-ukraine-says-russia-has-agreed-to-supply-gas/17574253/
President Petro Poroshenko said in a television interview late Saturday that Russia has agreed to supply Ukraine with gas through March 31 at a price of $385 per 1,000 cubic meters.
'I can say that Ukraine will have gas, Ukraine will have heating,' he said.
http://fortune.com/2014/10/22/russia-calls-europes-bluff-on-ukraine-gas-deal/
Talks break down after E.U. refuses to guarantee Kiev’s payment for this winter’s gas.
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Tom, the 'West' has a problem. Because the media have been lying to their audiences and not questioning the lies that they are given to pass on to their audiences they now have a problem in dealing with the lies that lying liars tell.
They are kinda out of the habit of doing journalism and are now in the business of distributing press releases and talking points.
The reality is that anyone who is half aware (which is NOT most of the audience for mass western media) understands that what poroshenko claimed was a lie. We know it because his statement flew in the face of the facts as they exist, but which tend to remain unreported, or are spun to make a different framing of a story.
I wonder just how most of today's journalists and editorial staffs square what they are doing with their consciences and with what they learned in the early days of their craft.
When I was younger I wanted to be a journalist. I can't imagine many teenagers these days wanting to be a journalist.
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When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/10/19/ap-ukraine-says-russia-has-agreed-to-supply-gas/17574253/
President Petro Poroshenko said in a television interview late Saturday that Russia has agreed to supply Ukraine with gas through March 31 at a price of $385 per 1,000 cubic meters.
'I can say that Ukraine will have gas, Ukraine will have heating,' he said.
http://fortune.com/2014/10/22/russia-calls-europes-bluff-on-ukraine-gas-deal/
Talks break down after E.U. refuses to guarantee Kiev’s payment for this winter’s gas.
Considering the second article, i'd say they are catching on, or we would have guaranteed payment from ukraine.
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So was Putin lying too?
Russia's Vladimir Putin told reporters that a deal ensuring gas supplies "at least for the winter" had been reached after a final one-on-one meeting with Ukraine's Petro Poroshenko, which followed talks attended by European leaders.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/17/us-ukraine-crisis-meeting-idUSKCN0I52YO20141017
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http://www.mail.com/int/news/us/3166460-berlin-wall-kerry-warns-cold-war-redux.html#.1258-stage-hero1-14
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So was Putin lying too?
Russia's Vladimir Putin told reporters that a deal ensuring gas supplies "at least for the winter" had been reached after a final one-on-one meeting with Ukraine's Petro Poroshenko, which followed talks attended by European leaders.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/17/us-ukraine-crisis-meeting-idUSKCN0I52YO20141017
halo , as per usual andrew is not interested in any balance
his outpourings only follow RT ,
SX
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So was Putin lying too?
The only words that you quoted were: "at least for the winter." You'll have to do better than that.
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http://www.mail.com/int/news/us/3166460-berlin-wall-kerry-warns-cold-war-redux.html#.1258-stage-hero1-14
NS1,
Perhaps you haven't gotten the word: Kerry is a disgrace who isn't fit to serve in public office. It would be inadequate to call him a coward, a liar and a fool.
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http://www.mail.com/int/news/us/3166460-berlin-wall-kerry-warns-cold-war-redux.html#.1258-stage-hero1-14
NS1,
Perhaps you haven't gotten the word: Kerry is a disgrace who isn't fit to serve in public office. It would be inadequate to call him a coward, a liar and a fool.
Why I posted without comment.
Take from it what you will.
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And someone claims to know Russian :chuckle:
Russian President, Vladimir Putin (In Russian): “We’ve agreed the terms on which Russia will resume natural gas deliveries to Ukraine, at least during winter. We’ve agreed all the parameters of this agreement. The problem is, Naftogaz has a cash deficit. It’s nothing personal. We, Russia, can’t take any more risk. As you know, at the end of last year we gave Ukraine a $3 billion loan. Besides, our estimate is that Ukraine owes Russia $4.5 billion for previous deliveries. This is why Gazprom requires advance payment now. These are contractual obligations that can’t be changed. We understand Ukraine’s financial difficulties; we realize that Ukraine is facing problems; we are aware of the cash deficit. Besides, we’ve made a few concessions on the terms of payment for previous deliveries. So, we think that our European partners, the European Commission, can and should shoulder some of Ukraine’s burden and help it resolve this issue of the cash deficit.”
And what, did Europe agree to sponsor this pseudo-state? No money - no gas.
Doctors never tell the fatal diagnosis to the patient forthrightly.
http://sharij.net/4090 <<< pity, it's in Russian.
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
Millaa I think you'll find fascism everywhere in the FSU. In Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, the 'stans, in fact it's probably evident even those countries now in the EU, albeit much less pronounced.
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
Millaa I think you'll find fascism everywhere in the FSU. In Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, the 'stans, in fact it's probably evident even those countries now in the EU, albeit much less pronounced.
I saw you even did not open my link (it is not Wikipedia and written in Russian, too hard to understand, but looks like very easy to discuss :king:). The question: do they officially support fascism in Russia or Belarus on state level?
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
Millaa I think you'll find fascism everywhere in the FSU. In Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, the 'stans, in fact it's probably evident even those countries now in the EU, albeit much less pronounced.
I saw you even did not open my link (it is not Wikipedia and written in Russian, too hard to understand, but looks like very easy to discuss :king:). The question: do they officially support fascism in Russia or Belarus on state level?
How would you know if the Russian government supports fascism? You speak Russian but do you know what the Russian government does in secret? Somehow I doubt it.
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
Millaa I think you'll find fascism everywhere in the FSU. In Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, the 'stans, in fact it's probably evident even those countries now in the EU, albeit much less pronounced.
I saw you even did not open my link (it is not Wikipedia and written in Russian, too hard to understand, but looks like very easy to discuss :king:). The question: do they officially support fascism in Russia or Belarus on state level?
How would you know if the Russian government supports fascism? You speak Russian but do you know what the Russian government does in secret? Somehow I doubt it.
Ну слов нет. ;D Вроде бы взрослый дяденька, а такую чушь несет.
Please, switch on your brain and google translator to read my link first. I bet the Russian government don't create monuments and held on fascists marches in secret.
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
Millaa I think you'll find fascism everywhere in the FSU. In Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, the 'stans, in fact it's probably evident even those countries now in the EU, albeit much less pronounced.
I saw you even did not open my link (it is not Wikipedia and written in Russian, too hard to understand, but looks like very easy to discuss :king:). The question: do they officially support fascism in Russia or Belarus on state level?
How would you know if the Russian government supports fascism? You speak Russian but do you know what the Russian government does in secret? Somehow I doubt it.
Ну слов нет. ;D Вроде бы взрослый дяденька, а такую чушь несет.
Please, switch on your brain and google translator to read my link first. I bet the Russian government don't create monuments and held on fascists marches in secret.
I tried Google translate. The article still wasn't intelligible. It's well known that the Russian government is one of the most corrupt in Europe, as is the Ukrainian government. If supporting fascist causes works the Russian government would do it.
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And someone claims to know Russian :chuckle:
Russian President, Vladimir Putin (In Russian): “We’ve agreed the terms on which Russia will resume natural gas deliveries to Ukraine, at least during winter. We’ve agreed all the parameters of this agreement. The problem is, Naftogaz has a cash deficit. It’s nothing personal. We, Russia, can’t take any more risk. As you know, at the end of last year we gave Ukraine a $3 billion loan. Besides, our estimate is that Ukraine owes Russia $4.5 billion for previous deliveries. This is why Gazprom requires advance payment now. These are contractual obligations that can’t be changed. We understand Ukraine’s financial difficulties; we realize that Ukraine is facing problems; we are aware of the cash deficit. Besides, we’ve made a few concessions on the terms of payment for previous deliveries. So, we think that our European partners, the European Commission, can and should shoulder some of Ukraine’s burden and help it resolve this issue of the cash deficit.”
And what, did Europe agree to sponsor this pseudo-state? No money - no gas.
Doctors never tell the fatal diagnosis to the patient forthrightly.
http://sharij.net/4090 <<< pity, it's in Russian.
All of which supports my point. They have come to the the terms of an agreement.
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For halo, who claims no fascism on ukraine.
http://maxpark.com/community/631/content/3026567
I have never claimed there is no fascism in Ukraine. As Westy points out, there is fascism everywhere. I have posted that the current Ukrainian government is not fascist. Poroshenko is not a fascist. The ruling party of the Verkhovna Rada (Batkivshchyna) is not fascist.
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I tried Google translate. The article still wasn't intelligible. It's well known that the Russian government is one of the most corrupt in Europe, as is the Ukrainian government. If supporting fascist causes works the Russian government would do it.
Try then to translate the typical Ruddian answer to such "proofs" like you used to provide - Если бы да кабы, то во рту росли б грибы, тогда бы был не рот, а целый огород", ....well or suсh variant Если бы у бабушки были бы яйца, она была бы дедушкой
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All of which supports my point. They have come to the the terms of an agreement.
Agreeing to terms means nothing if one side has no intention of fulfilling the terms of the contract and I don't believe that Ukraine has any intention of paying for past gas deliveries, not at $485, not at $385, not at $268 and not at any price. They have every intention of getting someone else to pay for it whilst they steal as much as they can.
My original point was that one can't take the word of liars and thieves. Your only answer was asking if Putin was a liar also but you disregarded that Gazprom kept delivering their product, even when Ukraine was in arrears with their payments. Gazprom made the gamble that the profitability of transit gas would offset the amount that Ukraine stole but they underestimated Ukraine's thievery. Under the circumstances, there is nothing to be done but to terminate all gas flow to Ukraine and build more pipelines elsewhere.
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No, my point was that Putin did not say anything different than did Poroshenko. So how can one be a liar and not the other?
Incidentally, you can't blame the current administration for Ukraine's default. That lies with the Yanukovych/Party of Regions regime. Had Ukraine signed the Customs Union agreement, a significant part of that debt would have disappeared.
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No, my point was that Putin did not say anything different than did Poroshenko. So how can one be a liar and not the other?
You are moving the goalposts.
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
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The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which monitors Ukraine’s military conflict zone, said there is no evidence that government troops used cluster bombs, contradicting a Human Rights Watch report.
“We have not seen so far any evidence of cluster bombs,” Michael Bociurkiw, the OSCE’s spokesman, said by phone. “We have around 100 monitors, they are covering a very wide territory. If we see something, we will report it but all of our reporting is based on verified facts.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-22/no-evidence-of-cluster-munition-use-in-ukraine-osce-says.html
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
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Why do I get the distinct feeling it is going to be a very cold winter in Ukraine and much of EU without much Rooskie NatGaz...
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
So how is this changing the point? Either they are both liars, or they are both telling the truth.
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No, my point was that Putin did not say anything different than did Poroshenko. So how can one be a liar and not the other?
Мадам, не смешите мои тапки. Один бодро раппортует "Мы договорились", а другой - "Халявы не будет". Это называется одно и тоже? ;D
Однозначно, с русским у вас баааальшой напряг.
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Wrong, Millaa. Poroshenko stated they agreed to the terms. Putin stated they agreed to the terms, but Gazprom expected to be paid. They are saying, essentially, the same thing, whether in Russian, Ukrainian, or English.
Incidentally, the youtube link I posted had a full translation of what Putin stated (the one you pulled and presented as your own translation). I quibble a bit with the translation, but even had I not understood a word, the link stood on its own.
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Speaking of liars -
There are no active Russian servicemen in Ukraine – or so the Kremlin has been insisting for months.
Yet a recent encounter in the only functioning restaurant in war-torn Lugansk belied that claim. As the sounds of Celine Dion wafted from the sound system of the Weeping Willow café on a recent evening, half a dozen Russian soldiers sat down to a vodka-soaked dinner.
The men, dressed in the latest Russian army uniform, fanned out across two tables. As the 1994 ballad “Love Is All Around” came on the stereo, one comrade turned to another and asked if he had, by chance, seen the film Love Actually? You know, he added, the one with Keira Knightley.
Soon they invited two western journalists to join their table. One member of the group said he and the others had been in Lugansk for the past month, meaning that they arrived after the ceasefire the rebels signed with Kiev on September 5.
The men’s goal was “training the local population”, said the soldier, a native of Russia’s Voronezh region named Maxim. Asked if he and the others had come as volunteers, he replied sarcastically: “Sure, we’re volunteers. Nobody sent us here.” He continued on a more serious note. “They gave us an order: who wants to go volunteer? And we put our hands up like this,” he said, mocking someone being forced to put their hand up.
The involvement of Russian soldiers in eastern Ukraine has been one of the most incendiary elements of a conflict that has so far killed more than 3,700 people.
Western governments believe Russian troops and heavy weaponry were instrumental in reversing a campaign by Ukrainian troops to pacify two eastern provinces over-run by pro-Moscow separatists. The provinces, Lugansk and Donetsk, are now under rebel control as a result of that tenuous ceasefire.
Moscow insists that any Russian citizens fighting on the side of the separatists are “volunteers” and that any soldiers who have mysteriously ended up on Ukrainian territory had gone there on their holidays, while taking a sabbatical from their military service.
But evidence on the ground has suggested otherwise. In early September Nato alleged that 3,000 active Russian soldiers were on the ground in east Ukraine, while Kiev put the figure at as high as 10,000.
In September, a commission on military affairs on Russia’s presidential human rights council alleged that 100 soldiers from the 18th Motorised Rifle Brigade of military unit 27777 had died in action in east Ukraine, according to a report by Reuters.
In August, Kiev posted video interviews of 10 men it had captured in east Ukraine who admitted to being Russian paratroopers, while attention has also focused on the paratroopers from Russia’s Pskov Airborne Division – at least two of whom died on August 20, just a day before the Ukrainian military claimed it had captured two armoured vehicles from the Pskov division.
Fighters from Russia’s restive Chechnya and North Ossetia regions have been playing a visible role on the ground in Donetsk since May, when they first began talking to reporters, including from the Financial Times. . .
At the Weeping Willow, whose interior is a homage to the 1968 Soviet caper film The Diamond Arm , with glass display cases featuring fake props from the movie and stills from the film adorning the walls – four of Maxim’s companions soon joined the discussion: Slava, a man the others referred to as their officer and who was wearing a uniform with official Russian armed forces and Russian flag insignia; Salovat, whom the other men referred to as “the Tatar” because of his ethnicity; Kirill, a lanky twenty-something with dark hair and a scar across his cheek; and a fourth whose ethnicity suggested he was from Russia’s Caucasus.
The last – and most sober – member of the group, a man named Stanislav, headed for the exit after learning that he was in the company of reporters.
The men looked quite different to the local rebel forces. The insurgents who have been fighting Ukraine’s army tend to sport a motley collection of green camouflage outfits, often acquired from hunting and fishing shops or thrift stores. They also tend to carry pistols and Kalashnikovs with them wherever they go, even inside public buildings. The six men at the Weeping Willow were quite different. All were dressed identically in the latest official Russian armed forces green camouflage uniform, a design that was unveiled only in December 2012. None of them was armed.
They said that they had been coming to the café since they arrived a month earlier. Then Lugansk, which has borne the brunt of the summer fighting, was still without electricity, as it had been for most of the summer, and the men were forced to sip their beers in the dark.
They said they had been conducting their training every day, including weekends, though they did not elaborate on what sort of training they were engaged in.
While the fighting has left the city centre, Lugansk remains under a strict 8pm curfew. Shortly before the appointed hour, the men settled their bill and stumbled out the door, Slava the officer carrying a bottle of the Weeping Willow’s own vodka brand under his arm.
“A million men will die for your eyes!” Salovat shouted to a reporter. And with that the party was over.
Full article here -
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/76bac354-59c2-11e4-9787-00144feab7de.html#axzz3Gz1lXhVa
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say? Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. (http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS)
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Wrong, Millaa. Poroshenko stated they agreed to the terms. Putin stated they agreed to the terms, but Gazprom expected to be paid. They are saying, essentially, the same thing, whether in Russian, Ukrainian, or English.
Incidentally, the youtube link I posted had a full translation of what Putin stated (the one you pulled and presented as your own translation). I quibble a bit with the translation, but even had I not understood a word, the link stood on its own.
Мадам, вы кавычки видели? Так это у вас не только с языком проблемы, но и с пониманием прочитанного.
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More liars exposed -
Eastern Ukrainian separatists are receiving dozens of tanks and Russian-trained fighters, one of the rebel leaders has said, suggesting that Moscow continues to defy international pressure to end its backing for the four-month conflict.
Alexander Zakharchenko, who took over a week ago as prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic, told members of his government that rebel forces had reopened a corridor to the Russian Federation allowing fresh inflows of arms and fighters.
“At present, moving along the path of this corridor . . . there are 150 items of combat hardware, 30 of which are tanks,” a YouTube video released on Saturday showed him as saying. Also en route were “1,200 individuals who underwent four months of training in the Russian Federation,” he said.
Though the revelation could not be independently confirmed, it comes one day after Kiev claimed to have used artillery to destroy Russian combat vehicles illegally entering its territory.
Denied by Russia, the incident allegedly occurred at a border crossing near the other rebel-held provincial capital, Lugansk, close to where a Russian convoy of nearly 270 trucks carrying humanitarian aid was parked awaiting Ukrainian customs clearance.
In Kamensk-Shakhtinsky, where more than 360 Russian aid trucks have been parked since Thursday, the Red Cross and Ukrainian and Russian representatives continued their negotiations over how the Russian aid convoy would be allowed into Ukrainian territory.
Six representatives for OMON, a Russian special police force, stood guard over the convoy camp on Saturday, refusing to let press access the site.
News organisations including the Financial Times have spotted numerous armed military vehicles on the main highway leading to the Russian town of Donetsk which borders Ukraine. Some of the vehicles have borne the red initials “MS” – the Russian symbol for peacekeeping forces.
On Saturday, there appeared to be fewer armoured personnel carriers and military vehicles driving on the roads than in previous days.
Mr Zakharchenko’s confirmation that Russia continues to give military backing to his separatist movement upholds Kiev’s claim that its northern neighbour – which annexed Crimea earlier this year – is waging a “hybrid war” by orchestrating the separatist rebellion then providing arms and rebels for its fighting force.
Backing claims by their government, Ukrainian soldiers have in past weeks claimed to be routinely engaging undercover Russian soldiers alongside the rebels, while also being shelled from Russian territory.
In Donetsk this week, a rebel spokesman admitted Russians accounted for a significant part of rebel ranks. He said they were “fighting for Russia” against the west in a “civilisation war.”
The prospect of fresh inflows of arms and fighters could make things more difficult for Ukraine’s advancing army, which claimed in past weeks to have made significant gains towards encircling the militant strongholds of Donetsk and Lugansk.
Pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine have escalated the political turmoil that threatens to tear the country apart
Mr Zakharchenko, a native of Donetsk region, rose to prominence last week after replacing Muscovite Alexander Borodai, who has close ties to Kremlin insiders. His rise to power preceded this week’s unexpected removal of former Russian intelligence officer Igor Girkin, better known as Strelkov or Shooter in Russian, as the group’s military commander.
The leadership shake-up appears to be a bid to conceal links to Russian involvement. But mounting evidence that Moscow continues to funnel arms and fighters to the separatist uprising is nonetheless likely to raise further international alarm, deepening the Kremlin’s stand-off with the west.
The US and EU have repeatedly warned Moscow that it faces additional economic sanctions should it fail to take measures to calm tensions in the most serious east-west stand-off since the cold war.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/10867312-2560-11e4-af2c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Gz1lXhVa
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Wrong, Millaa. Poroshenko stated they agreed to the terms. Putin stated they agreed to the terms, but Gazprom expected to be paid. They are saying, essentially, the same thing, whether in Russian, Ukrainian, or English.
Incidentally, the youtube link I posted had a full translation of what Putin stated (the one you pulled and presented as your own translation). I quibble a bit with the translation, but even had I not understood a word, the link stood on its own.
Мадам, вы кавычки видели? Так это у вас не только с языком проблемы, но и с пониманием прочитанного.
No, it is you who has the problem. Go back to the youtube link. End of discussion.
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say? Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. (http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS)
The corruption (as fascism) exists everywhere. ;D
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More evidence of Russian honesty- the Ukrainian Banderivtsi, rather than a drunken Russian driver, may be responsible for Mr. de Margerie's death.
http://www.kp.ru/daily/26297/3175992/
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And someone claims to know Russian :chuckle:
Russian President, Vladimir Putin (In Russian): “We’ve agreed the terms on which Russia will resume natural gas deliveries to Ukraine, at least during winter. We’ve agreed all the parameters of this agreement. The problem is, Naftogaz has a cash deficit. It’s nothing personal. We, Russia, can’t take any more risk. As you know, at the end of last year we gave Ukraine a $3 billion loan. Besides, our estimate is that Ukraine owes Russia $4.5 billion for previous deliveries. This is why Gazprom requires advance payment now. These are contractual obligations that can’t be changed. We understand Ukraine’s financial difficulties; we realize that Ukraine is facing problems; we are aware of the cash deficit. Besides, we’ve made a few concessions on the terms of payment for previous deliveries. So, we think that our European partners, the European Commission, can and should shoulder some of Ukraine’s burden and help it resolve this issue of the cash deficit.”
And what, did Europe agree to sponsor this pseudo-state? No money - no gas.
Doctors never tell the fatal diagnosis to the patient forthrightly.
http://sharij.net/4090 <<< pity, it's in Russian.
А попадать впросак мы ох как не любим :chuckle:. The end of discussion.
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Thank you for reinforcing my point.
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Remember the days when we all got along, the FSU was a peaceful place full of beauty's that we wanted. Where there was only a slight bias shown on here, that Russian citizens viewed themselves as above all the other CIS? Where the innocence of Ukraine's youth was everywhere, and for the most part they had otomsium of the future, now they just want peace.
Through his actions, Putin has severed this forum, and the politics have spewed hot and heavy like lava from a vent. Anyway, continue on.
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Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Ага, очки надень.
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Remember the days when we all got along, the FSU was a peaceful place full of beauty's that we wanted. Where there was only a slight bias shown on here, that Russian citizens viewed themselves as above all the other CIS? Where the innocence of Ukraine's youth was everywhere, and for the most part they had otomsium of the future, now they just want peace.
Through his actions, Putin has severed this forum, and the politics have spewed hot and heavy like lava from a vent. Anyway, continue on.
Blame yourself for spreading russophobia first.
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say? Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. (http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS)
Canada is one of the three most corrupt countries in North America. This has as much meaning as your statement.
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Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Ага, очки надень.
My vision is fine, thank you.
Perhaps you should improve your less than perfect English.
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Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Ага, очки надень.
My vision is fine, thank you.
Perhaps you should improve your less than perfect English.
О, да. Я когда-нибудь утверждала, что он у меня даже fluent? ;D
Оторвитесь от форума, рабочее время ведь, клиенты, поди, ждут.
Or u are working the same way as in usa? Morning office, doors are closed, boss somewhere else, nobody here. ;D
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I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
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I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
tiphat Touche!
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I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
Housewife? ;D
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say? Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. (http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS)
Canada is one of the three most corrupt countries in North America. This has as much meaning as your statement.
Canada is the least corrupt country in North America. Of course there are only 3 countries in North America so context does matter. Whereas in Europe there are 50+ countries. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population) 3 vs 50 big difference.
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http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-pm-warns-russia-may-try-destabilize-sundays-110417888.html
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-interview-russias-navalny-vows-fight-putin-130030488.html
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2014/10/02/Ruble-s-Nosedive-Shows-Power-Russian-Sanctions
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I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
tiphat Touche!
Thank you.
I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
Housewife? ;D
Somedays, I wish that were so. ;D
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I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
Neither do I.
My hubby says that I have a spirit of the pioneers.
I do not know how it happened to me being Russian.
Now I need your patience and control over my emotions when I deal with конченными идиотками like Millaa.
I have not seen many of them even in Russia. :laugh:
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say? Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. (http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS)
Canada is one of the three most corrupt countries in North America. This has as much meaning as your statement.
Canada is the least corrupt country in North America. Of course there are only 3 countries in North America so context does matter. Whereas in Europe there are 50+ countries. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population) 3 vs 50 big difference.
population wise how many of the 50 does it take to equal 1 Russia? Lets just say that Russia is 143M and Europe (less Russia) is 568M. so about a factor of 5? so on a population bases Russia is the 5th most corrupt. and the funny part is Ukraine is worse!
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Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say?
Please don't interpret my failure to answer your asinine rhetorical question as an admission of defeat. Your confusion and your inability to understand simple statements is no less annoying than someone who understands perfectly well but chooses to employ dishonest argument.
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I don't have a boss, other than me. ;D
Neither do I.
My hubby says that I have a spirit of the pioneers.
I do not know how it happened to me being Russian.
Now I need your patience and control over my emotions when I deal with конченными идиотками like Millaa.
I have not seen many of them even in Russia. :laugh:
:bow:
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No I'm not.
Your point was that what Poroshenko stated about agreeing to terms was a lie. It wasn't. Putin stated essentially the same thing. The parties have agreed to the terms for the supply of gas.
Now, you are changing my point even more.
I wrote: "When will the West finally realize that you can't take the word of liars and thieves?"
Tom if you truly believe what you wrote then why would you believe anything the Russian government has to say? Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. (http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS)
Canada is one of the three most corrupt countries in North America. This has as much meaning as your statement.
Canada is the least corrupt country in North America. Of course there are only 3 countries in North America so context does matter. Whereas in Europe there are 50+ countries. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population) 3 vs 50 big difference.
population wise how many of the 50 does it take to equal 1 Russia? Lets just say that Russia is 143M and Europe (less Russia) is 568M. so about a factor of 5? so on a population bases Russia is the 5th most corrupt. and the funny part is Ukraine is worse!
Never heard of any connection between corruption and the population of a country. If you have a link to relevant research on the subject please post a link. I'd like to read the research.
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George Soros is urging Europe to save Ukraine. Soros wants Europe to make an immediate $20 billion (16 billion euros) cash injection to the struggling country. I wonder how much of the $20 billion would actually reach its intended targets and how much would end up in the pockets of the politicians and oligarchs?
http://news.yahoo.com/billionaire-soros-urges-europe-wake-save-ukraine-195337970.html
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Реально плохо мне от особы, страдающей комплексом неполноценности, явно не будет.
Enjoy posting any nonsense about me, you are welcome
Any connection with Ukrainian events? :ROFL:
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Any connection with Ukrainian events?
My post is connected to Ukrainian events.
Earlier, I didn't understand why Putin didn't invade en masse. Now, I understand: he doesn't have to because he has won without a costly full-scale invasion. Ukraine will collapse under the weight of its leaders' stupidity, incompetence and corruption. It is unlikely that there will be any gas this winter because the funds that haven't been embezzled have been squandered on a ruinous and ill-advised punitive campaign. Without a massive infusion of external funding, the country will have no guns, no butter and no heat. Worse yet, propping them up financially will only serve to enable further stupidity, incompetence and corruption.
Unless the masses come to their senses and stop electing oligarchs and mad men, they are better off under foreign rule. The open question is whether or not any country wants to rule them.
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How much is the Internet Research Agency paying you for this?
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You should get your loved ones the hell out of there instead of contributing to the problem by financially supporting the war. If you encourage your in-laws to fight, you are sending them to their graves.
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There'll be dead Russians at the door step to clean away afterwards. No big deal they'll be good worm food.
So are they paying you good wages?
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Any connection with Ukrainian events?
My post is connected to Ukrainian events.
You are a real gentleman, Mr. TomT. :)
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How much is the Internet Research Agency paying you for this?
You will not believe I'm crying! You want to know what currency? :chuckle:
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You will not believe I'm crying!
You're right! :)
Since you're Russian, I don't believe it..
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You're such a pleasant person Milla! That suburb you hate living in, in that state you hate living in, and in that country you love to hate, sure has benefited by your presence. Instead of moving to Russia's faux enemy the US, you should of found a Euro guy who loves Putin and Russia's BS on worldly things.
Isn't America's thanksgiving approaching? Now don't burn the bird. :)
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You're such a pleasant person Milla! That suburb you hate living in, in that state you hate living in, and in that country you love to hate, sure has benefited by your presence. Instead of moving to Russia's faux enemy the US, you should of found a Euro guy who loves Putin and Russia's BS on worldly things.
Isn't America's thanksgiving approaching? Now don't burn the bird. :)
I never met such a bunch of inadequate characters in one place before.
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I never met such a bunch of inadequate characters in one place before.
When you get to know them better, you will realize that their apparent inadequacy was only the tip of the iceberg.
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Mod Comment
posting removed inflammatory one off post
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I never met such a bunch of inadequate characters in one place before.
When you get to know them better, you will realize that their apparent inadequacy was only the tip of the iceberg.
How many here, do you know well?
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I never met such a bunch of inadequate characters in one place before.
When you get to know them better, you will realize that their apparent inadequacy was only the tip of the iceberg.
How many here, do you know well?
Easy to determine >>> they will comment me here (7 in last 3 pages and it is just the beginning) ;D
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I never met such a bunch of inadequate characters in one place before.
When you get to know them better, you will realize that their apparent inadequacy was only the tip of the iceberg.
How many here, do you know well?
Easy to determine >>> they will comment me here (7 in last 3 pages and it is just the beginning) ;D
Seems you get what you ask for, why so surprised.
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Any connection with Ukrainian events?
My post is connected to Ukrainian events.
Earlier, I didn't understand why Putin didn't invade en masse. Now, I understand: he doesn't have to because he has won without a costly full-scale invasion. Ukraine will collapse under the weight of its leaders' stupidity, incompetence and corruption. It is unlikely that there will be any gas this winter because the funds that haven't been embezzled have been squandered on a ruinous and ill-advised punitive campaign. Without a massive infusion of external funding, the country will have no guns, no butter and no heat. Worse yet, propping them up financially will only serve to enable further stupidity, incompetence and corruption.
Unless the masses come to their senses and stop electing oligarchs and mad men, they are better off under foreign rule. The open question is whether or not any country wants to rule them.
Also the same could be said of whom the masses elect here, for the most part.
Worthy candidates are scarce most anywhere, so short of revolt, which seems clearly frowned upon ,
viable options seem limited for the populace of most countries.
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AJ, your somewhat cynical view of politics suggests that politicians tend to not be good their job and equally poor in Ukraine or US. That's not a helpful understanding.
The US body politic has its faults and, I think that one can see them as being manifestations of a class of people and organizations that are essentially parasites upon the majority of USAians.
Ukraine is a very different case. Usually a parasite does not kill the host upon which it depends. The current power in Ukraine is more akin to a virulent infection that will kill the host and with the aid of external forces may infect other healthy hosts.
Both are a threat to the good health of those around them. Although in this case the parasite is MUCH more of a threat to the world than the infection. Which is where the analogy breaks down.
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Also the same could be said of whom the masses elect here, for the most part.
The system of corruption in the United States is very different from the one in Ukraine where politicians dip directly into public funds that are desperately needed. Here, the money is in ties to agricultural, defense and banking corporations that have deep pockets and can well afford to pay handsomely for favorable treatment.
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Conflict With Russia Reaches Ukrainian Stores
The standoff between Kiev and Moscow has reached food stores in the Ukrainian capital, where Russian-imported goods are soon to be marked with special labels.
The Kiev city legislature has approved legislation ordering stores to enforce the new measure, which its initiator, lawmaker Ruslan Andriyko, says aims at warning consumers against supporting the "aggressor" by purchasing Russian products.
"Every kopek sent to Russia," Andriyko told RFE/RL, "is spent by [Russian President Vladimir] Putin on weapons that kill our soldiers."
Under the new rules, Russian-made goods will also have to be displayed on separate shelves.
Andriyko says supermarket and store owners overwhelmingly back the measure, which he pledges will not hurt Ukraine's economy.
"Enacting this decision won't put any burden on the budget, it won't result in any losses for sellers," he says. "Technically, it can be done in one day, just by marking products made on Russian territory with a little flag or a similar sign."
Stores will be given a month to introduce the changes.
After this "adaptation" period, checks will be conducted to make sure retailers are complying.
Stores caught flaunting the new rules will not be fined but, according to Andriyko, city authorities will "strongly insist" on the need to follow the new recommendations.
"I'm sure this measure will be implemented without any coercion," he said.
The idea, in fact, is not new.
Similar steps have been taken by local administrations in Lvov, Ivano Frankivsk, and Cherkasy.
'Down With The Russian Occupiers'
Many shops in these three Ukrainian cities are already using various markings -- some simple hand-made labels saying "Russia," others more elaborate printouts featuring a Russian flag -- to identify Russian products, which range from yogurts to chewing gum, chocolate bars, or children's diapers.
In Lvov, volunteer brigades have also been deployed to enforce the move.
Activists from the Economic Boycott Movement, among others, routinely inspect stores to chastise reluctant shop owners and inform consumers about the alleged danger of buying Russian products.
Some shops use more elaborate printouts featuring a Russian flag to identify products that have been imported from Ukraine's eastern neighbor.
Some shops use more elaborate printouts featuring a Russian flag to identify products that have been imported from Ukraine's eastern neighbor.
Some Ukrainians, like social psychologist Viktor Pushkar, have voiced unease about the new rules and warned against the pitfalls of propaganda.
"We already have this experience from the end of the 1980s and the beginning of the 1990s, when propaganda was conducted by unprofessional people," he cautions. "In my opinion, instead of fostering pro-Ukrainian feelings they discredited the notion of nationalism."
But so far, the initiative has encountered no real public resistance.
"Most products don't have Russian barcodes, and people are not in the habit of reading these small numbers on the packages anyway," says Yekaterina Chapura, an activist in Kiev. "So it would be very useful if products were marked."
In addition to the marking of Russian-made goods, the new ruling also recommends that media outlets create a new column titled "Down with the Russian Occupiers," and that Ukrainian television and radio broadcast patriotic songs.
It also calls on schools to introduce new lessons on "the aggression against Ukraine, a manifestation of fascism and chauvinism."
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-russian-products-markings-stores/26639249.html
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This whole article reads like giant hate/war mongering to me.
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This whole article reads like giant hate/war mongering to me.
Well it is Mikeys one off attempt to become the forums pro Ukrainian News reporter.. to brainwash us all they same way as there government is brainwashing its citizens
Hey Mike are you post this much on RMP these days? just asking
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Putin Admits Helping Yanukovych Flee
Russian President Vladimir Putin has admitted publicly for the first time that Russia helped Viktor Yanukovych flee Ukraine after he was ousted as president of that country in February.
Speaking at an international business forum in Sochi on October 24, Putin said Russia first aided Yanukovych in getting to Crimea, which in February had still not been illegally annexed by Russia.
Putin said Yanukovych then asked the Kremlin to let him and his family to travel to Russia, and, Putin said, "we did that."
According to AFP, Ukrainian officials believe Putin has issued a secret decree granting Russian citizenship to Yanukovych, his family, and members of his inner circle.
Moscow has not publicly responded to that allegation.
http://www.rferl.org/content/putin-yanukovych-ukraine-russia-flee/26654834.html
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This whole article reads like giant hate/war mongering to me.
For some silly reason Ukraine doesn't like being invaded..
Go Figure! :laugh:
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Putin Admits Helping Yanukovych Flee
Russian President Vladimir Putin has admitted publicly for the first time that Russia helped Viktor Yanukovych flee Ukraine after he was ousted as president of that country in February.
Speaking at an international business forum in Sochi on October 24, Putin said Russia first aided Yanukovych in getting to Crimea, which in February had still not been illegally annexed by Russia.
Putin said Yanukovych then asked the Kremlin to let him and his family to travel to Russia, and, Putin said, "we did that."
According to AFP, Ukrainian officials believe Putin has issued a secret decree granting Russian citizenship to Yanukovych, his family, and members of his inner circle.
Moscow has not publicly responded to that allegation.
http://www.rferl.org/content/putin-yanukovych-ukraine-russia-flee/26654834.html
Wow what a surprise and there was me thinking it was a Ukrainian official that helped him escape
No big news there really
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This whole article reads like giant hate/war mongering to me.
For some silly reason Ukraine doesn't like being invaded..
Go Figure! :laugh:
For all their posturing and sactions, apparently the world leaders do not think they are invaded. Otherwise the no-nuke deal would force the world to help ukraine.
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Better re read that "no nuke deal".
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Better re read that "no nuke deal".
Don't need to, I think the governments of the world would come to their aid if they really thought they could take on putin and his bunch. Problem is, they still can't prove putin is lying about the seperatists. It could still very well be army generals acting on their own, men vacationing (with tanks) or simply being lost driving a wrong turn (again with their tanks).
I am no Putin-fanboy but from my personal experience, he is right and always has been. The sooner the world realises that, the sooner Ukraine will be free from this puppet government, the better everyone will be off.
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Btw, the wife says all of them putin, poroshenko, turchinov, azakov and yatsenyuk should be taken out back and talked some sense in to them because they are all acting against the best interest of their country, people and morale.
The only one she has respect for is Yanukovich, which is strange because she is as pro-russian as they come. You'd think that Putin would also apply.
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So lets have a step back and look at what the rest of the world is doing to help this situation in Ukraine (obviously not including Russia)
So where is the west what are they doing to help Ukraine? or have they worked out that there is nothing they can do to help?
Where is Poland, Romania, Belarus(although we know they wont want to be involved) Slovakia and Hungary, Moldova well that a bit to small so what are they doing to help their neighbour
Come on Poland is not big Buddies with Russia are they so you would think they would be in there too
So it all comes down to no one in the immediate west of Ukraine wants to get involved i wonder why? surely they all cant believe if they get involved Russia will (invade) them no of course not.. its because it is seen that Ukraine has made this mess now its time for them to sort out their own crap
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This whole article reads like giant hate/war mongering to me.
Well it is Mikeys one off attempt to become the forums pro Ukrainian News reporter.. to brainwash us all they same way as there government is brainwashing its citizens
Of course, the brainwashing is only happening in Kiev. (:)
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One has to remember here, that to the pro Russian group here,
Whatever Putin speaks is gospel. In their minds the greatest leader
in the world. He never lies, it is all 100% :chuckle:
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One has to remember here, that to the pro Russian group here,
Whatever Putin speaks is gospel. In their minds the greatest leader
in the world. He never lies, it is all 100% :chuckle:
If this is what you're getting out of all the dialog then your reading comprehension is worse than your written English; which speaks for itself.
I think most of the so-called "Putin" crowd have been doing their best to point out the hypocrisy coming from the West. I seriously doubt anyone thinks that Russia or its representatives are lily white puritans whom never tell a lie and always play by the rules.
When one has been lied to and shown that trust can not be had, it's hard to not do or act the same. This is especially true given the history of all involved.
I believe that the current Russian government is convinced that it needs to maintain its influence in Ukraine in order to maintain its stability domestically. Does that mean total control? No, absolutely not. But the problem lies IMO, in the West's continual refusal to understand this, and worse yet, completely ignore it by flatly refusing to listen to what are real concerns coming from Moscow.
So sorry, we who you think are such big supporters of Putin don't think he's the king of kings. We're just not fooled by the "American good, Russia bad" BS, or that the West is just some innocent bystander that somehow got caught up in this unfortunate mess known as Ukraine.
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I am no Putin-fanboy but from my personal experience, he is right and always has been. The sooner the world realises that, the sooner Ukraine will be free from this puppet government, the better everyone will be off.
This.
So lets have a step back and look at what the rest of the world is doing to help this situation in Ukraine (obviously not including Russia)
So where is the west what are they doing to help Ukraine? or have they worked out that there is nothing they can do to help?
Where is Poland, Romania, Belarus(although we know they wont want to be involved) Slovakia and Hungary, Moldova well that a bit to small so what are they doing to help their neighbour
Come on Poland is not big Buddies with Russia are they so you would think they would be in there too
So it all comes down to no one in the immediate west of Ukraine wants to get involved i wonder why? surely they all cant believe if they get involved Russia will (invade) them no of course not.. its because it is seen that Ukraine has made this mess now its time for them to sort out their own crap
It is seen they let the Yanks/EU in to influence their country and make a complete balls of it. These countries won't want such a close association with America. Plus, they all need Russian gas too.
Invite America in to interfere and soon people start dying. As we see all over the world - not only in Ukraine. Eastern Europe doesn't need any more of that. Most of those countries have an alright relationship with Russia they don't want to fracture.
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Invite America in to interfere and soon people start dying. As we see all over the world - not only in Ukraine. Eastern Europe doesn't need any more of that. Most of those countries have an alright relationship with Russia they don't want to fracture.
Says a guy from a country with several generations of a similar track record...I mean it's not like the British crown has a history of colonizing all that often...right? .What did you forget Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Omon, Burma, etc..., etc.....
Don't let your ignorance of your own national history cloud your judgement of current events or anything.
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Invite America in to interfere and soon people start dying. As we see all over the world - not only in Ukraine. Eastern Europe doesn't need any more of that. Most of those countries have an alright relationship with Russia they don't want to fracture.
Says a guy from a country with several generations of a similar track record...I mean it's not like the British crown has a history of colonizing all that often...right? .What did you forget Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Omon, Burma, etc..., etc.....
Don't let your ignorance of your own national history cloud your judgement of current events or anything.
Let us not forget: Ireland needs to be taken back into the fold as well!
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Invite America in to interfere and soon people start dying. As we see all over the world - not only in Ukraine. Eastern Europe doesn't need any more of that. Most of those countries have an alright relationship with Russia they don't want to fracture.
Says a guy from a country with several generations of a similar track record...I mean it's not like the British crown has a history of colonizing all that often...right? .What did you forget Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Omon, Burma, etc..., etc.....
Don't let your ignorance of your own national history cloud your judgement of current events or anything.
The difference is, you people are still doing it all across the world. :coffeeread:
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Invite America in to interfere and soon people start dying. As we see all over the world - not only in Ukraine. Eastern Europe doesn't need any more of that. Most of those countries have an alright relationship with Russia they don't want to fracture.
Says a guy from a country with several generations of a similar track record...I mean it's not like the British crown has a history of colonizing all that often...right? .What did you forget Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Omon, Burma, etc..., etc.....
Don't let your ignorance of your own national history cloud your judgement of current events or anything.
The difference is, you people are still doing it all across the world. :coffeeread:
Are you attempting to rationalize that somehow that strengthens your own position in the debate?
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I never met such a bunch of inadequate characters in one place before.
When you get to know them better, you will realize that their apparent inadequacy was only the tip of the iceberg.
O-O! I hate to be disappointed.
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One has to remember here, that to the pro Russian group here,
Whatever Putin speaks is gospel. In their minds the greatest leader
in the world. He never lies, it is all 100% :chuckle:
If this is what you're getting out of all the dialog then your reading comprehension is worse than your written English; which speaks for itself.
I think most of the so-called "Putin" crowd have been doing their best to point out the hypocrisy coming from the West. I seriously doubt anyone thinks that Russia or its representatives are lily white puritans whom never tell a lie and always play by the rules.
When one has been lied to and shown that trust can not be had, it's hard to not do or act the same. This is especially true given the history of all involved.
I believe that the current Russian government is convinced that it needs to maintain its influence in Ukraine in order to maintain its stability domestically. Does that mean total control? No, absolutely not. But the problem lies IMO, in the West's continual refusal to understand this, and worse yet, completely ignore it by flatly refusing to listen to what are real concerns coming from Moscow.
So sorry, we who you think are such big supporters of Putin don't think he's the king of kings. We're just not fooled by the "American good, Russia bad" BS, or that the West is just some innocent bystander that somehow got caught up in this unfortunate mess known as Ukraine.
Read what Manny and Markje posted, along with most of your own, makes my point.
I have never denied bad written english, But I comprehend just fine thanks.
Reality is, most Pro Ukraine here, admit mistakes, faults and problems, by west, Ukraine and all involved.
But as stated above, you and most here "Putin is right & always has been"
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O-O! I hate to be disappointed.
You'll become accustomed to it. :)
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O-O! I hate to be disappointed.
You'll become accustomed to it. :)
Never. It is always pain.
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Are you attempting to rationalize that somehow that strengthens your own position in the debate?
Actually, it does strengthen his position. The United States has been meddling in eastern European affairs since the fifties, most notably by supporting the Hungarian Revolt and the Prague Spring, both of which ended badly for the participants. Of course, we learned nothing from this... or from our brief, tragic affair with Georgia.
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Are you attempting to rationalize that somehow that strengthens your own position in the debate?
Actually, it does strengthen his position. The United States has been meddling in eastern European affairs since the fifties, most notably by supporting the Hungarian Revolt and the Prague Spring, both of which ended badly for the participants. Of course, we learned nothing from this... or from our brief, tragic affair with Georgia.
It doesn't strengthen his position, the brits via their gvt., and intel services in conjunction with other european powers had parts in that as well.... Let's not encourage more ignorance based Euro-arrogance. There is already more than enough to go around.
His national history is filled with as much or even more rife with death, war, destruction, conflict, colonization, exploitation, etc.... than our own is.
I'm frankly surprised you're supporting the previously expressed 'ignorant' position here and it's attempt to draw a parallel to multiple logical fallacies wwhilst rationalizing that they somehow make that individual's op superinionsior in this debate.
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I suppose that the Brits insisted that we invade Iraq.
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I suppose that the Brits insisted that we invade Iraq.
Now you're attempting to bait and further deteriorate the debate with a straw man trolling tactic.
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Are you attempting to rationalize that somehow that strengthens your own position in the debate?
Actually, it does strengthen his position. The United States has been meddling in eastern European affairs since the fifties, most notably by supporting the Hungarian Revolt and the Prague Spring, both of which ended badly for the participants. Of course, we learned nothing from this... or from our brief, tragic affair with Georgia.
It doesn't strengthen his position, the brits via their gvt., and intel services in conjunction with other european powers had parts in that as well.... Let's not encourage more ignorance based Euro-arrogance. There is already more than enough to go around.
His national history is filled with as much or even more rife with death, war, destruction, conflict, colonization, exploitation, etc.... than our own is.
I'm frankly surprised you're supporting the previously expressed 'ignorant' position here and it's attempt to draw a parallel to multiple logical fallacies wwhilst rationalizing that they somehow make that individual's op superinionsior in this debate.
Eric please do not let your patriotism cloud you view, i know you strongly support the military side of your country and what you do you do well, but life has more colours and not all things stack the same way as is portrayed.
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Are you attempting to rationalize that somehow that strengthens your own position in the debate?
Actually, it does strengthen his position. The United States has been meddling in eastern European affairs since the fifties, most notably by supporting the Hungarian Revolt and the Prague Spring, both of which ended badly for the participants. Of course, we learned nothing from this... or from our brief, tragic affair with Georgia.
It doesn't strengthen his position, the brits via their gvt., and intel services in conjunction with other european powers had parts in that as well.... Let's not encourage more ignorance based Euro-arrogance. There is already more than enough to go around.
His national history is filled with as much or even more rife with death, war, destruction, conflict, colonization, exploitation, etc.... than our own is.
I'm frankly surprised you're supporting the previously expressed 'ignorant' position here and it's attempt to draw a parallel to multiple logical fallacies wwhilst rationalizing that they somehow make that individual's op superinionsior in this debate.
Eric please do not let your patriotism cloud you view, i know you strongly support the military side of your country and what you do you do well, but life has more colours and not all things stack the same way as is portrayed.
Sparky,
Patriotism has little to do with it. I frankly support neither side. The ignorance displayed was and is prima facie. The sad fact is the ignorance was being used as foundation platform to justify a view.
All sides in this ClusterF*** have done wrong. There is no 'correct' side to be in this 'mess' which is needless in it's entirety.
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I think most of the so-called "Putin" crowd have been doing their best to point out the hypocrisy coming from the West. I seriously doubt anyone thinks that Russia or its representatives are lily white puritans whom never tell a lie and always play by the rules.
Oh, there are plenty of posters her who believe Russia is playing by the rules, as you state, and is lily white.
I believe that the current Russian government is convinced that it needs to maintain its influence in Ukraine in order to maintain its stability domestically.
So should they not be looking at changing policies at home to avoid such a situation, rather than invading a sovereign nation and fomenting violence?
If Russia were a "grown up" nation, it would realize it could always maintain influence with Ukraine solely because of its geography. Think Canada and the U.S.
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I suppose that the Brits insisted that we invade Iraq.
Blair also lied to the British people about WOMD!
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Well we all knew you would chip in (:)
It's a forum, that's what people do. :-X
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Well we all knew you would chip in (:)
It's a forum, that's what people do. :-X
Some more than others :chuckle:
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The first problem is easier and quicker to fix than the second problem. Well, not too quick. :chuckle:
I was afraid to mention it of forum where majority of members are men. :chuckle:
But you have ability to read between lines, Larry.
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Please continue this discussion in a civilized fashion.
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Problem is, they still can't prove putin is lying about the seperatists. It could still very well be army generals acting on their own, men vacationing (with tanks) or simply being lost driving a wrong turn (again with their tanks).
Interesting you should mention that Mark. Canadian troops routinely sign out APC and tanks to go on hunting and fishing vacations. Nothing gets a herd of caribou up and running into the open, like hundreds to troops on vacation in their tanks. (:)
If the Russian soldier is making a wrong turn in his tank, then Putin's army is a the biggest gang of buffoons on this planet, and I suppose they may of thought they were shooting down a tiny kite a few months ago.
I am no Putin-fanboy but from my personal experience, he is right and always has been.
I think that makes you a member in his fan club.
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Please continue this discussion in a civilized fashion.
Civility begets civility. When foul comments emanate from members anal recesses then expect a fitting response.
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Please continue this discussion in a civilized fashion.
Civility begets civility. When foul comments emanate from members anal recesses then expect a fitting response.
No Dogsoldier I expect you to report the foul comment to moderator not to reply in kind.
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Back in realityland. There's little doubt that the Russian army has NOT been active in Ukraine.
If it had things would look very different on the ground.
For sure it would suit the junta and their masters in Washington to have real evidence of such activity and that is something that the Russian leadership is well aware of. If these words don't make much sense to you then there's some catching up to be done. ;)
The catchers up might want to ask themselves what motivation the Russians would have for invading, overcoming the broken Ukrainian forces and then not prosecuting a clear objective against that broken opponent. When you have sorted out that in a sensible manner, one that fits the facts in evidence, it will become clear that the Russian army has not been active in Ukraine.
When the junta restart their offensive up, in full, after the election there may come a great temptation for Russian military involvement. Chances are though that notwithstanding the training and materiel placed in the hands of the junta forces that the situation on the ground is not materially changed. They will attack the newly independent territory, the defenders will retreat to second or third level defences and then use their mobility and superior tactical abilities to push back the attackers who have been weakened against each defensive line, while the invaders were busy thinking they were winning.
Up until now the civil war has been just that. What the future holds, who knows. It is clear that the Russian leadership does not want to involve their forces in Ukraine.
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The reason why is simple, Ukraine had many issues to overcome, they were pulling further away from Russia.
By causing a bigger problem and more in debt ( war is expensive) will set them in deeper hole.
Will take many more years to reach objective of EU. Gives Russia more time to pull them back into their sphere.
Also with luck, piss of as many Ukrainians as possible about troubles in Ukraine.
Making Russia look even better.
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Looks like the pro-western parties in Ukraine have won Ukraine's parliamentary election Sunday, at least according to exit polling. The results indicated overwhelming consensus on Ukraine's bid to steer from Russia's orbit to a pro-Western course, eventually targeting European Union membership.
"More than three quarters of voters who took part in the polls gave strong and irreversible backing to Ukraine's path to Europe," Poroshenko said in nationally televised comments. Voters in Crimea and in separatist-controlled areas of the eastern Lugansk and Donetsk provinces -- about five million of Ukraine's 36.5 million-strong electorate -- were unable to cast ballots. Even 25,000 soldiers deployed in the war zone were shut out, Poroshenko said, blaming the outgoing parliament for failing to make provisions.
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-west-nationalist-parties-win-ukraine-vote-exit-180649926.html
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Westy, I was actually in one of the Polling Stations yesterday here in Ukraine, my wife and family went to vote and later in the day, after the 8pm close, most of the relevant news channels were pointing to the same thing, exit polls were predicting the same thing, pro-western parties were looking to be coming out of this very strong.
This morning votes are still being counted, but that's how it's looking.
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Yesterday I spent an hour on Skype talking with my brother in law on Skype. We talked about lots of things - the children mostly :) but we also spoke at some length about yesterday's elections.
Yuri said he would not vote because there were no pro Russian candidates on the ballot paper. He lives in Vinnitsia in Western Ukraine, I asked him if this was just in his area. He replied no, the situation is much the same throughout Ukraine. There are very, very, few pro Russian candidates.
He joked that it was like the old times - Vote for any gangster you like! :ROFL:
Yuri does not speak Ukrainse, only Russian and he told me he is just keeping his mouth shut when he is outside his flat. Russians are now hated and revilled. It is like the last 70 years of history counts for nothing. You have to understand this is a Russian military family, both grandfathers were killed in the patriotic war fighting in Ukraine. Father was a general officer. His half brother was killed in Afghanistan. Yuri too was an officer in the Ukrainian army.
I think there are millions of ethnic Russians living in Ukraine who share these views, but they are too scared to draw attention to themselves. If no candidates who support your community are allowed to stand how can these elections be democratic ???
Remember the Jews only got to vote for National Socialist party candidates in the 1930s - Sick !
These elections are just as much of a scam as those held in Donbass.
Yet the western media trumpet them as free, fair and democratic :dh:
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Yes, Les is right and his brother in law is right to be worried.
Don't forget that the junta has made it impossible for party blocs that represent the 'Russians' to stand for election, although some appear, in the regions, to have been standing as individual candidates - and courageous people they are for having dared to do so.
The new policy of 'lustration' is a purge of all previous knowledge and experience from all levels of government and the civil service and that, apart from being an overtly discriminatory act, is also a sure sign that knowledge and experience are also being purged from Ukraine in a not dissimilar manner to that which happened in China and Cambodia with similar results in each case.
A point worth noting, the legislation had to be amended at a late stage in order that Poroshenko not be barred from being president due to his previous service in the national administration.
Whatever we might choose to believe as the accepted truth these were not representative or free elections. Those in doubt about this might choose to wonder why, apart from the barring of large representative political parties from the election, was it that in Odessa, a part of the country that is under the control of the Kiev regime, the claimed electoral turnout was lower than recorded in Donetsk or Lugansk? That little fact will likely be narrative edited to suit a more acceptable framing of the narrative in short order.
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Yuri does not speak Ukrainse, only Russian and he told me he is just keeping his mouth shut when he is outside his flat. Russians are now hated and revilled. It is like the last 70 years of history counts for nothing. You have to understand this is a Russian military family, both grandfathers were killed in the patriotic war fighting in Ukraine. Father was a general officer. His half brother was killed in Afghanistan. Yuri too was an officer in the Ukrainian army.
I think there are millions of ethnic Russians living in Ukraine who share these views, but they are too scared to draw attention to themselves. If no candidates who support your community are allowed to stand how can these elections be democratic ???
These elections are just as much of a scam as those held in Donbass.
Les-- I call BS to virtually all you say.If he has reached those conclusions he is on too much Vodka.
I don't doubt that he may have felt some of these things-- but it is the result of deluded outdated thinking. A little like yours Les.
As for pro-Rus candidates-nothing stopping them nominating.Only common sense !
Have a look at the sheer numbers supporting a new direction--it is overwhelming majority.Despite how Huilo wants it--that is how a democracy works.
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In case you missed it---
The Ukrainian Mind-Set
October 25, 2014
How have Ukrainian attitudes toward the EU, Russia, and NATO changed? Is it possible to conduct opinion polls in the Donbas? And why is support for the Ukrainian Communist Party in decline?
On the eve of critical parliamentary elections in Ukraine, Dmitry Volchek of RFE/RL's Russian Service speaks to Kiev-based sociologist Iryna Bekeshkyna, director of the Democratic Initiative polling fund.
RFE/RL: Since the emotional months of the revolution, we've seen a return to everyday problems. The new government isn't perfect. There's still inaction, corruption. Russia felt the same letdown in 1992 after the uplift that followed the Soviet collapse. Has the cooling-off period already begun in Ukraine, or is it still in the romantic phase?
Iryna Bekeshkyna: The fact is that we can't have a classic postrevolutionary syndrome here, because the revolution was immediately followed by military action and actually an undeclared war. So public enthusiasm has continued, only in a different form. According to our data, 35 percent of the population has given money to the army. That's a lot. Twenty-five percent have helped refugees by donating food, clothes, etc. You can't call this a romantic phase. It's more that active members of the population realize that they have to support the government, at least in certain ways, while there's a war on. If there's wasn't a war, these activists would be focusing their actions the other way around.
RFE/RL: The Ukrainian revolution began because then-President Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union. Now that deal has been signed. How do ordinary Ukrainians feel now about the process and prospects for EU integration?
Bekeshkyna: I wouldn't say that the revolution began because of the refusal to sign the agreement. People started to protest after that, but it was mainly young people, and very modest little protests. The mass demonstrations started after these students were brutally beaten. That was the last straw. "They're beating us!"
This revolution was called a revolution of dignity. People came out in order to show their values. The main motive was not so much the signing of the European integration deal but how to remove the regime. The regime was removed. Not all of Maidan's [eds: the antigovernment protest movement based on Kiev's Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square)] goals were met, although a majority of them were, including early presidential and parliamentary elections. But the people who are guilty of repression have yet to be punished. Corruption remains unresolved.
RFE/RL: Is the desire to punish Yanukovych and his inner circle still as strong as it was several months ago?
Bekeshkyna: I think it's not as strong, but it's still there. A lot of the old guard still remain in their posts at the local level. And the anger is no longer directed only at the former authorities. People are angry at the current government as well.
RFE/RL: Another important consequence of the Ukrainian revolution has been de-Communization -- tearing down Lenin statues, getting rid of communist symbols, and arguing about banning the Communist Party. Has your center looked at public views regarding the Communists?
Bekeshkyna: I think the most telling demonstration of how people feel about the Communists will be their results in this election. In the last elections they took 10 percent. Now it's entirely possible that they won't get into parliament at all. It's clear that their support has fallen by more than half.
RFE/RL: How important are improved NATO ties for most Ukrainians?
Bekeshkyna: There's been a dramatic change compared to last year. In recent years, people generally preferred the idea of neutral status. Neutrality had 45 to 50 percent support; NATO membership generally got between 12-14 percent. This year, support for the notion of neutral status has fallen by half. Now neutrality has 22 percent support and NATO membership has 44 percent. Support for a military alliance with Russia has fallen from 26 percent to 12.
This revolution was called a revolution of dignity.... The main motive was not so much the signing of the European integration deal but how to remove the regime.
We posed a question about the possibility of a referendum on NATO membership. This referendum would pass simply because opponents wouldn't turn out. But I think it would be premature to hold such a referendum now, because it would just divide society all over again. The east is still strongly opposed to NATO membership. Now is the time for stitching the country back together, not tearing it apart for the sake of certain issues.
RFE/RL: Sociologists in Russia have noted a sharp rise in anti-Ukrainian sentiment there. What about Ukrainians? How has their attitude toward Russia changed?
Bekeshkyna: It's also gotten worse. But Ukrainians still are much more positive about Russians than Russians are about Ukrainians. Unlike Russians, Ukrainians differentiate between the Russian government and Russian people. There's no mass anti-Russian propaganda in Ukraine.
RFE/RL: Do views on issues like NATO and the Communist Party vary drastically from region to region?
Bekeshkyna: On NATO, yes. Because if it used to be just western Ukraine where you would see majority support for NATO membership, now the country is basically divided in half on the issue. As regards EU membership, it's become much more consolidated. Only the Donbas remains opposed. The Donbas is also the only place where the Communists have any support, and even that is only 14 percent.
RFE/RL: So it's possible to conduct polls in the separatist territories?
Bekeshkyna: They were part of a nationwide survey. It wasn't on a wide scale -- we used the same quota we always use. We had about 140 people working in Donetsk Oblast and close to 100 in Lugansk. There's no problem doing poll work in the liberated territories, but we also managed to work in the occupied territories because there's still a network of sociologists. Some left, but some stayed, and they're happy for the chance to earn some money. We're planning to conduct large-scale surveys in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk soon, but only in the liberated territories.
RFE/RL: Have attitudes toward separatism changed in the liberated territories?
Bekeshkyna: Yes. They're changing in both the liberated territories and the territories held by the so-called Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics. If you take an indicator like the wish for the region to leave Ukraine and join Russia, only 10 percent of people in the liberated territories are in favor. In the so-called DNR and LNR, that figure goes up to 30 percent, but it's not the majority. Generally, the desire to join Russia in the areas has fallen sharply since May.
RFE/RL: Back in 1991, Russians were interested in many of the same issues that Ukrainians are interested in now -- NATO membership, EU integration. Nobody could have predicted that 20 years later Josef Stalin would have returned as a kind of national idol and the West would once again be seen as an enemy. Do you think that Ukraine will experience the same kind of reversal?
Bekeshkyna: Here in Ukraine, where much of the population was affected by the Great Famine, Stalin will never be an idol. As regards the appeal of a powerful authoritarian leader...Ukraine never threw itself behind political idols the way Russia did. Ukrainians are more skeptical. Even in European surveys, Ukrainians stand out from other Europeans as huge skeptics. Ukraine isn't inclined toward tsarism.
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-taking-measure-mind-set/26655673.html
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While I may be mistaken (Halo will correct my ignorance) The United States had only one foray into what is now Canada.
In the end the "American's" retreated.
Since than both sides have moved forward.
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He lives in Vinnitsia in Western Ukraine, I asked him if this was just in his area. He replied no, the situation is much the same throughout Ukraine.
He joked that it was like the old times - Vote for any gangster you like! :ROFL:
Yuri does not speak Ukrainse, only Russian and he told me he is just keeping his mouth shut when he is outside his flat. Russians are now hated and revilled.
Leslie, While I assume you spoke with your brother in law. There is a problem the mayor of Vinnytsia now in the goverment is in fact Russian. Further I believe the president of Ukraine is from Vinnytsia. The city is the largest open market of Ukraine and while quite far from the Russian border a major pipeline to Russian for goods from Western Europe.
When I visited the city twice "Russian" was widely and openly spoken. I find it hard to believe this has changed so dramatically.
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While I may be mistaken (Halo will correct my ignorance) The United States had only one foray into what is now Canada.
In the end the "American's" retreated.
Since than both sides have moved forward.
The US invaded Canada several times. The first invasion occurred during the American Revolution. A small force invaded Quebec, making its way all the way to Quebec City, where things fizzled out. Not much is remembered of this invasion these days. Two of the invading army's senior officers later became famous or infamous. One was Benedict Arnold, who was a very competent officer until he gave the plans of the fortress at West Point to the British. The other was the formidable Daniel Morgan, the best American battle general of the Revolution.
The next invasions occurred during the War of 1812. The US attacked in the East as well as in the West, across the Detroit River, into the town today called Windsor (I know - home of the Canadian Ballet). The invasions were not well thought out, were poorly executed, and failed. There was also that matter of US soldiers setting fire to the Legislative Assembly building in York (now Toronto).
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AvHdB,
Poroshenko controls the confectionery company Roshen which has a very large manufacturing facility in Vinnitsa. This factory has been hit very hard as Russia no longer imports Roshen products. This brand is not well known in the west, though it makes great chocolate!
I agree, The mayor of Vinnitsa is a reasonable guy who has made a positive contribution to the growth of the city in the past. He is also an astute politician who will keep on the winning side.
My wife is from Vinnitsa so I know the place very well. I have spent over a year living there over the last dozen years. I have no doubt that the anti Russian atmosphere is real, Yuri has no reason to lie to me. His opinions are also in accord with our other friends in Vinnitsa. By the way the local economy has nose dived in the past year. If this years harvest is not traded profitably there is going to be real hardship.
My friends are actually in shock with what has happened. A lifetime of peaceable coexistence shattered in months.
Poroshenko and the newly elected government will do nothing to reconcile the communities. IMHO they will make matters worse.
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Leslied said:
"My friends are actually in shock with what has happened. A lifetime of peaceable coexistence shattered in months."
This pretty much sums up my wife's and her friends' feelings as well. She is from Kherson...She just shakes her head and looks sad when the subject comes up.
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Yesterday I spent an hour on Skype talking with my brother in law on Skype. We talked about lots of things - the children mostly :) but we also spoke at some length about yesterday's elections.
Yuri said he would not vote because there were no pro Russian candidates on the ballot paper. He lives in Vinnitsia in Western Ukraine, I asked him if this was just in his area. He replied no, the situation is much the same throughout Ukraine. There are very, very, few pro Russian candidates.
Les, I doubt you can call Vinnitsa as being in Western Ukraine, not properly WU anyway, (even more so if they are all pro Russian) Central for sure, but Western is stretching it more than a tad! with regards your BiL's comments about no pro *Russian candidates, here is a link, if you can't read Ukrainian, let me know and I will highlight them for you, there were c.FOUR main pro Russian parties with plenty of candidates, again I can name them for you, is it their fault if no one voted for them though.
List of all candidates includes pro Russian/Ukrainian etc and independents.
http://tvi.ua/new/2014/10/07/vybory_do_rady_2014_povnyy_spysok_kandydativ_mazhorytarnykiv_u_vinnyckiy_oblasti
One has to ask, and this is the same with so many others, if your BiL is so pro Russian, why isn't he living there, it gets somewhat annoying that so many on here think that the pro Russian people who live in Ukraine (another Nation) think that Ukraine should do as all the Russians living there say they should do and not what their OWN (Ukrainian) people want, not to mention the invasion and all that has stirred up. Think about if the shoe was on the other foot, think about the problems we have in the UK with all the Asian immigration trying to change our laws, do we like it, not one jot!
*there were c.29 parties (pro Russian, pro Ukrainian, Darth Vader etc) but only 6 or 7 got enough votes (>5%) to go through to Parliament. From the Vinnitsa area, none of the pro Russian parties were voted through, but they were on the ballot papers.
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He lives in Vinnitsia in Western Ukraine, I asked him if this was just in his area. He replied no, the situation is much the same throughout Ukraine.
He joked that it was like the old times - Vote for any gangster you like! :ROFL:
Yuri does not speak Ukrainse, only Russian and he told me he is just keeping his mouth shut when he is outside his flat. Russians are now hated and revilled.
Leslie, While I assume you spoke with your brother in law. There is a problem the mayor of Vinnytsia now in the goverment is in fact Russian. Further I believe the president of Ukraine is from Vinnytsia. The city is the largest open market of Ukraine and while quite far from the Russian border a major pipeline to Russian for goods from Western Europe.
When I visited the city twice "Russian" was widely and openly spoken. I find it hard to believe this has changed so dramatically.
I would have to question that AV, and say that title probably is held by Odessa? although I cannot prove it either way at the moment.
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Russians are now hated and revilled. It is like the last 70 years of history counts for nothing.
Do you want a hint as to why this is? :coffeeread:
He must not follow the news about the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians huh? :'(
The 70 years of history must not mean much to the Russians either.
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Leslied, I have no doubt this is happening, likely in some circles more than others.
My wife was born in Russia and has family there. she has lived most of her life in
Ukraine, her son was also born in Russia and has lived all his life in Ukraine.
She and her son have not received and negative feed back directed at them, but plenty directed at Russia!
For her part, she wants nothing to do with Putin, but does not blame the people.
Her son has two friends in the military who know his history, are fighting in the east, the are still great friends.
As with many threads here it is dangerous to paint all people with the same brush.
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Les, I doubt you can call Vinnitsa as being in Western Ukraine, (even more so if they are all pro Russian) Central for sure, but Western is stretching it more than a tad! with regards your BiL's comments about no pro *Russian candidates, here is a link, if you can't read Ukrainian, let me know and I will highlight them for you, there were c.FOUR main pro Russian parties with plenty of candidates, again I can name them for you, is it their fault if no one voted for them though.
List of all candidates includes pro Russian/Ukrainian etc and independents.
http://tvi.ua/new/2014/10/07/vybory_do_rady_2014_povnyy_spysok_kandydativ_mazhorytarnykiv_u_vinnyckiy_oblasti
*there were c.29 parties (pro Russian, pro Ukrainian, Darth Vader etc) but only 6 or 7 got enough votes (>5%) to go through to Parliament. From the Vinnitsa area, none of the pro Russian parties were voted through, but they were on the ballot papers.
Chris,
I don't speak (or read) Ukrainse but I will take your word that the information you post is correct.
After all he has only lived in Vinnitsa for 47 years (:) Maybe he is just being apathetic, that no one will represent his views ???
One has to ask, and this is the same with so many others, if your BiL is so pro Russian, why isn't he living there, it gets somewhat annoying that so many on here think that the pro Russian people who live in Ukraine (another Nation) think that Ukraine should do as all the Russians living there say they should do and not what their OWN (Ukrainian) people want.
That is an odious comment Chris. Ukraine is NOT just for ethnic Ukrainians, several historic events ensured that about a quarter of the population is ethnic Russian. A successful government has to be inclusive.
That attitude reminds me of a conversation I had in the mid 1990's in a bar in Greenwich village with an Irish American. He ranted at me "why don't you Brits get out of Ireland" I replied "why don't you sling all the Jews out of NYC?"
Moronic argument...
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As with many threads here it is dangerous to paint all people with the same brush.
Agreed. I think these events have impacted people differently.
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It is amazing how quickly divisions can be created out of nothing and one finds oneself wondering just why they are manufactured. Qui bone?
Ukraine did not exist as a country until very recent times. As those who know their history know it was only under Soviet rule that Ukraine actually came to be the country that we know today. A chunk was Poland until WW2 and a load more was Russian until after WW2.
This is not about Ukrainians and Russians, that is an invented division that ill serves most of the people who live there. Until recently there was no Russian/Ukrainian they were all one people. At least within those parts that were not, until recently Romanian, Hungarian and Polish.
What see here is just how fragile our veneer of civilisation is once people are told to give into their animal instincts. This lesson has been learned and taught many times over but previously the effect was accidental, now, possibly since Yugoslavia, it has become a part of the power manipulations of external actors.
Wanna understand why people can't agree about various stuff, such as about Bandera in Ukraine? It is because until a few months ago it mattered to almost nobody and the only reason it became an issue was in order to emphasise a divide, it was not an accident.
These elections will serve to enforce those artificial divisions.
I can understand Leslie's brother in law. Where I live there are times when I choose to say nothing, or to feign agreement with stuff I know to be errant rubbish. I did not feel that need until those artificial divides started to be erected here too.
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New face, old game? Only time will tell for sure.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3175914-ukraine-to-reform-with-eye-europe.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
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I would have to question that AV, and say that title probably is held by Odessa? although I cannot prove it either way at the moment.
Yes, 7 km market in Odessa has been argued to be the largest in Europe.
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I would have to question that AV, and say that title probably is held by Odessa? although I cannot prove it either way at the moment.
Yes, 7 km market in Odessa has been argued to be the largest in Europe.
The one in Kharkov is huge, too...
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I would have to question that AV, and say that title probably is held by Odessa? although I cannot prove it either way at the moment.
Yes, 7 km market in Odessa has been argued to be the largest in Europe.
The one in Kharkov is huge, too...
Yes, looks enormous as well. I see different stats online for Barabashovo. Some pages say it is the largest in Ukraine and some say 14th largest in Europe. Appears Ukraine is home to some of the largest markets in Europe whatever city they happen to lie in.
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I would have to question that AV, and say that title probably is held by Odessa? although I cannot prove it either way at the moment.
Yes, 7 km market in Odessa has been argued to be the largest in Europe.
The one in Kharkov is huge, too...
I read somewhere, the Odessa is the largest in the world ( not sure if true)
I spent 4 hours and never even touched on what was there.
The one in Chernivtsi is huge also, I know it took two days to see most, not all.
From lawn mower parts, to diamonds & wedding dresses :chuckle:
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That's a bunch bigger than the one in Cherkasy eh ? That one is about 4 city blocks squared.
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That's a bunch bigger than the one in Cherkasy eh ? That one is about 4 city blocks squared.
Look at the one in Kharkov in Google Earth. It is the size of some small Ukrainian cities..:-) I just remember all the beautiful girls sitting on barstools outside each store/stall trying to entice you to come in with a seductive "Privet."
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I know what you mean! Except my 'old babuska' doesn't like me to look too hard.. :biggrin:
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can be fun, when girls wish to try on some jeans, they strip down, and try them on :chuckle:
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I just remember all the beautiful girls sitting on barstools outside each store/stall trying to entice you to come in with a seductive "Privet."
Hmmm, my wife told me the one in Odessa was not on our schedule....
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My wife is from Vinnitsa so I know the place very well. I have spent over a year living there over the last dozen years. I have no doubt that the anti Russian atmosphere is real, Yuri has no reason to lie to me. His opinions are also in accord with our other friends in Vinnitsa. By the way the local economy has nose dived in the past year. If this years harvest is not traded profitably there is going to be real hardship.
My friends are actually in shock with what has happened. A lifetime of peaceable coexistence shattered in months.
Poroshenko and the newly elected government will do nothing to reconcile the communities. IMHO they will make matters worse.
I am aiming this at Les--his comments personify so many of yesterdays people here on the forum-plus those who cannot accept or understand a changing Ukraine.( add the ignorant also)
Les-- you say it here yourself-your experience on the ground is outdated-stuck in a previous point in time- and has little to do with current Ukraine.
Why do you think this last year has been different? Cant you see political upheaval and the subsequent attempt to destabilise Ukraine by Russia would have an impact?Add the matter of the invasion by Russia and of course it is not going to be the same old same old!
There still is peaceful co-existence in Ukraine-- the vitriol is aimed at Putin & Russians who support him-- NOT Russians or Russian speakers at large.Your comments are utter rubbish and reflect Kremlin propaganda-not reality.
Your last sentence re Poroshenko is simply ridiculous-it flies against all the evidence and what has already been achieved--in most difficult circumstances. Reform coming from so far back( a completely corrupt and incompetent Yanukovytch) was always going to be difficult.
A few interesting quotes--these are from Khakiv which is as close to Russia physically as any Ukrainian city.Despite what some try and tell us-- still very much a Ukrainian city.
The quotes here are consistent with wider opinion polls data( see post upthread) and highlight my point above about some (not all) older people only being able to see short term-in contrast-the younger population want a "new" direction for Ukraine-- and the fact is the election has again confirmed this with a large majority.It is entirely inappropriate for a foreign country on any pretext attempting to interfere in internal affairs of a democracy.
Voters in Kharkov split between East and West
Kharkov -- Voters in Ukraine's second-largest city were diverse in their political preferences during the parliamentary election on Oct. 26.
Some, usually older, people threw their support behind the Opposition Bloc, a group of former and current Party of Regions functionaries, and other candidates linked to former President Viktor Yanukovych's regime.
Others preferred the pro-European parties that are expected to dominate the next parliament. The split exemplified Kharkov's middle position between western and central Ukraine, where voters tend to support Western values, and Donbas, where pro-Russian sentiment is strong.
Most voters interviewed by the Kiev Post did not give their last name for security reasons.
Yury, a 37-year old sales manager, said he had voted for the Right Sector ultranationalist party because it symbolizes a pro-Ukrainian and pro-European choice.
“If not for Russia, we would live freely like the Czech Republic and other countries,” he said. “We would like to reject slavery and become a normal country.”
Ivan, 63, a pensioner, said he had voted for former Defense Minister Anatoly Hrytsenko's Civil Position party. “He hasn't switched from one party to another,” Ivan said. “I believe him.”
Guzel, a 48-old marketing specialist, said she had chosen the Poroshenko Bloc. She said she supported the president because of the lustration law he signed earlier this month and his economic program.
Natalya, 70, a pensioner, voted for the Opposition Bloc and said she was unhappy with current authorities. She argued that she had enjoyed many benefits like permanent light and central heating under the Yanukovych regime but no longer did.
Expectations of what the next Verkhovna Rada will be like were also different.
“There should be no scandals and scuffles,” said Ivan, the pensioner.
They shouldn't treat each other as enemies. Everyone should work for a united Ukraine.”
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/voters-in-Kharkov-split-between-east-and-west-369521.html
I like the last sentence--amen.
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I would have to question that AV, and say that title probably is held by Odessa? although I cannot prove it either way at the moment.
Yes, 7 km market in Odessa has been argued to be the largest in Europe.
The one in Kharkov is huge, too...
I read somewhere, the Odessa is the largest in the world ( not sure if true)
I spent 4 hours and never even touched on what was there.
The one in Chernivtsi is huge also, I know it took two days to see most, not all.
From lawn mower parts, to diamonds & wedding dresses :chuckle:
Its massive*, even people from Eastern Ukraine come to this one to buy in bulk, many goods entering the country are either shipped to Odessa (by sea) or Chernivtsi (by road) I will be there again later this morning, its quite an experience :-X
*They also have the bulk market further down the road, (other side of the curtain sellers) where goods are sold overnight, in bulk, for early dispatch in the mornings to other cities in Ukraine.
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Les, I doubt you can call Vinnitsa as being in Western Ukraine, (even more so if they are all pro Russian) Central for sure, but Western is stretching it more than a tad! with regards your BiL's comments about no pro *Russian candidates, here is a link, if you can't read Ukrainian, let me know and I will highlight them for you, there were c.FOUR main pro Russian parties with plenty of candidates, again I can name them for you, is it their fault if no one voted for them though.
List of all candidates includes pro Russian/Ukrainian etc and independents.
http://tvi.ua/new/2014/10/07/vybory_do_rady_2014_povnyy_spysok_kandydativ_mazhorytarnykiv_u_vinnyckiy_oblasti
*there were c.29 parties (pro Russian, pro Ukrainian, Darth Vader etc) but only 6 or 7 got enough votes (>5%) to go through to Parliament. From the Vinnitsa area, none of the pro Russian parties were voted through, but they were on the ballot papers.
Chris,
I don't speak (or read) Ukrainse but I will take your word that the information you post is correct.
After all he has only lived in Vinnitsa for 47 years (:) Maybe he is just being apathetic, that no one will represent his views ???
One has to ask, and this is the same with so many others, if your BiL is so pro Russian, why isn't he living there, it gets somewhat annoying that so many on here think that the pro Russian people who live in Ukraine (another Nation) think that Ukraine should do as all the Russians living there say they should do and not what their OWN (Ukrainian) people want.
That is an odious comment Chris. Ukraine is NOT just for ethnic Ukrainians, several historic events ensured that about a quarter of the population is ethnic Russian. A successful government has to be inclusive.
That attitude reminds me of a conversation I had in the mid 1990's in a bar in Greenwich village with an Irish American. He ranted at me "why don't you Brits get out of Ireland" I replied "why don't you sling all the Jews out of NYC?"
Moronic argument...
No, a moronic argument is for someone to live in a country for 47 years and still hate it and try to change it in a way that suits only him, even when the majority wants to move in another direction.
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IOU a beer for that one Chris! tiphat
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No, a moronic argument is for someone to live in a country for 47 years and still hate it and try to change it in a way that suits only him, even when the majority wants to move in another direction.
Chris you are obviously the type of person who sees only one side of an argument. Most ethnic Russians don't share that vision - period. A situation similar to Northern Ireland will evolve in my opinion. Eastern Ukraine will NEVER be ruled again from Kiev.
I will not comment further on this topic.
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It is amazing how quickly divisions can be created out of nothing and one finds oneself wondering just why they are manufactured. Qui bone?
Ukraine did not exist as a country until very recent times. As those who know their history know it was only under Soviet rule that Ukraine actually came to be the country that we know today. A chunk was Poland until WW2 and a load more was Russian until after WW2.
This is not about Ukrainians and Russians, that is an invented division that ill serves most of the people who live there. Until recently there was no Russian/Ukrainian they were all one people. At least within those parts that were not, until recently Romanian, Hungarian and Polish.
What see here is just how fragile our veneer of civilisation is once people are told to give into their animal instincts. This lesson has been learned and taught many times over but previously the effect was accidental, now, possibly since Yugoslavia, it has become a part of the power manipulations of external actors.
Wanna understand why people can't agree about various stuff, such as about Bandera in Ukraine? It is because until a few months ago it mattered to almost nobody and the only reason it became an issue was in order to emphasise a divide, it was not an accident.
These elections will serve to enforce those artificial divisions.
I can understand Leslie's brother in law. Where I live there are times when I choose to say nothing, or to feign agreement with stuff I know to be errant rubbish. I did not feel that need until those artificial divides started to be erected here too.
Much of this I agree with but it also happens to be how civilisation works.
We can only judge nations by their current internationally recognised boundaries and not how things used to be back in the day. In fact, much of Europe has changed over the last 100 or so years and it wouldn't make sense to form opinions on current affairs with old news.
Elections wherever they are held in the globe, will only serve to enforce artificial divisions. Look at the UK for instance and consider the political landscape we're currently faced with. Divisions in Scotland were evident during the referendum campaign with both sides of the argument campaigning passionately, I even shared heated debate with my own father. Now we have the drama of EU membership and surly more emotion to follow.
My point is, I agree with everything you said and its a fact of modern civilisation.
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No, a moronic argument is for someone to live in a country for 47 years and still hate it and try to change it in a way that suits only him, even when the majority wants to move in another direction.
Chris you are obviously the type of person who sees only one side of an argument. Most ethnic Russians don't share that vision - period. A situation similar to Northern Ireland will evolve in my opinion. Eastern Ukraine will NEVER be ruled again from Kiev.
I will not comment further on this topic.
No Les, I see both sides, much like you, probably why we will never agree, in fact until only a few days ago I had hardly uttered a word on this situation on this board, it was best to stay quiet IMO and let others post what they thought, but I saw things in your OP that were quite clearly incorrect.
Yes this is similar to NI, Ukraine want to be independent from Russia, that's all!
EDIT just saw your PM thanks and I agree, best to let things be.
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It is great to hear both sides of argument.
Only truly works when each listens to both sides.
Rare here.
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It is great to hear both sides of argument.
Only truly works when each listens to both sides.
Rare here.
You know Trevor, in the last two weeks I have had numerous meetings, meals, private events with Russians and Ukrainians, all living in WU, only two nights ago there were 14 of us at a meal, some Russian, some Ukrainian, all speaking a mixture of both languages, no one fell out, there was no animosity towards each other, all were saddened by the events in EU of course, but one thing they all seemed to agree on, was that they wanted what was best for Ukraine, afterall that is the country they all choose to live in or were born in.
They don't want Russians to move out of Ukraine, they are not bothered what language they speak, they just don't want to be accountable to Putin, its really as simple as that.
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It is great to hear both sides of argument.
Only truly works when each listens to both sides.
Rare here.
You know Trevor, in the last two weeks I have had numerous meetings, meals, private events with Russians and Ukrainians, all living in WU, only two nights ago there were 14 of us at a meal, some Russian, some Ukrainian, all speaking a mixture of both languages, no one fell out, there was no animosity towards each other, all were saddened by the events in EU of course, but one thing they all seemed to agree on, was that they wanted what was best for Ukraine, afterall that is the country they all choose to live in or were born in.
They don't want Russians to move out of Ukraine, they are not bothered what language they speak, they just don't want to be accountable to Putin, its really as simple as that.
It should be that simple. unfortunately it never is.
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It is great to hear both sides of argument.
Only truly works when each listens to both sides.
Rare here.
You know Trevor, in the last two weeks I have had numerous meetings, meals, private events with Russians and Ukrainians, all living in WU, only two nights ago there were 14 of us at a meal, some Russian, some Ukrainian, all speaking a mixture of both languages, no one fell out, there was no animosity towards each other, all were saddened by the events in EU of course, but one thing they all seemed to agree on, was that they wanted what was best for Ukraine, afterall that is the country they all choose to live in or were born in.
They don't want Russians to move out of Ukraine, they are not bothered what language they speak, they just don't want to be accountable to Putin, its really as simple as that.
Curious if any of these people laid blame for events at the door of the EU/US?
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It is great to hear both sides of argument.
Only truly works when each listens to both sides.
Rare here.
You know Trevor, in the last two weeks I have had numerous meetings, meals, private events with Russians and Ukrainians, all living in WU, only two nights ago there were 14 of us at a meal, some Russian, some Ukrainian, all speaking a mixture of both languages, no one fell out, there was no animosity towards each other, all were saddened by the events in EU of course, but one thing they all seemed to agree on, was that they wanted what was best for Ukraine, afterall that is the country they all choose to live in or were born in.
They don't want Russians to move out of Ukraine, they are not bothered what language they speak, they just don't want to be accountable to Putin, its really as simple as that.
Curious if any of these people laid blame for events at the door of the EU/US?
No quite the contrary, the impression I got was that if the EU/US had not been involved to some extent Russia would have been at the Romanian border by now. They want to be part of Europe, not Russia.
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But Europe didn't invite them. They just think they did.
I am sure you corrected them. :-X
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Chris, you probably missed, while eating all your meals, but Ukraine IS independent of Russia. You most certainly missed that this arrangement is MUCH better for Russia than a dependent Ukraine.
There has been perfect clarity on the matter for the longest time.
What is confusing you, apart from the wine and vodka you were drinking at all those meals, is that Ukraine is (was) a very active trading partner of Russia's and vice versa. Some 20% of Ukraine's GDP is derived from what your dinner companions were selling to Russia.
Chris it is the muddy thinking that you are showing in your, probably, misremembered and misreported recollections of your dinner conversations that causes a load of problems - don't worry, it isn't just you, plenty of others are doing the same - forgetting to think.
You see, if you were to sit down and think for just a moment you'd KNOW that you were just writing twaddle. If you thought for a moment about your recollections you'd end up writing comments about how your dinner companions, who rely upon Russia for energy and for their incomes, are misunderstanding their own situation. You'd be telling us what a pity it was that they did not understand the difference between independence of the country and its dependence upon a network of trade and social connections.
You'd probably note, given your long term association with your dinner companions, the odd way in which issues that less than a year ago were unimportant, trivial even, have become in an irrational manner so important.
If you and others gave these issues just a little thought then maybe you could have discussed some of this stuff with your dinner party neighbours over a decent after dinner brandy and maybe they might have been led to do some thinking too.
Sad, very sad. :'(
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No, a moronic argument is for someone to live in a country for 47 years and still hate it and try to change it in a way that suits only him, even when the majority wants to move in another direction.
This!
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No quite the contrary, the impression I got was that if the EU/US had not been involved to some extent Russia would have been at the Romanian border by now. They want to be part of Europe, not Russia.
Same story with the Ukrainians I know. They would much rather have EU/US involvement in their country than have anything to do with Russia at this point. Several still give me grief for choosing to work in this country.
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Current state of RU-UA relations in Eastern Ukraine...
Not to much wife hinting in Donetsk these days though I think there may be rich pickings of young ladies looking for an escape hatch:
Ukraine fighters, surrounded at wrecked airport, refuse to give up
By Sergei L. Loiko
http://www.latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-ukraine-airport-20141028-story.html#page=1
This article is related to: Column One, World News, Air Transportation, Ukraine, Russia, Armed Conflicts, Armed Forces
Only three floors remain in the blackened skeleton of the seven-story, glass-walled airport terminal, opened with a burst of national pride two years ago for the Euro 2012 soccer championship..
Ukrainian commandos control two of them: the ground and second floors.
The pro-Russia separatists they're fighting have infiltrated the third floor despite entrances barricaded with debris and booby traps. The separatists have also found a way into the basement, with its system of narrow passageways leading beyond the airport grounds.
They are enemies sharing the same building, playing a claustrophobic game of cat and mouse in shadowy rooms and burned-out boarding jetways.
Just after midnight on a recent night, a separatist fighter suddenly appeared on a balcony of the third floor and shot a Mukha grenade down at the onetime departure lounge where the Ukrainian troops were trying to sleep on cold concrete floors.
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http://news.yahoo.com/lavrov-says-russia-recognize-rebel-vote-east-ukraine-143329851.html
By Richard Balmforth
KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine on Tuesday condemned as "destructive and provocative" Russia's stance towards elections organized by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine next Sunday, saying Moscow's recognition of the vote could wreck chances of bringing peace.
The Nov. 2 vote would be being held in defiance of Ukrainian national elections last Sunday in which pro-Western parties, dedicated to holding the former Soviet republic together and negotiating a settlement to the conflict, triumphed.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, in an interview with Russian media, said the pending vote being organized by the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk "people's republics" "would be important from the point of view of legitimizing power".
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It is great to hear both sides of argument.
Only truly works when each listens to both sides.
Rare here.
You know Trevor, in the last two weeks I have had numerous meetings, meals, private events with Russians and Ukrainians, all living in WU, only two nights ago there were 14 of us at a meal, some Russian, some Ukrainian, all speaking a mixture of both languages, no one fell out, there was no animosity towards each other, all were saddened by the events in EU of course, but one thing they all seemed to agree on, was that they wanted what was best for Ukraine, afterall that is the country they all choose to live in or were born in.
They don't want Russians to move out of Ukraine, they are not bothered what language they speak, they just don't want to be accountable to Putin, its really as simple as that.
Curious if any of these people laid blame for events at the door of the EU/US?
Most I speak to know there is US/EU involvement, not all of it they understand, but then we don't either for all
the lip flapping about it. Most want more EU involvement for the most part.
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Chris, you probably missed, while eating all your meals, but Ukraine IS independent of Russia. You most certainly missed that this arrangement is MUCH better for Russia than a dependent Ukraine.
There has been perfect clarity on the matter for the longest time.
What is confusing you, apart from the wine and vodka you were drinking at all those meals, is that Ukraine is (was) a very active trading partner of Russia's and vice versa. Some 20% of Ukraine's GDP is derived from what your dinner companions were selling to Russia.
Chris it is the muddy thinking that you are showing in your, probably, misremembered and misreported recollections of your dinner conversations that causes a load of problems - don't worry, it isn't just you, plenty of others are doing the same - forgetting to think.
You see, if you were to sit down and think for just a moment you'd KNOW that you were just writing twaddle. If you thought for a moment about your recollections you'd end up writing comments about how your dinner companions, who rely upon Russia for energy and for their incomes, are misunderstanding their own situation. You'd be telling us what a pity it was that they did not understand the difference between independence of the country and its dependence upon a network of trade and social connections.
You'd probably note, given your long term association with your dinner companions, the odd way in which issues that less than a year ago were unimportant, trivial even, have become in an irrational manner so important.
If you and others gave these issues just a little thought then maybe you could have discussed some of this stuff with your dinner party neighbours over a decent after dinner brandy and maybe they might have been led to do some thinking too.
Sad, very sad. :'(
Your quick to point at people and blame drinking, I suggest you are the only one over indulging by your many
unsubstantiated rants, put the bottle down, back away from the keyboard and give it a rest.
Most of us will believe people speaking to people in country over a drunk bent over his keyboard 22 hours a day.
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Curious if any of these people laid blame for events at the door of the EU/US?
No quite the contrary, the impression I got was that if the EU/US had not been involved to some extent Russia would have been at the Romanian border by now. They want to be part of Europe, not Russia.
With that, the Putin followers wept... :green:
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Chris, you probably missed, while eating all your meals, but Ukraine IS independent of Russia. You most certainly missed that this arrangement is MUCH better for Russia than a dependent Ukraine.
There has been perfect clarity on the matter for the longest time.
What is confusing you, apart from the wine and vodka you were drinking at all those meals, is that Ukraine is (was) a very active trading partner of Russia's and vice versa. Some 20% of Ukraine's GDP is derived from what your dinner companions were selling to Russia.
Chris it is the muddy thinking that you are showing in your, probably, misremembered and misreported recollections of your dinner conversations that causes a load of problems - don't worry, it isn't just you, plenty of others are doing the same - forgetting to think.
You see, if you were to sit down and think for just a moment you'd KNOW that you were just writing twaddle. If you thought for a moment about your recollections you'd end up writing comments about how your dinner companions, who rely upon Russia for energy and for their incomes, are misunderstanding their own situation. You'd be telling us what a pity it was that they did not understand the difference between independence of the country and its dependence upon a network of trade and social connections.
You'd probably note, given your long term association with your dinner companions, the odd way in which issues that less than a year ago were unimportant, trivial even, have become in an irrational manner so important.
If you and others gave these issues just a little thought then maybe you could have discussed some of this stuff with your dinner party neighbours over a decent after dinner brandy and maybe they might have been led to do some thinking too.
Sad, very sad. :'(
It's a first time I am posting on this forum but as you were discussing my friends I thought I would reply. I understand that everyone speaks from their own experience, so I am really sorry that you are surrounded by heavy drinkers that have no better reasons to get together but only to get drunk and then talk about things they have no idea about.
I realise also that not all of us are lucky enough to have normal friends that are a pleasure to get together and talk about kids, our jobs, our parents and things we like and enjoy. You will be surprised some of us don't need a bottle to get together. But as you will not believe me any way, please just accept my sympathies for your poor and boring life.
Ira
(Chris wife)
ps no doubt he will have something to say when we get back home in a couple of days time, in the meantime we will be travelling.
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Way to go Ira!
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Hi Ira, hope you and kids are well, good to hear from you tiphat
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Chris, you probably missed, while eating all your meals, but Ukraine IS independent of Russia. You most certainly missed that this arrangement is MUCH better for Russia than a dependent Ukraine.
There has been perfect clarity on the matter for the longest time.
What is confusing you, apart from the wine and vodka you were drinking at all those meals, is that Ukraine is (was) a very active trading partner of Russia's and vice versa. Some 20% of Ukraine's GDP is derived from what your dinner companions were selling to Russia.
Chris it is the muddy thinking that you are showing in your, probably, misremembered and misreported recollections of your dinner conversations that causes a load of problems - don't worry, it isn't just you, plenty of others are doing the same - forgetting to think.
You see, if you were to sit down and think for just a moment you'd KNOW that you were just writing twaddle. If you thought for a moment about your recollections you'd end up writing comments about how your dinner companions, who rely upon Russia for energy and for their incomes, are misunderstanding their own situation. You'd be telling us what a pity it was that they did not understand the difference between independence of the country and its dependence upon a network of trade and social connections.
You'd probably note, given your long term association with your dinner companions, the odd way in which issues that less than a year ago were unimportant, trivial even, have become in an irrational manner so important.
If you and others gave these issues just a little thought then maybe you could have discussed some of this stuff with your dinner party neighbours over a decent after dinner brandy and maybe they might have been led to do some thinking too.
Sad, very sad. :'(
It's a first time I am posting on this forum but as you were discussing my friends I thought I would reply. I understand that everyone speaks from their own experience, so I am really sorry that you are surrounded by heavy drinkers that have no better reasons to get together but only to get drunk and then talk about things they have no idea about.
I realise also that not all of us are lucky enough to have normal friends that are a pleasure to get together and talk about kids, our jobs, our parents and things we like and enjoy. You will be surprised some of us don't need a bottle to get together. But as you will not believe me any way, please just accept my sympathies for your poor and boring life.
Ira
(Chris wife)
ps no doubt he will have something to say when we get back home in a couple of days time, in the meantime we will be travelling.
Andrew, It is amazing you are the poster RUA prat. On the other side you can be quite insightful. Curious is it a dependency or inadequacy?
Chris shared his insights into a group of common citizens of what is Ukraine over a dinner. You managed in one post to diminish them. It is in fact typical to your style or lack of grace and understanding.
Give it a rest. Man up and try to stay on the positive side of the forum.
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It has always seemed to me that ridiculing the opposing viewpoint has a limited role in any debate. Far better to expand on your own position whilst recognizing the self evident truth expressed in some of the opposing views.
Chris has no reason to lie about the views he encountered whilst in Ukraine. I do not doubt that the attitude of "lets all pull together for a united Ukraine" is a widely held viewpoint. However saying that you will "accept" Russian people into this grand design, but reject economic and social ties to their motherland is simply not acceptable to many ethnic Russians.
Chris is in western Ukraine - Chernivtsi where the political zeitgeist might well be exactly as he portrays. These feelings are not shared in eastern Ukraine where division from Russia is viewed with utter bafflement and sometimes rage. Why should the ethnic Russian majority in these oblasts even countenance a division from their Rodina???
These areas formed the electoral bedrock upon which Yanokovich attained the presidency. Sure he was corrupt but no more so than ALL Ukraine's past leaders. IMHO the new political order will soon settle into the comfortable nepotism that has mediated the political elite (of whatever suasion) since the war.
The solution here lies not in a united Ukraine governed from Kiev but in a devolved system which allows the regions much more self government. Poroshenko has admitted that he cannot defeat the eastern Ukraine separatists by force. Putin simply will not allow this and his western allies will not risk further escalation of this conflict. That option is off the table.
The true issue is can the western oblasts be kept within Ukraine? I think this is possible but this option has been dealt a setback by the results of the recent elections. I have no doubt that the elections in the eastern oblasts will support separation. This conflict is very far from settled...
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Why was my post deleted?
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It has always seemed to me that ridiculing the opposing viewpoint has a limited role in any debate. Far better to expand on your own position whilst recognizing the self evident truth expressed in some of the opposing views.
Chris has no reason to lie about the views he encountered whilst in Ukraine. I do not doubt that the attitude of "lets all pull together for a united Ukraine" is a widely held viewpoint. However saying that you will "accept" Russian people into this grand design, but reject economic and social ties to their motherland is simply not acceptable to many ethnic Russians.
Chris is in western Ukraine - Chernivtsi where the political zeitgeist might well be exactly as he portrays. These feelings are not shared in eastern Ukraine where division from Russia is viewed with utter bafflement and sometimes rage. Why should the ethnic Russian majority in these oblasts even countenance a division from their Rodina???
These areas formed the electoral bedrock upon which Yanokovich attained the presidency. Sure he was corrupt but no more so than ALL Ukraine's past leaders. IMHO the new political order will soon settle into the comfortable nepotism that has mediated the political elite (of whatever suasion) since the war.
The solution here lies not in a united Ukraine governed from Kiev but in a devolved system which allows the regions much more self government. Poroshenko has admitted that he cannot defeat the eastern Ukraine separatists by force. Putin simply will not allow this and his western allies will not risk further escalation of this conflict. That option is off the table.
The true issue is can the western oblasts be kept within Ukraine? I think this is possible but this option has been dealt a setback by the results of the recent elections. I have no doubt that the elections in the western oblasts will support separation. This conflict is very far from settled...
It's still not correct.
Keep editing
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It is now Mike ;D
That's what happens when you try to compose a post whilst trying to entertain a bored six year old girl.
My stupid mistake :laugh:
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You're pretty quick on the trigger with deleting posts..
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Leslied, I tend to agree with most of what you wrote upthread.
In Canada, we have province's, which to a degree are self governed.
Inside the bigger picture with the federal government.
Ukraine needs some such system, where each region has some level of control
over itself. Will it ever be perfect, not likely.
But a country as diverse as Ukraine is, makes sense to give each region more power.
That said as a country, Russia should have no say in which direction Ukraine wishes to go,
If Putin was only worried about the people, he could simply offer any who wish to go to Russia,
Citizenship, then those not happy with the direction of Ukraine, can leave.
All have choices, people dyeing should not be one of them.
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Leslied, I tend to agree with most of what you wrote upthread.
In Canada, we have province's, which to a degree are self governed.
Inside the bigger picture with the federal government.
Ukraine needs some such system, where each region has some level of control
over itself. Will it ever be perfect, not likely.
But a country as diverse as Ukraine is, makes sense to give each region more power.
That said as a country, Russia should have no say in which direction Ukraine wishes to go,
If Putin was only worried about the people, he could simply offer any who wish to go to Russia,
Citizenship, then those not happy with the direction of Ukraine, can leave.
All have choices, people dyeing should not be one of them.
NS --most modern government practice is to reduce the size of government and reduce the layers in the system.Ukraine does have a plan for regionalised administration--but that is not to say they should be autonomous-that is quite unnecesary.There are a lot of precedents on structure- and the big trick is not duplicating the people involved.
Whatever way it goes--only Ukraine should be making those decisions--it is zero to do with Russia. Ukraine is for Ukrainians-- of all languages .
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A cyberespionage campaign believed to be based in Russia has been targeting government leaders and institutions for nearly five years, according to researchers with iSight Partners who have examined code used in the attacks.
The campaign, dubbed “Sandworm” is believed to have been running since 2009, and used a wide-reaching zero-day exploit uncovered by the researchers that affects nearly every version of the Windows operating system released since Windows Vista.
Although iSight only has a small view of the number of victims targeted in the campaign, the victims include among others, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, Ukrainian and European Union governments, energy and telecommunications firms, defense companies, as well as at least one academic in the US who was singled out for his focus on Ukrainian issues. The attackers also targeted attendees of this year’s GlobSec conference, a high-level national security gathering that attracts foreign ministers and other top leaders from Europe and elsewhere each year.
It appears Sandworm is focused on nabbing documents and emails containing intelligence and diplomatic information about Ukraine, Russia and other topics of importance in the region. But it also attempts to steal SSL keys and code-signing certificates, which iSight says the attackers probably use to further their campaign and breach other systems.
The researchers dubbed the operation “Sandworm” because the attackers make multiple references to the science fiction series Dune in their code. Sandworms, in the Frank Herbert books, are desert creatures on the planet Arrakis who are worshipped as god-like entities.
iSight is not the first to spot the attackers in the wild. Other security firms, including F-Secure in Finland, have uncovered victims over the years. But iSight was able to tie various attacks together to expose commonalities in the five-year campaign. It was encoded references to Dune—which appear in URLs for the attackers’ command-and-control servers—that helped tie some of the attacks together. The URLs include base64 strings that when decoded translate to “arrakis02,” “houseatreides94,” and “epsiloneridani0,” among others.
“Some of the references were very obscure so whoever was writing the malware was a big Dune geek,” says John Hultquist, senior manager for iSight’s Cyber Espionage Threat Intelligence team.
The zero-day vulnerability used in some of the attacks was spotted in early September. The attackers use it to infect victims with malicious attachments, primarily PowerPoint files. iSight Partners has been working with Microsoft to fix the problem, a patch for which is being released today along with a report from the security firm about its findings.
The zero-day affects the way Windows handles PowerPoint files and allows the attackers to execute remote code on targeted systems. When a victim clicks on a malicious PowerPoint file, the exploit in the file installs a malicious executable that opens a backdoor onto the system.
“They’ve had a high degree of success in terms of infiltration based on the use of the zero day,” says Hultquist.
Some Sandworm attacks also use five older vulnerabilities that have already been patched. The exploits are used to install various versions of BlackEnergy, a malicious tool used by cybercriminals. The tool gained notoriety in 2008 when botnets infected with the malware were used to launch denial-of-service attacks against systems in Georgia during a standoff between that country and Russia.
Researchers at iSight say the use of conventional criminal malware has helped the attackers blend in with other operations and remain under the radar, since any victims who uncovered infections probably believed their computers had been infected for a botnet to be used by spammers.
The first variant of BlackEnergy was created by a Russian national named Oleksiuk Dmytro, with limited functionality as a DDoS tool. A subsequent variant included modules for stealing banking credentials, though Dmytro has always denied involvement in developing later versions of the tool. The Sandworm team appears to be using the malware to collect intelligence. The researchers say their use of BlackEnergy indicates a link between the attackers and the criminal underground, although their campaign is more sophisticated.
The researchers have found samples of the malware that are built to communicate through the internal proxy servers on a victim’s network. Many companies install proxies between internal systems and the Internet to protect those internal systems and enforce internet usage policies. Outgoing communication gets routed through the servers, which use private internal IP addresses that are not advertised to the outside world. The researchers found proxy addresses belonging to victim networks coded into the malware to allow them to exfiltrate stolen data to their command-and-control servers. The attackers had obviously done reconnaissance and knew the layout of the internal network to know how to get the stolen data out.
“Some people might think they’re run-of-the-mill criminals,” says Hultquist. “But they’re not going after credentials. They want knowledge that only a few people can use. That’s security-related information and diplomatic information and intelligence on NATO and Ukraine and Poland.”
Two details of Sandworm lead the iSight Partners to conclude it’s originating from Russia, possibly as a state-sponsored operation. First, files used for the command-and-control servers are written in Russian; and second, the victims targeted and the type of information used to lure them into clicking on malicious attachments focus on topics that would be of interest to Russia’s adversaries. One attachment purports to be a list of pro-Russia “terrorists” that the victim is invited to view.
Other victims have been targeted with emails purporting to provide information about military and intelligence operations directed against Russia. In 2013, NATO was targeted with a phishing document focused on European diplomacy, and a Polish energy firm was targeted with an attachment purporting to be about shale gas. Earlier this year, high-level government officials attending the GlobSec conference in Bratislava, Slovakia, were targeted with a malicious email purporting to come from conference organizers. Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Vitali Klitschko, former heavyweight boxing champion and a candidate for the post of mayor of Kiev, were scheduled to attend the conference but cancelled at the last minute.
A mere days after the Sandworm bug was discovered, a new zero-day that affects almost all versions of Windows has been found traipsing through the cyber-wild.
Like Sandworm, it also makes use of the Object Linking and Embedding (OLE) feature, which is a technology that allows applications to share data and functionality, such as the ability to create and edit compound data.
The vulnerability could allow remote-code execution if a user opens a specially crafted Microsoft Office file that contains an OLE object. An attacker who successfully exploited the vulnerability could gain the same user rights as a legitimate user—so those whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system could be less impacted than those who operate with, say, administrative user rights.
In a web-based attack scenario, an attacker could host a website that contains a webpage with a specially crafted Office file that is used to attempt to exploit this vulnerability. According to Microsoft, there are “limited, targeted attacks” going around that attempt to exploit the vulnerability through Microsoft PowerPoint.
Social engineering is the way for the attacker to execute, convincing users to visit the website by getting them to click a link within an email or instant message.
“We are actively working with partners in our Microsoft Active Protections Program (MAPP) to provide information that they can use to provide broader protections to customers,” Microsoft said in an advisory. “Upon completion of this investigation, Microsoft will take the appropriate action to help protect our customers. This may include providing a security update through our monthly release process or providing an out-of-cycle security update, depending on customer needs.”
There is one catch for the criminals: the attack requires user interaction beyond clicking an emailed link to succeed on Windows clients with a default configuration. User Account Control (UAC) is enabled in that case and will display a consent prompt or an elevation prompt, depending on the privileges of the current user, before a file containing the exploit is executed.
The news comes about a week after Microsoft patched a remote code execution zero day vulnerability linked to the Russian espionage group known as Sandworm. That bug was being used in spear-phishing attacks that used a weaponized PowerPoint attachment.
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The solution here lies not in a united Ukraine governed from Kiev but in a devolved system which allows the regions much more self government. Poroshenko has admitted that he cannot defeat the eastern Ukraine separatists by force. Putin simply will not allow this and his western allies will not risk further escalation of this conflict. That option is off the table.
A devolved system of government certainly isn't the Russian method of government. Any areas of Russia that show a desire for independence beyond that given by Moscow and that government is told to obey or else. If they defy the Kremlin the area is razed until they surrender, killing any independence minded groups and innocent civilians. For an example, think of Chechnya. Then a Kremlin friendly government is installed and life goes on.
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I can say that Ukraine will have gas, Ukraine will have heating...
... most likely... next year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/us-ukraine-crisis-imf-tranche-idUSKBN0IH12Z20141028
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AvHdB, As usual, I invite you to go and read what I wrote.
Look at what I was saying, the points I was making.
Did I write or even suggest that the people Chris mentioned were all excessive drinkers, no, that was raised by his wife who seems to have a lower opinion of the people Chris knows than I do. That's OK, there are good reasons why she wanted to escape from Ukraine to the UK and that's the worldview she needs to internalise and portray; I understand that and so too, I think, does Chris.
However, the points that I was making are valid and, unless the people Chris knows are even more doltish than his wife seems to think they are, should be well aware of these issues. Thus it seems odd indeed for them to not be recognised in normal conversation between normally socialised people aware of their environment.
If you want insight AvHdB then go read what I wrote, cast aside the narrative points if they are too difficult for your delicate sensibilities to handle and, as usual, ask questions about the stuff that you still don't understand.
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But Europe didn't invite them. They just think they did.
I am sure you corrected them. :-X
Before I answer this, do Brussels consult you, or do you consult Brussels on all things European? just curious as to why you think they need correcting on anything?
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Oh Andrew, you really are a lovely guy aren't you.
Chris, you probably missed, while eating all your meals, but Ukraine IS independent of Russia. You most certainly missed that this arrangement is MUCH better for Russia than a dependent Ukraine.
I eat usually three times a day, don't you? or are you that clever that you have found a way of staying alive without eating, perhaps so, you seem to spend so much time at your keyboard its probably a necessity! Yes its independent, but as we all know, Putin has other opinions, no matter what you wish us to believe.
What is confusing you, apart from the wine and vodka you were drinking at all those meals, is that Ukraine is (was) a very active trading partner of Russia's and vice versa. Some 20% of Ukraine's GDP is derived from what your dinner companions were selling to Russia.
You must have been with us to know what we were drinking, funny I didn't notice, and just so as you know, my dinner companions don't sell anything to Russia, they comprised of a surgeon, a GP, two university lecturers, an accountant, an area bank manager, a retired police officer, a United Nations military officer who had served in Kosova et al, so not your average potato digging village dweller that you automatically assume I associate with, as my wife stated, don't assume that we all associate with the likes that you do.
Chris it is the muddy thinking that you are showing in your, probably, misremembered and misreported recollections of your dinner conversations that causes a load of problems - don't worry, it isn't just you, plenty of others are doing the same - forgetting to think.
Typical Andrew waffle, not even worth the cyber ink in responding
You see, if you were to sit down and think for just a moment you'd KNOW that you were just writing twaddle. If you thought for a moment about your recollections you'd end up writing comments about how your dinner companions, who rely upon Russia for energy and for their incomes, are misunderstanding their own situation. You'd be telling us what a pity it was that they did not understand the difference between independence of the country and its dependence upon a network of trade and social connections.
You keep stating on this board that most others write twaddle, but you fail to realise that most of the twaddle eminates from Estonia, isn't that where you reside?
You'd probably note, given your long term association with your dinner companions, the odd way in which issues that less than a year ago were unimportant, trivial even, have become in an irrational manner so important.
If you and others gave these issues just a little thought then maybe you could have discussed some of this stuff with your dinner party neighbours over a decent after dinner brandy and maybe they might have been led to do some thinking too.
Sad, very sad. :'(
More Andrew Twaddle! with a capital 'T'
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Chris, you probably missed, while eating all your meals, but Ukraine IS independent of Russia. You most certainly missed that this arrangement is MUCH better for Russia than a dependent Ukraine.
There has been perfect clarity on the matter for the longest time.
What is confusing you, apart from the wine and vodka you were drinking at all those meals, is that Ukraine is (was) a very active trading partner of Russia's and vice versa. Some 20% of Ukraine's GDP is derived from what your dinner companions were selling to Russia.
Chris it is the muddy thinking that you are showing in your, probably, misremembered and misreported recollections of your dinner conversations that causes a load of problems - don't worry, it isn't just you, plenty of others are doing the same - forgetting to think.
You see, if you were to sit down and think for just a moment you'd KNOW that you were just writing twaddle. If you thought for a moment about your recollections you'd end up writing comments about how your dinner companions, who rely upon Russia for energy and for their incomes, are misunderstanding their own situation. You'd be telling us what a pity it was that they did not understand the difference between independence of the country and its dependence upon a network of trade and social connections.
You'd probably note, given your long term association with your dinner companions, the odd way in which issues that less than a year ago were unimportant, trivial even, have become in an irrational manner so important.
If you and others gave these issues just a little thought then maybe you could have discussed some of this stuff with your dinner party neighbours over a decent after dinner brandy and maybe they might have been led to do some thinking too.
Sad, very sad. :'(
It's a first time I am posting on this forum but as you were discussing my friends I thought I would reply. I understand that everyone speaks from their own experience, so I am really sorry that you are surrounded by heavy drinkers that have no better reasons to get together but only to get drunk and then talk about things they have no idea about.
I realise also that not all of us are lucky enough to have normal friends that are a pleasure to get together and talk about kids, our jobs, our parents and things we like and enjoy. You will be surprised some of us don't need a bottle to get together. But as you will not believe me any way, please just accept my sympathies for your poor and boring life.
Ira
(Chris wife)
ps no doubt he will have something to say when we get back home in a couple of days time, in the meantime we will be travelling.
Andrew, It is amazing you are the poster RUA prat. On the other side you can be quite insightful. Curious is it a dependency or inadequacy?
Chris shared his insights into a group of common citizens of what is Ukraine over a dinner. You managed in one post to diminish them. It is in fact typical to your style or lack of grace and understanding.
Give it a rest. Man up and try to stay on the positive side of the forum.
AV, that's an impossible task for Andrew, negativity and insulting of others is his strong points and he is damn good at it, even I admit that one :)
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Hi Ira, hope you and kids are well, good to hear from you tiphat
Hello Trevor
Yes all is great with us, thanks. I hear you have got married, my congratulation.
Ira
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Way to go Ira!
Hi Mike
We all have different politic views and opinions and I am absolutely fine with this. But my family and my friends, it's something that I will always protect, because they mean the world to me and are always there for me.
Ira
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That's OK, there are good reasons why she wanted to escape from Ukraine to the UK and that's the worldview she needs to internalise and portray; I understand that and so too, I think, does Chris.
Blimey, I will not sleep all night crying over my poor life now. I have to make a confession. I only had 3 decent meals before I met Chris and had 1 skirt, 1 dress and 1 pair of shoes. Of course when Chris promised to feed me 3 times a week I said yes with no hesitation.
He's is a very good man and keeps his promises - I had a meal yesterday and will have one tomorrow.
I am not sure if Chris mentioned this on a forum but he actually has got a medal for rescuing me from horrible Ukraine.
But it was not very nice to tell Chris that he does not understand that I am with him only for money - I hoped he will not realize this for at least couple more years so I can get another pair of shoes out of him.
Sometimes you feel like you can explain things to somebody but this case is terminal, there is no hope here.
Ira
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Thank You Ira,
That's generally a common trait that we all enjoy. :thumbsup:
I'll also do everything in my power to protect my family and friends in Ukraine as well as elsewhere.
I find it strange that others here deny that the terrorists are trying to bring Ukraine under the thumb of Russia one little bite at a time.
Edit; You've got a great sense of humor too!
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That's OK, there are good reasons why she wanted to escape from Ukraine to the UK and that's the worldview she needs to internalise and portray; I understand that and so too, I think, does Chris.
Blimey, I will not sleep all night crying over my poor life now. I have to make a confession. I only had 3 decent meals before I met Chris and had 1 skirt, 1 dress and 1 pair of shoes. Of course when Chris promised to feed me 3 times a week I said yes with no hesitation.
He's is a very good man and keeps his promises - I had a meal yesterday and will have one tomorrow.
I am not sure if Chris mentioned this on a forum but he actually has got a medal for rescuing me from horrible Ukraine.
But it was not very nice to tell Chris that he does not understand that I am with him only for money - I hoped he will not realize this for at least couple more years so I can get another pair of shoes out of him.
Sometimes you feel like you can explain things to somebody but this case is terminal, there is no hope here.
Ira
:laugh:
Chris is a generous fellow indeed. I'll bet some of those meals even have some scraps of meat in them, and even some cabbage or potato as well. You are extremely fortunate.
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That's OK, there are good reasons why she wanted to escape from Ukraine to the UK and that's the worldview she needs to internalise and portray; I understand that and so too, I think, does Chris.
Blimey, I will not sleep all night crying over my poor life now. I have to make a confession. I only had 3 decent meals before I met Chris and had 1 skirt, 1 dress and 1 pair of shoes. Of course when Chris promised to feed me 3 times a week I said yes with no hesitation.
He's is a very good man and keeps his promises - I had a meal yesterday and will have one tomorrow.
I am not sure if Chris mentioned this on a forum but he actually has got a medal for rescuing me from horrible Ukraine.
But it was not very nice to tell Chris that he does not understand that I am with him only for money - I hoped he will not realize this for at least couple more years so I can get another pair of shoes out of him.
Sometimes you feel like you can explain things to somebody but this case is terminal, there is no hope here.
Ira
:laugh:
Chris is a generous fellow indeed. I'll bet some of those meals even have some scraps of meat in them, and even some cabbage or potato as well. You are extremely fortunate.
Larry, I am so generous I took her for a fish and chip supper once, she stills retains the menu and mentions it quite often to all her friends in poor Ukraine to make them jealous :chuckle:
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That's OK, there are good reasons why she wanted to escape from Ukraine to the UK and that's the worldview she needs to internalise and portray; I understand that and so too, I think, does Chris.
Blimey, I will not sleep all night crying over my poor life now. I have to make a confession. I only had 3 decent meals before I met Chris and had 1 skirt, 1 dress and 1 pair of shoes. Of course when Chris promised to feed me 3 times a week I said yes with no hesitation.
He's is a very good man and keeps his promises - I had a meal yesterday and will have one tomorrow.
I am not sure if Chris mentioned this on a forum but he actually has got a medal for rescuing me from horrible Ukraine.
But it was not very nice to tell Chris that he does not understand that I am with him only for money - I hoped he will not realize this for at least couple more years so I can get another pair of shoes out of him.
Sometimes you feel like you can explain things to somebody but this case is terminal, there is no hope here.
Ira
:laugh:
Chris is a generous fellow indeed. I'll bet some of those meals even have some scraps of meat in them, and even some cabbage or potato as well. You are extremely fortunate.
Larry, I am so generous I took her for a fish and chip supper once, she stills retains the menu and mentions it quite often to all her friends in poor Ukraine to make them jealous :chuckle:
I have only two questions:
1. Did you guys take a photo of Ira with the plate of fish and chips so that your generosity would be documented?
2. Did you allow her to eat the entire order of fish and chips or did you two (or three, actually) split the dish? If it is the former then you are even more generous, and Ira even more fortunate, than I had supposed. tiphat
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I have only two questions:
1. Did you guys take a photo of Ira with the plate of fish and chips so that your generosity would be documented?
2. Did you allow her to eat the entire order of fish and chips or did you two (or three, actually) split the dish? If it is the former then you are even more generous, and Ira even more fortunate, than I had supposed. tiphat
Thanks for your interesting questions Larry.
1. Sorry no picture unfortunately, I should have realised that it might have come in handy sometime in the future, my bad!
2. Yes she ate the whole dish, but it was a kids portion I ordered for her, no point being too frivolous, but she really does appreciate me, of course she is still on her 7 year trial period, which is up in March BTW. :-X
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Good thing I am sitting in a chair with arms, I almost fell out, I think the computer survived the coffee, I spit out laughing so hard. :ROFL: Ira your humour is only outdone by your class.
Thank you for the congratulations. tiphat
Chris, you are a lucky man, I think you should splurge and buy new shoes a couple years earlier,
but please get photo's, better for making those poor folks in Ukraine jealous tiphat
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Thank You Ira,
That's generally a common trait that we all enjoy. :thumbsup:
I'll also do everything in my power to protect my family and friends in Ukraine as well as elsewhere.
I find it strange that others here deny that the terrorists are trying to bring Ukraine under the thumb of Russia one little bite at a time.
Edit; You've got a great sense of humor too!
There is no point to argue with people that have different point of view. All what we can do is support our families in Ukraine and help as much as we can. Hopefully things are turning to the better there. All these events helped to unite east and west in Ukraine. My father was from Vinnutska area ( central Ukraine ), so we have family there also. They never were pro Russian but were not very pro Ukrainian ether. But now they have changed their minds and are supporting a united Ukraine. I have a friend here in the UK from little town near Dnipropetrovsk. She speaks Russian ( which didn't stop us being friends :)) and was rather pro Russian much more so than pro Ukrainian. Even during last winter she ( and all her family back in Ukraine ) was against all the events on the Maydan and people wanting to move towards Europe rather than Russia. But now they are all more nationalistic then we in Western Ukraine ever were :) Having Russian 'brothers' with guns on your doorstep changes peoples views very quickly, people support a united Ukraine more than ever now.
Ira
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Good thing I am sitting in a chair with arms, I almost fell out, I think the computer survived the coffee, I spit out laughing so hard. :ROFL: Ira your humour is only outdone by your class.
Thank you for the congratulations. tiphat
Chris, you are a lucky man, I think you should splurge and buy new shoes a couple years earlier,
but please get photo's, better for making those poor folks in Ukraine jealous tiphat
Thank you :)
I bet Chris wishes I was less humorous from time to time, poor guy does not know whether he is coming or going with all my jokes :)
It definitely was worth posting on the forum, with you putting all these good ideas into Chris head, I may will even get boots, as its getting cold :)
Ira
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Good thing I am sitting in a chair with arms, I almost fell out, I think the computer survived the coffee, I spit out laughing so hard. :ROFL: Ira your humour is only outdone by your class.
Thank you for the congratulations. tiphat
Chris, you are a lucky man, I think you should splurge and buy new shoes a couple years earlier,
but please get photo's, better for making those poor folks in Ukraine jealous tiphat
Thank you :)
I bet Chris wishes I was less humorous from time to time, poor guy does not know whether he is coming or going with all my jokes :)
It definitely was worth posting on the forum, with you putting all these good ideas into Chris head, I may will even get boots, as its getting cold :)
Ira
Go for the boots, but don't lock him on new years please :chuckle:
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leslied ----Chris has no reason to lie about the views he encountered whilst in Ukraine. I do not doubt that the attitude of "lets all pull together for a united Ukraine" is a widely held viewpoint. However saying that you will "accept" Russian people into this grand design, but reject economic and social ties to their motherland is simply not acceptable to many ethnic Russians.
les, our family is in the east of ukraine , nowhere have we or them seen this type of view as underlined about rejecting economic or social ties with russia , they simply just wish to make their own decisions and control their countrys destiny more towards the EU than russia
doing so , does not and in my impression from discussions with them should not affect relatiions socialy or economically with russia ,
that is a myth russia is largely exaggerating to justify its illegal actions
putin had choices of how he could have ukraine in a relationship that would keep them with russia
he could become an attractive ally and trading partner to deepen the existing ties between both countrys or he could use force to keep them ,
he chose the tried and true method he knows best , that has worked before ''fear'' &''force ''
They never were pro Russian but were not very pro Ukrainian ether. But now they have changed their minds and are supporting a united Ukraine. I have a friend here in the UK from little town near Dnipropetrovsk. She speaks Russian ( which didn't stop us being friends ) and was rather pro Russian much more so than pro Ukrainian. Even during last winter she ( and all her family back in Ukraine ) was against all the events on the Maydan and people wanting to move towards Europe rather than Russia. But now they are all more nationalistic then we in Western Ukraine ever were Having Russian 'brothers' with guns on your doorstep changes peoples views very quickly, people support a united Ukraine more than ever now.
this also reflects the change in view not only with my wife , but our family in ukraine as well since dec last year
SX
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According to this article, there is a gas deal (again):
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/30/us-ukraine-crisis-gas-idUSKBN0II0XQ20141030
The previously "agreed-upon" price of $385 has changed, the amount of Ukrainian debt has mysteriously shrunken by 2.2 billion and no mention was made that Ukraine has agreed to a 1.6 billion prepayment. Maybe it's just crappy reporting. We'll see.
The deal is a bit confusing. The basic rate is still $385 and the other rates that are talked about concern a discount program. I believe it depends on how much Ukraine buys.
The debt payment remains repaying recent debt, whatever that is since these figures seem to change depending on who is talking.
The real fun starts when Stockholm decides on the 6+ Billion that Ukraine claims they were overcharged unfairly/illegally (whatever) since 2010.
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[quote author=AkMike link=topic=20984.msg384291#msg384291
There is no point to argue with people that have different point of view. All what we can do is support our families in Ukraine and help as much as we can. Hopefully things are turning to the better there. All these events helped to unite east and west in Ukraine. My father was from Vinnutska area ( central Ukraine ), so we have family there also. They never were pro Russian but were not very pro Ukrainian ether. But now they have changed their minds and are supporting a united Ukraine. I have a friend here in the UK from little town near Dnipropetrovsk. She speaks Russian ( which didn't stop us being friends :)) and was rather pro Russian much more so than pro Ukrainian. Even during last winter she ( and all her family back in Ukraine ) was against all the events on the Maydan and people wanting to move towards Europe rather than Russia. But now they are all more nationalistic then we in Western Ukraine ever were :) Having Russian 'brothers' with guns on your doorstep changes peoples views very quickly, people support a united Ukraine more than ever now.
Ira
First off-- welcome and nice to see your comments-it is not so easy for me to post comments on forum.
Over the last year I have spent a lot of time in Ukraine-- not in western Ukraine. In previous years I have also been in Ukraine quite often( despite some of the ignorant wanting to attempt to discredit me as lying about that!!).
What you comment above on your friends changing views is very typical of what I have seen.It is not isolated-- absolutely widespread.
It is such an important point that I have repeatedly made on the forums--those who persist in stating views from yesteryear are simply not understanding the huge shift in Ukrainians views in the last year.
Upthread-- some try to paint this as a western Ukrainian phenomena--that is 100% incorrect.All over Ukraine a fierce sense of Ukrainian independence has developed-- and the idea of rejecting Russian interference goes with that.
The other comment I need to make is this--even those that considered themselves Russian by ethnicity -- are now proud Ukrainians- and fiercely anti-Putin.The out of step comments about anti-Russian sentiment etc is simply misguided- it is a trumped up issue of Kremlin propaganda.
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putin had choices of how he could have ukraine in a relationship that would keep them with russia
he could become an attractive ally and trading partner to deepen the existing ties between both countrys
Bad memory? He did that already, deals were done, but when it didn't suit the US/EU, a coup d'etat was rapidly arranged, the elected president illegally removed and a junta installed. That was somewhat of a game changer.
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Bagalia, there's no 'fun'.
The Russians do not want that the people of Ukraine don't have heating and hot water over winter. They have bent over backward to accommodate the kleptocracy to attain that goal. The problem is that if they let the kleptocracy repudiate their debt then Gazprom can no longer be a credible supplier or party to a contract.
Ukraine has been making silly claims that there is no debt. By virtue of paying off at least some of the debt they acknowledge that there is a debt. That is important.
In those terms the forthcoming mediation is not too important. If it goes against Ukraine then Ukraine still will not pay, they have spent the money already and have no chance of paying from their own resources.
If it goes against Russia which, if the case is dealt with dispassionately, it will not then Russia will have received another signal and, as part of the larger picture, that will likely signal Russia calling in loans to Ukraine on the basis of debt having exceeded the trigger level for that process to begin. Ukraine has already passed the level at which this course opens up and, of course Ukraine can not pay up. At the same time, expect the Russian to give its agreement to Russian banks moving out of the Ukraine market. At the moment the Russian government has encouraged Russian banks to remain active in Ukraine where they form almost 40% of the Ukraine banking sector. Withdrawal is a sensible commercial choice but would devastate Ukraine's finance sector.
That is something of a financial neutron bomb. The effects would be to remove liquidity from Ukraine, make it impossible for businesses to function and leave the costs with the EU and US.
All that noted, I am sure that Russia and the government do not want that to happen. I am also sure that the heads of state in Europe and north America are aware of the timetable for such action.
=========================
Chris, there's nothing to persuade here. Why do you imagine there is. The only questions that struck me was where on earth did you leave your head when your dinner companions were so busy making silly noises, why did you uncritically represent their silly noises as fact here and why does your wife have such a low opinion of her family?
I am sure that what you told us is, in some sectors of society a true report. You as a sentient human know that what you heard presented as fact was untrue and the emotional content manufactured and unhelpful.
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Well there you go you poor poor country!! you are going to get your gas now, so you will be all warm and cosy thanks to the IMF
Well as usual you lot could not even sort your own sheet out and have to be helped by the western world the last 20 years of grovelling and begging seems to carrying on in its same old sweet way with this new Junta
Good luck all who sail in the broken ship
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It is rather amusing to hear the Ukrainians (as reported by our resident experts who don't even speak the language (:)) talk about Putin this, or Putin that in such a negative way. Not that the Ukrainian viewpoint of Putin was so positive before all that has happened, happened.
What is I guess the norm for people these days, yet so 'funny' is their lack of personal blame or responsibility in all the mess that is Ukraine.
So, go ahead and blame Putin for your mess Ukraine. He's an easy fall guy all things considered, and act as if everything would have been great if Putin was totally out of the picture.
Let's forget how Ukraine got to this point. Let's forget that Ukraine is a mafia state, but unlike its mafia state counterpart, has lacked anyone like Gaidar, Chubais, or Kudrin to implement any kind of fiscal responsibility within its borders, or anyone like Putin to control the Oligarchs.
Yes, let's blame Putin. How convenient a scapegoat for the shit hole Ukraine is, and always remember, Ukrainians had nothing to do with it. Keep up the good work as I see a tremendous future ahead because who knew all this time, had it not been for Putin, Ukraine would have been a bastion of democracy and transparency and as such the epitome of a well run country.
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It is rather amusing to hear the Ukrainians (as reported by our resident experts who don't even speak the language (:)) talk about Putin this, or Putin that in such a negative way. Not that the Ukrainian viewpoint of Putin was so positive before all that has happened, happened.
What is I guess the norm for people these days, yet so 'funny' is their lack of personal blame or responsibility in all the mess that is Ukraine.
So, go ahead and blame Putin for your mess Ukraine. He's an easy fall guy all things considered, and act as if everything would have been great if Putin was totally out of the picture.
Let's forget how Ukraine got to this point. Let's forget that Ukraine is a mafia state, but unlike its mafia state counterpart, has lacked anyone like Gaidar, Chubais, or Kudrin to implement any kind of fiscal responsibility within its borders, or anyone like Putin to control the Oligarchs.
Yes, let's blame Putin. How convenient a scapegoat for the shit hole Ukraine is, and always remember, Ukrainians had nothing to do with it. Keep up the good work as I see tremendous future ahead because who knew all this time, had it not been for Putin, Ukraine would have been a bastion of democracy and transparency and as such the epitome of a well run country.
Dan you are totaly right there was no problem in Ukraine its because of Crimea and the east, you see its those crazies that have made the country like this in the last year.
I repeat this paradise had absolutely no problems before all this happened it was peace a serenity, we must remember we are all wrong nothing was broken :chuckle: :chuckle: :)
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Well there you go you poor poor country!! you are going to get your gas now, so you will be all warm and cosy thanks to the IMF
Well as usual you lot could not even sort your own sheet out and have to be helped by the western world the last 20 years of grovelling and begging seems to carrying on in its same old sweet way with this new Junta
Good luck all who sail in the broken ship
Yes, isn't it terrible! Those nasty thieving, dishonest Ukrainians: pensioners, children and the sick are going to be warm this winter; what a tragedy. (:)
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Well there you go you poor poor country!! you are going to get your gas now, so you will be all warm and cosy thanks to the IMF
Well as usual you lot could not even sort your own sheet out and have to be helped by the western world the last 20 years of grovelling and begging seems to carrying on in its same old sweet way with this new Junta
Good luck all who sail in the broken ship
Yes, isn't it terrible! Those nasty thieving, dishonest Ukrainians: pensioners, children and the sick are going to be warm this winter; what a tragedy. (:)
Yes but you fail to realise where the money originally came from....Europe is already keeping Ukraine warm.....and to that end Ukraine must be classed as the same as Greece
Living on Benefits (:)
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Well there you go you poor poor country!! you are going to get your gas now, so you will be all warm and cosy thanks to the IMF
Well as usual you lot could not even sort your own sheet out and have to be helped by the western world the last 20 years of grovelling and begging seems to carrying on in its same old sweet way with this new Junta
Good luck all who sail in the broken ship
Yes, isn't it terrible! Those nasty thieving, dishonest Ukrainians: pensioners, children and the sick are going to be warm this winter; what a tragedy. (:)
Yes but you fail to realise where the money originally came from....Europe is already keeping Ukraine warm.....and to that end Ukraine must be classed as the same as Greece
Living on Benefits (:)
No, I know realize exactly where the money is coming from. Yes, the country is being bailed out, and what? Years of corruption has guaranteed the need for this, there is no secret there; however, that was not my point. The palpable disappointment that a deal has been brokered and the lack of empathy to common people was. :-X
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Well there you go you poor poor country!! you are going to get your gas now, so you will be all warm and cosy thanks to the IMF
Well as usual you lot could not even sort your own sheet out and have to be helped by the western world the last 20 years of grovelling and begging seems to carrying on in its same old sweet way with this new Junta
Good luck all who sail in the broken ship
Sparky, don't let the Dan's and [derogatory term removed]s corrupt your moral fibre. The embedded corruption is a learned trait from Soviet times, it will take decades to rub out. Had the Kremlin taken a page from the British empire it would of left us with a normal society, instead they left a bunch of failed countries, and again we see a power hungry twerp changing rules to remain in power. I know I know, his popularity right now is at 80% according to polls, but that will all change if the people start having difficulties.
Canada and America give BILLIONS in dollars of aid to a bunch of human causes and countries throughout the world, what's you point? Let them freeze so they will know who big daddy is? So they know not to fuk with Russia? I'm sure someone here can tell me how many Billions Canada and America have forgiven in dropping the debt of money we have loaned as well in the past.
Had the past UA president not fled for comfort and protection in Russia with billions of dollars stolen during his term, that gas bill could be a smaller amount.
The new UA prez was elected by UA citizens except those in the Russian occupied areas, and they want to move towards a more normal way of life, they're tired of Russia's heavy hand casting a shadow over their country.
Maybe you pro Russian Europeans should look at this situation with an open mind, and not let the wives berate you into thinking that Putin's actions are that of a proper leader.
Stop being so pussy whipped for fuksakes! :hidechair: :chuckle:
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The embedded corruption is a learned trait from Soviet times, it will take decades to rub out.
Instead of taking personal responsibility for their actions, the corrupt *snip*s can place the blame on long-dead communists, right?
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They're showing a common trait with their family. Notably their big brother to the north that's invading them ATM.
The problem is that they wish to leave the family toward a self determined future, sans corruption, not the subservient one that big brother wants.
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The deal is a bit confusing. The basic rate is still $385 and the other rates that are talked about concern a discount program. I believe it depends on how much Ukraine buys.
The debt payment remains repaying recent debt, whatever that is since these figures seem to change depending on who is talking.
The real fun starts when Stockholm decides on the 6+ Billion that Ukraine claims they were overcharged unfairly/illegally (whatever) since 2010.
Bill moved the discussion of the gas deal here:
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21871.msg384340#msg384340
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Well there you go you poor poor country!! you are going to get your gas now, so you will be all warm and cosy thanks to the IMF
Well as usual you lot could not even sort your own sheet out and have to be helped by the western world the last 20 years of grovelling and begging seems to carrying on in its same old sweet way with this new Junta
Good luck all who sail in the broken ship
Sparky, don't let the Dan's and [derogatory term removed]s corrupt your moral fibre. The embedded corruption is a learned trait from Soviet times, it will take decades to rub out. Had the Kremlin taken a page from the British empire it would of left us with a normal society, instead they left a bunch of failed countries, and again we see a power hungry twerp changing rules to remain in power. I know I know, his popularity right now is at 80% according to polls, but that will all change if the people start having difficulties.
Canada and America give BILLIONS in dollars of aid to a bunch of human causes and countries throughout the world, what's you point? Let them freeze so they will know who big daddy is? So they know not to fuk with Russia? I'm sure someone here can tell me how many Billions Canada and America have forgiven in dropping the debt of money we have loaned as well in the past.
Had the past UA president not fled for comfort and protection in Russia with billions of dollars stolen during his term, that gas bill could be a smaller amount.
The new UA prez was elected by UA citizens except those in the Russian occupied areas, and they want to move towards a more normal way of life, they're tired of Russia's heavy hand casting a shadow over their country.
Maybe you pro Russian Europeans should look at this situation with an open mind, and not let the wives berate you into thinking that Putin's actions are that of a proper leader.
Stop being so pussy whipped for fuksakes! :hidechair: :chuckle:
You see Don you need to stop saving all on the planet and in the seas!!!
I don't give a monkeys nut to what happened with the last corrupt leader of Ukraine he is just another statistic in a long line of failed leadership now with Povertyshenko in charge why not have him and his fellow oligarchs put their hand in their pockets, and save their own people. and as for the last one he should be brought to justice in the same way, have you read he is under armed guard due to the numerous threats on his life maybe they should remove the guards!
No here we go yet another drain on the world finances aka Europe and their not even bloody members of the EU
Dont start the holy thow are great look at the money we give in the world we do exactly the same, now can someone come up the figures that tell us how much Ukraine has ever given to anyone other than the corrupt leadership?
And look at the size of us (uk) compared to you and the yanks we still give aid around the world too
Yes i feel sorry for all those people that are suffering and yes i see it daily.
But charity starts at home the trouble is Ukraine just wimpers and crys and does not help its own, now dont give me poor Ukraine sheet
How about some austerity measures in Ukraine raise the gas price raise the utilities price and start to drag screening their economy to work or shall we all just sit there and wait for external help they need to start work for their country..stop the bullshit start producing
So Don while the rest of Europe has dealt with Austerity measures and starts to see results, then lets see how Ukraine deals with its own Economy and what measures it puts in place to build this hallowed ground you praise so much
Then you can start crying out we are harsh but that my View as a citizen of the EU
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Wow the Pro Russian group are out in :censored: force today.
Sad to see people here act in this way. Ukraine's issues are 20+ years old, yes it is their own fault,
mostly because they decided to stay close to Russia and not go their own way, like many of the other former FSU countries.
Sparky, Canada is half as many people, with 5 times the land and we give billions also.
Some to a hellva lot worse off paces than Ukraine.
Tom, we already know how you feel about the people of Ukraine, you made it perfectly clear.
At least your man enough to write it in the forum :chuckle:
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http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-soldiers-government-were-coming-next-155843129.html
Ukraine soldiers to government: we're coming for you next...
Dnipropetrovsk (Ukraine) (AFP) - Vitaliy Feshchenko, one of thousands of Ukrainian volunteers fighting pro-Russian rebels, has this message for government leaders back in the capital Kiev: his battle-hardened men might come for them next.
And this is why.
A peaceful, pro-democracy protest in 2004 on Kiev's Maidan Square toppled Russian-backed president Viktor Yanukovych, but led only to bitter disappointment and Yanukovych's return. So this February, huge crowds once more braved the cold and riot police on Maidan to topple the government and demand reform -- and now their greatest fear is being let down yet again.
"There won't be a third Maidan if that happens," Feshchenko, 38, said in the frenetic headquarters of the Dnipro-1 volunteer militia in Dnipropetrovsk, in eastern Ukraine, where he is deputy commander. "There'll be a military takeover."
It might be hard to imagine how Ukraine, nearly bankrupt and being steadily dismembered by Russian troops and heavily armed pro-Russian separatists, could get more chaotic. Angry veterans heading to Kiev would accomplish that.
"We're going to give them half a year to show the country has somehow changed, that even if it's hard, there's light ahead," Yuriy Bereza, Dnipro-1's popular commander, told AFP.
Asked what would happen should that deadline pass, another paramilitary member at headquarters, a tall man in civilian clothing with a pistol strapped to his side, didn't hesitate.
"A coup," he said.
- VOLUNTEERS TO THE RESCUE -
When Russian troops swarmed into Ukraine's southern region Crimea in March, Ukrainians dizzy with the success of the latest street revolution in Kiev were caught flat-footed. Their country of 45 million people, it turned out, barely had an army -- no more than 6,000 combat ready troops, according to the then defence minister.
That's when thousands of civilians, in large part activists from the Maidan, began joining hastily thrown together battalions funded by everything from oligarchs to grassroots charities.
Crimea, where entire bases of regular Ukrainian troops surrendered without a shot, was already lost, but a new crisis erupted in the industrial east, where separatists closely linked to Russia were taking over strings of towns.
Deploying alongside Ukraine's regular army, the sometimes barely trained, but enthusiastic volunteers helped stem the tide, forcing separatists into today's stalemate.
Military analyst Sergiy Zgurets said the regular army had weapons, but low morale, while the volunteers "had high fighting spirit, but, temporarily, a lack of equipment."
"The volunteer battalions did their task," Bereza, the Dnipro-1 commander, said. "They halted the aggressors. They stopped a second Crimea."
Maidan self-defence activists sit on an armoured vehicle in front of the parliament in central Kiev …
- GUNS AND MONEY -
Dnipro-1's headquarters are on the ground floor of the Dnipropetrovsk administration building. Upstairs sits the regional governor, Igor Kolomoisky.
The arrangement is no accident: Kolomoisky, one of Ukraine's most controversial billionaires, funds the paramilitary, which returns the favour in these troubled times by boosting the banking and industrial tycoon's personal security and political clout.
All the signs are of a flourishing military enterprise.
Young men with Kalashnikovs and pistols and several well dressed women working on laptops fill the anteroom to Bereza's office.
Inside, maps, aerial photos and a picture depicting Adolf Hitler as a father figure to a child-sized Russian President Vladimir Putin line the walls. Ammunition boxes lie in the corner. On Bereza's desk: three mobile phones, a laptop, the Ukrainian flag, and an icon of the Virgin Mary.
The commander repeatedly breaks off an interview with AFP to take calls, sign papers, or approve the purchase of a fleet of new pick-up trucks that will serve as machine-gun platforms.
When a young woman comes in to complain about difficulties in booking a theatre for a Dnipro-1 benefit concert, Bereza dials the theatre manager and yells for a full minute, before gently asking: "So, is there a problem? No. I didn't think so."
The woman leaves happy.
The interior ministry, which oversees the paramilitaries, was quoted saying in September that there are now 34 such groupings and Zgurets estimates that the country's total of combat ready troops now tops 50,000 men.
Although the army retains control over heavy weaponry, the motivated -- and increasingly well equipped and skilled -- volunteer groups remain crucial.
Dnipro-1 members have been in several of the biggest battles in the seven-month conflict, which has killed more than 3,700 people, including at the fierce, continuing standoff around Donetsk airport.
"It's not so easy for Russia now," said Bereza, who like most Ukrainians believes they are up against an undeclared Russian invasion, not just local separatists. "We were demoralised in the summer, but now we have a lot more experience."
Dnipro-1 has 700 men -- "officially," Bereza says with an enigmatic smile.
"Unofficially, it's 7,000."
- DARK SIDE -
Questions over the far right leanings of some volunteer groups and allegations of involvement in the murder of civilians cast a long shadow.
One of the most controversial is the Azov Battalion, which uses the Wolfsangel insignia -- an ancient design that was resurrected in Hitler's Germany. The Azov has been linked to Oleg Lyashko, a politician accused of neo-Nazi sympathies.
Right Sector, an ultra-nationalist party, also has its own battalion of several hundred men on the frontlines, even if the government refuses to register or pay them.
Dasha Slutskovska, a 29-year-old volunteer from the battalion in Dnipropetrovsk, conceded that Right Sector has an image problem -- they are relentlessly portrayed in Russia's state-controlled media as fascists. But she insisted her comrades only want the Maidan goals of ending corruption and steering Ukraine into Europe.
"Nationalists does not mean Nazis. We're just normal people," she said, adding with a laugh: "Well, maybe a bit more radical."
- BETRAYAL AND PAYBACK -
Amid Ukraine's increasingly feverish patriotism, Putin is seen as bordering on the diabolical.
"It's sadomasochism," Svyatoslav Oliynyk, deputy to the Dnipropetrovsk governor Kolomoisky, said of Kremlin policy.
"Putin is mad, a schizophrenic," Bereza said. "If we don't stop them here, Russian tanks will go all the way to Berlin."
But among the volunteer battalions there is almost equal hatred for the corrupt bureaucrats running their country and the military top brass responsible for bloody fiascos like the massacre of troops retreating from Ilovaisk in August.
Which is why if the government doesn't act quickly on those promises to rebuild Ukraine, today's battle might move to the capital, where the revolution began.
"The people who were in the war won't accept any sliding back," Oliynyk says.
Slutskovska's eyes shone with anger in Right Sector's dingy Dnipropetrosk office, when asked how she would react to failure of reforms.
"We'll just go straight there with weapons," she said. "There'll be a coup."
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putin had choices of how he could have ukraine in a relationship that would keep them with russia
he could become an attractive ally and trading partner to deepen the existing ties between both countrys
Bad memory? He did that already, deals were done, but when it didn't suit the US/EU, a coup d'etat was rapidly arranged, the elected president illegally removed and a junta installed. That was somewhat of a game changer.
Piece of advice : the moment an educated person hears the word "junta" concerning Ukraine - they are likely to label the speaker an idiot. What happened in Ukraine was not the installation of a "junta".
"Junta" = Russian talking point.
It is exactly the same kind of "talking point" that the Democrats tried to use, during Clinton's impeachment - that it was "all about sex" - when the real issue was that he perjured himself before the court, misused his public office, etc.
Intelligent people are smart enough, to avoid being misled by "talking points" put out by either side. Why do you continue to slavishly use this phrase?
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putin had choices of how he could have ukraine in a relationship that would keep them with russia
he could become an attractive ally and trading partner to deepen the existing ties between both countrys
Bad memory? He did that already, deals were done, but when it didn't suit the US/EU, a coup d'etat was rapidly arranged, the elected president illegally removed and a junta installed. That was somewhat of a game changer.
Piece of advice : the moment an educated person hears the word "junta" concerning Ukraine - they are likely to label the speaker an idiot. What happened in Ukraine was not the installation of a "junta".
It is exactly the same kind of "talking point" that the Democrats tried to use, during Clinton's impeachment - that it was "all about sex" - when the real issue was that he perjured himself before the court, misused his public office, etc.
Intelligent people are smart enough, to avoid being misled by "talking points" put out by either side.
I agree.
Play on words here is used often. Instead of speaking directly to the issue, many feel the need to
throw expressions or words that hopefully improve on their point.
Most can see through this and realize the posters is mudding the water to hopeful help their point.
Lack of confidence in what they are trying to say.
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Piece of advice : the moment an educated person hears the word "junta" concerning Ukraine - they are likely to label the speaker an idiot. What happened in Ukraine was not the installation of a "junta".
It absolutely was by any definition.
It is exactly the same kind of "talking point" that the Democrats tried to use, during Clinton's impeachment - that it was "all about sex" - when the real issue was that he perjured himself before the court, misused his public office, etc.
Powerful guy got blowjob from female member of staff. Happens every day. Big news. (:)
Not at all the same.
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Piece of advice : the moment an educated person hears the word "junta" concerning Ukraine - they are likely to label the speaker an idiot. What happened in Ukraine was not the installation of a "junta".
It absolutely was by any definition.
It is exactly the same kind of "talking point" that the Democrats tried to use, during Clinton's impeachment - that it was "all about sex" - when the real issue was that he perjured himself before the court, misused his public office, etc.
Powerful guy got blowjob from female member of staff. Happens every day. Big news. (:)
Not at all the same.
I don't expect you to be up on American politics - but lying under oath, was the issue; and people do go to jail for it in the USA, same as in UK.
If you can't understand that, your other politicial views might not be all that coherent either.
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Who knew that when Russia gives the EU a liberally needed enema Putin will start with the Danes???
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1054666-world-war-3-news-russia-simulated-an-attack-on-90000-people-in-denmark/
One would have thought Lvov or perhaps Tallinn, or Londonistan Lyonistan, and Schipolistan/Den Haagistan ... just saying :popcorn:
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Piece of advice : the moment an educated person hears the word "junta" concerning Ukraine - they are likely to label the speaker an idiot. What happened in Ukraine was not the installation of a "junta".
It absolutely was by any definition.
It is exactly the same kind of "talking point" that the Democrats tried to use, during Clinton's impeachment - that it was "all about sex" - when the real issue was that he perjured himself before the court, misused his public office, etc.
Powerful guy got blowjob from female member of staff. Happens every day. Big news. (:)
Not at all the same.
I don't expect you to be up on American politics - but lying under oath, was the issue; and people do go to jail for it in the USA, same as in UK.
If you can't understand that, your other politicial views might not be all that coherent either.
Of course I get that, don't be daft. I think the issue itself was overdone over there. If you look at Italy or France, cavorting with the junior staff is widespread in politics. Seldom do they lose their job over it.
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Who knew that when Russia gives the EU a liberally needed enema Putin will start with the Danes???
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1054666-world-war-3-news-russia-simulated-an-attack-on-90000-people-in-denmark/
One would have thought Lvov or perhaps Tallinn, or Londonistan Lyonistan, and Schipolistan/Den Haagistan ... just saying :popcorn:
When we were travelling back from Ukraine on Wednesday this week, all flights were delayed and we had to have new flights booked (3) to get home, we just managed to get something that worked, this (http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/7408-rossiyskie-samolyoty-mogli-repetirovat-yadernyy-udar-smi) could be the reason.
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Our media is dripping with anti-Russian rhetoric each day. Much of it from America (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2625378/MATTHEW-BARZUN-America-NOT-stand-idly-Putin-cronies-destroy-peace-Europe.html).
you have new russia today, for uk. does your bbc have access to free sector of russian tv ? koneshno, net
nasty mr putin stole the city of my birth - kerch - with his ''local defense forces'' and stopped my government from freeing occupied cities in the donbass from the rule of kremlin imposed thugs who lock people in cellars and shoot down planes using missilesystems from kursk airborne division
suggest -if you can read russian - to try memorial or eko moscow as you may be reading watching too much kremlin stories.
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Fück Putin - lol - I love it!
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Fück Putin - lol - I love it!
I love Putin? What happened - u changed it?
lol!
Maybe try YaNenavizhuVova?
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Fück Putin - lol - I love it!
I love Putin? What happened - u changed it?
lol!
Maybe try YaNenavizhuVova?
I doubt she changed it Ste.
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Fück Putin - lol - I love it!
I love Putin? What happened - u changed it?
lol!
Maybe try YaNenavizhuVova?
I doubt she changed it Ste.
Maybe ironically?
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http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-soldiers-government-were-coming-next-155843129.html
Ukraine soldiers to government: we're coming for you next...
sad to say there are people in my country who now hate russians when the blame is
with a few men in the kremlin
I do not hate russians. only feel sorry for those who believe all they read watch on media run by kremlin or oligarchs fiends of Vova Putin
worse is westerners who do not know ukraine - married to russian - who think their wives will make mouth love for supporting kremlin thieves
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http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-soldiers-government-were-coming-next-155843129.html
Ukraine soldiers to government: we're coming for you next...
sad to say there are people in my country who now hate russians when the blame is
with a few men in the kremlin
I do not hate russians. only feel sorry for those who believe all they read watch on media run by kremlin or oligarchs fiends of Vova Putin
worse is westerners who do not know ukraine - married to russian - who think their wives will make mouth love for supporting kremlin thieves
My partner and her family have no love for Dyadya Vova, they are Russian so you are not alone.
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http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-soldiers-government-were-coming-next-155843129.html
Ukraine soldiers to government: we're coming for you next...
sad to say there are people in my country who now hate russians when the blame is
with a few men in the kremlin
I do not hate russians. only feel sorry for those who believe all they read watch on media run by kremlin or oligarchs fiends of Vova Putin
worse is westerners who do not know ukraine - married to russian - who think their wives will make mouth love for supporting kremlin thieves
I sense a little tension in your posts, maybe a good sleep and wake up with a clear mind may be in order :'(
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The embedded corruption is a learned trait from Soviet times, it will take decades to rub out.
Instead of taking personal responsibility for their actions, the corrupt *snip*s can place the blame on long-dead communists, right?
When government policy is to remove greed from the system it will always fail due to humans naturally being greedy. Those who have control will take advantage of the situation if it means having a higher standard of living. They do because those before them did successfully.
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So Don while the rest of Europe has dealt with Austerity measures and starts to see results, then lets see how Ukraine deals with its own Economy and what measures it puts in place to build this hallowed ground you praise so much
Then you can start crying out we are harsh but that my View as a citizen of the EU
Yes but you don't see anything wrong with Russia taking Crimea, and trying to take parts of eastern Ukraine either. Basically your position is that you like Russia, and if the leader takes land by force, that's just fine. Well its not.
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So Don while the rest of Europe has dealt with Austerity measures and starts to see results, then lets see how Ukraine deals with its own Economy and what measures it puts in place to build this hallowed ground you praise so much
Then you can start crying out we are harsh but that my View as a citizen of the EU
Yes but you don't see anything wrong with Russia taking Crimea, and trying to take parts of eastern Ukraine either. Basically your position is that you like Russia, and if the leader takes land by force, that's just fine. Well its not.
Don stop crying in your soup.
It had only been in the possession of Ukraine for a relatively short while, and as such i don't see many of the actual people that live there wanting it to go back to being part of Ukraine.
I await the public outcry from within Krim that they want back to mother Ukraine.
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So Don while the rest of Europe has dealt with Austerity measures and starts to see results, then lets see how Ukraine deals with its own Economy and what measures it puts in place to build this hallowed ground you praise so much
Then you can start crying out we are harsh but that my View as a citizen of the EU
Yes but you don't see anything wrong with Russia taking Crimea, and trying to take parts of eastern Ukraine either. Basically your position is that you like Russia, and if the leader takes land by force, that's just fine. Well its not.
Don stop crying in your soup.
It had only been in the possession of Ukraine for a relatively short while, and as such i don't see many of the actual people that live there wanting it to go back to being part of Ukraine.
I await the public outcry from within Krim that they want back to mother Ukraine.
So you have been and seen, asked around a little eh?
Or are you just believing what the media feeds you?
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RT soup is the main fare for them Trev..
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So Don while the rest of Europe has dealt with Austerity measures and starts to see results, then lets see how Ukraine deals with its own Economy and what measures it puts in place to build this hallowed ground you praise so much
Then you can start crying out we are harsh but that my View as a citizen of the EU
Yes but you don't see anything wrong with Russia taking Crimea, and trying to take parts of eastern Ukraine either. Basically your position is that you like Russia, and if the leader takes land by force, that's just fine. Well its not.
Don stop crying in your soup.
It had only been in the possession of Ukraine for a relatively short while, and as such i don't see many of the actual people that live there wanting it to go back to being part of Ukraine.
I await the public outcry from within Krim that they want back to mother Ukraine.
So you have been and seen, asked around a little eh?
Or are you just believing what the media feeds you?
Yes i have been in August, stayed with some friends and came home, it from this i make my judgement.
You see here we have both world in fact all 3 we get western news via satelite and then Russian tv and living so close to the border we get Kiev and Ukranian chanels aswel via sputnik
So we read/ listen from many channels :coffeeread:
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RT soup is the main fare for them Trev..
never watched it we dont get it in Russia :chuckle:
And with Russian satellite in the UK we dont need to watch that even
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Seems, that damn Russian media, is stepping out of line again,
Remember kids, you can't say anything bad about Russia or Putin :)
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3186186-russias-top-radio-station-slapped-government.html#.1258-stage-subhero1-1
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Gee, This is a shocker! (:)
Russian 'food convoy' truck overturns in Donetsk, revealing ammunition
A truck belonging to the so-called Russian humanitarian convoy overturned in Donetsk. It was carrying combat ammunition, a local journalist, Oleksy Matsuka, writes in Twitter Nov. 2, Ukrayinska Pravda reports.
The Russians deny any inspection by Ukraine border guards, customs officials and Red Cross of their alleged food convoys.
On their way back to Russia, the truck carry the bodies of killed Russian soldiers, equipment stolen from Donbas plants, even sun-flower seeds and coal, eyewitnesses say.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/11/02/russian_food_convoy_truck_overturns_in_donetsk_revealing_ammunition_537039
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Gee, This is a shocker! (:)
Russian 'food convoy' truck overturns in Donetsk, revealing ammunition
A truck belonging to the so-called Russian humanitarian convoy overturned in Donetsk. It was carrying combat ammunition, a local journalist, Oleksy Matsuka, writes in Twitter Nov. 2, Ukrayinska Pravda reports.
The Russians deny any inspection by Ukraine border guards, customs officials and Red Cross of their alleged food convoys.
On their way back to Russia, the truck carry the bodies of killed Russian soldiers, equipment stolen from Donbas plants, even sun-flower seeds and coal, eyewitnesses say.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/11/02/russian_food_convoy_truck_overturns_in_donetsk_revealing_ammunition_537039
I cant find the original tweet or a photo. When news is reported from Twitter, they usually embed the tweet. If it was made up, there would be no tweet or photo of course.
How did you verify this Mike?
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The original tweet is here:
https://twitter.com/alexmazuka/status/528886359575257088
No photo though, so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
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I'll just toss out numbers and articles like Andrew so I know everyone will believe them... :biggrin: :biggrin:
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The original tweet is here:
https://twitter.com/alexmazuka/status/528886359575257088
No photo though, so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
He doesn't mention it was an aid convoy truck there. He only refers to a Kamaz.
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AKMike, I don't 'toss out numbers' so that people like you will believe them. I use numbers because they aid in providing objective support for a point of view.
People who are numerate (not the majority of people in the English speaking west) understand how numbers paint a picture, how numbers enable relationships between facts and ideas to be formed and described and how numbers are not 'kinda something'.
But, yes, in using numeric descriptions and illustrations I also understand that quite a few readers simply won't understand - those unknowers who say such silly things as 'you can make statistics say anything' or 'that can't be right because they didn't ask me'. Are you one of those people?
When somebody shares a numeric description with you it is giving you the chance to evaluate for yourself mattes such as the significance of an issue- how serious is ebola in the US, for example. It gives you the chance to think for yourself.
Of course, if you are unable to deal in issues in a numerate fashion then you probably think this is scary, just like it always is when somebody tries to get you think about anything.
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Since you replied so soon after my mentioning your name Andrew, here another reminder incase you post was directed at me. If not Oh Well..
« Reply #89 on: Today at 11:12:12 AM »
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
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The original tweet is here:
https://twitter.com/alexmazuka/status/528886359575257088
No photo though, so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Might be related to this.
http://news.yahoo.com/separatist-elections-troop-movements-rattle-ukraine-153127855.html
Kiev's military also claimed it had detected "intensive" movement of troops and equipment "from the territory of the Russian Federation".
The reported deployments, which would constitute a major escalation of Russian involvement, could not be verified.
AFP journalists in rebel-controlled Donetsk saw a column of about 20 trucks, some carrying heavy anti-aircraft guns, heading in the direction of the government-held airport, although there was a notable drop in fighting during the polling.
Other Western news outlets reported seeing much larger columns of unmarked military trucks and weaponry on roads in the separatist area.
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
She was watching the news ( Russian)
But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
Normally I don't post what she tells me because of it, I just found it quite funny
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
She was watching the news ( Russian)
But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
Normally I don't post what she tells me because of it, I just found it quite funny
This may be the story. If so, this article says it was the decision of the cafe owners to rename their drinks:
Amid U.S. criticism of Moscow's meddling in Ukraine, some patriotic coffee vendors in Crimea have decided to rebrand the popular Americano coffee drink to the more politically appropriate Rossiano or Crimean.
One coffee shop in the Crimean capital of Simferopol put up a sign saying it would no longer be serving Caffe Americanos "in connection with the unstable geopolitical situation" and advised customers to instead ask for a "Krymsky" (Crimean) coffee, local news site 0652 reported.
Meanwhile, in the Black Sea resort of Koktebel, a coffee vending machine tag for Caffe Americano has been replaced with a handwritten label for "Rossiano," Komsomolskaya Pravda reported.
An Americano — or now Rossiano, for those in Crimea — is espresso diluted with hot water, a style that aims accommodate the American preference for drip coffee.
The name changes prompted a series of jokes on Russia's social networks, with some Twitter users quipping that Johnnie Walker whiskey should be rebranded as "Ivan Runner" and that fast-food vendors should replace the Cyrillic transliteration of hot dog with a Russian phrase meaning "warmed-up mongrel."
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/crimean-political-correctness-turns-caffe-americano-into-cafe-rossiano/510855.html
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
She was watching the news ( Russian)
But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
Normally I don't post what she tells me because of it, I just found it quite funny
Larry found the story, nobody was being FORCED as you suggested. And it seems it did not come from the government.
See how the internet is? People make stuff up or misunderstand based on hearsay, and others try to pass it along as fact. Told enough times, it becomes an accepted "truth".
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
She was watching the news ( Russian)
But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
Normally I don't post what she tells me because of it, I just found it quite funny
Larry found the story, nobody was being FORCED as you suggested. And it seems it did not come from the government.
See how the internet is? People make stuff up or misunderstand based on hearsay, and others try to pass it along as fact. Told enough times, it becomes an accepted "truth".
If you read my original post :) I said she was watching the news.
So blame the Russian news for the mix up, not the internet.
I was told not long ago, english is a tricky language until you get the hang of it :chuckle:
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The girl I write from lugansk told me the Russian army is back in the Ukraine. I was told no way because some American 10,000 miles away said he did not see any signs this was happening. More signs this war is getting ready to heat up again.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/11/thousands-of-putin-s-troops-now-in-ukraine-analysts-say.html#
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
I seem to remember something about "French" fries a while back.
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Leaders of Ukraine's Jewish community have come out strongly in support of the Kiev government in its conflict with Russia, rejecting Moscow's accusations that their country is now a hotbed of anti-Semitism.
Mr Putin's advisers "might have confused Ukraine with Russia where Jewish organisations registered a rise of anti-Semitism last year", it added.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29991777
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Here is a tally of how many seats each party holds after the recent parliamentary election. The list is formatted better at the link below.
POLITICAL PARTY (BLOC)
NUMBER OF SEATS
Poroshenko's bloc
132
People's Front
82
Samopomich (Self Help)
33
Opposition bloc
29
Radical Party
22
Batkivshchyna (Fatherland)
19
Svoboda
6
Other parties
4
Independent
94
TOTAL
421
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraines-parliamentary-election-results-t--glance/511016.html
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The girl I write from lugansk told me the Russian army is back in the Ukraine. I was told no way because some American 10,000 miles away said he did not see any signs this was happening. More signs this war is getting ready to heat up again.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/11/thousands-of-putin-s-troops-now-in-ukraine-analysts-say.html#
There is no point in the United States that is 10,000 miles from Lugansk.
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Larry, you may be confused by the number of 'independents' because those may not be what you think they are.
If you are interested try to find a list of names of those 'independents' and then compare them to lists of nazi sympathisers or 'extreme nationalists'. In fact others have already done so - hit up your favourite search engine and have fun.
In the last Rada the 'independent' bloc was actually the largest group in the parliament (128) but what often happens is that candidates stand as independents with a view to getting elected on the basis of simple majority rather than by appearing on a party list where the chance of getting selected for office is dependent upon the performance of a party overall. Thus you will find extremists elected as independents without them ever having officially declared a party affiliation. As they form the swing vote they are actually very powerful.
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... But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
No one called your wife a liar, no one implied that she was a liar and I doubt that anyone was even thinking about calling her a liar. More than likely, people assumed that you got the story completely screwed up. Why anyone (except Justin) would solicit insults for his wife is beyond me.
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You will have to watch this screwed up story to the end to get the point. In the last couple of weeks what was left of the city of Lugansk has nearly cleared out accourding to this story. Very few people left.
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... But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
No one called your wife a liar, no one implied that she was a liar and I doubt that anyone was even thinking about calling her a liar. More than likely, people assumed that you got the story completely screwed up. Why anyone (except Justin) would solicit insults for his wife is beyond me.
Your right, they never said the words.
I never solicited anything.
My mistake, I will leave my wife's comments off this forum, so no future misunderstandings will happen.
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NS1, you were definately wrong, nobody even implied your wife was a liar. your wife was being ridiculed. in the future please have your wife on shorter leash :o
Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
... But hey it may never happen, but some one can call her a liar, would not be first time here.
No one called your wife a liar, no one implied that she was a liar and I doubt that anyone was even thinking about calling her a liar. More than likely, people assumed that you got the story completely screwed up. Why anyone (except Justin) would solicit insults for his wife is beyond me.
Your right, they never said the words.
I never solicited anything.
My mistake, I will leave my wife's comments off this forum, so no future misunderstandings will happen.
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... your wife was being ridiculed...
I didn't read it that way. Perhaps you meant something different than you wrote.
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... your wife was being ridiculed...
I didn't read it that way. Perhaps you meant something different than you wrote.
How could you ever tell?
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Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
I seem to remember something about "French" fries a while back.
Those are Freedom Fries you heathen....:-)))
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NS1, you were definately wrong, nobody even implied your wife was a liar. your wife was being ridiculed. in the future please have your wife on shorter leash :o
Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
No.
He presented his understanding of something he was told. He may or may not have injected the word "forced" himself.
As it goes, he was wrong.
He countered with his wife saw it on the news.
Were that he case, and force was in play, the new rule would be documented. Thus he was asked that she might find a link.
She cant because there isn't one. He chose the words to use that misrepresented the facts. That he cant admit that means he got bent out of shape.
Nobody insulted or ridiculed anybody. The reality is Russia is not forcing any coffee shop to do any such thing as he said.
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... your wife was being ridiculed...
I didn't read it that way. Perhaps you meant something different than you wrote.
How could you ever tell?
Kentucky windage...
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Being wrong isn't particularly remarkable but being wrong about something so ludicrous that no reasonable person would believe it is remarkable. When someone, who complains that others can't admit when they are wrong, does so himself, and about something that is ludicrous, that is absolutely sublime.
I read an article about dragon eggs hatching in Russia and, when they are full-grown, Putin is going to use them to burn down K'yiv. :ROFL:
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NS1, you were definately wrong, nobody even implied your wife was a liar. your wife was being ridiculed. in the future please have your wife on shorter leash :o
Putin has really lost his mind, I think a little paranoid :)
Wife was watching the news tonight and she said,
Russian government
is forcing coffee shops to remove the name Americana Coffee for choices,
It must be replaced with россияно :laugh:
Isn't it normal to remove negative influences?
But maybe your wife will find us a link to this presidential decree? Something that shows us that these places, as you said, are being FORCED to do this. Russian media will be fine.
No.
He presented his understanding of something he was told. He may or may not have injected the word "forced" himself.
As it goes, he was wrong.
He countered with his wife saw it on the news.
Were that he case, and force was in play, the new rule would be documented. Thus he was asked that she might find a link.
She cant because there isn't one. He chose the words to use that misrepresented the facts. That he cant admit that means he got bent out of shape.
Nobody insulted or ridiculed anybody. The reality is Russia is not forcing any coffee shop to do any such thing as he said.
Manny go take a look, before writing a long post again, I stated she saw it on the news in first post, you asked for a link ( not realistic eh?)
I thought it was funny is why I posted it, not anything ground breaking, now my wife and I are full of shit for something she told me was on the news, Later I did clarify that she was watching a Russian news channel.
No fear, it has happen a few times, it won't again. I will make sure not to use any of the wife's real life experience or
conversations with friends in Ukraine or Russia.
Nobody here wants that :)
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Manny go take a look, before writing a long post again, I stated she saw it on the news in first post, you asked for a link ( not realistic eh?)
She may have seen something similar on the news, but did she use the word "forced" in the context of the Russian government? If she did, she misunderstood. I think you attached the extra words for gravitas.
Of course a link in relation to a news item is realistic. If the news reports Putin got married again, one might expect to go the Kremlin website and find a link from the source with details. Not rocket science is it?
In your case there was no link because the story was misrepresented. I struggle to see why you find this hard to grasp.
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Manny go take a look, before writing a long post again, I stated she saw it on the news in first post, you asked for a link ( not realistic eh?)
She may have seen something similar on the news, but did she use the word "forced" in the context of the Russian government? If she did, she misunderstood. I think you attached the extra words for gravitas.
Of course a link in relation to a news item is realistic. If the news reports Putin got married again, one might expect to go the Kremlin website and find a link from the source with details. No rocket science is it?
In your case there was no link because the story was misrepresented. I struggle to see why you find this hard to grasp.
So let me understand this, If tonight I am watching the news, I should not post unless, I go to some official site, look up the story and find a link that I can attach?
she was " watching the news" and now you are telling me what she saw, :censored: priceless.
In the story she told me, they said Russian government was forcing coffee shops to change the name.
That is what I wrote, please stop assuming, maybe try asking.
the part I added was, this is funny, Putin is losing it.
Now as it was, turned out it was incorrect, If you like I will ask her what channel, you can call them and bitch to them about the inaccuracy of the story, hows that? As I said, no fear, I won't post anything she tells me, After all she is from Ukraine, you don't want any of that info here anyway, don't fit your agenda:)
Question, so let me understand all posts now, not accompanied by a link and to be 100% true, should be not be written? that should slow down the Mods work, as that would about 95% of what is written here :chuckle:
Or os that just if it is something about your sacred Russia? :censored:
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Speaking of links...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/oil-may-drop-to--50-a-barrel--211726433.html
$50 a barrel oil Good for UA bad for RU... Down to $75 for WTI in USA... every dollar a barrel drop is a huge boost to the USA economy not to mention UK (BP) as well...
http://blogs.barrons.com/emergingmarketsdaily/2014/11/13/russia-ruble-in-crisis-as-oil-drops-more-sanctions-loom/
Of course the majority of EU surrender monkeys are not pulling their weight as usual:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/grave-threat-the-nato-alliance-its-not-russias-military-11661
Even as NATO adopts a confrontational policy toward Moscow reminiscent of the chilliest days of the Cold War, the Alliance faces multiple internal problems. Doubts remain about whether members are willing to match their strong rhetoric regarding Russia and other security challenges with substantive upgrades to their military capabilities. In the aftermath of the Kremlin’s annexation of Crimea and its continued support for secessionists in eastern Ukraine, promises of greater efforts surged, especially from Poland and the Baltic republics—the countries most at risk if Russia turns aggressively expansionist. But we’ve heard such promises before. At the 2006 NATO summit, all members pledged to devote at least 2 percent of their gross domestic product to defense. Eight years later, only the United States, Britain, Greece and Estonia among the twenty-eight member states fulfill that commitment. There is scant evidence that the new round of paper promises will fare any better.
So there you have it NATO is in fact a free loaders alliance on the backs of the USA and UK - no wonder UK wants out of EU... Moscow and Beijing are RAOTFLTAO :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Belarus official: Ukraine war may push us to West
Belarus wants to strengthen its economic ties to the West and could even help it bypass Russia's ban on some Western foods by reprocessing EU products.
http://news.yahoo.com/belarus-official-ukraine-war-may-push-us-west-152455338.html
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Not everyone believes their are no Russians in Ukraine. You will need to translate the page of read Russian.
http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/458126/
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"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
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"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
"Get off my lawn." - Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino
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"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
"Get off my lawn." - Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino
Great Clint Eastwood character, third after the man with no name in the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns and Dirty Harry Callahan.
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So let me understand this, If tonight I am watching the news, I should not post unless, I go to some official site, look up the story and find a link that I can attach?
The problem is not that you didn't post a link; it's that you believed a ridiculous story, didn't have the sense to know how ridiculous that it was, presented it as fact and used it as a basis for stating that Putin had really lost his mind.
-
:dh:
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So let me understand this, If tonight I am watching the news, I should not post unless, I go to some official site, look up the story and find a link that I can attach?
The problem is not that you didn't post a link; it's that you believed a ridiculous story, didn't have the sense to know how ridiculous that it was, presented it as fact and used it as a basis for stating that Putin had really lost his mind.
Well IMO he has lost his mind, considering recent events. The story seems to be true Tom, the fact
the Russian government did not order it was wrong. Considering some of the laws they have passed of late, even if they had it would not be a big shock. Thats not the point.
The point is, I took something my wife heard, posted it and received direct abuse for doing so,
also so did she ( she should have posted a link) really we were on Skype. ( she was watching TV)
What it shows me is Pro Russian fanatics here are so bent on anything anti Russian, they can't come back hard or fast enough. There is many things that could be posted as fact based on being and seeing, but here without pics or links, it will be debunked, Many here have quoted their wives over the years and
it was received well and respected, those days are gone unless of course your wife is pro Russian :)
You want to understand the problems of the site, this would be part of it, any person not pro Russian is treated as if the enemy, regardless of what the topic, sad it is coming to this.
-
"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
"Get off my lawn." - Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino
Great Clint Eastwood character, third after the man with no name in the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns and Dirty Harry Callahan.
Just my opinion Clint Eastwoods best role was in Beguiled. It is the only film that he ever dies in. I also have enjoyed High Plains Drifter.
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So let me understand this, If tonight I am watching the news, I should not post unless, I go to some official site, look up the story and find a link that I can attach?
The problem is not that you didn't post a link; it's that you believed a ridiculous story, didn't have the sense to know how ridiculous that it was, presented it as fact and used it as a basis for stating that Putin had really lost his mind.
Well IMO he has lost his mind, considering recent events. The story seems to be true Tom, the fact
the Russian government did not order it was wrong. Considering some of the laws they have passed of late, even if they had it would not be a big shock. Thats not the point.
The point is, I took something my wife heard, posted it and received direct abuse for doing so,
also so did she ( she should have posted a link) really we were on Skype. ( she was watching TV)
What it shows me is Pro Russian fanatics here are so bent on anything anti Russian, they can't come back hard or fast enough. There is many things that could be posted as fact based on being and seeing, but here without pics or links, it will be debunked, Many here have quoted their wives over the years and
it was received well and respected, those days are gone unless of course your wife is pro Russian :)
You want to understand the problems of the site, this would be part of it, any person not pro Russian is treated as if the enemy, regardless of what the topic, sad it is coming to this.
Why are you becoming hysterical?
There was no "direct abuse". You do seem to have this chip on your shoulder that everyone is constantly "insulting" you, and now your wife. When in fact it isnt the case. Look how the Justin person howls similarly that Tom once insulted his wife when he did no such thing. This is becoming just like that.
You posted something incorrect, got corrected, the end. Why we need all these amateur dramatics for days after, god knows. Wind your neck back in.
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"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
"Get off my lawn." - Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino
Great Clint Eastwood character, third after the man with no name in the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns and Dirty Harry Callahan.
Just my opinion Clint Eastwoods best role was in Beguiled. It is the only film that he ever dies in. I also have enjoyed High Plains Drifter.
-
So let me understand this, If tonight I am watching the news, I should not post unless, I go to some official site, look up the story and find a link that I can attach?
The problem is not that you didn't post a link; it's that you believed a ridiculous story, didn't have the sense to know how ridiculous that it was, presented it as fact and used it as a basis for stating that Putin had really lost his mind.
Well IMO he has lost his mind, considering recent events. The story seems to be true Tom, the fact
the Russian government did not order it was wrong. Considering some of the laws they have passed of late, even if they had it would not be a big shock. Thats not the point.
The point is, I took something my wife heard, posted it and received direct abuse for doing so,
also so did she ( she should have posted a link) really we were on Skype. ( she was watching TV)
What it shows me is Pro Russian fanatics here are so bent on anything anti Russian, they can't come back hard or fast enough. There is many things that could be posted as fact based on being and seeing, but here without pics or links, it will be debunked, Many here have quoted their wives over the years and
it was received well and respected, those days are gone unless of course your wife is pro Russian :)
You want to understand the problems of the site, this would be part of it, any person not pro Russian is treated as if the enemy, regardless of what the topic, sad it is coming to this.
Why are you becoming hysterical?
There was no "direct abuse". You do seem to have this chip on your shoulder that everyone is constantly "insulting" you, and now your wife. When in fact it isnt the case. Look how the Justin person howls similarly that Tom once insulted his wife when he did no such thing. This is becoming just like that.
You posted something incorrect, got corrected, the end. Why we need all these amateur dramatics for days after, god knows. Wind your neck back in.
I am not hysterical, I am pissed off. Your the one giving the back handed comments about my English, when on more than a few occasions, I have stated the obvious ( you do it for affect)
That would be you being dramatic! Then when you make a mistake in reading comprehension ( 3 times)
Thats no problem. When you or Tom posts anything that refers to respective wives it is treated with respect, even if not agreed with. I or my wife don't deserve the same?
Something to think about.
When this is dropped, I will leave it alone and future comments my wife has also, so there will be no confusion. :)
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So let me understand this, If tonight I am watching the news, I should not post unless, I go to some official site, look up the story and find a link that I can attach?
The problem is not that you didn't post a link; it's that you believed a ridiculous story, didn't have the sense to know how ridiculous that it was, presented it as fact and used it as a basis for stating that Putin had really lost his mind.
Well IMO he has lost his mind, considering recent events. The story seems to be true Tom, the fact
the Russian government did not order it was wrong. Considering some of the laws they have passed of late, even if they had it would not be a big shock. Thats not the point.
The point is, I took something my wife heard, posted it and received direct abuse for doing so,
also so did she ( she should have posted a link) really we were on Skype. ( she was watching TV)
What it shows me is Pro Russian fanatics here are so bent on anything anti Russian, they can't come back hard or fast enough. There is many things that could be posted as fact based on being and seeing, but here without pics or links, it will be debunked, Many here have quoted their wives over the years and
it was received well and respected, those days are gone unless of course your wife is pro Russian :)
You want to understand the problems of the site, this would be part of it, any person not pro Russian is treated as if the enemy, regardless of what the topic, sad it is coming to this.
Why are you becoming hysterical?
There was no "direct abuse". You do seem to have this chip on your shoulder that everyone is constantly "insulting" you, and now your wife. When in fact it isnt the case. Look how the Justin person howls similarly that Tom once insulted his wife when he did no such thing. This is becoming just like that.
You posted something incorrect, got corrected, the end. Why we need all these amateur dramatics for days after, god knows. Wind your neck back in.
I am not hysterical, I am pissed off. Your the one giving the back handed comments about my English, when on more than a few occasions, I have stated the obvious ( you do it for affect)
That would be you being dramatic! Then when you make a mistake in reading comprehension ( 3 times)
Thats no problem. When you or Tom posts anything that refers to respective wives it is treated with respect, even if not agreed with. I or my wife don't deserve the same?
Something to think about.
When this is dropped, I will leave it alone and future comments my wife has also, so there will be no confusion. :)
I think you can consider it dropped. The confusion is simply too great to continue the discussion. It is an aporia.
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Belarus official: Ukraine war may push us to West
Belarus wants to strengthen its economic ties to the West and could even help it bypass Russia's ban on some Western foods by reprocessing EU products.
http://news.yahoo.com/belarus-official-ukraine-war-may-push-us-west-152455338.html
The part not clear from the title is Belorus was told to open up lines of communication for European logistics .... Russia needs to import some items regardless of boycott status.
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Don't know if this has been posted, there are so many threads about the Russia-Ukraine conflict, but Russia is demanding guarantees that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO. Russia has called for "a 100% guarantee that no-one would think about Ukraine joining Nato", President Vladimir Putin's spokesman has told the BBC.
Why would Russia be allowed to dictate what organizations Ukraine could join? Should the Americans be allowed to demand that Russia not join any trade or economic organizations with China because it would not be in America's interest?
What Russia doesn't seem to understand is that former republics of the USSR and countries under the Soviets sphere of influence wanted to get as far away politically and economically from any type of Russian influence. That's why these countries joined the EU and NATO, they wanted protection from Russia.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30107520
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The Iron curtain needs to reinstalled at the RU/UA border. We need tanks and thousands of them lining the border, with nuke missiles and their titanium tips glistening in the break of early dawn reflecting a blazing ray of freedom light to the onion tops of Red Square!!!!!!!!!!
[attachimg=1]
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Leaders of Ukraine's Jewish community have come out strongly in support of the Kiev government in its conflict with Russia, rejecting Moscow's accusations that their country is now a hotbed of anti-Semitism.
Mr Putin's advisers "might have confused Ukraine with Russia where Jewish organisations registered a rise of anti-Semitism last year", it added.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29991777
mhr7, sorry for the late reply, but i just read this post... Interesting (and thanks for sharing the link), but i was quite surprised by the statement as it actually contradicts the previous statements of leaders of the local Jewish community, who speak on its behalf (and were chosen to do so by the community vs this guy being self-appointed.)
Guy's fb page is public, it can be looked up and it's very confusing because the updates contradict each other; one is pro-Russian, the next pro-Ukrainian... Then in the comments, a friend of his writes "кончай базар" - "stop the circus" and asks whom he supports on this very day ( and the answer is a joke.) All of it screams of one guy's self-promotion, not a credible source.
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mhr7, sorry for the late reply, but i just read this post... Interesting (and thanks for sharing the link), but i was quite surprised by the statement as it actually contradicts the previous statements of leaders of the local Jewish community, who speak on its behalf (and were chosen to do so by the community vs this guy being self-appointed.)
Guy's fb page is public, it can be looked up and it's very confusing because the updates contradict each other; one is pro-Russian, the next pro-Ukrainian... Then in the comments, a friend of his writes "кончай базар" - "stop the circus" and asks whom he supports on this very day ( and the answer is a joke.) All of it screams of one guy's self-promotion, not a credible source.
Yes there is allot of self promotion about.
Welcome to the quandary that is Russia and Ukraine and there love~hate relationship.
But so you know sometimes it is hard to see the forest as there are so many trees around us.
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"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
"Get off my lawn." - Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino
Great Clint Eastwood character, third after the man with no name in the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns and Dirty Harry Callahan.
Just my opinion Clint Eastwoods best role was in Beguiled. It is the only film that he ever dies in. I also have enjoyed High Plains Drifter.
He died in Gran Turino.
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mhr7, sorry for the late reply, but i just read this post... Interesting (and thanks for sharing the link), but i was quite surprised by the statement as it actually contradicts the previous statements of leaders of the local Jewish community, who speak on its behalf (and were chosen to do so by the community vs this guy being self-appointed.)
Guy's fb page is public, it can be looked up and it's very confusing because the updates contradict each other; one is pro-Russian, the next pro-Ukrainian... Then in the comments, a friend of his writes "кончай базар" - "stop the circus" and asks whom he supports on this very day ( and the answer is a joke.) All of it screams of one guy's self-promotion, not a credible source.
Yes there is allot of self promotion about.
Welcome to the quandary that is Russia and Ukraine and there love~hate relationship.
But so you know sometimes it is hard to see the forest as there are so many trees around us.
