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Information & Chat => News & Political Discussion => Topic started by: msmoby on July 02, 2015, 12:08:11 AM

Title: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 02, 2015, 12:08:11 AM
Last night I was watching Russia 24 at 9pm local time

It was showing us the historical claim Russia had to the Baltic States !!!

Quoting from ''England today', a Russian speaking jornal for ex-pats in Britain :

''The big news from the last days -  the Russian General Prosecutor's Office intends to verify the legitimacy of the exit from  the USSR of the Baltic States  :chuckle:

I thought yesterday was July 1st, not April 1st

All the same, it is indicative of all I claim about Putin's idea for Russia
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 02, 2015, 12:24:04 AM
Cufflinks already raised this - like you he did not bother to actually find out what is going on.

Is reading such a very hard thing to do these days?

If it is a problem for you why not ask your latest target to help you out?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 02, 2015, 03:25:14 AM
Andrewfi

I have no idea of your RU lang capabilities but even if you used some sort of translator you'd realise that your response shows you twist everything to suit your stance.

I have experience of how eth. RU people get treated in Latvia and ensured my then 'target' was able to travel in the EU freely on her 'non citizen ' passport.

As ever, you make the mistake of assuming folk have less experience than you...

I don't have access to a pc and the ability to search for Cuffy's post...I do know what I saw on RU24, last night... 

NOTHING in your response explains the need to investigate the Baltic State's right to independence / how they left ...though I wish that LT and EST had given eth.Ru folk citizenship without language tests or declarations of the wrong doings of the USSR.





Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on July 21, 2015, 04:21:53 PM
Russian President Putin 'Obsessed' With 'Testing NATO' In Ukraine Conflict, Could Confront Baltics, Governor Says

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-president-putin-obsessed-testing-nato-ukraine-conflict-could-confront-baltics-2017007
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 21, 2015, 04:39:47 PM
Yeah, here (http://real-deal-blog.com/2015/06/17/russian-threat-to-the-baltic-states/) is an original full length version of something I penned, a condensed version of which will likely appear on Russia Insider in a few days, and which someone at RT has already pinched and reworded. It managed 40 re-tweets already in virgin form, and pretty much covers the reality.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on July 23, 2015, 02:24:38 AM
Yeah, here (http://real-deal-blog.com/2015/06/17/russian-threat-to-the-baltic-states/) is an original full length version of something I penned, a condensed version of which will likely appear on Russia Insider in a few days, and which someone at RT has already pinched and reworded. It managed 40 re-tweets already in virgin form, and pretty much covers the reality.

I like the article.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 23, 2015, 03:20:36 AM
Manny, IF you check your readers you should find a talktalk ip from Manchester / Sheffield / Birmingham IP

I pointed it out to an eth Russian from LT - living in SW Manchester who was offended by the description of her country and  - quote - 'many inaccuracies'.

You forgot to mention that Russian news has been running a series of articles to demonstrate that the Baltic States 'never - legally - left the USSR.

Why bother - as it was a 'done deal' unless mischief making

To suggest The Kremlin was 'reacting' in Ukraine is hardly honest.

I may not OWN a place in EST - or LV / LT, but I DO know that Vilnius and the surrounding lakes/ forests are beautiful  - perhaps your need to get to EST has  not allowed you to visit many beautiful places in LT or LV



Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on July 23, 2015, 10:36:10 AM
Since I am hosting my Estonian cousin on vacation at the moment we have been discussing lots of Russia, Estonia, Ukraine and other fun stuff as we try some Canadian beers on the patio.  Your article reads like your own viewpoint Manny but doesn't represent the Estonian viewpoint at all from what my cousin is saying.  Amusing.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 23, 2015, 10:38:22 AM
Froid, it has always been hard for them to take an objective look at themselves. Or see mistakes they make. I'd be surprised if many locals agreed with my view to be honest; apart from perhaps some Russians.

Views differ; as they should.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on July 23, 2015, 10:57:54 AM
However, I would say that a locals viewpoint should probably be taken more seriously than someone who has "lived and travelled" an area.  Especially when it seems to be a contrived article. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 23, 2015, 11:23:22 AM
However, I would say that a locals viewpoint should probably be taken more seriously than someone who has "lived and travelled" an area.  Especially when it seems to be a contrived article.

Give us his view then. Or have him write it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 23, 2015, 12:03:39 PM
Whether an Estonian, any particular Estonian agrees with what Manny wrote is not really relevant in terms of whether what Manny wrote is factually correct or not. There's not much with which I'd disagree with in his piece, although I'd not put everything in the same way as he did.

Indeed, that's a big part of the ongoing issue of the propaganda against Russia at the moment. People around the world are being fed a whole lot of untruths and half truths with the express purpose of scaring them into accepting actions, restrictions and legislation that they'd never accept in a million years if they were not thusly scared.

There are significant benefits to the Estonian state from having the Estonian people scared about what Russia might do (but are almost certainly not going to do). When I see some of the crap coming out about the Baltics at the moment I am reminded of the Great HIV Scare of the early part of this century; a manufactured scare story that garnered for Estonia and the Estonian health service a huge amount of money -  at the cost of a frightened populace, almost all of whom STILL don't know the truth.

So, would many Estonians agree with Manny? Probably not - it does not in any way make their fears real - even if those fears are genuinely felt.
That's just the same as here on this forum where we have people bleating on about lies as facts on a daily basis and a large audience ready to believe and be scared of the impact of those lies.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 23, 2015, 12:10:01 PM
This really made me laugh on the subject: http://www.theblogmire.com/russian-non-invasion-causing-concern-in-european-capitals/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AKA Luke on July 23, 2015, 12:30:20 PM
When I see some of the crap coming out about the Baltics at the moment I am reminded of the Great HIV Scare of the early part of this century; a manufactured scare story that garnered for Estonia and the Estonian health service a huge amount of money -  at the cost of a frightened populace, almost all of whom STILL don't know the truth.

Not looking to derail this thread but is this about Narva? It has/gets a lot of bad press especially the HIV thing.