Thanks for the welcome, Av... Sadly, i do feel at home in such a quandary (:)
I read your reply and it got me thinking, indeed i can see the same pattern there (their love~hate relationship), like many had here. Weren't there real people life's in question, it would be interesting to analyze why is it so often that neighboring nations, who have a lot in common, why they develop such dynamics? (And i think that unsolved territorial questions are consequence of that, not the motive.)
Ok, sorry for the Freudian off top, let us continue the regular programming :popcorn:
p.s. as per the guy from the original post, i felt prompted to reply because methinks that Jewish community there has enough challenges, without some attention-seeker adding oil to the fire (:)
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"All who have taken it upon themselves to rule over others have incurred hatred and unpopularity for a time; but if one has a great aim to pursue, this burden of envy must be accepted, and it is wise to accept it." - Pericles
"Get off my lawn." - Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino
Great Clint Eastwood character, third after the man with no name in the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns and Dirty Harry Callahan.
Just my opinion Clint Eastwoods best role was in Beguiled. It is the only film that he ever dies in. I also have enjoyed High Plains Drifter.
He died in Gran Turino.
:bow: Me bad - was great acting in Gran Turino
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority. Somehow I doubt Putin will be happy to hear this. Why would Ukraine want to join the EU and NATO when they can join a Russian led trade union and rely on Russia for military protection from NATO? :laugh:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/biden-talks-ukraine-leaders-toll-rises-east-033632486.html#UOPWpM3
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
Would you care to share your source of this? I don't recall seeing that at NATO's site.
Or is this more forum fluff?
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
The truly thinking man can link these 2 into thinking that they really meant to say: We're making a priority of ending the rebellion in the east.
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
Would you care to share your source of this? I don't recall seeing that at NATO's site.
Or is this more forum fluff?
Fluff comes from you fella, not me. Lets look at what they need:
Willingness to settle international, ethnic or external territorial disputes by peaceful means, commitment to the rule of law and human rights, and democratic control of armed forces
:chuckle: I doubt genocide and Nazi flags qualify one for that.
Ability to contribute to the organization's defence and missions
No money.
Devotion of sufficient resources to armed forces to be able to meet the commitments of membership
Rag tag army and no money.
Security of sensitive information, and safeguards ensuring it
Sensitive information available to anyone for a price due to endemic corruption.
Compatibility of domestic legislation with NATO cooperation
Domestic legislation? Hardly. Cant even pay its bank depositors, gas bills or pensioners.
Like I said, western media fluff. Next you will tell us they are about to join the EU. The media recycle this crapola every couple of weeks. Do keep up. :Zzzzsleep:
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
Would you care to share your source of this? I don't recall seeing that at NATO's site.
Or is this more forum fluff?
http://www.state.gov/1997-2001-NOPDFS/regions/eur/fs_members.html
And thats just the requirements for the USA to say yes.... I can't really see Ukraine making that list except maybe "being a good neighbour"
And according to nato itself:
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm
Ukraine hasn't sought membership since 2010, meaning that they never formally applied, despite their claims in the press.
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
Which is why Putin is supporting the rebels he doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. Of course Ukraine wants to join NATO because Putin is violating Ukraine's sovereignty.
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
Which is why Putin is supporting the rebels he doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. Of course Ukraine wants to join NATO because Putin is violating Ukraine's sovereignty.
No Westy. Putin isn't doing anything very much. Ethnic Russians don't want to be part of an EU/US puppet state or part of America's proxy war on Russia. Why there are now two shiny new republics that held elections and Ukraine has stopped funding social services. They threw in the towel. Those regions are gone. All they need to do now is draw and secure the borders, get stuff working again before continuing the struggle in the direction of Crimea. That may take a year or two though.
If you read here, and can read past all the western propaganda that you some others blindly spout, it isn't terribly difficult to pick out what is going on and what comes next.
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
Mike you need to learn to read. I am not sure which part of "territorial disputes by peaceful means" you didn't grasp. Hint: Bombing schools with little kids in them while America cheers is NOT peaceful means. We call those actions war crimes.
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
Bombing schools with little kids in them while America cheers.
You are screwed in the head if you think, for one moment, America is cheering the shelling of schools...regardless of which side actually did it.
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
Bombing schools with little kids in them while America cheers.
You are screwed in the head if you think, for one moment, America is cheering the shelling of schools...regardless of which side actually did it.
The people probably not, but the government indeed. Your government - among others - supports the action that is knowingly bombing schools and hospitals. You cannot get away from that fact. Your politicians stood in Ukraine supporting these people, your government poured $5bn into it, your elected representatives support what is happening. And whether you like it or not, what is happening is schools with kids in them, hospitals with sick people in them, and the homes of innocent pensioners are being bombed to dust with the support of America and some of the EU.
Your country supported and helped fund a coup d'etat. That is a fact you cannot escape from. And your country's support of terrorism and arming of radicals is not limited to Ukraine. It happens continuously across the word and has done so for decades.
I am surprised you never noticed that. I doubt your news reports it very often. As you are reading this, your government is killing people somewhere in the world. Be a proud American. You will forgive me if I cannot celebrate that world terrorism.
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The Ukrainian government announced today that they are making joining NATO a priority.
Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes. Just more media fluff.
Which is why Putin is supporting the rebels he doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. Of course Ukraine wants to join NATO because Putin is violating Ukraine's sovereignty.
No Westy. Putin isn't doing anything very much. Ethnic Russians don't want to be part of an EU/US puppet state or part of America's proxy war on Russia.
Ethnic Ukrainians don't want to be part of a Russian puppet state's war on Ukrainians. There are more ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine than ethnic Russians.
Why there are now two shiny new republics that held elections and Ukraine has stopped funding social services.
Even Russia says it does not recognize the results of those elections. This is from Pravda so it is about as 'official' as it gets, without coming from Putin's mouth.
http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/07-11-2014/128981-russia_elections_donetsk_Lugansk-0/#.VG_CsMm9Yfw
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/11/08/russia-uses-semantics-to-walk-back-recognition-of-donbass-elections-before-g20-summit/
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Even Russia says it does not recognize the results of those elections. This is from Pravda so it is about as 'official' as it gets, without coming from Putin's mouth.
You may want to Google some more: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92cff6aa-633f-11e4-9a79-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3JkR2Hdb9
By stopping paying pensions, Ukraine has thrown in the towel. Those regions have gone. There was never any doubt they would so so.
Ethnic Ukrainians don't want to be part of a Russian puppet state's war on Ukrainians. There are more ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine than ethnic Russians.
Do you have a plastic flower in your lapel that squirts water? Dont be a clown. Russia has no issue with Ukrainians. They are the same peoples. How is Russia a puppet state? Tell us which nation is the puppet master? Nobody pulls Russia's strings. Westy, stop writing silly words for the sake of it and wasting e-ink. I know you don't grasp this stuff, but read some more and you may have at least half a clue before putting your foot in it again. Its becoming an embarrassing habit of yours.
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
Bombing schools with little kids in them while America cheers.
You are screwed in the head if you think, for one moment, America is cheering the shelling of schools...regardless of which side actually did it.
The people probably not, but the government indeed. Your government - among others - supports the action that is knowingly bombing schools and hospitals. You cannot get away from that fact. Your politicians stood in Ukraine supporting these people, your government poured $5bn into it, your elected representatives support what is happening. And whether you like it or not, what is happening is schools with kids in them, hospitals with sick people in them, and the homes of innocent pensioners are being bombed to dust with the support of America and some of the EU.
Your country supported and helped fund a coup d'etat. That is a fact you cannot escape from. And your country's support of terrorism and arming of radicals is not limited to Ukraine. It happens continuously across the word and has done so for decades.
I am surprised you never noticed that. I doubt your news reports it very often. As you are reading this, your government is killing people somewhere in the world. Be a proud American. You will forgive me if I cannot celebrate that world terrorism.
I have always been open to all ideas and opinions regardless of how crazy some may seem, and I have always liked you Manny but it seems your cheese has slipped off your cracker.
I have always stated I am neutral in the Ukraine fiasco and remain so...but...it is clear that atrocities have been committed by both sides. It is unfortunate that solid evidence does NOT exist to prove anything one way or another (and no, RT is not solid evidence in any regard any more than BBC or CNN would be).
It just baffles me to no end why you guys continue to bash each others heads in over a conflict that has absolutely nothing to do with you. Last time I checked, you are not Russian (although outsiders would be hard pressed not to think so) and 99% of the others supporting one side or the other aren't from either country either. Now I understand those that have family that are directly affected by the activities and why they may get a bit upset but why get your knickers in a twist (is that the correct way to say that?) over it? You can treat that as a rhetorical question if you like as I am not looking to argue with you or anyone else about this or anything for that matter. tiphat
Anyway, sorry you have so much hatred towards us...we really aren't bad folks and the country is pretty nice too. Oh and thanks for the laugh regarding terrorists...I needed that after my last couple of months. Cheers.
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your government poured $5bn into it
You do realize that's the amount of money the US has given to Ukraine since 1991, right? Its not a recent payment.
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Oh and thanks for the laugh regarding terrorists...I needed that after my last couple of months. Cheers.
Do you imagine America is a peaceful nation and is not killing people on the other side of the world as you read this? No Mike. A country so aggressive and constantly at war is undoubtedly a terrorist nation.
That is not to say all the people within it think that way or support that. Yes, I know it can be a pleasant place to visit and some of the folks there are nice. Like us, you people really have nobody to vote for to create change because both main parties are one and the same. The underlying machine does not change.
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your government poured $5bn into it
You do realize that's the amount of money the US has given to Ukraine since 1991, right? Its not a recent payment.
I wasnt counting the recent payments and the arms "aid". I was quoting your Nuland woman actually. Look it up. The real figure is way higher.
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Even Russia says it does not recognize the results of those elections. This is from Pravda so it is about as 'official' as it gets, without coming from Putin's mouth.
You may want to Google some more: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92cff6aa-633f-11e4-9a79-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3JkR2Hdb9
Take a look at the date on the FT story and the dates for my posts. You'll see that mine are more recent. Russia changed their mind.
By stopping paying pensions, Ukraine has thrown in the towel. Those regions have gone. There was never any doubt they would so so.
Why would a country with a limited amount of money give money that is going to end up in the hands of terrorists. It's a smart move.
Ethnic Ukrainians don't want to be part of a Russian puppet state's war on Ukrainians. There are more ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine than ethnic Russians.
Do you have a plastic flower in your lapel that squirts water? Dont be a clown. Russia has no issue with Ukrainians. They are the same peoples. How is Russia a puppet state? Tell us which nation is the puppet master? Nobody pulls Russia's strings. Westy, stop writing silly words for the sake of it and wasting e-ink. I know you don't grasp this stuff, but read some more and you may have at least half a clue before putting your foot in it again. Its becoming an embarrassing habit of yours.
Russia does have an issue with the Ukrainian government however. Russia wants Ukraine to belong to their trade union and not with the EU. As I've stated many times before. Putin will go to extreme measures to keep Ukraine under Russia's thumb. If he has to kill a few tens of thousands of people or more to get his way, that's okay, it won't be the first time.
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
Bombing schools with little kids in them while America cheers.
You are screwed in the head if you think, for one moment, America is cheering the shelling of schools...regardless of which side actually did it.
The people probably not, but the government indeed. Your government - among others - supports the action that is knowingly bombing schools and hospitals. You cannot get away from that fact. Your politicians stood in Ukraine supporting these people, your government poured $5bn into it, your elected representatives support what is happening. And whether you like it or not, what is happening is schools with kids in them, hospitals with sick people in them, and the homes of innocent pensioners are being bombed to dust with the support of America and some of the EU.
Your country supported and helped fund a coup d'etat. That is a fact you cannot escape from. And your country's support of terrorism and arming of radicals is not limited to Ukraine. It happens continuously across the word and has done so for decades.
I am surprised you never noticed that. I doubt your news reports it very often. As you are reading this, your government is killing people somewhere in the world. Be a proud American. You will forgive me if I cannot celebrate that world terrorism.
Out of curiosity Manny, do you think that Russia is a Utopia, morally right in all things...including this action? I would give you more credibility if you would criticize poor actions on both sides.
The American government is not perfect and most of us would disagree with a lot of poor decisions made over the years. We've funded bad people who have done bad things and it's turned out for the worse for most of those involved. At the same time, having traveled extensively I can say that America is a GREAT place to live and one of the few where a semblance of meritocracy is practiced. I can't say the same about Ukraine and Russia.
As for shelling in schools, it's an insurgent tactic to intentionally fire from positions that would create civilian casualties with return fire. Do those insurgents not also bear responsibility for putting those innocents in harm's way? Especially when they claim to represent and "protect" those people?
Cheers,
Jamie
p.s. As a proud former American Military Officer, I find those tactics which intentionally endanger innocents completely reprehensible. Our military (read: not the CIA or Government) follows actual lawful engagements, you would be hard-pressed to find an American military member who would ever consider such a thing. So please stop painting Americans with such broad strokes.
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We usually give more aid to Russia than the Ukraine. So I am not sure what your point is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
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https://www.youtube.com//v/vVLYyvpIex4#t=14
The Resolution about the fight against the glorification of Nazism was adopted by the Third Committee of the UN General Assembly, and only three states were against.
Guess, who? the United States, Ukraine and Canada.
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https://www.youtube.com//v/vVLYyvpIex4#t=14
The Resolution about the fight against the glorification of Nazism was adopted by the Third Committee of the UN General Assembly, and only three states were against.
Guess, who? the United States, Ukraine and Canada.
Which country signed a treaty with Nazi Germany under which they would split up rule over Eastern Europe? If you need to google it try this search: "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact", Molotov being the Foreign Minister of one country that signed the treaty and Ribbentrop being the Foreign Minister of the other country that signed the treaty.
For those of you who don't want to do a google search, you could read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
But for those who are interested in more than a stupid argument among stupid people, Stalin was probably wise to sign the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. But he was foolish to think Hitler would honor the agreement.
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Oh and thanks for the laugh regarding terrorists...I needed that after my last couple of months. Cheers.
Do you imagine America is a peaceful nation and is not killing people on the other side of the world as you read this? No Mike. A country so aggressive and constantly at war is undoubtedly a terrorist nation.
That is not to say all the people within it think that way or support that. Yes, I know it can be a pleasant place to visit and some of the folks there are nice. Like us, you people really have nobody to vote for to create change because both main parties are one and the same. The underlying machine does not change.
Perhaps you should lose a couple of friends or family members to true terrorists in order to understand what one truly is. I certainly don't wish that on you or anyone else, but it may shed some light on the subject.
We may not be the most peaceful nation on the planet for a number of reasons but that is a far cry from terrorism.
Regarding the votes...I couldn't agree more.
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https://www.youtube.com//v/vVLYyvpIex4#t=14
The Resolution about the fight against the glorification of Nazism was adopted by the Third Committee of the UN General Assembly, and only three states were against.
Guess, who? the United States, Ukraine and Canada.
Wow, I bet if I tried really hard I couldn't find anything bad that Russia...err the CCCP...has done in the last 70 years. This kind of stuff is rather pointless. Seriously, are you going to change your mind about Russian if I continuously show you examples of why you should hate it? All you guys (and girls) do is sling mud at each other and its only gotten worse over the last several months. Why? :dh:
I personally get more out of the conversations where you offer real insight into the Russian or Ukrainian thought process. And I realize that you feel the need to defend yourself from people on this side of the world who act (almost) as badly as Andrew. But that unfiltered insight is gold. I sure as hell can't get that easily in my few trips east. The more I understand the better the chances of having a successful relationship (and friendships)...and stay safer during my travels. Seriously, I can't tell you how much I value that. :thumbsup:
J
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https://www.youtube.com//v/vVLYyvpIex4#t=14
The Resolution about the fight against the glorification of Nazism was adopted by the Third Committee of the UN General Assembly, and only three states were against.
Guess, who? the United States, Ukraine and Canada.
For anyone who is a student of history it's well known that Hitler and Nazi Germany received financing from millionaire businessmen in the US and UK. Bush the Younger's grandfather was said to be involved in some of the dealings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush#Union_Banking_Corporation) with Germany. Many of the biggest names in American business in the first half of the 20th century had some connection to German businesses.
I doubt we know the whole story and probably never will but the good thing about the west is it could be put on TV if Oliver Stone or someone else uncovered the truth. Would a similar story appear on Russian TV if it was discovered that members of Putin's family aided Hitler in Hitler's war against the USSR? Somehow I doubt it.
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But for those who are interested in more than a stupid argument among stupid people, Stalin was probably wise to sign the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. But he was foolish to think Hitler would honor the agreement.
Can you make an effort and watch Oliver Stone's movie from the begining? He's American too, btw.
Moderator comment Leslied
Please refrain from making personal insults.
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I doubt we know the whole story and probably never will but the good thing about the west is it could be put on TV if Oliver Stone or someone else uncovered the truth. Would a similar story appear on Russian TV if it was discovered that members of Putin's family aided Hitler in Hitler's war against the USSR? Somehow I doubt it.
Vladimir Putin's brother died during blokage of Leningrad and was burried in the bed of honor there.
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But for those who are interested in more than a stupid argument among stupid people, Stalin was probably wise to sign the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. But he was foolish to think Hitler would honor the agreement.
Can you make an effort and watch Oliver Stone's movie from the begining? He's American too, btw. Oh yes, you need to break away from masturbation on naked girls pictures.
Readers will note that Mila won't respond to arguments but only insults people because she is too stupid to come up with actual arguments.
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Now the Russians can see just what the LNR is all about.
http://lifeinua.info/terrorist-stole-funds-sent-moscow-pay-pensions/
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But for those who are interested in more than a stupid argument among stupid people, Stalin was probably wise to sign the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. But he was foolish to think Hitler would honor the agreement.
Can you make an effort and watch Oliver Stone's movie from the begining? He's American too, btw.
Readers will note that Mila won't respond to arguments but only insults people because she is too stupid to come up with actual arguments.
Readers will note that it was my reply on your previous comment. I try not to argue with idiots, I just post links and people can do their own conclusions.
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https://www.youtube.com//v/vVLYyvpIex4#t=14
The Resolution about the fight against the glorification of Nazism was adopted by the Third Committee of the UN General Assembly, and only three states were against.
Guess, who? the United States, Ukraine and Canada.
There was a strong feeling among many Americans that they should stay out of "European" wars. Charles Lindbergh, the famous pilot, and his father were both leaders in the "America First" movement.
From a strategy viewpoint, Lindbergh argued that Germany would exhaust itself against Russia, leaving both the Nazis and Communists to be easy to defeat by the American army.
From the beginning, it was known that Germany did not have enough oil to sustain a war.
That they lasted as long as they did is testament to the three great accomplishments of Germany at that time: German military, military equipment (Panzer tanks), and especially German engineering, including the coal-to-oil process that allowed them to take coal and turn it into oil - Allied bombing shut down the plant enough that it never functioned as it should.
My personal view - USA should not have participated in WWI, nor WWII .
No country was ever a serious threat to the USA, separated as it is by two large oceans and any invasion force would have encountered "a rifle behind every blade of grass" as the saying goes.
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I doubt we know the whole story and probably never will but the good thing about the west is it could be put on TV if Oliver Stone or someone else uncovered the truth. Would a similar story appear on Russian TV if it was discovered that members of Putin's family aided Hitler in Hitler's war against the USSR? Somehow I doubt it.
Vladimir Putin's brother died during blokage of Leningrad and was burried in the bed of honor there.
He (Albert) was a child and died of Diphtheria didn't he? What exactly was he honored for? I am asking to understand and certainly don't take anything away from the people who endured or passed during that horrific siege. Just wondering....
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wiki says that Vladimir Putin's brother Viktor died of diphtheria, Albert died within a few months of birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
this article has some information about the 'bed of honor'
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/europe/vladimir-putin-describes-loss-of-a-brother-at-ceremony.html?_r=0
Vladimir Putin's brother died during blokage of Leningrad and was burried in the bed of honor there.
He (Albert) was a child and died of Diphtheria didn't he? What exactly was he honored for? I am asking to understand and certainly don't take anything away from the people who endured or passed during that horrific siege. Just wondering....
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wiki says that Vladimir Putin's brother Viktor died of diphtheria, Albert died within a few months of birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
this article has some information about the 'bed of honor'
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/europe/vladimir-putin-describes-loss-of-a-brother-at-ceremony.html?_r=0
Vladimir Putin's brother died during blokage of Leningrad and was burried in the bed of honor there.
He (Albert) was a child and died of Diphtheria didn't he? What exactly was he honored for? I am asking to understand and certainly don't take anything away from the people who endured or passed during that horrific siege. Just wondering....
Thanks Lon...I slept since I read it last :). I knew it was one of them. :biggrin:
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But for those who are interested in more than a stupid argument among stupid people, Stalin was probably wise to sign the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. But he was foolish to think Hitler would honor the agreement.
Can you make an effort and watch Oliver Stone's movie from the begining? He's American too, btw.
How interesting!!!
How did you know? Have you honored to hold a candle for him?
What about your husband? He is going to be jealous........
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Readers will note that it was my reply on your previous comment. I try not to argue with idiots, I just post links and people can do their own conclusions.
Мадам Глупость очнулась от зимней спячки даже не впадая в нее.... :ROFL:
Очень удобно! Нет надобности даже протереть глаза!!!
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Кто-то вроде бы форум торжественно покидал? ;D
Буду знать, что одного моего поста достаточно, чтобы забыть про учебу и любимого хазбанда и кинуться защищать Ларри :chuckle:
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wiki says that Vladimir Putin's brother Viktor died of diphtheria, Albert died within a few months of birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
this article has some information about the 'bed of honor'
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/europe/vladimir-putin-describes-loss-of-a-brother-at-ceremony.html?_r=0
Vladimir Putin's brother died during blokage of Leningrad and was burried in the bed of honor there.
He (Albert) was a child and died of Diphtheria didn't he? What exactly was he honored for? I am asking to understand and certainly don't take anything away from the people who endured or passed during that horrific siege. Just wondering....
Лон, переведи "братская могила".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piskaryovskoye_Memorial_Cemetery
His brother's name was Victor, he was 2 years old, Putin's mother survived during blokage.
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Кто-то вроде бы форум торжественно покидал? ;D
Буду знать, что одного моего поста достаточно, чтобы забыть про учебу и любимого хазбанда и кинуться защищать Ларри :chuckle:
I am on my break.
If you continue to insult people, you will leave the forum without any special ceremony.
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wiki says that Vladimir Putin's brother Viktor died of diphtheria, Albert died within a few months of birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
this article has some information about the 'bed of honor'
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/europe/vladimir-putin-describes-loss-of-a-brother-at-ceremony.html?_r=0
Vladimir Putin's brother died during blokage of Leningrad and was burried in the bed of honor there.
He (Albert) was a child and died of Diphtheria didn't he? What exactly was he honored for? I am asking to understand and certainly don't take anything away from the people who endured or passed during that horrific siege. Just wondering....
Лон, переведи "братская могила".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piskaryovskoye_Memorial_Cemetery
His brother's name was Victor, he was 2 years old, Putin's mother survived during blokage.
Yes I was mistaken which one it was but I thought they were both (the brothers) born in the mid 30's weren't they? I guess it really doesn't matter if he was 2 or 5 at this point but I will need to read more about it to find out why he was laid to rest with the honored and when. Will make for an interesting read.
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Back to my first post. Anybody can explain why these three countries's governments (USA, Canada and ukraine) support the glorification of fascism.
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Back to my first post. Anybody can explain why these three countries's governments (USA, Canada and ukraine) support the glorification of fascism.
You did not mention - there were 51 abstentions (abstain from voting) also.
https://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2013/ga11475.doc.htm
And the full title was :
“Combating glorification of Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”
My guess, they added "Nazism" as a way to shame people into supporting it. To the UN, a country that limits immigration is "racist".
Maybe this section:
Reaffirms
the relevant provisions of the Durban Declaration and of
the outcome document of the Durban Review Conference, in which States
condemned the persistence and resurgence of neo-Nazism, neo-Fascism and
violent nationalist ideologies based on racial and national prejudice and stated
that those phenomena could never be justified in any instance or in any
circumstances;
Maybe you have heard the term "rubber law", a law which can be interpreted in any way, so that the person charged can always be found guilty.
That is what this resolution is. It is not about Nazism, otherwise, that is all the resolution would cover.
It is not your English ability either - because before you made this slander, and brought up this irrelevant issue, you read the original in Russian, right?
http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/68/454&referer=/english/&Lang=R
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Back to my first post. Anybody can explain why these three countries's governments (USA, Canada and ukraine) support the glorification of fascism.
You should ask to explain to you English Grammar rules first and then political issues.
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Slumba! What a funny avatar!!! :laugh:
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Fluff huh? Yet you didn't show anything about the question I asked.
"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
The link showed that this is the pressing agenda for the RADA. It hasn't happened YET!
Mike you need to learn to read. I am not sure which part of "territorial disputes by peaceful means" you didn't grasp. Hint: Bombing schools with little kids in them while America cheers is NOT peaceful means. We call those actions war crimes.
It appears that once again you're attempting to change stuff after the fact. You said (and this is your words)"Cant join NATO without control of your borders or territorial disputes."
Since that phrase wasn't in any NATO parameters and wording to "territorial disputes by peaceful means"., Right off the top of my head I'd say you've attempted to change things. Why? Because you tossed fluff in the wind and it blew back at you?
It'd be hard to have peaceful borders with Russia invading your country. Duh..
You seem to forget that UA has managed to be a peaceful nation since 1991 quite unlike Russia.
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It is not your English ability either - because before you made this slander, and brought up this irrelevant issue, you read the original in Russian, right?
http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/68/454&referer=/english/&Lang=R
Where the slander is? They refused that means they did agree with glorification of Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
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Make sure that you read the headlines at the Moscow Times..
It seems that Col. Igor Girkin, (Strelkov) late of the GRU and FSB, `fessed up to starting the whole problem is eastern Ukraine. War Crimes confession possibly?
"Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine"
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-s-igor-strelkov-claims-responsibility-for-unleashing-war-in-ukraine/511584.html
While you're looking at him look at his bio at Wiki. He's got a long sordid past at being Russia's triggerman at most of the conflicts it's been is since 1991.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin
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practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
Gee this sounds like todays Russia! (:) (:) (:) (:) (:) (:)
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It is not your English ability either - because before you made this slander, and brought up this irrelevant issue, you read the original in Russian, right?
http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/68/454&referer=/english/&Lang=R
Where the slander is? They refused that means they did agree with glorification of Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
Where the slander is?
It means I said something.... Could you, please, explain me what I said?
...related intolerance.
Millaa is calling for tolerance!!!!! She is, probably, really miserable!
Again, can someone translate into English what she said in “English”?
She is uniquely historically pathetic! :laugh: (I try to copy her!)
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Orchid, relax darling. Your English is not much better.
Her post was in reply to Slumba BTW.
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Orchid, Please don't become like her. You're a beacon of light in this place! :bow: :thumbsup:
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I am relaxed.... I am on my break..... I am having fun!
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Make sure that you read the headlines at the Moscow Times..
It seems that Col. Igor Girkin, (Strelkov) late of the GRU and FSB, `fessed up to starting the whole problem is eastern Ukraine. War Crimes confession possibly?
"Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine"
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-s-igor-strelkov-claims-responsibility-for-unleashing-war-in-ukraine/511584.html
While you're looking at him look at his bio at Wiki. He's got a long sordid past at being Russia's triggerman at most of the conflicts it's been is since 1991.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin
This guy is ugly.
Orchid, Please don't become like her. You're a beacon of light in this place! :bow: :thumbsup:
I agree - some gentility from the woman might rub on the opposite sex.
I am relaxed.... I am on my break..... I am having fun!
Poor Mila
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I am relaxed.... I am on my break..... I am having fun!
Don't ever be brought down by those that are already unhappy...
And I have insomnia because some idiot from Quebec decided to call me at 2:30 in the morning :-)
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your government poured $5bn into it
You do realize that's the amount of money the US has given to Ukraine since 1991, right? Its not a recent payment.
I wasnt counting the recent payments and the arms "aid". I was quoting your Nuland woman actually. Look it up. The real figure is way higher.
Are you aware that the US gave $2.7 billion in aid to Russia during the same period?
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Together with many other countries that don't need it (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1393960/US-gives-billions-foreign-aid-worlds-richest-countries-asks-borrow-back.html). If they are daft enough to give it away, why not take it? The UK also sends lots of money to countries that don't need it.
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So what's the relevance of the aid to Ukraine if the aid to Russia is irrelevant?
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So what's the relevance of the aid to Ukraine if the aid to Russia is irrelevant?
You beat me to it Mr Mann, how does that even make sense Manny? ???
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So what's the relevance of the aid to Ukraine if the aid to Russia is irrelevant?
Because, if one looks up some American politicians comments, the US was seeking to influence events there. I think it was couched in terms like "promoting democracy", which is doublespeak for doing as America says. Worked out well didn't it? (:)
I don't think "aid" is the correct word for most of it actually. It goes to different places for different reasons.
Does anybody happen to know what the "aid" to Russia was actually supposed to be for?
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You can see some of it broken down here:
http://www.foreignassistance.gov/web/DataView.aspx
Select Russia from "Organisational Unit" and press "Run".
There are plenty of schemes that are clearly not about "promoting democracy" and actually for the good of the people.
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p.s. As a proud former American Military Officer, I find those tactics which intentionally endanger innocents completely reprehensible. Our military (read: not the CIA or Government) follows actual lawful engagements, you would be hard-pressed to find an American military member who would ever consider such a thing. So please stop painting Americans with such broad strokes.
For clarity, Jamie, I doubt you will find anything written by me that implicates individual US soldiers as in any way complicit in the decisions of their government. If you join the military you are doing a job. You are not paid to think and do not get to pick and choose missions. Apart from the odd aberration, the US military personnel seem to be as professional as any in the first world. Unfortunately, when posted abroad or piloting drones from the US, that may well mean killing innocents. Nobody suggested that they are acts committed on purpose by individuals, but it doesn't stop it happening on a daily basis.
Do not fall into the trap that some here do of interpreting rightful criticism of America "the entity" as criticism of individual American people. Some get that line blurred.
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So what's the relevance of the aid to Ukraine if the aid to Russia is irrelevant?
Because, if one looks up some American politicians comments, the US was seeking to influence events there. I think it was couched in terms like "promoting democracy", which is doublespeak for doing as America says. Worked out well didn't it? (:)
I don't think "aid" is the correct word for most of it actually. It goes to different places for different reasons.
Does anybody happen to know what the "aid" to Russia was actually supposed to be for?
I far as I know all the aid we gave to the Ukraine was junk that we were getting rid of. Old humbee used that needed to be retired and other left over stuff. We place a high value on it for book keeping purposes to make us look good in a audit. I think the only reason the Ukrainians took much of it was a way to be nice. The influence of event there is the sanctions not the aid up to this point. The biggest influence of event is going to be the lower price of oil which is in part caused by us but had nothing to do with the Ukraine war. We drilled more oil in America and imported less. In two year when Obama is replace most likely with a republican then you point will most likely be true. We will likely send lots of military aid to Ukraine to deter further Russian advances. The Ukraine is planning to triple it military budget and be better prepaired in the future even without our help.
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It is not your English ability either - because before you made this slander, and brought up this irrelevant issue, you read the original in Russian, right?
http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/68/454&referer=/english/&Lang=R
Where the slander is? They refused that means they did agree with glorification of Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.
You have 100% missed the points...
1. 51 abstentions means it was not just a few countries that did not support the resolution.
2. It was not a simple statement "Nazis are bad" but an attempt to mix Nazism with other movements, such as nationalist ones and ones that run along lines of race.
Are Russians for Russia? --That is a nationalist thought, so under this resolution, any politician who got elected after saying "Russia should be for Russians" would be in violation of this resolution. If a Swedish person said "those who are of the traditional, pre-1960s Swedish gene pool should not be denied Swedish citizenship" that would also be condemned.
3. "Rubber law" - do you know this term?
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Do not fall into the trap that some here do of interpreting rightful criticism of America "the entity" as criticism of individual American people.
So criticising Putin or some of his policies is anti-Russian but criticising the American government or state is not anti-American, is that what you're saying?
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Strelkov is an interesting bloke but the translation that you see in the Moscow Times is almost certainly not a clean translation. I am keen to see an authoritative translation of his words.
The guy is somewhat naive as can be seen from his words elsewhere and previously. In many ways he is very old fashioned, his heritage is pre-Soviet and he describes himself as a monarchist.
The main point that people munging over this translation is the business about him starting the rebellion. In that regard he is wrong and certainly overstates his situation. The saying 'cometh the hour, comes the man' applies here.
Go back a few months, before most of you lot knew anything was happening. At the time Right Sector was roving around killing people, there was no resistance. Strelkov showed a few people that they did not have to deal with this treatment. Had he not done so then somebody else would have done. Chances are that Akhmetov's role would have been different, bearing in mind that he was already organising the miners and metalworkers into defence units, some of which became subsumed into the defence forces and from which sprang Zakarchenko, the prime minister of the DPR, a man who worked for Akhmetov.
EDITED To Add: For those who might not have been keeping up back then here's a useful document that tracks the development of matters in Ukraine: http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1910969.html?thread=270853561
This is heavily annotated by video.
This document is actually pretty helpful in terms of setting the context of time for the current silliness. For sure though it can be seen that, vitally important though Strelkov's work was to the safety of the people of the region, he was not present at the start and he merely aided in speeding up the rolling stone. For those who might doubt the peril faced by those in the east look at the statements made by junta leaders and those who chose to take up arms against the Donbass BEFORE the point at which many might recognise the start of the 'rebellion'.
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With regard to 'aid' to Russia and its difference when applied in the Ukraine case: Russia recognised what was happening in respect of most US 'aid' and as a result set up means to protect itself. This was why NGO's were asked to register with the government.
Similar action was not taken in Ukraine with the results that we see now.
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Wings Phoenix: About that ‘high-precision weapon’ at Donetsk airport
Posted on November 23, 2014 by chervonaruta VOICES OF UKRAINE
By Wings Phoenix, (Iurii Biriukov), army volunteer and Assistant Minister to the Minister of Defense
11.22.2014
Translated by Wings Phoenix Eng and edited by Voices of Ukraine, used with permission
The strangest photo report about a cargo delivery to Donetsk airport. I’ve been carefully delaying it, for the reason that the chief specialist in this specific issue has been in the airport all this time. But today he successfully returned to base, and hence…. Hence I can write a little bit about this.
Those following the Donetsk airport may remember, that at the beginning of last week, there was a series of reports about direct hits by our artillery, about the destruction of the militants’ bomb shelter, and the wounding of the idiot in a hat. The NSDC [National Security & Defense Council] has been reporting on the usage of a new high-precision weapon. Vladislav Seleznev was saying clever stuff….. But totally did not know what was going on.
Even now I cannot tell you the details. But a part of this ‘high-precision weapon’ we delivered to the airport on November 13th, and it has been working there since. Dmitry Marchenko has done a good job as always, and then dropped off more equipment. All this process has been watched by Diana Petrenya, who was quite intrigued by it. In short, all our usual crowd was involved.
Poor stupid separatists. … Well, why did you come here? To us? To our native land? Ay-ay-ay… How inconvenient is this – crawling into a bomb shelter that is about to be blasted by a direct hit. Maybe it is time for you to get out of here, *snip*s?
This is just a hint, though. Because next week we are coming there again, and bringing another piece of gear. Even more high-precision.
P.S.: Yuriy Kasyanov’s drones are playing a big role in the success of the usage of these ‘high-precision weapons,’ for which he gets a big thank you!
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/11/23/wings-phoenix-about-that-high-precision-weapon-at-donetsk-airport/
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I would be interested in what type of high precision artillery they now have access to and who supplied it.
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Yanukovych’s embezzler is now a citizen of Israel
2014/11/20 • News
One of the most wanted associates of Viktor Yanukovych, the former energy minister Eduard Stavytskyi, has taken Israeli citizenship and changed his name to Rosenberg, reports journalist and newly elected deputy Serhiy Leshchenko on his blog, November 20.
“According to my sources, Stavytskyi is now Eduard Rosenberg,” Leshchenko writes. Stavytskyi’s wife, Olena, is now Helena Rosenberg.
According to Leshchenko, it was Stavytsky who in 2007 implemented the scheme to steal Mezhyhiria (Yanukovych’s palatial residence near Kiev — Ed.) and who planted in Yanukovych’s mind the “complex of impunity and unlimited wealth.”
Stavytskyi reached his career heights after the election of Yanukovych when he became minister of the environment and then minister of energy. During the Yanukovych era he obtained some two dozen permits for the development and subsequent extraction of oil and gas for his firm Golden Derrick LLC (for at least 28 fields in Ukraine ! — Ed.)
“When Yanukovych’s regime fell, Stavytskyi tried to negotiate. He began to relate on television how he was an underground partisan-patriot,” Leshchenko says. However, the ex-minister still had to leave the country due to his status as a suspect in the matter of the “misappropriation and embezzlement of an especially large sum of government property through abuse of power.”
A search conducted at the Stavytskyi residence after he fled the country uncovered a collection of watches, some of which cost more than $600,000, diamonds, 42 kilograms of gold, and $5 million in cash. He was placed on the Interpol international most wanted list, but reports appeared this summer that he had received Israeli citizenship, which placed him out of reach of Ukrainian justice since Israel does not extradite its citizens.
watches 300x225 Yanukovychs embezzler is now a citizen of Israel“Therefore, Stavytskyi has escaped unscathed; he was free to live in his new country and the only limitation was the fact that he could not travel abroad since the Ukrainian arrest warrant was in effect there. However. things are even worse that they appeared. Stavytskyi has bought not only freedom but a new life. He is now Eduard Rosenberg,” Leschenko writes.
“Thus a citizen of Ukraine, whose arrest had been authorized worldwide, has transformed himself into a respectable citizen of Israel. With a passport under the name of Eduard Rosenberg, he can travel freely around the globe since he is no longer wanted. That is easy to verify on the Interpol site,” he adds.
According to Leschenko, “the Stavytskyis are now registered in Israel, at Hahoresh, 101, Kfar Shmaryahu — a respectable suburb of Tel Aviv near the sea coast, consisting mostly of villas.” He encourages readers who live in Tel Aviv to locate and photograph the property.
Meanwhile, Leschenko insists that he and his colleagues will appeal to the Prosecutor General to place Stavytskyi on the Interpol wanted list under his new name. “If we are unable to extract him from Israel, at least we should deprive him of the chance to move freely around the world and to enjoy the wealth he has looted from Ukraine,” he concludes.
Adapted and translated from Leshchenko’s blog.
http://euromaidanpress.com/201...a-citizen-of-israel/
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I would be interested in what type of high precision artillery they now have access to and who supplied it.
I'm sure that the nasty neighbors to the north would be interested also! :ROFL:
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p.s. As a proud former American Military Officer, I find those tactics which intentionally endanger innocents completely reprehensible. Our military (read: not the CIA or Government) follows actual lawful engagements, you would be hard-pressed to find an American military member who would ever consider such a thing. So please stop painting Americans with such broad strokes.
For clarity, Jamie, I doubt you will find anything written by me that implicates individual US soldiers as in any way complicit in the decisions of their government. If you join the military you are doing a job. You are not paid to think and do not get to pick and choose missions. Apart from the odd aberration, the US military personnel seem to be as professional as any in the first world. Unfortunately, when posted abroad or piloting drones from the US, that may well mean killing innocents. Nobody suggested that they are acts committed on purpose by individuals, but it doesn't stop it happening on a daily basis.
Do not fall into the trap that some here do of interpreting rightful criticism of America "the entity" as criticism of individual American people. Some get that line blurred.
I was responding to the "Be a Proud American" comment. Seemed to be aimed at the individual. But I'm happy to be wrong. Personally I like you quite a bit Manny. You've always been kind, supportive and thoughtful for people pursing FSUW, myself included...for which I am very thankful. I just don't understand why you so strongly opine that the United States is a terrible, baby-killing, destabilizing force...but the Russian government is only full of sunshine and roses.
Have not the actions of the Russian Government been even the slightest bit destabilizing in Ukraine? Is it really just a one-way street? I believe the old saying "it takes two to Tango" might apply here.
I also noticed you did not comment on the tactics of the Pro-Russian "Separatists" to intentionally use innocent civilians as hostages human shields. If protecting the people from the fascist junta government was really their number one priority, why on God's green earth would they take up positions right next to children and schools? That tactic really chaps my ass and certainly tells a darker story. :GRRRR:
And please don't tell me how other governments kill civilians. Tell me why this tactic isn't worthy of flat out criticism.
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I also noticed you did not comment on the tactics of the Pro-Russian "Separatists" to intentionally use innocent civilians as hostages human shields. If protecting the people from the fascist junta government was really their number one priority, why on God's green earth would they take up positions right next to children and schools? That tactic really chaps my ass and certainly tells a darker story. :GRRRR:
And please don't tell me how other governments kill civilians. Tell me why this tactic isn't worthy of flat out criticism.
I doubt very much that the separatists are taking positions in the schools where their own kids are. I wouldnt do that. Would you?
As an opposition force, would you bomb an area if you knew there was a likelihood of hitting a school with kids in? I wouldnt. Others might depending on what drives them.
Urban warfare is a highly specialised subject, and I am not a specialist in the mechanics of it. I couldn't knowledgably comment on that further.
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I just don't understand why you so strongly opine that the United States is a terrible, baby-killing, destabilizing force...but the Russian government is only full of sunshine and roses.
Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does. The US doesn't have Russia destabilizing its neighbours, effecting regime changes and interfering. Russia has the US doing all that stuff on its doorstep.
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Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does.
Well except for these few blood baths.
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Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does.
Well except for these few blood baths.
Your reading comprehension has given out again, Mike. Find a similar visual about Russian v US wars. Then you will get it.
Here, let me help you with that:
[attachimg=1]
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Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does.
Well except for these few blood baths.
Your reading comprehension has given out again, Mike. Find a similar visual about Russian v US wars. Then you will get it.
Here, let me help you with that:
(Attachment Link)
And yet the title of this topic is, The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine.
Not the USA VS Ma nny.
Comprende`?
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Yes, I thought that would be inconvenient. You can now go back to your fervent anti-Putin rhetoric. tiphat
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Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does. The US doesn't have Russia destabilizing its neighbours, effecting regime changes and interfering. Russia has the US doing all that stuff on its doorstep.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: Don't you hate being caught telling fairy tales! :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does.
Well except for these few blood baths.
Your reading comprehension has given out again, Mike. Find a similar visual about Russian v US wars. Then you will get it.
Here, let me help you with that:
(Attachment Link)
Manny, have you spent much time in Ukraine? Even lately? There's large affinity for Russia as brothers and most of the country speaks Russian as their primary language. There's no need to protect "Russians" in Ukraine...the idea really is laughable.
However, the country IS corrupt. Probably as bad or worse than Russia is was before Putin came to power. I don't necessarily see democracy as a solution for every country. Russia is simply too vast and resources too scarce to waste and still maintain sovereignty. The middle east is probably another good example with all the tribal identities there.
But to your point above about criticizing the American Government only...this graphic seems to implicate the American people as a bunch of war mongering cattle. I suggest that perhaps you know a little less about us than you claim.
-J
p.s. You're up early...or late
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Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade.
Ummm, do these two words ring a bell: Soviet States
I have about 20+ countries that used to be referred to as Soviet States or Satellite states including most of Eastern Europe that might disagree with that statement.
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Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. The US is. Russia is not dragging half the world into its wars. The US does.
Well except for these few blood baths.
Your reading comprehension has given out again, Mike. Find a similar visual about Russian v US wars. Then you will get it.
Here, let me help you with that:
(Attachment Link)
Manny if you do the reading you'll find many other countries wanted something done about the Taliban in Afghanistan and the recent problems in Libya and Syria. Especially the recent problems in Libya and Syria. Demands for action especially for the US to act were in the global media.
The US became involved in those countries because no other countries could. For some reason the Middle East countries can't or don't want to handle their own problems and closer 1st world countries such as the UK and other European countries can't be bothered. As for the Iraq War that Bush the Younger got the US involved in I think that was a mistake but the others you mentioned IMHO were justifiable.
The simple fact is there are groups and countries around the world who want something their neighbours have and are willing to go to war to get it. That is one of the main reasons why all the FSU satellite countries ran to the EU and NATO for protection they knew what to expect from Russia, they didn't have to be talked into joining they were eager to join.
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Your reading comprehension has given out again, Mike. Find a similar visual about Russian v US wars. Then you will get it.
Here, let me help you with that:
Afghanistan (before the USA went there)
Hungary 1956
Poland and Lech Walesa
East Germany
These are USSR times.
OK, Russia from 1991 onwards:
Georgia/South Ossetia 2008
Ukraine (as is now admitted by the Putinistas, when before we had to deal with the Russian "fairy tales" about vacationing artillery battalions all deciding to visit Ukraine)
Dagestan
Ingushetia, somewhat related to what had happened in Chechnya
Chechnya, actually 2 different military operations - and just as USA did with Muslims, it was used as a pretext for other operations - BTW estimated 25K civilians dead in that conflict
Do you need a pretty graphic, Manny?
If you think ANY of the Great Powers don't have blood, and lots of it, on their hands, then you just aren't paying attention.
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Your reading comprehension has given out again, Mike. Find a similar visual about Russian v US wars. Then you will get it.
Here, let me help you with that:
Afghanistan (before the USA went there)
Hungary 1956
Poland and Lech Walesa
East Germany
These are USSR times.
OK, Russia from 1991 onwards:
Georgia/South Ossetia 2008
Ukraine (as is now admitted by the Putinistas, when before we had to deal with the Russian "fairy tales" about vacationing artillery battalions all deciding to visit Ukraine)
Dagestan
Ingushetia, somewhat related to what had happened in Chechnya
Chechnya, actually 2 different military operations - and just as USA did with Muslims, it was used as a pretext for other operations - BTW estimated 25K civilians dead in that conflict
Do you need a pretty graphic, Manny?
If you think ANY of the Great Powers don't have blood, and lots of it, on their hands, then you just aren't paying attention.
You left out Czechoslovakia in 1968.
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Let's not forget the countries to which the USSR sent arms, military advisors, or invaded since WWII -
Turkey
Iran
Korea
Vietnam
Hungary
Egypt
Czechoslovakia
Poland
Angola
Ethiopia
Somalia
Nicaragua
" Simple: Russia is not invading country after country after country all across the world for decade after decade. "
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Let's not forget the countries to which the USSR sent arms, military advisors, or invaded since WWII -
...Angola...
I'm not sure Angola belongs on that list. Cuba sent troops there and Cuba received a great deal of support from the USSR but I have read that the Soviets didn't particularly want Cuba to send troops. Castro was a loose cannon at times. I would have to do a little searching for the primary source that supports that assertion.
But as to the question of advisors, I don't know.
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Advisors!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations
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what manny fails to see in his criticism of the US is the more than equal amount of conflicts /wars that great britian has been involved in all over the globe as well ,
list here in this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Great_Britain
even now there supporting the US etc, in regard to ukraine
however he still maintains it is the US who is the devil to be watched
while your busy demonising the US , you brits have been out across the globe kicking heads as well lol
SX
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Donetsk women give terrorists two months to leave town
In Donetsk on Monday, November 24, a protest took place against the lack of food and social security benefits by the so-called “female opposition battalion” demanding that the terrorists leave town within two months. Similar protests demanding that the Russians leave have also taken place in other cities in the Donbas, Andriy Lysenko, spokesman for the National Security Council, reported at a press briefing, November 25.
“In the temporarily occupied territories of the Donbas, resistance by the local residents is growing and becoming better organized. In particular, in Donetsk another demonstration has taken place that was organized by the so-called united women’s opposition battalion,” Lysenko said.
“Local women are outraged by the present situation where there is a lack of food and the absence of any social security from the terrorist authorities as well as the distribution of counterfeit money by the DNR authorities that no store will accept,” he added.
“The protest movement activists have given an ultimatum to the so-called prime minister of DNR demanding that (his people) get out of town within two months,” he said.
Lysenko noted that over the past several days similar protests by local residents have also taken place in Amvrosiyivka, Sverdlovsk, Chervonopartyzansk and Rovenky in the Lugansk Oblast.
“In addition, in the occupied towns of Fashchivka, Chornukhino and Krasnyi Luch, where Russian troops have positioned Grad multiple rocket launchers in the midst of residential neighborhoods in order to fire at ATO forces, local residents have come out with makeshift weapons demanding that the Russians leave their cities and remove all their weapons,” he reported
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/25/donetsk-women-give-terrorists-two-months-to-leave-town/
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“In the temporarily occupied territories new republics within the Donbas,
There, fixed that for you.
Nothing "temporary" about it old son. There is also no "occupation".
Keep churning out that American propaganda. People in Idaho might believe it. Europeans generally don't.
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Clean off you spectacles Manny.. :eeekk:
That isn't from any American news, yet alone Idaho. :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
It is from Europe! silly.. (:)
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It is from Europe! silly.. (:)
Daft old chap. "Euromaidenpress" isn't "Europe", it is a propaganda channel that routinely spouts untruths and lies. Think of it as ten steps below your CNN or Fox. All drivel funded from your side. :chuckle:
Some here say we must question the source. Well that site, the Kiev Post and the Moscow Times are NOT FSU channels of any description. They are foreign propaganda funnels masquerading as local outlets.
Please try to refrain from posting any old unverified shite you find on Yahoo simply to support your tenuous "position". Verify your sources to some extent at least.
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It is from Europe! silly.. (:)
Daft old chap. "Euromaidenpress" isn't "Europe", it is a propaganda channel that routinely spouts untruths and lies. Think of it as ten steps below your CNN or Fox. All drivel funded from your side. :chuckle:
Some here say we must question the source. Well that site, the Kiev Post and the Moscow Times are NOT FSU channels of any description. They are foreign propaganda funnels.
Open your eyes dummy.. Euromaidan is from Ukraine. They write it there using their news and vews. IF it happens to be the same as most of the rest of the world then so be it. Your rose colored glasses only clouds you vision.
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The source article doesn't seem to be written for an American audience.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/11/25/7045342/
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The article is true, there have been protests. There are Pro Ukrainians living there along with partisans. What the article does not spell out is how large the protests are. I do not know the figure but it has been said to be not above 15%. However, you can to some extent add upwards of 70% of the rest that do not care so much who is in charge and mostly just want peace.
At least that is the social pages scuttle.
As somebody recently said, it is going to be a cold winter. That can be said of the Donbas area also. There are government factions that are against giving anything to the area that hates them. Things may not go so well there in the near future and anything can happen. People can have a change of mind especially if Russia does not jump in and take care of them in all ways.
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It is from Europe! silly.. (:)
Daft old chap. "Euromaidenpress" isn't "Europe", it is a propaganda channel that routinely spouts untruths and lies. Think of it as ten steps below your CNN or Fox. All drivel funded from your side. :chuckle:
Some here say we must question the source. Well that site, the Kiev Post and the Moscow Times are NOT FSU channels of any description. They are foreign propaganda funnels.
Open your eyes dummy.. Euromaidan is from Ukraine. They write it there using their news and vews. IF it happens to be the same as most of the rest of the world then so be it. Your rose colored glasses only clouds you vision.
Trouble the Ukrainian press is as bent as the government that tells it what to print :chuckle:
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What I don't get , is why the new powers-that-be in the Donbass region haven't started levying taxes yet. They can use those to improve the living conditions of the elderly/pensioners, etc.
Thats what is one of the prerequisites of a real state.
* Money
* Taxes
* Land-area
* Government
* Police
* Army
* Justice system.
Right now, they are severely lacking in all of them. Land-area will be the last, when the west finally accepts them.
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What I don't get , is why the new powers-that-be in the Donbass region haven't started levying taxes yet. They can use those to improve the living conditions of the elderly/pensioners, etc.
Thats what is one of the prerequisites of a real state.
* Money
* Taxes
* Land-area
* Government
* Police
* Army
* Justice system.
Right now, they are severely lacking in all of them. Land-area will be the last, when the west finally accepts them.
The trouble is the place is a wreck there is no economy to speak of to levy taxes on, it will take years to get this region on its feet again
The thing i cant understand is that with the removal of funds for all things state paid for do they really feel that this will make these people(that's the non military involved) feel closer to kiev, i think not :laugh:
Maybe its the time to set down some borders and se how it all dries out, but then with the idiots in the Junta that wont happen
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Markje, Sparky is right about the taxes and economy.
Steps are already being taken to build a civil society but these things take time and are not easily done when the most capable people are being shelled on an hourly basis.
It should be remembered that many people who are what one might call 'influencers' had been expecting and hoping for a transition to the Russian state not a state of independence.
Your list though is incorrect. There is one single prerequisite for a state. A prerequisite being the thing that is required BEFORE the desired thing.
That prerequisite is DESIRE and that has been growing over time. A small seed becomes a plant and then a thriving shrub then finally a healthy tree in a forest of healthy trees.
The attributes that you outlined come AFTER the desire has taken shape and the existence of the state been made firm. Right now the desire is growing and it is clear that being part of Ukraine is no longer a real option - Ukraine has quote clearly indicated as much. However whether there will be a state or a new part of Russia, or possibly even subjugation under Ukrainian conquest is not yet clear.
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Trouble the Ukrainian press is as bent as the government that tells it what to print :chuckle:
And this would be different from Russia in what way? :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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They started have tax system. DNR has a 20 per cent income tax which is suppose to replace the old methode which was to take guns into a business and decide what should be the states part. Many people are in un employeed and home less. They are hard to tax.
Boarders are not near an agreement. DNR and LNR for now would like the complete state. Long term they want everything from Odessa to along the southern boarder to Russia. They have taken hunderds of squares miles since the cease fire. This war is likely no where near over as both sides rearm. The Ukraine hope Russia will grow tired of the on going cost of this war. The bigger the DNR and LNR get the more hungry people there are to feed and the more pensions to be paid. So maybe Russia will not want DNR and LNR to be too much bigger.
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Trouble the Ukrainian press is as bent as the government that tells it what to print :chuckle:
And this would be different from Russia in what way? :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Its not :ROFL: :ROFL:a bit like the Rest of the worlds too tiphat
Now Mikey i cant believe i am agreeing with you :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Are you going to stop editing my posts? :fighting0025:
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Whoops, It seems that they can't handle any more of their "victory". Time for a time out.
Donbas insurgents ask UN to send peacekeepers
Russian-backed insurgent leaders in eastern Ukraine have asked the United Nations to send a peacekeeping force to the region as the humanitarian situation grows dire.
Members of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic said UN peacekeepers are necessary to 'resolve the humanitarian and social situation' that has been deteriorating since insurgents took control of the area back in April.
They've also asked for help to implement a ceasefire deal that was signed by Ukraine, Russia, insurgents and the OSCE back in September in Minsk, Belarus that has been violated repeatedly.
Since the ceasefire was signed, the UN reports over 1,000 people have been killed and Ukraine reports that between 5,000 and 10,000 Russian troops have entered Ukrainian territory.
Earlier this month, Ukrainian authorities were forced to leave government buildings in the east of the country because of threats to staff. Ukrainian authorities also had to cut off welfare payments to residents in insurgent-controlled territory because the security situation made it impossible to get money to residents.
Ukraine had requested peacekeepers from the United Nations back in April but was told by Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon that it was not practical. Any UN peacekeeping deployment must be approved the Security Council which Russia is a member and holds veto power.
http://uatoday.tv/politics/don...ekeepers-393715.html
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Kiev reports drop in regular Russian forces in Donbas
Over a thousand Russian soldiers leave Ukraine, National Security and Defense Council
According to a Facebook update on the page of Ukraine's Anti-Terrorist Operation on Tuesday the number of Russian troops in occupied eastern Ukraine has dropped by about 1,000. According to the statement "Instead of [using] regular Russian units, the self-proclaimed republics are trying to create their own armed forces units."
Russia denies sending troops and armour into east Ukraine, despite a growing tome of powerful evidence.
Russian leader Putin similarly denied that Russian troops annexed Ukraine's territory of Crimea in March, but later admitted that they were deployed to lead the land-grab.
Last week, Igor Girkin, a former Russian military intelligence officer and former leader of the insurgency in the Donbas region, claimed he and an elite platoon of Russian troops instigated the bloody conflict, which has claimed approaching 5000 lives
http://uatoday.tv/politics/Kiev-reports-drop-in-regular-russian-forces-in-donbas-393812.html
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Ukraine Deenergised Three Transmission Lines Supplying Crimea with Energy
26.11.2014 23:28
Censor.NET reports citing Rusnovosti.
Blackouts schedule was introduced in the Republic of Crimea today. The representatives of DTEK - the largest energy company in Ukraine, explained that the reason for this decision was the loss of load in the united energy system.
Besides, one more Crimean power line was deenergised for repairs Nov. 17.
The limits introduction immediately affected the energy supply of towns and villages of Crimea: some areas of Simferopol and other cities as well as villages were temporarily without power Wednesday daytime.
Crimea is currently 70% dependent on energy supplies from Ukraine.
http://24today.net/open/221694
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Russia denies sending troops and armour into east Ukraine, despite a growing tome of powerful evidence.
I just saw on TV this Breedlove guy [some big cheese in the US army] is now in Ukraine making speeches, and talking about sending anti-tank missiles and other lethal weaponry to the junta in Ukraine.
This means America is now openly arming the junta, so probably reasonable Russia does the same with those in the east.
The request for UN peacekeepers for Novorossiya is an interesting twist though [that Mike posted above]. Quite a clever move on many levels. Bordering on genius in fact for those that get the implications ether way.
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It could well mean that Russia is pulling out and stranding the terrorists all alone.. They want someone to protect their arses... :ROFL: :ROFL:
Time will tell. :coffeeread:
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I just saw on TV this Breedlove guy [some big cheese in the US army]
If you'd bother to know the player, you'll see that General Breedlove is Air Force not Army and a commander of NATO forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_M._Breedlove
Not that you really want to understand any of this.
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Manny the government in Kiev is no longer a junta as you would put it. They have held elections for both Parliament and the Presidency. And what is the difference between selling arms to the Ukrainian government and what the Russians are doing by supplying rebels with arms and soldiers on vacation leave. Oh I know, the Americans are being open and upfront about it. Maybe if Putin realizes he may not have some of those nice shiny tanks he is allowing his vacationing soldiers to take out on a joyride across an international border come back in one piece, he may think twice about it.
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It could well mean that Russia is pulling out and stranding the terrorists all alone.. They want someone to protect their arses... :ROFL: :ROFL:
Time will tell. :coffeeread:
MIKE id actually think its the opposite , the rebels are calling for peace keepers ? well guess what ? russia is a part of the UN , they have troops close at hand and on the ground there already russia has a UN veto vote,
how do you legetimise the russian troops /weapons already in ukraine , get the rebels to ask for peace keepers , russia says yes, ,there guys are there on the ground and then belatedly russia raises it at the UN , votes for it , wahla you have perfectly legite frozen conflict .same as in moldova where russian peace keepers have been for years
no one in the UN , can really not vote for it given the human crisis there,& would instill another so called ceasefire with peace keepers on the ground in the donbass,
its putins way to out manouvere his chess game opponents over ukraine and NATO
ukraine even with outside weaponry coming to their aid will be stuck in a no win situation ,
rebels &russian soldiers will be able to attack them constantly from within the donbass , while they will not be able to retaliate as they will be seen to be attacking civilians and UN peace keepers
win win for putin as i see it
legitimises his troops in ukraine automatically, locks up the frozen conflict , makes it impossible for ukraine to join nato over any length of time while its in place, , he does not need to annexxe the donbass at all , saves him money and time , achieves most of his aims except the crimean land bridge
SX
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The Russians aren't the only ones with veto powers at the UN Security Council. The terrorists aren't a member of the UN either so I'd think that they wouldn't have standing to request this.
But on that I may be wrong. :snivel:
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The Russians aren't the only ones with veto powers at the UN Security Council. The terrorists aren't a member of the UN either so I'd think that they wouldn't have standing to request this.
But on that I may be wrong. :snivel:
quite true mike ,
however as is usually the russian style , my feeling is they would just announce there troops as being there for ''peace keeping '' similar with the aid convoys , just do it , then use there seat at the UN to make the submission to the UN for ''peace keepers '' and vote for it , be very hard for anyone on the UN to say no , for two reasons ,
first it is the humanitarian issues , second the russians would have troops there already , same as moldova
thirdly , many on the UN would be hoping of some sort of stabilising of the situation in the donbass, regardless of the real nature of russias involvment
personaly id hate to see the above happen , but logically its lookign that way to me if you read between the moves & motives imho
SX
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Forget Russia having UN coverage for this nonsense in Eastern Ukraine. Even the Chinese would veto that one, let alone US, UK & France :chuckle:
PS - can the PPP (Putin Propaganda Platoon) please cease with this 'junta' absurdity. Ukraine has had democratic elections for the Presidency and the Parliament recently. The leadership in Kiev at the moment have been elected by the people, there are no ifs and buts about it. It is a fact and suggesting the contrary is simply absurd.
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I doubt that the UN would even consider Russian troops in there under the UN banner because they are so 'not involved already' with the problem. (despite Manny's pleading to the contrary)
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I just saw on TV this Breedlove guy [some big cheese in the US army] is now in Ukraine making speeches, and talking about sending anti-tank missiles and other lethal weaponry to the junta in Ukraine.
This means America is now openly arming the junta, so probably reasonable Russia does the same with those in the east.
Really? So a US general talks about sending weapons to the Ukraine government, and now you have assumed that the US is now arming Ukraine?
Really Manny, I realise you wish to drum the readers here with your Putin message, but that post of yours was misleading, or are you just choosing to read what you wish was fact?
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I doubt that the UN would even consider Russian troops in there under the UN banner because they are so 'not involved already' with the problem. (despite Manny's pleading to the contrary)
I wouldn't be at all suprised to see a statement from Putin stating that Russian "peacekeepers" have been in Ukraine for months.
The idea of having Russia as part of a UN peacekeeping force in Ukraine it ludicrous.
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ithmus ..Forget Russia having UN coverage for this nonsense in Eastern Ukraine. Even the Chinese would veto that one, let alone US, UK & France
ak mike ..I doubt that the UN would even consider Russian troops in there under the UN banner because they are so 'not involved already' with the problem. (despite Manny's pleading to the contrary)
while i agree the UN would not want russian peacekeepers in the donbass, at present russian troops are there , fact is who would stop putin now claiming his troops are there as the ''called for peace keepers '' , and unveiling them as such ??
no matter if the UN vote for it or not he will have them there, who thinks the UN WILL GO IN A REMOVE THEM ?? nah , not going to happen imo ,
same as crimea, he will keep them there , same as in moldova ,
if the UN dont vote a yes for peace keepers, they will walk into a putin propoganda ambush ,allowing putin to prosecute the EU/US /NATO , in the public eyes , giving some credence to his claims .
ukraine will be stymied as far as military action to a large degree , able to be painted as the aggressor , even though we all know its opposite
SX
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Everyone knows that Russian troops in Ukraine are an aggressor, occupying force. That cat was let out of the bag a long time ago.
The UN Generally Assembly Resolution on Crimea earlier this year was pretty clear in intent, and only voted against by Russia (invoking its veto power) and its assorted international supporters/lackeys (less than a dozen States in total).
There are no PR brownie points for Russia as this conflict passes its first anniversary and the war will inevitably drag on into a second year.
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I wouldn't be at all suprised to see a statement from Putin stating that Russian "peacekeepers" have been in Ukraine for months.
exactly , while it seems totally outragous it allows him domestic support and the rest of the planet ? well he doesnt really care
The idea of having Russia as part of a UN peacekeeping force in Ukraine it ludicrous.
also true ,
but in reality who would go in to remove them ??
SX
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but in reality who would go in to remove them ??
SX
Uh,, Isn't this what Ukraine is trying to do now? (:)
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but in reality who would go in to remove them ??
SX
Uh,, Isn't this what Ukraine is trying to do now? (:)
mike, ahh yes sort of , let me flesh that answer out a bit & understand im not advocating any of the above,
however, at present ukraine is getting support as we all know putin has caused this manipulated conflict he has sourced and supported it , no doubt about it ,
presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
if however putin suddenly has his UN '' RUSSIAN PEACE KEEPERS '' declared as being in ukraine ,& a peace deal/ceasefire is signed who would continue to support ukraines military push to rid them out of the east ??if it was painted as ukraine fighting with peacekeepers ?
in the crimean event , we all knew it was wrong, but no one wanted to make it a conflict , no one will make it a conflict today , he had the ground covered ,
i totally doubt the EU/USA/NATO would do bugger all militarily in the donbass if he makes this move
no one in the west wants to actually take on russia , putin has gambled on this quite heavily , to date he has been correct
while i would be aghast if putin does this , he would turn the tables abit more on ukraines ability to remove these *snip*s for along time imo &their ability to wage war to remove them
frozen conflict for sure
SX
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Putin might try to float the idea of Russia troops in the Donbas and perhaps other areas of Ukraine as peacekeepers but I can't see the UN going for it. Even German chancellor Angela Merkel has had enough of Putin now so the idea that she would accept Russian troops in the Donbas as peacekeepers is not likely to go over well in the EU.
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I understand but no one will (UN) would allow an aggressive nation that's already involved in a war to keep peace in that war.
If they were to take it upon themselves and self declare that they are now peacekeepers, it'sd be that same as what they are now. A terrorist state.
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west coast /mike , while i agree with you , that it would be wrong and not get UN agreement, etc etc
thing is who would actually be prepared to put military forces into action to remove russian peace keepers ??
all he would get is more sanctions, possibly ,
good example is when he sent his aid convoy across the border into ukraine ?? who stopped him ??
yes they all decried it as illegal etc
who controls the border there now ??putin , so again who would stop him from declaring his forces in ukraine as peacekeeprs and what would the EU/USA/NATO actually do ??
imo , nothing much ,
putin must be thinking the same thing too, while it seems outragous &ludicrous to us , he is imo likely to do it
SX
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I'll try to get the old crystal ball fired up for some info..
Now where did I leave that darned thing.. :'(
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Are you going to stop editing my posts? :fighting0025:
I have only edited your posts on that one occasion
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Are you going to stop editing my posts? :fighting0025:
I have only edited your posts on that one occasion
And the answer would be? :coffeeread:
Do you consider it correct let alone honorable to alter and delete others posts to suit your view as you did?
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Are you going to stop editing my posts? :fighting0025:
I have only edited your posts on that one occasion
And the answer would be? :coffeeread:
Do you consider it correct let alone honorable to alter and delete others posts to suit your view as you did?
Mike would you feel better if i publicly apologised to you here???
Well here you go "I apologise"
Now that lets you have the opportunity to take back the insults about my Grammatical spelling and personal insults you posted at that time, all i did was post that your spelling was not so great and altered your post to show you where you the pot was calling the kettle black so to speak.
Not that that will get you down off of your soap box (:)...but who knows you might turn over the page and move on :coffeeread:
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Get off your high horse and back to earth. I pointed out typos.
As someone with " a responsible position' here you should know better than to use your powers to suit you needs. Grow up.
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Get off your high horse and back to earth. I pointed out typos.
As someone with " a responsible position' here you should know better than to use your powers to suit you needs. Grow up.
{sigh} :coffeeread:
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Yeah I didn't figure that you'd be able to understand that part.
Back on ignore! :-X
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=3640.0
In particular this statement from the above -
All Moderators/Admins here are also members. As such, they are free to participate in any discussion as any other member, even if controversial or heated. A Moderator will not moderate in a controversial topic he/she is participating in for obvious reasons.
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Yeah I didn't figure that you'd be able to understand that part.
Back on ignore! :-X
Come on Mikey let it go all that bile floating around wont do you any good, i have already explained myself but you choose not to read (:)
Nothing more can be done for you :coffeeread:
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Yeah I didn't figure that you'd be able to understand that part.
Back on ignore! :-X
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=3640.0
In particular this statement from the above -
All Moderators/Admins here are also members. As such, they are free to participate in any discussion as any other member, even if controversial or heated. A Moderator will not moderate in a controversial topic he/she is participating in for obvious reasons.
OK mike now you altered you post after i had replied
Manny and i have spoken about you and the events, i have done all to correct this with you and gone beyond..so i will now leave this for another Mod to adjudicate
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presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
You do not speak for the world. The "world community" does not support Ukraine. Some do, some don't.
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Manny the government in Kiev is no longer a junta as you would put it. They have held elections for both Parliament and the Presidency.
Some of what they were then claiming to be Ukraine held elections. Not all, so the election was not representative of the whole region.
But using your logic, nothing to complain about in Donbass or Crimea now, as they have also held elections, yes?
You cant have it both ways. You cant pick and choose which elections you see as valid and disregard the ones you don't like.
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Everyone knows that Russian troops in Ukraine are an aggressor, occupying force. That cat was let out of the bag a long time ago.
"Everyone" knows nothing of the sort.
Many know that the EU and America organised the coup, chose some of the players going forward and what the ultimate aim of all of this is. The "aggressor" is the country sticking its beak in thousands of miles from home where it has no place. Again.
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Manny the government in Kiev is no longer a junta as you would put it. They have held elections for both Parliament and the Presidency.
Some of what they were then claiming to be Ukraine held elections. Not all, so the election was not representative of the whole region.
But using your logic, nothing to complain about in Donbass or Crimea now, as they have also held elections, yes?
You cant have it both ways. You cant pick and choose which elections you see as valid and disregard the ones you don't like.
Ditto.
presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
You do not speak for the world. The "world community" does not support Ukraine. Some do, some don't.
Manny, if one reads exclusively the limited quantity of sources in English, without having first-hand info, without having lived in the region, without speaking local languages and without having a credited expertise to analyze such and alike events, they might indeed have the impression that "world community" supports Ukraine, right? Mind you, the presumed world community would include numerous small countries in Europe which have to comply with the foreign policies of EU de jure (for one reason or another), but do not support Ukraine de facto. To illustrate what i am saying, it suffices to google independent surveys which were conducted in the region and compare them to the official positions (and Google has not banned anyone from their services yet, for what i know.)
Everyone knows that Russian troops in Ukraine are an aggressor, occupying force. That cat was let out of the bag a long time ago.
"Everyone" knows nothing of the sort.
Many know that the EU and America organised the coup, chose some of the players going forward and what the ultimate aim of all of this is.
Indeed, more so that this scenario repeats itself ad nauseum... Not sure how can anyone still buy into the propaganda which is shoved down our throats from the other side.
That being said, i do respect the right of Ukrainian people to choose whatever they consider best for themselves, it's that it seems quite childish and naive to believe in this black and white presentation: innocent repressed people from one side, the bloodthirsty aggressor from the other and the good 'ol big brother who protects the right side, solely for the purpose of establishing the democratic heaven on autocratic FSU earth... Sure. tiphat
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
:bow: Manny. I appreciate yours and some other members' capability to point out that the proverbial emperor wears no clothes.
I am afraid though that, had some stopped admiring the (nonexistent) emperor's robes, they would have to redirect their attention to the domestic issues which do shape the US foreign politics - among them at the deciding influence of the military-industrial complex on it. (But, then, of course, it's so much easier to believe in the fairy-tales told by mainstream newspapers, as understanding what Noam Chomsky and other independent thinkers have to say on the matter does require some effort.)
It's been pointed out repeatedly that the most remarkable trait of the Western coverage of Ukrainian turmoil is the (almost absolute) ignoring of the role which far-right and open Nazi paramilitary forces play in the recent affairs, more so it's dismissed as ‘Putin’s propaganda’. As one Ukrainian journalist stated: “If Putin claimed that the Earth is round, the Western media would most likely denounce it as a ‘propagandist’ statement. (Dmitry Kolesnik)." ;D
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
:bow: Manny. I appreciate yours and some other members' capability to point out that the proverbial emperor wears no clothes.
I am afraid though that, had some stopped admiring the (nonexistent) emperor's robes, they would have to redirect their attention to the domestic issues which do shape the US foreign politics - among them at the deciding influence of the military-industrial complex on it. (But, then, of course, it's so much easier to believe in the fairy-tales told by mainstream newspapers, as understanding what Noam Chomsky and other independent thinkers have to say on the matter does require some effort.)
It's been pointed out repeatedly that the most remarkable trait of the Western coverage of Ukrainian turmoil is the (almost absolute) ignoring of the role which far-right and open Nazi paramilitary forces play in the recent affairs, more so it's dismissed as ‘Putin’s propaganda’. As one Ukrainian journalist stated: “If Putin claimed that the Earth is round, the Western media would most likely denounce it as a ‘propagandist’ statement. (Dmitry Kolesnik)." ;D
I can tell you from direct and very real personal experience that it's not the American military-industrial complex hankering for war and conflict. It's the American political system that disincentivizes telling the truth, cutting spending and attempting to compromise.
It rewards kicking the can down the road, finding someone to hate and dividing up the electorate. That's what gets people to vote...so it's what gets people elected. Then those elected "leaders" bring those patterns, which have brought them wealth and power, and use the exact same toolbox when working the international stage.
Now that's a bit over generalized since a nation like the US is not a single voice but many hands trying to control the rudder of the ship. It's a wonder anyone can "make sense" of US foreign policy.
Russia at least now has the advantage of a unified strategy and tactical moves to consistently support said strategy. Don't get me wrong, I would NOT want to live in Russia. I absolutely love living in the United States and there's no place I'd rather be. But I hope that gives you a little more insight into:
"The View From The American Side on the Subject of Foreign Policy"
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
:bow: Manny. I appreciate yours and some other members' capability to point out that the proverbial emperor wears no clothes.
I am afraid though that, had some stopped admiring the (nonexistent) emperor's robes, they would have to redirect their attention to the domestic issues which do shape the US foreign politics - among them at the deciding influence of the military-industrial complex on it. (But, then, of course, it's so much easier to believe in the fairy-tales told by mainstream newspapers, as understanding what Noam Chomsky and other independent thinkers have to say on the matter does require some effort.)
It's been pointed out repeatedly that the most remarkable trait of the Western coverage of Ukrainian turmoil is the (almost absolute) ignoring of the role which far-right and open Nazi paramilitary forces play in the recent affairs, more so it's dismissed as ‘Putin’s propaganda’. As one Ukrainian journalist stated: “If Putin claimed that the Earth is round, the Western media would most likely denounce it as a ‘propagandist’ statement. (Dmitry Kolesnik)." ;D
I can tell you from direct and very real personal experience that it's not the American military-industrial complex hankering for war and conflict. It's the American political system that disincentivizes telling the truth, cutting spending and attempting to compromise.
It rewards kicking the can down the road, finding someone to hate and dividing up the electorate. That's what gets people to vote...so it's what gets people elected. Then those elected "leaders" bring those patterns, which have brought them wealth and power, and use the exact same toolbox when working the international stage.
Now that's a bit over generalized since a nation like the US is not a single voice but many hands trying to control the rudder of the ship. It's a wonder anyone can "make sense" of US foreign policy.
Russia at least now has the advantage of a unified strategy and tactical moves to consistently support said strategy. Don't get me wrong, I would NOT want to live in Russia. I absolutely love living in the United States and there's no place I'd rather be. But I hope that gives you a little more insight into:
"The View From The American Side on the Subject of Foreign Policy"
I respect your analyze, Griffin, because i do know that you know what you are talking about. It does absolutely give more insight into some aspects of the American side (and yours is the kind of post i love reading and learning from).
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Several people have posted her about boarders. This is why no boraders are coming any time soon. This is also why the end of the conflick is no where near over. http://www.globalresearch.ca/donetsk-peoples-republic-dpr-to-lay-claim-over-entire-donetsk-region/5415849
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presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
You do not speak for the world. The "world community" does not support Ukraine. Some do, some don't.
LOL ,,
100 countries voted in support of ukraine at the UN , in regards to putins invasion of ukraine sovereign territory , thats a fair /general level of world support id say
SX
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
It's been pointed out repeatedly that the most remarkable trait of the Western coverage of Ukrainian turmoil is the (almost absolute) ignoring of the role which far-right and open Nazi paramilitary forces play in the recent affairs, more so it's dismissed as ‘Putin’s propaganda’.
Volshe what is this fascination with the far right politics in Ukraine? If one Google's 'far right Russia' (or some variant) there's an endless number of articles and images. Some articles will state these far right organizations not only support Putin/Kremlin but that Putin/Kremlin actively supports them. So it's now established that Ukraine and Russia both have far right organizations that support the respective governments and the governments in turn support the far right organizations.
Why is Ukraine's far right any different from the far right in Russia? Putin's reelection in 2012 was controversial and there's no telling how much the far right helped in that. After all the 2012 Russian elections weren't exactly run with a great deal of transparency. :laugh:
There's also far right politicians in most European countries, all with varying degrees of support. In fact Ukip, Manny's favourite UK party, has been described as far right and worse by UK media and it is currently enjoying increased support.
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
It's been pointed out repeatedly that the most remarkable trait of the Western coverage of Ukrainian turmoil is the (almost absolute) ignoring of the role which far-right and open Nazi paramilitary forces play in the recent affairs, more so it's dismissed as ‘Putin’s propaganda’.
Volshe what is this fascination with the far right politics in Ukraine? If one Google's 'far right Russia' (or some variant) there's an endless number of articles and images. Some articles will state these far right organizations not only support Putin/Kremlin but that Putin/Kremlin actively supports them. So it's now established that Ukraine and Russia both have far right organizations that support the respective governments and the governments in turn support the far right organizations.
Why is Ukraine's far right any different from the far right in Russia? Putin's reelection in 2012 was controversial and there's no telling how much the far right helped in that. After all the 2012 Russian elections weren't exactly run with a great deal of transparency. :laugh:
There's also far right politicians in most European countries, all with varying degrees of support. In fact Ukip, Manny's favourite UK party, has been described as far right and worse by UK media and it is currently enjoying increased support.
West, for example: if you check U.S. dept. of state 'fact sheet' and the '10 false claims about Ukraine', it says:
10. Mr. Putin says: The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.
The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.
False.
Parubiy (who resigned meanwhile) was the secretary of the Ukrainian National Security at the time of release, not to forget Oleksandar Sych, member of Svoboda, who is, ironically, responsible for humanitarian policies, ethnic and religious issues.
Svoboda is one of the three parties which WJC, umbrella organization representing Jewish communities in 100 + countries, called on the EU to ban (and to get gvmnts of Hungary, Greece and Ukraine to sign the 2009 London Declaration on Combating Anti-Semitism).
Even experts who in no way support Russian foreign politics (P. A. Rudling for example) warn that with seven ministers with links to the extreme right, Europe should pay great attention to the politics of the new regime.
U.S. has openly negative stance towards Hungarian's Orban gvmnt, calls its' actions a 'target to civil cosiety', more so six members of that gvmnt were banned from entering the U.S.
Greece's Golden Dawn, classified as 'criminal organization' and being a direct threat to the EU project, is about to be banned.
Even Hungarian Orban himself keeps the distance from Svoboda and is even (after 25y) kindling the bilateral relations with Russia, so not to be in anyway connected to the followers of Bandera's ethnic cleansing.
So, you tell me, how come this party got Western support in Ukraine and do you really, but really think that they would let them anywhere close to EU?
No bloody way. The point is exclusively to destabilize Russia.
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presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
You do not speak for the world. The "world community" does not support Ukraine. Some do, some don't.
LOL ,,
100 countries voted in support of ukraine at the UN , in regards to putins invasion of ukraine sovereign territory , thats a fair /general level of world support id say
SX
The biggest country in the world and the most populous country in the world disagree with you. Ruminate on that.
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presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
You do not speak for the world. The "world community" does not support Ukraine. Some do, some don't.
LOL ,,
100 countries voted in support of ukraine at the UN , in regards to putins invasion of ukraine sovereign territory , thats a fair /general level of world support id say
SX
The biggest country in the world and the most populous country in the world disagree with you. Ruminate on that.
Russia voted against the resolution. China abstained.
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Volshe, very well said. :bow:
It's been pointed out repeatedly that the most remarkable trait of the Western coverage of Ukrainian turmoil is the (almost absolute) ignoring of the role which far-right and open Nazi paramilitary forces play in the recent affairs, more so it's dismissed as ‘Putin’s propaganda’.
Volshe what is this fascination with the far right politics in Ukraine? If one Google's 'far right Russia' (or some variant) there's an endless number of articles and images. Some articles will state these far right organizations not only support Putin/Kremlin but that Putin/Kremlin actively supports them. So it's now established that Ukraine and Russia both have far right organizations that support the respective governments and the governments in turn support the far right organizations.
Why is Ukraine's far right any different from the far right in Russia? Putin's reelection in 2012 was controversial and there's no telling how much the far right helped in that. After all the 2012 Russian elections weren't exactly run with a great deal of transparency. :laugh:
There's also far right politicians in most European countries, all with varying degrees of support. In fact Ukip, Manny's favourite UK party, has been described as far right and worse by UK media and it is currently enjoying increased support.
West, for example: if you check U.S. dept. of state 'fact sheet' and the '10 false claims about Ukraine', it says:
10. Mr. Putin says: The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.
The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.
False.
Parubiy (who resigned meanwhile) was the secretary of the Ukrainian National Security at the time of release, not to forget Oleksandar Sych, member of Svoboda, who is, ironically, responsible for humanitarian policies, ethnic and religious issues.
Svoboda is one of the three parties which WJC, umbrella organization representing Jewish communities in 100 + countries, called on the EU to ban (and to get gvmnts of Hungary, Greece and Ukraine to sign the 2009 London Declaration on Combating Anti-Semitism).
Even experts who in no way support Russian foreign politics (P. A. Rudling for example) warn that with seven ministers with links to the extreme right, Europe should pay great attention to the politics of the new regime.
U.S. has openly negative stance towards Hungarian's Orban gvmnt, calls its' actions a 'target to civil cosiety', more so six members of that gvmnt were banned from entering the U.S.
Greece's Golden Dawn, classified as 'criminal organization' and being a direct threat to the EU project, is about to be banned.
Even Hungarian Orban himself keeps the distance from Svoboda and is even (after 25y) kindling the bilateral relations with Russia, so not to be in anyway connected to the followers of Bandera's ethnic cleansing.
So, you tell me, how come this party got Western support in Ukraine and do you really, but really think that they would let them anywhere close to EU?
No bloody way. The point is exclusively to destabilize Russia.
Volshe Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe of that there is no doubt. However, Russia is not far behind and is also very corrupt. In fact for a while Ukraine and Russia were alternating back and forth as to which was more corrupt. Currently it is Ukraine but in a couple of years who knows I simply don't see anyway Russia is going to get less corrupt.
Of course there are corrupt politicians in the Ukrainian government. There are also corrupt politicians in the Russian government. This is the reason why Ukraine must break from Russia and join the EU it is the only way Ukraine will be able to break/reduce the corruption that is literally endemic to Ukrainian politics.
As for the US supporting corrupt political organizations pretty well every government does it (even regrettably Canada), again including Russia. Russia supports Syria, Iran and a number of other corrupt governments around the world.
As for whether or not the US/EU coalition would like to see a regime change in Russia I'd say that's probably true. Do I think Russia would like to see a Russia friendly Ukrainian government? I'd say most definitely. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Russia would like to see regime changes in the US and EU that are more Russia friendly, however Russia doesn't have the resources to pull it off.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/04/224759.htm
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/04/224759.htm
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presently ukraine is fighting rebels/russia who have invaded with russias help etc etc so we [ the general world community ]support ukraine
You do not speak for the world. The "world community" does not support Ukraine. Some do, some don't.
LOL ,,
100 countries voted in support of ukraine at the UN , in regards to putins invasion of ukraine sovereign territory , thats a fair /general level of world support id say
SX
The biggest country in the world and the most populous country in the world disagree with you. Ruminate on that.
Oh, and many of those who sort-of agree, in fact do not; example - Monte had to introduce sanctions for some Russian officials, but our own Prime yesterday said that it is wrong (literally).
http://mondo.me/a409794/Info/Crna-Gora/Djukanovic-Sankcije-Rusiji-nisu-pravi-put.html
There is stuff you have to do, as an EU candidate-member, which doesn't mean you actually approve those measures and see them justified.
But then we'd get to discussing ex-Yu again, and how a big non-aligning country was deconstructed and divided into half of dozen of small countries which have to comply... (which i don't negate is due to our own stupidity mainly ;))
ETA for typos
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In fact I'd go so far as to say that Russia would like to see regime changes in the US and EU that are more Russia friendly, however Russia doesn't have the resources to pull it off.
But you do. Actually, Republican gvmnts have better bilateral relations with Russia, then the current U.S. regime (with us too, despite my former support of Obama).
p.s. West, sorry, not you personally, i know you don't vote in US, but generic you, as in North Americans. (Sorry it's still early morning for me.)
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In fact I'd go so far as to say that Russia would like to see regime changes in the US and EU that are more Russia friendly, however Russia doesn't have the resources to pull it off.
I have to disagree. There is now the case of a Russian bank lending money to Le Pen and the Front National in France :-X I am sure that this loan was vetted by some government official in the Kremlin. According to the information that came out: "Moscow-based First Czech-Russian Bank had lent the far-right Front National party €9m for its election fund" and this was going to be but the first slice of funds lent to the party.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/27/russia-exerts-influence-france-with-tree-diplomacy-loans-le-pen (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/27/russia-exerts-influence-france-with-tree-diplomacy-loans-le-pen)
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So the main news driving trading on Friday was a decision made Thursday by the OPEC oil cartel to keep production at 30 million barrels a day. That announcement hit oil prices hard as traders expect the global supply of oil to stay high. Crude oil slumped 8 percent to $67.46 in the late afternoon. :o
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/29/business/daily-stock-market-activity.html?_r=0
The ruble went down to 49.52 against the dollar by 12:30 MSK Friday, weaker than the previous close at 49.28 rubles per dollar. The ruble’s rate to the euro has hit a record 61.63. :snivel:
Russian dependence on oil exports makes the ruble and ruble-denominated assets vulnerable to changes in the oil price.
http://rt.com/business/209659-russian-index-record-low/
Gazprom is so poor that the Russian government felt sorry for them and thanks to their generosity Gazprom doesn't have to pay tax for 15 years... (:)
http://inforesist.org/putin-na-15-let-osvobodil-gazprom-ot-nalogov/
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Russia might have a problem. :eeekk:
Oil could plummet to $35 a barrel next year if OPEC doesn't reach an agreement by the spring, oil price tracker Tom Kloza said Wednesday.
The founder of Oil Price Information Services told CNBC's "Squawk Box" that he expects at least a "lip service agreement" from OPEC members Thursday, when they meet to discuss output, but the members will largely ignore it, creating a bigger crisis in about six months.
"When you look at the second half of 2015, that's when you see oil beginning to dwarf demand by about a million, a million and a half barrels a day," he said. "Thirty-five dollars is a possibility if they don't get an agreement next spring because that's when the oil really starts to build and you can have a billion barrels of oil with really no place to put it."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102219498
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Russia might have a problem. :eeekk:
Oil could plummet to $35 a barrel next year if OPEC doesn't reach an agreement by the spring, oil price tracker Tom Kloza said Wednesday.
The founder of Oil Price Information Services told CNBC's "Squawk Box" that he expects at least a "lip service agreement" from OPEC members Thursday, when they meet to discuss output, but the members will largely ignore it, creating a bigger crisis in about six months.
"When you look at the second half of 2015, that's when you see oil beginning to dwarf demand by about a million, a million and a half barrels a day," he said. "Thirty-five dollars is a possibility if they don't get an agreement next spring because that's when the oil really starts to build and you can have a billion barrels of oil with really no place to put it."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102219498
The problem with OPEC setting prices for oil is at least twofold. One OPEC simply doesn't have the power to set pricing that it had in the 70s. Two, even when OPEC does set prices OPEC members constantly cheat and produce more oil at lower prices thereby undercutting any efforts to keep oil prices high.
If $35/barrel oil or even $50/barrel happens Russia's oil revenue will literally be cut in half or worse, that can't be good.
Mike is the Alaskan state government still handing out dividend cheques from the state oil revenues to all Alaskan residents ? If so does the dropping price of oil mean smaller cheques?
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Yes we still get the dividend checks.
And no the check isn't totally based of the price of oil. The oil money is invested and the check is based on a 5 year average of the profits from those investments. Some years are good and some years are much better.
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also. Opec feels it is pointless for them to cut producton just to let Russia get a bigger market share. The trouble with all of this if they keep the price of oil high like around 80 dollars a barrel the US will just drill more and drive the price down again. For the next few years it looks like oil producers may have a problem.
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also. Opec feels it is pointless for them to cut producton just to let Russia get a bigger market share. The trouble with all of this if they keep the price of oil high like around 80 dollars a barrel the US will just drill more and drive the price down again. For the next few years it looks like oil producers may have a problem.
From a completely self interested perspective I say "Good!" I see it as the only way we'll see real industry investment in alternative industry sources. Forcing it on business by federal regulation only takes you so far.
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also. Opec feels it is pointless for them to cut producton just to let Russia get a bigger market share. The trouble with all of this if they keep the price of oil high like around 80 dollars a barrel the US will just drill more and drive the price down again. For the next few years it looks like oil producers may have a problem.
From a completely self interested perspective I say "Good!" I see it as the only way we'll see real industry investment in alternative industry sources. Forcing it on business by federal regulation only takes you so far.
The worst thing for OPEC, Russia and other oil exporting countries would be for a Republican president to win in 2016. Then some/many/most of the current restrictions on drilling for oil would be lifted and the US would be producing even more oil. Combine that with increases in oil from fracking and it's OPEC and the oil producing countries worst nightmare come true.
As for investments in alternative energy sources I doubt low oil prices will discourage investment. There are some very promising alternative energy ideas being developed, lots of money to be made in the coming decade(s).
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In fact I'd go so far as to say that Russia would like to see regime changes in the US and EU that are more Russia friendly, however Russia doesn't have the resources to pull it off.
But you do. Actually, Republican gvmnts have better bilateral relations with Russia, then the current U.S. regime (with us too, despite my former support of Obama).
p.s. West, sorry, not you personally, i know you don't vote in US, but generic you, as in North Americans. (Sorry it's still early morning for me.)
This is because Republican governments are the most predictable. You may not like all their policies, but at least they have some...and are much more likely to keep their word than democratic governments. There's a lot to be said for both of those things for allies and competitors alike.
Obama...before I take the bait and go on a rant, I'll just say that he does not really fit into either of those small but important categories. (:)
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also.
This may be part of the Saudi strategy. The fact is that Russia's in running out of cheap oil (the oil fields developed during Soviet times or the easy fields developed these past few years) and in order to maintain production, they will need to invest huge sums (hundreds of billions) and they will need IIRC Western technology to do it. Imagine a scenario where oil prices are at $40 a barrel for two years. Russia will have no reserves left, sanctions are still cutting off its access to capital and technology, while its production is falling as old fields are no longer producing.... Saudi Arabia would be sitting pretty then.
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also.
This may be part of the Saudi strategy. The fact is that Russia's in running out of cheap oil (the oil fields developed during Soviet times or the easy fields developed these past few years) and in order to maintain production, they will need to invest huge sums (hundreds of billions) and they will need IIRC Western technology to do it. Imagine a scenario where oil prices are at $40 a barrel for two years. Russia will have no reserves left, sanctions are still cutting off its access to capital and technology, while its production is falling as old fields are no longer producing.... Saudi Arabia would be sitting pretty then.
Now that's a perspective I hadn't considered before. Interesting point Rasputin.
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also.
This may be part of the Saudi strategy. The fact is that Russia's in running out of cheap oil (the oil fields developed during Soviet times or the easy fields developed these past few years) and in order to maintain production, they will need to invest huge sums (hundreds of billions) and they will need IIRC Western technology to do it. Imagine a scenario where oil prices are at $40 a barrel for two years. Russia will have no reserves left, sanctions are still cutting off its access to capital and technology, while its production is falling as old fields are no longer producing.... Saudi Arabia would be sitting pretty then.
The Saudis are probably more worried about Iran although Russia and Iran have been doing some increased trade of late so it's probably both. Iran is in somewhat the same situation as Russia as it needs to upgrade its tech for the oil industry if its wants to remain competitive. A prolonged period of low oil prices would be bad news for Iran.
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Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also.
This may be part of the Saudi strategy. The fact is that Russia's in running out of cheap oil (the oil fields developed during Soviet times or the easy fields developed these past few years) and in order to maintain production, they will need to invest huge sums (hundreds of billions) and they will need IIRC Western technology to do it. Imagine a scenario where oil prices are at $40 a barrel for two years. Russia will have no reserves left, sanctions are still cutting off its access to capital and technology, while its production is falling as old fields are no longer producing.... Saudi Arabia would be sitting pretty then.
The Saudis are probably more worried about Iran although Russia and Iran have been doing some increased trade of late so it's probably both. Iran is in somewhat the same situation as Russia as it needs to upgrade its tech for the oil industry if its wants to remain competitive. A prolonged period of low oil prices would be bad news for Iran.
Yes, killing two birds with one stone, while also choking off the growth of oil shale as an added bonus.
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Interesting, yet highly unlikely that oil goes to $40, much less stays there for an extended period.
Was part of the American/Saudi plan to put added pressure on the sanctions to Russia and Iran? :) Don't think for a minute that America isn't whispering in their ear. There are other factors as well to keep the price down, which seem contradictory, such as the threat from US shale producers and source funding for regime change in the region.
OPEC isn't the big bad "oil" wolf it once was with regard to controlling the market price.
The Saudis can afford to keep prices low for awhile as their break even point is much less than many other oil producing countries, including some in OPEC. Greed is an interesting thing though, and excuse me if I've seen this movie before. I just don't see oil prices staying down for any extended period. Not with the pressure from climate backers for alternative sources creating a take what you can get now attitude, and as I mentioned, an opportunity for the Saudis to lower production from competing nations and eventually raising prices in the long run.
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There is another factor: slowing Chinese growth putting a damper on demand. Greater production + decreased demand = lower oil prices likely for a couple of years at least. http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/why-the-collapse-in-oil-prices-is-such-a-huge-win-for-china/article21824558/?service=mobile&click=sf_globefb
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Not just China Rasputin, but the economic problems in the Eurozone, Japan and Brazil as well. All of which has added to the dip. Nevertheless, it would be crazy to think anyone can correctly predict anything more than 6 months ahead, as we've seen with global situations. IMO, oil prices are even less predictable.
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Not just China Rasputin, but the economic problems in the Eurozone, Japan and Brazil as well. All of which has added to the dip. Nevertheless, it would be crazy to think anyone can correctly predict anything more than 6 months ahead, as we've seen with global situations. IMO, oil prices are even less predictable.
Why is it "impossible"? Sure, you can't predict it down to the penny, but there are global trends, and those trends don't turn on a dime :biggrin: The global economy slowing down is one of those trends, and increased oil and natural gas production is also one of those trends. Neither when combined will lead to oil prices topping $100 per barrel anytime soon.
Also, there was an intriguing news story that was largely overlooked this past week. Volkswagon unveiled two models for a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle. Thus this year you have a major Japanese and German car manufacturer announcing that they can produce hydrogen-cell cars. These vehicles can compete with gasoline in terms of distance that can be driven with a full tank. Also, they may help to address the issue of what to do with excess electricity produced by wind or solar power: use it to make hydrogen. All that is missing is for a country to establish a national network of hydrogen stations for refuelling. Which will be first? Such innovation will help to keep oil prices from skyrocketing in the future...
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Suggestions about future Russian development costs are bunk because of one word 'future'; you see the world is dynamic, it changes along the time dimension. If nothing changed then pundits suggesting future problems as a result of actions possibly being taken today might, just might, have a point.
Here's a spooky fact, oil and gas do not go stale by remaining under the ground. Russia has huge reserves of hydrocarbons under development right now and at very low cost. Yes, they are finite, but their time horizon is in decades. New development can be done at any time. Right now the Vietnamese have done a deal with Russia in respect of Arctic oil. There will be more of these deals. Technology and knowledge is not resident in the brains of one nationality but is the ultimate in fungible goods. Knowledge flows very effectively across borders.
Look at it this way, in the U.S absent the presence of Asian minds a large proportion of Doctorate level research in 'hard' subjects simply would not exist. Not enough USAians with the level of skill required. Where do you think that the knowledge learned and technologies developed end up?
What this insight tells us is that this short term action in respect of oil, and I am not at all convinced that it is a conspiracy or collusion, will pass. High cost producers such as shale and sand will be hit hard. Russian oil, with costs of development amortised a decade or more ago, is very cheap, some suggest less than $10 per barrel at the wellhead. Refining and transport adds another $10.
The production costs that we see for oil usually includes the sunk costs of development, debt repayments and an allowance for future development. Accountants know that we can ignore sunk costs in investment decisions and future development can be postponed. This is just accounting stuff.
The problem is for new developments where debt repayments are high (not a big issue in Russia) or where the development cycle is very short as in the unconventional hydrocarbons from the US. The U.S can not keep current production levels without ongoing debt and development costs. Thus output will start to fall.
I don't think that the oil price issue is a U.S plot because the evidence is that we are currently in a state of overproduction. Demand globally is weak due to macro economic problems. Basically not enough people are buying stuff so less oil is needed to make the stuff that we need.
Oil producers are not incentivised to cut production, in fact as prices fall they seek to recoup lost revenue by increasing sales at the lower price which leads to a simple vicious cycle of maintained or increased output leading to greater oversupply and thus lower prices.
No need for a conspiracy theory, just very basic economics.
In this game the last man standing is the winner. Here Russia and Saudi Arabia are likely to tie for the gold medal. Each for slightly different reasons.
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Why is it "impossible"? Sure, you can't predict it down to the penny, but there are global trends, and those trends don't turn on a dime :biggrin: The global economy slowing down is one of those trends, and increased oil and natural gas production is also one of those trends. Neither when combined will lead to oil prices topping $100 per barrel anytime soon.
I don't know, seems to me nobody predicted the dramatic drop this year. Am I suppose to think anyone else has the answer in the future? Sure we can all make educated guesses, but even those remain guesses.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-the-drop-in-oil-prices-caught-so-many-by-surprise-1414526075
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Why is it "impossible"? Sure, you can't predict it down to the penny, but there are global trends, and those trends don't turn on a dime :biggrin: The global economy slowing down is one of those trends, and increased oil and natural gas production is also one of those trends. Neither when combined will lead to oil prices topping $100 per barrel anytime soon.
I don't know, seems to me nobody predicted the dramatic drop this year. Am I suppose to think anyone else has the answer in the future? Sure we can all make educated guesses, but even those remain guesses.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-the-drop-in-oil-prices-caught-so-many-by-surprise-1414526075
This from the article I cited: "In mid-September, more than a month before Goldman Sachs rocked markets with its prediction that oil prices would fall to $70 a barrel, Mr. Xie told a conference in Kuwait that he expected oil prices to nosedive to $60. The audience laughed. Now, he’s being invited back to speak again."
Most people are always caught "by surprise" because they get caught in wishful thinking or simply ignore the indicators.... There were a number of people predicting the housing crash in the United States, but they were ignored by those who thought that bubbles can grow indefinitely :-X
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In fact I'd go so far as to say that Russia would like to see regime changes in the US and EU that are more Russia friendly, however Russia doesn't have the resources to pull it off.
I have to disagree. There is now the case of a Russian bank lending money to Le Pen and the Front National in France :-X I am sure that this loan was vetted by some government official in the Kremlin. According to the information that came out: "Moscow-based First Czech-Russian Bank had lent the far-right Front National party €9m for its election fund" and this was going to be but the first slice of funds lent to the party.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/27/russia-exerts-influence-france-with-tree-diplomacy-loans-le-pen (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/27/russia-exerts-influence-france-with-tree-diplomacy-loans-le-pen)
Very informative article, Rasputin, thanks for sharing! Two things strike me:
1. French are starting to adopt "Christmas is insulting" attitude and that's dead wrong imho. If anyone, they could benefit from pro-right politics, they do have a problem with immigration from former colonies.
2. I need to expand on the right wing in Europe: despite the official EU policy being "united in diversity", behind the scenes it seems that many 'flirt' with their own right parties, for various reasons; in countries where democracies are of a newer kind, right parties which are constituted mainly from football fans are connected with the state churches and are one of the important means of governmental control (see Serbia for example);
slightly different is the situation in more stable democracies, which have issues with new immigrants from former colonies.
Old Europe has let in too many immigrants and refugees, to the extent that its' own system of values and traditional way of life is threatened to be overtaken. No one knows what is the way out, as of yet. (Sadly?) you can't do here what Israel does - send them home, unless there is actual war where they come from and also, erect walls so to protect what you've build for your people, not for aliens who'll potentially finish your people (by becoming a majority over years.)
There is an interesting development as of lately in Europe, albeit it's been a case for a long time in US, (see Belgium for example) where right parties are becoming pro-Israel... Myself i am interested in which direction will this tendency grow :popcorn:
Opec has said it will not cut production unless Russia will also.
This may be part of the Saudi strategy. The fact is that Russia's in running out of cheap oil (the oil fields developed during Soviet times or the easy fields developed these past few years) and in order to maintain production, they will need to invest huge sums (hundreds of billions) and they will need IIRC Western technology to do it. Imagine a scenario where oil prices are at $40 a barrel for two years. Russia will have no reserves left, sanctions are still cutting off its access to capital and technology, while its production is falling as old fields are no longer producing.... Saudi Arabia would be sitting pretty then.
Now that's a perspective I hadn't considered before. Interesting point Rasputin.
Yes indeed, i second Griffin.
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The Saudis are probably more worried about Iran although Russia and Iran have been doing some increased trade of late so it's probably both. Iran is in somewhat the same situation as Russia as it needs to upgrade its tech for the oil industry if its wants to remain competitive. A prolonged period of low oil prices would be bad news for Iran.
An important point. Russia is also developing relations with Pakistan, playing thus more on the Asian part of the Euro-Asian equation. That's only logical because there are still allies in Europe, but no strategical partners (or former satellites), those are gone to EU for better or for worse. Religion is an issue though with developing close ties with Iran and Pakistan (not to mention that it's extremely difficult to increase trade with Pakistan). Anyway it is, i think global geo-politics haven't been this interesting ever since the fall of the wall :popcorn:
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Why is it "impossible"? Sure, you can't predict it down to the penny, but there are global trends, and those trends don't turn on a dime :biggrin: The global economy slowing down is one of those trends, and increased oil and natural gas production is also one of those trends. Neither when combined will lead to oil prices topping $100 per barrel anytime soon.
I don't know, seems to me nobody predicted the dramatic drop this year. Am I suppose to think anyone else has the answer in the future? Sure we can all make educated guesses, but even those remain guesses.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-the-drop-in-oil-prices-caught-so-many-by-surprise-1414526075
This from the article I cited: "In mid-September, more than a month before Goldman Sachs rocked markets with its prediction that oil prices would fall to $70 a barrel, Mr. Xie told a conference in Kuwait that he expected oil prices to nosedive to $60. The audience laughed. Now, he’s being invited back to speak again."
Most people are always caught "by surprise" because they get caught in wishful thinking or simply ignore the indicators.... There were a number of people predicting the housing crash in the United States, but they were ignored by those who thought that bubbles can grow indefinitely :-X
Experts, all of them, are right some of the time and wrong others. Just because someone gets it right, doesn't mean he always gets it right. Mr Xie is renown for his bold predictions, so when he's right he looks like a genius, as do most bold predictors when they're right.
Mr Xie has been saying the Chinese real estate market bubble would collapse since 2004, yet it has gone up 300% since that time. I imagine that one of these years he'll be right. I mean the indicators have been there all this time.
It has nothing to do with wishful thinking. Indicators can give you an idea, but they don't factor in unpredictable situations that can change a market's direction. Recent history has shown that the world is much too volatile these days to rely solely on indicators. And unless this guy is 100% right all the time, and he's not, then all he did as far as I'm concerned is get it right this time.
And when I said "nobody" I meant the vast majority, so let's not get caught up on that.
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Indicators can give you an idea, but they don't factor in unpredictable situations that can change a market's direction. Recent history has shown that the world is much too volatile these days to rely solely on indicators.
Ditto. More so that trends and developments of Russia (and FSU in general, except Baltic countries) is rather absolutely unpredictable by default;
mind you, out of 70 official institutions in the US who were devoted exclusively to the analyzes of SSSR, until the very end not a single one predicted it's dissolution. (Certain Ashcenazic rabbis did though, with quite precise timing too.)
AND those institutions used all kinds of methodologies, including ones which are more in the domain of fortune telling: a picture from 9th of May parade would be studied, where Secretary General stood and who surrounded him, by the distance of a member of the party from the gensec, their influence was calculated... :reading:
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Why is it "impossible"? Sure, you can't predict it down to the penny, but there are global trends, and those trends don't turn on a dime :biggrin: The global economy slowing down is one of those trends, and increased oil and natural gas production is also one of those trends. Neither when combined will lead to oil prices topping $100 per barrel anytime soon.
I don't know, seems to me nobody predicted the dramatic drop this year. Am I suppose to think anyone else has the answer in the future? Sure we can all make educated guesses, but even those remain guesses.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-the-drop-in-oil-prices-caught-so-many-by-surprise-1414526075
This from the article I cited: "In mid-September, more than a month before Goldman Sachs rocked markets with its prediction that oil prices would fall to $70 a barrel, Mr. Xie told a conference in Kuwait that he expected oil prices to nosedive to $60. The audience laughed. Now, he’s being invited back to speak again."
Most people are always caught "by surprise" because they get caught in wishful thinking or simply ignore the indicators.... There were a number of people predicting the housing crash in the United States, but they were ignored by those who thought that bubbles can grow indefinitely :-X
Experts, all of them, are right some of the time and wrong others. Just because someone gets it right, doesn't mean he always gets it right. Mr Xie is renown for his bold predictions, so when he's right he looks like a genius, as do most bold predictors when they're right.
Mr Xie has been saying the Chinese real estate market bubble would collapse since 2004, yet it has gone up 300% since that time. I imagine that one of these years he'll be right. I mean the indicators have been there all this time.
It has nothing to do with wishful thinking. Indicators can give you an idea, but they don't factor in unpredictable situations that can change a market's direction. Recent history has shown that the world is much too volatile these days to rely solely on indicators. And unless this guy is 100% right all the time, and he's not, then all he did as far as I'm concerned is get it right this time.
And when I said "nobody" I meant the vast majority, so let's not get caught up on that.
Housing booms and busts tend to be a bit harder to pin down as to an exact date as to when the bubble will burst. The Chinese state also spent a lot of money during the crisis to keep it inflated and to patch up the holes when they appeared. You can also continue building empty malls and cities if the political will is there. It is harder to keep an oil bubble: there are so many tankers you can keep afloat on the ocean with surplus oil you can't sell and you have many states and companies in competition to sell their goods...
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Housing booms and busts tend to be a bit harder to pin down as to an exact date as to when the bubble will burst. The Chinese state also spent a lot of money during the crisis to keep it inflated and to patch up the holes when they appeared. You can also continue building empty malls and cities if the political will is there. It is harder to keep an oil bubble: there are so many tankers you can keep afloat on the ocean with surplus oil you can't sell and you have many states and companies in competition to sell their goods...
sorry in advance for :offtopic:, but...
did you know that historical Rasputin was introduced to the Russian Court by two Montenegrin princesses with heavy interest in the occult, both married into Romanov dynasty, Anastazija - Stana and Milica (King Nikola's daughters)?
ok, back to the usual programming ;D
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Housing booms and busts tend to be a bit harder to pin down as to an exact date as to when the bubble will burst.
I dunno, they pretty much called the one in America in 2006, and I mean many called it.
The Chinese state also spent a lot of money during the crisis to keep it inflated and to patch up the holes when they appeared. You can also continue building empty malls and cities if the political will is there. It is harder to keep an oil bubble: there are so many tankers you can keep afloat on the ocean with surplus oil you can't sell and you have many states and companies in competition to sell their goods...
Can't disagree with too much here, but oil was way over heated in 2008 at $147 a barrel, $90-100 circa 2014 seems less of a bubble market and more the norm all things considered. While $60 a barrel short term wouldn't completely surprise me, $40 IMO won't happen. If it does (and I also doubt it will stay at that price very long), you can be sure I'll stand corrected.
When it comes to oil, regardless of where the competition is coming from, I tend to put my money on greed being the ultimate indicator when predicting price long term. :)
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Why is it "impossible"? Sure, you can't predict it down to the penny, but there are global trends, and those trends don't turn on a dime :biggrin: The global economy slowing down is one of those trends, and increased oil and natural gas production is also one of those trends. Neither when combined will lead to oil prices topping $100 per barrel anytime soon.
I don't know, seems to me nobody predicted the dramatic drop this year. Am I suppose to think anyone else has the answer in the future? Sure we can all make educated guesses, but even those remain guesses.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-the-drop-in-oil-prices-caught-so-many-by-surprise-1414526075
Oddly enough the signs of a coming oil price fall were evident a few months ago.
Just a small thing as it seemed at the time. China was reporting lower energy consumption than expected. This was a sign of a slowdown in their manufacturing and thus a sign of a global economic slowdown. The article I read at the time referred to the impact on oil prices.
Of course there's a lead time and that's what happened.
China is taking advantage of the lower pricing and buying huge amounts of oil for future use.
Predicting near term events is not too hard if one is looking at the right data inputs and one knows the basics of macroeconomics. Almost certainly people in energy companies around the world were less surprised than we were. Of course these firms' mouthpieces tell the story they want us to hear.
Usually examination of the market fundamentals is enough to enable a good guess as to the future. That gets harder as the scale gets smaller.
Given that there is lag in the system it may take some time for the new pricing paradigm to result in natural market forces closing down costly production, such as in the U.S, maybe a year or more. That'll lead to overshoot in pricing. So prices will fall further but will recover to their new market clearing levels. My guess is that, with the current global economy the price is at clearing levels now, so prices will fall from this level and rebound. If I remember correctly this is about what the Russians are saying now.
Russia is quite fortunate because although they are heavily dependent upon energy export they have a useful budgeting strategy. The budget is set at a level significantly below state revenues. I think they only use about 50% of revenues for budget purposes the rest goes into two separate funds, split, again, between the central bank and state controlled funds.
Because of this Russia's state budget is fairly safe, as they have already made clear. The country simply reallocated incomes between budget, Central Bank and state fund.
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The Federal Reserve stopped QE, that is part of the reason for the oil price decline as well.
The Federal Reserve's cheap money policy, in combination with the bank's fraudulent lending and mortgage origination practices, were also responsible for the housing boom and subsequent bust.
Perhaps you have all seen this, but, this video shows 1 sane person being repeatedly shouted down by the supposedly rational news journalists and other commentators, some of whom even laugh openly at him:
housing bubble: "Peter Schiff was right": (sorry for the horrible quality but it was the best one I could find ; various clips from different TV dates, put together in 1 video)
Federal Reserve/ taper version:
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Ruble falls to 50.01 / 1 USD :thumbsup: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :thumbsup:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ruble-sinks-to-record-low-day-after-opec-refuses-oil-cuts/511988.html
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Ruble falls to 50.01 / 1 USD :thumbsup: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :thumbsup:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ruble-sinks-to-record-low-day-after-opec-refuses-oil-cuts/511988.html
Do you celebrate this for some reason? Please share with us how this is fortunate?
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Ruble falls to 50.01 / 1 USD :thumbsup: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :thumbsup:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ruble-sinks-to-record-low-day-after-opec-refuses-oil-cuts/511988.html
Do you celebrate this for some reason? Please share with us how this is fortunate?
The continuing slide in the value of the ruble shows that it is not just the actions of the US that are causing problems for Russia. If it was just the Americans than the Chinese and others would be buying rubles. After all the Russians and Chinese (and others) have a trade pact that allows for the purchase and sale of goods in in the national currencies so China would need rubles.
It also shows the weakness in the Russian economy. The energy sector is the biggest part of Russia's export market. So big that a significant drop in the price of oil and gas is endangering the entire Russian economy as evidenced by a serious decline in the value of the ruble.
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It also shows the weakness in the Russian economy. The energy sector is the biggest part of Russia's export market. So big that a significant drop in the price of oil and gas is endangering the entire Russian economy as evidenced by a serious decline in the value of the ruble.
This is the reality in three sentences about the Russia economy.
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Ruble falls to 50.01 / 1 USD :thumbsup: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :thumbsup:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ruble-sinks-to-record-low-day-after-opec-refuses-oil-cuts/511988.html
and Ukraine Hryvnia falls to 24Hryvnia to the pound so i dont think that economy is fairing much better, but good news for Mikey cos he will soon be on his travels buy up quick while you can mikey tiphat
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It is a mistake to connect the export of energy and the value of the ruble and then suggest that the two are a 'danger' to Russia.
Firstly the effect of the decline in value of the ruble, in dollar terms, due to the fall in price of oil, in dollar terms, tends to provide a hedge to the ruble because it means that payments to Russia for that oil is buying more rubles and thus any product or service denominated in rubles becomes cheaper. So far, from what I have read, the effect attributable to declining oil prices is balanced out by this effect.
The downside for Russia is that dollar denominated imports tend to become more expensive and it can be seen that this has had an effect upon the Russian economy. For example car imports are well down.
It should be remembered by readers that Russia has been managing a decline in the rubles value for some time with a view to going to a fully floating status. While there is now an overshoot the currency was planned to be in the region where it now is. Look at along series fx chart and see the long term trend and you will see what I mean. The ruble is now trading slightly below the level targeted for Q2 2015 which was the point at which the ruble's dirty float was planned to end.
Currency and exports are thus separate issues. An unbalanced export portfolio is not healthy, but at least the Russian economy has a very positive balance of payments as compared to, for example, the U.S; this means that Russia simply chooses how to allocate it's incomes. As I noted elsewhere, the state budget is significantly smaller than incomes. From the perspective of a Usaian the situation looks bad because the U.S could not withstand such a shock due to debt service requirements and the negative balance of payments.
For Russia the target becomes that of increasing value added outputs (manufactures) and this is already happening both in terms of import substitutions and exports. The biggest issue faced by Russia is that there are too few rubles in the system (M2), this is a central bank issue and one that is designed to be addressed by the state funds which are being used to provide additional liquidity without reference to the Russian Central Bank. This fund is the weak point for the Russian government because it allows the Kremlin to act outside the strictures of the Central Bank but is dependent upon an ongoing surplus of dollars from imports. Right now things are OK but if oil prices AND global demand remain depressed for several years this fund may not grow as needed or become depleted.
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Ruble falls to 50.01 / 1 USD :thumbsup: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :thumbsup:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/ruble-sinks-to-record-low-day-after-opec-refuses-oil-cuts/511988.html
Do you celebrate this for some reason? Please share with us how this is fortunate?
Right, even if one makes a fortune on such fluctuations (some did in my country), it's really wiser to keep low profile about it because that bitch, karma, might have missed that ... Dunno, could be just me, but i can't see myself being ecstatically happy because i was smug enough to earn money on some other (ordinary) people's misery...
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Volshe, I absolutely agree with you about the attitude of the quoted poster. He is not alone in his 'feelings' and does him and his ilk no favours.
For sure though, people are profiting from the current silliness and sensibly they do not publicise their profits. Those profits are not always in money form. Profit, in one form or another, is the reason for the current silliness.
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Right, even if one makes a fortune on such fluctuations (some did in my country), it's really wiser to keep low profile about it because that bitch, karma, might have missed that ... Dunno, could be just me, but i can't see myself being ecstatically happy because i was smug enough to earn money on some other (ordinary) people's misery...
I doubt that Akmike is playing the forex markets. He simply delights in seeing the Russian economy hurt. What he fails to trumpet is the Ukrainian Hrivna has fallen even further than the Ruble on the forex markets...
I agree with you Volshe there is nothing happy in these events. Talking to my brother in law this morning. The value of the Ukraine old age pension has now fallen to $75 per month. With food price inflation you cannot even buy a survival diet on that money - let alone pay the energy bills. Old age pensioners starving and dying of the cold. What a huge step forward for Ukraine!
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Right, even if one makes a fortune on such fluctuations (some did in my country), it's really wiser to keep low profile about it because that bitch, karma, might have missed that ... Dunno, could be just me, but i can't see myself being ecstatically happy because i was smug enough to earn money on some other (ordinary) people's misery...
I doubt that Akmike is playing the forex markets. He simply delights in seeing the Russian economy hurt. What he fails to trumpet is the Ukrainian Hrivna has fallen even further than the Ruble on the forex markets...
I agree with you Volshe there is nothing happy in these events. Talking to my brother in law this morning. The value of the Ukraine old age pension has now fallen to $75 per month. With food price inflation you cannot even buy a survival diet on that money - let alone pay the energy bills. Old age pensioners starving and dying of the cold. What a huge step forward for Ukraine!
Leslie, i am really sorry to read this. I pray for people in Ukraine ever since all of this chaos started, we've been through that... God Forbid :( Some are laughing here like children when they score something, as if they are forgetting that it's regular people like us suffering there :(
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I agree with you Volshe there is nothing happy in these events. Talking to my brother in law this morning. The value of the Ukraine old age pension has now fallen to $75 per month. With food price inflation you cannot even buy a survival diet on that money - let alone pay the energy bills. Old age pensioners starving and dying of the cold.
The subsidized gas allowance for pensioners in Ukraine has also been reduced for this winter...
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Contrary to some of the spiteful comments made by forum members about Ukrainians and their intelligence there are good things on the horizon for Ukraine. I see see a lot of talent coming out of Ukraine right now.
Could Ukraine Be The Next Silicon Valley?
Even among the sordid histories of Eastern Europe, Ukraine is particularly tragic. In just the 20th century, it was starved by Stalin, decimated by Hitler, subjected to seventy years of incompetent Soviet rule, looted by its own government and, most recently, invaded by Putin.
Ukraine’s situation today remains desperate. The country is in dire financial straits, dependent on financial assistance from the IMF, US and EU. Crimea has been annexed, the eastern provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk are caught in a frozen conflict and its chief antagonist, Russia, controls its gas supply.
Yet still, Ukraine is not without promise. While much of its Soviet era industry lies dormant within the conflict zone, its tech industry is booming. I recently talked with Yevgen Sysoyev of AVentures, a venture capital firm in Kiev, and he thinks that we may be seeing the birth of a new Ukrainian renaissance. While that may sound crazy, he might very well be right.
What Makes A Tech Mecca?
Ever since Silicon Valley emerged as the center of the technology world in the seventies and eighties, others have tried to followed its lead. Most have failed, but a few, such as New York, Tel Aviv, and Austin have succeeded brilliantly. No one has unseated the Bay Area yet, but these places have built thriving technology startup scenes.
If you examine today’s startup hubs further, it becomes clear that they all have some things in common. Each, for instance, has strong universities turning out capable technology talent. They also have what Richard Florida calls the Creative Class—a tolerant environment that promotes an active subculture of art galleries, music scenes and avant garde cafes.
Anybody familiar with the technology industry in Ukraine knows that Kiev has these things in spades. It is already a thriving outsourcing center. Elance, the leading online freelance site, ranks Ukraine as the third best place in the world to find people with advanced skills. Kiev is a fun place, with a thriving culture and, above all, is tolerant and inviting.
Yet there is a final element that Ukraine has been missing. Every great startup culture requires a catalyst, one breakout company that spawns the local financial and professional networks new firms need to thrive. Silicon Valley had Hewlett Packard, Tel-Aviv had ICQ, and New York had Doubleclick. In Ukraine, there’s no one, but that may soon change.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/11/24/could-ukraine-be-the-next-silicon-valley/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/11/24/could-ukraine-be-the-next-silicon-valley/)
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Contrary to some of the spiteful comments made by forum members about Ukrainians and their intelligence
???
The only generalization i've heard of during years spent in Russia and with Russian-speaking folks is that people in Ukraine are, like, more materialistic and business-savvy vs. Russians being more idealistic. Not sure where what you write comes from, but Ukrainian contribution to Russian culture is known and valued, think of Gogol, Makarenko (Антон Семенович Макаренко) and many others. I hate to add to the rumors, but you know to whom the folklore refers as to the not-most-intelligent-of-all (natives of Chukotka).
Anyway, fingers crossed that the economy improves in the way you quote in the article and in many others too.
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I don't believe that Kiev will be the next Silicon Valley. Such scepter will belong to Lvov. I get IT solutions from Ukraine and the best developers are found in Lvov.
Contrary to some of the spiteful comments made by forum members about Ukrainians and their intelligence there are good things on the horizon for Ukraine. I see see a lot of talent coming out of Ukraine right now.
Could Ukraine Be The Next Silicon Valley?
Even among the sordid histories of Eastern Europe, Ukraine is particularly tragic. In just the 20th century, it was starved by Stalin, decimated by Hitler, subjected to seventy years of incompetent Soviet rule, looted by its own government and, most recently, invaded by Putin.
Ukraine’s situation today remains desperate. The country is in dire financial straits, dependent on financial assistance from the IMF, US and EU. Crimea has been annexed, the eastern provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk are caught in a frozen conflict and its chief antagonist, Russia, controls its gas supply.
Yet still, Ukraine is not without promise. While much of its Soviet era industry lies dormant within the conflict zone, its tech industry is booming. I recently talked with Yevgen Sysoyev of AVentures, a venture capital firm in Kiev, and he thinks that we may be seeing the birth of a new Ukrainian renaissance. While that may sound crazy, he might very well be right.
What Makes A Tech Mecca?
Ever since Silicon Valley emerged as the center of the technology world in the seventies and eighties, others have tried to followed its lead. Most have failed, but a few, such as New York, Tel Aviv, and Austin have succeeded brilliantly. No one has unseated the Bay Area yet, but these places have built thriving technology startup scenes.
If you examine today’s startup hubs further, it becomes clear that they all have some things in common. Each, for instance, has strong universities turning out capable technology talent. They also have what Richard Florida calls the Creative Class—a tolerant environment that promotes an active subculture of art galleries, music scenes and avant garde cafes.
Anybody familiar with the technology industry in Ukraine knows that Kiev has these things in spades. It is already a thriving outsourcing center. Elance, the leading online freelance site, ranks Ukraine as the third best place in the world to find people with advanced skills. Kiev is a fun place, with a thriving culture and, above all, is tolerant and inviting.
Yet there is a final element that Ukraine has been missing. Every great startup culture requires a catalyst, one breakout company that spawns the local financial and professional networks new firms need to thrive. Silicon Valley had Hewlett Packard, Tel-Aviv had ICQ, and New York had Doubleclick. In Ukraine, there’s no one, but that may soon change.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/11/24/could-ukraine-be-the-next-silicon-valley/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/11/24/could-ukraine-be-the-next-silicon-valley/)
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This is better than driving a snowplow out in front of a jet taking off. :sick0012:
Borispil airport workers “decorate” Russian aircraft
Workers at the Boryspil Airport near Kiev decorated an Aeroflot Russian Airlines aircraft with graffiti about Putin and Pushkin, reports Espreso TV, November 30.
Using a black marker on the body and engines of the aircraft, they scrawled the famous obscene chant of soccer fans about Putin : “Putin kh**lo.” In addition, they placed the inscription “Russians read your Pushkin. Think” on the sensor of the aircraft, avianews.com reports.
The incident occurred sometime in the evening on November 28, in the parking lot near Terminal D.
As reported by LB.ua, the inscriptions were made by several airport employees. They have been detained by airport security, but it is not known if they have been released yet.
Attempts were made to remove the offensive inscriptions but the work was not completed due to insufficient time. Therefore, the plane flew to its destination bearing a portion of the chant “Putin kh**lo.”
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/12/01/borispil-airport-workers-decorate-russian-aircraft
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leslied ...I agree with you Volshe there is nothing happy in these events. Talking to my brother in law this morning. The value of the Ukraine old age pension has now fallen to $75 per month. With food price inflation you cannot even buy a survival diet on that money - let alone pay the energy bills. Old age pensioners starving and dying of the cold. What a huge step forward for Ukraine!
while i agree there is no joy in any of this
people are needlessly suffering that is true
the view of many especialy those in ukraine is that the ukraine gov would not need to be diverting money into fighting a war , if mr putin had of taken a different course of action
mr putin chose the politics of force
ukraine has no choice if it wants to protect its independence & territory
until mr putin changes , or is forced to change direction it will unfortunatly continue
SX
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Russia protects the x president that rob the country of nearly 40 billion dollars that caused the problem. Then used the excuse that he was remove from power to invade Crimea and organize the rebels and support them with weapons and troops. This shut down most of the countries industry and took away it tourist hub and harbor income. Sadly it is luck that any body getting a pension at all.
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This is link to how expresident lived in ukraine while country was broke.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vice+ukraine+87+news+dispatch&go=Submit+Query&qs=bs&form=QBVR#view=detail&mid=CD7AA9FE85D3CD95DFB8CD7AA9FE85D3CD95DFB8
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leslied ...I agree with you Volshe there is nothing happy in these events. Talking to my brother in law this morning. The value of the Ukraine old age pension has now fallen to $75 per month. With food price inflation you cannot even buy a survival diet on that money - let alone pay the energy bills. Old age pensioners starving and dying of the cold. What a huge step forward for Ukraine!
while i agree there is no joy in any of this
people are needlessly suffering that is true
the view of many especialy those in ukraine is that the ukraine gov would not need to be diverting money into fighting a war , if mr putin had of taken a different course of action
mr putin chose the politics of force
ukraine has no choice if it wants to protect its independence & territory
until mr putin changes , or is forced to change direction it will unfortunatly continue
SX
Southern, i know this rethoric. We used to blame everything on Milosevic. Then he was gone, problems remained. To think that EU is a solution for countries with weak economy and serious corruption issues is naive, check the stats of the new member-countries.
This is not to say that i don't keep my fingers crossed for Ukraine, of course i do, everyone in their right mind does, but that the solution is as easy as you suggest... Sadly, we both know that it is not, the country was ruined long before all of this started and blaming Russians, Jews and other usual scapegoats for the situation is not the way to stabilize it.
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Russia’s Weapon of Choice: Information Warfare
RT used to be named Russia Today, but the name was changed to make less evident to people living outside the Russian Federation that it is Kremlin-funded or even associated with Russia, said the authors. It’s not guided by “objective truth,” which its managers say doesn’t exist. One opinion is equal to another in their view.
RT is very popular online because of its anti-US and anti-West themes, and its abundance of conspiracy theories.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1113832-russias-weapon-of-choice-information-warfare/
I know this is nothing new but some here still refuse to see it for what it is. You can lead a horse to water.....
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Russia’s Weapon of Choice: Information Warfare
RT used to be named Russia Today, but the name was changed to make less evident to people living outside the Russian Federation that it is Kremlin-funded or even associated with Russia, said the authors. It’s not guided by “objective truth,” which its managers say doesn’t exist. One opinion is equal to another in their view.
RT is very popular online because of its anti-US and anti-West themes, and its abundance of conspiracy theories.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1113832-russias-weapon-of-choice-information-warfare/
I know this is nothing new but some here still refuse to see it for what it is. You can lead a horse to water.....
Not sure to whom you refer as being the proverbial horse, but (from the article) :
"To understand the Kremlin’s modus operandi and to counter it, the Institute of Modern Russia (IMR), a nonprofit think tank based in New York"
They are sponsored by whom, what do you think?
"Putin and his Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov can speak in diplomatic voices, while Russia is really engaged in a war with the West that is leaving it bewildered. "
What leaves West bewildered is that Putin is not the drunkard Yeltsin (or kolhoznik Gorvachev per that matter), they thought they had finished Russia, but lo and behold, to their bewilderment, they didn't.
Diplomats speak within a certain discourse, how would you expect them to speak? ???
"“Essentially, they are weaponizing information, and I recognized as a journalist"
Aha, versus the mainstream western media which is set to report on the objective reality, more so without profit or whatsoever ... don't make me laugh, please.
"Pomerantsev and Weiss say the weapon of choice is “disinformation,” which goes much further than just propaganda. For example, Russian television inside Russia and in eastern Ukraine created the reality that “‘fascists’ have taken power in Kiev, ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine are in mortal danger, and the CIA is waging a war against Moscow.”
Given that you seem to like the use of old sayings, that's calling a spade - spade. :)
ETA: Oh, and mhr7, when you provide arguments beside 'he said, she said' then we can talk, like this we can continue exchanging poslovici, pogovorki & ustoychivie slovosochetaniya.
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Contrary to some of the spiteful comments made by forum members about Ukrainians and their intelligence
Who has been saying such things?
Right now, and ongoing,there are going to be loads of stories about future good things in Ukraine, it would be surprising, in these circumstances if there were not.
But a new silicon valley?
Not a chance of it. The infrastructure no longer exists (it might in potential have been there a while back, maybe as little as a year, but right now? Nope.
Yes, Ukraine has a history of supplying some high tech electronics to Russia, that was part of the Soviet concept of dividing the various elements of industry among the members of the Soviet Union, but those elements rarely were sufficiently vertically integrated to enable survival or development.
So, the Russian military kept Ukraine's electronics industry going but where is that business now? Where are the value providers going to? Across the border. But even if they were still there, they were, on the whole, serving a one trick pony and were a shadow from the past Soviet model.
Ukraine can offer nothing that is not already available more efficiently across Europe and investment ain't going to happen during times of uncertainty.
If you find a decent coder over there, pay him well, by local standards, treat him with respect and remember that there's a reason that Google started in Silicon Valley, USA and not Russia (or Ukraine) Silicon Valley is an eco system that runs from schools, through universities to business parks, supported by a network of investors who are trained to know where to look and what to look out for. The whole lot underpinned by a confidence in respect of intellectual property and other legaö frameworks that is a generation or more away from being even remotely feasible in Ukraine.
There's going to be lots of stories about a bright future and all designed to keep people's attention away from the lack of food in their larder, the ice in their bathtubs and the candles that replace light bulbs when the anthracite runs out again.
There's only one solution on the table, only one solution that is viable and until the kleptocrats in government are replaced or start to see a future for Ukraine as a nation rather than a resource to be plundered then that solution can not be implemented and the other stakeholders can not be bought on board.
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Ukraine is well known for the cyber attacks on the US and other countries
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Ukraine supplied the technology to dock incoming spaceships to the spacestation Mir but after the fall of the USSR, Russia declined to pay for it and used an alternative method, i.e. by looking out of the window.
Result, Mir knocked out of orbit when the cosmonaft effed it up, endangering the loves of the inhabitants, one of whom was British!
Nowadays, Russia would just send in some empty wagons with a few blankets in and nick the entire factory in them.....
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More on how the Ukraine war got started by a man who was a big part of it.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/11/25/should-putin-fear-the-man-who-pulled-the-trigger-of-war-in-ukraine/
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I think Andrew is correct regarding a new Silicon Valley in Ukraine. Further I am fairly confident that all parties are to one degree fighting a so-called information war.
The one asset, beyond the people, that Ukraine has is its farmland. But the powers to be in Kiev have in the last 20 years made a pretty good mess of that. The intentions were well meaning the results are largely stagnation.
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ETA: Oh, and mhr7, when you provide arguments beside 'he said, she said' then we can talk, like this we can continue exchanging poslovici, pogovorki & ustoychivie slovosochetaniya.
Oh, until then we can't talk? What a shame. :snivel: :snivel:
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ETA: Oh, and mhr7, when you provide arguments beside 'he said, she said' then we can talk, like this we can continue exchanging poslovici, pogovorki & ustoychivie slovosochetaniya.
Oh, until then we can't talk? What a shame. :snivel: :snivel:
Прости меня, EASL :'( Of course we can болтать chit chat any time! I miss Russia, love talking to fellow expats from there (if i got that part right: native English/ Russian flag). How does it feel to live in Russia with such strong anti-Russian sentiment? :snivel:
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Maybe progress is being made on the fighting at the Dontsk airport. Note: they agree to a cease fire with Russian generals. Gee, I wander what they are doing in the Ukraine.
On the ground, Ukraine's military said its forces and Russian generals had agreed a temporary ceasefire around the airport in rebel-held Donetsk that has been the focus of fighting for months.
A pro-Russian rebel leader confirmed to AFP that top-level negotiations were ongoing but that no final agreement was expected before Tuesday.
Residents around the airport reported a lull in fighting.
At least three Ukrainian soldiers were killed in battles for control of Donetsk airport over the past 24 hours, a military spokesman said.
Any truce agreement concerning the hotly disputed airport site would mark significant progress after the two sides agreed to a Russian-brokered ceasefire three months ago that never took full force.
This is full artical where Russia complains about Nato have excersises near Russia. I wonder who start that?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/russia-lashes-out-at-nato-over-ukraine-crisis-628550
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Hey this looks like it maybe be a real cease fire in the Ukraine between LNR and Ukraine army. Hopefully we will hear an the same with the DNR soon. It does not say much about the terms.
http://www.ibtimes.com/ukraine-crisis-kiev-forces-Lugansk-militia-agree-total-ceasefire-osce-says-1731698
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Hey this looks like it maybe be a real cease fire in the Ukraine between LNR and Ukraine army. Hopefully we will hear an the same with the DNR soon. It does not say much about the terms.
http://www.ibtimes.com/ukraine-crisis-kiev-forces-Lugansk-militia-agree-total-ceasefire-osce-says-1731698
If true it suggests that the Ukraine government, or at least the military, are agreeing to fulfill their part of the Minsk Protocol. The Ukrainian authorities had recently disallowed the Minsk process and self evidently were ignoring their agreed responsibilities.
I had been reading of movement at the Donetsk airport, that the rebels were choosing to allow a stalemate rather than waste resources on the place. That said, looking at a map, it is clear that while talk is of the airport that the action had moved westward to several small settlements within the clear area on the Ukrainian side of the front line.
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I also noticed you did not comment on the tactics of the Pro-Russian "Separatists" to intentionally use innocent civilians as hostages human shields. If protecting the people from the fascist junta government was really their number one priority, why on God's green earth would they take up positions right next to children and schools? That tactic really chaps my ass and certainly tells a darker story. :GRRRR:
And please don't tell me how other governments kill civilians. Tell me why this tactic isn't worthy of flat out criticism.
I doubt very much that the separatists are taking positions in the schools where their own kids are. I wouldnt do that. Would you?
As an opposition force, would you bomb an area if you knew there was a likelihood of hitting a school with kids in? I wouldnt. Others might depending on what drives them.
Urban warfare is a highly specialised subject, and I am not a specialist in the mechanics of it. I couldn't knowledgably comment on that further.
Here you go, Manny. Thought you might find this interesting:
Ukraine Rebel: Residential Areas Used as Cover
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-rebel-residential-areas-cover-27366957 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-rebel-residential-areas-cover-27366957)
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This show rebels attacking the airport in Donetsk. They set up rocket lancher next to appartment building so any return fire would into the buildings.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/12/02/videos-show-multiple-rocket-launches-in?videoId=347699717
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Guys, with due respect, when posting links - add your own comment, what you think about it, ok? Like this, lately, it's not interesting to discuss anymore :(
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This show rebels attacking the airport in Donetsk. They set up rocket lancher next to appartment building so any return fire would into the buildings.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/12/02/videos-show-multiple-rocket-launches-in?videoId=347699717
You didn't actually trouble yourself to look at the video did you?
Judging by your spelling either somebody has access to your account or you were drunk posting though.
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Judging by your spelling either somebody has access to your account
:-X Shhh, now THAT'S a good idea!
(For the record: the following content is posted for entertainment purposes exclusively ;))
For those of us to whom English is a second/3d/4th etc. language, it would be convenient to have an alternative account, from which to post on Bed English Days... ;D ;D ;D
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The quality of the thought behind the 'bed' English would still shine through though - for good or ill.
No need for fake accounts.
I was just giving Texan a fig leaf behind which to conceal his embarrassment at posting links to stuff he had not troubled to first review. Headlines can be soooo misleading and a trap for the slothful.
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I don't think the topic is less followed or interesting.
I think most got tired of :'(
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Guys, with due respect, when posting links - add your own comment, what you think about it, ok? Like this, lately, it's not interesting to discuss anymore :(
My post was a continuation of the discussion with Manny where I asked him to denounce the separatist practice of using civilians as human shields. My opinion was already pretty clear and his response, as you can see, was I don't think they really do that.
Curious to hear his thoughts about the practice now that they have openly admitted to doing it.
I'd love to hear others opinions about this practice, especially from the pro-russian perspective.
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I don't think the topic is less followed or interesting.
I think most got tired of :'(
Could be that too...
My post was a continuation of the discussion with Manny where I asked him to denounce the separatist practice of using civilians as human shields. My opinion was already pretty clear and his response, as you can see, was I don't think they really do that.
Griff, thanks for replying. :)
I am sorry, sweet, i wasn't aware i was interrupting an tête-à-tête conversation! ;D
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You could always supply an opinion on it yourself ;)
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The quality of the thought behind the 'bed' English would still shine through though - for good or ill.
Hmm, probably, but it's like that for those of us who are used to conversing with non-natives and/or being a non-native speaker, most of the folks who aren't go, like, :eeekk: at slightest discord in grammar or wording (at least that's my experience.) :)
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You could always supply an opinion on it yourself ;)
I will, tad later, need to have my Shabbat nap right now :KISSSS:
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You could always supply an opinion on it yourself ;)
I will, tad later, need to have my Shabbat nap right now :KISSSS:
Is that like beauty sleep? :Zzzzsleep:
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Volshe, I know what you mean about Grammar Nazis, but usually they act as they do because they do not actually have anything to say.
Proper people are more interested in communication and can easily overlook errors of grammar and usage.
Have a good nap.
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Other story about Rebels using residental buildings as shiields.
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You could always supply an opinion on it yourself ;)
I will, tad later, need to have my Shabbat nap right now :KISSSS:
Is that like beauty sleep? :Zzzzsleep:
Aha, but for the soul, it's a mitzvah ;)
Volshe, I know what you mean about Grammar Nazis, but usually they act as they do because they do not actually have anything to say.
Proper people are more interested in communication and can easily overlook errors of grammar and usage.
Have a good nap.
Thanks! Yes, i agree, some obsess over form because the content is lacking, but i also saw genuinely perplexed people - simply because they aren't used speaking to foreigners.
Ok, sorry for the off top :)
Texan, you were saying?
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Perhaps we should split the grammar and beauty sleep stuff to a separate thread.
Or to amuse/annoy some; hey split grammar/sleepy stuff in new thread :whistle:
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Volshe, I know what you mean about Grammar Nazis, but usually they act as they do because they do not actually have anything to say.
Proper people are more interested in communication and can easily overlook errors of grammar and usage.
Have a good nap.
We seem to have a few here, I can attest to that :chuckle:
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Ah, now I understand the posts that some make here.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/)
"The internet troll army’s selling of the Kremlin’s parallel universe to the Russian people and to a skeptical Western audience is a matter of life and death for the Putin regime. If the Russian people do not buy their story, Putin loses the high “ratings” on which his regime rests. If he cannot convince his Western audience, Europe and the United States will take actions that spoil his Novorossiya ventures and threaten his regime. Trolling is a high stakes business that Putin takes seriously and the West must not underestimate."
If Putin has an army of internet trolls, I think we know where most of the senior ranks are posting. ;D
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Apparently, Internet trolls are easily identified because they post like a duck.
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The approval rating of the Russian leadership has dropped to 5 per cent in Eastern Ukraine. I do not know why so many Russians and pro Russian people on this site think Russia helped someone in the Ukraine but few Ukrainians see it that way.
The girl I write goes home to Lugansk she tells me people that people who used to support the LNR she knew do not any more. They feel abandon by Putin and say so in the harshest of terms. People living in these areas were told they would have wealth the never had before when voting are now experiencing poverty they have never seen before.
Putin keeps saying that he want a separate region in the Ukraine but the Ukraine has little reason to make a separate region that cost lots of money, hostile to it’s government and pays little in Taxes.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/180110/ukrainian-approval-russia-leadership-dives-almost.aspx
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The approval rating of the Russian leadership has dropped to 5 per cent in Eastern Ukraine. I do not know why so many Russians and pro Russian people on this site think Russia helped someone in the Ukraine but few Ukrainians see it that way.
The girl I write goes home to Lugansk she tells me people that people who used to support the LNR she knew do not any more. They feel abandon by Putin and say so in the harshest of terms. People living in these areas were told they would have wealth the never had before when voting are now experiencing poverty they have never seen before.
I know two people in the region under siege in Ukraine, one was neutral, the other pro Russian.
Both are now negative to the influence of Russia. They just wish the pro Russian forces would go back home and stay there.
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The eastern region is out of control, Ukraine is not there and Russia is not there in any official capacity.
The so called pro Russian rebels who are now running things are at best organized thieves.
People getting robbed in public/day light is common place. Even to the point if someone wants a car
they wait til it stops and open door point gun at driver and say get out, thats that.
Things like this are daily, everyone who can leave is. Some leaving behind homes, and most belongings
taking what they can carry. Most only want peace and to go back to normal life.
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It has been written on RUA and elsewhere that Obama will not sign the new sanctions with out European support. It seems he is poised in fact to sign a further and perhaps a rather hard spanking for Putin next week.
Merry Christmas next year in the Kremlin.
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The View from the Ukrainian Side on the Subject of Ukraine?
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Water has been cut, now electricity has been cut, now cut gas to Krym.
Next do the same to eastern UA unless they pay up like everyone else has to.
. Ukraine twice reduced the supply of electricity to Crimea
Ukraine has turned one of the two main power lines. Most of the peninsula sits second day without electricity
Vidmykan emergency mode introduced in Simferopol, Sevastopol, Yalta, Feodosia, Kerch, Yalta. Light was not there since yesterday, then it briefly vmyknuly night and morning arose again, reports Espreso.TV referring to TSN
In some areas it is not now. The roads are not working traffic lights, barely leaving drivers at intersections.
After a blackout pozachynyalysya store, pharmacy, hairdresser. In "Krymenergo" explained shortage of electricity unlocking one of the two main lines that supplied electricity to the peninsula from mainland Ukraine.
How long krymchanam have to live in darkness, in "Krymenergo" not reported. Just ask limit the use of electrical appliances.
70% of the electricity supplied to the occupied peninsula of Ukraine.
http://espreso.tv/news/2014/12...troenerhiyi_do_krymu
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Water has been cut, now electricity has been cut, now cut gas to Krym.
Next do the same to eastern UA unless they pay up like everyone else has to.
Strange second sentence there Mike, as Russia would pay for it ,in either roubles or Hryvna's.
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Water has been cut, now electricity has been cut, now cut gas to Krym.
Next do the same to eastern UA unless they pay up like everyone else has to.
Strange second sentence there Mike, as Russia would pay for it ,in either roubles or Hryvna's.
I suspect this is related to power shortages/blackouts in other areas of Ukraine over the few weeks.
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The Ukraine is just nearly out of Coal because of coal mine closures. Most of their power plants run on Coal. They are trying to buy power form out of the country but still the whole country is at risk of going dark.
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Water has been cut, now electricity has been cut, now cut gas to Krym.
Next do the same to eastern UA unless they pay up like everyone else has to.
Strange second sentence there Mike, as Russia would pay for it ,in either roubles or Hryvna's.
Strange how short peoples memory is , was it not some sort of problem with Ukraine paying their own Gas bill recently or to that point over the past years (:)
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Yea they had a pro Russian president that took most of the money and did not pay anyone. Then the country was invaded for getting rid of him.
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Yea they had a pro Russian president that took most of the money and did not pay anyone. Then the country was invaded for getting rid of him.
You keep beating that drum (:) then look back and see how many years before the last guy they had the same problem for :'( you really need to do more study on your homework :coffeeread:
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Yea they had a pro Russian president that took most of the money and did not pay anyone. Then the country was invaded for getting rid of him.
You must mean Timoshenko, the gas-princess, who was also tried & convicted for that crime and illegitimatly set free by poroshenko.
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Yea they had a pro Russian president that took most of the money and did not pay anyone. Then the country was invaded for getting rid of him.
You must mean Timoshenko, the gas-princess, who was also tried & convicted for that crime and illegitimatly set free by poroshenko.
Homework and study time was never some peoples strong point! thanks for giving some a huge clue Markje :chuckle:
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Homework and study time was never some peoples strong point! thanks for giving some a huge clue Markje :chuckle:
He's not the only one on here who needs to do homework. :-X
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The Ukrainian parliament took a historic step in hopes of joining NATO sometime in the future. Lawmakers in the government-controlled chamber overwhelmingly adopted a bill dropping Ukraine's non-aligned status -- a classification given to states such as Switzerland that refuse to join military alliances and thus play no part in wars.
President Petro Poroshenko had vowed to put Ukraine under Western military protection after winning an election called in the wake of the February ouster in Kiev of a Moscow-backed president. I'm sure this has pissed off Putin no end.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-parliament-takes-historic-step-toward-nato-102848451.html
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As long as Ukraine was pro Russian the gas bill was not a big deal. Russia was willing to take slow payments because they were using gas a political weapon. It was a hope this over hanging bill would force the Ukraine into trade pack with Russia. When the Ukraine prefers to deal with Europe then the gas bill became a huge issue.
What was illegal was Timoshenko being put in jail in the first place. This was more about her leading the orange revelation against Yanukovych than anything else. Actually Yanukovych released her from jail. Maybe you need to read your facts. Europe had long called for her release and then he finely did. The supreme court of the Ukraine ruled that Timoshenko committed no crimes. No pardon was ever issued by Poroshenko.
What is the big deal about gas as it is an old subject? Why did Russia not just turn the gas off and forget the invasion? It is simple, Russia wanted complete control of the Ukraine and if it cannot have it Russia wanted to take the best part and destroy the rest. Putin did a real good job of that.
The damage to the Ukraine over this war is more like the hundred billion than three billion. The problem is the war has shut down the coalmines and causing the country to have power problems which may force Crimea to not have lights and other services as well as the LNR. The DNR managed to capture a power plant and a mine to keep it fueled and it is running for now. They run it at a reduce capacity but it is enough to keep their shrinking city with lights.
You bring up something else. If Russia like, it is legal and if Russia does not like, it is illegal. Poroshenko is president and was voted in as president it is his legal rights to pardon whom ever he wants to. Still he did not pardon Timoshenko . So now is it legal?
Putin keeps using this term legal all the time. It is legal from him to invade the Ukraine but it is illegal have sanctions against Russia. The protests in eastern Ukraine are legal but in any protest in Crimea or anywhere in Russia are illegal. I know you do not see this lack of constancy.
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
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The Ukrainian parliament took a historic step in hopes of joining NATO sometime in the future. Lawmakers in the government-controlled chamber overwhelmingly adopted a bill dropping Ukraine's non-aligned status -- a classification given to states such as Switzerland that refuse to join military alliances and thus play no part in wars.
President Petro Poroshenko had vowed to put Ukraine under Western military protection after winning an election called in the wake of the February ouster in Kiev of a Moscow-backed president. I'm sure this has pissed off Putin no end.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-parliament-takes-historic-step-toward-nato-102848451.html
I just saw this and my first thought is Sh*t. I was hoping this could move to more of a lull in hostilities. *Sigh*
Can't blame the Ukrainian Government. Right time to make this move from a political perspective. And they certainly can't trust that Russia won't invade by proxy again. They should have applied after eliminating their nuclear arsenal (if their interest is sovereignty.)
Curious to see how this affects the peace talks scheduled for the next few days.
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
Had they ignored America, they wouldn't need 'protection' would they? It was all pretty OK since 91 wasn't it?
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
Had they ignored America, they wouldn't need 'protection' would they? It was all pretty OK since 91 wasn't it?
If you've been to Ukraine you'd have a hard time saying it's pretty ok. It's a mess. And I would be shocked if Russia hadn't been encouraging that instability for years (not that the US hasn't done the same in lots of other places...or encouraged authoritarian regimes to keep power.)
I don't have an answer here, but trusting Russia doesn't seem to be in the interest of anyone but Russia.
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
Had they ignored America, they wouldn't need 'protection' would they? It was all pretty OK since 91 wasn't it?
You think Ukraine was in good shape as a country before all of this?
Look at the countries since 91 who did not stay in Russia's sphere and where they are today.
Ukraine was exactly where Russia wanted it, until now.
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
Had they ignored America, they wouldn't need 'protection' would they? It was all pretty OK since 91 wasn't it?
You think Ukraine was in good shape as a country before all of this?
Look at the countries since 91 who did not stay in Russia's sphere and where they are today.
Ukraine was exactly where Russia wanted it, until now.
Nice point, NS1.
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
Had they ignored America, they wouldn't need 'protection' would they? It was all pretty OK since 91 wasn't it?
You think Ukraine was in good shape as a country before all of this?
Look at the countries since 91 who did not stay in Russia's sphere and where they are today.
Ukraine was exactly where Russia wanted it, until now.
Nice point, NS1.
As I've said numerous times before the only way to reduce the corruption in Ukraine and increase prosperity is to leave Russia's sphere of influence and join the EU. Joining NATO is also a necessity because it's always possible Putin or an even more crazed Russian leader/administration could decide to take Ukraine by force.
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It didn't take long for Russia to respond to Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status. Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned on Tuesday that Ukraine's decision to drop its non-aligned status amounts to an application to join NATO and therefore makes Ukraine a “potential enemy” of Russia.
Since there are already several former USSR countries on Russian's border - Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway - I guess that makes them potential enemies of Russia. It's interesting how so many of the countries in the USSR's sphere of influence after the collapse of the USSR rushed to join NATO. They obviously know something.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/russia-warns-any-move-join-nato-makes-ukraine-potential-enemy
Any country with American planes, bombs or um... defence shields is a *potential* enemy. NATO is the tool America uses to park them everywhere around Russia. So yes, on the basis of that, Ukraine is choosing to make itself a potential enemy. Again.
Better to do your best to get along with the neighbours in the first place than let the bloke from five streets down cast an opinion. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. :biggrin:
Asking Russia to be your "protector" is letting the fox into the hen house. Didn't work out so well for Ukraine last time they employed that strategy. What else would you have them do?
Had they ignored America, they wouldn't need 'protection' would they? It was all pretty OK since 91 wasn't it?
You think Ukraine was in good shape as a country before all of this?
Look at the countries since 91 who did not stay in Russia's sphere and where they are today.
Ukraine was exactly where Russia wanted it, until now.
TBF, this is very true, all the countries under Soviet/Russian that are now free of their shackles are decent places to live or visit. Before they were dumps though again for balance I was in Budapest in 1984 and it was proof to me that some form of communism could possible work even then. At that point in my life I was a disillusioned Leninist. I went to parts of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia then and they where all shitholes (sorry Volshe but didn't go to Montenegro I don't think) - possibly not Hungary tho.
Give Kaliningrad back to the Poles. Or the Germans.
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You think Ukraine was in good shape as a country before all of this?
They wasn't at war.
As I've said numerous times before the only way to reduce the corruption in Ukraine and increase prosperity is to leave Russia's sphere of influence and join the EU.
They were never invited.
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As I've said numerous times before the only way to reduce the corruption in Ukraine and increase prosperity is to leave Russia's sphere of influence and join the EU.
They were never invited.
Manny even someone who knows as little about EU politics as you, knows the Association Agreement between Ukraine and EU is one of the early steps in the process to EU membership.
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TBF, this is very true, all the countries under Soviet/Russian that are now free of their shackles are decent places to live or visit. Before they were dumps though again for balance I was in Budapest in 1984 and it was proof to me that some form of communism could possible work even then. At that point in my life I was a disillusioned Leninist. I went to parts of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia then and they where all shitholes (sorry Volshe but didn't go to Montenegro I don't think) - possibly not Hungary tho.
Give Kaliningrad back to the Poles. Or the Germans.
Heya, Ste, it's ok, depends where you've been ;) With due respect - and some exceptions, i'd use that same wording for best part of Macedonia, whole Kosovo, and northern Monte defo; actually, if you were here before the 90ies - not much to see besides seaside, where back then were all the movie stars, royals etc (still are). But Belgrade was super cool, on all the coolest lists of must-see cities, Slovenia is breath-taking and so is Croatia, always was, always will be, So, it pretty much depends where you went :)
That being said, we can't blame Russians, they weren't around.
Look at the countries since 91 who did not stay in Russia's sphere and where they are today.
Everyone is exactly where they used to be - better off countries like Czech Republic were awesome even during Soviet rule, the shi**oles remained such. Nothing changed, except that people can travel now and most still don't have the money for that :biggrin:
Just checked - I went to Lyublyana which I see is now Slovenia, which is a surprise and I know some Slovenians and said I'd never been. Onward to Zagreb (now in Croatia) and then Belgrade which was quite nice actually, I remember a big river and lots of greenery. I was also 23 and drunk most of the time hence my vagueness.
Train from there (a very small station) to Bucharest where interest in all things Communist was waning (this was my student Inter-railing tour feat. Modern Socialism, too much booze and not enough sleep curtailed....).
Got to Sofia somehow, then back into Romania (I HATED Romania - decided here I'd had enough and was on my way home) - Budapest which restored my faith in Modern Socialism, to Prague of which I remember very little apart from the Spartak Stadium (falling down) Hradcany, bridges and a cemetery that was very derelict, think it was for Jews. Very erie.
Then to Munich and the West!
Home in time to see my beloved Bolton Wanderers beat Plymouth Argyle 7-2 and experience what I then though was proper coffee but was in fact just Nescafe Instant but I missed it! And I paid 20 Austrian Shillings for one on the sleeper train which was over a Quid and was rank (I thought it was free as I was on the sleeper). Thinks like that stay in your mind and it's still bugs me!
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As I've said numerous times before the only way to reduce the corruption in Ukraine and increase prosperity is to leave Russia's sphere of influence and join the EU.
They were never invited.
Manny even someone who knows as little about EU politics as you, knows the Association Agreement between Ukraine and EU is one of the early steps in the process to EU membership.
Aye but it's a long process and the EU won't make the same mistake as they did with Bulgaria and Romania unless there is a sudden need for cheap labour.
Look at Turkey, associate members since 1963, membership talks started in 2004 and unable to get in.
So I'd say no chance in our lifetimes.
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
Yes, I have my doubts as to whether there's the political will to do all that is necessary to run through the EU hoops. Serious doubts.
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Hacking collectives on both sides of the Ukraine-Russia information war have been instrumental in revealing key facts and documents that some would prefer to remain hidden. The latest leak by Ukrainian hackers purports to reveal new evidence of Russian soldiers’ presence in Ukraine.
On Friday, Ukrainian activist Evgeniy Dokukin and Ukrainian Cyber Forces, the hacktivist group he founded earlier this year, released 1.7GB of files taken from the Russian Interior Ministry. Later, Dokukin released an additional 34GB of data from the Interior Ministry servers, most of which has not yet been fully analyzed by journalists.
As with most leaks, most notably the September hack of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR), the majority of the leaked documents are overwhelmingly useless and dull. However, as in the case of the LDPR leak, evidence of Russian involvement in eastern Ukraine can be found buried underneath heaps of bureaucratic minutiae. While most of the files are inconsequential, the fact that they originate from the Rostov branch of the Interior Ministry is intriguing, as the Rostov region in Russia shares a border that spans hundreds of miles with eastern Ukraine.
Dokukin told RuNet Echo that he and the Ukrainian Cyber Forces hacked an e-mail account of the Russian Interior Ministry and two other servers, and that they also gained access to additional information that has not yet been publically released. Dokukin says he has personally not spent much time reviewing the documents taken from the Ministry server, but instead relies on journalists to parse through the gigabytes of information.
The Ministry Files
Even a quick look through the hundreds of documents makes it immediately clear that either all or nearly all of them are the real deal. A truly massive amount of manpower would have been necessary to fabricate the level of detail in the reports and lists in this leak, including metadata that seems genuine. For example, in a randomly selected document from the archive the document’s content and metadata all check out. Take, for instance, an “Overview of the state of the rule of law and public safety during public events held in the first quarter of 2014” from the General Directorate for the Protection of Public Order (GUOOOP). According to the metadata, the document was created on April 29, 2014 by Sergei Lukin, who, according to a number of news articles, is the Deputy Head of the same department. It is possible that a Ukrainian hacker spent months forging thousands of documents that perfectly match the style and content of Russian paperwork, along with matching metadata, but common sense and Occam’s razor would lead one to believe otherwise.
The most interesting document in the cache of files so far may be a police account written on August 26 describing the circumstances of an August 25 battle between Russian soldiers and the Ukrainian National Guard “10 km northwest of the small village of Prognoi.” The reason why the Interior Ministry—and not the Foreign Affairs Ministry—wrote this account is because four of the Russian soldiers sustained injuries and were evacuated to a Rostov garrison hospital. With independent verification, this police account could serve as proof of the Russian government’s knowledge of its military units operating in, or at the border of, a foreign country and firing upon its soldiers. This verification is not terribly hard to find.
On August 26, Andriy Lysenko, the spokesperson of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council, gave a briefing detailing an attack on Ukrainian border guards in the area of Krasnaya Talovka, which lies almost exactly 10 kilometers northwest of the small village of Prognoi. The Ukrainian account of this battle matches the account given by the Russian Interior Ministry.
Ukrainian account:
25 августа на участке “Красная Таловка” Луганской области была выявлена диверсионно-разведывательная группа, которая пересекла границу с территории России. В 15:00 хорошо замаскированный пограничный наряд автоматным огнем остановил продвижение диверсантов. Для подкрепления к месту боя прибыли дополнительные оперативно-боевые группы пограничников. Ожесточенный бой с российскими наемниками длился 2,5 часа. Диверсионная группа поддерживалась огнем из Российской Федерации – из минометов, 2 БТР и 2 БМП. Кроме того, украинских пограничников обстреляли неуправляемыми реактивными снарядами 2 боевых вертолета Ми-24 Вооруженных сил РФ. Во время боя погибли 4 пограничники, 3 ранены. Благодаря действиям героев прорыв через границу не состоялся. Противник понес значительные потери. Раненых и убитых диверсантов с поля боя в России эвакуировали на БМП под прикрытием огня БТРов и вертолетов.
On August 25 in the area of “Krasnaya Talovka” of the Lugansk oblast, a sabotage and reconnaissance group which crossed the border from Russia was detected. At 3:00pm, a well-disguised border detail used automatic weapons to stop the advance of the saboteurs. Additional operational combat groups of border guards arrived at the battle as reinforcements. The fierce battle with Russian mercenaries lasted for two-and-a-half hours. The diversionary group was supported with fire from mortars, two APCs, and two IFVs from the Russian Federation. Additionally, Ukrainian border guards were fired upon by unguided rockets from two Mi-24 combat helicopters of the Russian armed forces. During the battle, four border guards died and three were wounded. Thanks to the actions of the heroes, a breakthrough across the border did not occur. The enemy suffered significant losses. The wounded and killed saboteurs were evacuated from the battlefield in Russia with an IFV under the cover of fire from APCs and helicopters.
Leaked Russian document:
25.08.2014 около 15.50 при выполнении служебных обязанностей произошел факт получения ранений в ходе боестолкновения с войсками Нацгвардии р. Украина в 10 км северо-западнее х. Прогной Тарасовского р-на рядовыми к/с в/ч №51182 Полстянкиным М. В., Волгиным О. Ю., Алексеевым Ю. А., Герасименко А. А., проходящими службу в в/ч 51182 н. п. Миллерово. В 18.52 25.08.2014 вертолетом Ми-8 ВС РФ раненые эвакуированы в Ростовский гарнизонный военный госпиталь.
On August 25, 2014 around 3:50pm, M.V. Polstyankin, O.Yu. Volgin, Yu.A. Alekseev, and A.A. Gerasimenko, serving in contracted Unit 51182 of the Millerovo locality, suffered injuries in the performance of official duties during a clash with the forces of the National Guard of Ukraine 10km north-west of the small village of Prognoi of the Tarasovsky region. At 6:52pm on August 25, 2014, the wounded were evacuated to the Rostov garrison hospital via a Mi-8 helicopter of the Russian armed forces.
There are additional details from the leaked document that can be independently verified, especially through a Gruz 200 investigation of Mikhail Polstyankin, a Russian soldier who perished during the battle near Krasnaya Talovka. Gruz (Cargo) 200, referencing the code name of the transport for Russian military casualties, is an advocacy group that has documented Russian military casualties in the Ukrainian conflict. Presenting four pieces of evidence, including a Facebook post of a family friend on August 28 reporting the death of a Mikhail Polstyakin on August 25, Gruz 200 makes a convincing case that corroborates the account found in the leaked Interior Ministry document.
This leak is almost certainly genuine and provides a rare glimpse into the inner workings of the Russian Interior Ministry, though limited to the Rostov branch. There are other interesting details in this set of documents, such as Russia’s concern about weapons being trafficked from Ukraine, but the August 26 report documenting four injuries—one of which led to a death—of Russian soldiers confirms what nearly everyone has already suspected: Russia has used its official, enlisted military personnel to engage in combat with Ukrainian soldiers.
Ukrainian Cyber Forces
Dokukin has not exactly been secretive about his part in the ongoing cyber warfare. He frequently gives interviews and boasts of his group’s successes online. Other than his hack of the Russian Interior Ministry servers, Dokukin provided RuNet Echo with a list of ongoing operations of the “Ukrainian Cyber Forces,” including the blocking of accounts belonging to pro-Russian separatists on electronic payment systems, such as Yandex Money Wallet, and performing DDoS (distributed-denial-of-service) attacks on pro-separatist websites, such as novorosnews.ru and novorossia.co.
When asked about how he and the Ukrainian Cyber Forces differ from pro-Russian hacking groups, such as CyberBerkut, Dokukin says that the Russian hackers work under the Russian FSB (Federal Security Service), while his group, he claims, acts independently and is conducting a “Cyber ATO” (anti-terrorist operation) against the “terrorist and Russian aggressors” on the Internet. Furthermore, Dokukin sees Ukrainian Cyber Forces’ work as patriotic, as he believes that what they do “protect Ukraine from their [Russia’s] invasion.”
It's cyber war. And we fight against web sites, e-mails, accounts of terrorists in social networks and their videos and channels on YouTube. But some of our operations [are] related to off-line, like those in June-August with SMS-spamming and call-spamming on terrorists’ phones, and especially blocking funding accounts of terrorists, which decrease possibilities of terrorists in real war.
Dokukin and Ukrainian Cyber Forces say that the goal of the Interior Ministry hack was to “find information about [the] Russian war against Ukraine.” Although a wealth of information is now available online for checking and verification, it is unclear how the Ukrainian law enforcement and security services might use this leaked ‘evidence.’ Russian officials, meanwhile, continue to deny the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine or their involvement in the conflict.
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
Yes, I have my doubts as to whether there's the political will to do all that is necessary to run through the EU hoops. Serious doubts.
They wont get in the EU while the UK is in. No chance at all. Our economy was diluted enough, our benefit, and healthcare systems raped, our public services stretched to breaking point and our borders made irrelevant to hordes from Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. People here noticed that.
If we leave the EU, fine, let them in, bring Turkey with them. Give them all the Euro. German taxpayers will be thrilled to pick up the tab of another lame duck or three before they paid for Greece, Spain and Portugal. It will cause the EU to implode. :chuckle:
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Which is what Putin is looking for. Russia signed a trade alliance today with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan which officially comes into existence on Jan. 1, 2015. Unfortunately the population of those 4 countries combined only equal about half the population of Ukraine. Putin was counting on Ukraine and its 45 million people to help support his trade alliance. Losing those 45 million Ukrainians is a personal insult to him.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-touts-russias-new-alliance-with-4-ex-soviet-nations/
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
You didn't post a link so any protests can't be that large. :Zzzzsleep:
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
I did say 'parts of' and I did say I didn't go to Montenegro either - I was 23 and what saw wasn't great, sorry and that.
Blimey what do people get so sensitive? I'm from Bolton, a shithole, I studied in Salford, largely also a shithole, I worked in Sheffield, a shithole. In my opinion. Opinion.
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Hacking collectives on both sides of the Ukraine-Russia information war have been instrumental in revealing key facts and documents that some would prefer to remain hidden. The latest leak by Ukrainian hackers purports to reveal new evidence of Russian soldiers’ presence in Ukraine.
On Friday, Ukrainian activist Evgeniy Dokukin and Ukrainian Cyber Forces, the hacktivist group he founded earlier this year, released 1.7GB of files taken from the Russian Interior Ministry. Later, Dokukin released an additional 34GB of data from the Interior Ministry servers, most of which has not yet been fully analyzed by journalists.
As with most leaks, most notably the September hack of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR), the majority of the leaked documents are overwhelmingly useless and dull. However, as in the case of the LDPR leak, evidence of Russian involvement in eastern Ukraine can be found buried underneath heaps of bureaucratic minutiae. While most of the files are inconsequential, the fact that they originate from the Rostov branch of the Interior Ministry is intriguing, as the Rostov region in Russia shares a border that spans hundreds of miles with eastern Ukraine.
Dokukin told RuNet Echo that he and the Ukrainian Cyber Forces hacked an e-mail account of the Russian Interior Ministry and two other servers, and that they also gained access to additional information that has not yet been publically released. Dokukin says he has personally not spent much time reviewing the documents taken from the Ministry server, but instead relies on journalists to parse through the gigabytes of information.
The Ministry Files
Even a quick look through the hundreds of documents makes it immediately clear that either all or nearly all of them are the real deal. A truly massive amount of manpower would have been necessary to fabricate the level of detail in the reports and lists in this leak, including metadata that seems genuine. For example, in a randomly selected document from the archive the document’s content and metadata all check out. Take, for instance, an “Overview of the state of the rule of law and public safety during public events held in the first quarter of 2014” from the General Directorate for the Protection of Public Order (GUOOOP). According to the metadata, the document was created on April 29, 2014 by Sergei Lukin, who, according to a number of news articles, is the Deputy Head of the same department. It is possible that a Ukrainian hacker spent months forging thousands of documents that perfectly match the style and content of Russian paperwork, along with matching metadata, but common sense and Occam’s razor would lead one to believe otherwise.
The most interesting document in the cache of files so far may be a police account written on August 26 describing the circumstances of an August 25 battle between Russian soldiers and the Ukrainian National Guard “10 km northwest of the small village of Prognoi.” The reason why the Interior Ministry—and not the Foreign Affairs Ministry—wrote this account is because four of the Russian soldiers sustained injuries and were evacuated to a Rostov garrison hospital. With independent verification, this police account could serve as proof of the Russian government’s knowledge of its military units operating in, or at the border of, a foreign country and firing upon its soldiers. This verification is not terribly hard to find.
On August 26, Andriy Lysenko, the spokesperson of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council, gave a briefing detailing an attack on Ukrainian border guards in the area of Krasnaya Talovka, which lies almost exactly 10 kilometers northwest of the small village of Prognoi. The Ukrainian account of this battle matches the account given by the Russian Interior Ministry.
Ukrainian account:
25 августа на участке “Красная Таловка” Луганской области была выявлена диверсионно-разведывательная группа, которая пересекла границу с территории России. В 15:00 хорошо замаскированный пограничный наряд автоматным огнем остановил продвижение диверсантов. Для подкрепления к месту боя прибыли дополнительные оперативно-боевые группы пограничников. Ожесточенный бой с российскими наемниками длился 2,5 часа. Диверсионная группа поддерживалась огнем из Российской Федерации – из минометов, 2 БТР и 2 БМП. Кроме того, украинских пограничников обстреляли неуправляемыми реактивными снарядами 2 боевых вертолета Ми-24 Вооруженных сил РФ. Во время боя погибли 4 пограничники, 3 ранены. Благодаря действиям героев прорыв через границу не состоялся. Противник понес значительные потери. Раненых и убитых диверсантов с поля боя в России эвакуировали на БМП под прикрытием огня БТРов и вертолетов.
On August 25 in the area of “Krasnaya Talovka” of the Lugansk oblast, a sabotage and reconnaissance group which crossed the border from Russia was detected. At 3:00pm, a well-disguised border detail used automatic weapons to stop the advance of the saboteurs. Additional operational combat groups of border guards arrived at the battle as reinforcements. The fierce battle with Russian mercenaries lasted for two-and-a-half hours. The diversionary group was supported with fire from mortars, two APCs, and two IFVs from the Russian Federation. Additionally, Ukrainian border guards were fired upon by unguided rockets from two Mi-24 combat helicopters of the Russian armed forces. During the battle, four border guards died and three were wounded. Thanks to the actions of the heroes, a breakthrough across the border did not occur. The enemy suffered significant losses. The wounded and killed saboteurs were evacuated from the battlefield in Russia with an IFV under the cover of fire from APCs and helicopters.
Leaked Russian document:
25.08.2014 около 15.50 при выполнении служебных обязанностей произошел факт получения ранений в ходе боестолкновения с войсками Нацгвардии р. Украина в 10 км северо-западнее х. Прогной Тарасовского р-на рядовыми к/с в/ч №51182 Полстянкиным М. В., Волгиным О. Ю., Алексеевым Ю. А., Герасименко А. А., проходящими службу в в/ч 51182 н. п. Миллерово. В 18.52 25.08.2014 вертолетом Ми-8 ВС РФ раненые эвакуированы в Ростовский гарнизонный военный госпиталь.
On August 25, 2014 around 3:50pm, M.V. Polstyankin, O.Yu. Volgin, Yu.A. Alekseev, and A.A. Gerasimenko, serving in contracted Unit 51182 of the Millerovo locality, suffered injuries in the performance of official duties during a clash with the forces of the National Guard of Ukraine 10km north-west of the small village of Prognoi of the Tarasovsky region. At 6:52pm on August 25, 2014, the wounded were evacuated to the Rostov garrison hospital via a Mi-8 helicopter of the Russian armed forces.
There are additional details from the leaked document that can be independently verified, especially through a Gruz 200 investigation of Mikhail Polstyankin, a Russian soldier who perished during the battle near Krasnaya Talovka. Gruz (Cargo) 200, referencing the code name of the transport for Russian military casualties, is an advocacy group that has documented Russian military casualties in the Ukrainian conflict. Presenting four pieces of evidence, including a Facebook post of a family friend on August 28 reporting the death of a Mikhail Polstyakin on August 25, Gruz 200 makes a convincing case that corroborates the account found in the leaked Interior Ministry document.
This leak is almost certainly genuine and provides a rare glimpse into the inner workings of the Russian Interior Ministry, though limited to the Rostov branch. There are other interesting details in this set of documents, such as Russia’s concern about weapons being trafficked from Ukraine, but the August 26 report documenting four injuries—one of which led to a death—of Russian soldiers confirms what nearly everyone has already suspected: Russia has used its official, enlisted military personnel to engage in combat with Ukrainian soldiers.
Ukrainian Cyber Forces
Dokukin has not exactly been secretive about his part in the ongoing cyber warfare. He frequently gives interviews and boasts of his group’s successes online. Other than his hack of the Russian Interior Ministry servers, Dokukin provided RuNet Echo with a list of ongoing operations of the “Ukrainian Cyber Forces,” including the blocking of accounts belonging to pro-Russian separatists on electronic payment systems, such as Yandex Money Wallet, and performing DDoS (distributed-denial-of-service) attacks on pro-separatist websites, such as novorosnews.ru and novorossia.co.
When asked about how he and the Ukrainian Cyber Forces differ from pro-Russian hacking groups, such as CyberBerkut, Dokukin says that the Russian hackers work under the Russian FSB (Federal Security Service), while his group, he claims, acts independently and is conducting a “Cyber ATO” (anti-terrorist operation) against the “terrorist and Russian aggressors” on the Internet. Furthermore, Dokukin sees Ukrainian Cyber Forces’ work as patriotic, as he believes that what they do “protect Ukraine from their [Russia’s] invasion.”
It's cyber war. And we fight against web sites, e-mails, accounts of terrorists in social networks and their videos and channels on YouTube. But some of our operations [are] related to off-line, like those in June-August with SMS-spamming and call-spamming on terrorists’ phones, and especially blocking funding accounts of terrorists, which decrease possibilities of terrorists in real war.
Dokukin and Ukrainian Cyber Forces say that the goal of the Interior Ministry hack was to “find information about [the] Russian war against Ukraine.” Although a wealth of information is now available online for checking and verification, it is unclear how the Ukrainian law enforcement and security services might use this leaked ‘evidence.’ Russian officials, meanwhile, continue to deny the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine or their involvement in the conflict.
Eric you should know by now this is all lies by the CIA (remember it's always the CIA) to destroy Putin's good name and the good deeds of the Kremlin and the Russian people. Putin and the good people of Russia are only trying to aid their brothers and sisters in Ukraine who have been victimized and brutalized by the government and people of Ukraine. :ROFL:
Sarcasm off. Ukraine is rumoured to have some very good hackers so it's possible a patriotic group of hackers could do such a cyber attack.
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Which is what Putin is looking for. Russia signed a trade alliance today with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan which officially comes into existence on Jan. 1, 2015. Unfortunately the population of those 4 countries combined only equal about half the population of Ukraine. Putin was counting on Ukraine and its 45 million people to help support his trade alliance. Losing those 45 million Ukrainians is a personal insult to him.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-touts-russias-new-alliance-with-4-ex-soviet-nations/
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
You didn't post a link so any protests can't be that large. :Zzzzsleep:
Well seeing that your the king of Google i thought you would find it :chuckle: but seeing that i was watching on the TV its hard to give you a link matey :coffeeread:
but seeing that you need more than a little help here you go ;D http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/23/391543/ukrainians-protest-austerity-measures/
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Which is what Putin is looking for. Russia signed a trade alliance today with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan which officially comes into existence on Jan. 1, 2015. Unfortunately the population of those 4 countries combined only equal about half the population of Ukraine. Putin was counting on Ukraine and its 45 million people to help support his trade alliance. Losing those 45 million Ukrainians is a personal insult to him.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-touts-russias-new-alliance-with-4-ex-soviet-nations/
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
You didn't post a link so any protests can't be that large. :Zzzzsleep:
Well seeing that your the king of Google i thought you would find it :chuckle: but seeing that i was watching on the TV its hard to give you a link matey :coffeeread:
but seeing that you need more than a little help here you go ;D http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/23/391543/ukrainians-protest-austerity-measures/
He will now rubbish your source and tell you that it is a Russian funded propaganda channel and its all lies, lies dya hear? :chuckle:
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Which is what Putin is looking for. Russia signed a trade alliance today with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan which officially comes into existence on Jan. 1, 2015. Unfortunately the population of those 4 countries combined only equal about half the population of Ukraine. Putin was counting on Ukraine and its 45 million people to help support his trade alliance. Losing those 45 million Ukrainians is a personal insult to him.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-touts-russias-new-alliance-with-4-ex-soviet-nations/
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
You didn't post a link so any protests can't be that large. :Zzzzsleep:
Well seeing that your the king of Google i thought you would find it :chuckle: but seeing that i was watching on the TV its hard to give you a link matey :coffeeread:
but seeing that you need more than a little help here you go ;D http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/23/391543/ukrainians-protest-austerity-measures/
Notice that the article said they were protesting austerity measures not any legislation concerning dropping Ukraine's non-aligned status or joining NATO. Most citizens in most countries protest austerity measures when introduced by their respective governments, that's not news.
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Just checked - I went to Lyublyana which I see is now Slovenia, which is a surprise and I know some Slovenians and said I'd never been. Onward to Zagreb (now in Croatia) and then Belgrade which was quite nice actually, I remember a big river and lots of greenery. I was also 23 and drunk most of the time hence my vagueness.
Ljubljana has always been the capital of Slovenia as Zagreb has been the capital of Croatia. These countries were part of greater Serbia. If I am not mistaken Slovenia was the first country to declare independence from Serbia. There was virtually no fighting as Serbia does not share a border with Slovenia.
The big river is called the Danube, and Beograd or Belgrade is on its banks, as is Budapest, Vienna and Bratislava, making the Danube an unique river with 4 capitals on its banks and I think another two capitals on tributaries.
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
I did say 'parts of' and I did say I didn't go to Montenegro either - I was 23 and what saw wasn't great, sorry and that.
Blimey what do people get so sensitive? I'm from Bolton, a shithole, I studied in Salford, largely also a shithole, I worked in Sheffield, a shithole. In my opinion. Opinion.
That's just the way it is: people just don't like criticism of where they're from etc; it's atouchy subject. I think northern self-depreciation is lost there. It is what is, don't stress about it!
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He will now rubbish your source and tell you that it is a Russian funded propaganda channel and its all lies, lies dya hear? :chuckle:
A bit like you rubbish sources and say they're Western propaganda!
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He will now rubbish your source and tell you that it is a Russian funded propaganda channel and its all lies, lies dya hear? :chuckle:
A bit like you rubbish sources and say they're Western propaganda!
yes exactly krassavchick & he isnt going to change no matter what :)
SX
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
I did say 'parts of' and I did say I didn't go to Montenegro either - I was 23 and what saw wasn't great, sorry and that.
Blimey what do people get so sensitive? I'm from Bolton, a shithole, I studied in Salford, largely also a shithole, I worked in Sheffield, a shithole. In my opinion. Opinion.
That's just the way it is: people just don't like criticism of where they're from etc; it's atouchy subject. I think northern self-depreciation is lost there. It is what is, don't stress about it!
Look, krassavchik, you call where you are from - whatever you want to, and you are free to consider your ancestors - a byproduct of such a location, but keep the belittling to yourself. If my family thought this country to be what it got called here, we wouldn't be dying in battles for centuries to defend it. To us it's our land and for generations our people have been dying to keep it free, to us it is holy.
Self-depreciation would be undervaluing yourself, which if you have issues with your identity - you are free to do, but disparaging another is called differently.
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Well with a bit of Luck it will all be broken up and sold off to to the highest bidder ;D
Which is what Putin is looking for. Russia signed a trade alliance today with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan which officially comes into existence on Jan. 1, 2015. Unfortunately the population of those 4 countries combined only equal about half the population of Ukraine. Putin was counting on Ukraine and its 45 million people to help support his trade alliance. Losing those 45 million Ukrainians is a personal insult to him.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-touts-russias-new-alliance-with-4-ex-soviet-nations/
Have you Seen today the protests in the west of the country against the legislation ( the new budget and the reduction of the social sphere)laid down by the new bunch of monkeys in Kiev :chuckle: well when anarchy rules everyone thinks that they can protest at any time :coffeeread:
Yep i thought not (:) you only get to see that if your eyes are open :coffeeread:
You didn't post a link so any protests can't be that large. :Zzzzsleep:
Well seeing that your the king of Google i thought you would find it :chuckle: but seeing that i was watching on the TV its hard to give you a link matey :coffeeread:
but seeing that you need more than a little help here you go ;D http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/23/391543/ukrainians-protest-austerity-measures/
He will now rubbish your source and tell you that it is a Russian funded propaganda channel and its all lies, lies dya hear? :chuckle:
:chuckle: Ohh look your prediction came true ;D can you do New Year predictions for us too :chuckle:
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can you do New Year predictions for us too :chuckle:
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii618/Ruth_Stefanowitz/obama_yes_we_can_zpsf59a40d3.jpg)
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Ooops! :(
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii618/Ruth_Stefanowitz/Putin5_zpsda53a5a0.jpg)
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:chuckle:
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:chuckle:
:KISSSS:
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
I did say 'parts of' and I did say I didn't go to Montenegro either - I was 23 and what saw wasn't great, sorry and that.
Blimey what do people get so sensitive? I'm from Bolton, a shithole, I studied in Salford, largely also a shithole, I worked in Sheffield, a shithole. In my opinion. Opinion.
That's just the way it is: people just don't like criticism of where they're from etc; it's atouchy subject. I think northern self-depreciation is lost there. It is what is, don't stress about it!
Look, krassavchik, you call where you are from - whatever you want to, and you are free to consider your ancestors - a byproduct of such a location, but keep the belittling to yourself. If my family thought this country to be what it got called here, we wouldn't be dying in battles for centuries to defend it. To us it's our land and for generations our people have been dying to keep it free, to us it is holy.
Self-depreciation would be undervaluing yourself, which if you have issues with your identity - you are free to do, but disparaging another is called differently.
I didn't read Ste's post as belittling, or with any nasty intentions anyway, and I think he's already answered that above. He also said he hadn't been to your country. The fact is, almost every country, town and city has its sh**holes; if yours doesn't, then you are very lucky.
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Aha yet again we see that it is Russia that provides the electricity to Crimea. through a transit policy (:)
http://news.rin.ru/eng/news///79850/1//
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The fact is, almost every country, town and city has its sh**holes
It's a personal choice whether to use such wording - and whether to make judgement from such a depressing mindset, it's your worldview, and your take, not mine.
The part of the planet i've seen - including Asia and Africa, wherever i went, for myself i found beauty and magic. It's within you, all of it :)
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The fact is, almost every country, town and city has its sh**holes
It's a personal choice whether to use such wording - and whether to make judgement from such a depressing mindset, it's your worldview, and your take, not mine.
The part of the planet i've seen - including Asia and Africa, wherever i went, for myself i found beauty and magic. It's within you, all of it :)
No depressing mindset on my part, it's Christmas. :)
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As I've said numerous times before the only way to reduce the corruption in Ukraine and increase prosperity is to leave Russia's sphere of influence and join the EU.
They were never invited.
Manny even someone who knows as little about EU politics as you, knows the Association Agreement between Ukraine and EU is one of the early steps in the process to EU membership.
Manny, I would suggest you look at Serbia where it was 20 years ago and where it is today.
Please let us know your findings.
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No depressing mindset on my part, it's Christmas. :)
I know, sweet, you are merely trying to making peace here :) Merry Christmas!
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
I did say 'parts of' and I did say I didn't go to Montenegro either - I was 23 and what saw wasn't great, sorry and that.
Blimey what do people get so sensitive? I'm from Bolton, a shithole, I studied in Salford, largely also a shithole, I worked in Sheffield, a shithole. In my opinion. Opinion.
That's just the way it is: people just don't like criticism of where they're from etc; it's atouchy subject. I think northern self-depreciation is lost there. It is what is, don't stress about it!
Look, krassavchik, you call where you are from - whatever you want to, and you are free to consider your ancestors - a byproduct of such a location, but keep the belittling to yourself. If my family thought this country to be what it got called here, we wouldn't be dying in battles for centuries to defend it. To us it's our land and for generations our people have been dying to keep it free, to us it is holy.
Self-depreciation would be undervaluing yourself, which if you have issues with your identity - you are free to do, but disparaging another is called differently.
I didn't read Ste's post as belittling, or with any nasty intentions anyway, and I think he's already answered that above. He also said he hadn't been to your country. The fact is, almost every country, town and city has its sh**holes; if yours doesn't, then you are very lucky.
Thank you
And let's not forget that 'shithole' 'dumpsville' even 'scamograd' have been used on here. It's just generic for 'not what I expected' but that's by the by.
I apologise to anyone I offended and especially Volshe as I seem to have upset her so, it was not meant in that way I could go on and explain what I thought I was trying to say but it would just sound like backtracking. Better stick with just the apology for any offence, and just keep quiet for a bit....
Hope this helps...
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Ste, with due respect, i shall ignore your posts from now on. tiphat
I did say 'parts of' and I did say I didn't go to Montenegro either - I was 23 and what saw wasn't great, sorry and that.
Blimey what do people get so sensitive? I'm from Bolton, a shithole, I studied in Salford, largely also a shithole, I worked in Sheffield, a shithole. In my opinion. Opinion.
That's just the way it is: people just don't like criticism of where they're from etc; it's atouchy subject. I think northern self-depreciation is lost there. It is what is, don't stress about it!
Look, krassavchik, you call where you are from - whatever you want to, and you are free to consider your ancestors - a byproduct of such a location, but keep the belittling to yourself. If my family thought this country to be what it got called here, we wouldn't be dying in battles for centuries to defend it. To us it's our land and for generations our people have been dying to keep it free, to us it is holy.
Self-depreciation would be undervaluing yourself, which if you have issues with your identity - you are free to do, but disparaging another is called differently.
I didn't read Ste's post as belittling, or with any nasty intentions anyway, and I think he's already answered that above. He also said he hadn't been to your country. The fact is, almost every country, town and city has its sh**holes; if yours doesn't, then you are very lucky.
Thank you
And let's not forget that 'shithole' 'dumpsville' even 'scamograd' have been used on here. It's just generic for 'not what I expected' but that's by the by.
I apologise to anyone I offended and especially Volshe as I seem to have upset her so, it was not meant in that way I could go on and explain what I thought I was trying to say but it would just sound like backtracking. Better stick with just the apology for any offence, and just keep quiet for a bit....
Hope this helps...
Oh no, not that dick. Now you have offended. :sick0012:
:chuckle: it was quite funny.
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I apologise to anyone I offended and especially Volshe as I seem to have upset her so, it was not meant in that way I could go on and explain what I thought I was trying to say but it would just sound like backtracking. Better stick with just the apology for any offence, and just keep quiet for a bit....
I apologize as well for the ... well, outburst ;D If i didn't respect you, i wouldn't have paid attention at what you've said, as it is, it hurt. Anyway, it passed :) Merry Christmas to you and Nadia, Ste.
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I know, sweet, you are merely trying to making peace here :) Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to you too Volshe, and many of them. :)
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NATO begins to train Ukrainian NCO corps
By Alex Statko for Southeast European Times in Kiev | 2014-12-19
A co-operative training programme will boost the number of highly qualified sergeants in the Ukrainian Army.
Ukraine's military is taking advantage of a unique opportunity to raise professionalism by seeking NATO's assistance to improve its military education programmes.
Military commanders and analysts said enrolling Ukrainian soldiers in courses where they will learn to become sergeants according to NATO standards will bring "great results" for the further success of Ukrainian Army.
"Sergeant is the basis of any army in the world, because he commands the soldiers directly," Valeriy Ryabykh of Defence Express Media and Consulting, told to SETimes. "Today, character of the war has changed very much. If earlier military commanders prepared extensive frontline operations, very large-scale, in the modern conditions we are talking about manoeuvrable-type operations, both in defence and in attack. The role of tactical link increases and who is to supervise the tactical level? Yes, these people are sergeants. Therefore, they play a key role in the army now."
A Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) training programme that complies with NATO standards will begin in the army academy named after Hetman Petro Sahaydachnyi, located in Lvov. Later, the programme will be implemented in other Ukrainian cities.
A NATO military delegation visited the Sahaydachnyi Academy on December 17th. Alliance experts and experienced trainers attended the training process of Ukrainian sergeants to check their preparedness and learn about current education methods.
"We are ready for constructive dialogue and the full support of the Ukrainian Armed Forces," Boguslaw Pacek, a retired Polish major general who is NATO's adviser for military education reform in Ukraine, told reporters during the visit to the academy. "I would like to say that the whole world supports progressive desire of the Ukrainian people for freedom and democracy."
Along with professional military education experts, representatives of the NCO corps from Canada, US, Lithuania and the Czech Republic visited the academy to analyse the Ukrainian training programme and provide suggestions on how to improve the educational process and bring it closer to Alliance standards.
"It is very positive that experts from the West will be involved in the preparation of our sergeants, because it is a completely different approach to the educational process and completely different experience," Ryabykh said. "This is something like vaccination to our armed forces. We need this help, but it will be useful if we don't just copy foreign experience on our ground, but if it will be comprehended and transformed into our reality."
The Chief of the Army Academy Lieutenant General Pavlo Tkachuk said learning from the experience of the world's leading armies, especially NATO members, is crucial in the context of NCO corps training.
"During the last months the Ukrainian Armed Forces have turned into the one of the most combat capable and experienced armies in the world," Tkachuk told reporters at the academy. "But there is still a lot of work on formation of the national army, because before our military get invaluable experience on the battlefield, in particular during anti-terrorist operations in the east, they must acquire fundamental knowledge during the grounding and get appropriate military education."
Military experts said the Ukrainian Army is in need of professional sergeants.
"We were negligent in this issue," Ihor Koziy, a military expert at the Institute of Euro-Atlantic Co-operation, told SETimes. "NCO corps will give clearly positive result, only if the army leadership will take care of it, if sergeants will have a good salary and the opportunity for professional growth."
Pacek said it could take three to five years to completely change the sergeants' education system so that it complies with NATO standards.
"After some time you will meet with the military, which passed this training and they will tell you, what they got from it, what they learned," Pacek said. "The main thing is your desire and concrete goals, and we certainly love Ukraine with all [of our] heart. We are ready to help this beautiful country."
On average, the sergeant training takes three to six months. The faster the NATO recommendations work, the faster the Ukrainian Army will benefit from a new generation of sergeants, military experts said.
In addition, Ukraine has a unique opportunity to recruit the best staff for the training programme by including young soldiers who fought in the east. Military commanders can choose the best among those soldiers, assembling a group of future sergeants who already have significant military skills and combat experience, experts said.
"Powerful NCO corps will influence automatically to army's combat capability," Koziy said. "In fact, for us it is not a new system. By the end of the World War II, we had a lot of sergeants. These were the people who passed the war, and they were appointed to the most important positions. It was believed that these were very experienced people. But later everything has changed."
But now, thanks to NATO, Ukraine has a chance to rebuild the effectiveness of NCO corps, he said.
"This training programme is a good trend," Ryabykh said. "It has a psychological aspect as well: We are not alone. This is a signal that Europe is aware that threat of war is real, not only for us but for the whole region."
http://ukraine.setimes.com/en_GB/articles/uwi/features/2014/12/19/feature-02
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NATO begins to train Ukrainian NCO corps
By Alex Statko for Southeast European Times in Kiev | 2014-12-19
A co-operative training programme will boost the number of highly qualified sergeants in the Ukrainian Army.
Ukraine's military is taking advantage of a unique opportunity to raise professionalism by seeking NATO's assistance to improve its military education programmes.
Military commanders and analysts said enrolling Ukrainian soldiers in courses where they will learn to become sergeants according to NATO standards will bring "great results" for the further success of Ukrainian Army.
"Sergeant is the basis of any army in the world, because he commands the soldiers directly," Valeriy Ryabykh of Defence Express Media and Consulting, told to SETimes. "Today, character of the war has changed very much. If earlier military commanders prepared extensive frontline operations, very large-scale, in the modern conditions we are talking about manoeuvrable-type operations, both in defence and in attack. The role of tactical link increases and who is to supervise the tactical level? Yes, these people are sergeants. Therefore, they play a key role in the army now."
A Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) training programme that complies with NATO standards will begin in the army academy named after Hetman Petro Sahaydachnyi, located in Lvov. Later, the programme will be implemented in other Ukrainian cities.
A NATO military delegation visited the Sahaydachnyi Academy on December 17th. Alliance experts and experienced trainers attended the training process of Ukrainian sergeants to check their preparedness and learn about current education methods.
"We are ready for constructive dialogue and the full support of the Ukrainian Armed Forces," Boguslaw Pacek, a retired Polish major general who is NATO's adviser for military education reform in Ukraine, told reporters during the visit to the academy. "I would like to say that the whole world supports progressive desire of the Ukrainian people for freedom and democracy."
Along with professional military education experts, representatives of the NCO corps from Canada, US, Lithuania and the Czech Republic visited the academy to analyse the Ukrainian training programme and provide suggestions on how to improve the educational process and bring it closer to Alliance standards.
"It is very positive that experts from the West will be involved in the preparation of our sergeants, because it is a completely different approach to the educational process and completely different experience," Ryabykh said. "This is something like vaccination to our armed forces. We need this help, but it will be useful if we don't just copy foreign experience on our ground, but if it will be comprehended and transformed into our reality."
The Chief of the Army Academy Lieutenant General Pavlo Tkachuk said learning from the experience of the world's leading armies, especially NATO members, is crucial in the context of NCO corps training.
"During the last months the Ukrainian Armed Forces have turned into the one of the most combat capable and experienced armies in the world," Tkachuk told reporters at the academy. "But there is still a lot of work on formation of the national army, because before our military get invaluable experience on the battlefield, in particular during anti-terrorist operations in the east, they must acquire fundamental knowledge during the grounding and get appropriate military education."
Military experts said the Ukrainian Army is in need of professional sergeants.
"We were negligent in this issue," Ihor Koziy, a military expert at the Institute of Euro-Atlantic Co-operation, told SETimes. "NCO corps will give clearly positive result, only if the army leadership will take care of it, if sergeants will have a good salary and the opportunity for professional growth."
Pacek said it could take three to five years to completely change the sergeants' education system so that it complies with NATO standards.
"After some time you will meet with the military, which passed this training and they will tell you, what they got from it, what they learned," Pacek said. "The main thing is your desire and concrete goals, and we certainly love Ukraine with all [of our] heart. We are ready to help this beautiful country."
On average, the sergeant training takes three to six months. The faster the NATO recommendations work, the faster the Ukrainian Army will benefit from a new generation of sergeants, military experts said.
In addition, Ukraine has a unique opportunity to recruit the best staff for the training programme by including young soldiers who fought in the east. Military commanders can choose the best among those soldiers, assembling a group of future sergeants who already have significant military skills and combat experience, experts said.
"Powerful NCO corps will influence automatically to army's combat capability," Koziy said. "In fact, for us it is not a new system. By the end of the World War II, we had a lot of sergeants. These were the people who passed the war, and they were appointed to the most important positions. It was believed that these were very experienced people. But later everything has changed."
But now, thanks to NATO, Ukraine has a chance to rebuild the effectiveness of NCO corps, he said.
"This training programme is a good trend," Ryabykh said. "It has a psychological aspect as well: We are not alone. This is a signal that Europe is aware that threat of war is real, not only for us but for the whole region."
http://ukraine.setimes.com/en_GB/articles/uwi/features/2014/12/19/feature-02
Sounds like NATO is setting Ukraine up for membership at some time in the future.
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Sounds like NATO is setting Ukraine up for membership at some time in the future.
Ukraine will never be a NATO member, as long as they are divided. Considering that you are our expert about what Putin wants, I'm surprised that you don't have a better grasp of the situation.
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Wouldn't that frost Putin's patootie! :ROFL:
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Sounds like NATO is setting Ukraine up for membership at some time in the future.
Ukraine will never be a NATO member, as long as they are divided. Considering that you are our expert about what Putin wants, I'm surprised that you don't have a better grasp of the situation.
Never say never.. The Ukies did, and big brother attacked them anyway.
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Never say never.. The Ukies did, and big brother attacked them anyway.
If two separatist oblasts are not sufficient to keep Ukraine out of NATO, it will become four, six or eight. Eventually, there will nothing left to join NATO. Of course, it will be very costly for Russia, but it will be much more costly for Ukraine.
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Or since the terrorists appear to be leaving due to lack of pay :ROFL: :ROFL:
Ukraine may be reunited..
Time will tell.
Either way it'll take many, many years for this to be forgotten by Ukraine IF ever.
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There appear to be multiple games being played by all concerned and time is a constant in all of them. There are many scenarios as to how all points can be played out and there is no absolute ending short or long term for anyone. All could change in a week or years down the road.
Nato is nothing to be worried about at this time. This is a distraction and may or may not occur years down the road. The reforms and direction away from Russia is all that matters. In that subject it can only be better for Ukraine if they actually go through with reform. That is still up in the air and they have a bad track record but looks promising at the moment. Some things are moving ahead while others are lagging.
Ukraine needs to get Russia out of the east and maybe (or not) that will happen over time. Russia's deteriorating economy can help in that area. Then it needs to convince the east it will find peace in the west, not with Russia. Again it is a matter of time and circumstance. Reform and a drawn out war can help in that area. Most people want peace and what was the status quo. More games will be played. Time and circumstance will tell.
My own opinion is that there will be no separation with the east if it can be avoided in any way regardless of what is said in the media or in talks. They look for time. Smoke and mirrors.
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There appear to be multiple games being played by all concerned...
Indeed! The sooner that Ukraine realizes that they are considered to be a worthless pawn in a proxy war, the better. The same scenario has played out in South Korea, South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, Taiwan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and countless others but the dumb *snip*s always think that the outcome will be different for them.
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There appear to be multiple games being played by all concerned...
Indeed! The sooner that Ukraine realizes that they are considered to be a worthless pawn in a proxy war, the better. The same scenario has played out in South Korea, South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, Taiwan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and countless others but the dumb *snip*s always think that the outcome will be different for them.
The sooner you realize your house is a worthless pawn in the real estate wars the better. You should just let other people do what they want to it... And be done with it.
How does that make you feel?
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There appear to be multiple games being played by all concerned...
Indeed! The sooner that Ukraine realizes that they are considered to be a worthless pawn in a proxy war, the better. The same scenario has played out in South Korea, South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, Taiwan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and countless others but the dumb *snip*s always think that the outcome will be different for them.
I think you refer to the rumor that the US was responsible for Maidan. Knowing some about what our country has been capable of in the past I would not bet against it but so far I have not seen any convincing evidence in that area. Just the phone call and our wish list which is probably normal for all countries involved. Did we pay thousands of people to protest? I think not.
More convincing to me is the last ten years of Ukrainians pushing hard for reforms and getting stiffed with the usual corruption. It had been building to a boiling point and this last little revolution seemed inevitable to me. One cannot say that there wasn't a strong movement. Anyone I ever knew was pretty strong about this. The wish for freedom from tyranny/corruption can do that.
Regardless of what some think about how they got where they are now, they are now legitimate and taking huge steps to be a better country. The alternative would be more gas deals lining somebodies pockets and staying under Russia's thumb which only reinforces the corruption/stagnation. Perhaps being under the EU thumb would lesson corruption albeit at a price. Everything in life comes with a price. This will be a stiff one but they do seem united in their path.
In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
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In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The Baltics are very closely allied with Russia. They are neighbours. Yes they make some anti-Russian noise now and again to appease the US, but are mostly quiet.
Many people there are ethnic Russians, and/or speak Russian and/or identify themselves as Russian. Yet despite American warmongering, there is no tension. All this "NATO protection" stuff is crap. NATO planes are there for NATO warmongering, not the Baltic states security. They have no concern about Russia in reality. None at all. People in the Baltics are not concerned about Russia as there is nothing to worry about - as Putin has underlined several times.
If anyone doubts that, ask and I will show you a tweet from the Estonian president.
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In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The Baltics are very closely allied with Russia. They are neighbours. Yes they make some anti-Russian noise now and again to appease the US, but are mostly quiet.
Many people there are ethnic Russians, and/or speak Russian and/or identify themselves as Russian. Yet despite American warmongering, there is no tension. All this "NATO protection" stuff is crap. NATO planes are there for NATO warmongering, not the Baltic states security. They have no concern about Russia in reality. None at all. People in the Baltics are not concerned about Russia as there is nothing to worry about - as Putin has underlined several times.
If anyone doubts that, ask and I will show you a tweet from the Estonian president.
I don't doubt it, more so, i know it myself from very credible Estonian sources (not exactly the 1st guy, but ...
close :-X )
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In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The Baltics are very closely allied with Russia. They are neighbours. Yes they make some anti-Russian noise now and again to appease the US, but are mostly quiet.
Many people there are ethnic Russians, and/or speak Russian and/or identify themselves as Russian. Yet despite American warmongering, there is no tension. All this "NATO protection" stuff is crap. NATO planes are there for NATO warmongering, not the Baltic states security. They have no concern about Russia in reality. None at all. People in the Baltics are not concerned about Russia as there is nothing to worry about - as Putin has underlined several times.
If anyone doubts that, ask and I will show you a tweet from the Estonian president.
I would pretty much agree also though there is still hatred for all things Russian there.
While in Estonia with the wife it was interesting the amount of people who liked her immediately upon knowing she was Ukrainian and remarked on how terrible Russia was towards it (this was before the current non war).
In the market an old lady spit on the ground in front of me when I tried speaking to her in Russian. She said something about Russians and refused to speak more with me in any language I tried.
At the city tourist office they told me that a certain percentage of the population still has strong feelings.
On the other hand I spoke to a few Russians who said that life there was quite normal with no problems at all.
Of course Russia is allied with the Baltics. They are neighbors and there is no reason not to trade with them if you are "a free and independent state".
My statement only refers to how a state can move from corruption and stagnation to something much better by moving out from under Russia's thumb. Take Estonia at the time of the revolution and Estonia now. Subjugated and poor - Free and prosperous.
And I agree that the Baltics do not fear Russia so much. They have Nato after all. I think they do fear what Russia can do to those countries who do not have it.
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How does that make you feel?
It makes me feel that flag-wavers have a very short memory when it comes to countries that we courted, then screwed over when we had no more use for them.
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I think you refer to the rumor that the US was responsible for Maidan. Knowing some about what our country has been capable of in the past I would not bet against it but so far I have not seen any convincing evidence in that area.
Regardless of what some think about how they got where they are now, they are now legitimate and taking huge steps to be a better country. The alternative would be more gas deals lining somebodies pockets and staying under Russia's thumb which only reinforces the corruption/stagnation. Perhaps being under the EU thumb would lesson corruption albeit at a price. Everything in life comes with a price. This will be a stiff one but they do seem united in their path.
In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The United States was caught flat footed with its pants around there knees in late November and early December of the Maidain protests. It only gathered force with funds that flowed in latter on. The reality is if the regime in place had reacted in a concillatory approach it would have a far larger portion of its ill gotten gains. But it would lost the elections in place. The vast majority of Ukraine citizens that I know want little now to do with Russia, and for this Russia has done the ultimate self butt fcuk.
It is not the first time nor will it be the last time for Russia. In my opinion Russia has never done foreign policy beyond its borders very well. Maybe the Czar who came to Holland to study ship building could be considered an exception.
Following the constitution of Ukraine a new President has been elected and he is HAS tried to create greater transparency and openess, threading a large rope through the eye a small needle.
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I think you refer to the rumor that the US was responsible for Maidan.
I was referring to our bipolar foreign policy, not to any one specific event. I'll expand on one example and you can take it for what you think that it's worth.
After the Reagan administration decided that it was in our interests for Iraq to fight a proxy war for us, we transferred chemical weapons technology, issued export licenses for nerve gas precursors, delivery systems, infectious agents and supplied them with intelligence that allowed them to deploy the WMDs with maximum effect on Iranian troops. Later, when it was no longer in our interests to support Iraq, we used the WMDs that we made possible, and encouraged them to use, as an excuse to kill a million (by some estimates) Iraqis.
Now, we are courting Ukraine and encouraging them to "stand up to Russia" because it is in our interests to bring Russia's enemies to their doorstep. Our administration doesn't give a fat hello how many Ukrainians will be killed in the process because the human costs of protecting our interests are not, and will never be, part of the equation.
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I think you refer to the rumor that the US was responsible for Maidan.
I was referring to our bipolar foreign policy, not to any one specific event. I'll expand on one example and you can take it for what you think that it's worth.
After the Reagan administration decided that it was in our interests for Iraq to fight a proxy war for us, we transferred chemical weapons technology, issued export licenses for nerve gas precursors, delivery systems, infectious agents and supplied them with intelligence that allowed them to deploy the WMDs with maximum effect on Iranian troops. Later, when it was no longer in our interests to support Iraq, we used the WMDs that we made possible, and encouraged them to use, as an excuse to kill a million (by some estimates) Iraqis.
Now, we are courting Ukraine and encouraging them to "stand up to Russia" because it is in our interests to bring Russia's enemies to their doorstep. Our administration doesn't give a fat hello how many Ukrainians will be killed in the process because the human costs of protecting our interests are not, and will never be, part of the equation.
I suspect unfortunately a million is on the low side. :(
The reality is in many ways America does foreign "policy" as badly as Russia. The end results point to this reality.
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In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The Baltics are very closely allied with Russia. They are neighbours. Yes they make some anti-Russian noise now and again to appease the US, but are mostly quiet.
Many people there are ethnic Russians, and/or speak Russian and/or identify themselves as Russian. Yet despite American warmongering, there is no tension. All this "NATO protection" stuff is crap. NATO planes are there for NATO warmongering, not the Baltic states security. They have no concern about Russia in reality. None at all. People in the Baltics are not concerned about Russia as there is nothing to worry about - as Putin has underlined several times.
If anyone doubts that, ask and I will show you a tweet from the Estonian president.
OK Manny how is Estonia "very closely allied with Russia"? Estonia is a member of NATO and EU. Estonia did not join Russia's trade alliance with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan.
Does Estonia trade with Russia? Yes but according to Estonia's own figures it does far more trade with the EU. (http://www.stat.ee/72367)
Russia is the #4 country for Estonian's exports (9%) after Sweden, Finland and Latvia. Russia is the #7 country for Estonian imports (6%) after Finland, Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.
As for tweets by Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, I can show you not a single tweet but several that are critical of Putin and Russia. (https://twitter.com/ilvestoomas) Want to trade?
So Manny other than having 30% of the population that identify themselves as ethnic Russians how is Estonia "very closely allied with Russia"? It obviously isn't trade or politics.
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In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The Baltics are very closely allied with Russia. They are neighbours. Yes they make some anti-Russian noise now and again to appease the US, but are mostly quiet.
Many people there are ethnic Russians, and/or speak Russian and/or identify themselves as Russian. Yet despite American warmongering, there is no tension. All this "NATO protection" stuff is crap. NATO planes are there for NATO warmongering, not the Baltic states security. They have no concern about Russia in reality. None at all. People in the Baltics are not concerned about Russia as there is nothing to worry about - as Putin has underlined several times.
If anyone doubts that, ask and I will show you a tweet from the Estonian president.
OK Manny how is Estonia "very closely allied with Russia"? Estonia is a member of NATO and EU. Estonia did not join Russia's trade alliance with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan.
Does Estonia trade with Russia? Yes but according to Estonia's own figures it does far more trade with the EU. (http://www.stat.ee/72367)
Russia is the #4 country for Estonian's exports (9%) after Sweden, Finland and Latvia. Russia is the #7 country for Estonian imports (6%) after Finland, Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.
As for tweets by Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, I can show you not a single tweet but several that are critical of Putin and Russia. (https://twitter.com/ilvestoomas) Want to trade?
So Manny other than having 30% of the population that identify themselves as ethnic Russians how is Estonia "very closely allied with Russia"? It obviously isn't trade or politics.
Westy, I wont waste my time teaching you again. We have been here before. You have never left your cozy armchair, I have a place in Estonia and a wife who is Russian and we have spent a lot of time there. I first went in 98. I think I am a tad better qualified to comment on Estonia than you. :prophead:
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In the end they had a choice for business as usual or something different. If given the choice of EU/USA or living in Russia which would you want? The Baltics are fairly good evidence of what can be once you get away from Russia.
The Baltics are very closely allied with Russia. They are neighbours. Yes they make some anti-Russian noise now and again to appease the US, but are mostly quiet.
Many people there are ethnic Russians, and/or speak Russian and/or identify themselves as Russian. Yet despite American warmongering, there is no tension. All this "NATO protection" stuff is crap. NATO planes are there for NATO warmongering, not the Baltic states security. They have no concern about Russia in reality. None at all. People in the Baltics are not concerned about Russia as there is nothing to worry about - as Putin has underlined several times.
If anyone doubts that, ask and I will show you a tweet from the Estonian president.
OK Manny how is Estonia "very closely allied with Russia"? Estonia is a member of NATO and EU. Estonia did not join Russia's trade alliance with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan.
Does Estonia trade with Russia? Yes but according to Estonia's own figures it does far more trade with the EU. (http://www.stat.ee/72367)
Russia is the #4 country for Estonian's exports (9%) after Sweden, Finland and Latvia. Russia is the #7 country for Estonian imports (6%) after Finland, Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.
As for tweets by Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, I can show you not a single tweet but several that are critical of Putin and Russia. (https://twitter.com/ilvestoomas) Want to trade?
So Manny other than having 30% of the population that identify themselves as ethnic Russians how is Estonia "very closely allied with Russia"? It obviously isn't trade or politics.
Westy, I wont waste my time teaching you again. We have been here before. You have never left your cozy armchair, I have a place in Estonia and a wife who is Russian and we have spent a lot of time there. I first went in 98. I think I am a tad better qualified to comment on Estonia than you. :prophead:
But you're not better qualified to comment than official Estonian statistics which is what I used. In other words you're posting BS. Making stuff up again. :Zzzzsleep:
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I remember getting into a fight with this guy in Bolton, in Frank's Car Parts, all Boltonians know him. Anyway, I sees this guy (this was late 90's) with a CCCP shirt on in there and I ask him where he's from, he goes "Estonia, but this is my country" pointing at CCCP shirt.
He was very aggressive but from Estonia and ethnic Russian but obviously a total knobhead.
Not saying all ethnic Russians in Baltic states are dickbrains but most are in my experience in UK where some drift to.
Anyway I was with my brother who likes a fight and well, thats another story, I'm a lover not a fighter...........
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The view from the Ukrainian side has evolved.
"Mr. Poroshenko promised to step up Kiev’s 'anti-terrorist operation' in the east. 'The operation will not continue for two-three months, but will be over within hours,' he said in televised remarks." ~ 27 May, 2014
"Poroshenko said he still believes there is 'no military solution' to the conflict in the east, adding that he will press Russia to withdraw its soldiers from Ukraine and seal the border." ~ 29 December, 2014
It's remarkable that he still believes that there is no military solution, given his Rumsfeldesque comments only seven months earlier.
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Anyway I was with my brother who likes a fight and well, thats another story, I'm a lover not a fighter...........
sorry for :offtopic:
but
pity i wasn't around, Ste, seems i'd get along with your brother ;D
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http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-ukraine-nationalists-march-kiev-193807371.html
Bandera will return and restore order.
... right after Moses returns and parts the Black Sea.
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(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii618/Ruth_Stefanowitz/add_toon_info_zpsabae1521.gif)
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I remember getting into a fight with this guy in Bolton, in Frank's Car Parts, all Boltonians know him. Anyway, I sees this guy (this was late 90's) with a CCCP shirt on in there and I ask him where he's from, he goes "Estonia, but this is my country" pointing at CCCP shirt.
He was very aggressive but from Estonia and ethnic Russian but obviously a total knobhead.
Not saying all ethnic Russians in Baltic states are dickbrains but most are in my experience in UK where some drift to.
Anyway I was with my brother who likes a fight and well, thats another story, I'm a lover not a fighter...........
Nationalism in moderation is a good thing - I think.
Aggressive Nationalism is seldom good.
I would rather be a lover than a fighter, but sometimes you gotta protect your family.
In which case ....
Wayne
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I hear more and more about the bombings in Odessa, and of course the rest of Ukraine.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/explosions-hit-ukrainian-cities-on-holiday-time-376754.html (http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/explosions-hit-ukrainian-cities-on-holiday-time-376754.html)
Will terrorists pull Ukraine down? Or, will terror push Ukrainians together?
Wayne
PS Happy New Year!
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Ukraine retakes most of Donetsk airport.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/18/us-ukraine-crisis-military-idUSKBN0KR0DH20150118
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Ukraine retakes most of Donetsk airport.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/18/us-ukraine-crisis-military-idUSKBN0KR0DH20150118
RT says different: http://rt.com/news/223891-donetsk-airport-drone-ukraine/
And they are still bombing civilians: http://rt.com/news/223887-ukraine-army-donetsk-bombs/
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RT says different: http://rt.com/news/223891-donetsk-airport-drone-ukraine/
And they are still bombing civilians: http://rt.com/news/223887-ukraine-army-donetsk-bombs/
The TV news footage from this evening showed continued fighting at the Donetsk airport, with new personel from the Ukraine side arriving. The wounded were evacuated earlier.
The OCSE and the UN issued reports very critical of the invaders having using human shields in the combat zone. But this is not the first time Russia and its proxy troops have done so in a conflict zone.
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I watched a bit of RT today. They had a investigative report on the situation with MH17. They seem to have a habit of leaving out parts of the story for it to be balanced. I'm quite entertained watching the wannabe RT reporters lay it all out for the viewers to try and digest.
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I'm quite entertained watching the wannabe RT reporters lay it all out for the viewers to try and digest.
I know two RT reporters, both have a decent background in UK and Irish newspapers, and what they do for RT is good.
They seem to have a habit of leaving out parts of the story
Which is exactly what the western media do, as well as occasionally simply make stuff up. Thus watching some RT and western media should provide one with a balance of opinion.
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Which is exactly what the western media do, as well as occasionally simply make stuff up. Thus watching some RT and western media should provide one with a balance of opinion.
Two sets of diametrically opposed lies don't add up to the truth, though.
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Which is exactly what the western media do, as well as occasionally simply make stuff up. Thus watching some RT and western media should provide one with a balance of opinion.
Two sets of diametrically opposed lies don't add up to the truth, though.
That's where understanding context and doing a little analysis comes in. ;)
It is not rare that Ukrainian sources absolutely lie, there is always an element of confusion in any dynamic situation and, to be sure, until recently RT, for example, tended to present Russian interests in highlight - but I doubt that anyone here can point out something published on, for example, RT.com that was purposefully untrue. Thus a reader learns to weight what they read.
However, when one sees images of blokes like Graham Phillips wandering around Donetsk airport and its environs then one rather understands that it is likely that the Ukrainian forces are no longer present, at least at the time the images were being recorded - the guy may have some kind of death wish but his minders seem keen to keep him alive.
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They seem to have a habit of leaving out parts of the story
Which is exactly what the western media do, as well as occasionally simply make stuff up. Thus watching some RT and western media should provide one with a balance of opinion.
Well I found it unbalanced since they left out the little ditty about parts of the plane being hauled away before any investigation team connected to the flight had arrived, and were able to view the area safely. Totally skipped over that.
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Don, was there a song (ditty) that we all missed?
But what was removed apart from dead bodies and the flight recorders?
Are you sure you are not suffering from some kind of false memory effect?
Where was the removal of parts of the air frame recorded?
If any parts of the air frame were removed were they returned back to the investigation team and were they then removed back to the Netherlands?
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I doubt that anyone here can point out something published on, for example, RT.com that was purposefully untrue. Thus a reader learns to weight what they read.
Oh really?
Here is just one example of RT's purposeful lies, and IHRW's response:
the Kremlin-controlled and pro-Kremlin media presented inaccurate evidence to
ground accusations that Ukrainian forces used white phosphorus munitions. The incident
reflected not only the Kremlin’s determination to discredit the Ukrainian government at all
costs, but also recognition that many countries consider use of white phosphorus weapon
worthy of condemnation. On June 11, 2014, LifeNews (a private pro-Kremlin Russian news
outlet) reported that pro-Russian insurgents claimed a village near the then-separatist
stronghold of Slovyansk had been attacked with white phosphorus weapons.18 The LifeNews
story included footage of a descending luminous substance. On June 12, Russia’s Permanent
Representative to the United Nations expressed outrage at the alleged use of white
phosphorus, which he described as a “prohibited” and “forbidden” weapon.19 Ukraine denied
using the weapon, and Human Rights Watch arms experts later concluded that the footage in
this particular attack did not depict white phosphorus or any other type of incendiary
weapon.
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/related_material/Incendiary%20Weapons_Recent%20Use%20and%20Growing%20Opposition_Nov2014_final.pdf
Crticizing Ukrainian propaganda is one thing; however, don't try to uphold RT or Life news as bastions of truth in comparison, when it is quite obvious they are not.
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But today Kiev bombed a hospital and a university.
And some houses.
Did that not happen? You won't find it on western media but RT has videos.....
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None of this would happen if the rebels would quite attacking the airport. In the minks agreement the airport belongs to the Ukraine. Ukraine should just blow up the power plant then no amount of Russian tanks could fix it. It would take years to build a new plant. RT news is so slanted that is does not even begin to look like news. How much is the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances talked about on RT news?
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But today Kiev bombed a hospital and a university.
And some houses.
Did that not happen? You won't find it on western media but RT has videos.....
Yes, but RT conveniently hides the fact that the separatists are firing under the cover of residential areas, and then moving away when the Ukrainians return fire; you see, it needs context. Listen, this is war: the propaganda is coming from both sides and innocent people are dying becauase of both sides. You say there is no coverage, but IF you look you'll usually find some coverage in Western media:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2918168/Ukraine-shelling-claims-civilian-lives.html
Also, while the OSCE hasn't confirmed who was responsible for the tragedy at Volnovakha, they confirmed the grads came from a north-east direction; territory, under the control of the separatists. Both sides are to blame for killing innocents; it is war, and unfortunately, as always it is civilians who suffer:
The SMM concluded its third fact-finding patrol to government-controlled Volnovakha (35km south-west of Donetsk), where 12 civilian passengers of a bus had been killed and 17 injured on 13 January (see SMM Spot Report 14 January and SMM Daily Report 14 January). The SMM conducted a comprehensive inspection, focusing on five craters caused by explosions that had occurred during the incident. The investigation included comprehensive crater analysis of two specific blast craters, including the crater located 10 metres from the side of the passenger bus. In the SMM’s assessment all craters examined were caused by rockets fired from a north-north-eastern direction.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/135211
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While it is true that rebels are firing from residential areas it is also true that those areas have been uninhabited for many months or weeks, this is particularly of note in the area near the airport. Of course in the case where there is an attack or incursion then both sides will inevitably go into occupied areas - this is war. So, for example, Kiev forces have been sending recon/artillery spotters into residential areas in Donetsk. They are dealt with by the defenders in the place where the enemy are found, in practical terms what else could be done?
The policy of the Kiev forces is specifically to attack areas where civilians live and to specifically attack civilian infrastructure. See the difference?
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While it is true that rebels are firing from residential areas it is also true that those areas have been uninhabited for many months or weeks, this is particularly of note in the area near the airport. Of course in the case where there is an attack or incursion then both sides will inevitably go into occupied areas - this is war. So, for example, Kiev forces have been sending recon/artillery spotters into residential areas in Donetsk. They are dealt with by the defenders in the place where the enemy are found, in practical terms what else could be done?
Many of the residential areas the separatists have fired from are inhabited, they have been filmed. Really, it's not difficult to find this if you look. The village of Pisky, near the airport has long since been deserted by civilians as it has been destroyed by sepratist shelling.
The policy of the Kiev forces is specifically to attack areas where civilians live and to specifically attack civilian infrastructure. See the difference?
In that case, it is also quite obvious that the sepratists have deliberately targeted civilians in Debaltseve and Volnovakha; while destroying civilian infrastructure by blowing up bridges, and killing innocent people in Odessa and Kharkov with terrorist bombs. Can you see both sides? OSCE:
According to the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the Russian Federation Armed Forces representation at the JCCC headquarter in government-controlled Debaltseve (55km north-east of Donetsk), on 19 January at 07:40hrs, at least 30 Grad rockets impacted in and around the centre of Debaltseve killing three civilians and wounding twelve. The SMM observed that the rockets had caused significant damage to buildings and covered an area of approximately one square kilometre. The SMM saw at least seven unexploded rockets (UXOs). A crater analysis performed by the SMM showed that the Grad rockets came from a western direction, the direction of “DPR”-controlled Horlivka.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/135491
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http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3313146-rebel-moves-eastern-ukraine-undermine-hopes-peace.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
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When I read this article, I knew that things would end badly:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/01/18/world/europe/ap-eu-ukraine.html?_r=0
Yuriy Biryukov, an adviser to Poroshenko, said on his Facebook account Sunday that Ukrainian troops had received orders to unleash heavy shelling of known rebel positions.
"Today we will show just how much we can smash their teeth in," Biryukov wrote from a location near the fighting.
Sure enough; it's here:
https://www.facebook.com/yuri.biriukov/posts/1549332092002269?pnref=story
Now this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/more-russian-soldiers-enter-ukraine-as-separatists-extend-land-grab-2015-1
Kiev accused the separatists on Tuesday of seizing more than 500 square km (194 square miles) of territory beyond the agreed separation lines.
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It seems the airport has indeed fallen to the separatists with the help of a large number of Russian forces. That in turn looks like it has triggered what the apologists say occurred last year. Maybe we will get to test some of our new weapons?
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/ (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/army/2015/01/21/ukraine-us-army-russia/22119315/)
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Poroshenko tries his hand at stand-up comedy:
"We have pulled up extra reserves, and if the enemy does not want to respect the ceasefire, if the enemy does not want to end the suffering of civilians... we will be ready to hit them in the teeth,"
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Sashathecat, not even Poroshenko's apologists at NATO are supporting him the 'Russian army is there' claim. Jens Stoltenburg has said that NATO has no evidence to support these claims. Which means that the Ukrainians do not and additionally none of the NATO surveillance has shown anything.
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Sashathecat, not even Poroshenko's apologists at NATO are supporting him the 'Russian army is there' claim. Jens Stoltenburg has said that NATO has no evidence to support these claims. Which means that the Ukrainians do not and additionally none of the NATO surveillance has shown anything.
Not according to this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11233199/Jens-Stoltenberg-the-new-man-at-Nato-who-must-stand-up-to-Putin-and-his-tanks.html
During the last 10 days, President Vladimir Putin has sent columns of Russian soldiers and tanks across the border to reinforce the area of eastern Ukraine held by pro-Moscow rebels. A ceasefire agreed in Minsk on Sept 5 has unravelled and both sides are preparing for renewed fighting.
“We have seen movements of equipment, artillery, tanks, trucks and soldiers into Ukraine and towards the frontline,” says Mr Stoltenberg. “The border between Ukraine and Russia is completely open, so there are movements back and forth, but there is a significant military build-up taking place.”
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Sashathecat, not even Poroshenko's apologists at NATO are supporting him the 'Russian army is there' claim. Jens Stoltenburg has said that NATO has no evidence to support these claims. Which means that the Ukrainians do not and additionally none of the NATO surveillance has shown anything.
Not according to this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11233199/Jens-Stoltenberg-the-new-man-at-Nato-who-must-stand-up-to-Putin-and-his-tanks.html
During the last 10 days, President Vladimir Putin has sent columns of Russian soldiers and tanks across the border to reinforce the area of eastern Ukraine held by pro-Moscow rebels. A ceasefire agreed in Minsk on Sept 5 has unravelled and both sides are preparing for renewed fighting.
“We have seen movements of equipment, artillery, tanks, trucks and soldiers into Ukraine and towards the frontline,” says Mr Stoltenberg. “The border between Ukraine and Russia is completely open, so there are movements back and forth, but there is a significant military build-up taking place.”
And this -
"US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt and NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, on the other hand, this week confirmed the presence of Russian troops, weaponry, and logistics in eastern Ukraine – though they have given no hard numbers."
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebels-back-donetsk-airport-peace-talks-loom-145756372.html (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebels-back-donetsk-airport-peace-talks-loom-145756372.html)
Andrew, the US military did not just decide to send troops in on a whim. We know exactly who is moving about, where they are, and what card Alexei has in his hand while playing a game of durok at this point.
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Sashathecat, not even Poroshenko's apologists at NATO are supporting him the 'Russian army is there' claim. Jens Stoltenburg has said that NATO has no evidence to support these claims. Which means that the Ukrainians do not and additionally none of the NATO surveillance has shown anything.
Again, andrew, not correct; straight from NATO's website. Dutch Brigadier General, Nico Tak, NATO:
"Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine,” said Brigadier General Tak. "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory...... "We have also detected large quantities of advanced weapons, including air defence systems, artillery, tanks, and armoured personnel carriers being transferred to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine,” said Brigadier General Tak. "The presence of these weapons along with substantial numbers of Russian combat troops inside Ukraine make the situation increasingly grave,”
http://www.nato.int/cps/ar/natohq/news_112193.htm
Really Andrew, if you really are impartial, you're just not doing the reading.
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If you think this will change anyones mind, I suggest you heavily pad forehead
as this will be your daily routine :'(
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If you think this will change anyones mind, I suggest you heavily pad forehead
as this will be your daily routine :'(
The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
They may have a point. The faster a new permanent border is established, probably including a land bridge to Crimea, the faster people will stop dying and the west of Ukraine can start pretending to be part of the EU that didn't invite them. We know already that the current western led regime in Ukraine will never regain the east, so better to negotiate a border, stop the war and start rebuilding peoples lives.
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If you think this will change anyones mind, I suggest you heavily pad forehead
as this will be your daily routine :'(
The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
They may have a point. The faster a new permanent border is established, probably including a land bridge to Crimea, the faster people will stop dying and the west of Ukraine can start pretending to be part of the EU that didn't invite them. We know already that the current western led regime in Ukraine will never regain the east, so better to negotiate a border, stop the war and start rebuilding peoples lives.
You are still conveniently ignoring the fact that there was never a problem with discrimination against Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine until Putin's puppet fled Ukraine and Russia said so.
I ask you once again (you never answered before) how come we never heard about this anywhere before, even here on RUA over the years? This forum is full of so much information about Ukraine and it's culture that surely it would have been brought up.
Where is you evidence? (Please, no links from RT!) :coffeeread:
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If you think this will change anyones mind, I suggest you heavily pad forehead
as this will be your daily routine :'(
The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
They may have a point. The faster a new permanent border is established, probably including a land bridge to Crimea, the faster people will stop dying and the west of Ukraine can start pretending to be part of the EU that didn't invite them. We know already that the current western led regime in Ukraine will never regain the east, so better to negotiate a border, stop the war and start rebuilding peoples lives.
I suspect it will never be that simple. The farther Russia pushes into Ukraine, the longer it will take for those two countries to mend the wounds, something that is talked about very little in all of this.
Many Ukrainians are building an out right hate for Putin and Russia.
Never mind the west.
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Krassavachik, please go back and read what I wrote.
NATO's chief can not support the claims made by Poroshenko about these claims and specifically declined to do so. Yes, he too claims that there are satellite images showing material in the Donbass, but as yet nobody has any images of these columns of troops, the tanks, guns or support vehicles. No images, not a sausage, not for a year.
Bear in mind that this is approximately the 40th 'invasion' in the past 12 months. If even a couple of them had been true there'd hardly be room for people to move without walking into a tank column.
There's Russians fighting there, for sure. Nobody disputes it. The rebels have been getting aid from all sorts of funds across Russia, they advertise openly. But that's not what is being claimed. Even Ukrainian POWs are saying they have not seen Russian troops.
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The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
(:) You may have swallowed the RT zombie box, but please don't expect us to follow.
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The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
(:) You may have swallowed the RT zombie box, but please don't expect us to follow.
Agreed. Of all the ignorant BS produced by this conflict, this ethnic cleansing lie is by far the worst.
Many Ukrainians are building an out right hate for Putin and Russia.
I just spent the holidays in Poltava and it seems the hate is well established.
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The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
(:) You may have swallowed the RT zombie box, but please don't expect us to follow.
American politicians in Ukraine with flags and cookies were for what?
American politicians are better serving the American people by being in America, no?
You think Ukraine is funding this by itself? That the elected president was overthrown by simple public opinion? Wake up! This was American led regime change. Ukraine is a pawn in the American war on Russia. Really, most people know this now. It isn't really a secret.
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Krassavachik, please go back and read what I wrote.
NATO's chief can not support the claims made by Poroshenko about these claims and specifically declined to do so. Yes, he too claims that there are satellite images showing material in the Donbass, but as yet nobody has any images of these columns of troops, the tanks, guns or support vehicles. No images, not a sausage, not for a year.
Bear in mind that this is approximately the 40th 'invasion' in the past 12 months. If even a couple of them had been true there'd hardly be room for people to move without walking into a tank column.
There's Russians fighting there, for sure. Nobody disputes it. The rebels have been getting aid from all sorts of funds across Russia, they advertise openly. But that's not what is being claimed. Even Ukrainian POWs are saying they have not seen Russian troops.
Andrew: Sashathecat, not even Poroshenko's apologists at NATO are supporting him the 'Russian army is there' claim. Jens Stoltenburg has said that NATO has no evidence to support these claims. Which means that the Ukrainians do not and additionally none of the NATO surveillance has shown anything.
There is nothing wrong with my reading. You said no one at NATO had claimed there were Russian troops in Ukraine, the NATO link I provided, proves otherwise. I do believe this was posted yesterday:
All the rebel units now have their own patches. Today in Donetsk, Russian army insignia were seen on soldiers next to Zakharchenko also. However, as Russian troops have poured into the porous borders, a marked improvement in artillery accuracy has been reported and coincides with far more Ukrainian deaths. This also happened in August when the sepratists were in trouble. There is plenty of evidence out there if you join the dots.
Not a valid youtube URL
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If you think this will change anyones mind, I suggest you heavily pad forehead
as this will be your daily routine :'(
The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
They may have a point. The faster a new permanent border is established, probably including a land bridge to Crimea, the faster people will stop dying and the west of Ukraine can start pretending to be part of the EU that didn't invite them. We know already that the current western led regime in Ukraine will never regain the east, so better to negotiate a border, stop the war and start rebuilding peoples lives.
You are still conveniently ignoring the fact that there was never a problem with discrimination against Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine until Putin's puppet fled Ukraine and Russia said so.
I ask you once again (you never answered before) how come we never heard about this anywhere before, even here on RUA over the years? This forum is full of so much information about Ukraine and it's culture that surely it would have been brought up.
Where is you evidence? (Please, no links from RT!) :coffeeread:
They are the same people. Of course there was no issue before.
This is a US war against Russia. Kiev is now America's puppet since you chose and installed the new leadership.
Did you read anything here the last year?
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American politicians in Ukraine with flags and cookies were for what?
American politicians are better serving the American people by being in America, no?
You think Ukraine is funding this by itself? That the elected president was overthrown by simple public opinion? Wake up! This was American led regime change. Ukraine is a pawn in the American war on Russia. Really, most people know this now. It isn't really a secret.
After your last comment about ethnic cleansing, I think it's you who need to wake up. Unlike you, I read more than one source of news, and from more than one side. :coffeeread:
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American politicians in Ukraine with flags and cookies were for what?
American politicians are better serving the American people by being in America, no?
You think Ukraine is funding this by itself? That the elected president was overthrown by simple public opinion? Wake up! This was American led regime change. Ukraine is a pawn in the American war on Russia. Really, most people know this now. It isn't really a secret.
After your last comment about ethnic cleansing, I think it's you who need to wake up. Unlike you, I read more than one source of news, and from more than one side. :coffeeread:
Answer my questions then.
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If you think this will change anyones mind, I suggest you heavily pad forehead
as this will be your daily routine :'(
The other side of the coin is that many are critical of Putin for not doing enough to protect the Russians in Novorossiya against NATO/EU/US funded ethnic cleansing. Many think he has been too circumspect and cautious, and should have sent troops in en masse to secure the new borders.
Does VV Putin know something, that Herr Schrodinger did not? Haven't you been telling us all along there are no troops from Russia inside Ukraine's borders?
How can Putin be simultaneously doing "nothing" but then also "not doing enough of what he is doing"?
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Answer my questions then.
Like you have done in the past when I've proven RT articles you've posted as fact to be lies? However: The Ukrainian people themselves chose closer ties to the West. Forget America, they chose it. If the people themselves hadn't wanted it, then no amount of Western backing would have made a difference. The people are tired of the successive corruption of their leaders; not only of Yanukovych. Putin isn't going to let Ukraine go. He needs it for his Euraisain Union to succeed. He also doesn't see it as a real country, and if MH17 hadn't of happened, as a minimum, the land bridge would already have been achieved.
Now let me ask you a question. How do you think a bunch of rebels in a poor area can continue to pound Ukrainians for almost a year with an endless supply of Grads, tanks, trucks and equipment that no longer matches what the Ukrainians have, but surpasses it? Where have the rebels got the money for that? Or have they just picked them up at the local market? Check above YT link as one example of many.
You've been to Russia so i'm sure you know of Ren Tv. Remeber all those stories of US special forces in Ukraine? Well, one night they had a guy dressed in the corresponding uniform, informing viewers that US soldiers were there; yet, there hasn't been one story or proof, and the sepratists have inflicted some heavy losses.
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But today Kiev bombed a hospital and a university.
And some houses.
Did that not happen? You won't find it on western media but RT has videos.....
I wish NATO would hammer the fuk out of the pro Russians, and send what's left alive crawling back to Russia where they can live under the Putin regime. The west needs to do more to show Putin he can not continue with his Hitler like plan to seize foreign lands. What the west needs to do is a good old fashioned carpet bombing of their positions. Rattle the boys on 'holidays' give them disequilibrium and let their ears ring.
And that next white convoy of 'aid' that comes rolling into UA, the NATO boys should swoop in and let them have all 9 yards.
Problem these days is the west is more concerned with not killing civilians, meanwhile Putin has no problem racking up the dead like cords of wood. Although I hate to see innocents lose their lives, I think if I was in their shoes I would rather live on the streets in Odessa than wind up getting killed.
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The Russians are using their first line equipment and I think America and NATO see this as an opportunity to study this equipment. NATO has said there are all the frequencies of the last inclusion by Russia showing they are using there most modern equipment this time also. I think what NATO wants to do here is make the war more costly to the Russia but not defeat them. Just up the cost while Russia can not say too much of anything because they denign being there at all. The US Army General was in KIEV almost the day after the airport was lost and the Russians are already screaming fowl and claiming we are destabilizing the Ukraine. The Pro Russians are advancing and Russia is complaining about Kiev escalation the war. What is with that? As there equipment is better studied it can be made obsolete costing the Russia billions of dollars to have to design new equipment. You notice very little is being said and very little complaining by NATO this time. It is Russia that is doing all winning and complaining. The Rebels won and Russia is not in the Ukraine so what is the problem? The problem is they lie and it cost them a bunch of money for relative little land. They can see they will continue to win but the cost are going to keep going up. I do not think it is to America interest to prove anything at this time. What I see here is the sanctions are going to be replaced with a war that will be costly to Russia. The rest of the world will keep saying the rebels are winning and Russia is not there so what is Russia complaining about?
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Russia gives old weapons including some taken in Georgia along with a small amount of newer models. It is also said that they push the rebels into the front to die first. Here is a recent listing of weapons that have been seen and how they match up with Ukrainian weapons. Many are the same types as Ukraine while some are only native to Russia.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/weapons-russia-is-pouring-into-east-ukraine-2015-1?op=1
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Haven't you been telling us all along there are no troops from Russia inside Ukraine's borders?
I've been saying its remarkable there is no proof as such. If it is happening to the extent people say.
Interesting article here from the NYT in 1993: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/17/world/ukraine-s-miners-bemoan-the-cost-of-independence.html
For the miners of the Donbass region, formerly lauded as heroes of the Soviet state, Ukrainian independence makes little sense. Perhaps nowhere are the costs more evident than in this city, whose deterioration from a robust industrial center to a wasteland of ancient pits and factories has accelerated since the collapse of the Soviet Union in December 1991.
Most of the people of Donetsk are ethnic Russians with relatives just 100 miles away, and many of them say they care little about Ukrainian nationalism.
Many analysts say it is hard for Ukraine, which has no fuel or lumber reserves, to convince itself that it has full independence when it depends on Russia for most of its oil and gas.
Grigory Nemirya, director of the Political Studies Center in Donetsk, said the Kiev Government's policy was maintaining "an illusion of independence" even though it was unable to pay Moscow in hard currency for fuel.
"Immediately after the strike, President Kravchuk went to Russia and stressed his economic ties with Russia," he said. "This reflects the influence of the east and the strike." Separation Called Foolhardy
The miners and bosses of Donetsk describe their strike as an inevitable response to what they view as their Government's foolhardy rush to separate from Russia.
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I wish NATO would hammer the fuk out of the pro Russians, and send what's left alive crawling back to Russia where they can live under the Putin regime. The west needs to do more to show Putin he can not continue with his Hitler like plan to seize foreign lands. What the west needs to do is a good old fashioned carpet bombing of their positions. Rattle the boys on 'holidays' give them disequilibrium and let their ears ring.
And that next white convoy of 'aid' that comes rolling into UA, the NATO boys should swoop in and let them have all 9 yards.
Problem these days is the west is more concerned with not killing civilians, meanwhile Putin has no problem racking up the dead like cords of wood. Although I hate to see innocents lose their lives, I think if I was in their shoes I would rather live on the streets in Odessa than wind up getting killed.
Your attitude is not unlike that of many Americans. Unfortunately, you deep thinkers never consider the likely consequences of those actions: scorched earth in what was once Ukraine and a good reason for Russia to test her latest generation of nuclear weapons on the population centers of NATO members.
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Don, think of it this way. The reason why there is a civil war is because people like you caused other people to be concerned enough for their safety that they wanted a commitment to that safety. The response was that the junta declared everyone living in the region a terrorist and dispatched army and air force to kill 'em all.
The people being killed by the Kiev forces are, almost without exception, civilians. Some of whom took up arms to protect themselves and their homes - but even now only a tiny minority of the population.
The aid that is being carried is only a small part of what is really needed by the people living in the region but is vastly more than anyone else is sending.
It is a good thing that your peers in the Canadian intelligentsia do not have such a loud voice, even though your peers - just like you - are having your opinions moulded for you.
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The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
Barry
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I wish NATO would hammer the fuk out of the pro Russians, and send what's left alive crawling back to Russia where they can live under the Putin regime. The west needs to do more to show Putin he can not continue with his Hitler like plan to seize foreign lands. What the west needs to do is a good old fashioned carpet bombing of their positions. Rattle the boys on 'holidays' give them disequilibrium and let their ears ring.
And that next white convoy of 'aid' that comes rolling into UA, the NATO boys should swoop in and let them have all 9 yards.
Problem these days is the west is more concerned with not killing civilians, meanwhile Putin has no problem racking up the dead like cords of wood. Although I hate to see innocents lose their lives, I think if I was in their shoes I would rather live on the streets in Odessa than wind up getting killed.
A direct involvement of NATO would be a bad thing. Instead and unfortunately I see a situation not unlike Afghanistan where the west and NATO supplies arms and training. There seems to be growing sentiment in the west for greater support the Ukraine military.
A better result would be if Russia focused on its own problems at home and did not meddle across borders, there would be fewer lives lost on both sides.
Don, think of it this way. The reason why there is a civil war is because people like you caused other people to be concerned enough for their safety that they wanted a commitment to that safety. The response was that the junta declared everyone living in the region a terrorist and dispatched army and air force to kill 'em all.
The people being killed by the Kiev forces are, almost without exception, civilians. Some of whom took up arms to protect themselves and their homes - but even now only a tiny minority of the population.
The aid that is being carried is only a small part of what is really needed by the people living in the region but is vastly more than anyone else is sending.
It is a good thing that your peers in the Canadian intelligentsia do not have such a loud voice, even though your peers - just like you - are having your opinions moulded for you.
I am not entirely sure what juanta that Andrew has in his fantasy. In Ukraine there was an election for a new Rada and president following the laws of Ukraine.
For what it is worth the Russian invaders killed by a mislle attack some 12 civilians at a bus stop.
Numerous independent observers have called on the Russian side to stop using civilians as defense shields and firing weapons from residential areas.
The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
I do not think it can be called a civil war. By some estimates as many as 80% of the combantants on the Russian side are either Russian troops using Russian equipment or military units from the Caucasian regions that are loyal to Moscow. Part of this is the reason why there was last year an upsurge in Dagestan and Chechnya of anti-goverment attacks.
Off course if Russia withdrew there support and troops the entire region would return to the situation of over a year ago.
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Nato should do same as Russian, send troops and equipment in and just deny all of it, seems to be working for Russia :chuckle:
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The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
Barry
The reason why there is a war, is because the United states once again interfering where they didn't belong.
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The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
Barry
The reason why there is a war, is because the United states once again interfering where they didn't belong.
And it had nothing to do with Putin :chuckle:
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The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
Barry
The reason why there is a war, is because the United states once again interfering where they didn't belong.
And it had nothing to do with Putin :chuckle:
First you need to go to the source of the problem before you can place blame.
Putin was not, and is not the one that started this.
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The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
Barry
The reason why there is a war, is because the United states once again interfering where they didn't belong.
And it had nothing to do with Putin :chuckle:
First you need to go to the source of the problem before you can place blame.
Putin was not, and is not the one that started this.
I am uncertain are you trying to be factitious? For generations even centuries Russia has meddled in Ukraine affairs denying the population of there aspirations. I would guess this is the source of the problem that you mention.
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The reason their is a civil war is Russia keeps sending troops and money to support it. Other wise it would go away.
Barry
The reason why there is a war, is because the United states once again interfering where they didn't belong.
And it had nothing to do with Putin :chuckle:
First you need to go to the source of the problem before you can place blame.
Putin was not, and is not the one that started this.
I am uncertain are you trying to be factitious? For generations even centuries Russia has meddled in Ukraine affairs denying the population of there aspirations. I would guess this is the source of the problem that you mention.
I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
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I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
Perhaps true, but one could switch Russia and the United States and the statement would also be true.
-
I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
Perhaps true, but one could switch Russia and the United States and the statement would also be true.
Yes Many forget Ukraine was about to sign deal with EU and Putin, got involved.
So not really any different. Go ask Ukrainian people on the street, average folks
what they think.
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I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
:thumbsup:
-
I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
:thumbsup:
Answer the questions!
-
I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
Perhaps true, but one could switch Russia and the United States and the statement would also be true.
Yes Many forget Ukraine was about to sign deal with EU and Putin, got involved.
So not really any different. Go ask Ukrainian people on the street, average folks
what they think.
Not quite. He had a choice, he chose the Russian deal. That caused the US to press the 'regime change' button. Now we have thousands needlessly dead. Russia and Ukraine trucked along OK side by side since the early 90's. Then Uncle Sam decided to spread some democracy there.................
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I'm referring to the current situation, Russia and Ukraine would not be as they are now,had the United states minded their own affairs.
:thumbsup:
Answer the questions!
Right after you answer mine. tiphat
-
Right after you answer mine. tiphat
I already did; but don't worry, I already know you ignore posts when faced with uncomfortable truths to your RT World. :coffeeread:
-
Yes Many forget Ukraine was about to sign deal with EU and Putin, got involved.
So not really any different. Go ask Ukrainian people on the street, average folks
what they think.
The average DUB probably doesn't remember (You don't either.) that Putin gave Yanukovych a much better deal than the EU was prepared to give, including a massive loan package, preferential trade status and a bargain-basement price on gas ($285).
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The reason why there is a war, is because the United States once again interfering where they didn't belong.
That's true; we even have the infamous Victoria Nuland video as evidence of the extent to which the State Department was manipulating events.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video
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To understand what is talking place in Ukraine, you just need to go back a few years to see what really led up to this.
Up until 2012 the United states was able to send billions in aid to Russia.
Few understand it's much like selling your soul to the Devil.
US aid does not come directly from the US government, and you won't find a paper trail.
The aid is supposed to help rebuild infrastructure,and for humanitarian efforts.
But a large amount of the money goes to regime change, and political unrest.
In 2012 Putin said no more to uncle Sam, and the United states had a difficult time to then undermine Putin's authority within Russia.
The U.S.had before funded the Orange revolution and set it's sights once again on Ukraine.
Everything that is talking place is the to manipulate how the world views Putin and Russia.
I actually think Putin has shown great restraint during this time.
If you want to believe Putin and Russia are to blame, then uncle Sam has successfully fooled you
-
To understand what is talking place in Ukraine, you just need to go back a few years to see what really led up to this.
Up until 2012 the United states was able to send billions in aid to Russia.
The US sent the money to help Russia “fight AIDS there, fight tuberculosis, help orphans, help the disabled, combat trafficking, support Russian programs in the environmental area, wildlife protection.”
If you do a little reading you'll realise that Russia has a problem with AIDS and TB amongst other diseases.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/19/13956839-russia-tells-us-we-dont-want-your-aid-money?lite
US aid does not come directly from the US government, and you won't find a paper trail.
The aid is supposed to help rebuild infrastructure,and for humanitarian efforts.
But a large amount of the money goes to regime change, and political unrest.
In the case you're referring to the aid came directly from USAID, a US federal agency.
http://www.usaid.gov/
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The ignorance never ends.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-front-usaid-spreading-democracy-gearing-up-in-ukraine-suharto-ii/5381174
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Manny, he was Putins man, he did what he was told ( bribed) to do.
Yes Tom a better deal for the same old, as last 20 years.
thousands are dead, because the Ukrainian people did not accept that choice and Putin wasn't happy about it.
If he had never gone into Kyrm or the east the rebel movement would have died out pretty quick.
Yes some do forget quickly, maybe you two should actually take a trip there and see what the average
folks there are saying :)
-
Manny, he was Putins man, he did what he was told ( bribed) to do.
Yes Tom a better deal for the same old, as last 20 years.
thousands are dead, because the Ukrainian people did not accept that choice and Putin wasn't happy about it.
If he had never gone into Kyrm or the east the rebel movement would have died out pretty quick.
Yes some do forget quickly, maybe you two should actually take a trip there and see what the average
folks there are saying :)
NS1,
If the United states or the EU, had wanted to help Ukraine, they should have done so many years ago.
-
The ignorance never ends.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-front-usaid-spreading-democracy-gearing-up-in-ukraine-suharto-ii/5381174
It appears the ignorance doesn't end. Global Research was founded by Michel Chossudovsky who regularly writes for RT. Global Research is a conspiracy website with any number of stories with conspiracies about 9/11 and FEMA and prison camps, etc etc.
-
The ignorance never ends.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-front-usaid-spreading-democracy-gearing-up-in-ukraine-suharto-ii/5381174
It appears the ignorance doesn't end. Global Research was founded by Michel Chossudovsky who regularly writes for RT. Global Research is a conspiracy website with any number of stories with conspiracies about 9/11 and FEMA and prison camps, etc etc.
Rubbishing the source again Westy? Gosh, that's not like you. :chuckle:
-
Manny, he was Putins man, he did what he was told ( bribed) to do.
Yes Tom a better deal for the same old, as last 20 years.
thousands are dead, because the Ukrainian people did not accept that choice and Putin wasn't happy about it.
If he had never gone into Kyrm or the east the rebel movement would have died out pretty quick.
Yes some do forget quickly, maybe you two should actually take a trip there and see what the average
folks there are saying :)
NS1,
If the United states or the EU, had wanted to help Ukraine, they should have done so many years ago.
You could say the same about Russia, the EU agreement was a long time coming and only the first step.
At this point the Ukrainian people ( majority ) want this, best I can tell is their country, their choice.
So if the EU or anyone else wishes to help them and they accept that help, its their choice also.
Russia has had control of Ukraine for years, they could have done more so this would never have happened.
Its easy to say the US & EU should not be there, if Russia had of done it right, they wouldn't be there.
-
The ignorance never ends.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-front-usaid-spreading-democracy-gearing-up-in-ukraine-suharto-ii/5381174
It appears the ignorance doesn't end. Global Research was founded by Michel Chossudovsky who regularly writes for RT. Global Research is a conspiracy website with any number of stories with conspiracies about 9/11 and FEMA and prison camps, etc etc.
Rubbishing the source again Westy? Gosh, that's not like you. :chuckle:
This from the guy that says all western media is biased against Russia. :laugh:
-
Manny, he was Putins man, he did what he was told ( bribed) to do.
Yes Tom a better deal for the same old, as last 20 years.
thousands are dead, because the Ukrainian people did not accept that choice and Putin wasn't happy about it.
If he had never gone into Kyrm or the east the rebel movement would have died out pretty quick.
Yes some do forget quickly, maybe you two should actually take a trip there and see what the average
folks there are saying :)
NS1,
If the United states or the EU, had wanted to help Ukraine, they should have done so many years ago.
Odd, you seem to be completely ignoring years of foreign aid from the US but EU to not only to Russia but Ukraine.
US aid -
1998 Ukraine 233 million (Russia 139 million)
Increasing each year thru 2011 to 800 mil
(a bit less in 2012) to Ukraine.
Also odd that the stability of governments is usually one of the goals of such aid, like the Marshall plan..were billions were dumped into UK, France, Germany etc..
It's the same thing but nobody squaked then.
Also seemingly ignored is that most foreign aid is through the 28 members of the DAC.
Those members spent 135 billion in developmental aid to other countries in 2013.
EU countries and EU institutions giving about 85 billion of that ,
the USA about 32 billion
but again the US is the *bad guys* no matter what.
It's not a new concept.I heard *yankee go home* back in 1984.
I don't think the US , or the EU is completely innocent in recent events in Ukraine, I certainly don't pretend Russia is.
-
The ignorance never ends.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-front-usaid-spreading-democracy-gearing-up-in-ukraine-suharto-ii/5381174
It appears the ignorance doesn't end. Global Research was founded by Michel Chossudovsky who regularly writes for RT. Global Research is a conspiracy website with any number of stories with conspiracies about 9/11 and FEMA and prison camps, etc etc.
Rubbishing the source again Westy? Gosh, that's not like you. :chuckle:
Well it is a fairly amusing source?
Good o'le Scotty Creighton does seem to spin the US training might be for NAZI NAZI NAZI Ukrainian troops pretty well don't you think? :chuckle:
Lets just ignore the vast billions spent in Israel by the US , to support a Jewish state, and the underlying support the US has traditionally shown Israel ?
because we truly support Nazis Nazis nazis!! (:)
That's a real stretch for anyone but the black helicopter theorists like Scotty, who would never be selling controversy for fun or profit.
:hidechair:
-
Well it is a fairly amusing source?
Good o'le Scotty Creighton does seem to spin the US training might be for NAZI NAZI NAZI Ukrainian troops pretty well don't you think? :chuckle:
Lets just ignore the vast billions spent in Israel by the US , to support a Jewish state, and the underlying support the US has traditionally shown Israel ?
because we truly support Nazis Nazis nazis!! (:)
That's a real stretch for anyone but the black helicopter theorists like Scotty, who would never be selling controversy for fun or profit.
:hidechair:
That old chestnut again. :chuckle:
-
That old chestnut again. :chuckle:
and sure! why not ? it seems to work!
I think calling people Philistines for effect is just a tad out of date , so Nazi it is!
-
That old chestnut again. :chuckle:
and sure! why not ? it seems to work!
I think calling people Philistines for effect is just a tad out of date , so Nazi it is!
Unfortunately AJ, you're right, it does work.
-
Manny, he was Putins man, he did what he was told ( bribed) to do.
Yes Tom a better deal for the same old, as last 20 years.
thousands are dead, because the Ukrainian people did not accept that choice and Putin wasn't happy about it.
If he had never gone into Kyrm or the east the rebel movement would have died out pretty quick.
Yes some do forget quickly, maybe you two should actually take a trip there and see what the average
folks there are saying :)
NS1,
If the United states or the EU, had wanted to help Ukraine, they should have done so many years ago.
Odd, you seem to be completely ignoring years of foreign aid from the US but EU to not only to Russia but Ukraine.
US aid -
1998 Ukraine 233 million (Russia 139 million)
Increasing each year thru 2011 to 800 mil
(a bit less in 2012) to Ukraine.
Also odd that the stability of governments is usually one of the goals of such aid, like the Marshall plan..were billions were dumped into UK, France, Germany etc..
It's the same thing but nobody squaked then.
Also seemingly ignored is that most foreign aid is through the 28 members of the DAC.
Those members spent 135 billion in developmental aid to other countries in 2013.
EU countries and EU institutions giving about 85 billion of that ,
the USA about 32 billion
but again the US is the *bad guys* no matter what.
It's not a new concept.I heard *yankee go home* back in 1984.
I don't think the US , or the EU is completely innocent in recent events in Ukraine, I certainly don't pretend Russia is.
I
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/06/world/la-fg-usaid-troubles-20130507
-
The type of weapons the Pro russian forces are using.
http://www.businessinsider.com/weapons-russia-is-pouring-into-east-ukraine-2015-1?op=1
-
The reason why there is a war, is because the United States once again interfering where they didn't belong.
That's true; we even have the infamous Victoria Nuland video as evidence of the extent to which the State Department was manipulating events.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video
That link is hugely cringeworthy and doesn't serve US politics in any way what so ever! :sick0012:
-
Manny, he was Putins man, he did what he was told ( bribed) to do.
Yes Tom a better deal for the same old, as last 20 years.
thousands are dead, because the Ukrainian people did not accept that choice and Putin wasn't happy about it.
If he had never gone into Kyrm or the east the rebel movement would have died out pretty quick.
Yes some do forget quickly, maybe you two should actually take a trip there and see what the average
folks there are saying :)
NS1,
If the United states or the EU, had wanted to help Ukraine, they should have done so many years ago.
Odd, you seem to be completely ignoring years of foreign aid from the US but EU to not only to Russia but Ukraine.
US aid -
1998 Ukraine 233 million (Russia 139 million)
Increasing each year thru 2011 to 800 mil
(a bit less in 2012) to Ukraine.
Also odd that the stability of governments is usually one of the goals of such aid, like the Marshall plan..were billions were dumped into UK, France, Germany etc..
It's the same thing but nobody squaked then.
Also seemingly ignored is that most foreign aid is through the 28 members of the DAC.
Those members spent 135 billion in developmental aid to other countries in 2013.
EU countries and EU institutions giving about 85 billion of that ,
the USA about 32 billion
but again the US is the *bad guys* no matter what.
It's not a new concept.I heard *yankee go home* back in 1984.
I don't think the US , or the EU is completely innocent in recent events in Ukraine, I certainly don't pretend Russia is.
I
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/06/world/la-fg-usaid-troubles-20130507
From the LA Times article:
The problem is USAID doesn't just try to boost economies, healthcare and education in poor countries. It also spends about $2.8 billion a year teaching campaign skills to political groups, encouraging independent media, organizing fair elections and funding other grass-roots activities intended to promote democracy and human rights.
I can see why Putin would be afraid of the promotion of democracy and human rights. They're definitely not things he believes in.
-
The reason why there is a war, is because the United States once again interfering where they didn't belong.
That's true; we even have the infamous Victoria Nuland video as evidence of the extent to which the State Department was manipulating events.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video
That link is hugely cringeworthy and doesn't serve US politics in any way what so ever! :sick0012:
You can call it interfering and I will call it guidance for a country turned upside down and trying to setup a government on short notice. The alternative if we had stayed out of it could have been somewhere between a disaster and business as usual. Klitschko would have been the disaster. The man may mean well but is an idiot.
The results have been good or bad depending on which side you are on.
It was mainly embarrassing because our secure communication was tapped, we said a bad word about the EU and we got caught giving more help than we let onto. The latter only really bad because Russia was on the other side hoping for failure.
And none of this had anything to do with the protest and overthrow of government.
-
That link is hugely cringeworthy and doesn't serve US politics in any way what so ever! :sick0012:
Unfortunately, the underlying message is even worse than the face value of their words: "We don't care about the consequences to Europe, or about how many Ukrainians and Russians die, in the course of pursuing American interests."
Ironically, our State Department, Executive Branch, Department of Defense and intelligence agencies don't care about how many Americans will die, in the course of pursuing American interests, either.
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Rebels want to continue the land grab.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/world/2015/01/23/pro-russian-rebels-reject-peace-deal-launch-offensive/22220929/
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I believe, The Rebels never did want to engage in any peace talks and were never planning to abide my the Minsk as they wanted more land.
"Since we're attacking, there is no sense to have peace talks now," Aleksandr Zakharchenko, leader of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, said in a meeting with university students, according to his media office.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/23/world/ukraine-crisis/index.html
The fresh attacks come in the wake of comments from rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko, who said the separatists will no longer engage in any more ceasefire talks. "We will strike out until we reach the border of the Donetsk region,” he said, talking to RIA Novosti, on Friday. “If I see any threat to the Donetsk area from any settlement, I will destroy the threat where it is.”
The advances by rebel forces, who began attacking the Ukraine government-held town of Mariupol in southern Ukraine Friday, are likely to undermine a tentative peace deal signed earlier this week in Berlin between foreign ministers from Ukraine, Russia, Germany and France.
http://www.ibtimes.com/pro-russian-rebels-commence-russia-backed-offensive-donetsk-1793356
Notice that he threaten citizens who oppose his army. As nearly no one is eastern Ukraine want anything to do the the rebels. This is why this is not a civil war but a proxy war with Russia. One made up of Russian army personnel on supposedly vacation using Russian weapons. These people are just Russian army invading Ukraine. This is just away to have an excuse no matter how many Russians military get killed they were just war tourist on leave. Just more smoke and mirror with Putin's endless lies.
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I believe, The Rebels never did want to engage in any peace talks and were never planning to abide my the Minsk as they wanted more land.
Notice that he threaten citizens who oppose his army. As nearly no one is eastern Ukraine want anything to do the the rebels. This is why this is not a civil war but a proxy war with Russia. One made up of Russian army personnel on supposedly vacation using Russian weapons. These people are just Russian army invading Ukraine. This is just away to have an excuse no matter how many Russians military get killed they were just war tourist on leave. Just more smoke and mirror with Putin's endless lies.
A. Zakharchenko has an interesting 'background'. What amused me before I left Kiev was hearing a taped conversation of I. Girkin on TV bemoaning the lack of support from the Donetsk population for the invaders.
For what it is worth Julia has rented a number of apartements in Kiev over the last couple of months to those who have fled Donetsk and Lugansk and are restarting in Kiev. Two couples were not allowed to vote in the referendum because there Russian sounded too Ukrainian. And I wonder who are the real Nazis, perhaps Putin and his minions?
-
The ignorance never ends.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-front-usaid-spreading-democracy-gearing-up-in-ukraine-suharto-ii/5381174
That's an interesting read, thanks Tom.
-
^ Here's a random link for further reading: http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/12659
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon, both here and in the real world. When intelligent people are presented with evidence that conflicts with their belief system, they apply critical thinking in an attempt to determine whether the evidence or their belief system is flawed. On the other hand, when stupid people are presented with such evidence, they reject it out of hand and don't bother to do any fact-checking.
-
Texan,
If you lived in Donetsk, I suspect that you would try to push K'yiv's fighters completely out of the Donetsk Oblast by any means necessary, as would I.
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Texan,
If you lived in Donetsk, I suspect that you would try to push K'yiv's fighters completely out of the Donetsk Oblast by any means necessary, as would I.
See AV's post concerning Girkin a few posts above. Then re-read your immediately prior post in this thread. Results of your critical thinking are... ?
-
^ If I was an ethnic Russian living in Donetsk, then Girkin could count on my support.
-
^ Here's a random link for further reading: http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/12659
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon, both here and in the real world. When intelligent people are presented with evidence that conflicts with their belief system, they apply critical thinking in an attempt to determine whether the evidence or their belief system is flawed. On the other hand, when stupid people are presented with such evidence, they reject it out of hand and don't bother to do any fact-checking.
I don't think Manny is stupid, yet he does reject anything said about Pro Russians when it comes to Ukraine.
Almost everyone supporting Ukraine in this has at one time or another shown they read more than just the western propaganda. They have admitted wrongs done by west and Ukraine.
You tend to predict what you believe also. In war nothing is that simple.
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^ Here's a random link for further reading: http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/12659
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon, both here and in the real world. When intelligent people are presented with evidence that conflicts with their belief system, they apply critical thinking in an attempt to determine whether the evidence or their belief system is flawed. On the other hand, when stupid people are presented with such evidence, they reject it out of hand and don't bother to do any fact-checking.
I don't think Manny is stupid, yet he does reject anything said about Pro Russians when it comes to Ukraine.
Almost everyone supporting Ukraine in this has at one time or another shown they read more than just the western propaganda. They have admitted wrongs done by west and Ukraine.
You tend to predict what you believe also. In war nothing is that simple.
Well, first your bolded bit is untrue.
And second, some of us predicted how all this would play out from the start. And haven't been wrong yet a year later. The objectives of all parties are not complex. But not wholly reported in the western media, so one must also (note that 'also' is not a synonym with exclusively) digest other media to get a picture. Yet some of us know what is happening and what will happen. How is that possible without the intrepid reporting of Yahoo, CNN and Fox? Dwell on that. :chuckle:
Really, how difficult is this? The writing is on the wall. If you have a question about how this will turn out, do ask.
If I get chance over the next few days, I'll put a no link/no argument 'opinion and prediction' topic/poll together, and we can review it in a year. Maybe we will even have a few side wagers. Then we will see how accurate we all are as political pundits. It sure will beat arguing.
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http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21640374-new-bail-out-will-be-no-panacea-bigger-and-better
I'm curious why some think Ukraine would be better off as part of the EU?
Clearly Ukraine can't support itself now, or any time in the near future.
Like it or not Russia was and still is the best options Ukraine has.
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http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21640374-new-bail-out-will-be-no-panacea-bigger-and-better
I'm curious why some think Ukraine would be better off as part of the EU?
Clearly Ukraine can't support itself now, or any time in the near future.
Like it or not Russia was and still is the best options Ukraine has.
I think this here, is the core of Yanukovich's misstake. If he had bothered to explain to his people why Europe was not a real option, things wouldve gone totally different.
Just explain to average joe, that Europe has quality standards on food-import and they would never make it.
That Europe means Russia will no longer discount its gas pricing but ask full price
That Europe would mean cutting pensioners income in half to get a grip on goverment spending (mandatory EU stuff).
....
List does not end here, but i think everyone can get the big picture.
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I wish NATO would hammer the fuk out of the pro Russians, and send what's left alive crawling back to Russia where they can live under the Putin regime. The west needs to do more to show Putin he can not continue with his Hitler like plan to seize foreign lands. What the west needs to do is a good old fashioned carpet bombing of their positions. Rattle the boys on 'holidays' give them disequilibrium and let their ears ring.
And that next white convoy of 'aid' that comes rolling into UA, the NATO boys should swoop in and let them have all 9 yards.
Problem these days is the west is more concerned with not killing civilians, meanwhile Putin has no problem racking up the dead like cords of wood. Although I hate to see innocents lose their lives, I think if I was in their shoes I would rather live on the streets in Odessa than wind up getting killed.
Your attitude is not unlike that of many Americans. Unfortunately, you deep thinkers never consider the likely consequences of those actions: scorched earth in what was once Ukraine and a good reason for Russia to test her latest generation of nuclear weapons on the population centers of NATO members.
I was hoping my post would garner some response. I have spent days touring European battlefields, museums and their cemeteries. So I'm quite aware what the consequences my off the cuff Yankee thinking would be. I do however highly doubt that nuclear weapons would be used, not because Putin would care about the death count and misery, after all he is considered to be behind the apartment bombings in Russia. But the land would be useless for some time.
The west should be doing much more to arm the UA military, there is no point dragging this conflict on and on. Hammering the Russian forces before another 'aid' convoy arrives preventing them from resupplying themselves. Ukraine with enough help could hit any intrusions on its soil.
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Some of you seem to think Ukrainians do not understand anything that is going on.
I do believe that this is one thing foreigners do not understand. Ukraine is right in the middle of everything. They know exactly what happened with the war in Georgia (along with other things) and they know exactly how painful the EU changeover was for the Baltics. Everything went downhill before it all went uphill and it took time. If you want a better life it comes with a price and if you really want it badly you may be willing to pay it.
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I wish NATO would hammer the fuk out of the pro Russians, and send what's left alive crawling back to Russia where they can live under the Putin regime. The west needs to do more to show Putin he can not continue with his Hitler like plan to seize foreign lands. What the west needs to do is a good old fashioned carpet bombing of their positions. Rattle the boys on 'holidays' give them disequilibrium and let their ears ring.
And that next white convoy of 'aid' that comes rolling into UA, the NATO boys should swoop in and let them have all 9 yards.
Problem these days is the west is more concerned with not killing civilians, meanwhile Putin has no problem racking up the dead like cords of wood. Although I hate to see innocents lose their lives, I think if I was in their shoes I would rather live on the streets in Odessa than wind up getting killed.
Your attitude is not unlike that of many Americans. Unfortunately, you deep thinkers never consider the likely consequences of those actions: scorched earth in what was once Ukraine and a good reason for Russia to test her latest generation of nuclear weapons on the population centers of NATO members.
I was hoping my post would garner some response. I have spent days touring European battlefields, museums and their cemeteries. So I'm quite aware what the consequences my off the cuff Yankee thinking would be. I do however highly doubt that nuclear weapons would be used, not because Putin would care about the death count and misery, after all he is considered to be behind the apartment bombings in Russia. But the land would be useless for some time.
The west should be doing much more to arm the UA military, there is no point dragging this conflict on and on. Hammering the Russian forces before another 'aid' convoy arrives preventing them from resupplying themselves. Ukraine with enough help could hit any intrusions on its soil.
Science fiction is often right on the mark and some day those of us who are left may be watching mad max in real time but really now, Russia using a nuke on anyone would be the same as saying please nuke me back. Putin likes to play chess so he talks big but I don't think he really wants to die.
Now a full ground and air war is very possible. His troops that are not in Ukraine already are waiting on the border just for such a thing as an intervention or buildup and perhaps that threat needs to be called.
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http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21640374-new-bail-out-will-be-no-panacea-bigger-and-better
I'm curious why some think Ukraine would be better off as part of the EU?
Tom Cat it's not hard to understand why Ukraine would be better off as part of the EU than as a partner in a trade union with Russia or as an independent state. Let's do the latter first.
Putin will not allow Ukraine to exist as an independent state. Why? Because it's not in Russia's interest. Russia needs a land bridge to Crimea. It would cost billions to build and years to plan and complete. With some luck and complacency by the EU and US Putin can seize all of Ukraine east of the Dnieper in a few years. It will cost Russia some soldiers but far less rubles than building a bridge to Crimea. Seizing the required Ukrainian land can also be done far quicker than building a bridge.
Seizing this part of Ukraine will also give Russia a resource rich and industrial area. There's also rumoured to be oil and natural gas in the Black Sea. Maybe along that particular coast of present day Ukraine? With the addition of this part of Ukraine also comes more coast line and coastal waters on the Black Sea for Russia. Protection for Russia's Black Sea navy It will also mean that Crimea has Russian territory protecting its northern border.
Then of course comes the rest of Ukraine's coastline. Putin will want that because that ensures Crimea's safety and adds to any resources in the Black Sea. It also effectively land locks Ukraine making any military aid to Ukraine more difficult. Putin and any future Russian leader can then nibble away at Ukraine until it literally belongs to Russia or an agreeable leadership is solidly in power.
Why should Ukraine join the EU? As it stands Ukraine is in terrible economic shape and corrupt as hell. Probably even more corrupt than Russia and that's saying something. If Ukraine stays with Russia Ukraine will always be corrupt. The only way to break the cycle is to break from Russia and join the EU. Ukraine simply cannot resolve its corruption by itself. It needs the aid of the EU to turn its economy around and reduce corruption. Other FSU states that joined the EU managed to greatly reduce corruption and improve their economy, it should be possible for Ukraine to do the same.
Like it or not Russia was and still is the best options Ukraine has.
Why? With all the corruption in Russia and Ukraine any aid package that Russia sends to Ukraine is going to end up being hijacked by Russian and Ukrainian politicians and oligarchs for their own personal benefit.
How much of a Russian aid package do you think will actually end of being used as aid? 50%? Less?
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
I agree it won't be easy. However joining the EU has worked for other FSU states so no reason it shouldn't work for Ukraine. However I'd bet Putin will be using every chance he has to grab any Ukrainian territory he can get.
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
I agree it won't be easy. However joining the EU has worked for other FSU states so no reason it shouldn't work for Ukraine. However I'd bet Putin will be using every chance he has to grab any Ukrainian territory he can get.
My question is would the EU be willing to spend the billions it will take to support Ukraine?
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The wheels on that, turn ohh so slow, Ukraine has not got the patience that many of its neighbours have History has shown us that
Maybe some one could put up a time line of Political events over the past 25 years in Ukraine :coffeeread:
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
Please tell me you do not believe Ukrainians are a bunch of dumb hicks that at the very least do not listen to radio or television or read the papers. This not to mention that politics is a national pastime and many people have relatives or friends in neighboring countries. Most neighboring countries have gone through the process.
The future will tell as to EU or not. I think very few people holding their breath. It is the direction that matters. Anything is better than what was before and Putin has absolutely worn out his welcome. I would even bet that there is a growing Russian hatred now that was never there before.
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
I agree it won't be easy. However joining the EU has worked for other FSU states so no reason it shouldn't work for Ukraine. However I'd bet Putin will be using every chance he has to grab any Ukrainian territory he can get.
My question is would the EU be willing to spend the billions it will take to support Ukraine?
It has in the past for countries like Poland, the Baltics etc. As Sparky points out this is years in the future so presumably there's going to be time to plan for it. Like it or not the world is moving to a system of large trading blocs like the EU and others like the TPP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership).
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30278606
One needs to understand Ukraine is dependent on Russia.
It's doubtful to get an exact number,but if there is 3 million Ukrainians working in Russia.
Should Russia decide to refuse them work and send them back to Ukraine, this would only add to the already troubled economy.
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
Please tell me you do not believe Ukrainians are a bunch of dumb hicks that at the very least do not listen to radio or television or read the papers. This not to mention that politics is a national pastime and many people have relatives or friends in neighboring countries. Most neighboring countries have gone through the process.
The future will tell as to EU or not. I think very few people holding their breath. It is the direction that matters. Anything is better than what was before and Putin has absolutely worn out his welcome. I would even bet that there is a growing Russian hatred now that was never there before.
The neighbouring countries have mainly been at peace with the way they live for the last 20 years, and saw the way forward to a better life within the EU, not that it happened that easy for some of them though.
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30278606
One needs to understand Ukraine is dependent on Russia.
It's doubtful to get an exact number,but if there is 3 million Ukrainians working in Russia.
Should Russia decide to refuse them work and send them back to Ukraine, this would only add to the already troubled economy.
I agree. Russia is going to do everything it can to keep Ukraine dependent on it. To lose Ukraine to the EU will be a great insult to Putin.
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
Not to mention that politics in EU have changed meanwhile.
Back then we had only rich countries and almost 0 bankrupt ones.
EU Citizens are not waiting for another failed state to enter in the EU.
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What most forget is that it will take on average about 8 to 10 years for them to join Europe after being accepted which in itself can take years :coffeeread:
This will tell you what they must achieve before they are let in
http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm
it could 10 years + before they even get a sniff of the Europe they want to join.
Do you think the populas will wait that long ? or even curb there ways and start to behave? history has shown they are not good at waiting!
Not to mention that politics in EU have changed meanwhile.
Back then we had only rich countries and almost 0 bankrupt ones.
EU Citizens are not waiting for another failed state to enter in the EU.
:thumbsup:
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Snip !
I would even bet that there is a growing Russian hatred now that was never there before.
Oh Russian hatred is at pathological levels. Just listen to Yatsenyuk (Ukraine's mentally deranged Prime Minister).
If you were ethnic Russian how do you think that hatred would make you feel?
Would you want to be part of the New (sic) Ukraine??
Or if you were young and able bodied would you join the separatists ???
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Westcoast, you may have forgotten but Ukraine only signed an Association Agreement, which if you read the original document, was a one sided affair with no guarantees of any likelihood of EU membership. The Association Agreement, apart from being a way for EU and US businesses to gain access to Ukrainian assets at very low cost was rather akin to a dog pissing on a lamp post - it was a territory marking exercise.
Worse yet, the EU has now suspended the Association Agreement so that even that shabby deal is now off the table. The chances are that IMF foreclosures will provide that which the Association Agreement will not.
Ukraine was economically dependent upon Russia before the agreement and remains so today. That situation will not change for all sorts of reasons, not the least being the familial connections that still exist between the two countries, notwithstanding the invented hate overlaid upon the somewhat more amicable different foundations.
In the short to medium term Russia is likely to continue with its support of Ukrainian citizens whilst driving up the costs of support of the EU/US new acquisition, an acquisition made under the same terms as retailers apply to careless shoppers 'you broke it - you bought it'.
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Westcoast, you may have forgotten but Ukraine only signed an Association Agreement, which if you read the original document, was a one sided affair with no guarantees of any likelihood of EU membership. The Association Agreement, apart from being a way for EU and US businesses to gain access to Ukrainian assets at very low cost was rather akin to a dog pissing on a lamp post - it was a territory marking exercise.
Worse yet, the EU has now suspended the Association Agreement so that even that shabby deal is now off the table.
The association agreement's entry into force was postponed until Jan. 1, 2016 because of economic concerns raised by Russia. The postponement was not an issue raised by the EU or Ukraine. (http://sputniknews.com/politics/20141231/1016420338.html)
Angela Merkel has raised the idea of a free trade deal between the EU and Russia in exchange for a peace deal in Ukraine. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11365674/Ukraine-crisis-Angela-Merkel-offers-Russia-free-trade-deal-for-peace.html) If Russia has an issue with the flow of European goods over the Ukraine-Russia border into Russia a deal like Merkel has suggested might solve that problem.
A free trade deal with the EU might very well help Russia's economy diversify from the one hit wonder of the energy sector that currently makes up more than 60% of Russia's foreign revenue.
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At the moment, Ukraine seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place.
The United states wants more sanctions, which will do little to stop the fighting.
Military aid on both sides will only increase the death toll.
From the Ukrainian side what's your thoughts on what Ukraine needs to do to have the best possible outcome?
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From the Ukrainian side what's your thoughts on what Ukraine needs to do to have the best possible outcome?
They need a non-corrupt gvmnt (ad so does almost everyone else), but that's from the series of flying pigs i am afraid ...
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Westcoast, you are correct to note that the RF has concerns about the Ukraine/EU Association Agreement however your Googling missed the point that the request for postponement was actually made by Ukraine and not in order to have ongoing discussions with Russia.
Ukraine was simply unable to comply with the terms of the agreement and sought its postponement in the hope that they might be able to do so in the future.
Nice that you chose an irrelevant Sputnik link though, if you keep this up you will soon be getting relevant info and your mates at the daycare centre will be so envious of your new fangled Internet skillz.
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At the moment, Ukraine seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place.
The United states wants more sanctions, which will do little to stop the fighting.
Military aid on both sides will only increase the death toll.
From the Ukrainian side what's your thoughts on what Ukraine needs to do to have the best possible outcome?
Sadly this is not about what Ukraine wants or needs. Ukraine is simply a pawn in a bigger game. One could justifiably suggest that the Novorossians are in a similar position however it seems that the leadership there is aware of that situation and perceive that the best interests of the people of the region are best served by being a part of that process - for sure it is entirely obvious that if the people of the region were to put down their weapons and go home that they'd still be murdered in their beds. The people in the rest of Ukraine are in a less good position though.
Ultimately there will, again, be a unified Ukraine, sans Crimea, and the president will, at some point, be called Zakarchenko.
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At the moment, Ukraine seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place.
The United states wants more sanctions, which will do little to stop the fighting.
Military aid on both sides will only increase the death toll.
From the Ukrainian side what's your thoughts on what Ukraine needs to do to have the best possible outcome?
best is relative, you talking long term or short term?
Short term (20 years)
Repent, beg and grovel for forgiveness , concede Crimea and what ever Russia wants in the east,
and hitch their wagon to Russia like good little boys and girls,and continue as before.
Continue losing vital infrastructure and population,
while the Oligarchs do what Oligarchs do.
Long term would take more courage and resources than the west cares to give them ,or the Ukrainian public realistically has.(any government is only in power as long as the general public tolerates it) They have a country with good natural resources and the main thing holding it back has been internal corruption.Sure corruption exists everywhere, but the levels can be very different and more detrimental.
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At the moment, Ukraine seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place.
The United states wants more sanctions, which will do little to stop the fighting.
Military aid on both sides will only increase the death toll.
From the Ukrainian side what's your thoughts on what Ukraine needs to do to have the best possible outcome?
The best possible outcome would be for Ukraine to behave like a state again and not some banana country.
- Withdraw the army, put omon/police on lawbreakers. Use the Army only to have a safe-haven closeby for police officers.
- Recruit police from other forces at first, but use local officers as soon as possible.
- Start collecting taxes and other govt'l structures.
- Enable critical infrastructure
Slowly and surely, people might just return to normal.
- When all is relatively normal again, hold elections with ALL oblasts there, except Crimea which wont return.
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Ultimately there will, again, be a unified Ukraine, sans Crimea, and the president will, at some point, be called Zakarchenko.
Can you expand on that?
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I hear the words "Ukraine wants" and "Ukrainians want" quite a bit from both sides. I find it funny because most Ukrainians have no say in the outcome and know it. Power in that country is controlled by a corrupt few, most notably the oligarchs.
When political power changes hands it only goes from one corrupt official to another.
So let's really couch all of this discussion in what the elite want. American, European, Russian and Oligarchy Elite.
Saying what average Ukrainian citizens really want is rather pointless as I think most of them want to be left alone and go back to a normal life (which was already hard enough before this war came around.)
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Ultimately there will, again, be a unified Ukraine, sans Crimea, and the president will, at some point, be called Zakarchenko.
Can you expand on that?
The Russian government has made it clear time and time again that they see the future of Ukraine as being an independent country in which the Donbass is an integral part. There's no other solution that is either practicable or that meets Russian and Ukrainian goals. A divided country would leave Ukraine under pressure to join NATO and without the economic means to be a viable member of the international economy. Donbass would have to be a part of the Russian Federation because although it is possibly the most valuable piece of real estate in the country it is not, by itself viable and that lack of viability would remove any economic benefit.
For Ukraine to survive the current kleptocracy needs to be extirpated or at the least put in their place as happened in Russia and the whole Nazi/insane independence and intolerance has to be put away - forever.
There's nobody in the current power structure or anywhere close to it who has the requisites to do this and who has any chance of being a unifying force EXCEPT somebody like Zakarchenko. He is enough of an outsider and with, it seems, core values that enable him to do house cleaning with the support of the populace.
My surmise is that at the head of a Ukrainian column that cleans out Kiev he would gain the popular support to become either president (with powers similar to those that Yanukovych, quite rightly, saw as necessary) or as Prime Minister to a Ukrainian president with the same powers as Poroshenko has at this time.
Zakarchenko appears to be an intelligent and personable man with a defined set of core beliefs. He is absolutely not a softie and he is, I believe, a Ukrainian - a Ukrainian who like many of his colleagues was repulsed by the previous kleptocracy and the foreign inspired coup that sought to remove him and his peers from the Ukraine.
Can such a thing happen? If the Ukrainian army decides it should be then it would be. It is not for nothing that the Novorossians have been very accommodating with their prisoners of war. Every Ukrainian senior military officer of around my age grew up in, served in and was trained in the Soviet armed forces, these guys are brothers to their colleagues in Russia and Novorossia and many are real patriots, not like the insane corrupt nazi boys with whom they are forced to work right now.
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Westcoast, you are correct to note that the RF has concerns about the Ukraine/EU Association Agreement however your Googling missed the point that the request for postponement was actually made by Ukraine and not in order to have ongoing discussions with Russia.
Ukraine was simply unable to comply with the terms of the agreement and sought its postponement in the hope that they might be able to do so in the future.
Don't know where you're getting your info, maybe RT or some anonymous Russian blogger is saying that but it's not the way it's being reported in most media. For example, Aljazeera is reporting:
The two sides decided to bow to Russian pressure and delay applying the free-trade rules that pulled Ukraine out of a rival union being built by the Kremlin. Therefore, the key element of the agreement has been postponed until 2016.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/09/ukraine-sign-key-eu-association-deal-20149169594305138.html
In no way can Aljazeera be considered a tool of western propaganda.
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
Why do you think many of the FSU countries that were once part of the USSR and its sphere of influence joined NATO and the EU? Why haven't any of these countries tried to join Putin's new trade alliance? It can't be because of the US is forcing them to stay in NATO and the EU.
After all Manny and others have said the US has lost its power and influence over the years so it would seem logical that some of these countries would want to leave NATO and the EU and join Russia, yet that isn't happening. In fact just the opposite. Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
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Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
Untrue. Western propaganda.
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Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
Untrue. Western propaganda.
And yet as I've pointed out numerous times none of the FSU countries that joined NATO and the EU want to leave and join Putin's new trade alliance. I wonder why?
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
It is disappointing more of your countryfolk haven't got such a sensible view.
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Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
Untrue. Western propaganda.
And yet as I've pointed out numerous times none of the FSU countries that joined NATO and the EU want to leave and join Putin's new trade alliance. I wonder why?
Maybe they didn't want regime change as happened in Ukraine when they tried to lean towards Russia. Go ahead Westy, spin that. (:)
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
Why do you think many of the FSU countries that were once part of the USSR and its sphere of influence joined NATO and the EU? Why haven't any of these countries tried to join Putin's new trade alliance? It can't be because of the US is forcing them to stay in NATO and the EU.
After all Manny and others have said the US has lost its power and influence over the years so it would seem logical that some of these countries would want to leave NATO and the EU and join Russia, yet that isn't happening. In fact just the opposite. Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
WestCoast,
The only way you will understand,is if you get out of your comfy armchair and spend a year living in the fsu.
The cold war ended long ago, the western media portrays a Russia much different than the Russia I know.
Then you won't need to Google useless information from sources that most likely couldn't find the former Soviet countries on a map.
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http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20984.msg380435#msg380435
They weren't smart.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/26/us-ukraine-crisis-military-idUSKBN0KZ0L920150126
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From the Ukrainian side what's your thoughts on what Ukraine needs to do to have the best possible outcome?
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21980.msg386227#msg386227
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
It is disappointing more of your countryfolk haven't got such a sensible view.
Telling the US to mind it's own business in the world is like telling Russia to mind it's own business in Eastern Europe. See what happens when you tell the 800lb gorilla in the room to bugger off.
Complain all you want but Putin knows the rules of "might makes right" and takes just as much advantage of it as the US does.
Now try telling me that isn't true. :)
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Wife spoke to her family and several friends today. One of her friends from a village just north of Odessa has deserted and returned home. He says they had not eaten in three days and were outgunned by Russian soldiers.
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Wife spoke to her family and several friends today. One of her friends from a village just north of Odessa has deserted and returned home. He says they had no eaten in three days and were outgunned by Russian soldiers.
He was lying. We have been assured by [derogatory term removed] that Russian troops are not fighting in Ukraine. I for one will not believe these lies until they are confirmed by RT.com or the official website of the President of the Russian Federation, the only two sources of truth in the region.
But, of course, if those sources change up and confirm that Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine then that is because Ukraine deserves to be invaded/annexed. The most important things to keep in mind are that, no matter what happens, Ukraine and the US are to blame and Russia, under its Great Leader, is flawless.
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
Why do you think many of the FSU countries that were once part of the USSR and its sphere of influence joined NATO and the EU? Why haven't any of these countries tried to join Putin's new trade alliance? It can't be because of the US is forcing them to stay in NATO and the EU.
After all Manny and others have said the US has lost its power and influence over the years so it would seem logical that some of these countries would want to leave NATO and the EU and join Russia, yet that isn't happening. In fact just the opposite. Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
WestCoast,
The only way you will understand,is if you get out of your comfy armchair and spend a year living in the fsu.
The cold war ended long ago, the western media portrays a Russia much different than the Russia I know.
Then you won't need to Google useless information from sources that most likely couldn't find the former Soviet countries on a map.
Tom Cat I'm not basing my opinion of the Russian government on my own knowledge of Russia. The FSU countries and countries under the USSR's sphere of influence that are now in NATO and the EU represent over 100 million people. I'm sure the people of Poland or Hungary and other FSU countries are quite capable of finding Russia on a map.
If these countries don't trust Russia and don't want to join the Russian trade alliance they must have good reasons. They would know and understand Russia far better than any westerner who has some knowledge of Russia.
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Putins game of Chess has you lot with your knickers in a right mess :chuckle:
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
Why do you think many of the FSU countries that were once part of the USSR and its sphere of influence joined NATO and the EU? Why haven't any of these countries tried to join Putin's new trade alliance? It can't be because of the US is forcing them to stay in NATO and the EU.
After all Manny and others have said the US has lost its power and influence over the years so it would seem logical that some of these countries would want to leave NATO and the EU and join Russia, yet that isn't happening. In fact just the opposite. Countries like Poland and Estonia seem genuinely fearful of Russian aggression and possible invasion.
WestCoast,
The only way you will understand,is if you get out of your comfy armchair and spend a year living in the fsu.
The cold war ended long ago, the western media portrays a Russia much different than the Russia I know.
Then you won't need to Google useless information from sources that most likely couldn't find the former Soviet countries on a map.
Tom Cat I'm not basing my opinion of the Russian government on my own knowledge of Russia. The FSU countries and countries under the USSR's sphere of influence that are now in NATO and the EU represent over 100 million people. I'm sure the people of Poland or Hungary and other FSU countries are quite capable of finding Russia on a map.
If these countries don't trust Russia and don't want to join the Russian trade alliance they must have good reasons. They would know and understand Russia far better than any westerner who has some knowledge of Russia.
WestCoast,
Russians on a whole are very kind and welcoming people.
Ask anyone here lucky enough to have a Russian wife.
I could say the same about Ukraine.
Don't be afraid to go see for yourself, then you will see how silly your fears are.
It's much better than Google. :)
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I find it absolutely fascinating that some on here want to paint all Americans with the same brush they paint the leaders in Washington D.C. To paraphrase Tom Cat. Most Americans are very kind and welcoming people. :)
I think the Ukrainians should be allowed to choose their own destiny. But now that Russia has removed their nuclear stinger, they are ripe for the taking by Putin and his thugs. Oh no, I hope I have not offend the [derogatory term removed]-sphere (thanks for the new word Larry).
Americans are not the problem here. I pray to God that a shooting war does not break out between Nato and Russia. This serves no one but the Military Industrial Complex on both sides.
HDL
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Most Americans are very kind and welcoming people. :)
True. :)
As per "Russians on a whole are very kind and welcoming people"... The word for kindness, любезность, is archaic in Russian, welcoming... Well, yes, if you are invited to their home, they are the most welcoming, but to arrive to that point takes a lot. Dunno, i love Russians and respect them for myriads of reasons, but "kind and welcoming" are probably among the last attributes i'd use to describe them (of course, we are all generalizing here.)
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Hounddogdaddylee, you elected your masters. If your masters send you to war you will go. It does not matter if at home you are a bunch of cuddly teddy bears if, when you are told to do so, you follow the orders of your elected masters.
There is a time when state and people might justifiably be seen as seperate but when the people do the bidding of their state then they become part of the state and a part of the perception that we have of that state.
You want different then show us. Stop enabling the depredations of your elected masters.
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Hounddogdaddylee, you elected your masters. If your masters send you to war you will go. It does not matter if at home you are a bunch of cuddly teddy bears if, when you are told to do so, you follow the orders of your elected masters.
There is a time when state and people might justifiably be seen as seperate but when the people do the bidding of their state then they become part of the state and a part of the perception that we have of that state.
You want different then show us. Stop enabling the depredations of your elected masters.
This from a man who would only stand up and fight for the last pork chop and
keeps his car running when this began, 2000km away. (:)
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Hounddogdaddylee, you elected your masters. If your masters send you to war you will go. It does not matter if at home you are a bunch of cuddly teddy bears if, when you are told to do so, you follow the orders of your elected masters.
There is a time when state and people might justifiably be seen as seperate but when the people do the bidding of their state then they become part of the state and a part of the perception that we have of that state.
You want different then show us. Stop enabling the depredations of your elected masters.
I did not vote for any of the "elected masters" and I strongly believe in term limits Would I go to war if ordered? Yes as I am a patriot, like my father and grandfathers before him. Would you not fight for the UK if asked? As you seem to be a liberal bloke, let me fill you in on American politics. The democratic party is favored by the welfare state. Why do you think they want to allow the illegals from Mexico and South America to stay and get status? It is a way to pay for votes. Not what our founding fathers had in mind, but it is what it is. I am sure the Brits in Normandy were very appreciative having Yanks along side in 1944.
I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin, but being Children of the USSR they possibly fear voicing it.
Shrugs,
HDL
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I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin,
You might want to check his popularity ratings in Russia. Over 80% last time I looked. It is well documented in the western media too.
Many Americans make the mistake of thinking the rest of the world sees the world like they do.
The video on this topic (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=22328.0) might show you the other side.
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I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin,
You might want to check his popularity ratings in Russia. Over 80% last time I looked. It is well documented in the western media too.
Many Americans make the mistake of thinking the rest of the world sees the world like they do.
I agree, but ratings are dropping, wasn't well over 90 when started?
Russians, feel it is them against the world, so regardless, they will stick together and
Stand behind putin. Although I am not sure if you could trust a poll done by Russian Gov :chuckle:
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I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin,
You might want to check his popularity ratings in Russia. Over 80% last time I looked. It is well documented in the western media too.
Many Americans make the mistake of thinking the rest of the world sees the world like they do.
The video on this topic (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=22328.0) might show you the other side.
I trust polls in Russia as much as trust them here. As I stated to Andrew, if I am a 50 year old Russian, who was raised under the Soviet Union, would I be fully honest if asked if I approve of Putin? Maybe I am just jealous of the masculine Vladimir? If you are ok with Russia forcing its will on Ukraine then you would be fine with the US doing the same to Canada? I wouldn't. While the US Global policy is flawed, want to annex our neighboring countries. Hell, did we try to annex Iraq? I must have missed that bit of information. The people in charge of most countries are psychopaths. It is how they rise to the top in todays world. Doesn't mean I have to agree, and it doesn't mean I treat their citizens as bad.
If America is so evil, please feel free to convince your masters to withdraw from NATO and stop taking US aid. We can go back to a pre-WWII isolationist USA. I will just sit and watch the fun :popcorn:
HDL
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I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin, but being Children of the USSR they possibly fear voicing it.
Yes, complaints about the government are common and people are more willing to tell me their thoughts when I'm alone with them. People feel fairly helpless when it comes to changing the government, the pessimism runs deep.
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I did not vote for any of the "elected masters" and I strongly believe in term limits Would I go to war if ordered? Yes as I am a patriot, like my father and grandfathers before him. Would you not fight for the UK if asked? As you seem to be a liberal bloke, let me fill you in on American politics. The democratic party is favored by the welfare state. Why do you think they want to allow the illegals from Mexico and South America to stay and get status? It is a way to pay for votes. Not what our founding fathers had in mind, but it is what it is. I am sure the Brits in Normandy were very appreciative having Yanks along side in 1944.
I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin, but being Children of the USSR they possibly fear voicing it.
You know what they say about opinions: those are like a**holes, everybody got one :)
You could be sure "deep down" anything you fancy, but the fact is that majority of Americans are happy with Obama and majority of Russians are happy with Putin, otherwise neither of the two would be (re)elected. :)
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If you are ok with Russia forcing its will on Ukraine
Most Russians do not see it like that. They see the US being as relevant in Ukraine as they would be if you had a skirmish in Mexico and Vova came over the hill riding a bear to protect the Mexicans. The first thing you would quite rightly say is "What the hell has it to do with Russia?"
America's involvement in Ukraine has already caused a civil war. The aim of all this is regime change in Russia, break up of Russia and control of Russia's oil. They are trying to do it without all out war.
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Opposition in Russia isn't tolerated and most Russians I know believe the outcome of elections has been determined before a single vote has been cast. If Russia was a true democracy Putin would have some serious competition. As it is, most Russians accept what they have because they know change doesn't come easy.
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I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin, but being Children of the USSR they possibly fear voicing it.
Yes, complaints about the government are common and people are more willing to tell me their thoughts when I'm alone with them. People feel fairly helpless when it comes to changing the government, the pessimism runs deep.
And those people are what? The best minds Russia has? The richest ones? The most patriotic? Or- the majority which due to your own status you've never met? Whom is it that you meet?
Besides, where is it that people are happy with the gvmnt? Happy as in ultimately fulfilled? Gvmnts are here to keep the technical side of it all from falling apart (IMHO), not to hold your hand and make sure you are happy and lulled in... i think that is.
Still, as much as everyone rants about their respective gvmnt, never in history the world was better than it is at this moment - never ever so many people had right to vote, access to education, health system, never before human rights were on this level.
Don't forget that in Russia slavery was abolished as late as 1861 (when serf status was revoked), you think it's not much they achieved in some 150y and that their gvmnt sucks? I don't think so :)
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If you are ok with Russia forcing its will on Ukraine
Most Russians do not see it like that. They see the US being as relevant in Ukraine as they would be if you had a skirmish in Mexico and Vova came over the hill riding a bear to protect the Mexicans. The first thing you would quite rightly say is "What the hell has it to do with Russia?"
America's involvement in Ukraine has already caused a civil war. The aim of all this is regime change in Russia, break up of Russia and control of Russia's oil. They are trying to do it without all out war.
Manny, sometimes i loose the desire to discuss because when we resort to non-arguments such as: "deep down i believe" and couple of Russians to whom i teach English say/think/ believe ... It's kinda futile. (:)
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If you are ok with Russia forcing its will on Ukraine
Most Russians do not see it like that. They see the US being as relevant in Ukraine as they would be if you had a skirmish in Mexico and Vova came over the hill riding a bear to protect the Mexicans. The first thing you would quite rightly say is "What the hell has it to do with Russia?"
America's involvement in Ukraine has already caused a civil war. The aim of all this is regime change in Russia, break up of Russia and control of Russia's oil. They are trying to do it without all out war.
I don't see photos or videos of M1-Abrams tanks flying either US or Ukraine colors in Donbass. But I am happy the dissidents can go to the farm store and purchase those GRAD rockets. :dh:
Yes, Manny, America bad, Russia good. We have to agree to disagree.
HDL
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I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin, but being Children of the USSR they possibly fear voicing it.
Yes, complaints about the government are common and people are more willing to tell me their thoughts when I'm alone with them. People feel fairly helpless when it comes to changing the government, the pessimism runs deep.
And those people are what? The best minds Russia has? The richest ones? The most patriotic? Or- the majority which due to your own status you've never met? Whom is it that you meet?
Besides, where is it that people are happy with the gvmnt? Happy as in ultimately fulfilled? Gvmnts are here to keep the technical side of it all from falling apart (IMHO), not to hold your hand and make sure you are happy and lulled in... i think that is.
Still, as much as everyone rants about their respective gvmnt, never in history the world was better than it is at this moment - never ever so many people had right to vote, access to education, health system, never before human rights were on this level.
Don't forget that in Russia slavery was abolished as late as 1861 (when serf status was revoked), you think it's not much they achieved in some 150y and that their gvmnt sucks? I don't think so :)
Oh, you're right. I only live here and interact with these people everyday. Yes, they are just common folk, the ones who don't matter. (:) (:)
Fact is, the ruble is worthless, prices are going up, people can't take the holidays they want and the only thing Putin can do is blame America so that he doesn't actually have to take any responsibility for the shit economy. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better and the lowly, unimportant Russians I know aren't happy. Sorry if this bursts the little fantasy bubble some of you live in.
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I did not vote for any of the "elected masters" and I strongly believe in term limits Would I go to war if ordered? Yes as I am a patriot, like my father and grandfathers before him. Would you not fight for the UK if asked? As you seem to be a liberal bloke, let me fill you in on American politics. The democratic party is favored by the welfare state. Why do you think they want to allow the illegals from Mexico and South America to stay and get status? It is a way to pay for votes. Not what our founding fathers had in mind, but it is what it is. I am sure the Brits in Normandy were very appreciative having Yanks along side in 1944.
I am sure deep down most Russians are not happy with Putin, but being Children of the USSR they possibly fear voicing it.
You know what they say about opinions: those are like a**holes, everybody got one :)
You could be sure "deep down" anything you fancy, but the fact is that majority of Americans are happy with Obama and majority of Russians are happy with Putin, otherwise neither of the two would be (re)elected. :)
No Obama's poll numbers are very low. Most Americans are unhappy with him. If the Republicans could pull their heads out of their a*sses he would never have been elected. And now we have the prospect of an election with another Bush v. another Clinton. Two bad choices is the same as not choice at all. Add to that, that your "average" American is not politically engaged beyond what troth they can feed from, you have a broken process. We have career politicians that were never considered at the original Continental Congresses. I wish I had the power to depose my masters that Andrew feels I have, but I and like minded Americans cannot. There is a reason TV shows like Jerry Springer, Survivor and The Bachelor/ette are popular. There are many idiots in this country who cannot be bothered to think.
That this once great country is now filled with people who refuse to be informed is sad indeed. Many, who believe like I do, have simply given up. I am sure there are many similar folks in Russia who feel that their voice can never been heard so they trudge on.
HDL
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If you are ok with Russia forcing its will on Ukraine
Most Russians do not see it like that. They see the US being as relevant in Ukraine as they would be if you had a skirmish in Mexico and Vova came over the hill riding a bear to protect the Mexicans. The first thing you would quite rightly say is "What the hell has it to do with Russia?"
America's involvement in Ukraine has already caused a civil war. The aim of all this is regime change in Russia, break up of Russia and control of Russia's oil. They are trying to do it without all out war.
Manny, sometimes i loose the desire to discuss because when we resort to non-arguments such as: "deep down i believe" and couple of Russians to whom i teach English say/think/ believe ... It's kinda futile. (:)
Are you doing your little "superior dance" right now volshe? So sorry you have to tolerate all the stupid people.
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Oh, you're right. I only live here and interact with these people everyday. Yes, they are just common folk, the ones who don't matter. (:) (:)
Mhr, sorry, i really didn't have that in mind, what i meant is that (i think & of course could be wrong) that neither you, nor i while i lived there meet the common people, the majority (and i don't think we get to meet the most influential ones - in terms of intellect, money or whatsoever.)
"Common" Russian mostly doesn't interact with foreigners at all, see what i mean? (And the really influential ones - those who mold public opinion or make executive decisions, interact with their Western counterparts, ie. representatives of Western gvmnts.)
Fact is, the ruble is worthless, prices are going up, people can't take the holidays they want and they ARE NOT HAPPY. Sorry if this bursts the little fantasy bubble some of you live in.
This is my experience, based on Muscovite population, most of them in Academia: most support Putin, some are strongly against. Those who do not support him are against his politics for very different reasons than you list. An intelligent person knows the difference between personal comfort zone and long-term national interest... Those who'd sell the latter for a vacation in Thailand imho are not common people, but (imho) morons with no brains and no consciousness.
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If you are ok with Russia forcing its will on Ukraine
Most Russians do not see it like that. They see the US being as relevant in Ukraine as they would be if you had a skirmish in Mexico and Vova came over the hill riding a bear to protect the Mexicans. The first thing you would quite rightly say is "What the hell has it to do with Russia?"
America's involvement in Ukraine has already caused a civil war. The aim of all this is regime change in Russia, break up of Russia and control of Russia's oil. They are trying to do it without all out war.
Manny, sometimes i loose the desire to discuss because when we resort to non-arguments such as: "deep down i believe" and couple of Russians to whom i teach English say/think/ believe ... It's kinda futile. (:)
Are you doing your little "superior dance" right now volshe? So sorry you have to tolerate all the stupid people.
I am sorry you have to tolerate me ( i am being serious) and i do not think i am more intelligent than anyone else here. More opinionated , that yes ;D
What i do think though is that " i think" is indicative of one person's subjective opinion, not of the state of facts (and same of couple of people's opinion... Unless those couple of people are influential enough so that their opinion constitutes a paradigm which becomes dominant in the society ;))
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hounddaddylee, thanks for making my point so well.
In Ukraine right now whole villages are refusing to fight for their elected masters. Thousands of men are leaving Ukraine for foreign parts, including Russia.
Me, I hope that I'd be strong enough to refuse to fight for something that I did not believe in - I already know that I will fight for that in which I DO beleive. You on the other hand have told us that you'd do as you were told.
Point clearly made. You are a tool of your masters. Deal with it.
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Most Americans are very kind and welcoming people. :)
True. :)
As per "Russians on a whole are very kind and welcoming people"... The word for kindness, любезность, is archaic in Russian, welcoming... Well, yes, if you are invited to their home, they are the most welcoming, but to arrive to that point takes a lot. Dunno, i love Russians and respect them for myriads of reasons, but "kind and welcoming" are probably among the last attributes i'd use to describe them (of course, we are all generalizing here.)
Любезность is better translated as niceness, a quality of having good manners and agreeable pleasant nature. Kindness is best translated as доброта, a quality of sincere concern for other people often going together with selflessness. Russians make a very clear distinction between the two concepts, though they can, of course, partly overlap. Любезность isn't something Russian people famous for, as they do not put too much value to it, though it is valued more among educated people on average. Being a Slavic person (am I correct here?) you probably can relate :). My two cents. :8)
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Most Americans are very kind and welcoming people. :)
True. :)
As per "Russians on a whole are very kind and welcoming people"... The word for kindness, любезность, is archaic in Russian, welcoming... Well, yes, if you are invited to their home, they are the most welcoming, but to arrive to that point takes a lot. Dunno, i love Russians and respect them for myriads of reasons, but "kind and welcoming" are probably among the last attributes i'd use to describe them (of course, we are all generalizing here.)
Любезность is better translated as niceness, a quality of having good manners and agreeable pleasant nature. Kindness is best translated as доброта, a quality of sincere concern for other people often going together with selflessness. Russians make a very clear distinction between the two concepts, though they can, of course, partly overlap. Любезность isn't something Russian people famous for, as they do not put too much value to it, though it is valued more among educated people on average. Being a Slavic person (am I correct here?) you probably can relate :). My two cents. :8)
Same with giving to charity, certainly Nadia can't see the point!
Give money? For nothing?..
.
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Same with giving to charity, certainly Nadia can't see the point!
Give money? For nothing?..
.
Who's Nadia? I know only one Nadia and you are dead wrong, she loves giving to charity. She's born Canadian, although she says that she is Ukrainian. Are we talking about the same Nadia?
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Любезность is better translated as niceness, a quality of having good manners and agreeable pleasant nature. Kindness is best translated as доброта, a quality of sincere concern for other people often going together with selflessness. Russians make a very clear distinction between the two concepts, though they can, of course, partly overlap. Любезность isn't something Russian people famous for, as they do not put too much value to it, though it is valued more among educated people on average. Being a Slavic person (am I correct here?) you probably can relate :). My two cents. :8)
I am a Semitic person from Balkans, i get the concept of любезность, we inherited it from Venetians and Ottomans ... i also don't value it too much. I am in awe of Максим Кронгауз (Maxim Krongauz?) and the concepts he elaborates in his "Russian on the edge of nervous breakdown", among else:
http://bonread.ru/maksim-krongauz-maksim-krongauz-russkiy-yazik-na-grani-nervnogo-sriva.html?page=27
Речевой этикет у каждого народа свой. Но интересно, что мы не только по-разному говорим, но и по-разному молчим. Точнее, когда у одних народов принято говорить, у других – принято молчать.
Сравнивать людей русской культуры с другими народами чрезвычайно интересно, но трудно; прежде всего потому, что русский речевой этикет за последние 20 лет изменился так сильно, что, по существу, можно говорить о двух разных речевых этикетах: старом и новом. И носители нового этикета – молодые люди – намного ближе к усредненной западной культуре общения. Поэтому для чистоты сравнения возьмем городского человека 80-х годов.
О русских (тогда еще – о советских) сложился известный культурный миф, что они в целом не слишком дружелюбны. Мало улыбаются и – что немаловажно – редко здороваются. Вот с тем, что русские редко здороваются (или, точнее, здоровались), и стоит разобраться...
...в отличие от европейского этикета, русский не требовал приветствия от незнакомых людей в ряде ситуаций, а именно – при отсутствии дальнейшей коммуникации, при краткой формальной коммуникации, в том числе между служащим и клиентом. В этом смысле можно говорить о меньшей открытости русских – либо вовсе не вступавших в коммуникацию (обмен приветствиями без продолжения коммуникации, тем не менее, сам уже является коммуникацией), либо строго ограничивавшихся краткой формальной коммуникацией. Более того, приветствие в таких случаях воспринималось носителем русского этикета как своего рода экспансия или, точнее, прелюдия к не всегда желательному разговору (например, в лифте).
В современной науке вежливость рассматривается как снятие или смягчение возможной или реальной агрессии. Таким образом, если оценивать в целом стратегии вежливого поведения в рассматриваемых ситуациях, то европейскую можно было бы обозначить как «мы (ты и я) – свои, и поэтому я не представляю для тебя опасности», а русскую – как «ты для меня не существуешь, и поэтому я не представляю для тебя опасности».
Being kind is rather приятный (в общении), both lyubeznosty and priyatnosty are indicative of external attitudes, whereas доброта is internal quality (which can, but doesn't have to manifest externally as lyubeznosty and priyatnosty ) of one's character, ie. goodness.*
p.s. * i forgot to add IMHO, these are my thoughts, not some premise ;) i enjoyed your post btw, thank you for sharing what you think, Fashionista.
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Same with giving to charity, certainly Nadia can't see the point!
Give money? For nothing?..
.
Who's Nadia?
Nadia is a Russian British lady who's Ste's partner for over a decade.
Ste, except for десяток, 1/10th one gives for religious/ spiritual reasons, in Eastern Europe we have quite a negative experience with "giving" which was mostly by force (simply taken from salary) and not always - or hardly ever - to the causes we'd choose voluntarily, hence the attitude :)
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Being kind is rather приятный (в общении), both lyubeznosty and priyatnosty are indicative of external attitudes, whereas доброта is internal quality (which can, but doesn't have to manifest externally) of one's character, ie. goodness.
Perhaps I should take more lessons in English then :)
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Nadia is a Russian British lady who's Ste's partner for over a decade.
I see. Though I have no idea what her personal habits have to do with meaning of Russian words.
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Being kind is rather приятный (в общении), both lyubeznosty and priyatnosty are indicative of external attitudes, whereas доброта is internal quality (which can, but doesn't have to manifest externally) of one's character, ie. goodness.
Perhaps I should take more lessons in English then :)
Ooops, i added a note to my above post, NO, linguistically all would do, what i elaborated on is more of a philosophical take.
Does доброта have to manifest as любезность? If you ask a person from the West, they probably would say YES , whereas most of the people in Eastern Europe would say NO (i think).
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Nadia is a Russian British lady who's Ste's partner for over a decade.
I see. Though I have no idea what her personal habits have to do with meaning of Russian words.
We are having a free flowing chat, everyone adds what they feel like/ think is relevant... I hope you'll hang out with us more often, i believe it'll start making sense with time (at least to me it did) :)
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I hope you'll hang out with us more often, i believe it'll start making sense with time (at least to me it did) :)
Thanks Volshe, I enjoy reading your posts too :). But there's been too many political subjects here lately, not something I can be an active part of.
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I hope you'll hang out with us more often, i believe it'll start making sense with time (at least to me it did) :)
Thanks Volshe, I enjoy reading your posts too :). But there's been too many political subjects here lately, not something I can be an active part of.
I understand :( I also couldn't take a part in discussions on ex Yu at the time, it's only now, some 15y later that i can think calmly of what happened and sort of reason *sigh*
I love your username btw, and if/when you'd start a topic on fashion, i promise to jump in with all my passion and verbosity ;D
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I love your username btw, and if/when you'd start a topic on fashion, i promise to jump in with all my passion and verbosity ;D
I doubt that topic would find resonance in the country of t-shirts and white running shoes :). That nickname is more of a nod towards my time of writing for fashion magazines. It was more of an experimental business project on my part, than anything else. Not that I currently adhere to or religiously interested in disposable fashion. Consider the nick self-ironic. :)
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hounddaddylee, thanks for making my point so well.
In Ukraine right now whole villages are refusing to fight for their elected masters. Thousands of men are leaving Ukraine for foreign parts, including Russia.
Me, I hope that I'd be strong enough to refuse to fight for something that I did not believe in - I already know that I will fight for that in which I DO beleive. You on the other hand have told us that you'd do as you were told.
Point clearly made. You are a tool of your masters. Deal with it.
So you completely misread what I was saying...
For a legal declared war I would go fight. If the US Army was shelling Mexican villages I would refuse. That is an apples to apples comparison. And certainly if Canada or Mexico was invading the US I would fight them. Stop being dense.
HDL
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I love your username btw, and if/when you'd start a topic on fashion, i promise to jump in with all my passion and verbosity ;D
I doubt that topic would find resonance in the country of t-shirts and white running shoes :). That nickname is more of a nod towards my time of writing for fashion magazines. It was more of an experimental business project on my part, than anything else. Not that I currently adhere to or religiously interested in disposable fashion. Consider the nick self-ironic. :)
Too bad a fashionista topic with threads by sexy Russian women advising hapless western men on the proper types of Yoga pants, Jeggings, Tops and Lingerie in-fashion to gain favor with their FSUW ladies might be a huge success with a devoted following among the men any way... :smokin:
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hounddaddylee, thanks for making my point so well.
In Ukraine right now whole villages are refusing to fight for their elected masters. Thousands of men are leaving Ukraine for foreign parts, including Russia.
Me, I hope that I'd be strong enough to refuse to fight for something that I did not believe in - I already know that I will fight for that in which I DO beleive. You on the other hand have told us that you'd do as you were told.
Point clearly made. You are a tool of your masters. Deal with it.
So you completely misread what I was saying...
For a legal declared war I would go fight. If the US Army was shelling Mexican villages I would refuse. That is an apples to apples comparison. And certainly if Canada or Mexico was invading the US I would fight them. Stop being dense.
HDL
Considering that illegal and horrific drugs of all kinds are trafficked via a lot of these Mexican border "villages" with distribution routes and sales to naive and gullible dumb american kids in more than 300 USA cities controlled by these increasingly evil Mexican drugs cartels that are now credited with over 130,000 murders and missing persons across Mexico - I for one would have no problem turning these *snip*s bases of operation into a nuclear waste land. We have a large number of undocumented Mexicans here in New Hampshire - we border Canada - and they are not all up here taking $10-$15/hour landscaping, construction labor and painter jobs. They are dealing phooking drugs.
We have a full on narco war being waged against the USA with opiates, black tar heroin, crystal meth, pcp, lsd, steroids, all sorts of incredibly addictive and destructive illegal drugs as well as coke, hashish and pot being dumped across the entire USA and the Obama administration seems to obstruct anyone (Border States) that want to fight these cartels - Obama - WTF - this is unforgivable and anyone who does not agree is an enemy (foreign or domestic) of the United States of America. The media never reports this - too busy crusading for an LGBTQSXYZ friendly America - unconscionable really.
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My thoughts are the EU. needs to grow a pair, and tell the Idiots in Washington D.C. to mind their own :censored: business.
If the United states would have spent as much time and money building a better relationship with Russia, there would not be a need for NATO in Ukraine.
Again ignoring Millions sent to both Russia and Ukraine during the late 90's and early 2000's seems convenient for you?
As long as the U.S. is allowed to keep interfering, things will continue to deteriorate.
It is disappointing more of your countryfolk haven't got such a sensible view.
Whoa Manny,
and most Britons , share yours?
Perhaps, but it doesn't really look that way.
The EU combined has one of the largest active military personnel, surpassing the evil US.
That's a lot of men on the ground to budget for..so lets have a simple answer?
Why would they individually and collectively do so?
I'm certain it's from fear of a US invasion,or only to gain trade favor.. (:)
TomCat-
If Russia would have spent time in building a better relationship with a truly independent Ukraine , instead of exploiting it as cheaply and conveniently as possible, while generally treating it as a red headed step child that should not dare get out of line, there would not be a need for any of this?
Do you really feel the speculated western propaganda machine , black helicopters, covert political maneuverings could have so easily turned a nation with such close cultural ,ethnic, political, and economic ties?
That would be a daunting task!
Through the Budapest agreement, Ukraine agreed to give up Nukes.The conditions laid out between Ukraine, the US, UK and Russia, are clear.
This was important in a newly formed independent country, with a very large portion of the worlds nuclear weapons. That's been basically shrugged off here as insignificant seems bizarre considering NPT is considered fairly important.
All the hoopla that the US meddled in politics there doesn't change the fact Russia has always meddled in politics there, and the agreement was about respecting the boundaries of a sovereign territory, not the possible political leanings of an independent Ukraine
at that time ,or into the future.
Russia got her Nukes back..
So who isn't abiding by terms of that agreement?
The UK? The USA? Russia?
and all we get is *because the US meddled* excuses why it's ok to take Crimea and have tanks in Donbass.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/01/014e4e37646550076a8ef0fe8eff16842cbca240dd857b0e6f75f5798c2facd1.jpg)
The Russian population there was in no danger of oppression, that's a completely ridiculous stance and everyone knows it.
Crimea was valuable to Russia ,and a de-stabilized Ukraine was the perfect reason to take it, it's really that simple.Worked out quite well for them.
So they either got lucky the US meddled , or they meddled themselves, or a bit of both. I'll vote for the latter,
but I'll also not pretend the average ethnic Russian in Donbass , disagreeing with the political leanings of his country, and supporting the Old political machine, suddenly has tanks in his garage and the funds and ability to operate them all the way to Donetsk airport?
That HUGE leap between a dissident or faction of the population protesting, and them then having equipment ,operating capital, and skills to use them isn't nearly as innocent as many posters are attempting to portray.
So the US meddled and funded a ground roots uprising? but I did not see tanks at Maidan, did you?
Actually I don't know any disgruntled citizens in any country that own modern tanks ? Do you?
Nor do they have the ability to operate it, the funding, or training ,even if it's dropped off at their front step.
That is simply NOT the average disgruntled citizen
living anywhere in any Oblast, much less a conveniently bordering one rich in natural resources.
The spin doctors are really hard pressed to explain this away ...
Funny, I see no US or NATO tanks in my in-laws back yard?
I do see a real possibility of Russian tanks being there
, and it would be your basic land grab, not because a western facing Ukraine would have been such and abhorrent scenario for a *cough* moderate Russia..
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No Obama's poll numbers are very low. Most Americans are unhappy with him. If the Republicans could pull their heads out of their a*sses he would never have been elected. And now we have the prospect of an election with another Bush v. another Clinton. Two bad choices is the same as not choice at all. Add to that, that your "average" American is not politically engaged beyond what troth they can feed from, you have a broken process. We have career politicians that were never considered at the original Continental Congresses. I wish I had the power to depose my masters that Andrew feels I have, but I and like minded Americans cannot. There is a reason TV shows like Jerry Springer, Survivor and The Bachelor/ette are popular. There are many idiots in this country who cannot be bothered to think.
That this once great country is now filled with people who refuse to be informed is sad indeed. Many, who believe like I do, have simply given up. I am sure there are many similar folks in Russia who feel that their voice can never been heard so they trudge on.
HDL
HDL, sorry for late reply and thank you for replying to my post. Look, in Monte the situation is very different - we are as pro-American as it gets for zillion of our own reasons. For us, Republicans proved to be way better then Democrats and i think it's the same with Israel (and those two are the countries i care the most about).
It's the same here - people rant, but do nothing. I thought it could be they don't get it... So i spent years involved in various types of social activism, before it dawned on me that most do get it, but simply can't be bothered.
For me at the time was utmost important that we as a country don't go to war, because it was wrong, we weren't defending ourselves, but were the aggressor. Nobody from my family and fraternity (subdivision of tribe, more or less includes everyone i am related to up to 4th generation) went to Croatia and we were active on the other side, protesting and obstructing the official politics. Then ours made U turn and my own vision coincided with that to which the gvmnt arrived, so i didn't feel i must be in opposition any longer. (That's in brief about what was going on in Montenegro last 20y or so ;))
As per why i am keen on such topics: i grew up during cold war, was subjected to extreme brain washing (never believed in what we were pushed down our throats) YET i never really got it, what's at the root of that hostility? I've been living in FSU back and forth all my life (father's work, schooling etc.) and all i see is Americans getting perfectly along with Russians in all circumstances outside the official track. From the point of view of a person from a small nation, you two, as nations, share a lot of qualities and characteristics. There is not a single reason imho for the hatred in which i grew up and for antagonism which we witness today. Mind you, it's not even about ideas - people who create these foreign politics are not really motivated by ideas (communism vs. capitalism or whatever.) That's what i am trying to figure out for myself, what's the root of it all?
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Being kind is rather приятный (в общении), both lyubeznosty and priyatnosty are indicative of external attitudes, whereas доброта is internal quality (which can, but doesn't have to manifest externally) of one's character, ie. goodness.
Perhaps I should take more lessons in English then :)
Ooops, i added a note to my above post, NO, linguistically all would do, what i elaborated on is more of a philosophical take.
Does доброта have to manifest as любезность? If you ask a person from the West, they probably would say YES , whereas most of the people in Eastern Europe would say NO (i think).
Yeah Sorry, Nadia is my better half. She doesn't have any religion at all either, none of her family do, they took me to Orthodox Church in Chel on 2004 (it was lovely by the way) and it was the first time any of them had been to Church.
I asked her too what does любезность and she said 'pleasantry'.
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I asked her too what does любезность and she said 'pleasantry'.
Yep. It's from Old Church Slavonic, and all Slavic languages i can think of from the top of my head (six at least) use exactly the same word for the same phenomena; same with word доброта.
доброта [добро́та] {f} (also: одолжение, любезность, доброжелательность, доброе дело) kindness {noun}
доброта [добро́та] {f} (also: великодушие, любезность, добродетель, хорошее качество) goodness {noun}
доброта [добро́та] {f} (also: благожелательность, доброжелательность, благожелательное отношение покупателей к продукции фирмы)) benevolence {noun}
доброта [добро́та] {f} (also: мягкость, отлогость) gentleness {noun}
доброта [добро́та] {f} (also: добрый поступок) kindliness {noun}
доброта [добро́та] {f} benignity {noun}
доброта [добро́та] {f} (also: сердечность, мягкость, радушие, общительность) geniality {noun}
(http://en.bab.la/dictionary/russian-english)
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: грация, привлекательность, приличие, передышка) grace {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: вежливость, обходительность, этикет, учтивость)
courtesy {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: вежливость) civility {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: приятность) amenity {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: великодушие, доброта, добродетель, хорошее качество) goodness {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: одолжение, доброта, доброжелательность, доброе дело) kindness {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: приличие, порядочность, вежливость, соблюдение приличий) decency {имя существительное}*
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: вежливость, учтивость, городская жизнь) urbanity* {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: почтительность, обходительность, услужливость) complaisance {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} good office {имя существительное}
любезность [любе́зность] {ж.р.} (также: благовоспитанность, знатность) gentlehood {имя существительное
I strongly disagree though that любезность could mean decency too ( and i've never heard it used for urbanity and good office.)
decency is порядочность:http://www.psychologos.ru/articles/view/poryadochnost
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Aj, you realize when those hard core supporters over the pond and even couple in your own back yard are going to
wake up tomorrow, read what you wrote, and say that poor simple fool.
No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
Everything that is wrong in the worlds is the fault of the good ole USA, ain't ya been paying attention.
For all their spouting about education and understanding English, hard to believe they can be so thick.
But some folks put on the blinders and plow straight ahead, does make you wonder eh?
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Aj, you realize when those hard core supporters over the pond and even couple in your own back yard are going to
wake up tomorrow, read what you wrote, and say that poor simple fool.
No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
Everything that is wrong in the worlds is the fault of the good ole USA, ain't ya been paying attention.
For all their spouting about education and understanding English, hard to believe they can be so thick.
But some folks put on the blinders and plow straight ahead, does make you wonder eh?
Good grief.
I don't have the time to even correct AJ's starting points where from he draws his conclusions. Which would be needed before one addresses his conclusions.
-
Aj, you realize when those hard core supporters over the pond and even couple in your own back yard are going to
wake up tomorrow, read what you wrote, and say that poor simple fool.
No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
Everything that is wrong in the worlds is the fault of the good ole USA, ain't ya been paying attention.
For all their spouting about education and understanding English, hard to believe they can be so thick.
But some folks put on the blinders and plow straight ahead, does make you wonder eh?
Good grief.
Jeezz Manny you got an Alarm beside the bed, when someone posts something negative about Putin it wakes you up :chuckle:
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Aj, you realize when those hard core supporters over the pond and even couple in your own back yard are going to
wake up tomorrow, read what you wrote, and say that poor simple fool.
No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
Everything that is wrong in the worlds is the fault of the good ole USA, ain't ya been paying attention.
For all their spouting about education and understanding English, hard to believe they can be so thick.
But some folks put on the blinders and plow straight ahead, does make you wonder eh?
Good grief.
Jeezz Manny you got an Alarm beside the bed, when someone posts something negative about Putin it wakes you up :chuckle:
I am not on Moscow time. It isnt especially late here. :chuckle:
-
No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
I beg to differ, no second coming in our Book... :knit:
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No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
I beg to differ, no second coming in our Book... :knit:
I didn't say all on the other side of the pond :)
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No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
I beg to differ, no second coming in our Book... :knit:
I didn't say all on the other side of the pond :)
Ah, ok then! ;D :KISSSS:
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Aj, you realize when those hard core supporters over the pond and even couple in your own back yard are going to
wake up tomorrow, read what you wrote, and say that poor simple fool.
No way could Putin be to blame for any of this, I mean after all he's the second coming to these folks :chuckle:
Everything that is wrong in the worlds is the fault of the good ole USA, ain't ya been paying attention.
For all their spouting about education and understanding English, hard to believe they can be so thick.
But some folks put on the blinders and plow straight ahead, does make you wonder eh?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
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Good grief.
I don't have the time to even correct AJ's starting points where from he draws his conclusions. Which would be needed before one addresses his conclusions.
Instead of conclusions, I'll just pause to wonder if an independent Ukraine had made a bunch of excuses after signing Budapest, about not returning all the nukes,since agreements seem not so binding, as merely suggestive... and after all Russia *meddled* -
what Russia and the UK's position would have been?
:dh:
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
They certainly are capable of most anything..?
I've little doubt they meddled.I've less doubt Russia has as well.
Yet I find it interesting that you feel the past predicts future events?Interesting indeed.
Winter War- ...... The Soviets had already started an intensive mobilisation near the Finnish border in 1938–1939. However, assault troops thought necessary for the invasion did not begin deployment until October 1939. Operational plans made in September called for the invasion to start in November
Shelling of Mainila-
On 26 November,(1939) a border incident was reported near the village of Mainila. A Soviet border guard post had been shelled by an unknown party resulting, according to Soviet reports, in the deaths of four and injuries of nine border guards. Research conducted by several Finnish and Russian historians later concluded that the shelling was carried out from the Soviet side of the border by an NKVD unit with the purpose of providing the Soviet Union with a casus belli and a pretext to withdraw from the non-aggression pact.[70][F 12]
Molotov claimed that it was a Finnish artillery attack and demanded that Finland apologise for the incident and move its forces beyond a line 20–25 km (12–16 mi) away from the border.[73] Finland denied responsibility for the attack, rejected the demands, and called for a joint Finnish–Soviet commission to examine the incident. The Soviet Union then claimed that the Finnish response was hostile, renounced the non-aggression pact and severed diplomatic relations with Finland on 28 November. In the following years, Soviet historiography described the incident as a Finnish provocation....
....However, the issue continued to divide Russian historiography even after the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.
Crimea seems just a mistaken border drawing, now doesn't it?
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
They certainly are capable of most anything..?
I've little doubt they meddled.I've less doubt Russia has as well.
Yet I find it interesting that you feel the past predicts future events?Interesting indeed.
Winter War- ...... The Soviets had already started an intensive mobilisation near the Finnish border in 1938–1939. However, assault troops thought necessary for the invasion did not begin deployment until October 1939. Operational plans made in September called for the invasion to start in November
Shelling of Mainila-
On 26 November,(1939) a border incident was reported near the village of Mainila. A Soviet border guard post had been shelled by an unknown party resulting, according to Soviet reports, in the deaths of four and injuries of nine border guards. Research conducted by several Finnish and Russian historians later concluded that the shelling was carried out from the Soviet side of the border by an NKVD unit with the purpose of providing the Soviet Union with a casus belli and a pretext to withdraw from the non-aggression pact.[70][F 12]
Molotov claimed that it was a Finnish artillery attack and demanded that Finland apologise for the incident and move its forces beyond a line 20–25 km (12–16 mi) away from the border.[73] Finland denied responsibility for the attack, rejected the demands, and called for a joint Finnish–Soviet commission to examine the incident. The Soviet Union then claimed that the Finnish response was hostile, renounced the non-aggression pact and severed diplomatic relations with Finland on 28 November. In the following years, Soviet historiography described the incident as a Finnish provocation....
....However, the issue continued to divide Russian historiography even after the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.
Crimea seems just a mistaken border drawing, now doesn't it?
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
One needs to learn from the past.
Maybe at this time the United states would never aggressively invaded Russia.
But who knows when the United states will elect a president set on world domination
Some would believe the current regime is working on it now..
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
They certainly are capable of most anything..?
I've little doubt they meddled.I've less doubt Russia has as well.
Yet I find it interesting that you feel the past predicts future events?Interesting indeed.
Winter War- ...... The Soviets had already started an intensive mobilisation near the Finnish border in 1938–1939. However, assault troops thought necessary for the invasion did not begin deployment until October 1939. Operational plans made in September called for the invasion to start in November
Shelling of Mainila-
On 26 November,(1939) a border incident was reported near the village of Mainila. A Soviet border guard post had been shelled by an unknown party resulting, according to Soviet reports, in the deaths of four and injuries of nine border guards. Research conducted by several Finnish and Russian historians later concluded that the shelling was carried out from the Soviet side of the border by an NKVD unit with the purpose of providing the Soviet Union with a casus belli and a pretext to withdraw from the non-aggression pact.[70][F 12]
Molotov claimed that it was a Finnish artillery attack and demanded that Finland apologise for the incident and move its forces beyond a line 20–25 km (12–16 mi) away from the border.[73] Finland denied responsibility for the attack, rejected the demands, and called for a joint Finnish–Soviet commission to examine the incident. The Soviet Union then claimed that the Finnish response was hostile, renounced the non-aggression pact and severed diplomatic relations with Finland on 28 November. In the following years, Soviet historiography described the incident as a Finnish provocation....
....However, the issue continued to divide Russian historiography even after the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.
Crimea seems just a mistaken border drawing, now doesn't it?
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
I'm sure Russia would love to have more military bases in foreign countries but few foreign countries trust Russia enough to have the Russian military on their soil. Tom Cat how many countries do you really think want Russian navy ships docked in their harbours or Russian soldiers stationed on their soil?
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
You believe the US government has manipulated the American people in the past but you don't believe Putin has manipulated the Russian people?
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
They certainly are capable of most anything..?
I've little doubt they meddled.I've less doubt Russia has as well.
Yet I find it interesting that you feel the past predicts future events?Interesting indeed.
Winter War- ...... The Soviets had already started an intensive mobilisation near the Finnish border in 1938–1939. However, assault troops thought necessary for the invasion did not begin deployment until October 1939. Operational plans made in September called for the invasion to start in November
Shelling of Mainila-
On 26 November,(1939) a border incident was reported near the village of Mainila. A Soviet border guard post had been shelled by an unknown party resulting, according to Soviet reports, in the deaths of four and injuries of nine border guards. Research conducted by several Finnish and Russian historians later concluded that the shelling was carried out from the Soviet side of the border by an NKVD unit with the purpose of providing the Soviet Union with a casus belli and a pretext to withdraw from the non-aggression pact.[70][F 12]
Molotov claimed that it was a Finnish artillery attack and demanded that Finland apologise for the incident and move its forces beyond a line 20–25 km (12–16 mi) away from the border.[73] Finland denied responsibility for the attack, rejected the demands, and called for a joint Finnish–Soviet commission to examine the incident. The Soviet Union then claimed that the Finnish response was hostile, renounced the non-aggression pact and severed diplomatic relations with Finland on 28 November. In the following years, Soviet historiography described the incident as a Finnish provocation....
....However, the issue continued to divide Russian historiography even after the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.
Crimea seems just a mistaken border drawing, now doesn't it?
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
One needs to learn from the past.
Maybe at this time the United states would never aggressively invaded Russia.
But who knows when the United states will elect a president set on world domination
Some would believe the current regime is working on it now..
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
The United States is a hegemony, less so under Obama but still dominant and intent in keeping it that way. It's not perfect but I haven't found a better place to live.
I guarantee you if Putin had the ability to switch places he would do so in a heart beat.
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html
You still think the United states should be involved in Ukraine?
I
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
They certainly are capable of most anything..?
I've little doubt they meddled.I've less doubt Russia has as well.
Yet I find it interesting that you feel the past predicts future events?Interesting indeed.
Winter War- ...... The Soviets had already started an intensive mobilisation near the Finnish border in 1938–1939. However, assault troops thought necessary for the invasion did not begin deployment until October 1939. Operational plans made in September called for the invasion to start in November
Shelling of Mainila-
On 26 November,(1939) a border incident was reported near the village of Mainila. A Soviet border guard post had been shelled by an unknown party resulting, according to Soviet reports, in the deaths of four and injuries of nine border guards. Research conducted by several Finnish and Russian historians later concluded that the shelling was carried out from the Soviet side of the border by an NKVD unit with the purpose of providing the Soviet Union with a casus belli and a pretext to withdraw from the non-aggression pact.[70][F 12]
Molotov claimed that it was a Finnish artillery attack and demanded that Finland apologise for the incident and move its forces beyond a line 20–25 km (12–16 mi) away from the border.[73] Finland denied responsibility for the attack, rejected the demands, and called for a joint Finnish–Soviet commission to examine the incident. The Soviet Union then claimed that the Finnish response was hostile, renounced the non-aggression pact and severed diplomatic relations with Finland on 28 November. In the following years, Soviet historiography described the incident as a Finnish provocation....
....However, the issue continued to divide Russian historiography even after the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.
Crimea seems just a mistaken border drawing, now doesn't it?
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
I'm sure Russia would love to have more military bases in foreign countries but few foreign countries trust Russia enough to have the Russian military on their soil. Tom Cat how many countries do you really think want Russian navy ships docked in their harbours or Russian soldiers stationed on their soil?
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
You believe the US government has manipulated the American people in the past but you don't believe Putin has manipulated the Russian people?
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
WestCoast,
The United states military dose not have the best reputation when it comes to civilian casualties.
If things escalate retirement in Russia would not be my first choice.
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WestCoast,
The United states military dose not have the best reputation when it comes to civilian casualties.
If things escalate retirement in Russia would not be my first choice.
I can understand that. When the Russian government was fighting Chechen separatists they defeated them by razing entire towns killing tens of thousands of innocents, probably more.
Putin was in charge for much of the second Chechen War. You'd think with all his talk of autonomy for the pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine he'd have been in favour of the Chechen separatists having their own independent country.
Some estimates put the death toll of the second Chechen War at over 100,000. After defeating the separatists Putin installed a puppet government that would take orders from Moscow. Sounds like what Putin has planned for Ukraine doesn't it?
-
The United States is a hegemony, less so under Obama but still dominant and intent in keeping it that way. It's not perfect but I haven't found a better place to live.
I guarantee you if Putin had the ability to switch places he would do so in a heart beat.
You are both hegemonic, that's why we have to be very smart so to keep great bilateral relations, without having you put your boot on our neck and keep it there :KISSSS:
As per US, that's what my father says: far from perfect, still, the best (democracy) we have. ;)
-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Try to convince me that the folks in Washington, are not capable of repeating the same actions as the former idiots have done, in the past (:)
They certainly are capable of most anything..?
I've little doubt they meddled.I've less doubt Russia has as well.
Yet I find it interesting that you feel the past predicts future events?Interesting indeed.
Winter War- ...... The Soviets had already started an intensive mobilisation near the Finnish border in 1938–1939. However, assault troops thought necessary for the invasion did not begin deployment until October 1939. Operational plans made in September called for the invasion to start in November
Shelling of Mainila-
On 26 November,(1939) a border incident was reported near the village of Mainila. A Soviet border guard post had been shelled by an unknown party resulting, according to Soviet reports, in the deaths of four and injuries of nine border guards. Research conducted by several Finnish and Russian historians later concluded that the shelling was carried out from the Soviet side of the border by an NKVD unit with the purpose of providing the Soviet Union with a casus belli and a pretext to withdraw from the non-aggression pact.[70][F 12]
Molotov claimed that it was a Finnish artillery attack and demanded that Finland apologise for the incident and move its forces beyond a line 20–25 km (12–16 mi) away from the border.[73] Finland denied responsibility for the attack, rejected the demands, and called for a joint Finnish–Soviet commission to examine the incident. The Soviet Union then claimed that the Finnish response was hostile, renounced the non-aggression pact and severed diplomatic relations with Finland on 28 November. In the following years, Soviet historiography described the incident as a Finnish provocation....
....However, the issue continued to divide Russian historiography even after the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russian President Vladimir Putin said on 14 March 2013 at a meeting with military historians that Stalin launched the war to "correct mistakes" made in drawing the border with Finland after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution.
Crimea seems just a mistaken border drawing, now doesn't it?
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
I'm sure Russia would love to have more military bases in foreign countries but few foreign countries trust Russia enough to have the Russian military on their soil. Tom Cat how many countries do you really think want Russian navy ships docked in their harbours or Russian soldiers stationed on their soil?
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
You believe the US government has manipulated the American people in the past but you don't believe Putin has manipulated the Russian people?
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
WestCoast,
The United states military dose not have the best reputation when it comes to civilian casualties.
If things escalate retirement in Russia would not be my first choice.
I love it when Americans bitch about the military and still enjoy the freedoms of being able to criticize it. You may not appreciate what the men and women of the Armed Forces give up to keep you free (their own freedom for starters) but show a little respect for the fact that we work VERY HARD to minimize civilian casualties...more so than you can possibly know.
If you can't do that then by all means find another place to live to keep your conscience clean.
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
It is still a very stupid statement.
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
We've grown accustomed to it because Westy routinely employs such fallacies. Argument by dismissal, specifically the if-you-don't-it-here fallacy, is very popular amongst mindless American flag-wavers but it's remarkable that an armchair-bound Canadian is waving the flag for them.
-
Westy has firm opinions but he never crosses the lines, he doesn't become personal and doesn't insult anyone. And what's all this sofa-envy among some of the RUA members? ;D
Wasn't it for Westy, with whom would you argue?
I like your posts, Westy, albeit i almost always disagree with you :)
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
Westy,
I said Russia is NOT my first choice this is Not agreeing with you.
-
It ain't sofa envy, he's the man with the comfy armchair and I doubt anyone here is envious of it. ;)
-
It ain't sofa envy, he's the man with the comfy armchair and I doubt anyone here is envious of it. ;)
Oh, Andrew, i must admit i have very deep emotional bond with my own sofa...
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii618/Ruth_Stefanowitz/10358183_1408323932782664_133599708_a_zpsuv8vehwj.jpg)
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2711464/STEPHEN-GLOVER-I-m-afraid-bitter-truth-Iraq-Libya-better-tyrants-toppled-arrogant-naive-West.html
Time and time again we have seen the failure of U.S. foreign policy.
Why is it so difficult for some to reason what is taking place in Ukraine.
whenever the United states gets involved there is just added casualties.
The end result fall far short of expectations.
Even in countries like Iraq and Libya where tyrants ruled, the people are no better off.
The west all too often makes promises that it does not deliver.
Russia and Ukraine needs to work this out, without involvement from the United states.
If the EU wants to be involved in negotiations fine, as this is a European matter.
-
But your sofa or armchair do not define the outer limits of your world or thoughts.
There's a difference between you. For one of you your comfy seat is a place to relax and maybe take respite from the world, for the other the armchair is where the world is experienced.
===
Tomcat, I no longer see the tragedy of Ukraine as a foreign policy failure on the part of the US but rather as a clear expression of it. What is happening in Ukraine, guided by the guys on the 4th floor of the SBU building in Kiev, is pretty much what the US wants to see. They might have preferred that Russia became overtly involved months ago and the failure to understand why that would not happen is a genuine failure, but the process and purpose are as designed.
-
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
Westy,
Since I don't like the Obama administration I should have to leave my country and
move away? I can't criticize it? I can't actively work to get others elected? You see
regardless of whether I agree with Tomcat, or Yankee, or Tom or GriffinCo or Cuffy
or any of the other Americans who post here or not, they don't have to leave when
they disagree with something.
As Americans we believe that we have not only the right but our civic duty to change
things for the better as we see fit. Regardless of whether I agree with any of those guys
they have the right to their opinions and the right to try to change things legally within.
The America love it or leave it argument as it relates to politics is a fallacy of reasoning.
Actually the argument should be America love it and work to improve it for the better.
Just my two kopecks,
Bill
-
Thank you Bill
-
Thank you Bill
+1
-
As Americans we believe that we have not only the right but our civic duty to change
things for the better as we see fit. Regardless of whether I agree with any of those guys
they have the right to their opinions and the right to try to change things legally within.
The America love it or leave it argument as it relates to politics is a fallacy of reasoning.
Actually the argument should be America love it and work to improve it for the better.
I agree - as applied to every single country, not only to US. Usually 'if you don't like it - leave it' is told to foreigners who rant about their host country and i told it to several people both in US and in Russia. If a country would have us, we shan't forget we are guests and should behave as such (be courteous). As per my own country, i also do whatever i can to change what i think can be bettered, but would never ever give up the citizenship. (Unless, G-d forbid, there would be atrocities performed perpetually in the name of my nation, then i would feel obliged to do so... I don't see it happening though.)
Dunno, i loved all the countries where i lived and (we've discussed it many times with other expats), it's as if the countries feel it and respond to whatever energy you send out; peeps who rant get into kinds of difficulties, i passed smoothly almost everywhere, be it US or Russia :biggrin:
-
What determines a better quality of life?
Living in the EU or United states you can live a quality life style not found in the FSU.
You have unlimited earning potential, the freedom to do so much more than you could ever hope for living in the fsu,( western mentality)
But yet we looked to the FSU to find a wife, because the quality lifestyle has made many of the local women less desirable.
Just keep in mind all the qualities you find so attractive in fsuw, did not come from living as we do in the west.
Our way of life is just different, from the fsu, that doesn't make it any better.
-
Bill,
The love-it-or-leave-it cliche is often used by those who aren't sharp enough to realize that there are many other viable options. I wish that I had a Rouble for every plank who told me that... and "don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out."
-
I am hoping to become a "fleet of foot" expat, myself.
-
Bill,
The love-it-or-leave-it cliche is often used by those who aren't sharp enough to realize that there are many other viable options. I wish that I had a Rouble for every plank who told me that... and "don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out."
Tom, do you mean US or Russia? This is my thinking: if you (generic you) pay taxes and vote somewhere, rant all you like (i do so in Monte), elsewhere... no. I don't like foreigners who live in US, yet complain all the time and the same with Russia, that's where it's said: love-it-or-leave-it.
I am hoping to become a "fleet of foot" expat, myself.
It's cool for some time, then (i think, at least for what i know you) you need to have roots/ base somewhere and hopefully, a family. I sometimes feel i'll suffocate from proximity to people and closeness that's normal here, but then elsewhere i miss it and tend to establish the same deep and trusting bonds with people wherever i go ;D
-
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
One needs to learn from the past.
Maybe at this time the United states would never aggressively invaded Russia.
But who knows when the United states will elect a president set on world domination
Some would believe the current regime is working on it now..
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Irony alludes you Tomcat?
I mean the entire winter war ,you just quoted me on, was constructed prior,, then a manipulated incident ,killing their own soldiers, to make and excuse to start the war.Deny it to their people for at least 50 years or more.
Russia is capable .History has shown mulitple times.
and isnt that what you were talking about?
has the US done similar? probably,,but to think /Russia incapable is a bit absurd in the light if history.
Has the US medelled? certainly.
Yet, to think russia is the only country with the *cough* right to meddle ,for their own selfish interests, in an independent ukraine , is a tad naive to me.
on other topics-
My advise is tread carefully of what you read about but dont know.
Having walked the walk, which from your posts most assuredly you have not,,
lecturing me on civilian casualties is very very odd at best.
Get back to me when you have spent significant time protecting those refugees which neither side of some affair cares for.,whose way of life has been shattered as well as family lost.
I certainly wont stand by and let you belittle people i knew well who lost their lives doing so, while specifically avoiding civilian casualties.Their memory and families deserve far better.
I'm fairly jaded ,and certainly don't condone US meddling as you put it, i dont deny it occurs.
I also dont pretend any major nation is not self serving in their interests which includes Russia.
Their past history with Ukraine is one riddled with a huge loss of ukrainian life.
Some how the former head of the FSB /KGB responsible for plenty of
past manipulations in bordering countries,, has a completely clean slate this time. Sorry if i find that not entirely plausible.
From past sbootson thre groiund, both sides are typically dirty and far less than half is ever reported.
-
Tom, do you mean US or Russia?
My comments were in response to Westy and Griffin's clever suggestion that Tom Cat should leave the United States.
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2711464/STEPHEN-GLOVER-I-m-afraid-bitter-truth-Iraq-Libya-better-tyrants-toppled-arrogant-naive-West.html
Time and time again we have seen the failure of U.S. foreign policy.
Why is it so difficult for some to reason what is taking place in Ukraine.
whenever the United states gets involved there is just added casualties.
The end result fall far short of expectations.
Even in countries like Iraq and Libya where tyrants ruled, the people are no better off.
The west all too often makes promises that it does not deliver.
As I've stated before I thought the US involvement in Iraq was a mistake and am glad that Canada didn't get involved. As for Libya, the US was involved because the countries in the Middle East couldn't handle it on their own and even the involvement of EU countries wasn't enough. This brought in the US and Canada.
Russia and Ukraine needs to work this out, without involvement from the United states.
Why should Russia be involved? If as Manny and Andrew say, and I disagree, Russia isn't aiding the pro-Russian rebels than why should Russia be involved in an internal Ukrainian matter? If Russia wants to offer citizenship to Ukrainians fleeing Ukraine that's fine but what does Russia have to do with an internal Ukrainian affair? When Russia was at war with Chechen separatists they didn't want anyone aiding them or the separatists.
-
Tom, do you mean US or Russia?
My comments were in response to Westy and Griffin's clever suggestion that Tom Cat should leave the United States.
Thanks for clarifying, Tom, i thought so. :)
-
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
Westy,
Since I don't like the Obama administration I should have to leave my country and
move away? I can't criticize it? I can't actively work to get others elected? You see
regardless of whether I agree with Tomcat, or Yankee, or Tom or GriffinCo or Cuffy
or any of the other Americans who post here or not, they don't have to leave when
they disagree with something.
As Americans we believe that we have not only the right but our civic duty to change
things for the better as we see fit. Regardless of whether I agree with any of those guys
they have the right to their opinions and the right to try to change things legally within.
The America love it or leave it argument as it relates to politics is a fallacy of reasoning.
Actually the argument should be America love it and work to improve it for the better.
Just my two kopecks,
Bill
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you don't like your country AND have a preference for another country (by his comments Tom Cat seems to prefer the Russian style of governing over the US style) in which you have or can obtain citizenship why not move to that other country? This is the 21st century it's not that difficult to move to the other side of the world, especially if you have family there that can help you settle in and get your bearings in a new environment. As I've mentioned in the past I've been involved in helping immigrants to Canada through the process of immigrating to and settling into Canada.
As for giving up US citizenship you'll find because of the US government's method of taxing worldwide income it is difficult for Americans to do simple things like open bank accounts in foreign countries and find qualified professionals to do American taxes. As a result of this a number of Americans are giving up their citizenship because of the trouble this policy has caused.
-
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
One needs to learn from the past.
Maybe at this time the United states would never aggressively invaded Russia.
But who knows when the United states will elect a president set on world domination
Some would believe the current regime is working on it now..
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Irony alludes you Tomcat?
I mean the entire winter war ,you just quoted me on, was constructed prior,, then a manipulated incident ,killing their own soldiers, to make and excuse to start the war.Deny it to their people for at least 50 years or more.
Russia is capable .History has shown mulitple times.
and isnt that what you were talking about?
has the US done similar? probably,,but to think /Russia incapable is a bit absurd in the light if history.
Has the US medelled? certainly.
Yet, to think russia is the only country with the *cough* right to meddle ,for their own selfish interests, in an independent ukraine , is a tad naive to me.
on other topics-
My advise is tread carefully of what you read about but dont know.
Having walked the walk, which from your posts most assuredly you have not,,
lecturing me on civilian casualties is very very odd at best.
Get back to me when you have spent significant time protecting those refugees which neither side of some affair cares for.,whose way of life has been shattered as well as family lost.
I certainly wont stand by and let you belittle people i knew well who lost their lives doing so, while specifically avoiding civilian casualties.Their memory and families deserve far better.
I'm fairly jaded ,and certainly don't condone US meddling as you put it, i dont deny it occurs.
I also dont pretend any major nation is not self serving in their interests which includes Russia.
Their past history with Ukraine is one riddled with a huge loss of ukrainian life.
Some how the former head of the FSB /KGB responsible for plenty of
past manipulations in bordering countries,, has a completely clean slate this time. Sorry if i find that not entirely plausible.
From past sbootson thre groiund, both sides are typically dirty and far less than half is ever reported.
AJ,
Sorry I don't have much time when posting, and often don't convey my thoughts completely.
I'm not saying Russia is not without fault or that their history was not without great tragedies of human life lost.
I also have great respect for those that give their life defending their country.
My disgust is that our armed forces are asked to fight and are killed as well as civilians in wars that really didn't do anything for national security.
The end result is it spawned more terrorist ,and making a vicious cycle that will continue.
Putin and Russia also have seen and felt the effects of military action will only bring more violence.
In 2010 I was in one of the metro stations about 15 minutes before the bombing. When I mentioned civilian casualties it's not just from military, but from the retaliatory actions.
I wouldn't doubt the actions taking place in Ukraine will bring retaliatory attacks on Russian civilians once again.
Russia and the United states both will need to see the error of their ways.
But I will stand firm on my opinion the United states should not be involved in Ukraine.
-
I wonder if there is any truth to the reported use of barrier squads by Ukraine.
http://www.tasnimnews.com/English/Home/Single/635787
Something else that struck me, recently, is the small number of Ukrainian causalities reported, given that the fighting was "raging." I suspect that someone may be cooking the books.
-
Something else that struck me, recently, is the small number of Ukrainian causalities reported, given that the fighting was "raging." I suspect that someone may be cooking the books.
There is no doubt that the Ukrainian government is covering up the amount of casualties and injured.
-
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
One needs to learn from the past.
Maybe at this time the United states would never aggressively invaded Russia.
But who knows when the United states will elect a president set on world domination
Some would believe the current regime is working on it now..
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Irony alludes you Tomcat?
I mean the entire winter war ,you just quoted me on, was constructed prior,, then a manipulated incident ,killing their own soldiers, to make and excuse to start the war.Deny it to their people for at least 50 years or more.
Russia is capable .History has shown mulitple times.
and isnt that what you were talking about?
has the US done similar? probably,,but to think /Russia incapable is a bit absurd in the light if history.
Has the US medelled? certainly.
Yet, to think russia is the only country with the *cough* right to meddle ,for their own selfish interests, in an independent ukraine , is a tad naive to me.
on other topics-
My advise is tread carefully of what you read about but dont know.
Having walked the walk, which from your posts most assuredly you have not,,
lecturing me on civilian casualties is very very odd at best.
Get back to me when you have spent significant time protecting those refugees which neither side of some affair cares for.,whose way of life has been shattered as well as family lost.
I certainly wont stand by and let you belittle people i knew well who lost their lives doing so, while specifically avoiding civilian casualties.Their memory and families deserve far better.
I'm fairly jaded ,and certainly don't condone US meddling as you put it, i dont deny it occurs.
I also dont pretend any major nation is not self serving in their interests which includes Russia.
Their past history with Ukraine is one riddled with a huge loss of ukrainian life.
Some how the former head of the FSB /KGB responsible for plenty of
past manipulations in bordering countries,, has a completely clean slate this time. Sorry if i find that not entirely plausible.
From past sbootson thre groiund, both sides are typically dirty and far less than half is ever reported.
AJ,
Sorry I don't have much time when posting, and often don't convey my thoughts completely.
I'm not saying Russia is not without fault or that their history was not without great tragedies of human life lost.
I also have great respect for those that give their life defending their country.
My disgust is that our armed forces are asked to fight and are killed as well as civilians in wars that really didn't do anything for national security.
The end result is it spawned more terrorist ,and making a vicious cycle that will continue.
Putin and Russia also have seen and felt the effects of military action will only bring more violence.
In 2010 I was in one of the metro stations about 15 minutes before the bombing. When I mentioned civilian casualties it's not just from military, but from the retaliatory actions.
I wouldn't doubt the actions taking place in Ukraine will bring retaliatory attacks on Russian civilians once again.
Russia and the United states both will need to see the error of their ways.
But I will stand firm on my opinion the United states should not be involved in Ukraine.
TomCat,
We agree far more than disagree.
-
AJ,
The United states has military bases in 63 countries, with between 250- 300 thousand stationed around the world.
Russia has 11 most in boarder countries . Maybe 20 thousand stationed on base.
It would seem Russia is not interested in world domination, but it does want secure boarders.
One needs to learn from the past.
Maybe at this time the United states would never aggressively invaded Russia.
But who knows when the United states will elect a president set on world domination
Some would believe the current regime is working on it now..
The Russian people elected Putin to lead Russia and to keep Russia strong and safe.
The United state's government has shown time and time again they are capable of manipulating the American people into believing there is reasonable proof to use military action.
It's not just what uncle Sam has manipulated within Ukraine, but what uncle Sam has been doing all over the world.
Irony alludes you Tomcat?
I mean the entire winter war ,you just quoted me on, was constructed prior,, then a manipulated incident ,killing their own soldiers, to make and excuse to start the war.Deny it to their people for at least 50 years or more.
Russia is capable .History has shown mulitple times.
and isnt that what you were talking about?
has the US done similar? probably,,but to think /Russia incapable is a bit absurd in the light if history.
Has the US medelled? certainly.
Yet, to think russia is the only country with the *cough* right to meddle ,for their own selfish interests, in an independent ukraine , is a tad naive to me.
on other topics-
My advise is tread carefully of what you read about but dont know.
Having walked the walk, which from your posts most assuredly you have not,,
lecturing me on civilian casualties is very very odd at best.
Get back to me when you have spent significant time protecting those refugees which neither side of some affair cares for.,whose way of life has been shattered as well as family lost.
I certainly wont stand by and let you belittle people i knew well who lost their lives doing so, while specifically avoiding civilian casualties.Their memory and families deserve far better.
I'm fairly jaded ,and certainly don't condone US meddling as you put it, i dont deny it occurs.
I also dont pretend any major nation is not self serving in their interests which includes Russia.
Their past history with Ukraine is one riddled with a huge loss of ukrainian life.
Some how the former head of the FSB /KGB responsible for plenty of
past manipulations in bordering countries,, has a completely clean slate this time. Sorry if i find that not entirely plausible.
From past sbootson thre groiund, both sides are typically dirty and far less than half is ever reported.
^^^This was the gist of what I meant.
[rant]
Do I take offense to Americans who belittle the men and women who make sacrifices for them...that their freely elected representatives tell them to make...whether they agree with them or not? Yep. Do I take offense at comparing the "rebels" who show a blatant disregard for civilian casualties (see Mariupol) compared the professionals of the US Military who work incredibly hard to avoid them? Yep.
And I stand by the statement that if someone naively condemns these men and women for the "atrocities" they commit, then they should find someplace to live where they don't have to worry about killing people and breaking things to live their life. You tend to have a different perspective of these things watching what military life does to good people and their families. Even the ones who come home with all their bits and pieces. Every one of us who live in a free country do so because people were willing...and are still willing to fight to make it that way.
Glad to hear that you appreciate them Tom Cat.
[/rant]
-
Precisely Griff.
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
WestCoast,
A couple years ago my wife applied for a visa to come and meet my mother who was in a nursing home with little time to live. My wife was denied the visa and felt she was unwelcome in the United states.
Took some time but I convinced her how great it is and she would be welcomed.
When my wife became ill we again tried to get her a visa so she could get treated in the states.
She was denied again so I contacted every government official I could and asked for their help.
An emergency medical visa should have been granted but it didn't happen.
I wasn't with my wife when she died, and I am very sure she would be alive today had she gotten medical treatment here in the states.
It's very difficult to believe in a system that is so screwed up,
I have every right to criticize the government that I could not depend on. >:(
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
WestCoast,
A couple years ago my wife applied for a visa to come and meet my mother who was in a nursing home with little time to live. My wife was denied the visa and felt she was unwelcome in the United states.
Took some time but I convinced her how great it is and she would be welcomed.
When my wife became ill we again tried to get her a visa so she could get treated in the states.
She was denied again so I contacted every government official I could and asked for their help.
An emergency medical visa should have been granted but it didn't happen.
I wasn't with my wife when she died, and I am very sure she would be alive today had she gotten medical treatment here in the states.
It's very difficult to believe in a system that is so screwed up,
I have every right to criticize the government that I could not depend on. >:(
Wow, that IS messed up. I'd be more than upset about that. I criticize the government all the time and you have way more right and reason to than I ever do.
I'm very sorry to hear that Tom Cat. :(
-
Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
WestCoast,
A couple years ago my wife applied for a visa to come and meet my mother who was in a nursing home with little time to live. My wife was denied the visa and felt she was unwelcome in the United states.
Took some time but I convinced her how great it is and she would be welcomed.
When my wife became ill we again tried to get her a visa so she could get treated in the states.
She was denied again so I contacted every government official I could and asked for their help.
An emergency medical visa should have been granted but it didn't happen.
I wasn't with my wife when she died, and I am very sure she would be alive today had she gotten medical treatment here in the states.
It's very difficult to believe in a system that is so screwed up,
I have every right to criticize the government that I could not depend on. >:(
Tom Cat I'm not saying you don't have the right to criticise your government, if you read the Obama thread you know I regularly criticise the US government. If you read the Canuck thread you know I regularly criticise the Canadian government.
What I am saying is if you prefer the Russian style of government over the US government, which your posts seem to indicate, why not immigrate to Russia? It's the 21st century people regularly immigrate to other countries. With a Russian wife you should have little problem acquiring citizenship.
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Tom Cat if you feel so strongly about the problems in the US why not get Russian citizenship and renounce your American citizenship? With a Russian wife it should be easy enough to gain Russian citizenship.
The above statement is probably one of the most outrageously stupid statements anyone can make.
And yet one of your fellow countrymen agrees with me.
Yankee in this day and age it's relatively easy to move from country to country. If Tom Cat doesn't like the US why shouldn't he move?
WestCoast,
A couple years ago my wife applied for a visa to come and meet my mother who was in a nursing home with little time to live. My wife was denied the visa and felt she was unwelcome in the United states.
Took some time but I convinced her how great it is and she would be welcomed.
When my wife became ill we again tried to get her a visa so she could get treated in the states.
She was denied again so I contacted every government official I could and asked for their help.
An emergency medical visa should have been granted but it didn't happen.
I wasn't with my wife when she died, and I am very sure she would be alive today had she gotten medical treatment here in the states.
It's very difficult to believe in a system that is so screwed up,
I have every right to criticize the government that I could not depend on. >:(
Tom Cat I'm not saying you don't have the right to criticise your government, if you read the Obama thread you know I regularly criticise the US government. If you read the Canuck thread you know I regularly criticise the Canadian government.
What I am saying is if you prefer the Russian style of government over the US government, which your posts seem to indicate, why not immigrate to Russia? It's the 21st century people regularly immigrate to other countries. With a Russian wife you should have little problem acquiring citizenship.
If you give up citizenship I think you would also give up any social security.
I don't know enough about the Russian gov. To say what is better, but I do know that Russian officials can be very accommodating for the right price.
That does come in handy
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Something else that struck me, recently, is the small number of Ukrainian causalities reported, given that the fighting was "raging." I suspect that someone may be cooking the books.
There is no doubt that the Ukrainian government is covering up the amount of casualties and injured.
It is difficult to determine casualties in a war that targets civilians. Unfortunately, the Russian backed troops have not tried to limit civilian casualties, and they have targeted troops retreating under the banner of peace ...
Russia should have already come down hard on the terrorists. I understand Russian anger at how the current US/EU leaders have treated them. But, that is no reason to target civilians and troops under the banner of truce ....
IMHO.
Wayne
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^ Wayne, Ukraine doesn't care about civilians any more than Russia or the United States does. I was referring, but neglected to specify, to the under-reporting of Ukrainian troop casualties. Perhaps some of them have resulted from the friendly fire of barrier squads (which may or may not exist).
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If you give up citizenship I think you would also give up any social security.
I don't know enough about the Russian gov. To say what is better, but I do know that Russian officials can be very accommodating for the right price.
That does come in handy
You don't if you have worked enough quarters.
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Russia and Ukraine needs to work this out, without involvement from the United states.
Agreed, the US is part of the problem not the solution - consistent meddling just costs more and more lives!
If the EU wants to be involved in negotiations fine, as this is a European matter.
I've noticed that Aussies, Canadians and Americans constantly mention the EU and advantages of Ukraine being part of it - FWIW the EU already has its fair share of poor as piss countries requiring support from the more affluent members - and possibly many haven't noticed that EU membership will almost certainly be the final nail in the FSU crumpet importation business!
Note to Tom Cat I know you weren't pushing for Ukraine’s EU membership in the above post, it just seemed an appropriate place to insert the above point!
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=
I've noticed that Aussies, Canadians and Americans constantly mention the EU and advantages of Ukraine being part of it - FWIW the EU already has its fair share of poor as piss countries requiring support from the more affluent members - and possibly many haven't noticed that EU membership will almost certainly be the final nail in the FSU crumpet importation business!
True, and i've been posting about it before: realistically UA needs at least a decade to adjust their legislation to EU's, they need to change everything - from legal system to regulations in agriculture and the latter ( besides corruption), could prove to be the biggest problem because the existing members, such as Poland, need to be protected.
Monte, which is tiny, has no agricultural products to export and no working force available for immigration, has been on waiting list since ever, what to say about Ukrainians?
Anyway it is, until UA is ready to join, the EU itself could fall apart.
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Maybe more and extension of sanctions?
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3328772-france-eu-to-move-to-increase-sanctions-russia.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
This does go against Manny's predictions :duh:
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Maybe more and extension of sanctions?
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3328772-france-eu-to-move-to-increase-sanctions-russia.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
This does go against Manny's predictions :duh:
And with mine!
.
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Imported Crumpets vs Strumpets hmmm both tasty :evilgrin0002:
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Maybe more and extension of sanctions?
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3328772-france-eu-to-move-to-increase-sanctions-russia.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
This does go against Manny's predictions :duh:
Westy posted that, and what I read doesn't seem to be what the aggregating media (Mail, Yahoo etc) is reporting. >post here< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21576.msg396032#msg396032)
I'd be very surprised if any meaningful sanctions are extended. They are supposed to need the agreement of 28 countries to do it and they don't have that.
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Maybe more and extension of sanctions?
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3328772-france-eu-to-move-to-increase-sanctions-russia.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
This does go against Manny's predictions :duh:
Westy posted that, and what I read doesn't seem to be what the aggregating media (Mail, Yahoo etc) is reporting. >post here< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21576.msg396032#msg396032)
I'd be very surprised if any meaningful sanctions are extended. They are supposed to need the agreement of 28 countries to do it and they don't have that.
I thought the small stuff was reverse sanctions Putin put in place?
Is there any guarantee he will lift his sanctions?
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Maybe more and extension of sanctions?
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3328772-france-eu-to-move-to-increase-sanctions-russia.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
This does go against Manny's predictions :duh:
Westy posted that, and what I read doesn't seem to be what the aggregating media (Mail, Yahoo etc) is reporting. >post here< (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21576.msg396032#msg396032)
I'd be very surprised if any meaningful sanctions are extended. They are supposed to need the agreement of 28 countries to do it and they don't have that.
I thought the small stuff was reverse sanctions Putin put in place?
Is there any guarantee he will lift his sanctions?
I doubt Russia will lift any reverse sanctions until all have gone against Russia.
Much of this 'sanctions' stuff is a soundbite I think. For example, imagine if it were you and I (as governments), I might put a sanction that says you are barred from Wales, and you one on me saying I cant go to Winnipeg. But as you never planned to go to Wales, or me to Winnepeg, you and I don't really care. But we can both bleat to the media how we imposed sanctions.
The ones on food and trade are the ones that matter in the EU. EU companies are hurting because of it and they are asking their politicians why they are putting the interests of Ukraine and America before local ones. And they have a valid point in asking that.
If we were Polish apple farmers who sold most of our produce to Russia quite happily for the last 20 years, its a hard sell by our politicians, as we go bankrupt, to explain that they are doing the bidding of the US and we should be terribly concerned about Donbass. We wouldn't really give a rats ass about that. We want to sell apples. And we wont vote for someone who supports the prevention of that.
Merkel has the same issue now with VW, who have factories in Russia, and others who do business in Russia. They are screaming that she is a bitch of the US while German business struggles on the back of it. Those companies need to earn money to pay the taxes that the German government will use to bail out Spain and Portugal.
Like Putin said months ago, its all interconnected and you can not alienate Russia and expect no consequences at home.
The big issue with all this is that the US is trumpeting this stuff, but they are not stepping in to fill the trade gap left by the loss of Russia. So there is no upside to this for many EU countries. Polish apple farmers dont really care what Obama or Jen Psaki have to say......
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Yes, the term of the existing sanctions has been extended by six months. No new sanctions. It seems that Greece and Finland refused to accept any additional sanctions and Greece insisted on some language changes in the final document.
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Manny I get all of that, it/you have explained it many times.
But did Putin not say his sanctions were in place for X amount of time
regardless of what the west does? You read more of his stuff than most,
Has Putin stated anywhere, that he will drop his sanctions if the EU does?
In other words the EU could drop the sanctions, Putin still may not.
With him one can never be sure, if he feels it has a bigger point to prove,
he could continue and more or less say I warned you/ told you so.
Then the EU looks like even bigger fools and very weak, yes?
In other words, you did this because of Russia's involvement in Ukraine,
regardless of supporting the US, if they back away with no changes from Russia,
does this not make them look even weaker than the Obama you so often portray?
Also does Putin not respect strength? Its all a very fine line.
Also these other countries want the support of Nato/ US in times of trouble,
they need to becareful also, yes?
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http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3329116-ukraine-russia-backed-rebels-overrun-town-east.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3328772-eu-to-extend-existing-russia-sanctions-ukraine.html#.1258-stage-hero1-4
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Are some people getting a little confused by the different meanings of the words 'extend' and 'expand'? These words are not synonyms!
The EU had been wanting to extend the term of the sanctions and expand their scope, that is to add new ones. Some EU members objected and the comprise reached was to extend the term of existing sanctions by just 6 months and to 'study' the possibility of adding new ones in the future.
While Russia set the term of their retaliatory sanctions at 12 months they can, of course, do as they choose. Given their imposition after those of their 'partners' they can wait and see what to do.
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According to Alexander Koffman, the self proclaimed foreign minister for the pro-Russian separatist group the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR), independence groups in Texas, that's the state of Texas, USA, support independence for Donetsk.
http://www.newsweek.com/pro-russian-rebel-says-donetsk-peoples-republic-has-full-support-texas-303341
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The only real winner here is China - able to buy Russian Oil and Gaz and Natural Resources at below bargain basement prices for the foreseeable future until such time as the UK, EU and FSU decide to stop committing economic sepaku...
Well USA also benefits as the EU are desperate to offset losses from losing Russia as a customer - pretty much leaves the USA and perhaps a few 3rd world markets to offset the EU-RU mutual financial suicide pacts. Ironically USA has negligible trade with Russia and is a major beneficiary of low natural resources prices.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/morgan-stanley-thinks-russias-doomed-211029061.html
Morgan Stanley has a short message for Russia: you're doomed.
This past week hasn't been easy for the Russian economy: on Thursday, the EU foreign ministers decided to extend the sanctions on Russia by six months. Additionally, the Central Bank slashed interest rates to 15% down from 17% after the economy deteriorated following the rate hike in December.
But Morgan Stanley is out with a pretty scary forecast, too.
"We downgrade 2015 growth from -1.7%Y to -5.6%Y and revise our 2016 growth from a mild (0.8%Y) recovery to a 2.5%Y recession," writes Morgan Stanley's Alina Slyusarchuk. "The key new assumption that triggers the revision is the signifcantly weaker oil price, combined with a tighter policy response. At the same time, we see risks to our call as being titled to the downside, given the enhanced risk of further sanctions, and concerns over increased state control over the economy."
Unless there's a rebound in oil prices or western-imposed sanction, Morgan Stanley highlights three risks:
"We see the implementation risk that 'top-down' stabilization is undermined by special deals to help particular banks and companies" — weakening the ruble and driving inflation.
Further potential sanctions on Russia "might trigger rating downgrades and index exclusion, which would drive another wave of capital outflows" — again weakening the ruble and driving inflation.