You think it's unfounded? I'm just curious, I only passed through there once.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 23, 2015, 12:36:18 PM
Whether an Estonian, any particular Estonian agrees with what Manny wrote is not really relevant in terms of whether what Manny wrote is factually correct or not. There's not much with which I'd disagree with in his piece, although I'd not put everything in the same way as he did.

It is highly relevant - they outnumber the planted Russians of the former Soviet era. You are both 'spinning' out of control.

Simple question - why the need to run an hour long feature  on  prime time TV News 'telling' Russians that the matter of the leaving of the Baltic States was 'illegal' ... ?



Indeed, that's a big part of the ongoing issue of the propaganda against Russia at the moment.

'propaganda' ?!  :chuckle:

You WELL know who has been indulging in maskirovka - 'deception' and using it's troops in a third nation... 100-11, 13-1 was factual.


People around the world are being fed a whole lot of untruths and half truths with the express purpose of scaring them into accepting actions, restrictions and legislation that they'd never accept in a million years if they were not thusly scared.

Quite and you appear to be supporting this action - shame on you.

There are significant benefits to the Estonian state from having the Estonian people scared about what Russia might do (but are almost certainly not going to do).

As the Estonians are already NATO members and it's the Kremlin owed TV news telling it's audience their break away was illegal - I'd say - in the light of the Kremlin sponsored 'anti-maidan campaign' the Baltic States are well within their rights to wonder what games the Kremlin are indulging in .


When I see some of the crap coming out about the Baltics at the moment I am reminded of the Great HIV Scare of the early part of this century; a manufactured scare story that garnered for Estonia and the Estonian health service a huge amount of money -  at the cost of a frightened populace, almost all of whom STILL don't know the truth.


Jeez, you ARE a piece of work ... HIV/AIDS made a lot of money for lots of people all over the world - as we were paranoid about what we didn't know. I'll remind you that Russia was VERY slow to realise the dangers of shared needles.



So, would many Estonians agree with Manny? Probably not - it does not in any way make their fears real - even if those fears are genuinely felt.
That's just the same as here on this forum where we have people bleating on about lies as facts on a daily basis and a large audience ready to believe and be scared of the impact of those lies.

Sadly, while you are allowed to repeat lies with impunity  - failing to take up offers - that would PROVE YOU WRONG - you're going to going to get very limited success in conning people to believe you

IF your intention is to 'educate us' about the Kremlin being 'misunderstood' - you are failing - miserably
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 23, 2015, 01:05:40 PM
To suggest The Kremlin was 'reacting' in Ukraine is hardly honest.

Absolutely factual I think you will find. Crimea was a reaction to the regime change in Ukraine.

I may not OWN a place in EST - or LV / LT, but I DO know that Vilnius and the surrounding lakes/ forests are beautiful  - perhaps your need to get to EST has  not allowed you to visit many beautiful places in LT or LV

Translation: We agree there are many forests. I point I noted. Unlike you, I do own a place in Estonia and have been going there seventeen years. So I think I may have garnered a teensy weensy bit of knowledge about the place and its inhabitants in that time.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on July 23, 2015, 01:08:07 PM


People around the world are being fed a whole lot of untruths and half truths with the express purpose of scaring them into accepting actions, restrictions and legislation that they'd never accept in a million years if they were not thusly scared.

Quite and you appear to be supporting this action - shame on you.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 23, 2015, 01:08:21 PM
Froid, it has always been hard for them to take an objective look at themselves. Or see mistakes they make. I'd be surprised if many locals agreed with my view to be honest; apart from perhaps some Russians.

Which is why the Estonians should be afraid, very afraid.  They see and hear a man over there in Moscow trying his best to rehabilitate Stalin and they know exactly what those kind of people are capable of.  Putin's warmongering may play well to his home crowd however let's hope he keeps it at home from now on.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 23, 2015, 01:09:56 PM
To suggest The Kremlin was 'reacting' in Ukraine is hardly honest.

Absolutely factual I think you will find. Crimea was a reaction to the regime change in Ukraine.

I may not OWN a place in EST - or LV / LT, but I DO know that Vilnius and the surrounding lakes/ forests are beautiful  - perhaps your need to get to EST has  not allowed you to visit many beautiful places in LT or LV

Translation: We agree there are many forests. I point I noted. Unlike you, I do own a place in Estonia and have been going there seventeen years. So I think I may have garnered a teensy weensy bit of knowledge about the place and its inhabitants in that time.

I wonder if you had owned a place in Crimea if you would still own it, absent your connections.   :smokin:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on July 23, 2015, 01:47:05 PM

I wonder if you had owned a place in Crimea if you would still own it, absent your connections.   :smokin:
Yes he would.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 23, 2015, 02:53:07 PM
Anteros, where do you get this stuff from?
The Russian government are not 'rehabilitating' Stalin and neither is the Russian state. However it would be a know nothing imbecile who was unable to recognise the advances that occurred during the time of his regime - at the same time as recognizing the bad stuff.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 23, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
May I remind everybody of little history.

It appears that the Yalta agreement, of spheres of influence is till in operation and I noticed that the Russians stick to it..... and the Americans too for that matter.

Of course there are few tests, here and there by both sides but not actually good enough reasons for escalation to the point of no return, war and despite the efforts of the Pentagon hawks to support their friends in the defence apparatus.

Regrading the Baltic states and their participation in the EU and NATO, was mostly instigated by the Germans, who now have nearly complete economical control of all three of them. Of course the American's, don't like a German expansion of influence, from the country who is officially an occupied territory until 2099, after signing the complete capitulation to the Americans,  and exist and operate as a public company, not as a Nation State.

Could it be that the American's are clipping the wings of the Germans as they cannot accept a 3rd member joining the table of hegemons?

Is this the reason for the joint army exercises
in these 3 Ex - Russian Republics?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on July 23, 2015, 08:28:31 PM
His view is you are full of shit, have a verbose puppet parroting you, and that 3 years from now, or next when he needs it to shore up home support, Putin will make his next move.  Whether it is green men in Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia or even Poland it doesn't matter.  It will be bad. 