The government might finally introduce capital controls.
Now here's the scariest part of the latest Morgan Stanley report: Although initially analysts and Russian politicians alike were likening the current economic crisis in Russia to that of 2009, the latest Morgan Stanley note suggests this one is could be much more severe.
"Looking ahead, barring a strong rebound in oil prices or the lifting of sanctions, we see the recession lasting much longer through 2016, unlike the V-Shaped rebound in 2009, particularly given the rising risk of further sanctions," Slyusarchuk writes.
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Peace talks break down. What a surprise!
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2015/01/ukraine-peace-talks-break-acrimony-150131184330331.html
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
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According to Alexander Koffman, the self proclaimed foreign minister for the pro-Russian separatist group the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR), independence groups in Texas, that's the state of Texas, USA, support independence for Donetsk.
http://www.newsweek.com/pro-russian-rebel-says-donetsk-peoples-republic-has-full-support-texas-303341
He is probably talking to the fringe groups of Mexicans calling for Aztlan :laugh:
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
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they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA.
Were you also behind the democratically elected Yanukovich? :coffeeread:
Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
You mean morale. But you are wrong anyway. We are seeing the country split in two and the argument now is only where the border will lie. There will be no 'victory' for Kiev in Novorossiya.
UA needs more support from the west
Look how that has worked out up to now. Hardly ideal is it? What Ukraine needed all along is for the west to stay out of it. Had they have done so, 800k people wouldn't be displaced in Russia and 5000 others would still be alive. But in went America with flags and cookies.......
Really, turn off that CNN and Fox. Its only confusing you.
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/02/world/us-taking-a-fresh-look-at-arming-kiev-forces.html?referrer=
Don, you might get what you want
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Really, turn off that CNN and Fox. Its only confusing you.
I don't tune into CNN unless its for a documentary, and Fox, I'm not too sure its even on my sat schedule. I do watch some RT, I find it provides a take on reality like no other broadcaster can. And lethal aid will be arriving, its only a matter of time before the border is restored.
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I've finally decided I don't have any answers. I'm just going to watch and act in enlightened self interest.
At least now I'll fit in with every person/country/non-state player in Ukraine.
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
Your sounding more like that mad prime minister they have every day Arseniy Yatsenyuk next thing you will be telling us is that Russia invaded Germany in ww2 :laugh:
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Next stage will be a secession of the Western oblasts from the rest of the country. That'll leave Novorossia, then a central region that includes Kiev and then the western region. As I wrote yonks ago the country will devolve into warlord run enclaves where the current geographically centered oligarchs run the territories. The army is already showing signs of it with Kolmoiski's setting up of a separate command structure for the forces he controls. Already the National Guard and proper military are ceasing to coordinate their actions.
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
Your sounding more like that mad prime minister they have every day Arseniy Yatsenyuk next thing you will be telling us is that Russia invaded Germany in ww2 :laugh:
I thought I would just project my thoughts as facts like [derogatory term removed] does. And Sparky, Russian army did invade Germany. The facts are clearly laid out in the books for the past 7 decades, with plenty of film footage to back it up.
Canada and the US are putting more effort into UA weekly, they will not let this aggression by Russian forces to go on much longer. With a Ukrainian population here in Canada around 1.4 million, there simply are too many votes to not act.
Europe will do what they have done best since WW1, and that is let the rest of the world mop up their mess. Once the young dead Russians forces return in body bags by the truck load, Putin will have no way to keep RF citizens from knowing that they weren't really on holidays after all.
With the Russian economy in recession with no end in sight, and a losing battle in UA, he may decide to hold an election and Dmitry Medvedev will be appointed the new president.
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
Your sounding more like that mad prime minister they have every day Arseniy Yatsenyuk next thing you will be telling us is that Russia invaded Germany in ww2 :laugh:
I thought I would just project my thoughts as facts like [derogatory term removed] does. And Sparky, Russian army did invade Germany. The facts are clearly laid out in the books for the past 7 decades, with plenty of film footage to back it up.
Canada and the US are putting more effort into UA weekly, they will not let this aggression by Russian forces to go on much longer. With a Ukrainian population here in Canada around 1.4 million, there simply are too many votes to not act.
Europe will do what they have done best since WW1, and that is let the rest of the world mop up their mess. Once the young dead Russians forces return in body bags by the truck load, Putin will have no way to keep RF citizens from knowing that they weren't really on holidays after all.
With the Russian economy in recession with no end in sight, and a losing battle in UA, he may decide to hold an election and Dmitry Medvedev will be appointed the new president.
You are too funny
:chuckle:
The inaccuracies in what you right are glaring in their own right ;D
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
Your sounding more like that mad prime minister they have every day Arseniy Yatsenyuk next thing you will be telling us is that Russia invaded Germany in ww2 :laugh:
Europe will do what they have done best since WW1, and that is let the rest of the world mop up their mess. Once the young dead Russians forces return in body bags by the truck load, Putin will have no way to keep RF citizens from knowing that they weren't really on holidays after all.
Never underestimate the Russian propaganda machine. They'll find a way to cover things up. They've got plenty of practice with sweeping things under the rug even from their own citizens.
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http://www/
The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
Your sounding more like that mad prime minister they have every day Arseniy Yatsenyuk next thing you will be telling us is that Russia invaded Germany in ww2 :laugh:
Europe will do what they have done best since WW1, and that is let the rest of the world mop up their mess. Once the young dead Russians forces return in body bags by the truck load, Putin will have no way to keep RF citizens from knowing that they weren't really on holidays after all.
Never underestimate the Russian propaganda machine. They'll find a way to cover things up. They've got plenty of practice with sweeping things under the rug even from their own citizens.
One would think in this day and age of mobile phones with cams, and many cars with dash cams,it would be impossible for thousands of Russian troops to not be shown all over the Internet.
You can't film what's not there. (:)
Well maybe you can?
http://www.tatoott1009.com/2014/03/09/u-s-deploys-new-sky-dreadnought-over-ukraine-media-calls-it-ufo-wow-really/
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No Tom, you see the Russian troops only go to Novorossia for vacations, they are not there to fight - just as the Ukrainian military leadership have been saying recently.
In order to make sure that nobody gets the wrong idea the Russian soldiers all wear the new Russian invisibility cloaks and never, ever go near to the front lines or use any kind of weaponry.
Apparently there's between 6 and 9,000 Russian troops on vacation on Novorossia at the moment and all invisible.
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The view from the Ukrainian side, they're screwed!
When it's all said and done Ukraine will have lost a large chunk of prime real estate, lost many lives, and be no better off.
The economic war against Russia is talking center stage,as Ukraine is now just a casualty.
Six more months of sanctions will be far more devastating on Ukraine ,than it will be for Russia..
Tom I am not a betting man, but would I be correct in guessing that your new bride search has you pigeon holed in Russia only?
As I've stated before UA needs more support from the west, they need weapons and they need to know that we are fully behind the democratically elected government of UA. Once the moral of the UA troops is raised, victory is assured.
Your sounding more like that mad prime minister they have every day Arseniy Yatsenyuk next thing you will be telling us is that Russia invaded Germany in ww2 :laugh:
I thought I would just project my thoughts as facts like [derogatory term removed] does. And Sparky, Russian army did invade Germany. The facts are clearly laid out in the books for the past 7 decades, with plenty of film footage to back it up.
Canada and the US are putting more effort into UA weekly, they will not let this aggression by Russian forces to go on much longer. With a Ukrainian population here in Canada around 1.4 million, there simply are too many votes to not act.
Europe will do what they have done best since WW1, and that is let the rest of the world mop up their mess. Once the young dead Russians forces return in body bags by the truck load, Putin will have no way to keep RF citizens from knowing that they weren't really on holidays after all.
With the Russian economy in recession with no end in sight, and a losing battle in UA, he may decide to hold an election and Dmitry Medvedev will be appointed the new president.
You are too funny
:chuckle:
The inaccuracies in what you right are glaring in their own right ;D
I'd be willing to read your counter argument to my post.
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Interesting articles:
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-run-miserable-jews-rebel-chief-202600090.html
http://www.newsweek.com/putins-biggest-critics-announce-100000-strong-russian-spring-protest-303764
http://news.yahoo.com/bravado-disbelief-greet-ukraine-rebel-call-184944217.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/video/putin-economic-fix-russia-bread-130949215.html
http://endthelie.com/2015/02/02/half-russia-expects-full-scale-war-ukraine-poll-shows/
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hey look at video of Russian tourist in ukraine and listen to his story then tell me he was not there to fight.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/rebels-suffer-heavy-losses-battle-ukraines-debaltseve-n296841
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hey look at video of Russian tourist in ukraine and listen to his story then tell me he was not there to fight.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/rebels-suffer-heavy-losses-battle-ukraines-debaltseve-n296841
Texan77,
Many Ukrainians live and work in Russia, just as many Russians live and work in Ukraine.
Nothing in the video indicates the man was regular Russian military. :coffeeread:
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No not regular russian army, russian tourist. Note he said home to Russia not ukraine.
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hey look at video of Russian tourist in ukraine and listen to his story then tell me he was not there to fight.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/rebels-suffer-heavy-losses-battle-ukraines-debaltseve-n296841
Texan77,
Many Ukrainians live and work in Russia, just as many Russians live and work in Ukraine.
Nothing in the video indicates the man was regular Russian military. :coffeeread:
Tom Cat you're making my point for me. With all the traffic between Russia and Ukraine especially using separatist controlled border crossing it would be simple for Russia to sneak a few thousand or more Russian military personnel into Ukraine dressed and equipped as separatists.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30518054
There are Russian profeccional militaries as well in Donetsk and Lugansk.
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No Tom, you see the Russian troops only go to Novorossia for vacations, they are not there to fight - just as the Ukrainian military leadership have been saying recently.
In order to make sure that nobody gets the wrong idea the Russian soldiers all wear the new Russian invisibility cloaks and never, ever go near to the front lines or use any kind of weaponry.
Apparently there's between 6 and 9,000 Russian troops on vacation on Novorossia at the moment and all invisible.
Are you dating yourself Andrew?
Novorussia existed until 1917,ending with the fall of the Russian Empire?
Certainly the areas in conflict are well within an independent country, Ukraine's, international borders.
Perhaps you can do the millions of Ukrainians living there, the courtesy of refereeing to it as UKRAINE,
however novorussia may make it more palatable for
you?
I suppose the French within the south and west part of the US should become disgruntled with politics of the country, decide to separate and we will just call
that entire half of the US Louisiana.
Not to mention those french separatists would suddenly have the skill set and funds to operate military operations, and tanks.
As far as who is actually fighting,whomever it may be , whether actual Russian troops or not, lets not be so silly as to pretend that the average disgruntled citizen of the region has the ability ,funds and training, to take on any countries , including Ukraine's, regular military units.The simple fact they can operate, shows otherwise.
It seems you've shown a tendency to both rename sections of countries to suit your view, and also to seemingly view international borders and nuclear agreements as merely guidelines.
You'd make a great Pirate!!
:hidechair:
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/
"Some in the West are concerned that provision of military assistance, particularly of lethal arms, would cause Russia to escalate the crisis," the report concedes. "We vehemently disagree."
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AJ, because it is easy to confuse people, particularly those with a disdain for learning it makes sense to use terminology that clarifies rather than confuses.
Novorossia is the term used by the stakeholders in the conflict to differentiate between the region of Ukraine that has been carved out by the people who no longer give allegiance to the current government in Kiev and so I use it. If this is confusing for you, well, it is hard to make things more simple and I refuse to write down to the lowest common denominator.
If the current usage of the term is unfamiliar to you then I can only suggest that you have not been keeping up and urge you to improve your knowledge.
I hope this helps. ;)
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Westcoast and others, when the leaders of the Ukrainian armed forces are saying that there are no Russian forces in Ukraine, apart from those invited in by them, then you can be pretty sure that there are no Russian troops deployed in the region.
Read my post above for clarification, because it sure as shit would suit the US leadership to be able to point a finger and say 'HEY -There they are!' They have not, are not and will not do so because they can't do so.
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Westcoast and others, when the leaders of the Ukrainian armed forces are saying that there are no Russian forces in Ukraine, apart from those invited in by them, then you can be pretty sure that there are no Russian troops deployed in the region.
Read my post above for clarification, because it sure as shit would suit the US leadership to be able to point a finger and say 'HEY -There they are!' They have not, are not and will not do so because they can't do so.
Since you provided no links I'm assuming it's BS you made up.
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Westcoast and others, when the leaders of the Ukrainian armed forces are saying that there are no Russian forces in Ukraine, apart from those invited in by them, then you can be pretty sure that there are no Russian troops deployed in the region.
Read my post above for clarification, because it sure as shit would suit the US leadership to be able to point a finger and say 'HEY -There they are!' They have not, are not and will not do so because they can't do so.
I asked for clarification on these absurd comments and got a lesson in assumption.
1. Please respond with what leader or leaders said there are no Russian forces in Ukraine.
2. Please respond with who invited any Russian military forces into Ukraine.
Hopefully some factual links without assumptions. And what the US and Europe say has little to do with anything. They accuse and do enough for countries that are afraid of getting into a third world war.
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AJ, because it is easy to confuse people, particularly those with a disdain for learning it makes sense to use terminology that clarifies rather than confuses.
Novorossia is the term used by the stakeholders in the conflict to differentiate between the region of Ukraine that has been carved out by the people who no longer give allegiance to the current government in Kiev and so I use it. If this is confusing for you, well, it is hard to make things more simple and I refuse to write down to the lowest common denominator.
It's a silly justification - to use a word used only by one side in the conflict, and an invented, propoganda word at that.
Use of such words, whether "Novorossiya", "Jap-bashing" (a phrase invented by American PR firm Hill and Knowlton while in the employ of the Japanese government), "Kiev junta" - always demonstrates to me a level of unthinking on the part of the person using it.
It's always the other guy that is "confused" when you use improper terms, innit?
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AJ, because it is easy to confuse people, particularly those with a disdain for learning it makes sense to use terminology that clarifies rather than confuses.
Novorossia is the term used by the stakeholders in the conflict to differentiate between the region of Ukraine that has been carved out by the people who no longer give allegiance to the current government in Kiev and so I use it. If this is confusing for you, well, it is hard to make things more simple and I refuse to write down to the lowest common denominator.
If the current usage of the term is unfamiliar to you then I can only suggest that you have not been keeping up and urge you to improve your knowledge.
I hope this helps. ;)
So , you feel people have a disdain for learning when they don't agree with your view.
Here , I thought they were simply lazy in cognition or un-thinkers?
Your entire post is simply a bunch of condescending babble to justify clouding the issue, by renaming a section of a sovereign independent nation, with internationally recognized borders.
Of course rebels within any conflict generally use such tactics, and mentality.It's a shame you feel the need to try and give it legitimacy.
I note you still havn't addressed how those
regular Ukrainian citizens within the region whom are unhappy with their countries leadership,are suddenly affluent enough to hire military, or are themselves militarily capable, in fact more capable than their own countries standing military.
They simply did not become such , without a lot more than just a instruction manual for the equipment on hand or supplied,and everyone knows it.
I easily recognize US involvement and meddling in any region they feel in their benefit.They can be as guilty as starting this , or continuing it, as you wish to portray.
Nor is it unusual for foreign countries to be involved, it's the norm , not the exception, in conflicts.
To think it's one sided *meddling* in this case, is beyond naive. I'd assume you arn't that foolish, but you've proven to be in the past.
In the future you really should keep your foolish condescension in check.You are sharp enough to understand it belittles you, not others.
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Use of such words, whether "Novorossiya", "Jap-bashing" (a phrase invented by American PR firm Hill and Knowlton while in the employ of the Japanese government), "Kiev junta" - always demonstrates to me a level of unthinking on the part of the person using it.
Quite wrong.
You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
And if you look up what is a junta, you will see that the definition 1 fits perfectly the junta in Kiev: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/junta
These are factual terms you personally dislike. It doesn't demonstrate unthinking.
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Reality is many innocent people will die.
If rebels would have accepted peace agreement and
more control, which was that originally wanted ( ya right)
Seems so here take joy as the Russian backed rebels roll into
new towns, with modern equipment, hiding behind people
to shoot at military.
But I did it again, :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Use of such words, whether "Novorossiya", "Jap-bashing" (a phrase invented by American PR firm Hill and Knowlton while in the employ of the Japanese government), "Kiev junta" - always demonstrates to me a level of unthinking on the part of the person using it.
Quite wrong.
You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
And if you look up what is a junta, you will see that the definition 1 fits perfectly the junta in Kiev: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/junta
From your link:
a small group ruling a country, especially immediately after a coup d'état and before a legally constituted government has been instituted.
Internationally recognised elections were held, so a legally constituted government was installed. Hence your definition does not apply.
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Use of such words, whether "Novorossiya", "Jap-bashing" (a phrase invented by American PR firm Hill and Knowlton while in the employ of the Japanese government), "Kiev junta" - always demonstrates to me a level of unthinking on the part of the person using it.
Quite wrong.
You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
And if you look up what is a junta, you will see that the definition 1 fits perfectly the junta in Kiev: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/junta
These are factual terms you personally dislike. It doesn't demonstrate unthinking.
Did they remove the currently-elected people in the Rada / Parliament? No, the representatives were not removed and parliament was not dissolved.
Did they have new elections, of no more nor less validity and corruption than what got Yanukovich into power? Yes.
Remove your mouth from Putin's perineum, it might assist you in getting more oxygen to your brain.
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Manny ,from your wiki link-
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.
The only one I see is the old definition from pre 1917.
There maybe a new entry? but FWIW that link did not go to one.
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An explanation from a German source as to how Russian tanks are able to evade being recorded by Ukrainians, Satellites or OSCE observers. Sorry, it is in German.
If I understood correctly there's also some info in respect of the MH-17 shooting and how the visual evidence of machine gun fire on the fuselage is actually a confirmation of the plane having been shot down by a ground launched missile.
Interesting stuff.
http://amr.amronline.de/2014/12/29/das-ist-putins-teuflischer-tarnpanzer/
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Manny ,from your wiki link-
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.
The only one I see is the old definition from pre 1917.
There maybe a new entry? but FWIW that link did not go to one.
Looks like a bracket got lost: >>Link<< (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation))
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Did they remove the currently-elected people in the Rada / Parliament? No, the representatives were not removed and parliament was not dissolved.
Current Ukrainian law was not followed when Yanukovich was removed from power, so between yanukovich and poroshenko there was indeed a 'junta' ruling the people.
Did they have new elections, of no more nor less validity and corruption than what got Yanukovich into power? Yes.
Less valid, because 3 oblasts that Kiev claims authority over did not vote. Thats 12% of people NOT ALLOWED to vote.
Still junta i see.
Remove your mouth from Putin's perineum, it might assist you in getting more oxygen to your brain.
I can say the same to you. Please get some oxygen, western propaganda is getting to you.
Do Ukrainians know Poroshenkos rule is invalid? Probably not,
Does Putin? HELL YES
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You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
So will it be called Novo Novorussia, or will they drop one novo (new) to give it better flow?
Markje, if the UA citizens ousted the past president, and held an election to vote a new guy in, that isn't democracy? There is no army running the show, no clans of gangsters, what people could vote, did. How were the election officials going to go about setting up polling stations in a war zone? How would they run a voting station when violence is present? They would of been killed, and you should know that.
I agree its hardly a perfect vote they had, but it was observed around the world as legit. It was the best they could do at the time. I didn't read anything with regards to ballot stuffing like we saw in the Crimea election. I hear things are not going very smooth with the transition, its a real bitch not having any roads leading to your seized property.
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Manny ,from your wiki link-
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.
The only one I see is the old definition from pre 1917.
There maybe a new entry? but FWIW that link did not go to one.
Looks like a bracket got lost: >>Link<< (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation))
Yes , a bracket was simply lost.
It does state pretty clearly that it is not a recognized area by any country, only self proclaimed by the separatists.
President Valery Kaurov
was elected how?
The supreme legislative authority of Novorossiya would be the People's Soviet, formed on the basis of nomination by the Soviets of People's Representatives or labour groups. Representatives will be held accountable to the head of the People's Soviet, elected from among its members. The executive body of Novorossiya is the cabinet, which is formed by its president and approved by the People's Soviet.
When were these Soviets of peoples representatives (:)
or labour groups organized and collected for voting?
but it is just wiki..
This seems a rosey glasses hope of return to the Soviet tradition, which I have seen a lot of the older folk feel is better.
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You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
So will it be called Novo Novorussia, or will they drop one novo (new) to give it better flow?
Markje, if the UA citizens ousted the past president, and held an election to vote a new guy in, that isn't democracy? There is no army running the show, no clans of gangsters, what people could vote, did. How were the election officials going to go about setting up polling stations in a war zone? How would they run a voting station when violence is present? they would of been killed, and you should know that.
I agree its hardly a perfect vote they had, but it was observed around the world as legit. It was the best they could do at the time. I didn't read anything with regards to ballot stuffing like we saw in the Crimea election. I hear things are not going very smooth with the transition, its a real bitch not having any roads leading to your seized property.
They're working on it. :chuckle:
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Use of such words, whether "Novorossiya", "Jap-bashing" (a phrase invented by American PR firm Hill and Knowlton while in the employ of the Japanese government), "Kiev junta" - always demonstrates to me a level of unthinking on the part of the person using it.
Quite wrong.
You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
No, it doesn't exist now. Read the article you linked to. It says:
Novorossiya or New Russia (Russian: Новороссия, Novorossiya; Ukrainian: Новоросія, Novorosiya), also referred to as the Union of People's Republics (Russian: Союз Народных Республик, Soyuz Narodnykh Respublik; Ukrainian: Союз Народних Республік, Soyuz Narodnykh Respublik), is a proposed confederation of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic and Lugansk People's Republic in eastern Ukraine, both of which share a border with Russia. The name "Novorossiya", which translates literally as "New Russia", expresses a political goal as well as simultaneously making a reference to the corresponding historical region .
The two self-proclaimed Republics are not recognized by any country and are classified by Ukraine as terrorist organizations.[3] The creation of Novorossiya was declared on 22 May 2014 and agreements were signed between the leaders of the two self-proclaimed republics on 24 May.[1][4] On 24 June, leaders from both groups' "Supreme Soviet" declared the merger of their constitutions, and the creation of Novorossiya as a confederate "Union of People's Republics".[5] About 3-3.09 million people live in the self-proclaimed people's republics controlled areas combined; more than 1 million residents have been displaced and more than 4,000 killed so far according to the UN.[6][7]
The self-declared confederation was not recognized by any state. On January 1, 2015, former Donetsk Republic Prime Minister Alexander Borodai, who resigned on 7 August 2014,[8][9] stated that "there is no Novorossiya" and that the proposed state was a "dream that was not brought to life" and called it a false start.[10] However, the armed forces of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republic do operate in a loosely united command or alliance called the United Armed Forces of Novorossiya.
Note what the Wikipedia article says. It says Novorossiya is a 'proposed confederation'. Also states ' On January 1, 2015, former Donetsk Republic Prime Minister Alexander Borodai, who resigned on 7 August 2014,[8][9] stated that "there is no Novorossiya" and that the proposed state was a "dream that was not brought to life" and called it a false start.'
Novorossiya does not exist according to high ranking Donetsk officials.
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Interesting article about proposals from Ukrainian oligarchs, through their Rada mouthpieces proposing a referendum in Ukraine with a simple question: whether or not to continue the war against Novorossia. Basically the idea is that if the people vote to continue then continue the war the government will - for as long as they can afford to do so. If not then Novorossia will be given its independence.
OK, the rationale is clear here - the oligarchs are going to be expected to start tipping up for the costs of the war and so they are looking for alternatives but polls show that Ukrainians, as a whole, are against the war and the current mobilisation has failed, quite spectacularly.
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2015/02/03_a_6399025.shtml
If Poroshenko were to go for this it'd save his presidency and avert the coming coup and also would enable money to flow into the country.
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http://novorossia.today/
Site with current events. :coffeeread:
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Interesting article about proposals from Ukrainian oligarchs, through their Rada mouthpieces proposing a referendum in Ukraine with a simple question: whether or not to continue the war against Novorossia. Basically the idea is that if the people vote to continue then continue the war the government will - for as long as they can afford to do so. If not then Novorossia will be given its independence.
OK, the rationale is clear here - the oligarchs are going to be expected to start tipping up for the costs of the war and so they are looking for alternatives but polls show that Ukrainians, as a whole, are against the war and the current mobilisation has failed, quite spectacularly.
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2015/02/03_a_6399025.shtml
If Poroshenko were to go for this it'd save his presidency and avert the coming coup and also would enable money to flow into the country.
Considering the pro Russian rebels are not stoping, exactly what would they give them?
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Some people here are still trying to suggest that there was no coup last year and that the junta and successive government were and are legitimate.
Those people were, of course wrong and remain so today. Even after Obama's admission last weekend in his CNN interview some sillies are still making the same claims. :'(
Anyway, here is a rather old piece written shortly after the coup that addresses the legal issues relating to the events of the overthrow of the elected incumbent. No mention is made of the machinations of the US or EU, simply the legality of the manner by which the junta seized power.
https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/
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Some people here are still trying to suggest that there was no coup last year and that the junta and successive government were and are legitimate.
Those people were, of course wrong and remain so today. Even after Obama's admission last weekend in his CNN interview some sillies are still making the same claims. :'(
Anyway, here is a rather old piece written shortly after the coup that addresses the legal issues relating to the events of the overthrow of the elected incumbent. No mention is made of the machinations of the US or EU, simply the legality of the manner by which the junta seized power.
https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/
Yes and some silly people are still suggesting, Russia is not involved :chuckle:
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Some people here are still trying to suggest that there was no coup last year and that the junta and successive government were and are legitimate.
Those people were, of course wrong and remain so today. Even after Obama's admission last weekend in his CNN interview some sillies are still making the same claims. :'(
Anyway, here is a rather old piece written shortly after the coup that addresses the legal issues relating to the events of the overthrow of the elected incumbent. No mention is made of the machinations of the US or EU, simply the legality of the manner by which the junta seized power.
https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/
As evidence you're using some anonymous guy's blog? He only has 2 months of posts, ending in March, 2014. Are you really that desperate that you've sunk to using anonymous blogs as evidence?
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http://novorossia.today/
Site with current events. :coffeeread:
Site with the rebels (interesting choice of flag) view of current events.
They are reporting themselves as attacking on all fronts, quite the group of hardy, disgruntled, civi's!
FWIW- I have never held the position that the current Ukrainian government was elected properly.
I simply fail to see how the separatists political leaders
are any more legit though, and seem to see a great deal of side stepping by those who hold that position.
Ukraine had very corrupted leaders prior, still do, and nothing out of the conflicted Donbass region, which were entirely corrupt prior, is likely to be any better.
More spin doctoring by net pundits wont fix it either.
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Will the real Fascist please step forward...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
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http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-readying-a-massive-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-golts-says/
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http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-readying-a-massive-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-golts-says/
If Russia openly invades Ukraine, even in the Donbass region held by separatists the value of the ruble will drop. It's currently at about 65 rubles to 1 USD. If Russia openly invades, IMHO it will drop to 100 rubles to 1 USD or worse.
Sanctions that might have been eased in the coming months will be toughened, probably much worse. Banning Russia from SWIFT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interbank_Financial_Telecommunication) is a definite possibility. Banning Russia from SWIFT would be disastrous for the current Russian economy. It would make a recession a certainty. There are much worse things the US and EU could do to make life in Russia even worse than it currently is.
IMHO Putin would have to be a fool to openly invade Ukraine. Continuing with his current strategy of stealth warfare with the Russian military has worked and might continue to work for months or even years to come if properly managed.
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Markje, if the UA citizens ousted the past president, and held an election to vote a new guy in, that isn't democracy? There is no army running the show, no clans of gangsters, what people could vote, did. How were the election officials going to go about setting up polling stations in a war zone? How would they run a voting station when violence is present? They would of been killed, and you should know that.
If only it were the UA citizens. But it was hardly a handfull that were protesting in Kiev. Yanukovich already said elections were coming in May (2 months after he was forcefully ousted) back in December. Was it really so hard to wait 2 months and see?
If the population wanted him gone, Ukrainian law allows the RADA to legally get rid of him. Neither of all options was followed, so apparently they didn't want to follow the law.
I agree its hardly a perfect vote they had, but it was observed around the world as legit. It was the best they could do at the time. I didn't read anything with regards to ballot stuffing like we saw in the Crimea election. I hear things are not going very smooth with the transition, its a real bitch not having any roads leading to your seized property.
Because it fits their political agenda. Not because it was a legitimate vote. Any democracy should cry foul about how/what happened in Ukraine. That they didn't is more telling about OUR democracy, than about their legal or illegal elections.
I have decided I won't vote anymore in the Netherlands. Its a sham that should not be encouraged in any way.
Mark.
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Westcoast, if you are unable to learn the nothing can help you. The number of posts is irrelevant. If you want to argue against the case made then how about you go, as he did, to the Ukrainian constitution and law as well as the parliamentary record.
Is what he wrote incorrect?
No, it isn't.
Unless you know otherwise, in which case show us the law citations and the parliamentary record to support your case.
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You are seeing the creation of a new Novorossiya. But it certainly exists now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)
So will it be called Novo Novorussia, or will they drop one novo (new) to give it better flow?
Markje, if the UA citizens ousted the past president, and held an election to vote a new guy in, that isn't democracy? There is no army running the show, no clans of gangsters, what people could vote, did. How were the election officials going to go about setting up polling stations in a war zone? How would they run a voting station when violence is present? They would of been killed, and you should know that.
I agree its hardly a perfect vote they had, but it was observed around the world as legit. It was the best they could do at the time. I didn't read anything with regards to ballot stuffing like we saw in the Crimea election. I hear things are not going very smooth with the transition, its a real bitch not having any roads leading to your seized property.
Last first, where was ballot stuffing in Crimea? You are probably recalling an article written by some Russian woman who it turns out was not in Crimea during the referendum and who based her report upon interviews with people who similarly had not been present at the polling.
Politically Novorossia is a million miles away from Russia. The economic system they are setting up is not compatible with that of Russia. Whether the system they employ is practical in the longer term will not be known for a while but one thing is certain, the Novorossians do not see their future as being part of Russia - if they saw it as being so then they'd not be building the architecture of state in the way that they are.
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Westcoast, if you are unable to learn the nothing can help you. The number of posts is irrelevant. If you want to argue against the case made then how about you go, as he did, to the Ukrainian constitution and law as well as the parliamentary record.
Is what he wrote incorrect?
No, it isn't.
Unless you know otherwise, in which case show us the law citations and the parliamentary record to support your case.
Andrew you truly are that desperate that you're using an anonymous person's blog, as evidence. You make stuff up (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20984.msg396520#msg396520) and use an inactive and anonymous blog (https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/) as evidence. Pathetic.
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Westcoast, if you are unable to learn the nothing can help you. The number of posts is irrelevant. If you want to argue against the case made then how about you go, as he did, to the Ukrainian constitution and law as well as the parliamentary record.
Is what he wrote incorrect?
No, it isn't.
Unless you know otherwise, in which case show us the law citations and the parliamentary record to support your case.
Andrew you truly are that desperate that you're using an anonymous person's blog, as evidence. You make stuff up (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20984.msg396520#msg396520) and use an inactive and anonymous blog (https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/) as evidence. Pathetic.
Andrew didn't make this stuff up , I posted ages ago my wife said the same. And she's not an anonymous blog poster, she used to be a lawyer in Ukraine. Law was not followed. Therefore Yanukovichs impeachment was illegal!
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Westcoast you old duffer, if you don't agree with the facts then tell us what is wrong. Tell us which parts of the law were wrongly interpreted, tell us which parts of the constitution enabled the coup to be legitimate. Tell us how the case made was incorrect.
The facts are the important thing, not the source. There's plenty of other sources, the guy linked to several of 'em but your lazy self could not be arsed to look. The writer though made a succinct case well, that's why I linked to it, easy enough for even someone like you to read - except that, as usual, you were simply too lazy to do so.
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Andrew, you know already his tactic is to rubbish any source.
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There have been some people here who still are under the impression that the Russian army is in Ukraine. Even though nobody, anywhere, has shown any concrete evidence of this.
A couple of days ago I wrote that even the Ukrainian military chiefs do not think the Russian army is present and folks still scoffed. Well, here is a Ukrainian source, not the only one, for the statement from Armed Forces Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Victor Muzhenko: http://www.5.ua/ato-na-shodi/myjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html?PageSpeed=noscript
For those for whom Ukrainian is not comprehensible here's the document in translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.5.ua%2Fato-na-shodi%2Fmyjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html%3FPageSpeed%3Dnoscript&edit-text=
For those who prefer a Russian slant on the story: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frussian.rt.com%2Finotv%2F2015-01-29%2FUkrainskij-genshtab-Rossijskaya-armiya-v&edit-text=
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Andrew, you know already his tactic is to rubbish any source.
True that! Highlighting his laziness never gets old!
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/why-is-ukraine-s-war-so-bloody-the-soviet-union-trained-both-sides.html
This war could become extremely bloody.
The sooner this comes to an end the better the outcome will be for all involved.
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Westcoast, if you are unable to learn the nothing can help you. The number of posts is irrelevant. If you want to argue against the case made then how about you go, as he did, to the Ukrainian constitution and law as well as the parliamentary record.
Is what he wrote incorrect?
No, it isn't.
Unless you know otherwise, in which case show us the law citations and the parliamentary record to support your case.
Andrew you truly are that desperate that you're using an anonymous person's blog, as evidence. You make stuff up (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20984.msg396520#msg396520) and use an inactive and anonymous blog (https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/) as evidence. Pathetic.
Andrew didn't make this stuff up , I posted ages ago my wife said the same. And she's not an anonymous blog poster, she used to be a lawyer in Ukraine. Law was not followed. Therefore Yanukovichs impeachment was illegal!
Markje would your wife, when she worked as a lawyer in Ukraine, go into court with information from an anonymous blogger's website as evidence? As for the law being followed or not being followed I can easily find just as much evidence to say the law was followed as anything Andrew has presented.
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There have been some people here who still are under the impression that the Russian army is in Ukraine. Even though nobody, anywhere, has shown any concrete evidence of this.
A couple of days ago I wrote that even the Ukrainian military chiefs do not think the Russian army is present and folks still scoffed. Well, here is a Ukrainian source, not the only one, for the statement from Armed Forces Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Victor Muzhenko: http://www.5.ua/ato-na-shodi/myjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html?PageSpeed=noscript
For those for whom Ukrainian is not comprehensible here's the document in translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.5.ua%2Fato-na-shodi%2Fmyjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html%3FPageSpeed%3Dnoscript&edit-text=
For those who prefer a Russian slant on the story: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frussian.rt.com%2Finotv%2F2015-01-29%2FUkrainskij-genshtab-Rossijskaya-armiya-v&edit-text=
According to your source and your Google translation:
Armed Forces General Staff has information about the participation of soldiers of the army of the Russian Federation in the conflict in eastern Ukraine.
This was announced during a briefing Armed Forces Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Victor Muzhenko.
"To date, we have only the involvement of some members of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Russian citizens as part of illegal armed groups in the fighting. Fighting units of the regular Russian army today we're also not. We have enough forces and means in order to inflict a final defeat even illegal armed formation "- he said.
This translation makes no sense. Try again.
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Andrew, you know already his tactic is to rubbish any source.
Manny isn't it your tactic that no western media sources are acceptable? Only officially Kremlin sanctioned media are acceptable. Isn't that your tactic?
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NATO claims Russian troops in side Ukraine and has satalite images to prove it. This link does not show images but show press release Nato is giving at ths time.
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Andrew, you know already his tactic is to rubbish any source.
Manny isn't it your tactic that no western media sources are acceptable? Only officially Kremlin sanctioned media are acceptable. Isn't that your tactic?
You are being silly again Westy.
Western media sources known to be propaganda channels or with their own agenda can be taken with a pinch of salt, especially when previously exposed knowingly lying as the BBC was in its coverage of Odessa. Similarly, one must keep in mind the source when reading Ukrainian or Russian channels.
I am happy to read all sources and take a view based on cumulative reading. Your tactic is to rubbish any source that doesn't agree with you as a "conspiracy site".
Not the same.
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NATO claims Russian troops in side Ukraine and has satalite images to prove it. This link does not show images but show press release Nato is giving at ths time.
NATO photos released in August.
http://aco.nato.int/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat-troops-inside-ukraine.aspx
Same photos as I posted Feb. 1
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=21499.msg396305#msg396305
Manny then went on to wonder why the US military uses commercial sources such as Digital Globe and why Google could get such clear detailed photos but NATO couldn't.
Oh Westy, Digital Globe? Really? Does the US not have its own satellites? :chuckle:
Those pictures show nothing. This was debunked months ago. Google earth shows better images. Is that the best they could do? Some blurry stuff nobody can identify from some private company designed for a hysterical compliant media to recycle?
You should investigate some more Westy. :coffeeread:
Ironically, it did not take long before the low-resolution images had been discredited as a propaganda stunt. The images were from the commercial satellite image provider Digital Globe. Moreover, the images showed a joint Russian – Ukrainian military exercise which had been held eight months earlier. The Russian General Staff responded, saying that “the images were taken some eight months before the stated date”. RIA Novosti quotes the General Staff official as saying:
“These shots, which were distributed by NATO, show Russian Armed Forces units in the Southern Military District, which in the summer of last year, were taking part in various drills, including near the Ukrainian border”.
This begs a number of questions, like why didn’t the U.S. State Department refute the statement that was issued by the Russian General Staff, but instead continued repeating the narrative that was based on the Digital Globe, commercial satellite images.
Hasn’t the USA access to better satellite images than those commercial, low-resolution photos? Or were low-resolution photos exactly what NATO’s and the Pentagon’s war planners had in mind as perfect, for pulling the wool over the eyes of the public?
http://nsnbc.me/2014/09/21/open-skies-vs-fakes-documenting-russian-troops-at-ukraines-borders-a-piece-of-cake/
Some of you lot will swallow any old tripe your government feeds you. >>Here<< (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Winnipeg,+MB,+Canada/@49.8528925,-97.1458681,227a,20y,270h,41.64t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x52ea73fbf91a2b11:0x2b2a1afac6b9ca64) is a random Google earth shot in Winnipeg. See the difference between that and the "NATO" images? Do you think NATO might be able to do better?
Take your time........
I had to tell him that the US military doesn't release its own photos for security reasons.
Also those crystal clear and detailed satellite photos that Google uses are really photos from airplanes not satellites. Poor Manny. He knows so much less than he thinks he does. :laugh:
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Last first, where was ballot stuffing in Crimea?
Proof of a shoddy run polling station. It starts at the 2:00 mark. Other journalists were forced to leave other polling stations.
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Politically Novorossia is a million miles away from Russia. The economic system they are setting up is not compatible with that of Russia. Whether the system they employ is practical in the longer term will not be known for a while but one thing is certain, the Novorossians do not see their future as being part of Russia - if they saw it as being so then they'd not be building the architecture of state in the way that they are.
I noticed this as well..
They do really seem to be catering back to Soviet days,, the Supreme Soviet etc.
Of course their hastily drafted by -laws seem less complete than most motorcycle clubs operating under Roberts rules of order.
In the end what they set up so far, is impressive in such short order.
I can't say i see their elected president as anymore legit than the Ukrainian election,and having been in thee region in the past its very hard to envision that it is preference of the majorities of ukrainian residents there.
About 1 million have been displaced so far by thre fighting?
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Last first, where was ballot stuffing in Crimea?
Proof of a shoddy run polling station. It starts at the 2:00 mark. Other journalists were forced to leave other polling stations.
Don's "proof" is one guy that seemed to put two papers in, and some Soviet music. :rolleye0009:
Intrepid reporting there by CNN. :chuckle:
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About 1 million have been displaced so far by thre fighting?
800,000 in Russia I recall reading recently. Which is the safest place in the region as Kiev cannot bomb Russia.
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I had to tell him that the US military doesn't release its own photos for security reasons.
Translation: No proof.
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I had to tell him that the US military doesn't release its own photos for security reasons.
Translation: No proof.
Proof's still there. The source is from a commercial satellite.
http://aco.nato.int/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat-troops-inside-ukraine.aspx#prettyPhoto
Manny what about those crystal clear and detailed Google photos you thought were actually shot from satellites? Manny how could you not know they were shot from airplanes?
Some of you lot will swallow any old tripe your government feeds you. >>Here<< (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Winnipeg,+MB,+Canada/@49.8528925,-97.1458681,227a,20y,270h,41.64t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x52ea73fbf91a2b11:0x2b2a1afac6b9ca64) is a random Google earth shot in Winnipeg. See the difference between that and the "NATO" images? Do you think NATO might be able to do better?
http://thevane.gawker.com/why-can-google-see-your-car-but-satellites-cant-clearl-1549549756
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http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/01/google-earth-shows-russians-crossed.html?m=1
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Last first, where was ballot stuffing in Crimea?
Proof of a shoddy run polling station. It starts at the 2:00 mark. Other journalists were forced to leave other polling stations.
Don's "proof" is one guy that seemed to put two papers in, and some Soviet music. :rolleye0009:
Intrepid reporting there by CNN. :chuckle:
You know my search skills are lacking. I just went on You Tube and looked at the first page in English, then I went and had a look. Weather its one extra ballot or a dozen, its still a failure on whoever was running this polling station. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with that would you Manny?
When you go to vote, do they not hand you your ballot, then you are witnessed dropping it into the box?
Or does the UK, a pillar of democracy throughout the world allow its voters to grab a few ballots, mark them, and plop them into the box completely unsupervised? Thought so.
Others are welcome to find other videos to show, I just can't be bothered spending the time on it.
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http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/08/zero-proof-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine.html
When you look at the facts, there is no clear evidence supports Russian military inside Ukraine.
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Last first, where was ballot stuffing in Crimea?
Proof of a shoddy run polling station. It starts at the 2:00 mark. Other journalists were forced to leave other polling stations.
Don's "proof" is one guy that seemed to put two papers in, and some Soviet music. :rolleye0009:
Intrepid reporting there by CNN. :chuckle:
You know my search skills are lacking. I just went on You Tube and looked at the first page in English, then I went and had a look. Weather its one extra ballot or a dozen, its still a failure on whoever was running this polling station. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with that would you Manny?
When you go to vote, do they not hand you your ballot, then you are witnessed dropping it into the box?
Or does the UK, a pillar of democracy throughout the world allow its voters to grab a few ballots, mark them, and plop them into the box completely unsupervised? Thought so.
Others are welcome to find other videos to show, I just can't be bothered spending the time on it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
http://m.mic.com/articles/88957/putin-accidentally-reveals-the-real-results-of-crimea-s-election-and-it-s-exactly-what-we-feared
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There have been some people here who still are under the impression that the Russian army is in Ukraine. Even though nobody, anywhere, has shown any concrete evidence of this.
A couple of days ago I wrote that even the Ukrainian military chiefs do not think the Russian army is present and folks still scoffed. Well, here is a Ukrainian source, not the only one, for the statement from Armed Forces Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Victor Muzhenko: http://www.5.ua/ato-na-shodi/myjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html?PageSpeed=noscript
For those for whom Ukrainian is not comprehensible here's the document in translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.5.ua%2Fato-na-shodi%2Fmyjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html%3FPageSpeed%3Dnoscript&edit-text=
For those who prefer a Russian slant on the story: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frussian.rt.com%2Finotv%2F2015-01-29%2FUkrainskij-genshtab-Rossijskaya-armiya-v&edit-text=
Thank you Andrew but still scoffing here. You have the correct news site. It is Poroschenko's mouthpiece so to speak. Problem is you have a crappy translation. Maybe you can find a Ukrainian speaker who will translate for you or perhaps Volshe can figure it out as it is similar to Russian.
In the beginning the General acknowledges that there are currently conflicts between Ukraine forces and members of the Russian military fighting among the separatists. You could say that he speaks in general of military personnel on vacation with their tanks, civilians, contract mercenaries and military personnel who just get lost and cross far into the border.
The last part concerns the Russian Regular Army. He says only that there are no facts that they are fighting at the time. This is a far cry from the Army not being in Ukraine. He said no such thing. This has been twisted by the Russian media.
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There have been some people here who still are under the impression that the Russian army is in Ukraine. Even though nobody, anywhere, has shown any concrete evidence of this.
A couple of days ago I wrote that even the Ukrainian military chiefs do not think the Russian army is present and folks still scoffed. Well, here is a Ukrainian source, not the only one, for the statement from Armed Forces Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Victor Muzhenko: http://www.5.ua/ato-na-shodi/myjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html?PageSpeed=noscript
For those for whom Ukrainian is not comprehensible here's the document in translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.5.ua%2Fato-na-shodi%2Fmyjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html%3FPageSpeed%3Dnoscript&edit-text=
For those who prefer a Russian slant on the story: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frussian.rt.com%2Finotv%2F2015-01-29%2FUkrainskij-genshtab-Rossijskaya-armiya-v&edit-text=
Thank you Andrew but still scoffing here. You have the correct news site. It is Poroschenko's mouthpiece so to speak. Problem is you have a crappy translation. Maybe you can find a Ukrainian speaker who will translate for you or perhaps Volshe can figure it out as it is similar to Russian.
In the beginning the General acknowledges that there are currently conflicts between Ukraine forces and members of the Russian military fighting among the separatists. You could say that he speaks in general of military personnel on vacation with their tanks, civilians, contract mercenaries and military personnel who just get lost and cross far into the border.
The last part concerns the Russian Regular Army. He says only that there are no facts that they are fighting at the time. This is a far cry from the Army not being in Ukraine. He said no such thing. This has been twisted by the Russian media.
Where's Halo when you need her? :laugh: What about Mendy? What did Andrew do to drive Mendy away?
Aren't there a few other Russian and Ukrainian speakers here? Mark CA, want to give it a shot? Where's Belle? Anyone? :biggrin:
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Andrew, you know already his tactic is to rubbish any source.
Manny isn't it your tactic that no western media sources are acceptable? Only officially Kremlin sanctioned media are acceptable. Isn't that your tactic?
You are being silly again Westy.
Western media sources known to be propaganda channels or with their own agenda can be taken with a pinch of salt,
Who says western media sources are known propaganda channels? You? Let's have some evidence.
especially when previously exposed knowingly lying as the BBC was in its coverage of Odessa.
Links? Evidence?
Seems RT TV is having some troubles meeting impartiality requirements in the UK. Ofcom flagged four separate reports, all broadcast in March this year, all dealing with the situation in Ukraine.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/nov/10/russia-today-ofcom-sanctions-impartiality-ukraine-coverage
From the link:
An Ofcom spokesperson said: “Ofcom has strict rules to protect audiences. If broadcasters break our rules we take swift, robust action.
“Since RT started broadcasting in the UK nine years ago, Ofcom has recorded breaches of the rules on ten occasions covering various issues, ranging from the amount of advertising, to due impartiality and graphic images.
“We have put RT on notice as a result of this breach and if RT breaches our due impartiality rules again we will consider taking further regulatory action, such as imposing a sanction.”
Similarly, one must keep in mind the source when reading Ukrainian or Russian channels.
The facts are the important thing, not the source. There's plenty of other sources, the guy linked to several of 'em but your lazy self could not be arsed to look. The writer though made a succinct case well, that's why I linked to it, easy enough for even someone like you to read - except that, as usual, you were simply too lazy to do so.
Sorry Manny, Andrew disagrees with you. :laugh:
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One of the better videos of what is taking place in Ukraine.
CAUTION, A BIT GRAPHIC THE LAST 8 MINUTES
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Or does the UK, a pillar of democracy throughout the world allow its voters to grab a few ballots, mark them, and plop them into the box completely unsupervised? Thought so.
Some Muslims cast fake votes here by post to get their guy in.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/23/police-open-inquiries-allegations-electoral-fraud-uk
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Bagalia, sorry mate, nice try, but yet again no prize. The page I linked to was Ukrainian. It was the broadcaster who carried the press conference and posted the words of the military chief. The page originally included the video of the guy speaking.
Go do the learning, while you are at it learn to recognise Ukrainian language, it isn't the same as Russian.
The words were clear enough.
Do you still believe that the moon is made of green cheese?
Westcoast, did you get round to sharing with us just how the points made from my post above were incorrect? Which parts of the Ukrainian constitution enabled the coup to be legitimate? Which parts of Ukrainian law applied that made the coup legal?
You are the brightest bloke at your daycare centre, the banker and businessman, this should be easy for you. The Ukrainian authorities make it easy for you, they publish their legislation in english as well as Ukrainian.
Go for it, show us what you're capable of - or perhaps you already did?
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Germany and France try for another peace deal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11392108/Ukraine-crisis-Angela-Merkel-and-Francois-Hollande-to-fly-to-Russia-live.html
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Germany and France try for another peace deal.
Our embarrassment of a Secretary of State, John Kerry, is in Kiev also. He should be giving the DUBs a reality check... but he isn't. I swear, Westy could do a better job of sorting this out!
This is funny:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2015/02/05/scholars-rank-kerry-dead-last-in-terms-of-effectiveness/
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I swear, Westy could do a better job of sorting this out!
Westy would menage, beside, he has RUA back up, i'd be first to run to his rescue ... with couple of advisers among you, guys, and with me interpreting for him, Westy would be the star there! ;)
This is funny:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2015/02/05/scholars-rank-kerry-dead-last-in-terms-of-effectiveness/
from the article: Then, dead last, is John Kerry.
:o
I just shared this with my father, he guessed immediately Kerry was voted the least efficient and asked about Eagleburger's rating - turns out the latter was US Ambassador to Yugoslavia and was held in highest possible respect.
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The situation in Ukraine is reminiscent of our support of the Hungarian Revolution. Radio Free Europe, under the direction of the CIA was encouraging armed resistance and giving advice about anti-tank warfare. Each broadcast was signed off with "Freedom or Death!" As it turned out, only 2,500 Hungarians were killed.
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Bagalia, sorry mate, nice try, but yet again no prize. The page I linked to was Ukrainian. It was the broadcaster who carried the press conference and posted the words of the military chief. The page originally included the video of the guy speaking.
Go do the learning, while you are at it learn to recognise Ukrainian language, it isn't the same as Russian.
The words were clear enough.
Andrew you amateur of obfuscation. I may not be the best speaker in the house but I am at a total loss to how you could not understand me. I clearly said that your link was a good one, that it was Poroschenko's (official) mouthpiece and that you would need a Ukrainian interpreter to read it correctly.
Do you really know anything about critical reading? Was my post really so difficult to understand that you got it totally screwed around? Again for you I place it below.
Thank you Andrew but still scoffing here. You have the correct news site. It is Poroschenko's mouthpiece so to speak. Problem is you have a crappy translation. Maybe you can find a Ukrainian speaker who will translate for you or perhaps Volshe can figure it out as it is similar to Russian.
The wife here is Ukrainian and speaks Ukrainian. The article you posted speaks to military actions, who is definitely fighting whom in Eastern Ukraine. In my opinion the General spoke honestly because he separated the Regular Army from all the rest. His remarks however caused a lot of anger because of two things.
First, because many do not see any difference between military on vacation, contract mercenaries and others vs Regular Army. You would most likely not see any difference if paid American mercenaries were proven to be in Ukraine.
Second, There are scattered reports from the front of Regular Army fighting but firm evidence is not there. Mostly it is believed that the Russian Army is acting in the background as a command structure and support with possibly some handling of more advanced weapons. If it were to get involve directly it would be a much different war.
Your 2nd Russian link to the issue only twisted what the General said possibly because the Russian population does not speak Ukrainian though it can be figured out so most likely it is just propaganda.
Now what is your problem Andrew? You were wrong. You are trying to weasel around this but it will not work this time. Your Russian propaganda summary is not correct. You have not done your research. You have not engaged your critical thinking. You did not do your fact checking.
There is absolutely nothing in the article about the Russian Army not being in Ukraine.
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Germany and France try for another peace deal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11392108/Ukraine-crisis-Angela-Merkel-and-Francois-Hollande-to-fly-to-Russia-live.html
Yes, Kerry has been pushed back to Friday.
My guess is that Poroshenko is going to be given the hard word. After Kiev they are off to Moscow.
Poroshenko is, unless he acts decisively, going to be couped in the next few days. He is trying to appease the nutters with real power in the country (US and nationalists) and Russia. The stupid thing is that he does not want the war to continue but he will not talk to the only people who can help him - the folks in Novorossia.
My guess is that the Novorossians will settle for a federated state with similar terms to those agreed from Putin's suggestions that formed the Minsk Agreement. Now though Kiev is going to have to make good on its part of the deal, negotiate with the leaders in Novorossia and accept the new front lines as the demarcation line.
Poroshenko will go for it, because that's what the major Ukrainian oligarchs want, what the citizens want and because there's no military victory for Kiev here. Russia have already said that this is what they wanted for Ukraine from Day One - except that the area of Novorossia will have grown.
The fly in the ointment is the US. I believe that Kerry, for all his faults does not want war, but his bosses have different plans. Only if the US can be persuaded that the EU is not going to go along with the US any longer will there be any chance that the US will allow an end to the civil war. The EU through Germany and France's refusal to provide any military assistance to Kiev is a strong public hint to the US, supplemented, for sure, by back channel dialogue.
Right now all the auguries point to an end to the civil war OR the disintegration of Ukraine. Only the US wins from the latter and the cost of anything other than the former to the EU makes the end of the war a core interest of the EU right now.
There are those who are suggesting that this whole thing had, among other objectives, the weakening of the EU relative to the US. My feeling is that this is correct and that the EU major powers are now fully alive to that reality.
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amateur of obfuscation
EASL, had to look up this word:
Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication.
Amateur/ dilettante in obfuscation would then denote someone who is not good in muddling the waters, ie. a person who communicates clearly and unambiguously, yes?
p.s. haven't read the rest of the post, and don't want to annoy anyone, but use of such words in a sentence is rather interesting, more so when the meaning is not clear
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amateur of obfuscation
EASL, had to look up this word:
Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication.
Amateur/ dilettante in obfuscation would then denote someone who is not good in muddling the waters, ie. a person who communicates clearly and unambiguously, yes?
p.s. haven't read the rest of the post, and don't want to annoy anyone, but use of such words in a sentence is rather interesting, more so when the meaning is not clear
We have one or two "Accidental Comedian" types on this site. They can be prolix, loquacious, tendentious and self-aggrandizing - all in one post!
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Markje would your wife, when she worked as a lawyer in Ukraine, go into court with information from an anonymous blogger's website as evidence? As for the law being followed or not being followed I can easily find just as much evidence to say the law was followed as anything Andrew has presented.
If you can read Ukrainian, you are welcome to read my wifes lawbooks which quite clearly state exactly the same as that anonymously blogger. Would you consider official law books of the Ukrainian constitution a good source?
Mark
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http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-armed-forces-set-call-female-citizens-aged-20-50-new-recruitment-cycle-304276
Well looks like quite a few 20+ y.o. ladies will be motivated to leave the UA now... even the USA and EU Countries do not draft ladies - only volunteers accepted and if not for the LGBTQ lobby they would not be allowed in combat - women in body bags have a negative impact on morale in multiple ways - even the Israelis only deploy their women in support roles.
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The situation in Ukraine is reminiscent of our support of the Hungarian Revolution. Radio Free Europe, under the direction of the CIA was encouraging armed resistance and giving advice about anti-tank warfare. Each broadcast was signed off with "Freedom or Death!" As it turned out, only 2,500 Hungarians were killed.
T2 I'm surprised you used the word 'only' when discussing the deaths of 2,500 people. I would of thought someone such as yourself who dislikes violence, would view these deaths as so trivial.
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The situation in Ukraine is reminiscent of our support of the Hungarian Revolution. Radio Free Europe, under the direction of the CIA was encouraging armed resistance and giving advice about anti-tank warfare. Each broadcast was signed off with "Freedom or Death!" As it turned out, only 2,500 Hungarians were killed.
T2 I'm surprised you used the word 'only' when discussing the deaths of 2,500 people. I would of thought someone such as yourself who dislikes violence, would view these deaths as so trivial.
Don, do you hear that whooshing sound over your head?
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http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-armed-forces-set-call-female-citizens-aged-20-50-new-recruitment-cycle-304276
Well looks like quite a few 20+ y.o. ladies will be motivated to leave the UA now... even the USA and EU Countries do not draft ladies - only volunteers accepted and if not for the LGBTQ lobby they would not be allowed in combat - women in body bags have a negative impact on morale in multiple ways - even the Israelis only deploy their women in support roles.
I did discuss the draft article briefly last night with the wife and she said that she was given mandatory medical training at University for such an event and would be called for nursing duty if that were to happen. They gave her a special ID with nursing labelled on it to show if she was drafted. She was also given general military training during the last two years of high school including shooting, throwing grenades etc. kinda like basic training but with fake grenades and probably blank bullets.
Of course there are some women with other special abilities and some will volunteer for a battalion and general duty but mainly they are support.
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The situation in Ukraine is reminiscent of our support of the Hungarian Revolution. Radio Free Europe, under the direction of the CIA was encouraging armed resistance and giving advice about anti-tank warfare. Each broadcast was signed off with "Freedom or Death!" As it turned out, only 2,500 Hungarians were killed.
T2 I'm surprised you used the word 'only' when discussing the deaths of 2,500 people. I would of thought someone such as yourself who dislikes violence, would view these deaths as so trivial.
I attempted to point out that the Hungarians suffered only half the losses as the Ukrainians, as a result of taking our poor counsel, and there is no telling what the final body count will be.
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Markje would your wife, when she worked as a lawyer in Ukraine, go into court with information from an anonymous blogger's website as evidence? As for the law being followed or not being followed I can easily find just as much evidence to say the law was followed as anything Andrew has presented.
If you can read Ukrainian, you are welcome to read my wifes lawbooks which quite clearly state exactly the same as that anonymously blogger. Would you consider official law books of the Ukrainian constitution a good source?
Mark
Mark don't know about the law in the Netherlands or Ukraine but in the UK, Canada and the US there's a rule called the Best Evidence Rule. Basically what it says is:
Best Evidence Rule
A rule of evidence that demands that the original of any document, photograph, or recording be used as evidence at trial, rather than a copy. A copy will be allowed into evidence only if the original is unavailable.
Since there is undoubtedly a copy of the applicable Ukraine Constitution available relying on what's on the website of an anonymous blogger is not best evidence. In other words despite what Andrew says sources matter.
http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/best-evidence-rule-term.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/best_evidence_rule
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Putin emotional health called into question.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-has-aspergers-pentagon-report-says/ar-AA90Ztn?ocid=ansSkyNews11
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Westcoast, did you get round to sharing with us just how the points made from my post above were incorrect? Which parts of the Ukrainian constitution enabled the coup to be legitimate? Which parts of Ukrainian law applied that made the coup legal?
You are the brightest bloke at your daycare centre, the banker and businessman, this should be easy for you. The Ukrainian authorities make it easy for you, they publish their legislation in english as well as Ukrainian.
Go for it, show us what you're capable of - or perhaps you already did?
Andrew haven't found too much of the Ukrainian legislation in English but more than enough to show that relying on the words posted on some anonymous blog is foolish.
First let's remind everyone about what the disagreement is about. Here's the article Andrew referenced. (https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/) I'm sure everyone is on the edge of their seat and following every word of posts by Andrew and myself. :laugh:
This is an anonymous blog. What Andrew is saying is that since what's on the blog is correct sources don't matter. As I showed in a post today to Markje sources do matter. Using the words on a blog when the English language version of the constitution is available is not Best Evidence.
According to this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine) the 1996 Ukraine Constitution was still valid because although passed by the needed members of the Ukraine Parliament, President Viktor Yanukovych hadn't signed it into law.
Article 108 of the 1996 Ukraine Constitution deals with the removal of the president from office.
From the blog (https://gpforecasts.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/yanukovychs-removal-was-unconstitutional/)
Article 108. The President of Ukraine shall exercise his powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.
The authority of the President of Ukraine shall be subject to an early termination in cases of:
1) resignation;
2) inability to exercise presidential authority for health reasons;
3) removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
4) his/her death.[7]
If you follow the reference [7] to its link on the blog that leads to a 404 error. Therefore there's no way to know if this is a legitimate reference or not. Not best evidence so another source should have been found since many official sources are available.
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Mark don't know about the law in the Netherlands or Ukraine but in the UK, Canada and the US there's a rule called the Best Evidence Rule. Basically what it says is:
So, because you didn't accept AndrewFi's source I provided a much better one.
Now will you accept the point that Yanukovich's impeachment was illegal?
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Mark don't know about the law in the Netherlands or Ukraine but in the UK, Canada and the US there's a rule called the Best Evidence Rule. Basically what it says is:
So, because you didn't accept AndrewFi's source I provided a much better one.
Now will you accept the point that Yanukovich's impeachment was illegal?
Mark, Yanukovich ran away. There appears to be nothing in the Ukrainian Constitution that deals with a president willfully abandoning his office. Therefore the Ukrainian parliament is left to its own deciding what to do.
The Ukrainian parliament had to do something. They couldn't simply leave the office of president vacant because this particular situation wasn't covered in the Constitution.
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Mark don't know about the law in the Netherlands or Ukraine but in the UK, Canada and the US there's a rule called the Best Evidence Rule. Basically what it says is:
So, because you didn't accept AndrewFi's source I provided a much better one.
Now will you accept the point that Yanukovich's impeachment was illegal?
Mark, Yanukovich ran away. There appears to be nothing in the Ukrainian Constitution that deals with a president willfully abandoning his office. Therefore the Ukrainian parliament is left to its own deciding what to do.
The Ukrainian parliament had to do something. They couldn't simply leave the office of president vacant because this particular situation wasn't covered in the Constitution.
He ran for his life, but with modern technologies a President can act from wherever he wants. He clearly stated himself he considered himself president until Poroshenko was elected, then he stopped claiming that.
Addendum from the wife: The law is clear. If the president ran, they still should have followed procedure and impeach him legally.
This clearly falls under 'health' , but that one was also not followed.
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Markje, don't bother with the old man. He doesn't understand what he reads and is forced to argue about that which he thinks he can understand. You could sit him down with a lawyer who'd explain everything to him and at the end, if you asked him what he'd been told he'd not be able to explain back to you the content of the session.
He isn't unique. There's plenty like him. Sadly some of them have 'authority'; at least our Westy has none and is thus safe.
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He ran for his life, but with modern technologies a President can act from wherever he wants.
From where I was sitting he didn't have support to carry out anything. He abandoned his post, and has a warrant for his arrest, but is hiding in Russia, and of course Putin won't hand him over to anyone.
It would be interesting to read a unbiased report on what the rules are.
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He ran for his life, but with modern technologies a President can act from wherever he wants.
From where I was sitting he didn't have support to carry out anything. He abandoned his post, and has a warrant for his arrest, but is hiding in Russia, and of course Putin won't hand him over to anyone.
It would be interesting to read a unbiased report on what the rules are.
The rules are very clear in the constitution. There is also no room for interpretation!
They should have impeached him after he ran for his life, but because they didn't , he was still president until Poroshenko.
They held a vote to somehow get an air of legality in demoting Yanukovich, but that has no bearing in Ukrainian law.
I don't blame Yanu at all for running, if your ministers stop following the law it is the best option.
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from Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
Constitutionality challenged[edit]
According to Daisy Sindelar from Radio Free Europe, the impeachment may have not followed the procedure provided by the constitution enacted during Yanukovych's administration: "t is not clear that the hasty February 22 vote upholds constitutional guidelines, which call for a review of the case by Ukraine's Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by the Verkhovna Rada -- i.e., 338 lawmakers." The vote, as analyzed by Sindelar, had ten votes less than those required by the constitutional guidelines. However, Sindelar noted in the same article that, "That discrepancy may soon become irrelevant, with parliament expected to elect a new prime minister no later than February 24." The decision to remove Yanukovich was supported by 328 deputies.[a][15][16][17][171]
So it was handled in Soviet style fashion.
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from Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
Constitutionality challenged[edit]
According to Daisy Sindelar from Radio Free Europe, the impeachment may have not followed the procedure provided by the constitution enacted during Yanukovych's administration: "t is not clear that the hasty February 22 vote upholds constitutional guidelines, which call for a review of the case by Ukraine's Constitutional Court and a three-fourths majority vote by the Verkhovna Rada -- i.e., 338 lawmakers." The vote, as analyzed by Sindelar, had ten votes less than those required by the constitutional guidelines. However, Sindelar noted in the same article that, "That discrepancy may soon become irrelevant, with parliament expected to elect a new prime minister no later than February 24." The decision to remove Yanukovich was supported by 328 deputies.[a][15][16][17][171]
So it was handled in Soviet style fashion.
Except they forgot to do all the stuff prior to a vote.
The vote itself was invalid, therefore the outcome doesn't matter. Law was not followed.
The article itself even says so. They had to ask approval first from Ukraine's constitutional court before the vote.
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I'm not disagreeing with you, that is why I said they did 'Soviet Style'
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Mark don't know about the law in the Netherlands or Ukraine but in the UK, Canada and the US there's a rule called the Best Evidence Rule. Basically what it says is:
So, because you didn't accept AndrewFi's source I provided a much better one.
Now will you accept the point that Yanukovich's impeachment was illegal?
Mark, Yanukovich ran away. There appears to be nothing in the Ukrainian Constitution that deals with a president willfully abandoning his office. Therefore the Ukrainian parliament is left to its own deciding what to do.
The Ukrainian parliament had to do something. They couldn't simply leave the office of president vacant because this particular situation wasn't covered in the Constitution.
He ran for his life, but with modern technologies a President can act from wherever he wants. He clearly stated himself he considered himself president until Poroshenko was elected, then he stopped claiming that.
Addendum from the wife: The law is clear. If the president ran, they still should have followed procedure and impeach him legally.
This clearly falls under 'health' , but that one was also not followed.
Mark, who says he ran for his life? Doesn't the President of Ukraine have a security detail? As for his health, he's still alive so it seems to be excellent so how could he be impeached for ill health while he's living in Russia under Putin's protection? Would he have shown up in Kiev for the trial? Probably not. Wouldn't that type of impeachment be a mockery of the Ukrainian Constitution?
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Mark, who says he ran for his life? Doesn't the President of Ukraine have a security detail? As for his health, he's still alive so it seems to be excellent so how could he be impeached for ill health while he's living in Russia under Putin's protection? Would he have shown up in Kiev for the trial? Probably not. Wouldn't that type of impeachment be a mockery of the Ukrainian Constitution?
If there are enough people who want you dead, a couple of security personell is no protection at all, you know that as well as I do.
Ill health can be mental as well, but I am only guessing here.
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This is what I have been saying for a long time. Almost no body in eastern Ukraine want the rebels. This is just Russia making a war where none was needed. This is one vote that can not be faked.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/02/merkel-hollande-discuss-ukraine-crisis-putin-150206234615069.html
Debaltseve, a government-held railway hub between the two main rebel-controlled cities of Donetsk and Lugansk.
Both sides sent convoys of buses, giving residents a choice to evacuate to government or rebel territory.
The government buses left full; the rebel buses left mostly empty.
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http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/trend-lines/15035/arming-ukraine-makes-no-sense-when-russia-is-already-losing
Broadly speaking, there have been two competing camps on Russia policy throughout Obama’s time in office: the realists, and the loose alliance of liberal interventionists, neoconservatives and democracy advocates. The realist camp, best summarized by former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger’s March 2014 op-ed calling for negotiations with Russia to resolve the crisis, sees Russia as a great power with legitimate interests in its immediate sphere of influence, and as a crucial partner for the U.S. on issues ranging from nuclear non-proliferation to Afghanistan. The realists enjoyed great influence during Obama’s first term, which largely coincided with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s term in office and the attempted reset of U.S.-Russia relations.
The second, more hawkish camp, meanwhile, has stressed a more confrontational approach to Russia. Well before the Ukraine crisis, the hawks were calling for the U.S. to encourage NATO membership for former Soviet republics including Ukraine and Georgia and to sanction members of Putin’s inner circle. This camp helped shape former Gov. Mitt Romney’s statement as a presidential candidate that Russia is “America’s number one geopolitical foe.”
Both camps have frequently expressed disappointment with the Obama administration, which has been variously castigated for being too accommodating to Moscow before the Ukraine crisis and too confrontational since. But the administration’s caution is justifiable, because neither camp’s reflexive instincts fully fit the current conflict.
The key mistake made by realists is believing that accommodation with Putin is still a realistic option. Russia’s actions in Ukraine, in particular the annexation of Crimea, represent a major breach of international law and have destabilized the region. Especially since the downing of a Malaysian airliner over eastern Ukraine, Putin has become too toxic for Western leaders to engage constructively, and few shared U.S.-Russia interests are significant enough to mitigate this problem.
The hawkish camp neglects two major points. The first is that however reckless Putin may be, Russia is too powerful to be treated as a rogue state. The West cannot risk a return to Cold War-style confrontation; rather, as Hill and Gaddy argue, caution is essential. The second point is that the U.S. has no special obligation to Ukraine, which for the time being is not a NATO ally or a significant trading partner. Treating Ukraine’s immediate security concerns as synonymous with U.S. national interests is an unwarranted leap.
Objectively, the Ukraine crisis has been a disaster for Russia, which has seen a collapse in the value of its currency and is preparing for a major recession. It is too early to tell how this will play out domestically for Putin, but a policy of steadily escalating sanctions and diplomatic shunning seems to be paying off. Hawks have argued that Ukraine’s military losses should be the benchmark of Putin’s strategy, but this is a narrow view, especially since very few people believe the U.S. is capable of reversing these losses with the proposed military aid.
Instead, the real purpose of arming Kiev seems to be to increase the violence in eastern Ukraine, which it would surely do, and then hope that Moscow is somehow discouraged rather than emboldened. Creating a new U.S. security commitment in the region would be an irresponsible move that would not benefit anyone in Ukraine, and its impact on an already weakened Russia could endanger Europe far more than the status quo.
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Right now all the auguries point to an end to the civil war OR the disintegration of Ukraine. Only the US wins from the latter and the cost of anything other than the former to the EU makes the end of the war a core interest of the EU right now.
There are those who are suggesting that this whole thing had, among other objectives, the weakening of the EU relative to the US. My feeling is that this is correct and that the EU major powers are now fully alive to that reality.
It's quite possible, as there had been a strong opposition in US at the time to Europe's having its own single European military. (That being said, NATO does carry out some of the functions which was planned for European Defence Community, but none to the degree that EDC would have provided.)
Those debates spark again here and there: Should we have a European army? (I think we should, but it seems Europeans don't want to chip in what it takes... Or, at least, weren't willing, before the crisis in Ukraine.)
http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2012/10/30/should-we-have-a-european-army/#.VNacpfmjOw0
Other than that, I don't know if this article was shared before, but it comes across as reasonable to me:
"There is a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, however - although it would require the West to think about the country in a fundamentally new way. The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral buffer between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position during the Cold War. Western leaders should acknowledge that Ukraine matters so much to Putin that they cannot support an anti-Russian regime there. This would not mean that a future Ukrainian government would have to be pro-Russian or anti-NATO. On the contrary, the goal should be a sovereign Ukraine that falls in neither the Russian nor the Western camp.
To achieve this end, the United States and its allies should publicly rule out NATO’s expansion into both Georgia and Ukraine. The West should also help fashion an economic rescue plan for Ukraine funded jointly by the EU, the International Monetary Fund, Russia, and the United States - a proposal that Moscow should welcome, given its interest in having a prosperous and stable Ukraine on its western flank. And the West should considerably limit its social-engineering efforts inside Ukraine. It is time to put an end to Western support for another Orange Revolution. Nevertheless, U.S. and European leaders should encourage Ukraine to respect minority rights, especially the language rights of its Russian speakers."
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault
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Right now all the auguries point to an end to the civil war OR the disintegration of Ukraine. Only the US wins from the latter and the cost of anything other than the former to the EU makes the end of the war a core interest of the EU right now.
There are those who are suggesting that this whole thing had, among other objectives, the weakening of the EU relative to the US. My feeling is that this is correct and that the EU major powers are now fully alive to that reality.
It's quite possible, as there had been a strong opposition in US at the time to Europe's having its own single European military. (That being said, NATO does carry out some of the functions which was planned for European Defence Community, but none to the degree that EDC would have provided.)
Those debates spark again here and there: Should we have a European army? (I think we should, but it seems Europeans don't want to chip in what it takes... Or, at least, weren't willing, before the crisis in Ukraine.)
http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2012/10/30/should-we-have-a-european-army/#.VNacpfmjOw0
Other than that, I don't know if this article was shared before, but it comes across as reasonable to me:
"There is a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, however - although it would require the West to think about the country in a fundamentally new way. The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral buffer between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position during the Cold War. Western leaders should acknowledge that Ukraine matters so much to Putin that they cannot support an anti-Russian regime there. This would not mean that a future Ukrainian government would have to be pro-Russian or anti-NATO. On the contrary, the goal should be a sovereign Ukraine that falls in neither the Russian nor the Western camp.
To achieve this end, the United States and its allies should publicly rule out NATO’s expansion into both Georgia and Ukraine. The West should also help fashion an economic rescue plan for Ukraine funded jointly by the EU, the International Monetary Fund, Russia, and the United States - a proposal that Moscow should welcome, given its interest in having a prosperous and stable Ukraine on its western flank. And the West should considerably limit its social-engineering efforts inside Ukraine. It is time to put an end to Western support for another Orange Revolution. Nevertheless, U.S. and European leaders should encourage Ukraine to respect minority rights, especially the language rights of its Russian speakers."
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault
I keep hearing people say the problems in Ukraine are the fault of NATO enlargement. What is wrong with NATO enlargement? If Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia want to join NATO why should Russia have a veto power over what international organizations these INDEPENDENT countries can join?
One of the reasons these countries wanted to join NATO was protection from Russia. They knew better than any western country what the politics of a Russian government might lead to. They didn't want to be forced by Russia back into any type of alliance with Russia. Why should they be required to fend for themselves against an adversary with a conventional military many times their size AND with nukes?
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I keep hearing people say the problems in Ukraine are the fault of NATO enlargement. What is wrong with NATO enlargement?
Westy, that article i linked to is excellent, so i won't bother to retell in my own words what's wrong:
This is Geopolitics 101: great powers are always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory. After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders. Imagine the outrage in Washington if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it. Logic aside, Russian leaders have told their Western counterparts on many occasions that they consider NATO expansion into Georgia and Ukraine unacceptable, along with any effort to turn those countries against Russia - a message that the 2008 Russian-Georgian war also made crystal clear.
Ultimately, it is Russians, not the West, who get to decide what's a threat to them.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault
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I keep hearing people say the problems in Ukraine are the fault of NATO enlargement. What is wrong with NATO enlargement?
Westy, that article i linked to is excellent, so i won't bother to retell in my own words what's wrong:
This is Geopolitics 101: great powers are always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory. After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders. Imagine the outrage in Washington if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico in it. Logic aside, Russian leaders have told their Western counterparts on many occasions that they consider NATO expansion into Georgia and Ukraine unacceptable, along with any effort to turn those countries against Russia - a message that the 2008 Russian-Georgian war also made crystal clear.
Ultimately, it is Russians, not the West, who get to decide what's a threat to them.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault
The simple fact of the matter is that there is no way to know what would happen in 2015 (let alone many decades in the future) to lead Mexico or Canada to join a military alliance with China. Many variables might influence that decision. Has the US collapsed, devolved into several/many independent countries? Has the US radically changed its politics and become communist? A dictatorship? A monarchy? Has China improved their politics and become a true democracy and a world leader in human rights and justice? Did Canada take over the US in a military coup and now China is joining a Canadian led military alliance out of fear of Canada next annexing China? :laugh:
If you follow Canadian politics (few foreigners do) you'll find that Canada does not always follow the US lead. Canada didn't follow the US into Iraq. Canada was one of the first countries in the world to legalise gay marriage. Canada has a national health care system, no one is really sure what the health care system in the US is. Guns are everywhere in the US, almost nonexistent in Canada. There are many examples of differences between the US and Canada.
One of the most recent and most applicable examples to your question is the fact that Canada has recently developed an economic treaty with China where trade can be done in yuan and Canadian dollars, bypassing the USD. Will this lead to the diminishing use of the USD as a global currency? Will this hurt the US economy? Who knows.
As for your comment that it is the Russians that not the West that gets to decide what is a threat to them, that's true. However, remember it is Ukraine, not Russia, that gets to decide what is a threat to Ukraine. And Ukraine has decided that Russia is a threat to Ukraine.
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As for your comment that it is the Russians that not the West that gets to decide what is a threat to them, that's true. However, remember it is Ukraine, not Russia, that gets to decide what is a threat to Ukraine. And Ukraine has decided that Russia is a threat to Ukraine.
No. Ukraine decided to get closer to Russia, as they had been happy neighbours for several decades. Then the US orchestrated the overthrow of the president to try to reverse that. Then McCain, Kerry and cookies arrived and 5000 people died and 800,000 fled to the safety of Russia.
You missed that bit in your verbose eulogy.
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As for your comment that it is the Russians that not the West that gets to decide what is a threat to them, that's true. However, remember it is Ukraine, not Russia, that gets to decide what is a threat to Ukraine. And Ukraine has decided that Russia is a threat to Ukraine.
No. Ukraine decided to get closer to Russia, as they had been happy neighbours for several decades. Then the US orchestrated the overthrow of the president to try to reverse that. Then McCain, Kerry and cookies arrived and 5000 people died and 800,000 fled to the safety of Russia.
You missed that bit in your verbose eulogy.
Documentation, links to show McCain and Kerry's visits were anything more than standard diplomatic visits? Documentation to show the US orchestrated the overthrow of the Viktor Yanukovych? Do you have a money trail? Involvement of the CIA? Etc, etc? Or is this just stuff you're making up, as usual?
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http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/
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As for your comment that it is the Russians that not the West that gets to decide what is a threat to them, that's true. However, remember it is Ukraine, not Russia, that gets to decide what is a threat to Ukraine. And Ukraine has decided that Russia is a threat to Ukraine.
No. Ukraine decided to get closer to Russia, as they had been happy neighbours for several decades. Then the US orchestrated the overthrow of the president to try to reverse that. Then McCain, Kerry and cookies arrived and 5000 people died and 800,000 fled to the safety of Russia.
You missed that bit in your verbose eulogy.
I think you forgot the part where Ukraine decided to get closer to the EU first. Then Russia paid off/coerced THEIR puppet president to pull away and move closer to Russia.
Funny how it cuts both ways, yet you always make it out like only one sharp side exists...
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Those debates spark again here and there: Should we have a European army? (I think we should, but it seems Europeans don't want to chip in what it takes... Or, at least, weren't willing, before the crisis in Ukraine.)
You're spot on there. I'd love to see Europe get it's own standing military. Save American tax dollars.
But they won't because the majority of Southern Europe can even pay for it's exorbitant entitlement-laden government as it is. There's zero political will to pay for a military when there's no existential threat for the immediate future. Germany controls all economically now. No need to invade. Just need to keep pumping out exports to the surrounding countries (Germany's GDP is heavily skewed to 50% Exports).
And that's the real reason Germany is committed to the Euro and EU...without a common currency, other countries couldn't afford Germany's exports...and Germany wouldn't be able to suck the money out of those countries nearly as easily.
Nevertheless, U.S. and European leaders should encourage Ukraine to respect minority rights, especially the language rights of its Russian speakers."
This part made me laugh...Russian speakers as minorities in Urkaine :ROFL:
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http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/
Pierre Omidyar hired journalists and investigators who end up showing that Omidyar financed along with the US government the regime change in Ukraine. Does that makes sense? A billionaire entrepreneur outs himself? Nothing in this article proves anything.
First. The article says "According to financial disclosures and reports seen by Pando, the founder and publisher of Glenn Greenwald’s government-bashing blog,“The Intercept,” co-invested with the US government to help fund regime change in Ukraine." Pando never discloses any of the articles they claim to have seen. Why?
Second. Pierre Omidyar and his groups of companies are not employees/consultants of the US government. That's what an NGO is, a non governmental organization.
Third. Having the word 'USAID' on a document that might be from a group in Ukraine is not a paper trail. There's no proof the document is from Chesno. There's no proof that USAID sent the money to Chesno. For that type of proof you'd need verified documentation from USAID.
As for what the activities of Chesno did with the supposed USAID funds that's unclear. The Google translation was muddled and not detailed.
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https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/usaid-got-ukraine-maidan-coup-up-and-running/
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forest for the trees......a half a million dollars buys you a revolution, yeah OK. Someone let the billionaire oligarchs in on the secret.
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https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/usaid-got-ukraine-maidan-coup-up-and-running/
Again no proof. Just because the US has sent $5 billion in foreign aid to the Ukraine since about 1991. You'll find the US sends billions of dollars in foreign aid to many countries around the world. Russia only recently stopped taking US aid money. In the last couple of decades Russia was more than willing to take money from the US.
http://www.foreignassistance.gov/web/countryintro.aspx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/30/us-foreign-aid-by-country_n_1837824.html
http://www.dailypaul.com/223171/top-25-recipients-of-us-foreign-aid
As for Nuland's phone call I'd be willing to bet she's said something similar when some other country or organization pisses her off.
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http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4914682
Westy ,
Even uncle Sam does not seem to be able to explain where all the money goes
We've gone over this before :'(
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http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4914682
Westy ,
Even uncle Sam does not seem to be able to explain where all the money goes
We've gone over this before :'(
I doubt the US government has ever known where the money goes in foreign aid whether it's to Ukraine or Russia or any other country. I'm still waiting to find out if the US government found the hundreds of millions/billions of dollars they lost in aid to Iraq?
If this is a conspiracy it's been going on for decades under all administrations. I know of a number of Americans that would personally like the US to stop sending aid to countries like China and many others and instead spend the money in the US. IMHO it certainly appears to be careless but without far more evidence, like a paper trail and documentation saying who authorized the funds, it isn't regime change.
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http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/01/07/us-ngo-uncovered-in-ukraine-protests/
Westy,
You won't find one paper trail, but seems very easy to find information pointing to uncle Sam.
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http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/01/07/us-ngo-uncovered-in-ukraine-protests/
Westy,
You won't find one paper trail, but seems very easy to find information pointing to uncle Sam.
Don't see how a pamphlet on how to protest, even if it's identical to those used in Egypt, is a case for US government involvement. Many of these protests are organized online and involve people literally from all over the world.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were some of the same people involved in organizing both the protests in Egypt and those in Kiev. After all the two locations aren't that far apart. We've had people from Europe at protests in Vancouver, BC and that's a far greater distance than the distance between Kiev and Egypt.
As for the Belgrade CANVAS NGO are you now saying the Serbians were behind Euromaidan? :laugh:
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Westy,
What I'm trying to show you is many were involved,not just Ukrainians.
This was never about what the citizens of Ukraine wanted.
It's what Washington wanted for Ukraine.
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Westy,
What I'm trying to show you is many were involved,not just Ukrainians.
This was never about what the citizens of Ukraine wanted.
It's what Washington wanted for Ukraine.
There's always foreigners involved in any large scale protests. When there've been riots in Vancouver there are reports of Americans, Europeans and others being involved in the planning and demonstrating. That's not at all unusual.
As I've mentioned many of these protests are organized online and tend to draw in people from all over the world. I really don't see how you'd be able to stop people from going to Ukraine to join the protests.
Any government department Washington that has studied large scale protests will know large scale protests have an international component.
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Griffin, you misremember what happened. Yanukovych and government had spent a lot of time and resources on aligning toward the EU. Although everything that Yanukovych understood and had worked for in his political career had been about retaining Ukrainian control over Ukrainian assets because of what was understood to be 'the will of the people' he cast that aside and worked towards EU integration.
What was not understood at the time was the cost of that integration in raw money terms. He already understood the cost in terms of the economic colonisation of Ukraine. When he was faced with the financial assessment in late 2013 he understood that something had to be done. The EU refused assistance.
At that point the Yanukovych government said, quite correctly, that the association would need to be delayed. That was the cause of the Maidan protests.
Yanukovych was not a Russian tool. That had been clear for years.
At the same time Ukraine faced needs for capital, again the EU and other actors were not willing to help. Russia offered strings free loans. At the same time they suggested to Ukraine that joining the Eurasian Federation made a whole heap of sense, which it did. No 'joining costs', no economic colonisation and similar tariff free market access.
It is almost impossible to belong to two different customs unions at the same time, if you don't know why then do some internet searches.
It was at that point that the Maidan stuff got ugly.
It is important to understand the policy goals of the US and EU here. The US wants to have their military on Russia's borders. The EU association agreement gives nato access to associate members territory. The EU and US sought access to Ukraine assets, some to exploit, others to close down. An open market in which Ukraine was the vastly less wealthy partner guaranteed that access.
At the point at which the Ukrainian government said 'hey, hold on' the die was cast. The EU and US tried to get Ukraine on the cheap. They could/should have provided integration assistance but they cheaped out. Had they offered the assistance then all this would not have happened, Yanukovych would have signed up, US and Europe would be crawling all over the country buying up assets on the cheap and probably Crimea would now be housing the US navy - or at least well on its way to being there.
That the costs were an issue was made clear in that as soon as the newly appointed Junta saw the accounts they too asked for time to consider what happens next. Even now, the expensive part of the EU association agreement has been postponed, probably into infinity, but at least until later this year.
Obviously that's a 20 line summary of a complex situation however when you go and do the reading,, particularly of the association agreement and the primary sources for current affairs you'll get a better picture. Learning about Ukrainian economic policy and Yanukovych's role in protecting Ukrainian assets will help - that's a 15 year story all by itself. Using words such as 'puppet' shows the lack of knowledge supporting your words.
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Those debates spark again here and there: Should we have a European army? (I think we should, but it seems Europeans don't want to chip in what it takes... Or, at least, weren't willing, before the crisis in Ukraine.)
You're spot on there. I'd love to see Europe get it's own standing military. Save American tax dollars.
Me too, and... It's not that you think those dollars are paid from your budget exclusively for you are kindhearted big brother who feels prompted to protect us? :)
And that's the real reason Germany is committed to the Euro and EU...
You are breaking my heart, Griff... And there i thought they were in just for the ideals ... :snivel:
This part made me laugh...Russian speakers as minorities in Ukraine :ROFL:
You are right probably that de facto Russian speakers are not the minority, but de jure they are. We had exactly the same situation with "late" Serbo-Croatian which all of us in all former ex-Yu republics spoke, the single language then "sprung" into four languages (Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, Serbian) and then the modern day Tower of Babel story was repeated... that linguistic situation is still a legislative minefield for my own country.
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http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-liberators-in-avdeyevka/
As we debate, from the comfort and safety of our homes keep in mind the innocent people who suffer, without any say in what is talking place.
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http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-liberators-in-avdeyevka/
As we debate, from the comfort and safety of our homes keep in mind the innocent people who suffer, without any say in what is talking place.
I do think, Tom Cat, that we as a group are the least likely to forget about that. No need to shame us, especially not me, as i had lost all of that at the time and have been through the same, and more so Griffin on whose personal circumstances i won't expand, but take my word on it that he can not dismiss that it's "the innocent people who suffer", even if he wanted to.
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http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/ukraine-sicherheitskreise-bis-zu-50-000-tote-13416132.html
German security circles expect for information of the Sunday newspaper with the fact that so far up to 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians may have come in the fighting in the east of the country killed. That's almost ten times as many as last officially stated. The official figures are clearly too low and not credible sources in the safety circuits. So -digit number of victims would be reported after heavy fighting often , although there must have been actually caused dozens of deaths .
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http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/ukraine-sicherheitskreise-bis-zu-50-000-tote-13416132.html
German security circles expect for information of the Sunday newspaper with the fact that so far up to 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians may have come in the fighting in the east of the country killed. That's almost ten times as many as last officially stated. The official figures are clearly too low and not credible sources in the safety circuits. So -digit number of victims would be reported after heavy fighting often , although there must have been actually caused dozens of deaths .
Well if true, that will make you happy that so many DUB's have been stiffed.
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This story did not appear at this time by accident. The meme that is being built is of the futility of the Ukrainian attack on Donbass and the populace is being prepared for the necessary volte face that will become more apparent over the next few days. In addition this is a signal to the Junta that the EU and possibly the US will no longer put up with the childish bulls hit from the 'government' in Kiev. 'We know what is really going on' is the message to the Kiev placeholders.
At the moment though it seems that the Ukrainian armed forces are having a push along large parts of the front line and something big just went up in Donetsk. In addition it seems Aidar battalion is being fired on by both the Ukrainian army and the Novorossian forces.
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Well if true, that will make you happy that so many DUB's have been stiffed.
Hell no! I would be happy if the government forces pulled back from Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts.
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http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/ukraine-sicherheitskreise-bis-zu-50-000-tote-13416132.html
German security circles expect for information of the Sunday newspaper with the fact that so far up to 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians may have come in the fighting in the east of the country killed. That's almost ten times as many as last officially stated. The official figures are clearly too low and not credible sources in the safety circuits. So -digit number of victims would be reported after heavy fighting often , although there must have been actually caused dozens of deaths .
Well if true, that will make you happy that so many DUB's have been stiffed.
The article doesn't mention how the German security services came up with the figure of 50,000 killed. If you read stories from either the Ukrainian military or pro-Russian separatists side the numbers of killed and injured aren't hugely different, certainly not by an order of 10 times.
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Locals believe the number is much higher
Than stated, but no other numbers have been spoken.
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The article doesn't mention how the German security services came up with the figure of 50,000 killed. If you read stories from either the Ukrainian military or pro-Russian separatists side the numbers of killed and injured aren't hugely different, certainly not by an order of 10 times.
German Intelligence doesn't want to expose their capability by making their methods public. :prophead:
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This story did not appear at this time by accident. The meme that is being built is of the futility of the Ukrainian attack on Donbass and the populace is being prepared for the necessary volte face that will become more apparent over the next few days. In addition this is a signal to the Junta that the EU and possibly the US will no longer put up with the childish bulls hit from the 'government' in Kiev. 'We know what is really going on' is the message to the Kiev placeholders.
Ukraine is in a very bad position in respect to the body count. If they under-report it, they are less likely to get lethal military equipment from the West. If they report big numbers, they are more likely to get the weapons but less likely to retain public support for the cleansing.
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Do not fear children. The Pro-Russian talking points lately has turned to a more gentle war is futile approach. We feel your pain. Ukraine cannot win. The death toll is 10 times more than reported. Aidar is being bombed by its own side. Women will be forced to the front line. The people are against the war.
Mostly it is propaganda. Aidar had a paperwork change and they are in a difficult place but will be OK. There are Aidar impostors spreading rumors. This is old news.
The death toll is accurate enough for now. They can speculate if they wish.
Women will not be forced to the front line.
Ukraine is still holding its own.
AND
Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
The war goes on.
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
Or was it a nuke? Not a nuke. If it was a nuke the blast wave would have probably killed them and if that didn't get them the entire area would be lite up like a Christmas with all the radiation released from the blast. :hidechair:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1243441-did-a-tactical-nuke-just-go-off-in-ukraine-big-explosion-rocks-donetsk/
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
Or was it a nuke? Not a nuke. If it was a nuke the blast wave would have probably killed them and if that didn't get them the entire area would be lite up like a Christmas with all the radiation released from the blast. :hidechair:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1243441-did-a-tactical-nuke-just-go-off-in-ukraine-big-explosion-rocks-donetsk/
Some 20 grad systems and 30 odd trailers of missiles. It was a hell of a bang. But not nuclear.
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
Or was it a nuke? Not a nuke. If it was a nuke the blast wave would have probably killed them and if that didn't get them the entire area would be lite up like a Christmas with all the radiation released from the blast. :hidechair:
No, it was not a nuke... all bombs that land on the ground, or explosions, give off a mushroom cloud style formation - it is due to the explosion, convection, etc.
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The easiest "field test" to determine whether a nuke was deployed is to check the electronics in the surrounding area. Considering there is video footage of the explosion in the immediate vicinity I think we have our answer.
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
Or was it a nuke? Not a nuke. If it was a nuke the blast wave would have probably killed them and if that didn't get them the entire area would be lite up like a Christmas with all the radiation released from the blast. :hidechair:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1243441-did-a-tactical-nuke-just-go-off-in-ukraine-big-explosion-rocks-donetsk/
Some 20 grad systems and 30 odd trailers of missiles. It was a hell of a bang. But not nuclear.
Strangely enough, the locals do not report 200 dead terrorists, but 200 dead civilians as in women and children.
Also not weapons-cache, but a chemical plant making explosives for the mining industry stockpile blew up.
Mark.
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WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
-
WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
I can see the war becoming more violent. After all in Chechnya and surrounding areas Putin razed towns and killed 100,000+, mostly innocents, to pacify the separatists. Then he installed a puppet government obedient to Moscow to rule the area. To achieve his objective of Novorossiya why wouldn't Putin do the same in Ukraine?
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WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
This video is already a few weeks old and all the POW in it are Ukrainian! Givi: what a brave man he is.
-
WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
This video is already a few weeks old and all the POW in it are Ukrainian! Givi: what a brave man he is.
I can understand the hatred between Northern Irish Protestants and Catholics grounded in several centuries of murderous vendettas that would make Sicilians blush.
The Russians and Ukrainians share a common faith and similar culture yet the hatreds seem as extreme as the ancient Irish grudges. Outside of Soviet Era resentments what else is driving this RU UA extreme mutual hatred?
-
WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
This video is already a few weeks old and all the POW in it are Ukrainian! Givi: what a brave man he is.
I can understand the hatred between Northern Irish Protestants and Catholics grounded in several centuries of murderous vendettas that would make Sicilians blush.
The Russians and Ukrainians share a common faith and similar culture yet the hatreds seem as extreme as the ancient Irish grudges. Outside of Soviet Era resentments what else is driving this RU UA extreme mutual hatred?
The hatred is between Ukrainians. This why peace will be difficult to achieve.
It's doubtful Ukraine will be united again.
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I can understand the hatred between Northern Irish Protestants and Catholics grounded in several centuries of murderous vendettas that would make Sicilians blush.
The Russians and Ukrainians share a common faith and similar culture yet the hatreds seem as extreme as the ancient Irish grudges. Outside of Soviet Era resentments what else is driving this RU UA extreme mutual hatred?
Great wording, Cuffy...
That's my question too (and pretty much everyone else's :( ).
The hatred is between Ukrainians. This why peace will be difficult to achieve.
It's doubtful Ukraine will be united again.
I don't understand it, it's beyond my comprehension :( I watched the news last night, i cried my eyes out, it all looks like Sarajevo at the time... Goodness, why?! :(
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Truth be told when the fighting stops and damage is repaired so that people's lives get back to normal then coexistence and normal life will resume.
Of course there will be distrust and there will be the mentally damaged loons going round retaining hatreds but the reality is that most people just want to live a life that has home, spouse, kids, money and work and relaxation.
If what some folks say about ongoing hatred were true then Northern Ireland would not be as it is, Japanese visitors to the US would be spat upon or worse and Germans certainly would not be welcome in most of Europe. None of these things are true though and they were not very soon after the end of the hostilities that took place.
Right now though people are angry and scared, including the military.
But here's a few truths:
1) The Novorossians do not want to unite with Russia - their political and economic choices make that most unlikely.
2) The Russians want a united Ukraine
3) The Ukrainians want a united Ukraine
4) Europe wants a united Ukraine
5) The ONLY actor here who wants a disunited Ukraine is the USA and they won't do anything to enforce it, other than trying to keep the pot boiling.
6) Novorossia will have greater economic and political freedom as part of Ukraine than it would in Russia.
7) Novorossia is not viable as an independent state but is quite valuable as part of a unified Ukraine.
The only party that is now promoting war is the Ukrainian government and if they keep it up there will be a coup and (relative) peace.
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Truth be told when the fighting stops and damage is repaired so that people's lives get back to normal then coexistence and normal life will resume.
Of course there will be distrust and there will be the mentally damaged loons going round retaining hatreds but the reality is that most people just want to live a life that has home, spouse, kids, money and work and relaxation.
If what some folks say about ongoing hatred were true then Northern Ireland would not be as it is, Japanese visitors to the US would be spat upon or worse and Germans certainly would not be welcome in most of Europe. None of these things are true though and they were not very soon after the end of the hostilities that took place.
Right now though people are angry and scared, including the military.
But here's a few truths:
1) The Novorossians do not want to unite with Russia - their political and economic choices make that most unlikely.
2) The Russians want a united Ukraine
3) The Ukrainians want a united Ukraine
4) Europe wants a united Ukraine
5) The ONLY actor here who wants a disunited Ukraine is the USA and they won't do anything to enforce it, other than trying to keep the pot boiling.
6) Novorossia will have greater economic and political freedom as part of Ukraine than it would in Russia.
7) Novorossia is not viable as an independent state but is quite valuable as part of a unified Ukraine.
The only party that is now promoting war is the Ukrainian government and if they keep it up there will be a coup and (relative) peace.
Interesting thoughts. Hope it can be achieved.
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The Ukrainian army are going to be visiting Russia, well actually they should already be there. As part of an ongoing treaty arrangement the Ukrainians are, between the 9th and 12 of February going to be inspecting the Rostov region covering about 9,000 square miles.
The purpose is to see what military activity is taking place and to ensure that it does not break any agreements between the two countries.
Rostov is the region where Russian humanitarian convoys are marshaled and where one might expect to find evidence, if it exists, of unauthorised transit of military equipment into the region under attack by Kiev.
Oh, this is a regular thing - the last visit was in March last year and, of course nothing untoward was found - just it has not been found when treaty overflights have been made on multiple occasions by other treaty signatories.
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I am afraid we may be glossing over the national security fact that Mother Russia needs a reliable land bridge to its new Crimea holdings ASAP in order to offset loss of tourism revenues and increase ability to keep utilities and supply lines reliable and secure to support both the Crimean cities and Russian military bases.
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I am afraid we may be glossing over the national security fact that Mother Russia needs a reliable land bridge to its new Crimea holdings ASAP in order to offset loss of tourism revenues and increase ability to keep utilities and supply lines reliable and secure to support both the Crimean cities and Russian military bases.
It probably needs to settle down some before the final push to draw the new borders happens.
Obama isn't dumb enough to cross the line in the sand Russia has drawn in recent weeks (well, we hope not). If autonomy is settled for a part of Novorossiya for now, likely tomorrow in Belarus, the new land is established and Kiev will climb down. From there it will be an easier push bit by bit to get the land bridge later.
None of this would have been necessary had the EU/US not moved to overthrow the elected president. Just saying. :eeekk:
In other news, I read the US has had a big climb down on Cuba today, the first since the 60's. Now its all opening up slowly and even Netflix are in there. Afraid Putin might cosy up to the Commies perhaps after watching him schmooze Egypt today as expected? Get in first maybe? A Russian base in Cuba would be just as much fun [not] as NATO in Crimea. Food for thought..... did someone mention spheres of influence in ones own backyard?
Time to book a holiday to Cuba before its full of McDonalds and Yank tourists tipping everyone 40%.
-
WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
This video is already a few weeks old and all the POW in it are Ukrainian! Givi: what a brave man he is.
I can understand the hatred between Northern Irish Protestants and Catholics grounded in several centuries of murderous vendettas that would make Sicilians blush.
The Russians and Ukrainians share a common faith and similar culture yet the hatreds seem as extreme as the ancient Irish grudges. Outside of Soviet Era resentments what else is driving this RU UA extreme mutual hatred?
The hatred is between Ukrainians.
all our family and all my travels experience there says this supposed hatred before march 2014 is BS ,
iv never felt or noted any hatred between ukrainians or russian speakers in ukraine ,
SX
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Truth be told when the fighting stops and damage is repaired so that people's lives get back to normal then coexistence and normal life will resume.
Of course there will be distrust and there will be the mentally damaged loons going round retaining hatreds but the reality is that most people just want to live a life that has home, spouse, kids, money and work and relaxation.
If what some folks say about ongoing hatred were true then Northern Ireland would not be as it is, Japanese visitors to the US would be spat upon or worse and Germans certainly would not be welcome in most of Europe. None of these things are true though and they were not very soon after the end of the hostilities that took place.
Right now though people are angry and scared, including the military.
But here's a few truths:
1) The Novorossians do not want to unite with Russia - their political and economic choices make that most unlikely.
Certainly the people in Donetsk People’s Republic and the Lugansk Region would disagree with you. Remember the referendum in May, 2014? Both regions voted overwhelming for sovereignty and then asked to be annexed by Russia.
http://rt.com/news/158276-referendum-results-east-ukraine/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-walks-cautious-line-eastern-ukraine-referendums-donetsk-Lugansk/
2) The Russians want a united Ukraine
Putin keeps saying that but few in power in the west believe him.
3) The Ukrainians want a united Ukraine
Once again remember the vote in May in Donetsk and Lugansk where they voted overwhelming for sovereignty? Those two regions don't appear to want a united Ukraine.
4) Europe wants a united Ukraine
The powers that be in Europe are certainly trying but when the armed groups in charge in Donetsk and Lugansk say they want sovereignty it's hard to get them to reverse course.
5) The ONLY actor here who wants a disunited Ukraine is the USA and they won't do anything to enforce it, other than trying to keep the pot boiling.
Any links to prove that?
6) Novorossia will have greater economic and political freedom as part of Ukraine than it would in Russia.
Hard to say. Both countries are so corrupt it's hard to predict the future. Currently, even with sanctions, Russia is in far better economic shape than Ukraine so IMHO Novorossia would appear to have a better chance with Russia at least in the short term.
7) Novorossia is not viable as an independent state but is quite valuable as part of a unified Ukraine.
Novorossia is valuable as part of Ukraine but I don't know where you get the idea that it is not viable as an independent state. There are many countries in the world that have a smaller population and land mass than Novorossia. There are valuable resources and industries in Novorossia that offer employment and would be even better if upgraded.
With the southern coast of Ukraine, including the port of Odessa as part of Novorossia and all southern parts of Ukraine bordering Moldova that would give Novorossia a significant coast line and major ports of the Black Sea. The resulting land bridge to Crimea would mean tourism and commerce from transportation to and from Crimea and Russia. With competent politicians in charge Novorossia could easily exist as an independent state.
The only party that is now promoting war is the Ukrainian government and if they keep it up there will be a coup and (relative) peace.
The pro-Russian separatist leadership in Donetsk and Lugansk are also actively promoting war and indiscriminately killing civilians in their area and nearby parts of Ukraine. If the reports in western media are true Russia is also actively killing Ukrainians outside and inside the Donetsk and Lugansk regions.
Andrew, as I've shown what you post is mostly BS with very little truth added. Why do you keep posting BS?
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http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ottawa-plans-to-provide-valuable-satellite-images-to-ukrainian-forces-1.2232388
Canada intends to provide satellite based information on the location of military equipment in order to help UA forces.
While it seems the powerful European leaders have sunk to a new cowardly low with regards to appeasing Putin, Canada and the US are at least trying to be helpful. I can not believe how these leaders in Europe are just bending over. What happened in Europe prior to the declaration of war on Germany 76 years ago, seems forgotten. Putin continues to expand, and the Chamberlin like politicians provide nothing.
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The Canadians might provide useless images of where Novorossian materiel WAS but just like the CIA they will not provide the useful live information to Ukrainian forces because the SBU and military are so riddled with leaks and plants that there's no way theyd want to allow that capability to be handed over to Russia. ;)
Anyway, Right Sector coup coming in 3... 2... 1... Now that Poroshenko has agreed to a ceasefire, a withdrawal from today's front lines and substantive permanent legislation in respect of the independent status of Novorossia within Ukraine.
That'll not be agreed to by the nationalists or USA no matter what the EU, Novorossians or RUssia want.
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Not much released yet, but talks of a cease fire to take effect Saturday.
I hope this one holds. Funny on Canadian news today, Putin is denying any involvement in Ukraine.
Canada is talking about joining the US in helping Ukraine defend itself.
No decision has been finalized yet.
http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3353046-leaders-minsk-marathon-ukraine-peace-talks.html#.1258-stage-hero1-8
Andrew, you should read up on Canada's electronic capabilities before commenting.
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NS1, let us put it this way. The Americans, from what I have seen, do not provide provide live data for exactly the reason I gave. It is not a matter of capability but a matter of professionalism. ;)
If you are sure that the Canadians are even more foolish than the US are being then, yes, live data will be provided. If the people who manage Canada's intelligence are not stupid they will provide delayed intel - intel that is not much use when dealing with a mobile battlefield. ;)
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NS1, let us put it this way. The Americans, from what I have seen, do not provide provide live data for exactly the reason I gave. It is not a matter of capability but a matter of professionalism. ;)
If you are sure that the Canadians are even more foolish than the US are being then, yes, live data will be provided. If the people who manage Canada's intelligence are not stupid they will provide delayed intel - intel that is not much use when dealing with a mobile battlefield. ;)
Based on the news here it would be data to systems supplied for protection from being bombed.
Which to some degree has already been happening, the US gave Ukraine 3 of these systems already.
One of which has been destroyed. It will be for military use, not public.
If agreed upon, the US and Canada will supply equipment and training for this equipment.
If anyone else is going to help, I am not sure. I would suspect much will depend on what
happens in Belarus.
Even if a peace deal is struck, Ukraine will rebuild its military and I would bet they will get plenty of help
in coming years, so if any future attacks they will be far better prepared.
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The only party that is now promoting war is the Ukrainian government and if they keep it up there will be a coup and (relative) peace.
Anyway, Right Sector coup coming in 3... 2... 1... Now that Poroshenko has agreed to a ceasefire, a withdrawal from today's front lines and substantive permanent legislation in respect of the independent status of Novorossia within Ukraine.
Andrew, can you explain this please, appears contradictory.
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A deal has been reached, although I am not sure how Russia will let the rebels know, as they have nothing to do with it.http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3353162-putin-leaders-agree-deal-ukraine-cease-fire.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
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NS1, let us put it this way. The Americans, from what I have seen, do not provide provide live data for exactly the reason I gave. It is not a matter of capability but a matter of professionalism. ;)
If you are sure that the Canadians are even more foolish than the US are being then, yes, live data will be provided. If the people who manage Canada's intelligence are not stupid they will provide delayed intel - intel that is not much use when dealing with a mobile battlefield. ;)
Based on the news here it would be data to systems supplied for protection from being bombed.
Which to some degree has already been happening, the US gave Ukraine 3 of these systems already.
One of which has been destroyed. It will be for military use, not public.
If agreed upon, the US and Canada will supply equipment and training for this equipment.
If anyone else is going to help, I am not sure. I would suspect much will depend on what
happens in Belarus.
Even if a peace deal is struck, Ukraine will rebuild its military and I would bet they will get plenty of help
in coming years, so if any future attacks they will be far better prepared.
With the infiltration of Russian agents into the Ukraine army and security/intelligence agencies I wondered if this wasn't the reason the US has been holding to date. Why provide Russia with modern technology via Ukraine plants. I suspect if Ukraine was not so entwined with Russia, assistance may have been quicker.
The counter to that is neither the US or Canada are providing their latest technology but rather just enough to allow Ukraine to defend itself.
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NS1, let us put it this way. The Americans, from what I have seen, do not provide provide live data for exactly the reason I gave. It is not a matter of capability but a matter of professionalism. ;)
If you are sure that the Canadians are even more foolish than the US are being then, yes, live data will be provided. If the people who manage Canada's intelligence are not stupid they will provide delayed intel - intel that is not much use when dealing with a mobile battlefield. ;)
Based on the news here it would be data to systems supplied for protection from being bombed.
Which to some degree has already been happening, the US gave Ukraine 3 of these systems already.
One of which has been destroyed. It will be for military use, not public.
If agreed upon, the US and Canada will supply equipment and training for this equipment.
If anyone else is going to help, I am not sure. I would suspect much will depend on what
happens in Belarus.
Even if a peace deal is struck, Ukraine will rebuild its military and I would bet they will get plenty of help
in coming years, so if any future attacks they will be far better prepared.
With the infiltration of Russian agents into the Ukraine army and security/intelligence agencies I wondered if this wasn't the reason the US has been holding to date. Why provide Russia with modern technology via Ukraine plants. I suspect if Ukraine was not so entwined with Russia, assistance may have been quicker.
The counter to that is neither the US or Canada are providing their latest technology but rather just enough to allow Ukraine to defend itself.
Could be, but these units rely on live sat link. if lost/stolen whatever, cut the link to that unit it becomes a boat anchor.
the data is controlled remotely.
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A deal has been reached, although I am not sure how Russia will let the rebels know, as they have nothing to do with it.http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3353162-putin-leaders-agree-deal-ukraine-cease-fire.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
Funny how Putes can agree a ceasefire when his troops are not in Ukraine, allegedly!.....but anyway, it's going to bugger up their holidays, they might now have to cut them short (:)
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A deal has been reached, although I am not sure how Russia will let the rebels know, as they have nothing to do with it.http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3353162-putin-leaders-agree-deal-ukraine-cease-fire.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2
Funny how Putes can agree a ceasefire when his troops are not in Ukraine, allegedly!.....but anyway, it's going to bugger up their holidays, they might now have to cut them short (:)
Chris, that has been a sticking point all along and was again last night. The Ukrainians, including, last night, Poroshenko refused to deal with the Novorossians. Last night the leaders of the DPR and LPR were wheeled into what was described as a 'contact group' which STILL contained no representative from Ukraine.
For many months the Russian position has been that a settlement can not be reached without face to face discussions with the Novorossian leadership. I am sure that Novorossia had granted Russia and Putin plenipotentiary authority enabling him to make agreements on their behalf and from what I have read of initial reports the agreement reached is pretty close to what was understood to be the best compromise expected before the meeting took place.
1) Ukrainian withdrawal to a line behind the current front lines.
2) Substantive legislation by the end of 2015 in respect of permanent Novorossian autonomy
3) End of economic blockade
4) Amnesties
I did not see anything about border control except that Putin had said that a decision on that point was down to the Novorossians so I guess it has been left in abeyance.
The point is probably moot though. Poroshenko has no power to impose a cease fire on the forces other than parts of the National Guard and perhaps the army The nationalist militias have already said they will not support a cease fire or settlement and have been setting up a parallel command and control system. There's likely to be another coup and I'd bet that Russia has made Poroshenko and his family guarantees of best effort to keep them safe when the balloon goes up.
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I'm just hearing Putin was questioned at customs at Minsk airport by security.
He was asked "Occupation?"
He answered "No, just visiting..."
.
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WARNING PARTS OF THIS VIDEO ARE EXTREMELY BLOODY AND GRAFFIC.
But you will see what happens to those that carry the wrong passport.
If you are a POW, you most likely will become a casualty,
The casualties are treated like trash
There's extreme hatred between both sides and one can see why it will be difficult to find peace.
AGAIN WARNING THIS VIDEO IS VERY DISTURBING.
And as in most cases the war crimes will never make it to the courts. What I find interesting in many of these videos is when the public starts ranting its always civilians over the age of 50. Where are the youth from the pre Soviet days?
The Canadians might provide useless images of where Novorossian materiel WAS but just like the CIA they will not provide the useful live information to Ukrainian forces
Andy read the link and learn. Stop spreading your propaganda and making yourself look foolish. You should stop lying.
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"Occupation?"
"No, just visiting..."
Oh, c'mmon, Ste, it's an old Russian joke, no V.V. or any specific country featured ;)
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii618/Ruth_Stefanowitz/BG_zpsbjd6bg5g.jpg)
And as in most cases the war crimes will never make it to the courts.
And even if they do... Croats got away with "Storm" http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/croatia-got-away-with-ethnic-cleansing-again ; as a rule, Muslims don't get indicted at The Hague (at least those who committed atrocities during ex Yu wars), so don't keep your hopes high about the tribunal (:)
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Don, what are you going on about. Do YOU know that the Canadian intel folk are definitely providing live information? If so I'd be happy to see the report stating such.
Given that any data they shared would probably be sourced from US satellites it seems unlikely that the US would allow Canada to be more 'generous' than they themselves would be.
If my surmise is incorrect then I will learn. Chances are that I won't be and YOU will, for a change, learn something.
I think the words 'propaganda' and 'lies' do not men what you think they mean.
Back in sensible land; because amnesty has been offered to ALL participants and, from what I saw of the text of the agreement, without exceptions there will be no war crime investigations for ANY cases.
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Don, what are you going on about. Do YOU know that the Canadian intel folk are definitely providing live information? If so I'd be happy to see the report stating such.
Given that any data they shared would probably be sourced from US satellites it seems unlikely that the US would allow Canada to be more 'generous' than they themselves would be.
Andy thanks for again starting out by mentioning my name, its about the only time I read your posts. Now I have things to do that are more fulfilling than trying to get you to at least click on a link I provided. If you read you will learn instead of posting your usual blathering babble. That link has these words in blue, ''Twice a day, the satellite.'' It will take you to the CSA, and a short video on the Canuck satellite.
Since I want you to learn you can click on this link as well, http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?binId=1.810415
If you wish you can fast forward to the 4:00 mark
Now click off the Chicken Little sites that you use to dream up your words to the masses, and learn. It is all I can offer to help you. Andy, please don't disappoint me any more than you already have.
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
For an event that was alleged to have claimed some 200 lives this story didn't even register a blip on UK news anywhere that I could see - was it a mistake, an unconfirmed story, Ukrainian propaganda or something else?
Just curious really ???
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There was an huge explosion in the Debaltseve region.
Lugansk was also hit hard during the night.
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
For an event that was alleged to have claimed some 200 lives this story didn't even register a blip on UK news anywhere that I could see - was it a mistake, an unconfirmed story, Ukrainian propaganda or something else?
Just curious really ???
It was, apparently, a Ukrainian ballistic missile - not nuclear.
There were no deaths.
It was a real thing but, no, not well covered.
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Donholio, so I was right then. Not live data.
Thanks for updating yourself. ;)
To help you further.
The satellite produces only 3.5 minutes of imaging per orbit and only has high resolution over a very small area. This is a thing that confuses people about high resolution imaging. The field of view is tiny. Only about 500m wide. That means that unless the users of the satellite already know where something is they can not see it.
The thing was designed for tasks such as cartography where high resolution but low mobility is a requirement. If you want to know the relationship of a tree to a road it is great. To see where 'Russian' tanks are and what they are doing - not so much. To see what is in a military base is - very good - once you know where it is.
If somebody knows where a thing is they can get images with 1m resolution. If they don't know where it is, they'll never find it. Plus, of course the data has to be analysed before providing the filtered output.
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Ukraine just bombed a major arms depot in donetsk that was seen in outer space. They believe it killed at least 200 terrorists and other Russians.
For an event that was alleged to have claimed some 200 lives this story didn't even register a blip on UK news anywhere that I could see - was it a mistake, an unconfirmed story, Ukrainian propaganda or something else?
Just curious really ???
There was no question of the explosion of course. I was going by social media for info on the destruction of military equipment and personnel. Social media is often most accurate in my opinion though you still need a bit of common sense when picking and choosing.
Interesting that the first government comment was to deny having anything to do with it. Interesting that not much more was said about it later. I still hold with the social media accounts that a crap-load of weapons were destroyed (along with the factory) until there is evidence to show otherwise. Those people who destroyed it probably knew best what was there.
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The wife and friends don't believe in the new agreement, they don't think it will happen.
Or it will only last a week or two. Most are very pessimistic.
The security and check points have increase all over Ukraine,
even more around Kiev and Airports.
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To help you further.
The satellite produces only 3.5 minutes of imaging per orbit and only has high resolution over a very small area. This is a thing that confuses people about high resolution imaging. The field of view is tiny. Only about 500m wide. That means that unless the users of the satellite already know where something is they can not see it.
The thing was designed for tasks such as cartography where high resolution but low mobility is a requirement. If you want to know the relationship of a tree to a road it is great. To see where 'Russian' tanks are and what they are doing - not so much. To see what is in a military base is - very good - once you know where it is.
If somebody knows where a thing is they can get images with 1m resolution. If they don't know where it is, they'll never find it. Plus, of course the data has to be analysed before providing the filtered output.
You need to stop making things up Andy. You were wrong from the first comment you made on the satellite, and yet you continue in this dishonest manner. My time is up.
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How bad is the corruption in Ukraine? It's so bad that the Ukrainian government has passed a number of anti-corruption laws and even created a new investigative body called the National Corruption Bureau. Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko has deliberately appointed a number of non-Ukrainians to posts such as head the new anti-corruption bureau.
Poroshenko boasted of his new cabinet, including a former U.S. citizen at the helm of the Ministry of Finance; a Lithuanian at the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade, and a Georgian tapped to oversee Ukraine's health system.
Will it work? Who knows. Ukraine is one of the few countries in Europe even more corrupt than Russia and that's saying something.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nikolas-kozloff/welcome-to-ukraine-one-of_b_6689734.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
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The corruption index rank for the Ukraine is 142 and the index rank for Russia is 136. This is out 175 countries with the with the worlds worse country being ranked 175.
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
Yes I bet he is making changes as we are pretty close to Euro maden three if the precieved lever of corruption does not go down in the Ukrine.
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Big article with Putin saying that Russia will find adequate response to any pressure from outside. Did Putin every stop to think that maybe Ukraine feels the same way and is responding to Russia's pressure?
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150220/1018548529.html
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Big article with Putin saying that Russia will find adequate response to any pressure from outside. Did Putin every stop to think that maybe Ukraine feels the same way and is responding to Russia's pressure?
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150220/1018548529.html
Turn off that CNN and Fox. :coffeeread:
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Big article with Putin saying that Russia will find adequate response to any pressure from outside. Did Putin every stop to think that maybe Ukraine feels the same way and is responding to Russia's pressure?
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150220/1018548529.html
Turn off that CNN and Fox. :coffeeread:
And turn on RT! :evilgrin0002:
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http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukraine-canadas-unofficial-war/article23208129/?service=mobile
http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/canada/2015/02/24/canada-quietly-tiptoes-into-ukr :GRRRR:aine-russia-war-walkom.html
Canadian aid to Ukraine, comes in many ways!
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We just learned that FIL's information was recently turned over to the government by his employer for draft purposes. Not sure if this is occurring in other cities in Ukraine but it is the norm in Odessa. They are still stopping men on the street and asking for paperwork, sometimes the men are shanghaied on the spot.
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We just learned that FIL's information was recently turned over to the government by his employer for draft purposes. Not sure if this is occurring in other cities in Ukraine but it is the norm in Odessa. They are still stopping men on the street and asking for paperwork, sometimes the men are shanghaied on the spot.
It's happening all over, has been for some time now, we have many friends and relatives already had orders to report, it has been stepped up in the last 6 weeks, but a few we know were asked to report mid last year.
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Time for some people to exit stage right. As I recall the Russians are now allowing men of Ukrainian draft age to stay in Russia past the normal 30 day(?) limit. They may well come across friends they thought had gone on vacation or to work in Poland. ;)
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I know we had a special document for wife's son, so he could travel and leave the country. We were worried because of security in different areas including the
airport. They looked at paper worked, raised eyebrows and said, have a nice trip.
We have heard stories where young men had been taken off trains or buses
and were put directly into the military.
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I know we had a special document for wife's son, so he could travel and leave the country. We were worried because of security in different areas including the
airport. They looked at paper worked, raised eyebrows and said, have a nice trip.
We have heard stories where young men had been taken off trains or buses
and were put directly into the military.
The common term for that is being "Shanghaied".
One of the lesser know reasons for the USA revolution was that US vessels were often stopped on the high seas by the British navy and their sailors were often pressed into service with the Crown's navy under severe conditions including meager rations, flogging and even keel hauling with the resultant tattered and drowned bodies hung up for display on deck as a warning to their ship mates.
It would be a tough decision to stay and be conscripted in Ukraine - support a Mobster influenced corrupt UA regime, OR a Mobster influenced tyrannical RU regime or escape to Europe and do menial labor while trying to get some sort of legal (student) etc visa status.
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I know we had a special document for wife's son, so he could travel and leave the country. We were worried because of security in different areas including the
airport. They looked at paper worked, raised eyebrows and said, have a nice trip.
We have heard stories where young men had been taken off trains or buses
and were put directly into the military.
The common term for that is being "Shanghaied".
One of the lesser know reasons for the USA revolution was that US vessels were often stopped on the high seas by the British navy and their sailors were often pressed into service with the Crown's navy under severe conditions including meager rations, flogging and even keel hauling with the resultant tattered and drowned bodies hung up for display on deck as a warning to their ship mates.
Wasn't that one of the causes of the War of 1812?
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I know we had a special document for wife's son, so he could travel and leave the country. We were worried because of security in different areas including the
airport. They looked at paper worked, raised eyebrows and said, have a nice trip.
We have heard stories where young men had been taken off trains or buses
and were put directly into the military.
The common term for that is being "Shanghaied".
One of the lesser know reasons for the USA revolution was that US vessels were often stopped on the high seas by the British navy and their sailors were often pressed into service with the Crown's navy under severe conditions including meager rations, flogging and even keel hauling with the resultant tattered and drowned bodies hung up for display on deck as a warning to their ship mates.
Wasn't that one of the causes of the War of 1812?
Oh yeah the extension of the Revolution...
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I know we had a special document for wife's son, so he could travel and leave the country. We were worried because of security in different areas including the
airport. They looked at paper worked, raised eyebrows and said, have a nice trip.
We have heard stories where young men had been taken off trains or buses
and were put directly into the military.
The common term for that is being "Shanghaied".
One of the lesser know reasons for the USA revolution was that US vessels were often stopped on the high seas by the British navy and their sailors were often pressed into service with the Crown's navy under severe conditions including meager rations, flogging and even keel hauling with the resultant tattered and drowned bodies hung up for display on deck as a warning to their ship mates.
Wasn't that one of the causes of the War of 1812?
Oh yeah the extension of the Revolution...
That is simplifying things a bit.
The 1812 war was part of a large "world war' they were battles that were part of the larger Napoleonic wars of Europe that also involved Russia. Giving rise to Tchaikovsky 1812 overture. It was in fact the same time from that gave America the Star Spangled Banner after the bombardment of Baltimore. The Napoleonic battles brought out heroes such Issac Hull as well as Lord Nelson who died in battle. There was also the debacle of the Battle of Borodino that ended in the retreat from Russia by the French.
While Washington D.C. was more or less razed, the war offers some insights to military powers over stretching there limits and powers and resulting in a solid thumping for the Frech.
NB: Perhaps Manny should send a short history to Vlady?
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226
Putin planned to take Crimea from the beginning.
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No surprise there. In time he'll say the same thing about Eastern Ukraine, also to the surprise of no one. (:)
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It would be a tough decision to stay and be conscripted in Ukraine - support a Mobster influenced corrupt UA regime, OR a Mobster influenced tyrannical RU regime or escape to Europe and do menial labor while trying to get some sort of legal (student) etc visa status.
Yes, very tough decision and one that most men we know in Ukraine are trying to sit out as long as possible. None are leaving. They are either too old, proud, or do not want to leave everything they know behind. Sergei Popov (retired Soviet soldier) sums it up best for those in our circles.
"I will be for Odessa, my motherland, against separatists or Russia," he says. "I don't agree with the government, but I would defend the people of Ukraine."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/03/05/odessa-ukraine-anxiety-over-russia-next-move/24363957/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/03/05/odessa-ukraine-anxiety-over-russia-next-move/24363957/)
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226
Putin planned to take Crimea from the beginning.
Not really a surprise. After Putin has seized a land bridge to Crimea and a land bridge to Moldova undeniable evidence will surface, if it hasn't happened previously, that Putin and Russia were behind Putin's puppets in eastern Ukraine.
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http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/putin-grants-russian-citizenship-to-35-military-age-ukrainian-men/517188.html
Time for some people to exit stage right. As I recall the Russians are now allowing men of Ukrainian draft age to stay in Russia past the normal 30 day(?) limit. They may well come across friends they thought had gone on vacation or to work in Poland. ;)
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226
Putin planned to take Crimea from the beginning.
Beginning of what? From when it was inevitable that previously made plans based upon previously games scenarios had to be dusted down? Note that nothing happened until it was known what the Crimea wanted. If the feeling had not been so positive then the chances are a different scenario would have been run at a later date because the intent of the EU and US had by the time of the coup become transparent.
Of course we all know that sensible powers, be they States, companies or other transnational bodies routinely look to the future and maintain contingency plans designed for particular contingencies; even in my own micro businesses we do the same - have plans for stuff that we hope will never happen and stuff that we'd very much like to happen.
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226
Putin planned to take Crimea from the beginning.
Beginning of what? From when it was inevitable that previously made plans based upon previously games scenarios had to be dusted down? Note that nothing happened until it was known what the Crimea wanted. If the feeling had not been so positive then the chances are a different scenario would have been run at a later date because the intent of the EU and US had by the time of the coup become transparent.
Of course we all know that sensible powers, be they States, companies or other transnational bodies routinely look to the future and maintain contingency plans designed for particular contingencies; even in my own micro businesses we do the same - have plans for stuff that we hope will never happen and stuff that we'd very much like to happen.
Andrew,
Maybe your micro business is not a good example.
I read your DORAB report and your contingency plan about PLM being the future.
How'd that work out for you?
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/02/the-story-of-a-russian-soldiers-war-in-ukraine-we-all-knew-what-we-had-to-do-and-what-could-happen/
Long, but detailed account of a Russian soldier's time fighting in Ukraine. :coffeeread:
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I tried to post video about dead Russian solders in buried in Russia that had stories from their parents but one seem to even want to see them and just clamed that their were no Regular Russians in the Ukraine. Then note in story how they painted the equipment and took it into the Ukraine.
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http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226
Putin planned to take Crimea from the beginning.
Beginning of what? From when it was inevitable that previously made plans based upon previously games scenarios had to be dusted down? Note that nothing happened until it was known what the Crimea wanted. If the feeling had not been so positive then the chances are a different scenario would have been run at a later date because the intent of the EU and US had by the time of the coup become transparent.
Of course we all know that sensible powers, be they States, companies or other transnational bodies routinely look to the future and maintain contingency plans designed for particular contingencies; even in my own micro businesses we do the same - have plans for stuff that we hope will never happen and stuff that we'd very much like to happen.
Andrew,
Maybe your micro business is not a good example.
I read your DORAB report and your contingency plan about PLM being the future.
How'd that work out for you?
Tom Cat, I'm sure Andrew and Manny are praying that PLM rises from the ashes to go public and make each of them rich. Of course it's not going to happen. :GRRRR:
There are still copies of DOARB floating around the web and of course YouTube versions and Facebook pages still exist so Andrew obviously is hoping for a miracle. :laugh:
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/02/the-story-of-a-russian-soldiers-war-in-ukraine-we-all-knew-what-we-had-to-do-and-what-could-happen/
Long, but detailed account of a Russian soldier's time fighting in Ukraine. :coffeeread:
One more long fake on short legs wich contens so many mismatches to reality that I am too lazy to translate into English comments to that story composed by Kostyuchenko --but as you are so interested in events going in the Ukraina and Novorossia you would take a time to use traslator to get opposide point of view
here enjoy
http://stockinfocus.ru/2015/03/03/novye-priklyucheniya-buryatskix-tankistov-v-vospalennom-voobrazhenii-oppozicii/
PS an again shame on Americans services who are supposed to monitor that ariea --they are still unable to make any signle photo of all those Russian tanks BATTALIONS which are roaming here and there thorugh Russian --Ukrainian boarders --Shame on you Americams -- Some lesby girls could get a "proove" and you can't :P
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I tried to post video about dead Russian solders in buried in Russia that had stories from their parents but one seem to even want to see them and just clamed that their were no Regular Russians in the Ukraine. Then note in story how they painted the equipment and took it into the Ukraine.
Don't give up, comrade! Provide some video/photo with REGULAR Russians in the Ukraina , help CIA of yours -they need such a support from you as till now they failed to catch any such stuff :)
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I tried to post video about dead Russian solders in buried in Russia that had stories from their parents but one seem to even want to see them and just clamed that their were no Regular Russians in the Ukraine. Then note in story how they painted the equipment and took it into the Ukraine.
Don't give up, comrade! Provide some video/photo with REGULAR Russians in the Ukraina , help CIA of yours -they need such a support from you as till now they failed to catch any such stuff :)
Well, it is hardly likely given that the Ukrainian military high command say over and over that there is no regular army from Russia in Ukraine, that the Ukrainian SBU says the same thing, that the OSCE says they have seen no Russian military moving across the border and no armoured vehicles.
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Some one a while back posted foto's of a priest blessings soldiers with tanks, I want to say it was Lugansk. Everyone said but the there are no isignia's or markings on the tanks to prove or disprove they are Russian.
Only problem the tanks are/were Russian as it was a type that only Russia used. Seemed pretty clear to me that there were Russian military forces in former Ukraine.
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http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-army-s-military-equipment-captured-by-ukrainian-forces-showcased-in-new-Kiev-exhibition-410910.html
http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/06/ukraine-showcases-captured-russian-military-hardware/
Captured Russian military hardware :coffeeread:
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I tried to post video about dead Russian solders in buried in Russia that had stories from their parents but one seem to even want to see them and just clamed that their were no Regular Russians in the Ukraine. Then note in story how they painted the equipment and took it into the Ukraine.
Don't give up, comrade! Provide some video/photo with REGULAR Russians in the Ukraina , help CIA of yours -they need such a support from you as till now they failed to catch any such stuff :)
Someday you might realize that EVERY country makes mistakes politically and in the game of war-mongering, INCLUDING your country. Somehow I sense that day is still far off for you.
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I tried to post video about dead Russian solders in buried in Russia that had stories from their parents but one seem to even want to see them and just clamed that their were no Regular Russians in the Ukraine. Then note in story how they painted the equipment and took it into the Ukraine.
Don't give up, comrade! Provide some video/photo with REGULAR Russians in the Ukraina , help CIA of yours -they need such a support from you as till now they failed to catch any such stuff :)
Someday you might realize that EVERY country makes mistakes politically and in the game of war-mongering, INCLUDING your country. Somehow I sense that day is still far off for you.
What? :innocent: Are you trying to say me that for you that DAY already has come, And that you complitely understand now the role the USA have played in all war conflicts happened during last years all round the world and how much other countries had to pay for "mistakes" of Amеricans in their failed attempts to bring democracy to victims of one more tyranny ?
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http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-army-s-military-equipment-captured-by-ukrainian-forces-showcased-in-new-Kiev-exhibition-410910.html
http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/06/ukraine-showcases-captured-russian-military-hardware/
Captured Russian military hardware :coffeeread:
Nice attempt -- a decoration from the same opera a-ka Poroshenko with Russian soldiers passports and a piece of bus at EU tribune
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Some one a while back posted foto's of a priest blessings soldiers with tanks, I want to say it was Lugansk. Everyone said but the there are no isignia's or markings on the tanks to prove or disprove they are Russian.
Only problem the tanks are/were Russian as it was a type that only Russia used. Seemed pretty clear to me that there were Russian military forces in former Ukraine.
If I remember correctly, I shared a picture of Poroshenko standing in front of one of these Russian Only tanks at the time.
Think about it for a moment. If these tanks were present, there'd also be their support vehicles and personnel. There are not. There'd also be burned out support vehicles and dead bodies, there are not.
That's the problem that Mr and Mrs Unthinking Fantasist face. No physical evidence that would inevitably be present if the claims were correct. If NATO claims were correct there'd be around two divisions of tanks in Ukraine, go do the research on what that means in terms of support facilities, you'll start to understand.
Don't forget that there's no evidence from Open Skies over flights, OSCE monitoring of the borders and internally, the Ukraine military high command deny the presence of the Russian Army and so does the Ukrainian SBU. So, who you gonna believe when you actually sit down and think about it?
Tell us why the Ukrainian army would lie about the Russians NOT being there? Explain why the SBU would tell us the Russian army is not there. Why would the OSCE lie to us, given their paymasters?
It is easy to understand why NATO and the US would lie, they have an overwhelming interest in their 'point of view' but they remain unable to support their story with any evidence that passes even the most basic of credibility challenges.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report
Eventually the truth will be known :coffeeread:
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Some one a while back posted foto's of a priest blessings soldiers with tanks, I want to say it was Lugansk. Everyone said but the there are no isignia's or markings on the tanks to prove or disprove they are Russian.
Only problem the tanks are/were Russian as it was a type that only Russia used. Seemed pretty clear to me that there were Russian military forces in former Ukraine.
If I remember correctly, I shared a picture of Poroshenko standing in front of one of these Russian Only tanks at the time.
Think about it for a moment. If these tanks were present, there'd also be their support vehicles and personnel. There are not. There'd also be burned out support vehicles and dead bodies, there are not.
That's the problem that Mr and Mrs Unthinking Fantasist face. No physical evidence that would inevitably be present if the claims were correct. If NATO claims were correct there'd be around two divisions of tanks in Ukraine, go do the research on what that means in terms of support facilities, you'll start to understand.
Andrew where would the support facilities for the tanks be located? In territory held by Putin's puppet army, in areas under guard would be my guess. No photos would be allowed would also be my guess.
Any Russian tanks, such as the T-72 would be painted/designed to look like their Ukrainian military counterparts so how would anyone be able to distinguish between Russian and Ukrainian tanks?
As for no Russian tanks being seen in Russia, that isn't true. From the BBC. Joseph Dempsey, an IISS analyst, has studied video footage reportedly taken on 26 August in Sverdlovsk, Lugansk, in eastern Ukraine. The video shows a convoy of military vehicles. The mixed convoy includes at least three T-72B1 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) but it is the appearance of a lone, more modern T-72 variant (shown below) that is of particular significance.
This variant, distinguished by the prominent Kontakt-5 Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) arrangement - the boxes on the turret front - is commonly referred to by Western sources as the T-72BM.
It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77206000/jpg/_77206671_tanktank.jpg)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080
Don't forget that there's no evidence from Open Skies over flights,
Andrew surely you know that all Open Sky flights are conducted with the full cooperation of the countries involved. This means that any flights over Russian territory would involved Russian officials who would know all details about the flight. For instance, at least 72 hours advance notice must be given. Russia would be given a copy of the flight plan and details of all sensors on board the plane.
Do you really think Russia would be crossing the border while there was an announced Open Skies flight in the area?
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/openskies
OSCE monitoring of the borders and internally,
According to a Russian media outlet, as of December 2/14 "The OSCE currently monitors only two checkpoints at border crossings in Ukraine’s Donetsk and Lugansk regions."
This leaves plenty of opportunities for Russian military forces to cross into Ukraine without being observed.
http://sputniknews.com/politics/20141202/1015394575.html
the Ukraine military high command deny the presence of the Russian Army and so does the Ukrainian SBU. So, who you gonna believe when you actually sit down and think about it?
Tell us why the Ukrainian army would lie about the Russians NOT being there? Explain why the SBU would tell us the Russian army is not there. Why would the OSCE lie to us, given their paymasters?
Links? The Ukrainian president has said repeatedly that the Russian military is in Ukraine.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/02/07/ukraine-president-holds-two-mitts-full-of-russian-passports-and-military-ids-dropped-by-soldiers/
It is easy to understand why NATO and the US would lie, they have an overwhelming interest in their 'point of view' but they remain unable to support their story with any evidence that passes even the most basic of credibility challenges.
Links? Evidence? What does the US and NATO have to gain by lying?
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report
Eventually the truth will be known :coffeeread:
I read a similar article in which a top US general points out all the stress on they are starting to see in the Russian military from just this small excursion into Ukraine. The amount of support personnel Russia has had to put behind this is immense. It is putting much more load on the military and resources than originally thought.
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I tried to post video about dead Russian solders in buried in Russia that had stories from their parents but one seem to even want to see them and just clamed that their were no Regular Russians in the Ukraine. Then note in story how they painted the equipment and took it into the Ukraine.
Don't give up, comrade! Provide some video/photo with REGULAR Russians in the Ukraina , help CIA of yours -they need such a support from you as till now they failed to catch any such stuff :)
Someday you might realize that EVERY country makes mistakes politically and in the game of war-mongering, INCLUDING your country. Somehow I sense that day is still far off for you.
What? :innocent: Are you trying to say me that for you that DAY already has come, And that you complitely understand now the role the USA have played in all war conflicts happened during last years all round the world and how much other countries had to pay for "mistakes" of Amеricans in their failed attempts to bring democracy to victims of one more tyranny ?
No. I'm saying that no country is without it's political and military missteps. Judging by the way you so consistently and vehemetly defend Russia's actions, I don't get the sense that you understand this concept.
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https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/03/11/vreditel-sobaka/
This report helps confirm the story the Russian tank driver told
Very interesting read :coffeeread:
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http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-363-ukrainian-commander-reports-ultimatum-from-russian-backed-separatists/#6845
Article with pictures of Russian tanks on the front lines
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report
Eventually the truth will be known :coffeeread:
I read a similar article in which a top US general points out all the stress on they are starting to see in the Russian military from just this small excursion into Ukraine. The amount of support personnel Russia has had to put behind this is immense. It is putting much more load on the military and resources than originally thought.
My late wife's elder sibling is an 20+ years doctor in the Russian military.
All I will say is since August there has been an increase in training accidents :-X
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Interesting read, but for those of us who have an open mind, not surprising.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/putins-narrative-on-crimea-annexation-takes-an-evolutionary-leap-383183.html
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Interesting read, but for those of us who have an open mind, not surprising.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/putins-narrative-on-crimea-annexation-takes-an-evolutionary-leap-383183.html
Its not surprising at all, it's par for the course, Putin always initially denies everything and then over time releases the truth and it tends to be what most assumed in the first place anyway, it happens time and time again, its nothing new.
PS when can you tell if Putin is lying, ............his lips move :chuckle:
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Interesting read, but for those of us who have an open mind, not surprising.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/putins-narrative-on-crimea-annexation-takes-an-evolutionary-leap-383183.html
Its not surprising at all, it's par for the course, Putin always initially denies everything and then over time releases the truth and it tends to be what most assumed in the first place anyway, it happens time and time again, its nothing new.
PS when can you tell if Putin is lying, ............his lips move :chuckle:
Funny how that works :chuckle:
The pro Russian crowd won't admit, even after Putin does :duh:
Gotta give Putin credit, not many can brainwash to that level:)
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Interesting read, but for those of us who have an open mind, not surprising.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/putins-narrative-on-crimea-annexation-takes-an-evolutionary-leap-383183.html
Its not surprising at all, it's par for the course, Putin always initially denies everything and then over time releases the truth and it tends to be what most assumed in the first place anyway, it happens time and time again, its nothing new.
PS when can you tell if Putin is lying, ............his lips move :chuckle:
Do you REALLY think that there was no plan for what happened in Crimea last year? Did you think that governments do not have LOTS of plans for all sorts of scenarios ready to be dusted off?
Chris, I KNOW you are not that stupid so why act as though you are?
I was writing about this at the time, it is blindingly obvious. A trigger occurred, probably that the coup leaders had already made it clear that they would take back Sevastopol. In any event the NATO side agreements to the EU association agreement were already known to be a problem.
So, don't get it into your head that the Russian government wanted to take Crimea, there was no good reason to do so until the line of the coup was crossed. At that point a whole load of scenarios would have been examined and the plan written out many years previously would have been adapted and implemented on very short notice.
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Interesting read, but for those of us who have an open mind, not surprising.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/putins-narrative-on-crimea-annexation-takes-an-evolutionary-leap-383183.html
Its not surprising at all, it's par for the course, Putin always initially denies everything and then over time releases the truth and it tends to be what most assumed in the first place anyway, it happens time and time again, its nothing new.
PS when can you tell if Putin is lying, ............his lips move :chuckle:
Do you REALLY think that there was no plan for what happened in Crimea last year? Did you think that governments do not have LOTS of plans for all sorts of scenarios ready to be dusted off?
Chris, I KNOW you are not that stupid so why act as though you are?
I was writing about this at the time, it is blindingly obvious. A trigger occurred, probably that the coup leaders had already made it clear that they would take back Sevastopol. In any event the NATO side agreements to the EU association agreement were already known to be a problem.
So, don't get it into your head that the Russian government wanted to take Crimea, there was no good reason to do so until the line of the coup was crossed. At that point a whole load of scenarios would have been examined and the plan written out many years previously would have been adapted and implemented on very short notice.
Maybe you should read the article. Or is Putin lying again?
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It quotes from a TV programme trailer that I have seen a translation of. As the Kiev Post is a Ukrainian based, foreign owned propaganda website, I'd rather wait to see the TV programme and see the comments in context.
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chris ,
the [derogatory term removed]s will not believe mr putin lies , or has done anything wrong , these guys are so enarmoured with the man their almost mini me,s of him
no matter what he does they will slip and slide around in the dirt to prove their view is correct , :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
SX
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Interesting read, but for those of us who have an open mind, not surprising.
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/putins-narrative-on-crimea-annexation-takes-an-evolutionary-leap-383183.html
Its not surprising at all, it's par for the course, Putin always initially denies everything and then over time releases the truth and it tends to be what most assumed in the first place anyway, it happens time and time again, its nothing new.
PS when can you tell if Putin is lying, ............his lips move :chuckle:
In any event the NATO side agreements to the EU association agreement were already known to be a problem.
Links? Evidence? Where in the EU Ukraine Association Agreement does it mention NATO? Are you just posting your usual made up BS?
So, don't get it into your head that the Russian government wanted to take Crimea, there was no good reason to do so
More BS. There were many good reasons for Russia to annex Crimea.
1. If Russia owns Crimea Russia never has to worry about moving its naval base currently in Crimea.
2. Owning Crimea gives Russia greater control of the Black Sea for political and military operations.
3. Owning Crimea gives Russia more coastline on the Black Sea and therefore more ownership of any offshore resources such as oil and gas.
4. Seizing Crimea gave Putin a nice bump in popularity.
5. Russia has considered Crimea part of Russia even when it was legally part of an independent Ukraine. Now Crimea is part of Russia.
6. Seizing Crimea serves as a warning to other parts of Russia that the Kremlin is willing to use force if necessary.
I'm sure there are many more reasons for Russia to annex Crimea.
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Crimea was one of the few places in the Ukraine that was cash positive where the taxes collected was more than the cost of having the area. The income from the naval base as well as the tourist industry made this a very important part of the Ukraine. Just months before the take over The Ukraine had just signed an contract to drill oil off Crimea which made this area extremely import to the Ukraine. The oil find off of Crimea would have made the Ukraine an oil and gas exporter.
What ever the believed reason for the War it has to be noted that what this annexation and the war in the east has effectually cut off Ukraine from most of it natural resources. It is hard to believe that this is not at least part of the reason for the war. If the Ukraine has no natural resources it will not be as valuable to the EU.
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chris ,
the [derogatory term removed]s will not believe mr putin lies , or has done anything wrong , these guys are so enarmoured with the man their almost mini me,s of him
no matter what he does they will slip and slide around in the dirt to prove their view is correct , :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
SX
:) Well, what we see here, is, if you learn a few tricks of logic and debate, you can refute the obvious, and defend the ridiculous and then, it gets to a point where they will defend their ideas to the death, rather than admit they’re wrong. Some people often fall into the trap of preferring to be right even if it’s based in delusion. tiphat
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
It's probably surplus equipment coming out of the Middle East. It's simply cheaper and easier to give it to Ukraine than ship it back to the States. It makes the US look like it's doing something to help and might get the EU to offer some type of aid.
Doesn't look like too much is lethal unless the Humvees also include guided missiles. Most of it will probably end up in the hands of Putin's puppet army soon enough.
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
It's probably surplus equipment coming out of the Middle East. It's simply cheaper and easier to give it to Ukraine than ship it back to the States. It makes the US look like it's doing something to help and might get the EU to offer some type of aid.
Doesn't look like too much is lethal unless the Humvees also include guided missiles. Most of it will probably end up in the hands of Putin's puppet army soon enough.
The $3 billion in lethal weaponry ain't nothing to sneeze at :)
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
It's probably surplus equipment coming out of the Middle East. It's simply cheaper and easier to give it to Ukraine than ship it back to the States. It makes the US look like it's doing something to help and might get the EU to offer some type of aid.
Doesn't look like too much is lethal unless the Humvees also include guided missiles. Most of it will probably end up in the hands of Putin's puppet army soon enough.
The $3 billion in lethal weaponry ain't nothing to sneeze at :)
That's true $3 billion in lethal weaponry could make a difference. However, the weaponry has to be in place so it can be used to prevent Putin (or his successor) from getting a land bridge to Crimea. Once Russia has a land bridge to Crimea, Russia will fortify the area so heavily NATO couldn't get them out of Ukraine.
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
It's probably surplus equipment coming out of the Middle East. It's simply cheaper and easier to give it to Ukraine than ship it back to the States. It makes the US look like it's doing something to help and might get the EU to offer some type of aid.
Doesn't look like too much is lethal unless the Humvees also include guided missiles. Most of it will probably end up in the hands of Putin's puppet army soon enough.
The $3 billion in lethal weaponry ain't nothing to sneeze at :)
That's true $3 billion in lethal weaponry could make a difference. However, the weaponry has to be in place so it can be used to prevent Putin (or his successor) from getting a land bridge to Crimea. Once Russia has a land bridge to Crimea, Russia will fortify the area so heavily NATO couldn't get them out of Ukraine.
One would think the United states won't announce their intentions to when lethal weaponry would be sent. If they did Russia could move in quickly and take what they want.
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The chief wussy has to give the OK to send it first.
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
It's probably surplus equipment coming out of the Middle East. It's simply cheaper and easier to give it to Ukraine than ship it back to the States. It makes the US look like it's doing something to help and might get the EU to offer some type of aid.
Doesn't look like too much is lethal unless the Humvees also include guided missiles. Most of it will probably end up in the hands of Putin's puppet army soon enough.
The $3 billion in lethal weaponry ain't nothing to sneeze at :)
That's true $3 billion in lethal weaponry could make a difference. However, the weaponry has to be in place so it can be used to prevent Putin (or his successor) from getting a land bridge to Crimea. Once Russia has a land bridge to Crimea, Russia will fortify the area so heavily NATO couldn't get them out of Ukraine.
One would think the United states won't announce their intentions to when lethal weaponry would be sent. If they did Russia could move in quickly and take what they want.
I doubt there's much that can be done about publicity. A vote in Congress probably has to be taken. Maybe Obama has to sign off on it. Can that be done in secret?
Then the supplies have to be moved to Ukraine. I'm sure Russia would be on the watch for that amount of military aid flowing into Ukraine.
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http://rt.com/news/240705-ukraine-poroshenko-weapons-europe/
Ukraine might get a little more help. :coffeeread:
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/13/nato-m13.html
Ukraine will soon have new toys to play with.
It's probably surplus equipment coming out of the Middle East. It's simply cheaper and easier to give it to Ukraine than ship it back to the States. It makes the US look like it's doing something to help and might get the EU to offer some type of aid.
Doesn't look like too much is lethal unless the Humvees also include guided missiles. Most of it will probably end up in the hands of Putin's puppet army soon enough.
The $3 billion in lethal weaponry ain't nothing to sneeze at :)
That's true $3 billion in lethal weaponry could make a difference. However, the weaponry has to be in place so it can be used to prevent Putin (or his successor) from getting a land bridge to Crimea. Once Russia has a land bridge to Crimea, Russia will fortify the area so heavily NATO couldn't get them out of Ukraine.
Whether we provide lethal weapons directly or not may not matter shortly. As soon as funds start arriving Ukraine can start producing it's own for less than ours. Just what the doctor ordered for those pesky armored vehicles coming from across the border.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/11/stugna-p-the-ukrainian-javelin/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/11/stugna-p-the-ukrainian-javelin/)
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Over the past few weeks the United states military has been active in Europe.
Military drills in Estonia soon Latvia, and currently in Bulgaria
http://rt.com/news/240565-us-bulgaria-military-drills/
It was announced there will be a convoy through Europe
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/13/world/army-convoy-through-europe/
Seems the United states is really trying to get Putin's attention.
Or might be getting ready for real military action?
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Here's a curious thing: Poroshenko arrives in Germany, in a Ukraine liveried plane, for talks with Merkel.
Article here: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150310/1019277031.html
The question would be, why?
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Interview with John McCain.
Ukraine can win the war
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Interview with John McCain.
Ukraine can win the war
Huh? ... as much as I admire John McCain he is channeling his internal Cold Warrior and it is time for him to retire. Rand Paul makes the most sense of all of them and is the only GOPer that can rally young people - only real chance the GOP has to diffuse the Hillary Juggynaught or was that Jiggynaught.
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http://uatoday.tv/politics/ukraine-posts-video-of-russian-troops-captured-fighting-in-east-ukraine-416110.html
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MINSK, Belarus (AP) — About 2,000 opposition activists marched Wednesday through the Belarusian capital to condemn Russia's policy and express solidarity with Ukraine.
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-ukraine-demonstrators-belarus-assail-russian-policy-182242569.html
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Interview with John McCain.
Ukraine can win the war
Huh? ... as much as I admire John McCain he is channeling his internal Cold Warrior and it is time for him to retire. Rand Paul makes the most sense of all of them and is the only GOPer that can rally young people - only real chance the GOP has to diffuse the Hillary Juggynaught or was that Jiggynaught.
Cuffy, McCain's commentary was SPOT ON my friend. He absolutely nailed it.
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I've yet to read anything McCain was 'spot on' about.
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MINSK, Belarus (AP) — About 2,000 opposition activists marched Wednesday through the Belarusian capital to condemn Russia's policy and express solidarity with Ukraine.
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-ukraine-demonstrators-belarus-assail-russian-policy-182242569.html
mhr7, the march in Belarus didn't happen. Obviously a CIA false flag operation. I checked RT, the official media of Manny and there's no mention of any protests in Belarus supporting Ukraine and protesting Russian policy. ???
Remember if it isn't mentioned in RT or an official announcement from Putin or the Kremlin, it didn't happen, western media be damned. :laugh:
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Lets get very real...
The F35 Joint Strike Fighter is grounded due to reliability problems - Experienced pilots are bringing their own bottled oxygen with them since the Oxygen masks are randomly yet frequently cutting out (Google It) due to faulty India Outsourced code - yes Indians setting up shop all over Washington DC - using source forge wherever possible and having junior software "engineers" rewrite (copy) or write untested code and they can't figure out where the problems are.
Things are flying death rocks and pilots do not want to risk their lives in them - the Obamunists are trying to do defense on the cheap and this is the result - whereas the latest MIGs from mother Russia are the new Top Guns.
Most of the rare earths to support Advanced Avionics now coming from China along with a lot of back doored chips.
Bottom line is Ukraines "Defense Industry" is severely underfunded and has not been retooled since Soviet Times AND Russia has NUKES and Ukraine does NOT.
With NO nukes you are just a weak puke - cold hard facts are so hard to swallow.
Putin: "The WEAK get BEAT" Ukraine is weak and they will get beat against Russia period - I am neither Pro Russia or Pro Ukraine - just calling them as I see them and my eyesight is 20/20.
Only way for Ukraine to checkmate a Draw is if Germany jumps in balls deep because Russia does not want to alienate its largest EU trading partners (Germany, France and Italy).
US RU trade is insignificant compared to the EU and Obama the fearless bleater will never risk direct nuclear war with Putin nor Beijing.
The WEAK get BEAT...
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If I decide to spend a month in Ukraine, maybe it would be to my advantage to spend part of the time in smaller cities in western Ukraine.
Has anyone tried Vinnytsya, Rivne or L'viv?
I've been to Lvov. It's a beautiful city.
I've yet to read anything McCain was 'spot on' about.
Then you might want to watch the interview again. Trust me, I don't care for the guy either, but his assessment of the Ukraine/NATO/Russia situation and Putin himself is spot on.
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The F35 Joint Strike Fighter is grounded due to reliability problems - Experienced pilots are bringing their own bottled oxygen with them since the Oxygen masks are randomly yet frequently cutting out (Google It) due to faulty India Outsourced code - yes Indians setting up shop all over Washington DC - using source forge wherever possible and having junior software "engineers" rewrite (copy) or write untested code and they can't figure out where the problems are.
Things are flying death rocks and pilots do not want to risk their lives in them - the Obamunists are trying to do defense on the cheap and this is the result - whereas the latest MIGs from mother Russia are the new Top Guns.
Aren't the latest Russian jets a joint project with India and have major problems themselves? I was under the impression Russia does not even have 5th generation fighters atm.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-what-a-bbqd-russian-5th-generation-fighter-look-1589559175 (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-what-a-bbqd-russian-5th-generation-fighter-look-1589559175)
And with the current economic crisis looks like major cuts are underway.
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-cutting-purchase-of-fifth-generation-fighters-2015-3 (http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-cutting-purchase-of-fifth-generation-fighters-2015-3)
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/04/03/russian-military-forces-shift-from-fighting-alongside-ukraine-rebels-to/
When will Russia finally admit their full participation in Ukraine?
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-soldiers-have-given-up-pretending-they-are-not-fighting-in-ukraine-2015-4
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http://uatoday.tv/politics/belarus-lukashenko-says-us-should-be-involved-in-ukraine-peace-process-419208.htm
Putin might have a different opinion :coffeeread:
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http://uatoday.tv/politics/belarus-lukashenko-says-us-should-be-involved-in-ukraine-peace-process-419208.htm
Putin might have a different opinion :coffeeread:
Lukashenko and Putin don't agree on some things especially things that relate to Belarus according to articles I've read. This is probably Lukashenko's way of telling Putin not to make decisions for Belarus.
Watch for Putin to move another tank battalion and jet fighter squadron into Belarus as part of a joint Belarus-Russia exercise. Then see if they ever leave. :laugh:
dead link. Here's some active links.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-31/belarus-leader-urges-u-s-involvement-in-ukraine-peace-process
http://uatoday.tv/politics/belarus-lukashenko-says-us-should-be-involved-in-ukraine-peace-process-419208.html
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Watch for Putin to move another tank battalion and jet fighter squadron into Belarus as part of a joint Belarus-Russia exercise. Then see if they ever leave. :laugh:
Maybe he learned something watching the US occupy Germany since WW2. They never went home either. Indeed, the US army recently had a celebratory occupation tour across eastern europe that finished in Germany. It was all terribly democratic of course, those in Czech who threw eggs and tomatoes were threatened with ten years jail.
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Looks like most folks in Czech republic welcomed the convoy :biggrin:
I highly doubt eggs and tomatoes will do much damage to a tank anyway :chuckle:
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Looks like most folks in Czech republic welcomed the convoy :biggrin:
I highly doubt eggs and tomatoes will do much damage to a tank anyway :chuckle:
Depends what you read: http://rt.com/news/243073-czech-protest-us-tanks/
I will correct myself on the eggs, it was only three years jail: http://rt.com/news/243221-czech-us-convoy-tomatoes-warnings/
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Looks like most folks in Czech republic welcomed the convoy :biggrin:
I highly doubt eggs and tomatoes will do much damage to a tank anyway :chuckle:
Depends what you read: http://rt.com/news/243073-czech-protest-us-tanks/
I will correct myself on the eggs, it was only three years jail: http://rt.com/news/243221-czech-us-convoy-tomatoes-warnings/
Just more Russian propaganda,
protests should they happen are just part of the freedom people enjoy, living outside of Russia.
It's doubtful anyone would spend time in jail maybe few days tops.
I'm willing to bet if a Russian convoy rolled into the Czech republic, there would be more than eggs and tomatoes waiting for them :)
Here seems to be a accurate account
http://www.rferl.mobi/a/us-convoy-czech-republic-supporters-virtual-opponents/26928346.html
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Watch for Putin to move another tank battalion and jet fighter squadron into Belarus as part of a joint Belarus-Russia exercise. Then see if they ever leave. :laugh:
Maybe he learned something watching the US occupy Germany since WW2. They never went home either. Indeed, the US army recently had a celebratory occupation tour across eastern europe that finished in Germany. It was all terribly democratic of course, those in Czech who threw eggs and tomatoes were threatened with ten years jail.
Why did the Americans stay after WW2? Could it be because the USSR was such a threat and Europe couldn't defend itself?
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Maybe he learned something watching the US occupy Germany since WW2. They never went home either.
You keep deleting / ignoring this question..... how many US tanks were left in Europe in 2013.... NONE
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Maybe he learned something watching the US occupy Germany since WW2. They never went home either.
You keep deleting / ignoring this question..... how many US tanks were left in Europe in 2013.... NONE
U.S. sends 'Ironhorse' tanks to NATO's nervous Baltic front line(Reuters)
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http://novorossia.today/exciting-video-of-donetsk-pre-war-beauty-and-war-aftermath/
Donetsk pre war beauty, what did the locals have to gain by going to war?
Seems they had much more to lose
Howmany years, and who will pay to rebuild?
The Russian side can claim victory, but sure doesn't look like it.
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U.S. sends 'Ironhorse' tanks to NATO's nervous Baltic front line(Reuters)
That's a REACTION, Yankee... Please understand that for all the talk of ''NATO expansionism'', the physical presence was being scaled back. That was GREAT as far as I was concerned.
More money for education and health....
Ukrainians have NEVER shown an interest in joining NATO - until Russian intervention within their borders. The FACTs are clear .... Pres Putin's 'fears' are as a result of HIS actions
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There'll be US (and Brit) tanks in ditches in Europe - East and West, rusting away but it takes a long time for a tank to rust away.
There was a purpose for that tho...
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Ukrainians have NEVER shown an interest in joining NATO - until Russian intervention within their borders. The FACTs are clear .... Pres Putin's 'fears' are as a result of HIS actions
Untrue.
Treat yourself to this book, you may learn something. I certainly did. It is the best one I have read up to now: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frontline-Ukraine-Borderlands-Richard-Sakwa-ebook/dp/B00SC8H0BE
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Untrue.
sighs..
do some more research, Manny... many polls conducted over the years in Ukraine.
It's a place you - clearly - know VERY little about.
I will check out the book, though
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Untrue.
sighs..
do some more research, Manny... many polls conducted over the years in Ukraine.
It's a place you - clearly - know VERY little about.
I will check out the book, though
Look up Poroshenko before anyone here had heard of him. He was howling to join NATO years ago as were some others of his ilk.
Seriously, read that book, it is the most meticulously researched piece of work I have yet seen. It was recommended to me by a [non RT] journo I know.
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Untrue.
sighs..
do some more research, Manny... many polls conducted over the years in Ukraine.
It's a place you - clearly - know VERY little about.
I will check out the book, though
Look up Poroshenko before anyone here had heard of him. He was howling to join NATO years ago as were some others of his ilk.
Seriously, read that book, it is the most meticulously researched piece of work I have yet seen. It was recommended to me by a [non RT] journo I know.
By 'before anyone here had heard of him' means when? Prior to 2012? Prior to 2000? What pages in the book mention Poroshenko 'howling' to join NATO? What other media mentions Poroshenko wanting Ukraine to join NATO years before he became President?
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http://www.opednews.com/populum/pagem.php?f=Ukraine-President-Once-Age-by-Michael-Collins-Agents_Petro-Poroshenko_Russia_State-Department-140609-372.html
Poroshenko once agent for the state department? :popcorn:
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http://www.opednews.com/populum/pagem.php?f=Ukraine-President-Once-Age-by-Michael-Collins-Agents_Petro-Poroshenko_Russia_State-Department-140609-372.html
Poroshenko once agent for the state department? :popcorn:
I think with all the aid money the US has funnelled into Ukraine you could say the same thing about most Ukrainian politicians. Did you know Putin was a CIA asset? It's the truth.
http://anarchadia.com/2013/08/08/the-cia-asset-dance/
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Manny, re Ukraine and NATO..
I was watching Pervy Kanal - about Euro-vision :chuckle: - sharing my screen, with S.C earlier and responded to you during a break .
When I referred to Ukrainian attitude to NATO membership - I meant the population - as a whole - not Politicians.
From WIKI- ''According to polls conducted between 2005 and 2013, Ukrainian public support of NATO membership remained low. [ SIX poll examples ]
A 2009 Gallup poll asked Ukrainians whether they saw NATO as a threat or protection for Ukraine; 40% saw NATO as a threat, 17% saw NATO as protection, and 33% saw NATO as neither.
However, since the start of the 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine, public support for Ukrainian membership in NATO has risen greatly. In June 2014, nearly 50% of those asked voice support; in an October 2014 poll this number had risen to over 50%.''
My assertion is that the Kremlin has ensured support for NATO membership , where there was only apathy /negative previously.
This is another example of the polarisation in Ukraine :(
Naturally, WANTING to join and meeting the criteria to join ...... political, legislative and economic stability ... make this a VERY long-term - if ever, outcome ....
It doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' to work out who seeks to keep Ukraine 'unstable'
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From WIKI- ''According to polls conducted between 2005 and 2013, Ukrainian public support of NATO membership remained low. [ SIX poll examples ]
What the population wants and what happens are sometimes completely in disagreement, even when a vote was called for.
I clearly remember a huge landslide failure concerning the "grondwet" for Europe in Netherlands. They went ahead and implemented it anyway because the referendum wasn't binding but only advisory.
Right, so much for democracy in Netherlands. :-\
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Hi Markje,
something like a UK vote on EU membership ... it this case all the main parties know better than the UKIP leader.... :chuckle:
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http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/putin-refused-poroshenkos-offer-to-take-donbass--forbes/518658.html
Would be interesting to know if this was a misunderstanding or Poroshenko actually offered up the Donbass :coffeeread:
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http://rt.com/politics/247869-russia-ukraine-nato-instructors/
Russia doesn't like the fact that they could face Ukrainian military that is trained and ready to fight.
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I am sure it does not give them the warm and fuzzies. We actually already have 300 men on the ground in Ukraine with another 300 about to be deployed, so double the number in the article. The 173 just trained the Romanians how to use Western anti tank weapons so I imagine it may be along similar lines in Ukraine.
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Amazing how a shipment of Stingers and TOWs - both shoulder fired - can wreak havoc on a modern armored land and air military.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/10/russian-fighter-ukraine-motorola
Motorola, example of Russia's finest (:)
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/10/russian-fighter-ukraine-motorola
Motorola, example of Russia's finest (:)
Even if this can be proven and it can be proven that the Sparta Battalion is not only actively supported but controlled by the Russian government since Russia has a veto on the UN Security Council Russia wouldn't end up like North Korea, being investigated for crimes against humanity.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/10/russian-fighter-ukraine-motorola
Motorola, example of Russia's finest (:)
Even if this can be proven and it can be proven that the Sparta Battalion is not only actively supported but controlled by the Russian government since Russia has a veto on the UN Security Council Russia wouldn't end up like North Korea, being investigated for crimes against humanity.
Think part of the ceasefire mentioned there would be no prosecution of war crimes?
But much can change when the next round of fighting resumes.
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http://www.Kievpost.com/content/ukraine/more-russian-troops-and-weapons-enter-east-ukraine-war-zone-386004.html
Reports keep coming of more Russian troops and weapons entering Ukraine.
Over the past few weeks, seems more direct accusations of Russian involvement are being made.
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Perhaps a response to this: http://rt.com/news/243937-hmmwv-humvee-ukraine-army/
It would be expected for each to arm their own side now.
However, still no photos of this stuff 'pouring in' though eh?
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Perhaps a response to this: http://rt.com/news/243937-hmmwv-humvee-ukraine-army/
It would be expected for each to arm their own side now.
However, still no photos of this stuff 'pouring in' though eh?
Seen photos, but there's no way to verify where they were taken.
For the bride hunters Ukraine is not looking to be promising.
If all out fighting starts again, it might cover a much larger area than previously.
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It's a big place and as Chris and many others would point out there's many western cities that don't see many western men.
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It's a big place and as Chris and many others would point out there's many western cities that don't see many western men.
True, and the west is were I want to go, but who knows when and where Russia would stop should Putin decide to make a real statement
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True, and the west is were I want to go, but who knows when and where Russia would stop should Putin decide to make a real statement
I would positively encourage you to go and see for yourself..... other than Donbass - you'd be something of a rarity :chuckle:
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http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2015/04/14/pm-announces-new-canadian-military-contribution-ukraine
PM ANNOUNCES NEW CANADIAN MILITARY CONTRIBUTION IN UKRAINE
20150414_SUB_E1_02.JPG
PM announces new Canadian military contribution in Ukraine
Prime Minister Stephen Harper announces that the Government of Canada will provide significant additional military resources to help train and build the capacity of Ukrainian forces personnel following a briefing on the current security situation in Ukraine with Jason Kenney, Minister of National Defence and Minister for Multiculturalism, and General Thomas Lawson, Chief of the Defence Staff.
Ottawa, Ontario
14 April 2015
Introduction
Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced that the Government of Canada will provide significant additional military resources to help train and build the capacity of Ukrainian forces personnel. The announcement was made following a briefing on the current security situation in Ukraine with Jason Kenney, Minister of National Defence and Minister for Multiculturalism, and General Tom Lawson, Chief of the Defence Staff.
Canada will be deploying approximately 200 Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel to Ukraine until March 31, 2017, to develop and deliver military training and capacity-building programs for Ukrainian forces personnel. CAF members will be deployed on both a sustained and periodic basis depending on the type of training being conducted. Their activities will include explosive ordnance disposal and improvised explosive device disposal training, military police training, medical training, flight safety training, and logistics system modernization training. Canada will also be providing individual and unit tactics training to Ukrainian National Guard personnel along with the United States.
Canada’s latest military contribution, which addresses a number of requests from the Government of Ukraine, is being provided to help the country in its efforts to maintain sovereignty, security and stability in the face of Russian aggression. The support being announced today was informed by consultations with key allies.
Canada’s position on Ukraine has been clear since the outset: we recognize the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine and will never recognize the illegal Russian occupation of Crimea or any part of that country.
Quick Facts
The training, intended to begin this summer, is in addition to training opportunities offered by the CAF through the Military Training and Cooperation Program. The training will take place primarily at the NATO Partnership for Peace Training and Education Centre in Yavoriv, located in western Ukraine close to the Polish border. Training will also take place at the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence Demining Centre in Kamyanets-Podilsky in western Ukraine.
In January 2015, Canada formalized the provision of military assistance to Ukraine by joining the United States/Ukraine Joint Commission and agreeing to co-chair, with Ukraine, the Joint Commission's Military Police Subcommittee.
In December 2014, Canada signed a Declaration of Intent with Ukraine for joint military training and capacity building in response to Russia's aggression in that country.
In November 2014, through the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Canada committed to a further contribution of non-lethal military supplies. From that commitment, Canada has delivered 30,000 coats, 30,000 pairs of pants, and 70,000 pairs of Gore-Tex boots. Once manufacturing is finalized, Canada will also be sending 22 Harris high-frequency radios, 238 pairs of PVS-7 night vision goggles, 1,134 tactical medical kits, a mobile field hospital structure and a yet to-be-determined amount of explosive ordnance disposal equipment.
In August 2014, Canada provided non-lethal military supplies to Ukraine, including a range of targeted protection, medical and logistical equipment such as 7,000 helmets, 30,000 sets of ballistic eyewear, 2,300 protective vests, 300 first aid kits, 100 tents and 735 sleeping bags.
Canada has also been strengthening security in Central and Eastern Europe through contributions to NATO including: a contribution of $1 million to the NATO Trust Funds for Ukraine with a focus on building up its command, control, communications and computer capabilities; the deployment of Canadian military personnel and Canadian Armed Forces assets as part of Operation REASSURANCE including the deployment of Her Majesty’s Canadian ships Regina, Toronto and Fredericton in support of the same operation; contributions to the three NATO-accredited Centres of Excellence in the Baltic region on Cyber Defence, Energy Security and Strategic Communications to help strengthen the regional framework to address the crisis situation; and Canada’s participation in several military exercises with allies in Europe.
Quotes
“Canada continues to stand with the people of Ukraine in the face of the Putin regime’s ongoing aggression. The Canadian military contribution being announced today will help Ukrainian forces personnel to better defend their country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.” – Prime Minister Stephen Harper
“Ukrainian forces personnel will benefit from the highest calibre of training from the brave men and women of our own Canadian Armed Forces. Canada will continue working with its allies to ensure a sovereign, unified and secure Ukraine.” – Prime Minister Stephen Harper
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I have not seen any body talking about this. The Ukraine is sanctioning Donbas by only letting people cross cross but no material goods. So far Russia has not been willing to send enough supplies to be meaningful.
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http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/war-heats-up-near-mariupol-386406.html
Most of the articles, quote the pro Russian forces saying the Ukrainian side is firing first,
But none of the monitors seem to come to the same conclusion.
Much like the view from the Kremlin's side, almost nothing can be verified.
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I have not seen any body talk ing about this. The Ukraine is sanctioning Donbas by only letting people cross cross but no material goods. So far Russia has not been willing to send enough supplies to be meaningful.
This is a huge mistake being made by the Ukrainian government.
Had they placed their efforts into humanitarian aid showing they are as one nation, would have helped, when comes time to reunite Ukraine.
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when comes time to reunite Ukraine.
Is that in the McCain and Kerry alternate reality?
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quote author=Manny link=topic=20984.msg405052#msg405052 date=1429308905]
when comes time to reunite Ukraine.
Is that in the McCain and Kerry alternate reality?
[/quote]
Part of the Minsk 2 treaty
.Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts within the framework
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Not likely is it? :pointlaugh:
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Not likely is it? :pointlaugh:
So far both sides have not honored to treaty so will have to see how the war plays out.
Keep in mind Putin has said he doesn't have interest in Ukraine, so someone will have to take on the welfare of eastern Ukraine.
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He doesn't want to pay for it. That doesn't mean he will let the Yanks fill it full of missiles.
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He doesn't want to pay for it. That doesn't mean he will let the Yanks fill it full of missiles.
Don't know if there is any truth to this article, but you would be correct Putin will pay if it would become part of Russia.
But for now it's Ukraine, but maybe it will be our 51st state. Then the U.S.and Russia can be neighbors. :chuckle:
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/04/06/putin-says-poroshenko-offered-eastern-ukraine-territories-to-russia
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Gee Manny you do not get it. The only missiles that have moves east are missiles to shoot down incoming missiles. Not only that, they do not even work well. It is just away for some defense contractor to sell us useless junk. Russia has advance radar jamming capability I do not think they will even work at all. So what is the big deal? This is just something for Putin and you to complain about. Some spoiled rich teenager in America will likely get a new sport car and Europe will get a bunch of useless missiles that can put Christmas decorations on. Well, maybe in ten of fifteen years they can replace with something that works.
He doesn't want to pay for it. That doesn't mean he will let the Yanks fill it full of missiles.
This would be very easy for us to do. Just finance the Ukraine to build there own missile systems and see if Russia Defensive missiles are any better than ours during the next attack.
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This would be very easy for us to do. Just finance the Ukraine to build there own missile systems
Well, apart from your country being insolvent, any money you sent would simply be stolen. Even planes go missing in Ukraine (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-03/ukraine-loses-five-indian-airplanes-shake-secret-service-army-underway), so I wouldn't hold out much hope of doing much there.
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Operation Fearless Guardian:
The US troops will train the National Guard of Ukraine, a reservist force that was reformed in 2014 to bring volunteers and militia under government control.
"We will be conducting classes on war-fighting functions, as well as training to sustain and increase the professionalism and proficiency of military staffs," Major Jose Mendez, operations officer for the brigade, was quoted as saying on the US army website.
Ukraine had asked the United States to send the training mission, dubbed Operation Fearless Guardian, according to an article published by the US army on April 11 said.
"This training will help them defend their borders and their sovereignty," it quoted brigade planning officer Captain Ashish Patel as saying.
A ground convoy drove all the way from the brigade's base in northern Italy to the Ukrainian military zone in Yavoriv near the Polish border, with vehicles and equipment.
The US and Ukrainian armies stressed the equipment was for use by the US brigade in the training and is not to be issued to Ukrainian forces.
Fifty paratroopers travelled with that 25-vehicle convoy, which arrived on April 10, while further troops arrived on April 14 and 15, the US army website said.
Ukraine's defence ministry said in a statement that the training would begin with a ceremony on April 20.
Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov had earlier said the US brigade would train about 900 Ukrainian National Guard troops.
The 173rd Airborne Brigade has already trained with Ukrainian forces elsewhere in Europe and took part in the multinational Rapid Trident field training exercises in Ukraine in September.
"The Americans have enormous combat experience and will teach skills to our military that can be used in combat," Ukrainian army spokesman Andriy Lysenko told a news conference Friday.
The training will include "how to give first aid, react to shelling and find out the positions of militants", he said.
Britain has also deployed several dozen trainers to Ukraine to train government forces there, while Canada announced Tuesday that it will also send 200 trainers in the summer.
US President Barack Obama is under pressure from lawmakers and military officials to send weapons to help the Ukrainian forces defend themselves, but has so far held back.
Some of his European allies including Germany have warned that sending arms would escalate the bloodshed.
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Not likely is it? :pointlaugh:
Quote Alexandr zakharchenko
But Mr Zakharchenko insisted it must be legally recognised as an independent territory.He said: "Ukraine has stopped paying welfare, pensions and other payments that are obligatory for a state to pay its citizens."They don't do it, so they've de facto recognised us."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32363766
Kiev needs to understand being Ukraine is an democratic nation, they must represent all the people.
Sadly, poroshenko sent in the military guns blazing. Had he tried diplomacy, and worked for a peaceful settlement, war could have been avoided.
Now there is an continuation of stupidity in not recognizing the citizens of eastern Ukraine.
These mistakes will make it unlikely Ukraine can be whole, but an olive branch offered by kiev might help.
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Kiev needs to understand being Ukraine is an democratic nation, they must represent all the people.
Sadly, poroshenko sent in the military guns blazing. Had he tried diplomacy, and worked for a peaceful settlement, war could have been avoided.
We tried that with UK PM Chamberlin in the 1930's. TC, Putin has his mind set on grabbing land, land that will benefit Russia in the decades to come, it has nothing to do with protecting Russian speakers. What country would lay down arms and allow a regime to take it over? You being an American I find this to be quite baffling, as you put liberty and freedom right up there with god & guns.
The only way to stop Putin and the few UA fighters is by force. They started it with force, and it will end with force.
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Kiev needs to understand being Ukraine is an democratic nation, they must represent all the people.
Sadly, poroshenko sent in the military guns blazing. Had he tried diplomacy, and worked for a peaceful settlement, war could have been avoided.
We tried that with UK PM Chamberlin in the 1930's. TC, Putin has his mind set on grabbing land, land that will benefit Russia in the decades to come, it has nothing to do with protecting Russian speakers. What country would lay down arms and allow a regime to take it over? You being an American I find this to be quite baffling, as you put liberty and freedom right up there with god & guns.
The only way to stop Putin and the few UA fighters is by force. They started it with force, and it will end with force.
Don,
It's not about war, it's about giving aid and what rightfully belongs to those in eastern Ukraine.
How do you think all the Ukrainians that depend on their pensions are to survive?
The people most effected, are not the ones who caused this
Poroshenko regardless of what the outcome will be, needs to honor the laws and not withhold necessities of life,, simply because they live in the war zone.
Some day the war will end, should eastern Ukraine be independent, or part of Russia will be determined.
But all those that were deprived of what was rightfully theirs, will not forget.
Those that lost everything from war will not forget.
When Ukraine's borders are defined, how peaceful the future will be depends on events taking place now.
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Putin has his mind set on grabbing land, land that will benefit Russia in the decades to come,
Because the biggest country in the world doesnt have enough? (:)
it has nothing to do with protecting Russian speakers. What country would lay down arms and allow a regime to take it over?
Western Ukraine allowed the US and Ukraine to defacto take it over. Without a murmur.
The only way to stop Putin and the few UA fighters is by force. They started it with force, and it will end with force.
The only way to "stop" Putin is to cease provoking him.
This level of knee-jerk unthinking and stupidity you spout seems quite common across the pond. There seems to be a zero level of comprehension of the actual issues prevalent in the region.
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The only way to stop Putin and the few UA fighters is by force. They started it with force, and it will end with force.
Human sacrifice won't work any better for the Ukrainians than it did for the Mayas and the Incas, Don.
Perhaps they should spend more time gazing into the sky and contemplating the existence of a Higher Power.
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The non payment of pensions by the Ukraine government is important. Under Ukrainian law the government should pay recipients now matter where they live. There are a couple of exceptions based upon reciprocity, but that is not at issue here.
By not making these payments not only are the Ukrainian government stealing from their citizens but, as some are arguing, the supposed recipients are now being treated as non-Ukrainians. The corollary to this is that in such a case Novorossia is already rendered independent of Ukraine.
One point that should be made is that when we talk of Ukraine we need to be aware of what we are talking about. For example, at the moment in the English language media there is often a deliberate confusion of nation, government and state. Thus the pensioners in Novorossia are as Ukrainian as I am English. The Ukrainian government is saying that while they may be Ukrainians in terms of their nationality they are no longer part of the current state of Ukraine and the government has no responsibility toward them.
Zakharchenko, is the leader of a group of Ukrainians who argue that the current government is not a legal representative of the state of Ukraine because of the coup in February 2014. When he, and others, talk of independence from Ukraine they refer, in general, to independence from the current government and state.
Furthermore, under the terms of the Minsk 2 Accord the relationship between Novorossia and the state of Ukraine will be finalised by a new constitution. At that point there will be a new state of Ukraine, the Minsk 2 mandated elections will form a new government representing the new state and Novorossia will be a full part of that new state and government.
If Kiev does not carry out the obligations undertaken by Poroshenko then the chances are that Novorossia will seek independence from the country /nation of Ukraine. That is why control of the borders of Ukraine where they lie on Novorossian territory will not be passed over to the Ukrainian state and government until such time as the new constitution has been put in place because if the constitution does not come into force then the borders will become those of the state/nation of Novorossia and Russia.
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Kiev needs to understand being Ukraine is an democratic nation, they must represent all the people.
Sadly, poroshenko sent in the military guns blazing. Had he tried diplomacy, and worked for a peaceful settlement, war could have been avoided.
Now there is an continuation of stupidity in not recognizing the citizens of eastern Ukraine.
These mistakes will make it unlikely Ukraine can be whole, but an olive branch offered by kiev might help.
Hmm, having just seen a crook - who ran Ukraine - with his sons as he pleased - even Oligarchs feared their 'rule' - whisked from justice and the Crimean peninsula having been overrun by the leasing clients, Kiev reacted in a far more moderate response than Moscow did in Grozny ..
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The non payment of pensions by the Ukraine government is important. Under Ukrainian law the government should pay recipients now matter where they live. There are a couple of exceptions based upon reciprocity, but that is not at issue here.
Er, and when someone is taking over Police stations, robbing banks, bumping off politicians for removing 'rebel flags', seizing assets of local businessmen - these actions being organised by non-citizens - you 'expect' a democratic response to an emergency situation .
As ever, andrewfi is pretty 'selective' about his understanding about UA and how the Kremlin reacted when it regions wished to secede from a federation they never agreed to 'join' ..
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The non payment of pensions by the Ukraine government is important. Under Ukrainian law the government should pay recipients now matter where they live. There are a couple of exceptions based upon reciprocity, but that is not at issue here.
Er, and when someone is taking over Police stations, robbing banks, bumping off politicians for removing 'rebel flags', seizing assets of local businessmen - these actions being organised by non-citizens - you 'expect' a democratic response to an emergency situation .
As ever, andrewfi is pretty 'selective' about his understanding about UA and how the Kremlin reacted when it regions wished to secede from a federation they never agreed to 'join' ..
None of that stuff is the fault of little old dears huddled in cellars with no pension. They didn't manage to 'cleanse' them all, so some are still there deserving their pensions.
However, the non payment of pensions and other things actually mean the US the current regime in Kiev have thrown in the towel there. Someone will have to make infrastructure - what is left of it - work there. If they withhold electricity, gas and pensions, then the door is open for others to help. As we see with Russian aid convoys.
If Kiev does not carry out the obligations undertaken by Poroshenko then the chances are that Novorossia will seek independence from the country /nation of Ukraine. That is why control of the borders of Ukraine where they lie on Novorossian territory will not be passed over to the Ukrainian state and government until such time as the new constitution has been put in place because if the constitution does not come into force then the borders will become those of the state/nation of Novorossia and Russia.
Its hard to envisage a government that all with a vested interest will agree with. I think it doubtful that any government administered from what is currently Ukraine will control borders in Novorossiya again.
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Kiev needs to understand being Ukraine is an democratic nation, they must represent all the people.
Sadly, poroshenko sent in the military guns blazing. Had he tried diplomacy, and worked for a peaceful settlement, war could have been avoided.
Now there is an continuation of stupidity in not recognizing the citizens of eastern Ukraine.
These mistakes will make it unlikely Ukraine can be whole, but an olive branch offered by kiev might help.
Hmm, having just seen a crook - who ran Ukraine - with his sons as he pleased - even Oligarchs feared their 'rule' - whisked from justice and the Crimean peninsula having been overrun by the leasing clients, Kiev reacted in a far more moderate response than Moscow did in Grozny ..
If one cannot learn from the past, the future will be no different.
As the new regime in Ukraine continues down the same path, then nothing will be gained.
You can see how well things are going in Ukraine at the moment.
Didn't work out so well did it?
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I do not think the Ukraine wants it back very much. Too many terrorist and too much poverty. Sadly neither does Russia want Lugansk and Donetsk. The rebels do not ever want to be part of the Ukraine and never had since the beginning. They want to be an independent country but Russia does not want them to be an independent country neither. Russia wants to say all the poverty is in the Ukraine and has nothing to do with them. The Ukraine just want this area to quit expanding. The idea is if it cost Russia more money the bigger it gets maybe then maybe Russia will not want to expand it any more.
Just think if Russia were to take a land bridge all the way to Moldavia and now we had 22 million people living like the LNR and DNR. This is a much biogger problem for Russia than any thing the west would do.
Guys the Ukraine does not have any money to rebuild the place nor will this place contribute any taxes to the Ukraine only cost under the present frame work. If the Ukraine got Lugansk and Donetsk back nothing would happen. Other than the trucks would get thru nothing else would change.
Pensions in the Ukraine used to be about sixty dollars a month. The currency was devalued to where that would been about 20 dollars per month. In order to get the IMF loans pensions were cut more I believe in about half after that. Hey in any real terms their are no pensions in the Ukraine, the country just can not afford them any longer.
My take on this is the Ukraine wants it to be a separate country. They have set up boarders and you have to have a passport to inter the Ukraine for there now. This way they are not responsible for the expensives in this area.
About Ukrainian law. These guys control the president and congress of the Ukraine. They can change the law to anything they want. And that is the new law. Putin does this all the time so why can not the Ukrainians.
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Kiev needs to understand being Ukraine is an democratic nation, they must represent all the people.
Sadly, poroshenko sent in the military guns blazing. Had he tried diplomacy, and worked for a peaceful settlement, war could have been avoided.
We tried that with UK PM Chamberlin in the 1930's. TC, Putin has his mind set on grabbing land, land that will benefit Russia in the decades to come, it has nothing to do with protecting Russian speakers. What country would lay down arms and allow a regime to take it over? You being an American I find this to be quite baffling, as you put liberty and freedom right up there with god & guns.
The only way to stop Putin and the few UA fighters is by force. They started it with force, and it will end with force.
Don,
It's not about war, it's about giving aid and what rightfully belongs to those in eastern Ukraine.
How do you think all the Ukrainians that depend on their pensions are to survive?
The people most effected, are not the ones who caused this
Poroshenko regardless of what the outcome will be, needs to honor the laws and not withhold necessities of life,, simply because they live in the war zone.
And how does the UA govt give out these cheques? Hand the cash to the rebels and trust them to hand it over to the seniors? Besides all those convoys of aid Manny boasts about should keep the old folks in potatoes and onions while UA forces try to retake their land
Putin has his mind set on grabbing land, land that will benefit Russia in the decades to come,
Because the biggest country in the world doesnt have enough? (:)
I know it was a soft lob for you, but dictators always want more. Just like your was country out on the oceans sticking poles in the ground on sovereign soils claiming it for England. I suppose the Soviet and Japanese Neutrality Pact over the islands to the east is in Russia's favour too? Not that the worlds largest country needs more land.... right? (:)
it has nothing to do with protecting Russian speakers. What country would lay down arms and allow a regime to take it over?
Western Ukraine allowed the US and Ukraine to defacto take it over. Without a murmur.
yes of course, the evil USA, ooooooow scary stuff kids!
The only way to stop Putin and the few UA fighters is by force. They started it with force, and it will end with force.
The only way to "stop" Putin is to cease provoking him.
This level of knee-jerk unthinking and stupidity you spout seems quite common across the pond. There seems to be a zero level of comprehension of the actual issues prevalent in the region.
Poor ole Putie, getting bullied by the evil USA with a long stick. Wake up Manny if he stayed out of Crimea, didn't harbour criminals fleeing their countries, and learned to conduct himself properly, the UA forces would of calmed the situation long ago in UA, including Crimea.
Manny I really have no idea why I bother with any of this, you chirp like an excited bird supporting Putin and all things Russia. perhaps you are under family pressure to take this line, maybe even your hero's at the Kremlin have decided they needed a mouth piece who owns a FSU forum, and what better way to get their message out than by having you and Andy stock the fire of their propaganda. Or maybe you even getting a few roub's for spitting this stuff out daily, I don't know. I do know you're in the minority.
Anyway its a sunny day here, I'm going to get some fresh air. :8)
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I'm going to get some fresh air.
Yes, you need some.
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'quoting' Bunghollio
''I'm going to get some fresh air.''
Yes, you need some.
Gosh, Manny ... that was 'witty' ..
At least Don's air will be fresh :chuckle:
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http://novorossia.today/lpr-is-going-to-issue-passports-in-the-russian-language/
LPR is going to issue passports in the Russian language.
Wonder how difficult it will be to arrange the necessary paper work and travel visas for a woman from the conflict areas?
Will kiev still issue international passport?
I have read many have gotten Russian passports, this too would open a new can of worms.
Then one would have to go through Moscow.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32361718
Ukraine conflict: Email claim for Kiev killings
Dose not matter Russia or Ukraine, if you're anti-government your days are limited
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http://novorossia.today/lpr-is-going-to-issue-passports-in-the-russian-language/
LPR is going to issue passports in the Russian language.
Wonder how difficult it will be to arrange the necessary paper work and travel visas for a woman from the conflict areas?
Will kiev still issue international passport?
I have read many have gotten Russian passports, this too would open a new can of worms.
Then one would have to go through Moscow.
Reading the page you linked to it would seem that the 'passport' is not what you would think of as a passport. The document will be an internal ID card. In Russia and Ukraine the internal passport is the primary ID form for all citizens.
Here's a Wikipedia page about Russian internal passports, similar applies to Ukraine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_passport_of_Russia
Thus international issues will not be a part of the validity of this document. The need for the internal passport arises because the Kievan regime has ended its responsibilities for its citizens in Novorossia and so some form of substitute for the normal state functions is required. The longer that the Kievan regime withholds the mechanisms and services of the state from Novorossia the more complete will become the de facto independence of the region.
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20 Apr 2014 00:00 UTC - 20 Apr 2015 14:40 UTC
USD/UAH close:22.84902 low:11.22730 high:33.72500
Official buying power of the USD looking reasonably strong today - not quite as high as 33.7 but not as low as 8.x a few short years ago...
Curious if anyone knows the "unofficial" coffee shop and or street rate?
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20 Apr 2014 00:00 UTC - 20 Apr 2015 14:40 UTC
USD/UAH close:22.84902 low:11.22730 high:33.72500
Official buying power of the USD looking reasonably strong today - not quite as high as 33.7 but not as low as 8.x a few short years ago...
Curious if anyone knows the "unofficial" coffee shop and or street rate?
The black market rate is gone now as the exchange rate has dropped to now 2,225 and the buy rate is only 2325, the exchange rate has been droping by 50 grivnas a day for the last week, where I exchange money i only get now 50 grivnas extra when for the last six months i was getting from 200 to 300 grivna more for every 100 I exchanged
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Analysis-Israel-gets-a-resounding-slap-in-the-face-from-Putin-398614
With Israel feeling that Putin giving them the short end of the stick. Maybe Ukraine will have a new supplier for military hardware :coffeeread:
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http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Analysis-Israel-gets-a-resounding-slap-in-the-face-from-Putin-398614
With Israel feeling that Putin giving them the short end of the stick. Maybe Ukraine will have a new supplier for military hardware :coffeeread:
Most of Russian "Mafiya" have backup Israeli Passports and dachas in Tel Aviv where they can exchange their Rubs for Euros/GBP/USD/Riyals etc etc etc rather than repatriate to Moscow as was the Chairman of Russia Inc's patriotic request so what do they expect? Seriously???
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http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0NB1UV20150420?irpc=932
Russia's Lavrov says fighting in east Ukraine abating.
According to this report things could stay fairly quiet till after may 9th.
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It is already de facto independent and will like not be apart of the Ukraine any time soon. Russia keeps it part of the Ukraine in title only because Putin does not want to be responsible for this region. Under new Ukrainian laws these people are no longer citizens of the Ukraine but they can regain their citizenship if they move back to Ukraine controlled area and have their pensions restated with back pay. It just the pensions are so small there is not much of a reason to do this. It is just the Ukraine is so poor now and there are no jobs it make it very hard for the people to move. They can go to Russa but Ukrainians are not usually treated all that well in Russia. They usually get very low paying jobs if they can get any job. They do not feel well protected under Russian law and often feel exploited. Still, as Manny has pointed out many times, 800,000 have move to Russia or about 20 per cent of the population LNR and DNR.
I believe their is more free food and free housing in the LNR and DNR than the rest of the Ukraine or Russia.
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The need for the internal passport arises because the Kievan regime has ended its responsibilities for its citizens in Novorossia and so some form of substitute for the normal state functions is required. The longer that the Kievan regime withholds the mechanisms and services of the state from Novorossia the more complete will become the de facto independence of the region.
That's an 'interesting' interpretation of 'facts' ...
The moment the 'rebels' took control of an area
1/ The TV masts stopped broadcasting UA channels
2/ Banks / business Assets of Oligarchs perceived to be 'friendly' with Kiev were 'seized'
3/ Reading the initial claims as to the 'status' of the 'LPR / DPR' renders your 'assertions' pretty risible.
Kindly do TRY to 'report' with a little more cred and a little less bias
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moby, when you read, try to read the words written not the ones that you would like to see in front of you.
Given the claims of the Kievan regime and previously established Ukrainian legal precedent the Kiev government is obligated to do things that it is not doing. The government is clearly abrogating its responsibilities.
Secondly, under the terms of the Minsk 2 Accord there are actions that the Kiev government is obligated to carry out, largely those regarding their responsibilities to their citizens and largely similar to those in the paragraph above. Again those obligations are not being met.
This is not as you would like to imagine about 'bias' but is a simple objective matter of fact.
If a government does not carry out its obligations in respect of the citizens of the state then those who are thus abandoned will tend to find alternative means.
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http://registan.net/2015/02/15/the-woeful-strategic-and-military-aftermath-of-the-minsk-2-agreement-between-ukraine-and-russia/
Finally, Kiev will have to bear the cost of the restoration of “social and economic connections” in the Donbass region, and notably resuming social payments and pensions, restarting the banking system, and providing humanitarian aid. It remains to be seen how a virtually bankrupt country already on life support through international donors will be able to autonomously pay for the Donbass…
Please note the article points out the Kiev has been force to sign a agreement that is can not possibly keep. The Ukraine has no money to deal with the problem in the LNR and DNR. They can not possibly comply with the Minst 2 agreement. If they had any choice they would never signed it. They were under heavy attacked from Russian back forces at this time. It is like having a pointed gun at your head and say sign or else. This is the type of agreement you get when you do this.
The LNR and DNR consider themselves a separate country and have since June. Kiev did not cut the ties until December. TheLNR and DNR do not want to be part of the Ukraine only Russia wants them to be part of the Ukraine. Russia has force both side to sign this agreement which neither side wants. The LNR and DNR do not want any part of being in the Ukraine ever and Kiev feel it has no means to deal with them as part of the Ukraine.
Russia has heavily back this area separate activities and now does not want to pay the cost. So they have force the Ukraine to sign this document making Russia not responsible for the war they made. This is the lack or responsibly on Russia part. They won the war now they need to pay the cost to rebuild Putin's newly separated nation.
In January 2016 Kiev is suppose to regain control of it board with Russia. No one believes this is going to happen so the assumption the LNR and DNR are republics as the name says and will in a few years be recognized as separate nation.
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Andrew look at this and tell me how this is going to be part of the Ukraine. Nobody in LNR, DNR or the Ukraine wants this the Minst 2 agreement. This is an agreement that only Russia liked so they would have an excuse to not be responsible for what happened. This is footage shot in Debaltseve and it show the attitude of the people in the area and the troops that are fighting this war.
LNR and DNR wants a lot more territory and want to keep on fighting. The Ukraine is telling Russia if they do this there will be a lot more people that are going to living in bombed out houses without water, electricity and food. The Ukraine can not and will not care for any of these people it will be a problem Russia will have to care for and send aid.
My understand that conditions in Debaltseve are not as pleasant as they were here. Now there is no more aid arriving, no troops, no electricity, no water just bomb out housing. Welcome to Putin's new country for ethnic Russians.
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http://rt.com/business/251357-ukraine-donbas-loss-yartsenyuk/
Ukraine lost $3bn over conflict in Donbass - Yatsenyuk
Maybe someone should tell Yatsenyuk Ukraine lost the whole of Donbass, not just taxes.
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It looks like the Russians are getting ready to explain it to him just incase he is having a memory loss. I wonder how long until Minst three and will it formally anounce the LNR and DNR are a separate countries? I wonder how large the LNR and DNR will be by then?
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/22/uk-ukraine-crisis-usa-idUKKBN0ND2JA20150422
The Ukraine has little in the way of options. They could spend a lot of money they do not have on the LNR and DNR and lose it or spend no money on it and lose it. Either way they will lose it if you can possibily say they have it now. It is only theirs in name, nothing more.
The girl I write that was in Lugansk has given up all hope that Lugansk will be part of the Ukraine again any time soon if ever. She used to worry about her house in Lugansk. She has been going through the emotion realization it will in all likelyhhood it will never be home again. It is emotonal harder than many of you might think. She has family and friends there and often talks to them. The quality of their life in the LNR is very low.
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DNR and LNR demand cash captives. It is often the money goes on personal debit cards.
http://uatoday.tv/politics/militants-demand-from-uah-2-000-to-10-000-to-release-each-ukrainian-captive-423149.html
"One Cossack held five of our guys in captivity. As they told, he asked for UAH 2,000 for the five of them. This is small money for a businessman. But sometimes the militants ask 10,000 for a ‘famous' soldier. And some of them want UAH 700, but the money has to be transferred to their bank card. Many of them are scammers,"
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News video
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32447371
For some areas of eastern Ukraine there is no ceasefire. Pro Russian troops began firing on Ukrainian military shortly after the observers left.
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/04/22/this-is-what-european-investors-get-for-investing-268-mln-in-ukraine/
Ukraine seems to be nothing more than a welfare state, with nothing to offer its European caretakers.
The future really doesn't look promising.
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The Associated PressApr 24, 2015, 5:05 AMKIEV, Ukraine —
Ukraine's prime minister says there will be no increase to welfare payments until the poverty-stricken country emerges from its security and economic crisis.Arseniy Yatsenyuk told lawmakers Friday that the immediate priority lay in restoring the health of the economy, which theInternational Monetary Fund sees shrinking by 5.5 percent this year.The government believes Ukraine will return to growth in 2016, although that projection is hostage to events in industrial eastern regions where fighting continues against Russian-backed separatists. Yatsenyuk says the conflict that has raged over the past year has cost Ukraine the loss of one-fifth of its economy.Efforts to pare back Ukraine's welfare system and sharp increases to utility prices mandated by international creditors are compounding pain in a country already blighted by deep poverty
Yatsenyuk, dose not seem to grasp the concept eastern Ukraine will most likely never again be contributing to the economy of Ukraine.
So it's doubtful 2016 will show any improvement in the economy.
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^ I wonder if the wack-job is still planning on building a fence on the entire length of the Ukraine/Russia border.
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^ I wonder if the wack-job is still planning on building a fence on the entire length of the Ukraine/Russia border.
I am sure the plan still exists. The implementation seems to lag behind the rhetoric however. A while back there was a press presentation of the new border installations. The images had to be very carefully composed as the much vaunted earthworks and fence extended for only a few meters.
Incidentally, canny observers noticed that the fence was set up to prevent egress from Ukraine rather than hindering entrance from Russia.
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http://novorossia.today/10-reasons-ukraine-is-dead/
The future of Ukraine sure doesn't look promising.
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The EU and US have not helped Ukraine.
It is ironic that without treaties, The US/EU gave billions to help Ebola countries. And even with a treaty with Ukraine, they have given almost nothing.
Wayne
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Ukraines new safe haven city:
Dateline: Bucharest, Romania
I had two rather dichotomous conversations over the weekend that ended up at a rather similar conclusion.
One of my calls was to a childhood friend from where I grew up in Ohio. After years of toiling through horrible Cleveland winters, corrupt government, and high taxes, he’s packing up and moving to Florida.
Studies show he’s not alone. Florida is the fastest growing state in The Land of the Free, with its smaller metropolitan areas dominating six of the top 20 spots in the whole country.
While plenty of young people have discovered that bad weather and poor job prospects can be alleviated by leaving the Rust Belt for the Sun Belt, we all know that retirees have, as well. I guess seeing shuttered steel factories and unionized assembly lines don’t appeal to them.
A Floridian community called The Villages is the fastest growing “metro area” in the United States, having doubled in size in just a few short years as people leave the competitively disadvantaged US northeast for income-tax free Florida.
Think about it: the wealthiest generation in US history is moving south to escape the harsh winters where they built their wealth. It only makes sense that jobs and wealth will follow suit and the mass exodus from high-tax states continues.
While I’d much rather see these people choosing Panama City, Panama over Panama City, Florida for cheap cost of living and better tax treatment, the US has a long-standing trend of wealth shifting to the south.
US persons know this. What is interesting is another conversation I had the exact same day, this one with a Ukrainian girl who is helping her company invest here in Romania.
It’s no secret that the conflict with Russia has many Ukrainians concerned about what will happen to the country. The western world is already bracing for a militarized Russia invading territories from Ukraine to Latvia, propaganda I don’t necessarily agree with.
While some eastern Ukrainians in areas like Donetsk are more comfortable with Russian culture and align themselves with Mother Russia, many younger Ukrainians prefer to align themselves with the west and Europe.
Ukraine is one of those countries that has what I call “entrepreneurs of necessity”. As my new friend and I discussed, the job market in Ukraine is rather weak. For everyone talking about hiring cheap office staff in the Philippines, hiring in Ukraine is even cheaper.
Many people earn $100-200 per month, and Ukraine is full of university graduates with skills in programming, sciences, and engineering.
As a result, many people have become freelancers and started their own business selling services to the western world.
But that’s not the point. The point is that the western-facing younger generation is scared about what will happen in the eastern part of the country. And they want out.
Quite a number of them are moving to Lvov, Ukraine’s westernmost major city just fifty miles from the Polish and European Union borders.
As getting visas to Europe or the Americas is difficult with a Ukrainian passport due to fears of corruption there, more and more successful entrepreneurs are moving to Lvov to live a more western life.
Likewise, more companies that hire well-paid employees in the tech field are moving operations to Lvov to take advantage of a young, fresh talent pool.
For these people, Lvov is their safe haven.
Just as US persons are escaping ridiculous income and property taxes in places like New Jersey, New York, and even my native Ohio, people in emerging countries are following my extremely simple five-word formula as well: “go where you’re treated best”.
In countries like China and even here in Romania, the most educated and talented young people move to the capital city in search of the best jobs and lifestyle opportunities.
In a few cases, this trend has been so prevalent as to almost be detrimental to real estate investors. Recent graduates in Beijing are so prevalent (hence the Chinese penchant for seemingly endless education) and wages so low that rental prices can’t really go any higher.
Here in Europe, however, people are seeking out their own safe havens. While most of the kids in my high school class still live near where we grew up, kids in emerging economies are far more often looking for their safe haven as a way to get ahead.
While the best new safe havens are located abroad, outside of the reach of your local government and their economic problems, there are millions of people all around the world seeking the most accessible safe haven for them.
Not every Romanian can get a job elsewhere in Europe, just as Finland can only hire so many reasonably-priced Estonians from across the Gulf.
One thing you can be sure of it that this migration effects investment potential. One of our Nomad Society Members told me about a fabulous success he had buying and selling property in Tallinn, Estonia.
In fact, from 2011 to 2014, property values there rose by nearly 60% as the countries’ entrance to the eurozone helped more people find their own safe haven for career and lifestyle.
Your safe haven may be finding a place to store your money overseas safe from the latest wealth tax. That’s what we talk about here.
When it comes to deploying your capital, it’s important to put yourself in other peoples’ shoes. What are the hopes, dreams, and goals of the people that are the basis of your investment?
I’m not suggesting you buy property in Ukraine. Even with well-furnished brand new construction selling for as little as $700-800 per square meter, the country does have corruption issues.
Capital cities are often a safe bet because, although they can be expensive, the governments located there aren’t planning on going out of business any time soon. This is far less true in Central America where the capital cities are dumps, but holds true in much of Europe and Asia.
Living outside of the Americas allows me to pay more attention to trends not involving Americans and Canadians. It’s my belief that far too many people are pumping Chile or Costa Rica merely because 6% of the world’s population likes it there.
There are certainly good reasons to live or invest in the Americas, but when you consider the wealth shift in countries like Ukraine and the reasons behind it, you’ll realize there is far more money to be made there than in the lateral moves of US persons moving to Texas or Florida.
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http://rt.com/business/251357-ukraine-donbas-loss-yartsenyuk/
Ukraine lost $3bn over conflict in Donbass - Yatsenyuk
Maybe someone should tell Yatsenyuk Ukraine lost the whole of Donbass, not just taxes.
Very true. But, most likely Ukraine is looking at short term issues - forced on them by EU/US/IMF.
Without that tax revenue, the EU/US/IMF are threatening bankruptcy more often than they are promising help.
IMHO.
Wayne
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Warning this is a very sick video, there is no honor or reason for these kinds of brutal acts of the military.
SHOCK VIDEO: UKRAINIAN NEO-NAZIS NAIL REBEL FIGHTER TO CROSS, BURN HIM ALIVE
US-backed militants carry out brutal execution
http://www.infowars.com/shock-video-ukrainian-neo-nazis-nail-rebel-fighter-to-cross-burn-him-alive/
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Warning this is a very sick video, there is no honor or reason for these kinds of brutal acts of the military.
SHOCK VIDEO: UKRAINIAN NEO-NAZIS NAIL REBEL FIGHTER TO CROSS, BURN HIM ALIVE
US-backed militants carry out brutal execution
http://www.infowars.com/shock-video-ukrainian-neo-nazis-nail-rebel-fighter-to-cross-burn-him-alive/
NO US Military would ever tolerate this - to imply such is total Bull Shite - more likely an ISIS inspired video to portray Westerners as brutal as they are. We just shoot, drone or Nuke you if you are enough of a threat. All within the laws of war of course.
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some good questions to ponder in this list
my personal favourites are questions no 2, 3 8, 11 and 14
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/25/20-questions-for-those-who-back-putins-aggression-in-ukraine/
Viktor Kadochnikov, a Russian blogger, poses 20 questions that he suggests those who support Vladimir Putin’s aggression in Ukraine should be asking themselves. If they do and if they are honest, they won’t be able to support the Kremlin leader’s policies any more.
Below, in summary form, are the 20 questions he says they should be confronted with.
1.“Why are Donetsk and Lugansk ‘Novorossiya,’ but when a passenger jet crashes in its territory, it is instantly transformed into Ukraine?”
2.“Mercenary activity is a crime in Russia. Why don’t ‘the militia men’–who come from Russia and are paid for combat–not fall under this provision of the law?”
3.“How can one explain the fact” that Moscow has brought criminal charges [exclusively] against Russian citizens who are fighting for Ukraine but not against Russians who are fighting in Ukraine against the Ukrainian government?
4.Do you consider the use by the [Russian] ‘militias’ of civilians as human shields something deserving of respect?
5.“The war is costing Ukraine several million dollars a day. It is logical to assume that it isn’t costing its opponent any less. Do you really think that Russia isn’t giving the so-called Novorossiya military and financial help?”
6.“Why is it that everywhere where the so-called militias ‘liberate,’ there is war? … Why are the so-called [Ukrainian] ‘punitive operations’ only where there are ‘militias’?”
7.“Why must Ukraine hand over to [Russian] band formations territories that legally belong to it? If the Ukrainian military doesn’t want to do this, does that make them punitive detachments?”
8.Given the number of times Vladimir Putin has changed his story on Crimea, “is it possible to believe him now when he asserts that there are no Russian forces in the Donbas? If so, then why?”
9.How would you react if some American said–as Igor “Strelkov” Girkin has–that without their invasion, nothing much would have occurred?
10.The Russian defense ministry has promised to provide five million rubles to the families of soldiers who “have died at the Ukrainian border. Are you not interested in why [the details of their deaths] are being hidden from you?”
11.Given that Moscow forcefully disperses opposition meetings and imprisons its participants on made-up charges, how do you think Vladimir Putin would react if some group seized administration buildings and proclaimed the creation of its own statehood on Russian territory? Would Putin take measures or perhaps sit down with the terrorists “to negotiate” as he demands that Kiev do?
12.“Why does every Ukrainian patriot, who wears Ukrainian symbols, sings the Ukrainian hymn, supports the unity of his country and speaks against separatism automatically become a Banderite and fascist? Under what article of the [Russian Federation] criminal code?”
13.Are all pieces of evidence of the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine–even those offered by Russian soldiers themselves–forgeries produced in the West?
14.“Comrade Putin frequently has declared that Russia is not a side in the conflict and that he personally respects and supports the territorial integrity of Ukraine. If that is really so, then why hasn’t Russia closed the border from its side so that volunteers (and not only they) from the Russian Federation do not have the opportunity to cross it in order to fight against the territorial integrity of Ukraine?”
15.The Russian government last August explained the appearance of Russian troops in Ukraine by saying that they had crossed the border by mistake. “Do you really believe this? What would be your reaction if NATO soldiers ‘accidentally became confused’ somewhere near Vladivostok?”
16.“Why has Russia not once condemned the ‘Novorossiya’ militants and not once called on them to lay down their arms first? At the same time, officials of the Russian Federation have frequently called on Ukrainian soldiers to lay down their arms and leave the Ukrainian Donbas to the bandits. Why all [Russian] federal media gives positive coverage to only one side?”
17.How do you explain the fact that the forces of the ‘DNR’ and ‘LNR,’ hard-pressed as they were last August, suddenly “opened a new front in the direction of Mariupol and seized Novoazovsk? Who did this in fact: the forces of ‘the militias,’ whom the Ukrainian army had successfully contained or Russian soldiers without uniform markings who supposedly weren’t there?”
18.Why does Belarus, a state aligned so “close to Russia, support the territorial integrity of Ukraine and not agree with Putin’s imperialist plans? Why does Lukashenka, Putin’s ally in the Customs Union believe that there is no fascism as a mass phenomenon in Ukraine and say that it is necessary to destroy the militants fighting against Ukraine?”
19.Do you believe Russian officials when they say that the 12 Pskov paratroopers did not die fighting in Ukraine but rather “by chance” died from heart attacks, suicides and accidents all at the same time?
20.“What are the ‘Novorossiya’ militants fighting for and what is the use of what they are doing?”
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https://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/poroshenko-says-full-blown-war-possible-as-situation-in-ukraines-east-further-deteriorates-387311.html
Looks like the ceasefire is about to end,as the pro Russian forces are getting restless.
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Quote
We Went on the Front Lines of Ukraine’s War
Neither side in this battle-damaged town is giving up.
Seems doubtful peace will be found in eastern Ukraine.
Both sides feel they have too much to lose by putting down their weapons.
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/we-went-on-the-front-lines-of-ukraine-s-war-1539066e60e7
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^ I wonder if the wack-job is still planning on building a fence on the entire length of the Ukraine/Russia border.
I am sure the plan still exists. The implementation seems to lag behind the rhetoric however. A while back there was a press presentation of the new border installations. The images had to be very carefully composed as the much vaunted earthworks and fence extended for only a few meters.
Incidentally, canny observers noticed that the fence was set up to prevent egress from Ukraine rather than hindering entrance from Russia.
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com//news/world/ukraine-erects-rickety-stretch-of-fences-along-eastern-border-in-first-world-war-style-defence-against-russia
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/05/08/ukraine-president-says-almost-7000-civilians-killed-by-war-with-separatists-in/
According to this article, 7000 civilians were killed in Ukraine. Add 1600 + Ukraine military puts the total well over the 6000+ often stated.
Now there is no mention to the number of pro Russian forces killed. So the total number of casualties could be double the numbers so often stated.
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^ I wonder if the wack-job is still planning on building a fence on the entire length of the Ukraine/Russia border.
You mean like the one between Russian and the disputed parts of Georgia, TomT ...?
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/closed%20zone_zpsvyhbd3ai.jpeg)
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moby, when you read, try to read the words written not the ones that you would like to see in front of you.
Given the claims of the Kievan regime and previously established Ukrainian legal precedent the Kiev government is obligated to do things that it is not doing. The government is clearly abrogating its responsibilities.
Secondly, under the terms of the Minsk 2 Accord there are actions that the Kiev government is obligated to carry out, largely those regarding their responsibilities to their citizens and largely similar to those in the paragraph above. Again those obligations are not being met.
This is not as you would like to imagine about 'bias' but is a simple objective matter of fact.
If a government does not carry out its obligations in respect of the citizens of the state then those who are thus abandoned will tend to find alternative means.
andrewfi,
The irony of your lecturing me re 'comprehension issues' when you still avoid dealing with my comprehensive riposte re your summarising of Minsk II - not even asking WHERE each time I've pointed this out won't be lost on wiser readers ......
Simple version: Minsk II is full of holes that all parties are exploiting - it was hastily cobbled together to stem the serious blood-letting.
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/25/20-questions-for-those-who-back-putins-aggression-in-ukraine/
You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/25/20-questions-for-those-who-back-putins-aggression-in-ukraine/
You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
Not doing yourself any favors here Leslied. The post was made a couple of weeks back and doesn't violate any TOS. Why mention another site?
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You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
1/ Look up 'Junta' .. You may find misquoting ex-Soviet style press clips renders your contributions as worthless - and yes you are a mod - and wish I wasn't here - but if you repeat 'bollox' ..
2/ 'Fascist' parties polled two percent in BOTH free elections in UA... I am SURE you realise this
Euro Maidan were are a DIRECT result of brave people from all political spheres standing up to the cronyism and corruption in UA. That Yanu' ran before being arrested and you might suggest 'illegality' - especially after the TWO elections - suggests that you may be being overly selective as to the legitimacy of votes within Ukraine ...
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You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
1/ Look up 'Junta' .. You may find misquoting ex-Soviet style press clips renders your contributions as worthless - and yes you are a mod - and wish I wasn't here - but if you repeat 'bollox' ..
2/ 'Fascist' parties polled two percent in BOTH free elections in UA... I am SURE you realise this
Euro Maidan were are a DIRECT result of brave people from all political spheres standing up to the cronyism and corruption in UA. That Yanu' ran before being arrested and you might suggest 'illegality' - especially after the TWO elections - suggests that you may be being overly selective as to the legitimacy of votes within Ukraine ...
I'd call the kiev-ruling-body betweeh Yanukovich and Poroshenko Junta.
1) they were not elected legally, nor was Yanukovich legally removed. That means Junta is a valid description, no matter how much you wish otherwise.
As for the fascists, they got a lot more than 2%, you might want to look up more of the movements 'svoboda' and 'pravi sektor' , one is fascist, the other openly neo-nazi
Mark.
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Remember, Alfy is very unlikely to be writing as he honestly believes. He is trolling for effect and attention again.
In the past, when challenged on this type of activity he claimed to be acting as 'devil's advocate', sadly forgetting that the role is one used by the Roman Catholic church during the process of canonisation of saints and not part of normal forum etiquette.
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Remember, Alfy is very unlikely to be writing as he honestly believes. He is trolling for effect and attention again.
In the past, when challenged on this type of activity he claimed to be acting as 'devil's advocate', sadly forgetting that the role is one used by the Roman Catholic church during the process of canonisation of saints and not part of normal forum etiquette.
Always enjoy reading your ASSessment of my character, andrewfi - that you might be actually describing your good self brings a smile to my face ;)
Unlike you, I realise that Ukraine suffers from greed, corruption and score-settling from both 'sides' . Unlike you, I can spot that the Kremlin's hand in addition to encouragement from the west for those who were seeking to oust Yanu'.
IF correcting your narrow minded propaganda - normally obtained from dubious sources - constitutes 'trolling or seeking attention' I am indeed 'guilty' :)
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Ukraine's Economy Contracts 17.6 Pct as Conflict Takes Toll
By The Associated PressMay 15, 2015, 8:34 AMKIEV, Ukraine
— Ukraine's economy contracted by a stunning 17.6 percent in the first quarter of 2015 from a year earlier as the country struggles to cope with the impact of unrest in the industrial heartland of the east.The State Statistics Agency said Friday that the rate of economic slowdown worsened in every quarter last year.Eastern Ukraine, where many major industries and coalmines are located, has been the stage of bitter fighting between government and separatist forces since last April.The bloodshed has sparked the flight of 1.5 million people and left more than 7,000 people dead.This year's budget is predicated on an anticipated 5.5 percent drop in the size of the economy. Inflation is seen hitting at least 26.7 percent, although many economists believe it will be higher.
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Ukraine's Economy Contracts 17.6 Pct as Conflict Takes Toll
By The Associated PressMay 15, 2015, 8:34 AMKIEV, Ukraine
— Ukraine's economy contracted by a stunning 17.6 percent in the first quarter of 2015 from a year earlier as the country struggles to cope with the impact of unrest in the industrial heartland of the east.The State Statistics Agency said Friday that the rate of economic slowdown worsened in every quarter last year.Eastern Ukraine, where many major industries and coalmines are located, has been the stage of bitter fighting between government and separatist forces since last April.The bloodshed has sparked the flight of 1.5 million people and left more than 7,000 people dead.This year's budget is predicated on an anticipated 5.5 percent drop in the size of the economy. Inflation is seen hitting at least 26.7 percent, although many economists believe it will be higher.
Talk about a Third World Banana Republic with NO Bananas or much of anything else...
Desperate People do Desperate things and crime will explode and ladies will want out more than ever.
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Poroshenko says Minsk deal ‘pseudo-peace’, vows to fight to the last drop of blood
http://rt.com/news/258685-poroshenko-minsk-pseudo-peace/
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Poroshenko says Minsk deal ‘pseudo-peace’, vows to fight to the last drop of blood
http://rt.com/news/258685-poroshenko-minsk-pseudo-peace/
Just not his blood
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Ukraine crisis: 'Russian special forces' captured
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32776198
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The simple fact is few Ukrainians outside of Crimea and the Donbass want relations with Russia that exclude the EU. In fact given the choice in the west of Ukraine, Ukrainians choose the EU over Russia, even if it hurts Ukraine's relationship with Russia, by a solid majority of 66%.
Short of a coup and takeover of Ukraine by Russia or Putin's puppet army it doesn't look like Ukraine will be returning to the loving arms of Uncle Vlad anytime soon.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/180182/ukrainians-prefer-european-union-russia.aspx
(http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/vowctu8m1uepqwyriqz7nq.png)
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Ukrainians choose the EU over Russia,
Ukraine hasn't been offered the EU, so cannot 'choose' it. The EU doesn't want it.
'Close relations' means nothing. That is a poll designed to give a specific result. If you were a native English speaker, you would see that. Any poll result can be obtained if you frame the questions correctly.
So without Russia, they get nothing but American politicians securing their retirement plan by looting their largest companies after a war as we see now. Now the US has realised they will not win in Ukraine and Novorossiya is reality, they have chosen Macedonia as the next location for the proxy war on Russia.
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Ukrainians choose the EU over Russia,
Ukraine hasn't been offered the EU, so cannot 'choose' it. The EU doesn't want it.
So without Russia, they get nothing but American politicians securing their retirement plan by looting their largest companies after a war as we see now. Now the US has realised they will not win in Ukraine and Novorossiya is reality, they have chosen Macedonia as the next location for the proxy war on Russia.
Manny you have it backward. American politicians are not looting Ukrainian companies they are getting high paying jobs to do almost nothing as way to buy influence in the USA. So far the Ukraine has gotten almost nothing from America. They hope they can change that. America does not have much interest in the Ukraine so they are most likely wasting their money. It is just the Ukraine hates Russia and now even more than before.
Also their is a hope if these Americans are on the Gas companies board of director that maybe some American companies will feel safe enough to drill for the company. Their has been so much corruption in the Ukraine that the fields left to drill require something less than a major and almost none of them want to drill in the Ukraine.
Show me a link where some US politician has stolen a Ukraine state asset. Him getting a job in the Ukraine does not count. Remember he is getting paid for that job that is why he does it. Also they are not in a position where they could steal the asset. Being on the board of directors does not mean you have control of the company just a voice. They are not CEO or anything like that just a board member.
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/25/20-questions-for-those-who-back-putins-aggression-in-ukraine/
You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
comrade leslie ,
this is the view from the ukranian side , dont like there view ??
well tough for you ; ;D
interesting to see you did not dispute their points .
SX
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Ukrainians choose the EU over Russia,
Ukraine hasn't been offered the EU, so cannot 'choose' it. The EU doesn't want it.
And yet an Association Agreement was drafted and signed, temporarily on hold, but still signed. As you know an Association Agreement is the first step in EU membership. Obviously the EU wants Ukraine to join.
'Close relations' means nothing. That is a poll designed to give a specific result. If you were a native English speaker, you would see that. Any poll result can be obtained if you frame the questions correctly.
You can say that about any poll however the EU still drafted and signed the Association Agreement
So without Russia, they get nothing
There are many countries around the world smaller in size and GDP than Ukraine that do just fine. With competent leadership Ukraine could survive without Russia. Of course Ukraine would do better in the EU than with Russia. Russia being a mafia state and all. Currently Russia is cosying up to China as the 4th largest economy in a 5 country coalition known as the BRICS.
I can't see that relationship lasting too long. When Putin or his successor finds out that when the president of China says 'jump' the only recourse the president of Russia has is to say 'How high?' :laugh:
but American politicians securing their retirement plan by looting their largest companies after a war as we see now.
Haven't Russia politicians been looting Russian companies to secure their retirement for years?
Now the US has realised they will not win in Ukraine and Novorossiya is reality, they have chosen Macedonia as the next location for the proxy war on Russia.
Of course the Russian involvement in Macedonia is innocent? I wonder how many Russian soldiers are currently in Macedonia on vacation? :laugh:
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Poroshenko says Minsk deal ‘pseudo-peace’, vows to fight to the last drop of blood
Poroshenko should be careful what he wishes for.
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Poroshenko says Minsk deal ‘pseudo-peace’, vows to fight to the last drop of blood
Poroshenko should be careful what he wishes for.
Poroshenko's days are numbered. He knows that as well, he's trying to get out of it with more money+power than he went in.
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Ukraine hasn't been offered the EU, so cannot 'choose' it. The EU doesn't want it.
Manny, most Ukrainians DID support the route to eventual EU membership - through closer trade ties and loans, initially. That the Kremlin would not allow this to happen and sought to destabilise her and make her a basket-case rather than lose her means YOU may not be filtering data appropriately ;)
Now the US has realised they will not win in Ukraine and Novorossiya is reality, they have chosen Macedonia as the next location for the proxy war on Russia.
There is a real civil war going on in Ukraine in which Russia has physically participated, but those filters of yours won't see it
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China is not always as supportive of Moscow as many here would indicate.
http://www.joinfo.com/world/1001676_China-recognizes-that-Crimea-has-to-be-returned.html
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China is not always as supportive of Moscow as many here would indicate.
http://www.joinfo.com/world/1001676_China-recognizes-that-Crimea-has-to-be-returned.html
Here is how they show their lack of support. This is Chinese soldiers marching in Moscow on Victory Day as their leader - the one quoted in your article - Li Keqiang, is sat at Putin's elbow.
Not to mention joint military drills:
http://rt.com/news/259437-russia-china-navy-drills/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/11/china-invites-russian-troops-to-second-world-war-parade-in-beijing
I think you got misled, don't you? :coffeeread:
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/25/20-questions-for-those-who-back-putins-aggression-in-ukraine/
You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
comrade leslie ,
this is the view from the ukranian side , dont like there view ??
well tough for you ; ;D
interesting to see you did not dispute their points .
SX
It is interesting to see you spouting Ukraine propaganda. Since a while back you were asking the help and advice of this board on getting your step son to dodge his draft call up for the Ukraine army...
Tell me is your step son fighting shoulder to shoulder in Yatsenyuk's "Liberation Brigades" or is he safe in Australia and letting his step dad fight his battles on the internet boards :ROFL:
PS I never comment on Rubbish as it lends credibility.
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Manny,
remind us which BRICS nation 'supported' the Kremlin at the UN concerning UA's resolution over Crimea ? ....
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Manny,
remind us which BRICS nation 'supported' the Kremlin at the UN concerning UA's resolution over Crimea ? ....
You are missing the point Moby. Crimea was a necessary response. It is done.
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You are missing the point Moby. Crimea was a necessary response. It is done.
No, I just demonstrated your tendency to exaggerate - to 'prove' a point ... China is playing both sides and suiting China
Once again, re Crimea - you confuse de facto with de jure situations and the prolonged negative consequences for the locals
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China is just stroking Putin's ego. Then taking Russia for a ride. In all that stuff you posted there is nothing that really indicates any real help to Russia just something to keep Russia selling assets to China at rock bottom prices.
China and Russia will be putting up a friendly front for while going forward as it is benefiting China. China is the real winner in the Ukraine war. Russia is also selling China military technology that it would never sold before the war in the Ukraine. China needs to put on this front to get more technology from Russia yet.
In order to try to control China, Putin has an alliance with India. Putin needed money so bad it sold s400 missile system to China, which is an anti aircraft weapon. Just that this weapon has such a range that is can shoot down plane over much of India and Taiwan. To be able to get a weapon like that the Chinese will show up to any parade Putin wants them too. Even do a naval exercise together. It is just next year Russia will have to come up with another weapon or something to keep China's interest.
Russia has sold a large gas project and building pipelines very cheaply for China. This construction is being done in such away that Russia must sell gas to China or it would be able to sell the gas at all. Just think what the gas prices are going to be. Nothing like what Russia got in Europe. Military exercises are what all on the front page but behind the scenes China is doing Russia in.
The claim Ukraine has on Crimea is the same type of claim China has on Taiwan. China want Taiwan back regardless how the people vote because it is their. So now China supports Crimea being returned to the Ukraine. See what I mean, China has no friends, just countries it uses.
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the prolonged negative consequences for the locals
Yes they are all broken up about not being killed by the US puppets in Kiev.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw8hDdICcAAtBIN.jpg)
China has no friends, just countries it uses.
That sounds familiar.
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the prolonged negative consequences for the locals
Yes they are all broken up about not being killed by the US puppets in Kiev.
Oh yes...the 'puppets' that most Ukrainians voted for....twice..
As for the locals... I have seen what happens after prolonged isolation.... they will be like the Turkish Cypriots ...being more careful what they wished for....
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
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Doubtful. They will be joined to Russia/Novorossiya soon enough either by land or bridge. Still better than being bombed by chocolate boy IMO.
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Doubtful. They will be joined to Russia/Novorossiya soon enough either by land or bridge. Still better than being bombed by chocolate boy IMO.
Are you referring to Obama or to Poroshenko?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Doubtful. They will be joined to Russia/Novorossiya soon enough either by land or bridge. Still better than being bombed by chocolate boy IMO.
Are you referring to Obama or to Poroshenko?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I see what you did there. :chuckle:
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Doubtful. They will be joined to Russia/Novorossiya soon enough either by land or bridge. Still better than being bombed by chocolate boy IMO.
Are you referring to Obama or to Poroshenko?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I see what you did there. :chuckle:
Are you having more fun yet? :laugh:
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China is just stroking Putin's ego. Then taking Russia for a ride. In all that stuff you posted there is nothing that really indicates any real help to Russia just something to keep Russia selling assets to China at rock bottom prices.
China and Russia will be putting up a friendly front for while going forward as it is benefiting China. China is the real winner in the Ukraine war. Russia is also selling China military technology that it would never sold before the war in the Ukraine. China needs to put on this front to get more technology from Russia yet.
In order to try to control China, Putin has an alliance with India. Putin needed money so bad it sold s400 missile system to China, which is an anti aircraft weapon. Just that this weapon has such a range that is can shoot down plane over much of India and Taiwan. To be able to get a weapon like that the Chinese will show up to any parade Putin wants them too. Even do a naval exercise together. It is just next year Russia will have to come up with another weapon or something to keep China's interest.
Russia has sold a large gas project and building pipelines very cheaply for China. This construction is being done in such away that Russia must sell gas to China or it would be able to sell the gas at all. Just think what the gas prices are going to be. Nothing like what Russia got in Europe. Military exercises are what all on the front page but behind the scenes China is doing Russia in.
The claim Ukraine has on Crimea is the same type of claim China has on Taiwan. China want Taiwan back regardless how the people vote because it is their. So now China supports Crimea being returned to the Ukraine. See what I mean, China has no friends, just countries it uses.
Really. When did that happen, I wonder? Perhaps you could provide some detail to substantiate this statement of yours.
IMO, your understanding of geo political strategy is woeful.
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I assumed he was referring to the Indian army participating in the Victory Day parade (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-3074961/Indian-Army-steals-Moscow-s-Victory-Day-parade.html).
Not that that constitutes an alliance against China though. China seems to be Russia's new bestest mate. Might be something the American media made up though.
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China is just stroking Putin's ego. Then taking Russia for a ride. In all that stuff you posted there is nothing that really indicates any real help to Russia just something to keep Russia selling assets to China at rock bottom prices.
China and Russia will be putting up a friendly front for while going forward as it is benefiting China. China is the real winner in the Ukraine war. Russia is also selling China military technology that it would never sold before the war in the Ukraine. China needs to put on this front to get more technology from Russia yet.
In order to try to control China, Putin has an alliance with India. Putin needed money so bad it sold s400 missile system to China, which is an anti aircraft weapon. Just that this weapon has such a range that is can shoot down plane over much of India and Taiwan. To be able to get a weapon like that the Chinese will show up to any parade Putin wants them too. Even do a naval exercise together. It is just next year Russia will have to come up with another weapon or something to keep China's interest.
Russia has sold a large gas project and building pipelines very cheaply for China. This construction is being done in such away that Russia must sell gas to China or it would be able to sell the gas at all. Just think what the gas prices are going to be. Nothing like what Russia got in Europe. Military exercises are what all on the front page but behind the scenes China is doing Russia in.
The claim Ukraine has on Crimea is the same type of claim China has on Taiwan. China want Taiwan back regardless how the people vote because it is their. So now China supports Crimea being returned to the Ukraine. See what I mean, China has no friends, just countries it uses.
Really. When did that happen, I wonder? Perhaps you could provide some detail to substantiate this statement of yours.
IMO, your understanding of geo political strategy is woeful.
No way Putin is going to control China, simply not possible. The only thing Putin can do is limit Russia's exposure to China. IOW not rely too much on China for financing lost by western sanctions or as a market for Russian goods or a source for Russian imports. Things many western nations for some reason are incapable of doing.
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China is just stroking Putin's ego. Then taking Russia for a ride. In all that stuff you posted there is nothing that really indicates any real help to Russia just something to keep Russia selling assets to China at rock bottom prices.
China and Russia will be putting up a friendly front for while going forward as it is benefiting China. China is the real winner in the Ukraine war. Russia is also selling China military technology that it would never sold before the war in the Ukraine. China needs to put on this front to get more technology from Russia yet.
In order to try to control China, Putin has an alliance with India. Putin needed money so bad it sold s400 missile system to China, which is an anti aircraft weapon. Just that this weapon has such a range that is can shoot down plane over much of India and Taiwan. To be able to get a weapon like that the Chinese will show up to any parade Putin wants them too. Even do a naval exercise together. It is just next year Russia will have to come up with another weapon or something to keep China's interest.
Russia has sold a large gas project and building pipelines very cheaply for China. This construction is being done in such away that Russia must sell gas to China or it would be able to sell the gas at all. Just think what the gas prices are going to be. Nothing like what Russia got in Europe. Military exercises are what all on the front page but behind the scenes China is doing Russia in.
The claim Ukraine has on Crimea is the same type of claim China has on Taiwan. China want Taiwan back regardless how the people vote because it is their. So now China supports Crimea being returned to the Ukraine. See what I mean, China has no friends, just countries it uses.
Really. When did that happen, I wonder? Perhaps you could provide some detail to substantiate this statement of yours.
IMO, your understanding of geo political strategy is woeful.
No way Putin is going to control China, simply not possible. The only thing Putin can do is limit Russia's exposure to China. IOW not rely too much on China for financing lost by western sanctions or as a market for Russian goods or a source for Russian imports. Things many western nations for some reason are incapable of doing.
Think it will be China controlling Russia given the number of illegal Chinks in the Urals when I was there last - Will check gain in June and feedback!
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I assumed he was referring to the Indian army participating in the Victory Day parade (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-3074961/Indian-Army-steals-Moscow-s-Victory-Day-parade.html).
Not that that constitutes an alliance against China though. China seems to be Russia's new bestest mate. Might be something the American media made up though.
That's not really news, is it. India and the Rooskies have always had a good military relationship. Most of the Indian Inventory is Ex Soviet/Russian. Although they are now diversifying away from over reliance on the Russians after getting stung over the ex Admiral Gorshkov.
Btw, India has also participated in the Edinburgh Tatoo. Also has regular annual military exercises with the yanks. Don't mean they are in an "alliance"???????.
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I assumed he was referring to the Indian army participating in the Victory Day parade (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-3074961/Indian-Army-steals-Moscow-s-Victory-Day-parade.html).
Not that that constitutes an alliance against China though. China seems to be Russia's new bestest mate. Might be something the American media made up though.
Don't be fooled, remember the saying, keep your friends close,and your enemies closer.
If it came to war you can bet Russia and the United states would be on the same side,against China.
Russia has far too much to lose to China.
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I assumed he was referring to the Indian army participating in the Victory Day parade (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-3074961/Indian-Army-steals-Moscow-s-Victory-Day-parade.html).
Not that that constitutes an alliance against China though. China seems to be Russia's new bestest mate. Might be something the American media made up though.
Don't be fooled, remember the saying, keep your friends close,and your enemies closer.
If it came to war you can bet Russia and the United states would be on the same side, against China.
Russia has far too much lose to China.
I could not disagree more. The USA and Chinese economies are highly dependent on each other. No way that any wise US President would go to war against the Chinese; there is simply too much at stake (total collapse of the Worldwide economy to say the least). OTOH Russia is under populated and has the largest land mass of any country in the World.
No doubt China has been eyeing that land with envy. What would China gain by going to war with their number one trading partner (the USA)? Absolutely nothing. For now China is happy to make deals with Russia which further their long term goals. Whether or not those two remain allies in the next 100 years or so is improbable.
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Doubtful. They will be joined to Russia/Novorossiya soon enough either by land or bridge. Still better than being bombed by chocolate boy IMO.
Just like Turkey has been going to bring water from the Taurus mountains to Cyprus ?!
Can't find 'new russia' on any map....
Did Russia ever give Poroshenko his Choc factory in Lipesk back or bring a 'case' regarding the 'Copyright/ branding issues'?
Most of us can see what happens if you 'dare' stand for Presidency in UA and might not be the Kremlin's cup of tea.....
For those who didn't realise... they get poisoned, threatened with imprisonment or have assets seized in Russia under dubious pretexts.
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
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I assumed he was referring to the Indian army participating in the Victory Day parade (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-3074961/Indian-Army-steals-Moscow-s-Victory-Day-parade.html).
Not that that constitutes an alliance against China though. China seems to be Russia's new bestest mate. Might be something the American media made up though.
Don't be fooled, remember the saying, keep your friends close,and your enemies closer.
If it came to war you can bet Russia and the United states would be on the same side, against China.
Russia has far too much lose to China.
I could not disagree more. The USA and Chinese economies are highly dependent on each other. No way that any wise US President would go to war against the Chinese; there is simply too much at stake (total collapse of the Worldwide economy to say the least). OTOH Russia is under populated and has the largest land mass of any country in the World.
No doubt China has been eyeing that land with envy. What would China gain by going to war with their number one trading partner (the USA)? Absolutely nothing. For now China is happy to make deals with Russia which further their long term goals. Whether or not those two remain allies in the next 100 years or so is improbable.
Russia and the United states will not fight any large scale war against each other.
China is over populated, and there is lot of area to expand into Russia. Not to mention gas and oil.
At some point China will need to expand.
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These articles explain why the U.S.and Russia need each other.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5226435
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-russia-and-america-need-each-other
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These articles explain why the U.S.and Russia need each other.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5226435
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-russia-and-america-need-each-other
Both links are old. The 2nd link was 8 years old. We need Russia far less than we need China. In fact the USA and the West as a whole could soon mostly do without Russia. So the ball is in their court.
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http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/25/20-questions-for-those-who-back-putins-aggression-in-ukraine/
You might get away with quoting the mouthpiece of the fascist junta at the other place - but not here.
Go post this rubbish back there !
comrade leslie ,
this is the view from the ukranian side , dont like there view ??
well tough for you ; ;D
interesting to see you did not dispute their points .
SX
It is interesting to see you spouting Ukraine propaganda. Since a while back you were asking the help and advice of this board on getting your step son to dodge his draft call up for the Ukraine army...
Tell me is your step son fighting shoulder to shoulder in Yatsenyuk's "Liberation Brigades" or is he safe in Australia and letting his step dad fight his battles on the internet boards :ROFL:
PS I never comment on Rubbish as it lends credibility.
so you went straight for the personal insult line hey?? ;D
nice way to go ,
id say that shows your lack of credibility & inability to discredit the points discussed in that link old fella
SX
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http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/economic-toll-conflict-builds-ukraine-31144863
As bad as things are in Ukraine, the women should be very eager to get out of there.
One should be careful about becoming a mule, but right now would be the time to get your boots on the ground.
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russians-captured-in-ukraine-send-messages-back-home/ar-BBjXKhJ?ocid=U146DHP
The men say they are Russian soldiers who were captured and wounded while on active duty in the rebellious east, Ukrainian authorities say they are definitive proof that Russia is at war in Ukraine, and Moscow hotly denies the claims.
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In fact the USA and the West as a whole could soon mostly do without Russia.
America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
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America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
There are plenty of places to get your gas from...No need to rely on the the Russians.
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In fact the USA and the West as a whole could soon mostly do without Russia.
America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
But wouldn't it be better rather than going to war in East Ukraine if all of those Russian soldiers took a real vacation in a much nicer place?
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=24318.msg407195;topicseen#msg407195
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America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
There are plenty of places to get your gas from...No need to rely on the the Russians.
First, no there isn't. And second, Russia is a very reliable supplier. The transit country stealing it has caused issues though. (:)
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America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
There are plenty of places to get your gas from...No need to rely on the the Russians.
First, no there isn't. And second, Russia is a very reliable supplier. The transit country stealing it has caused issues though. (:)
This is true. Personally I certainly hope that both Russia and Ukraine can work out their differences peacefully going forward.
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Russia has not been a good supplier of gas to Europe. Russia has used the price of gas as a weapon charging each country a different price depending on how puppet like that country is to Russia. In the past Poland and Ukraine have often been stuck with the hightest price for gas.
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Russia has not been a good supplier of gas to Europe. Russia has used the price of gas as a weapon charging each country a different price depending on how puppet like that country is to Russia. In the past Poland and Ukraine have often been stuck with the hightest price for gas.
Apples and oranges. Being a good supplier doesn't mean they need to give it away. I have different prices for customers I like or who spend a lot. Ones who are a pain in the arse or a time sink pay more. I am sure anyone here in business does the same. Russia can charge what they like to who they like, its called market forces. That doesn't make them an unreliable supplier. Ukraine should pay more. They are an unreliable payer and they have a history of theft. Who gives such a customer good prices? :rolleye0009:
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America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
There are plenty of places to get your gas from...No need to rely on the the Russians.
First, no there isn't. And second, Russia is a very reliable supplier. The transit country stealing it has caused issues though. (:)
Transit Country Gaz vaporizing into thin air (diversion) issues solved a while ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semion_Mogilevich
Shortly before his death, Alexander Litvinenko alleged that Mogilevich has had a "good relationship" with Vladimir Putin since the 1993 or 1994 and that his arms sales included to Al Qaeda.[11]
Mogilevich was arrested in Moscow on January 24, 2008, for suspected tax evasion.[30][31] His bail was placed, and he was released on July 24, 2009. On his release, the Russian interior ministry stated that he was released because the charges against him "are not of a particularly grave nature".[32][33] On October 22, 2009, he was named by the FBI as the 494th fugitive to be placed on the Ten Most Wanted list, where he remains today.[34]
In spite of the warrants issued against him, he still lives freely in Moscow, according to the FBI.[35]
###
Clearly the Brainy Don was given a year and a half corrective interview and was contrite and agreed to do the Kremlin's bidding in exchange for freedom (to control all beneath the 9th level) across the FSU as long as that includes following direct orders from the Kremlin.
So you see if there is any Gaz missiing in UA transit now it is because of either rogue elements out of control but not for long or because the Kremlin wants to foment issues in UA that complicate matters for the west.
Putin is now more like a Czar than a mere mortal President and Chairman Emeritus of Russia, Inc.
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Cuffy, they have huge unpaid debts. Ukraine shouldn't be getting any gas at all until their new backers cough up what is owed. Only thanks to Putin's/Gazprom's benevolence is why Ukraine didn't freeze this winter.
Gazprom isn't a charity. Let Uncle Sam send them LNG at more $ and not get paid for it. Or pay for them. Only Russia is extending Ukraine credit for gas. Some aggressor.
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Cuffy, they have huge unpaid debts. Ukraine shouldn't be getting any gas at all until their new backers cough up what is owed. Only thanks to Putin's/Gazprom's benevolence is why Ukraine didn't freeze this winter.
Gazprom isn't a charity. Let Uncle Sam send them LNG at more $ and not get paid for it. Or pay for them. Only Russia is extending Ukraine credit for gas. Some aggressor.
Manny I have not accused Russia of being an aggressor - only that Chairman Putin of Russia, Inc., is a master of Machiavellian and Stalinist pragmatic politics. I rather admire the man as he rules with a combination of Brains and balls - something our neutered feminist LGBTQSTDs loving social justice warrior Obamunists had bred out of them long ago. Amazing how far the west has declined in just two generations since the greatest Generation saved the world from NAZI fascism, they would be dumbfounded to see what the world they saved has turned into.
As for UA debts that can never be repaid given current revenues and economic circumstances (Loss of vast tracts of income producing lands) ... in exchange for Crimea and NovoRossiya all UA debts should be cancelled by mother Russia then that just leaves the UA people at the mercy of being caught between rocks and hard places - the rapacious IMF debt enslavement bombers to the west and the Corrupt RU/UA Underworld and of course the politicians that play both sides against the middle being the suffering peoples of the RU and UA crisis regions.
We all know that Russia sets the price of Gaz and Petrol based upon how much cooperation they receive from consumer countries... The West and EU pays the full market price and cooperative countries get a cooperative price - UA is not one of the cooperative countries any more.
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Ukraine
Ukrainian forces says two drones shot down over war zone are Russian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/21/ukraine-drones-shot-down-russian
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EU agrees 1.8bn-euro loan to cash-strapped Ukraine
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32843610
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America yes, but Europe would freeze without Russian gas.
There are plenty of places to get your gas from...No need to rely on the the Russians.
First, no there isn't. And second, Russia is a very reliable supplier. The transit country stealing it has caused issues though. (:)
Sure there is...there are at least 30 other countries at min. to get your gas from..You'd need to do something novel though like pay market rates :-X :ROFL: :reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_proven_reserves
Rank Country/Region Natural gas
proven reserves
(m³) Date of
information
Total World 187,300,000,000,000
1 Russia 48,700,000,000,000 12 June 2013 est.[5]
2 Iran (see: Natural gas reserves in Iran) 33,600,000,000,000 12 June 2013 est.[7]
3 Qatar 24,700,000,000,000 June 2014.[8]
4 Turkmenistan 17,500,000,000,000 June 2014.[8]
5 United States 9,860,000,000,000 12 December 2013[9][10]
6 Saudi Arabia 8,600,000,000,000 June 2014.[8]
7 Iraq 6,400,000,000,000 1 January 2012 est.[11]
8 Venezuela 5,724,500,000,000 19 July 2011[12]
9 Nigeria 5,100,000,000,000 June 2014.[8]
10 Algeria 4,502,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
11 Bolivia 4,495,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.[13][14]
12 Australia 4,300,000,000,000 1 January 2014 est.[11]
13 China (see: Natural gas in China) 3,100,000,000,000 1 January 2012 est.[11]
14 Indonesia 3,001,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
15 Malaysia 2,350,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
16 Norway 2,313,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
17 United Arab Emirates 2,250,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
18 Kazakhstan 1,900,000,000,000 12 June 2013 est.[15]
19 Uzbekistan 1,841,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
20 Kuwait 1,798,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
21 Canada (see: Natural gas in Canada) 1,754,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
22 Egypt 1,656,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
23 Libya 1,539,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
24 Netherlands 1,416,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
25 Ukraine 1,104,000,000,000 1 January 2014 est.
26 India 1,075,000,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
27 Oman 849,500,000,000 1 January 2010 est.
28 Azerbaijan 849,500,000,000 1 January 2011 est.[1]
29 Pakistan 754,000,000,000 1 January 2014 est.[9]
30 Lebanon 750,400,000,000 1 January 2010 est
Also see: http://explorationworld.com/top10/127/Top-10-Countries-by-Proved-Natural-Gas-Reserves-and-Their-Production-Rates
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Eric, you DO know that getting gas from one point to another requires infrastructure?
Yes, there are other gas suppliers but without the means to economically provide the means of delivery then it is not possible for the gas to get where it is needed.
some people... :'(
...3,2,1: eric posts some monster sized map that he does not understand or a looong copy/paste of some other person's words that does not support any point eric is trying to make!
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Eric, you DO know that getting gas from one point to another requires infrastructure?
Yes, there are other gas suppliers but without the means to economically provide the means of delivery then it is not possible for the gas to get where it is needed.
some people... :'(
...3,2,1: eric posts some monster sized map that he does not understand or a looong copy/paste of some other person's words that does not support any point eric is trying to make!
There you go Andrew...running off at the mouth again as usual.
Are you actually suggesting Saudi Arabia has no idea how to transport LNG or NG across oceans? Perhaps you consider Norway to be too backwards to do much of anything? Do you think the US couldn't get the 'gas' to you? Let me guess you were already aware the offer had been extended to various interested parties....right.... (:)...yyyyyyeeeeaaaahhh.... What's next, will you go off on some less cogent tangent while the reality of the Sabine Pass liquefaction terminal stares right at you from this little planet the rest of us call earth?
Think before you type old boy.
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Rebels target coke plant and force it to shut down.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/24/us-ukraine-crisis-metinvest-idUSKBN0O906720150524?virtualBrandChannel=11563
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Who supplies gas to western Europe?
http://rt.com/business/261549-norway-gas-supply-europe/
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Who supplies gas to western Europe?
http://rt.com/business/261549-norway-gas-supply-europe/
There ya go using an RT link...that's one way to pass the Kremlin's apologist 'sniff test' for the cabal that likes to post here. Here's another different angle featuring Statprom, and this little country that everyone seems to forget about called Lithuania.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/business/energy-environment/lithuania-offers-example-of-how-to-break-russias-grip-on-energy.html
http://energycommerce.house.gov/icymi/us-lng-exports-can-supply-%E2%80%9Cindependence%E2%80%9D
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Who supplies gas to western Europe?
http://rt.com/business/261549-norway-gas-supply-europe/
There ya go using an RT link...that's one way to pass the Kremlin's apologist 'sniff test' for the cabal that likes to post here. Here's another different angle featuring Statprom, and this little country that everyone seems to forget about called Lithuania.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/business/energy-environment/lithuania-offers-example-of-how-to-break-russias-grip-on-energy.html
http://energycommerce.house.gov/icymi/us-lng-exports-can-supply-%E2%80%9Cindependence%E2%80%9D
excerpt from your link
"The vessel, the Independence, is a floating factory for converting liquefied natural gas into the burnable variety. It represents a direct challenge to the Russian way of doing business as many other countries in the European Union have dithered over how to deal with President Vladimir V. Putin and his attempts to reassert Russian influence over parts of the former Soviet empire like Ukraine.
“We are now an energy-secure state,” Dalia Grybauskaite, the Lithuanian president, said at a ceremony that featured martial touches like a naval brass band, red flares and a cannon salute. “Nobody else from now on will be able to dictate to us the price of gas, or to buy our political will, or to bribe our politicians.”
“If we don’t like it, we can drop it fully and totally,” Ms. Grybauskaite said, referring to a possible severing of relations with Gazprom, the government-controlled Russian gas exporter, which supplies all of Lithuania’s gas."
Good link, ECR844. Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
Could you show us an instance of Russia stopping gas to any country that didn't steal it or not pay for it?
FWIW, Lithuania is a US mouthpiece as are all the Baltics. They say lots of stuff that is meaningless to the media.
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
Could you show us an instance of Russia stopping gas to any country that didn't steal it or not pay for it?
Annexing Crimea through military force first of all. Invading East Ukraine and causing billions of dollars of damage and the loss of 6,000 souls second of all.
Putin and Russia have been playing extortionist games with their gas for many years. Now that Lithuania and others are finding the LNG solution to be more to their liking, you blame the USA.
Do you and Putin ever look in the mirror and take responsibility for his own actions? Blaming the USA and the West is rather tiresome.
Ultimately Putin is selling the same gas to the Chinese for less than he could have gotten from Europe. So go ahead and keep shooting yourself in the foot, if that's what you want to do.
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A few of Russia threats. They are many more.
http://crisisboom.com/2012/01/21/russian-threats-of-nuclear-war-grow-louder/
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Annexing Crimea through military force first of all.
Giving the people what they wanted and stopping the war spreading there. Not a shot fired. No threats.
Invading East Ukraine and causing billions of dollars of damage and the loss of 6,000 souls second of all.
If Russia invaded Ukraine, the US installed government in Kiev would be history in days. Ukraine is an other American regime change executed as part of an overall strategy. The east wanted no part of that. It must be the only 'invasion' in the world where nobody can prove who the 'invader' is. Not even a photo. :coffeeread:
Many of the dead you refer to are dead at the hands of the US backed Kiev regime. Forget that did you?
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Annexing Crimea through military force first of all.
You really have no idea what it takes to invade & control something as large as Crimea by force.
Crimea went home. Thats how the inhabitants see it, you'd do well to remember that.
I'll be back there in a month or 2.
Mark.
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Giving the people what they wanted and stopping the war spreading there. Not a shot fired. No threats.
??
I'm sure the relatives of the unarmed
1/ UA Major - held hostage by the Russian Military, shot whilst captive - during their military takeover and
2/ the relatives of the Tatar Reshat Ametov - beaten to death - will be 'grateful' for your 'putting us straight' ...
3/ Then there's the military observers of the OSCE -shots fired to stop them entering Crimea, to observe
or
4/ the unarmed Ukrainians marching with a UA and Soviet flag - to Belbek airbase - look it up on a map - some of us have actually been there - trying to turn up for work - while some Russian soldiers fire over their heads - don't you watch the British News, any more, Manny ?- You might be able disseminate fact from fiction ...
Your mantra re 'juntas' and 'US - controlled' simply demonstrates you 'forgot' there's been 2 elections in Ukraine.......
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Crimea went home. Thats how the inhabitants see it, you'd do well to remember that.
I'll be back there in a month or 2.
I know of two private parties who have been stripped of there land holdings on the Krim, even though they had the parcels for generations. But they were considered to close to Kiev. I understand it is a bitter pill, but such are the "fruits" of war.
If you doubt this look at the investment that Henckell made in the Krimart. . . .poof. Henkell still is producing sparkling "trocken" but from the Kivy region.
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I know of two private parties who have been stripped of there land holdings on the Krim, even though they had the parcels for generations. But they were considered to close to Kiev. I understand it is a bitter pill, but such are the "fruits" of war.
Last time I checked, Russia was still bound by the findings of the European Court of Human Rights... as Turkey found out in Cyprus - taking property from it's rightful owners - without a means of redress / compo - ultimately costs and makes property values crash
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I know of two private parties who have been stripped of there land holdings on the Krim, even though they had the parcels for generations. But they were considered to close to Kiev. I understand it is a bitter pill, but such are the "fruits" of war.
If you doubt this look at the investment that Henckell made in the Krimart. . . .poof. Henkell still is producing sparkling "trocken" but from the Kivy region.
Stripped by whom and for what.
2 private parties on a whole peninsula is not really impressive.
People shot, like Moby said is equally unimpressive.
Forcing people at gunpoint to vote for the Russian faction (Newspapers), or partying with vodka shouting we're going home (my own live experiences)
The last one , makes me doubt very seriously that even if some people turned up dead, that the Russians are to blame for it.
Mark.
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Their are people all over the Ukraine who used to live in Crimea who left because they felt more than in uninvited.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/07/crimea-enforced-disappearances
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Their are people all over the Ukraine who used to live in Crimea who left because they felt more than in uninvited.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/07/crimea-enforced-disappearances
Right, in the east its pro-russian terrorists, but these are crimean tatar 'activists'...
The leaders of crimea said :
Aksenov obviously loses self-control when I ask him a question why the leader of the Crimean Tatars Mustafa Dzhemilev was not allowed to return to the peninsula. He sharply tells me that Dzhemilev is "a terrorist" who kindles hostility between nations and is an agent of Western intelligence services in the Crimea. "Everybody knows it," he says in response to my bewilderment. "Nobody even tries to hide it".
From Lucie Ash's material "Nobody looks for the missing Crimean Tatars in the Crimea" at the BBC site, August 2014
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Annexing Crimea through military force first of all.
You really have no idea what it takes to invade & control something as large as Crimea by force.
And neither do you. You were not there nor were you privy to the Russian invasion plans for Crimea.
However this man was, in fact he was the chief organizer of the illegal annexation. Here is what he said:
excerpt
"Ex-insurgent leader Igor Girkin ('Strelkov') has admitted in a recent Russian TV interview that the March 2014 Crimean referendum was forced through by Russian occupation forces and received almost no local support."
Putin also has admitted that Russia took Crimea by force because he thinks it is a big joke he got to do this and the EU did nothing. Let's hope Putin keeps pushing his luck, just like Hitler did and tries to take the Baltics.
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
There are now about 800 Russian tanks built up in E. Ukraine. Don't bother trying to say that they are Ukrainian tanks captured by separatists, as many or most are tanks unique to Russia.
The civilized World does not believe a word out of Russia now. And that includes your leader, Cameron.
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1526874_771460566222790_3994850546619215698_n.jpg?oh=07fc4d83467334582c9beb0f53e90c02&oe=55C504E7)
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
There are now about 800 Russian tanks built up in E. Ukraine. Don't bother trying to say that they are Ukrainian tanks captured by separatists, as many or most are tanks unique to Russia.
The civilized World does not believe a word out of Russia now. And that includes your leader, Cameron.
This wont impress your side of the pond much (:)
An increase in communication and co operation between our two countries :thumbsup:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32877719
Cant live with them , but equally as Europe is finding out ........Cant live without them too :coffeeread:
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
There are now about 800 Russian tanks built up in E. Ukraine. Don't bother trying to say that they are Ukrainian tanks captured by separatists, as many or most are tanks unique to Russia.
The civilized World does not believe a word out of Russia now. And that includes your leader, Cameron.
This wont impress your side of the pond much (:)
An increase in communication and co operation between our two countries :thumbsup:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32877719
Cant live with them , but equally as Europe is finding out ........Cant live without them too :coffeeread:
I've already read about that and not impressed. It's a going through the motions type of thing. Meanwhile the civilized World will not recognize that Crimea is part of Russia, so they will continue to have that economic drain around their neck.
Relationship remains icy
http://www.cityam.com/216417/putin-praises-pm-7-may-win-talk-ukraine-remains-icy
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Russia trying harder to hid dead solders. There have been reporters showing up at graves of dead solders and asking questions. Now no more graves.
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-using-mobile-crematoriums-in-ukraine-2015-5
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
There are now about 800 Russian tanks built up in E. Ukraine. Don't bother trying to say that they are Ukrainian tanks captured by separatists, as many or most are tanks unique to Russia.
The civilized World does not believe a word out of Russia now. And that includes your leader, Cameron.
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1526874_771460566222790_3994850546619215698_n.jpg?oh=07fc4d83467334582c9beb0f53e90c02&oe=55C504E7)
From the angle of the foto's I can not confirm that these are so-called T90's a tank only in the Russian "arsenal". Also the back ground does not show a location, so it is basically useless.
The foto from before of the T90's in Lungansk and soldiers being blessed by a Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox church is clear evidence that Russia, was, is and will continue to be in Ukraine territory.
-
Annexing Crimea through military force first of all.
Giving the people what they wanted and stopping the war spreading there. Not a shot fired. No threats.
Invading East Ukraine and causing billions of dollars of damage and the loss of 6,000 souls second of all.
If Russia invaded Ukraine, the UK and US installed government in Kiev would be history in days. Ukraine is an other UK and American regime change executed as part of an overall strategy. The east wanted no part of that. It must be the only 'invasion' in the world where nobody can prove who the 'invader' is. Not even a photo. :coffeeread:
Many of the dead you refer to are dead at the hands of the UK and US backed Kiev regime. Forget that did you?
Please do remember the UK and USA are in fact geopoliticallly tied at the hip and one and the same for all practical political and economic purposes.
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Annexing Crimea through military force first of all.
Giving the people what they wanted and stopping the war spreading there. Not a shot fired. No threats.
Invading East Ukraine and causing billions of dollars of damage and the loss of 6,000 souls second of all.
If Russia invaded Ukraine, the UK and US installed government in Kiev would be history in days. Ukraine is an other UK and American regime change executed as part of an overall strategy. The east wanted no part of that. It must be the only 'invasion' in the world where nobody can prove who the 'invader' is. Not even a photo. :coffeeread:
Many of the dead you refer to are dead at the hands of the UK and US backed Kiev regime. Forget that did you?
Please do remember the UK and USA are in fact geopoliticallly tied at the hip and one and the same for all practical political and economic purposes.
We are absolutely NOT one and the same.
-
Annexing Crimea through military force first of all.
Giving the people what they wanted and stopping the war spreading there. Not a shot fired. No threats.
Invading East Ukraine and causing billions of dollars of damage and the loss of 6,000 souls second of all.
If Russia invaded Ukraine, the UK and US installed government in Kiev would be history in days. Ukraine is an other UK and American regime change executed as part of an overall strategy. The east wanted no part of that. It must be the only 'invasion' in the world where nobody can prove who the 'invader' is. Not even a photo. :coffeeread:
Many of the dead you refer to are dead at the hands of the UK and US backed Kiev regime. Forget that did you?
Please do remember the UK and USA are in fact geopoliticallly tied at the hip and one and the same for all practical political and economic purposes.
We are absolutely NOT one and the same.
Of course the US and UK are the same. Manny you've said so yourself. The UK is following the lead of the US. Cultural and economically linked. The US and UK are like Belarus and Russia. The UK is Belarus to the US's Russia. :laugh:
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You guys have as much of a US puppet government as the Ukraine. You guys voted for you pro US policy just like they did.
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Sounds to me like Putin's Russia better stop trying to bully their neighbors with military threats and gas stoppages and behave like other European nations do.
Could you show us any military threat Russia made to its neighbours?
There are now about 800 Russian tanks built up in E. Ukraine. Don't bother trying to say that they are Ukrainian tanks captured by separatists, as many or most are tanks unique to Russia.
The civilized World does not believe a word out of Russia now. And that includes your leader, Cameron.
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1526874_771460566222790_3994850546619215698_n.jpg?oh=07fc4d83467334582c9beb0f53e90c02&oe=55C504E7)
From the angle of the foto's I can not confirm that these are so-called T90's a tank only in the Russian "arsenal". Also the back ground does not show a location, so it is basically useless.
The foto from before of the T90's in Lungansk and soldiers being blessed by a Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox church is clear evidence that Russia, was, is and will continue to be in Ukraine territory.
They are the T72 version made in Russia and not available to Ukrainians.
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I wasn't aware that the Ukrainian armed forces fielded the 'Arena' system either. They certainly fielded Kontact-5, but IIRC not 'Arena'.
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interesting article here
SX
A signal to Russia: Ulrich Kühn on NATO’s exercises in northern Europe
A two-week NATO training exercise in northern Europe is now underway. We spoke with security expert Ulrich Kühn about the purpose of the military drills, and their effect on relations with Russia.
http://www.dw.de/a-signal-to-russia-ulrich-k%C3%BChn-on-natos-exercises-in-northern-europe/a-18479525
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I wasn't aware that the Ukrainian armed forces fielded the 'Arena' system either. They certainly fielded Kontact-5, but IIRC not 'Arena'.
Is this some sort of test? Kontack 5 is far more advanced than Arena, I believe. Could you expand on this?
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I wasn't aware that the Ukrainian armed forces fielded the 'Arena' system either. They certainly fielded Kontact-5, but IIRC not 'Arena'.
Is this some sort of test? Kontack 5 is far more advanced than Arena, I believe. Could you expand on this?
Arena is an active defense system focused primarily on protecting against ATGM and RPG type munitions; and Kontact-5 is a passive ERA defense system.
Kontact-5 was a late 80's early 90's program that has seen widespread export and use through a variety of nation states and presents some benefits that 'Arena' doesn't necessarily protect against.
'Rogatka, Malakhit, and Afganit' have emerged from testing as a combined, modular, retrofittable, Russian hybrid active, passive and ERA combo solution to the previous 'Kontact, and Arena' generation systems
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I wasn't aware that the Ukrainian armed forces fielded the 'Arena' system either. They certainly fielded Kontact-5, but IIRC not 'Arena'.
Is this some sort of test? Kontack 5 is far more advanced than Arena, I believe. Could you expand on this?
Arena is an active defense system focused primarily on protecting against ATGM and RPG type munitions; and Kontact-5 is a passive ERA defense system.
Kontact-5 was a late 80's early 90's program that has seen widespread export and use through a variety of nation states and presents some benefits that 'Arena' doesn't necessarily protect against.
'Rogatka, Malakhit, and Afganit' have emerged from testing as a combined, modular, retrofittable, Russian hybrid active, passive and ERA combo solution to the previous 'Kontact, and Arena' generation systems
Thanks very much for your reply. Initially this was very confusing to me but I've been reading more about these systems and what you wrote makes complete sense, ie Arena being an active system (some sort of smoke grenade or such is shot out around the tank apparently to confuse and distract an incoming missile to go off far enough away from the tank to protect the occupants).
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Ukraine humanitarian crisis ‘one of the world’s worst’ – UN refugee agency
http://rt.com/news/262569-ukraine-refugees-crisis-russia/
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Martial law in Ukraine can be declared within hours - Poroshenko
http://rt.com/news/262849-ukraine-martial-law-poroshenko/
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Martial law in Ukraine can be declared within hours - Poroshenko
http://rt.com/news/262849-ukraine-martial-law-poroshenko/
The enabling legislation was passed a few weeks ago as I recall. However, declaring martial law is not something that they'd want to do. Doing so would be to write off any hope of IMF money, inward investment, loans etc. Poroshenko himself notes that they'd even lose military aid of the type already being supplied by the US and some EU members. Martial law is a specific legal concept, whilst I am not a lawyer, my recollection is that there has usually to be a war. IMF will not support a borrower at war and, of course, nor will anyone else - with the possible exception of arms suppliers for weapons.
Martial law means that the normal activities of the government are suspended and in that context may be used by Poroshenko as the commander in chief of the military to act without having to consider the Rada and ministers.
If the current incumbents just want to give themselves power to extend their oppression to targets outside on the current anti terrorism zone then declaring a state of emergency would be a better bet. Ukraine really does not want to have a war.
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Where does this money go? I've read hundreds of articles on Ukraine, and assistance from other countries actually reaching those in need.
But with Kiev's refusal to give aid to war zone areas, none of this money will be used to help those that most need it.
THE UNITED STATES ANNOUNCES 18 M ILLION IN ADDITIONAL HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE FOR UKRAINE CRISIS
Media NoteOffice of the SpokespersonWashington, DCMay 27, 2015Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Population, Refugees, and Migration Simon Henshaw announced May 23 in Kiev that the United States is providing $18 million in additional U.S. humanitarian assistance to help those affected by Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine and Crimea. With this new funding, total U.S. humanitarian assistance since the start of the crisis will reach more than $61 million.The United States remains concerned by the growing humanitarian crisis in eastern Ukraine, particularly in areas occupied by combined Russian-separatist forces, and the limits on assistance agencies’ response due to the underfunding of humanitarian appeals. More than five million people in Ukraine are in need of aid, according to the UN, including 1.2 million internally displaced persons. Single-headed households, the disabled, and the elderly are particularly vulnerable. Civilians’ freedom of movement and the inability of international humanitarian organizations to access individuals in need of assistance are also greatly concerning.We call on all those involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine to facilitate the quick and safe movement of civilian populations as they seek to cross the ceasefire line. We call on Ukraine, Russia, and the separatists it backs, to fully implement the February Minsk implementation plan, particularly to allow international humanitarian organizations unhindered access to persons affected by conflict, and thereby ensure safe access, delivery, storage, and distribution of humanitarian assistance. We urge progress in the Trilateral Contact Group working groups, which will facilitate implementation of the Minsk agreements and a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Ukraine.The $18 million from the Department of State’s Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration will support the activities of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the International Organization for Migration (IOM), and the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA). This funding will support efforts to meet the most critical protection and assistance needs of persons affected by the conflict in eastern Ukraine, including the provision of food, hygiene items, medical supplies, and essential household items such as blankets, plastic sheeting, and construction materials to repair homes. This funding will also support the prevention of and response to gender-based violence and improved access to health care services
http://m.state.gov/md242946.htm
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Tom Cat, the simple answer to your question is that the money is stolen. OK the amounts are tiny but as you recall from another article you copy/pasted the Kiev regime offered just $250,000 to Donbass and that isn't even a firm commitment, that money will come only if the regime approves of the political incumbents after polls in forthcoming elections.
The amounts of theft are eye watering!
Last year Ukraine received $3.2 billion in assistance. A few months later $3.1billion was traced as having left Ukraine. As I recall this was money to help recapitalise the banks. Most simply was pocketed by the bank owners. Most egregiously by Kolomoisky the owner of Privatbank.
When aid is provided, not just to Ukraine but in general, it is usual to budget a part of that to be taken by recipients for their own benefit. Ukraine has been taking that form of graft to a new dimension.
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Tom Cat, the simple answer to your question is that the money is stolen. OK the amounts are tiny but as you recall from another article you copy/pasted the Kiev regime offered just $250,000 to Donbass and that isn't even a firm commitment, that money will come only if the regime approves of the political incumbents after polls in forthcoming elections.
The amounts of theft are eye watering!
Last year Ukraine received $3.2 billion in assistance. A few months later $3.1billion was traced as having left Ukraine. As I recall this was money to help recapitalise the banks. Most simply was pocketed by the bank owners. Most egregiously by Kolomoisky the owner of Privatbank.
When aid is provided, not just to Ukraine but in general, it is usual to budget a part of that to be taken by recipients for their own benefit. Ukraine has been taking that form of graft to a new dimension.
Which is why certain people in Russia intend to collect. I can't imagine borrowing money from the Sicilian mafia and then trying to skip out on the debt. I figure doing it to Russia is worse. Which is a big reason I have begun to think the USA and the West in general sit this one out. Let Russia and then Poland give Ukraine what she needs. :-X
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The Russian loans are now a tool. The actions of the US and Ukraine has forced Russia to weaponise them. Payment is not the most important outcome now. Repayment will, if it happens, come because it suits Russia. However the US can not stand back because of who holds Ukraine's debt.
Remember this, Russia does not want to take over Ukraine or to pay for the place. They want, as they have said consistently, independent, solvent and nonaligned (militarily). What more can be expected of Ukraine than that and how unreasonable as a goal for a neighbouring country is that?
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The Russian loans are now a tool. The actions of the US and Ukraine has forced Russia to weaponise them. Payment is not the most important outcome now. Repayment will, if it happens, come because it suits Russia. However the US can not stand back because of who holds Ukraine's debt.
Remember this, Russia does not want to take over Ukraine or to pay for the place. They want, as they have said consistently, independent, solvent and nonaligned (militarily). What more can be expected of Ukraine than that and how unreasonable as a goal for a neighbouring country is that?
It might be that if our next US President is a pragmatic Republican, then we will not push this issue to far one way or another. We (the USA and our allies) need only look at the Cuban missile crisis to know that we were a tiny fraction of an inch away from Nuclear war because of sphere of influence.
I would have personally preferred Ukraine had been sufficiently armed to defend their E. territories one year ago. One year has passed and Obama the Nothing did nothing. Too late now. I personally hope there is peace somehow going forward to protect the lives of civilians, however the hands have been dealt. Soon come the final plays.
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Tom Cat, the simple answer to your question is that the money is stolen. OK the amounts are tiny but as you recall from another article you copy/pasted the Kiev regime offered just $250,000 to Donbass and that isn't even a firm commitment, that money will come only if the regime approves of the political incumbents after polls in forthcoming elections.
The amounts of theft are eye watering!
Last year Ukraine received $3.2 billion in assistance. A few months later $3.1billion was traced as having left Ukraine. As I recall this was money to help recapitalise the banks. Most simply was pocketed by the bank owners. Most egregiously by Kolomoisky the owner of Privatbank.
When aid is provided, not just to Ukraine but in general, it is usual to budget a part of that to be taken by recipients for their own benefit. Ukraine has been taking that form of graft to a new dimension.
The irony of andrewfi criticising alleged theft in UA and omitting to mention the extortion of separatists in Donbass and theft of property in Crimea - based on 'non -support' of the 'new way'..
Then we have the arbitration award to the shareholders of Yukos - 50 billion USD - following the Kremlin's "unlawful expropriation" using "illegitimate" tax bills, whose effect was intended to "destroy Yukos and gain control over its assets.
Yes, Ukraine has suffered from corruption - but it is not in the same league as her larger neighbour - who's leaders have become rich - mainly at the expense of Oligarchs who made the mistake of becoming outspoken, politically
As ever, your responses / opinions do not reflect balance
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Tom Cat, the simple answer to your question is that the money is stolen. OK the amounts are tiny but as you recall from another article you copy/pasted the Kiev regime offered just $250,000 to Donbass and that isn't even a firm commitment, that money will come only if the regime approves of the political incumbents after polls in forthcoming elections.
The amounts of theft are eye watering!
Last year Ukraine received $3.2 billion in assistance. A few months later $3.1billion was traced as having left Ukraine. As I recall this was money to help recapitalise the banks. Most simply was pocketed by the bank owners. Most egregiously by Kolomoisky the owner of Privatbank.
When aid is provided, not just to Ukraine but in general, it is usual to budget a part of that to be taken by recipients for their own benefit. Ukraine has been taking that form of graft to a new dimension.
The irony of andrewfi criticising alleged theft in UA and omitting to mention the extortion of separatists in Donbass and theft of property in Crimea - based on 'non -support' of the 'new way'..
Then we have the arbitration award to the shareholders of Yukos - 50 billion USD - following the Kremlin's "unlawful expropriation" using "illegitimate" tax bills, whose effect was intended to "destroy Yukos and gain control over its assets.
Yes, Ukraine has suffered from corruption - but it is not in the same league as her larger neighbour - who's leaders have become rich - mainly at the expense of Oligarchs who made the mistake of becoming outspoken, politically
As ever, your responses / opinions do not reflect balance
Ukraine is just one side of a two sided coin. Same coin, same ethics, same ability to whitewash their history. Oh! Wait a moment, Russia came clean about Stalin. Ukraine has their version of Himmler, who is Bandera. Yet they think he is a "hero". Consequently they've set themselves up for some Karma.
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The Russian loans are now a tool. The actions of the US and Ukraine has forced Russia to weaponise them. Payment is not the most important outcome now. Repayment will, if it happens, come because it suits Russia. However the US can not stand back because of who holds Ukraine's debt.
Remember this, Russia does not want to take over Ukraine or to pay for the place. They want, as they have said consistently, independent, solvent and nonaligned (militarily). What more can be expected of Ukraine than that and how unreasonable as a goal for a neighbouring country is that?
Andrew, I like your insight. You are closer than most.
However, Russia does not seek a non-aligned Ukraine. They want an enslaved Ukraine - hence the loan repayment and the leverage they use it for.
IF Russia wanted a non-aligned Ukraine, they would have negotiated that with Yanukovych instead of forcing him to take all or nothing with the Soviet [sic] realignment.
I spoke with people on Maidan, they were not dis-illusioned American puppets, they merely wanted real freedom from corrupt Oligarchs, corrupt Politicians, and corruption in general - I specifically asked.
The two-headed beast that became Maidan was the West using Maidan for their propaganda, and Russia using it for hers ....
What scared me, and I should have payed more attention, was the FEAR Russian nationals had of being identified as attending the Maidan. Even though they were only there as tourists - again I asked a little, but not too much. At that time, I saw Maidan as benign and not really capable of doing much.
Ukraine is between the West and Russia. Currently, there are around 6 proxy wars between the two sides .... Russia cannot easily extend force beyond Ukraine. Although they did extend force into Syria for about a year, and it was after Russia realigned mercenaries to the Maidan Massacre, Crimea, and Donbas that ISIS took off.
Without anyone to cut that snake up, ISIS went to work .... I think Obama should have listened more to Putin when he was willing to talk about the world state of affairs.
I think you and I view things closer to the truth than most. I just happened to have chatted with a few politicians and soldiers that give me a different insight.
Wayne
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Andrew,
Do you know the total Ukraine to Russia debt outstanding?
I see 39-40 Billion owed for 'gas.'
And I see Russia bought 15 Billion in Euro bonds.
Are these the total debt outstanding? I would doubt that. And I do not see if debts are in Dollars, Euros, or other.
I would think you know the answer.
Thank you,
Wayne
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Wayne, you are wrong. Sorry, but that's how it is.
The EU were refusing to allow Ukraine to work with Russia, that was, in part the source for concern about costs that Yanukovych raised with the EU and which the EU refused to help with.
The loan offered by Russia, $15 billion was not contingent on joining the EEU. Russia has stated that while they'd have preferred that Ukraine did not sign the EU Association Agreement that the issue faced was not the joining but the refusal by the EU to work with Russia, the single biggest trading partner of Ukraine to sort out issues arising.
The lack of communication was a reason why, at a late stage, the EU decided to postpone implementation of the economic section of the agreement with a view to having discussions with Russia, to belatedly deal with these issues.
Here's a link to an article outlining the terms and background to the $15billion loan and gas discount package: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_December_2013_Ukrainian–Russian_action_plan
As you can see the situation was not as you imagine it to be.
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Andrew, I would like to read it, however the link is bad. If you have a better article on that, please post it.
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'love' the way the likes of andrewfi and Manny gloss over that the Kremlin ordered that all commercial traffic be stopped and searched for a week in August '13 - to demonstrate the 'suicide' of signing the EU Association agreement - the words of the govt. head of the Russia Customs - and then post things like, '' the EU / US 'forced' Ukraine, while Russia merely only wished that she not sign up...''
Both camps applied pressure in differing ways. Only one now allows men and arms to flow freely into Ukraine ....
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'love' the way the likes of andrewfi and Manny gloss over that the Kremlin ordered that all commercial traffic be stopped and searched for a week in August '13 - to demonstrate the 'suicide' of signing the EU Association agreement - the words of the govt. head of the Russia Customs - and then post things like, '' the EU / US 'forced' Ukraine, while Russia merely only wished that she not sign up...''
Both camps applied pressure in differing ways. Only one now allows men and arms to flow freely into Ukraine ....
If they had joined the EU, the deathtoll would have been higher, as they were not allowed to sell to Russia whilst meanwhile quality control meant they can also not sell to the EU itself despite the agreement.
Mark.
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The link is fine, just copy/paste the whole thing into your browser if you have a problem.
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Only one now allows men and arms to flow freely into Ukraine ....
Who allows men and arms into Ukraine apart from America?
Russia is alleged to be supporting what are now independent regions. Those places are no longer part of Ukraine in its current form.
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Russia is alleged to be supporting what are now independent regions. Those places are no longer part of Ukraine in its current form.
Many people seem unaware of that fact, that the only parties to recognise those areas are not in Ukraines are Ukraine and Russia.
Thats right, Ukraine itself denies these regions so they have become independant.
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Russia is alleged to be supporting what are now independent regions. Those places are no longer part of Ukraine in its current form.
Many people seem unaware of that fact, that the only parties to recognise those areas are not in Ukraines are Ukraine and Russia.
Thats right, Ukraine itself denies these regions so they have become independant.
That's the weird thing here. It is Ukraine who have made it clear that the region is not part of Ukraine by legislation, speech and practice. By withdrawing their obligations to their citizens and setting up border controls and a travel document scheme they have, in practice, shown that the region is now separate to Ukraine.
Russia still treats the region as part of Ukraine and has not recognised the region as not being part of Ukraine. If the Minsk 2 protocols are implemented by Ukraine then even the Ukraine/Russia borders that are currently manned by Novorossians will pass back to Kievan control.
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^ I wonder if the wack-job is still planning on building a fence on the entire length of the Ukraine/Russia border.
Referencing the boondoggle that is and was the Great Fence Of Ukraine a few days ago it was announced that the fence is to be altered. Due to concerns about theft the border fence project will be modified. Gone is the fence. Gone are the water filled moats. Gone are the surveillance systems. Henceforth the Great Fence Of Ukraine will simply be a bulldozed trench running along the border with occasional border towers. It will, of course, as before, not include that part of the border currently managed by the border guards appointed by the LPR and DPR.
However, because Russia wants to cut back on fighters, weapons and ammunition crossing the border they are in the process of building a system of fences and trenched along the border (http://rt.com/news/262257-border-trench-russia-ukraine/) between the LPR/DPR and Russia. Thus far about 40Km of fortified walls and 100Km of trenches has been completed. As a result of inspections at the border and interdicted crossing attempts significant amounts of weapons and ammo have been picked up. The Russian Border Service said that it intercepted over 60 illegal weapons shipments across the border since the beginning of the year. In doing so, it confiscated 40 firearms, 200 grenades, 100 shells and 40 landmines.
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I had no Idea that there are 400,000 Ukraine "guest visa" workers in Poland - the Poles perhaps out of a sense of there but for the grace of God go us have really done some heavy lifting for Ukraine economic and warfare refugees.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/world/europe/ukrainian-migrants-fleeing-conflict-get-a-cool-reception-in-europe.html?_r=0
Per NYT seems the rest of the Euro nations more interested in rescuing Syrian Muslims than Ukraine Christians.
Dr. Jaroszewicz estimated that there were about 400,000 Ukrainians now in Poland, many of them having arrived since the conflict began. Last year, more than 300,000 Ukrainians applied for short-term work visas, the most common type of visa they seek and the first step toward obtaining what they most want: official resident status.
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There's about 1.5 million of them in Russia.
Yesterday I linked to a brief but useful eBook about basic economics.
The author mentions using a book by Michael Melvin. That encouraged me to pick up one of mine by him, written with Steven Husted. Called International Economics it assumes the bonehead stuff in the eBook I noted yesterday. a current 9th edition can be had for $200 on Amazon or you can get an earlier edition for as little as $10 also from Amazon.
When you read and understand this first year book you will be the equal of most journalists and ahead of many soi disant 'gurus' misleading the undereducated who consume the popular media. International Economics covers money, debt, money flows, international trade etc etc.
Get this under your belt and you start to be able to manipulate models and concepts so that you will be able to understand when you are being misled.
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http://news.yahoo.com/imf-lowers-ukraines-2015-growth-projection-minus-9-191505029.html
IMF lowers Ukraine's 2015 growth projection to minus nine percent
.- The IMF said Sunday it has lowered its growth forecast for Ukraine's war battered economy to minus nine percent, due in large part to "the unresolved conflict in the East."The dismal projection -- down from a forecast in April of minus five percent -- followed a two-week-long visit by an International Monetary Fund delegation to Kiev earlier this month.Inflation in Ukraine will hit an estimated 46 percent, officials said, largely due to the skyrocketing price of oil and a large exchange rate depreciation in February.The Fund's Ukrainian mission chief Nikolay Gueorguiev said in a statement summing up the preliminary findings from the May 12-29 meetings, said the talks were "constructive."The IMF did see some encouraging signs of growing stability, the Fund official said."In recent months, signs that economic stability is gradually taking hold are steadily emerging," said Gueorguiev."The foreign exchange market has remained broadly stable. Gross international reserves, although still very low, have increased to US$9.6 billion at end-April. Banks' deposits in domestic currency have been recovering," he said.The IMF last month made a risky new $17.5 billion loan to Ukraine after eight failed programs with the country, stressing the government was committed to discipline and reform after decades of government mismanagement and corruption.Fund officials have said that as recently as 2013 there was no will among Kiev's leaders to undertake the reforms needed to right its economy -- especially to counter massive corruption -- but that that appears to have changed under its new leadership.Nevertheless, Ukraine's economy has been weighted down because of the ongoing conflict with pro-Moscow separatists that has left more than 6,000 dead.The strain of the war has emptied the government's coffers and run down its foreign reserves to a bare minimum, putting it on track to default on its huge debt load
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That's a HUGE underestimate.
Basics: the Donbas region accounted for some 25% of GDP in Ukraine. That revenue, whatever remains, is no longer part of rump Ukraine's economy. So, there goes 25%. Possibly they amortise that deficit over two years, since March 2014 in which case we are still looking at a deficit, per year of 13%.
The we know that Russia accounted for 30% of Ukrainian exports. Without checking I don't know the contribution of rump Ukraine net of Donbas production but that is another bye-bye for Ukraine.
Then we have inflation which has been put at an underestimated figure of 46% which means that domestic consumers have stopped spending on anything other than essentials but, assume that most Ukrainians are in absolute terms no better off in income terms than a year ago so they can spend roughly 50% less in real terms on goods within the economy. If we assume that consumers contribute about 70% of GDP then there goes around 35% decrease in growth.
So, even with cocktail napkin calculations we see an easy 50% decrease in output from the Ukrainian economy.
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That's a HUGE underestimate.
Basics: the Donbas region accounted for some 25% of GDP in Ukraine. That revenue, whatever remains, is no longer part of rump Ukraine's economy.
So, even with cocktail napkin calculations we see an easy 50% decrease in output from the Ukrainian economy.
Are are assuming that any output / profit a firm makes in Donbass - under occupation - cannot be included in UA's economic data, now ...have the 'separatists' nationalised non-supporting Oligarchs businesses?
Another example of andrewfi's 'statistics' ....
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Are are assuming that any output / profit a firm makes in Donbass - under occupation - cannot be included in UA's economic data, now ...have the 'separatists' nationalised non-supporting Oligarchs businesses?
Another example of andrewfi's 'statistics' ....
No Andrew is right in this case, they do not want the burdon of those citizens, are not paying for them, so they should not profit from them either.
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No Andrew is right in this case, they do not want the burdon of those citizens, are not paying for them, so they should not profit from them either.
So, Markje, have the businesses of non-supporting Oligarchs been 'nationalised' ...
If not, any turnover is still in Ukraine.
The only thing I agree with it the understating of the downturn in UA's economy
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No Andrew is right in this case, they do not want the burdon of those citizens, are not paying for them, so they should not profit from them either.
So, Markje, have the businesses of non-supporting Oligarchs been 'nationalised' ...
If not, any turnover is still in Ukraine.
The only thing I agree with it the understating of the downturn in UA's economy
The point is moot, even if they do nationalize them, do you think it will benefit the UA-govt?
If they are not nationalised, do you think the proceeds goto UA? Or would the oligarchs leave the region and do their business outside of donbass , which could be difficult since the raw materials are still within donbass.
Either way, Kiev does not profit.
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That's a HUGE underestimate.
Basics: the Donbas region accounted for some 25% of GDP in Ukraine. That revenue, whatever remains, is no longer part of rump Ukraine's economy.
So, even with cocktail napkin calculations we see an easy 50% decrease in output from the Ukrainian economy.
Are are assuming that any output / profit a firm makes in Donbass - under occupation - cannot be included in UA's economic data, now ...have the 'separatists' nationalised non-supporting Oligarchs businesses?
Another example of andrewfi's 'statistics' ....
This is why it makes sense to learn a little about economics. ;)
The 'statistics' are not mine. I commented upon the post of another person.
For the uneducated moby. A set of numbers is not statistics. Statistics is the collection and analysis of large amounts of numeric data.
In the context of the copy/pasted article upon which I was commenting, given that the Kievan authorities have withdrawn banking and other economic functionality from the Donbas region they describe as the ATO they can not collect taxes or benefit from any revenues from the region. The state of Ukraine sees little or no benefit from economic activity in the region and therefore such activity can not legitimately be included in the national figures. The LPR/DPR are raising taxes on incomes and businesses, that money is not remitted to Kiev.
However, as can be seen from the inflation figures and what we know of consumer activity we can be pretty sure that 9% is only a very small part of the reduction in economic output of Ukraine.
If the uneducated moby can suggest a fact based rationale to support a contrary point of view then why not share it with us? Personally I am always happy to learn. :)
If, as is likely, you can not, then why waste your time and everyone else's by going on about stuff that you know nothing about - or is boredom now back in your life to such a degree that you once again seek to waste everybody else's time in order to assuage your deathly ennui?
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01 June 2015, 13:07
Orthodox believers ask Poroshenko to protect churches from illegal takeovers
Moscow, June 1, Interfax - Parishioners of the Rovno Diocese turn to Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko with the request to protect them."Parishioners of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the only canonical Orthodox church in the state, have become victims of the disgusting and terrific phenomenon - illegal church takeover," they say in their open letter addressed to Poroshenko and posted by the Rovno Diocese website.Over 900 residents living in certain villages of the regions signed the letter, they pointed out to the facts of forceful takeovers of the churches, saying that "representatives of the so-called Kiev Patriarchate" attacked church communities."They spread rumors that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church supports separatism. Though in fact they are separatists as they separate Ukrainians, by deceit force them to change confession, create hostility between branches of Orthodox faith and call our Orthodox Church hostile to the Ukrainian state," the letter reads."How can we speak about approaching to Europe, when Middle Age savagery and disregard of basic human rights reign in the very heart of Ukraine?" local residents wonder.They urge Poroshenko "to prove that Ukraine has started living on principles of legality and morals," and asked "to prevent terrific plague of religious separatism
http://interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12055
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01 June 2015, 13:07
Orthodox believers ask Poroshenko to protect churches from illegal takeovers
Moscow, June 1, Interfax - Parishioners of the Rovno Diocese turn to Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko with the request to protect them."Parishioners of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the only canonical Orthodox church in the state, have become victims of the disgusting and terrific phenomenon - illegal church takeover," they say in their open letter addressed to Poroshenko and posted by the Rovno Diocese website.Over 900 residents living in certain villages of the regions signed the letter, they pointed out to the facts of forceful takeovers of the churches, saying that "representatives of the so-called Kiev Patriarchate" attacked church communities."They spread rumors that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church supports separatism. Though in fact they are separatists as they separate Ukrainians, by deceit force them to change confession, create hostility between branches of Orthodox faith and call our Orthodox Church hostile to the Ukrainian state," the letter reads."How can we speak about approaching to Europe, when Middle Age savagery and disregard of basic human rights reign in the very heart of Ukraine?" local residents wonder.They urge Poroshenko "to prove that Ukraine has started living on principles of legality and morals," and asked "to prevent terrific plague of religious separatism
http://interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12055
For the good order Rovno is in fact Rivne in Ukraine, in the North West of the country. As I noted in my TR it has a long standing, large and active Protestant community.
I find it odd that this report comes from Moscow and refers to the region by the Russian name for the city/oblast.
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I find it odd that this report comes from Moscow and refers to the region by the Russian name for the city/oblast.
The last part is not odd at all, if we have news about Paris, France we also name it by the Dutch name.
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I find it odd that this report comes from Moscow and refers to the region by the Russian name for the city/oblast.
The last part is not odd at all, if we have news about Paris, France we also name it by the Dutch name.
True, except the notice/press release is in English so one should use the internationally accepted name for the region/city. It is addressed to the President of Ukraine.
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Video Proof the Rooskie SU-24 was cooperating with the USS Ross so they could get some real time target tracking practice in the Black Sea...
http://int.msn.com/en-us/video/watch/watch-a-russian-jet-fly-close-to-a-us-navy-ship/vi-BBkuHgJ?ocid=ansCNN11
Turns out the reason they were only tracked and not shot down as hostiles was they were flying without the typical Soviet Style bristling load of weapons - only thier Space Alien Jamming Technology from the 70's that somehow controlled the Russian media's minds to create such a propaganda fantasy about "scaring the US Sailors back to port".
I knew it was total bull shite the moment the RUA or the Russian Ukraine Alien conspiracy academy professors (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) started spouting the propaganda from their Moscow Media Masters.
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This is why it makes sense to learn a little about economics. ;)
'Thanks' - I had a great teacher and he would have laughed at most of your opinions/ conclusions, too ... :chuckle:
The 'statistics' are not mine. I commented upon the post of another person.
I'm 'sorry' I missed the point where the post I picked you up on mentioned your 'sources' ... Most of are aware that stats from others used to 'prove' a point are usually 'sourced' to add 'credence' to an opinion ...
For the uneducated moby. A set of numbers is not statistics. Statistics is the collection and analysis of large amounts of numeric data.
I 'see', so when has economic data stopped being a collection of data, formulated to be analysed and compared ..... Surely, andrewfi wasn't expecting to 'get away' with such a crassly daft assertion....
In the context of the copy/pasted article upon which I was commenting, given that the Kievan authorities have withdrawn banking and other economic functionality from the Donbas region they describe as the ATO they can not collect taxes or benefit from any revenues from the region.
Nice twist on the timeline, there... The 'separatists' seized govt buildings and extorted cash from people who were not supportive of their cause. They sought to be separate from Kiev and to whom should central govt 'trust' payment while parts of the country are under military occupation.
The state of Ukraine sees little or no benefit from economic activity in the region and therefore such activity can not legitimately be included in the national figures. The LPR/DPR are raising taxes on incomes and businesses, that money is not remitted to Kiev.
1/ What are 'dnr/lr' other than representatives of 'criminal activists - who should be arrested' - words of the former Kremlin appointee -Consular General - in Crimea...[2011] That many are Russian and deny being active members of Kremlin institutions is another 'stat' that you might question..
2/ During a time of war .. economic 'data' is more flawed than ever
If the uneducated moby can suggest a fact based rationale to support a contrary point of view then why not share it with us? Personally I am always happy to learn. :)
I think I just 'shared' it and wonder when you'll ever answer us why the OSCE still can't monitor Ukraine's borders... sixth time that you've needed to be reminded ...
I know the truthful answer negates much of the nonsense you post concerning insurrection in Donbass - but do 'try' ...
If, as is likely, you can not, then why waste your time and everyone else's by going on about stuff that you know nothing about - or is boredom now back in your life to such a degree that you once again seek to waste everybody else's time in order to assuage your deathly ennui?
:chuckle:
Once again, you may confuse me, for the guy you see in the mirror when you shave..
I'd be lying to say I'm totally satisfied with life.. but things sure are looking up.
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The video gives an look at life in Mariupol from the Ukrainian side.
http://m.france24.com/en/20150605-reporters-ukraine-mariupol-black-sea-russia-separatists
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Ukraine Leader Says $3 Billion Russia ‘Bribe’ Requires Talks
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-15/there-s-no-winner-in-eastern-ukraine-conflict-president-says
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will this be the first of other such protests?
good article on how many feel within the conflict zones
SX
Residents in Russian-occupied Donetsk demand end to war
In possibly the first large protest against Russia's war in a separatist-controlled city, some 500 residents in Donetsk staged a rally and blocked the main Artema Street.
A local resident identified as Yevgeny said on YouTube, referring to the Kremlin-backed separatists who occupy Donetsk: “They don’t care about us at all. Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
He said residents are now suffering the worst of all worlds -- a low-intensity war with constant anxiety as residents wait for the next round of deadly random shelling. “And they call it a ceasefire. Hey guys, how can you call it
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/residents-in-russian-occupied-donetsk-demand-end-to-war-391179.html
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will this be the first of other such protests?
good article on how many feel within the conflict zones
SX
Residents in Russian-occupied Donetsk demand end to war
In possibly the first large protest against Russia's war in a separatist-controlled city, some 500 residents in Donetsk staged a rally and blocked the main Artema Street.
A local resident identified as Yevgeny said on YouTube, referring to the Kremlin-backed separatists who occupy Donetsk: “They don’t care about us at all. Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
He said residents are now suffering the worst of all worlds -- a low-intensity war with constant anxiety as residents wait for the next round of deadly random shelling. “And they call it a ceasefire. Hey guys, how can you call it
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/residents-in-russian-occupied-donetsk-demand-end-to-war-391179.html
Igor Girkin the former FSB Colonel who played a major role in taking over Crimea and who played the major role in the initial stages of taking over Donetsk and Lugansk has stated that the guys in power there are mostly a bunch of criminals.
Clearly Putin may feel its a benefit to have a "frozen" conflict as he tries to decide if he should press on with more conquest of Ukrainian territory but obviously the residents there have suffered terribly.
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Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
Bunch of propaganda. This one sentence says it all. You need only 1 party to start/continue a war and Kiev is not interested in stopping it.
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Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
Bunch of propaganda. This one sentence says it all. You need only 1 party to start/continue a war and Kiev is not interested in stopping it.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
totally laughable ,
if russia was interested in stopping it they would close the border and make it a true civil war, !!
stop the flow of weapons etc crossing into ukraine from the russian side
so question is why dont they ??if it is as they claim it to be ??
SX
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Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
Bunch of propaganda. This one sentence says it all. You need only 1 party to start/continue a war and Kiev is not interested in stopping it.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
totally laughable ,
if russia was interested in stopping it they would close the border and make it a true civil war, !!
stop the flow of weapons etc crossing into ukraine from the russian side
so question is why dont they ??if it is as they claim it to be ??
SX
Sorry Mark but the Southern Cross is correct in his assessment.
Look at things from a different standpoint. Belgium decides that it really wants the Province of Limburg after all the Limbo’s are closer to Belgium than The Netherlands. They use a bunch of military, unemployed and disaffected from say Greece to obtain there goals by starting a so-called proxy war. Supplying there mercenaries from Luik and the surrounding area. Where would your indignation be aimed at?
NB: Since Belgium is only successful in making chocolates BonBon’s, arguing about which language to use, waffles, pedophiles and beer, I am not too worried about the above scenario actually happening.
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Sorry Mark but the Southern Cross is correct in his assessment.
Read the quote again and think for a second what it says:
It takes only 1 party to start a war.
If Kiev decides to invade poland, there is absolutely little Poland can do to stop them, other than to destroy kiev's military capability.
The same goes for the seperatists. If kiev wants to continue this war, there is nothing the seperatists can do to stop them, as they do not have enough military to obliterate kiev.
SX seems happy to have the seperatists themselves loose the war (by putin stopping its support) but thats also not going to happen. There is too much military material already present to prolong this war a long time.
The Netherlands surrendered after only 4 days in WW-II, did that stop the war for Netherlands? No, it continued 5 more horrific years.
Mark.
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Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
Bunch of propaganda. This one sentence says it all. You need only 1 party to start/continue a war and Kiev is not interested in stopping it.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
totally laughable ,
if russia was interested in stopping it they would close the border and make it a true civil war, !!
stop the flow of weapons etc crossing into ukraine from the russian side
so question is why dont they ??if it is as they claim it to be ??
SX
How about stopping the flow of weapons to both sides?
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will this be the first of other such protests?
good article on how many feel within the conflict zones
SX
Residents in Russian-occupied Donetsk demand end to war
In possibly the first large protest against Russia's war in a separatist-controlled city, some 500 residents in Donetsk staged a rally and blocked the main Artema Street.
A local resident identified as Yevgeny said on YouTube, referring to the Kremlin-backed separatists who occupy Donetsk: “They don’t care about us at all. Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
He said residents are now suffering the worst of all worlds -- a low-intensity war with constant anxiety as residents wait for the next round of deadly random shelling. “And they call it a ceasefire. Hey guys, how can you call it
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/residents-in-russian-occupied-donetsk-demand-end-to-war-391179.html
Here's the same event, from the separatist point of view. :chuckle:
A rally in Donetsk
on: June 15, 2015June, 15, Donetsk, DPRDesperate protesters in the center of Donetsk demand to protect them from Ukrainian Army and start an offensive at Ukrainian positions. A sporadic rally is taking place in Donetsk at the building of the Regional Administration. Inhabitants of Oktyabrskiy settlement are taking part in the manifestation.Witnesses report that the dwellers of the settlement subjected to regular shelling by Ukrainian military have blocked Artem Street.“There are no leaders and no single demand at the rally. Some people demand driving of Ukrainians away from the residential areas, others demand the offensive along the entire front line”, — commented a reporter from the scene. Several passers-by addressed the women blocking the traffic: “Let the cars pass”. The answer is:“And you provide us with residences away from the shelled areas first!”. About 200 people participate in the rally. They are being asked “to adhere to the Minsk format” from the police car with the help of a loudspeaker. Neither the protesters, nor the DPR officials have a distinct stand.As far as Oktyabrskiy settlement is concerned: only in the last 24 hours 10 civilians there were wounded, at least two died in a week. Oktyabrskiy is situated in Kuybyshevskiy district of Donetsk. It is subjected to regular shelling on the part of Ukrainian heavy artillery.At 13:30 PM Aleksandr Zakharchenko addressed the rally.Updates will follow
http://novorossia.today/a-rally-in-donetsk/
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Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
Bunch of propaganda. This one sentence says it all. You need only 1 party to start/continue a war and Kiev is not interested in stopping it.
Kiev just want's more money and lots more VODKA as usual.
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Nothing is being done to stop the war. The two sides have to come to terms. If the other part doesn’t want peace, then it has to be forced to.”
Bunch of propaganda. This one sentence says it all. You need only 1 party to start/continue a war and Kiev is not interested in stopping it.
Are there Russian soldiers being sent to fight in Ukraine?
https://news.vice.com/article/russia-denies-that-its-soldiers-are-in-ukraine-but-we-tracked-one-there-using-his-selfies
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Demonstration in Kiev.
"The US go home! Get our of Ukraine! Take all your soldiers and get out! Ukraine is for Ukrainians, not for Americans? Do you need out land? You have no respect for us!"
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Demonstration in Kiev.
"The US go home! Get our of Ukraine! Take all your soldiers and get out! Ukraine is for Ukrainians, not for Americans? Do you need out land? You have no respect for us!"
Yea it looks like there are ten of them while everyone else looks at them like they are crazy. Just a lot of cameras making the by standers in the background that seem to be in line for something look like they are part of the protest. Other than that one girl on the speaker phone the other nine protesters do not seem very interested in any of this. She is probably work for the Russian news outlet that posted this and it is part of her job to make this video so Russians think there is over whelming protest in Ukraine against America. Just another sample of fake Russian based news to misslead the Russian people.
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Demonstration in Kiev.
"The US go home! Get our of Ukraine! Take all your soldiers and get out! Ukraine is for Ukrainians, not for Americans? Do you need out land? You have no respect for us!"
Yea it looks like there are ten of them while everyone else looks at them like they are crazy. Just a lot of cameras making the by standers in the background that seem to be in line for something look like they are part of the protest. Other than that one girl on the speaker phone the other nine protesters do not seem very interested in any of this. She is probably work for the Russian news outlet that posted this and it is part of her job to make this video so Russians think there is over whelming protest in Ukraine against America. Just another sample of fake Russian based news to misslead the Russian people.
I guess its the same as the fake stories used to convince the US public ( And the rest of the world) that Iraq had piles of WMD ?
Those fake stores were used to as a reason to invade the country causing thousands of deaths to innocent people ??
Correct or am I wrong there?
Oh shit!! Sorry they don't do that sort of stuff in the US do they :Zzzzsleep:
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My gosh you have gotten desperate already. :Zzzzsleep:
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Demonstration in Kiev.
"The US go home! Get our of Ukraine! Take all your soldiers and get out! Ukraine is for Ukrainians, not for Americans? Do you need out land? You have no respect for us!"
Sorry Stevvie look at the plates - it seems only one is from Kiev region (oblast)
I wonder though is the woman with the microphone Lord Tiberius's wife?
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Demonstration in Kiev.
"The US go home! Get our of Ukraine! Take all your soldiers and get out! Ukraine is for Ukrainians, not for Americans? Do you need out land? You have no respect for us!"
Sorry Stevvie look at the plates - it seems only one is from Kiev region (oblast)
I wonder though is the woman with the microphone Lord Tiberius's wife?
The American Embassy in Kiev?
As for the women with the microphone , just by looking at her I would guess she the very domineering type with no sense of humour :laugh: I have met a few like! Not the sort you want to be married to.
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Demonstration in Kiev.
"The US go home! Get our of Ukraine! Take all your soldiers and get out! Ukraine is for Ukrainians, not for Americans? Do you need out land? You have no respect for us!"
Sorry Stevvie look at the plates - it seems only one is from Kiev region (oblast)
I wonder though is the woman with the microphone Lord Tiberius's wife?
The American Embassy in Kiev?
As for the women with the microphone , just by looking at her I would guess she the very domineering type with no sense of humour :laugh: I have met a few like! Not the sort you want to be married to.
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The same goes for the seperatists. If kiev wants to continue this war, there is nothing the seperatists can do to stop them, as they do not have enough military to obliterate kiev.
.......
As this is a war by proxy - your analysis is rendered moribund.
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The same goes for the seperatists. If kiev wants to continue this war, there is nothing the seperatists can do to stop them, as they do not have enough military to obliterate kiev.
.......
As this is a war by proxy - your analysis is rendered moribund.
It started as a war by proxy, I doubt Moscow has control over the seperatists now, they do not need much more arms from them.
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Ukraine’s Right Sector rejects Minsk deal, calls for renewed offensive in E. Ukraine
http://rt.com/news/268723-ukraine-right-sector-war/
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Ukraine’s Right Sector rejects Minsk deal, calls for renewed offensive in E. Ukraine
http://rt.com/news/268723-ukraine-right-sector-war/
"The Right Sector movement which was formed as a coalition of nationalist and neo-Nazi paramilitary organizations during the Maidan protests in Kiev at the end of 2013, decided to become a political party in March 2014. At the same time, it nominated its ultranationalist leader and a member of the Ukrainian parliament (Verkhovnaya Rada) Dmitry Yarosh for the presidency."
I bet he will get about the same number of votes as Donald Trump will get in the US. I believe "The Donald" polls standing show him at 1 per cent. I do not think very many Ukrainians want to send their young men to fight the Russians and friends in eastern Ukraine in a new offensive. Also note this party does not have anything to do with the US nor does it agree with US position or policy for the Ukraine. Just RT news trying to convince Russians the need to support the Offensives moves of the DPR and LPR as they keep trying to add territory and misery to a ever larger group of Russian speakers in Ukraine.
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Ukraine's former President Viktor Yanukovych has said he accepts some responsibility for the killings that led to his overthrow in February 2014.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33224138
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Texan77, in fact members of Right Sector were being trained in Kiev and Poland well before Maidan. At the time there were not many members of RS.
You are right to think that Right Sector would not be likely to win a fair election but they have been trained to be the wedge, the tipping point. That is how they have attained such power in the current RADA, you might want to do some reading about just who are RS rada members and ministers - whilst at it you'd need to be looking at the 'independent' members who stood without party affiliation, this is a peculiarity of the Ukrainian electoral system.
On a slightly broader note, it is well known to those who are interested in such things, that the proportion of the population whose active support and agitation required to effect a non-democratic change is something under 10%. There is little doubt that such a proportion of the population could be mustered under the various right wing and nationalistic banners. Even with less people the degree of upheaval within society is huge and would force a change in direction from society and government. This is one reason that we know that the 'Maidan' event was not a democratic representation of the will of the people.
However, this is not about winning elections. This is about having people in place for the next coup. Poroshenko is aware of this and it is why he has appealed to the Ukrainian court of human rights to have Yanukovych's ejection recorded as having been unconstitutional. By doing so he is seeking to ensure that other people Right Sector almost certainly allied with other groups can not so easily do to him that which was done to Yanukovych. It is, of course, a recognition of the truth that there was a coup and will make this a matter of legal record rather than simply being an obvious reality.
Don't forget that Poroshenko, well before his elevation to president made clear his understanding that there had been a coup so this is no kind of a policy u-turn for him and should therefore raise no criticism of him for his having taken this measure. It is absolutely necessary for the future well being of Ukraine.
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Please quote the sources of your revelations re 'RS'
Parties of the extreme right never polled more than just over 2 percent and at one time they held 20 percent of the cabinet seats.
You...indeed ..might like to do some reading.
What might have been an extreme nationalist in Feb 14 was a VERY small and unsavoury part of the 'popular' removal of Yanu'..
Popular in that even his own political party ejected him...
You are twisting Poroshenko' s words...re the legality of Yanu's removal.
I am not near mains power so don't have the luxury of a large screen to quote him or prove you need to go there ...rather than relying on your sources.
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
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Please quote the sources of your revelations re 'RS'
Parties of the extreme right never polled more than just over 2 percent and at one time they held 20 percent of the cabinet seats.
You...indeed ..might like to do some reading.
What might have been an extreme nationalist in Feb 14 was a VERY small and unsavoury part of the 'popular' removal of Yanu'..
Popular in that even his own political party ejected him...
You are twisting Poroshenko' s words...re the legality of Yanu's removal.
I am not near mains power so don't have the luxury of a large screen to quote him or prove you need to go there ...rather than relying on your sources.
Look up WEDGE and then look up FULCRUM, dummy.
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You are twisting Poroshenko' s words...re the legality of Yanu's removal.
Yanu's removal wasn't legal, never was, never will be.
Mark.
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You are twisting Poroshenko' s words...re the legality of Yanu's removal.
Yanu's removal wasn't legal, never was, never will be.
Mark.
Yes but either way good riddance. Perhaps if Russia had chosen a slightly more honorable and honest stooge none of this would have devolved to what it did. :)
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You are twisting Poroshenko' s words...re the legality of Yanu's removal.
Yanu's removal wasn't legal, never was, never will be.
Mark.
Yes but either way good riddance. Perhaps if Russia had chosen a slightly more honorable and honest stooge none of this would have devolved to what it did. :)
Right, you removed a thief and replaced him with a murderer. good going.
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You are twisting Poroshenko' s words...re the legality of Yanu's removal.
Yanu's removal wasn't legal, never was, never will be.
Mark.
Yes but either way good riddance. Perhaps if Russia had chosen a slightly more honorable and honest stooge none of this would have devolved to what it did. :)
Right, you removed a thief and replaced him with a murderer. good going.
Who is you? The only murderers were Yanukovich's henchmen in the SBU who murdered protestors on Maidan. That's on Russia buddy, and that's why they fled. Get your facts straight. And get out of Ukraine. There won't be peace until you (meaning Russia) do. Better get used to the sanctions getting worse if Putin tries to grab more Ukrainian territory.
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Who is you? The only murderers were Yanukovich's henchmen in the SBU who murdered protestors on Maidan. That's on Russia buddy, and that's why they fled. Get your facts straight. And get out of Ukraine. There won't be peace until you (meaning Russia) do. Better get used to the sanctions getting worse if Putin tries to grab more Ukrainian territory.
I don't see Russia grabbing more territory, I don't even see them grabbing the seperatists-controlled parts. In fact Putin send them straight back home right after they asked.
Many ukrainian citizens die daily, because of the actions of Poroshenko, but they don't count do they, because its the army thats doing the killing.
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Who is you? The only murderers were Yanukovich's henchmen in the SBU who murdered protestors on Maidan. That's on Russia buddy, and that's why they fled. Get your facts straight. And get out of Ukraine. There won't be peace until you (meaning Russia) do. Better get used to the sanctions getting worse if Putin tries to grab more Ukrainian territory.
I don't see Russia grabbing more territory, I don't even see them grabbing the seperatists-controlled parts. In fact Putin send them straight back home right after they asked.
Many ukrainian citizens die daily, because of the actions of Poroshenko, but they don't count do they, because its the army thats doing the killing.
The only reason Ukrainian citizens have been dying, going back to Maidan and continuing with the actions of Putin and his military machine in Eastern Ukraine, is because Putin is an egomaniac who wants to tell Ukrainians how to run their country.
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The only reason Ukrainian citizens have been dying, going back to Maidan and continuing with the actions of Putin and his military machine in Eastern Ukraine, is because Putin is an egomaniac who wants to tell Ukrainians how to run their country.
Riiiight.
And the West of course has nothing todo with it.
It might do you some good to forget the western propaganda and look into the facts of this war.
Fact: The seperatists are abiding by minsk
Fact: Kiev is not implementing any of the important parts to make the cease-fire lasting.
Fact: Poroshenko sent the army against its own people from day-1 of his presedency.
Fact: Yanukovich allowed months of protests before sending in any law-enforcements to try to break it up.
Fact: ...
Shall I go on, or do you see to start the light yet.
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The only reason Ukrainian citizens have been dying, going back to Maidan and continuing with the actions of Putin and his military machine in Eastern Ukraine, is because Putin is an egomaniac who wants to tell Ukrainians how to run their country.
Riiiight.
And the West of course has nothing todo with it.
It might do you some good to forget the western propaganda and look into the facts of this war.
Fact: The seperatists are abiding by minsk
Fact: Kiev is not implementing any of the important parts to make the cease-fire lasting.
Fact: Poroshenko sent the army against its own people from day-1 of his presedency.
Fact: Yanukovich allowed months of protests before sending in any law-enforcements to try to break it up.
Fact: ...
Shall I go on, or do you see to start the light yet.
Putin and Right Sector/Svodba deserve each other. Both a$$holes who deserve the misery of each others company. Yes, I agree average Ukrainians have been suffering and will likely continue to suffer. Putin is no angel. He can tell the Pope all the lies he wants to, but he will not be going to heaven.
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Anyway you look at it, Ukraine is screwed. :coffeeread:
UKRAINE CRISIS
The IMF Bows to Putin in Ukraine
44 JUN 23, 2015 12:34 PM EDTBy Leonid Bershidsky
a ANotions of justice and morality rarely apply to debt restructuring negotiations. Most parties want to get the best result that everyone can accept and move on. Nonetheless, what's going on with Ukraine's debt is disturbing.The country's protracted battle with Russia, mismanagement under previous president Viktor Yanukovych, and a painful 2014 currency devaluation have wreaked havoc on its finances, impairing its ability to pay its sovereign debt. The government is thus insisting that private investors such as Franklin Templeton accept a "last chance" deal involving a 40 percent haircut and thepossibility of receiving new bonds if the economy performs better than expected. The government is threatening a moratorium on debt repayments if the creditors don't agree.At the same time, the government is acting very differently toward another major creditor: Russia, the country that helped get it into this mess. On Monday, Ukraine announced that it had paid a $75 million coupon on a $3 billion bond it issued to Russia last December. The debt, structured as a Eurobond registered in Ireland, is legally the same as that held by the private creditors -- a feature intended to protect Russia, because failure to pay would trigger early repayment on all the rest of Ukraine's Eurobonds. But last year, after Ukraine's "revolution of dignity," Russia sought to modify the bond's status: Finance Minister Anton Siluanov declared it the official debt of one country to another to avoid being part of any restructuring negotiations.Now, Russia appears to have found an unlikely ally in the International Monetary Fund. Bloomberg reportstoday that fund staffers have decided to treat the Russian bond as official rather than private debt. At the same time, the IMF has been helping Ukraine put pressure on the private investors: A top fund official has suggested that Ukraine can stop paying them and still be eligible to receive IMF loans. IMF rules allow it to lend to countries that are in arrears to private creditors but not necessarily to official ones.By taking Russia's side, the IMF is helping to destroy the private creditors' argument, backed by Moody's on Monday, that Ukraine doesn't need a reduction in the principal value of its debt. They say rescheduling payments would be enough to save $15.3 billion over four years -- the goal set out in the IMF's bailout program. The math doesn't work, however, if Ukraine has to pay $3 billion to Russia this year.The IMF appears to be taking a pragmatic stance. Russia, after all, has shown that it has unconventional means of enforcing repayment. Its armed proxies control a sizable part of Ukraine's industrial east. If needed, regular Russian troops can inflict lasting damage on what remains of the country's export potential by shelling a few steel mills. If the IMF said it would keep lending to Kiev after a default on the Russian bond, there could be unpredictable consequences.From the point of view of commonsense justice, though, Ukraine shouldn't owe Russia anything. It should be the other way around. The state-owned Ukrainian assets Russia expropriated in Crimea are alone worthmuch more than $3 billion. Even if Ukraine doesn't recognize the annexation of Crimea, Russia will be using the land, buildings, ships, equipment and natural resources for years without paying anything. The IMF, however, seems poised to push Ukraine to pay the Russian bond in full. This is the same as telling the rest of the world that might makes right. You there at Templeton: Got tanks? No? All right, we want you to accept a principal reduction. The bear gets fed, while the herbivores get fleeced
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-23/the-imf-bows-to-putin-in-ukraine
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Fact: The seperatists are abiding by minsk NO!!! they are attacking.
Fact: Kiev is not implementing any of the important parts to make the cease-fire lasting.
Fact: Poroshenko sent the army against its own people from day-1 of his presedency. No He sent troops against separatist. Try being a separatist in Russia and see what happens.
Fact: Yanukovich allowed months of protests before sending in any law-enforcements to try to break it up.
IF Russia had not interfered he would joined the EU and none of this would of happened.
Try coming up with one fact that means something.
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Fact: The seperatists are abiding by minsk NO!!! they are attacking.
Fact: Kiev is not implementing any of the important parts to make the cease-fire lasting.
Fact: Poroshenko sent the army against its own people from day-1 of his presedency. No He sent troops against separatist. Try being a separatist in Russia and see what happens.
That's it in a nutshell. Russia feels they can meddle in Ukrainian affairs because Putin says that Ukraine is not a real country.
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Putin says that Ukraine is not a real country.
Not true and not in context. Find the original quote (not a western media 'interpretation').
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It appears that Putin had thought of invading Ukraine 2008.
http://www.chernobylee.com/blog/2008/04/putin-ukraine-is-not-even-a-na.php
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Fact: The seperatists are abiding by minsk NO!!! they are attacking.
Fact: Kiev is not implementing any of the important parts to make the cease-fire lasting.
Fact: Poroshenko sent the army against its own people from day-1 of his presedency. No He sent troops against separatist. Try being a separatist in Russia and see what happens.
Fact: Yanukovich allowed months of protests before sending in any law-enforcements to try to break it up.
IF Russia had not interfered he would joined the EU and none of this would of happened.
Try coming up with one fact that means something.
Ukraine wouldn't have and will not join the EU.
Would never happen, I don't know why people think this.
.
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Fact: The seperatists are abiding by minsk NO!!! they are attacking.
To rescue civilian miners under attack from the Ukrainian army... right, big nono there.....
Fact: Kiev is not implementing any of the important parts to make the cease-fire lasting.
No comment? Thats telling.
Fact: Poroshenko sent the army against its own people from day-1 of his presedency. No He sent troops against separatist. Try being a separatist in Russia and see what happens.
On day 1, there were no seperatists, just a bunch of rag-tag dissidents and civilians. Good going Poroshenko, you organised them into a professional force by your actions.
Fact: Yanukovich allowed months of protests before sending in any law-enforcements to try to break it up.
IF Russia had not interfered he would joined the EU and none of this would of happened.
Better dealing with the criminal you know, he must've thought.
And he wasn't wrong. Ukraine would have been destroyed had they continued with their EU-plan.
Of course, the EU could not take it , so they destroyed it anyway, by interfering in Maidan, prolonging the war with fake-sanctions that do not bite and finally by sending financial aid to an illegitimate government because they 'think' Russia is aiding the other side.
Try coming up with one fact that means something.
You didn't dispute 2 of them, and they are extremely meaningful. Because it shows Poroshenko wants to continue this war.
I have more facts anyway:
FACT : Implementing the trade-agreement with the EU would starve the ukrainians and destroy their economy. Do your own research as to why.
FACT: Russia has no official dealings with the seperatists other than the Minsk agreement. There are a lot of voulenteers (officially anyway).
FACT: Ukraine still has no legitimate government, they weren't elected legally because 3 major oblasts weren't allowed to vote.
FACT: Poroshenko is doing everything in his power to disrupt the economy of Ukraine.
Lots more, please use the brains and not your propaganda-induced mind.
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Ukraine wouldn't have and will not join the EU.
I have yet to meet a Ukraine citizen who desires closer 'ties' with Russia. The reality The Kremlin has destroyed any chance of closer relations between the two countries.
Yes Ukraine was and remains a long distance from becoming part of Europe - BUT that is the wish of the majority of the population.
I would suggest get used to this reality.
Certainly Ukraine will struggle (for many years) but the population is tough.
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Ukraine wouldn't have and will not join the EU.
I have yet to meet a Ukraine citizen who desires closer 'ties' with Russia. The reality The Kremlin has destroyed any chance of closer relations between the two countries.
Yes Ukraine was and remains a long distance from becoming part of Europe - BUT that is the wish of the majority of the population.
I would suggest get used to this reality.
Certainly Ukraine will struggle (for many years) but the population is tough.
Ukraine was on a good path when they abolished Visa for Europeans & the world soccer stuff. Thats how I got to meet my (now) wife.
Unfortunately, politics happen and the path gets diverted. Same in all democracies, upper management changes every X years.
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FACT : Implementing the trade-agreement with the EU would starve the ukrainians and destroy their economy. Do your own research as to why.
FACT: Russia has no official dealings with the seperatists other than the Minsk agreement. There are a lot of voulenteers (officially anyway).
FACT: Ukraine still has no legitimate government, they weren't elected legally because 3 major oblasts weren't allowed to vote.
FACT: Poroshenko is doing everything in his power to disrupt the economy of Ukraine.
Lots more, please use the brains and not your propaganda-induced mind.
Mark if you are in the local coffee shop it is time to depart.
For the good order the EU knew and knows that implementing an accord would be painful, they made assurance to help with the transition as happened in other central European countries.
Moscow ~ The Kremlin is in daily contact with the leaders of the those leading an insurgancy in Ukraine lands.
Two oblasts (three if you count the Krim) were prevented from reporting and conducting voting by the local officials which had been upsurped by Kremlin puppets.
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Ukraine was on a good path when they abolished Visa for Europeans & the world soccer stuff. Thats how I got to meet my (now) wife.
Unfortunately, politics happen and the path gets diverted. Same in all democracies, upper management changes every X years.
So far as I know there is no change of visa's for Ukraine citizens to Europe or America.
Yes politics are often ugly and usually the citizens are the losers.
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AvHdB, there was NO agreement or suggestion that there would be aid to Ukraine, indeed that was ruled out. When the true costs were understood it was clear that the agreement could not proceed in the form proposed by the EU.
This was why the agreement was not initially signed after the coup, delayed as long as possible.
Now the economic section of the agreement has been put in abeyance and guess why?
When countries joined the EU they received, as part of the accession agreement, access to EU funds to enable compliance with EU standards and although that money was significantly reduced at the time of the most recent accessions there was a lot of money floating around for that purpose - I was writing proposals for some of that money back then. ;)
Here's a thing, a life point, if you like. ;)
If it ain't in the contract it ain't in existence.
The EU could have helped out back in November 2013 but chose to not do so. No signs of the necessary help you imagine would have been available.
I suggest that you read the EU Association Agreement before posting about fantasies. ;)
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I suggest that you read the EU Association Agreement before posting about fantasies. ;)
Regarding (your) fantasies, lets not go there.
Different capitals made guarantees and promises both inside the EU and beyond.
If the agreement was signed back than would Kiev (Ukraine) be better of today, I am not sure but I doubt there would be thousands of civilian casualties.
I still believe Ukraine will become a partner in the free Europe and will (unfortunately) further isolate Russia.
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For the good order the EU knew and knows that implementing an accord would be painful, they made assurance to help with the transition as happened in other central European countries.
You obviously didn't pay attention to the deal as it was happening. The produce of Ukrainian farmers was so far below health/hygiene spec of the EU they would never allow countries to buy it. Russia already said they would stop buying , so that would mean a major problem for one of the biggest sectors (argicultural) in Ukraine. The same goes for milk, meat and others.
No amount of money would have solved that in the short term, because it also needs a cultural change. Meanwhile farmers would go bankrupt and that means nothing would grow on the fields, meaning another holodomor in a worst-case scenario, Yanukovich even explained all that to the maidan-movement, but somehow they didn't want to believe it.
Moscow ~ The Kremlin is in daily contact with the leaders of the those leading an insurgancy in Ukraine lands.
So? Our Mark Rutte is also in daily contact with many other leaders, does that mean he controls them?
Two oblasts (three if you count the Krim) were prevented from reporting and conducting voting by the local officials which had been upsurped by Kremlin puppets.
No, they were literally denied by kiev, they didnt even attempt to get them to vote.
They could even have opted to push paper voting ballots out of airplanes to at least make an effort for show... but no, they simply made 0 effort.
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You obviously didn't pay attention to the deal as it was happening. The produce of Ukrainian farmers was so far below health/hygiene spec of the EU they would never allow countries to buy it. Russia already said they would stop buying , so that would mean a major problem for one of the biggest sectors (argicultural) in Ukraine. The same goes for milk, meat and others.
Ukraine remains a leading exporter of cereal (grain).
Sorry your ignorance is amazing in fact while industry in the east has been lost due the ongoing conflict Ukraine has protected the land farm/owners since independence.
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Think Ukraine's economy is about to be hit hard again.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-24/putin-strikes-back-cuts-ukraine-gas-discount
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It is good, AvHdB, that you have been absorbing what I have written about Ukraine agriculture.
But there's some bits missing.
Grain output fell in 2014 from 2013, in part due to lack of fertiliser, that had been expected as far back as May last year due to the economic conditions already prevailing.
Forecasts from those likely to be optimistic suggest output, at best, no higher than last year for grains. Given that a significant source of fertilizer was Russia and that domestic fertilizer production relies upon cheap gas from Russia it is certain that fertilizer has been under used from the spring 2014 growing season onward; it was already an issue from winter 2013/14.
Oddly it is harder to find decent info about production, there's lots of forecasts, all optimistic but hedging their optimism - not a good sign in these matters.
Ukraine is an exporter of grain. Since winter 2013/14 the word 'leading' almost certainly is a misleading choice of words.
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I still believe Ukraine will become a partner in the free Europe and will (unfortunately) further isolate Russia.
Ukraine is a failed state, how can it 'isolate' Russia?
But where is this 'the free Europe' you speak of?
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I still believe Ukraine will become a partner in the free Europe and will (unfortunately) further isolate Russia.
Ukraine is a failed state, how can it 'isolate' Russia?
But where is this 'the free Europe' you speak of?
Apparently you live in it. Do you really think that you could steal state broadcasting material that most people pay for (such as the dreaded BBC) if you lived in Moscow?
Warts and all there are plenty of things to still like about the West. Many Russians agree as they took their money out of Russia and much to the frustration of Putin it isn't heading back.
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I still believe Ukraine will become a partner in the free Europe and will (unfortunately) further isolate Russia.
Ukraine is a failed state, how can it 'isolate' Russia?
But where is this 'the free Europe' you speak of?
Apparently you live in it. Do you really think that you could steal state broadcasting material that most people pay for (such as the dreaded BBC) if you lived in Moscow?
Free countries do not have ownership taxes on domestic appliances or insist on straight bananas and tell you that water doesn't fix dehydration (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/586742/European-Union-barmy-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU). Most do not have the audacity to try to charge for state propaganda either.
The point is moot anyway as Ukraine hasn't been invited and is unlikely to be.
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You obviously didn't pay attention to the deal as it was happening. The produce of Ukrainian farmers was so far below health/hygiene spec of the EU they would never allow countries to buy it. Russia already said they would stop buying , so that would mean a major problem for one of the biggest sectors (argicultural) in Ukraine. The same goes for milk, meat and others.
Ukraine remains a leading exporter of cereal (grain).
Sorry your ignorance is amazing in fact while industry in the east has been lost due the ongoing conflict Ukraine has protected the land farm/owners since independence.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/017/aq344e/aq344e.pdf
Take a good hard look at page 6 pie-charts and then tell me again how i am ignorant.
The total export of grain -> EU fell from 45% in the years before 2006 to a mere 20% after 2006 - 2010 period.
Gee I wonder why, as there was no war back then. :-\
I will quote the PDF for easy recognision for you:
Thirdly, the quality of grain also represents a serious problem in cereals export operations. In this context we may refer to the infestation of wheat with shield-backed bugs, exceeded limits of black dockage in grain lots, high content of broken grain, etc. Such problems bring about complications in forming and further selling commercial batches of wheat
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The whole 'isolate Russia' meme is a joke for anyone who knows anything.
it is kind of a touchstone, a key identifier of the know nothings and know littles who parrot the words given to them by their programmers.
Rather than provide links for you, and other know littles, here's a few questions for you - rhetorical because I know the answers, as does anyone who knows how the 'isolate Russia' meme is a badge of knowledge deficit.
With which country has Saudi Arabia been meeting in the past few days?
What is the world share of GDP of the members of the SCO?
What is the world share of population of the members of the SCO?
Which countries have committed to taking part in the Eurasian Silk Road project?
What proportion of world GDP do these countries have?
Which South American countries have recently signed trade agreements with Russia?
How many countries in the world have joined with the US and EU in sanctions against Russia?
What proportion of the world's population is represented by those countries?
Which isolated country has increased its exports in the past 12 months?
Which country is decreasing its competitiveness and share of world trade with each passing quarter?
Which country's GDP just decreased in Q1 2015?
AvHdB, the word 'isolation' probably does not mean what you think it does! :'(
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A few questions for you, then...one of them now asked 12 times...(Mr 'Honest')
1/ which nation outwardly agrees to Minsk2 but reckons the OSCE can't be asking the right ppl to monitor the RU UA border in areas controlled by 'rebels'?
2/ Which nation's media..including the Kremlin's fav publication pronounced the 'rebels' had downed another UA AN-26 transport plane..only to find it was MH17.... there followed silence....then four days later it was two UA-25's and now...when the evidence for it being a BUK piles up...it was 'a missile' not used by Russia...
3/ which countries economy was in the mire due to faĺling oil and gas prices and the leaders needed a 'distraction'
4/ which country has interest rates approx 20 times the Euro or Dollar and is seeking increasing unemployment?
5/ which country feels to restrict it's civil servants from travel?( like traffic cops are going to be extradited to the US !))
I could go on..but these are not the actions of leaders who are being 'open' with her neighbours..let alone her people.
Sure they are chosing new 'friends' to mix with, but these friends are most realistic about trading with the west.
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
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A few questions for you, then...one of them now asked 12 times...(Mr 'Honest')
Oh thats easy.
1/ which nation outwardly agrees to Minsk2 but reckons the OSCE can't be asking the right ppl to monitor the RU UA border in areas controlled by 'rebels'?
Ukraine
2/ Which nation's media..including the Kremlin's fav publication pronounced the 'rebels' had downed another UA AN-26 transport plane..only to find it was MH17.... there followed silence....then four days later it was two UA-25's and now...when the evidence for it being a BUK piles up...it was 'a missile' not used by Russia...
The man that did it is already 6" under the earth.. We will never find him or his corpse. The price of failure is very big indeed in the FSU.
3/ which countries economy was in the mire due to faĺling oil and gas prices and the leaders needed a 'distraction'
Ukraine
4/ which country has interest rates approx 20 times the Euro or Dollar and is seeking increasing unemployment?
Ukraine
5/ which country feels to restrict it's civil servants from travel?( like traffic cops are going to be extradited to the US !))
Dunno. At least its not Russia, as I met a russian in the supermarket in my hometown that worked for the gov't.
I could go on..but these are not the actions of leaders who are being 'open' with her neighbours..let alone her people.
I agree, Ukraines actions are appaling.
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Fibber !))
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
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Fibber !))
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
I don't fib. Not my style, the truth is what I care about, no matter what side it is.
Truth is, many women , children die daily because of Ukraine's failures. Thats the worst of it all.
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Fibber !))
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
I don't fib. Not my style, the truth is what I care about, no matter what side it is.
Truth is, many women , children die daily because of Ukraine's failures. Thats the worst of it all.
I am truly amazed that you really seem to believe this. Russian female nooky must have some very special side effects. :chuckle:
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I am truly amazed that you really seem to believe this. Russian female nooky must have some very special side effects. :chuckle:
Someday , when you will have a FSUW and thus access to daily life in Russia, you might dump the propaganda and see both sides of the story.
Keep on denying the truth in Crimea, it might serve some purpose but I can tell you from first hand personal experience that they wanted it & are very happy now. In July I will be there again, so might give you guys an update of daily life there.
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I am truly amazed that you really seem to believe this. Russian female nooky must have some very special side effects. :chuckle:
Someday , when you will have a FSUW and thus access to daily life in Russia, you might dump the propaganda and see both sides of the story.
^^ What Mark said.
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I am truly amazed that you really seem to believe this. Russian female nooky must have some very special side effects. :chuckle:
Someday , when you will have a FSUW and thus access to daily life in Russia, you might dump the propaganda and see both sides of the story.
Keep on denying the truth in Crimea, it might serve some purpose but I can tell you from first hand personal experience that they wanted it & are very happy now. In July I will be there again, so might give you guys an update of daily life there.
This would be most welcome. I hear and see bits of information about Crimea. I have a Ukrainian friend who went camping there recently and had no troubles. I was there about 5 years ago and I liked it.
I suspect if I ever have a FSU woman she will likely be from Ukraine. I am fearful of travelling to Russia. :-X
I do agree though that there are always two sides to every story. Hopefully in due time there will be peace again.
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In July I will be there again, so might give you guys an update of daily life there.
I'd love to read that. With pics please!
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In July I will be there again, so might give you guys an update of daily life there.
I'd love to read that. With pics please!
me too wants this!
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I am truly amazed that you really seem to believe this. Russian female nooky must have some very special side effects. :chuckle:
Someday , when you will have a FSUW and thus access to daily life in Russia, you might dump the propaganda and see both sides of the story.
.As for both sides..and my lady isn't Russian and I haven't been there more recently than you !?))
Markje..
What is going on in Donbass is the combination of a negative reaction to a pro western govt in Kiev ...confirmed by 2 votes....and stirring from the Kremlin followed by direct action which is 'denied' involving RU nationals in Ukraine.
The crime is that not so long ago I was in Donbass..used Donesk airport and witnessed many folk who were quite happy to shout for Ukraine and wave the flag...Now these same ppl are killing each other and even eth. RU people cannot agree if they want autonomy, independence or to be a part of the RF....
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
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I am truly amazed that you really seem to believe this. Russian female nooky must have some very special side effects. :chuckle:
Someday , when you will have a FSUW and thus access to daily life in Russia, you might dump the propaganda and see both sides of the story.
.As for both sides..and my lady isn't Russian and I haven't been there more recently than you !?))
Markje..
What is going on in Donbass is the combination of a negative reaction to a pro western govt in Kiev ...confirmed by 2 votes....and stirring from the Kremlin followed by direct action which is 'denied' involving RU nationals in Ukraine.
The crime is that not so long ago I was in Donbass..used Donesk airport and witnessed many folk who were quite happy to shout for Ukraine and wave the flag...Now these same ppl are killing each other and even eth. RU people cannot agree if they want autonomy, independence or to be a part of the RF....
sent from mobile..pls excuse the spooling mistooks
Where the hell did the donbass thing come from? I was talking almost exclusivly about Crimeas situation.
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The Russian government has decided to extend the gas discount for Ukraine, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Monday.MOSCOW, June 29 (Sputnik) — Medvedev said at a meeting with Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak and Gazprom head Alexey Miller:"We received a request from the Ukrainian side to extend the discount. This was quite expected for us in light of the difficult economic situation they have… It was decided to sign a government decree which for one quarter will establish a special procedure for calculating gas delivery fees for Ukraine."He noted the importance of trying to meet Ukraine halfway despite difficulties in Moscow's relations with Kiev."The final price for Ukraine for 1,000 cubic meters of gas in the third quarter will stand at about $247.17 with the discount. The discount will be around $40
http://sputniknews.com/business/20150629/1023974861.html
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And Russia are supposed to be the bad guys here?
How does that work?
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And Russia are supposed to be the bad guys here?
How does that work?
Don't confuse the lack of responses for confirmation of acceptance .. you are just being andrewfi ...
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And Russia are supposed to be the bad guys here?
How does that work?
Americans will be along soon to tell us Russia is the bad guy as they gave Ukraine a discount. :chuckle:
3... 2... 1...
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Ukraine rejects Russian deal and stops buying Russian gas.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-suspends-russian-gas-purchases-price-row-193612887.html
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Ukraine rejects Russian deal and stops buying Russian gas.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-suspends-russian-gas-purchases-price-row-193612887.html
Its gonna be a cold, cold winter.
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Ukraine rejects Russian deal and stops buying Russian gas.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-suspends-russian-gas-purchases-price-row-193612887.html
Its gonna be a cold, cold winter.
Ukraine is broke but I bet that there will be puffed out chests and strutting around like shabby peacocks telling the world that proud Ukrainians can not take Russian gas even if it were free. The Ukrainian people will be told that Ukrainian pride was insulted by the Russian demand to charge actual money for their gas.
In a few weeks time there will be billboard signs and tv commercials extolling the virtues of shared showers and magazine articles pointing out that people who are emotionally close to each other do not notice the odour of their companions.
Imagine the Ukraine version of Cosmo with a piece telling women that if she notices the smell of her men that she is not close enough to him and that she should reignite the flames of passion in him...
In North Korea a few years ago there was a state campaign telling people to eat two meals a day, presented as though that was an improvement from eating just one - a step forward. Ukraine will follow in those footsteps, except that the North Korean economy is a tad stronger than Ukraine's.
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I bet that there will be puffed out chests and strutting around like shabby peacocks telling the world that proud Ukrainians can not take Russian gas even if it were free. The Ukrainian people will be told that Ukrainian pride was insulted by the Russian demand to charge actual money for their gas.
Having once got it for free by stealing it, perhaps paying for it (even with other peoples money) goes against the grain.
But does "not buying Russian gas" actually mean buying (and probably not paying for) Russian gas funnelled through a third country?
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Manny, you may be right about buying from a 3rd party, but in that case Russia will have been paid in full . not their problem!
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You guys are so prejudice that I would not be surprised if you put on white sheets and burned some Ukrainian's house down. The Ukraine largest supplier of it gas is Norway.
http://www.customstoday.com.pk/norway-surpasses-russia-with-sales-of-natural-gas-around-29-2bcm/
The Ukraine has 12 BCM in storage and would 19 for the winter. This number maybe reduced because they plannig to cut off the DPR and LPR for not paying. As Manny pointed out they are a seperate country now and not very friendly to the Kiev government. Russia would be able to make a contract directly directly them and the pipes exist to supply them without going through Ukraine.
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Ukraine Can Defeat The Separatists
Share68 http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/07/01/ukraine-can-defeat-the-separatists/
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Ukraine Can Defeat The Separatists
Share68 http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/07/01/ukraine-can-defeat-the-separatists/
The author of that article is stunningly naive.
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Ukraine Can Defeat The Separatists
Share68 http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/07/01/ukraine-can-defeat-the-separatists/
The author of that article is stunningly naive.
Sounds more as a patriotically spirited essay written by a female author, than like a serious & well researched article written by a former military ... :duh:
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Ukraine Can Defeat The Separatists
Share68 http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/07/01/ukraine-can-defeat-the-separatists/
The author of that article is stunningly naive.
That is if you only believe what he wrote, and not what he said in between the lines. I would call it deliberate propaganda to get Russia to make their next move. Whether or not Ukrainians could stop a full-fledged Russian invasion remains to be seen. I doubt it, unless they've been supplied with far more lethal weapons than we are aware.
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That is if you only believe what he wrote, and not what he said in between the lines. I would call it deliberate propaganda to get Russia to make their next move. Whether or not Ukrainians could stop a full-fledged Russian invasion remains to be seen. I doubt it, unless they've been supplied with far more lethal weapons than we are aware.
Even if they have the weapons, the personell is starting to grow more war-fatigued every day. They do not wish to pickup weapons anymore to kill women and children.
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Ukraine Can Defeat The Separatists
Share68 http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/07/01/ukraine-can-defeat-the-separatists/
The author of that article is stunningly naive.
Not so much stunningly naive as uninformed.
The article is written as though all of the claims about Russian involvement are true. You, me and anyone who can understand even a little of what they read (or even watch) and whose memory is not goldfish-like knows that the premise upon which the article is written is false.
The article illustrates very well what happens when reporting is not done accurately. The untruths become part of the accepted truth and so conclusions are drawn and decisions made that are based upon perilously unsteady foundations.
One can only hope that the real decision makers in NATO and the US are better informed than this bloke.
The chances are that the story got published because it was seen as worthy click bait rather than having been seen as having any intrinsic value by the sub-editors on Forbes.
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You, me and anyone who can understand even a little of what they read (or even watch) and whose memory is not goldfish-like knows that the premise upon which the article is written is false.
:chuckle:
I can only assume you achieve some sort of 'financial benefit' from the drivel you post.
The Kremlin started off this mess and now aids a proxy war. 16 TIMES.. you have ducked why the Military observers aren't allowed to monitor.
The conclusion can only be - there is something to hide....
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You, me and anyone who can understand even a little of what they read (or even watch) and whose memory is not goldfish-like knows that the premise upon which the article is written is false.
:chuckle:
I can only assume you achieve some sort of 'financial benefit' from the drivel you post.
The Kremlin started off this mess and now aids a proxy war. 16 TIMES.. you have ducked why the Military observers aren't allowed to monitor.
The conclusion can only be - there is something to hide....
+1
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Moby, you may be important to you, you are not to me. If you want to know something then go find out. If you wish to hire a researcher then save up your pocket money and, when you have enough saved up, hire one.
Same goes for Tom Cat in this regard. There is plenty of information available, I have no obligation to act as your memory replacement. You want to know something go do the reading. It is obvious from your frenzied posting of links that you are not short of time. Why not learn from the links rather than clicking copy/paste. If you are uncertain of what happened in the recent past then you can use Internet search engines. Google has a filter for time so that you can even eliminate recent search returns.
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Moby, you may be important to you, you are not to me. If you want to know something then go find out. If you wish to hire a researcher then save up your pocket money and, when you have enough saved up, hire one.
Same goes for Tom Cat in this regard. There is plenty of information available, I have no obligation to act as your memory replacement. You want to know something go do the reading. It is obvious from your frenzied posting of links that you are not short of time. Why not learn from the links rather than clicking copy/paste. If you are uncertain of what happened in the recent past then you can use Internet search engines. Google has a filter for time so that you can even eliminate recent search returns.
:ROFL: Andrew finding it difficult to give an reasonable answer?
Maybe because you can't!
Plain and simple, Russia has sponsored the separatists from the beginning. :)
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What is not talked very much is there is the war and there is the peace that follows. It is very possible to win the war and lose the peace. Russia complains that the Ukraine is slow pay on many bills. I think Russia is going to find the DPR and LPR are worse than slow pay. For as long as one can see the DPR and LPR will be totally dependant on Russia. Each year they wll need a couple of billions dollars of gas, a few billions of weapons and other millirary support, then a few billion in economcy support. Just like the west will one day get tired of supporting Kiev, Russia will get tired of supporting these seperatist.
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For as long as one can see the DPR and LPR will be totally dependant on Russia. Each year they wll need a couple of billions dollars of gas, a few billions of weapons and other millirary support, then a few billion in economcy support.
That is the price that must be paid to stop the region becoming part of the American regime change and installed puppet government roadshow. It is what it is. In time, the wheels of industry there will turn again. Just as tourists will return to Crimea.
But I think there may be a final chapter to the war before the borders are drawn permanently.
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Who Are The Russian Generals That Ukraine Says Are Fighting In The Donbas?
http://www.rferl.mobi/a/27108296.html
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For as long as one can see the DPR and LPR will be totally dependant on Russia. Each year they wll need a couple of billions dollars of gas, a few billions of weapons and other millirary support, then a few billion in economcy support.
That is the price that must be paid to stop the region becoming part of the American regime change and installed puppet government roadshow. It is what it is. In time, the wheels of industry there will turn again. Just as tourists will return to Crimea.
But I think there may be a final chapter to the war before the borders are drawn permanently.
Yes. In 2017 when an American trained force of at least 20K troops with advanced weapons forces Russia out of E. Ukraine for good. And the only borders which will be re-drawn permanently will be on Russia's far east when China turns against them. :chuckle:
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For as long as one can see the DPR and LPR will be totally dependant on Russia. Each year they wll need a couple of billions dollars of gas, a few billions of weapons and other millirary support, then a few billion in economcy support.
That is the price that must be paid to stop the region becoming part of the American regime change and installed puppet government roadshow. It is what it is. In time, the wheels of industry there will turn again. Just as tourists will return to Crimea.
But I think there may be a final chapter to the war before the borders are drawn permanently.
Yes. In 2017 when an American trained force of at least 20K troops with advanced weapons forces Russia out of E. Ukraine for good. And the only borders which will be re-drawn permanently will be on Russia's far east when China turns against them. :chuckle:
Do you mean like Iraq and Afganistan? Both were trained and armed by the US.
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For as long as one can see the DPR and LPR will be totally dependant on Russia. Each year they wll need a couple of billions dollars of gas, a few billions of weapons and other millirary support, then a few billion in economcy support.
That is the price that must be paid to stop the region becoming part of the American regime change and installed puppet government roadshow. It is what it is. In time, the wheels of industry there will turn again. Just as tourists will return to Crimea.
But I think there may be a final chapter to the war before the borders are drawn permanently.
Yes. In 2017 when an American trained force of at least 20K troops with advanced weapons forces Russia out of E. Ukraine for good. And the only borders which will be re-drawn permanently will be on Russia's far east when China turns against them. :chuckle:
That may be the wet dream of crusty old Neocons like you, especially if you are hoping to hump a bit of destitute Ukrainian strange along the way, but it will remain your wet dream.
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For as long as one can see the DPR and LPR will be totally dependant on Russia. Each year they wll need a couple of billions dollars of gas, a few billions of weapons and other millirary support, then a few billion in economcy support.
That is the price that must be paid to stop the region becoming part of the American regime change and installed puppet government roadshow. It is what it is. In time, the wheels of industry there will turn again. Just as tourists will return to Crimea.
But I think there may be a final chapter to the war before the borders are drawn permanently.
Yes. In 2017 when an American trained force of at least 20K troops with advanced weapons forces Russia out of E. Ukraine for good. And the only borders which will be re-drawn permanently will be on Russia's far east when China turns against them. :chuckle:
That may be the wet dream of crusty old Neocons like you, especially if you are hoping to hump a bit of destitute Ukrainian strange along the way, but it will remain your wet dream.
So says the unhealthy guy who salivates at the thought of Russia stealing more territory from a neighbor. :GRRRR:
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It's ok Anteros, Manny also believes Crimea will gain tourists now that its under Russian control, and said sanctions on Russia will be gone. Yet they have not waivered, big surprise. (:)
I'm sure if there are stats on tourism to UA and RU, UA would be out front.
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my fav emoticon vvv
:GRRRR:
along with this one
:KISSSS:
sorry for the :offtopic:
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It's ok Anteros, Manny also believes Crimea will gain tourists now that its under Russian control. I'm sure if there are stats on tourism to UA and RU, UA would be out front.
Well, i usually agree with Manny and he is usually right, still gotta share a joke a Russian friend told me:
A guy says: Blyat, went to Crimea on vacation, it's crazy expensive, the service sucks...
His' friend replies: And you are surprised why exactly?! It's Russia, no? ;D
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my fav emoticon vvv
:GRRRR:
along with this one
:KISSSS:
sorry for the :offtopic:
You can go off topic with me any time you want to... :KISSSS:
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It's ok Anteros, Manny also believes Crimea will gain tourists now that its under Russian control, and said sanctions on Russia will be gone. Yet they have not waivered, big surprise. (:)
I'm sure if there are stats on tourism to UA and RU, UA would be out front.
If Manny's unhealthy "dream" of Russia gaining more Ukrainian territory comes true those sanctions will only get worse. In fact what is the level when the banking system turns against Russia? I cannot think of the name of it right now. :laugh:
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You can go off topic with me any time you want to... :KISSSS:
awww :loving: thank you :happygirl1:
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I'm sure if there are stats on tourism to UA and RU, UA would be out front.
With sex tourists probably.
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Here we go again same old story!! (:)
Maybe a new Maidan in the building
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33392991
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Ukraine President Says No Special Status for Donbass in Constitution
Ukraine | July 2, 2015, Thursday // 08:56| 1291 viewsUkrainian President Petro Poroshenko has said that a special status the country's Donbass region in the east will not be enshrined in the constitutional amendments prepared recently.Poroshenko made the comment after submitting the amendments which boost regional competences aiming at decentralization, but falling short of the "federalization" which a vast part of the anti-government rebels operating in the Donbass have demanded since April.The President, however, is quoted by Interfax Ukraine as saying that the project allows for a "specific kind of local self-rule in separate administrative and territorial units of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions which will be determined by a separate law".He believes this will be in line with the Minsk agreements. Signed in Februarybetween Kiev and Donbass rebels and brokered by Russia, Germany and France, the last deal includes boosting self-rule in the Donbass region as a key prerequisite to winding down tensions and ending hostilities.In March, Ukraine's Parliament moved to recognize Donbass as "occupied territories", but also to create a list of regions where local-self rule can be applied.
http://m.novinite.com/articles/169605/Ukraine+President+Says+No+Special+Status+for+Donbass+in+Constitution
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Here we go again same old story!! (:)
Maybe a new Maidan in the building
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33392991
Poroshenko is due to be ousted anyway. This will be the start.
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Here we go again same old story!! (:)
Maybe a new Maidan in the building
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33392991
Poroshenko is due to be ousted anyway. This will be the start.
Yep here starts the down fall of the chocolate king , the destructive society starts to move again (:)
And they want to be part of the EU :chuckle:
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Here we go again same old story!! (:)
Maybe a new Maidan in the building
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33392991
Poroshenko is due to be ousted anyway. This will be the start.
Yep here starts the down fall of the chocolate king , the destructive society starts to move again (:)
And they want to be part of the EU :chuckle:
I wondering how long it will take for you guys to blame the USA for financing it?
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Here we go again same old story!! (:)
Maybe a new Maidan in the building
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33392991
Poroshenko is due to be ousted anyway. This will be the start.
Yep here starts the down fall of the chocolate king , the destructive society starts to move again (:)
And they want to be part of the EU :chuckle:
I wondering how long it will take for you guys to blame the USA for financing it?
Funny you should bring that up, are we sitting on the fence now?
Of course we would not think that the USA are helping, that would just be silly would it not?
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Of course we would not think that the USA are helping, that would just be silly would it not?
'help' - if it is from guys like this...no thanks
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33393638 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33393638)
Ukraine crisis: Far-right 'show of strength' in Kiev
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The first link, is an article by RT, highlights kiev's violations, reported by the OSCE.
The second link is the actual report from the OSCE website.
Kiev in violation of heavy weaponry clause in E. Ukraine - OSCE
http://rt.com/news/271606-kiev-osce-violation-weapons/
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/170161
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Residents Of Donbass Tell Separatists To Leave: A Glimmer Of Hope?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2015/06/17/residents-of-donbass-tell-separatists-to-leave-a-glimmer-of-hope/
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I thought this was an interesting point of view, from Ukrainian's first president. :coffeeread:
Ukraine's First President Blasts Putin as Well as Western Indifference
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7738458
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Ukraine - a ’Banana Republic’ without bananas
http://rt.com/op-edge/272986-ukraine-crisis-conflict-maidan/
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Like I said before, Roshen chocolate is damn good. I am not against Poroshenko. He is the best hope for Ukraine right now. He is on friendly terms with Putin, and, as an oligarch himself, sees the future of Ukraine as a negotiated deal.
I wish that he gets his fair chance to take part in a negotiated deal. But it seems like other parties have made up their minds, and are looking at at larger strategic picture.
Too bad for Ukraine.
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"We know precisely who started the war in Ukraine: It was Putin and his circle," Navalny said. "And he did it in order to maintain his monopoly on power so that he can keep, among other things, his exclusive right for him and his people to enrich themselves."
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-navalny-interview-putin-crimea-sanctions/27042000.html
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"We know precisely who started the war in Ukraine: It was Putin and his circle," Navalny said. "And he did it in order to maintain his monopoly on power so that he can keep, among other things, his exclusive right for him and his people to enrich themselves."
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-navalny-interview-putin-crimea-sanctions/27042000.html
Certain types of people have always held mafia types in high regard. Just look at the popularity of the Godfather movies.
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It seems that the OSCE practice of slanting their written reports in a manner unsupported by their tabulated data continues, although the latest report is not the most egregious example.
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It seems that the OSCE practice of slanting their written reports in a manner unsupported by their tabulated data continues, although the latest report is not the most egregious example.
Seriously, they are not supposed to be too open, about what they observe. They are not supposed to inflame the debates by being to direct. They leave that to CNN. :-X
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So the reason andrewfi has ducked my question about the OSCE is their 'bias'
.
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If they had flagrant items to report against Russia, they probably would. The fact that they are mostly mute, gives credence to the insinuations that may be Ukraine is not that clean after all.
I, for one, fully expected the OSCE inspectors to quickly gather facts against Russia, especially with regards to the MH17 crash, but nothing of the sort has happened. One is left to wonder why. OSCE staff is mostly European, and they are accountable to European countries. Their silence is getting troubling.
In the case of the Germanwings crash, they had a probable cause within 7 days. Here, after one year, nothing has transpired, meaning that it is being kept under wraps.
There is no way such a mishap could not have been solved in that timeframe.
The plane was under radar coverage, and the whole area is in a positive air traffic control zone.
Think what you want, but the smell of fish is getting stronger.
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If they had flagrant items to report against Russia, they probably would. The fact that they are mostly mute, gives credence to the insinuations that may be Ukraine is not that clean after all.
I, for one, fully expected the OSCE inspectors to quickly gather facts against Russia, especially with regards to the MH17 crash, but nothing of the sort has happened. One is left to wonder why. OSCE staff is mostly European, and they are accountable to European countries. Their silence is getting troubling.
In the case of the Germanwings crash, they had a probable cause within 7 days. Here, after one year, nothing has transpired, meaning that it is being kept under wraps.
There is no way such a mishap could not have been solved in that timeframe.
The plane was under radar coverage, and the whole area is in a positive air traffic control zone.
Think what you want, but the smell of fish is getting stronger.
+100%
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If they had flagrant items to report against Russia, they probably would. The fact that they are mostly mute, gives credence to the insinuations that may be Ukraine is not that clean after all.
I, for one, fully expected the OSCE inspectors to quickly gather facts against Russia, especially with regards to the MH17 crash, but nothing of the sort has happened. One is left to wonder why. OSCE staff is mostly European, and they are accountable to European countries. Their silence is getting troubling.
In the case of the Germanwings crash, they had a probable cause within 7 days. Here, after one year, nothing has transpired, meaning that it is being kept under wraps.
There is no way such a mishap could not have been solved in that timeframe.
The plane was under radar coverage, and the whole area is in a positive air traffic control zone.
Think what you want, but the smell of fish is getting stronger.
+100%
Yup.
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The only thing smelly about MH17 is the serial conflicting explanations for the flights demise from Moscow.
It took MUCH longer for the Rissians to report their findings of the crash at Yarolslavl ... conspiracy theorists should be asking why flights were still allowed over this area after 2 UA planes had been shot down at great altitude on the 14th and 16th...the latter being one day before MH17.
What aeems to be generally agreed now.. it was a BUK system missile.
Makes one wonder about those 'SU 25s' that Miscow was insistent were involved...aircraft that simply could not climb faster than the Beoing could cruise or get within 4000m of altitude if armed.. RT ran a doc of an unladen SU25 and hopef we'd forget the moment it was armed their proof an SU25..a ground support aircraft.. could fly that high.
The Moscow press had it bang on for the first hour... their Life TV news crew was with 'rebels' and a Russian .social media site with 375k followers site .. they all ran the news that it was the 'rebels' that shot down 'another AN26'....
Within hours those stories were pulled and phase 1 of deceive and deny kicked in..We were told of a Carlos at Kiev Aur Traffic control who told us the recordings of the instructions to the Malaysian airliner had been taken by the UA security services...
Now we are being told the missile used was of a type not used by Russia..
How anyone can expect a swift result when the plane fell in a war zone...
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This is now just a big cover up. I hope that one day the truth comes out.
Like this one:
Governments asked to open secret files on 1961 plane crash that killed 16
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/dag-hammarskj%C3%B6ld-death-details-may-still-be-sealed-un-says-1.3145238
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Alfymoby, you are incorrect about the SU-25 you might want to update your knowledge.
The BUK missile hypothesis has NOT been generally accepted - that might become clearer after, and if, there is ever a full report from the current investigation.
'Carlos', whoever he was, actually warned of the event before it was known about through his Twitter account. His account based upon what he was seeing was not about ground launched missiles.
The manufacturers of the BUK missile made the point that the damage they saw in photographic evidence was not consistent with the impact from BUK warheads sold to and used by the Russians - the nearest equivalent was to an older type used in export models, available to Ukraine.
The question I always fund myself asking is whether you genuinely believe that which you write, whether you believe what you write - but it is the product of an errant mind or whether you actually know more than you admit to but prefer to troll.
Consistency with that which we know about you suggests one of the two latter options; what is your thought on the matter?
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andfi The question I always fund myself asking is whether you genuinely believe that which you write, whether you believe what you write - but it is the product of an errant mind or whether you actually know more than you admit to but prefer to troll.
Consistency with that which we know about you suggests one of the two latter options; what is your thought on the matter?
Ignore Report to moderator Logged
andrew
thoughts on the matter ??
you andrew are the great pretender , a rather sad over weight desolate figure who likes to pontificate to others on what he thinks he knows about life ,while your own real life slips past you
SX
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Alfymoby, you are incorrect about the SU-25 you might want to update your knowledge.
OK.. tell me how / where I am 'incorrect'?
The BUK missile hypothesis has NOT been generally accepted - that might become clearer after, and if, there is ever a full report from the current investigation.
This is your opinion.. and I am quite happy to wait until Sept /Oct to demonstrate your folly.
'Carlos', whoever he was, actually warned of the event before it was known about through his Twitter account. His account based upon what he was seeing was not about ground launched missiles.
)) 'whoever he WAS ?' .... Has he been 'killed' ? He never existed..
The manufacturers of the BUK missile made the point that the damage they saw in photographic evidence was not consistent with the impact from BUK warheads sold to and used by the Russians - the nearest equivalent was to an older type used in export models, available to Ukraine.
Yes, I read this opinion and I am sure it will be investigated.
As you are quoting social media you'll know that the 'rebels' claimed to have captured a BUK system before the 3 planes shot down at great height on 14th, 16th and 17th July ?
The question I always fund myself asking is whether you genuinely believe that which you write, whether you believe what you write - but it is the product of an errant mind or whether you actually know more than you admit to but prefer to troll.
Consistency with that which we know about you suggests one of the two latter options; what is your thought on the matter?
My thought on the matter is quite clear.. Trolls write stuff to inflame and cause chaos on fora.. They post fibs in an attempt to discredit those that are countering stuff that renders them foolish.
Please ask the same question to the face you see when you shave. Depending on which face of Janus mode you are encountering you might get a troubling response that should be addressed.
I stopped wondering about your 'agenda' long ago and simply counter your biased opinions .. normally based on groundless 'data'
If you remember that was upset you so much about your 'report' about the 'demise of the RU br*de'...whixh was nothing more than a failed marketing stunt for a project you were associated with.
The demise came about because of the sites that alliwed the ladies to market themselves and the poor relations / proxy war being fought in a part of the FSU.
I thought this site was about helping folk from 'the west' / FSU to form relationships...
You tend to mock those in their endaevours and pick the bones of failures... rare is the time I see you congratulate folk.
I do not know if you are now making clandestine trips to what seems like your pay master..judging by the lack of objectivity in your posts..but I don't see you offering much positive advice to help guys
I am in Russia and can confirm I have met nothing but hospitality and no animosity to having a UK passport.
Naturally, I do not discuss my feelings about what I do not like about the Kremlin's part in Ukraine's problems.
That plays no part in my feelings for a Russian citizen and I would recommend those who are put off by what negative reports you might read about Russians in general, to 'ignore' them.
People seem genuinely pleased that westerners would still come and want to practise their English.
That completes my honest response to your question ...
Unlike you, I don't duck awkward questions ....
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Poroshenko might have more to worry about than what Russia is up to?
Has The War In Ukraine Moved To A Second Front?
http://www.rferl.mobi/
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Poroshenko faces new security crisis in western Ukraine
http://news.yahoo.com/poroshenko-faces-security-crisis-western-ukraine-153613671.html
Ukraine-Armed Militias Declare War On Government
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Ukraine-Armed-Militias-Declare-War-On-Government-20150712-0013.html
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Can kiev handle crisis in the east and west?
Ukraine: Record number of Russian troops amassing in east amid nationalist uprising
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/13/l-todd-wood-ukraine-record-number-russian-troops-a/
Seems Poroshenko has his hands full :chuckle:
Ukrainian tank battalion goes AWOL, demands Poroshenko to stop 'mayhem in the army
http://rt.com/news/273415-tank-battalion-poroshenko-message/
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Poroshenko might have more to worry about than what Russia is up to?
Has The War In Ukraine Moved To A Second Front?
http://www.rferl.mobi/
Surely, that would be at least the 'third front'...
UA has Russian forces in Crimea that can move northwards, from the SE and those that might take matters into their own hands .... Putin applied the catalyst ..
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If they had flagrant items to report against Russia, they probably would. The fact that they are mostly mute, gives credence to the insinuations that may be Ukraine is not that clean after all.
I, for one, fully expected the OSCE inspectors to quickly gather facts against Russia, especially with regards to the MH17 crash, but nothing of the sort has happened. One is left to wonder why. OSCE staff is mostly European, and they are accountable to European countries. Their silence is getting troubling.
In the case of the Germanwings crash, they had a probable cause within 7 days. Here, after one year, nothing has transpired, meaning that it is being kept under wraps.
There is no way such a mishap could not have been solved in that timeframe.
The plane was under radar coverage, and the whole area is in a positive air traffic control zone.
Think what you want, but the smell of fish is getting stronger.
So lets see...you are comparing two crashes and wondering why one is not solved as quickly?
1. Germanwings crash caused by the co-pilot flying the plane into side of a mountain. Crash was NOT in a war zone so the investigation could access the crash quickly, with no delays or lost evidence. Also, since the perpetrator was dead noone was left to try to hide, delay or suppress information. Solved quickly.
2. MH17 crash where it happened in a war zone which delayed access to the site, added to the confusion and chaos. The perpetrators on the ground (or in the air) and their allies would obviously do everything in their power to hide the evidince of their grave war crime against civilians. Both for personal and politcal reasons. Delays, lost evidence, and obfuscation all around both by the perpatrators and whole govnernments.
No matter WHO you think might be behind the situation you can see why one investigation would be very difficult and slow indeed.
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The manufacturers of the BUK missile made the point that the damage they saw in photographic evidence was not consistent with the impact from BUK warheads sold to and used by the Russians - the nearest equivalent was to an older type used in export models, available to Ukraine.
So the company that makes the missile and who are based in Moscow have said it was not the Russian's who did it. Yep...they must be telling the truth there because there would be no other reasons they might conclude that. No hidden agenda so to speak. Hahaha. Too funny.
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With pressure from the United states and Europe, would seem Ukrainian government is being forced to vote as directed.
It's ok to swing votes as long as it's in line with United states policy. :chuckle:
Is this the freedom promised to Ukraine?
How is this any different than if Russia was pressuring the Ukrainian government?
Donbass autonomy to test Ukrainian government
http://www.dw.com/en/donbass-autonomy-to-test-ukrainian-government/a-18592845
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Markje would your wife, when she worked as a lawyer in Ukraine, go into court with information from an anonymous blogger's website as evidence? As for the law being followed or not being followed I can easily find just as much evidence to say the law was followed as anything Andrew has presented.
Looks like even poroshenko now agrees with me. Yanu's impeachment was illegal!
For the conspiracy theorists, lets quote a western website on this.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/06/ukraines-pres-poroshenko-says-overthrow-of-yanukovych-was-a-coup.html
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Markje would your wife, when she worked as a lawyer in Ukraine, go into court with information from an anonymous blogger's website as evidence? As for the law being followed or not being followed I can easily find just as much evidence to say the law was followed as anything Andrew has presented.
Looks like even poroshenko now agrees with me. Yanu's impeachment was illegal!
For the conspiracy theorists, lets quote a western website on this.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/06/ukraines-pres-poroshenko-says-overthrow-of-yanukovych-was-a-coup.html
Because he knows he is soon to be ousted in a similar way.
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Yes, made the point some time ago: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=20984.msg409697;topicseen;highlight=yanukovych+poroshenko+coup#msg409697
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Message From Battlefield Ukraine
The President of an invaded country asks the West: Are you with the barbarian or with the free world?
As befits a head of state managing a war, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is blunt in an interview Monday evening at the presidential-administration building here. Asked about the kind of weapons his armed forces would need to deter further aggression by Russia and its separatist proxies in eastern Ukraine, Mr. Poroshenko gets specific: “We’re looking for just 1,240 Javelin missiles, and this is absolutely fair
Full article link below
http://www.wsj.com/articles/message-from-battlefield-ukraine-1438106297
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Does anyone know where the funds come from for the social payments?
Where is lugansk getting the large amount of money needed?
Lugansk republic leader pledges social payments are made in full
http://novorossia.today/lugansk-republic-leader-pledges-social-payments-are-made-in-full/
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Does anyone know where the funds come from for the social payments?
Where is lugansk getting the large amount of money needed?
Lugansk republic leader pledges social payments are made in full
http://novorossia.today/lugansk-republic-leader-pledges-social-payments-are-made-in-full/
my guess from taxing local population like any normal state
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Many businesses are restarting, and, of course many never fully ceased operation. The market is, of course, focused eastward.
A significant issue is that as money has returned to the economy the ability to make transactions has also returned. That the money in circulation is increasingly the ruble is the fault of the Kievan administration for having withdrawn the apparatus of state from the region. Once that occurred many months ago much that followed including a practical move to independence became inevitable.
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From today's view of the situation, the results may be forecasted as follows:
A. Russia has suffered a momentary setback, due to sanctions, but will recover stronger, and more independent from the west.
B. Europe is also affected by the war, so close to them. They will suffer more by financing the Ukrainian economic meltdown. This will take a few years.
C. Europe may adjust their relations with the US, as a consequence, and eventually create their own unified defense group, a NATO parallel.
D. Ukraine has been broken, and will suffer for many years. Many Ukrainians will emigrate to Europe, to find work, and a living. Infighting will continue between feuding oligarchs, for quite a long time.
E. May be Europe will seek to readjust their relations with Russia, for the greater benefit of its nations, to the detriment of closer relations to Ukraine.
F. The US has no interest, at least until after elections, to put troops and money in Ukraine. Actually, they will try to keep this failed political fisco below the radar during the election campaign period.
Let's see. :coffeeread:
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That the money in circulation is increasingly the ruble is the fault of the Kievan administration for having withdrawn the apparatus of state from the region. Once that occurred many months ago much that followed including a practical move to independence became inevitable.
Moderator Warning.
Confine personal insults to the designated place. In future any of your posts which contain a personal insult will be deleted entirely.
Comment Deleted
Leslied
Can you tell us to whom Russia paid social funds when indiscriminately bombing Grozny and they had lost control ? Ooops ...
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Markje would your wife, when she worked as a lawyer in Ukraine, go into court with information from an anonymous blogger's website as evidence? As for the law being followed or not being followed I can easily find just as much evidence to say the law was followed as anything Andrew has presented.
Looks like even poroshenko now agrees with me. Yanu's impeachment was illegal!
For the conspiracy theorists, lets quote a western website on this.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/06/ukraines-pres-poroshenko-says-overthrow-of-yanukovych-was-a-coup.html
Because he knows he is soon to be ousted in a similar way.
Yea the same guy thinks the we (US) are going to overthrow Putin the same way we got rid of Yanu. I wonder between Poroshenko or Putin, who will be out of office first?
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Yea the same guy thinks the we (US) are going to overthrow Putin the same way we got rid of Yanu.
Oh, you would, gladly, only if you could ;D
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Alfy, you seem to have been living in some kind of time warp.
If you consult a recent history of the area you will come to learn that until quite recently the Novorossians, as a majority, did not seek independence, although there were for sure plenty of supporters of independence around. The behaviour of the Kievan administration fostered and made concrete the notion of independence among a majority.
When the Kievan administration took it upon itself to deny transfer payments, order closure of banks and withdrawal of physical currency the adoption of either some form of scrip or, more conveniently, the ruble was inevitable.
A decision of the highest court in Ukraine with regard to social payments to Ukrainian citizens has no bearing upon actions that may or may not have occurred almost 2 decades ago in Russia.
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Extreme proverty grips LPR and DPR.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ukrainians-facing-worst-crisis-since-world-war-ii-starving-elderly-throwing-themselves-from-windows-and-bridges-warns-catholic-bishop-142078/#!
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Extreme proverty grips LPR and DPR.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ukrainians-facing-worst-crisis-since-world-war-ii-starving-elderly-throwing-themselves-from-windows-and-bridges-warns-catholic-bishop-142078/#!
As I have not heard from other sources yet about this, I have my reservations. It seems propaganda.
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Extreme proverty grips LPR and DPR.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ukrainians-facing-worst-crisis-since-world-war-ii-starving-elderly-throwing-themselves-from-windows-and-bridges-warns-catholic-bishop-142078/#!
As I have not heard from other sources yet about this, I have my reservations. It seems propaganda.
Who would benefit by this propaganda?
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Extreme proverty grips LPR and DPR.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ukrainians-facing-worst-crisis-since-world-war-ii-starving-elderly-throwing-themselves-from-windows-and-bridges-warns-catholic-bishop-142078/#!
As I have not heard from other sources yet about this, I have my reservations. It seems propaganda.
In my mind a more likely reason for old people diving from windows is a relative who wants their apartment. Back in the 90s it was fashionable for easy transfers.
There was an article not long ago about how some pensioners in the east get what help they can from the Russian side and then cross over to get their pension from Kiev. With all the propaganda it is difficult to say what is true anywhere, anymore but it sounds likely.
Most likely some are also just taking the big leap.