If your property was in Crimea or Ukraine you might still own it sure...but it might also be a shell crater...or it might be worth a lot lot lot less.  Especially when priced in rubles. 

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 23, 2015, 09:31:37 PM

I wonder if you had owned a place in Crimea if you would still own it, absent your connections.   :smokin:
Yes he would.

Absent the official Russian connections?  You must be smoking something other than cigarettes.   :Zzzzsleep:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on July 23, 2015, 11:05:27 PM
Absent the official Russian connections?  You must be smoking something other than cigarettes.   :Zzzzsleep:
No, I have real-life relatives living there, who own their own shit mortgage-free, a strange concept to americans, I know.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 23, 2015, 11:12:05 PM
Anteros, where do you get this stuff from?
The Russian government are not 'rehabilitating' Stalin and neither is the Russian state. However it would be a know nothing imbecile who was unable to recognise the advances that occurred during the time of his regime - at the same time as recognizing the bad stuff.
This is the sort of post that worries me anout afi.

He now points out Stalin's policies that worked.... throw human fodder at the Nazis while we move out industry behind the Urals.. and a small hont as to his massive failings.

The policy here has been to promote strength and victory over facism.. that we were strong and proud. I  have watched it unfolding since the RU and former Soviet flag were merged to promote the 60th anniversary of the end of the 2nd World War in Europe.

Sadly, Stalin is increasingly seen as a leader who made the former USSR powerful and many people in Russia now seem ready to forgive his many mistakes / cruel policies which involved mass eth. cleansings and planting of Russians in places where the locals objected to the soviet yolk.

Their descendants are now settled in places like EST and LV and are not even recognised as citizens....just residents. LT at least made these people citizens. Perhaps the fact that there were far less percentage wise was an influencing factor.

Russia gets upset when folks that hought fighting for the Nazis would free them from Soviet  occupation commemerate those that died...not understanding the conceptvof my enemies enemy being my friend and the language tests that eth Russians have to pass to become citizens includes a declaration that renounces the FSU occupation..something I feel should be removed..as so many of these people were BORN in the Baltic state (parents and g parents, too)

The recent investigation by the Russian Prosecution General into the legallity of the B.States leaving the USSR simply demonstrates that the Kremlin is happy to keep the pot stirred.

Unlike Manny or Afi... I can and understand see both sides pov.



.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 23, 2015, 11:25:39 PM
Fact is ALL the Baltic countries are members of NATO.

Any aggression toward them will be considered the same as a direct attack on a member NATO country by that aggressor.

Even Putin isn't stupid enough to start World War Three.

I see the threat level here as zero.


Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on July 24, 2015, 12:47:15 AM
His view is you are full of shit, have a verbose puppet parroting you, and that 3 years from now, or next when he needs it to shore up home support, Putin will make his next move.  Whether it is green men in Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia or even Poland it doesn't matter.  It will be bad. 


Fact is ALL the Baltic countries are members of NATO.

Any aggression toward them will be considered the same as a direct attack on a member NATO country by that aggressor.


+ 100

(Albeit i disagree that it would start the WW III ;))

Froid, pass kind regards to your visitor; how absolutely amazing he's so familiar with RUA admin and his viewpoints, so to have such a strong opinion on it, more so, that he can express it in such strong colloquial English... Is his Russian as fluent?  I always said it, most teeny-weeny nations have several things in common - they are excellent in parroting neighboring dominant cultures (that's unless they are willing to spill their own blood, like we did, but that's usually not the case, usually they merely passive-aggressively chameleonize) and they are quick learners. :)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 24, 2015, 01:05:27 AM
I would be interested to  see froid's invisible friend share his fact based insight into the benefits that would accrue to Russia from invading territory which currently provides benefits to Russia at a price that suits both Russia and Estonia, bearing in mind that any such benefits would increase in price if there were to be an invasion.

It is taken for granted that froid's invisible yet knowledgeable friend understands that price has more than just a money dimension.

Frankly, when a rational consideration is made then it becomes obvious that there is no invasion threat from Russia but that the current attitude of the Estonian leadership is destabilising and risky because it serves to alter a status quo that serves both Estonia and Russia well. The Great Aids Scare whilst similarly dishonest and which served as a template for the  current silliness did not carry the downside that Estonian posturing carries today. And, no, I do not think that Russia would invade Estonia because of that posturing.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 24, 2015, 03:33:07 AM


Absolutely factual I think you will find. Crimea was a reaction to the regime change in Ukraine. 

The movement - started off in reaction to the Kremlin's stunts to persuade Yanu' which way to jump...  reacting to Kremlin interference in UA policy.

Do tell us how Crimeans were in any 'danger' while 20-25K troops were present on the peninsular ....



I may not OWN a place in EST - or LV / LT, but I DO know that Vilnius and the surrounding lakes/ forests are beautiful  - perhaps your need to get to EST has  not allowed you to visit many beautiful places in LT or LV

Translation: We agree there are many forests. I point I noted. Unlike you, I do own a place in Estonia and have been going there seventeen years. So I think I may have garnered a teensy weensy bit of knowledge about the place and its inhabitants in that time.

To remind you - I was discussing your 'analysis of Lithuania's beauty ...    Do TRY to keep up and not deflect.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 24, 2015, 03:37:26 AM
I would be interested to  see froid's invisible friend

'invisible' - the inference I perceive from such a comment is that Froid was 'fibbing' about his friend...  a not untypical  'style' of afi ...

Remember, this is a guy who simply repeats lies - he know he could check the veracity of .. NOT to be trusted

Currently, there is no threat of invasion - just headline news that the Baltic States never legally left the USSR .

You'll note [derogatory term removed] fail to respond to this....
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 24, 2015, 03:49:54 AM
Currently, there is no threat of invasion -

Among the waffle, you do occasionally demonstrate that you get it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 24, 2015, 04:02:36 AM

Among the waffle, you do occasionally demonstrate that you get it.

I suppose you keep missing the point in my 'waffle' questioning the need for RUSSIAN NEWS to dwell on the prosecutor generals investigation - suggesting that the B.States never 'legally' left the USSR... :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 24, 2015, 04:18:24 AM
Actually, I have read those items, and it is an unusual thing for them to be talking about now. But as the USSR is no more, even if they didn't split legally, it would be moot anyway.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 24, 2015, 04:36:40 AM
Alfy, you can't control yourself can you?

Froid's friend is invisible because he is not here, not posting on his behalf and therefore hardly a representative sample of anything - he is not visible.

In English a thing not seen, that cannot be seen, that is not visible, is invisible.

There is no 'headline news' that The Baltics never left the USSR. You may have missed the relevant headlines - there is no USSR.
You have managed to 'forget' often enough to make your continued repetitions, after reminders and corrections, purposeful untruths, or as we say in English, lies. To repeat once again: an investigation has been requested and agreed to in order to clarify the legal situation with regard to the Baltic states and their move to independence when the USSR dissolved itself.

The investigation is connected to the procedure and not the outcome and will become a matter of record; a clarification of history - that is a good thing. Clarification and better understanding is rarely a bad thing, except for the habitually dishonest who depend upon obfuscation and confusion - as you do.

As you also know, it has already been made clear that the current status of these countries will not be affected by the outcome the investigation, whatever the results may be.

So, how many more times do you intend on lying to the world about this topic?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 24, 2015, 04:37:17 AM
Actually, I have read those items, and it is an unusual thing for them to be talking about now. But as the USSR is no more, even if they didn't split legally, it would be moot anyway.

I think making such a 'Legal investigation' - which is moot - as you say - was provocative and mischief making - designed to make the B.States ask for protection - then the Kremlin will speak of 'Aggression' by NATO.



Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 24, 2015, 04:49:15 AM
Alfy, you can't control yourself can you?

says the fibber - who repeats his fibs and won't take up the offer of checking them out and apologising .. the very continued use of 'alfy' - bearing in mind your explanation proves my point. AGAIN.

There is rarely a day passes when you insult a poster rather than dealing with what they say - or you try to belittle the poster's ability / veracity.


Froid's friend is invisible because he is not here, not posting on his behalf and therefore hardly a representative sample of anything - he is not visible.

In English a thing not seen, that cannot be seen, that is not visible, is invisible.

 :chuckle: Knew you would try that 'excuse'  .. explain the need for the parenthesis ...  ?  You are caught 'at it', again ....


There is no 'headline news' that The Baltics never left the USSR. You may have missed the relevant headlines - there is no USSR.



IF you had bothered to check, first - the inference was that what was that failing to legally leave the USSR  - meant that their 'independence' was not legal  - for someone who professes to know stuff - you sure are posting daft, today.


You call me a liar and I try to show why you are 'mistaken' ... you just ignore the chance to prove you've lied.. 

If you wish for your posts to be respected - it is time to demonstrate you actually seek the truth .. not seek to hide your fibs

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 24, 2015, 07:18:05 AM
Absent the official Russian connections?  You must be smoking something other than cigarettes.   :Zzzzsleep:
No, I have real-life relatives living there, who own their own shit mortgage-free, a strange concept to americans, I know.

Nice attempt to deflect and dodge the real issue. 

Let me break it down for you.  Ukraine snubbed Russia by not paying their gas bill and throwing out the Russian puppet Yanukonvict.  Uncle Vlad wanted to be sure Russia got paid so he seized Crimea.  Mission accomplished. 

Uncle Vlad and associates profit.  Any Westerner (without deep ties to the regime in Moscow) and any Ukrainian owning land there kissed it goodbye.   :smokin:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on July 24, 2015, 08:39:37 AM

Uncle Vlad and associates profit.  Any Westerner (without deep ties to the regime in Moscow) and any Ukrainian owning land there kissed it goodbye.   :smokin:
And I am telling you, I never heard of any westerner being disowned. Russia also has no law forbidding foreigners to own land (afaik ianal).

And if you were on friendly terms with the town clerks in Crimea, nothing will change for 100%, as none of them have been replaced.

Quote
Who Can Buy a Property in Russia?

There are no restrictions on foreigners purchasing property in Russia. Some restrictions may apply in case of purchase of agricultural land; however, this article is mostly concerned with the issues of purchasing a residential property.
Since foreigners also didn't get to own argicultural land, thats no issue.

Mark.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: bagalia on July 25, 2015, 12:47:54 AM
Yeah, here (http://real-deal-blog.com/2015/06/17/russian-threat-to-the-baltic-states/) is an original full length version of something I penned, a condensed version of which will likely appear on Russia Insider in a few days, and which someone at RT has already pinched and reworded. It managed 40 re-tweets already in virgin form, and pretty much covers the reality.


One objection and one dissagreement.

First off, The Baltic countries offer nothing to the EU. I know you feel strongly about what countries bring to the EU but if you have nothing to offer then are you worthless? Is a country or its people not worth anything?

Moscow ceded these countries peacefully in the early 90's.

Moscow did not cede the Baltics over so peacefully as you make it look. You ignore the Lietuva bloody Sunday where 14 died and hundreds were wounded. And, Russia did not leave without a little skirmish or two in each country even after they decided to pull out.

Why do that if you wanted them back, as some now claim? Well, the answer is Russia doesn't want these places back.

Moscow had little choice in the matter. We are talking about the breakup of the USSR. At that time there was not the power or money to do much of anything. Its choices were to fire on hundreds of thousands of civilians and risk a larger war or pull out.

Crimea was another area that was given up peacefully and you now see where that has gone. Moscow seems to want Odessa also.

Last year Russia's border with Georgia was temporarily expanded as a security reason for the winter Olympics. Do you suppose they will ever move it back and how legal was that anyway.

If the Baltic states are worried, as the hysterical western media and American Neocons claim, shouldn't Finland be worried too?