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Extreme proverty grips LPR and DPR.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ukrainians-facing-worst-crisis-since-world-war-ii-starving-elderly-throwing-themselves-from-windows-and-bridges-warns-catholic-bishop-142078/#!
If you had any knowledge of the average pension in ukraine , you would not think this could not happen , the average pension in ukraine was once about 100.00 dollars a month , now The average pension in Ukraine is $ 53.78 (in June 2015)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/economic-genocide-ukraine-cuts-off-payment-of-pensions-to-one-million-senior-citizens-in-donbass/5439254 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/economic-genocide-ukraine-cuts-off-payment-of-pensions-to-one-million-senior-citizens-in-donbass/5439254)
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/politics/verkhovna-rada-revises-20-billion-budget-cuts-pensions-in-hopes-of-25-billion-financial-aid-382405.html (http://www.Kievpost.com/content/politics/verkhovna-rada-revises-20-billion-budget-cuts-pensions-in-hopes-of-25-billion-financial-aid-382405.html)
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The wheels are in motion for eastern Ukraine to self govern.
I think the faster kiev separates from the east, the better for all involved.
But without the land bridge, it's doubtful this will work itself out anytime soon.
I am also curious as to why eastern Ukraine does not receive money from the United states?
This is the place that needs funding most.
Kiev and the United states have done nothing to offer an olive branch, so whenever happens from this point, it's because Poroshenko, and company, did not take the diplomatic route.
Ukraine court backs self-rule plan for conflict zone
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33736069
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I am also curious as to why eastern Ukraine does not receive money from the United states?
This is the place that needs funding most.
I don't think you are that naïve to even ask that question. Do you genuinely want a answer?
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I am also curious as to why eastern Ukraine does not receive money from the United states?
This is the place that needs funding most.
I don't think you are that naïve to even ask that question.
IF you read western media, unless you know about the happening in Ukraine, one is left with the impression that these funds are for Ukraine, even if the separatists hold the east it's still Ukraine.
:biggrin:
The United state's and the EU have given billions to kiev, yet they crying because their economy's crap.
The east gets nothing, but will somehow manage to pay for social payments to pensioners.
Something is definitely wrong.
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I am also curious as to why eastern Ukraine does not receive money from the United states?
This is the place that needs funding most.
I don't think you are that naïve to even ask that question.
IF you read western media, unless you know about the happening in Ukraine, one is left with the impression that these funds are for Ukraine, even if the separatists hold the east it's still Ukraine.
:biggrin:
The United state's and the EU have given billions to kiev, yet they crying because their economy's crap.
The east gets nothing, but will somehow manage to pay for social payments to pensioners.
Something is definitely wrong.
No, Kiev is not paying for pensioners in the east - Russia is.
Yes, Kiev has had billions - and much got stolen. The nature of the beast.
The US continued its world terrorism tour with a funded regime change in Ukraine as part of the greater war against Russia. The east broke away, some say with help from Russia although that is not confirmed. The US installed their chosen leader in Ukraine to make EU noises. But he isn't doing what he said, so he will be replaced soon with a more pliable puppet. Meanwhile, Russia brought Crimea home to save it coming under American control. Italy and France accept this already. Rest of world to follow.
In next weeks news, the US created another regime change in a Russian leaning Eastern European country. But we should pretend it is a "revolution" of some kind. We will give it a catchy name like "Magenta Revolution" and lots of people will die. Pyatt/Kerry/McCain will make some nice "pro-democracy" tweets, Nuland will hand out cookies, the UK media will blame Putin, and later on, some relatives of American politicians will take control of the utility companies.....ad infinitum
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Kiev DOES pay pensions to people in the east. It does NOT pay pensions within the occupied east. If you want it you must get it in an area where the banking is secure and outside the occupied area.
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Kiev DOES pay pensions to people in the east. It does NOT pay pensions within the occupied east. If you want it you must get it in an area where the banking is secure and outside the occupied area.
I have a feeling this sort of info is an example of how things are twisted to suit certain posters agenda that Kiev is 'punishing' folk by 'withholding' welfare payments...
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I am also curious as to why eastern Ukraine does not receive money from the United states?
This is the place that needs funding most.
I don't think you are that naïve to even ask that question.
IF you read western media, unless you know about the happening in Ukraine, one is left with the impression that these funds are for Ukraine, even if the separatists hold the east it's still Ukraine.
:biggrin:
The United state's and the EU have given billions to kiev, yet they crying because their economy's crap.
The east gets nothing, but will somehow manage to pay for social payments to pensioners.
Something is definitely wrong.
No, Kiev is not paying for pensioners in the east - Russia is.
Yes, Kiev has had billions - and much got stolen. The nature of the beast.
The US continued its world terrorism tour with a funded regime change in Ukraine as part of the greater war against Russia. The east broke away, some say with help from Russia although that is not confirmed. The US installed their chosen leader in Ukraine to make EU noises. But he isn't doing what he said, so he will be replaced soon with a more pliable puppet. Meanwhile, Russia brought Crimea home to save it coming under American control. Italy and France accept this already. Rest of world to follow.
In next weeks news, the US created another regime change in a Russian leaning Eastern European country. But we should pretend it is a "revolution" of some kind. We will give it a catchy name like "Magenta Revolution" and lots of people will die. Pyatt/Kerry/McCain will make some nice "pro-democracy" tweets, Nuland will hand out cookies, the UK media will blame Putin, and later on, some relatives of American politicians will take control of the utility companies.....ad infinitum
The russians where not stupid when it came to crimea , as if they had not taken crimea the next thing you would have is a Nato base where the black sea fleet is , this was the whole reason for the big out crie at first the eu and the US aka NATO didn't get the chance to take over that base and are upset
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The russians where not stupid when it came to crimea , as if they had not taken crimea the next thing you would have is a Nato base where the black sea fleet is , this was the whole reason for the big out crie at first the eu and the US aka NATO didn't get the chance to take over that base and are upset
Odessa, in full seriousness, isn't that a common knowledge? (Mine is rhetorical... ;)) It's really very naive and stupid to see anything else there, that's the truth (wrapped in the tale of Crimean Tatars and what not (:) )
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The russians where not stupid when it came to crimea , as if they had not taken crimea the next thing you would have is a Nato base where the black sea fleet is , this was the whole reason for the big out crie at first the eu and the US aka NATO didn't get the chance to take over that base and are upset
Odessa, in full seriousness, isn't that a common knowledge? (Mine is rhetorical... ;)) It's really very naive and stupid to see anything else there, that's the truth (wrapped in the tale of Crimean Tatars and what not (:) )
Those who rely on western media will earnestly insist that Russia "invaded" and "stole" Crimea, elections were held at "gunpoint" and it is the first stop on a Hitleresque march across Europe. Ergo, Russia is "aggressive" and "must be stopped" before it invades Belgium. But no worries, good old Uncle Sam is riding to the rescue and will solve the situation by taking over all the Ukrainian utility companies by stealth. :chuckle:
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Those who rely on western media will earnestly insist that Russia "invaded" and "stole" Crimea, elections were held at "gunpoint" and it is the first stop on a Hitleresque march across Europe. Ergo, Russia is "aggressive" and "must be stopped" before it invades Belgium.
Oh, no!!! :eeekk: They must be after the Belgian waffles!!! Stop 'em, please!!! :snivel: Don't let them take our waffles from us!!!
But no worries, good old Uncle Sam is riding to the rescue and will solve the situation by taking over all the Ukrainian utility companies by stealth. :chuckle:
Pheww, i feel relieved!!! ;D
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The russians where not stupid when it came to crimea , as if they had not taken crimea the next thing you would have is a Nato base where the black sea fleet is , this was the whole reason for the big out crie at first the eu and the US aka NATO didn't get the chance to take over that base and are upset
Yeah, yeah... I roll around every time I read this...
Question.... Before the Crimea stunt - when did UA folk EVER express an interest in NATO membership ?. They were a nuclear non-proliferation state.
The very thought of such a thing would have been a negative.
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Bagalia, you are partly right, but misinformed.
You are correct that pensions etc are sometimes being paid to those who are willing to cross borders - not a safe process. Until recently people in the eastern region had to pay access fees at Ukraine checkpoints in order to get a document allowing them to enter Kievan controlled areas. The documentation was not provided immediately requiring more than one visit to the Kievan checkpoints. The cost of the process meant that collection of payment was not viable.
At the moment the situation is improving slightly. The new military governor of the region is setting up what are called Logistics Centres which will house shops and bankomats. This is related to the Minsk 2 agreement. As I recall there is just one for the whole region, there will be three at some point in the future. This is not a solution but is a gesture only.
However this is not much practical help for most who can not easily travel. Bear in mind that most settlements are designed such that it is not necessary for people to travel further than a few hundred meters to access money and basic provisions. Travelling many kilometres is not in any way a substitute.
In addition Ukraine is not paying pensions etc to anyone who is a refugee, again, this contravenes Ukrainian law which makes it clear that payment should be made to citizens wherever they are except in cases where a reciprocal arrangement is in place.
When Ukraine took the step of ceasing payments that it was obligated to make the situation in the LPR/DPR was very different to today and was a deliberately provocative act designed to enforce separation. That goal was attained.
====
Moby, catchup time. The EU association agreement mandated that Ukraine give access to Ukrainian territory to NATO. This was not a great secret. The effect of the terms was that Ukraine would have been an associate member of NATO but without any input into policy or operation.
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Bagalia, you are partly right, but misinformed.
You are correct that pensions etc are sometimes being paid to those who are willing to cross borders - not a safe process.
Until recently people in the eastern region had to pay access fees at Ukraine checkpoints in order to get a document allowing them to enter Kievan controlled areas. The documentation was not provided immediately requiring more than one visit to the Kievan checkpoints. The cost of the process meant that collection of payment was not viable.
'what border ?' It's a checkpoint - as the actual border is currently occupied.
Please can you quote the source for your information that locals in the occupied areas are being ripped off. A source that is not politically aligned.
Many people I know are crossing to Russia via the occupied areas from 'normal' parts of Ukraine. I spent 3 hours in their company last night.
IF it was 'dangerous' they would go a long way to over Donbass, right ....
The shooting / shelling tends to happen at night - when it is hard for observers to ascertain who is responsible
I will ask them if they have had to pay your 'non viable fee'...
Whilst I have no doubt many might not want to cross into Kiev controlled areas, on principle - many do.
You posted misleading info about non payment about welfare benefits... now you already conceded that they could be collected ..
Hmm
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The russians where not stupid when it came to crimea , as if they had not taken crimea the next thing you would have is a Nato base where the black sea fleet is , this was the whole reason for the big out crie at first the eu and the US aka NATO didn't get the chance to take over that base and are upset
Yeah, yeah... I roll around every time I read this...
Question.... Before the Crimea stunt - when did UA folk EVER express an interest in NATO membership ?. They were a nuclear non-proliferation state.
The very thought of such a thing would have been a negative.
On 29 August 2014, following reports that the Russian military was operating within Ukraine, Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk announced that he would ask the Ukrainian parliament to put Ukraine on a path towards NATO membership.[61] The government has also signaled that it hopes for major non-NATO ally status with the United States, NATO's largest military power and contributor.As part of these efforts, and to rule out future Ukrainian membership in the Eurasian Economic Union and other Russian-led supranational entities, Yatseniuk also submitted a draft law to repeal Ukraine's non-bloc status previously instituted by Yanukovych.[63] Following parliamentary elections in October 2014, the new government made joining NATO a priority.[64]
On 23 December 2014 the Ukrainian parliament renounced Ukraine's non-aligned status, a step harshly condemned by Russia. The new law states that Ukraine's previous non-aligned status "proved to be ineffective in guaranteeing Ukraine's security and protecting the country from external aggression and pressure" and also aims to deepen Ukrainian cooperation with NATO "in order to achieve the criteria which are required for membership in the alliance". On 29 December 2014 Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko (elected president on 25 May 2014) vowed to hold a referendum on joining NATO.
A number of military exercises are now planned between NATO members and Ukraine in 2015. Among them are Operation Fearless Guardian (total 2,200 participants, including 1,000 U.S. military). Initial personnel and equipment of the 173rd Airborne Brigade arrived in Yavoriv, Lvov Oblast, on 10 April 2015. Fearless Guardian will train Ukraine's newly-formed National Guard under the Congress-approved Global Contingency Security Fund. Under the program, the United States will begin training three battalions of Ukrainian troops over a six-month period beginning in April 2015,[68] Others exercises include Exercise Sea Breeze 2015 (total 2,500 personnel of which 1,000 US military and 500 military from NATO or “Partnership for Peace” countries), “Saber Guardian/Rapid Trident – 2015” (total 2,100 members, including 500 US military and 600 NATO/PfP personnel), as well as the Ukrainian-Polish air exercise “Safe Skies – 2015” (total 350 participants, including 100 Polish military) and military police “Law and Order – 2015” (total 100 participants, 50 of which are Polish military
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations)
http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-wants-join-nato-321070 (http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-wants-join-nato-321070)
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YES, YES and all this info of yours POSTDATES the involvement of the Russian military who rented bases on the peninsula.
I note you ducked the question..
AGAIN ..my point is simple.. Ukrainians - previously - had never shown a desire to join NATO and thought they lived under the 'protection' of the Budapest Memorandum ....
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Bagalia, you are partly right, but misinformed.
You are correct that pensions etc are sometimes being paid to those who are willing to cross borders - not a safe process. Until recently people in the eastern region had to pay access fees at Ukraine checkpoints in order to get a document allowing them to enter Kievan controlled areas. The documentation was not provided immediately requiring more than one visit to the Kievan checkpoints. The cost of the process meant that collection of payment was not viable.
At the moment the situation is improving slightly. The new military governor of the region is setting up what are called Logistics Centres which will house shops and bankomats. This is related to the Minsk 2 agreement. As I recall there is just one for the whole region, there will be three at some point in the future. This is not a solution but is a gesture only.
However this is not much practical help for most who can not easily travel. Bear in mind that most settlements are designed such that it is not necessary for people to travel further than a few hundred meters to access money and basic provisions. Travelling many kilometres is not in any way a substitute.
In addition Ukraine is not paying pensions etc to anyone who is a refugee, again, this contravenes Ukrainian law which makes it clear that payment should be made to citizens wherever they are except in cases where a reciprocal arrangement is in place.
When Ukraine took the step of ceasing payments that it was obligated to make the situation in the LPR/DPR was very different to today and was a deliberately provocative act designed to enforce separation. That goal was attained.
====
Moby, catchup time. The EU association agreement mandated that Ukraine give access to Ukrainian territory to NATO. This was not a great secret. The effect of the terms was that Ukraine would have been an associate member of NATO but without any input into policy or operation.
Not exactly misinformed here as I am aware of the above and you are mostly but maybe not totally correct. There have been reports of people using the system to milk both sides so it can be profitable.
And I believe I am more right than saying that Kiev is not paying pensions (period).
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There's a large population of pensioners, that the possibility of receiving payment inside the separatists controlled area are slim to none.
Those that were displaced the amount received is not exactly profitable.
It's doubtful things have changed much since this article was published. :coffeeread:
Genocide by non-payment of retirement pensions: why Ukraine should pay pensions to the dwellers of the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics
http://novorossia.today/genocide-by-non-payment-of-retirement-pensions-why-ukraine-should-pay-pensions-to-the-dwellers-of-the-donetsk-and-lugansk-people-s-republics/
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Thanks for that link, there's a lot more to the story and none of that to the credit of the Kievan administration and its apologists.
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I thought I'd post a link from the OSCE - as they are a far more reliable source of information.
The report is from 4.5 months ago
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/148326?download=true (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/148326?download=true)
FACT; those living in the areas of Ukraine 'outside' govt control are not receiving pensions, welfare benefits- the govt. reasoning being they are not in control of the money's distribution. Pensions can be paid if they prevent themselves in areas under the control of the govt.
FACT; The UA govt forces and rebels are criticised for shelling civilian areas and firing from civilian areas.
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I prefer this little bit from a previous OSCE report from 15 Dec 14.
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/OHCHR_eighth_report_on_Ukraine.pdf
quote
12. Subsequently, the Government of Ukraine decided to temporarily relocate all State institutions and organisations present in areas controlled by the armed groups to Government-controlled areas. This implies the relocation of social, medical and educational institutions, the judiciary, penitentiary facilities, state enterprises and other entities, as well as banking services. As of 1 December, all allocations from the State budget, (including for social payments) to areas not controlled by the Government ceased. To continue receiving social payments, residents of Donetsk and Lugansk regions under the control of the armed groups are required to register by 31 December, in territory under the control of the Government. This was justified by the Government as necessary to prevent national budget funds falling into the hands of the armed groups who had taken control of social institutions, including local branches of the Pension Fund, as well as banks. However, pensions and other social payments will be redirected and may be received by beneficiaries and may be received in territory under the control of the Government.
unquote
To clear up how 595 has been misread; your local agency has been moved out of the occupied area and into a government controlled area. In order to receive your pension you must go and re-register at the new office. You will be paid outside of the occupied area. If you are an internal displaced person you will need to re-register in your new area and there are emergency payments that can be applied for (though they seem to be overwhelmed).
There are many who have done so and post it on social media. There are others that claim to get benefits from both sides also.
It is a shame that some are unwilling or unable to take advantage of this. It is a war. If you choose sides against Ukraine then you will lose your pension. If you are unable to take advantage then you are a victim of the war. There are always victims in war. Those who started the war should take responsibility.
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Those who started the war should take responsibility.
So America should pay the pensions?
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Those who started the war should take responsibility.
So America should pay the pensions?
Nice try. Russia used Ukraine as their biatch and Ukraine had enough of Moscow's puppet Yanuconvict stealing from them.
Russia is already paying for their foolish invasion and theft of territory not belonging to them and their lousy economy is only going to get worse.
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Those who started the war should take responsibility.
So America should pay the pensions?
Nice try. Russia used Ukraine as their biatch and Ukraine had enough of Moscow's puppet Yanuconvict stealing from them.
Russia is already paying for their foolish invasion and theft of territory not belonging to them and their lousy economy is only going to get worse.
You have a bright future on the BBC or the 'Moscow Times'.
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You have a bright future on the BBC or the 'Moscow Times'.
Brighter, than someone explaining that the Kremlin hadn't been undermining UA politics for years / had no physical involvement...
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If you don't mind tip toeing around a few land mines, the beaches in eastern Ukraine are near empty. :8)
Conflict scares off beach-goers in east Ukraine
http://news.yahoo.com/conflict-scares-off-beach-goers-east-ukraine-140754600.html
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Does not look like there will be an end to the conflict anytime soon.
Kiev does not want to pull back in the existing areas in the east, and without these areas secured by separatists, there's no land bridge.
IMHO, Poroshenko should try to negotiate a sale to Russia, and at least Ukraine would get something.
Ukraine leader calls in generals after failed peace talks
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-leader-calls-generals-failed-peace-talks-153253873.html
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Yes! It will take time, and goodwill. India and Bangladesh just sorted out their borders irregularities, after 70 years!
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-08-03/india-and-bangladesh-exchange-hundreds-border-enclaves-and-50000-people
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Poroshenko is in denial when it comes to Crimea .
Poroshenko: No local elections in annexed Crimea and occupied Donbas
http://uatoday.tv/politics/poroshenko-no-local-elections-in-annexed-crimea-and-occupied-donbas-470368.html
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Odessa to become gay capital of Ukraine
http://english.pravda.ru/news/society/10-08-2015/131612-odessa_gay_capital_ukraine-0/
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Even in time of war, football is not forgotten.
Ukraine rebel republics are united by football's separatist derby
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/10/ukraine-rebel-republics-donetsk-Lugansk-united-footballs-separatist-derby
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Poroshenko is in denial when it comes to Crimea .
Poroshenko: No local elections in annexed Crimea and occupied Donbas
http://uatoday.tv/politics/poroshenko-no-local-elections-in-annexed-crimea-and-occupied-donbas-470368.html
I call it being stubborn instead of denial but I also believe that if they really want to be fair about the whole thing they should give Crimea complete autonomy under the Tatars. :biggrin:
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Poroshenko is in denial when it comes to Crimea .
Poroshenko: No local elections in annexed Crimea and occupied Donbas
http://uatoday.tv/politics/poroshenko-no-local-elections-in-annexed-crimea-and-occupied-donbas-470368.html
I call it being stubborn instead of denial but I also believe that if they really want to be fair about the whole thing they should give Crimea complete autonomy under the Tatars. :biggrin:
No give it to the Greeks, they can appoint Wiz as the new Wiz the Great.
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Move aside Canada, and the United states, Britain, is stepping up their contributions to the war effort. Next thing we'll be calling them war mongers. :chuckle:
Michael Fallon warns Ukraine war remains 'red hot' as he pledges more British military help
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11795563/Michael-Fallon-warns-Ukraine-war-remains-red-hot-as-he-pledges-more-British-military-help.html
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Good to see the U.K. is stepping it up in Ukraine. :)
Us folk across the pond ain't the only ones akin for war.
UK announces doubling of military training for Ukrainian army – now for 2,000 soldiers
http://www.rt.com/news/312236-uk-ukraine-military-training/
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Good to see the U.K. is stepping it up in Ukraine. :)
Us folk across the pond ain't the only ones akin for war.
UK announces doubling of military training for Ukrainian army – now for 2,000 soldiers
http://www.rt.com/news/312236-uk-ukraine-military-training/
I wonder what we are going to train these troops to do. Throw rocks?? All this training stuff is a joke. Gee, if we are wanting to throw money away why not just give it to them. Maybe send a crew to repairs roads or something they need.
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I call it being stubborn instead of denial but I also believe that if they really want to be fair about the whole thing they should give Crimea complete autonomy under the Tatars. :biggrin:
No give it to the Greeks, they can appoint Wiz as the new Wiz the Great.
The Greeks - I'm sure you knew this - so sorry if it is teaching Grandma to suck eggs - did run the whole of Black Sea area in Byzantine times - incl Crimea .. many of the names of places - like Feodosia - are still the original Greek name.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Greek_colonies_of_the_Euxine_Sea.svg)
The heritage site of Chersonisos in Sevastopol is well worth a visit .
Wiz would be proud to tell you that the name means peninsula and may be it is the origin of Kherson, the Ukrainian city, too ..
Knowing a bit of Greek is quite useful ... Hippopotamus ...River horse :chuckle:
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Good to see the U.K. is stepping it up in Ukraine. :)
Us folk across the pond ain't the only ones akin for war.
UK announces doubling of military training for Ukrainian army – now for 2,000 soldiers
http://www.rt.com/news/312236-uk-ukraine-military-training/
I wonder what we are going to train these troops to do. Throw rocks?? All this training stuff is a joke. Gee, if we are wanting to throw money away why not just give it to them. Maybe send a crew to repairs roads or something they need.
There's more going on than just training, :)
Keep in mind should Ukraine receive military equipment they will be trained and ready to use it in combat.
They ain't just marching and having target practices.
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Imagine having to die for Poroshenko and his Chocolate factory...
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Imagine having to die for Poroshenko and his Chocolate factory...
Imagine dying for the Kremlin in Ukraine and Mum's not getting the facts About why they were there .. or dying in Iraq / Afghanistan because - in the earliest days, the armed forces were sent out in kit that wasn't designed to protect from IEDs
I think having to fight in a civil war must be the worst.
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I think having to fight in a civil war must be the worst.
Especially when it is being directed from Washington. Or by the defacto president of Ukraine, a certain Mr Pyatt.
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They ain't just marching and having target practices.
Actually if the British experience is similar to the US experience then that is exactly what will be going on.
The US trainers noted with shock the low level of training of the people they were assigned they needed training from the basics upward. Don't forget that many, if not most of the people being trained by the foreign forces in Ukraine are not part of the regular army, they are members of the nationalist battalions - the street thugs from Maidan, Odessa et al and so they will never have had basic training in a form familiar to regular forces from the west.
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I think having to fight in a civil war must be the worst.
Especially when it is being directed from Washington. Or by the defacto president of Ukraine, a certain Mr Pyatt.
Manny Manny Manny - you are giving Washington waaaay toooo much credit - Obama the Community Organizer could not arrange a Bread Line in Kiev next to a bakery ... they are that incompetent. The idea that they would be managing the hidden hands of revolution like Niccolo Machiavelli is beyond the realm of possibility what you should be looking at is your Austrian and Swiss based NeoNational NeoConservative Bilderbergers doing the bidding of the Rothschilds Global Bankstering empire - now that the Rockefellers have basically unbread themselves out of existence.
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I think having to fight in a civil war must be the worst.
Especially when it is being directed from Washington. Or by the defacto president of Ukraine, a certain Mr Pyatt.
Manny Manny Manny - you are giving Washington waaaay toooo much credit - Obama the Community Organizer could not arrange a Bread Line in Kiev next to a bakery ... they are that incompetent. The idea that they would be managing the hidden hands of revolution like Niccolo Machiavelli is beyond the realm of possibility what you should be looking at is your Austrian and Swiss based NeoNational NeoConservative Bilderbergers doing the bidding of the Rothschilds Global Bankstering empire - now that the Rockefellers have basically unbread themselves out of existence.
+1. This used to be a place with good debates and now it boils down to attempting to blame the USA for a mess started by Russia and their stooge Yanukovych.
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I call it being stubborn instead of denial but I also believe that if they really want to be fair about the whole thing they should give Crimea complete autonomy under the Tatars. :biggrin:
No give it to the Greeks, they can appoint Wiz as the new Wiz the Great.
The Greeks - I'm sure you knew this - so sorry if it is teaching Grandma to suck eggs - did run the whole of Black Sea area in Byzantine times - incl Crimea .. many of the names of places - like Feodosia - are still the original Greek name.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Greek_colonies_of_the_Euxine_Sea.svg)
The heritage site of Chersonisos in Sevastopol is well worth a visit .
Wiz would be proud to tell you that the name means peninsula and may be it is the origin of Kherson, the Ukrainian city, too ..
Knowing a bit of Greek is quite useful ... Hippopotamus ...River horse :chuckle:
I believe Feodosia is not the original Greek, that would be Theodosia. You also spelled Chersonesus a bit differently than most sources do.
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I think having to fight in a civil war must be the worst.
Especially when it is being directed from Washington. Or by the defacto president of Ukraine, a certain Mr Pyatt.
Manny Manny Manny - you are giving Washington waaaay toooo much credit - Obama the Community Organizer could not arrange a Bread Line in Kiev next to a bakery ... they are that incompetent. The idea that they would be managing the hidden hands of revolution like Niccolo Machiavelli is beyond the realm of possibility what you should be looking at is your Austrian and Swiss based NeoNational NeoConservative Bilderbergers doing the bidding of the Rothschilds Global Bankstering empire - now that the Rockefellers have basically unbread themselves out of existence.
+1. This used to be a place with good debates and now it boils down to attempting to blame the USA for a mess started by Russia and their stooge Yanukovych.
Anteros, Sad but true the shrill accent of Andrew combined the overbearing bleating of Manny is a big turn off.
My comment upthread about giving the Krim back to Greece and appointing the revived Wiz as the ruler was a joke. Sadly RUA now lacks sense of humour. Av
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My comment upthread about giving the Krim back to Greece and appointing the revived Wiz as the ruler was a joke. Sadly RUA now lacks sense of humour. Av
Your joke was appreciated - and this place doesn't lack humour - just balance - which is amusing to observe / point out
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Poroshenko seems to have his own agenda.
West Must Be Wary of Ukraine's Leaders
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/opinion/opinion/article/west-must-be-wary-of-ukraines-leaders/528280.html
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A couple documentary videos with the right sector fighting in Ukraine.
IUnder Fire With the Right Sector (Excerpt from 'Ukraine's Failed Ceasefire')
https://news.vice.com/video/under-fire-with-the-right-sector-excerpt-from-ukraines-failed-ceasefire
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Imagine having to die for Poroshenko and his Chocolate factory...
Imagine dying for the Kremlin in Ukraine and Mum's not getting the facts About why they were there .. or dying in Iraq / Afghanistan because - in the earliest days, the armed forces were sent out in kit that wasn't designed to protect from IEDs
I think having to fight in a civil war must be the worst.
Could Civil War be second worst?
Could fighting an insurrection fueled by the need of two world leaders for a Proxy War be worse?
Wayne
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Multiple injuries in Kiev as grenade explodes during protest against constitutional law
https://www.rt.com/news/313880-ukraine-radicals-protest-parliament/
There most likely will be more protests in the coming weeks. :coffeeread:
Deadly protest over Ukraine 'decentralisation' law
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/deadly-protest-ukraine-decentralisation-law-150831132200366.html
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Wonder how the United states would react if Russia did it's naval exercises off the United states coast?
NATO kicks off naval drills in Black Sea with Ukraine
https://www.rt.com/news/313861-nato-naval-exercise-ukraine/
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This article has a short video of the protest.
Clashes In Kiev ! Dead And Wounded, Police And Protesters Battle ! (Video and Photos)
http://novorossia.today/clashes-in-kiev-dead-and-wounded-police-and-protesters-battle-video-and-photos/
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Putin has been talking about high positions in Ukraine government given to foreigners. That it's not a good thing.
So far it would seem to be positive in shaking up the business as usual payoffs.
Saakashvili to Yatseniuk: fish or cut bait
http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/09/05/saakashvili_to_yatseniuk_fish_or_cut_bait_622011
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I believe Feodosia is not the original Greek, that would be Theodosia. You also spelled Chersonesus a bit differently than most sources do.
I spelt Feodosia in one form of anglicised Greek...one used by Russians and Greeks when righting in English...rather than the 'Th' you might use. Remind me how a certain town in Crimea thay Markje is spelt?!))
E.g. Theodore, Feodor.....
You might like to check out the Greek alphabet as it is English that came second....
.
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when righting in English
:coffeeread:
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I believe Feodosia is not the original Greek, that would be Theodosia. You also spelled Chersonesus a bit differently than most sources do.
I spelt Feodosia in one form of anglicised Greek...one used by Russians and Greeks when righting in English...rather than the 'Th' you might use. Remind me how a certain town in Crimea thay Markje is spelt?!))
E.g. Theodore, Feodor.....
You might like to check out the Greek alphabet as it is English that came second....
.
the town right now is called Feodosia, along the south-coast of Crimea a beautiful place to visit.
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With all the drama between the east and kiev, I found this kind of strange that they are still doing business.
But, not without disputes. :chuckle:
DPR stops supplying of coal to Kiev until deliveries of lubricants resume
http://novorossia.today/dpr-stops-supplying-of-coal-to-kiev-until-deliveries-of-lubricants-resume/
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With all the drama between the east and kiev, I found this kind of strange that they are still doing business.
But, not without disputes. :chuckle:
DPR stops supplying of coal to Kiev until deliveries of lubricants resume
http://novorossia.today/dpr-stops-supplying-of-coal-to-kiev-until-deliveries-of-lubricants-resume/
I assume Kiev forgot to order KY jelly.
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when righting in English
:coffeeread:
With all the drama between the east and kiev, I found this kind of strange that they are still doing business.
But, not without disputes. :chuckle:
DPR stops supplying of coal to Kiev until deliveries of lubricants resume
http://novorossia.today/dpr-stops-supplying-of-coal-to-kiev-until-deliveries-of-lubricants-resume/
I assume Kiev forgot to order KY jelly.
Funny, same thing I thought when I read the headline. :laugh:
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Novorossia becomes a joke; a hurricane in Kazan . . . priests being hung in the west for being pacifist . . . 4,000 in the summer dead because of gun violence in America.
Please find a better source. All the above is Kremlin bull shit.
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Novorossia becomes a joke; a hurricane in Kazan . . . priests being hung in the west for being pacifist . . . 4,000 in the summer dead because of gun violence in America.
Please find a better source. All the above is Kremlin bull shit.
32,000 gun deaths per year 4,000 seems a bit low.
One needs to read all sources, even if you don't always agree.
After all there are 2 sides to every story.
Sometimes half truths are all you will get from either side.
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A bunch of drunken fools with guns, dose not seem like much of an improvement.
Donbass Is Clinging to Illusion of Peace
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/529824.html
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A bunch of drunken fools with guns...
It's the same in the United States except that some of them are uniformed psychopaths with guns.
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Does Anyone Want Ukraine’s Donbass?
http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2406-does-anyone-want-ukraines-donbass
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Will be interesting to see what develops over the next couple months. :coffeeread:
U.S.-Installed Ukrainian Regime Now Fears Return of Donbass to Ukraine
http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-installed-ukrainian-regime-now-fears-return-of-donbass-to-ukraine/5475660
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Ukraine bans journalists who 'threaten national interests' from country
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/ukraine-president-bans-journalists-from-country
Ukraine is really making progress with its anti corruption. :chuckle:
Ukraine Anti-Corruption Official Arrested for… Corruption
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraine-anti-corruption-official-arrested-corruption/ri9750
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Ukraine Anti-Corruption Official Arrested for… Corruption
You couldn't make that up could you? :chuckle:
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Ukraine Anti-Corruption Official Arrested for… Corruption
You couldn't make that up could you? :chuckle:
The point may have passed over you head, Manny - but embarrassing as it might be - it demonstrates that Ukraine is demonstrating accountability doesn't stop if you have 'status'.
You have expressed it is 'ok' for those on meagre salaries in Russia - career politicians - to have 600k USD watches - says it all, really
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but embarrassing as it might be - it demonstrates that Ukraine is demonstrating accountability doesn't stop if you have 'status'.
Bollox. Its selective as ever. The new puppet in Odessa, Saakashvili, is a wanted man in Georgia where he came from. The laws in Ukraine prohibited putting a foreigner in that position, so they quickly printed him a passport.
Its all as bent as a nine bob note. The arrested bloke probably had someone else's fiddle who bubbled him. I wouldn't be too keen to hold it up as indicative of any change.
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In large part that is exactly what the various internal fights have been about - turf wars.
Look back and get a picture of who controls, or controlled, what. The info is not secret, but also not writ large for the hard of thinking or those who need to troll to make a dishonest point.
In that part of the world there's a phrase 'wetting the beak'. If one 'wets one's beak' then one has just taken corrupt money. The ability to do so and the degree to which it can be done is a reflection of one's position in the pecking order. As in many countries on a similar level of development this access to corruption is the reason for entering into the civil service or other bureaucratic organisations.
Actually, in part, this is why Yanukovych, for example, needed to appear wealthy and to have benefited from his position. Unless he had done so he would have had no credibility to deal with the oligarchs - a task at which, as recent events have confirmed, he was pretty good at. One might, justifiably, ask which came first, the chicken or the egg, but for sure, if he had not been able to display his capabilities to those who were his peers and competitors then he could not have governed the country or kept the oligarchy in check.
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but embarrassing as it might be - it demonstrates that Ukraine is demonstrating accountability doesn't stop if you have 'status'.
Bollox. Its selective as ever. The new puppet in Odessa, Saakashvili, is a wanted man in Georgia where he came from. The laws in Ukraine prohibited putting a foreigner in that position, so they quickly printed him a passport.
The 'puppet' set about cleaning up corruption in Odesa and has attracted the daughter of a former Russian pm - now an adversary of Putin to help him ... Yanu' is a wanted man and I don't see Russia handing him back ... so your pot calling simply amuses. I guess you sought to deflect from my point that Kremlin officials are among the worst offenders when it comes making a cozy nest .
Its all as bent as a nine bob note. The arrested bloke probably had someone else's fiddle who bubbled him. I wouldn't be too keen to hold it up as indicative of any change.
You MIGHT actually have a point - when Yanu' was in power he abused his office and his son became a feared Oligarch...
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..this is why Yanukovych, for example, needed to appear wealthy and to have benefited from his position.
Andrewfi, please don't lecture me about 'honesty ' while posting such tripe .. Yanu's salary was 15 k USD and the 'appearance of wealth' was due to him ensuring his family and cronies obtained lucrative contracts. He was a crook in Soviet times - and was far worse than Tymoshenko - who he got imprisoned
Unless he had done so he would have had no credibility to deal with the oligarchs
Poppycock, He was just greedy ... and Oleksandr - his elder son went on to win substantial govt. contracts for the 'family business' and became the most feared person in Ukraine.
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So we can put Moby in the pro-Ukraine camp, irrespective of facts.
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So we can put Moby in the pro-Ukraine camp, irrespective of facts.
You can put me where you like - irrespective of your 'facts'.... I'm 'pro' peaceful co-existence and working out differences. Not starting civil wars.
You conveniently forget that I have seen people dying and being ethically cleansed as a child and I was taught that the British 'played fair'.
Then I lived on an island that had seen civil war and was a pawn in the cold war.
My strap-line should have been a cluebat :laugh:
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It's doubtful Ukraine will ever be able to take control of the corruption.
Joe Biden issues warning to Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk over corruption in Ukraine
http://uatoday.tv/politics/joe-biden-issues-warning-to-poroshenko-and-yatsenyuk-over-corruption-in-ukraine-496669.html
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Hmmm - looks like the Obamunists strategy is to get off Putins back about East Ukraine and Crimea in exchange for Putin taking up the slack regarding Syria and ISIS/ISIL and the radical islamists invasion of Europa.
Why? Because the Obamunoist in Chief needs Hitlery Clintonista to win in 2016 to help him avoid war crimes and conflict of interest prosecutions when he can no longer hide behind executive privilege or affirmative action.
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Ex-Ukraine PM Tymoshenko's U.S. racketeering lawsuit dismissed
http://news.yahoo.com/ex-ukraine-pm-tymoshenkos-u-racketeering-lawsuit-dismissed-203433656.html
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President Poroshenko calls for Ukraine to join NATO
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/09/22/President-Poroshenko-calls-for-Ukraine-to-join-NATO/5061442933152/
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President Poroshenko calls for Ukraine to join NATO
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/09/22/President-Poroshenko-calls-for-Ukraine-to-join-NATO/5061442933152/
That aint happening anytime soon, the charter says you must be at peace with all your neighbours.
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President Poroshenko calls for Ukraine to join NATO
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/09/22/President-Poroshenko-calls-for-Ukraine-to-join-NATO/5061442933152/
That aint happening anytime soon, the charter says you must be at peace with all your neighbours.
It is like a health insurance pre existing condition clause. However the EU association agreement gives access to NATO across and on the territory of Ukraine without membership or the privileges of membership. This gave Russia significant cause for concern. I believe it was Putin who made this clear. He talked about how the agreement gave NATO (US) the ability to station missiles in the country which gave sufficient range and short enough flight time to be able to neutralise Russian defences which would overturn any current balance of power or deterrent.
These matters were not secrets, making the wording of the agreement a deliberate provocation to Russia.
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President Poroshenko calls for Ukraine to join NATO
That aint happening anytime soon, the charter says you must be at peace with all your neighbours.
..and a stable economy, fair legislative system and peaceful co-existence is exactly what her neighbour to the east 'seeks' until Ukraine 'comes to her senses' .... right... ?
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President Poroshenko calls for Ukraine to join NATO
That aint happening anytime soon, the charter says you must be at peace with all your neighbours.
..and a stable economy, fair legislative system and peaceful co-existence is exactly what her neighbour to the east 'seeks' until Ukraine 'comes to her senses' .... right... ?
I didn't know they were having difficulties with Kazakhstan.
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Looks like Poroshenko might be eyeing another outsider for a high ranking government position.
Disgraced ex-Polish FM Looking to Join Saakasvili on the Ukraine Gravy Train (Radoslaw Sikorski
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/disgraced-ex-polish-fm-looking-join-saakasvili-ukraine-gravy-train-radoslaw-sikorski/ri9897
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The stupidity keeps on happening. :coffeeread:
Kiev Oligarchs Ban 25 Russian Airlines
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/kiev-oligarchs-ban-25-russian-airlines/ri9916
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With reference to my post above about provocations.
The US is at it again - apparently planning to station nuclear ballistic missiles in Germany.
The Russians obviously understand this to NOT just be thought leaders giving it some jibber jabber and have repeated that should this happen that they will deploy Iskander defensive systems in Kaliningrad.
This is, if you look at a map, a serious thing. The Iskander would serve to deny the ability of German launched missiles to reach Russia. The same would be true of most of Europe. This is unlikely to be empty rhetoric, as we already know the Russian state and government tend to do that which they say they will do.
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The stupidity keeps on happening. :coffeeread:
Kiev Oligarchs Ban 25 Russian Airlines
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/kiev-oligarchs-ban-25-russian-airlines/ri9916
Another step in the decline into warlordism.
This is a pretty clear effort by Ukrainian business owners (oligarchs) to increase revenues to their pocket airlines. As a commenter in the thread on RI notes, the economic effect is clearly to the detriment of Ukraine given the relative values of the traffic.
For the business owners in Ukraine they might see an increase in their own carrier revenues. So, the people of Ukraine get even poorer and the slice of the national pie gets bigger for the already hyper wealthy and avaricious.
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The stupidity keeps on happening. :coffeeread:
Kiev Oligarchs Ban 25 Russian Airlines
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/kiev-oligarchs-ban-25-russian-airlines/ri9916
Another step in the decline into warlordism.
This is a pretty clear effort by Ukrainian business owners (oligarchs) to increase revenues to their pocket airlines. As a commenter in the thread on RI notes, the economic effect is clearly to the detriment of Ukraine given the relative values of the traffic.
For the business owners in Ukraine they might see an increase in their own carrier revenues. So, the people of Ukraine get even poorer and the slice of the national pie gets bigger for the already hyper wealthy and avaricious.
Please Andrew stop the hyperbole. But wait if Russia earlier does a move along the same lines that is fine and dandy. If Ukraine or the United States makes the same move that is evil.
But in fact the number of carriers that are Russian or Ukraine are in fact a low number. I doubt anyone presently is getting either rich or eating pie from these flights. The majority of so-called Ukraine 'pocket airlines' fly to destinations that are far more pleasant than Russia. The Russian flights tend to land badly.
If you want to use the train or bus between Russia (including Kalingrad) and Ukraine. Someone is earning money, big time.
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With reference to my post above about provocations.
The US is at it again - apparently planning to station nuclear ballistic missiles in Germany.
The Russians obviously understand this to NOT just be thought leaders giving it some jibber jabber and have repeated that should this happen that they will deploy Iskander defensive systems in Kaliningrad.
This is, if you look at a map, a serious thing. The Iskander would serve to deny the ability of German launched missiles to reach Russia. The same would be true of most of Europe. This is unlikely to be empty rhetoric, as we already know the Russian state and government tend to do that which they say they will do.
andrew
such weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing
have been there for quite some time now as you know , so why write DISHONESTLY as you did above ?
SX
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Almost half of Ukrainians surveyed blame Moscow for the conflict with Kiev
https://news.mail.ru/society/23412568/ (https://news.mail.ru/society/23412568/)
According to a study released on Thursday, 49% of respondents blame the conflict on Russia. A third of respondents believe that responsibility lies equally with both Kiev and Moscow. That Kiev is held responsible for the conflict, by 9% of respondents.
It was broken down to regions..
west and centre of Ukraine.. most of the population clearly puts the responsibility for the conflict in the Russian Federation (67% and 62%, respectively)
in the south - half of the residents (51%) believes that both states are equally responsible for the conflict.
In eastern Ukraine- responsibility for the conflict being Russia was 37 percent ..equal proportion of blame 39 percent
In the govt. controlled territories of Donbas, Kiev 41% of residents blame both countries, 24% blame Russia, 18% Ukraine.
Respondents were questioned about the chance for rapprochement with Russia. Half of the respondents (49%) believed that this process would not be in interests of the Ukrainian state, 30% hold the opposite view.
The survey was conducted from 22 to 27 July 2015. 2011 respondents were interviewed, aged 18 years, in all regions of Ukraine, except the territories not controlled by Kiev.
The theoretical margin of sampling error is 2.3%.
I guess the figures largely reflect the polarity of opinion.
That
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Ukraine in NATO would be declaration of war against Russia’
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316294-russia-ukraine-nato-war/
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Ukraine in NATO would be declaration of war against Russia’
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316294-russia-ukraine-nato-war/
Love the way Russia Today's articles bring out the comments from strange people who perpetuate stories run by Russia Today .. like USS Donald Cook - an Aegis class Missile Destroyer was rendered helpless by a new Russian system and much of the crew 'resigned' :chuckle:
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Mr Saakashvili goes to Odessa
A Georgian reformer tackles Ukraine’s real public enemy number one: corruption
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21667967-georgian-reformer-tackles-ukraines-real-public-enemy-number-one-corruption-mr-saakashvili-goes
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The real challenge in Ukraine would be to find officials that are not corrupt.
Yatsenyuk, allies of Poroshenko, Avakov targeted by corruption investigations
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/yatsenyuk-allies-of-poroshenko-avakov-targeted-by-corruption-investigations-398743.html
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Loud blast in Odessa damages Ukraine’s Security Service building
https://www.rt.com/news/316620-odessa-blast-security-service-ukraine/
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Dutch force the president to hold a non-binding referendum on Ukraine's association treaty with the EU.
http://russian.rt.com/article/119497#ixzz3n7NpXjb9
They got the name of the organizer wrong , it was geenstijl instead of telegraaf, but since they belong to the same corporation thats no biggie :)
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Dutch force the president to hold a non-binding referendum on Ukraine's association treaty with the EU.
http://russian.rt.com/article/119497#ixzz3n7NpXjb9
They got the name of the organizer wrong , it was geenstijl instead of telegraaf, but since they belong to the same corporation thats no biggie :)
oho, worthy of a thread of it's own
In English
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d2d9aab8-65a8-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html#axzz3n8plpX2a (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d2d9aab8-65a8-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html#axzz3n8plpX2a)
The Kremlin must be so pleased they don't have anything as democratic :chuckle:
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Another step in the right direction.
Contact Group on Ukraine Signs Donbass Weapons Pullout Agreement.
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20150929/1027746702/Donbass-Weapons-Pullout-Agreement.html
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There seems to be something of an alignment of intent, at least at a rhetorical level, between the external actors in the Ukraine silliness.
Hopefully that alignment will continue with pressuring the Kievan administration to cleave to the agreement they made in Belarus many months ago.
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There seems to be something of an alignment of intent, at least at a rhetorical level, between the external actors in the Ukraine silliness.
Hopefully that alignment will continue with pressuring the Kievan administration to cleave to the agreement they made in Belarus many months ago.
There is something out right offensive and repulsive to describe the situation as silliness.
Andy you are a ugly toad* when you look at how many citizens are dead, wounded and displaced because of actions in Moscow.
* But I understand why no one wants to kiss you.
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Ukraine rebel envoy says weapons pull-back could mean 'end of war'
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RU27Y20150930
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Avhdb, among the various forms of silinness we see displacement from people like you who choose to place onto others those things which they know belong elsewhere. Your few words above display two instances in 3 sentences.
Are you, like Moby, going for records in displaying evidence of your 'troubles'?
If you do not consider much that is happening in Ukraine to be idiotic, stupid or foolish then I am going to have to wonder about more than just your displacement issues.
Please check a dictionary before querying the word choices of a fluent user of English.
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Avhdb, among the various forms of silinness we see displacement from people like you who choose to place onto others those things which they know belong elsewhere. Your few words above display two instances in 3 sentences.
Are you, like Moby, going for records in displaying evidence of your 'troubles'?
If you do not consider much that is happening in Ukraine to be idiotic, stupid or foolish then I am going to have to wonder about more than just your displacement issues.
Please check a dictionary before querying the word choices of a fluent user of English.
Andrew, I would suggest that you take a long walk along the border of "Ukraine and Russia". You an start to the east of Kharkov and head south, lets see how silly you are than.
NB: If you desire members of RUA can start a PayPal account to fund your adventure, but we expect a trip report.
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Ukraine ceasefire respected, but peace process unlikely to conclude by end of year – Hollande
http://www.rt.com/news/317436-normandy-four-meeting-Paris/
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Would seem Putin has more ability to take control over situations in Ukraine than Poroshenko.
One can see who's respected.
Putin promised to ask Ukraine rebels to cancel vote: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-promised-ask-ukraine-rebels-cancel-vote-poroshenko-185724734.html
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Seems, Manny may need to review the 'bias' of the BBC / and start reading the Torgygraph newspaper, again - as they have 'upset' stopfake.org (http://stopfake.org)
In Russian only..
http://www.stopfake.org/fejki-o-kryme-v-state-the-telegraph/ (http://www.stopfake.org/fejki-o-kryme-v-state-the-telegraph/)
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People
Yulia Tymoshenko: ‘It won’t just be revolution this time but the end of Ukraine’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/yulia-tymoshenko-it-won-t-just-be-revolution-this-time-but-the-end-of-ukraine-a6683731.html
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Russia backs bigger OSCE mission in Ukraine
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0S40IJ20151010
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Russia backs bigger OSCE mission in Ukraine
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0S40IJ20151010
While it certainly seems that the OSCE have a less than even handed approach to their reporting an expanded role for the organisation certainly serves Russian interests.*
For that reason, if no other, I expect that the role of the OSCE will not be expanded.
*If unsure what I am getting to here just go read some of the OSCE site reports, they are on the OSCE website. If you understand how language is used to create an impression of a thing without saying the words then you will find the site reports to be little gems of their type.
In broad terms if the UAF do a 'bad thing' then the source of the bad thing is unclear. If the DPR/LPR forces might, possibly, have done a 'bad thing' then the guilt is absolutely firmly placed with the LPR/DPR as though no possible doubt could exist.
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Russia backs bigger OSCE mission in Ukraine
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0S40IJ20151010
While it certainly seems that the OSCE have a less than even handed approach to their reporting an expanded role for the organisation certainly serves Russian interests.*
Hmm that would be why their role is being upped - despite your prognosis..
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Russia may end up one day fighting Isis right next door.
Post-Maidan Ukrainians Eager to Help ISIS Kill Russians
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/post-maidan-ukrainians-eager-help-isis-kill-russians/ri10431
ISIS Now Recruiting in Kiev Junta-Run Ukraine
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/isis-now-recruiting-kiev-junta-run-ukraine/ri10441
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Russia backs bigger OSCE mission in Ukraine
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0S40IJ20151010
While it certainly seems that the OSCE have a less than even handed approach to their reporting an expanded role for the organisation certainly serves Russian interests.*
Hmm that would be why their role is being upped - despite your prognosis..
Has the number of OSCE monitors been increased from the current 465 toward the maximum currently allowed: 1000?
Saw nothing of that. Maybe you are just dreaming again.
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There is a dark side of Russia that always seems to slip between the cracks.
If you look at all the high profile people that have been murdered poisoned gone missing ect. Russia seems to have its own justice system that is not what one would expect in the 21st century.
Viktor Yushchenko: 'Every politician in Ukraine who turns to the West is in danger'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/viktor-yushchenko-every-politician-in-ukraine-who-turns-to-the-west-is-in-danger-a6694311.html
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Hmm that would be why their role is being upped - despite your prognosis..
Has the number of OSCE monitors been increased from the current 465 toward the maximum currently allowed: 1000?
Saw nothing of that. Maybe you are just dreaming again.
1/ The number of observers was already 85 more than you suggest..
2/ Even Sputnik knows there'll be even more observers - and that the Kremlin supports the increase..
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151012/1028377144/osce-ukraine-arms-withdrawal-monitoring.html (http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151012/1028377144/osce-ukraine-arms-withdrawal-monitoring.html)
''Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said last week that Moscow wanted the OSCE to increase the number of monitors in war-torn eastern Ukraine to a thousand.
The Kremlin said a bigger body of monitors was needed to oversee the implementation of an additional package of ceasefire accords that stipulated the withdrawal of tanks, mortars and artillery with a caliber of under 100mm from the line of contact.''
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Ukraine's $1 trillion demand from Russia shrinks to $46 billion
https://www.rt.com/business/318730-ukraine-legal-battle-russia/
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At least one city in Ukraine is prospering.
UKRAINE
Looking West: Lvov Models Itself As Ukraine's Future
http://www.rferl.mobi/a/ukraine-Lvov-elections-model-of-future/27323230.html
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There are very few reports in the western media about eastern Ukraine, most report there has been no fighting. Weapons are being pulled back, and the there is relative peace.
But if you read the reports coming from the separatists side, the Ukrainian military is daily in violation of the Minsk agreement.
After the elections, I have a feeling things might once again heat up.
Donetsk airport under the mortar shelling of Ukrainian fightersDonetsk airport under the mortar shelling of Ukrainian fighters
http://novorossia.today/donetsk-airport-under-the-mortar-shelling-of-ukrainian-fightersdonetsk-airport-under-the-mortar-shelling-of-ukrainian-fighters/
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My girlfriend's family lives in Lugansk and said it is returning to normal. Housing is beginning to sell again and people are trying to make repairs like they have not since the beginning of the war.
This is about a month ago and I understand it has gotten better from here.
Unless Putin gets bored with Syria, I do not see much of a chance of the war starting back.
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Donetsk airport under the mortar shelling of Ukrainian fightersDonetsk airport under the mortar shelling of Ukrainian fighters
http://novorossia.today/donetsk-airport-under-the-mortar-shelling-of-ukrainian-fightersdonetsk-airport-under-the-mortar-shelling-of-ukrainian-fighters/
The OSCE and the Ukrainian AND Russian officers assisting saw it differently..
''Kiev 23 October 2015
The SMM observed a generally calm situation in most areas in Donetsk region. At the Joint Centre for Control and Co-ordination (JCCC) observation post at Donetsk railway station (“Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”)-controlled, 6km north-west of Donetsk), the SMM heard a total of 38 explosions approximately 3-8km north-east, south and north-west of its position. Ukrainian Armed Forces and Russian Federation Armed Forces officers at the JCCC attributed one of these explosions, heard and seen by the SMM, to rubble clearing activities in the area of Donetsk airport (8km north-west of Donetsk).
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/194316 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/194316)
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The force was not with Chewbacca. :chuckle:
Chewbacca campaigns for Darth Vader in Ukraine, gets handcuffed by police (VIDEO)
https://www.rt.com/news/
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Ok, the candidate was well respected, but this goes to show Ukraine's lack of taking elections seriously.
One would think that with so much at stake, every effort would be made to move in the right direction.
Darth Vader, dead candidates what a joke.
Dead candidate wins local election in Ukraine's western region
http://uatoday.tv/society/dead-candidate-wins-local-election-in-ukraine-rsquo-s-western-region-524316.html
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Donetsk airport under the mortar shelling of Ukrainian fightersDonetsk airport under the mortar shelling of Ukrainian fighters
http://novorossia.today/donetsk-airport-under-the-mortar-shelling-of-ukrainian-fightersdonetsk-airport-under-the-mortar-shelling-of-ukrainian-fighters/
The OSCE and the Ukrainian AND Russian officers assisting saw it differently..
''Kiev 23 October 2015
The SMM observed a generally calm situation in most areas in Donetsk region. At the Joint Centre for Control and Co-ordination (JCCC) observation post at Donetsk railway station (“Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”)-controlled, 6km north-west of Donetsk), the SMM heard a total of 38 explosions approximately 3-8km north-east, south and north-west of its position. Ukrainian Armed Forces and Russian Federation Armed Forces officers at the JCCC attributed one of these explosions, heard and seen by the SMM, to rubble clearing activities in the area of Donetsk airport (8km north-west of Donetsk).
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/194316 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/194316)
Since they are now PROVEN lyars, I don't believe the OSCE anymore. Check their news on the Ukrainian elections, its all there.
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WAR CRIMES, Poroshenko Regime Attacks Civilian Areas !!
on: November 03, 2015WAR CRIMES , POROSHENKO REGIME ATTACKS CIVILIAN AREAS !!Kiev Junta forces have shelled Donetsk’s Kirovsky district overnight
http://novorossia.today/war-crimes-poroshenko-regime-attacks-civilian-areas/
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Markje,
please point out where the OSCE have been 'proven liars'
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The Ukrainian military is back at it again.
Military sitreps from the Militia of the DPR and LPR for 7th November 2015
http://novorossia.today/military-sitreps-from-the-militia-of-the-dpr-and-lpr-for-7th-november-2015/
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Markje,
please point out where the OSCE have been 'proven liars'
Man, have you fallen off a cliff somewhere and been in the hospital the past few weeks?
Ukrainian election :
Major problems in democracy noted by both Russian and Ukrainian newspapers.
OSCE: All went honky-dory, nothing to report perfectly fine elections.
Riiiiiight. Do the google yourself please
Mark.
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Hi Markje
http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/177906 (http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/177906)
Please explain where they do not point out many inconsistencies
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Ukrainian forces return heavy armament to the contact line in Donbass — DPR defense ministry
http://novorossia.today/ukrainian-forces-return-heavy-armament-to-the-contact-line-in-donbass-dpr-defense-ministry/
Looks like both sides are ready to fight once again. :coffeeread:
Ukrainian military reports surge of fighting in east as Moscow sends 44th unauthorized convoy into Donbas
http://www.Kievpost.com/content/Kiev-post-plus/ukrainian-military-reports-surge-of-fighting-in-east-as-moscow-sends-44th-unauthorized-convoy-into-donbas-401679.html
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Time to Arm Ukraine
http://www.diplomaticourier.com/2015/11/07/time-to-arm-ukraine/
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Hi Markje
http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/177906 (http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/177906)
Please explain where they do not point out many inconsistencies
Ah, it seems they have changed their report, after initially saying there were no inconsistancies. Lying and trying to cover it up now.
Good grief, the OSCE is falling even further in my standing now.
So, no more harping on about independent OSCE. And please next time , try to read news as it develops, as the internet is ever changing the facts after it becomes clear they were wrong.
Looks like they missed a spot in their coverup:
http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/194401
Ukraine local elections generally respected democratic process, but additional efforts needed to enhance public confidence, international observers say
There was no respect for the democratic process, the way it was carried out would fit better as a theatrical production than true elections.
3 huge cities not allowed to vote, because there were no voting ballots printed. (Eh what?).
1 city imprisoned the opponent parties even before the elections ended (Eh What?)
The same 1 city jailed any ukrainian reporters from news that tried to cover this (Eh what?).
And the list goes on, and on , and on.
Next time, I will quote the entire article here, so they can't cover up after the fact again.
From the same article: There was lots of confidence from the local population blablabalbla.. Ukrainian news sites report differently:
Yes, voter turnout was relatively high by western standards, averaging 46.6 percent across
Ukraine Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/r358250
High ? 46 percent is high? I call this a vote of no-confidence if over half of the people don't even bother to vote.
Mark.
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It would be in the best interest of Ukraine, if Kiev would place more efforts on establishing peace.
Proof of Russian involvement, won't change anything.
Russian officers on trial in Kiev after Donbass arrest
http://www.dw.com/en/russian-officers-on-trial-in-Kiev-after-donbass-arrest/a-18841691
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The prosecution will not get the desired proof anyway. It'll be a show trial but the evidence will not support the claim that the Russian army is active in Ukraine. All we will see is that Russians who have been in the army are in Ukraine, but that is no secret or surprise.
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The prosecution will not get the desired proof anyway. It'll be a show trial but the evidence will not support the claim that the Russian army is active in Ukraine. All we will see is that Russians who have been in the army are in Ukraine, but that is no secret or surprise.
What I find kinda odd is that the Ukrainian military is actively fighting in selected areas, but the western media mentions nothing.
Maybe it's because the western media so quickly took all the war hardened Russian military, and reported Putin sent em to Syria.
Now the western media can't claim of Russian involvement.
If the fighting keeps escalating, it will be interesting to see what stories will be dreamed up to place the Russian military back in Ukraine.
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I think there's several issues here. Firstly I'd suggest that the western media are controlled, on certain topics, to a greater degree than we might be comfortable with; some of the rest follows from that assumption.
Right now the US is still working to find a workable script for current events because they are no longer in control of creating reality.
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
From an article in the New York Times, the quote is generally accepted to have been from Karl Rove
I'd suggest that for a generation our media have been working with this paradigm. Relying upon the 'narratives' or 'spin' on events provided by thought leaders - from such outlets as White House press briefings, exclusion from which can lead to reporters losing their jobs and careers.
At this time there is a problem for western thought leaders. Russia has been telling the world for a year and a half that their troops are not present in Russia. Western thought leaders have asserted, with no evidence in support, that the converse is the case.
Sensible observers have noted that had Russia been present in Ukraine that the Ukraine situation would have been very different. It has been possible to marginalize this commentary - until now.
At this time Russia IS present in Syria. They have managed, in a very short space of time to effect a very significant change in the region both politically (possibly the most important aspect) and militarily. That change has been effected by a tiny force of just 50 aircraft plus the requisite ground based support and a few advisors aiding the Syrians with some new military technology and intelligence support.
Because of the nature of Russia's insertion into Syria, the degree of surprise and the openness of the Russian government about its activities the news/entertainment media and thought leaders were unable to conceal either the fact of the insertion or its effect upon the situation in the country.
Even the most complacent consumer of news/entertainment would be likely to make a connection between what is happening in Syria and what is NOT happening in Ukraine and they may make a judgement that if what is happening in Syria were to actually be happening in Ukraine that the situation there would be very different. The overall Ukrainian narrative would thus be called into question.
For this reason a choice has been made to not report events in Ukraine, to rely upon the very short attention span of the viewership, and to concentrate attention upon managing of information flows in respect of the Middle East with a view to building a consensus of support for further military intervention in the region even at the risk of direct involvement with Russia. That's not to say that I think that an American invasion of Syria is on the cards, but that people are being trained to accept the idea of al Qaida as allies. I have seen quite a lot of USAian reporting of the Syrian stuff where Russia is not mentioned at all.
At this time I find myself wondering who is pressing the button for Ukrainian forces stepping up their activity. Is this a US initiative as past offensives seem to have been or is it an organic effort, outside of the control of the political leaders in Kiev. One thing I am sure of though - the defence of the DPR/LPR will be as determined and effective as it has been before. The resources going into the Syrian effort will have had no effect upon the effectiveness of the RF military as a whole.
Whilst the RF forces are not configured for acting at remove from the Russian border the level of support in Syria is such a tiny part of Russia's capability that it is irrelevant to any other issues they face. The Syrian effort took perhaps 12 months to plan and mount, it is, to some degree, fire and forget right now - everyone involved knows what to do and they are doing it very effectively.
It might be that the single biggest effect of Russian actions may prove to be that the paradigm of manufactured reality as noted above is now at an end. This will be a very significant challenge to the leaders of the 'Free World' who are entirely accustomed to having the management of perceived reality almost entirely under their control. I strongly expect that Russian and Chinese actors (plus others trained in relevant techniques such as Iran and Iraq) will be working on events and 'reality management' that will challenge the activities of the USAian thought leaders and challenge the reality understood by news/entertainment consumers. Already we see that, just as happened with Al Jazeera during the Iraq 1 and 2 events, that US media consumers will look to RT and other more, apparently, realistic presenters of news and analysis.
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The corruption in Ukraine is endless.
How Ukraine’s Finance Chief Robbed US Taxpayers Blind
http://russia-insider.com/en/how-ukraines-finance-chief-got-rich/ri11086
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The corruption in Ukraine is endless.
How Ukraine’s Finance Chief Robbed US Taxpayers Blind
http://russia-insider.com/en/how-ukraines-finance-chief-got-rich/ri11086
That story is a whole bundle of fun.
Her thievery goes back years and, given the notes of the auditors of the accounts for the organisations she was fronting it is unlikely that her paymasters were unaware of her dishonesty. The question that sprang to my mind when I first knew about this, at the time she was anointed into her new role was this: why did the US foist this person upon Ukraine and into the role she was given?
It is kinda like giving a heroin addict the keys to a hospital pharmacy and placing him charge of its security.
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Another paid subscription sit, reports intense fighting, and the Ukrainian military is preparing for all out war.
Reuters reports as usual separatists were attacking the Ukrainian military.
Ukraine, separatists report rise in eastern fighting
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0T01D020151111?irpc=932
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Ukraine asks for handouts, because it can't afford to pay their bills, but they somehow have funded these warships.
What a waste of money.
Ukraine unveils new 'homegrown' warship
http://uatoday.tv/society/ship-532182.html
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Ukraine asks for handouts, because it can't afford to pay their bills, but they somehow have funded these warships.
What a waste of money.
Ukraine unveils new 'homegrown' warship
http://uatoday.tv/society/ship-532182.html
Tom Cat
while parts of a country remain under occupation - do you expect them to 'cut back ' ?
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Five soldiers killed in east, highest toll in two months: Ukraine military
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0T30O120151114
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Ukraine asks for handouts, because it can't afford to pay their bills, but they somehow have funded these warships.
What a waste of money.
Ukraine unveils new 'homegrown' warship
http://uatoday.tv/society/ship-532182.html
Tom Cat
while parts of a country remain under occupation - do you expect them to 'cut back ' ?
I could ask if you think spending large amount of money on warships is an wise investment?
Just down the shore, Russia has a real navy which makes anything Ukraine puts in the water pretty much useless.
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Reuters reports as usual separatists were attacking the Ukrainian military.
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0T01D020151111?irpc=932
Hmm,
Ukraine's military and pro-Russian separatists accused each other on Wednesday of escalating violence in eastern Ukraine
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This is not the action of military withdrawal.
Forcing civilians to dig trenches shows Ukrainian military has its own set of rules.
Poroshenko must be very proud of yet another low. (:)
Ukrainian military forced residents of the occupied locality to dig trenches
http://dninews.com/article/ukrainian-military-forced-residents-occupied-locality-dig-trenches
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Ukraine asks for handouts, because it can't afford to pay their bills, but they somehow have funded these warships.
What a waste of money.
Ukraine unveils new 'homegrown' warship
http://uatoday.tv/society/ship-532182.html
Those "warships" are little more than modified PT boats, that are turtles. They are narrow and exhibit an old fashioned hull design.
The weapon array displayed on the bow is almost antique. Bear in mind being built in or near Kiev they need to be able to travel the 11? locks/dams of the Dnieper to reach the Black Sea.
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Return to war in east Ukraine 'lamentable
http://uatoday.tv/news/return-to-war-in-east-ukraine-lamentable-536280.html
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Ukraine really has turned into a circus act.
Split Loyalties? Ukraine's Finance Minister Has Still Not Renounced Her US Citizenship
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/split-loyalties-ukraines-finance-minister-has-still-not-renounced-her-us-citizenship
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This is why it's a stupid idea to supply Ukraine with military hardware.
Surprise! ISIS Caught Buying Weapons in Ukraine
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/surprise-isis-caught-buying-weapons-ukraine/ri11321
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Ukraine really has turned into a circus act.
Split Loyalties? Ukraine's Finance Minister Has Still Not Renounced Her US Citizenship
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/split-loyalties-ukraines-finance-minister-has-still-not-renounced-her-us-citizenship
I believe that she has up to 2 years to resign her US citizenship. My best guess? She will resign her Ukrainian citizenship a matter of days before that deadline - unless the government in power at the time changes the law again to allow her, and other 'special cases' to retain dual nationality.
By the way: CLICK HERE! (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa)
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Ukraine really has turned into a circus act.
Split Loyalties? Ukraine's Finance Minister Has Still Not Renounced Her US Citizenship
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/split-loyalties-ukraines-finance-minister-has-still-not-renounced-her-us-citizenship
I believe that she has up to 2 years to resign her US citizenship. My best guess? She will resign her Ukrainian citizenship a matter of days before that deadline - unless the government in power at the time changes the law again to allow her, and other 'special cases' to retain dual nationality.
By the way: CLICK HERE! (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa)
An article from 2004 about democracy in Serbia, Belarus and other states? You happen to live in a country that was essentially financially modernised by massive influxes of cash from the EU. Its politicians taught about democracy by the EU and probably also by NGOs from the US.
In effect the countries in the article are where Estonia was 12 - 14 years ago. Some countries such as Georgia are progressing and in a few years might be where Estonia is now. Let's face it, if Estonia had failed to make the jump to democracy and became another Belarus you wouldn't be living there now. You're certainly not as brave as Eric.
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Poroshenko wanted more western observers, yet he didn't want Germany's legislators to see what was going on.
German legislators are under fire from Ukraine's government after visiting the country's war-stricken Donbass region to deliver humanitarian aid to a children's hospital.
Read more:
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20151122/1030546356/ukraine-donbass-german-humanitarian-mission.html
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Poroshenko wanted more western observers, yet he didn't want Germany's legislators to see what was going on.
German legislators are under fire from Ukraine's government after visiting the country's war-stricken Donbass region to deliver humanitarian aid to a children's hospital.
Read more:
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20151122/1030546356/ukraine-donbass-german-humanitarian-mission.html
I think that this is a timing issue. The Ukrainians are ramping up their offensive against the LPR/DPR to the point that even the OSCE has noticed. ;)
Now is not a good time for Germans to be visiting the eastern part of Ukraine where the reality does not match the narrative that Poroshenko and the Kievan regime might want to portray to the world.
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Poroshenko wanted more western observers, yet he didn't want Germany's legislators to see what was going on.
German legislators are under fire from Ukraine's government after visiting the country's war-stricken Donbass region to deliver humanitarian aid to a children's hospital.
Read more:
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20151122/1030546356/ukraine-donbass-german-humanitarian-mission.html
I think that this is a timing issue. The Ukrainians are ramping up their offensive against the LPR/DPR to the point that even the OSCE has noticed. ;)
Now is not a good time for Germans to be visiting the eastern part of Ukraine where the reality does not match the narrative that Poroshenko and the Kievan regime might want to portray to the world.
My own sources tell me that Rebel activity will resume in full somewhere in Januari if Kiev doesn't advance first.
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That might make sense because by then the implied deadlines for all actions that were committed to by the Kievan regime will have passed voiding the Minsk Agreement - I don't recall exactly the status of the extensions proposed by Putin and accepted by the LPR/DPR leadership though.
In the final analysis though the LPR/DPR will not get much done without enabling support from their neighbour to the east's support. Also, there's the question of what the objective of any offensive might be. They don't have the resources to go to Kiev - unless the Ukrainian army stages a coup against the regime so that leaves taking a bit more territory. I rather think that the current territory covered is not economically viable as it stands. They need power generation, for example - they currently buy power from the Kievan regime. So, absent progress with Minsk from the Kievans, a stable and kinda independent region is going to need to grow a little.
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Renewed Military Escalation? Sizeable Ukraine Troop Movements Near Border with Novorossiya
http://www.globalresearch.ca/renewed-military-escalation-sizeable-ukraine-troop-movements-near-border-with-novorossiya/5490470
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Poroshenko's boys are becoming very active again.
Uncontrolled Ukrainian fighters started violating the ceasefire regime on a news scale
http://novorossia.today/uncontrolled-ukrainian-fighters-started-violating-the-ceasefire-regime-on-a-news-scale/
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That might make sense because by then the implied deadlines for all actions that were committed to by the Kievan regime will have passed voiding the Minsk Agreement
biased - as usual ... the OSCE reports show non-compliance by Kiev and those seeking self-determination / independence / union with Russia - delete as appropriate.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/202331 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/202331)
The SMM continued to monitor the withdrawal and movement of heavy weapons. Neither “DPR” nor “LPR” members have yet provided the requested inventories or locations of designated permanent storage sites for these weapons as requested by the SMM on 16 October. The Ukrainian military authorities have also as of yet to provide such information. Nonetheless
''In relation to the implementation of the Addendum to the Package of measures, the SMM revisited Ukrainian Armed Forces and “DPR” permanent weapons storage sites whose locations corresponded with the withdrawal lines. The SMM noted that eight weapons were missing from the Ukrainian Armed Forces sites, and it was denied access to one site*. At the “DPR” permanent weapons storage sites all previously recorded weapons were present. However, in one of the sites the SMM noted the presence of anti-tank guns (MT-12, Rapira 100mm), which are heavy weapons that fall outside the scope of the Addendum and their presence at the site is in violation of the weapons’ respective withdrawal lines.''
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This is an informative, and well done video.
If you truly understand what took place in Ukraine, it's very difficult to support the Kiev agenda.
Russia-Ukraine war explained (VIDEO)
http://novorossia.today/russia-ukraine-war-explained-video/
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It's looking more and more like the Minsk agreement yet again will be tossed to the curb.
Ukraine's Right Sector nationalists deploy battalion near contact line — militia
http://tass.ru/en/world/839342
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Poroshenko is a real drama queen.
Dutch anti-Ukraine activists are helping Putin: Poroshenko
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0TF1ER20151126
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I suspect and I would look forward to Markje's thoughts the Dutch public and it is not unlike the Ukraine public and are weary of there politicians.
The politicians promise allot and deliver next to nothing in results. The public sees the sink hole of Greece and worries about other PIGS, but Brussels (EU) is uninterested in reality.
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I suspect and I would look forward to Markje's thoughts the Dutch public and it is not unlike the Ukraine public and are weary of there politicians.
The politicians promise allot and deliver next to nothing in results. The public sees the sink hole of Greece and worries about other PIGS, but Brussels (EU) is uninterested in reality.
Well, since Geenpeil already got several parties committed to actually voting with the results of the Referendum, it seems they now hold the majority vote as well in the 2nd chamber (89 votes, out of 150 is a majority).
So my guess is Dutch President Rutte asked Poroshenko to do some PR for Ukraine whilst he is in country of NL.
Since 99% of the Dutch know Ukraine only from "stories of the deep" and the other 1% has seen it only during that ww-soccer-tournament, they won't make an educated vote.
I am also guessing that people who know nothing will vote "no" as a protest against EU as well, making people who know about Ukraine + protest voters a majority-no vote before the voting has even begun.
Bad news for Rutte piling up, because this was supposed to be a consulting-public referendum only which they could 'ignore' if they wanted to. Unfortunately the opposition already declared from day 1 they would respect the outcome and now some non-opposition parties and unaligned parties do the same, which leaves only the 2 major parties still voting 'yes'.
Geenpeil also activly combats the "small" government budget to arrange these elections and calling Cities out on their responsibility. Most cities acted with honor (As did my own city) and said they would cough up the money themselves. (which is another nail in Rutte's coffin)
Looks like the politicians in NL are really becoming scared of this referendum and everyhing is being done to sabotage them.
Mark.
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Ukrainians do have some bitter memories of Russia past.
Ukraine remembers victims of Stalin-era famine
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-remembers-victims-stalin-era-famine-190634694.html
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Only the best was sent by Obama, to aid our Ukrainian friends. (:)
On Ukraine’s front lines, U.S.-supplied equipment is falling apart
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/11/30/on-ukraines-frontlines-u-s-supplied-equipment-is-falling-apart/
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Only the best was sent by Obama, to aid our Ukrainian friends. (:)
On Ukraine’s front lines, U.S.-supplied equipment is falling apart
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/11/30/on-ukraines-frontlines-u-s-supplied-equipment-is-falling-apart/
One way to recycle old kit and get to replace crap with new stuff for US forces AND to be able to claim to be providing aid. I bet that the values placed on the rubbish sent over was based upon new and replacement costs, not the written down value of the obsolete stuff actually sent.
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Poroshenko's failure to act on corruption, will eventually stop the handouts to Ukraine.
IMF Stops Ukraine Loan, Takes Sides in Oligarch Bank Contest
http://russia-insider.com/en/imf-stops-ukraine-loan-takes-sides-oligarch-bank-contest/ri11628
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The Ukrainian military has been very busy lately.
Not just concentrating troops in selected areas.
They also opened fire on a school while children were present.
The Minsk agreement is in the final week's without much hope of settling the conflict.
Comes the first of the year all hell could break out
Ukraine concentrates military groupings on border with Crimea, Transdniestria — Poroshenko
http://tass.ru/en/world/841673
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Ukrainian military amassing somewhere seems all blustering and hot-air. If they are truly trying to take Crimea by force, they will meet with a lot more resistance than the Russians did who went in without a shot fired.
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Ukrainian military amassing somewhere seems all blustering and hot-air. If they are truly trying to take Crimea by force, they will meet with a lot more resistance than the Russians did who went in without a shot fired.
Still pretending no shots were fired and no one died .... :'(
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Ukrainian military amassing somewhere seems all blustering and hot-air. If they are truly trying to take Crimea by force, they will meet with a lot more resistance than the Russians did who went in without a shot fired.
Markje your are completely right. Russia with the worlds largest Nuclear weapon supply would destroy the Human race before he gives up Crimea. Not going to happen soon. But now Putin has four wars on going. Moldavia, Georgia, Ukraine, and now Syria. Russia just recently expanded the border in Georgia to take in a gas pipe line of non Russian gas. I guess one day Putin will want transit fees or be able to cut off someone gas if they do something he does not like.
Russia now has increase security cost mainly in Muslim parts of the country. So their is also a more of an internal war.
Then their is the financial war with the west. He is going to destroy the dollar. Then he has European sanction. The new cold war with Turkey.
What Putin is counting on is the 2017 Russia is going to have a recovery and be able to afford all of this. The trouble is 2017 not likely to be a better year for any country including Russia.
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Ukrainian military amassing somewhere seems all blustering and hot-air. If they are truly trying to take Crimea by force, they will meet with a lot more resistance than the Russians did who went in without a shot fired.
Markje your are completely right. Russia with the worlds largest Nuclear weapon supply would destroy the Human race before he gives up Crimea. Not going to happen soon. But now Putin has four wars on going. Moldavia, Georgia, Ukraine, and now Syria. Russia just recently expanded the border in Georgia to take in a gas pipe line of non Russian gas. I guess one day Putin will want transit fees or be able to cut off someone gas if they do something he does not like.
Russia now has increase security cost mainly in Muslim parts of the country. So their is also a more of an internal war.
Then their is the financial war with the west. He is going to destroy the dollar. Then he has European sanction. The new cold war with Turkey.
What Putin is counting on is the 2017 Russia is going to have a recovery and be able to afford all of this. The trouble is 2017 not likely to be a better year for any country including Russia.
I was talking more about the 'local' population to Crimea. They welcomed the Russians in, but will not accept Ukraine back in.
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Can't help but to wonder what exactly Ukraine expects from Russia?
Kiev says they want to be independent from Russia, yet they seem put out when Russia makes moves to give Ukraine what they want.
Poroshenko says Ukraine will take ‘adequate decision’ in case of Russia’s food embargo
http://tass.ru/en/world/841910
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Can't help but to wonder what exactly Ukraine expects from Russia?
Kiev says they want to be independent from Russia, yet they seem put out when Russia makes moves to give Ukraine what they want.
Poroshenko says Ukraine will take ‘adequate decision’ in case of Russia’s food embargo
http://tass.ru/en/world/841910
This is not about being independent. Ukraine is a tool to cause irritation and stress to Russia.
Originally the intent was to get Ukraine tucked up with the EU and NATO with a particular emphasis upon getting Russia's Black Sea Fleet out of Sevastopol. The Pentagon had even started issued RFQs for work to be done in the city!
When it became obvious that the whole EU/NATO association thing was not going to happen the secondary goal was to cause chaos.
When one considers what is happening, and what has happened in Ukraine since about April of last year then one can see the rationale of what is going on there. So, that means that anything Russia does, whether it supports Ukraine's people or not will be 'wrong'. Look at the power outage - firstly it was an act of sabotage, condemned by the government, now it has become accepted as being a blockade upon Crimea. Do you really think that the purpose actually changed? The sabotage story and the 'delays' in getting power on were simply to string Russia and the Crimean people along in the hope (unrealised) of extending the disruption by fooling Russia and the Crimean people into waiting for repairs that would never happen.
The same pattern played out with regard to the food blockade. Firstly it is an act of a few hotheaded nationalists, then we find that it is actually Kievan policy.
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When one considers what is happening, and what has happened in Ukraine since about April of last year then one can see the rationale of what is going on there. So, that means that anything Russia does, whether it supports Ukraine's people or not will be 'wrong'. Look at the power outage - firstly it was an act of sabotage, condemned by the government, now it has become accepted as being a blockade upon Crimea. Do you really think that the purpose actually changed? The sabotage story and the 'delays' in getting power on were simply to string Russia and the Crimean people along in the hope (unrealised) of extending the disruption by fooling Russia and the Crimean people into waiting for repairs that would never happen.
The same pattern played out with regard to the food blockade. Firstly it is an act of a few hotheaded nationalists, then we find that it is actually Kievan policy.
And each of those actions, makes Crimea grow stronger ties with Russia.
- Russian infrastructure
- Russian mentality-swap
- Kiev dislike grows stronger each time.
I won't be surprised if Ukrainians in the future will pay more for tourism in Crimea than any other nationality.
I saw some English menu's in restaurant had almost double prices compared to Russian ones. I can expect that Ukrainian language menus would also be more expensive than Russians.
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Markje, the strength of the ties is a part of the 'stress'!
Remember that the Russian government and state had no wish or intention of having Crimea as part of Russia.
Each of those ties is real, and for Crimeans it is great. For Russia the cost is huge and the cost in terms of all relevant resources is huge. Many, many good minds and bodies are being distracted dealing with the issues related to Ukraine who would otherwise be working on the economy, central Asia, Syria, the Caucasus etc. etc. etc.
Chaos is the backup plan, always!
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Remember that the Russian government and state had no wish or intention of having Crimea as part of Russia.
:ROFL:
Meanwhile, in the real world .. The Russian Govt. was quite happy to take advantage of Maidan, the popular removal of Yanu' to create the 'fascist threat' ..
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Meanwhile, in the real world .. The Russian Govt. was quite happy to take advantage of Maidan, the popular removal of Yanu' to create the 'fascist threat' ..
As we all know, they responded to the actions of interlopers.
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Amazing how gullible you guys are.
I don't believe Ukraine is innocent in many of the goings on.
But Russia is far from this pure little angel doing no wrong, that many here portray. Russia got caught messing in another countries business, now they
have and are taking everything they can, by any means they can.
How many they kill means nothing, how they get it don't matter.
Yet on the other hand you will bash the US or anyone else who is or has
done this same thing.
Keep them rose colour glasses on (:)
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Ukrainian military amassing somewhere seems all blustering and hot-air. If they are truly trying to take Crimea by force, they will meet with a lot more resistance than the Russians did who went in without a shot fired.
Markje your are completely right. Russia with the worlds largest Nuclear weapon supply would destroy the Human race before he gives up Crimea. Not going to happen soon. But now Putin has four wars on going. Moldavia, Georgia, Ukraine, and now Syria. Russia just recently expanded the border in Georgia to take in a gas pipe line of non Russian gas. I guess one day Putin will want transit fees or be able to cut off someone gas if they do something he does not like.
Russia now has increase security cost mainly in Muslim parts of the country. So their is also a more of an internal war.
Then their is the financial war with the west. He is going to destroy the dollar. Then he has European sanction. The new cold war with Turkey.
What Putin is counting on is the 2017 Russia is going to have a recovery and be able to afford all of this. The trouble is 2017 not likely to be a better year for any country including Russia.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? There is a war in Moldova going on?? Shit I better go call father in law he's there this week, wonder why we hadn't heard from him. Probably been shot :Zzzzsleep:
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Amazing how gullible you guys are.
Gullible?! You're being far too kind.
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As we all know, they responded to the actions of interlopers.
:laugh:
'as we know' ...
Moscow, saw that Yanu's days were numbered and started taking up the threat of 'fascism'... spreading polarisation ..Perhaps you spend too much time talking to those with the same, one-sided, selective agenda...to be objective....
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At the time the second Minsk agreement was signed the numbers were around 6,800 dead. Doesn't seem like things were as quiet as the western media claims.
Ukraine conflict has left more than 9,000 dead, says UN
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/ukraine-conflict-9000-dead-says-un
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Ukrainian military amassing somewhere seems all blustering and hot-air. If they are truly trying to take Crimea by force, they will meet with a lot more resistance than the Russians did who went in without a shot fired.
Markje your are completely right. Russia with the worlds largest Nuclear weapon supply would destroy the Human race before he gives up Crimea. Not going to happen soon. But now Putin has four wars on going. Moldavia, Georgia, Ukraine, and now Syria. Russia just recently expanded the border in Georgia to take in a gas pipe line of non Russian gas. I guess one day Putin will want transit fees or be able to cut off someone gas if they do something he does not like.
Russia now has increase security cost mainly in Muslim parts of the country. So their is also a more of an internal war.
Then their is the financial war with the west. He is going to destroy the dollar. Then he has European sanction. The new cold war with Turkey.
What Putin is counting on is the 2017 Russia is going to have a recovery and be able to afford all of this. The trouble is 2017 not likely to be a better year for any country including Russia.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? There is a war in Moldova going on?? Shit I better go call father in law he's there this week, wonder why we hadn't heard from him. Probably been shot :Zzzzsleep:
He thinks there is one in Georgia too, don't tell Maxx. :-X
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At the time the second Minsk agreement was signed the numbers were around 6,800 dead. Doesn't seem like things were as quiet as the western media claims.
Ukraine conflict has left more than 9,000 dead, says UN
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/ukraine-conflict-9000-dead-says-un
Most anyone in Ukraine will say that number is far higher.
Officials trying to keep the number as low as possible.
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At the time the second Minsk agreement was signed the numbers were around 6,800 dead. Doesn't seem like things were as quiet as the western media claims.
Ukraine conflict has left more than 9,000 dead, says UN
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/ukraine-conflict-9000-dead-says-un
Most anyone in Ukraine will say that number is far higher.
Officials trying to keep the number as low as possible.
Yes, trying to shield the US-backed junta in Ukraine. The same US that is ignoring the criminality of Turkey's leadership in their dealings with the US-created ISIS.
If fact, when you look at pretty much any trouble spot in the world, there is one common denominator; a nation whose fingerprints are all over everything.
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As we all know, they responded to the actions of interlopers.
:laugh:
'as we know' ...
Moscow, saw that Yanu's days were numbered and started taking up the threat of 'fascism'... spreading polarisation ..Perhaps you spend too much time talking to those with the same, one-sided, selective agenda...to be objective....
The same wonderful fascists that stole some paintings from a Dutch museum we are now trying to get back? Ahhh right, no its just a threat, they didn't do anything important, just steal a bunch of paintings worth millions
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I never said anything about the US and what they say.
For clarification, I meant Ukraine officials.
I don't post much anymore on what my wife reads or friends
who live their tell me. I don't have links to back it up and most here
jump all over it, as it does not fit their narrative.
I tend to believe people living it versus anything said in any media.
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Who would have thought, Biden and Poroshenko could waste so much time.
The article mentioned since the regime change the United states has given Ukraine well over 700 million. I m wondering what the total amount Ukraine has received from various sources?
Biden: ‘More time talking to Ukraine president than my wife
https://www.rt.com/news/325108-biden-poroshenko-ukraine-calls/
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Talking with that jackass was a waste of time. When he gets his hands on the next tranche, there will be another punitive campaign, followed by thousands of additional Darwin awards. It's not all bad, though; eventually, the DUBs will realize that they have been fighting the wrong enemy.
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I tend to believe people living it versus anything said in any media.
Amen to that.
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The same wonderful fascists that stole some paintings from a Dutch museum we are now trying to get back? Ahhh right, no its just a threat, they didn't do anything important, just steal a bunch of paintings worth millions
Could you please explain your side-show comment with links to what on earth you are referring ?
IF it is to deflect from Moscow managing to far out with 3 neighbours - so far - it failed ...
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The same wonderful fascists that stole some paintings from a Dutch museum we are now trying to get back? Ahhh right, no its just a threat, they didn't do anything important, just steal a bunch of paintings worth millions
Could you please explain your side-show comment with links to what on earth you are referring ?
IF it is to deflect from Moscow managing to far out with 3 neighbours - so far - it failed ...
Source : http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2015/12/weet_je_wie_ook_al_zijn_kunst_bij_elkaar_roofde.html
Headline: Ukrainian nazi's try to extort Dutch government with stolen art.
Now we know what the Ukrainian president Poroshenko was really doing in Netherlands last week, except try to sell his own chocolate and make threathening language against our own democracy. He came for a dark political joust on the top-level with Dutch stolen art that has surfaced in the posession of the Ukrainian government. ( http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/24840112/__Roofkunst_op_slagveld__.html ). No less than 24 paintings of our cultural heritage, which have been stolen in 2005 from the Westfries museum of art, are now in posession of "ultra-right militia" (read: neonazi's) that have direct ties to the Ukrainian government in Kiev. Poro and his lackeys are trying to silence this culture-crime, but in the meantime they try to extort Netherlands-government for millions of Euro's to return these paintings. The westfries museum, which contains a list of all stolen art ( http://i.imgur.com/NIEyDq2.jpg ) , does not wish to play ball. In the video shown, the owner of the Museum Ad Geerdink explains clear as day that these are our paintings, belonging in his museum and that they should not be used as an extortion device. QUOTE: "To everyone in the Ukraine who says they want to defend the European values, I would like to say: make sure that these pieces of art return to the rightful owner and that is the Westfries Museum in Hoorn, in the Netherlands!"
European values? Good luck with that, those art-robbers belong to the nazi party Svoboda and have 6 seats in the rada of Ukraine. This is an extremely inconvenient fact for Koenders and Rutte. Anyone still want that EU-association-treaty (with visa-free travel) with Ukraine?
There's lots more in the original, complete with links and source material, you can do the rest of the googling and translating yourself.
(and this has been in all major newspapers , geenstijl, telegraaf, ad, trouw, volkskrant ....)
Mark.
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The same wonderful fascists that stole some paintings from a Dutch museum we are now trying to get back? Ahhh right, no its just a threat, they didn't do anything important, just steal a bunch of paintings worth millions
Could you please explain your side-show comment with links to what on earth you are referring ?
IF it is to deflect from Moscow managing to far out with 3 neighbours - so far - it failed ...
That Moscow was completely right, when it said fascist terrorism in Ukrainian government. See my other post for full links, quotes and 1 translated news article.
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Funny how the chosen few are cashing in on Ukraine. But the United states government, and western media wants you to believe Russia and Putin were to blame.
Biden Lectures Ukraine on Corruption While His Son Is Reaping Rewards From It
http://russia-insider.com/en/us-will-never-accept-crimea-russia-says-biden/ri11763
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That Moscow was completely right, when it said fascist terrorism in Ukrainian government. See my other post for full links, quotes and 1 translated news article.
So, let's get this right ... you are using the theft of NL works of art to blame the whole govt of Ukraine ?
You do know that Russia has acquired the works of many artists that are actually owned by families that had them confiscated in 1917 by the Bolsheviks .... when many of them came to London - the families threatened to use the UK Courts to get them back - they have been trying for generations - and the UK had to assure Moscow that they would not be seized - to allow the exhibition to go ahead..
So, based on your 'standard' should we label all the current Moscow govt, negatively, too ?
Any time you wish to address the actual point I made - welcome... :coffeeread:
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U.S. and Russia trade accusations at U.N. over Ukraine conflict
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0TU2Q120151211
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More news, perhaps rumours, that Ukrainians and maybe Georgians will be able to travel to the EU visa free. The idea of Ukrainians being able to travel to the EU visa free has been circulating for the last year and keeps getting pushed back. Will it happen before 2016, in 2016 or later?
I'm sure Putin would be absolutely livid if Ukrainians were able to travel to the EU visa free but Russians still required visas.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-14/eu-should-grant-kosovo-visa-free-travel?cmpid=yhoo.headline
http://www.politico.eu/article/ukrainians-to-travel-visa-free-in-the-eu-by-2016/
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151210/1031544177/ukraine-visa-free-regime-promises.html
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That Moscow was completely right, when it said fascist terrorism in Ukrainian government. See my other post for full links, quotes and 1 translated news article.
So, let's get this right ... you are using the theft of NL works of art to blame the whole govt of Ukraine ?
You do know that Russia has acquired the works of many artists that are actually owned by families that had them confiscated in 1917 by the Bolsheviks .... when many of them came to London - the families threatened to use the UK Courts to get them back - they have been trying for generations - and the UK had to assure Moscow that they would not be seized - to allow the exhibition to go ahead..
So, based on your 'standard' should we label all the current Moscow govt, negatively, too ?
Any time you wish to address the actual point I made - welcome... :coffeeread:
The government body of 1917 does not exist anymore and has no power in this world.
Its like blaming Nazi atrocities on the current German government.
Fail.
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That Moscow was completely right, when it said fascist terrorism in Ukrainian government. See my other post for full links, quotes and 1 translated news article.
So, let's get this right ... you are using the theft of NL works of art to blame the whole govt of Ukraine ?
..and that anyone would still be suggesting Ukraine is run by - or has a majority of far right representation - is being disingenuous... The fascist vote has been c. 2 percent - with a max representation in the cabinet at 25 percent.
You do know that Russia has acquired the works of many artists that are actually owned by families that had them confiscated in 1917 by the Bolsheviks .... when many of them came to London - the families threatened to use the UK Courts to get them back - they have been trying for generations - and the UK had to assure Moscow that they would not be seized - to allow the exhibition to go ahead..
So, based on your 'standard' should we label all the current Moscow govt, negatively, too ?
Any time you wish to address the actual point I made - welcome... :coffeeread:
The government body of 1917 does not exist anymore and has no power in this world.
Its like blaming Nazi atrocities on the current German government.
Fail.
As you WELL know, the Russian Federation took the reins of the former USSR and continues to claim these works of arts that are owned by families - confiscated by the Bolsheviks.
Germany managed to sort out property 'confiscated' by the Soviet controlled 'east Germany'
My point is therefore still valid ... If you consider the Ukraine govt is responsible - then isn't the Russian govt liable to hand back the confiscated works ?
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It's insane how many countries are throwing money at Ukraine.
It's always loaned to Ukraine, but ask Russia how easy it is to collect when the time comes.
Poland to give Ukraine EUR 1 bln loan - Poroshenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/poland-to-give-ukraine-eur-1-bln-loan-poroshenko-554465.html
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Hope for Ukraine the west will be able to keep giving em handouts. Things are going to get a bit more expensive.
Trade War Escalates Between Russia and Ukraine
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/17/world/europe/trade-war-escalates-between-russia-and-ukraine.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
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Democracy in action.
Kiev court bans Communist Party in Ukraine
https://www.rt.com/news/326163-kiev-bans-communist-party/
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Not that communist party of Union recognises that the Soviet Union broke up or that Ukraine exists as an independent state....
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WORLD
PUTIN’S WAR IN UKRAINE SLOWLY RUMBLES ON
http://www.newsweek.com/putins-war-ukraine-slowly-rumbles-406444
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Not that communist party of Union recognises that the Soviet Union broke up or that Ukraine exists as an independent state....
If you were to list all things russian being outlawed, or banned in Ukraine, the list would be fairly long.
As anti Russian mania runs through the Ukrainian government, Putin might have an excuse to send in troops to protect the Russian population.
Poroshenko is trying anyway possible to provoke confrontation.
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Hardly a trade war escalation. This outcome was inevitable and pre-announced as a consequence of the refusals of the EU and Ukraine to sort out how to manage trade between the two customs unions.
The clue is in the name here. A customs union is just that. A few weeks ago I shared a useful document on the forum which discussed customs unions and the effects of not managing trade across the borders between the two unions.
This is certainly not something to blame on the EEU or Russia because they made it clear that they sought a managed solution. Ukraine and the EU chose this outcome by not engaging in the required management process.
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Wonder if they will wait until after the new year celebration, or take advantage of the holidays to make larger gains?
Most sources predict full fighting to resume by the beginning of January.
Media claim volunteer battalions are getting prepared for offensive in Donbas
http://tass.ru/en/world/845802
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What a difference a day makes.
Ukraine and pro-Russia rebels reach 'New Year' truce
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-announces-truce-pro-russia-rebels-185102425.html
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So much for a truce.
Ukrainian army shelled Spartak village in Donbass for over 10 hours -
http://tass.ru/en/world/847138
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Does Ukraine have any legal rights in this matter?
Ukraine says Crimea vintage wine sale at Massandra illegal
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35198065
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Does not look like Ukraine is making much progress with corruption control.
Corruption in Ukraine is so bad, a Nigerian prince would be embarrassed
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/12/30/corruption-in-ukraine-is-so-bad-a-nigerian-prince-would-be-embarrassed-2/
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Looks like Kiev has hired a new group of mercenaries.
Hundreds of Subversives Speaking Turkish, Arabic Infiltrate Donbass
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20151231/1032556958/turkish-arabic-mercenaries-ukraine.html
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What Russia's been doing in Ukraine since you stopped paying attention
http://theweek.com/articles/587241/what-russias-been-doing-ukraine-since-stopped-paying-attention
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Major gas pipeline explodes in Ukraine's Transcarpathian region (updated)
http://uatoday.tv/news/major-gas-pipeline-explodes-in-ukraine-s-transcarpathian-region-564940.html
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Originally I thought this was going to be Ukrainian propaganda, but the OSCE website confirms the incident.
Rebels keep OSCE monitors under arrestArmed Donbas rebels searched the OSCE mission car in Horlivka, the OSCE Jan. 8 report runs
http://zik.ua/en/news/2016/01/09/rebels_keep_osce_monitors_under_arrest_660993
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/215196
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If this is Ukrainian night life, count me out! :sick0012:
Kiev bar stages execution of Russian pilot as part of ‘stab in the back’ theme party (VIDEO)
https://www.rt.com/news/328476-russian-pilot-execution-kiev/
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Saakashvili Commits High Treason Right in Front of the Cameras (Video)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/mishiko-supreme-commander-saakashvili-commits-high-treason-right-front-cameras-video
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Saakashvili Commits High Treason Right in Front of the Cameras (Video)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/mishiko-supreme-commander-saakashvili-commits-high-treason-right-front-cameras-video
I think you are confused TC ... this is the viewpoint of Vesti.ru - Kremlin owned - and appearing in writing for an organisation''s website that has been accused of being sponsored by an Kremlin supporting Oligarch
In is therefore 'hardly' the view from the Ukrainian side ... :coffeeread:
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Lavrov repeat the Kremlin fib that the Budapest Treaty wasn't ' broken' by the use of RU military to create the circumstances - ie no UA Control - for the 'referendum'
http://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-lavrov-lies-about-russia-s-budapest-memorandum-obligation-to-ukraine/ (http://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-lavrov-lies-about-russia-s-budapest-memorandum-obligation-to-ukraine/)
Mr Lavrov, thinks that not using nukes was the extent of Russia's promise... so 'no breach'...
I guess this must be for domestic audiences - as the FACTS of the treaty stated that Russia,
''guarantee Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. Point one says that Russia reaffirms its commitment to “respect the independence, sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine”. In Point two the Kremlin pledged to “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine and that none of its weapons will ever be used against Ukraine.''
The line used by the Kremlin is that the 'illegal' removal of Yanu' - who ran way - helped BY Russia made any agreement 'void' - even though two subsequent elections demonstrated the support of the UA voters - who could vote..
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Saakashvili Commits High Treason Right in Front of the Cameras (Video)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/mishiko-supreme-commander-saakashvili-commits-high-treason-right-front-cameras-video
I think you are confused TC ... this is the viewpoint of Vesti.ru - Kremlin owned - and appearing in writing for an organisation''s website that has been accused of being sponsored by an Kremlin supporting Oligarch
In is therefore 'hardly' the view from the Ukrainian side ... :coffeeread:
And how does this deminish the fact, that saakashvili put a map of all ukrainian military movements in plain view of a camera on video?
Thats high treason, they're right to report it.
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Saakashvili Commits High Treason Right in Front of the Cameras (Video)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/mishiko-supreme-commander-saakashvili-commits-high-treason-right-front-cameras-video
I think you are confused TC ... this is the viewpoint of Vesti.ru - Kremlin owned - and appearing in writing for an organisation''s website that has been accused of being sponsored by an Kremlin supporting Oligarch
In is therefore 'hardly' the view from the Ukrainian side ... :coffeeread:
Moby, had I posted this link in another thread, would the validity of the article change?
The reason I posted here is because Saakashvili will be vying for position, which is PM of Ukraine. This directly effects Ukrainian people, so from the Ukrainian view point Saakashvili might be a liability.
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The Ukrainian army took the matter seriously enough to cause them to dismiss the commander who displayed the materials on TV. Of course the matter is public knowledge in Ukraine, that's what happens when stuff is shown on TV.
I am sure that the military would have taken action against Saakashvili if it were within their power to do so. Other stakeholders will have seen the stupidity of the whole affair and factored the event into their thinking.
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The Ukrainian army took the matter seriously enough to cause them to dismiss the commander who displayed the materials on TV. Of course the matter is public knowledge in Ukraine, that's what happens when stuff is shown on TV.
I am sure that the military would have taken action against Saakashvili if it were within their power to do so. Other stakeholders will have seen the stupidity of the whole affair and factored the event into their thinking.
The video was also shown on the BBC, and on its webpages
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Moby, had I posted this link in another thread, would the validity of the article change?
No.. but the thread is supposed to represent feelings from a UA perspective...rather than how the Kremlin backed news outlet ri quoted... Yes ?
The reason I posted here is because Saakashvili will be vying for position, which is PM of Ukraine. This directly effects Ukrainian people, so from the Ukrainian view point Saakashvili might be a liability.
No... that might be how you interpret things... if thinking in one dimensional, pro Kremlin terms..
Those supporting the Kremlin's away games in UA WANT Saakashvilli to fail...he is mates with Poroshenko..
I felt that your choosing to post it here...rather than the 'troubles in UA...' thread was 'interesting' and wanted your reasoning!
.
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‘Wrong' Maidan: Ukraine demands that France’s Canal+ TV take hard-hitting documentary off air
https://www.rt.com/news/330836-ukraine-france-maidan-documentary/
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^ God forbid that the rest of the world should know about the depth of Maidan stupidity!
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It seems that Putin secretly admires America and the American people. :)
excerpt
"When asked what he admires about America, Putin said that what he likes most is “the creativity.”
“Creativity when it comes to your tackling problems. Their openness – openness and open-mindedness – because it allows them to unleash the inner potential of their people. And thanks to that, America has attained such amazing results in developing their country,” Putin said. “America exerts enormous influence on the situation in the world as a whole.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/preview-russian-president-vladimir-putin-interview-with-charlie-rose-60-minutes/
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Thank you Westcoast. I haven't had a good laugh in a long time.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
They just cover up the insignias and claim they are not Russian and are in the pictures wit5h the other pro Russian forces. The locals know when they are there because the real Russian forces are really nice and the local pro Russian troop are mainly a bunch of bandits.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
Tom Cat how do you know that those pro Russian rebels are in fact rebels? Couldn't they be Russian forces wearing rebel uniforms and using rebel forces equipment which was probably Russian military equipment prior to a quick paint job?
The border in that area is so porous there is no way to adequately monitor it. Disguising Russian forces as rebel forces is simple and impossible to detect unless all involved get incredibly careless.
As Putin himself was quoted as saying there are special forces in Ukraine doing military matters. That doesn't mean these special forces are in Russian military uniforms or using Russian military vehicles. They could be disguised as anyone using any mode of transportation. As long as they crossed the border undetected they'd be impossible to track via satellite.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
They just cover up the insignias and claim they are not Russian and are in the pictures wit5h the other pro Russian forces. The locals know when they are there because the real Russian forces are really nice and the local pro Russian troop are mainly a bunch of bandits.
Yep.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
They just cover up the insignias and claim they are not Russian and are in the pictures wit5h the other pro Russian forces. The locals know when they are there because the real Russian forces are really nice and the local pro Russian troop are mainly a bunch of bandits.
Yep.
If the Russian soldiers in Ukraine are really nice, then what's all the fuss about?
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
Tom Cat how do you know that those pro Russian rebels are in fact rebels? Couldn't they be Russian forces wearing rebel uniforms and using rebel forces equipment which was probably Russian military equipment prior to a quick paint job?
The border in that area is so porous there is no way to adequately monitor it. Disguising Russian forces as rebel forces is simple and impossible to detect unless all involved get incredibly careless.
As Putin himself was quoted as saying there are special forces in Ukraine doing military matters. That doesn't mean these special forces are in Russian military uniforms or using Russian military vehicles. They could be disguised as anyone using any mode of transportation. As long as they crossed the border undetected they'd be impossible to track via satellite.
At the time it was announced Russia was sending military to Syria, the media was reporting, Putin was pulling his troops out of Ukraine to fight in Syria.
There's no Russian ground troops in Syria, or at least they have the same capability to wage war without being seen.
As the media has said Putin lost interest in Ukraine and the troops are gone, so Poroshenko is full of crap saying Russia is active in Ukraine.
Funny how U.S.military intelligence works fine in Syria to monitor Russia, but it is impossible to do the same in Ukraine.
Or maybe you can't take a picture of what's not there. :)
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Westcoast, there's no need to catch em crossing the border. If there's Russian troops already there then one would think they are not invisible, and should be able to be found with satellite or drones.
The pro Russian troops are visible and there's countless photos of them plenty of videos as well. Where's the photos of the Russian military in Ukraine?
Tom Cat how do you know that those pro Russian rebels are in fact rebels? Couldn't they be Russian forces wearing rebel uniforms and using rebel forces equipment which was probably Russian military equipment prior to a quick paint job?
The border in that area is so porous there is no way to adequately monitor it. Disguising Russian forces as rebel forces is simple and impossible to detect unless all involved get incredibly careless.
As Putin himself was quoted as saying there are special forces in Ukraine doing military matters. That doesn't mean these special forces are in Russian military uniforms or using Russian military vehicles. They could be disguised as anyone using any mode of transportation. As long as they crossed the border undetected they'd be impossible to track via satellite.
At the time it was announced Russia was sending military to Syria, the media was reporting, Putin was pulling his troops out of Ukraine to fight in Syria.
There's no Russian ground troops in Syria, or at least they have the same capability to wage war without being seen.
As the media has said Putin lost interest in Ukraine and the troops are gone, so Poroshenko is full of crap saying Russia is active in Ukraine.
Funny how U.S.military intelligence works fine in Syria to monitor Russia, but it is impossible to do the same in Ukraine.
Or maybe you can't take a picture of what's not there. :)
Tom Cat take a look at the size of the Russian military. As you say there aren't that many ground troops in Syria which means there are still plenty of Russian soldiers to infiltrate into Ukraine.
Russia has lots of tanks and artillery so whatever is being sent to Syria to guard the Russian bases is insignificant, meaning there're still lots of Russian tanks and artillery left in Russia to use in shelling Ukrainian military positions or to send to Putin's puppets operating in Ukraine.
Look at it this way Tom Cat. If you took 2 identical tanks, one used by the Ukrainian military and 1 used by the Russian military. Then took the Russian tank and gave it a paint job to look like a Ukrainian military tank and changed all other features on the Russian tank, inside and out to match the Ukrainian tank. How would you tell the two tanks apart?
Do the same to other pieces of Russian military equipment being sent to Putin's puppets and it's simple for the equipment to look like stolen Ukrainian military hardware.
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Wezty, Supposedly here in the United states you are innocent until proven guilty. No one has proven without doubt Russia's military involvement.
Instead of theories Westy, show some actual proof.
Without proof you have nothing concrete to back up your accusations.
Just out of curiosity, does Russia have ground troops in Crimea?
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Wezty, Supposedly here in the United states you are innocent until proven guilty. No one has proven without doubt Russia's military involvement.
Instead of theories Westy, show some actual proof.
Without proof you have nothing concrete to back up your accusations.
Putin admits special forces troops in Ukraine.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/vladimir-putin-admits-russian-military-presence-ukraine
Just out of curiosity, does Russia have ground troops in Crimea?
I would think they do. Probably more than when Russia was leasing parts of Crimea.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Actually this is not correct, low alt int sats are in constant orbit, but high alt int sats can and are positioned in one position to constantly monitor their target areas.
Would suggest that, like Syria, the US has a high alt int sat stationed and monitoring all movements over E Ukraine.
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Wezty, Supposedly here in the United states you are innocent until proven guilty. No one has proven without doubt Russia's military involvement.
Instead of theories Westy, show some actual proof.
Without proof you have nothing concrete to back up your accusations.
Putin admits special forces troops in Ukraine.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/vladimir-putin-admits-russian-military-presence-ukraine
Just out of curiosity, does Russia have ground troops in Crimea?
I would think they do. Probably more than when Russia was leasing parts of Crimea.
I do not know if this is true, but it is fact, that for many years under the "Old agreement", Russia was not allowed to modernise its forces in the Crimea, now, I would suggest they are being modernised rapidly.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Actually this is not correct, low alt int sats are in constant orbit, but high alt int sats can and are positioned in one position to constantly monitor their target areas.
Would suggest that, like Syria, the US has a high alt int sat stationed and monitoring all movements over E Ukraine.
You're probably correct that the US has defense and intelligence satellites in geosynchronous orbit however the general public probably would not know which satellites those would be. Countries like Russia and China would have a much better idea. As for those satellites being useful for observing the Ukraine-Russia border that's another question.
First problem is that satellites in geosynchronous orbit are 35,786 kilometres (22,236 miles) above the Earth. If spy satellites that are typically a couple of hundred miles (320 kms) to 1,000 miles (1600 kms) above the Earth can't get clear photos of a specific area how good would photos of the same region be from 35,786 kilometres (22,236 miles)?
Second problem is satellites in geosynchronous orbit are planned years in advance and designed for operating at a specific altitude over a specific spot on Earth. This means the US would have had to know years in advance that there was going to be trouble enough on that area of the Ukraine-Russia border to warrant a satellite and then the US would have to design and build a satellite especially to cover that area.
Third problem with satellites in geosynchronous orbit is that there are a limited number of spots available in geosynchronous orbit and who gets what spot is decided by International Telecommunication Union's allocation mechanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit#Orbit_allocation). If there was already a satellite in the orbital spot(s) needed to cover the specific area of the Ukraine-Russia border the US is SOL.
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More likely Geostationary orbits.
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More likely Geostationary orbits.
Who cares anymore. Crimea is done and it's not going back. They've modernized? No doubt they have Nukes there now and any talk by Ukraine of getting Crimea back is fantasy land talk.
Hopefully Russia will actually get out of Eastern Ukraine as a way to end the sanctions. I've read rumors this is in play. Stay tuned.
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You would think with drones and satellites, along with other means, there would be a few photos of these Russian troops.
Russia still sending troops, weapons to east Ukraine: Poroshenko
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-still-sending-troops-weapons-east-ukraine-poroshenko-165300098.html
Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
Russia, like the US, China, the UK and a number of other countries is capable of tracking spy satellites. That means Russia knows when US spy satellites are able to spy on the Ukraine-Russia border. When Russia wants to send troops into Ukraine, Putin has publicly admitted that Russia has troops in Ukraine, when do you think Russia would send troops across the border? When it knows American spy satellites are watching or when it knows American spy satellites are not watching?
Actually this is not correct, low alt int sats are in constant orbit, but high alt int sats can and are positioned in one position to constantly monitor their target areas.
Would suggest that, like Syria, the US has a high alt int sat stationed and monitoring all movements over E Ukraine.
You're probably correct that the US has defense and intelligence satellites in geosynchronous orbit however the general public probably would not know which satellites those would be. Countries like Russia and China would have a much better idea. As for those satellites being useful for observing the Ukraine-Russia border that's another question.
First problem is that satellites in geosynchronous orbit are 35,786 kilometres (22,236 miles) above the Earth. If spy satellites that are typically a couple of hundred miles (320 kms) to 1,000 miles (1600 kms) above the Earth can't get clear photos of a specific area how good would photos of the same region be from 35,786 kilometres (22,236 miles)?
Second problem is satellites in geosynchronous orbit are planned years in advance and designed for operating at a specific altitude over a specific spot on Earth. This means the US would have had to know years in advance that there was going to be trouble enough on that area of the Ukraine-Russia border to warrant a satellite and then the US would have to design and build a satellite especially to cover that area.
Third problem with satellites in geosynchronous orbit is that there are a limited number of spots available in geosynchronous orbit and who gets what spot is decided by International Telecommunication Union's allocation mechanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit#Orbit_allocation). If there was already a satellite in the orbital spot(s) needed to cover the specific area of the Ukraine-Russia border the US is SOL.
:bow:
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Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
I think a lot of us need to read up on sat coms / surveillance to save embarrassment- not all one reads on wiki or space.com is up to date ... :coffeeread:
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Tom Cat must I explain how spy satellites work yet again? Spy satellites DO NOT stay in one position over a target. Spy satellites orbit the Earth on a predictable flight path.
I think a lot of us need to read up on sat coms / surveillance to save embarrassment- not all one reads on wiki or space.com is up to date ... :coffeeread:
WOW, for once we are in complete agreement.. :nod:
Don't let it happen again, or people will talk... ;D
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A small, but important correction for Westcoast. The Russians government or state have not said the the Russian military is in Ukraine. The Ukraine military high command have said that the Russian military is NOT in Ukraine.
What has been said is that the LPR/DPR have received some military support from the Russian people.
Military support means stuff like (but not necessarily including) intelligence information, rations, weapons, ammunition, vehicles and even training.
The Russian people means that this support did not come under the auspices of, or with the support of, the Russian government or state.
This is why the borders between Russia and the LPR/DPR have been heavily monitored by the Russian government with a view to restricting the flow of military support and why the OSCE has not been claiming that such support exists.
It is fine to have an active imagination, Westcoast but, at your age, your caregivers need to monitor your mental state to ensure that you are not becoming delusional. You might want to ask them to monitor you a little more closely.
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Sure does not seem like Kiev wants to regain control of its borders.
Because if they continue to inflict hardship on the Donbass, Russian may decide it's time to protect the Russians living there.
DPR defense ministry calls closing checkpoints with Ukraine genocide of Donbass people
http://tass.ru/en/world/853976http://tass.ru/en/world/853976
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Ukrainian minister of Finance resigns because he is 'sick and tired of corruption'.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2016/02/3/7097676/
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Really nothing new, maybe is why no one talks about it.
The War In Ukraine Is Back—So Why Won’t Anyone Say So?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/03/the-war-in-ukraine-is-back-so-why-won-t-anyone-say-so.html
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The Russians government or state have not said the the Russian military is in Ukraine. The Ukraine military high command have said that the Russian military is NOT in Ukraine.
Andrewfi is 'at it', again...repeating a discredited fib..
1/ UA said something rather different..as you well know...
2/ Plenty of independent evidence of active Russian participation in UA..
What has been said is that the LPR/DPR have received some military support from the Russian people.
Like using the terms 'Lpr /Dpr' add any credit to your fairy story...
Military support means stuff like (but not necessarily including) intelligence information, rations, weapons, ammunition, vehicles and even training.
...and Tanks, APC's , active unit personnel, Rocket launchers and even the odd BUK surface to air launcher..
The Russian people means that this support did not come under the auspices of, or with the support of, the Russian government or state.
..and the little green men' of Crimea all bought their kit from the internet...
This is why the borders between Russia and the LPR/DPR have been heavily monitored by the Russian government with a view to restricting the flow of military support and why the OSCE has not been claiming that such support exists.
)) and why the military observers of the OSCE were kept at bay..
The next bit is classic afi 'bollox' ... whereby the author needs to address the very 'advice' he hands out..
It is fine to have an active imagination, Westcoast but, at your age, your caregivers need to monitor your mental state to ensure that you are not becoming delusional. You might want to ask them to monitor you a little more closely.
.
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The Russians government or state have not said the the Russian military is in Ukraine. The Ukraine military high command have said that the Russian military is NOT in Ukraine.
Andrewfi is 'at it', again...repeating a discredited fib..
1/ UA said something rather different..as you well know...
2/ Plenty of independent evidence of active Russian participation in UA..
What has been said is that the LPR/DPR have received some military support from the Russian people.
Like using the terms 'Lpr /Dpr' add any credit to your fairy story...
Military support means stuff like (but not necessarily including) intelligence information, rations, weapons, ammunition, vehicles and even training.
...and Tanks, APC's , active unit personnel, Rocket launchers and even the odd BUK surface to air launcher..
The Russian people means that this support did not come under the auspices of, or with the support of, the Russian government or state.
..and the little green men' of Crimea all bought their kit from the internet...
This is why the borders between Russia and the LPR/DPR have been heavily monitored by the Russian government with a view to restricting the flow of military support and why the OSCE has not been claiming that such support exists.
)) and why the military observers of the OSCE were kept at bay..
The next bit is classic afi 'bollox' ... whereby the author needs to address the very 'advice' he hands out..
It is fine to have an active imagination, Westcoast but, at your age, your caregivers need to monitor your mental state to ensure that you are not becoming delusional. You might want to ask them to monitor you a little more closely.
Unless you can supply 100% factual evidence of this, you had best leave it out of your future posts.
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Are you saying that you know that the Ukrainian military commander DIDN'T say what we know he said?
Moby, here's yet another chance for you to shine - link us to the credible article where he is quoted as saying that the Russian army ARE or were, at the time, facing the Ukrainian army.
As usual you won't because you are making shit up again.
There's no need for long posts quoting bits of other's words if you can't get yourself straight with any of it. Yes, you are bored, no, the dole money hasn't yet arrived and you already missing the comforts of Vietnamese ladyboys but don't make us suffer for your disabilities.
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Yep, Ukraine is much better off with the west. (:)
It's gonna take many years to turn the country around.
Mass Exodus of Western Businesses From Ukraine
http://russia-insider.com/en/business/foreign-businesses-quit-ukraine-en-masse/ri12621
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When even governor Saakashvili of Odessa is telling the world that it'll take a generation for Ukraine to recover then I think we can take it as read that the shit hit the fan, went through the blades and is now spread across the living room and its occupants.
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After reading this, I can't believe Ukraine was even able to recruit anyone to fight in eastern Ukraine.
Ukraine struggles to recruit soldiers for war in east
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0VD21Q?irpc=932
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After reading this, I can't believe Ukraine was even able to recruit anyone to fight in eastern Ukraine.
Ukraine struggles to recruit soldiers for war in east
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0VD21Q?irpc=932
Many conscripts defect also.. or return home, or even leave the country.
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After reading this, I can't believe Ukraine was even able to recruit anyone to fight in eastern Ukraine.
Ukraine struggles to recruit soldiers for war in east
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0VD21Q?irpc=932
Many conscripts defect also.. or return home, or even leave the country.
Not all are conscripts. At the start of the war 1 in 8 were actually volunteers, and that is now down to 1 in 10. Just like in most countries soldiers are used as pawns -- they are the ones who suffer. Meanwhile the politicians back in Kiev play games.
excerpt
BATTLING THE BUREAUCRATS
At the start of the conflict in April 2014, when the separatists rose up against Kiev's rule following the seizure of Crimea by Russian forces, one in eight servicemen was a volunteer, but that number has since fallen to one in 10.
Some of those who do enlist end up feeling disillusioned with the way they were treated by their superiors.
Families like that of sniper Dmytro Kulish, one of hundreds of soldiers who went missing at the front line, seethe at what they see as the incompetence of military officials.
Kulish disappeared after a battle in September 2014 and was kept in a prison for nine months in Donetsk, the rebel-held main city in eastern Ukraine. When his wife saw a captured and badly beaten soldier being paraded by separatists in an online video, she instantly recognised her husband.
"First she was crying. Then she started fighting for my release. Unfortunately a significant part of the battle was with Ukrainian bureaucrats," Kulish said.
Another nine months passed and eventually the head of a Ukrainian volunteer battalion engineered his release in a prisoner exchange. "Officials from the Army, the National Guard and the State Security Service did almost nothing," Kulish said."
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After reading this, I can't believe Ukraine was even able to recruit anyone to fight in eastern Ukraine.
Ukraine struggles to recruit soldiers for war in east
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0VD21Q?irpc=932
Many conscripts defect also.. or return home, or even leave the country.
Not all are conscripts. At the start of the war 1 in 8 were actually volunteers, and that is now down to 1 in 10. Just like in most countries soldiers are used as pawns -- they are the ones who suffer. Meanwhile the politicians back in Kiev play games.
excerpt
BATTLING THE BUREAUCRATS
At the start of the conflict in April 2014, when the separatists rose up against Kiev's rule following the seizure of Crimea by Russian forces, one in eight servicemen was a volunteer, but that number has since fallen to one in 10.
Some of those who do enlist end up feeling disillusioned with the way they were treated by their superiors.
Families like that of sniper Dmytro Kulish, one of hundreds of soldiers who went missing at the front line, seethe at what they see as the incompetence of military officials.
Kulish disappeared after a battle in September 2014 and was kept in a prison for nine months in Donetsk, the rebel-held main city in eastern Ukraine. When his wife saw a captured and badly beaten soldier being paraded by separatists in an online video, she instantly recognised her husband.
"First she was crying. Then she started fighting for my release. Unfortunately a significant part of the battle was with Ukrainian bureaucrats," Kulish said.
Another nine months passed and eventually the head of a Ukrainian volunteer battalion engineered his release in a prisoner exchange. "Officials from the Army, the National Guard and the State Security Service did almost nothing," Kulish said."
Wonder how much they were paying before the increase?
To add insult to injury, they are given second hand gear, and have to buy some things besides.
Wages must have really gone to crap in Ukraine if they're willing to risk life and limb for peanuts.
This from the article,
The authorities say they have raised the salaries of those serving at the front to at least 7,000 hryvnia ($275) per month from 2,341 hryvnia to encourage soldiers to sign up or re-enlist. That could be a big incentive - some recruits would as civilians earn the minimum wage of around 1,400 hryvnia
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0VD21Q?irpc=932
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Ukraine: Resignation of economy minister could have wider consequences for west
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-resignation-economy-minister-could-have-wider-consequences-west-1542041
With corruption soaring in Ukraine, igniting the conflict might be the only way for Ukraine to get any financial support from the west.
Ukrainian military ready to use force in Donbass — Russia’s OSCE envoy
http://tass.ru/en/politics/854689
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Ukraine: Resignation of economy minister could have wider consequences for west
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-resignation-economy-minister-could-have-wider-consequences-west-1542041
With corruption soaring in Ukraine, igniting the conflict might be the only way for Ukraine to get any financial support from the west.
Ukrainian military ready to use force in Donbass — Russia’s OSCE envoy
http://tass.ru/en/politics/854689
'Well done, tc'
A wonderfully 'even' article from one of the publications that also told us that 'MH17' was 'another' Ukrainian AN-26 shot down by the DNR'[ :sick0012:] on July 19th 2014...
THIS http://tass.ru/en/russia/812781 (http://tass.ru/en/russia/812781)might explain the 'viewpoint' of Mr Lukashevich - appointed in Aug 2015 - by Putin - and one might ask what happened to Andrey Kelin ? :coffeeread:
By the way - the photo seems to be have taken in autumn.....
Judging by the 'success' of Kiev's limited resources and 'successes' - since August 2014 - when the 'aid convoys' were a deflection from the military aid that opened up a second - southern front from within Russia ... the question still being asked is why the OSCE needed to keep asking for the seized UA border crossings to be monitored...
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When even governor Saakashvili of Odessa is telling the world that it'll take a generation for Ukraine to recover then I think we can take it as read that the shit hit the fan, went through the blades and is now spread across the living room and its occupants.
INCORRECT..
it's not an unreal assessment given a frozen civil war in the east - Russian occupation of Crimea - from within.. and the endemic corruption culture that allows /allowed so much to be bought ...including driving test passes :coffeeread:
Carry on spinning..
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Moby, what a funny little thing you are!
What are you trying to say now?
Are you trying to say that you agree with governor Saakashvili's assessment, or do you disagree with his analysis?
From where we sit it looks as though you are simply struggling to take a contrary viewpoint to something that I wrote and yet, again, unable to do so.
Why not take your normal route and just make something up?
Don't worry, nobody expects anything better from you.
You can be yourself here.
I won't say that you are among friends here but we understand what you are. :)
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Moby, what a funny little thing you are!
Now if you can get back to us with your explaining why Putin has had to appoint his third envoy re the UA civil war...You having raised the matter as my 'homework'...
I know you being a stickler for posting honest facts...this must have slipped your mind...so you might be shocked that this is my 4th little nudge..
.
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Coming up with solutions maybe much easier than being able to implement them.
Timothy Ash: Solutions to Ukraine's rule-of-law problem
http://www.Kievpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-solutions-to-ukraines-rule-of-law-problem-407505.html
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Moby, I have nothing to add to previous posts. You are allowed to learn for yourself you know.
I am flattered that you consider me so important to your self education but I do not choose for myself the role of tutor and mentor. The Internet is full of useful information and for the unemployed, such as yourself, the local library is a boon! Free books, free Internet and cosy and warm to boot.
When you have learned something why not share with us?
Be careful to not be untruthful though, we'll probably notice. :popcorn:
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Seems whenever there's a find by Ukrainian authorities, the evidence looks to be planted.
Ukraine authorities announce find of arms linked to 2014 protest
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-authorities-announce-arms-linked-2014-protest-184250441.html
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Timing is everything, except when you present questionable evidence.
Paul Niland: Poroshenko, Shokin -- clean up your act or get out (VIDEO)
http://www.Kievpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/paul-niland-poroshenko-shokin-clean-up-your-act-or-get-out-video-407552.html
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Moby, I have nothing to add to previous posts. You are allowed to learn for yourself you know.
andrewfi speak for - ''OMG Moby has proved me to be BSing - again - so let's make my response something untrue about him - ignoring the fact I raised a subject and when he answered and responded proving he knew more than I had estimated - and asked me a searching question - I can't .. because it will prove I was wrong and unwise to challenge him ... '' :chuckle:
I am flattered that you consider me so important to your self education [/quote]
I simply responded to your 'test'
When you have learned something why not share with us?
Be careful to not be untruthful though, we'll probably notice. :popcorn:
untruthful - like ,
1/'I'm never wrong' or
2/ Moby lives off the generosity of others ..'alfie' :chuckle:
3/ 'BINT' is not derogatory in UK English
4/ 'The rouble is showing signs of recovery' - and 1 year on is 30 percent less
The list is endless..
Now when will you 'mark' my homework - that you 'set' and tell us why Moscow is on it's THIRD emissary re Ukraine's'civil war' ?
Please don't sulk ..or write lot's of irrelevant words.... 'educate' us ..
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Ukraine's Interior Ministry to Probe Saakashvili's 'Treason Video' From Frontline
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-interior-ministry-probe-saakashvilis-treason-video-frontline/ri12800
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They keep poking the bear with a stick, sooner or later it's gonna backfire.
Activists block Russian trucks from crossing Ukraine's border (photo, video)
http://uatoday.tv/news/activists-block-russian-trucks-from-crossing-western-ukraine-border-589811.html
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Russia warns of new Cold War as east Ukraine violence surges
Along some fronts both sides are positioned to resume fighting.
Kiev seems to be the aggressor in most of the attacks recently.
Often I read the west has satellite images video proof of Russian involvement, yet they have not provided this.
This from the article,
The West says it has satellite images, videos and other evidence to show Russia is providing weapons to the rebels and that Moscow has troops engaged in the conflict that erupted following Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea in 2014.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VM0L6
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Often I read the west has satellite images video proof of Russian involvement, yet they have not provided this.
For two years. :-\
Kerry has again been mouthing off today, but the usual fluff, BS and Neocon flim flam. He even found a Frenchman to back him up.
Medvedev who is typically quiet, has been speaking today about a 'new cold war'.
As predicted many times, the decline of the US will be accompanied by a lot of kicking and screaming. This is what we are seeing the start of now. It will get worse till Trump gets in (if he does). Then (assuming he does) it will quieten down while the US spends a few years healing internal issues.
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Worse yet, now that we finally received the USA sat-feeds, it actually does show fighter-jets tailing the boeing.
Putin's 'lies' become debunked one by one for truth.
Only 1 media (geenstijl) is on the ball and asking uncomfertable questions at the gov't.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/02/radarvragen_ovv_en_vvd_in_het_1.html
Ah and for those who still think Bellincat is a nice independant resource platform:
https://twitter.com/wierdduk/status/698109504609714176
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Worse yet, now that we finally received the USA sat-feeds, it actually does show fighter-jets tailing the boeing.
Putin's 'lies' become debunked one by one for truth.
Only 1 media (geenstijl) is on the ball and asking uncomfertable questions at the gov't.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/02/radarvragen_ovv_en_vvd_in_het_1.html
Nothng about satellite imagery in the article you linked, It is all about radar.
No debunking either. This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17. The radar shows the boeing has slowed down and broke up. These story tellers will have you believe that this is a Ukrainian fighter that suddenly appeared out of nowhere, after the boeing had been hit.
No news here, just rehashing an old fairy tale.
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Worse yet, now that we finally received the USA sat-feeds, it actually does show fighter-jets tailing the boeing.
Putin's 'lies' become debunked one by one for truth.
Only 1 media (geenstijl) is on the ball and asking uncomfertable questions at the gov't.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/02/radarvragen_ovv_en_vvd_in_het_1.html
Nothng about satellite imagery in the article you linked, It is all about radar.
No debunking either. This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17. The radar shows the boeing has slowed down and broke up. These story tellers will have you believe that this is a Ukrainian fighter that suddenly appeared out of nowhere, after the boeing had been hit.
No news here, just rehashing an old fairy tale.
You keep on believing that.
A plausible scenario is that the airplane was there and using the Boeing for cover to prevent being shot out of the sky.
The seperatists shot the buk, the fighter was fast and manouverable and the boeing handles like a stone wall, thus subsequently got hit.
Mark.
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'Fighter'?!.. Your fighter were 'two' SU-25 GROUND SUPPORT aorcraft..according to the first 'official' Kremlin version of events on Monday July 21st... It's now 'evolved' to....''It WAS a radar guided SAM.... but 'couldn't possibly' have been on of ours'...
.
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Worse yet, now that we finally received the USA sat-feeds, it actually does show fighter-jets tailing the boeing.
Putin's 'lies' become debunked one by one for truth.
Only 1 media (geenstijl) is on the ball and asking uncomfertable questions at the gov't.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/02/radarvragen_ovv_en_vvd_in_het_1.html
Nothng about satellite imagery in the article you linked, It is all about radar.
No debunking either. This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17. The radar shows the boeing has slowed down and broke up. These story tellers will have you believe that this is a Ukrainian fighter that suddenly appeared out of nowhere, after the boeing had been hit.
No news here, just rehashing an old fairy tale.
You keep on believing that.
A plausible scenario is that the airplane was there and using the Boeing for cover to prevent being shot out of the sky.
The seperatists shot the buk, the fighter was fast and manouverable and the boeing handles like a stone wall, thus subsequently got hit.
Mark.
I wasn't aware that the Ukrainian fighter jets had the abitlity to hover.
If you were to look at the radar imagery in the video, you will see that the blip that Russia is calling a Ukrainian fighter barely moves!! It remains in one spot while the other planes fly by. This is not a functioning plane, but part of the shot down boeing.
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A plausible scenario is that the airplane was there and using the Boeing for cover to prevent being shot out of the sky.
The seperatists shot the buk, the fighter was fast and manouverable and the boeing handles like a stone wall, thus subsequently got hit.
Mark.
When will you stop telling us an SU-25 is a 'fighter' ? It cannot even fly as fast as a cruising Boeing and IF it is loaded with ordinance - no amount of mods will get it up to 10-11 thousand metres..
The video produced to 'diss' the point that a modified SU-25 could not fly that high had no missiles loaded and I'll wager no cannon
Indeed, the issue is defo about people who 'want to believe' ...spin
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If you were to look at the radar imagery in the video, you will see that the blip that Russia is calling a Ukrainian fighter barely moves!! It remains in one spot while the other planes fly by. This is not a functioning plane, but part of the shot down boeing.
The Boeing was flying 900 kph, even if it breaks up in the air, the laws of inertia say that the debris is also moving 900kph until it hits the ground because its vertical speed increases downward. The air will slow the debris, but not that much that it will show up on radar as a stationary blot.
A fast banking SU-25 however, might.
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Let us hope that this bears fruit..
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35585651
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This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17.
Don't be idiotic. "Russia" didn't shoot down MH17.
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At last, the rat is asked for his resignation:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraines-poroshenko-asks-pm-yatsenyuk-resign-134642055.html
(If only the pig would resign...)
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At last, the rat is asked for his resignation:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraines-poroshenko-asks-pm-yatsenyuk-resign-134642055.html
Yep, but he's staying on...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35591605
Somehow, he's got the support he needed..
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Apparently, those DUBs don't have a lick of sense.
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Apparently, those DUBs don't have a lick of sense.
Still as charming as ever. :thumbsup:
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This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17.
Don't be idiotic. "Russia" didn't shoot down MH17.
Russian crew, Russian weapon, Russian commanders . . . . .
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If you were to look at the radar imagery in the video, you will see that the blip that Russia is calling a Ukrainian fighter barely moves!! It remains in one spot while the other planes fly by. This is not a functioning plane, but part of the shot down boeing.
The Boeing was flying 900 kph, even if it breaks up in the air, the laws of inertia say that the debris is also moving 900kph until it hits the ground because its vertical speed increases downward. The air will slow the debris, but not that much that it will show up on radar as a stationary blot.
A fast banking SU-25 however, might.
I found it interesting that at the time this plane was shot down, there was no mention of this "fighter" in the discussions that were going on between the Dnepropetovsk and Rostov air traffic controllers.
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It's looking like the fighting in eastern Ukraine, will intensify as spring approaches.
The OSCE, suspects Russia is once again supplying the separatists.
As focus remains on Syria, Ukraine sees heaviest fighting in months
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/02/16/as-focus-remains-on-syria-ukraine-sees-heaviest-fighting-in-months/
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Waszczykowski: There is Russian aggression, not a civil war, in eastern Ukraine
15.02.2016 09:36176There is Russian aggression, not a civil war, in eastern Ukraine, Foreign Minister of Poland Witold Waszczykowski has said.“What we see in the east is not a Ukrainian crisis and not a civil war, but Russian aggression against Ukraine,” Waszczykowski said at the 2016 Munich Security Conference, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.According to him, statements by Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov at the conference indicate that Russia is trying “to create a new international order”.Waszczykowski reminded about latest joint Russian-Belarusian exercises “West”, which included a simulated nuclear attack against Poland. Among examples of threats from the Russian Federation, he named the war in Georgia and Ukraine, as well as Moscow's participation in the war in Syria.iy
http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-politics/1965554-waszczykowski-there-is-russian-aggression-not-a-civil-war-in-eastern-ukraine.html#
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This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17.
Don't be idiotic. "Russia" didn't shoot down MH17.
Russian crew, Russian weapon, Russian commanders . . . . .
You can provide factual, irrefutable evidence to support your claim??...
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Waszczykowski: There is Russian aggression, not a civil war, in eastern Ukraine
15.02.2016 09:36176There is Russian aggression, not a civil war, in eastern Ukraine, Foreign Minister of Poland Witold Waszczykowski has said.“What we see in the east is not a Ukrainian crisis and not a civil war, but Russian aggression against Ukraine,” Waszczykowski said at the 2016 Munich Security Conference, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.According to him, statements by Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov at the conference indicate that Russia is trying “to create a new international order”.Waszczykowski reminded about latest joint Russian-Belarusian exercises “West”, which included a simulated nuclear attack against Poland. Among examples of threats from the Russian Federation, he named the war in Georgia and Ukraine, as well as Moscow's participation in the war in Syria.iy
http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-politics/1965554-waszczykowski-there-is-russian-aggression-not-a-civil-war-in-eastern-ukraine.html#
Poland wishes for NATO/US troops and modern equipment to be stationed in the country, at no expense to themselves.
Economically speaking, such an investment would be good for the Polish economy, and would also mean that the Polish Government could reduce any investment in its own military.
Tactically speaking, NATO/US fully understand that such a move would be total waste of persons, equipment, and money should any aggression take place.
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If you were to look at the radar imagery in the video, you will see that the blip that Russia is calling a Ukrainian fighter barely moves!! It remains in one spot while the other planes fly by. This is not a functioning plane, but part of the shot down boeing.
The Boeing was flying 900 kph, even if it breaks up in the air, the laws of inertia say that the debris is also moving 900kph until it hits the ground because its vertical speed increases downward. The air will slow the debris, but not that much that it will show up on radar as a stationary blot.
A fast banking SU-25 however, might.
I found it interesting that at the time this plane was shot down, there was no mention of this "fighter" in the discussions that were going on between the Dnepropetovsk and Rostov air traffic controllers.
Although I am not a supporter of the theory, ATC's are not allowed to discuss military flights on open airways.
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I found it interesting that at the time this plane was shot down, there was no mention of this "fighter" in the discussions that were going on between the Dnepropetovsk and Rostov air traffic controllers.
But the -banned- BBC television interview that was only 1-2 hours after the accident happened, did talk of the
fighter-jet. Eye witnesses stated it as well.
When the party-line became clear, this interview was erased multiple times from youtube and other internet sites hosting live video for 'copyright infringement' when it was clearly news.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631
Youtube already deleted this video as well, but the transcribe is good enough.
And about the tower: How would you know, the air traffic control tapes were never released, they remain ukraine's state secret.
Mark.
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And, Mark, lest we forget, we already know that it was an established tactic of the Ukrainian air force to have planes following behind larger, non-military planes. There's eye witness reports and video of just this happening dating from well before the MH17 attack.
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This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17.
Don't be idiotic. "Russia" didn't shoot down MH17.
Russian crew, Russian weapon, Russian commanders . . . . .
You can provide factual, irrefutable evidence to support your claim??...
To be fair, he doesn’t require evidence– his avatar suggests he’s already made up his mind! The pro Ukraine crowd haven’t even considered the fact that as much as it could have been a Russian hand that pulled the trigger it could just as easily have been a Ukrainian hand! Likelihood is we will never know!
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And about the tower: How would you know, the air traffic control tapes were never released, they remain ukraine's state secret.
Mark.
I know my Dutch is not at the level it should be sometimes, but could you translate the following sentence for me?
UkSATSE heeft de opname en een transcriptie van de radio (RAD)- en telefooncommunicatie met betrekking tot vlucht MH17 verstrekt?
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And about the tower: How would you know, the air traffic control tapes were never released, they remain ukraine's state secret.
Mark.
I know my Dutch is not at the level it should be sometimes, but could you translate the following sentence for me?
UkSATSE heeft de opname en een transcriptie van de radio (RAD)- en telefooncommunicatie met betrekking tot vlucht MH17 verstrekt?
Here's a hint for you:
July 19, 2014
“Ukraine’s SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.” - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784 -
They were never seen again uneditted.
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And you don't find it funny that the DSB, already in its "report of first findings - MH17" put the sentence below?
UkSATSE received the recording and a transcription of the radio (RAD)- and telephone communication with regards to flight MH17.
As far as I know nobody in the investigation team (including the Russians) reported that the radio communication should not be trusted. As far as ICAO is concerned (the investigation was done under ICAO rules) the recordings are now considered factual.
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And you don't find it funny that the DSB, already in its "report of first findings - MH17" put the sentence below?
UkSATSE received the recording and a transcription of the radio (RAD)- and telephone communication with regards to flight MH17.
As far as I know nobody in the investigation team (including the Russians) reported that the radio communication should not be trusted. As far as ICAO is concerned (the investigation was done under ICAO rules) the recordings are now considered factual.
If nobody thinks they are doctored or untrustworthy, fine I will concede that point.
But fact remains, they were confisquated by the SBU only hours after the crash and not seen again uneditted.
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But fact remains, they were confisquated by the SBU only hours after the crash and not seen again uneditted.
Regarding the first part of your response. Do you find it very strange that, immediately after a crash, officials secure as much evidence as possible? I would be very surprised if for example immediately (say a day) after TK1951 (or ELAL 1862) the Dutch authorities (in the Dutch case probably either the DSB or the department of justice) would not have confiscated the recordings of conversations between Dutch air traffic control officers and the crew of those airliners.
That leaves your last part. I guess the burden of proof for that part ("and not seen again uneditted") is on you. As I mentioned already, the investigation team did not report any irregularities. There are ways to verify the information received. So, till prooven otherwise "uneditted" is not factual.
Honestly, I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.
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This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17.
Don't be idiotic. "Russia" didn't shoot down MH17.
Russian crew, Russian weapon, Russian commanders . . . . .
You can provide factual, irrefutable evidence to support your claim??...
:ROFL: That would bring a new standard of proof to everybody's posting on this forum, wouldn't it?? What I have stated comes simply from the evidence. Study it and make your own conclusions.
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Wonder how many Ukrainians actually believe they can win a war against Russia? It's doubtful Ukraine would find any country willing to join them.
Kiev unveils war plans against Russia for Crimea and Donbass.
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/16-02-2016/133342-ukraine_war_russia_crimea-0/
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This is the same BS story that Russia put forward shortly after they shot down MH-17.
Don't be idiotic. "Russia" didn't shoot down MH17.
Russian crew, Russian weapon, Russian commanders . . . . .
You can provide factual, irrefutable evidence to support your claim??...
To be fair, he doesn’t require evidence– his avatar suggests he’s already made up his mind! The pro Ukraine crowd haven’t even considered the fact that as much as it could have been a Russian hand that pulled the trigger it could just as easily have been a Ukrainian hand! Likelihood is we will never know!
Initially, I did think that it was Ukrainian separitists that "pulled the trigger". I had assumed that an unintentional shooting down of an airliner was from a lack of training/incompetence. As more information came out later, it seemed more likely that the BUK had a Russian crew.
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I found it interesting that at the time this plane was shot down, there was no mention of this "fighter" in the discussions that were going on between the Dnepropetrovsk and Rostov air traffic controllers.
And about the tower: How would you know, the air traffic control tapes were never released, they remain ukraine's state secret.
Mark.
I read a transcript of the discussion between the Dnepropetrovsk and Rostov ATC's. I'm sure there is a link to it somewhere on the forum.
Since the conversation was between a Ukrainian ATC and a Russian ATC, both Ukraine and Russia could have tapes.
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Wonder how many Ukrainians actually believe they can win a war against Russia? It's doubtful Ukraine would find any country willing to join them.
Kiev unveils war plans against Russia for Crimea and Donbass.
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/16-02-2016/133342-ukraine_war_russia_crimea-0/
that link is full of propoganda rubbish in the main , no wonder the sheeple who read it start to believe such trash
SX
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Russian crew, Russian weapon, Russian commanders . . . . .
You can provide factual, irrefutable evidence to support your claim??...
:ROFL: That would bring a new standard of proof to everybody's posting on this forum, wouldn't it?? What I have stated comes simply from the evidence. Study it and make your own conclusions.
The question is quite valid, as there are multiple sources who said Russia hasn't shot down this aircraft.
* Ukrainian army general
* Dutch Military secret service
....
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But fact remains, they were confisquated by the SBU only hours after the crash and not seen again uneditted.
NOT what the report states ...
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But fact remains, they were confisquated by the SBU only hours after the crash and not seen again uneditted.
NOT what the report states ...
Hey, moby, liar, what does the report say?
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But fact remains, they were confisquated by the SBU only hours after the crash and not seen again uneditted.
NOT what the report states ...
Hey, moby, liar, what does the report say?
Hey, andrewfi - unlike certain posters - I'd never be daft enough to suggest someone was fibbing without being able to back it up...
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf (http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf)
page 38
Ukraine provided
1/ Secondary surveillance radar - raw data
2/ Secondary surveillance radar -processed data
3/ ADS-8 DATA
4/ Video recordings of processed secondary data
plus the recordings of the conversations between Dnip' ATC AND THE bOEING .
Russia Provided ..
That the Ukrainians and Russians provided
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Ukraine never should have tried to go pro EU. There's no way in hell they will ever get corruption under control, or prosper without Russia.
They had 2 years ,and still no progress has been made.
Leaving the Sinking Ship: Tymoshenko Quits Ukraine's Governing Coalition
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/leaving-sinking-ship-tymoshenko-quits-governing-coalition/ri12937
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The economic situation was obvious before signing. Yanukovuych was right on the money. Anyone who has understanding of economics and finance who read the economic section of the association agreement and understood the pattern of Ukraine's imports and exports would have known what was coming. I am sure that many of the heads of state within the EU knew what was going to happen, economically at least.
One could write about the manner in which capitalist societies need to have new resources and new markets. What is happening in Ukraine happened in Greece - opening up of a market for extraction of value from that market: resources going out and cheap imports replacing indigenous products going in.
The social collapse has made things worse, much worse.
Tymoshenko's action is to enable her to set herself up as a candidate for PM in a few weeks time. It is a cynical positioning for a power grab.
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Drone footage shows one of Ukraine's bloodiest battlefields, Debaltsevo, 1yr on
https://www.rt.com/news/333027-debaltsevo-ukraine-drone-year/
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The United state's ambassador needs to remove his rose colored glasses.
US ambassador urges ‘elimination of graft & corruption,’ ‘meaningful steps to reform’ in Ukraine
https://www.rt.com/news/333026-pyatt-investment-ukraine-corruption/
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Ukraine once again shows they are making great progress with getting things in order.
'Revolution of Dignity': Friendly Ukrainian Nationalists Destroy Russian Banks in Kiev (VIDEO)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/revolution-dignity-friendly-ukrainian-nationalists-destroy-russian-banks-kiev-video/ri12973
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Orange Revolution's Leader Calls Ukraine's Crisis 'Most Hopeless' Yet.
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160221/1035123749/ukraine-crisis-yushchenko.html
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Anyway you want to look at it, Ukraine is having big problems.
That's why the readout of the phone conversation with Poroshenko, and Biden is most humorous.
Readout of Vice President Biden’s Call with President Petro Poroshenko of Ukraine
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/02/19/readout-vice-president-bidens-call-president-petro-poroshenko-ukraine
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Saakashvili: Failed resignation of Ukrainian PM is oligarchic coup
http://tass.ru/en/world/858201
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Saakashvili: Failed resignation of Ukrainian PM is oligarchic coup
http://tass.ru/en/world/858201
I feel that he has not made any new friends with this, and that the chances of him being sacked in the near future have dramatically increased..
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I can't skip thought all 180 pages to see if it was already posted But I think it's not big deal if post it once more - in a memory of Maidan wich selebrated lately it's 2th anniversary / I don't think this movie is 100% objective but at least it IS an attempt to to remove the blinders from the Western,s eyes
French movie ( about 1 hour) -- Mask of the revolution - wich the Ukrainians are not happy with
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I can't skip thought all 180 pages to see if it was already posted But I think it's not big deal if post it once more - in a memory of Maidan wich selebrated lately it's 2th anniversary / I don't think this movie is 100% objective but at least it IS an attempt to to remove the blinders from the Western,s eyes
Maidan is back ! They are asking Poroshenko and its entire cabinet to resign. 1000 people and growing already.
I will quote an Ukrainian news-source to prevent propaganda-cryers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3632663-veche-na-maidane-aktyvysty-vydvynuly-trebovanyia
Google-translate does a well-enough job so I won't ask someone to translate.
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Maidan is back ! They are asking Poroshenko and its entire cabinet to resign
Wonder whom they would blame this time (:)
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Eu-Ukraine Association agreement:
Why Ukraine must vote no:
Artikel 13 Bestrijding van terrorisme
De partijen komen overeen samen te werken op bilateraal, regionaal en internationaal niveau om terrorisme te voorkomen en te bestrijden, in overeenstemming met het internationale recht, de internationale mensenrechten, het vluchtelingenrecht en het humanitair recht.
Translation: If Europe gets asylum seekers from countries like say, syria, Ukraine agrees to take its fair share of them.
WHAHAHAHAHAHA
Now I understand why the yes-vote is so strong from within European politicians, they already see the refugees leaving to Ukraine!
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Things Get Ugly As Protestors Call For A New Ukraine Revolution
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/22/things-get-ugly-as-protestors-call-for-a-new-ukraine-revolution.html
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The natives are getting restless in Ukraine,
Mayor of town in Ukraine's Lugansk region murdered
http://www.Kievpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/mayor-of-town-in-ukraines-Lugansk-region-murdered-408697.html
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Kiev forces regained control over Shirokino in Donbass
http://tass.ru/en/world/859023
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Kiev trains ‘special unit’ to take back Crimea from Russia – Ukrainian Interior Minister
https://www.rt.com/news/333801-ukraine-special-forces-crimea/
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Kiev forces regained control over Shirokino in Donbass
http://tass.ru/en/world/859023
Wasn't that supposed to be a demilitarised zone? Which means two things.
1) The LPR/DPR 'lost' nothing.
2) The Kievan regime is breaking the Minsk 2 accords in clear and positive (but not good) manner.
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Donetsk Blog Feb 29: Cemetery Shelled - Tatar Radicals Arrive - Ukraine Ready to Attack
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-feb-29-cemetery-shelled-tatar-radicals-arrival-afu-ready-attack/ri13101
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Germany at UN raises alarm over Ukraine ceasefire
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-un-raises-alarm-over-ukraine-ceasefire-184322425.html
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Poroshenko Orders Ukrainian Military Focus on Crimea, Black Sea
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/poroshenko-orders-ukrainian-military-focus-on-crimea-black-sea/561043.html
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It's the same as usual, only different players.
Poroshenko, Elites Getting Filthy Rich Off the Backs of Ukrainians (Video)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/who-reaped-rewards-maidans-revolution-dignity/ri13112
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Ah right, so they overthrew a corrupt thief, to vote in a corrupt thief & murderer.
great progress.
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It's easy to single out one individual for their lack of accomplishment, but it's been a group effort to run Ukraine into ruins.
Yatsenyuk defies Poroshenko, says his replacement will do no good
https://www.euractiv.com/
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The push to make Ukraine part of the west has done wonders for the living standards. (:)
Ukrainians Dying by the Thousands Due to Lack of Meds, Protesters Blame Yatsenyuk (Video)
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/yatsenyuk-you-will-see-me-die-video/ri13160
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Donetsk Blog Mar 03: Kiev Advancing - Massive Ukrainian Exercises - Locals Held Hostage
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-03-kiev-advancing-afu-massive-exercises-locals-held-hostages/ri13170
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Donetsk Blog Mar 03: Kiev Advancing - Massive Ukrainian Exercises - Locals Held Hostage
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-03-kiev-advancing-afu-massive-exercises-locals-held-hostages/ri13170
This not article not written this year. March 3 was a Friday in the year of article and in 2016 March 4 is Friday. The link does not work any more but old story can still be seen at
http://www.therussophile.org/donetsk-blog-mar-03-kiev-advancing-massive-ukrainian-exercises-locals-held-hostages-irina-burya.html/
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Donetsk Blog Mar 03: Kiev Advancing - Massive Ukrainian Exercises - Locals Held Hostage
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-03-kiev-advancing-afu-massive-exercises-locals-held-hostages/ri13170
This not article not written this year. March 3 was a Friday in the year of article and in 2016 March 4 is Friday. The link does not work any more but old story can still be seen at
http://www.therussophile.org/donetsk-blog-mar-03-kiev-advancing-massive-ukrainian-exercises-locals-held-hostages-irina-burya.html/
Texan check a calendar there is no Friday March 3 in 2015 or 2014 so it's just a typo. Russian insider is down at the moment that's why the link is not working
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Ah right, so they overthrew a corrupt thief, to vote in a corrupt thief & murderer.
great progress.
You keep up with the mantra.... I'll simply remind you that the Kremlin keeps backing corrupt officials and the 'murders' are mostly the result of a REACTION to a non too covert invasion ..
We know how the Kremlin reacts to parts of it's 'territory' seeking to 'leave' the RF - even though they never agreed to be part of it ...
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With no hope of joining the EU, there's not much incentive for peace.
I think we will see a push by kiev forces to take back eastern Ukraine.
The Minsk agreement is all but worthless .
Ukraine says Russian-backed separatist forces suffer heavy losses near Mariupol
http://uatoday.tv/politics/ukraine-says-russian-backed-separatist-forces-suffer-heavy-losses-near-mariupol-604820.html
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Donetsk Blog Mar 07: Observers Shelled - Civilians as Human Shields - Kiev Subversive Tactics
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-07-observers-shelled-civilians-living-shield-kiev-subversive-tactics/ri13206
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US Still Pouring Taxpayer Billions Into Ukrainian Black Hole
http://russia-insider.com/en/us-still-pouring-taxpayer-billions-ukrainian-black-hole/ri13214
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Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk is reportedly ready to resign.
Natalie Jaresko could become Ukraine's new PM by the end of the week - former U.S. diplomat
http://uatoday.tv/politics/natalie-jaresko-could-become-ukraine-s-new-pm-by-the-end-of-the-week-former-u-s-diplomat-606133.html
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Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk is reportedly ready to resign.
Natalie Jaresko could become Ukraine's new PM by the end of the week - former U.S. diplomat
http://uatoday.tv/politics/natalie-jaresko-could-become-ukraine-s-new-pm-by-the-end-of-the-week-former-u-s-diplomat-606133.html
She is a citizen of both the USA and Ukraine. I thought that was illegal?
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Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk is reportedly ready to resign.
Natalie Jaresko could become Ukraine's new PM by the end of the week - former U.S. diplomat
http://uatoday.tv/politics/natalie-jaresko-could-become-ukraine-s-new-pm-by-the-end-of-the-week-former-u-s-diplomat-606133.html
She is a citizen of both the USA and Ukraine. I thought that was illegal?
It is, except for certain people... :chuckle:
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Donetsk Blog Mar 11: Kiev Breakthrough Attempts - OSCE Inspections Obstructed - Arrival of Right Sector
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-11-kiev-breakthrough-attempts-osce-inspections-failed-radicals-arriving/ri13284
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No Peace in Ukraine Because Kiev Can’t Reign In Its Neo Nazis
“Make one move to accommodate the (peace) accord and we will bring you down
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/no-peace-ukraine-because-kiev-cant-reign-its-neo-nazis/ri13316
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Poroshenko Eyes Finance Minister Jaresko, Lvov Mayor Sadovy as PM
Material.
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160314/1036264661/poroshenko-ukraine-pm-jaresko-sadovy.html
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It's often stated that dead military personnel are being buried in the field.
With such little regard for those that give their life for country, what are they actually fighting for?
Donetsk Blog Mar 14: Fighting Along Whole Front - OSCE Twisting Facts - Civilians Evacuated
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-14-fighting-whole-front-osce-twisting-facts-civilians-evacuated/ri13330
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Ukraine fire sale: 60% discount for state assets
https://www.rt.com/business/335632-ukraine-state-assets-sale/
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There's definitely a lack of priorities in what needs to be done.
Ukraine tears down giant Lenin statue, live on YouTube
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0WJ24B
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Exclusive: Ukraine's Yanukovich says assets seizure is attempt to hide Kiev's failings
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0WK2J1
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Exclusive: Ukraine's Yanukovich says assets seizure is attempt to hide Kiev's failings
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0WK2J1
Yanukovich hasn't been Ukrainian in decades.
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It's often stated that dead military personnel are being buried in the field.
With such little regard for those that give their life for country, what are they actually fighting for?
Donetsk Blog Mar 14: Fighting Along Whole Front - OSCE Twisting Facts - Civilians Evacuated
http://russia-insider.com/en/donetsk-blog-mar-14-fighting-whole-front-osce-twisting-facts-civilians-evacuated/ri13330
Well ... You might ask the same question about almost 2 Million US Soldiers. And probably near that of English, and German soldiers. French and Russian soldiers would easily top the 2 million mark buried where only God knows where.
Wayne
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2016/03/25/busted-fantasies-in-kiev-america-and-europe-wont-save-the-ukrainian-maiden-in-distress/#1b84c9cf4cd1
Busted Fantasies In Kiev: America And Europe Won't Save Ukrainian Maiden In Distress
Despite the outrage over Russian behavior expressed in Brussels, “Old Europe” feels little threat from the east. The economic benefits of integrating even an undivided Ukraine at peace into the European Union would be modest and take much time. Today Kiev is an economic black hole and the fiscally strapped Europeans have shown no inclination to contribute anything close to the aid levels required by Ukraine.
The U.S. has even less interest in the region. Other than Ukrainian expatriates who believe the sun rises and sets in Kiev and ideological Neoconservatives who believe Washington should war against any power that resists America’s dictates, few Americans even think about Ukraine. Much silly rhetoric has been spewed in the presidential contest so far on all manner of subjects. Yet Russia is rarely mentioned and even then mostly to complain about Moscow’s intervention in Syria, not Ukraine.
Thus, bleeding Ukraine elicits sympathy, not commitment. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to impose serious sanctions designed to break the Russian economy. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to risk war with Russia. The West will not retrieve Crimea, suppress Donbas separatists, guarantee Ukraine’s territorial integrity, or even bail out the latter’s economy. Which means Kiev is effectively on its own.
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2016/03/25/busted-fantasies-in-kiev-america-and-europe-wont-save-the-ukrainian-maiden-in-distress/#1b84c9cf4cd1
Busted Fantasies In Kiev: America And Europe Won't Save Ukrainian Maiden In Distress
Despite the outrage over Russian behavior expressed in Brussels, “Old Europe” feels little threat from the east. The economic benefits of integrating even an undivided Ukraine at peace into the European Union would be modest and take much time. Today Kiev is an economic black hole and the fiscally strapped Europeans have shown no inclination to contribute anything close to the aid levels required by Ukraine.
The U.S. has even less interest in the region. Other than Ukrainian expatriates who believe the sun rises and sets in Kiev and ideological Neoconservatives who believe Washington should war against any power that resists America’s dictates, few Americans even think about Ukraine. Much silly rhetoric has been spewed in the presidential contest so far on all manner of subjects. Yet Russia is rarely mentioned and even then mostly to complain about Moscow’s intervention in Syria, not Ukraine.
Thus, bleeding Ukraine elicits sympathy, not commitment. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to impose serious sanctions designed to break the Russian economy. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to risk war with Russia. The West will not retrieve Crimea, suppress Donbas separatists, guarantee Ukraine’s territorial integrity, or even bail out the latter’s economy. Which means Kiev is effectively on its own.
That's also how I see it...
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2016/03/25/busted-fantasies-in-kiev-america-and-europe-wont-save-the-ukrainian-maiden-in-distress/#1b84c9cf4cd1
Busted Fantasies In Kiev: America And Europe Won't Save Ukrainian Maiden In Distress
Despite the outrage over Russian behavior expressed in Brussels, “Old Europe” feels little threat from the east. The economic benefits of integrating even an undivided Ukraine at peace into the European Union would be modest and take much time. Today Kiev is an economic black hole and the fiscally strapped Europeans have shown no inclination to contribute anything close to the aid levels required by Ukraine.
The U.S. has even less interest in the region. Other than Ukrainian expatriates who believe the sun rises and sets in Kiev and ideological Neoconservatives who believe Washington should war against any power that resists America’s dictates, few Americans even think about Ukraine. Much silly rhetoric has been spewed in the presidential contest so far on all manner of subjects. Yet Russia is rarely mentioned and even then mostly to complain about Moscow’s intervention in Syria, not Ukraine.
Thus, bleeding Ukraine elicits sympathy, not commitment. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to impose serious sanctions designed to break the Russian economy. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to risk war with Russia. The West will not retrieve Crimea, suppress Donbas separatists, guarantee Ukraine’s territorial integrity, or even bail out the latter’s economy. Which means Kiev is effectively on its own.
In the end I think the Ukraine is going to implode. Eastern Ukraine where all the Russian speakers is going down. LPR and DPR are economic basket cases that no body has the money to fix. All money that is in the region has to come from Russia. All the areas around these break way regions is seeing a exodus of money and people. Most of the factories in the east are shut down and looted. Over half of the coal mines eastern Ukraine have been destroyed and likely to never produce again. At some point Kiev will have to cut off the whole eastern part of the country and let it sink. Russia will get what is wanted but be careful what you wish for. It may not be as good as you expect. There will be some twenty million people without gas and not necessities of life all Ethnic Russians all starving on the Russian border. Is this what you guys really because this is what is likely to happen.
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2016/03/25/busted-fantasies-in-kiev-america-and-europe-wont-save-the-ukrainian-maiden-in-distress/#1b84c9cf4cd1
Busted Fantasies In Kiev: America And Europe Won't Save Ukrainian Maiden In Distress
Despite the outrage over Russian behavior expressed in Brussels, “Old Europe” feels little threat from the east. The economic benefits of integrating even an undivided Ukraine at peace into the European Union would be modest and take much time. Today Kiev is an economic black hole and the fiscally strapped Europeans have shown no inclination to contribute anything close to the aid levels required by Ukraine.
The U.S. has even less interest in the region. Other than Ukrainian expatriates who believe the sun rises and sets in Kiev and ideological Neoconservatives who believe Washington should war against any power that resists America’s dictates, few Americans even think about Ukraine. Much silly rhetoric has been spewed in the presidential contest so far on all manner of subjects. Yet Russia is rarely mentioned and even then mostly to complain about Moscow’s intervention in Syria, not Ukraine.
Thus, bleeding Ukraine elicits sympathy, not commitment. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to impose serious sanctions designed to break the Russian economy. Neither America nor Europe is prepared to risk war with Russia. The West will not retrieve Crimea, suppress Donbas separatists, guarantee Ukraine’s territorial integrity, or even bail out the latter’s economy. Which means Kiev is effectively on its own.
In the end I think the Ukraine is going to implode. Eastern Ukraine where all the Russian speakers is going down. LPR and DPR are economic basket cases that no body has the money to fix. All money that is in the region has to come from Russia. All the areas around these break way regions is seeing a exodus of money and people. Most of the factories in the east are shut down and looted. Over half of the coal mines eastern Ukraine have been destroyed and likely to never produce again. At some point Kiev will have to cut off the whole eastern part of the country and let it sink. Russia will get what is wanted but be careful what you wish for. It may not be as good as you expect. There will be some twenty million people without gas and not necessities of life all Ethnic Russians all starving on the Russian border. Is this what you guys really because this is what is likely to happen.
I very rarely comment on this topic, but just a few personal comments and conversations i have been party to recently
So i am currently sitting 140km away from the border, we constantly see a stream of vehicles and supplies all with UA plates going to and from Russia, and no doubt Russian trucks are going that way too , but obviously the UA plates stand out more :)
We see UA plated cars in our town no biggie we always have, having some relatives in and around donetsk i have seen some pretty dire and gruesome pictures on phones etc, but the underlying fact is that in the far east and parts of Donetsk things are starting to happen and building work takes place people grow stuff again in the fields. Animals are raised again and life turns a little at a time
Russian banks are open we send money to grandmothers sister this way and she receives is able to get her medicine at the local apteka
Overall they are staunchly determined to be independent and say they will be their own people but say it will take many years before this happens, they also when asked about if they worry about full scale Ukrainian army presence again they say that they dont see how it could happen again like a couple of years ago, nobody has the appetite for it, especially Kiev as it wants the co operation of Europe and a full scale attack would dismantle all they seek to do.
Here in Russia , there is nothing of much interest on the TV about it these days a little from time to time on the Rostov Region news but more interesting life stories than political bashing, life goes on it has to
Grandmothers sister came to visit us last week, first time she has felt she can travel since the problems started and to see her grand daughter to whom we sheltered when the times were to bad for a 20 year old girl, her comments were its like just after the war years (2nd world war) where we all worked hard to rebuild our lives or mostly her parents did.but you can still see the pain it has caused her. The train now runs twice a day between just outside Donetsk and Rostov so the sisters are now reunited and can at least see each other both being nearly 80.
A few people here have started dealing into Donetsk region again, Ilya the guy i buy most of my heavy building materials sends a wagon at least once a week to the region to supply goods and he says its good business but always makes sure he gets paid first, no on account facilities on over the border transactions.
We went up to Pokrovskoye the other day to get a permit to build stamped and there was no sign of the tanks and military that had been there this time last year, the local English speaking administrator we know said they had gone just after summer last year, and the area now really is quite peaceful again. this town is on the main railway line from Rostov to Ukraine
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Hi Mark... thanks for the l'ocal take'... but you missed the coverage of the Nadezhda Savchenko 'show trial'! ))
.
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The attributes that made the Donbass region of Ukraine about the most productive in the whole country still remain. Of course the Kievan regime's practice of attacking infrastructure and capital assets set matters back but they can be repaired and returned to use. Some of the mines may be lost, but only some, and now that more of their revenues will remain in the region the benefits will accrue faster even with lowered output.
Restoration is a process not an event. Hopefully trade with Russia will return to its previous mode, minus taxes to Kiev. That process is, again, under way.
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Hi Mark... thanks for the l'ocal take'... but you missed the coverage of the Nadezhda Savchenko 'show trial'! ))
.
nope did not miss anything :coffeeread:
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Igor Strelkov says that Donbas is now much worse than it was before.
http://uawire.org/news/igor-strelkov-pro-russian-separatists-have-brought-poverty-and-ruin-to-the-donbas
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Igor Strelkov says that Donbas is now much worse than it was before.
http://uawire.org/news/igor-strelkov-pro-russian-separatists-have-brought-poverty-and-ruin-to-the-donbas
Thin is much closer to what I am getting back about Donbas. I know in September my girl's mother was starting to start to fix the house from shell damage as she felt the war was over. But since has become less excited about the future of the place. The other thing that often people do not realize is how many old people have been left in Donbas. Most of the people that move to western Ukraine or Russia were working age families who did not have the funds to take their aging parents. My girls family all the twenty, thirty and forty something left the region. I understand this is common. Sparky is sending money to the grand parents and that is what happens on my end also. Her grand parents are also still living and live in Lugansk where her mother returned. All of my girl's sister, cousins, most of her middle aged friends also left. Some of the people late last year started to returned but I understand that has slowed down now.
My point earlier is the Ukraine government does not have the remaining means to survive in its present form without massive European support. I think in a couple of years this support will dry up and Ukraine will fall apart. Poroshenko can not pass the Minsk 2 agreement no matter how hard he tries . He just does not have the support in parliament and when there is new elections he will like be rendered pretty much powerless. The Ukraine government is becoming more dysfunctional as it is already starting divide up into regions. A new election will likely make this worse. You guys hate the Kiev government but wait until you see life without it.
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My point earlier is the Ukraine government does not have the remaining means to survive in its present form without massive European support. I think in a couple of years this support will dry up and Ukraine will fall apart. Poroshenko can not pass the Minsk 2 agreement no matter how hard he tries . He just does not have the support in parliament and when there is new elections he will like be rendered pretty much powerless. The Ukraine government is becoming more dysfunctional as it is already starting divide up into regions. A new election will likely make this worse. You guys hate the Kiev government but wait until you see life without it.
All countries the US interferes in, funds coups in or drops bombs on fall to bits afterwards. Why should Ukraine be any different? They accepted the poison chalice of "help" from the US, the leader was duly overthrown. What will now follow is decades of internal strife, civil war and corruption as we see elsewhere. There will be no easy fix.
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My point earlier is the Ukraine government does not have the remaining means to survive in its present form without massive European support. I think in a couple of years this support will dry up and Ukraine will fall apart. Poroshenko can not pass the Minsk 2 agreement no matter how hard he tries . He just does not have the support in parliament and when there is new elections he will like be rendered pretty much powerless. The Ukraine government is becoming more dysfunctional as it is already starting divide up into regions. A new election will likely make this worse. You guys hate the Kiev government but wait until you see life without it.
All countries the US interferes in, funds coups in or drops bombs on fall to bits afterwards. Why should Ukraine be any different? They accepted the poison chalice of "help" from the US, the leader was duly overthrown. What will now follow is decades of internal strife, civil war and corruption as we see elsewhere. There will be no easy fix.
Sure, Russia invading Eastern Ukraine with heavy tanks and artillery units had nothing to do with it at all. :fighting0025:
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Those medications that you are on, Ant, you might want to get the dosages checked. You may be hallucinating.
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Sure, Russia invading Eastern Ukraine with heavy tanks and artillery units had nothing to do with it at all. :fighting0025:
Someone sneezed, quick blame it on Putin.
Had Porky not attacked Donbass with military, it would still be peaceful today.
The military is never the answer to a civilian uprising.
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Sure, Russia invading Eastern Ukraine with heavy tanks and artillery units had nothing to do with it at all. :fighting0025:
Someone sneezed, quick blame it on Putin.
Had Porky not attacked Donbass with military, it would still be peaceful today.
The military is never the answer to a civilian uprising.
Except the uprising was not civilian, it was a well organized and financed military coup by Russian special forces, let by Strelkov. So your answer is partially correct.
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My point earlier is the Ukraine government does not have the remaining means to survive in its present form without massive European support. I think in a couple of years this support will dry up and Ukraine will fall apart. Poroshenko can not pass the Minsk 2 agreement no matter how hard he tries . He just does not have the support in parliament and when there is new elections he will like be rendered pretty much powerless. The Ukraine government is becoming more dysfunctional as it is already starting divide up into regions. A new election will likely make this worse. You guys hate the Kiev government but wait until you see life without it.
All countries the US interferes in, funds coups in or drops bombs on fall to bits afterwards. Why should Ukraine be any different? They accepted the poison chalice of "help" from the US, the leader was duly overthrown. What will now follow is decades of internal strife, civil war and corruption as we see elsewhere. There will be no easy fix.
That is your old favorite line. If something goes wrong anywhere on the planet blame the USA. I know Russia had nothing to do with it. Ukraine was in a bad way before maiden. These awful people wanting to better their lives be more Europeans surely that gave Russia the right to make them pay for it.
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My point earlier is the Ukraine government does not have the remaining means to survive in its present form without massive European support. I think in a couple of years this support will dry up and Ukraine will fall apart. Poroshenko can not pass the Minsk 2 agreement no matter how hard he tries . He just does not have the support in parliament and when there is new elections he will like be rendered pretty much powerless. The Ukraine government is becoming more dysfunctional as it is already starting divide up into regions. A new election will likely make this worse. You guys hate the Kiev government but wait until you see life without it.
All countries the US interferes in, funds coups in or drops bombs on fall to bits afterwards. Why should Ukraine be any different? They accepted the poison chalice of "help" from the US, the leader was duly overthrown. What will now follow is decades of internal strife, civil war and corruption as we see elsewhere. There will be no easy fix.
That is your old favorite line. If something goes wrong anywhere on the planet blame the USA. I know Russia had nothing to do with it. Ukraine was in a bad way before maiden. These awful people wanting to better their lives be more Europeans surely that gave Russia the right to make them pay for it.
That's it in a nutshell. Due to Russian hubris thousands died. Nothing to do with the USA except they needed a scapegoat.
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You boys remember that Nuland woman there right? Kerry? McCain? US mercenaries? The US funding? The NGOs? The arms supplies routed through Lithuania? You haven't been reading here methinks. Are your browsers locked on to the New York Times?
Next you will tell us you didn't interfere in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan or Syria*, and that was all Russian aggression too right? :whist11:
You do know you hail from the country that is the worlds most prolific terrorist group, yes? One that has systematically invaded nation after nation for decades? That the US government kills so many people abroad it makes ISIS look like a kids tea party? Maybe you missed it as you were in the toilet or something.......
*Apart from Putin stopped your planned regime change in Syria.
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Russia insider agrees and claim George Soros paid for maiden. That is what I wrote more than a year ago but then of course I was full of $#%^
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/guess-whos-funding-anti-trump-protests/ri13581
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You boys remember that Nuland woman there right? Kerry? McCain? US mercenaries? The US funding? The NGOs? The arms supplies routed through Lithuania? You haven't been reading here methinks. Are your browsers locked on to the New York Times?
Some of these boys have the attention spans of fruit flies; you can't expect them to remember yesterday, much less have the ability to think critically (or at all).
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You boys remember that Nuland woman there right? Kerry? McCain? US mercenaries? The US funding? The NGOs? The arms supplies routed through Lithuania? You haven't been reading here methinks. Are your browsers locked on to the New York Times?
Next you will tell us you didn't interfere in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan or Syria*, and that was all Russian aggression too right? :whist11:
You do know you hail from the country that is the worlds most prolific terrorist group, yes? One that has systematically invaded nation after nation for decades? That the US government kills so many people abroad it makes ISIS look like a kids tea party? Maybe you missed it as you were in the toilet or something.......
*Apart from Putin stopped your planned regime change in Syria.
Looks like you're a bit confused. It was the Soviet Union which first enacted regime change in Afghanistan, and that bit of folly led to their demise. Seems you don't like to admit that when the locals don't like the heavy Soviet or Russian way of doing things, they sometimes look for a better way of doing things, in other words they prefer Western freedoms. In the case of Ukraine it's Russia who has deliberately bankrupted them. Now they may have no choice but to make a deal with the Devil Russians.
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You boys remember that Nuland woman there right? Kerry? McCain? US mercenaries? The US funding? The NGOs? The arms supplies routed through Lithuania? You haven't been reading here methinks. Are your browsers locked on to the New York Times?
Some of these boys have the attention spans of fruit flies; you can't expect them to remember yesterday, much less have the ability to think critically (or at all).
The other thing that was really stupid was US mercenaries. No one if there right mind would send US mercenary to the Ukraine. They cost too much and too much of a political liability. Duh. Russia send volunteers that were paid buy the Russian government now that is what I call mercenaries. Then the vacation Russian army people who were encourage to take there holiday in the Ukraine with their tanks. No real amount of weapons ever came from the US that meant anything in the war. But Russia had number of tanks where you see the emblem that under the thin coat of paint that you could see. Of course no here could possibility believe the Putin lied.
The Russian was medaling in the Ukraine long before maiden and caused a shift away from Europe that set the whole thing off. Another point you seem to not want to believe.
All I ever saw in the way of weapons that made it the Ukraine was a handful of European rifle, some US radar systems. Our weapons are really different and if anything large was sent they would really stand out. McCain wanting to send weapons but never could get approval so what wanting to and doing are two different things.
My girl was in Lugansk at this time. She told me about Russian coming to the city and organizing men to take over buildings before all this started.
Only the complete stupid would believe that Russia had no involvement.
Yes Tom I remember the whole thing when we discussed it before. I never agreed but some time it is just not worth the discussion when people are so bias that can not see anything that is in front of them. The only critical thinking I have seen you do is post someone else's article. At least Andrew will actually write something more than two lines.
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You boys remember that Nuland woman there right? Kerry? McCain? US mercenaries? The US funding? The NGOs? The arms supplies routed through Lithuania? You haven't been reading here methinks. Are your browsers locked on to the New York Times?
Some of these boys have the attention spans of fruit flies; you can't expect them to remember yesterday, much less have the ability to think critically (or at all).
Yes Tom I remember the whole thing when we discussed it before. I never agreed but some time it is just not worth the discussion when people are so bias that can not see anything that is in front of them. The only critical thinking I have seen you do is post someone else's article. At least Andrew will actually write something more than two lines.
Tom always hopes that nobody notices his two lines are mostly histrionics. :ROFL:
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This is the story of a Ukrainian Chemical company which had been based in Donetsk, but they decided to move to Cherkasy in order to survive and keep going.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/03/26/how-a-chemical-plant-moved-out-of-donetsk/#arvlbdata
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It is unproductive to write more than a few lines to an audience that won't remember what was conveyed in the first line by the time that they finish reading the second. Here is a transcript of the leaked Nuland/Pratt conversation with some commentary that should be simple enough for anyone to understand:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Of course, you "remember the whole thing."
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It is unproductive to write more than a few lines to an audience that won't remember what was conveyed in the first line by the time that they finish reading the second. Here is a transcript of the leaked Nuland/Pratt conversation with some commentary that should be simple enough for anyone to understand:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Of course, you "remember the whole thing."
This phone call was after maiden was over and they were forming a new government. It does not show any involvement in the maiden up rising itself. The US was encouraging to the Ukraine at this point as they here asking for help.
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You know many phone calls Nuland made was leaked giving full insight to everyone what happened. The fact they were no phone calls in September of even October shows we had no pre knowledge of the event and did not plan it. We only recommend certain people to cabinet position which some of them got that position. Not much of a reason for Russia to destroy the whole country.
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It is unproductive to write more than a few lines to an audience that won't remember what was conveyed in the first line by the time that they finish reading the second. Here is a transcript of the leaked Nuland/Pratt conversation with some commentary that should be simple enough for anyone to understand:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Of course, you "remember the whole thing."
Nice try pal.
You didn't deal with the allegation of US Mercenaries, because there were none.
You didn't deal with the allegation of US heavy weaponry, because there was none.
A silly convo between Nuland and Pyatt? So what. As if the Russians didn't have any.
Now let me give you something real. Let's see if you can read it and comprehend it.
This is a statement of the Russian GRU (Russian special forces) Colonel about his involvement.
Quote:
"Igor “Strelkov” Girkin, the ex-“Defense Minister” of the “DNR”, admitted in an interview in November he was the one who “pulled the trigger” of the war in Donbas by creating this unit in Crimea from Russian and local volunteers:
“I was the one who pressed the trigger of that war. If our unit had not crossed the border, it would have all ended as it did in Kharkov or Odesa. Several dozen casualties, those with burns and those arrested. And that would have been the end of it… It was practically our unit, which got this ongoing war moving.”
end quote.
http://euromaidanpress.com/seven-reasons/
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in other words they (Markje:Afghanistan) prefer Western freedoms.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously anymore after this.
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And still some yanks don't get it.
NATO wrenched Ukraine from Russia's orbit as part of their world expansion and the plans for a Sevastopol naval base on the black sea were going great, leaving Russia to find somewhere else. So, the Federation becomes involved and a quick polling of public opinion in Crimea shows a majority support for it to be returned under Russian control and the gift is once again back in the owners pocket.
Washington as usual, decides not to recognise the referendum because the decision doesn't suit their foreign policy and claims everything to be illegal under international law. Embargo's are put in place and much hand wringing at the thought of Russian's turning on their leader, brings much anticipation and excitement. I mean.....who doesn't like a good old regime change?
The rest is history but you guys still think you had nothing to do with it? Your press blames Putin for anything they can and sadly, guys like Texan still lap it up - Mind you, if you still refer to Ukraine as The Ukraine....what hope do you have?!
As a side note, there's not been much joy coming from the Obama camp regarding the successful capture of Palmyra from IS. According to them, Russia were only bombing women and children but they appear to have done more good in 6 months than the coalition has in 4 years. Surely the wests failure to manage Syria needs to be looked at and compare strategies with Russia...............or would that be too damning for themselves?
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No Western White Knight Coming to Ukraine's Rescue
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/reality-check-forbes-there-no-western-white-knight-coming-ukraines-rescue/ri13597
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Fortunately, President Trump will be disbanding NATO or massively decreasing the USA's financial support... currently, USA pays for 70% of NATO's budget and the member states pay only for their countries participation in scheduled exercises.
Since the USA derives ZERO financial benefit from NATO and considering the original Threat NATO was created to counter-balance, the Soviet Union, no longer exists and that the Russian Federation is one of the EU's largest Trading Partners there is no longer any compelling need for NATO and time for all USA troops to come home and the 500 Million plus Europeans will have to decide if they want to defend themselves or surrender to the Islamist Hordes invading the Social Democrat European countries to transition to Sharia law across the continent. Since the major European powers seem intent on full capitulation to Sharia invaders no need for the USA to pay even $1 USD in support of this mass surrender by the native White self-loathing Europeans.
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in other words they (Markje:Afghanistan) prefer Western freedoms.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously anymore after this.
Believing the Euromaiden Press (reply #2750) displays a break with reality of the same order as a Trump "landslide."
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USA pays for 70% of NATO's budget
And it does 100% of your bidding; I call that a 30% discount.
Since the USA derives ZERO financial benefit from NATO
Its a bugger all that the oil and utility companies, rebuilding contracts, etc that relatives of your politicians get slotted into after your regime changes make such a loss. :chuckle:
and considering the original Threat NATO was created to counter-balance, the Soviet Union, no longer exists and that the Russian Federation is one of the EU's largest Trading Partners there is no longer any compelling need for NATO
By jove, I believe he has got it.
Believing the Euromaiden Press (reply #2750) displays a break with reality of the same order as a Trump "landslide."
I saw that bit of *proof* too.
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And still some yanks don't get it.
I have to wonder if there is a double-entendre hidden in there somewhere.
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It will be quite a sight to watch all of the militant liberal Marxist Feminist LGBTQstds Social Justice Warriors and Papal Liberation Theologists heads exploding in concert as a reaction to when on November 4th, 2016 we have a Landslide election favoring President Elect Trump.
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on November 4th, 2016 we have a Landslide election favoring President Elect Trump.
Yes, we can all watch the US go to hell in a hand basket together, never knowing what new wars Mrs Clinton would have started.
Y'all stay classy over the pond now. tiphat
And still some yanks don't get it.
I have to wonder if there is a double-entendre hidden in there somewhere.
I heard that one shoot over their heads like a Russian missile.
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The fox said to the Little Prince: "Being subtle gets you past the censors but the yankers don't get the joke."
The Little Prince replied: "Nothing is perfect."
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Errata bold text equals corrected facts
USA pays for 70% of NATO's budget
And it does 100% of your bidding as directed by the Crown, Parliament and 10 Downing Street via the Crown's Rothschilds Globalist bankers controlled ownership of the so-called Federal Reserve; I call that a 30% discount.
Since the USA derives ZERO financial benefit from NATO
Its a bugger all that the oil and utility companies, rebuilding contracts, etc that relatives of your politicians get slotted into after your regime changes make such a loss. :chuckle:
and considering the original Threat NATO was created to counter-balance, the Soviet Union, no longer exists and that the Russian Federation is one of the EU's largest Trading Partners there is no longer any compelling need for NATO
By jove, I believe he has got it.
Believing the Euromaiden Press (reply #2750) displays a break with reality of the same order as a Trump "landslide."
I saw that bit of *proof* too.
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Fortunately, President Trump will be disbanding NATO or massively decreasing the USA's financial support... currently, USA pays for 70% of NATO's budget and the member states pay only for their countries participation in scheduled exercises.
Since the USA derives ZERO financial benefit from NATO and considering the original Threat NATO was created to counter-balance, the Soviet Union, no longer exists and that the Russian Federation is one of the EU's largest Trading Partners there is no longer any compelling need for NATO and time for all USA troops to come home and the 500 Million plus Europeans will have to decide if they want to defend themselves or surrender to the Islamist Hordes invading the Social Democrat European countries to transition to Sharia law across the continent. Since the major European powers seem intent on full capitulation to Sharia invaders no need for the USA to pay even $1 USD in support of this mass surrender by the native White self-loathing Europeans.
Amen.
You might also be surprised to find that the shit spread far and wide from 'NATO' intervention, won't stick to the European walls quite so much. I'd also suggest you think again, if you believe the Europeans to be so liberal and easy. Sure, we've got folk like Moby to give wrong impressions of public opinion but you boys on the far coast, are hardly singing in unison!!