Finland beat the crap out of Russia already once. There is very little to compare between it and the Baltics. Finland is a neutral country and took a different road. Whatever, the subject is the Baltics and theirs is a different history with Moscow.

Russia's Neighbors are worried! Are they really?

Yes, worried. Not worried for the reasons you seem to allude to. Do not muddy the water with western media. There is not likely to be a Russian invasion.

Baltic countries do not hate Russians, at least not all of them but there is a good amount of hate still left over for Moscow. There is still history between the Baltics and Moscow. The Baltics do not require western media to understand Moscow. They understand it much better than many others.

The Baltics see Moscow get involved in neighboring countries. They saw it in Georgia and they see it now in Ukraine. They have seen it in other countries. This involvement tends to tear countries apart. There is a genuine fear of such a thing happening in the Baltics.

There is also a fear that NATO will not be able or willing to defend them if needed. These two simple fears are enough to cause the problems you are whining about.

It was a nice enough read for Russian propaganda. I just wanted to add my two bits on those few little points.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 25, 2015, 02:53:10 AM
First off, The Baltic countries offer nothing to the EU. I know you feel strongly about what countries bring to the EU but if you have nothing to offer then are you worthless? Is a country or its people not worth anything?

The countries were just fine outside of the EU. But to join any club, you either pay or bring something to the party. The Baltics cost the affluent countries of the EU money. Germans, Brits and Dutch don't want to pay for roads and infrastructure in half the world. There is no benefit to it.

You ignore the Lietuva bloody Sunday where 14 died and hundreds were wounded. And, Russia did not leave without a little skirmish or two in each country even after they decided to pull out.

In terms of changing ownership of countries, I would still regard 14 as peaceful.

Crimea was another area that was given up peacefully and you now see where that has gone. Moscow seems to want Odessa also.

Not quite. Crimea was transferred to Ukraine when Ukraine was in the USSR, so no real transfer at all. Only after the USSR was Crimea trapped outside Russia in the ownership of Ukraine.

Finland beat the crap out of Russia already once. There is very little to compare between it and the Baltics. Finland is a neutral country and took a different road. Whatever, the subject is the Baltics and theirs is a different history with Moscow.

Beat the "crap" out of them when? 1917?  :rolleye0009:  Finland has about as many people as Greater Manchester. It would be easier than Crimea. However, we seem to agree there is no risk to Finland, ergo the statement that not all of Russia's neighbours are worried is quite correct.

The Baltics see Moscow get involved in neighboring countries. They saw it in Georgia and they see it now in Ukraine. They have seen it in other countries. This involvement tends to tear countries apart. There is a genuine fear of such a thing happening in the Baltics.

An overly simplistic view as used by the western media.

There is also a fear that NATO will not be able or willing to defend them if needed.

Ahh yes, the continual NATO eastward expansion without thought.

It was a nice enough read for Russian propaganda.

I love how any opinion that differs to the Washington narrative to you lot is 'propaganda'.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 25, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
Nice attempt to deflect and dodge the real issue. 

Let me break it down for you.  Ukraine snubbed Russia by not paying their gas bill and throwing out the Russian puppet Yanukonvict.  Uncle Vlad wanted to be sure Russia got paid so he seized Crimea.  Mission accomplished. 

Uncle Vlad and associates profit.  Any Westerner (without deep ties to the regime in Moscow) and any Ukrainian owning land there kissed it goodbye.   :smokin:

With comments like this one ..... This thread touches on something, I have wanted to discuss for a while but I find my time is limited due to other engagements and priorities. Today, I will have a go, because I noticed nobody paid attention to my previous post on this thread and I understand posting objective and neutral comments does not go down well with certain people and as G.W. Bush said: ‘’you are either with us or …….”

(http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/558952b8eab8eac8014c3a61/the-us-is-putting-tanks-and-artillery-in-the-baltics-and-eastern-europe.jpg?maxX=400)

Manny, I read the article in your other outlet “The real Deal”, “Russian thread to Baltic states” and I have to say it is very good, perceptive and in my humble view objective. BTW, I bought and read the book, “Frontline Ukraine” by Richard Sakwa but I don’t think many over the pond and here bother with such endeavours.  I can make several comments about the “orange revolution”, the US first try, I was there at the time and the current Ukrainian crisis but I maybe bore to tears some people. All I would say is: “Popular uprising is spontaneous and Revolutions are organised by the CIA”.

I am, as usual, fascinated by the 'contributions' from the ardent US lovers, whom, I take to be either Americans per se' or some other brainwashed anti Russian/communist/socialist individual. I have never quite understood what any balanced person could find to object to about the principles of collectivism, but it is here I wish to draw the comparison.

Here is an example from a poster in the Guardian Newspaper:

"Russia is currently a technologically and economically backward country. It has lost its homemade industry of the Soviet era. Capitalism did not create Silcon Valley in Russia - it consisted in robbery and corporate raids assisted by the judicial and fiscal authorities. Russia's military power is 1/8 of the EU's military resources. Russia plays the card of a senile imperial power. While China is projecting its economical power to the entire world Russia relies on land grab, on sending tanks to the neighbouring countries and inciting ethnic hate. Russia is mentally akin to North Corea. The only product of Russia - gas and oil - flow thru rusty pipes, 20 percent of it leaks into the taiga polluting the environment and destroying the livelyhood of local populations reindeer in Siberia. This is due to the fact that Russian companies were only interested in taking over the Soviet pipelines and making easy bucks. An impending catastrophe at home forced Putin to look for new land. But the new acquisitions cost Russia dearly. They spend billions on subsidizing corrupt political systems in South Ossetia, Abkhasia (essentially, a country for retired people) and Transnistria. Another diversion from an economical crisis is a gulag system for dissidents and the defense of traditional values - gay bashing, racism, heavy drinking and beating women. In this respect Russia is close to Uganda."

I am sure that Manny and others can write pages in reply to this cretin and ignorant, as I did, but for now, I will stick with my narrative.

Let us imagine a new “Evil Empire”. One that has spread it's tentacles through virtually the entire civilised world. Wherever this new Evil Empire doctrine is initiated, the vast majority of the population are plunged into abject poverty, while those small few who facilitated the imposition, invariably grow vastly wealthy. Following the takeover of the country, the countries assets are sold off for peanuts to members of the 'inner circle' and any trade regulations or welfare benefits are swept away.

In order to further their long-term aims and to lay siege to the actual bastions of power within some of the more democratised countries, precisely as the Soviet Union did, potential future servants of the Empire are recruited from the best universities as future political leaders or as economists. Invariably the recruited political candidates are given a fast-track rise through their political party hierarchy and often assume prime positions in government.

Frightening?

I have just described what has been going on in the world since 1973 when an active programme of world domination was hatched, in Washington, and expressly designed to impose the economic policies of one Milton Friedman and free market, monetarist dogma on the whole world. One of the biggest obstacles in the plan was the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.
 
Fifteen years ago, in November 1999, the US government reversed one of the key elements of the Depression-era banking laws, knocking down the firewall between commercial banks, which take deposits and make loans, and investment banks, which underwrite securities. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was seen at the time as a way to help American banks grow larger and better competes on the world stage. The Treasury Secretary Lawrence H. Summers said at the time. “This historic legislation will better enable American companies to compete in the new economy.”

Mr. Obama said in a speech on the economy at Cooper Union in New York in March 2008. “Instead of establishing a 21st century regulatory framework, we simply dismantled the old one,” thereby encouraging “a winner take all, anything goes environment that helped foster devastating dislocations in our economy.”

Today, President Obama seems to have softened his views a bit when it comes to Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. The administration’s proposal for overhauling financial regulatory system makes no mention of resurrecting the firewall between commercial banks and investment banks and still allows insurance companies to deal in securities. The change of heart may have something to do with the fact that one of his senior economic advisers is Mr. Summers.

The programme actually works best where the target country has suffered (or been made to suffer) a major upheaval (Ukraine is a perfect and topical example) but where a country may have some semblance of democracy' (like the US and UK) the recruitment of political candidates is initiated.

Among those who have been recruited to the cause in the UK, I would have to name Thatcher, Blair, Straw, Mandelson, Major, Cameron Osborne etc. Of course, many minor (but significant) politicians will also be holding key positions within their respective parties under the direction of the corporatists of Wall St or the City of London.

So my question is simply this : how are any of these individuals any different from Philby, Burgess, Maclean or Blunt?

Given that, in all cases, these political harlots have sold their fellow countrymen into the indentured slavery of the global banksters and corporatists (the 1%) both at home and abroad. As such I believe we should call the actions of the majority of the current political class precisely what it is - treason.

I believe that given the damage their actions have inflicted on the populations of numerous countries worldwide they are considerably more loathsome than the aforementioned Cambridge toffs.

Neoliberalism involves the use of the state to funnel wealth from poor to rich, tax revenues being handed to corporations who provide public services which were better performed before privatisation, with the final insult being that these corporations are usually based offshore.

Naomi Klein nailed all this in The Shock Doctrine.

The state still has the potential to be a force for social democracy. In fact, it's difficult, in a world increasingly run by corporations, to see any viable countervailing force to them than the state, properly accountable, representative and careful about the interests of the most vulnerable.

Socialist individualism is meaningless, an oxymoron really. We just need to take the state back from corporate control.

It is my view that when writing any comments about the current world affairs and rolling news to take into consideration the larger puzzle of Geopolitical considerations and circumstances. So in my view the Baltic States/Ukraine/ Georgia etc. are small pones in the big world pond of interests of the new “Evil Empire”. I reiterate my previous comment that:

“It appears that the Yalta agreement, of spheres of influence is still in operation and I noticed that the Russians stick to it and the Americans too, for that matter.

 :hidechair:

PS: Wife is out shopping...  so I had time to play.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 25, 2015, 10:55:24 AM
Wiz

remind us how many US Tanks were on European soil - prior to the Kremlin's stunt in Crimea  ?

That would be ZERO

Best accompany the Mrs ...  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 25, 2015, 11:50:04 AM
Wiz

remind us how many US Tanks were on European soil - prior to the Kremlin's stunt in Crimea  ?

That would be ZERO

Best accompany the Mrs ...  :chuckle:

You are so predictable .... never stop to think for a minute  and always prove me right! :ROFL:  :ROFL: :ROFL:

[attachimg=1]

http://militarybases.com/germany/ (http://militarybases.com/germany/)

Now take a look at this very short list......

List of United States Army installations in Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany)

Did you missed my previous comment that Germany is an occupied country until 2099 to the Americans?????

With your big mouth... you are lucky you escaped...  from Abkhasia but then you had a RW to save you!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I rest my case your honour!!! :P :P :P
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on July 25, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Russia could of joined NATO instead making NATO the enemy. Just this would not of been good for Putin.  Most of the current problem in Russia is Putin wanting to stay in power but he has done a terrible job up to this point. The Russian economy expanded early 2000's only because of the high price of oil and this was nothing Putin did.  Now Putin's Russia needs enemies that are trying to destroy Russia so Russian will support him and keep it Putin's Russia. He now enjoy a 90 per cent approval rating. Without NATO, Crimea, and the Ukraine he would be out of office.  His support was dropping fast before the Crimea event; down to 50 and a few per cent. With the recent drop in living standards it would way less. This whole war thing is so he can stay in power. In order to stay in power he has passed laws to outlaw protests, he also spends almost as much on secrete police and propaganda outlets as he does on his over sized army. He is so broke he is having to rob the health care system in Russia and lay of Russian government workers. The point is it is not the sanctions which at this point are having little to no effect, it is the dropping price of oil and economy that had nothing else going for it combined with an over size military and police budget.  This is a government that does not care about the Russian people only about Putin and his rich friends and staying in power.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 25, 2015, 12:51:06 PM
Wiz

remind us how many US Tanks were on European soil - prior to the Kremlin's stunt in Crimea  ?