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And still some yanks don't get it.
I have to wonder if there is a double-entendre hidden in there somewhere.
Dadum tshhh....
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Can anyone please tell me exactly what NATO's main role in Europe was in the past, and what it is today.?
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in other words they (Markje:Afghanistan) prefer Western freedoms.
:ROFL:
I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously anymore after this.
Believing the Euromaiden Press (reply #2750) displays a break with reality of the same order as a Trump "landslide."
If you weren't so busy being yourself you could read Igor Girkin's words in a Russian source in Russian.
As it is the man who was the brains of the Crimean exercise and who started the conflict in the Donbas has enormous more credibility than you or anyone else on this forum.
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I'd also suggest you think again, if you believe the Europeans to be so liberal and easy. Sure, we've got folk like Moby to give wrong impressions of public opinion but you boys on the far coast, are hardly singing in unison!!
Roscoe, when 'trying' to discredit an opponents perspective - it pays to portray their stance - accurately...
1/ There was no written agreement from NATO to 'stand still' re membership /expansion
2/ Events in Ukraine and Georgia have only proved that seeking membership means being 'interfered with' by Moscow - thus being the single most reason for seeking the protection of NATO's Article 5...
I guess I'm a 'liberal' in preferring that money that will now go to increased expenditure on military defence - that should have gone to education / health, etc
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I'd also suggest you think again, if you believe the Europeans to be so liberal and easy. Sure, we've got folk like Moby to give wrong impressions of public opinion but you boys on the far coast, are hardly singing in unison!!
Roscoe, when 'trying' to discredit an opponents perspective - it pays to portray their stance - accurately...
1/ There was no written agreement from NATO to 'stand still' re membership /expansion
Yet there was an agreement. Apparently you have to get it all in paper, or NATO shafts you, as Russia learned the painful way. You'd think nations act honorably, but alas...... And yes, that conversation was on Tape , recorded as most important meetings are.
2/ Events in Ukraine and Georgia have only proved that seeking membership means being 'interfered with' by Moscow - thus being the single most reason for seeking the protection of NATO's Article 5...
Lets see Russia try to put nukes on Cuba again, now that things finally normalize there. Other countries are no choir-boys in this case. They all defend their own interests.
Mark.
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Ant, the bloke did NOT start the conflict on the Donbas. He was not the brains of the 'Crimean exercise'.
He was a significant figure, acting on his own initiative, and some of the exploits that he and his men got up to were absolutely noteworthy. It would also be true to suggest that there is a significant possibility that without his intervention the already started resistance would not have been anything like as effective as it was. But he was not what you have been persuaded he is.
(I thought that you were keeping up to speed with this stuff back then - how short a memory you have, or how easily manipulated you are.)
There's little reason to give him much credence these days for statements he makes about events of 2014. If you want to know something of what actually happened, albeit through the blinkers of first person perspective, then look at what was being written by himself at the time, and, for context, by those around him.
A good source would be this site: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.ee/ On those pages are many, if not all, of the guy's reports from the time as well as contemporaneous reports from those who had to deal with him.
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I'd also suggest you think again, if you believe the Europeans to be so liberal and easy. Sure, we've got folk like Moby to give wrong impressions of public opinion but you boys on the far coast, are hardly singing in unison!!
Roscoe, when 'trying' to discredit an opponents perspective - it pays to portray their stance - accurately...
1/ There was no written agreement from NATO to 'stand still' re membership /expansion
Yet there was an agreement. Apparently you have to get it all in paper, or NATO shafts you, as Russia learned the painful way. You'd think nations act honorably, but alas...... And yes, that conversation was on Tape , recorded as most important meetings are.
2/ Events in Ukraine and Georgia have only proved that seeking membership means being 'interfered with' by Moscow - thus being the single most reason for seeking the protection of NATO's Article 5...
Lets see Russia try to put nukes on Cuba again, now that things finally normalize there. Other countries are no choir-boys in this case. They all defend their own interests.
Mark.
Bang on.
That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
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I'd also suggest you think again, if you believe the Europeans to be so liberal and easy. Sure, we've got folk like Moby to give wrong impressions of public opinion but you boys on the far coast, are hardly singing in unison!!
Roscoe, when 'trying' to discredit an opponents perspective - it pays to portray their stance - accurately...
1/ There was no written agreement from NATO to 'stand still' re membership /expansion
2/ Events in Ukraine and Georgia have only proved that seeking membership means being 'interfered with' by Moscow - thus being the single most reason for seeking the protection of NATO's Article 5...
I guess I'm a 'liberal' in preferring that money that will now go to increased expenditure on military defence - that should have gone to education / health, etc
Just to get something straight that seems to be misunderstood by many people (mostly Americans, oh, and moby), Georgia initiated that conflict by first invading and attacking South Ossetia. The American puppet Psychoshvili (Saakashvili) gambled and mistakenly thought he had America's 100% backing (:). He didn't. Sound familiar?
Russia quickly bitchslapped the Georgian army back to Tbilisi, again in retaliation. Sound familiar?
I do find it interesting that many in the West seem to forget this little fact. That propaganda machine at its best; nice to see the LA Times flushed it out with an article by Lira Tskhovrebova and a quick backpedal condemnation from the US and Britain.
Not that unusual that many here look at symptoms and not the disease.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-oew-tskhovrebova17-2008nov17-story.html
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I'd also suggest you think again, if you believe the Europeans to be so liberal and easy. Sure, we've got folk like Moby to give wrong impressions of public opinion but you boys on the far coast, are hardly singing in unison!!
Roscoe, when 'trying' to discredit an opponents perspective - it pays to portray their stance - accurately...
1/ There was no written agreement from NATO to 'stand still' re membership /expansion
2/ Events in Ukraine and Georgia have only proved that seeking membership means being 'interfered with' by Moscow - thus being the single most reason for seeking the protection of NATO's Article 5...
I guess I'm a 'liberal' in preferring that money that will now go to increased expenditure on military defence - that should have gone to education / health, etc
Just to get something straight that seems to be misunderstood by many people (mostly Americans, oh, and moby), Georgia initiated that conflict by first invading and attacking South Ossetia. The American puppet Psychoshvili (Saakashvili) gambled and mistakenly thought he had America's 100% backing (:). He didn't. Sound familiar?
Russia quickly bitchslapped the Georgian army back to Tbilisi, again in retaliation. Sound familiar?
I do find it interesting that many in the West seem to forget this little fact. That propaganda machine at its best; nice to see the LA Times flushed it out with an article by Lira Tskhovrebova and a quick backpedal condemnation from the US and Britain.
Not that unusual that many here look at symptoms and not the disease.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-oew-tskhovrebova17-2008nov17-story.html
I'd like to confirm what Dan said. My Georgian aid dislikes the Russians very much but he has admitted to me that Saakashvili was snookered by GW Bush and Condi Rice both who traveled to Georgia and were given a huge reception. Saakashvili even had a street named after Bush. See my photo I took below a few weeks ago.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k131/Maxx_1953/GWB_zpskzuvr4au.jpg)
According to my aid after the war all foreign investment stopped and the Georgian economy has suffered from lack of growth. Of course Saakashvili fled and now is in exile. He was made the governor of Odessa. Saakashvili is a Ukrainian citizen. Speaks Ukrainian. Apparently he was made a leading politician in Ukraine to help clean out corruption (for Ukraine's economic development) like he did in Georgia. I've heard from a number of Georgians that Saakashvili did a lot of good things for Georgia. But he sure blew it with that concocted by the neo-cons war. Again, so I've been told.
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That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
Post of the week. :bow:
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That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
Post of the week. :bow:
So you admit that Russia did indeed invade Eastern Ukraine? All that's really missing is Putin joking about it publicly and passing out ribbons to the Russian soldiers involved in this fiasco.
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That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
Post of the week. :bow:
So you admit that Russia did indeed invade Eastern Ukraine? All that's really missing is Putin joking about it publicly and passing out ribbons to the Russian soldiers involved in this fiasco.
You might want to clean your spectacles. His post says nothing of the sort. :rolleye0009:
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That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
Post of the week. :bow:
So you admit that Russia did indeed invade Eastern Ukraine? All that's really missing is Putin joking about it publicly and passing out ribbons to the Russian soldiers involved in this fiasco.
You might want to clean your spectacles. His post says nothing of the sort. :rolleye0009:
Give it a couple of years. Putin will be joking about the invasion of Ukraine and handing out ribbons. Just like he did with Crimea. And you and the usual suspects will be making justifications for it. :coffeeread:
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That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
Post of the week. :bow:
So you admit that Russia did indeed invade Eastern Ukraine? All that's really missing is Putin joking about it publicly and passing out ribbons to the Russian soldiers involved in this fiasco.
You might want to clean your spectacles. His post says nothing of the sort. :rolleye0009:
Give it a couple of years. Putin will be joking about the invasion of Ukraine and handing out ribbons. Just like he did with Crimea. And you and the usual suspects will be making justifications for it. :coffeeread:
Your vituperative dishonesty, whilst not unexpected, is again noted.
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In a couple of years, Crimea will still be part of Russia, the separatists in Donbass will still be separate and Kiev will have new leaders to take them to hell in a handbasket.
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Your vituperative dishonesty, whilst not unexpected, is again noted.
Irony alert...
Anteros is describing antics that have already taken place - Peskov - Putin's press secretary - was therefore 'ill advised' to go on the BBC and suggest otherwise - re the involvement of Russian troops to create the circumstances for the 'peaceful, no shots fired' removal of Ukraine's control over the peninsula - followed by the 'referendum' that was roundly condemned - UN Votes ?.....
TomT
42 years ago Turkey occupied / liberated the northern part of Turkey and Crimea will be in the same boat... surreal isolation
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In a couple of years, Crimea will still be part of Russia, the separatists in Donbass will still be separate and Kiev will have new leaders to take them to hell in a handbasket.
In a couple of year Ukraine will be divided up is to five or six pieces, Donbas will no longer be needed by Russia will be a forgotten waste land like the much rest of the Eastern Ukraine.
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That's the whole point most people don't get when demonising Russia. We the west, AKA the good guys, are allowed to spread 'democracy' around the globe and install 'good guys' in government for those poor countries. It's entirely coincidental that the new governments have a positive outlook on US foreign policy. Meanwhile, as the 'West' expands and pulls countries out of Russia's sphere of influence, Russia are nothing but war mongering expansionists with an evil leader at the helm, for looking after the Federations interests.
As you say, NATO missiles set-up along the Eastern European border is a good thing but Russian missiles in Cuba is an antagonistic, threat to world security.
It seems to me that you can give it out but you can't take it.
Post of the week. :bow:
So you admit that Russia did indeed invade Eastern Ukraine? All that's really missing is Putin joking about it publicly and passing out ribbons to the Russian soldiers involved in this fiasco.
You might want to clean your spectacles. His post says nothing of the sort. :rolleye0009:
Give it a couple of years. Putin will be joking about the invasion of Ukraine and handing out ribbons. Just like he did with Crimea. And you and the usual suspects will be making justifications for it. :coffeeread:
Your vituperative dishonesty, whilst not unexpected, is again noted.
That's a nice big word. While I had a pretty good idea of it's meaning, I admit needing to look it up to be sure.
Now let's go to the horses mouth, so to speak, and examine what the head honcho had to say about this. I think you should apologize for twisting the truth. In any event I suspect Russia will admit their actions within a few years.
What Mr. Putin said here is clear enough of his real sentiments and of what Russia's real actions were. Clearly Putin decided to be careful about this as he thought that Obama might actually have a pair, which has been proven decisively not to be the case. But I digress. Here are the words of the President of the Russian Federation on the matter.
Quote:
MOSCOW — A confident President Vladimir Putin on Thursday used his annual televised meeting with the nation to portray a powerful Russia — one that is dismissive of the West, had troops operating in Crimea even as it denied it and regards a large swath of southeastern Ukraine as historically part of its territory.
Somewhat ominously, Putin reminded his audience that Russia’s parliament has given him the authority to send troops into Ukraine. Southeastern Ukraine — including the cities of Lugansk, Kharkov, Donetsk and Odessa — had been part of the Russian empire, called New Russia, he pointed out. The Soviet Union turned it over to Ukraine. “Why? Let God judge them.” The argument was reminiscent of the one he had made earlier about Crimea, which was given to Ukraine in 1954.
end quote.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-changes-course-admits-russian-troops-were-in-crimea-before-vote/2014/04/17/b3300a54-c617-11e3-bf7a-be01a9b69cf1_story.html
My comment: I agree with Russia that historically, Ukraine and Russia have been joined. Not always willingly it seems, but certainly they have a very good argument that it is their concern, and not that of the West. Having said that -- if Hillary Clinton manages to be elected -- I predict a conflict with Russia as a deep possibility. Gypsy agrees with me on this. OTOH if Trump manages to win, which right now is not looking good, then there will be peace.
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In a couple of years, Crimea will still be part of Russia, the separatists in Donbass will still be separate and Kiev will have new leaders to take them to hell in a handbasket.
In a couple of year Ukraine will be divided up is to five or six pieces, Donbas will no longer be needed by Russia will be a forgotten waste land like the much rest of the Eastern Ukraine.
Bankrupting and humiliating Ukraine was clearly Russia's goal. Whether or not it gets as bad as you are predicting remains to be seen. Just look at what happened to the two former provinces of Georgia to see what is in store for the Donbas.
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Texan,
Do you have a prediction about what country will get what piece of Ukraine?
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Texan,
Do you have a prediction about what country will get what piece of Ukraine?
Personally I hope all or most of Western Ukraine gets absorbed by Poland. Then re-educate the Ukrainian hicks about their real history by disallowing the white washing of their Nazi collaboration. And force them to take down those Bandera statues.
Central Ukraine, from Kiev down to Odessa, as far West as Vinnitsya and as far East as Kharkov and Dnipro, deserve to remain Ukraine, IMO.
Donetsk and Lugansk will likely become like Transnistra.
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Anteros is describing antics that have already taken place - Peskov - Putin's press secretary - was therefore 'ill advised' to go on the BBC and suggest otherwise - re the involvement of Russian troops to create the circumstances for the 'peaceful, no shots fired' removal of Ukraine's control over the peninsula - followed by the 'referendum' that was roundly condemned - UN Votes ?.....
Anteros/Manny were dishing it out over donbass. Nothing of the sort has happened there.
Please pay attention to the topic at hand and do not wander off aimlessly.
Mark.
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Donetsk and Lugansk will likely become like Transnistra.
Donetsk and Lugansk will likely become part of Russia eventually.
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Ant, Transniestria is as it is because it is an enclave, between two other states that, these days as opposed to how matters were until recently, is treated by both those neighbours in a somewhat hostile manner. In addition Transniestria has no access to the sea and is thus entirely dependent upon its neigbours for external ground connections. The LPR/DPR does not have these disadvantages and thus can not end up as Transniestria.
maps people, maps!
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Texan,
Do you have a prediction about what country will get what piece of Ukraine?
Tom, I do not think there is a person on the planet that knows how the Ukraine is going to end up other than it can not survive like it is. With tuff economic time to come in the next couple of years for the global economies, I doubt there will be many countries that will want much of the Ukraine. The west of Ukraine has gas fields and maybe able to support itself but even it will not be able to produce any kind of whapping profit. Poland might be a nice match for them but Russia would likely invade as that would have NATO moving west again. If any of you guys have ever been to western Ukraine it is just normal people try to make a living and raise families. The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine. They have more national ideality with their country. Somehow Russia has managed to paint this as horrible as they will never fit back into Russia again.
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The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine.
Did that little untrue gem come from Moby's copy of the EU Guide to Ukraine edited by Victoria Nuland with a foreword by Dick Cheney?
I think you will find there are pockets of people speaking either/or all over the place.
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
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Tom, I do not think there is a person on the planet that knows how the Ukraine is going to end up other than it can not survive like it is.
You wrote: "Ukraine will be divided up is (sic) to five or six pieces." It read as though you knew something that I didn't.
My prediction is that Russia will either get free land access to the former Novorossiya (more or less) or they will take it. This will certainly take longer than a couple of years to accomplish, not because they couldn't do it but because their priority is to get Crimea fully functional and to complete the Kerch bridge. Another issue is that it wouldn't be to their advantage to reduce the chance that some future IMF funds might be used to pay Kiev's gas arrearage.
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Vladimir Putin sent Russian mercenaries to 'fight in Syria and Ukraine'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12207659/Vladimir-Putin-sent-Russian-mercenaries-to-fight-in-Syria-and-Ukraine.html
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Putin's shadow government for Donbass exposed
http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-konflikt/donbass-shadow-government-45102202.bild.html
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
It's like when I was working in Swansea for the DVLA, even the lifts spoke Welsh at DVLA Morriston, 'Flwr Pedwan'.....
Not one person I ever met spoke Welsh and I was there for two lot's of six months.
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The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine.
Did that little untrue gem come from Moby's copy of the EU Guide to Ukraine edited by Victoria Nuland with a foreword by Dick Cheney?
I think you will find there are pockets of people speaking either/or all over the place.
I did not read any bodies guide so I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course, I have not been everywhere in western Ukraine just comments I get when talking to my girlfriend. In Zaporozhe her son goes to school in Ukrainian but when he was in Lugansk he went to school in Russian. She tells me when on the streets of Zaporozhe nearly one speaks in Russian. In Ivona Frantovsk nearly everyone speaks in Ukrainian on the streets and in the stores. I am sure if you only spoke Russian you would get along just fine in Ivona Frantovsk but you would likely not understand what other people are saying to each other.
I plan to be going back Ivona Frantovsk in May. Is there anything I should look for? We are going to start work on fixing up the interior of her new flat. I should have time to talk to a lot of different people while I am there. In December when we bought the flat it was my girls first trip to Ivona Frantovsk and she was surprised how different it was from Kiev in cultural and language. Her sister moved there and that is why she picked this city to move to.
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Crimea and Donbass - A Tale of Two Cities
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/crimea-and-donbass-tale-two-cities/ri13674
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The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine.
Did that little untrue gem come from Moby's copy of the EU Guide to Ukraine edited by Victoria Nuland with a foreword by Dick Cheney?
I think you will find there are pockets of people speaking either/or all over the place.
I did not read any bodies guide so I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course, I have not been everywhere in western Ukraine just comments I get when talking to my girlfriend. In Zaporozhe her son goes to school in Ukrainian but when he was in Lugansk he went to school in Russian. She tells me when on the streets of Zaporozhe nearly one speaks in Russian. In Ivona Frantovsk nearly everyone speaks in Ukrainian on the streets and in the stores. I am sure if you only spoke Russian you would get along just fine in Ivona Frantovsk but you would likely not understand what other people are saying to each other.
I plan to be going back Ivona Frantovsk in May. Is there anything I should look for? We are going to start work on fixing up the interior of her new flat. I should have time to talk to a lot of different people while I am there. In December when we bought the flat it was my girls first trip to Ivona Frantovsk and she was surprised how different it was from Kiev in cultural and language. Her sister moved there and that is why she picked this city to move to.
First of all it's Ivano Frankivsk. Second of all throughout most of West Ukraine they do indeed primarily speak Ukrainian, however most do indeed understand Russian and the many can switch back and forth between Ukrainian and Russian, at least the more educated ones can and probably all or most of the younger University educated ones can. Some of the elderly may only be able to speak Ukrainian, but they could understand a friend who spoke Russian.
I agree with you that most people in West Ukraine are good people just trying to live life and raise families. They do have a bit of a dark stain on their past in regards to collaboration with Nazi's back during the onset of WWII but of course most will say they only did that as they thought the Nazi's were the lesser of two evils -- the Bolshevik's under Lenin and Stalin being the other. That's all old history but many in that area don't know the extent of how much of their own history has been whitewashed for propaganda purposes. Sure the ones who still love and support Bandera, ie Banderista's are a small percentage, but Russia was able to use that against them.
I hope you have a good trip. Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano-Frankivsk_International_Airport
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Crimea and Donbass - A Tale of Two Cities
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/crimea-and-donbass-tale-two-cities/ri13674
Some propaganda in there, but overall a good article. But shouldn't it be in the Russian side on the subject of Ukraine?
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The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine.
Did that little untrue gem come from Moby's copy of the EU Guide to Ukraine edited by Victoria Nuland with a foreword by Dick Cheney?
I think you will find there are pockets of people speaking either/or all over the place.
I did not read any bodies guide so I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course, I have not been everywhere in western Ukraine just comments I get when talking to my girlfriend. In Zaporozhe her son goes to school in Ukrainian but when he was in Lugansk he went to school in Russian. She tells me when on the streets of Zaporozhe nearly one speaks in Russian. In Ivona Frantovsk nearly everyone speaks in Ukrainian on the streets and in the stores. I am sure if you only spoke Russian you would get along just fine in Ivona Frantovsk but you would likely not understand what other people are saying to each other.
I plan to be going back Ivona Frantovsk in May. Is there anything I should look for? We are going to start work on fixing up the interior of her new flat. I should have time to talk to a lot of different people while I am there. In December when we bought the flat it was my girls first trip to Ivona Frantovsk and she was surprised how different it was from Kiev in cultural and language. Her sister moved there and that is why she picked this city to move to.
Ivona Frantovsk :chuckle: never heard it called that before, it's amazing someone who has been there a few times can get the name so wrong (:)
Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
Yes flown in and out of Ivano Frankivsk International (that's a joke) Airport many many times, was there a month or so ago again, it's the best way to get to and from Kiev though. They are very proud they even have a new bus to take you from the plane to the airport building and there are numerous improvements now in this new International airport, eg they have put new light bulbs in the baggage hall, only about 50% of them don't work now :laugh: they now have proper seats in the departure lounge rather than the old garden furniture :), I say baggage hall, it's really a room about 15 metres square with a 50 year old conveyor that has been recycled numerous times and must be all of 10 metres long :laugh: it wasn't there last year though, they just used and old pickup truck to deliver baggage to the terminal, so they are moving forward and must be in the early 20th Century at least by now. Plenty more shocks in store at this place, even for the seasoned traveller. It's one amazing airport, it really has to be seen to be believed :chuckle:
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
-
In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
-
In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Im already dead :8)
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I hope you have a good trip. Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano-Frankivsk_International_Airport
I fly into Kiev then get a Ukrainian air flight to Ivano Frankivsk. There is one flight a day from Kiev to Ivano Frankivsk that leaves Kiev about 7 PM and one 7am in the morning that leaves Ivano Frankivsk for Kiev.
Thanks Andrew. The city is actually spelled different in different places to add to the confusion. Then I am a spell challenged person anyway.
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Ukraine is a bit of a bugger with all these places with very similar names.
I wonder how many times a day it happens that travelers intending to fly to Ivano Frankivsk end up in Ivona Frankivsk or Ivona Frantovsk in their tiny 'international' airports?
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Your not over there running about after those teeny boppers are you? :)
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Your not over there running about after those teeny boppers are you? :)
Just living the dream. :8)
And no teenagers are involved.
B/B
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Your not over there running about after those teeny boppers are you? :)
Just living the dream. :8)
And no teenagers are involved.
B/B
I thought you lived the dream in the USA? Or has it changed since the US took over Ukraine? More user friendly ?
-
In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Your not over there running about after those teeny boppers are you? :)
Just living the dream. :8)
And no teenagers are involved.
B/B
I thought you lived the dream in the USA? Or has it changed since the US took over Ukraine? More user friendly ?
I live the dream wherever I am. Also, the CEO of my firm recognizes that he pays me for PERFORMANCE, not ATTENDANCE, thus I have quite a bit of freedom to walk to and fro' upon the Earth and up and down in it, to put it one way. This week, it's Ukraine. A couple of weeks ago, it was Miami. In June it will be somewhere else, and so on.
At any rate, this thread is not about me, so....
B/B
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I hope you have a good trip. Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano-Frankivsk_International_Airport
I fly into Kiev then get a Ukrainian air flight to Ivano Frankivsk. There is one flight a day from Kiev to Ivano Frankivsk that leaves Kiev about 7 PM and one 7am in the morning that leaves Ivano Frankivsk for Kiev.
I am not Andrew, my moniker is Anteros. I'm not sure if you're interested however there's now a Turkish Airline (as of today, March 31st) which flies into Ivano Frankivsk from Istanbul. You could probably fly from Texas to Istanbul and then onto Ivano Frankivsk. You might want to check into that and see if it costs less and/or is a better connection (less overall transit time). Good luck again!
http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-int/flights-tickets/ivano-frankivsk/istanbul
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The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine.
Did that little untrue gem come from Moby's copy of the EU Guide to Ukraine edited by Victoria Nuland with a foreword by Dick Cheney?
I think you will find there are pockets of people speaking either/or all over the place.
I did not read any bodies guide so I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course, I have not been everywhere in western Ukraine just comments I get when talking to my girlfriend. In Zaporozhe her son goes to school in Ukrainian but when he was in Lugansk he went to school in Russian. She tells me when on the streets of Zaporozhe nearly one speaks in Russian. In Ivona Frantovsk nearly everyone speaks in Ukrainian on the streets and in the stores. I am sure if you only spoke Russian you would get along just fine in Ivona Frantovsk but you would likely not understand what other people are saying to each other.
I plan to be going back Ivona Frantovsk in May. Is there anything I should look for? We are going to start work on fixing up the interior of her new flat. I should have time to talk to a lot of different people while I am there. In December when we bought the flat it was my girls first trip to Ivona Frantovsk and she was surprised how different it was from Kiev in cultural and language. Her sister moved there and that is why she picked this city to move to.
Ivona Frantovsk :chuckle: never heard it called that before, it's amazing someone who has been there a few times can get the name so wrong (:)
Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
Yes flown in and out of Ivano Frankivsk International (that's a joke) Airport many many times, was there a month or so ago again, it's the best way to get to and from Kiev though. They are very proud they even have a new bus to take you from the plane to the airport building and there are numerous improvements now in this new International airport, eg they have put new light bulbs in the baggage hall, only about 50% of them don't work now :laugh: they now have proper seats in the departure lounge rather than the old garden furniture :), I say baggage hall, it's really a room about 15 metres square with a 50 year old conveyor that has been recycled numerous times and must be all of 10 metres long :laugh: it wasn't there last year though, they just used and old pickup truck to deliver baggage to the terminal, so they are moving forward and must be in the early 20th Century at least by now. Plenty more shocks in store at this place, even for the seasoned traveller. It's one amazing airport, it really has to be seen to be believed :chuckle:
I remember you saying that it was pretty "hinky" and you confirmed it. The photos made it look pretty basic so no surprise. Were you aware of the new flights from Istanbul? Not sure if that could save you some time and money as I recall a very long transit time for you of about 27 hours. :sick0012:
http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-int/flights-tickets/ivano-frankivsk/istanbul
-
In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Your not over there running about after those teeny boppers are you? :)
He prefers women in their early 20's. :laugh:
http://www.loveme.com/women/search.htm
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I wonder how many guys have been locked up for under age sex in the FSU countries ? Im speaking about guys searching for a wife but who get other ideas when they arrive :laugh:
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Is there anything I should look for?
I would keep an eye out for women looking to part you from your cash.
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^ That's good advice.
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In my experience, almost everyone I met on all my trips to Ukraine spoke Russian. I'm not proficient enough to say exclusively but when I raised the topic, everyone told me Russian was the tongue except government staff, public messages and documentation.
That's about the size of it. As a frequent visitor to Ukraine--in fact I am in Ukraine, now--I can advise that my shotgun Russian is understood wherever I go, and even Ukrainian patriot-types do not give me an hassle, if only b/c I am not a Russian speaking Russian to them.
There is a bit more anti-Russian sentiment at the moment because of the ongoing, illegal detention of Nadiya Savchenko by Russia. There's a big #FREESAVCHENKO billboard on the way in from KBP.
B/B
So whats happening in Ukraine today? What are you actually doing there??
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;D
B/B
Your not over there running about after those teeny boppers are you? :)
Just living the dream. :8)
And no teenagers are involved.
B/B
I thought you lived the dream in the USA? Or has it changed since the US took over Ukraine? More user friendly ?
I live the dream wherever I am. Also, the CEO of my firm recognizes that he pays me for PERFORMANCE, not ATTENDANCE, thus I have quite a bit of freedom to walk to and fro' upon the Earth and up and down in it, to put it one way. This week, it's Ukraine. A couple of weeks ago, it was Miami. In June it will be somewhere else, and so on.
Yeah baby... ;D
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I'm not sure if you're interested however there's now a Turkish Airline (as of today, March 31st) which flies ....
So now that the 'Flot is verboten in Ukr and I am faced with the option of CDG on Air Farce (the "never again" airline, although admittedly they do suck less now), or AMS (home of the English-speaking, America-loving (or at least willing to fake it with sincerity) Dutch), and then a 3 hour flight in not-really-business class, I decided to try Turkish.
Verdict: Amazing. The food was wonderful, and, much like with SVO, that long flight from JFK-IST affords plenty of time for sleep, and then a 2 hour hop to KBP or 1 and change to ODS. And the short leg, as with the 'Flot, is in a real business class. <angelic choir sings>
I parlayed my Delta Diamond card into mid-tier on Turkish which gets me into the CIP club in Istanbul as well as other Star Alliance clubs - chilled for an hour in the Lufthansa club at JFK before takeoff on this trip - and now that I've flown (or will complete shortly) one international trip on TK, I get to keep it for 2 years, and should easily be able to keep it beyond that with a few flights each year.
I wonder how many guys have been locked up for under age sex in the FSU countries ? Im speaking about guys searching for a wife but who get other ideas when they arrive :laugh:
I think that crowd typically heads to Asia. Specifically Thailand. Or so I'm told.
He prefers women in their early 20's. :laugh:
From a purely biological perspective, we all do (http://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attracted-to-women-in-their-20s-2014-10). It's a question of whether we can pull early 20s or not.
B/B
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Yeah baby... ;D
I have to say, I am not a fan of Miami. It just isn't a "service" town. My hotel was an exception, and my pal's local - I was down for a time on some 'side business' - is excellent, but you usually have at least one minor mistake with each order (not bad for Miami). It's also kind of 3rd worldish, now*, however as a former college athlete, I have showered with more black men then many of my liberalish friends can say that they have as friends...or acquaintances.
Anyway, the screwdrivers were f*cking AMAZING because....Florida oranges. And there are plenty of semi-naked women running around, particularly if you like dark meat.
B/B
*Miami isn't really the USA, it's more the capital of the Caribbean. IME, the best thing is to find a bartender from the North (bonus points for New England or NYC Metro) and tip heavy on the first round. Then all your troubles disappear.
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The speak Ukrainian not Russian in everyday life like eastern Ukraine.
Did that little untrue gem come from Moby's copy of the EU Guide to Ukraine edited by Victoria Nuland with a foreword by Dick Cheney?
I think you will find there are pockets of people speaking either/or all over the place.
I did not read any bodies guide so I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course, I have not been everywhere in western Ukraine just comments I get when talking to my girlfriend. In Zaporozhe her son goes to school in Ukrainian but when he was in Lugansk he went to school in Russian. She tells me when on the streets of Zaporozhe nearly one speaks in Russian. In Ivona Frantovsk nearly everyone speaks in Ukrainian on the streets and in the stores. I am sure if you only spoke Russian you would get along just fine in Ivona Frantovsk but you would likely not understand what other people are saying to each other.
I plan to be going back Ivona Frantovsk in May. Is there anything I should look for? We are going to start work on fixing up the interior of her new flat. I should have time to talk to a lot of different people while I am there. In December when we bought the flat it was my girls first trip to Ivona Frantovsk and she was surprised how different it was from Kiev in cultural and language. Her sister moved there and that is why she picked this city to move to.
Ivona Frantovsk :chuckle: never heard it called that before, it's amazing someone who has been there a few times can get the name so wrong (:)
Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
Yes flown in and out of Ivano Frankivsk International (that's a joke) Airport many many times, was there a month or so ago again, it's the best way to get to and from Kiev though. They are very proud they even have a new bus to take you from the plane to the airport building and there are numerous improvements now in this new International airport, eg they have put new light bulbs in the baggage hall, only about 50% of them don't work now :laugh: they now have proper seats in the departure lounge rather than the old garden furniture :), I say baggage hall, it's really a room about 15 metres square with a 50 year old conveyor that has been recycled numerous times and must be all of 10 metres long :laugh: it wasn't there last year though, they just used and old pickup truck to deliver baggage to the terminal, so they are moving forward and must be in the early 20th Century at least by now. Plenty more shocks in store at this place, even for the seasoned traveller. It's one amazing airport, it really has to be seen to be believed :chuckle:
I remember you saying that it was pretty "hinky" and you confirmed it. The photos made it look pretty basic so no surprise. Were you aware of the new flights from Istanbul? Not sure if that could save you some time and money as I recall a very long transit time for you of about 27 hours. :sick0012:
http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-int/flights-tickets/ivano-frankivsk/istanbul
Yes I know about the flights, we are always looking out for faster options, however, although they may well be available now, they might not be in a few months time, in the past we have flown into Ukraine, (various airports) from all over Europe, but the problem is, that the flights never tend to remain for long, whether they can't make them pay or not I don't know, but we may get to use a certain flight route one time, but rarely twice, except for the usual ones into Kiev.
PS the fastest we ever did it was around 18 - 19 hours via Romania, but they stopped those flights after we had done it the once, whatever route we manage to take its three flights anyway, just that occasionally we can get better connections which helps.
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I'm not sure if you're interested however there's now a Turkish Airline (as of today, March 31st) which flies ....
So now that the 'Flot is verboten in Ukr and I am faced with the option of CDG on Air Farce (the "never again" airline, although admittedly they do suck less now), or AMS (home of the English-speaking, America-loving (or at least willing to fake it with sincerity) Dutch), and then a 3 hour flight in not-really-business class, I decided to try Turkish.
Verdict: Amazing. The food was wonderful, and, much like with SVO, that long flight from JFK-IST affords plenty of time for sleep, and then a 2 hour hop to KBP or 1 and change to ODS. And the short leg, as with the 'Flot, is in a real business class. <angelic choir sings>
I parlayed my Delta Diamond card into mid-tier on Turkish which gets me into the CIP club in Istanbul as well as other Star Alliance clubs - chilled for an hour in the Lufthansa club at JFK before takeoff on this trip - and now that I've flown (or will complete shortly) one international trip on TK, I get to keep it for 2 years, and should easily be able to keep it beyond that with a few flights each year.
I wonder how many guys have been locked up for under age sex in the FSU countries ? Im speaking about guys searching for a wife but who get other ideas when they arrive :laugh:
I think that crowd typically heads to Asia. Specifically Thailand. Or so I'm told.
He prefers women in their early 20's. :laugh:
From a purely biological perspective, we all do (http://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attracted-to-women-in-their-20s-2014-10). It's a question of whether we can pull early 20s or not.
B/B
From a purely biological perspective, we all do. It's a question of whether we can pull early 20s or not.
The problem is as you get older lots of men can't give the young women the good sex she needs , they may all boast about it , but when the crunch comes its just a quick **** then roll over and go to sleep :laugh:
Then of course there is the matter of maybe she likes to go out for a dance some times , not all clubs or bars will allow a guy in with a zimmer frame especially if he's dribbling from the mouth..
So it maybe ok to catch one for a short term relationship (Which will usually be based on cash) Long term its not so easy to keep hold of a sexually active young women :chuckle:
Its probably the reason why so many grandfathers spend so many years in Ukraine :)
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Yeah baby... ;D
I have to say, I am not a fan of Miami. It just isn't a "service" town. My hotel was an exception, and my pal's local - I was down for a time on some 'side business' - is excellent, but you usually have at least one minor mistake with each order (not bad for Miami). It's also kind of 3rd worldish, now*, however as a former college athlete, I have showered with more black men then many of my liberalish friends can say that they have as friends...or acquaintances.
Anyway, the screwdrivers were f*cking AMAZING because....Florida oranges. And there are plenty of semi-naked women running around, particularly if you like dark meat.
B/B
*Miami isn't really the USA, it's more the capital of the Caribbean. IME, the best thing is to find a bartender from the North (bonus points for New England or NYC Metro) and tip heavy on the first round. Then all your troubles disappear.
When I posted that song it wasn't really in reference to Miami, it was in reference to you saying that your boss allowed a lot of travel time due to your exemplary work performance. In fact, I was thinking more of your international travel. :laugh:
However I enjoyed the sidebar about Miami. Care to share which hotels you stayed in there that you liked? Thanks.
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I'm not sure if you're interested however there's now a Turkish Airline (as of today, March 31st) which flies ....
So now that the 'Flot is verboten in Ukr and I am faced with the option of CDG on Air Farce (the "never again" airline, although admittedly they do suck less now), or AMS (home of the English-speaking, America-loving (or at least willing to fake it with sincerity) Dutch), and then a 3 hour flight in not-really-business class, I decided to try Turkish.
Verdict: Amazing. The food was wonderful, and, much like with SVO, that long flight from JFK-IST affords plenty of time for sleep, and then a 2 hour hop to KBP or 1 and change to ODS. And the short leg, as with the 'Flot, is in a real business class. <angelic choir sings>
At last, another poster realising the positives of this highly subsidised airline. Another benefit is the 30 Kg allowance.
I wonder how many guys have been locked up for under age sex in the FSU countries ? Im speaking about guys searching for a wife but who get other ideas when they arrive :laugh:
I think that crowd typically heads to Asia. Specifically Thailand. Or so I'm told.
From what I've seen - you're not far wrong..
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I hope you have a good trip. Will you be getting there on a train from Kiev or will you fly directly? Here is a link to the International Airport in Ivano Frankivsk, which I believe Chris has flown into many times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano-Frankivsk_International_Airport
I fly into Kiev then get a Ukrainian air flight to Ivano Frankivsk. There is one flight a day from Kiev to Ivano Frankivsk that leaves Kiev about 7 PM and one 7am in the morning that leaves Ivano Frankivsk for Kiev.
I am not Andrew, my moniker is Anteros. I'm not sure if you're interested however there's now a Turkish Airline (as of today, March 31st) which flies into Ivano Frankivsk from Istanbul. You could probably fly from Texas to Istanbul and then onto Ivano Frankivsk. You might want to check into that and see if it costs less and/or is a better connection (less overall transit time). Good luck again!
http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-int/flights-tickets/ivano-frankivsk/istanbul
No I was not aware of this flight. It save me 200 dollars but I have to spend the night in Istanbul both ways. The other flight which is also on Turkish Air I only have to spend the night in Kiev going. Their is a very cheap room near the airport in Kiev which is good enough for me. Turkish air has a really good none stop flight from Houston to Istanbul. They just changed the schedule so I can get to Kiev the same day because last year it would made me spend the night in Istanbul both ways also. The Turkish Air flight from Ivano Frankivsk does not leave until 12 noon and arrives just ten minute after the flight leaves for Houston. It appears they do not want to park the jet in Ivano Frankivsk over night. The problem with Turkish Air to Kiev they arrive in Kiev at 8 pm and Ukraine air leaves Kiev to go to Ivano Frankivsk at 7 pm. But their flight is 250 dollars less than one where I do not have to spend the night in Kiev. On the return trip I can make the connection. I just checked and Lvov is not better.
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Only for those with very strong stomach / heart.
English subtitles An appeal to European nations from Novorossiya :
I linked it, did not embed it for a reason.
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Markje..
Since when would anyone referring to 'novorossiyia' :sick0012: be thinking as a Ukrainian ?....
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Markje..
Since when would anyone referring to 'novorossiyia' :sick0012: be thinking as a Ukrainian ?....
you dont care about the dead. you just push the political agenda. why else make such a comment
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Markje..
Since when would anyone referring to 'novorossiyia' :sick0012: be thinking as a Ukrainian ?....
you dont care about the dead. you just push the political agenda. why else make such a comment
If you actually cared about the dead you wouldn't support the dishonest actions of sociopaths. They were giddy and high on getting off so easily with their theft of Crimea that they thought Ukrainians would not fight back when they tried to steal the Donbas with the same nefarious "hybrid warfare". Of course it never happened, and all the evidence to the contrary is "western propaganda". :dh:
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Its probably the reason why so many grandfathers spend so many years in Ukraine :)
... and why so many of our self-proclaimed studs are still just looking.
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you dont care about the dead. you just push the political agenda. why else make such a comment
1/ It was a political stunt that kicked off 'anti-Maidan' movement, polarisation and the Russian president talking up 'novorossiya'.. so IF he hadn't ordered the military take-over of Crimea and 'helping' insurrection in other parts of Ukraine... Kids and others won't BE dead...
2/ THIS thread - presumably - is supposed to reflect the UA viewpoint - which won't be 'yours' - they won't use the term 'novorossiya' :sick0012:
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you dont care about the dead. you just push the political agenda. why else make such a comment
1/ It was a political stunt that kicked off 'anti-Maidan' movement, polarisation and the Russian president talking up 'novorossiya'.. so IF he hadn't ordered the military take-over of Crimea and 'helping' insurrection in other parts of Ukraine... Kids and others won't BE dead...
2/ THIS thread - presumably - is supposed to reflect the UA viewpoint - which won't be 'yours' - they won't use the term 'novorossiya' :sick0012:
[attachimg=1]
CHANGE THE RECORD.....YOU ARE BORING WITH YOUR LIES!
WRITE SOMETHING INTERESTING.... OR POST PHOTOS OF YOUR ADVENTURES.
MUCH BETTER TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
Yes, Noby, I am shouting to you!
:dh:
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you dont care about the dead. you just push the political agenda. why else make such a comment
1/ It was a political stunt that kicked off 'anti-Maidan' movement, polarisation and the Russian president talking up 'novorossiya'.. so IF he hadn't ordered the military take-over of Crimea and 'helping' insurrection in other parts of Ukraine... Kids and others won't BE dead...
2/ THIS thread - presumably - is supposed to reflect the UA viewpoint - which won't be 'yours' - they won't use the term 'novorossiya' :sick0012:
The term or the words used are unimportant. The number of dead (9000) compared to the number of fallen soldiers (either side) (3000 total) speak far worse of kiev's involvement.
The fact that you cannot comprehend this, means you care nothing for the poor souls that lost their lives because Kiev is failing to learn the lesson that you cannot send the military after your own civilians. You will never ever win against a man defending his home.
You can kill him, but you will never defeat him
My placing this article in this thread was deliberate, as I do most things. I still do not accept Novorussia as displaced outside of Ukraine. The fact that you think its misplaced here, means you already accepted Novorussia on a subconsious level. Shame on you
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CHANGE THE RECORD.....YOU ARE BORING WITH YOUR LIES!
WRITE SOMETHING INTERESTING.... OR POST PHOTOS OF YOUR ADVENTURES.
MUCH BETTER TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
Yes, Noby, I am shouting to you!
Wiz,
Unlike you...I AM in Russia, know ppl from Donbas and was there before the Krenlin propaganda machine kicked into life...when it was clear Ukraine was 'lost'.
Now, tell us where ANY lie was to be found?
Things are FAR worse in Dondas, now...THAT is why I see so many UA reg cars who do not want to go back..
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I really have a problem with the United states continuing to throw money away in Ukraine, until there is real progress in getting corruption under control.
US to offer Ukraine financial support as political crisis deepens
http://m.dw.com/en/us-to-offer-ukraine-financial-support-as-political-crisis-deepens/a-19157505
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You know, you should really go see a gynecologist about that sand in your vagina. It's making you more sanctimonious than usual.
B/B
I think that sand is pretty much super glued :chuckle:
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Yes, I agree that Tom should ease up a bit.
Steve made a good point but he didn't develop it: if a man has issues with women, mother, manhood or socialization, neither a smoking-hot, early-twenties FSU girl, nor salty tales of his imaginary exploits will be curative. The afflicted want validation, not straight talk. Sadly, Andrew and I have no talent for the former.
Of course, suggesting that a member should kill himself or fück off to Pluto is very poor etiquette (especially for a moderator) but there is a silver lining: it indicates that the bugger has been pissed off and that is mildly gratifying. This thread will probably have to be cleaned up because, even though it's jolly good entertainment, having a moderator displaying douchebaggery [1] sets a bad example for the rank and file.
[1] I can't decide if "douchebaggery" should be hymenated or not.
A Freudian slip perhaps?
You know, you should really go see a gynecologist about that sand in your vagina. It's making you more sanctimonious than usual.
B/B
I think that sand is pretty much super glued :chuckle:
:laugh:
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A Freudian slip perhaps?
Perhaps not.
-
I really have a problem with the United states continuing to throw money away in Ukraine, until there is real progress in getting corruption under control.
US to offer Ukraine financial support as political crisis deepens
http://m.dw.com/en/us-to-offer-ukraine-financial-support-as-political-crisis-deepens/a-19157505
I believe the political crisis is an early sign the Ukraine is in danger of breaking up. The corruption likely will only get worse. It might get so bad that is will match the DPR level of corruption. I believe if they stop getting funding from the USA and Europe it will fall apart very soon. No one has enough control in Ukraine to stop the corruption or to do anything else. That is why it is called a political crisis.
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Ukraine is of no use to anyone! The corruption there will never end, its in the blood. The US probably wouldn't of minded throwing money at the god forsaken country for ever, and they probably wouldn't of minded if the government continued to steal the money. BUT there is no Crimea now to stick their stupid Nato bases on, the plan went tits up!
Mr Putin is not some dumb ass... :thumbsup:
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Ukraine is of no use to anyone! The corruption there will never end, its in the blood. The US probably wouldn't of minded throwing money at the god forsaken country for ever, and they probably wouldn't of minded if the government continued to steal the money. BUT there is no Crimea now to stick their stupid Nato bases on, the plan went tits up!
Mr Putin is not some dumb ass... :thumbsup:
Actually,
He might be just the thing you deny....
1/ a NATO base of Crimea was a non starter...Ukrainians of all persuations agreed on that BEFORE Russia used her service personnel to remove the Ukrainians
2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
.
-
2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
-
2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
Agreed...but the change in publjc opibion is THE point you may be overlooking...and one nearly Kremlun controlled media overlook
.
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2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
After all, when Ukraine is not allowed to do what they want to do as a sovereign nation, but must always kow-tow to the bully to the East... :sick0012:
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While he's at it, maybe you should back away from being such a USDA certified pompous douche.
So sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
But do feel free to kill yourself, or :censored: off to Pluto, whichever is easiest for you to manage. And be sure to take fifi with you.
B/B
:ROFL:
Getting back on topic, I consider the douche's to be those who feel they can invade a sovereign country (Ukraine), import special force troops and professional agitators, import tanks, state of the art rifles with silencers, artillery, etc., fire upon Ukrainian troops while embedded in civilian neighborhoods like the terrorists do against Israel, and then attempt to blame Ukraine for wanting to defend their territory. :coffeeread:
USA...USA.....USA!
That's exactly what your little kingdom will be chanting, once again, within 30 years, since you fools have fokked yourselves with excessive Muslim migration.
USA...please come save our bacon, again, like you did in WW1 and WW2. USA, we need adult supervision, save us! :laugh:
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2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
After all, when Ukraine is not allowed to do what they want to do as a sovereign nation, but must always kow-tow to the bully to the East... :sick0012:
Ukraine can only do what their US & EU lords and masters tell them, they are NOT allowed to decide anything on their own.
The Bullies are to the west.
The "Bullies" from the east kept the country and its economy afloat for many a year.
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2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
After all, when Ukraine is not allowed to do what they want to do as a sovereign nation, but must always kow-tow to the bully to the East... :sick0012:
Ukraine can only do what their US & EU lords and masters tell them, they are NOT allowed to decide anything on their own.
The Bullies are to the west.
The "Bullies" from the east kept the country and its economy afloat for many a year.
You mean they kept their jack-boot on the neck of Ukraine so Yanuconvict and cronies could loot and steal?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
-
While he's at it, maybe you should back away from being such a USDA certified pompous douche.
So sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
But do feel free to kill yourself, or :censored: off to Pluto, whichever is easiest for you to manage. And be sure to take fifi with you.
B/B
:ROFL:
Getting back on topic, I consider the douche's to be those who feel they can invade a sovereign country (Ukraine), import special force troops and professional agitators, import tanks, state of the art rifles with silencers, artillery, etc., fire upon Ukrainian troops while embedded in civilian neighborhoods like the terrorists do against Israel, and then attempt to blame Ukraine for wanting to defend their territory. :coffeeread:
USA...USA.....USA!
That's exactly what your little kingdom will be chanting, once again, within 30 years, since you fools have fokked yourselves with excessive Muslim migration.
USA...please come save our bacon, again, like you did in WW1 and WW2. USA, we need adult supervision, save us! :laugh:
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
This has just got to be the post of the week....
Save our bacon.. Man, we've got no :censored: ing bacon, its been banned to appease the :censored: ing Muslim's...
-
While he's at it, maybe you should back away from being such a USDA certified pompous douche.
So sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
But do feel free to kill yourself, or :censored: off to Pluto, whichever is easiest for you to manage. And be sure to take fifi with you.
B/B
:ROFL:
Getting back on topic, I consider the douche's to be those who feel they can invade a sovereign country (Ukraine), import special force troops and professional agitators, import tanks, state of the art rifles with silencers, artillery, etc., fire upon Ukrainian troops while embedded in civilian neighborhoods like the terrorists do against Israel, and then attempt to blame Ukraine for wanting to defend their territory. :coffeeread:
USA...USA.....USA!
That's exactly what your little kingdom will be chanting, once again, within 30 years, since you fools have fokked yourselves with excessive Muslim migration.
USA...please come save our bacon, again, like you did in WW1 and WW2. USA, we need adult supervision, save us! :laugh:
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
This has just got to be the post of the week....
Save our bacon.. Man, we've got no :censored: ing bacon, its been banned to appease the :censored: ing Muslim's...
I didn't even initially think of that...but you're right! Just give it 30 years. No more pints and no more bacon!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
After all, when Ukraine is not allowed to do what they want to do as a sovereign nation, but must always kow-tow to the bully to the East... :sick0012:
Ukraine can only do what their US & EU lords and masters tell them, they are NOT allowed to decide anything on their own.
The Bullies are to the west.
The "Bullies" from the east kept the country and its economy afloat for many a year.
You mean they kept their jack-boot on the neck of Ukraine so Yanuconvict and cronies could loot and steal?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
OH dear Ant..
No denying that theft was not part of the political process, money greased many palms, foreign ones included.
The theft was under control though, unlike today under the auspices of the US and the EU, where up to $44 billion and Euro 17 billion has "been lost" into the current incumbents deep pockets..
-
2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
Agreed...but the change in publjc opibion is THE point you may be overlooking...and one nearly Kremlun controlled media overlook
I doubt "public opinion" is worth too much in Ukraine. I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist. They will be slinking back to Russia for support when Uncle Sam has finished with them.
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Ukraine is of no use to anyone! The corruption there will never end, its in the blood. The US probably wouldn't of minded throwing money at the god forsaken country for ever, and they probably wouldn't of minded if the government continued to steal the money. BUT there is no Crimea now to stick their stupid Nato bases on, the plan went tits up!
Mr Putin is not some dumb ass... :thumbsup:
Actually,
He might be just the thing you deny....
1/ a NATO base of Crimea was a non starter...Ukrainians of all persuations agreed on that BEFORE Russia used her service personnel to remove the Ukrainians
2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
.
Excellent manipulation of the facts :bow:
-
2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
Agreed...but the change in publjc opibion is THE point you may be overlooking...and one nearly Kremlun controlled media overlook
I doubt "public opinion" is worth too much in Ukraine. I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist. They will be slinking back to Russia for support when Uncle Sam has finished with them.
AHA, BUT, what will they do when they find out that Russia knows that its much better off now without Ukraine, and Russia tells them to "Go forth and multiply".
These days, Russia has no need of Ukraine except to put distance between its borders and NATO..
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Ukraine can only do what their US & EU lords and masters tell them, they are NOT allowed to decide anything on their own.
Guess who's been watching too much Kremlin controlled tv ?..
You were clearly taking a long nap in last week of Aug '13 ..when the Kremlin had the great' idea of effectively closing the border to trade fora week - by 'over-checking' all UA imports...to demonstrate how it would be - if UA chose the EU trade association agreement ...now THAT was bullying and petulant ... the 'naughty neighbour' didn't take the hint. and more aggressive interference followed..
Go on 'deny it' ...
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2/ Now, Ukraine WANTS to join ....NATO...
Ukraine wants to join many things, like the Schengen, the EU, etc. Doesn't make it any more likely.
After all, when Ukraine is not allowed to do what they want to do as a sovereign nation, but must always kow-tow to the bully to the East... :sick0012:
Ukraine can only do what their US & EU lords and masters tell them, they are NOT allowed to decide anything on their own.
The Bullies are to the west.
The "Bullies" from the east kept the country and its economy afloat for many a year.
You mean they kept their jack-boot on the neck of Ukraine so Yanuconvict and cronies could loot and steal?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
OH dear Ant..
No denying that theft was not part of the political process, money greased many palms, foreign ones included.
The theft was under control though, unlike today under the auspices of the US and the EU, where up to $44 billion and Euro 17 billion has "been lost" into the current incumbents deep pockets..
Perhaps you're right. I've often said that Russia and Ukraine are two sides of the same coin and that they deserve each other. :chuckle:
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Ukraine can only do what their US & EU lords and masters tell them, they are NOT allowed to decide anything on their own.
Guess who's been watching too much Kremlin controlled tv ?..
According to you, I am not in Russia...
Also according to you, I do not understand Russian..
FYI, I do not watch tv at all..
You were clearly taking a long nap in last week of Aug '13 ..when the Kremlin had the great' idea of effectively closing the border to trade fora week - by 'over-checking' all UA imports...to demonstrate how it would be - if UA chose the EU trade association agreement ...now THAT was bullying and petulant ... the 'naughty neighbour' didn't take the hint. and more aggressive interference followed..
Go on 'deny it' ...
:offtopic:
You are trying to deviate from the subject by bringing up something that is irrelevant and is 3 years old..
Pure "Whataboutism"..
Typical Msmoby TM swerve.
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While he's at it, maybe you should back away from being such a USDA certified pompous douche.
So sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
But do feel free to kill yourself, or :censored: off to Pluto, whichever is easiest for you to manage. And be sure to take fifi with you.
B/B
:ROFL:
Getting back on topic, I consider the douche's to be those who feel they can invade a sovereign country (Ukraine), import special force troops and professional agitators, import tanks, state of the art rifles with silencers, artillery, etc., fire upon Ukrainian troops while embedded in civilian neighborhoods like the terrorists do against Israel, and then attempt to blame Ukraine for wanting to defend their territory. :coffeeread:
USA...USA.....USA!
That's exactly what your little kingdom will be chanting, once again, within 30 years, since you fools have fokked yourselves with excessive Muslim migration.
USA...please come save our bacon, again, like you did in WW1 and WW2. USA, we need adult supervision, save us! :laugh:
Anteros may I remind of Cufflins comments?
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,25320.msg434918.html#msg434918
You will NOT like them.... not a bit! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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I live the dream wherever I am. Also, the CEO of my firm recognizes that he pays me for PERFORMANCE, not ATTENDANCE, thus I have quite a bit of freedom to walk to and fro' upon the Earth and up and down in it, to put it one way. This week, it's Ukraine. A couple of weeks ago, it was Miami. In June it will be somewhere else, and so on.
At any rate, this thread is not about me, so....
B/B
I think B/B has the better job, I only get to go back waters like London, Maastricht, Paris, and Manhattan.
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Ukraine's Government Crisis Comes to a Head
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/enter-groysman-ukraines-government-crisis-comes-head/ri13723
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Looking back, it's amazing how well some people can predict the future.
If the enemy doesn’t want to abide by the cease-fire, if he doesn’t want to put an end to the suffering of peaceful people, Ukrainian villages and town, we will smash them in the teeth. [Jan. 2015]
Less than a month later, the massacre at Debaltseve took place.
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Poroshenko,," I am a peaceful president"
Words from the man who sent in troops to kill his fellow country folk.
From the man that continues to allow the war to continue.
And as TomT just posted the man who talked tuff and sent his troops to slaughter.
Yep really a peaceful president. (:)
Ukraine's Poroshenko Wants Diplomatic Solution for Crimea and Donbass
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko believes that there is a diplomatic way out of the Donbass and Crimean crises, Radio Svoboda reported Monday.According to the president, "there is no military solution" either for the separatist-held Donbass region in eastern Ukraine, or the annexed peninsula of Crimea."I am a peaceful president and to provide effective actions … we need the efforts of Ukrainian diplomats," he said, Radio Svoboda reported.Poroshenko added that Ukrainian diplomats have already achieved significant success in this regard
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/ukraines-poroshenko-wants-diplomatic-solution-for-crimea-and-donbass/564685.html
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The view isn't so rosy.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/dutch-firmly-reject-eu-ukraine-ties-referendum-160407041249420.html
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Looking back, it's amazing how well some people can predict the future.
If the enemy doesn’t want to abide by the cease-fire, if he doesn’t want to put an end to the suffering of peaceful people, Ukrainian villages and town, we will smash them in the teeth. [Jan. 2015]
Less than a month later, the massacre at Debaltseve took place.
I expect he never expected the Kremlin to have the audacity to pour in so many men / hardware...
.
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The view isn't so rosy.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/dutch-firmly-reject-eu-ukraine-ties-referendum-160407041249420.html
From that article:
Rutte agreed "the 'no' camp won convincingly".
And he was forced to concede that "if the turnout is above the [30 percent] margin then this accord cannot be ratified as is."
Some might say that this was quite 'rosy'. Mark would probably be one of them.
My take is that what happens next cones down to this: were the senior bureaucrats of the Commission secretly hoping for this outcome in order to give them an 'out' on the Ukraine project or were their claims and urgings genuine; that is, they want the Association Agreement to proceed in its current form.
If the former then there will be huffing and puffing but nothing substantive will happen - except that the agreement will be set aside, or retained in a hugely watered down form to save a little face all round.
If the latter then the agreement will be steamrollered through, possibly after a terrorist attack or two.
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From the article:
Many Ukrainian politicians feel their country deserves the treaty and are keen to show they have made progress in aligning their country with EU standards
:ROFL:
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The view isn't so rosy.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/dutch-firmly-reject-eu-ukraine-ties-referendum-160407041249420.html
From that article:
Rutte agreed "the 'no' camp won convincingly".
And he was forced to concede that "if the turnout is above the [30 percent] margin then this accord cannot be ratified as is."
Some might say that this was quite 'rosy'. Mark would probably be one of them.
My take is that what happens next cones down to this: were the senior bureaucrats of the Commission secretly hoping for this outcome in order to give them an 'out' on the Ukraine project or were their claims and urgings genuine; that is, they want the Association Agreement to proceed in its current form.
If the former then there will be huffing and puffing but nothing substantive will happen - except that the agreement will be set aside, or retained in a hugely watered down form to save a little face all round.
If the latter then the agreement will be steamrollered through, possibly after a terrorist attack or two.
As Manny can do it
Mega ROFL...
.
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Little bit more protesting in Kiev.
DEVOURING THEIR OWN
Ukraine On Fire
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/08/ukraine-on-fire.html
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Little bit more protesting in Kiev.
DEVOURING THEIR OWN
Ukraine On Fire
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/08/ukraine-on-fire.html
The flowers are blooming and trees are beginning to show green in Kiev. Yesterday early afternoon, Friday, during a long walk here we passed the buildings mentioned, nothing more than a regular police presence.
For certain the general population is weary of the unfilled promises and most hope is lost in the present government. But the populace is neither protesting in large numbers nor is there any talk of the country breaking apart into five smaller countries. There is still a strong desire of the general population to join Western and Central Europe and bury the Moscow past.
I should note there is no ice present in Kiev except in frozen margaritas. The photo is from an earlier protest during the winter.
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Poroshenko empty-handed in Washington
http://m.en.delfi.lt/opinion/article.php?id=70909436
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Ukraine is of no use to anyone! The corruption there will never end, its in the blood. The US probably wouldn't of minded throwing money at the god forsaken country for ever, and they probably wouldn't of minded if the government continued to steal the money. BUT there is no Crimea now to stick their stupid Nato bases on, the plan went tits up!
Mr Putin is not some dumb ass... :thumbsup:
Ukraine is very important to the 45 million people that live there. Most of them love their country.
No one ever wanted to stick a NATO base on Crimea. You have to know Russia out number NATO a hundred to one in nuclear missiles in the region. Russia has more nuclear missiles than the NATO even if you count our aging USA 1971 missile system. Russia has started a arms war as we are now far in the rear and having to catch up. No offenses missiles have been moved east in Europe. The talk about missiles being added the are talking about defensives missiles to shoot incoming missiles and attacking planes. Putin come up with this stuff to justify why they put nuclear missiles on Crimea.
In fact if Russia and China would of talked about it, Obama would loved to have done away with anybody have nuclear missiles any where on planet earth. Obama has done a lot to degrade the US military and would have done more if he could of. He just came up with a new nuclear deal with China and I have not heard anything about the details. It would most likely make me sick if I knew them so maybe it is better if I don't. The last nuclear deal with Russia was awful as it gave the Russian more of everything than the US. I can not understand what you guys are so pissed off about missiles.
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Ukraine is of no use to anyone! The corruption there will never end, its in the blood. The US probably wouldn't of minded throwing money at the god forsaken country for ever, and they probably wouldn't of minded if the government continued to steal the money. BUT there is no Crimea now to stick their stupid Nato bases on, the plan went tits up!
Mr Putin is not some dumb ass... :thumbsup:
Ukraine is very important to the 45 million people that live there. Most of them love their country.
No one ever wanted to stick a NATO base on Crimea. You have to know Russia out number NATO a hundred to one in nuclear missiles in the region. Russia has more nuclear missiles than the NATO even if you count our aging USA 1971 missile system. Russia has started a arms war as we are now far in the rear and having to catch up. No offenses missiles have been moved east in Europe. The talk about missiles being added the are talking about defensives missiles to shoot incoming missiles and attacking planes. Putin come up with this stuff to justify why they put nuclear missiles on Crimea.
In fact if Russia and China would of talked about it, Obama would loved to have done away with anybody have nuclear missiles any where on planet earth. Obama has done a lot to degrade the US military and would have done more if he could of. He just came up with a new nuclear deal with China and I have not heard anything about the details. It would most likely make me sick if I knew them so maybe it is better if I don't. The last nuclear deal with Russia was awful as it gave the Russian more of everything than the US. I can not understand what you guys are so pissed off about missiles.
Because their puppet masters tell them to be pissed off. :laugh:
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Poroshenko empty-handed in Washington
http://m.en.delfi.lt/opinion/article.php?id=70909436
Joe Biden was at the end of March in Kiev at this time a third 1 billion dollar loan guarantee was made and another 335 million in non-lethal security assistance is moving forward.
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Ukraine is of no use to anyone! The corruption there will never end, its in the blood. The US probably wouldn't of minded throwing money at the god forsaken country for ever, and they probably wouldn't of minded if the government continued to steal the money. BUT there is no Crimea now to stick their stupid Nato bases on, the plan went tits up!
Mr Putin is not some dumb ass... :thumbsup:
Ukraine is very important to the 45 million people that live there. Most of them love their country.
No one ever wanted to stick a NATO base on Crimea. You have to know Russia out number NATO a hundred to one in nuclear missiles in the region. Russia has more nuclear missiles than the NATO even if you count our aging USA 1971 missile system. Russia has started a arms war as we are now far in the rear and having to catch up. No offenses missiles have been moved east in Europe. The talk about missiles being added the are talking about defensives missiles to shoot incoming missiles and attacking planes. Putin come up with this stuff to justify why they put nuclear missiles on Crimea.
In fact if Russia and China would of talked about it, Obama would loved to have done away with anybody have nuclear missiles any where on planet earth. Obama has done a lot to degrade the US military and would have done more if he could of. He just came up with a new nuclear deal with China and I have not heard anything about the details. It would most likely make me sick if I knew them so maybe it is better if I don't. The last nuclear deal with Russia was awful as it gave the Russian more of everything than the US. I can not understand what you guys are so pissed off about missiles.
In 1986 at the Reykjavík Summit, between U.S. President Ronald Reagan and General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev, Gorbachev proposed banning all ballistic missiles. It is well know the reaction by Reagan, who said:
"That's a man to do business with"
Unfortunatelly, Casper Weinberger, (Secretary of Defense) called Reagan to private discussion..... and then Reagan changed his tune.
Reagan wanted to continue research on the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), which involved the militarisation of outer space. Soviet suspicion of SDI continued, and U.S.-Soviet relations — already strained by the failure of the Geneva Summit the previous year so the talks failed.
Obama is using Drones to kill enemy personnel.
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Yatsenyuk Goes - Finally!
Televised announcement from Ukrainian Prime Minister confirms he will resign on Monday
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/yatsenyuk-goes-finally/ri13816
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Yatsenyuk Goes - Finally!
Time to drop the pretence of 'messenger'...
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WIZ, the US is using drones to kill people, that is true. Only very rarely do US drone attacks kill 'enemy personnel'. As I recall, the lack of success means that around 90% of all those killed were people who were simply unlucky enough to be too close to where the attack occurred. Usually, even those targets that are successfully killed are not enemy personnel either - just people with brown skins who are usually, but not always, not US citizens.
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Joe Biden was at the end of March in Kiev at this time a third 1 billion dollar loan guarantee was made and another 335 million in non-lethal security assistance is moving forward.
Doesn't sound too 'empty handed' - from a few days earlier ... :coffeeread:
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Joe Biden was at the end of March in Kiev at this time a third 1 billion dollar loan guarantee was made and another 335 million in non-lethal security assistance is moving forward.
Doesn't sound too 'empty handed' - from a few days earlier ... :coffeeread:
The time line was Biden was first in Kiev in March and than Porschenko was in April in DC.
The cynic in me says Biden brought the plane ticket for Porky to see his boss. Sort of like a Mafia loan shark says my boss wants to see you.
What is 335 $ million worth of non-lethal military aid is anyways. How many K-Rations is that?
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Dose not take long to become a native Ukrainian. :chuckle:
Saakashvili Lacks ALL Sense of Self-Awareness (Video)
Saakashvili, with a straight face, denounces the omnipresence of foreigners in the Ukrainian government
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/saakashvile-lacks-all-sense-self-awareness-video/ri13828
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Other than killing each other, there seems to be little reason to continue the fight.
Over 9000 dead and counting, and no end in sight.
Ukraine conflict: UN officer captured by Donetsk rebels
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36040696
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Burial of unidentified people in uniform discovered in eastern Ukraine
http://uatoday.tv/society/burial-of-unidentified-people-in-uniform-discovered-in-eastern-ukraine-630314.html
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Other than killing each other, there seems to be little reason to continue the fight.
Over 9000 dead and counting, and no end in sight.
Ukraine conflict: UN officer captured by Donetsk rebels
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36040696
The reason for fighting from the Donbass side is still the same. Donbass did not accept the ousting of Yanukovich and now wants to be independent totally from the bullies in Kiev.
Kiev likewise, does not want to grant them independence and much rather send in the military than convince the public with funding of new roads, paying pensions etc. etc.
My wife told me in Ukrainian news was an item that they do not even stock enough antidote anymore for some major contagious diseases because of budget-cuts.
Mark.
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Other than killing each other, there seems to be little reason to continue the fight.
Over 9000 dead and counting, and no end in sight.
Ukraine conflict: UN officer captured by Donetsk rebels
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36040696
The reason for fighting from the Donbass side is still the same. Donbass did not accept the ousting of Yanukovich and now wants to be independent totally from the bullies in Kiev.
Kiev likewise, does not want to grant them independence and much rather send in the military than convince the public with funding of new roads, paying pensions etc. etc.
My wife told me in Ukrainian news was an item that they do not even stock enough antidote anymore for some major contagious diseases because of budget-cuts.
Mark.
One major reason why Ukraine wants visa free travel for its citizens, to enable them to enter the EU and receive medical attention under the reciprocal agreement..
Lets see, what treatment do they need, mmmm, HIV, STD's, Drugs just to name a few, which Ukraine is rank with..
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Joe Biden was at the end of March in Kiev at this time a third 1 billion dollar loan guarantee was made and another 335 million in non-lethal security assistance is moving forward.
Doesn't sound too 'empty handed' - from a few days earlier ... :coffeeread:
The time line was Biden was first in Kiev in March and than Porschenko was in April in DC.
The cynic in me says Biden brought the plane ticket for Porky to see his boss. Sort of like a Mafia loan shark says my boss wants to see you.
What is 335 $ million worth of non-lethal military aid is anyways. How many K-Rations is that?
1, Many Humvee's which are old, don't run at all well, bald tyres, no spare parts.
2, Used/out-dated bullet proof vests, which will not stop a thing, heavy and uncomfortable to the wearer, lulls into a false sense of security.
3, Used and out dated night vision glasses, many of which are way past their sell by date and totally useless.
The list is endless.
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Yes, as I understand it the money value on these deals is usually 'full retail, for new' and the goods supplied are outdated, surplus. Cheaper to ship the stuff to some poverty stricken despot than to dispose of it and, of course both sides get to crow about their generosity or success at getting 'deals'.
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Yes, as I understand it the money value on these deals is usually 'full retail, for new' and the goods supplied are outdated, surplus. Cheaper to ship the stuff to some poverty stricken despot than to dispose of it and, of course both sides get to crow about their generosity or success at getting 'deals'.
-10% for bulk order, +15% for credit customers... tiphat
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Just another American getting a piece of Ukraine.
Ukraine's American Finance Minister to Buy Its Largest Telecom Company
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-american-finance-minister-buy-ukraines-largest-telecom-company/ri13880
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Just another American getting a piece of Ukraine.
Ukraine's American Finance Minister to Buy Its Largest Telecom Company
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-american-finance-minister-buy-ukraines-largest-telecom-company/ri13880
I wonder how many other Americans are getting rich off of Ukraine?
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Just another American getting a piece of Ukraine.
Ukraine's American Finance Minister to Buy Its Largest Telecom Company
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-american-finance-minister-buy-ukraines-largest-telecom-company/ri13880
This article from a couple months ago said Hunter Biden is still activity buying gas assets.
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/02/bidens-son-continues-to-buy-gas-assets.html
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Please read article. It said the company Hunter Biden works for bought more gas assets not Hunter Biden. Hunter own no stock in this company and only benefit he gets for his work is his salary. This article never said Hunter Biden owns anything in the Ukraine.
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Just another American getting a piece of Ukraine.
Ukraine's American Finance Minister to Buy Its Largest Telecom Company
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/ukraines-american-finance-minister-buy-ukraines-largest-telecom-company/ri13880
I wonder how many other Americans are getting rich off of Ukraine?
She has not been working for the US since 2003 and has been working in the Ukraine since 2005.
"Between 2005 and 2010 Jaresko was a member of President Viktor Yushchenko's Foreign Investors Advisory Council and the Advisory Board of the Ukrainian Center for Promotion of Foreign Investment under the auspices of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine."
So now she buys something and it is America ripping everyone off??? This very slanted article seems to imply that she was part of the maiden event in order to crash the Ukraine economy so she could buy this. You guys will believe anything. Hey you know I do not think the worse is over in the Ukraine and she may lose money on the deal. But no one ever thinks anything about that.
I wonder how many well connected Russians have investments in the Ukraine? Gee, if we had an "Insider USA" that always wrote about Russia in a negative way I bet they could find many. Somehow it is only corrupt if some American has investment there. I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
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I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
No, what you did is plain dumb and an expensive way of getting the odd legover. If she sells it later on, you wont see a dime.
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Please read article. It said the company Hunter Biden works for bought more gas assets not Hunter Biden. Hunter own no stock in this company and only benefit he gets for his work is his salary. This article never said Hunter Biden owns anything in the Ukraine.
Hunter Biden works for Burisma Holdings in Ukraine.
Burisma Holdings are a registered Cyprus Company (Limassol).
Burisma Holdings is owned by Mykola Zlochevskyi (Ukrainian national), Controlling Interest.
Shareholders: Rosemont Seneca Partners, Rosemont Seneca Technology Partners
Rosemont Seneca Partners & Rosemont Seneca Technology Partners are owned by Hunter Biden and Devon D. Archer .
Burisma Holdings Limited Board Members
Mykola Zlochevskyi
Robert Hunter Biden J.D. Rosemont Seneca Partners
Devon D. Archer Rosemont Seneca Technology Partners
Board Affiliations of Robert Hunter Biden J.D. & Devon D. Archer
Sitaro Group, Ltd
Rosemont Solebury Capital Management LLC
Burisma Holdings Limited
Prospect Global Resources, Inc.
Social Passport LLC
National Investment Corporation of National Bank of Kazakhstan JSC
Bohai Harvest RST (Shanghai) Equity Investment Fund Management Co., Ltd.
Overview of Rosemont Seneca Partners, LLC
http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/relationship.asp?personId=31216428&privcapId=145391568&previousCapId=59556166&previousTitle=Burisma%20Holdings%20Limited
Duhhhhhhh.
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Ukraine recovers stolen Dutch masterpieces...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36052485
I like the comment at the bottom of the report..
Quote..
Ultra-nationalist Ukrainian militia groups are fighting a pro-Russian insurgency in parts of eastern Ukraine.
Typical BBC factual unbiased reporting.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
No, what you did is plain dumb and an expensive way of getting the odd legover. If she sells it later on, you wont see a dime.
Thats gone for sure bye bye :plane:
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I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
No, what you did is plain dumb and an expensive way of getting the odd legover. If she sells it later on, you wont see a dime.
At last, someone took the kid gloves off. Texan, you'll see as much profit from that flat as you will from the sale of a second hand dog with three legs. Nobody thinks you're evil, just easy.
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I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
No, what you did is plain dumb and an expensive way of getting the odd legover. If she sells it later on, you wont see a dime.
At last, someone took the kid gloves off. Texan, you'll see as much profit from that flat as you will from the sale of a second hand dog with three legs. Nobody thinks you're evil, just easy.
I have no interest in receiving any money from this flat. I did not need to buy the flat to keep the girl. Presently, I send her money for rent. Soon when the flat is complete I will stop sending her money for rent. So if you want to look at that way I will profit from the flat. If she dumps me I really save a large amount of money as I could stop paying for trips which cost me more than the flat. Personally I do not care what you guys think. Actually all of this is much cheaper than bringing her to the USA.
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I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
No, what you did is plain dumb and an expensive way of getting the odd legover. If she sells it later on, you wont see a dime.
At last, someone took the kid gloves off. Texan, you'll see as much profit from that flat as you will from the sale of a second hand dog with three legs. Nobody thinks you're evil, just easy.
Come on guys, leave him (Texan) alone, don't go on..
If he's happy with what he's doing, and happy with his lady, then its his life, he probably also knows the risk he is taking..
I wish his the best of luck..
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Fair point but if he were my grandfather, I'd be sad to see him fritter away his savings chasing a pipe dream.
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Fair point but if he were my grandfather, I'd be sad to see him fritter away his savings chasing a pipe dream.
Surely you mean frittering away your inheritance... ;D
Anyway, its his pipe... :whist11:
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Fair point but if he were my grandfather, I'd be sad to see him fritter away his savings chasing a pipe dream.
Surely you mean frittering away your inheritance... ;D
Well, with the cost of real estate over there I doubt there's any life changing money involved.
This is a sponsorship arrangement, he gets to play rich daddy for a few days a year and she gets to keep her boyfriend comfortable when rich daddy isn't there.
If Texan wanted to get her to the US he'd do it.
Reminds me of a girl I used to know, looong ago. She had a 'boyfriend' a lad the same age as her. Very conveniently he lived in Germany while she was in Finland. I asked her why she kept this relationship going. Her response was that it saved her having to make explanations to relatives why she was not married yet (she was Russian and this was quite a few years ago!) and also it meant that it was easier to brush off unwanted local admirers.
Similar for Texas - he gets to pretend to have a girlfriend and every now and then he gets some leg-over. He has the 'hot' bird's pic in his wallet to brag about down at the social club, excuses to get away from his humdrum life a couple of times a year. If I were he I probably wouldn't want to import the woman either.
I just hope that he is fully cognisant of the emotional as well as financial costs involved. He, almost certainly has no other 'girlfriend' and cares for her more than she does he. On the other side, she almost certainly has a real boyfriend and is only biding her time before shunting the old fella off into the cold sunset. The role of sponsor is not all its cracked up to be for most guys.
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Fair point but if he were my grandfather, I'd be sad to see him fritter away his savings chasing a pipe dream.
Surely you mean frittering away your inheritance... ;D
Well, with the cost of real estate over there I doubt there's any life changing money involved.
This is a sponsorship arrangement, he gets to play rich daddy for a few days a year and she gets to keep her boyfriend comfortable when rich daddy isn't there.
If Texan wanted to get her to the US he'd do it.
I just hope that he is fully cognisant of the emotional as well as financial costs involved. He, almost certainly has no other 'girlfriend' and cares for her more than she does he. On the other side, she almost certainly has a real boyfriend and is only biding her time before shunting the old fella off into the cold sunset. The role of sponsor is not all its cracked up to be for most guys.
You guys are silly. First I never had any children so no ones inheritance is being spent. Secondly I support this out of my income and continue to add to my savings.
Secondly, she has no boy friend. Just Andrew dreams that he understands anything. Andrew is right about one thing. No life changing amount of money is being spent here. It is a small flat just 35 square meters. The inside is only concrete at this point with only ruff walls in the interior. We hope to fix the interior up over the next six months.
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Actually all of this is much cheaper than bringing her to the USA.
I'm either taking this out of context or my reading comprehension has fallen lower than the author's writing skills.
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Fair point but if he were my grandfather, I'd be sad to see him fritter away his savings chasing a pipe dream.
Surely you mean frittering away your inheritance... ;D
Well, with the cost of real estate over there I doubt there's any life changing money involved.
This is a sponsorship arrangement, he gets to play rich daddy for a few days a year and she gets to keep her boyfriend comfortable when rich daddy isn't there.
If Texan wanted to get her to the US he'd do it.
I just hope that he is fully cognisant of the emotional as well as financial costs involved. He, almost certainly has no other 'girlfriend' and cares for her more than she does he. On the other side, she almost certainly has a real boyfriend and is only biding her time before shunting the old fella off into the cold sunset. The role of sponsor is not all its cracked up to be for most guys.
You guys are silly. First I never had any children so no ones inheritance is being spent. Secondly I support this out of my income and continue to add to my savings.
Secondly, she has no boy friend. Just Andrew dreams that he understands anything. Andrew is right about one thing. No life changing amount of money is being spent here. It is a small flat just 35 square meters. The inside is only concrete at this point with only ruff walls in the interior. We hope to fix the interior up over the next six months.
You seem to have bought what is commonly known as a carcase apartment, that means, that it has windows fitted, hot & cold water to it, gas and electric also to it, and the central heating fitted if this is from a communal source, it should also have an entrance door of sorts, and the concrete floor is also in place, and sanitation pipework to the apartment.
Cost, about $30,000 minimum.
If so, first of all, all electrics, and gas work must be completed by a relevant specialist, and signed off as being correctly installed and tested, its the law..
Cost about $2,00 for electrics (without sockets/switches) & $1,000 for gas pipework (unless the apartment is heated by its own appliance, which will be about a further $3,500).
You will have to,
Plaster and skim the walls.
Install all relevant hot & cold water pipework to the kitchen and bathroom/toilet.
Install all bathroom and toilet fittings, ie, bath/toilet/sink/taps/sanitation pipework
Fit bathroom/toilet/kitchen tiles.
Fit a small kitchen.
Decorate all walls and ceilings.
Fit carpets/tiles/wooden laminate flooring.
Fit any doors, possible 3 at a minimum for such a small place.
Fit a strong steel entrance door.
Cost, dependant of quality of materials about $15,000.
So, all in all, around the $50,000 mark...
That's doing it on the cheap...
My apartment is 62m2, and I bought it in a similar state, apart from the electrics, and we have no gas, and the plastering/skimming/decorating the ceilings, I did all the remainder myself..
Even with my health problems.
I'm not just a pretty face...
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Gone away!
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Come on guys, leave him (Texan) alone, don't go on..
If he's happy with what he's doing, and happy with his lady, then its his life, he probably also knows the risk he is taking..
I wish him the best of luck..
+1
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Secondly, she has no boy friend.
Coz all the local men are alcoholics and "not the serious man" like you are. And she is waiting for you to "arrive to her". Yeah, we know. We read this stuff in the 90's. Blokes bought women flats then too.
I'm sure she has her an Ivan lined up who can do all the remont work at a *bargain* price. :money:
Next you will tell us the Ukraine has fewer men than women. No men! Right?
Fella, aged septics with more money than sense are not a new thing there. A whole business model was built on it. You are not the first to walk this path........
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Fair point but if he were my grandfather, I'd be sad to see him fritter away his savings chasing a pipe dream.
Surely you mean frittering away your inheritance... ;D
Well, with the cost of real estate over there I doubt there's any life changing money involved.
This is a sponsorship arrangement, he gets to play rich daddy for a few days a year and she gets to keep her boyfriend comfortable when rich daddy isn't there.
If Texan wanted to get her to the US he'd do it.
I just hope that he is fully cognisant of the emotional as well as financial costs involved. He, almost certainly has no other 'girlfriend' and cares for her more than she does he. On the other side, she almost certainly has a real boyfriend and is only biding her time before shunting the old fella off into the cold sunset. The role of sponsor is not all its cracked up to be for most guys.
You guys are silly. First I never had any children so no ones inheritance is being spent. Secondly I support this out of my income and continue to add to my savings.
Secondly, she has no boy friend. Just Andrew dreams that he understands anything. Andrew is right about one thing. No life changing amount of money is being spent here. It is a small flat just 35 square meters. The inside is only concrete at this point with only ruff walls in the interior. We hope to fix the interior up over the next six months.
NEARLY ALL women who are having any type of relationship with a foreign guy wether it be just a fantasy or a visit every few months HAVE boyfriends!
And of course her boyfriend will be staying in your apartment , its life!
Maybe not so much the older generation but younger for sure! Women need sex :censored:
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I send her money for rent.
Well, we didn't see that coming. :rolleye0009:
this is much cheaper than bringing her to the USA.
I bet that makes her feel warm and fuzzy. :coffeeread:
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She has son who likes me very much. I sent him to take classes in English so we communicate well now. He can not keep a secrete. If anyone was around I would know. Anyway he had a very big problem at school. It seems he could not keep it a secrete that he had an American dad now. He got into fights and the school called Yana in about her son's aggressive attitude. When she got there, it was more about how could she be a door matt for American men. After about six months of her son telling the other kids how great I am they decided (kids and teachers) that I am OK after all. When she attends teacher-parent meeting everyone ask about me. It is amazing how thing are perceived differently depending what side you are looking from. Their assumption was, I am the one cheating and will not be around long.
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She has son who likes me very much. I sent him to take classes in English so we communicate well now. He can not keep a secrete. If anyone was around I would know. Anyway he had a very big problem at school. It seems he could not keep it a secrete that he had an American dad now. He got into fights and the school called Yana in about her son's aggressive attitude. When she got there, it was more about how could she be a door matt for American men. After about six months of her son telling the other kids how great I am they decided (kids and teachers) that I am OK after all. When she attends teacher-parent meeting everyone ask about me. It is amazing how thing are perceived differently depending what side you are looking from. Their assumption was, I am the one cheating and will not be around long.
Texan, you mentioned the ladies son thinks of you as his American dad.
But you said in another post it's cheaper to send money to Ukraine, than to bring them to the United states.
Do you plan to marry and live in Ukraine?
Would seem the boy is attached to you, don't you feel you should be more than a part time dad? How often do you go to visit?
We draw conclusion from the little information you give a long with past experience of others.
I just hope that the child will not be the one getting played.
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I bought an apartment there so maybe and gave it to my girlfriend. So maybe if she sells it one day for a profit then maybe you guys will think I am one of these evil people that profited off the Ukraine collapse.
No, what you did is plain dumb and an expensive way of getting the odd legover. If she sells it later on, you wont see a dime.
At last, someone took the kid gloves off. Texan, you'll see as much profit from that flat as you will from the sale of a second hand dog with three legs. Nobody thinks you're evil, just easy.
Come on guys, leave him (Texan) alone, don't go on..
If he's happy with what he's doing, and happy with his lady, then its his life, he probably also knows the risk he is taking..
I wish him the best of luck..
:thumbsup:
There's risk on both sides. I don't know how long they've been dating but it seems it's over a year? Hopefully Texan will do right by the boy. If not he's causing pain and embarrassment to the boy and his mother.
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Come on guys, leave him (Texan) alone, don't go on..
If he's happy with what he's doing, and happy with his lady, then its his life, he probably also knows the risk he is taking..
I wish him the best of luck..
:thumbsup:
There's risk on both sides. I don't know how long they've been dating but it seems it's over a year? Hopefully Texan will do right by the boy. If not he's causing pain and embarrassment to the boy and his mother.
This summer will be our third year. Guys you need to know she was in the LPR and her life was destroyed. I moved her to Zaporozhie to escape the war as she thought at first it would not last long. It was not until last September that she total gave up on ever moving back. What you guys do not consider is what baggage we carry from our past both her and me which is not something I want to post.
I am hoping to be able to spend much more time with them as we get the apartment fixed up. I hoping that the boy will be able to work with me and I will be able to teach him some home improvement skills. He turns 13 this summer.
The boy's father would not claim him so he has spent his life up until recently father less. When she tried to date Ukrainian men they would look at him as if he was a problem. The boy complained that he did not like her dating and would get very upset. I had her bring the boy on the first date and always let him know he was just as important as she was. Even Yana was completely surprised how he took to me right away.
She used to work as a book keeper for a chain of 6 furniture stores. She lost that job early in the war. It was impossible for her to find more work because of the recession in the Ukraine. She was also a hair stylist but decided she wants to do nails in the apartment. I paid for her go to nail school last winter. She is now interning with her teacher improving her skill level.
I am planning to be there in late May and I plan to return in July. I will be bringing her some of the supplies she will needs to start doing nails. In fact my suit case will hardly have any clothes in it.
I consider any money I spend there as spent. No deposit no return. I can afford this so do not to worry. The worse outcome for them is they get a free apartment and she gets a new income source. I hope the up side will be a lot more than that from an emotional support system she and her son have not enjoyed up until I came into their life. Even though it is part time, it is much better than what was there before.
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From post #2902 onwards has very little to do with the situation in Ukraine and more the "Gang of Four" snipping at a fellow poster about his partner and his relationship. My suggestion start a new thread regarding this.
In any event what Tex does is his business. My guess the estimates of Gypsy are within 10%, up or down, of the correct numbers. I will point out 35square meters with a boy that is almost an adolescent is small. But what Tex does with his money is his business. I am confident if we told Manny that owning a Land Rover was major financial mistake and the car was crap he would tell us to bugger off.
Having said the above I find the relationship peculiar, but Julia who has visited the United States has clearly said that she does not want to live in Connecticut. We examined the public schools and she found them so inferior to Ukraine education that she still does not believe what she saw. On the other side her son age ten scores 10, 11 & 12 in Geometry and has finished Algebra, which I find odd. He also has the highest scores in both German and English and does quite well in other subjects. After school once a week he takes Chinese classes and seems to be progressing as they have moved him to next level after 5 classes. Though unlike Tex the marriage between Julia and I stays in the house, with regards to Nicolaas's class mates.
Julia is basically self supporting earning some money tutoring in Math and doing real estate deals. The plan is next year in the summer to set up house in Amsterdam.
I wish Tex every pleasure and may a fair amount of that pleasure pleasure be horizontal.
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From post #2902 onwards has very little to do with the situation in Ukraine and more the "Gang of Four" snipping at a fellow poster about his partner and his relationship. My suggestion start a new thread regarding this.
In any event what Tex does is his business. My guess the estimates of Gypsy are within 10%, up or down, of the correct numbers. I will point out 35square meters with a boy that is almost an adolescent is small. But what Tex does with his money is his business. I am confident if we told Manny that owning a Land Rover was major financial mistake and the car was crap he would tell us to bugger off.
Having said the above I find the relationship peculiar, but Julia who has visited the United States has clearly said that she does not want to live in Connecticut. We examined the public schools and she found them so inferior to Ukraine education that she still does not believe what she saw. On the other side her son age ten scores 10, 11 & 12 in Geometry and has finished Algebra, which I find odd. He also has the highest scores in both German and English and does quite well in other subjects. After school once a week he takes Chinese classes and seems to be progressing as they have moved him to next level after 5 classes. Though unlike Tex the marriage between Julia and I stays in the house, with regards to Nicolaas's class mates.
Julia is basically self supporting earning some money tutoring in Math and doing real estate deals. The plan is next year in the summer to set up house in Amsterdam.
I wish Tex every pleasure and may a fair amount of that pleasure pleasure be horizontal.
+100... :thumbsup:
Good luck with the house in Amsterdam.. tiphat
Not only horizontal please, it will get boring.. ;D
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Come on guys, leave him (Texan) alone, don't go on..
If he's happy with what he's doing, and happy with his lady, then its his life, he probably also knows the risk he is taking..
I wish him the best of luck..
:thumbsup:
There's risk on both sides. I don't know how long they've been dating but it seems it's over a year? Hopefully Texan will do right by the boy. If not he's causing pain and embarrassment to the boy and his mother.
This summer will be our third year. Guys you need to know she was in the LPR and her life was destroyed. I moved her to Zaporozhie to escape the war as she thought at first it would not last long. It was not until last September that she total gave up on ever moving back. What you guys do not consider is what baggage we carry from our past both her and me which is not something I want to post.
I am hoping to be able to spend much more time with them as we get the apartment fixed up. I hoping that the boy will be able to work with me and I will be able to teach him some home improvement skills. He turns 13 this summer.
The boy's father would not claim him so he has spent his life up until recently father less. When she tried to date Ukrainian men they would look at him as if he was a problem. The boy complained that he did not like her dating and would get very upset. I had her bring the boy on the first date and always let him know he was just as important as she was. Even Yana was completely surprised how he took to me right away.
She used to work as a book keeper for a chain of 6 furniture stores. She lost that job early in the war. It was impossible for her to find more work because of the recession in the Ukraine. She was also a hair stylist but decided she wants to do nails in the apartment. I paid for her go to nail school last winter. She is now interning with her teacher improving her skill level.
I am planning to be there in late May and I plan to return in July. I will be bringing her some of the supplies she will needs to start doing nails. In fact my suit case will hardly have any clothes in it.
I consider any money I spend there as spent. No deposit no return. I can afford this so do not to worry. The worse outcome for them is they get a free apartment and she gets a new income source. I hope the up side will be a lot more than that from an emotional support system she and her son have not enjoyed up until I came into their life. Even though it is part time, it is much better than what was there before.
You've gone up in my estimation. Humanitarian work on this scale will see this young family looked after for a long time.
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Thanks everyone for your comments.
Getting back to the Subject
This video is an up date to what is happening in Ukraine. The war is returning as well government still in crisis as GDP falls per person way below anything in Europe and hunger crisis grows in eastern Ukraine.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2016/04/14/ukraine-intv-amanpour-holmes-bociurkiw.cnn/video/playlists/amanpour/
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
What is the old saying? "Never bite the hand that feeds you."
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It will get worse:
http://observer.com/2016/04/new-wunderkind-ukrainian-pm-has-some-skeletons-in-his-closet/
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
What is the old saying? "Never bite the hand that feeds you."
Russia is like an abusive parent to the Ukraine. On one hand Russia feeds her on the other keeps her in a closet day and night. The Ukraine did not bit Russia it just wanted to leave the closet. The west promised the Ukraine a great life if she left Russia's closet then she was abandoned and left homeless in the snow. You guys keep picking on the Ukraine when it is a country that you should feel sorry for. For she has been abused and abandoned.
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
Can you honestly not see how ironic this article is..?
Ukraine chose the EU association route - did NOT choose to abandon trade with Russia..
Russia - when fearing that Yanu' would sign said agreement effectively closed the border for 7 days in Aug'13 - to demonstrate 'the suicide' of signing the EU trade agreement.. 'suicide' being the term used by the head of the Russian Customs service...
:'(
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
What is the old saying? "Never bite the hand that feeds you."
Russia is like an abusive parent to the Ukraine. On one hand Russia feeds her on the other keeps her in a closet day and night. The Ukraine did not bit Russia it just wanted to leave the closet. The west promised the Ukraine a great life if she left Russia's closet then she was abandoned and left homeless in the snow. You guys keep picking on the Ukraine when it is a country that you should feel sorry for. For she has been abused and abandoned.
I would probably refer to it (Ukraine) as a petulant child, one that borrows money from its mother with no means/or intentions to pay it back!
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
Can you honestly not see how ironic this article is..?
Ukraine chose the EU association route - did NOT choose to abandon trade with Russia..
Russia - when fearing that Yanu' would sign said agreement effectively closed the border for 7 days in Aug'13 - to demonstrate 'the suicide' of signing the EU trade agreement.. 'suicide' being the term used by the head of the Russian Customs service...
:'(
Unfortunately for Ukraine, one cannot be a part of CIS AND EU, something had to go..
Ukraine waned to try to keep the best of both worlds but in choosing the association to the EU route, lost CIS..
One cannot have the cake and eat it...
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
What is the old saying? "Never bite the hand that feeds you."
Russia is like an abusive parent to the Ukraine. On one hand Russia feeds her on the other keeps her in a closet day and night. The Ukraine did not bit Russia it just wanted to leave the closet. The west promised the Ukraine a great life if she left Russia's closet then she was abandoned and left homeless in the snow. You guys keep picking on the Ukraine when it is a country that you should feel sorry for. For she has been abused and abandoned.
Russia invested billions of $ into Ukraine over many years.
They moved various manufacturing and design plants into the country to assist with its economy.
They gave Ukraine in the region of $10 billion each year..
They wrote off massive sums every year to assist brother Ukraine, and much more..
Then Ukraine decides that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, whilst under the influence of EU and US money (Read Orange revolution & maiden).
One day you will all wake up to the real facts of what went on, and who was to blame.
So be it, if Ukraine wishes to be a part of the EU/52nd state of the US, ok, no problem, but all Russian support/business is gone..
Value of lost Russian business annually.. $40 billion.
Remember, Ukraine NEEDS Russia, Russia can live without Ukraine..
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
What is the old saying? "Never bite the hand that feeds you."
Russia is like an abusive parent to the Ukraine. On one hand Russia feeds her on the other keeps her in a closet day and night. The Ukraine did not bit Russia it just wanted to leave the closet. The west promised the Ukraine a great life if she left Russia's closet then she was abandoned and left homeless in the snow. You guys keep picking on the Ukraine when it is a country that you should feel sorry for. For she has been abused and abandoned.
I would probably refer to it (Ukraine) as a petulant child, one that borrows money from its mother with no means/or intentions to pay it back!
100% :thumbsup:
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Without Russia, it's doubtful Ukraine will ever turn things around.
Ukraine Estimates It Has Lost $100 Billion in Russia Trade
Used to be Ukraine's biggest trading partner
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-estimates-it-has-lost-100-billion/ri14011
What is the old saying? "Never bite the hand that feeds you."
Russia is like an abusive parent to the Ukraine. On one hand Russia feeds her on the other keeps her in a closet day and night. The Ukraine did not bit Russia it just wanted to leave the closet. The west promised the Ukraine a great life if she left Russia's closet then she was abandoned and left homeless in the snow. You guys keep picking on the Ukraine when it is a country that you should feel sorry for. For she has been abused and abandoned.
I cannot feel sorry for thieves, rogues, and people who borrow but have NO intention of paying back, its in there genetic make-up..
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This article is not current but I chose to cite it because of a humorous comment that it contained.
http://www.icis.com/resources/news/2016/04/06/9985150/loans-for-ukraine-s-gas-purchases-still-uncertain/
"The $300m loan from the EBRD is a three-year revolving scheme with the European Commission. The loan was also agreed last year, and over the past winter Ukraine bought 1.7 billion cubic metres of gas using the loan. If Ukraine repays the loan, it will be able to receive the money again.
An EBRD spokesman in Ukraine said it was 'too early to talk about the loan repayment.'”
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This is another article from about a year ago, but it explains how the west is taking advantage of Ukraine.
Russia was willing to absorb much of the debt Ukraine owed.
In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Why the West Doesn't Care Whether Ukraine Pays Back Loans
Western creditors stand to gain control of the country's natural resources through loans used as bait
http://russia-insider.com/en/why-west-doesnt-care-if-ukraine-pays-back-loans/5372
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Agree .
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Agree .
Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Indeed.
Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
....... :gousa:
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Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
....... :gousa:
I think the Ukrainian flag is like this :uaflag: and they would like to be allowed to run their country without physical 'help' from petulant neighbours or corruption.
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In truth the best outcome was what Yanukovych's and Putin's administrations were trying to arrange - a situation whereby Ukraine was open to the EU and also the RF/EEU, it was possible, but to make it happen required the cooperation of the EU. Sadly the EU and US made sure that could not happen and the EU STILL is not negotiating as they said they would do to make arrangements to enable Ukraine to trade within both blocs.
It was quite clear that Ukraine could not survive, much less thrive, without its ongoing trade with the RF/EEU. The choice to make sure that did not happen lay directly with the EU/US and the puppet coup regime.
The people of Ukraine were lied to.
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The people of Ukraine were lied to.
Yes, and the fibber ran away - before being arrested - 'helped by'..
The puppet - in the end was Yanu' ..
It is interesting you persist with this 'alice in wonderland' notion that the Kremlin were being 'kind'..it was stunts by them - 'inspecting' all Ukrainian lorries into Russia - to demonstrate how suicide would look' - the words of the Russian Customs Chief' - in late August '13 - that was the sign that was a positive recruiting drive for the likes of Euro-Maidan.
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I doubt this will ever be possible. :coffeeread:
Poroshenko Expects Donbass OSCE Police Mission in 'Nearest Future'
Read more:
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160422/1038453164/poroshenko-osce-donbass.html
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In truth the best outcome was what Yanukovych's and Putin's administrations were trying to arrange - a situation whereby Ukraine was open to the EU and also the RF/EEU, it was possible, but to make it happen required the cooperation of the EU. Sadly the EU and US made sure that could not happen and the EU STILL is not negotiating as they said they would do to make arrangements to enable Ukraine to trade within both blocs.
It was quite clear that Ukraine could not survive, much less thrive, without its ongoing trade with the RF/EEU. The choice to make sure that did not happen lay directly with the EU/US and the puppet coup regime.
The people of Ukraine were lied to.
Where did you see this?
Germany and other EU countries also did a huge business with Russia so why would the Ukraine not be able to do business with Russia if it were n the EU? This looks fishy to me.
My understanding is that Ukraine would have trade benefits that Russia did not have trading with EU countries. The Ukraine also has lower labor cost. The reason Putin was so up set was that he felt in the future maybe many Russia companies would move to the Ukraine to get these new trade benefits, lower labor cost and it would cost Russia income. Still the Ukraine speaks Russian and has a cultural not so foreign to Russian own businesses. In order to avoid any migration of business Putin destroyed the Ukraine so it will never be able to do this any time in the future.
All of this stuff about the destruction of Ukraine has nothing to do with maiden, or any of the other crap we argue on this site. This was simply a trade war that Russia was not about to lose.
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In truth the best outcome was what Yanukovych's and Putin's administrations were trying to arrange - a situation whereby Ukraine was open to the EU and also the RF/EEU, it was possible, but to make it happen required the cooperation of the EU. Sadly the EU and US made sure that could not happen and the EU STILL is not negotiating as they said they would do to make arrangements to enable Ukraine to trade within both blocs.
It was quite clear that Ukraine could not survive, much less thrive, without its ongoing trade with the RF/EEU. The choice to make sure that did not happen lay directly with the EU/US and the puppet coup regime.
The people of Ukraine were lied to.
Where did you see this?
Germany and other EU countries also did a huge business with Russia so why would the Ukraine not be able to do business with Russia if it were n the EU? This looks fishy to me.
My understanding is that Ukraine would have trade benefits that Russia did not have trading with EU countries. The Ukraine also has lower labor cost. The reason Putin was so up set was that he felt in the future maybe many Russia companies would move to the Ukraine to get these new trade benefits, lower labor cost and it would cost Russia income. Still the Ukraine speaks Russian and has a cultural not so foreign to Russian own businesses. In order to avoid any migration of business Putin destroyed the Ukraine so it will never be able to do this any time in the future.
All of this stuff about the destruction of Ukraine has nothing to do with maiden, or any of the other crap we argue on this site. This was simply a trade war that Russia was not about to lose.
While I do not know hard numbers I know of one firm that indeed did the jump from Russia to Ukraine for tax and trade reasons. What Tex is alluding to makes some sense.
The bigger issue and that is either the ignorance or naivety of team Putin's RUA cheer leaders is the will of the people of Ukraine. They have not nor will they any time soon forget Russian actions in the past. Some can spout all the supposed intervention of the West, but what I heard and saw pointed to reaction to the excessive stupidity and avarice driven with brutality of the ousted 'leaders'.
While it is a challenge to understand for the armchair experts of RUA, Russia has lost Ukraine.
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Poroshenko, seems to be cleansing Ukraine of all Russian culture.
Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko Bans Russian Movies
http://www.news18.com/news/movies/ukraines-president-petro-poroshenko-bans-russian-movies-1232755.html
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Poroshenko, seems to be cleansing Ukraine of all Russian culture.
Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko Bans Russian Movies
http://www.news18.com/news/movies/ukraines-president-petro-poroshenko-bans-russian-movies-1232755.html
Don't you read your own links ?
It's post 2014 films only
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Poroshenko, seems to be cleansing Ukraine of all Russian culture.
Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko Bans Russian Movies
http://www.news18.com/news/movies/ukraines-president-petro-poroshenko-bans-russian-movies-1232755.html
Don't you read your own links ?
It's post 2014 films only
Read again,
The bill that Poroshenko signed recently also bans all movies produced by Russian companies and Russian citizens after 1991 if they "glorify the work of government bodies" of Russia
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The bill that Poroshenko signed recently also bans all movies produced by Russian companies and Russian citizens after 1991 if they "glorify the work of government bodies" of Russia
My 'bad'
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Indeed.
Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
.......
Let's see --- Russian snipers infiltrated the Ukrainian intelligence services and murdered protestors. Russian little green men suddenly showed up in Crimea and physically took over the Crimean Parliament and held a bogus referendum which violated Ukrainian law.
Then Russia sent their FSB/GRU Colonel over to East Ukraine and attempted to repeat the process there. Tanks from Russia. Artillery fired from Russia to kill Ukrainians in the siege and encirclement of Debaltsevo. Russian soldiers sent in to Ukraine with a BUK missile system which mistakenly fired on a civilian aircraft, murdering the passengers in cold blood. Russian GRU Colonel and company gleefully posted they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft, until they realized it was a civilian aircraft.
Theft of Crimea -- Billions of dollars owed by Russia to Ukraine.
War damage committed by Russia against Ukraine -- hundreds of BILLIONS, not in rubles, in Dollars.
Yeah Russia!! :RUS:
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In truth the best outcome was what Yanukovych's and Putin's administrations were trying to arrange - a situation whereby Ukraine was open to the EU and also the RF/EEU, it was possible, but to make it happen required the cooperation of the EU. Sadly the EU and US made sure that could not happen and the EU STILL is not negotiating as they said they would do to make arrangements to enable Ukraine to trade within both blocs.
It was quite clear that Ukraine could not survive, much less thrive, without its ongoing trade with the RF/EEU. The choice to make sure that did not happen lay directly with the EU/US and the puppet coup regime.
The people of Ukraine were lied to.
Where did you see this?
Germany and other EU countries also did a huge business with Russia so why would the Ukraine not be able to do business with Russia if it were n the EU? This looks fishy to me.
My understanding is that Ukraine would have trade benefits that Russia did not have trading with EU countries. The Ukraine also has lower labor cost. The reason Putin was so up set was that he felt in the future maybe many Russia companies would move to the Ukraine to get these new trade benefits, lower labor cost and it would cost Russia income. Still the Ukraine speaks Russian and has a cultural not so foreign to Russian own businesses. In order to avoid any migration of business Putin destroyed the Ukraine so it will never be able to do this any time in the future.
All of this stuff about the destruction of Ukraine has nothing to do with maiden, or any of the other crap we argue on this site. This was simply a trade war that Russia was not about to lose.
While I do not know hard numbers I know of one firm that indeed did the jump from Russia to Ukraine for tax and trade reasons. What Tex is alluding to makes some sense.
The bigger issue and that is either the ignorance or naivety of team Putin's RUA cheer leaders is the will of the people of Ukraine. They have not nor will they any time soon forget Russian actions in the past. Some can spout all the supposed intervention of the West, but what I heard and saw pointed to reaction to the excessive stupidity and avarice driven with brutality of the ousted 'leaders'.
While it is a challenge to understand for the armchair experts of RUA, Russia has lost Ukraine.
Moving a Russian business into Ukraine for tax/trade reasons is not an easy process.
Many Russian/Ukrainian businesses have either the Mother Company in Russia, and the sister company in Ukraine, or vice versa, which would make the process of moving orders/supply to the other country easier, but would make serious problems for the side losing the work.
There are at least 25 large companies who have already switched their business out of Ukraine into Russia, which makes a large loss to Ukraine's economy and large job losses, with more planning to move.
On the other foot, there are reportedly about 200 Ukrainian businesses who have already moved their businesses out and into the EU, with Poland, Slovenia and Hungary being amongst the leading destinations.
Even Poroshenko has moved much of his choccy making empire out of the country and into Czech Republic (I think that's where it is now), causing Ukraine further hardship/job losses.
So, IF the President in his wisdom leaves the country with much of his business activities, what hope is there for those who choose to remain, especially under the EU (Un) fair trade agreement and strict quotas with Ukraine
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^Ukrainians did not like the corrupt puppet Yanukovich, but they've learned the hard way that upsetting his master was even worse than they could have imagined.
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^Ukrainians did not like the corrupt puppet Yanukovich, but they've learned the hard way that upsetting his master was even worse than they could have imagined.
They also don't like the corrupt puppet Poroshenko, and are still to learn an even harder lesson if they upset his masters.
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Indeed.
Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
.......
Let's see --- Russian snipers infiltrated the Ukrainian intelligence services and murdered protestors. Russian little green men suddenly showed up in Crimea and physically took over the Crimean Parliament and held a bogus referendum which violated Ukrainian law.
Then Russia sent their FSB/GRU Colonel over to East Ukraine and attempted to repeat the process there. Tanks from Russia. Artillery fired from Russia to kill Ukrainians in the siege and encirclement of Debaltsevo. Russian soldiers sent in to Ukraine with a BUK missile system which mistakenly fired on a civilian aircraft, murdering the passengers in cold blood. Russian GRU Colonel and company gleefully posted they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft, until they realized it was a civilian aircraft.
Theft of Crimea -- Billions of dollars owed by Russia to Ukraine.
War damage committed by Russia against Ukraine -- hundreds of BILLIONS, not in rubles, in Dollars.
Yeah Russia!! :RUS:
Yeah, right...
Utter bollox being the operative words..
Back to your armchair cowboy...
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^Ukrainians did not like the corrupt puppet Yanukovich, but they've learned the hard way that upsetting his master was even worse than they could have imagined.
They also don't like the corrupt puppet Poroshenko, and are still to learn an even harder lesson if they upset his masters.
While Poroshenko started it seems with the best of intentions, the reality is the corruption is so endemic to Ukraine that he is stuck in a swamp. He has lost the good will of the public.
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^Ukrainians did not like the corrupt puppet Yanukovich, but they've learned the hard way that upsetting his master was even worse than they could have imagined.
They also don't like the corrupt puppet Poroshenko, and are still to learn an even harder lesson if they upset his masters.
While Poroshenko started it seems with the best of intentions, the reality is the corruption is so endemic to Ukraine that he is stuck in a swamp. He has lost the good will of the public.
Well spotted.. tiphat
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Even Poroshenko has moved much of his choccy making empire out of the country and into Czech Republic (I think that's where it is now), causing Ukraine further hardship/job losses.
Tax haven Netherlands... Dutch newspapers did the digging to support a no-vote for the EU/UKR association agreement.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/04/feynman___poroshenko_busted.html
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^Ukrainians did not like the corrupt puppet Yanukovich, but they've learned the hard way that upsetting his master was even worse than they could have imagined.
They also don't like the corrupt puppet Poroshenko, and are still to learn an even harder lesson if they upset his masters.
While Poroshenko started it seems with the best of intentions, the reality is the corruption is so endemic to Ukraine that he is stuck in a swamp. He has lost the good will of the public.
He may have started with the best intentions, but he surely turned around fast.
He saved his millions by moving his business to Netherlands, at the same day he was dropping bombs on Donbass.
The cynic in me says: He knew it wouldn't be as fast a war as he said on national TV, he probably knew there was a huge chance of failure... Which it indeed has become , as always when you send the military against your own civilians.
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/04/feynman___poroshenko_busted.html
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Just a note.
As to me in order to understand the real situation in Ukraine it should be better to visit all the parts of the country , talk to ordinary people, listen to what they think and say. Then one may draw a more or less real canvas.
When one make conclusions reading newspapers, watching tv news & internet bloggers, the picture would be artificial & false.
The facts that striking hearts: ukrainian people's level of life extremely goes down if we compare with 2013. Death rates are extremely high. The incidents of tuberculosis, pneumonia, ie social diseases grow and become "younger".
I have no wish to express my thoughts of Maidan, there were much aggression between those who were for maidan and those who wanted to keep good relation with Russia being against Maidan.
I am sure that a country should change step by step, bearing in mind all the peculiarities of its history and relations with neighbors. There could not be changes right off the bat, especially in the country like Ukraine, it's big and inhomogeneous, people here have diametrically opposite opinions. The question is : when will politicians think like adults and not impulsive children. The answer is: never. :GRRRR:
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Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
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Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
If you wear a stab vest and take a kalashnikov Im sure it will be ok!! :thumbsup:
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Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
I, as an Englishman, do not get any problems when I visit on business, but when there late last year on a private visit, several non too nice comments were heard..
I think that you will be ok in Kiev.
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If you wear a stab vest and take a kalashnikov Im sure it will be ok!! :thumbsup:
Exactly!
My aunt live in Murmansk (Russia) , I live in the South of Ukraine and I recommend her not to come. No one knows what they can do with a russian citizen on the border.
There are many ukrainians who hates russians. As to me it is unadequate behaviar. Phobia of Russia is some kind of psycho-disease.
For me it's very difficult to see and feel this hatred : I have been living in Moscow 7 years, and I finished one of the best university-MSU, my best friends live in Russia. Just crazy politics, no rational thinking.
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Indeed.
Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
.......
Let's see --- Russian snipers infiltrated the Ukrainian intelligence services and murdered protestors. Russian little green men suddenly showed up in Crimea and physically took over the Crimean Parliament and held a bogus referendum which violated Ukrainian law.
Then Russia sent their FSB/GRU Colonel over to East Ukraine and attempted to repeat the process there. Tanks from Russia. Artillery fired from Russia to kill Ukrainians in the siege and encirclement of Debaltsevo. Russian soldiers sent in to Ukraine with a BUK missile system which mistakenly fired on a civilian aircraft, murdering the passengers in cold blood. Russian GRU Colonel and company gleefully posted they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft, until they realized it was a civilian aircraft.
Theft of Crimea -- Billions of dollars owed by Russia to Ukraine.
War damage committed by Russia against Ukraine -- hundreds of BILLIONS, not in rubles, in Dollars.
Yeah Russia!! :RUS:
Thanks for confirming the exact sequence of events and confirming it all with verified sources. So nothing to do with the EU/US at all then..... :coffeeread:
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Just a note.
As to me in order to understand the real situation in Ukraine it should be better to visit all the parts of the country , talk to ordinary people, listen to what they think and say. Then one may draw a more or less real canvas.
When one make conclusions reading newspapers, watching tv news & internet bloggers, the picture would be artificial & false.
The facts that striking hearts: ukrainian people's level of life extremely goes down if we compare with 2013. Death rates are extremely high. The incidents of tuberculosis, pneumonia, ie social diseases grow and become "younger".
I have no wish to express my thoughts of Maidan, there were much aggression between those who were for maidan and those who wanted to keep good relation with Russia being against Maidan.
I am sure that a country should change step by step, bearing in mind all the peculiarities of its history and relations with neighbors. There could not be changes right off the bat, especially in the country like Ukraine, it's big and inhomogeneous, people here have diametrically opposite opinions. The question is : when will politicians think like adults and not impulsive children. The answer is: never. :GRRRR:
A very good post. My opinion is that those militants from W. Ukraine (those who think Bandera was a hero) had too much power at Maidan. Such a violent overthrow of the government was not in the interests of all the people of Ukraine.
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In reality Russia was the best option for a prosperous future, but Ukraine chose to side with the west.
Indeed.
Rightly or wrongly - Ukraine did choose... and the 'reaction' was petulance and 'civil war' - stirred up and supplied by ...
.......
Let's see --- Russian snipers infiltrated the Ukrainian intelligence services and murdered protestors. Russian little green men suddenly showed up in Crimea and physically took over the Crimean Parliament and held a bogus referendum which violated Ukrainian law.
Then Russia sent their FSB/GRU Colonel over to East Ukraine and attempted to repeat the process there. Tanks from Russia. Artillery fired from Russia to kill Ukrainians in the siege and encirclement of Debaltsevo. Russian soldiers sent in to Ukraine with a BUK missile system which mistakenly fired on a civilian aircraft, murdering the passengers in cold blood. Russian GRU Colonel and company gleefully posted they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft, until they realized it was a civilian aircraft.
Theft of Crimea -- Billions of dollars owed by Russia to Ukraine.
War damage committed by Russia against Ukraine -- hundreds of BILLIONS, not in rubles, in Dollars.
Yeah Russia!! :RUS:
Thanks for confirming the exact sequence of events and confirming it all with verified sources. So nothing to do with the EU/US at all then..... :coffeeread:
Trade war. EU and USA want to trade with Ukraine as part of EU. Russia did not what this to happen to keep business from moving from Russia.
First Russia tried to get Ukraine to join their group and was not collecting on owe money for gas. When this was not working then Russia tried to up the anti by offering the Ukraine 12 billion dollars in loans which Tom cat has said they would have never to pay back. That was working until maiden. Then Russia wants maiden to happen to disrupt Ukraine so country would be disorganized and could not resist when they would be taking Crimea. When there was no way to stop the Ukraine from not join the EU and lose there much of their business base then Russia destroys Ukraine so it can not join the EU. No one thought that Russia would stoop to this level and had cause a lot of miss calculation both I the west and in the Ukraine.
Yes the USA and Europe did encourage the Ukraine to join. Yes at one point the Ukraine had hoped the USA would be very helpful to the Ukraine and would do anything we ask. Sadly Obama never cared much about the Ukraine nor did the USA population and they never got the help they were expecting. So now they do not give a dam about USA other than the money we give them.
LPR and DPR were both expecting massive help for Russia they never got neither. The people there feel abandoned, used and can not believe how the promised of prosperity turned out.
Russia also missed calculated the size of the problem also. Russia though that the Ukraine would give up easily and it would be a short war. They had hoped that all they would have to do is send advisor propaganda and promises of a better life to win in the DPR and LPR as Russia was popular in the region. When that did not work the they sent mercenaries ( or should we say paid volunteer ) and offer special benefits when regular Army people would take leave in Ukraine to fight. Finally when that was not enough they would send regular army during key battles.
Russia never thought the sanction would stay in place so long and cost Russia as much as it did.
Russia never thought that so much money would leave the country because of Ukraine war.
Russia did not expect the price of oil to drop so much.
EU and USA also miscalculated as to what extent Russia would go to keep the Ukraine out of the EU. EU and USA thought after the loss of Crimea that was all Russia would do. There was not much in the way of sanction and they would ended soon. The war escalated far more than the west thought it would. The Ukraine was also far more destroyed than the west thought it would be. The Ukraine government is a lot less functional then the west thought it would be at this time.
It seems there was a lot of mistakes to go around here on nearly all sides. When you get to it this was a trade war that Russia was willing to do anything to win. On the trade side they won but their cost was much higher than they hoped for. The really big loser here was the Ukraine as they did not think Russia would destroy there country if they tried to join the EU.
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^ Wake up Tex, you're dreaming again.... :chuckle:
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Victoria Nuland will bestow her beauty, charm and support upon the dregs of Ukraine today.
Read about it here:
http://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-politycs/2006760-nuland-sogodni-vidvidae-ukrainu.html
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^ Wake up Tex, you're dreaming again.... :chuckle:
Sadly enough I would not chuckle. While some of the colours that Tex paints his picture with are wrong the big picture is correct.
Putin gambles and in the end the citizens have lost. :(
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^ Wake up Tex, you're dreaming again.... :chuckle:
Sadly enough I would not chuckle. While some of the colours that Tex paints his picture with are wrong the big picture is correct.
Putin gambles and in the end the citizens have lost. :(
How on earth could this be a trade war..??
For many years Russia had been virtually the only export market of any real value to Ukraine.
Russian exports into Ukraine were small in comparison.
Russia was financing Ukraine to the tune of about $10 billion/year as a gift.
And allowing them to receive gas without paying for it.. along with the many other things which they never paid for..
Seriously, Russia is much better off without the Ukraine millstone around its neck.
The EU only wants Ukraines raw materials, not its produce, hence such low quotas ( they are protecting their own manufacturers/businesses)
The EU & US wish to own as much of Ukraines infrastructure, finance, land, reserves of gas/oil/other materials.
In reality, everyone, friend/foe are screwing the Ukrainians, and their government is allowing it to happen, they will be deep in debt for many years to come..
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Just a note.
As to me in order to understand the real situation in Ukraine it should be better to visit all the parts of the country , talk to ordinary people, listen to what they think and say. Then one may draw a more or less real canvas.
When one make conclusions reading newspapers, watching tv news & internet bloggers, the picture would be artificial & false.
The facts that striking hearts: ukrainian people's level of life extremely goes down if we compare with 2013. Death rates are extremely high. The incidents of tuberculosis, pneumonia, ie social diseases grow and become "younger".
I have no wish to express my thoughts of Maidan, there were much aggression between those who were for maidan and those who wanted to keep good relation with Russia being against Maidan.
I am sure that a country should change step by step, bearing in mind all the peculiarities of its history and relations with neighbors. There could not be changes right off the bat, especially in the country like Ukraine, it's big and inhomogeneous, people here have diametrically opposite opinions. The question is : when will politicians think like adults and not impulsive children. The answer is: never. :GRRRR:
Thank you Czenny for a well-balanced view from a Ukrainian.
The vast majority of Americans, Europeans and Westerners will never fully understand the peculiarities of Ukraine's history nor its relations with its neighbors, especially its relationship with Russia. This is beyond evident as you read posts from them.
I have often said on this forum that outsiders need to be patient with Ukraine, as well as and mostly about Russia, with reforms counter to the "old" system. Unfortunately, most outsiders expect things to happen quickly as if all we had to do is just add water and everything will be nice.
Most posters here sit back in the comfort of their homes forming opinions on things by what they read in their rags, see on their TV, and hear from others with an agenda; e.g politicians, journalists, and psuedo-experts/real time idiots.
The old Soviet system was complex to say the least. Not only how multi-layered the system was, but the depth that it extended. That depth suggests that it will take generations for many reforms to genuinely take hold. Putin himself often has had his hands tied trying to make changes to the system in Russia, but people here think that his power is such that changes are easy within the “layers"; they're anything but. And people on this forum think a bunch of Westerners can just come in a make it work overnight (:).
It's amazing how much Putin has been able to effect change in Russia given the vastness of the system and the obstacles he has to overcome. He literally needs to be in 10 places at once to get things done.
At some point we have to place some/most of the blame on Ukraine for its own problems, yet Russia seems an easy target for the uneducated, lazy, or just plain ignorant on this forum.
I, and others here, stated long ago that Ukraine was going to suffer tremendously because of the West's insistence in sticking its nose where it didn't belong and its impatience; now we can start to see this prediction coming true. The West/America only cares about the bottom line; not the Ukrainian people.
The sad thing is, it will only continue to get worse before it gets better.
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^The Ukrainian people themselves made choices, which turned out to be bad choices. Attempting to blame the USA is silly. However what you wrote about the Soviet system and how long and how difficult the process could be to effect long term change -- no doubt that part is 100% correct.
Putin himself stated that Yanukovych was an unethical man. Ukrainians wanted him gone. It was their choice to make. Clearly the USA could have and should have been more careful in their actions. No doubt the USA should have kept John McCain far away, as well as loud mouth neo-con Nuland. No doubt Russia should have been consulted before anything was attempted by the USA.
This does not change the fact that Ukraine and Ukrainians were reaching out to the West.
Bear in mind that the Obama administration is the most corrupt, inept and incompetent administration in our history. Imagine if Jim Baker had been Secretary of State. Instead there's idiot Hillary who could not be bothered to check with a genuine Russian if the "reset" button was spelled correctly or made sense in Russian culture. Then there is John Kerry, who seems to have gotten somewhat better.
You win more flies with honey. Ukraine rejected Russia's offer of 10 Billion a year, etc.
Diplomacy did not work because of Russia's historical record in Ukraine -- Holodomor by Stalin, etc.
Putin then sent "little green men" and tanks. That's where it is now. Ukrainians turned against Russia. How some continue to attempt to blame the USA and the EU is very questionable.
Ukraine sees that other former Iron Curtain Eastern European countries seem to be much better off w/out Russia.
So in that the USA has been successful with the Marshall Plan for Germany, etc. Yes, It's all our fault.
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^You just don't get it and never will.
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^You just don't get it and never will.
Neither do you. Your head is so far deep in the propaganda, how could you possibly see anything? I suggest you go and live and work in Ukraine for a few years before you continue with your anti-West spiel.
And I don't mean that as a dig, I just think it's normal that if a person lives and works in Moscow, they are going to take the Russian viewpoint not only for survival but for success.
Just as if a person were living and working in Kiev or Kharkov or especially L'vov, that person would most likely see the other side of the coin and adapt to a pro-Ukrainian standpoint.
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Tell me again how many times you've been to Ukraine or Russia? Once maybe. You have your opinion, i'm not tying to change it. You sure and the :censored: are not going to change mine with what you know.
I have no desire to debate you on anything FSU. Not because you know so much (because you don't), but because I don't feel like sticking my head that far up my ass to see your point of view.
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Tell me again how many times you've been to Ukraine or Russia? Once maybe. You have your opinion, i'm not tying to change it. You sure and the :censored: are not going to change mine with what you know.
I have no desire to debate you on anything FSU. Not because you know so much (because you don't), but because I don't feel like sticking my head that far up my ass to see your point of view.
That's real cute, and it's a pretty good summary of why Ukrainians for the most part now dislike Russia.
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Sadly enough I would not chuckle. While some of the colours that Tex paints his picture with are wrong the big picture is correct.
Putin gambles and in the end the citizens have lost. :(
How on earth could this be a trade war..??
For many years Russia had been virtually the only export market of any real value to Ukraine.
Russian exports into Ukraine were small in comparison.
Russia was financing Ukraine to the tune of about $10 billion/year as a gift.
And allowing them to receive gas without paying for it.. along with the many other things which they never paid for..
Seriously, Russia is much better off without the Ukraine millstone around its neck.
Because if the Ukraine joined the EU then Russian companies were thought to maybe leave Russia and set shop in the Ukraine to take advantages of better trading conditions with the west. This would cost Russia tax dollars and work for its citizens. The Ukraine could of even offered them a tax holiday to make the move.
May I ask you why you think Russia was paying the Ukraine so much? The answer is they did not want them in the EU. It was worth much more than ten billion dollars to Russia to keep Ukraine out of the EU. If you have better answer please write about it and stop just complaining because it is not in Russian propaganda.
Yes Russia is better off without a European Ukraine that is why Russia killed Ukraine. You are completely correct.
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^Gypsy conveniently forgot that Mr. Putin had forged a trade deal with Kazakhstan, Belarus and he hoped Ukraine as well. Ukraine's desire to have more trade with the EU instead ruined Putin's plans. Yes, Texan is right, part of it is a trade war. The other part is simply Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country. Unfortunately the old Sovetic system created by Russia is too deeply entrenched.
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Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
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Wake up Tex, you're dreaming again.... :chuckle:
Well done, Tex ...SPOT ON .. ignore those with closed minds or agendas to promote misinfo..
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Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
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Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
When I said "Ukraine" I was speaking of what the average person wanted. Yes it's true that the kleptocrats have stolen money. Before they did, it was Yanukovich and his people who stole money.
Sadly it's the average person who has suffered greatly, as posted by Czenny.
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Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
Not to worry. With over 1 Billion Chinese slowly infiltrating Russia's far east the outcome is inevitable. I wish I were alive to see the Chinese say "we had to invade Russia in order to protect ethnic Chinese speakers". :laugh:
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Wake up Tex, you're dreaming again.... :chuckle:
Well done, Tex ...SPOT ON .. ignore those with closed minds or agendas to promote misinfo..
That's very rich coming from you, the forum troll... :coffeeread:
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Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians Americans feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
I would suggest that there are many other countries world wide who feel that Ukrainians are dumb and second class people, a bit like how the US feels about Mexicans..
Its pretty obvious that you are your G/f's mouthpiece, as your knowledge of Ukraine/Ukrainians has been limited to a few visits for a couple of weeks at a time, maybe best that you hold your horses cowboy, until you have more concrete knowledge about the country and its people, rather than second hand horseshit which you are constantly spouting.
Maybe best that you restrain yourself from spouting crap about Russia, or anywhere else for that matter, until you have cleaned up your own governments past misdeeds/mistakes/invasions.
Remember, people in glass houses etc, etc.
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Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians Americans feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
I would suggest that there are many other countries world wide who feel that Ukrainians are dumb and second class people, a bit like how the US feels about Mexicans..
Its pretty obvious that you are your G/f's mouthpiece, as your knowledge of Ukraine/Ukrainians has been limited to a few visits for a couple of weeks at a time, maybe best that you hold your horses cowboy, until you have more concrete knowledge about the country and its people, rather than second hand horseshit which you are constantly spouting.
Maybe best that you restrain yourself from spouting crap about Russia, or anywhere else for that matter, until you have cleaned up your own governments past misdeeds/mistakes/invasions.
Remember, people in glass houses etc, etc.
I sort doubt anyone active on RUA can do much to clean up there respective governments. But Tex has a point about how Russia views Ukraine and its citizens.
Just curious when was the last time you were in Ukraine?
It seems allot are experts present on a country that they have never visited, but they bring allot of prejudice with there 'opinions'.
-
Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians Americans feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
I would suggest that there are many other countries world wide who feel that Ukrainians are dumb and second class people, a bit like how the US feels about Mexicans..
Its pretty obvious that you are your G/f's mouthpiece, as your knowledge of Ukraine/Ukrainians has been limited to a few visits for a couple of weeks at a time, maybe best that you hold your horses cowboy, until you have more concrete knowledge about the country and its people, rather than second hand horseshit which you are constantly spouting.
Maybe best that you restrain yourself from spouting crap about Russia, or anywhere else for that matter, until you have cleaned up your own governments past misdeeds/mistakes/invasions.
Remember, people in glass houses etc, etc.
I sort doubt anyone active on RUA can do much to clean up there respective governments. But Tex has a point about how Russia views Ukraine and its citizens.
Just curious when was the last time you were in Ukraine?
It seems allot are experts present on a country that they have never visited, but they bring allot of prejudice with there 'opinions'.
January 2016, for 2 weeks.. private visit.
November 2015 for 3 weeks.. Business.
Last year, about 11 weeks of visits in total, mostly for business.
And You??
-
Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians Americans feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
I would suggest that there are many other countries world wide who feel that Ukrainians are dumb and second class people, a bit like how the US feels about Mexicans..
Its pretty obvious that you are your G/f's mouthpiece, as your knowledge of Ukraine/Ukrainians has been limited to a few visits for a couple of weeks at a time, maybe best that you hold your horses cowboy, until you have more concrete knowledge about the country and its people, rather than second hand horseshit which you are constantly spouting.
Maybe best that you restrain yourself from spouting crap about Russia, or anywhere else for that matter, until you have cleaned up your own governments past misdeeds/mistakes/invasions.
Remember, people in glass houses etc, etc.
I sort doubt anyone active on RUA can do much to clean up there respective governments. But Tex has a point about how Russia views Ukraine and its citizens.
Just curious when was the last time you were in Ukraine?
It seems allot are experts present on a country that they have never visited, but they bring allot of prejudice with there 'opinions'.
I would say anyone here who complained about the Ukrainian folk being labelled and picked on do a simple task... Move to Ukraine , set up a small business with the help of "The local folk" employ some "local folk" then come back to the forum and tell everyone how they got on with their venture ;D And Im not speaking about arriving in Ukraine for 2/3 weeks employing a local gardner or electrician for a few handy jobs.
Of course there are good people in Ukraine just like any other place on the planet.. I don't dispute this.
But when it comes to corruption and stealing Ukraine has it down to a T all the way down the line.
That will take generations to get out of the system..
-
Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians Americans feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
I would suggest that there are many other countries world wide who feel that Ukrainians are dumb and second class people, a bit like how the US feels about Mexicans..
Its pretty obvious that you are your G/f's mouthpiece, as your knowledge of Ukraine/Ukrainians has been limited to a few visits for a couple of weeks at a time, maybe best that you hold your horses cowboy, until you have more concrete knowledge about the country and its people, rather than second hand horseshit which you are constantly spouting.
Maybe best that you restrain yourself from spouting crap about Russia, or anywhere else for that matter, until you have cleaned up your own governments past misdeeds/mistakes/invasions.
Remember, people in glass houses etc, etc.
I sort doubt anyone active on RUA can do much to clean up there respective governments. But Tex has a point about how Russia views Ukraine and its citizens.
Just curious when was the last time you were in Ukraine?
It seems allot are experts present on a country that they have never visited, but they bring allot of prejudice with there 'opinions'.
January 2016, for 2 weeks.. private visit.
November 2015 for 3 weeks.. Business.
Last year, about 11 weeks of visits in total, mostly for business.
And You??
:thumbsup:
-
Ukraine wanted to move to western standards for their country.
Ukraine wanted to ensure their oligarchs and kleptocrats had access to unlimited EU money.
Nearly everyone Russia seems to have a thing they believe that everything Ukrainian is inferior. That Ukrainians are dumb and second class people. Then they wonder why the majority in Ukraine do not want anything to do with Russia.
This to a lessor degree seems to extend all across eastern Europe that Russians Americans feel they are better than everyone else. So maybe you guys get this from your wives. The only thing Russia has that these other countries do not have is Siberia and it's the large number of natural resources. This is not anything smart the Russian people do in there present lives, it is something they got lone ago by being aggressive.
I would suggest that there are many other countries world wide who feel that Ukrainians are dumb and second class people, a bit like how the US feels about Mexicans..
Its pretty obvious that you are your G/f's mouthpiece, as your knowledge of Ukraine/Ukrainians has been limited to a few visits for a couple of weeks at a time, maybe best that you hold your horses cowboy, until you have more concrete knowledge about the country and its people, rather than second hand horseshit which you are constantly spouting.
Maybe best that you restrain yourself from spouting crap about Russia, or anywhere else for that matter, until you have cleaned up your own governments past misdeeds/mistakes/invasions.
Remember, people in glass houses etc, etc.
I sort doubt anyone active on RUA can do much to clean up there respective governments. But Tex has a point about how Russia views Ukraine and its citizens.
Just curious when was the last time you were in Ukraine?
It seems allot are experts present on a country that they have never visited, but they bring allot of prejudice with there 'opinions'.
January 2016, for 2 weeks.. private visit.
November 2015 for 3 weeks.. Business.
Last year, about 11 weeks of visits in total, mostly for business.
And You??
Do you work directly for the Russian government in some sort of capacity? :laugh:
-
^ I work for my own UK based limited company, no one else..
Soon to cease and enjoy my freedom..
-
^ I work for my own UK based limited company, no one else..
Soon to cease and enjoy my freedom..
What kind of illegal business are you in to have to keep your business a secrete? You travel to shady countries like Ukraine where everyone lies, steals, and has ramped corruption for eleven weeks you must be doing something illegal. There is no legal business in this country and I completely know this because Manny and Steveboy has said so.
-
^ I work for my own UK based limited company, no one else..
Soon to cease and enjoy my freedom..
What kind of illegal business are you in to have to keep your business a secrete? You travel to shady countries like Ukraine where everyone lies, steals, and has ramped corruption for eleven weeks you must be doing something illegal. There is no legal business in this country and I completely know this because Manny and Steveboy has said so.
For a bloke who has yet to grasp that there is no "the" before Ukraine, I wouldn't try to interpret my words if I were you. You will likely end up, as here, incorrect.
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January 2016, for 2 weeks.. private visit.
November 2015 for 3 weeks.. Business.
Last year, about 11 weeks of visits in total, mostly for business.
And You??
Russia in 2015 for one week, this excludes consulting in the West of the Czech Republic for Russians.
Ukraine 4 visits in 2015 with a total of 12 weeks. I describe the non-working elements elsewhere on RUA. Visiting three different regions.
In 2016 a good part of January and some of March and April, Primarily in Kiev.
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^ I work for my own UK based limited company, no one else..
Soon to cease and enjoy my freedom..
What kind of illegal business are you in to have to keep your business a secrete? You travel to shady countries like Ukraine where everyone lies, steals, and has ramped corruption for eleven weeks you must be doing something illegal. There is no legal business in this country and I completely know this because Manny and Steveboy has said so.
I am in a business which makes lots of money for my clients, and enough for my business..
I do not earn a living by taking from the poor...
-
January 2016, for 2 weeks.. private visit.
November 2015 for 3 weeks.. Business.
Last year, about 11 weeks of visits in total, mostly for business.
And You??
Russia in 2015 for one week, this excludes consulting in the West of the Czech Republic for Russians.
Ukraine 4 visits in 2015 with a total of 12 weeks. I describe the non-working elements elsewhere on RUA. Visiting three different regions.
In 2016 a good part of January and some of March and April, Primarily in Kiev.
:thumbsup:
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Tensions, violence rise in Ukraine as Western powers urge reforms
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/05/01/tensions-violence-rise-ukraine-western-powers-urge-reforms/83791890/
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Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
Trip back on, with a bit of a caveat. Here's the itinerary...
1. Family all meet in Kiev, us from UK, them from RU to meet up with the Kiev branch of the family.
2. Everyone them flies off to Minsk to meet the Belarus branch.
3. We fly back to Kiev, then home.
a. I need a visa for Belarus, looks cheap enough, apart from the crap looking Sov-style official hotels you have to book but is it worth it cos just for me it'll be just to see Minsk? And it's only for three days, the family fun is mostly in Kiev.
b. Babushka doesn't have a 'travelling passport' - we've heard that now you need one to travel to ex-CIS states, anyone know?
Prolly best if I stay in Kiev, never been and always fancied it, never even given Minsk a thought so probably wasted on me.
-
Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
Trip back on, with a bit of a caveat. Here's the itinerary...
1. Family all meet in Kiev, us from UK, them from RU to meet up with the Kiev branch of the family.
2. Everyone them flies off to Minsk to meet the Belarus branch.
3. We fly back to Kiev, then home.
a. I need a visa for Belarus, looks cheap enough, apart from the crap looking Sov-style official hotels you have to book but is it worth it cos just for me it'll be just to see Minsk? And it's only for three days, the family fun is mostly in Kiev.
b. Babushka doesn't have a 'travelling passport' - we've heard that now you need one to travel to ex-CIS states, anyone know?
Prolly best if I stay in Kiev, never been and always fancied it, never even given Minsk a thought so probably wasted on me.
Nads done a bit of research, seems you do need a full international passport now, and Russian men *may* be denied entry, though God knows what her Dad's gonna do for the pro-Russian rebels, annoy them probably....
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As I understand from some one who worked at Passport control in Odessa, Ukraine you need as a Russian a full International Passport. Since at present you can only, fly sometimes take a train via vessel or drive via Ukraine you need an International Passport to come to The Krim. As a Ukraine citizen you can enter Russia on an Internal passport.
There is between Ukraine and Russia talk of visa's. Some how I doubt this will happen any time soon.
But I am not certain what the rules are for entering The Krim.
Perhaps Mark can clarify the situation.
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But I am not certain what the rules are for entering The Krim.
Crimea is considered 'domestic' territory according to the Russian playbooks.
That means: If you book a flight from moscow->simferopol , you will never pass customs/passport-control. Only a security checkpoint scanning your luggage.
Likewise, when I book my total flight from amsterdam-> simferopol, I change terminals @SVO , from international (going through customs) to Domestic.
I can't comment on Ukrainian rules, as I never enter Crimea by car from Ukraine since 2014.
Mark
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Geoffrey Pyatt to leave Ukraine for Greece?
http://uatoday.tv/politics/geoffrey-pyatt-to-leave-ukraine-for-greece-644592.html
-
Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
Trip back on, with a bit of a caveat. Here's the itinerary...
1. Family all meet in Kiev, us from UK, them from RU to meet up with the Kiev branch of the family.
2. Everyone them flies off to Minsk to meet the Belarus branch.
3. We fly back to Kiev, then home.
a. I need a visa for Belarus, looks cheap enough, apart from the crap looking Sov-style official hotels you have to book but is it worth it cos just for me it'll be just to see Minsk? And it's only for three days, the family fun is mostly in Kiev.
b. Babushka doesn't have a 'travelling passport' - we've heard that now you need one to travel to ex-CIS states, anyone know?
Prolly best if I stay in Kiev, never been and always fancied it, never even given Minsk a thought so probably wasted on me.
Belarus is easy mate. Print off the application form online and send it with your passport to the London embassy with a postal order. Nothing else required and I don't think you even need to register if you're in the country less than 4 days or thereabouts.
There's a few cracking hotels in Minsk for about £40 a night...don't be fooled by what you seem to have read but there is a tax on liberal scaremongering.
-
Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
Trip back on, with a bit of a caveat. Here's the itinerary...
1. Family all meet in Kiev, us from UK, them from RU to meet up with the Kiev branch of the family.
2. Everyone them flies off to Minsk to meet the Belarus branch.
3. We fly back to Kiev, then home.
a. I need a visa for Belarus, looks cheap enough, apart from the crap looking Sov-style official hotels you have to book but is it worth it cos just for me it'll be just to see Minsk? And it's only for three days, the family fun is mostly in Kiev.
b. Babushka doesn't have a 'travelling passport' - we've heard that now you need one to travel to ex-CIS states, anyone know?
Prolly best if I stay in Kiev, never been and always fancied it, never even given Minsk a thought so probably wasted on me.
Belarus is easy mate. Print off the application form online and send it with your passport to the London embassy with a postal order. Nothing else required and I don't think you even need to register if you're in the country less than 4 days or thereabouts.
There's a few cracking hotels in Minsk for about £40 a night...don't be fooled by what you seem to have read but there is a tax on liberal scaremongering.
Cheers bud.
Only looked at Real Russia site since I assumed it would be like the Russian visa rip-off I had last year, cost me £600 and prolly £300 in train and bits making nigh on a grand. Never again.
Even Real Russia are quoting £99 for cheapest and you HAVE TO BOOK BELARUS APPROVED HOTEL shit...
I'll check official BL consulate tmrw.....
-
Slightly off topic, we're planning a trip to Kiev this summer, family get together, MIL and FIL from the Urals, me and Nads from Yorkshire, to visit some auntie or great auntie or other, never quite sure what the exact familial relationship is. Hoping to see Nads cousin (or whatever the exact relation is) too, she's just been released from prison for fighting with the Ukranians in the East, and she's Russian too, might be interesting to get some gen. there.
Anyway though, Aunt in Kiev is telling all of us not to come, as it's dangerous especially for Russians in Kiev. I'm not sure I believe that but thought I'd ask if anyone here was ITK.
Trip back on, with a bit of a caveat. Here's the itinerary...
1. Family all meet in Kiev, us from UK, them from RU to meet up with the Kiev branch of the family.
2. Everyone them flies off to Minsk to meet the Belarus branch.
3. We fly back to Kiev, then home.
a. I need a visa for Belarus, looks cheap enough, apart from the crap looking Sov-style official hotels you have to book but is it worth it cos just for me it'll be just to see Minsk? And it's only for three days, the family fun is mostly in Kiev.
b. Babushka doesn't have a 'travelling passport' - we've heard that now you need one to travel to ex-CIS states, anyone know?
Prolly best if I stay in Kiev, never been and always fancied it, never even given Minsk a thought so probably wasted on me.
Belarus is easy mate. Print off the application form online and send it with your passport to the London embassy with a postal order. Nothing else required and I don't think you even need to register if you're in the country less than 4 days or thereabouts.
There's a few cracking hotels in Minsk for about £40 a night...don't be fooled by what you seem to have read but there is a tax on liberal scaremongering.
Cheers bud.
Only looked at Real Russia site since I assumed it would be like the Russian visa rip-off I had last year, cost me £600 and prolly £300 in train and bits making nigh on a grand. Never again.
Even Real Russia are quoting £99 for cheapest and you HAVE TO BOOK BELARUS APPROVED HOTEL shit...
I'll check official BL consulate tmrw.....
It's something like £90 inc postal order Royal Mail rip off and 7 day turn around....you might need to check the insurance bit though. We always had a deal with BY but I understand it's been revoked by the tories or something...
Not been in a wee while but it's not far off the numbers I'm quoting. Any problems, drop me a message!
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^ I work for my own UK based limited company, no one else..
Soon to cease and enjoy my freedom..
What kind of illegal business are you in to have to keep your business a secrete? You travel to shady countries like Ukraine where everyone lies, steals, and has ramped corruption for eleven weeks you must be doing something illegal. There is no legal business in this country and I completely know this because Manny and Steveboy has said so.
I am in a business which makes lots of money for my clients, and enough for my business..
I do not earn a living by taking from the poor...
Well I am looking to make a lot of money. How do you become a client?
-
^ I work for my own UK based limited company, no one else..
Soon to cease and enjoy my freedom..
What kind of illegal business are you in to have to keep your business a secrete? You travel to shady countries like Ukraine where everyone lies, steals, and has ramped corruption for eleven weeks you must be doing something illegal. There is no legal business in this country and I completely know this because Manny and Steveboy has said so.
I am in a business which makes lots of money for my clients, and enough for my business..
I do not earn a living by taking from the poor...
Well I am looking to make a lot of money. How do you become a client?
What is TOC?
-
Ste, I've had an invitation visa from Belarus. I was going to stay in an apartment. It takes about a month for the invite to arrive from BL to your home address
Then you apply in the normal way. The piece of paper you get in your passport when you enter Russia - it's the same.
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Ste, I've had an invitation visa from Belarus. I was going to stay in an apartment. It takes about a month for the invite to arrive from BL to your home address
Then you apply in the normal way. The piece of paper you get in your passport when you enter Russia - it's the same.
You don't need any of this stuff. Click here http://uk.mfa.gov.by/en/consular_issues/visas/
Fill out the application form for a short term visa, send a passport photo (maybe 2), pay by postal order and included pre-paid self addressed special delivery envelopes to get the passport back with visa inserted - to the London embassy.
Read all the small print but for the amount of time Ste plans to visit, he wont even need to register.
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Thanks, Rosco
my info was from 2013
I note the application for a private visa is simplified... no need to have an original stamped copy of the original invite..
''For citizens of European states a simplified visa procedure is provided, which does not require visa support documents confirming the purpose and conditions of travel (letter of invitation), when applying for private visas for the period of less then 30 days. In order to obtain such kind of visa in paragraph 20 of the visa application form you have to write first and last name of the inviting you citizen of Belarus. In paragraph 21 of the visa application form please write the exact address of the registration of the inviting you person in Belarus. In paragraph 23 indicate the purpose of your visit to Belarus (for example, a visit to relatives or friends). Also, you have to attach to your visa application form scanned copies of passport pages containing personal data and registration stamp of the inviting you citizen of Belarus.''
That's good news for anyone thinking of visiting BL
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BBC shrugs off Kiev's demand to say 'Russian aggression' instead of 'civil war'
https://www.rt.com/news/343000-ukraine-bbc-civil-war-aggression/
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More and more it looks like Russia should have gone in and taken eastern Ukraine. It's possible that it might take several more years before life will return to normal.
Even if the Minsk agreement had been a success, the Donbass would not have the support of Ukraine.
Russia is now the only hope for a prosperous future.
Donbass Elections Remain Problematic in Nuland's Moscow Talks
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/donbass-elections-remain-problematic-in-nulands-moscow-talks/569791.html
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More and more it looks like Russia should have gone in and taken eastern Ukraine. It's possible that it might take several more years before life will return to normal.
Even if the Minsk agreement had been a success, the Donbass would not have the support of Ukraine.
Russia is now the only hope for a prosperous future.
Donbass Elections Remain Problematic in Nuland's Moscow Talks
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/donbass-elections-remain-problematic-in-nulands-moscow-talks/569791.html
yep , sort of how the population of crimea is also prospering under russias rule ;D
SX
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yep , sort of how the population of crimea is also prospering under russias rule ;D
SX
They are, had they stayed with Kiev, things would be much, much worse.
But then again, keep believing the propaganda instead of real people who post real stories here on this board.
I know its RT.com , but still a very good view on some major points the western media are missing:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/343599-crimea-tatars-deportation-russia/
If Ukrainian governance was so much better than Russian, why did the Tatar language almost die out under Kiev's watch? In 2013, there were warnings the language was on the verge of extinction. Then it was only taught in 15 schools. Where was the Western outrage, bemoaning this fact at the time? Or did concern for Tatar rights only begin in 2014?
Also, in the 2001 census, 77 percent of people in Crimea said they spoke Russian as a first language. By 2014, that had risen to 84 percent. If the peninsula was genuinely absorbed into Ukraine, how can it be explained that the number of Russian speakers has been increasing? And this in the face of aggressive Kiev policies to force all schools into using Ukrainian as their first language.
Mark.
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They are, had they stayed with Kiev, things would be much, much worse.
Like ? They'd have experienced a huge down turn in tourism, no electricity for a lot of the time ? That happened because of Kremlin help - to forcefully remove UA governance ...
But then again, keep believing the propaganda instead of real people who post real stories here on this board.
Most people on the peninsula - who remain there - are indeed happy to be Russian and endure hardship - that doesn't make how it happened, 'correct' or the stories of hard ship for those with differing opinions any less true. To dismiss them as 'propaganda' is being disingenuous
I know its RT.com , but still a very good view on some major points the western media are missing:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/343599-crimea-tatars-deportation-russia/
If Ukrainian governance was so much better than Russian, why did the Tatar language almost die out under Kiev's watch? In 2013, there were warnings the language was on the verge of extinction. Then it was only taught in 15 schools. Where was the Western outrage, bemoaning this fact at the time? Or did concern for Tatar rights only begin in 2014?
Also, in the 2001 census, 77 percent of people in Crimea said they spoke Russian as a first language. By 2014, that had risen to 84 percent. If the peninsula was genuinely absorbed into Ukraine, how can it be explained that the number of Russian speakers has been increasing? And this in the face of aggressive Kiev policies to force all schools into using Ukrainian as their first language.
Fact - the Tatars would overall prefer UA rule... Moscow enforced Russian as the first language - even banning Ukrainian on several occasions - under Imperial and Soviet edicts ...
Ukraine on achieving independence - in '91 - set about creating a Ukrainian identity.
I know many Russian speakers who initially found this repulsive, or awkward and then embraced it. It is a good or bad thing - depending on one's outlook.
Kids in Ireland learn Irish and do Irish history, Kids in N.Ireland do the same - if they go to Roman Catholic schools - I was talk British history - the polarisation starts with kids .... UA has had 25 years to create a 'brand'.. a 'new connection' ..
Moscow is now seen as a long term occupier and and barrier to UA culture and Russians see this as 'nonsense' - treating Ukrainian nationalism and the language as a joke.
Tatars have had the shitty end of the stick for decades and no-one did much to undo the wrong the Supreme Soviet acknowledged...
BUT...Tatar leaders were not exiled by Kiev..
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Russia was entirely right to not intervene in Donbass. The support for joining the RF was nowhere near as strong of cohesive as in Crime a where, in practical terms, the choice and support was unanimous and from the top of society to the bottom.
Without that unanimity the Russian Federation would have appeared to be an occupying power. The folks of eastern Ukraine had to demonstrate their viability as a part of the RF.
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Russia was entirely right to not intervene in Donbass.
That would be 'funny' if the consequences of such non intervention by Russian GRU troops acting collectively - when on vacation, of course - to open up the armouries and the President of Russia referring to the 'people of 'novorossiya' weren't conspiring to make your 'assertion' ... seem ... silly ..
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They are, had they stayed with Kiev, things would be much, much worse.
Like ? They'd have experienced a huge down turn in tourism, no electricity for a lot of the time ? That happened because of Kremlin help - to forcefully remove UA governance ...
They would still have a huge tourism-problem, because then the Russians wouldn't be able to visit Crimea, Ukraine forbids it.
The wages would suffer extra-bad, overall speaking Crimeans are much better off money-wise than if they'd have stuck with Ukraine.
The Tatars would still not be able to speak their own language in their own schools and during government business.
The infrastructure would have seen 0 investment, instead now there are better roads everywhere.
The only positive point I see, is that I wouldn't need a Russian visa to visit.
But then again, keep believing the propaganda instead of real people who post real stories here on this board.
Most people on the peninsula - who remain there - are indeed happy to be Russian and endure hardship - that doesn't make how it happened, 'correct' or the stories of hard ship for those with differing opinions any less true. To dismiss them as 'propaganda' is being disingenuous
No its not, the people there are genuinly happy and better off, they 'endure' Russian hardship because it was much, much worse under Ukrainian rule. To them, they have landed in Paradise. Facilities gets upgraded, infrastructure an overhaul, they get to speak their own language (tatars) and overall the amount of red-tape has diminished. The corruption has also gone down significantly. I can go on and on and on, but its definatly western propaganda only that Crimea is worse off, so no i am not being disingeneous (Spelling?).
You should visit sometime, it has become a much nicer island since 2014.
Fact - the Tatars would overall prefer UA rule... Moscow enforced Russian as the first language - even banning Ukrainian on several occasions - under Imperial and Soviet edicts ...
FACT: IT may have been that way in 2014, but it is certainly not true today. Tatars have embraced the Russians and let bygones be bygones.
Ukraine on achieving independence - in '91 - set about creating a Ukrainian identity.
Thats when many woke up with a shock, we're stuck in the wrong country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many didn't even know they belonged to Ukraine until this day.
I know many Russian speakers who initially found this repulsive, or awkward and then embraced it. It is a good or bad thing - depending on one's outlook.
I know only Russians in Crimea who found this repulsive and are glad to be 'back home'.
Kids in Ireland learn Irish and do Irish history, Kids in N.Ireland do the same - if they go to Roman Catholic schools - I was talk British history - the polarisation starts with kids .... UA has had 25 years to create a 'brand'.. a 'new connection' ..
And UA failed miserably. The kids are every bit as russian as their ancestors. My wife being a prime example, born from a Ukrainian dad and Russian mom, she identified as Russian from day 1.
Moscow is now seen as a long term occupier and and barrier to UA culture and Russians see this as 'nonsense' - treating Ukrainian nationalism and the language as a joke.
Ukr language was always a joke to Russians. ever since I got serious with Lena that subject came up often when we went to kiev. I mustn't be ashamed of the kiddy-russian there, they will someday find proper language. However it was always in good spirits banter. It is only kiev that made this a crown-offense. Same as Brits and Americans. Guess what English I prefer.
Tatars have had the shitty end of the stick for decades and no-one did much to undo the wrong the Supreme Soviet acknowledged...
BUT...Tatar leaders were not exiled by Kiev..
No, they weren't. They were exiled by the Crimean population. Stalin had to 'haul ass' to get most of them out alive.
Stalin may have been a very bad man, with deplorable tactics, but he did do some things that had no winners. Leaving Tatars in Crimea wasn't an option, they'd have been lynched before the week was out.
Ever since I went to Crimea, back in 2010, Tatars aren't popular with the local Crimeans. I asked around back then and even then I got above answer. The Crimeans haven't still forgiven the Tatars for their actions in world-war 2.
They are tolerated at best, always have been as long as I can remember.
Why now, does the west suddenly care about them? To demonize Russia, thats the only reason. Whilst it isn't the Russians at fault here, its the local population on Crimea that still holds the biggest Grudge.
Mark.
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Russia was entirely right to not intervene in Donbass.
That would be 'funny' if the consequences of such non intervention by Russian GRU troops acting collectively - when on vacation, of course - to open up the armouries and the President of Russia referring to the 'people of 'novorossiya' weren't conspiring to make your 'assertion' ... seem ... silly ..
Of course you have seen this with your own eyes??
OR did you read about it in some obscure newspaper or un-biased tv channel..??
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They are, had they stayed with Kiev, things would be much, much worse.
Like ? They'd have experienced a huge down turn in tourism, no electricity for a lot of the time ? That happened because of Kremlin help - to forcefully remove UA governance ...
But then again, keep believing the propaganda instead of real people who post real stories here on this board.
Most people on the peninsula - who remain there - are indeed happy to be Russian and endure hardship - that doesn't make how it happened, 'correct' or the stories of hard ship for those with differing opinions any less true. To dismiss them as 'propaganda' is being disingenuous
I know its RT.com , but still a very good view on some major points the western media are missing:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/343599-crimea-tatars-deportation-russia/
If Ukrainian governance was so much better than Russian, why did the Tatar language almost die out under Kiev's watch? In 2013, there were warnings the language was on the verge of extinction. Then it was only taught in 15 schools. Where was the Western outrage, bemoaning this fact at the time? Or did concern for Tatar rights only begin in 2014?
Also, in the 2001 census, 77 percent of people in Crimea said they spoke Russian as a first language. By 2014, that had risen to 84 percent. If the peninsula was genuinely absorbed into Ukraine, how can it be explained that the number of Russian speakers has been increasing? And this in the face of aggressive Kiev policies to force all schools into using Ukrainian as their first language.
Fact - the Tatars would overall prefer UA rule... Moscow enforced Russian as the first language - even banning Ukrainian on several occasions - under Imperial and Soviet edicts ...
Ukraine on achieving independence - in '91 - set about creating a Ukrainian identity.
I know many Russian speakers who initially found this repulsive, or awkward and then embraced it. It is a good or bad thing - depending on one's outlook.
Kids in Ireland learn Irish and do Irish history, Kids in N.Ireland do the same - if they go to Roman Catholic schools - I was talk British history - the polarisation starts with kids .... UA has had 25 years to create a 'brand'.. a 'new connection' ..
Moscow is now seen as a long term occupier and and barrier to UA culture and Russians see this as 'nonsense' - treating Ukrainian nationalism and the language as a joke.
Tatars have had the shitty end of the stick for decades and no-one did much to undo the wrong the Supreme Soviet acknowledged..
Pure unadulterated leg humping..
BUT...Tatar leaders were not exiled by Kiev..
Fact.. The so called Tatar leaders which you are referring to were not the elected leaders, they were the bosses of the Tatar mafia, they took control by being very dangerous people and frightened the shit out of the majority of honest Tatars.
They were liked by Kiev because they kept the Tatar populace under control be their methods.
The major Tatar populace in Crimea are glad to see the back of them, but still remain fearful due to being ostracised by some of these bosses underlings still on the peninsular..
This information is from a well respected Crimean Tatar who claims to have grown up with these so called "Leaders" and knows them well, and his version is more believable than yours IMHO...
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Irrespectively, despite the local populace being Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar or whatever, and identifying as such, or it being historically such and such, Russia shouldn't have just marched in and stole it?
What if Poland and Germany matched into Kaliningrad and took that back?
What if Argentina did the same in the Falklands?
Basically there are proper international channels for this - not just saying the locals like us, we're in. USA does it too, of course in the name of liberation, but Iraq isn't part of Kansas yet....
So, irrespective of local tensions/feelings, has Russia done really done the right/honourable/legal thing by acting as she did WRT Crimea?
You have to say 'No'....
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You have to say 'No'....
Kosovo set a precedent, you reap what you sow.
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You have to say 'No'....
Kosovo set a precedent, you reap what you sow.
Doesn't make it right though does it?
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You have to say 'No'....
Kosovo set a precedent, you reap what you sow.
Doesn't make it right though does it?
No it does not.
In defence of Crimea, the indigenous populace have several time requested to return the land to Russia, but Ukraine AND Russia would not allow this to happen at those times.
Was America right with its expansionist policies to move westwards, and displace all the indigenous Indians, put them on reservations, form "Iron curtains" around them, starve them and bring in their diseases to kill them off.
Unfortunately our world is not the best place, but its the only place that we have, so we have to like it and lump it
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In defence of Crimea, the indigenous populace have several time requested to return the land to Russia, but Ukraine AND Russia would not allow this to happen at those times.
I said that on that BBC radio debate I did the other day and some Ukrainian bird was arguing with me that black was white it was untrue. :Zzzzsleep:
Naturally, the BBC presenter stepped in and told her what I was telling her was factual. Oh wait, that last bit didn't happen. :chuckle:
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In defence of Crimea, the indigenous populace have several time requested to return the land to Russia, but Ukraine AND Russia would not allow this to happen at those times.
I said that on that BBC radio debate I did the other day and some Ukrainian bird was arguing with me that black was white it was untrue. :Zzzzsleep:
Naturally, the BBC presenter stepped in and told her what I was telling her was factual. Oh wait, that last bit didn't happen. :chuckle:
Is it online to listen to me ol cocker'?
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I said that on that BBC radio debate I did the other day and some Ukrainian bird was arguing with me that black was white it was untrue. :Zzzzsleep:
Naturally, the BBC presenter stepped in and told her what I was telling her was factual. Oh wait, that last bit didn't happen. :chuckle:
Perhaps you can tell us which show and we can listen to this on iplayer ?
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You have to say 'No'....
Kosovo set a precedent, you reap what you sow.
Doesn't make it right though does it?
No it does not.
In defence of Crimea, the indigenous populace have several time requested to return the land to Russia, but Ukraine AND Russia would not allow this to happen at those times.
Was America right with its expansionist policies to move westwards, and displace all the indigenous Indians, put them on reservations, form "Iron curtains" around them, starve them and bring in their diseases to kill them off.
Unfortunately our world is not the best place, but its the only place that we have, so we have to like it and lump it
Can't argue with any of that, but normally land-grabs are ochestrated by tin-pot nations doing tit-for-tat border changes.
Russia is not a tin-pot nation, and neither is Ukraine, this just doesn't fit the rhetoric, it's not something a major power would or should do, there are channels for disputes of this nature, like them or not.
I still say Russia was wrong to do this in the way they do, and I do probably agree with the concensus that most people in Crim wanted it, doesn't change the facts.
The Russian perspective on the Chechen wish for independence doesn't colloreate with the Russian narrative on Crimea you have to agree?
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What Chechnyan wish for independence?
Are you thinking of the externally organised and funded wahabist terrorists back in the 90's whose depredations continue within the Russian Federation to this day, albeit at a much lower level since the Russian army and Chechnyan people dealt with the threat?
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They would still have a huge tourism-problem, because then the Russians wouldn't be able to visit Crimea, Ukraine forbids it.
The wages would suffer extra-bad, overall speaking Crimeans are much better off money-wise than if they'd have stuck with Ukraine.
The Tatars would still not be able to speak their own language in their own schools and during government business.
The infrastructure would have seen 0 investment, instead now there are better roads everywhere.
The only positive point I see, is that I wouldn't need a Russian visa to visit.
Markje
This thread is the view from the Ukrainian side - I'm certain you speak for a small minority.
But let's deal with reality
1/ Wages and Pensions went up - so did house prices, but then inflation kicked in and house prices fell back - then we had ' it's a price we're prepared to pay'
2/ Tourism is down - the reasons - are 'excuses' - they wouldn't BE down if the military occupation followed by 'referendum' hadn't occurred....but ' it's a price we're prepared to pay'
Most people on the peninsula - who remain there - are indeed happy to be Russian and endure hardship - that doesn't make how it happened, 'correct' or the stories of hard ship for those with differing opinions any less true. To dismiss them as 'propaganda' is being disingenuous
No its not, the people there are genuinly happy and better off, they 'endure' Russian hardship because it was much, much worse under Ukrainian rule.
Oh, dear the Crimean brewer I was talking to to at the Sochi Beer festival must be the exception I was quoting him ...
You should visit sometime, it has become a much nicer island since 2014.
Watch this space..I would have been by now, but a guy fell overboard on the last trip and the Yachtie community is expecting draconian new laws as a result
Fact - the Tatars would overall prefer UA rule... Moscow enforced Russian as the first language - even banning Ukrainian on several occasions - under Imperial and Soviet edicts ...
FACT: IT may have been that way in 2014, but it is certainly not true today. Tatars have embraced the Russians and let bygones be bygones.
Now you are being disingenuous - again ...I just watched Rossiya spinning on this issue - showing 10 Tatars - hardly a ringing endorsement.. esp. while the leaders are banned from THEIR homeland for five years...
Ukraine on achieving independence - in '91 - set about creating a Ukrainian identity.
Thats when many woke up with a shock, we're stuck in the wrong country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many didn't even know they belonged to Ukraine until this day.
No... another mistake on your part - check the successive polls throughout the noughties and the words of the RUSSIAN representative on the peninsula in 2011 - regarding 'criminal separatists' - this is a fact and floors honest folk who suggest re-joining with Russia was always on the agenda
I know many Russian speakers who initially found this repulsive, or awkward and then embraced it. It is a good or bad thing - depending on one's outlook.
I know only Russians in Crimea who found this repulsive and are glad to be 'back home'.
You took this out of context.. I referred to the whole of Ukraine
Kids in Ireland learn Irish and do Irish history, Kids in N.Ireland do the same - if they go to Roman Catholic schools - I was taught British history - the polarisation starts with kids .... UA has had 25 years to create a 'brand'.. a 'new connection' ..
And UA failed miserably. The kids are every bit as russian as their ancestors. My wife being a prime example, born from a Ukrainian dad and Russian mom, she identified as Russian from day1
The thing is they didn't ... Crimea was an exception ..The election results following your alleged illegal removal of Yanu' - who ran with Russian help - demonstrates that most of Ukraine were happy. The Kremlin were desperate to label a spectrum of political viewpoints as 'fascists' - which history proved was a fib...not helped by some Ukrainian dick heads calling for Russian to be banned .
Moscow is now seen as a long term occupier and and barrier to UA culture and Russians see this as 'nonsense' - treating Ukrainian nationalism and the language as a joke.
Ukr language was always a joke to Russians. ever since I got serious with Lena that subject came up often when we went to kiev. I mustn't be ashamed of the kiddy-russian there, they will someday find proper language. However it was always in good spirits banter. It is only kiev that made this a crown-offense. Same as Brits and Americans. Guess what English I prefer.
See what I mean ? I lived with too many Russians to have missed this 'bollox' attitude. Ukrainian is FAR closer to other slavic languages than Russian - which evolved in a different path - possibly due to occupation from the east. It's condescending and ignorance on the part of your ' educator' ..luckily, mine was a Russian Professor of language methodology
Tatars have had the shitty end of the stick for decades and no-one did much to undo the wrong the Supreme Soviet acknowledged...
BUT...Tatar leaders were not exiled by Kiev..
No, they weren't. They were exiled by the Crimean population. Stalin had to 'haul ass' to get most of them out alive.
Suggest one of us needs to read up on Soviet history and apologies by the supreme soviet
Stalin may have been a very bad man, with deplorable tactics, but he did do some things that had no winners. Leaving Tatars in Crimea wasn't an option, they'd have been lynched before the week was out.
According to who ? The planted eth.Russian population looking for an excuse to nick more Tatar land ? Again you assertion is not backed up by the supreme soviet.
Ever since I went to Crimea, back in 2010, Tatars aren't popular with the local Crimeans. I asked around back then and even then I got above answer. The Crimeans haven't still forgiven the Tatars for their actions in world-war 2.
You keep forgetting I've been there - twice - in 2004 and 2005 - i;ve stayed with eth.Russian, and Ukr- Tatar friends - It seems I have seen both sides and you - not
They are tolerated at best, always have been as long as I can remember.
Why now, does the west suddenly care about them? To demonize Russia, thats the only reason. Whilst it isn't the Russians at fault here, its the local population on Crimea that still holds the biggest Grudge.
Mark.
I readily concede that they are now a focal point and banning Tatar leaders was hardly wise. You conveniently forget this was their homeland before Russians and Putin needs to deliver on his promises to them - you suggest he is... They suggest otherwise
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In defence of Crimea, the indigenous populace have several time requested to return the land to Russia, but Ukraine AND Russia would not allow this to happen at those times.
I said that on that BBC radio debate I did the other day and some Ukrainian bird was arguing with me that black was white it was untrue. :Zzzzsleep:
Naturally, the BBC presenter stepped in and told her what I was telling her was factual. Oh wait, that last bit didn't happen. :chuckle:
If my memory serves me correct, one such occasion was 1991, The people of Crimes declared the country to be an autonomous republic, and asked Kiev for a referendum on re-joining Russia, Kiev refused, but allowed the declaration of autonomous republic to stand instead, the referendum was never allowed to take place.
Sevastopol I think was allowed to have its own administration outside of the republic.
Thereafter, Ukraine took all tax receipts from the country and only returned a small percentage into the republics budget, they also withheld all rental monies for the Russian naval/air force/military bases, giving nothing back.
Again, if my memory serves me correctly, Kiev also refused many of Crimea's applications for infrastructure renewals/improvements.
It was a case of all take and little give, no wonder the Crimean populace wished to become part of Russia again.
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What Chechnyan wish for independence?
Are you thinking of the externally organised and funded wahabist terrorists back in the 90's whose depredations continue within the Russian Federation to this day, albeit at a much lower level since the Russian army and Chechnyan people dealt with the threat?
Thinking more about the Chechen declaration of independance c1917 and subsequent Soviet occupation.
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What Chechnyan wish for independence?
Are you thinking of the externally organised and funded wahabist terrorists back in the 90's whose depredations continue within the Russian Federation to this day, albeit at a much lower level since the Russian army and Chechnyan people dealt with the threat?
Thinking more about the Chechen declaration of independance c1917 and subsequent Soviet occupation.
Ah, so not the expulsion from the garden of Eden then? A more recent and more convenient cut off point.
It seems a tad daft to go round invoking historic references to states no longer extant. Surely more useful to consider relevant cases, yes?
I remember this bully of a teacher when I was at school. Let's use him as a justification for the closure of the school today!
But no. The teacher died decades ago. The current school bears no connection with the school I attended, apart from the name. See what I mean?
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What Chechnyan wish for independence?
Are you thinking of the externally organised and funded wahabist terrorists back in the 90's whose depredations continue within the Russian Federation to this day, albeit at a much lower level since the Russian army and Chechnyan people dealt with the threat?
Thinking more about the Chechen declaration of independance c1917 and subsequent Soviet occupation.
Ah, so not the expulsion from the garden of Eden then? A more recent and more convenient cut off point.
It seems a tad daft to go round invoking historic references to states no longer extant. Surely more useful to consider relevant cases, yes?
I remember this bully of a teacher when I was at school. Let's use him as a justification for the closure of the school today!
But no. The teacher died decades ago. The current school bears no connection with the school I attended, apart from the name. See what I mean?
Same can be said re Krim?
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In defence of Crimea, the indigenous populace have several time requested to return the land to Russia, but Ukraine AND Russia would not allow this to happen at those times.
I said that on that BBC radio debate I did the other day and some Ukrainian bird was arguing with me that black was white it was untrue. :Zzzzsleep:
Naturally, the BBC presenter stepped in and told her what I was telling her was factual. Oh wait, that last bit didn't happen. :chuckle:
Is it online to listen to me ol cocker'?
I said that on that BBC radio debate I did the other day and some Ukrainian bird was arguing with me that black was white it was untrue. :Zzzzsleep:
Naturally, the BBC presenter stepped in and told her what I was telling her was factual. Oh wait, that last bit didn't happen. :chuckle:
Perhaps you can tell us which show and we can listen to this on iplayer ?
It must be said, I hardly got a word in edgeways and you are looking about 30 mins in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03stqd4
I also got the call 20 mins before air, with no advance notice who the other guests were. But at least I can say now I have been on the BBC World Service. :chuckle:
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Same can be said re Krim?
According to most Crimeans, it became Ukrainian only in 1991, when the state Ukraine was made :coffeeread:
I am was at that time starting my interest in Russia and its History, way before ever considered dating there.
I learned the cyrillic script and read about their history. Crimea as part of places I wanted to visit as nature there is breathtaking.
Mark.
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This thread is the view from the Ukrainian side - I'm certain you speak for a small minority.
But let's deal with reality
Oh so I counter your bullsh$t and suddenly you wish to stay on-topic? Thats not fair.
1/ Wages and Pensions went up - so did house prices, but then inflation kicked in and house prices fell back - then we had ' it's a price we're prepared to pay'
You missed the point entirely, if they'd had stuck with Ukraine, the wages/pensions would not have been 'up' in the first place and inflation would have hit even harder. And despite your best efforts, most Crimeans are not stupid and still see Ukraine failing more badly than Russia and say "thank god we escaped that junk just in time"
2/ Tourism is down - the reasons - are 'excuses' - they wouldn't BE down if the military occupation followed by 'referendum' hadn't occurred....but ' it's a price we're prepared to pay'
Again you missed the point. Tourism would also been down if they had not been annexed, because Ukraine doesn't want Russians to visit Crimea anymore. Read up the other threads experiences on that.
Most people on the peninsula - who remain there - are indeed happy to be Russian and endure hardship - that doesn't make how it happened, 'correct' or the stories of hard ship for those with differing opinions any less true. To dismiss them as 'propaganda' is being disingenuous
No its not, the people there are genuinly happy and better off, they 'endure' Russian hardship because it was much, much worse under Ukrainian rule.
I have nothing to add here, see above.
Oh, dear the Crimean brewer I was talking to to at the Sochi Beer festival must be the exception I was quoting him ...
Riiiiight, you just met the oddball that doesn't believe in the status-quo again. Just like always , you do not live in Crimea, have not been in regular contact in Crimea, of course the beer-brewer could have been sarcastic , or -more likely- he simply didn't trust you enough to tell the real truth. Tatar mistreatment is a hot-topic in the western press and he thought it would be safer to parrot the wests party line to a westerener. Commercial folk are very suspicious and careful with their opinions. Something about their bread and income.
You should visit sometime, it has become a much nicer island since 2014.
Fact - the Tatars would overall prefer UA rule... Moscow enforced Russian as the first language - even banning Ukrainian on several occasions - under Imperial and Soviet edicts ...
FACT: IT may have been that way in 2014, but it is certainly not true today. Tatars have embraced the Russians and let bygones be bygones.
Added: Please don't misquote me again, i did not say the first fact, you did yourself.
Now you are being disingenuous - again ...I just watched Rossiya spinning on this issue - showing 10 Tatars - hardly a ringing endorsement.. esp. while the leaders are banned from THEIR homeland for five years...
Their leaders aren't banned at all, where do you get this crap. Their ex-leaders / terrorist organisation are banned, but the Crimean tatars said they don't represent the Crimean tatars, so nobody need listen to them
Ukraine on achieving independence - in '91 - set about creating a Ukrainian identity.
Thats when many woke up with a shock, we're stuck in the wrong country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many didn't even know they belonged to Ukraine until this day.
No... another mistake on your part - check the successive polls throughout the noughties and the words of the RUSSIAN representative on the peninsula in 2011 - regarding 'criminal separatists' - this is a fact and floors honest folk who suggest re-joining with Russia was always on the agenda
Are you suggesting here that honest normal people's vote majority doesn't count but the leaders does? You would fit in well, in the European style sheeple.
I know many Russian speakers who initially found this repulsive, or awkward and then embraced it. It is a good or bad thing - depending on one's outlook.
I know only Russians in Crimea who found this repulsive and are glad to be 'back home'.
You took this out of context.. I referred to the whole of Ukraine
Ah right..... changing the goalposts are we?
Many Ukrainian Russian speakers are probably not happy Crimea moved to Russia. As they'd love to visit and are now unable to do so.
Kids in Ireland learn Irish and do Irish history, Kids in N.Ireland do the same - if they go to Roman Catholic schools - I was taught British history - the polarisation starts with kids .... UA has had 25 years to create a 'brand'.. a 'new connection' ..
And UA failed miserably. The kids are every bit as russian as their ancestors. My wife being a prime example, born from a Ukrainian dad and Russian mom, she identified as Russian from day1
The thing is they didn't ... Crimea was an exception ..The election results following your alleged illegal removal of Yanu' - who ran with Russian help - demonstrates that most of Ukraine were happy. The Kremlin were desperate to label a spectrum of political viewpoints as 'fascists' - which history proved was a fib...not helped by some Ukrainian dick heads calling for Russian to be banned .
Ukrainians banned the Russian language, tried to ban its culture and everything else of Mother Russia. That set a lot of bad blood which the end-result is the breakaway of Crimea and the war in Donbass. Don't think for a second I am wrong here.
Moscow is now seen as a long term occupier and and barrier to UA culture and Russians see this as 'nonsense' - treating Ukrainian nationalism and the language as a joke.
Ukr language was always a joke to Russians. ever since I got serious with Lena that subject came up often when we went to kiev. I mustn't be ashamed of the kiddy-russian there, they will someday find proper language. However it was always in good spirits banter. It is only kiev that made this a crown-offense. Same as Brits and Americans. Guess what English I prefer.
See what I mean ? I lived with too many Russians to have missed this 'bollox' attitude. Ukrainian is FAR closer to other slavic languages than Russian - which evolved in a different path - possibly due to occupation from the east. It's condescending and ignorance on the part of your ' educator' ..luckily, mine was a Russian Professor of language methodology
And again you missed the point entirely, this time however: I am not pointing it out to you. Think Dutch/Flemish and you are on the right track.
Tatars have had the shitty end of the stick for decades and no-one did much to undo the wrong the Supreme Soviet acknowledged...
BUT...Tatar leaders were not exiled by Kiev..
No, they weren't. They were exiled by the Crimean population. Stalin had to 'haul ass' to get most of them out alive.
Suggest one of us needs to read up on Soviet history and apologies by the supreme soviet
I consider this one of the best inside-jokes of the Russian state. Apologising for not condoning a mass-extinction event of Crimean tatars , pushed on by the -would be- extincters terrorist leadership... :king:
Common Tatar Crimeans who are older and lived through it all, said the relocation was bad but necessary. It would not have been done any other way.
Stalin may have been a very bad man, with deplorable tactics, but he did do some things that had no winners. Leaving Tatars in Crimea wasn't an option, they'd have been lynched before the week was out.
According to who ? The planted eth.Russian population looking for an excuse to nick more Tatar land ? Again you assertion is not backed up by the supreme soviet.
My grandmother in law, my mother in law and her sister, almost everyone I talked to who is 70+ in Crimea. The Crimean tatars Burned/raped/pillaged/etc. and did so many bad things under Nazi-rule because the Nazi's let them, it was no surprise that the common people wantted them all lynched when proper order was restored.
Ever since I went to Crimea, back in 2010, Tatars aren't popular with the local Crimeans. I asked around back then and even then I got above answer. The Crimeans haven't still forgiven the Tatars for their actions in world-war 2.
You keep forgetting I've been there - twice - in 2004 and 2005 - i;ve stayed with eth.Russian, and Ukr- Tatar friends - It seems I have seen both sides and you - not
Markje: Visits every year and skypes with inlaws often (several times a week) From before and after the voulentary takeover by Russia
Moby: Visitted 2ce, more than 10 years ago.
Yes, i can see how your experience trumps mine. Sorry.
They are tolerated at best, always have been as long as I can remember.
Why now, does the west suddenly care about them? To demonize Russia, thats the only reason. Whilst it isn't the Russians at fault here, its the local population on Crimea that still holds the biggest Grudge.
Mark.
I readily concede that they are now a focal point and banning Tatar leaders was hardly wise. You conveniently forget this was their homeland before Russians and Putin needs to deliver on his promises to them - you suggest he is... They suggest otherwise
Wow, you give me 1 whole point on a long and proven-fact article. I am impressed, I must be doing better.
But then you totally misunderstood the point yet again. Either you can't read, or you twist and turn at every paragraph.
The so-called "tatar leaders" were doing everything AGAINST the best interest of the Tatars, and in the end the Tatars chose new leadership and denounced the mejilis.
As to it being their homeland before Stalin moved them, Thats only considering how far back in time you wish to go! The tatars were the invaders before that and Catherine the Great put the Russians there sometime.
Mark.
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Poroshenko vows ‘to bring back’ E.Ukraine, Crimea after Putin pardons Ukrainian pilot Savchenko
https://www.rt.com/news/344375-poroshenko-savchenko-crimea-ukraine/
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Other than the fact that Russia did not have official military in Ukraine, maybe there were just too many Ukrainians fighting each other that Russians went unnoticed.
Inconvenient Fact: 78% of Donbass Fighters in 2014 Were Ukrainian Citizens
http://russia-insider.com/en/inconvenient-fact-78-donbass-rebels-2014-were-ukrainian-citizens/ri14610
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What I find odd, is that part of the conditions set for Ukraine to have visa free travel, and receive aid was to get corruption under control.
Seems little is getting accomplished.
Mikheil Saakashvili: 'Ukraine's government has no vision for reform'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/mikheil-saakashvili-ukraine-government-has-no-vision-for-reform-odessa
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Other than the fact that Russia did not have official military in Ukraine, maybe there were just too many Ukrainians fighting each other that Russians went unnoticed.
Inconvenient Fact: 78% of Donbass Fighters in 2014 Were Ukrainian Citizens
http://russia-insider.com/en/inconvenient-fact-78-donbass-rebels-2014-were-ukrainian-citizens/ri14610
It is only inconvenient for Donbass as they are the only ones at the front and most if not all of those dying.
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Freed by Russia, Ukraine's 'Joan of Arc' may be thorn in own leaders' side
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YI1U5
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This is kind of a high risk job for a 26 year old woman.
How a 26-year-old Ukrainian took on Odessa's customs service
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YI0L2
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What I find odd, is that part of the conditions set for Ukraine to have visa free travel, and receive aid was to get corruption under control.
Seems little is getting accomplished.
Mikheil Saakashvili: 'Ukraine's government has no vision for reform'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/mikheil-saakashvili-ukraine-government-has-no-vision-for-reform-odessa
Gosh, you quoted from the Guardian- if YOU do that I guess it's OK :chuckle:
Go, on, Manny - delete this post - prove my point about the true 'phobia' on here being a fear of 'awkward' facts
So, TC - you being an 'expert' on things Russia / Ukraine..
What do you think of the Guardian article ?
Is Saakashvili trying to out corruption from any source - or making a name for himself ?
The Panama Papers were dissed by much of the 'Kremlin' press - but Poroshenko was named as - possible - benefiting.
Makes one wonder if that media needs to 'question more'..
Indeed, any nation needs a press that can embarrass leaders who make more money from their public office than the salary they take - during office.
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This is kind of a high risk job for a 26 year old woman.
How a 26-year-old Ukrainian took on Odessa's customs service
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YI0L2
A Saakashvili protege who was not really qualified for this job but did a very good job. She is being railroaded out the same as the other reformers. She is also a babe somewhat.
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Did he get this protégé pregnant as well?
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Did he get this protégé pregnant as well?
Do you reputable sources for this accusation?
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Did he get this protégé pregnant as well?
Do you reputable sources for this accusation?
Cannot say about the incumbent, but here's the story about one of them..
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/01/pregnant-maria-gaidar-dismissed-from.html
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AvHdB, one day you will remember that when I post something, unless signposted otherwise, it is not fantasy.
You could learn something from me in this regard. :'(
Thanks Gipsy!
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Five Ukrainian soldiers killed in separatist attacks
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YK0CJ
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What I find odd, is that part of the conditions set for Ukraine to have visa free travel, and receive aid was to get corruption under control.
Seems little is getting accomplished.
Mikheil Saakashvili: 'Ukraine's government has no vision for reform'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/mikheil-saakashvili-ukraine-government-has-no-vision-for-reform-odessa
Gosh, you quoted from the Guardian- if YOU do that I guess it's OK :chuckle:
Go, on, Manny - delete this post - prove my point about the true 'phobia' on here being a fear of 'awkward' facts
So, TC - you being an 'expert' on things Russia / Ukraine..
What do you think of the Guardian article ?
Is Saakashvili trying to out corruption from any source - or making a name for himself ?
The Panama Papers were dissed by much of the 'Kremlin' press - but Poroshenko was named as - possible - benefiting.
Makes one wonder if that media needs to 'question more'..
Indeed, any nation needs a press that can embarrass leaders who make more money from their public office than the salary they take - during office.
Moby,
I don't have an ego problem with the need to give opinions about every article link I post.
You on the other hand seem to be in need of constant attention.
I try to post articles that relate to subjects at hand other comment as they want.
I do find good humour in how you seem to think I am biased towards Russia, while Wiz has accused me of being a western leaning troll. :chuckle: so I guess I must be somewhere in the middle.
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this gives a better background on gaidar
she certanly is no saint , and quite clearly has her own seemingly to others confused agenda :)
Maria Gaidar: Splendors and Miseries of a Gorgeous Anti-Putin Oppositionist
Russian enchantress who defected to Ukraine has mysterious and checkered past
http://observer.com/2015/10/international-observer/
SX
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Did he get this protégé pregnant as well?
Do you reputable sources for this accusation?
Cannot say about the incumbent, but here's the story about one of them..
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/01/pregnant-maria-gaidar-dismissed-from.html
So Andrew honestly I do not give two hoots about your fantasies, but you continue with smoke and mirrors.
??? But lets look at the woman in question; a married woman (also owner of real estate in Moscow) with a successful husband gets her kicks sleeping and getting knocked up by Saaki. Please, it sounds like some one has permanent hyperemesis-gravidarum.
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Did he get this protégé pregnant as well?
Do you reputable sources for this accusation?
Cannot say about the incumbent, but here's the story about one of them..
http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/01/pregnant-maria-gaidar-dismissed-from.html
So Andrew honestly I do not give two hoots about your fantasies, but you continue with smoke and mirrors.
??? But lets look at the woman in question; a married woman (also owner of real estate in Moscow) with a successful husband gets her kicks sleeping and getting knocked up by Saaki. Please, it sounds like some one has permanent hyperemesis-gravidarum.
It could be true but so far only rumors and accusations. Not sure it even really matters. Also not really sure where Gaidar's loyalties really lie.
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AvHdB, please read what I write rather than responding to words that you imagine I write.
You and I can not know who knocked the woman up. Her hubby at this time seems to have chosen to accept the kid.
However, as I noted, as usual my post was not fantasy based. You can choose to disbelieve the source and story. That's your choice. I on the other hand know that we do not have sufficient information to make a judgement.
If you are going to try to have a go at each comment I make then all I would ask is that you keep your silliness to yourself. Once again you know that, as usual, the stuff I write, even the one line comments are based upon knowledge, reading and understanding. If you wish to troll people you'd be better off doing so in respect of others more like yourself - the uninformed and unthinking.
Now, trot off like a good lad and enjoy another swill of something red, room temperature and moderately alcoholic. Stick with what you know. :)
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Did he get this protégé pregnant as well?
This is what you wrote. It speaks to knowledge of the personal situation. As well as a judgement of his ethics.
If this is a challenge I would suggest sticking to your crayons. (But as a heads up the kindergarden teachers do not like it when you scribble on the walls.)
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Ukraine Now Wants Russia to Resume Gas Deliveries
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-now-wants-russia-resume-gas-deliveries/ri14886
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Avhdb, don't be a silly little boy. I made no comments about anyone's ethics, but if you REALLY think that the bloke is anything other than a sack of shit then perhaps a long look in the mirror is in order.
I asked a question based upon reports about the case. Not even you in your cups would honestly not notice the question mark.
What is the matter with you, there was a time when apart from the odd bit of silliness you were clearly able to think and comment honestly. Now the silliness has closed around you like a dark cloud. The once sensible bloke is almost lost to us all.
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Avhdb, don't be a silly little boy. I made no comments about anyone's ethics, but if you REALLY think that the bloke is anything other than a sack of shit then perhaps a long look in the mirror is in order.
I asked a question based upon reports about the case. Not even you in your cups would honestly not notice the question mark.
What is the matter with you, there was a time when apart from the odd bit of silliness you were clearly able to think and comment honestly. Now the silliness has closed around you like a dark cloud. The once sensible bloke is almost lost to us all.
Andrew the only smelly bag is you. Sorry the reality is based on your posting. Only now you are trying to back track, but feel free to spin on. After all it is you ass on the ground.
You posted about impregnating an intern. While it might be a challenge man up, admit a brain fart and move on.
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Shocking UN Report Lists Crimes by the Ukrainian Authorities
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/shocking-un-report-lists-crimes-ukrainian-authorities/ri14947
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Shocking UN Report Lists Crimes by the Ukrainian Authorities
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/shocking-un-report-lists-crimes-ukrainian-authorities/ri14947
Shocking UN Report Lists Crimes by the Ukrainian, Russian, Crimean, Donetsk and Lugansk Authorities with equal blame all around.
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf
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Shocking UN Report Lists Crimes by the Ukrainian Authorities
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/shocking-un-report-lists-crimes-ukrainian-authorities/ri14947
Shocking UN Report Lists Crimes by the Ukrainian, Russian, Crimean, Donetsk and Lugansk Authorities with equal blame all around.
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf
A report based upon the UN's ideals concerning Human Rights. (In a perfect world of course).
The majority of the report is based on hearsay rather than factual evidence, typical UN.
One must also remember that there is virtually NO country in the world who could get a good UN report except of course the UN's biggest paymaster the US of A..
Basically, the report is a load of bollocks and a complete waste of money, making "Jobs for the Boys & Girls" who are employed at the UN...
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Basically, the report is a load of bollocks and a complete waste of money, making "Jobs for the Boys & Girls" who are employed at the UN...
Yeah, right..
The report proves the dangers of talking up polarisation and the results
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The Wife expects Russia to step into Donbass soon, and this time not covertly and annex it like Crimea. They will also expand the warzone a bit.
Will see if that happens.
Mark.
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On what basis?
I hear the same from my friend Alex in Cyprus. He just says 'wait and see'!
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The Wife expects Russia to step into Donbass soon, and this time not covertly and annex it like Crimea. They will also expand the warzone a bit.
Will see if that happens.
Mark.
I still doubt it. There's no real benefit to Russia from doing so. Only if the safety of people in the region is threatened to a much greater degree than the ongoing bush war will Russia step in. However, I DO think that Russian military involvement is sought by pretty much all the non-Russian stakeholders.
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Militants Suffer Heavy Casualties: 38 separatists killed in last few days
http://uatoday.tv/news/separatists-take-heavy-losses-38-militants-killed-in-last-few-days-673313.html
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Ukraine's Foreign Ministry publishes more evidence of Russian aggression in Ukraine
http://uatoday.tv/crime/ukraine-s-foreign-ministry-publishes-more-evidence-of-russian-aggression-in-ukraine-678590.html
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Ukraine wins back tank farm from Russian-occupied authorities in Crimea
http://uatoday.tv/politics/ukraine-wins-back-tank-farm-from-russian-occupied-authorities-in-crimea-680735.html
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Ukraine conducts reconnaissance-in-force in Donbass, loses 200 soldiers - See more at:
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/30-06-2016/134881-donbass-0/#sthash.VocbHYWC.dpuf
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/30-06-2016/134881-donbass-0/
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Ukraine conducts reconnaissance-in-force in Donbass, loses 200 soldiers - See more at:
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/30-06-2016/134881-donbass-0/#sthash.VocbHYWC.dpuf
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/30-06-2016/134881-donbass-0/
Something half this big would normally be on social media by now however, it is not.
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Ukraine conducts reconnaissance-in-force in Donbass, loses 200 soldiers - See more at:
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/30-06-2016/134881-donbass-0/#sthash.VocbHYWC.dpuf
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/30-06-2016/134881-donbass-0/
Something half this big would normally be on social media by now however, it is not.
I checked several sources, and nothing mentioned, so it's possible this didn't happen.
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Don't you think it would be better and maybe give your 2800 posts a bit of credibility if you sourced these tales with other "news" outlets/blogs?
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Don't you think it would be better and maybe give your 2800 posts a bit of credibility if you sourced these tales with other "news" outlets/blogs?
Don, what Tom does, for your benefit, is uses aggregators who syndicate content from many other sites. This means that one site, such as Russia-Insider.com among others, can be a useful source for items from all over the world. Of course, if you had actually read any of the links Tom provides you'd know this already because each item that is syndicated on such a site is fully credited back to the original (often not English language) source.
In addition, because these sites provide translations of content from non-English sources such as french (yeah I know you are Canadian but I am sure that French means nothing to you!) or Russian (yeah I know your wife is a Russian speaker but I am sure that Russian means nothing to you) we readers get to be able to understand viewpoints that we would never normally see.
So, now that you know what you have been missing, what can you tell us about credibility, Don?
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Don't you think it would be better and maybe give your 2800 posts a bit of credibility if you sourced these tales with other "news" outlets/blogs?
Don, what Tom does, for your benefit, is uses aggregators who syndicate content from many other sites. This means that one site, such as Russia-Insider.com among others, can be a useful source for items from all over the world. Of course, if you had actually read any of the links Tom provides you'd know this already because each item that is syndicated on such a site is fully credited back to the original (often not English language) source.
In addition, because these sites provide translations of content from non-English sources such as french (yeah I know you are Canadian but I am sure that French means nothing to you!) or Russian (yeah I know your wife is a Russian speaker but I am sure that Russian means nothing to you) we readers get to be able to understand viewpoints that we would never normally see.
So, now that you know what you have been missing, what can you tell us about credibility, Don?
Credibility is earned.
As for TC, the chap is assailed from every side. He provides a service and a heads up (to RUA), I value it.
My only comment the TOPCAT postings is frequently anti American or neggy Western that we see from him. (For me not so much a problem there are certainly issues on this side of the 'pond'. But when one looks the claims (articles) fall apart, it reminds me of shrill women on the market trying to sell turkeys.
As an example the recent one being the naval ships in the MED. Russia is wrong and the video that was posted via RT confirmed this.
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With respect avhdb, once again, it seems that you are wrong.
Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect, but in the video shot from the Russian vessel the US craft is on the left. Thus the Russian vessel is to the right of the US one. Correct?
My understanding is that it is the vessel on the left that gives way to the vessel on the right when on a crossing path. Also, if the vessel on the left was asking permission to cross the path of the privileged vessel she would normally signal with two blasts of the ship's horn. The vessel to the right would then signal assent with 2 short blasts.
No signal was given by the vessel on the left and the crossing was, nonetheless, made.
To aid your recall here is video shot from the Russian craft facing forward showing the action of the US vessel. http://sputniknews.com/military/20160628/1042078009/russia-us-sea-destroyer.html
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Parabel:
simple as a parable teaching the dangers of inflexibility and self-importance, or the need for situation awareness.
Of course, the above is an urban legend... it never happened for real.
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As for TC, the chap is assailed from every side. He provides a service and a heads up (to RUA), I value it.
Yup, I value it too. :nod:
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Pravda, may have exaggerated in their report, but Tass Which is a bit more reliable source, reports Ukrainian forces had a bad week.
I'll try to find more information about this.
Militia say Kiev forces' losses in Donbass exceed 80 servicemen over past week
http://tass.ru/en/world/886030
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Most likely the source of the Tass report.
This too reports 80 Ukrainian soldiers killed in the past week.
Donetsk Defense: Weekly Situation Report, 01.07.16
https://dninews.com/article/donetsk-defense-weekly-situation-report-010716
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This from the Ukrainian side telling of rebel losses.
It was a much more aggressive week of fighting.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2016/06/28/ukraine_army_captures_8_and_kills_9_rebels_in_daring_operation_711818
http://zik.ua/en/news/2016/06/29/ukraine_army_captures_2_important_hillocks_destroy_6_rebels_712294
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Locals block movement of Ukraine military in Donetsk region (photos)
http://uatoday.tv/news/locals-block-movement-of-ukraine-military-in-donetsk-region-photos-687474.html
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President Poroshenko: Ukraine to restore Donbas infrastructure with help of international partners
http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economics/2045288-president-poroshenko-ukraine-to-restore-donbas-infrastructure-with-help-of-international-partners.html
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With respect avhdb, once again, it seems that you are wrong.
Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect, but in the video shot from the Russian vessel the US craft is on the left. Thus the Russian vessel is to the right of the US one. Correct?
My understanding is that it is the vessel on the left that gives way to the vessel on the right when on a crossing path. Also, if the vessel on the left was asking permission to cross the path of the privileged vessel she would normally signal with two blasts of the ship's horn. The vessel to the right would then signal assent with 2 short blasts.
No signal was given by the vessel on the left and the crossing was, nonetheless, made.
To aid your recall here is video shot from the Russian craft facing forward showing the action of the US vessel. http://sputniknews.com/military/20160628/1042078009/russia-us-sea-destroyer.html
I posted elsewhere regrading this incident ~ Port and Starboard crossings are not the issue.
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Parabel:
simple as a parable teaching the dangers of inflexibility and self-importance, or the need for situation awareness.
Of course, the above is an urban legend... it never happened for real.
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Three Ukrainian soldiers killed, 16 wounded in Donbas overnight
http://uatoday.tv/politics/three-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-16-wounded-in-donbas-overnight-692214.html
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Poroshenko Calls for International Mechanism of 'De-occupation' of Crimea.
http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160709/1042707241/crimea-poroshenko-.html
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According to Poroshenko, Ukraine has fully implemented the Minsk agreement, so by all rights the Ukrainian military would be defenceless to stop any aggression from the Russian side.
Poroshenko has stated he will regain control of the east, as well as take back Crimea. So more than likely any aggression would first come from the Ukrainian side.
ATO HQ: Russian proxies attack Ukraine 64 times in last 24 hours
http://uatoday.tv/news/ato-hq-russian-proxies-attack-ukraine-64-times-in-last-24-hours-696821.html
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Ukraine fighting threatens to reignite full-scale conflict
https://next.ft.com/content/72925b56-4daf-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc
Bloomberg: Ukrainian army deaths at most since 2015 as conflict worsens
http://www.Kievpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/bloomberg-ukrainian-army-deaths-at-most-since-2015-as-conflict-worsens-419040.html
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'We are neither Ukraine, nor Russia' - entrepreneurs rally in militant-held Donbas
http://uatoday.tv/society/we-are-neither-ukraine-nor-russia-entrepreneurs-rally-in-militant-held-donbas-699936.html
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It's no wonder the war in eastern Ukraine continues. Ukrainian mind set does not allow for reconciliation, it does not have anything really to do with Russian influence. But if Ukraine continues, Russia might at some point need to take matters into their own hands to bring an end to this.
Call for reconciliation over Ukraine conflict falls flat
http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-07-22/call-for-reconciliation-over-ukraine-conflict-falls-flat
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It's no wonder the war in eastern Ukraine continues. Ukrainian mind set does not allow for reconciliation, it does not have anything really to do with Russian influence. But if Ukraine continues, Russia might at some point need to take matters into their own hands to bring an end to this.
Call for reconciliation over Ukraine conflict falls flat
http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-07-22/call-for-reconciliation-over-ukraine-conflict-falls-flat
It is easy for outsiders to align with either side. It is easy for a Donbass resident to hate those who bomb them and it is easy for a Ukrainian family to hate those who killed their son. Russia was involved in Crimea and it is involved in the East. This is clear to Ukrainians. This is a war and there is nothing to apologize for. Indeed, an apology would be an insult to country and all that live there. At the same time the constant dribble of dead soldiers puts pressure on the government to do something. That something is more of an escalated war rather than an apology.
Minsk2 was doomed before it began. Government cannot do anything within an area that it cannot enter and does not have some sort of control over. You cannot have elections set to Ukrainian laws for the same reason and especially if the border is porous and not under control. This has been a point of argument for a year or more now. It is not likely to go change.
So a continued and possibly escalated war is the future. If Russia decides to invade as it did in Georgia and make a run to Kiev then it is something they are capable of for sure. The world will see a second Georgia and maybe get involved but most likely not. That is a gamble that Putin would take. I do believe though that Ukrainians believe that Russia would not hold what they would conquer, the government would fail, the world would have a mess to deal with and Russia would be at the center.
Rest assured though, there will not be an apology and Nadiya is about to get bitch slapped for bringing it up.
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Tell us Bagalia, in your fully informed opinion, what would be the benefits to Russia accruing from an invasion of Ukraine?
Bear in mind that even the EU in their investigation into the Georgian attack upon the Russian peacekeepers and the people of South Ossetia was the cause of Russian action to stop those attacks and that having attained their goal the Russian forces withdrew from Georgia.
I'd be interested to see how you, in your informed opinion, see Georgia as a useful comparison to the Ukraine case given your suggestions above.
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If Russia decides to invade as it did in Georgia and make a run to Kiev then it is something they are capable of for sure. The world will see a second Georgia and maybe get involved but most likely not. That is a gamble that Putin would take.
This is fantasy straight from Fox News or similar.
Russia will not be "invading" Ukraine or taking Kiev. You lot have destroyed what was Ukraine by your regime change and meddling causing Russia to react to retain Crimea. You will now watch what is left of Ukraine rot while you look for others to blame as you have done everywhere else you have meddled in. Note to selves: Don't start what you cannot finish.
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Ever notice that Russia and Putin don't seem to get much recognition for their work in negotiations for peace.
I made a comment of the possible need for Russia to take matters into their own hands, meaning negotiate a n end to the conflict.
The Minsk agreement might not have been ideal for Ukraine, but it seems to be better than continued fighting and destruction of infrastructure.
Neither side has much to gain by the continued conflict, except Ukraine can continue to play the victim, and hopefully getting more financial aid.
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Tell us Bagalia, in your fully informed opinion, what would be the benefits to Russia accruing from an invasion of Ukraine?
Bear in mind that even the EU in their investigation into the Georgian attack upon the Russian peacekeepers and the people of South Ossetia was the cause of Russian action to stop those attacks and that having attained their goal the Russian forces withdrew from Georgia.
I'd be interested to see how you, in your informed opinion, see Georgia as a useful comparison to the Ukraine case given your suggestions above.
I think you answered that question for yourself. Georgia did provoke Russia and Russia attacked for three reasons that I know of. One was because of the attack on South Ossetia. The second was the killing of Russian peacekeepers. The third was the fear of being encircled by western forces. Ukraine is similar to all three reasons.
In the first and second reason: It is a popular Russian claim that Ukraine is killing Russians. Russians against Russians so to speak.
Eastern Ukraine is not South Ossetia for sure but it is very similar in several ways. It is considered very Russian/Russian friendly by the people in Russia. It may not be independent but it supposedly wants to be and it wants to be part of Russia. The more Russia helps it the higher Putin's ratings will go. Russia protects the East in a way similar to how it protected South Ossetia. It is just not as legal and outright. A soldier killed in eastern Ukraine is a Russian killed as they see it. Ukraine is not even a real country, not really.
In the third reason:
Look to 2008 and Russian ultra nationalist Alexander Dugin. He seems to be somewhat of a prophet and it was not unknown at the time to have Ukraine and Georgia to be lumped together.
"The coming battle will be in Ukraine, he says, where pro-Western President Viktor Yushchenko looks increasingly beleaguered in his efforts to lead his country into NATO. Dugin says that if Ukraine pledges neutrality and normalizes its relations with Moscow, the issue can be settled peacefully. Otherwise, "there could be civil war, mass disturbances, and Ukraine could break up," he says. In time, "Russia will create a supernational state" to absorb pro-Moscow territories such as Belarus, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, eastern Ukraine and possibly large tracts of ex-Soviet Central Asia, Dugin says."
A war between the East and West Ukraine to Russians is like a war between Russians and a puppet of the US. As Manny infers, some believe that this whole Ukraine problem is a result of US intervention. He could be correct if only because we and other nations tend to get involved in such shady things. Somewhere in the future there can only be a one world government. We are only getting into the 1984 stage now. So a third reason for Russia to get into a Ukrainian invasion would be to counter a perceived US threat just as in Georgia and just as you all seem to claim Crimea was partly due to this perceived threat. I must note that as much as it could be possible, the sentiment above is not necessarily that of the Ukrainian people or of those involved in Maidan.
The land bridge to Crimea and take-over of Odessa. The completion of taking the Ukrainian coastline. Both a huge win for Russia. Along with Abkhazia and Crimea, further control of the Black Sea for military and oil purposes.
The hope of replacing Ukraine with a Russian friendly or neutral government. This was also somewhat successful in Georgia.
Georgia was a financial drag on Russia and a total failure in Ukraine would also be a drag but in the long run it might be worth it for Russia.
Georgia and Ukraine are very similar and both hold similar benefits to Russia.
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Ever notice that Russia and Putin don't seem to get much recognition for their work in negotiations for peace.
I made a comment of the possible need for Russia to take matters into their own hands, meaning negotiate a n end to the conflict.
The Minsk agreement might not have been ideal for Ukraine, but it seems to be better than continued fighting and destruction of infrastructure.
Neither side has much to gain by the continued conflict, except Ukraine can continue to play the victim, and hopefully getting more financial aid.
IF Russia was really concerned with peace it could probably achieve it quickly. IF it only wishes a broken state it needs only do nothing.
Ukraine has not fulfilled its commitments to Minsk2 but it can be seen to have done most all it can do up to this point. Is it possible to replace the government offices and banking system when it cannot enter or secure the territory? How does Ukraine even know who is living there? How can elections be possibly held? OSCE does not even have a good footprint there.
Do you think that if the army was disbanded today that Ukraine would start a mass killing? Do you think they would not honor the election? The constitutional amendment? It is possible even though they have committed to doing so. Remember that Minsk2 was created and signed by 3rd parties. It is possible but still not likely given the backlash.
Ukraine has committed itself to doing all the above but needs some control first. If Russia and Europe wants this election and wants it to be fair then this needs to be fixed in some way. The ceasefire must be enforced and borders secured. The election must be held under Ukraine or international eyes. The results must be enforced.
Problem is that Minsk2 was signed by people other than those at the center. Nobody really wanted peace. Nobody really wanted to take part in it and then there was the delay so an extra city could be captured. Then there was really not much of a pull back. This was not a peace treaty but more like an opportunity for a stalemate.
Foreign money may be finding its way into pockets but this war is not helping. Those who may have gained money could stand to lose it all.
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Some talk floating around has it that Crimea is now finally Russian and that the current government is undergoing a bit of a shakeup with a possible relocation to sunny Siberia.
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Ukraine Celebrates National Police Day (photos, video)
http://uatoday.tv/society/ukraine-celebrates-national-police-day-709572.html
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Bagalia, why do you trouble yourself to write factually incorrect stuff. Can I commend you to the text of the Minsk 2 agreement posted on this very site to aid people such as yourself who had formed opinions without benefit of knowledge.
If you read the document you might want to alter the silly words that you posted. it might help you to understand that, for example, the signatories are 'central' as you put it, to the agreement and situation. Petro Poroshenko, Angela merkel, Francois Hollande and Vladimir Putin negotiated the agreement whose basis was a document prepared by Vladimir Putin and the document was signed by the following:
Swiss diplomat and OSCE representative Heidi Tagliavini
Former president of Ukraine and Ukrainian representative Leonid Kuchma
Russian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russian representative Mikhail Zurabov
DPR and LPR leaders Alexander Zakharchenko and Igor Plotnitsky
NB. Kuchma signed in a plenipotentiary role, this means he was empowered by the Ukrainian government to sign documents on behalf of the government and state. Some people, possibly including yourself, have been of the unfounded opinion that because Kuchma is not a part of the current Ukrainian government he had no authority to sign and that as such the Minsk agreement is not an authoritative document as far as Ukraine is concerned.
Which of these people noted above would you, objectively, define as not being 'central' and as having no interest in seeing the agreement implemented?
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Bagalia, why do you trouble yourself to write factually incorrect stuff. Can I commend you to the text of the Minsk 2 agreement posted on this very site to aid people such as yourself who had formed opinions without benefit of knowledge.
If you read the document you might want to alter the silly words that you posted. it might help you to understand that, for example, the signatories are 'central' as you put it, to the agreement and situation. Petro Poroshenko, Angela merkel, Francois Hollande and Vladimir Putin negotiated the agreement whose basis was a document prepared by Vladimir Putin and the document was signed by the following:
Swiss diplomat and OSCE representative Heidi Tagliavini
Former president of Ukraine and Ukrainian representative Leonid Kuchma
Russian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russian representative Mikhail Zurabov
DPR and LPR leaders Alexander Zakharchenko and Igor Plotnitsky
NB. Kuchma signed in a plenipotentiary role, this means he was empowered by the Ukrainian government to sign documents on behalf of the government and state. Some people, possibly including yourself, have been of the unfounded opinion that because Kuchma is not a part of the current Ukrainian government he had no authority to sign and that as such the Minsk agreement is not an authoritative document as far as Ukraine is concerned.
Which of these people noted above would you, objectively, define as not being 'central' and as having no interest in seeing the agreement implemented?
Kuchma was not a bad choice and while there was some talk that his signature was not official it means little.
In answer to your first part, all the above people were central players in M2. They were asked in and given power over the whole.
It was not a matter of who was a central player but who should not have been a central player. As I said:
"Problem is that Minsk2 was signed by people other than those at the center. Nobody really wanted peace. Nobody really wanted to take part in it and then there was the delay so an extra city could be captured. Then there was really not much of a pull back. This was not a peace treaty but more like an opportunity for a stalemate."
When two sides will not speak to each other it doesn't much help for third parties to come in and make the rules for them. They must really want to fix things and at this point they do not. While I believe Poroshenko asked for talks, it was Russia that dominated them.
Which brings me to the second half of the question. Who did not wish for M2 to succeed?
DPR/LPR wants the best of all worlds and M2 is weighed heavily on their side. They must love M2 but ceasefires are a bitch when you need just a little more strategic land. Then you are stuck with a back and forth with neither side backing down. They are not ready for implementation even if they want it.
Kiev would like the East to be back where it was. Kiev did not even want to talk to DPR/LPR. So Kiev, despite trying to implement M2 (they had little choice) really does not want it to succeed at least anymore as it is impossible. They further show this by the continued request for weapons. If I remember correctly some language was added to M2 by Kiev that helps to make the implementation impossible.
Russia was in near total control of the M2 plan and there was very little possibility of negotiation. Either way it went was a win for Russia. If M2 completed then DPR/LPR is happy and Russia is happy. If it failed then Russia is still happy as it keeps Ukraine a mess and out of NATO. The steps in M2 make it impossible to complete. This is part Russia's fault. There are so many things that Russia could do to help stop this war but it will not.
The Western leaders saw M2 as at least a start and a ceasefire. It was not interested in enforcing the ceasefire. Merkel and Hollande were glad to get anything signed. They were powerless to create any real workable plan. They may care about M2 but they are just as fine with anything they can get. They get the incompetent vote.
OSCE probably cares about M2 for what that is worth.
All together, nothing will work with M2 because nobody cares enough to really do anything. That is the same as hoping it fails.
There will be no international peace keeping force as Poroshenko requested. Why?
There is an ineffective OSCE in the country. Why?
There are Russian soldiers vacationing in the East and Government advisors doing advising I guess. Why?
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More propaganda, Russia has every right to secure its borders. Makes perfect sense to have your military close to where it might be needed, verses sitting idle gathering dust.
Tensions High Amid Russian Military Buildup In Crimea
http://www.rferl.mobi/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-military-buildup/27909236.html
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Note that the article below was written in 2014.
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-troop-buildup-near-ukrainian-border-2014-3
Andriy Parubiy, the head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council [and DUB extraordinaire] said:
“Ukraine today is facing the threat of a full-scale invasion from various directions."
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More propaganda, Russia has every right to secure its borders. Makes perfect sense to have your military close to where it might be needed, verses sitting idle gathering dust.
Tensions High Amid Russian Military Buildup In Crimea
http://www.rferl.mobi/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-military-buildup/27909236.html
RADIO FREE EUROPE/RADIO LIBERTY = THE VOICE OF AMERICA and its Washington Masters of the occupied Europe!....
"Russia seized Crimea in March 2014 in the aftermath of the so-called Euromaidan protests in Kiev, that forced President Viktor Yanukovych to flee.
Moscow later declared it had annexed the peninsula, a move that has been rejected across the globe. Its naval base at Sevastopol is the home for the Russian Black Sea Fleet".
:rolleye0009: :sick0012: :'(
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RADIO FREE EUROPE/RADIO LIBERTY = THE VOICE OF AMERICA and its Washington Masters of the occupied Europe!....
Please share with us what part of Europe the Washington Masters is occupying - by this I mean like Russia is occupying parts of Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine.
For the good order the Soviet Union and its follow up has also used the radio waves to 'present' its 'view point'.
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RADIO FREE EUROPE/RADIO LIBERTY = THE VOICE OF AMERICA and its Washington Masters of the occupied Europe!....
Please share with us what part of Europe the Washington Masters is occupying - by this I mean like Russia is occupying parts of Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine.
For the good order the Soviet Union and its follow up has also used the radio waves to 'present' its 'view point'.
Do you know who started in and is financing this Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty
Is Germany officially an occupied country by the US until 2099?
How many bases has the USA in Germany, Poland, Baltics, Romania, Bulgaria,Greece, Cyprus UK….etc?
Now if you don’t know search to find out despite I have already posted on RUA the above information.
Abhasia and South Ossetia are operating as independent republics, and together with Georgia were part of the USSR. It is the US who arranged with Israel, for their stooge Sack my willy, to become the president of Georgia until he learned to eat his tie by Putin.
Crimea was always Russian independent republic until the US with the help of around 20 snipers, trained by the Israeli army, organised the coup in Kiev and started killing the Ukrainian people, so the people of Crimea organised their referendum and choose to be part of mother Russia.
You can continue like a dog barking for ever but get it in your brain, Crimea is part of Russia.
I suggest you learn history before opening your mouth and spouting propaganda. The US stooge in Kiev, the Jew Poroshenko… is in his last leg from what I read.
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RADIO FREE EUROPE/RADIO LIBERTY = THE VOICE OF AMERICA and its Washington Masters of the occupied Europe!....
Please share with us what part of Europe the Washington Masters is occupying - by this I mean like Russia is occupying parts of Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine.
For the good order the Soviet Union and its follow up has also used the radio waves to 'present' its 'view point'.
Do you know who started in and is financing this Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty
Is Germany officially an occupied country by the US until 2099?
How many bases has the USA in Germany, Poland, Baltics, Romania, Bulgaria,Greece, Cyprus UK….etc?
Now if you don’t know search to find out despite I have already posted on RUA the above information.
Abhasia and South Ossetia are operating as independent republics, and together with Georgia were part of the USSR. It is the US who arranged with Israel, for their stooge Sack my willy, to become the president of Georgia until he learned to eat his tie by Putin.
Crimea was always Russian independent republic until the US with the help of around 20 snipers, trained by the Israeli army, organised the coup in Kiev and started killing the Ukrainian people, so the people of Crimea organised their referendum and choose to be part of mother Russia.
You can continue like a dog barking for ever but get it in your brain, Crimea is part of Russia.
I suggest you learn history before opening your mouth and spouting propaganda. The US stooge in Kiev, the Jew Poroshenko… is in his last leg from what I read.
Can you read a broad base of opinions, I sort of doubt it. I would instead suggest you look at the world with out your hate filled mentality.
NATO has bases in many of the countries that you mention, but independent stand alone American bases are I believe only in Germany and Turkey. The countries you mention are not occupied by a foreign invader. The majority of countries that you mention host NATO bases. I should point out Europe has been more or less peaceful for more than 50 years with the presence of NATO. OK there was the divorce and genocide of former Yugoslavia and in the end even NATO was ineffective and The US had to yet again come to the European sand box and clean up. OK the southern Slavs are rather prone to have a quarrel, but since order was restored by America these countries have moved forward. I understand Kosovo has its own Olympic team in Rio.
While I have never met the Chocolate King can you tell us how you know he is Jewish?
The evidence is clear and overwhelming the majority of snipers were Russian in the service of the former convicted criminal.
And while not my taste there is nothing wrong with the Beach Boys, even on Liberty Radio. (I prefer B & B though = Bach by Gardiner and Beethoven by Bernstein) But Aaron Copeland is also quite enjoyable, and yes he was Jewish in his faith. Where is the problem?
Wait I hear it already because both Copeland and Bernstein were Jewish they ruined 20th century music. OK harp on Wiz, but you play an ugly melody.
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While I have never met the Chocolate King can you tell us how you know he is Jewish?
There is a lot on the net about it:
According to the popular Russian television channel Russia-1, Poroshenko’s father was a Jew named Alexei Valtsman from the Odessa region who in 1956 took on the last name of his wife, Yevgenya Poroshenko.
Poroshenko’s media team did not reply to JTA requests for comment, but they are not indifferent about the subject.
Last year, Poroshenko’s spokeswoman asked Forbes Israel to remove her boss’ name from a list of the world’s richest Jews, a magazine source confirmed.
http://forward.com/news/world/198758/ukraine-presidential-frontrunner-petro-poroshenko/
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Can you read a broad base of opinions, I sort of doubt it. I would instead suggest you look at the world with out your hate filled mentality.
NATO has bases in many of the countries that you mention, but independent stand alone American bases are I believe only in Germany and Turkey. The countries you mention are not occupied by a foreign invader. The majority of countries that you mention host NATO bases. I should point out Europe has been more or less peaceful for more than 50 years with the presence of NATO. OK there was the divorce and genocide of former Yugoslavia and in the end even NATO was ineffective and The US had to yet again come to the European sand box and clean up. OK the southern Slavs are rather prone to have a quarrel, but since order was restored by America these countries have moved forward. I understand Kosovo has its own Olympic team in Rio.
While I have never met the Chocolate King can you tell us how you know he is Jewish?
The evidence is clear and overwhelming the majority of snipers were Russian in the service of the former convicted criminal.
And while not my taste there is nothing wrong with the Beach Boys, even on Liberty Radio. (I prefer B & B though = Bach by Gardiner and Beethoven by Bernstein) But Aaron Copeland is also quite enjoyable, and yes he was Jewish in his faith. Where is the problem?
Wait I hear it already because both Copeland and Bernstein were Jewish they ruined 20th century music. OK harp on Wiz, but you play an ugly melody.
Let me make clear, something, for you to understand as you seem to have a huge problem for understanding plain English language, objective criticism and comments, based on facts and not on your personal insecurities, chip on your shaulder and your narrow mildness.
I don’t hate anybody, person, Race, Nationality or possible enemy, including you for that matter.
I am sure you think I hate the American people and also the Jews where in reality, I have no problem talking to anybody with common sense, debate every subject, except religion and criticise people and Governments for their actions and policies. Only fanatics mentally retarded and brainwashed people “hate” other human beings. Most of these people, if not all, seem to have some kind of inferiority complex, and to achieve their objectives and aims they don’t hesitate to oppress, violate and murder other human people who have different views or aims from theirs.
It is very clear to me that every time I criticise the American Administration or the Israel Government and its actions, you take offence and very fast you are first one to come out with your usual ignorant trolling behaviour. You never express an opposing opinion providing facts but only bullshit. At least I make an effort to search and provide the evidence to support my comments.
Just the latest example, about Poroshenko, is the one that “Manny” already answered to you with facts.
I was also going to refer you to this Jewish site (http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=23224) where I suggest you take a look at the date of the post for this gathering and read the text. Unfortunately, I did not copied, before, the huge number of photos that now have been removed, where you could have seen, many well known Jewish names from Ukraine and elsewhere.
“Top diplomats, politicians and business people attended the annual Chanukah party of Chabad activist Raphael Rutman”
"People cancelled trips and various meetings to take part in this prestigious event that concludes the days of Chanukah."
“Among the attendees were the following diplomats to the country - U.S. Ambassador John F. Tefft, United Kingdom Ambassador Simon Smith, Israeli Ambassador Reuven Din El and Swiss Ambassador Christian Schoenenberger.”
I am sure, as a frequent visitor to Kiev, you recognise some of those faces and names! Obviously this was the preparation party for the coup, which took place soon after.
As you are incapable or unwilling to search for facts, and you are talking with your back side, here is a list about American Bases abroad:
These are all the countries where the US has a military presence (http://qz.com/374138/these-are-all-the-countries-where-the-us-has-a-military-presence/)
“According to official information provided by the Department of Defense (DoD) and its Defense Manpower Data Center (DMDC) there are still about 40,000 US troops, and 179 US bases in Germany, over 50,000 troops in Japan (and 109 bases), and tens of thousands of troops, with hundreds of bases, all over Europe. Over 28,000 US troops are present in 85 bases in South Korea, and have been since 1957.
Altogether, based on information contained in the DoD’s latest Base Structure Report (BSR), the US has bases in at least 74 countries and troops practically all over the world, …. ranging from thousands to just one in some countries.”
Every member country of NATO has its own army bases which automatically are NATO Bases but we are talking about the USA which of course is the Hegemon and larger contributor. Basically the USA is the boss and the other partners have to follow and accommodate.
Yugoslavia was a very strong independent country before Clinton and the US destroy it and impoverish. Obviously you have not a clue for the real reasons, which started the civil war and why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed.
Just an indication; ... look for the German actions before the event and the NATO/USA justification for destroying the “Silk Road” from China to Germany and Holland, flattening their transport system and bombing all bridges and railway lines including also the Chinese Embassy!
AvHdB said: “The evidence is clear and overwhelming the majority of snipers were Russian in the service of the former convicted criminal.”
If you dispute the evidence, I posted previously from the Guardian, by a Jewish reporter (Kohen), THEN provide your evidence that the majority were Russian snipers and not Western Ukrainians trained for 8 years in the Israel army.
The rest of your comments…. are Crap. I suspect you are crypto Zionist Troll in a mission. Probably you are working for that Group employed by the Israeli Government to troll and check out all international Media.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-students-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook
There are also plenty of refernces on Google but you have to searh ny yourself!
PS: Summertime now, Children don't go to school so they take priority, so you have to wait for my replies!
tiphat
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Can you read a broad base of opinions, I sort of doubt it. I would instead suggest you look at the world with out your hate filled mentality.
NATO has bases in many of the countries that you mention, but independent stand alone American bases are I believe only in Germany and Turkey. The countries you mention are not occupied by a foreign invader. The majority of countries that you mention host NATO bases. I should point out Europe has been more or less peaceful for more than 50 years with the presence of NATO. OK there was the divorce and genocide of former Yugoslavia and in the end even NATO was ineffective and The US had to yet again come to the European sand box and clean up. OK the southern Slavs are rather prone to have a quarrel, but since order was restored by America these countries have moved forward. I understand Kosovo has its own Olympic team in Rio.
While I have never met the Chocolate King can you tell us how you know he is Jewish?
The evidence is clear and overwhelming the majority of snipers were Russian in the service of the former convicted criminal.
And while not my taste there is nothing wrong with the Beach Boys, even on Liberty Radio. (I prefer B & B though = Bach by Gardiner and Beethoven by Bernstein) But Aaron Copeland is also quite enjoyable, and yes he was Jewish in his faith. Where is the problem?
Wait I hear it already because both Copeland and Bernstein were Jewish they ruined 20th century music. OK harp on Wiz, but you play an ugly melody.
Let me make clear, something, for you to understand as you seem to have a huge problem for understanding plain English language, objective criticism and comments, based on facts and not on your personal insecurities, chip on your shaulder and your narrow mildness.
I don’t hate anybody, person, Race, Nationality or possible enemy, including you for that matter.
I am sure you think I hate the American people and also the Jews where in reality, I have no problem talking to anybody with common sense, debate every subject, except religion and criticise people and Governments for their actions and policies. Only fanatics mentally retarded and brainwashed people “hate” other human beings. Most of these people, if not all, seem to have some kind of inferiority complex, and to achieve their objectives and aims they don’t hesitate to oppress, violate and murder other human people who have different views or aims from theirs.
It is very clear to me that every time I criticise the American Administration or the Israel Government and its actions, you take offence and very fast you are first one to come out with your usual ignorant trolling behaviour. You never express an opposing opinion providing facts but only bullshit. At least I make an effort to search and provide the evidence to support my comments.
Just the latest example, about Poroshenko, is the one that “Manny” already answered to you with facts.
I was also going to refer you to this Jewish site (http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=23224) where I suggest you take a look at the date of the post for this gathering and read the text. Unfortunately, I did not copied, before, the huge number of photos that now have been removed, where you could have seen, many well known Jewish names from Ukraine and elsewhere.
“Top diplomats, politicians and business people attended the annual Chanukah party of Chabad activist Raphael Rutman”
"People cancelled trips and various meetings to take part in this prestigious event that concludes the days of Chanukah."
“Among the attendees were the following diplomats to the country - U.S. Ambassador John F. Tefft, United Kingdom Ambassador Simon Smith, Israeli Ambassador Reuven Din El and Swiss Ambassador Christian Schoenenberger.”
I am sure, as a frequent visitor to Kiev, you recognise some of those faces and names! Obviously this was the preparation party for the coup, which took place soon after.
As you are incapable or unwilling to search for facts, and you are talking with your back side, here is a list about American Bases abroad:
These are all the countries where the US has a military presence (http://qz.com/374138/these-are-all-the-countries-where-the-us-has-a-military-presence/)
“According to official information provided by the Department of Defense (DoD) and its Defense Manpower Data Center (DMDC) there are still about 40,000 US troops, and 179 US bases in Germany, over 50,000 troops in Japan (and 109 bases), and tens of thousands of troops, with hundreds of bases, all over Europe. Over 28,000 US troops are present in 85 bases in South Korea, and have been since 1957.
Altogether, based on information contained in the DoD’s latest Base Structure Report (BSR), the US has bases in at least 74 countries and troops practically all over the world, …. ranging from thousands to just one in some countries.”
Every member country of NATO has its own army bases which automatically are NATO Bases but we are talking about the USA which of course is the Hegemon and larger contributor. Basically the USA is the boss and the other partners have to follow and accommodate.
Yugoslavia was a very strong independent country before Clinton and the US destroy it and impoverish. Obviously you have not a clue for the real reasons, which started the civil war and why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed.
Just an indication; ... look for the German actions before the event and the NATO/USA justification for destroying the “Silk Road” from China to Germany and Holland, flattening their transport system and bombing all bridges and railway lines including also the Chinese Embassy!
AvHdB said: “The evidence is clear and overwhelming the majority of snipers were Russian in the service of the former convicted criminal.”
If you dispute the evidence, I posted previously from the Guardian, by a Jewish reporter (Kohen), THEN provide your evidence that the majority were Russian snipers and not Western Ukrainians trained for 8 years in the Israel army.
The rest of your comments…. are Crap. I suspect you are crypto Zionist Troll in a mission. Probably you are working for that Group employed by the Israeli Government to troll and check out all international Media.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-students-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook
There are also plenty of refernces on Google but you have to searh ny yourself!
PS: Summertime now, Children don't go to school so they take priority, so you have to wait for my replies!
tiphat
Wiz, Enjoy the smalls, I often have learned more from them than the internet.
I admire that you do not hate anything! Though I must say my mother (now deceased) and you would have gotten quite well.
Regarding the snipers the majority of the ballistics were only available to owners of 'Russian' weapons. Further there are TWO only two shootings where it is possible the gun fire came from the 'Maidan' side.
Regarding NATO we see the situation in a different light. I accept (but do not agree) your view point.
As for your postings regarding Chanukah what are you trying to say.
Regarding Porschenko he has on a number of occasions identified being Christian (Orthodox) is this a problem for you or do you have some higher standard regarding who is Christian?
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Personal insult removed - leslied
About look who benefitted from the snipers. This sniper fire cause the exchange of power in Kiev to be less orderly causing confusing making it harder for the Ukraine to respond to the Kremlin take over of Crimea and delay the response in eastern Ukraine. That set up the conditions that Putin like to call the government in Kiev Junta in his propaganda even though that never had any real validity. Yamu ran because he was being charged with murder over the snipers though it turned out to not be him that set up the snipers.
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Ukrainian president orders forces on border with Crimea and eastern Ukraine on highest alert
https://www.rt.com/news/355520-ukraine-troops-border-alert/
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Ukrainian president orders forces on border with Crimea and eastern Ukraine on highest alert
https://www.rt.com/news/355520-ukraine-troops-border-alert/
Ah great, I fly there 13th ... lucky me, it isn't Friday, but Saturday.
So thats why all the RU-soldiers on vacation were suddenly recalled to active duty in Evp.
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When do the Olympics end?
I'd wait to travel until after the closing ceremony! :plane:
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AvHdB
I told you already that with you I am wasting my time, as you can't read neither give a decent reply to any of my comments.
In my post i have already given you my opinion and you go on asking me what do I mean about the party?
Sorry but I get a more intelligent conversation with my granddaughters than with you.
Had a wonderful time playing with them, enjoyed the lovely sunshine in my garden and time to go to sleep as it's nearly midnight over here.
You may ask somebody else to help you understanding my posting.....
Good night! tiphat
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Wiz, remind us when you were last in Ukraine...? It's just I checked the thread title... :chuckle:
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Wiz, remind us when you were last in Ukraine...? It's just I checked the thread title... :chuckle:
I noticed you were looking for hotels in Crimea.
Is that your plan to meet your woman in there, before the imposition of Visas or you accepted another dangerous assignment from her "Majesty's Service", so to pay for your trip?
They must pay you well, for you to take such high risk jobs or you have gone off your rocker.... without nooky!
PS: I don't have to visit Ukraine anymore, unlike you, as my Ukrainian contacts provide me first hand and in person the inside story, when visiting the UK!
In actual fact, it was last Monday, when I had my friend here and I was told, they think, Poroshenko is on his last legs! :P
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Chocolate Bunny is low in the polls yes. He is somewhere in the 40s. Obama is at 51 and has been lower.
If elections were held today our Bunny would most likely be re-elected. There is no better soul in the running. So last legs are in the eye of the beholder. He is not going anywhere soon.
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Ukraine Today: New US ambassador to arrive in Ukraine ‘next week’
https://www.Kievpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/ukraine-today-new-us-ambassador-to-arrive-in-ukraine-next-week-421449.html
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August 24th Ukraine celebrates its 25th year of independence, congratulations!
‘The War Won’t Be Over Soon’: Ukraine’s Long Fight Against Russia for Freedom
http://dailysignal.com/2016/08/22/the-war-wont-be-over-soon-ukraines-long-fight-against-russia-for-freedom/
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This is bad.Slavs kill Slavs.Whom is benefits?
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Lithuania says it supplies ammunition to Ukraine for first time in two years - Reuters
http://uatoday.tv/politics/lithuania-says-it-supplies-ammunition-to-ukraine-for-first-time-in-two-years-reuters-739610.html
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This is bad.Slavs kill Slavs.Whom is benefits?
While it is a sad reality.
It has unfortunately been going on for centuries. In recent history there was Lenin & Stalin, and before others.
Wait there is a new Vladimir, who also has no problem murdering other Slavs.
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Ukraine's hope of a western style of living is proving difficult. Poroshenko continues to urge the EU, and others to continue sanctions on Russia, so what did he expect? But it's not just Ukraine that is losing billions from loss of the Russian market. It's no wonder trade with Ukraine is down in Europe as well.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said that Kiev had lost 15 billion dollars from the loss of the Russian market, which he said was an "economic shock", according to RIA Novosti
https://m.sputniknews.com/world/20160906/1045018510/russia-ukraine-poroshenko-sanctions.html
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The olive branch has been offered, will Kiev accept the peace offering?
Ukraine rebel leader announces unilateral cease-fire
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/09/13/ukraine-rebel-leader-announces-unilateral-cease-fire/90296446/
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Let's see. It looks a number of different parts are aligning to perhaps allow a breakthrough. I wouldn't bet on it, but all the different and connected events make for an intriguing prospect.
.
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The olive branch has been offered, will Kiev accept the peace offering?
Ukraine rebel leader announces unilateral cease-fire
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/09/13/ukraine-rebel-leader-announces-unilateral-cease-fire/90296446/
Less of an offer, more of a test and demonstration.
I am certain that there's no expectation that the Kievan regime will follow suit, or even if they did that forces on the ground would follow instructions.
This is a feint move, designed to demonstrate the degree to which the Kievans have no intent of making peaceful progress.
At the same time this is also a test of the OSCE because it will be hard for them to blame the LPR/DPR defence forces for actions being taken, in isolation, by the Kievans. Will the OSCE be honest, to what degree will they be honest? That's a research question for the LPR/DPR leadership and Moscow.
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Anyone know anything about this?
Russian-backed rebels ‘shoot down helicopter carrying Nato advisors’ over eastern Ukraine, local media reports
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/553726/helicopter-shot-down-nato-officials-ukrainian-rebels
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Searching under the OSCE monitor pages for helicopter or Krasnogorovka produced nothing ...
Pronouncements of 'targets hit' from the 'rebels' are not historically accurate - are they ?
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Kiev threatened to send fighter jets to ground Belarusian passenger plane – air carrier
https://www.rt.com/news/363763-ukraine-belavia-antimaidan-plane/
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Searching under the OSCE monitor pages for helicopter or Krasnogorovka produced nothing ...
Pronouncements of 'targets hit' from the 'rebels' are not historically accurate - are they ?
Since there are pictures and everything, I will assume the OSCE simply missed this event or were still investigating when the news broke.
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Kiev threatened to send fighter jets to ground Belarusian passenger plane – air carrier
https://www.rt.com/news/363763-ukraine-belavia-antimaidan-plane/
This was in the Russian news already last week or something.
This bullying of Kiev's forces raises so many questions its simply absurd.
The 2 bigger ones being:
- Why not land in Lvov, to offload the offending passenger.
- Why not ask Belarus to investigate, or doesn't Kiev trust Minsk either, they are making friends of their neighbours aren't they.
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Since there are pictures and everything, I will assume the OSCE simply missed this event or were still investigating when the news broke.
You mean like the 'radar data'and 'everything' that suggested two UA SU-25's 'shot down' MH17 - as presented by the Kremlin on July 24th 2014 ?...
This was in the Russian news already last week or something.
This bullying of Kiev's forces raises so many questions its simply absurd.
The 2 bigger ones being:
- Why not land in Lvov, to offload the offending passenger.
- Why not ask Belarus to investigate, or doesn't Kiev trust Minsk either, they are making friends of their neighbours aren't they.
Why would a plane go farther to the west - Lvov- when the route to Minsk is virtually north - south with Kiev, the nearest UA airport ?
The plane was still over UA airspace ...
That the passenger was subsequently released hardly suggests Kiev has 'bullied' ..Russia is one of several nations that have laws allowing the shooting down of commercial jets if the airliner is hijacked
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You mean like the 'radar data'and 'everything' that suggested two UA SU-25's 'shot down' MH17 - as presented by the Kremlin on July 24th 2014 ?...
The kremlin is no player in this news event.
Why would a plane go farther to the west - Lvov- when the route to Minsk is virtually north - south with Kiev, the nearest UA airport ?
The plane was still over UA airspace ...
The plane was over Rivne when redirected, Lvov is much closer there than Kiev. Don't ask me why it took this silly route, if it had gone straight to Belarus north, this incident would have been avoided.
That the passenger was subsequently released hardly suggests Kiev has 'bullied' ..Russia is one of several nations that have laws allowing the shooting down of commercial jets if the airliner is hijacked
Russia is not Ukraine, why mention them? Do you have problems seperating these countries in your head?
You might as well have said : America is one of several nations that ......
As to bullying: The kid demanding your pocket money hasn't beaten you up after you gave it. No bullying, yes?
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You mean like the 'radar data'and 'everything' that suggested two UA SU-25's 'shot down' MH17 - as presented by the Kremlin on July 24th 2014 ?...
The kremlin is no player in this news event.
'Sure' the fact they 'sponsor' the breakaway regions of Ukraine and previously supplied evidence from 'within that have been busted is awkward for you..but highly relevant to to the 'validity' of photographic 'evidence'
Why would a plane go farther to the west - Lvov- when the route to Minsk is virtually north - south with Kiev, the nearest UA airport ?
The plane was still over UA airspace ...
The plane was over Rivne when redirected, Lvov is much closer there than Kiev. Don't ask me why it took this silly route, if it had gone straight to Belarus north, this incident would have been avoided.
Suggest you subscribe to the premium version of Flightradar 24 or similar - It will save you the embarrassment of quoting WELL dodgy sources as to routes
That the passenger was subsequently released hardly suggests Kiev has 'bullied' ..Russia is one of several nations that have laws allowing the shooting down of commercial jets if the airliner is hijacked
Russia is not Ukraine, why mention them? Do you have problems seperating these countries in your head?
I use the example as the OP used a Kremlin sponsored 'source' ...
You might as well have said : America is one of several nations that ......
If the OP had used his source from that nation ... it would be relevant..Indeed, it is a nation that has legislation in place to shoot down commercial aviation considered 'rogue'.
As to bullying: The kid demanding your pocket money hasn't beaten you up after you gave it. No bullying, yes?
Awful analogy ..A state recalling an airliner - in it's own airspace - for reasons of 'national security' is not bullying - esp. when it releases the 'suspect' ..
As it was mistaken - even if it wasn't - I'm certain there are protocols for compensation. Perhaps someone has the time / knowledge to enlighten us
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'Sure' the fact they 'sponsor' the breakaway regions of Ukraine and previously supplied evidence from 'within that have been busted is awkward for you..but highly relevant to to the 'validity' of photographic 'evidence'
Yes, it must be awkward to be caught with your pants down. Trying to discredit the evidence will get you nowhere in this case though, as everyone said it happened.
The plane was over Rivne when redirected, Lvov is much closer there than Kiev. Don't ask me why it took this silly route, if it had gone straight to Belarus north, this incident would have been avoided.
Suggest you subscribe to the premium version of Flightradar 24 or similar - It will save you the embarrassment of quoting WELL dodgy sources as to routes
Riiight, you must think I care that much.
Russia is not Ukraine, why mention them? Do you have problems seperating these countries in your head?
I use the example as the OP used a Kremlin sponsored 'source' ...
You might as well have said : America is one of several nations that ......
If the OP had used his source from that nation ... it would be relevant..Indeed, it is a nation that has legislation in place to shoot down commercial aviation considered 'rogue'.
Ah it was a trip down memory lane of other countries who have the same legislation. Ok then.
As to bullying: The kid demanding your pocket money hasn't beaten you up after you gave it. No bullying, yes?
Awful analogy ..A state recalling an airliner - in it's own airspace - for reasons of 'national security' is not bullying - esp. when it releases the 'suspect' ..
As it was mistaken - even if it wasn't - I'm certain there are protocols for compensation. Perhaps someone has the time / knowledge to enlighten us
Right, thats why the airliner is going to Sue for getting these damages corrected. Plus the passenger will also sue Kiev. one huge cock up.
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'Sure' the fact they 'sponsor' the breakaway regions of Ukraine and previously supplied evidence from 'within that have been busted is awkward for you..but highly relevant to to the 'validity' of photographic 'evidence'
Yes, it must be awkward to be caught with your pants down. Trying to discredit the evidence will get you nowhere in this case though, as everyone said it happened.
'everyone' ? Now THAT is funny..
Riiight, you must think I care that much.
Continue to quote 'bollox', then - you had enough clues to your folly..
Ah it was a trip down memory lane of other countries who have the same legislation. Ok then.
This is merely your attempt to deflect ... I explained the relevance
Right, thats why the airliner is going to Sue for getting these damages corrected. Plus the passenger will also sue Kiev. one huge cock up.
Like I said .. Ukraine should pay .... Hopefully, they will not be as recalcitrant as other states re accepting responsibility for their actions ..
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Yes, it must be awkward to be caught with your pants down. Trying to discredit the evidence will get you nowhere in this case though, as everyone said it happened.
'everyone' ? Now THAT is funny..
So tell me who didn't ... omission isn't fact.
Kiev did: (Turchinov)
DPR did and gloated about it (Zakarchenko)
Anyone who needs mentioning then?
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Ukrainian minister says Donbass residents genetically unfit for national culture
https://www.rt.com/news/367972-ukraine-donbass-genes-culture/
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Like Wiz is trying to say here. Brexit maybe the beginning of the whole EU falling apart. The effects of this will be far reaching and will cause economic disruptions that will be different than any body could dream of. The EU is the worlds economy and its felling apart will be a big deal. This is not a good thing as it will make Europe less significant.
It would be the best thing that could happen IMHO, return nationalities to their owners, Elected bodies, who do not try to tell others WHAT they must do...
The whole war in the Ukraine is over the Ukraine joining the EU in ten plus years. There is a very good chance the EU will not even exist in ten years.
Who is Ukraine at war with ? Pray tell.... :coffeeread:
Ukraine is at war with Ukraine. They clearly have a split-personality!!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Just came back from Kharkov. I have talked to a lot of people form the DNR and LNR. No body from the area I talk to believes anything else other than the Ukraine is at war with Russia. Most people there are scared the Donald Trump will not keep pressure on Putin and that the area now own by Russia's puppet government in the LPR and LPR will get larger as well as the poverty is causes will expand to more people. Maybe you guys should try going there and see how the locals feel.
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Like Wiz is trying to say here. Brexit maybe the beginning of the whole EU falling apart. The effects of this will be far reaching and will cause economic disruptions that will be different than any body could dream of. The EU is the worlds economy and its felling apart will be a big deal. This is not a good thing as it will make Europe less significant.
It would be the best thing that could happen IMHO, return nationalities to their owners, Elected bodies, who do not try to tell others WHAT they must do...
The whole war in the Ukraine is over the Ukraine joining the EU in ten plus years. There is a very good chance the EU will not even exist in ten years.
Who is Ukraine at war with ? Pray tell.... :coffeeread:
Ukraine is at war with Ukraine. They clearly have a split-personality!!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Just came back from Kharkov. I have talked to a lot of people form the DNR and LNR. No body from the area I talk to believes anything else other than the Ukraine is at war with Russia. Most people there are scared the Donald Trump will not keep pressure on Putin and that the area now own by Russia's puppet government in the LPR and LPR will get larger as well as the poverty is causes will expand to more people. Maybe you guys should try going there and see how the locals feel.
Much of the poverty is being caused by the Ukrainian government, implementing IMF's/EMF's rules..
I have several relatives in Kharkov, and visit frequently...
Do you fully understand Russian or Ukrainian perchance??
Ukraine is NOT at war with Russia, it is in a civil war within its own borders.. Fact... :coffeeread:
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Like Wiz is trying to say here. Brexit maybe the beginning of the whole EU falling apart. The effects of this will be far reaching and will cause economic disruptions that will be different than any body could dream of. The EU is the worlds economy and its felling apart will be a big deal. This is not a good thing as it will make Europe less significant.
It would be the best thing that could happen IMHO, return nationalities to their owners, Elected bodies, who do not try to tell others WHAT they must do...
The whole war in the Ukraine is over the Ukraine joining the EU in ten plus years. There is a very good chance the EU will not even exist in ten years.
Who is Ukraine at war with ? Pray tell.... :coffeeread:
Ukraine is at war with Ukraine. They clearly have a split-personality!!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Just came back from Kharkov. I have talked to a lot of people form the DNR and LNR. No body from the area I talk to believes anything else other than the Ukraine is at war with Russia. Most people there are scared the Donald Trump will not keep pressure on Putin and that the area now own by Russia's puppet government in the LPR and LPR will get larger as well as the poverty is causes will expand to more people. Maybe you guys should try going there and see how the locals feel.
Honestly I feel sad for the people of Ukraine however when outside agitators come in (funded by Soros no doubt) and certain characters from W. Ukraine rushed over to the Donbas, what did you expect?
I have a hard time at this point in time believing that Yanukovych's ouster was nothing less than a coup, instigated by the same who I just mentioned.
Sure maybe he was no angel, but look at the mess they're in now. Is it not worse?
Oligarchs will steal money and be protected or leave but the normal people suffer. >:(
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Like Wiz is trying to say here. Brexit maybe the beginning of the whole EU falling apart. The effects of this will be far reaching and will cause economic disruptions that will be different than any body could dream of. The EU is the worlds economy and its felling apart will be a big deal. This is not a good thing as it will make Europe less significant.
It would be the best thing that could happen IMHO, return nationalities to their owners, Elected bodies, who do not try to tell others WHAT they must do...
The whole war in the Ukraine is over the Ukraine joining the EU in ten plus years. There is a very good chance the EU will not even exist in ten years.
Who is Ukraine at war with ? Pray tell.... :coffeeread:
Ukraine is at war with Ukraine. They clearly have a split-personality!!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Just came back from Kharkov. I have talked to a lot of people form the DNR and LNR. No body from the area I talk to believes anything else other than the Ukraine is at war with Russia. Most people there are scared the Donald Trump will not keep pressure on Putin and that the area now own by Russia's puppet government in the LPR and LPR will get larger as well as the poverty is causes will expand to more people. Maybe you guys should try going there and see how the locals feel.
Much of the poverty is being caused by the Ukrainian government, implementing IMF's/EMF's rules..
I have several relatives in Kharkov, and visit frequently...
Do you fully understand Russian or Ukrainian perchance??
Ukraine is NOT at war with Russia, it is in a civil war within its own borders.. Fact... :coffeeread:
Surely you cannot deny that weapons, money and Russian soldiers have been involved, can you?
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Like Wiz is trying to say here. Brexit maybe the beginning of the whole EU falling apart. The effects of this will be far reaching and will cause economic disruptions that will be different than any body could dream of. The EU is the worlds economy and its felling apart will be a big deal. This is not a good thing as it will make Europe less significant.
It would be the best thing that could happen IMHO, return nationalities to their owners, Elected bodies, who do not try to tell others WHAT they must do...
The whole war in the Ukraine is over the Ukraine joining the EU in ten plus years. There is a very good chance the EU will not even exist in ten years.
Who is Ukraine at war with ? Pray tell.... :coffeeread:
Ukraine is at war with Ukraine. They clearly have a split-personality!!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Just came back from Kharkov. I have talked to a lot of people form the DNR and LNR. No body from the area I talk to believes anything else other than the Ukraine is at war with Russia. Most people there are scared the Donald Trump will not keep pressure on Putin and that the area now own by Russia's puppet government in the LPR and LPR will get larger as well as the poverty is causes will expand to more people. Maybe you guys should try going there and see how the locals feel.
Much of the poverty is being caused by the Ukrainian government, implementing IMF's/EMF's rules..
I have several relatives in Kharkov, and visit frequently...
Do you fully understand Russian or Ukrainian perchance??
Ukraine is NOT at war with Russia, it is in a civil war within its own borders.. Fact... :coffeeread:
Surely you cannot deny that weapons, money and Russian soldiers have been involved, can you?
It's a known fact on here that Russian soldiers are only in Ukraine on vacation helping pro-Russian separatist to separate.
That's all.
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Like Wiz is trying to say here. Brexit maybe the beginning of the whole EU falling apart. The effects of this will be far reaching and will cause economic disruptions that will be different than any body could dream of. The EU is the worlds economy and its felling apart will be a big deal. This is not a good thing as it will make Europe less significant.
It would be the best thing that could happen IMHO, return nationalities to their owners, Elected bodies, who do not try to tell others WHAT they must do...
The whole war in the Ukraine is over the Ukraine joining the EU in ten plus years. There is a very good chance the EU will not even exist in ten years.
Who is Ukraine at war with ? Pray tell.... :coffeeread:
Ukraine is at war with Ukraine. They clearly have a split-personality!!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Just came back from Kharkov. I have talked to a lot of people form the DNR and LNR. No body from the area I talk to believes anything else other than the Ukraine is at war with Russia. Most people there are scared the Donald Trump will not keep pressure on Putin and that the area now own by Russia's puppet government in the LPR and LPR will get larger as well as the poverty is causes will expand to more people. Maybe you guys should try going there and see how the locals feel.
Much of the poverty is being caused by the Ukrainian government, implementing IMF's/EMF's rules..
I have several relatives in Kharkov, and visit frequently...
Do you fully understand Russian or Ukrainian perchance??
Ukraine is NOT at war with Russia, it is in a civil war within its own borders.. Fact... :coffeeread:
Surely you cannot deny that weapons, money and Russian soldiers have been involved, can you?
I cannot agree nor deny any of the above, as I have not seen such with my own eyes..
Can you deny that there are about 70,000 Ukrainian military personnel who have deserted the Ukrainian military, with their armourments and are now fighting for Novorossiya..??
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^That's one hell of an "adventure" style vacation. Do they at least get quadruple miles for that? :laugh:
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There's been an increase of fighting both sides claim the other to be the aggressor.
Ukraine army 'repulsed rebel attack' near Debaltseve in east
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38366712
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There's been an increase of fighting both sides claim the other to be the aggressor.
Ukraine army 'repulsed rebel attack' near Debaltseve in east
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38366712
Messenger, did you really mean 'repulsed' the rebel attack or repulsed the 'rebel' attack ?
In the meantime, the OSCE monitors' reports back up the fact the is heavy fighting / shelling by both sides
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/290026 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/290026)
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A unique interpretation.
(Quote)
The recent advance of the Ukrainian army that led to capture of some territory in the Svitlodar area, the minister went on, cannot be viewed as a violation of the Minsk agreements as the territory belongs to Ukraine.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2017/01/04/donbas_5000_russian_regulars__ukraine_defense_minister_says_1020411
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For what is worth.
http://theartnewspaper.com/news/news/stolen-old-master-paintings-heading-back-to-verona-/?utm_source=daily_dec22_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email_daily&utm_source=The+Art+Newspaper+Newsletters&utm_campaign=3031128a78-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_21&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c459f924d0-3031128a78-60965413
While it seems the collection was found in Ukraine it was stolen by Moldavians.
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For what is worth.
http://theartnewspaper.com/news/news/stolen-old-master-paintings-heading-back-to-verona-/?utm_source=daily_dec22_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email_daily&utm_source=The+Art+Newspaper+Newsletters&utm_campaign=3031128a78-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_21&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c459f924d0-3031128a78-60965413
While it seems the collection was found in Ukraine it was stolen by Moldavians.
Italian justice ...
5 years?
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However, if it was 5 years like the old soviet bloc countries ....
They would never steal a piece of bread if they were starving.
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For what is worth.
http://theartnewspaper.com/news/news/stolen-old-master-paintings-heading-back-to-verona-/?utm_source=daily_dec22_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email_daily&utm_source=The+Art+Newspaper+Newsletters&utm_campaign=3031128a78-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_21&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c459f924d0-3031128a78-60965413
While it seems the collection was found in Ukraine it was stolen by Moldavians.
Italian justice ...
5 years?
As the police following leads closed in, the group of paintings was 'discovered' last year.
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Ukraine conflict: Deadly flare-up in east
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38794679
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Now that was a great idea! :chuckle:
Kremlin: Russia cannot take Crimea on lease from itself
http://rbth.com/news/2017/02/20/kremlin-russia-cannot-take-crimea-on-lease-from-itself_706051
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It would be better today, if Russia had never invaded Ukraine.
BUT, I am not sure there is an easy solution to cool things off.
First, Ukraine will not forget soon all the casualties, damages, and land taken.
Second, Russia will not return lands taken at this moment in time.
Wayne
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It would be better today, if Russia had never invaded Ukraine.
They didn't, so clearly it's better already.
It'd be better if Ukraine wasn't attacking the eastern breakaway regions still. :whist11:
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After three years of Russia’s war against Ukraine, the two nations still find it impossible to sever economic ties. In fact, Ukraine’s No 1 enemy is also its No. 1 investor.In 2016, Russia invested $1.67 billion in Ukraine – 38 percent of the country’s total foreign direct investment, according to the data released by the State Statistics Service on March 1.The second-biggest source of foreign money, Cyprus, pumped in $427 million, four times less than Russia. But with Cyprus’ status as an offshore tax haven, much of that money is simply recycling back to the nation of origin.
https://www.Kievpost.com/ukraine-politics/no-1-enemy-also-no-1-investor-3-years-russias-war-ukraine.html
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Ukrainian cyber crimes unit seizes software company stuff...
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/05/ukrainian-police-seize-software-companys-servers.html
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It would be better today, if Russia had never invaded Ukraine.
They didn't, so clearly it's better already.
It'd be better if Ukraine wasn't attacking the eastern breakaway regions still. :whist11:
When you take an interpretation of fact beyond the breaking point, your interpretation becomes propaganda.
LGM were the invaders, Putin admitted it; so get over it.
Either you are for the strong man approach; or you reject Putin and his method.
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When you take an interpretation of fact beyond the breaking point, your interpretation becomes propaganda.
LGM were the invaders, Putin admitted it; so get over it.
In crimea.... nobody admitted anything to Donbass, although the press seems to think Lavrov did last week.
+ for the first time, kudos to the Dutch government news channel NOS for picking aparts Lavrov's word and admitting that he said no such thing but implied something political and not military.
He was simply mis-translated to English....
http://nos.nl/artikel/2181049-zei-lavrov-wel-of-niet-dat-rusland-zich-mengde-in-oorlog-oost-oekraine.html
Either you are for the strong man approach; or you reject Putin and his method.
Or you're simply trying to read stuff that isn't there.
For an army taking part, there sure aren't many pictures of it despite the cell-phone era.
This must be the most invisible army anyone ever saw.
+ If you'd read up on WW-2, you'd know that keeping a local populace under control that is hostile to you will yield very, very different pictures than the ones we get from Donbass.
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Markje,
"IF", "You would know."
Terrible use of logic, learn from Andrew, if you are going to use logic to push your point into a propaganda piece, use better logic.
For example, using your logic, "If you were a man, then you would _____". Fill in the blank, because I won't do a personal attack.
As for pictures, there are thousands. You just choose to ignore them.
As for Lavrov? Get real.
http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/issues/Summer_2016/5_Bukkvoll.pdf (http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/issues/Summer_2016/5_Bukkvoll.pdf) Great US source.
From Putin's own words:
“We never said there were no people there who carried out certain tasks including in the military sphere, but that doesn't mean there are any regular Russian troops. See the difference,”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/12054164/Vladimir-Putins-annual-press-conference-2015-live.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/12054164/Vladimir-Putins-annual-press-conference-2015-live.html)
Now, if you were ignorant, or stupid; I would not respond. However, the other option is you are an active source of Russian propaganda. Normally, sloppy propaganda is done by double agents - provocateurs.
I can admit, my bias is not for Russia. But, as I have written, even here, I was against the stupidity of my State Dept under Obama invading Syria and forcing Putin's hand. Putin said it over and over. Then he acted.
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Markje,
"IF", "You would know."
Terrible use of logic, learn from Andrew, if you are going to use logic to push your point into a propaganda piece, use better logic.
You think its propaganda, I don't. The truth is out there somewhere but we are not seeing it, as Andrew said multiple times.
For example, using your logic, "If you were a man, then you would _____". Fill in the blank, because I won't do a personal attack.
Yet you just did. You insinuated a personal attack that you didnt voice. As I never attacked you personally, this makes you look like the jerk here.
As for pictures, there are thousands. You just choose to ignore them.
Ok, try to find me a few with at least a whole batallion on them, not some soldiers on vacation here or there, or lost in the woods, or whatever other excuses came up.
Although I personally DO believe there are things we don't know about from the RU-military, there is still very little proof.
As for Lavrov? Get real.
http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/issues/Summer_2016/5_Bukkvoll.pdf (http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/issues/Summer_2016/5_Bukkvoll.pdf) Great US source.
What does this article from 2016 have to do with the words Lavrov spoke last friday?
From Putin's own words:
“We never said there were no people there who carried out certain tasks including in the military sphere, but that doesn't mean there are any regular Russian troops. See the difference,”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/12054164/Vladimir-Putins-annual-press-conference-2015-live.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/12054164/Vladimir-Putins-annual-press-conference-2015-live.html)
Now, if you were ignorant, or stupid; I would not respond. However, the other option is you are an active source of Russian propaganda. Normally, sloppy propaganda is done by double agents - provocateurs.
Another personal attack, such a nice person you are.
I will respond when/where I want and that does not make me stupid.
Perhaps you also want to strip people of their right to free-speech if they don't agree with you.
I can admit, my bias is not for Russia. But, as I have written, even here, I was against the stupidity of my State Dept under Obama invading Syria and forcing Putin's hand. Putin said it over and over. Then he acted.
My Bias is basicly for Crimea, not Russia in General. I think Putin is a semi-dictator and I certainly don't agree with most of how he does things, but he does get things done. The results are there.
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MH-17...
Pappy used to say it don't matter who done it, it only matters who's gonna pay for it. :coffeeread:
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They didn't, so clearly it's better already.
I hope you are more observant of 'clues' around you when learning to fly ..
It'd be better if Ukraine wasn't attacking the eastern breakaway regions still. :whist11:
Ah, I see you 'read' the daily updates from military observers in Ukraine with your usual open mind ....IF Kiev was 'attacking' the 'separatists' - why is Ukraine getting 'smaller' ?
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They didn't, so clearly it's better already.
I hope you are more observant of 'clues' around you when learning to fly ..
It'd be better if Ukraine wasn't attacking the eastern breakaway regions still. :whist11:
Ah, I see you 'read' the daily updates from military observers in Ukraine with your usual open mind ....IF Kiev was 'attacking' the 'separatists' - why is Ukraine getting 'smaller' ?
Mark
Do not fall for the trick question from the professor of deception and obfuscation of the truth!
He is bored in Russia, where he is now ....... no action! :laugh:
PS: I am sure you know that, when somebody has nothing new to add to a conversation then he resorts in personal attacks!
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They didn't, so clearly it's better already.
I hope you are more observant of 'clues' around you when learning to fly ..
It'd be better if Ukraine wasn't attacking the eastern breakaway regions still. :whist11:
Ah, I see you 'read' the daily updates from military observers in Ukraine with your usual open mind ....IF Kiev was 'attacking' the 'separatists' - why is Ukraine getting 'smaller' ?
Mark
Do not fall for the trick question from the professor of deception and obfuscation of the truth!
He is bored in Russia, where he is now ....... no action! :laugh:
PS: I am sure you know that, when somebody has nothing new to add to a conversation then he resorts in personal attacks!
I fixed the quoted regions
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They didn't, so clearly it's better already.
I hope you are more observant of 'clues' around you when learning to fly ..
It'd be better if Ukraine wasn't attacking the eastern breakaway regions still. :whist11:
Ah, I see you 'read' the daily updates from military observers in Ukraine with your usual open mind ....IF Kiev was 'attacking' the 'separatists' - why is Ukraine getting 'smaller' ?
Fixed the quote.
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Written under a parosol on the beach..hard to see the code)
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Figured this was bound to happen.
Georgia ex-leader Saakashvili stripped of Ukraine's citizenship
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40738193
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Figured this was bound to happen.
Georgia ex-leader Saakashvili stripped of Ukraine's citizenship
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40738193
It seem he had formed his own party and was planning to for elected office in the Ukraine. I seem to remember you were thinking he would get into trouble with corruption not run for office to fight it.
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Figured this was bound to happen.
Georgia ex-leader Saakashvili stripped of Ukraine's citizenship
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40738193
It seem he had formed his own party and was planning to for elected office in the Ukraine. I seem to remember you were thinking he would get into trouble with corruption not run for office to fight it.
He was governor of Odessa, couldn't get the job done and quit.
There's always someone who says they will fight corruption in Ukraine, but little is ever accomplished.
Ukrainians should be governed by Ukrainians. There's too many foreigners calling the shots already.
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Figured this was bound to happen.
Georgia ex-leader Saakashvili stripped of Ukraine's citizenship
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40738193
It seem he had formed his own party and was planning to for elected office in the Ukraine. I seem to remember you were thinking he would get into trouble with corruption not run for office to fight it.
He was governor of Odessa, couldn't get the job done and quit.
There's always someone who says they will fight corruption in Ukraine, but little is ever accomplished.
Ukrainians should be governed by Ukrainians. There's too many foreigners calling the shots already.
Ukraine is bankrupt and dependent on money from the west. Do you ever see them being solvent? It's in their DNA to steal all the money we give them. I mean the politicians and the oligarchs.
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He was governor of Odessa, couldn't get the job done and quit.
There's always someone who says they will fight corruption in Ukraine, but little is ever accomplished.
Ukrainians should be governed by Ukrainians. There's too many foreigners calling the shots already.
Isn't THAT the truth...
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As we have seen before, in Ukraine, fighting corruption is a euphemism that really means 'closing down your corruption and replacing it with mine.
The last leader in Ukraine who was doing anything about the structural issues that enable fiefdom that are the head of the problem was Yanukovych who was trying to reduce the power of the oligarchic clans. Until their influence is removed then nothing can be done to seriously deal with plague of theft from the people.
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US firm to supply 700,000 tons of heating coal to Ukraine
https://www.Kievpost.com/business/us-firm-supply-700000-tons-heating-coal-ukraine.html
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The last leader in Ukraine who was doing anything about the structural issues that enable fiefdom that are the head of the problem was Yanukovych who was trying to reduce the power of the oligarchic clans. Until their influence is removed then nothing can be done to seriously deal with plague of theft from the people.
Utter twaddle - you are just hoping to up the post count ?
His own Political Party ( Party of Regions ) disowned him for: ""strongly condemn[ed] the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."
Why are you making stuff up ?
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US firm to supply 700,000 tons of heating coal to Ukraine
https://www.Kievpost.com/business/us-firm-supply-700000-tons-heating-coal-ukraine.html
Aha, its again about the money.. That coal has to be cheaper than the locally produced coal in say, Donbass?
From the article:
700.000 tons of coal at $113 / tonne.
Still, Ukraine's demand is a bit higher:
Table 1: Ukrainian Coal Output, 2010-14 (in tons)
2010: 75.2
2011: 81.8
2012: 85.9
2013: 83.7
2014: 83.0 (projected)
https://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/06/09/king-coal-and-the-future-of-the-ukrainian-donbas/
At a price of .....
DPR President Alexander Zaharchenko was not satisfied with the price of 50 USD per tonne - significantly cheaper than coal imported from abroad.
https://theblacksea.eu/donbass/
Whahaha... not funny.
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DPR President Alexander Zaharchenko was not satisfied with the price of 50 USD per tonne - significantly cheaper than coal imported from abroad.
But then Kiev would be funding the very people it is at war with, no? Better to overpay for US coal which lines the pocket of a US politician (and a few in Ukraine I imagine) and then allows us to sell them advanced weapons.
Updated - See? Much better option. Now Ukraine has the most advanced simulation training centers in Europe.
https://uawire.org/news/us-provided-22-million-to-military-center-near-Lvov (https://uawire.org/news/us-provided-22-million-to-military-center-near-Lvov)
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UKRAINE READY TO FIGHT RUSSIA IN COURT OVER FIRST LAND LINK TO ANNEXED CRIMEA
http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-ready-fight-russia-court-over-crimea-bridge-645342
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UKRAINE READY TO FIGHT RUSSIA IN COURT OVER FIRST LAND LINK TO ANNEXED CRIMEA
http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-ready-fight-russia-court-over-crimea-bridge-645342
Umm... in what court exactly?
Russian? Good luck with that.
The ICC ? Russia never recognised it, neither did the USA.
Ukrainian? More like someone shouting in an empty desert.
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UKRAINE READY TO FIGHT RUSSIA IN COURT OVER FIRST LAND LINK TO ANNEXED CRIMEA
http://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-ready-fight-russia-court-over-crimea-bridge-645342
Umm... in what court exactly?
Russian? Good luck with that.
The ICC ? Russia never recognised it, neither did the USA.
Ukrainian? More like someone shouting in an empty desert.
:-X tiphat :Zzzzsleep:
It is the dog days and editors need copy - even if it BS
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The folks in Kiev really should rethink their anti Russian strategy.
Ukraine boosts reverse gas supplies from Europe by 240%
https://www.rt.com/business/398345-ukraine-reverse-gas-russia-europe/
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I suspect this was too much greed, even for Ukraine.
https://www.Kievpost.com/technology/police-find-illegal-bitcoin-farm-ukrainian-state-institute.html
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The folks in Kiev really should rethink their anti Russian strategy.
Ukraine boosts reverse gas supplies from Europe by 240%
https://www.rt.com/business/398345-ukraine-reverse-gas-russia-europe/
This is just more RT news propaganda. There is a strategy to what Kiev is doing and it is not good for Russia other wise it would not be in RT news. Russia would not give the Ukraine a short contract and Kiev is paying extra now to be able to buy gas else where in future. Ukraine losses transit fee which in comparison small to Russia's loses of gas sales to Ukraine which is large. Once the well is drilled it cost nothing to produce gas so the profit from the gas is very high.
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The folks in Kiev really should rethink their anti Russian strategy.
Ukraine boosts reverse gas supplies from Europe by 240%
https://www.rt.com/business/398345-ukraine-reverse-gas-russia-europe/
This is just more RT news propaganda. There is a strategy to what Kiev is doing and it is not good for Russia other wise it would not be in RT news. Russia would not give the Ukraine a short contract and Kiev is paying extra now to be able to buy gas else where in future. Ukraine losses transit fee which in comparison small to Russia's loses of gas sales to Ukraine which is large. Once the well is drilled it cost nothing to produce gas so the profit from the gas is very high.
Texan, Russia really does not need the Ukrainian gas market, mainly because in order for Russia to make a profit they need to get paid.
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Texan, Russia really does not need the Ukrainian gas market, mainly because in order for Russia to make a profit they need to get paid.
That's patent nonsense
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The folks in Kiev really should rethink their anti Russian strategy.
Ukraine boosts reverse gas supplies from Europe by 240%
https://www.rt.com/business/398345-ukraine-reverse-gas-russia-europe/
This is just more RT news propaganda. There is a strategy to what Kiev is doing and it is not good for Russia other wise it would not be in RT news. Russia would not give the Ukraine a short contract and Kiev is paying extra now to be able to buy gas else where in future. Ukraine losses transit fee which in comparison small to Russia's loses of gas sales to Ukraine which is large. Once the well is drilled it cost nothing to produce gas so the profit from the gas is very high.
Texan, Russia really does not need the Ukrainian gas market, mainly because in order for Russia to make a profit they need to get paid.
Word. :ROFL:
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The folks in Kiev really should rethink their anti Russian strategy.
Ukraine boosts reverse gas supplies from Europe by 240%
https://www.rt.com/business/398345-ukraine-reverse-gas-russia-europe/
This is just more RT news propaganda. There is a strategy to what Kiev is doing and it is not good for Russia other wise it would not be in RT news. Russia would not give the Ukraine a short contract and Kiev is paying extra now to be able to buy gas else where in future. Ukraine losses transit fee which in comparison small to Russia's loses of gas sales to Ukraine which is large. Once the well is drilled it cost nothing to produce gas so the profit from the gas is very high.
Texan, Russia really does not need the Ukrainian gas market, mainly because in order for Russia to make a profit they need to get paid.
Not only that, but Ukraine buys gas from Europe now, guess who Europe buys from :D
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Many people, including Ukrainians do not realise that Ukraine is now buying Russian gas at higher prices than ever Russia charged.
Ukraine is now buying, from Russia, Ukrainian coal that the Kiev regime refuses to buy from Donbass. And, of course, at a higher price.
In both cases Russia profits.
Ukraine is poor enough that it can not afford to support the stupidity of the Kiev and regime and the corrupt system it supports.
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Bad decisions: how to build the poorest country in Europe
https://voxukraine.org/longreads/poor-country/index_en.html
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Russia’s illegal Crimean Bridge construction will cost Ukraine (
https://www.Kievpost.com/ukraine-politics/russias-illegal-crimean-bridge-construction-will-cost-ukraine-video.html
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Many people, including Ukrainians do not realise that Ukraine is now buying Russian gas at higher prices than ever Russia charged.
Ukraine is now buying, from Russia, Ukrainian coal that the Kiev regime refuses to buy from Donbass. And, of course, at a higher price.
In both cases Russia profits.
Ukraine is poor enough that it can not afford to support the stupidity of the Kiev and regime and the corrupt system it supports.
The other side of the story. Russia can not use gas as a weapon against Ukraine any longer. Ukraine pays only about 1 per cent more than they would have to have this large degree of freedom.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timdaiss/2016/11/27/ukraine-celebration-one-year-without-russian-gas/#7c4d153762f4
Donbas become more isolated all the time. It population continues to decline. It birth/death ratio is the worse in anywhere Europe or the industrialized world. It mean population age continues to climb. My girl's mother stays in Donbas to care for her parents. When they die she will leave. This is so very common in that area. She has been hoping to sell her real estate but it does not look good.
As a state company in Donbas the coal mines will likely not receive the funds they need to be maintained. 5 years from now they will likely produce less coal and be more financially dependent on Russia. Yes there is corruption in Ukraine but it is nothing compared to Donbas.
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Earlier in the spring I understood in Kiev from some one origionaly who came from the Donbass that the 'war' was an outright attempt by one ogliarch to upsurp another. From one thing to the next Russia became embroiled but the initial battle was who controlled what assets in this region.
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Earlier in the spring I understood in Kiev from some one origionaly who came from the Donbass that the 'war' was an outright attempt by one ogliarch to upsurp another. From one thing to the next Russia became embroiled but the initial battle was who controlled what assets in this region.
Yes, that is exactly correct. It wasn't even between oligarchs. It was some Western Ukrainian politicians who came and confiscated (i.e., stole) mines that had been stolen previously by Akhmetov.
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UKRAINE'S NEW TANK CAN TAKE ON RUSSIA'S BEST—BUT KIEV CAN'T AFFORD IT
http://www.newsweek.com/ukraines-new-tank-can-take-russias-best-kiev-cant-afford-it-665972
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This guy was appointed on September 22 and shot dead on the 28th
Ukrainian City Councilor Shot Dead After Interview On Corruption
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-councilor-cherkasy-shot-dead-corruption-interview-binusov/28764298.html
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‘Cries from Neanderthal cave’: Czech Republic & Ukraine trade jibes over Crimea
https://www.rt.com/news/406521-neanderthal-czech-ukraine-crimea/
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‘Cries from Neanderthal cave’: Czech Republic & Ukraine trade jibes over Crimea
https://www.rt.com/news/406521-neanderthal-czech-ukraine-crimea/
Not either country official position, just two men arguing over a mute point. Russia is not ever planning to ever pay the Ukraine anything. So the real Neanderthal is anybody who would waste time argue about this dead subject.
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just two men arguing over a mute point.
Perhaps they are mime artists?
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Will be very difficult time for those living in Lugansk without any money available.
With the unrest taking place at the moment I wonder if Kiev will try an offensive attack to take control?
Ukraine Def. Ministry: All cash from Lugansk withdrawn to RussiaRead more on UNIAN:
https://www.unian.info/m/war/2259256-ukraine-def-ministry-all-cash-from-Lugansk-withdrawn-to-russia.html
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There's been very little action over the past few months, but the calm might be ending.
Five Ukraine troops die in heavy fighting with Lugansk rebels
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42108007
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Open-source investigators identify two Russian regular officers fighting in Donbas
https://www.Kievpost.com/ukraine-politics/open-source-investigators-identify-two-russian-regular-officers-fighting-donbas.html
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Blogger says Ukraine retakes another village in Donbas, ATO HQ reports on "improving tactical positions"Read more on UNIAN:
https://www.unian.info/m/war/2273644-blogger-says-ukraine-retakes-another-village-in-donbas-ato-hq-reports-on-improving-tactical-positions.html
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Escalation in Donbas: 30 attacks on Ukraine troops, 3 WIA's in last dayRead more on UNIAN:
https://www.unian.info/m/war/2276106-escalation-in-donbas-30-attacks-on-ukraine-troops-3-wias-in-last-day.html
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Is this a "game changer"?
http://www.newsweek.com/america-sends-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missiles-how-will-putin-respond-905776
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missile-system-2018-4
Anyhow, another "win-win" situation for defense contractors. :thumbsup: :chuckle:
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Is this a "game changer"?
http://www.newsweek.com/america-sends-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missiles-how-will-putin-respond-905776
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missile-system-2018-4
Anyhow, another "win-win" situation for defense contractors. :thumbsup: :chuckle:
No it is not a game changer.
Some 'journalists' do not understand the nature of this 'war'. I can only feel pity for those trapped and helpless in this war zone.
Yes there are some happy defense contractors.
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Is this a "game changer"?
http://www.newsweek.com/america-sends-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missiles-how-will-putin-respond-905776
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missile-system-2018-4
Anyhow, another "win-win" situation for defense contractors. :thumbsup: :chuckle:
No it is not a game changer.
Some 'journalists' do not understand the nature of this 'war'. I can only feel pity for those trapped and helpless in this war zone.
Yes there are some happy defense contractors.
Yes but that war zone has its benefits , well it must have? As every Ukrainian women searching a foreign husband in the war zone has an old phone.. no food... no internet... and of course wait for it!! No Passport...
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Is this a "game changer"?
http://www.newsweek.com/america-sends-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missiles-how-will-putin-respond-905776
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missile-system-2018-4
Anyhow, another "win-win" situation for defense contractors. :thumbsup: :chuckle:
No it is not a game changer.
Some 'journalists' do not understand the nature of this 'war'. I can only feel pity for those trapped and helpless in this war zone.
Yes there are some happy defense contractors.
Yes but that war zone has its benefits , well it must have? As every Ukrainian women searching a foreign husband in the war zone has an old phone.. no food... no internet... and of course wait for it!! No Passport...
There’s all KINDS of benefits to war! I even have some students with family members in the “war zone”. Not a lot actually going on there except Ukrainians occasionally trying to kill people and also preventing people from visiting their family members!
.
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There’s all KINDS of benefits to war! I even have some students with family members in the “war zone”. Not a lot actually going on there except Ukrainians occasionally trying to kill people and also preventing people from visiting their family members!
.
Given the OSCE website that covers the Minsk 2 agreed observers, reports - just as often - shells coming from the rebel side - you just misrepresented the facts on the ground....
I am sure there are LOTS of sad goings on being committed by both sides in the 'interests of security' ....
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https://maritime-executive.com/article/ukraine-and-russia-face-off-over-fishing-boat#gs.yZwB8qA
One would think and hope that some captains would be intelligent enough to operate outside a military border.
On the other side is perhaps Russia provoking Ukraine?
Or did Ukraine capture a 'vessel' in Russian or International waters?
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https://maritime-executive.com/article/ukraine-and-russia-face-off-over-fishing-boat#gs.yZwB8qA
One would think and hope that some captains would be intelligent enough to operate outside a military border.
On the other side is perhaps Russia provoking Ukraine?
Or did Ukraine capture a 'vessel' in Russian or International waters?
The arrest is actually because the papers carried by the ship were 'incorrect', that is they showed registration at Kerch, a port in Crimea. The Ukrainians say that the port is Ukrainian but has been closed by them and thus the documents are fake. This is not about where the ship was sailing but that the vessel was registered in Kerch but was flying a Russian flag. And yes, that is pretty bogus. The prosecuting authority is the Ukrainian prosecutor's office for Crimea
The Russians have pulled in a Ukrainian vessel (on the 4th May) for activities within the Russian Exclusive Economic Zone. Now, that, on the part of the Ukrainian master was a bit silly because that was about location and thus could easily have been prevented.
This from a Ukrainian site gives the story for both vessels. It can be seen how the Ukrainians have to twist themselves in knots to make the justification for the arrest of the Russian vessel: https://www.unian.info/politics/10119596-fsb-says-ukrainian-fishing-vessel-yamk-0041-seized.html
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https://maritime-executive.com/article/ukraine-and-russia-face-off-over-fishing-boat#gs.yZwB8qA
One would think and hope that some captains would be intelligent enough to operate outside a military border.
On the other side is perhaps Russia provoking Ukraine?
Or did Ukraine capture a 'vessel' in Russian or International waters?
The arrest is actually because the papers carried by the ship were 'incorrect', that is they showed registration at Kerch, a port in Crimea. The Ukrainians say that the port is Ukrainian but has been closed by them and thus the documents are fake. This is not about where the ship was sailing but that the vessel was registered in Kerch but was flying a Russian flag. And yes, that is pretty bogus. The prosecuting authority is the Ukrainian prosecutor's office for Crimea
The Russians have pulled in a Ukrainian vessel (on the 4th May) for activities within the Russian Exclusive Economic Zone. Now, that, on the part of the Ukrainian master was a bit silly because that was about location and thus could easily have been prevented.
This from a Ukrainian site gives the story for both vessels. It can be seen how the Ukrainians have to twist themselves in knots to make the justification for the arrest of the Russian vessel: https://www.unian.info/politics/10119596-fsb-says-ukrainian-fishing-vessel-yamk-0041-seized.html
Just read both posts and some more information. Basically the martime border is presently undefined. Russia is asserting that it solely controls the Kerch Strait. It is worth noting that numerous UN votes/declarations have declared that the Strait is not to be touched or altered and free passage for all vessels.
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Of course the border is 'undefined' but it is a known unknown. Given what we know, it would seem that the Ukrainians acted against the spirit of those UN declarations - there was no reason to pull over the vessel apart from it carrying the 'wrong' flag in a situation where it was reasonable that the vessel would be flying the flag it did. Every vessel from Kerch is flying the Russian flag and, if registered at Kerch, is on the Russian registry, so this was a deliberate provocation.
On the other hand, the Russians pulled over the Ukrainian vessel for what seems likely to be a genuine issue - fishing in an area for which it did not have a permit. One might argue that the Russians should let the Ukrainian vessel get away with it and, perhaps, absent the Ukrainian silliness a few days earlier, that might have happened. However, if the vessel did not have a permit to fish in the area then pulling it in was justifiable.
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Andrewfi seems to be confused as to what is de jure and de facto
The Kremlin chose to send in GRU operatives to wrest control of a region that was majority ethnically supportive. That region is still recognised by most nations of the world as being part of ..... Ukraine
I'm writing from a place where any letter from outside Turkey will not get delivered unless it says Mersin 10, Turkey - yet it is Cyprus.
Such games have been going on for over 50 years ...
Can you fly from outside Russia direct to Simferopol's lovely new airport ?
I suspect lot's of folks will be using Krasnodar or Rostov to get to Crimea.... Thank goodness for the bridge(s)..
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Is this a "game changer"?
http://www.newsweek.com/america-sends-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missiles-how-will-putin-respond-905776
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ukraine-javelin-anti-tank-missile-system-2018-4
Anyhow, another "win-win" situation for defense contractors. :thumbsup: :chuckle:
No it is not a game changer.
Some 'journalists' do not understand the nature of this 'war'. I can only feel pity for those trapped and helpless in this war zone.
Yes there are some happy defense contractors.
Yes but that war zone has its benefits , well it must have? As every Ukrainian women searching a foreign husband in the war zone has an old phone.. no food... no internet... and of course wait for it!! No Passport...
https://j4l.com/user_525865.love
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moby, go and re-read what I wrote. You will see that I referred to 'known unknowns'. this is information where we do not know the detail but we know the situation. In this case, even if Ukrainian seafarers do not themselves recognise that Russia is now the controlling power of the area in which they are sailing they sure as shit should know that Russia does and thus a sensible captain or helmsman will either avoid fishing in areas controlled by Russia or make sure they have the correct documentation.
In the case of the Kerch ship impounded by the Ukrainians, the ship carried the only documentation that a ship sailing from that port could carry. Not even Ukraine recognises the port as being Ukrainian - they maintain a fiction of the port being closed. The master of the Russian vessel had done all that could be done in the situation. The Ukrainians chose to make a provocation, given that there are many vessels registered in Kerch.
The majority of your words are irrelevant invention, you must be very bored at the moment. Have you run out of things to do, or inheritance?
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moby, go and re-read what I wrote. You will see that I referred to 'known unknowns'. this is information where we do not know the detail but we know the situation. In this case, even if Ukrainian seafarers do not themselves recognise that Russia is now the controlling power of the area in which they are sailing they sure as shit should know that Russia does and thus a sensible captain or helmsman will either avoid fishing in areas controlled by Russia or make sure they have the correct documentation.
In the case of the Kerch ship impounded by the Ukrainians, the ship carried the only documentation that a ship sailing from that port could carry. Not even Ukraine recognises the port as being Ukrainian - they maintain a fiction of the port being closed. The master of the Russian vessel had done all that could be done in the situation. The Ukrainians chose to make a provocation, given that there are many vessels registered in Kerch.
The majority of your words are irrelevant invention, you must be very bored at the moment. Have you run out of things to do, or inheritance?
Poor andrewfi has Wiz' 'affliction' for making stuff up
First, there was my 'Alfonse modus operandi' and now I'm 'flush' due to some fictional 'inheritance' :chuckle: On the basis of those two fantasies - one has to wonder at andrewfi's ability to read any situation ...
My words were factual and you failed to deal with the point ... You really ARE confused between de facto ( we took it by force - and 'come and take it back') over de jure ( legally recognised status ) .... a UN recognised part of a state ....
HOW many nations supported Ukraine's resolutions at the UN ? 100:11 and 13:1 ( Russia - being the one)
Ukraine had every right - as far as de jure is applicable ... Hardly, 'provocation' ... it's de jure, their right.
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"I see no room for development there. Things are much better on the Ukrainian side," she says. "It's great that in this country we have an opportunity to choose."
https://news.yahoo.com/separatist-conflict-eastern-ukraine-divides-young-voters-081430840.html
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"I see no room for development there. Things are much better on the Ukrainian side," she says. "It's great that in this country we have an opportunity to choose."
https://news.yahoo.com/separatist-conflict-eastern-ukraine-divides-young-voters-081430840.html
This is a Rubbish article full of propaganda.
This is a comment posted by a poster, on this article:
Julian18 hours ago
Even though it's become standard a fare it's odd to read an "article" that is so filled with propaganda. The people of Donbass who don't like to be shelled and killed by Ukrainian ultra "right sector" thugs are "toeing the separatist lines" while someone living in Kiev is enjoying liberty and opportunity.
Sadly the US has embraced regime change operations as the core of our foreign policy. If you look at what we did in Ukraine and what we are trying to do in Venezuela it's no wonder more and more of the world is choosing Russia and China to align with.
:nod: :8) tiphat
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Julian is as misguided as Wiz ion Ukraine
The UA Army is NOT made up of 'ultra right' supporters any more than all the resdidents of Donbas are 'terrorists' ..
What is amusing is this is the weekend when Ukrainians elect their latest President
The ballot paper is 'miles' long - so many candidates.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-47441345/ukraine-s-presidential-elections-five-things-to-know
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-47441345/ukraine-s-presidential-elections-five-things-to-know)
Perhaps the comedian will win ?
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Ukraine gets new 72 main battle tanks.
The T-72AMT is a result of the more extensive upgrades that the Ukrainian industry has developed, and it includes additional Nozh (Knife) explosive reactive armour (ERA) fitted to the turret in an arrow-head pattern and further cassettes laid flat on the sides of the hull. Used by Ukrainian forces fighting in the Donbass region, Nozh is composed of multiple linear shaped charge arrays rather than a more conventional ERA configuration with explosive material sandwiched between two plates. The rear of the turret can also be fitted with bar armour.
https://www.janes.com/article/93929/first-t-72amts-delivered-to-ukrainian-armed-forces
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Ukraine gets new 72 main battle tanks.
The T-72AMT is a result of the more extensive upgrades that the Ukrainian industry has developed, and it includes additional Nozh (Knife) explosive reactive armour (ERA) fitted to the turret in an arrow-head pattern and further cassettes laid flat on the sides of the hull. Used by Ukrainian forces fighting in the Donbass region, Nozh is composed of multiple linear shaped charge arrays rather than a more conventional ERA configuration with explosive material sandwiched between two plates. The rear of the turret can also be fitted with bar armour.
https://www.janes.com/article/93929/first-t-72amts-delivered-to-ukrainian-armed-forces
:thumbsup:
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Not new, but rather old, just getting another 'upgrade'.
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Holy Moly what an Obamnist Biden Brennan Eric Ciamarella UA-holocaust scandal can't for this to hit the fan...
https://mobile.twitter.com/GregRubini/status/1223001808827797516d
No wonder Trump sent Rudy to investigate.
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Ukraine gets new 72 main battle tanks.
https://www.janes.com/article/93929/first-t-72amts-delivered-to-ukrainian-armed-forces
Not new, but rather old, just getting another 'upgrade'.
As Andrew notes the T-72 has been around for a long time. Most likely some posters packages were not even in service when the first 72's were used.
Cuffy the link you noted above is not valid (working).
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Ukraine gets new 72 main battle tanks.
https://www.janes.com/article/93929/first-t-72amts-delivered-to-ukrainian-armed-forces
Not new, but rather old, just getting another 'upgrade'.
As Andrew notes the T-72 has been around for a long time. Most likely some posters packages were not even in service when the first 72's were used.
Cuffy the link you noted above is not valid (working).
Actually the link works but the page was removed.
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Did not take twitter long to erase that Greg Rubini link or account... Deep State protects its own.
Holy Moly what an Obamunist Biden Brennan Eric Ciamarella (Whistleblower) CIA-NSC UA-holocaust scandal... can't wait for this to hit the fan...
https://mobile.twitter.com/GregRubini/status/1223001808827797516d
No wonder Trump sent Rudy to investigate.
My source site actually took the time to create a sequence of imgur images that I inserted following.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CuQbbzD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JD2gHEt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oqEglg0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DEraRIM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wSdrlgR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LKgi0sh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zuG14aS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/58bULvj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/T7yfYwe.jpg)
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That ought to send the MSmobgina and WizzOff into MS-WIZZ-WANKKER-Wonderland ... ought to keep those two in a "circle posting" contest for the next month or two.
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Ahh The snipers were hired by Russia. This was to make the Ukraine government un stable to let Russia have a better change to acquire Crimea. Russia did not want any transition of power to be normal so they could claim the Ukraine government was illegal. The people shot were USA supporters and there was no reason for the USA to want them dead. On the other hand Russia had every reason to want them dead. All that is really know is there were hired by an out side power. Russia is the only power that motive nd ability. In the USA someone would write a book about it and make millions. We can not keep anything secrete if you really knew anything about the USA. In Russia if you try to write a book you end up dead. So no book deal. Just dead people.
I know all you guys are in love with Russia but they do their share of dirty things and cover them up real well. Then use RT news to blame the USA and our CIA. We would have to have a CIA force of a million agents to do half the stuff RT news and other Russian supported new agencies claims we do. When they get caught then they claim false flag thing to blamed the USA. It is just you guys will believe anything no matter how illogical it is.
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This is a very interesting article on the Maidan tragedy.
Testimonies by five Georgian ex-military members in Italian, Israeli, Macedonian and Russian media and their published depositions to Berkut lawyers for the Maidan massacre trial have also been ignored. They stated that their groups received weapons, payments, and orders to massacre both police and protesters from specific Maidan and Georgian politicians.
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/04/22/the-buried-maidan-massacre-and-its-misrepresentation-by-the-west/
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Texan, do you have any credible sources for your fantasy about Russia being behind the Maidan shootings?
There's plenty to suggest a different figure behind the curtain and I have not seen anything to suggest a Russian hand.
Don't forget that the goal of the shootings, whoever did them, was clearly to put pressure upon the legitimate government of the time whose president Yanukovych was trying to get a better deal from the EU at the time and who has been labelled by many as being 'pro-Russian'. Crimea, at the time, was not in play. You seem to have lost track of time here!
You may have forgotten that Russia had a lease on the port facilities in Crimea for their Black Sea fleet and there was no reason, before the coup took place, to think that would change. It is very rare for states to go to war for things that are already settled. Wars are usually over resources, no matter what other motivations are fed to the populace. War is much more costly than trade. Russia had a very favourable deal on the Sebastopol lease.
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There does not seem to be a thread regarding V. Zelensky as president of Ukraine. After a year in office the results seem average, but it appears with Covid 19 he has managed the ordeal better than other European nations.
A more interesting reality is I. Kolomoyskyi and his PrivatBank that was nationalized during 2016. Kolomoyski via various firms has been accused of asset stripping on a massive scale. A number of 'his' firms have declared bankruptcy including Aerosvit.
Kolomoyskyi media group hosted V. Zelensky show 'Servant of the People' and many believed in particular after a court ordered the return of PrivatBank's return to Kolomyskyi, that this would occur. In fact the government actively has fought this and in fact they seem likely to prevail.
But for Kolomoyskyi is now under investigation by a Grand Jury in Cleveland,* Ohio. This for investments made there. It can become more interesting because there seem to be potential ties to Biden. While the subject is far more complicated and all the details are beyond the scope of simple posting such as mine.
* Cleveland is sometimes referred to as The Mistake by the Lake. :chuckle:
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Ukraine made a promise to pay it medical people extra for working the crises which is kept under better control than Russia and was able to pay it medical people the promised money while Russia seems to not be able to pay the extra promised money to its medical staff. Maybe Putin's boast of being able to afford 25 dollars a barrel was not so real after all. Oil back up to almost 33 dollars today it does not look like much of any body in USA is going to go broke.
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From a news article I read recently.
Даёшь больше праздников.
Зеленский решил сделать исламские праздники государственными в Украине.
Речь идет о Курбан-байрам и Ураза-байрам. "Я хотел бы, чтобы каждый человек чувствовал себя полноценным гражданином, не забывая об истории и о традициях своего народа", - подчеркнул президент.
Madness.
:'(
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It translates as:
Give more holidays.
Zelensky decided to make Islamic holidays state in Ukraine.
We are talking about Kurban Bayram and Uraza Bayram. “I would like everyone to feel like a full-fledged citizen, not forgetting the history and traditions of their people,” the president emphasized.
Well, if they have EU aspirations, they best start singing Allah’s tune. :sick0012:
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Manny I'm not in favor of invasions such as London or Paris. However there are muslims in places like Kazan for centuries and it's their home. I dated a Crimean Tatar last year in Kiev. Nice woman and very liberal. Putin recognizes Russia's four historic religions.
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Manny I'm not in favor of invasions such as London or Paris. However there are muslims in places like Kazan for centuries and it's their home. I dated a Crimean Tatar last year in Kiev. Nice woman and very liberal. Putin recognizes Russia's four historic religions.
Many if not all Crimean Tatars are Muslims. And yes they are very normal people. Women dress sexy and men go without those long beards and awful clothes. Most even eat pig-meat (shaslick) and drink alcohol (mostly wine). Imagine that.
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Manny I'm not in favor of invasions such as London or Paris. However there are muslims in places like Kazan for centuries and it's their home. I dated a Crimean Tatar last year in Kiev. Nice woman and very liberal. Putin recognizes Russia's four historic religions.
Many if not all Crimean Tatars are Muslims. And yes they are very normal people. Women dress sexy and men go without those long beards and awful clothes. Most even eat pig-meat (shaslick) and drink alcohol (mostly wine). Imagine that.
Interesting that this is a thread about Ukraine and Markje is referring to Crimea :popcorn:
There are loads of countries that are ostensibly 'Muslim' with sexual women. If those with closed minds actually visited them, they'd have a clue ..
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That ought to send the MSmobgina and WizzOff into MS-WIZZ-WANKKER-Wonderland ... ought to keep those two in a "circle posting" contest for the next month or two.
Dear Cufflinks despite that for now you have gone quiet and not posting frequently anymore and all the nice Epithets/Name calling, you posted for me...... I would like to remind you ... that
A) THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS FIND THE WAY TO COME IN THE OPEN AND SHINE and thank you for your posts.... also take note that......
B) The date, you posted your above and all other comments regarding the USA actions in Ukraine..... during the cup against the country and its legit Government of Yanukovich, I happened to be on Holidays in Cyprus and I prefer to have fun than spending my time reading the boards.
[attachimg=1]
May I point out that on the list of names No 16, posted by Greg Rubini he missed the name of Geoffrey Pyatt,the US Ambassador in Ukraine, at the time and one of the main culprits for the US Coup against the legit Government of Yanukovich
Well I am on the floor laughing with the exposure made by the whistle blowers in your country!
The more I read the better understand what a criminal country is USA.
For your info in Nov 1973 ... CIA organised also the killing of innocent people in my country, Greece and brought snippers to help the Dictators in power to stop the students peaceful revolution. Twenty Five (25) innocent people outsight the Polytechnic University, were murdered by your snippers.
This Asshole, Geoffrey Pyatt after finishing with Ukraine was transferred and is the USA Ambassador in Greece and is destroying my country!
Simpletons like Texan live in their own world of ignorance!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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. . . all the nice Epithets/Name calling, .....
Simpletons like Texan live in their own world of ignorance!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
perhaps you meant . . . Simpletons like Wiz who live in there own world (of bigotry)
Really I would not laugh you are not funny.
:( :( :(
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Manny I'm not in favor of invasions such as London or Paris. However there are muslims in places like Kazan for centuries and it's their home. I dated a Crimean Tatar last year in Kiev. Nice woman and very liberal. Putin recognizes Russia's four historic religions.
Many if not all Crimean Tatars are Muslims. And yes they are very normal people. Women dress sexy and men go without those long beards and awful clothes. Most even eat pig-meat (shaslick) and drink alcohol (mostly wine). Imagine that.
When I visited Crimea years ago with a young lady and guide we had lunch at a Tatar restaurant, the hospitality and food were excellent!
In fact that meal and service were much better than what we had at the restaurant of a large Soviet style hotel.
I personally think the Tatar’s are better at hospitality then many Russians. Although there was a Russian restaurant owner I met who I liked, his Russian cook couldn’t make a proper steak, which is almost always a problem over there.
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It translates as:
Give more holidays.
Zelensky decided to make Islamic holidays state in Ukraine.
We are talking about Kurban Bayram and Uraza Bayram. “I would like everyone to feel like a full-fledged citizen, not forgetting the history and traditions of their people,” the president emphasized.
Well, if they have EU aspirations, they best start singing Allah’s tune. :sick0012:
I’m quite certain that Moscow and Russia in general acknowledge and respect Muslim tradition, I think you’re confusing what’s happened to London with simple respect towards a group of people in Ukraine who’ve been there a thousand years.
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Being Tatar means a specific ethnicity. The majority of Tartar's are Muslim and specifically Sunni, the Russian and Ukraine Tatar's tend to be more mellow and better educated than those from the sand nations in my albeit limited expierence.
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Being Tatar means a specific ethnicity. The majority of Tartar's are Muslim and specifically Sunni, the Russian and Ukraine Tatar's tend to be more mellow and better educated than those from the sand nations in my albeit limited expierence.
“experience”
Yes I concur.
Once had an Iranian girlfriend and they’re very secular and fun. Good times! :king:
(However Iranians are Shia and they do not have a history of blowing themselves up, that’s mostly a Wahabi/Sunni problem)
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(However Iranians are Shia and they do not have a history of blowing themselves up, that’s mostly a Wahabi/Sunni problem)
Given it was Hezbollah that kicked off the suicide concept, tat's an 'interesting' piece of revisionist history .. 1982 attacks on IDF in Lebanon, 1983 US marine Barracks bombings and on French Keepers :popcorn:
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Being Tatar means a specific ethnicity. The majority of Tartar's are Muslim and specifically Sunni, the Russian and Ukraine Tatar's tend to be more mellow and better educated than those from the sand nations in my albeit limited expierence.
“experience”
Very few of us are double D! (Dutch & Dyslexic)
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Being Tatar means a specific ethnicity. The majority of Tartar's are Muslim and specifically Sunni, the Russian and Ukraine Tatar's tend to be more mellow and better educated than those from the sand nations in my albeit limited expierence.
“experience”
Very few of us are double D! (Dutch & Dyslexic)
tiphat
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Well , Dutch facebook has exploded with virtiol about Zelensky today.
It seems he angered the Dutchies by creating a new law (must still be approved) to make 2 Muslim holy events national holidays. :coffeeread:
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It seems he angered the Dutchies by creating a new law (must still be approved) to make 2 Muslim holy events national holidays. :coffeeread:
Why do the Dutch care what happens in Ukraine?
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It seems he angered the Dutchies by creating a new law (must still be approved) to make 2 Muslim holy events national holidays. :coffeeread:
Why do the Dutch care what happens in Ukraine?
Three or so years ago there was a referendum in The Netherlands regarding potential membership (or to the public so presented) about joining the EU.
The public voted nee/nyet/no.
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Manny I'm not in favor of invasions such as London or Paris. However there are muslims in places like Kazan for centuries and it's their home. I dated a Crimean Tatar last year in Kiev. Nice woman and very liberal. Putin recognizes Russia's four historic religions.
Many if not all Crimean Tatars are Muslims. And yes they are very normal people. Women dress sexy and men go without those long beards and awful clothes. Most even eat pig-meat (shaslick) and drink alcohol (mostly wine). Imagine that.
Interesting that this is a thread about Ukraine and Markje is referring to Crimea :popcorn:
There are loads of countries that are ostensibly 'Muslim' with sexual women. If those with closed minds actually visited them, they'd have a clue ..
Loads of Muslim countries with sexual women? :ROFL:
You are an absolute rocket, try there’s a couple of countries, maximum. Head to the Middle East, Pakistan, Indonesia, Somalia etc and let me know how sexually liberated these women are? All just hanging out in their smalls drinking shots, looking for one night pickups with infidels :fighting0025:
Most Muslims would honour kill their own daughters if they got caught shagging a demented Irishman with an English accent.
FFS Moby, you gotta be king troll or a complete bampot :'(
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Loads of Muslim countries with sexual women? :ROFL:
Yup.. You've dated an Iranian woman, a Turkish one, Lebanese.. a RU lady from Kazan...? My wife is half something or other ( Uzbek/ Tajik )
Probably, not .. which is why the following is a hoot
You are an absolute rocket, try there’s a couple of countries, maximum. Head to the Middle East, Pakistan, Indonesia, Somalia etc and let me know how sexually liberated these women are? All just hanging out in their smalls drinking shots, looking for one night pickups with infidels
You've CLEARLY never skied in the Lebanese mountain resorts, seen Istanbul rocking at night and are FAR too young to remember Iranian girls prior to the fall of the Shah. IF you knew anything about Muslim women, you'd know many are expected to perform certain acts, many western girls might chose not to...
Most Muslims would honour kill their own daughters if they got caught shagging a demented Irishman with an English accent.
Well, then I'd be a wanted man 3 times over and SC's dad has been buried nearly forty years and she is not a follower of the Prophet, choosing to follow her Mum's creed, so she and I are damned many times over :ROFL:
FFS Moby, you gotta be king troll or a complete bampot :'(
Funny, I was thinking the same, given the thread title, your 'experience' and my 'English accent' :popcorn:
Never stop, Rosco... pure gold ... honestly.. I like your posts ..
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All muslim women from 3rd world shit holes, who worship a barbaric sky wizard, are actually really sexually open......
Moby, its like Groundhog Day with you. Yes there are women out there from Lebanon or Iran who live in the west, smoke, drink and have casual sex with strangers. I'm sure it happens.
The thing is you see, this is the exception rather than the rule. We're back to Moby having a different experience with a muslim girl therefore he argues that its actually quite normal to find smoking, drinking, scantily clad, exhibitionist women seeking casual sex with western men in Jakarta, Karachi, Riyadh and Cairo. You do see how stupid you sound?
Stop lying and stop pretending that life is how you tell it.
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While entertaing to read of ms's knowledge of Muslim women, the posts have very little to do with Ukraine.
Since we all need a dose of the ms experience virus perhaps a new thread on the subject; ms and his harem, ms masturbating to his Muslim knowledge, or ms and Muslim's. We already have some good material.
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While entertaing to read of ms's knowledge of Muslim women, the posts have very little to do with Ukraine.
Since we all need a dose of the ms experience virus perhaps a new thread on the subject; ms and his harem, ms masturbating to his Muslim knowledge, or ms and Muslim's. We already have some good material.[/b]
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Or get some more advanced software and block the virus!
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While entertaing to read of ms's knowledge of Muslim women, the posts have very little to do with Ukraine.
Since we all need a dose of the ms experience virus perhaps a new thread on the subject; ms and his harem, ms masturbating to his Muslim knowledge, or ms and Muslim's. We already have some good material.[/b]
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Or get some more advanced software and block the virus!
:chuckle:
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Ukraine now the second largest grain exporter in the world only behind the USA. Ukraine will repave a record number of roads this summer. Money they did not spend on fighting the virus because of a weaker break out than expected will be used for this in addition to normal roads funds which was all ready going to be a record repave. Driving across Ukraine should start to get better.
Above was written by me from other news post this last week or so. Below is this morning's news.
South Korea’s Caris has signed a 3-year, $850 million deal with Dnipro’s Yuzhmash to produce 5,000 electric buses and 7,800 charging stations, the Ukrainian machine building plant reports on Facebook. The two companies agreed to localize production in Dnipro, to exchange licensing agreements, and to jointly promote exports of Dnipro-made equipment to the EU. Noting that Caris already is building plastic highway guardrails in Ukraine, Caris Chairman Yu Chhol said of the new venture: “We are very happy to continue cooperation with Ukraine.”
Norway’s NBT continues planning for a €1.2 billion project in Zaporizhia Oblast that could be Europe’s largest onshore wind farm. Designed to generate 792MW, the Zophia farm would place 160 turbines along a 39 km line from Kyryliv to Yakymiv, to catch winds blowing north from the Sea of Azov. With financing arranged by JPMorgan and contracting by China’s SET, NBT hopes to start construction this fall.
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Everyday there is good and positive news happening in Ukraine. Todays news show Ukraine now has a trade surplus instead of deficit it has has for many years.
With imports falling faster than exports, Ukraine recorded a $531 million trade surplus for January-September, compared to a $4.2 billion deficit during the same nine months last year.
🔵 For services, IT helped save the day as Ukraine’s balance of trade in this area showed a $4.4 billion surplus, reports the State Statistics Service. Compared to the first three quarters of last year, exports of services dropped by 12% to $8.15 billion, while imports fell by 26.5% to $3.7 billion.
🔵 For goods, China saved the day by increasing its purchases of Ukrainian goods by 86%, to $4.8 billion, and cutting its imports by 12%, to $5.8 billion. Overall, Ukraine’s deficit of foreign trade in goods fell to $2.9 billion, less than half the level for the first three quarters of last year, $7.2 billion. So far, Ukraine’s exports of goods are down 5.6%, to $35 billion. Imports of goods are down 14%, to $38 billion.
🔵 Alexander Lukashenko, the self-appointed President of Belarus threatened on Friday to cut off trade with Ukraine, reports BelTA, the state news agency. “You watch out because we could shut the border for goods coming from the Ukrainian territory,” he said, addressing Ukraine, which counts Belarus as its fourth largest trading partner nation. “And then you won’t be able to supply products to our market, you won't even be able to process Ukrainian products in Belarus before supplying them to other markets, primarily the Eurasian one,” he said, referring to Ukraine’s transfer trade with Russia. Since declaring himself the winner last August of elections widely dismissed as fraudulent, Lukashenko has kept power through “A Reign of Terror,” The New York Times reported yesterday from Minsk.
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Everyday there is good and positive news happening in Ukraine. Todays news show Ukraine now has a trade surplus instead of deficit it has has for many years.
With imports falling faster than exports, Ukraine recorded a $531 million trade surplus for January-September, compared to a $4.2 billion deficit during the same nine months last year.
🔵 For services, IT helped save the day as Ukraine’s balance of trade in this area showed a $4.4 billion surplus, reports the State Statistics Service. Compared to the first three quarters of last year, exports of services dropped by 12% to $8.15 billion, while imports fell by 26.5% to $3.7 billion.
🔵 For goods, China saved the day by increasing its purchases of Ukrainian goods by 86%, to $4.8 billion, and cutting its imports by 12%, to $5.8 billion. Overall, Ukraine’s deficit of foreign trade in goods fell to $2.9 billion, less than half the level for the first three quarters of last year, $7.2 billion. So far, Ukraine’s exports of goods are down 5.6%, to $35 billion. Imports of goods are down 14%, to $38 billion.
🔵 Alexander Lukashenko, the self-appointed President of Belarus threatened on Friday to cut off trade with Ukraine, reports BelTA, the state news agency. “You watch out because we could shut the border for goods coming from the Ukrainian territory,” he said, addressing Ukraine, which counts Belarus as its fourth largest trading partner nation. “And then you won’t be able to supply products to our market, you won't even be able to process Ukrainian products in Belarus before supplying them to other markets, primarily the Eurasian one,” he said, referring to Ukraine’s transfer trade with Russia. Since declaring himself the winner last August of elections widely dismissed as fraudulent, Lukashenko has kept power through “A Reign of Terror,” The New York Times reported yesterday from Minsk.
The NY Times should focus on USA. Heads are going to roll once the extent of election fraud committed by Dominion is exposed.
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These are mostly so-called OpEd articles but in the pig picture there are common themes running through them. What some here do not understand that Russia has morally lost Ukraine.
Can diplomacy deter Vladimir Putin and avert a major war in Ukraine?
Russian and Western officials will hold a series of diplomatic meetings during the coming week in a bid to defuse mounting geopolitical tensions and avert the possibility of a major escalation in Vladimir Putin’s eight-year war against Ukraine. Talks will begin on January 10 with a meeting between senior US and Russian diplomats in Geneva. This will be followed by a session of the NATO-Russia Council in Brussels on January 12. The next day, OSCE members are scheduled to convene in Vienna.
Officially, these meetings will focus on a number of security demands presented in mid-December 2021 by Russia in the form of two draft treaties. Many of the clauses, such as the withdrawal of NATO forces from Central and Eastern Europe and formal guarantees that Ukraine will never join the alliance, are widely regarded as non-starters. However, Kremlin officials have insisted that the two draft treaties are “not a menu” and must be considered as a whole, with Putin promising a “military-technical response” if the West refuses to reduce its military presence in Central and Eastern Europe.
Looming over next week’s negotiations is the threat of a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine. Moscow began concentrating its military along the Ukrainian border in late 2021 and has reportedly assembled a vast invasion force including more than 100,000 troops and considerable support logistics capable of maintaining a major offensive.
This build-up has been accompanied by increasingly belligerent rhetoric and unsubstantiated allegations from Russian officials and the Kremlin-controlled state media. Putin and other senior figures have accused Ukraine of posing a growing security threat to Russia, while Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu has made absurd claims of an imminent US chemical weapons attack in eastern Ukraine.
Putin’s saber-rattling indicates Russian frustration over a lack of progress in the country’s ongoing campaign of hybrid hostilities against Ukraine. The conflict began in spring 2014, when Russia seized Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula and launched a proxy war in eastern Ukraine. However, Kremlin expectations of rapid victory were thwarted by unexpectedly strong Ukrainian resistance, leading to a bloody stalemate marked by sporadic fighting along a largely static 400km front line.
Since the end of major combat operations in February 2015, successive Ukrainian leaders have resisted Russian pressure to accept peace on Kremlin terms. Instead, the undeclared war between the two countries has dragged on with no end in sight, eroding Russian influence in Ukraine to historically unprecedented lows.
Despite these setbacks, Putin has made clear that he continues to regard the return of Ukraine to the Russian orbit as his number one foreign policy priority. The extent of Putin’s apparent obsession with Ukraine was laid bare in a remarkable July 2021 essay authored by the Russian leader that openly questioned the historical legitimacy of Ukrainian statehood and argued that “true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”
With the Kremlin determined to prevent the loss of Ukraine and demanding sweeping security guarantees that no Western leader could realistically provide, there appears to be little room for compromise during next week’s high-level meetings. Ahead of the coming negotiations, the Atlantic Council asked a range of experts whether diplomacy can still deter Putin and avert a major war in Ukraine.
Alexander Vershbow, Distinguished Fellow, Atlantic Council: President Putin has created the current crisis surrounding Ukraine in a bold effort to halt further NATO enlargement and roll back the changes in European security that have taken place since the end of the Cold War. Next week’s diplomatic trifecta will offer the first indication of whether Russian posturing and demands are aimed at engaging the West in serious negotiations, or whether Putin is just creating a pretext for military aggression.
Moscow’s undeclared war in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region has always been about more than Ukraine. The Donbas has been a major front in Putin’s larger hybrid war against the West, aimed at restoring Russia’s great power status and preventing the spread of democratic values that could bring down Putin’s authoritarian regime. Moscow hopes that by threatening further aggression against Ukraine, it can scare the West and Kiev into abandoning the goal of NATO membership and accepting Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe as part of a Yalta-style re-division of Europe.
The Russians are waging an aggressive information campaign to reinforce Putin’s revisionist history of the last 30 years in which Russia has been the victim of a US/NATO conspiracy to weaken Russia and deprive it of its rightful sphere of influence in the former Soviet space. With a mix of fictions and half-truths about NATO’s alleged military encirclement, Russia has sought to justify proposals that would not only halt NATO enlargement but also compel the US and its allies to withdraw their forces and weapons from the territory of members admitted since 1999. This includes the forces NATO has deployed in the East to defend against Russian aggression that is no longer unthinkable following its 2014 invasion of Ukraine.
Moscow knows that most of the elements of its draft treaties are non-starters and blatantly contradict principles Russia itself has accepted in dozens of post-Cold War agreements, including the right of nations to choose their security alliances. The US has said as much, while expressing openness to specific arms control and confidence-building measures in areas mentioned in the Russian texts. These would have to be on the basis of reciprocity (e.g., covering Russia’s already deployed INF Treaty-busting intermediate-range missiles, and not just hypothetical future US systems). If the talks gained traction, they could evolve into a wider discussion of how to rebuild European security architecture in the 21st century after the blows caused by Russia’s aggression.
The US has wisely insisted that, beyond next week’s initial round of talks, serious bargaining can only begin after Russia stands down its forces from Ukraine’s borders. In the meantime, the US and its allies will continue to do everything possible to deter Russia by raising the costs for aggression. Washington has rightfully said that all NATO allies and other concerned partners, including Finland and Sweden as well as Ukraine, must have a voice in the negotiations, based on the principle of “nothing about us without us.” That explains the three fora convening next week: US-Russia bilateral strategic stability talks, the NATO-Russia Council, and the all-inclusive OSCE Permanent Council.
The open question, however, is whether such limited arms control proposals are what Moscow is after. Russian diplomats have said their draft treaties are “not a menu” to pick and choose from but must be accepted in full. If they stick to that line in next week’s meetings, then a diplomatic solution may be unattainable.
Melinda Haring, Deputy Director, Eurasia Center, Atlantic Council: Lower your expectations. And then lower them some more. Russia has made numerous demands that are non-starters for Washington and the West, and there’s no magic diplomatic formula to convince Russia’s aging autocrat to stand down.
After the coming series of meetings, we may finally be able to answer the searing question: what are Putin’s plans? Watch Moscow’s demands in the meetings. If Russia insists that NATO cannot expand ever again, we will know that Moscow is preparing for war in Ukraine, since this is a red line for the West. However, if Russian diplomats show more flexibility on the NATO question, it means that Russia’s latest escalation was a mere shakedown, an attempt by Moscow to extract as much as possible.
Ben Hodges, Pershing Chair in Strategic Studies, Center for European Policy Analysis: Russia has already invaded Ukraine in 2014, so what we are talking about is averting the threat of a new offensive. Therefore, the start point for the Biden Administration, with clear public support and participation of our European allies, must be a total rejection of the Kremlin’s fairytale narrative of threats from NATO, their unacceptable “red lines,” and their demands of a return to Cold War status quo.
Furthermore, since the Kremlin has done nothing to earn anyone’s confidence in their willingness to comply with any agreement, we should demand, as a condition for any talks, that the Kremlin immediately stop hindering and threatening the OSCE’s Special Monitoring Mission in eastern Ukraine.
Finally, as a result of NATO foreign ministerial discussions, we should announce the development of a NATO strategy for the greater Black Sea region that includes our ally, Turkey. Repairing the relationship with Turkey has to be a priority. This is the ultimate leverage over the Kremlin, targeting their ability to use the Black Sea within the Montreux Convention.
We have the better hand. The combined economic, diplomatic and military power of all the members of NATO and the EU dwarf what the Kremlin brings. We should not be afraid to demonstrate our willingness to employ that power.
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Below are some other viewpoints. While I do not always agree they are worthy of consideration.
Miriam Kosmehl, Senior Expert Eastern Europe, Bertelsmann Stiftung, Germany: Achieving a reduction in tensions and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine’s border will depend not only on the actions of those present in next week’s meetings, but also on the resolve that Western leaders are able to signal to the Kremlin. At present, there are indications of emerging divisions over how best to react to the Russian threat. Some EU countries have already balked at the most stringent US proposals, such as cutting Russia off from the international SWIFT banking payment system and restricting Russian oil and gas imports.
In Moscow, it will not have gone unnoticed that while President Biden declares the US and its allies will “respond decisively” if Russia launches a further invasion of Ukraine, there is a lack of unity over exactly what this response should be. In the new German government, Foreign Minister Anna-Lena Baerbock and Robert Habeck, who now heads the Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action with direct responsibility for the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, differ from new Chancellor Olaf Scholz in their conclusions of what to do with Russia.
Meanwhile, in Italy, Prime Minister Mario Draghi’s remarks during his end of year press conference underlined the lack of Western consensus over Russia. Draghi stated that NATO has “different strategic priorities” than averting a Russian military escalation against Ukraine, and stressed that Europe is not in a position to do without Russian energy supplies. His stance is representative of those within NATO and the European Union who remain unwilling to work on creating greater leverage in order to deter Russia
Steven Pifer, William Perry Fellow, Stanford's Center for International Security and Cooperation: In mid-December, as the Russian military continued its build-up near Ukraine and President Putin demanded security guarantees, Moscow publicized draft US-Russian and NATO-Russian agreements encapsulating its demands. The drafts contain some elements that could offer a basis for negotiation, provided Western and Ukrainian security concerns receive reciprocal attention. But many provisions are plainly unacceptable and raise the question: does the Kremlin regard its drafts as an opening bid in a serious negotiating effort, or does it seek rejection in order to have another pretext for the military assault on Ukraine that it seems to be preparing?
US and Russian officials will meet on January 10. US officials presumably will provide some reaction to the Russian proposals, but Washington has made clear there can be no negotiation on European security issues or Ukraine without the Europeans and Ukrainians at the table. On January 12, the NATO-Russia Council will meet, where NATO allies can react to the draft NATO-Russia agreement. The following day, a meeting of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe will take place, the one format that will include all relevant parties, particularly the Ukrainians.
By the end of next week, Russian officials will have heard from their US and European counterparts that an end to NATO’s “open door” policy or withdrawal of all NATO forces from countries that joined the alliance after 1997 are non-starters, as Moscow surely understood before it tabled its drafts. Russian officials should also return home with an idea of where negotiations might be possible and of the complexity of such negotiations.
How the Kremlin then acts will go a long way toward answering the question of whether it wants a serious discussion on European security or simply intends to escalate its military conflict against Ukraine.
The above makes the most sense in my opinion. This is a long party with many dance cards so to speak.
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Russia Crisis: War fears mount as West rejects Putin’s ultimatum
A week of high-stakes diplomatic meetings has failed to defuse tensions in Eastern Europe or reduce the threat of a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine. Kremlin officials sat down with their US counterparts in Geneva on Monday and held subsequent meetings with NATO and OSCE representatives to address a list of security demands issued by Moscow in December 2021 in the form of two draft agreements. The flurry of diplomatic activity ended on a pessimistic note, with Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov declaring that talks had reached a “dead end” and questioning the purpose of further negotiations.
This underwhelming outcome came as no surprise. Both sides entered this week’s talks having already made clear that there was little room for compromise on key issues dominating the agenda. Russia’s main demand was for official guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO, but this was dismissed by members of the alliance as a “non-starter” due to NATO’s longstanding commitment to an open door membership policy.
Ukraine’s relationship with NATO dominated all three rounds of negotiations, with Kremlin officials repeatedly insisting that the country’s future status remained their top priority. “For us, it’s absolutely mandatory to make sure that Ukraine never, never, ever becomes a member of NATO,” commented Ryabkov on Monday. “We are fed up with loose talk, half-promises, misinterpretation, and different forms of negotiations behind closed doors. We need ironclad, waterproof, legally binding guarantees. Not assurances, guarantees.”
With this week’s series of meetings failing to produce any significant breakthroughs, it is not clear what now lies ahead. Russia is expected to clarify its position in the coming days once officials in Moscow have digested the details of recent discussions. Russia has emphasized that it has no desire to engage in endless talks and has promised an unspecified “military-technical response” if its demands for security guarantees are not met in a timely fashion.
As the international community awaits Russia’s reaction to this week's wholesale rejection of Putin’s security demands, all eyes will be on Ukraine. The current crisis began in November 2021 when details began to emerge of a major concentration of Russian military units in areas close to the country’s 2000km land border with Ukraine. This troop buildup has continued despite widespread international calls for deescalation and warnings that any fresh offensive would result in unprecedented sanctions measures being imposed on Russia.
Ukraine has been at the epicenter of a mounting confrontation between Russia and the West since early 2014, when Moscow responded to Ukraine’s pro-Western Euromaidan Revolution by invading and seizing control of the country’s Crimean peninsula in lightning military operation that caught the entire world by surprise. The takeover of Crimea has come to be seen as a watershed moment in modern European history and the starting point of a new Cold War.
Following the success of the Crimean campaign, Moscow attempted to orchestrate pro-Russian uprisings across southern and eastern Ukraine in a bid to partition the country and establish a new state dubbed “Novorossiya” (“New Russia”) by the Kremlin. However, these efforts were largely thwarted by unexpectedly strong local opposition, leaving Moscow in control of a comparatively small area of the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine on the border with Russia.
Fighting in eastern Ukraine reached a peak of intensity in summer 2014 before evolving into trench warfare along a static front line of around 400km. So far, the simmering conflict has claimed approximately 14,000 Ukrainian lives, with millions more displaced.
Attempts to broker a peace settlement have been hampered by Russia’s refusal to acknowledge its role in the conflict. In both Crimea and eastern Ukraine, the Kremlin has relied on hybrid military forces made up of conventional troops without identifying insignia fighting alongside mercenaries and local collaborators. Despite overwhelming evidence of Russian involvement, Moscow has maintained its policy of blanket denials.
Almost eight years since the onset of its attack on Ukraine, Moscow remains committed to forcing the country back into the Kremlin orbit. In summer 2021, Putin underlined his apparent obsession with the Ukrainian question by publishing a 5000-word essay arguing that Russians and Ukrainians are “one people” and questioning the legitimacy of Ukraine’s claims to statehood. “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia,” wrote Putin.
The above from The Atlantic Council. This gets more interesting as Russia is backed into a corner. I still suspect there will be no invasion.
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Russia Crisis: War fears mount as West rejects Putin’s ultimatum
A week of high-stakes diplomatic meetings has failed to defuse tensions in Eastern Europe or reduce the threat of a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine. Kremlin officials sat down with their US counterparts in Geneva on Monday and held subsequent meetings with NATO and OSCE representatives to address a list of security demands issued by Moscow in December 2021 in the form of two draft agreements. The flurry of diplomatic activity ended on a pessimistic note, with Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov declaring that talks had reached a “dead end” and questioning the purpose of further negotiations.
This underwhelming outcome came as no surprise. Both sides entered this week’s talks having already made clear that there was little room for compromise on key issues dominating the agenda. Russia’s main demand was for official guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO, but this was dismissed by members of the alliance as a “non-starter” due to NATO’s longstanding commitment to an open door membership policy.
Ukraine’s relationship with NATO dominated all three rounds of negotiations, with Kremlin officials repeatedly insisting that the country’s future status remained their top priority. “For us, it’s absolutely mandatory to make sure that Ukraine never, never, ever becomes a member of NATO,” commented Ryabkov on Monday. “We are fed up with loose talk, half-promises, misinterpretation, and different forms of negotiations behind closed doors. We need ironclad, waterproof, legally binding guarantees. Not assurances, guarantees.”
With this week’s series of meetings failing to produce any significant breakthroughs, it is not clear what now lies ahead. Russia is expected to clarify its position in the coming days once officials in Moscow have digested the details of recent discussions. Russia has emphasized that it has no desire to engage in endless talks and has promised an unspecified “military-technical response” if its demands for security guarantees are not met in a timely fashion.
As the international community awaits Russia’s reaction to this week's wholesale rejection of Putin’s security demands, all eyes will be on Ukraine. The current crisis began in November 2021 when details began to emerge of a major concentration of Russian military units in areas close to the country’s 2000km land border with Ukraine. This troop buildup has continued despite widespread international calls for deescalation and warnings that any fresh offensive would result in unprecedented sanctions measures being imposed on Russia.
Ukraine has been at the epicenter of a mounting confrontation between Russia and the West since early 2014, when Moscow responded to Ukraine’s pro-Western Euromaidan Revolution by invading and seizing control of the country’s Crimean peninsula in lightning military operation that caught the entire world by surprise. The takeover of Crimea has come to be seen as a watershed moment in modern European history and the starting point of a new Cold War.
Following the success of the Crimean campaign, Moscow attempted to orchestrate pro-Russian uprisings across southern and eastern Ukraine in a bid to partition the country and establish a new state dubbed “Novorossiya” (“New Russia”) by the Kremlin. However, these efforts were largely thwarted by unexpectedly strong local opposition, leaving Moscow in control of a comparatively small area of the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine on the border with Russia.
Fighting in eastern Ukraine reached a peak of intensity in summer 2014 before evolving into trench warfare along a static front line of around 400km. So far, the simmering conflict has claimed approximately 14,000 Ukrainian lives, with millions more displaced.
Attempts to broker a peace settlement have been hampered by Russia’s refusal to acknowledge its role in the conflict. In both Crimea and eastern Ukraine, the Kremlin has relied on hybrid military forces made up of conventional troops without identifying insignia fighting alongside mercenaries and local collaborators. Despite overwhelming evidence of Russian involvement, Moscow has maintained its policy of blanket denials.
Almost eight years since the onset of its attack on Ukraine, Moscow remains committed to forcing the country back into the Kremlin orbit. In summer 2021, Putin underlined his apparent obsession with the Ukrainian question by publishing a 5000-word essay arguing that Russians and Ukrainians are “one people” and questioning the legitimacy of Ukraine’s claims to statehood. “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia,” wrote Putin.
The above from The Atlantic Council. This gets more interesting as Russia is backed into a corner. I still suspect there will be no invasion.
American Zionist Propaganda in an effort to put the blame on Russia. These Zionist trolls are paid by A.I.P.A.C.K ( American Israel Public Affairs Committee) under instructions from their Special office in Haifa of the Israel Ministry of Defence......to make Jews looking like Angels........what a bloody waste of my free time! :snivel:
Stupid and mentally Brainwashed American's. I just wonder WHEN you are going to wake up and start clearing your country from these Zionist Crooks?
They suck your blood every minute of your life! and you are happy to obligate......
Take another look on these Dollar Notes. they suck you every minute of your life!
(https://slatelickupc.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/dollarbill.jpg)
You pay 2-3 % interest for the Top Note, every time "The Jewish FED" is issuing one, on your behalf... BUT when J.F.K, an Irishman, issued, on your behalf the bottom one, and you never had to pay any commissions to the Zionists he was killed .. Not by the Greek-American' immigrants, I can assure you!.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlKWqHVIMjOlmUJKhWzkOTxDi9D84KWF2d6A&usqp=CAU)
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Stupid and mentally Brainwashed American's. I just wonder WHEN you are going to wake up and start clearing your country from these Zionist Crooks?
You are such a racist bigot. Go ahead and support your Nazi friends in Russia. Right now, they have hypersonic missiles we cannot stop so now they want a war. So, we are on the verge of Russia starting a war to take a chunk of Europe on the pretexts that Ukraine is a security threat. Sounds just like Hitler to me. Yes, surely Russia is not a threat to anyone. Just keep reading RT news and believe in fairy tales.
Talk about stupid and brainwashed look into a mirror.
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Stupid and mentally Brainwashed American's. I just wonder WHEN you are going to wake up and start clearing your country from these Zionist Crooks?
You are such a racist bigot. Go ahead and support your Nazi friends in Russia. Right now, they have hypersonic missiles we cannot stop so now they want a war. So, we are on the verge of Russia starting a war to take a chunk of Europe on the pretexts that Ukraine is a security threat. Sounds just like Hitler to me. Yes, surely Russia is not a threat to anyone. Just keep reading RT news and believe in fairy tales.
Talk about stupid and brainwashed look into a mirror.
Oh dear Tex, more bullshit from you...
Nazi's are banned in Russia, and any found are very quickly dealt with...
Ukraine on the other hand is full of them, they celebrate Bandera and Hitler's birthday's among other things, even my large extended family and father in law and getting frightened and pissed off with them...
Open your eyes man and see Ukraine for what it really is these days..
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Stupid and mentally Brainwashed American's. I just wonder WHEN you are going to wake up and start clearing your country from these Zionist Crooks?
You are such a racist bigot. Go ahead and support your Nazi friends in Russia. Right now, they have hypersonic missiles we cannot stop so now they want a war. So, we are on the verge of Russia starting a war to take a chunk of Europe on the pretexts that Ukraine is a security threat. Sounds just like Hitler to me. Yes, surely Russia is not a threat to anyone. Just keep reading RT news and believe in fairy tales.
Talk about stupid and brainwashed look into a mirror.
It is not my fault that Mother Nature or your parents did not give you any intelligence to see the reality around your country, the globe, understand, read and learn and then express any opinions you may have.
For your information when I was visiting Lvov, Kiev Crimea, Odessa etc, meeting people and learning about their country, later visiting interesting places in Russia and meeting female flowers, you were looking the maps to see and find where are these countries located. Then you discovered the Mail Order sites and started visiting these dating sites were you were ogling beautiful Slavic women, thinking that you can order a delivery for your personal satisfaction like you do for your food or shopping in your country!
Over the years, that you are on this site I found out your simple mind and silly views. If I am, as you accuse me, a Racist and you cannot see beyond your nose, may I suggest you to read some American commentators who have few grams of brain and their views are similar to mine.
In another thread, somebody else posted an article of Paul Craig Roberts, who is an American Patriot Economist and Author, and has held a sub-cabinet office in the United States Federal Government giving out his sensible views. As I said before always read and learn from his sensible views and he is not an American neither a Russian Nazi.
By Refusing Security to Russia Washington Has Opened the Door to War (https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2022/01/13/by-refusing-security-to-russia-washington-has-opened-the-door-to-war-2/)
Unfortunately you don’t have the mental capacity and ability to understand his sensible comments, as you are brain washed by the Zionist owned US Media.
Before I forget Gipsy is not my brother, neither a relative but he lives in Russia and know more about the country than you know about your backside!
Search and look to see who owns all your Mass Media and learn about your Masters control of your country, who own them and brainwashing US people daily!
:dh: :coffeeread:
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Paul Craig Roberts is a lone voice in the Crack and Meth Hazed wilderness that has become Washington DC...
PCR has appeared many times on one of the last sources of online Truth in the USA Greg Hunter's USAwatchdog.com
While the Biden's have been selling out the USA to the CCP via Hunter and his thinly veiled influence peddling for BILLIONS on behalf of his father - Biden, Psaki and Blinken have clearly raided Hunter's Crack and Meth Stash and have been lighting up laughing at the Russians in the WH situation room... Not a good idea.
Meanwhile a very sober and determined Vladimir Vladimirovich has been steadily building up his nuclear Naval forces, submarines forces, nuclear missiles with hypersonic capabilities and building up his conventional land and air forces with similar capability - while the Biden Arrogant Ivy Leaguers has been cutting the US Defense Capability both by diverting funds to Woke Causes and by crushing morale with a blatant PRO TRANSSEXUAL-LGBTQ-BLM rainbow coalition agenda on all remaining US Troops, Airmen and Sailors who have not already retired or resigned in disgust.
Whereas the Russians patriotic determination to defend their Motherland is natural and stronger that ever.
I agree with PCR:
In other words, neither Washington nor its NATO arm heard the Russians tell them that military bases on Russia’s borders are unacceptable. As the Kremlin has found reason and diplomacy to be useless in dealing with the West, the prospect of building common European security is no longer in the picture. Russia has “no choice but to implement a policy of counter-containment and counter-intimidation.”
Having refused Russia security, the idiot West can expect war.
Update
Washington’s stupidity is unbelievable. Democrat senators want sanctions placed on Putin personally. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said: “The imposition of sanctions against the head of state and against the leader of Russia . . . is a measure that is comparable to severing relations.”
Clearly the Dems Neocon war mongers media water boys have decided it will take a new wag the dog scenario to salvage the corrupt incompetent Biden Administration and DNC enablers so they can steal 2022 and 2024 just like their 2020 Coup d'état. Unfortunately poking the Russian Bear like the USA has dominant first strike adversary elimination capability with a demoralized USA Military is crack fueled fantasy and delusion.
Curius that Putin and Xi planning a summit prior to the Beijing winter Olympics - shades of Sochi - as soon as the Sochi Olympics wrapped up the Forces Putin put in place "To Protect the Winter Olympics" decamped to Sevastopol and secured all of Crimea from a Soros NGO Demolunatics Neocons Orange Revolution near the Russians Nuclear Submarines Naval and Air Bases.
The Nuttless Nato Nincompoop EU purse puppies (Wizz and his fellow Euro Surrender Monkeys) - also enamored with turning their military forces into a large woke Rainbow coalition like the USA - could not surrender fast enough to the Russians - especially when Russia and China both are acutely aware of the utter depravity, lack of discipline, demoralized western forces could not even arrange an effective surrender ceremony - likely to Split UA right down the middle along the Dnipro River valley leaving the Chernobyl wilderness and wester Lvov Catholic regions to Poland and Hungary for cleanup duties.
While China and the CCP seize the moment to absorb Taiwan just like they did so successfully in Honk Kong while the tough talking UK and USA wankyanked themselves off smoking crack in Shanghai whorehouses.
The USA, UK, EU, NATO are far more terrified of Nukes than Russia and China - so engaging in a Crackhead fueled game of Nuclear Chicken with Russia and China simultaneously has ghastly potential for not ending well.
Summary:
I would convert all of my Cryptos to USDT and USDC stored on hard wallets (Ngrave Zero, Trezor, Nano etc) and sell all securities and hold cash/cash equivalents and Gold and Silver immediately. Since physical Gold and Silver currently in limited supply I like Canadian Sprott Physical Gold and Sprott Physical Silver shares - you accumulate their minimums they will even deliver physical precious metals to you however no storage fees or security costs holding their shares.
In the meantime, stock up on survival supplies, freeze dried foods and water storage and thyroid nuke preventatives like Nascent Iodine drops to counteract the radioactive clouds about to blanket Pan-Europa from Gibraltar to the Orkneys to the Black Sea...
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Cuffi..... I am surprised!
Obviously you wake up from a bad dream when you come to realise the actual international state of affairs....maybe by reading again the comments of Paul Craig Roberts!
Those Neoliberal fascists who are running your country.....do not understand that the Russians will have to protect their country again........from aggressive threatening Enemies. and of course have every right to do so........and I wonder, what are the benefits for USA and their NATO allies to fight Russia under any circumstances?
:coffeeread:
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Coincidentally:
https://usawatchdog.com/america-is-very-unstable-dr-paul-craig-roberts/
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Coincidentally:
https://usawatchdog.com/america-is-very-unstable-dr-paul-craig-roberts/
Great article Cuffy, thanks.
Quote
"Last week, the Russian government publicly said it thought the Biden Administration was having a “nervous breakdown,” which was intended as a huge insult."
Also like I said Germany is going to freeze. I said this in another thread and Gypsy came along and explained how it would harm the German economy if the Europeans go along with some sort of sanctions against Russia. What a mess and all due to gigantic arrogance in WA DC.
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Cuffi..... I am surprised!
Obviously you wake up from a bad dream when you come to realise the actual international state of affairs....maybe by reading again the comments of Paul Craig Roberts!
Those Neoliberal fascists who are running your country.....do not understand that the Russians will have to protect their country again........from aggressive threatening Enemies. and of course have every right to do so........and I wonder, what are the benefits for USA and their NATO allies to fight Russia under any circumstances?
:coffeeread:
Wizz what are you bloody banging on about "Neoliberal fascists who are running your country" - Who the bloody phooking 'ell do you think is running YOUR lovely spots of the Earth both UK and EU/Greek? The City of London Rothschild's of course - the Ultimate Zionists.
Rather than hurl Molotov cocktails at the USA Maidan style - research the City of London, the Rothschild's relationship to JP Morgan's London Bond dealing father - the folks who actually engineered the Fed in 1913 as part of their ongoing Zionist plot to rule the world by Subduing all the planet's Central Bank's including that of the last free people on the planet - the Moscow Rossiya and their independent Russian Banks and Central Bank not owned Fed style by the CoL Rothschilds.
I can understand adopting a UK British Air of Superiority Lord Afi of Tallinn style - it's just the British way - - it is the blatant intentional boat job ignorance to the real TRUTH that I abhor.
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https://thepostmillennial.com/biden-administration-seeking-conflict-with-russia-to-restore-credibility?utm_campaign=64487
Posobiec is a Former US Navy Intelligence officer - Speaks fluent Mandarin in said capacity and is often featured on Steve Bannon's Warroom reports.
Like I said watch for what happens after the Putin Xi Olympics Summit.
Xi is in desperate need of Russia's mineral and natural resources.
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https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/all-eyes-on-geneva-as-blinken-and-lavrov-try-again-to-find-off-ramp-to-ukraine-crisis
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I will just put this here.
Biden's whole corrupt administration has been outplayed by Russia and they don't have a clue what they're doing, except pretending that the USA still has the most potent military in the World and that we're living in the early 1990's.
Ukrainian bonds are recovering showing that the market think this is all a Russian joke to get as much out of the west just like A. Navalny said. No invasion just Putin scaring the west again into panic mode to his advantage to get something for nothing. Just Putin playing Biden, Germany for suckers. Now start thinking of choices. We have Biden, who cannot remember where he is, Trump a want to be dictator, or A. Navalny who has his own problems. Which would you choose?
Others have noticed, you are in your own little fantasy world.
Germany is going to be freezing soon enough if they keep biting the hand that warms them.
You don't know what "dictator" means in the English language either. You only keep saying that because your puppet masters told you to say it. Your puppet masters are the unseen dictators and you're their slave. That's why you would vote for someone like Navalny.
More than just freezing...
If Russia decided to shut down NS1, for whatever reasons not excluding further new sanctions if everything goes tits up, their manufacturing, along with much of all Europe manufacturing will also get shut down...
Think of it, NO gas through either NS1 and NS2, nothing through Polish transit, same with Ukrainian transit, along with blocking Europe from Turkish transit pipelines....
Mmmmmmmmm, will get mighty cold indeed...
Now waiting for others to pipe up that the US and Mid East could step in.... :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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OK Looks like SHTF time is incoming - when UK and USA Diplos begin to evacuate "non-essential" People and Families from Embassies in Kiev, the Boris & Joe Tap Dancing Floor Show must have gotten a serious wakeup call than Vladimir Putin is not Phooking Around and instead of romance or sex tourism tours to Kiev and Odessa and the rest of UA - it is likely to be War Zone tours and body bag counts for the immediate future...
Shades of Kabul evacuation fiasco II... Likely to be safer in Kabul now!
Anyone galavanting around RU and UA from the west is best advised to EVAC now to someplace safe like an undersea hotel with its own air/oxygen generation plant from seawater - Like a Trident Ballistic Missle Submarine... This goes Nuclear with Radiation in the ionosphere even Iodine will not protect your thyroid or body from radiation illness.
I am probably OK in New Hampshire but you Euro-UKs are Phucked... you will either freeze or choke on Chernobyl radioactive dust stirred up by flanking Russian tanks in a Pincer move of Kiev from the North and Odessa from the South.
Biden Slammed Over Reports He Can’t Evacuate U.S. Citizens Out Of Ukraine: ‘Criminally Incompetent’
https://www.dailywire.com/news/biden-slammed-over-reports-he-cant-evacuate-u-s-citizens-out-of-ukraine-criminally-incompetent
Democrat President Joe Biden was widely slammed online on Sunday evening amid numerous reports that indicated that the situation in Ukraine is rapidly deteriorating amid an increasingly likely invasion by Russian forces.
What this means is if you or any friends or family are in UA right now or Belarus or Russia it is time to get their bug-out bags in hand and head across the Polish EU border pronto - this means all of you if you do not want to be held in RU or BY as a suspected Western Spy or Enemy Combatant or in UA as a human shield.
New reports indicate that both the UK and USA administrations have ordered the families of all American personnel at the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine (UK Citizens at the British Embassy) to immediately leave the country, has warned U.S. citizens in the country that it will be unable to evacuate them, and is considering sending U.S. military forces to Eastern Europe.
Afghanistan 2.0? Biden Admin Admits They May Not Be Able to Evacuate Americans From Ukraine if WHEN Russia Invades https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/01/biden-admin-says-it-may-not-be-able-to-evacuate-americans-from-ukraine-if-russia-invades/
Old Beijing Joe Biden has proven in Kabul that he is always a day late, a dollar short, and really does not have a clue - compounded by the fact that Gen McMasters an Ultra Neocon War-Monger - would say his primary job was to keep Trump from starting a Nuclear war - whereas now the NeoCon warmongers are the Dems clamoring for a direct war with Russia thinking it will not go NUCLEAR.
Clearly, these DNC radical progressive lefties have been circle-jerking each other off at one of Hunter Biden's giant CCP sponsored Meth and Crack smoking RAVE parties.
NOT GOING TO END WELL FOLKS!
Of course who benefits the most from a USA-UK-EU and Russia war - the China Belt and Road traitors that's who (Think US Chamber of Commerce that just begged Biden to end USA Tariffs on China - CCP Collaborators and Gaslighting Traitors to the Core and Corps.
OBTW I think the Swiss make pretty good Radiation Shielding Gas Masks - just saying the sooner you order yours the better off you might be - not so sure about radiation filtering Water purifiers though.
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You're overreacting Cuffy.
Look to the horses mouth:
Russia is simply moving its armed forces within its territory and that reports of an attack are groundless.
That's the relevant bit from this article (https://www.rt.com/russia/547062-washington-urges-avoid-traveling-moscow/).
It's all theatre to see who has the biggest balls. And it won't be Biden.
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You're overreacting Cuffy.
Look to the horses mouth:
Russia is simply moving its armed forces within its territory and that reports of an attack are groundless.
That's the relevant bit from this artricle (https://www.rt.com/russia/547062-washington-urges-avoid-traveling-moscow/).
It's all theatre to see who has the biggest balls. And it won't be Biden.
Personally, I am not panicked at all enjoying a lovely mild snowless winter in the #1 Most Free rated state in the USA - New Hampshire - While currently living in Covid Frugality Mode while stacking fists of Blue Benjamins and Dollar Cost Averaging Cryptos, Silver, and a bit of Gold coins before Weimar Hyperinflation hits the UK, EU and USA.
As far as the Hunter Biden Crackheads and butt-boiz running amok in the Whitehouse while Old Beijing Joe shuffles about raiding the Ice Cream locker like a 9 year old (Mentally Regressed that is) with his staff Wagging the Dog and shutting down the US Embassy in Kiev I could Chalk Up that to overreacting -
HOWEVER, when the vaunted British Foreign Office and Covid Fascist Germans do the same simultaneously with their Embassies - the latest Satellite Feeds have already shown Russian Troops bolstering allies in the Donbas and the far left mainstream UK, EU, and USA media are being kept in the dark not to further provoke a very determined Vladimir Putin to exercise his might at what may very well be the pinnacle of Russian Power... A rejuvenated RU Military, Strategic alignment with economic and military superpower Communist Red China and Putin grasping the EU by the ballz as they now rely so completely on plentiful Russian Oil and NatGaz pipelines as the EU shuts down its Nuclear Reactors to prevent Global Glowing and other Green Party fantasies.
You cut Russia off from the SWIFT banking network (A financial Act of War) - They cut the EU off from plentiful relatively cheap oil and gaz.
The USA will be just fine after we impeach all the Democommies for High Treason in January 2023 especially since the Canucks and Mexos keep their pipelines to USA refineries pumping at full capacity.
Wisdom of the ancients... When your adversaries are evacuating nonessential personnel and families from their embassies in the UA Capitol City - IT IS A SIGN OF THEIR WEAKNESS - AND OF YOUR (RU) STRENGTH!
The real wild card is if the Liberal Lunatic Leftists and Warmongering NeoCons convince demented Old Joe to preemptively activate the Nuclear Football launch codes - then it is all she wrote for the next million years or so.
Manny the Nuclear Prepper Survivalist supply business is clearly a growth market now in the UK, EU, USA and Canadia.
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Fun Fact: Was tentatively planning a dirty weekend in Kiev in February. Still going. Also planning a longer trip in March, still going.
I also have a currently-valid Russian Visa in my passport, although if I arrive before the tanks do, I suppose I won't have an "entry" stamp.
Not going if the tanks get there first, ofc.
Also Fcuk Joe Biden, who is evidently trying to make sure that Jimmy Carter is no longer the Worst Failure Ever as President.
B/B
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Fun Fact: Was tentatively planning a dirty weekend in Kiev in February. Still going. Also planning a longer trip in March, still going.
I also have a currently-valid Russian Visa in my passport, although if I arrive before the tanks do, I suppose I won't have an "entry" stamp.
Not going if the tanks get there first, ofc.
Also Fcuk Joe Biden, who is evidently trying to make sure that Jimmy Carter is no longer the Worst Failure Ever as President.
B/B
I believe that last statement has already been accomplished plus some. In fact Jimmy Carter is a true statesman and good President compared to the illegitimate jackass currently occupying the White House.
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World Peace is at stake, not the crisis in Ukraine!
The United States and NATO, with the help of most major Western news agencies, present to the world, a distorted picture of an aggressive Russia and deliberately limit the issue to Ukraine. They have been installing weapons and missile systems on the perimeter of Russia, while the real challenges are for world peace. They have been preparing for a long time and are ready to hit neuralgic targets inside Russia in less than 3 minutes, that is how long may take to the new, supersonic rockets to reach, for example, Moscow!
For this reason, Russia for the first time has formally and publicly sets terms of guarantees for collective security that has to apply in Europe and the world. The United States may, in its view and in the Biden’s Government line, want a compromise, but they also don’t want a picture of retreat, which may prove chaotic for the developments and the fate of Ukraine, if we take into considerations the events that took place in Afghanistan and the disaster actions of the Biden’s Government, after USA fighting there, for more than 20 years and finished 4 months ago.
tiphat
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This is what is in Russian news. It is a real joke to anyone who goes there. Also, I do not believe Russia is going to invade this winter. Just a dog and pony show.
In Moscow's view, repeated in nearly every newscast and talk show, Ukraine is a failed state entirely controlled by the "puppet master" -- the United States. Europe is a weak and divided collection of lap dogs taking orders from Washington. Even the US, as frighteningly threatening as it is, is weak and divided too, torn apart by political division and racial unrest.
But wait. How can those powers be a threat -- and be weak at the same time? That's one of the conundrums of Russian state propaganda. Thinking things through isn't what they're trying to encourage. Rather they're trying to raise the blood pressure of their viewers -- and to make them very afraid.
Russian state TV's flagship political news show, Dmitry Kiselyov's "Vesti Nedeli" ("News of the Week"), opened this past Sunday with Kiselyov saying: "Instead of answers to the peaceful initiatives of the Kremlin, they're burying us with accusations and new threats."
Any hint of disagreement between Europe and the US or NATO is headline news in Russia, and one of the top stories on Kiselyov's show featured comments by Germany's naval chief that Putin "deserves respect" and that Crimea -- a Ukrainian territory annexed by Moscow -- is "gone forever." The report ended on the satisfied note that the officer had to resign.
Ukraine may not be caught up in a full-blown invasion for now, but there is already an all-out war of words in Russian media.
US government statements are dismissed as comments from the "Ministry of Information," and Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov has accused Washington of "information hysterics," "lies" and "fakes." (The word "fake" is now a Russian word, pronounced pretty much the same as the English.)
And maps on Russian state TV showing Russia's ally Belarus surrounded by NATO forces bear an uncanny resemblance to maps in Western media reports showing Ukraine surrounded on three sides by Russian troops.
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This is what is in Russian news. It is a real joke to anyone who goes there. Also, I do not believe Russia is going to invade this winter. Just a dog and pony show.
In Moscow's view, repeated in nearly every newscast and talk show, Ukraine is a failed state entirely controlled by the "puppet master" -- the United States. Europe is a weak and divided collection of lap dogs taking orders from Washington. Even the US, as frighteningly threatening as it is, is weak and divided too, torn apart by political division and racial unrest.
Did you not know that Ukraine is a failed state surviving on American help and IMF money?
Pretty obvious that you don't know much about the History of the so called , today, Ukraine! I suggest you find out from your friends, what UKRAINE means, and when was named as such, during the USSR years. Kiev and the eastern parts, Donesk Lugansk , etc, were part of USSR except the western parts under the AustroHugarian empire and also under the Polish , which finaly where were taken over by the USSR. Also ask when the Name, "Ukraine", first appeared and its "meaning".
Lvov, The Florence of Eastern Europe (http://www.ukraine.ukme.com/Lvov/index.html)
In addition your memory it's not good because you forget who organised the Orange revolution, By accident I was there.... staying in Ukraina Hotel and talking the BBC TV staff etc, learn alot and later went to Lvov where I stayed there for a week.........
May I also remind you what took place in Kiev and who organised the coup d'état against Yanukovych in 2014-15 together with the Bandera Nazi Group from West Ukraine and who spent 5 billion Dollars to organise it! It was Victorian Nulan (Fcuk EU), together with Geoffrey R. Pyatt, the US Ambassador, and she revealed in a speech, (I have posted the video on this board earlier.) That the US spend these 5 Billion Dollars.
The American army , for now, is not involved in Ukraine but your Government is using the usual Private army used in other places, like Irag, Syria etc.
What happened in Kazakhstan when your organised demonstrations stopped in 1 day? Did V. Putin and his friends in the Kazakh Government shafted all your efforts, with the support of Xi?
Stop watching the same propaganda TV Channels and watch or read some other sources .... to learn the truth!
tiphat
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More About Western Ukraine and Lvov
Lvov( Lemberg - history)The Florence of the Eastern Europe (http://www.ukraine.ukme.com/Lvov/index.html)
Enjoy Reading! :biggrin:
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This is what is in Russian news. It is a real joke to anyone who goes there. Also, I do not believe Russia is going to invade this winter. Just a dog and pony show.
I agree with you there is not going to be any attack. However the rest of what you talk about is no joke, its bitter truth and therefore I cannot fanthom how you can consider this a joke.
In Moscow's view, repeated in nearly every newscast and talk show, Ukraine is a failed state entirely controlled by the "puppet master" -- the United States. Europe is a weak and divided collection of lap dogs taking orders from Washington. Even the US, as frighteningly threatening as it is, is weak and divided too, torn apart by political division and racial unrest.
All true.
But wait. How can those powers be a threat -- and be weak at the same time? That's one of the conundrums of Russian state propaganda. Thinking things through isn't what they're trying to encourage. Rather they're trying to raise the blood pressure of their viewers -- and to make them very afraid.
A dying whale may also be weak , but I still wouldn't want to get hit by its tail in its death throes. Thats how something can be weak and strong at the same time.
Russian state TV's flagship political news show, Dmitry Kiselyov's "Vesti Nedeli" ("News of the Week"), opened this past Sunday with Kiselyov saying: "Instead of answers to the peaceful initiatives of the Kremlin, they're burying us with accusations and new threats."
Again true, western news is showing exactly that, but with a different narrative of course.
Any hint of disagreement between Europe and the US or NATO is headline news in Russia, and one of the top stories on Kiselyov's show featured comments by Germany's naval chief that Putin "deserves respect" and that Crimea -- a Ukrainian territory annexed by Moscow -- is "gone forever." The report ended on the satisfied note that the officer had to resign.
Again true, but in Western news the sentiment was 'how dare he say that!'
Ukraine may not be caught up in a full-blown invasion for now, but there is already an all-out war of words in Russian media.
Because democracy there vanished, they have a civil war in the east going on, one of its oblasts were so desperate that Russia was asked to takeover in a referendum, I would not want such a state south of my Netherlands, I can fully understand Russia's point of view here.
US government statements are dismissed as comments from the "Ministry of Information," and Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov has accused Washington of "information hysterics," "lies" and "fakes." (The word "fake" is now a Russian word, pronounced pretty much the same as the English.)
And he is wrong how?
- Information hysterics: When there will be no attack (As in the previous 10 cycles of this wheel), what was all that war-drumming in Europe about? Why all the aggressive talk in the USA?
- Lies: Russian collusion with trump anyone? Ever proven? no? good.
- Fakes: Trump in bed with prostitutes peeing over him... ever proven? didn't think so.
etc.
And maps on Russian state TV showing Russia's ally Belarus surrounded by NATO forces bear an uncanny resemblance to maps in Western media reports showing Ukraine surrounded on three sides by Russian troops.
All true, again.
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Pretty obvious that you don't know much about the History of the so called , today, Ukraine! I suggest you find out from your friends, what UKRAINE means, and when was named as such, during the USSR years. Kiev and the eastern parts, Donesk Lugansk , etc, were part of USSR except the western parts under the AustroHugarian empire and also under the Polish , which finaly where were taken over by the USSR. Also ask when the Name, "Ukraine", first appeared and its "meaning".
Why do you call Ukraine “so called”?
Here below is an article from Wikipedia and the etymology of the name. It largely confirms what I have been told in Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine
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Pretty obvious that you don't know much about the History of the so called , today, Ukraine! I suggest you find out from your friends, what UKRAINE means, and when was named as such, during the USSR years. Kiev and the eastern parts, Donesk Lugansk , etc, were part of USSR except the western parts under the AustroHugarian empire and also under the Polish , which finaly where were taken over by the USSR. Also ask when the Name, "Ukraine", first appeared and its "meaning".
Why do you call Ukraine “so called”?
Here below is an article from Wikipedia and the etymology of the name. It largely confirms what I have been told in Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine
Because originaly was a small part of the Russian empire and the Name "The UKaina" meant the "borderlands" and While under the Russian Empire the so called at teh time, "Smalll Russia or borderlands " was gifted with the many large parts of land and number of people. and only when it became independent , after the collapse of USSR declared the name The Ukraine just few years back, abolishe the "THE" from its name. As about the wikioedia source I have already told you that I do not find it reliable as it was before.......
Now take a good look on these images.......
[attachimg=1]
I hope you can read Russian or you may ask politely Markje to verify the info on the images .... I am sure he will verify that the info on the images is correct!
:reading:
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WHO IS THE TRUE INSTIGATOR & WARMONGER IN UKRAINE?
Dostoevsky predicted "Euromaidan-2013" in 1877.
"Russia will not have, and never has had, such haters, envious people, slanderers and even obvious enemies, like all these Slavic tribes, as soon as Russia liberates them , and Europe will agree to recognize them as liberated!” Dostoevsky wrote in 1877. “After liberation, they will begin their new life precisely with what they will beg from Europe, from England and Germany, for example, a guarantee and patronage of their freedom, and at least Russia will also be in the concert of the European powers, but they will do this precisely in defence of Russia.
They will certainly begin with the fact that inside themselves, if not directly out loud, they will declare to themselves and convince themselves that they do not owe Russia the slightest gratitude , on the contrary, that they barely escaped from the love of power of Russia at the conclusion of peace by the intervention of a European concert, and if Europe had not intervened, Russia would have swallowed them up immediately, "meaning the expansion of borders and the foundation of the great All-Slavic empire on enslavement to lavyans to the greedy, cunning and barbarian Great Russian tribe.
Maybe for a whole century, or even more, they will constantly tremble for their freedom and fear the love of power in Russia; they will curry favour with the European states, they will slander Russia, gossip about her and intrigue against her.
Oh, I'm not talking about individuals: there will be those who will understand what Russia meant, means and will always mean for them. But these people, especially at the beginning, will appear in such a pitiful minority that they will be subjected to ridicule, hatred, and even political persecution.
It will be especially pleasant for the liberated Slavs to express and trumpet to the whole world that they are educated tribes, capable of the highest European culture, while Russia is a barbarian country, a gloomy northern colossus, not even pure Slavic blood, a persecutor and hater of European civilization.
They, of course, will have, from the very beginning, a constitutional administration, parliaments, responsible ministers, orators, speeches. They will be extremely comforted and delighted. They will be in rapture reading telegrams about themselves in the Paris and London newspapers, announcing to the whole world that after a long parliamentary storm the ministry finally fell into (... a country to your liking ...) and a new one was formed from a liberal majority and that some one of theirs (... last name to taste ...) finally agreed to accept the portfolio of the president of the council of ministers.
Russia must seriously prepare for the fact that all these liberated Slavs will enthusiastically rush to Europe, will be infected with European forms, political and social, to the point of losing their personality, and thus will have to go through a whole and long period of Europeanism before comprehending at least something in their Slavic significance and in their special Slavic vocation among mankind...
Of course, in the moment of some serious misfortune, they will all certainly turn to Russia for help. No matter how they hate, gossip and slander Europe, flirting with her and assuring her of love, they will always instinctively feel (of course, in a moment of trouble, and not before) that Europe is a natural enemy to their unity, was they will always remain, and that if they exist in the world, then, of course, because there is a huge magnet - Russia, which, irresistibly attracting them all to itself, thereby restrains their integrity and unity. "
F.M. Dostoevsky. Diary writer, September-December 1877
Copied and Translated from a Russian forum
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Why do you call Ukraine “so called”?
Why Did "The Ukraine" Become Just "Ukraine"? (https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/32098/why-did-ukraine-become-just-ukraine)
tiphat
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Why do you call Ukraine “so called”?
Why Did "The Ukraine" Become Just "Ukraine"? (https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/32098/why-did-ukraine-become-just-ukraine)
And your point is?
The above link is covered in far greater detail in the Wikipedia link. But you wish to wallow in your ignorance.
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This is what is in Russian news. It is a real joke to anyone who goes there. Also, I do not believe Russia is going to invade this winter. Just a dog and pony show.
In Moscow's view, repeated in nearly every newscast and talk show, Ukraine is a failed state entirely controlled by the "puppet master" -- the United States. Europe is a weak and divided collection of lap dogs taking orders from Washington. Even the US, as frighteningly threatening as it is, is weak and divided too, torn apart by political division and racial unrest.
Did you not know that Ukraine is a failed state surviving on American help and IMF money?
Pretty obvious that you don't know much about the History of the so called , today, Ukraine! I suggest you find out from your friends, what UKRAINE means, and when was named as such, during the USSR years. Kiev and the eastern parts, Donesk Lugansk , etc, were part of USSR except the western parts under the AustroHugarian empire and also under the Polish , which finaly where were taken over by the USSR. Also ask when the Name, "Ukraine", first appeared and its "meaning".
Lvov, The Florence of Eastern Europe (http://www.ukraine.ukme.com/Lvov/index.html)
In addition your memory it's not good because you forget who organised the Orange revolution, By accident I was there.... staying in Ukraina Hotel and talking the BBC TV staff etc, learn alot and later went to Lvov where I stayed there for a week.........
May I also remind you what took place in Kiev and who organised the coup d'état against Yanukovych in 2014-15 together with the Bandera Nazi Group from West Ukraine and who spent 5 billion Dollars to organise it! It was Victorian Nulan (Fcuk EU), together with Geoffrey R. Pyatt, the US Ambassador, and she revealed in a speech, (I have posted the video on this board earlier.) That the US spend these 5 Billion Dollars.
The American army , for now, is not involved in Ukraine but your Government is using the usual Private army used in other places, like Irag, Syria etc.
What happened in Kazakhstan when your organised demonstrations stopped in 1 day? Did V. Putin and his friends in the Kazakh Government shafted all your efforts, with the support of Xi?
Stop watching the same propaganda TV Channels and watch or read some other sources .... to learn the truth!
tiphat
Isn’t there another failed state on the southeastern edge of Europe?
Oh, yes, it’s that country of lazy waiters called Greece, in hock to the EU, bailed out by Germany, in economic crisis, with rampant unemployment, in a depression since 2008z
A basket case, no less.
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This is what is in Russian news. It is a real joke to anyone who goes there. Also, I do not believe Russia is going to invade this winter. Just a dog and pony show.
In Moscow's view, repeated in nearly every newscast and talk show, Ukraine is a failed state entirely controlled by the "puppet master" -- the United States. Europe is a weak and divided collection of lap dogs taking orders from Washington. Even the US, as frighteningly threatening as it is, is weak and divided too, torn apart by political division and racial unrest.
Did you not know that Ukraine is a failed state surviving on American help and IMF money?
Pretty obvious that you don't know much about the History of the so called , today, Ukraine! I suggest you find out from your friends, what UKRAINE means, and when was named as such, during the USSR years. Kiev and the eastern parts, Donesk Lugansk , etc, were part of USSR except the western parts under the AustroHugarian empire and also under the Polish , which finaly where were taken over by the USSR. Also ask when the Name, "Ukraine", first appeared and its "meaning".
Lvov, The Florence of Eastern Europe (http://www.ukraine.ukme.com/Lvov/index.html)
In addition your memory it's not good because you forget who organised the Orange revolution, By accident I was there.... staying in Ukraina Hotel and talking the BBC TV staff etc, learn alot and later went to Lvov where I stayed there for a week.........
May I also remind you what took place in Kiev and who organised the coup d'état against Yanukovych in 2014-15 together with the Bandera Nazi Group from West Ukraine and who spent 5 billion Dollars to organise it! It was Victorian Nulan (Fcuk EU), together with Geoffrey R. Pyatt, the US Ambassador, and she revealed in a speech, (I have posted the video on this board earlier.) That the US spend these 5 Billion Dollars.
The American army , for now, is not involved in Ukraine but your Government is using the usual Private army used in other places, like Irag, Syria etc.
What happened in Kazakhstan when your organised demonstrations stopped in 1 day? Did V. Putin and his friends in the Kazakh Government shafted all your efforts, with the support of Xi?
Stop watching the same propaganda TV Channels and watch or read some other sources .... to learn the truth!
tiphat
Isn’t there another failed state on the southeastern edge of Europe?
Oh, yes, it’s that country of lazy waiters called Greece, in hock to the EU, bailed out by Germany, in economic crisis, with rampant unemployment, in a depression since 2008z
A basket case, no less.
Don't you mean the Greece? :laugh:
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The usual, useless street dogs return to make personal attacks due to the fact they are all mentally defected idiots and know nothing else to do, neither how to make any civilised conversation especially when presented with various facts and don’t reply to them.
Everybody can see who are these mentally defected street dogs. Personally I am a pensioner and have more free time to read and learn than most people but these useless animals have nothing of any value to offer for our enlightenment apart from shite!
:hidechair:
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The usual, useless street dogs return to make personal attacks due to the fact they are all mentally defected idiots and know nothing else to do, neither how to make any civilised conversation especially when presented with various facts and don’t reply to them.
Everybody can see who are these mentally defected street dogs. Personally I am a pensioner and have more free time to read and learn than most people but these useless animals have nothing of any value to offer for our enlightenment apart from shite!
:hidechair:
Lighten up. That's all I was trying to do, make a joke of his bad post. :coffeeread:
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Someone didn't eat his feta cheese this morning! :laugh: :ROFL:
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The usual, useless street dogs return to make personal attacks due to the fact they are all mentally defected idiots and know nothing else to do, neither how to make any civilised conversation especially when presented with various facts and don’t reply to them.
Everybody can see who are these mentally defected street dogs. Personally I am a pensioner and have more free time to read and learn than most people but these useless animals have nothing of any value to offer for our enlightenment apart from shite!
:hidechair:
Lighten up. That's all I was trying to do, make a joke of his bad post. :coffeeread:
Just wake up and .......read all nasty comments......while drinking Camomile so JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION... we say in Greece: "Together with the dry wood is burning and the wet wood too! so be careful where you are going to swim! :evilgrin0002: ;D
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Drumbeats of War continue - looks like calmer heads will NOT prevail and UA has lost RU's mind thinking it can embroil the US-UK-NATO into a Nuclear Showdown with Russia at the peak of its technological, military, financial, natural resources, and geopolitical powers...
Versus tough-talking Blowhards full of false Bravado in Washington DC, London and Brussels who talk loundly and carry limp sticks. Vlad and Xi who talk softly and carry tough high IQ Masculine Militaries vs the LGBTQ Manny Trannie Lesbo racially divided militaries of the UK, EU and USA.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-just-laid-the-trap-to-start-ukraine-war/ar-AAT7pu4?ocid=msedgntp
Russia Just Laid the Trap to Start Ukraine War
An unnamed representative of the people's militia of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DNR), which has been embroiled in conflict in the Donbas region since 2014, told RIA Novosti that weapons were being "actively drawn to the areas of the contact line to form strike groups."
The DNR representative described how "multiple launch rocket systems, armored formations and equipment for destroying minefields" had arrived in the area.
Earlier, the militia of the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic (LPR), Andriy Marochko, told the Russian state-run news agency that Kiev had placed launch rocket systems and howitzer artillery to the line of contact in the Donbas. Both Moscow and Kiev accuse each other of provocations, and the latest claims raise the specter of war.
Those of you who say nothing to see hear - too much hyperbole - I fear you may be sadly mistaken - this will be like a one sided cage match - Word is Chairman Xi of the CCP has asked his compadre Vladimir to hold off on the partitioning of the UA from NATO EU barking Gay Purse Puppies until after the Beijing Genocide Olympics - shades of the Sochi Winter Games when Crimea was liberated from George Soros and his NGO agitators working on behalf of the CoL Rothschilds and Rockefeller CFR.
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Perhaps someone had to much espresso this morning?
There is another way to look at the situation of Russia ~ Ukraine ~ and the West; the price of a barrel of oil is above $90.- tiphat. Putin did what a bunch of sand eaters could not accomplish in three years.
Kudos to the man!*
*That should make Wiz happy.
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Perhaps someone had to much espresso this morning?
There is another way to look at the situation of Russia ~ Ukraine ~ and the West; the price of a barrel of oil is above $90.- tiphat. Putin did what a bunch of sand eaters could not accomplish in three years.
Kudos to the man!*
*That should make Wiz happy.
Yeah and Biden was a part of that too. He shut down Keystone.
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Perhaps someone had to much espresso this morning?
There is another way to look at the situation of Russia ~ Ukraine ~ and the West; the price of a barrel of oil is above $90.- tiphat. Putin did what a bunch of sand eaters could not accomplish in three years.
Kudos to the man!*
*That should make Wiz happy.
As usual you start talking with your back side first, before asking my opinion!
Why should I be happy when a Litre of petrol was £1.12, a month ago on my local Tesco station and when all these crap started, including the delivery drivers problem, if you remember, NOW yesterday I paid £1.46 ......per litre.
Putin is not the culprit but USA is who together with its NATO allies are controlling the markets and continue the same propaganda against Russia because they are realising that soon the dollar will go bust. Putin and his government have pegged the price of oil at $44 per Gallon to cover the Russian annual budget.
While the cost of oil extraction is around $7 per gallon, Putin is happy to go along with the Markets and if they pay him $90 he will be stupid not to sell them his oil. It is not Russia who manipulates the Oil prices... simply goes along with the Markets and the oil companies pricing. He will be stupid not to sell at these prices, on the other hand why don't you ask what price the petrol cost at the stations in Russia?
To save you looking here are some prices:
Russia Gasoline prices, 17-Jan-2022. Russia Gasoline prices in the petrol stations.
Russia Gasoline prices: Litre Gallon
USD 0.676 2.559
EURO 0.593 2.245
Looks propaganda and brainwashing in the US is doing a good job especially on you!
:evilgrin0002: tiphat
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Yeah and Biden was a part of that too. He shut down Keystone.
The US had been the swing producer of oil and thus the price could be kept low. Biden's policies have negatively affected production in the US and it is no longer the swing producer, so Biden has to go beg OPEC which refused his request. Then whines about gas prices.
Does anyone think any of the Bullshit would be going on with Trump in the WH?
B/B
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The usual, useless street dogs return to make personal attacks due to the fact they are all mentally defected idiots and know nothing else to do, neither how to make any civilised conversation especially when presented with various facts and don't reply to them.
Everybody can see who are these mentally defected street dogs. Personally I am a pensioner and have more free time to read and learn than most people but these useless animals have nothing of any value to offer for our enlightenment apart from shite!
:hidechair:
The skin bug is justifying sucking dog's blood because according to his personal opinion the dog is useless and mentally defected.
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Yeah and Biden was a part of that too. He shut down Keystone.
The US had been the swing producer of oil and thus the price could be kept low. Biden's policies have negatively affected production in the US and it is no longer the swing producer, so Biden has to go beg OPEC which refused his request. They whines about gas prices.
Does anyone think any of the Bullshit would be going on with Trump in the WH?
B/B
Hopefully, Trump does not waste his time and work hard on a plan how to change this country when he is back in the WH.
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. . . before asking my opinion! . . .
I do not need to ask your opinion nor do I give a rats ass about self proclaimed buffoons.
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Yeah and Biden was a part of that too. He shut down Keystone.
The US had been the swing producer of oil and thus the price could be kept low. Biden's policies have negatively affected production in the US and it is no longer the swing producer, so Biden has to go beg OPEC which refused his request. They whines about gas prices.
Does anyone think any of the Bullshit would be going on with Trump in the WH?
B/B
Hopefully, Trump does not waste his time and work hard on a plan how to change this country when he is back in the WH.
Waste his time in which way?
I am not certain Trump is going to run and definitely not certain he will win although if he is the choice I will more than likely vote for him, again.
The problem is that the media and those who control them really are a 5th column in this country and are hell bent on destroying this country. Not too mention that much of the US government has been infiltrated by very bad actors.
Will they employ yet another method to steal another election? No one knows for sure.
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Yeah and Biden was a part of that too. He shut down Keystone.
The US had been the swing producer of oil and thus the price could be kept low. Biden's policies have negatively affected production in the US and it is no longer the swing producer, so Biden has to go beg OPEC which refused his request. They whines about gas prices.
Does anyone think any of the Bullshit would be going on with Trump in the WH?
B/B
Definitely not. Although maybe things needed to happen this way so that the Conservative older Democrats could finally see that the country has gone much too far towards Socialism/Communism.
Maybe just maybe, although I kind of doubt it, the younger millennials who think socialism is a good thing will realize it doesn't really work that well.
Hopefully it's been such an eye opener that there won't be any way to steal the election. I know there are those who think we had a clean election and that Biden really won but I am not one of them. :coffeeread:
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Another nice article of dis-information because of a photograph.
Article really short version: KLM will no longer let its personell sleep in Kiev because of the protests going on.
https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/1744436723/onrust-oekraine-klm-laat-crew-niet-meer-in-kiev-overnachten
So the image with this article, I pulled through google-translate.
Left: Politics can not surpress us. Right: Zelenskii dicatator!
But surely this must putin's fault, right?
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Here's one of the better solutions which I've read. :laugh:
https://babylonbee.com/news/ukraine-asks-kyle-rittenhouse-to-guard-their-border/
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Dismal conditions for Ukrainian soldiers hunkered down near the separatists in Donbas.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-tech-trench-warfare-ukraines-131504592.html
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Dismal conditions for Ukrainian soldiers hunkered down near the separatists in Donbas.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-tech-trench-warfare-ukraines-131504592.html
Same for the seperatists, war is ugly. But why do they explicitly name only 1 faction i wonder