That would be ZERO

Best accompany the Mrs ...  :chuckle:

You are so predictable .... never stop to think for a minute  and always prove me right! :ROFL:  :ROFL: :ROFL:

(Attachment Link)

http://militarybases.com/germany/ (http://militarybases.com/germany/)

Now take a look at this very short list......

List of United States Army installations in Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany)

Did you missed my previous comment that Germany is an occupied country until 2099 to the Americans?????

With your big mouth... you are lucky you escaped...  from Abkhasia but then you had a RW to save you!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I rest my case your honour!!! :P :P :P

Yes, and thanks to Russian aggression and warmongering the USA will be again increasing our military footprint in Europe, especially after a Republican wins the White House.  Even if H. Clinton were to win you can look for a reinvigorated US and NATO presence surrounding Russia. 

Putin wants to test NATO as he secretly has been hoping to break it up, just as Hitler tested Neville Chamberlain and then did what he did until the West finally responded.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 25, 2015, 12:55:09 PM
Russia could of joined NATO instead making NATO the enemy. Just this would not of been good for Putin.  Most of the current problem in Russia is Putin wanting to stay in power but he has done a terrible job up to this point. The Russian economy expanded early 2000's only because of the high price of oil and this was nothing Putin did.  Now Putin's Russia needs enemies that are trying to destroy Russia so Russian will support him and keep it Putin's Russia. He now enjoy a 90 per cent approval rating. Without NATO, Crimea, and the Ukraine he would be out of office.  His support was dropping fast before the Crimea event; down to 50 and a few per cent. With the recent drop in living standards it would way less. This whole war thing is so he can stay in power. In order to stay in power he has passed laws to outlaw protests, he also spends almost as much on secrete police and propaganda outlets as he does on his over sized army. He is so broke he is having to rob the health care system in Russia and lay of Russian government workers. The point is it is not the sanctions which at this point are having little to no effect, it is the dropping price of oil and economy that had nothing else going for it combined with an over size military and police budget.  This is a government that does not care about the Russian people only about Putin and his rich friends and staying in power.

Russian values have never matched Western values so Russia joining NATO would never happen, especially not under a V. Putin.  The rest of what you wrote is entirely accurate.  Just as Nazi Germany had to create external enemies to keep the head guy in power, Putin must do the same, but the ending is just as predictable as it always is.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 25, 2015, 03:59:19 PM
Russia could of joined NATO instead making NATO the enemy. Just this would not of been good for Putin.  Most of the current problem in Russia is Putin wanting to stay in power but he has done a terrible job up to this point. The Russian economy expanded early 2000's only because of the high price of oil and this was nothing Putin did.  Now Putin's Russia needs enemies that are trying to destroy Russia so Russian will support him and keep it Putin's Russia. He now enjoy a 90 per cent approval rating. Without NATO, Crimea, and the Ukraine he would be out of office.  His support was dropping fast before the Crimea event; down to 50 and a few per cent. With the recent drop in living standards it would way less. This whole war thing is so he can stay in power. In order to stay in power he has passed laws to outlaw protests, he also spends almost as much on secrete police and propaganda outlets as he does on his over sized army. He is so broke he is having to rob the health care system in Russia and lay of Russian government workers. The point is it is not the sanctions which at this point are having little to no effect, it is the dropping price of oil and economy that had nothing else going for it combined with an over size military and police budget.  This is a government that does not care about the Russian people only about Putin and his rich friends and staying in power.

I just wonder, which are your sources for the valuable comments that you have made, without a shred of credible evidence. Obviously these are your own assumptions because you have been listening and watching all the American propaganda emanating from the White House. Despite visiting, as you indicate Russia you failed to observe anything there, neither understand of what is going on around the globe, today, and who is really behind it!

May I suggest you to read this article in the “American Free Press” and not what you see or read on the CNN, Fox, etc. You probably you may never have heard about this newspaper….. It’s American, Not Russian, not European or from any other nation. Enjoy reading your own Ron Paul, telling you some real facts. :laugh:

Will the Seizure of Russian Assets Kill the Dollar?
By Former Rep. Ron Paul – a former U.S. representative from Texas and medical doctor …

Oh dear, he is one of yours.  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

 “America, Western bankers risk war with Putin rather than see Russia and China challenge the global supremacy of the U.S. dollar. “

“The end result of this needless bullying by the U.S. will hasten the one thing Washington fears the most: a world monetary system in which the U.S. has no say and the dollar is relegated to playing second fiddle.”


http://americanfreepress.net/?p=25595#more-25595  (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=25595#more-25595)

As I am feeling lazy reading all that sophisticated comments that emanate from your part of the world…. Read the answer that I gave to that Cretin in the Guardian in reply to his comments posted in my earlier post.



If gas and oil are the "only products of Russia" , what about these:



If you can't understand why, then take a look at the new map in Crimea.

So Putin and Russia - with one stone and NOT a shot killed two birds.

1) Crimea is now part of Russia, Russia does not have to pay rent for the bases in Hot waters for its fleet
2) at the same time aquired the 200 miles Exclusive Economic Zone around Crimea, where there is plenty of Oil and Gas.

I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort and looks now they will get nothing out of the company they created to explore for oil and Gas. :chuckle:

[attachimg=1]

BTW are you reading the News or they report nothing to you, of what is going on in Kiev?
The Right sector Nazi asking for Poroshenko's head! The IMF with the US help is going to loose billions in loans that they were given to Kiev in support of your stuges.

Putin is sitting tight and waiting Ukraine to go begging, to join mother Russia. READ HISTORY MY FRIEND and listen to Ron Paul...... telling you the facts.

Now listen to the good news.

Russia, China, India, Iran, Brazil and S. Africa, for the past few years they were buying Gold accumulating many thousand tones and Putin, the latest I have checked, has accumulated 1150 tones of Gold.... and despite the US and its EU allies... has managed to stabilise the Rubble.

America is manipulating the price of Gold... so Putin, is buying the staff cheaply out of the $500 billion currency reserves that he has in his pocket with nearly very little external Debt.

Russia has over the years issued state bonds in Rubble and international investors bought them ... but now Putin is spending some of his $$$$$$ and buy them back on the free market at 1/2 price......... Oh I forgot to tell you that was a third bird with the same stone.

Look closer at home, your kind of Democracy, a society with its million poor people and  also pay attention to what Ron Paul and Graig Roberts are saying.

“The end result of this needless bullying by the U.S. will hasten the one thing Washington fears the most: a world monetary system in which the U.S. has no say and the dollar is relegated to playing second fiddle.”

Good night   and don't forget to read.... :reading:  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 25, 2015, 11:13:27 PM
Wiz

remind us how many US Tanks were on European soil - prior to the Kremlin's stunt in Crimea  ?

That would be ZERO

Best accompany the Mrs ...  :chuckle:



You are so predictable .... never stop to think for a minute  and always prove me right!
Now take a look at this very short list......

List of United States Army installations in Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany)

Did you missed my previous comment that Germany is an occupied country until 2099 to the Americans?????



I rest my case your honour!!! :P :P :P

Wiz

I rested my case when you ducked how many US tanks had been on European soil pre Crimea's forceful annexation - pls- those of you that 'object' to this - It was necessary to negate the UA forces with guns - so don't respond with nonsense like 'not a shot was fired' ...

Any sane poster would not be suggesting Germany was 'occupied ' . One of the down sides of the Kremlin expansionist policy is that the German forces are likely to be increasingly used overseas.... NOT what the Soviets would have wanted following Yalta.....




Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on July 25, 2015, 11:41:18 PM
OPINION

Europe’s Russia denial

The likelihood of Putin moves on Baltics and Central Europe is uncomfortably high.
http://www.politico.eu/article/europe-russia-denial-ukraine-baltics-central-europe-attack/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 26, 2015, 12:07:26 AM
Russia could of joined NATO instead making NATO the enemy. Just this would not of been good for Putin.  Most of the current problem in Russia is Putin wanting to stay in power but he has done a terrible job up to this point. The Russian economy expanded early 2000's only because of the high price of oil and this was nothing Putin did.  Now Putin's Russia needs enemies that are trying to destroy Russia so Russian will support him and keep it Putin's Russia. He now enjoy a 90 per cent approval rating. Without NATO, Crimea, and the Ukraine he would be out of office.  His support was dropping fast before the Crimea event; down to 50 and a few per cent. With the recent drop in living standards it would way less. This whole war thing is so he can stay in power. In order to stay in power he has passed laws to outlaw protests, he also spends almost as much on secrete police and propaganda outlets as he does on his over sized army. He is so broke he is having to rob the health care system in Russia and lay of Russian government workers. The point is it is not the sanctions which at this point are having little to no effect, it is the dropping price of oil and economy that had nothing else going for it combined with an over size military and police budget.  This is a government that does not care about the Russian people only about Putin and his rich friends and staying in power.

I just wonder, which are your sources for the valuable comments that you have made, without a shred of credible evidence. Obviously these are your own assumptions because you have been listening and watching all the American propaganda emanating from the White House. Despite visiting, as you indicate Russia you failed to observe anything there, neither understand of what is going on around the globe, today, and who is really behind it!

May I suggest you to read this article in the “American Free Press” and not what you see or read on the CNN, Fox, etc. You probably you may never have heard about this newspaper….. It’s American, Not Russian, not European or from any other nation. Enjoy reading your own Ron Paul, telling you some real facts. :laugh:

Will the Seizure of Russian Assets Kill the Dollar?
By Former Rep. Ron Paul – a former U.S. representative from Texas and medical doctor …

Oh dear, he is one of yours.  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

 “America, Western bankers risk war with Putin rather than see Russia and China challenge the global supremacy of the U.S. dollar. “

“The end result of this needless bullying by the U.S. will hasten the one thing Washington fears the most: a world monetary system in which the U.S. has no say and the dollar is relegated to playing second fiddle.”


http://americanfreepress.net/?p=25595#more-25595  (http://americanfreepress.net/?p=25595#more-25595)

As I am feeling lazy reading all that sophisticated comments that emanate from your part of the world…. Read the answer that I gave to that Cretin in the Guardian in reply to his comments posted in my earlier post.

  • 1) If Russia is so technologically "backward", why does NASA use Russian rocket launchers to send American astronauts to the Russian space station?

    2) If Russia's military capacities are only 1/8 of European "resources" (whatever that means), why didn't "Europe" (whatever than means) intervene militarily in Crimea to stop the Russian Army?

    3) If Russia is "playing the card of a senile imperial power", why didn't they reinstate the empire?

    4) If Russia is " mentally akin to North Corea." (sic), why do they have a vibrant, functional multiparty democracy that is not beholden to special interests or neocon lobbies?


If gas and oil are the "only products of Russia" , what about these:

  • Iron and steel: $20,050,729,000 (3.8% of total exports)

    Pearls, gems, precious metals and coins: $14,367,047,000 (2.7%)

    Fertilizers: $9,119,157,000 (1.7%)

    Machinery: $8,815,393,000 (1.7%)

    Wood: $7,324,251,000 (1.4%)

    Aluminum: $7,181,742,000 (1.4%)

    Inorganic chemicals: $5,009,209,000 (1%)

    Copper: $4,962,945,000 (0.9%)

    Electronic equipment: $4,914,638,000 (0.9%)

  • - If Russia's is constantly "polluting taiga and destroying the livelihood of local population", why didn't the western oil companies involved in joint oil and gas ventures with the Russia ever object and protest such mistreatment of the local population? Isn't the well-being, health and prosperity of the Russian population the first and foremost on the minds of the western governments?

    - If the "Russian companies are only interested in taking over the Soviet pipelines and making easy bucks", why did some $ 300 billion get siphoned from Yeltsin's fallen Russia and sent directly to the Wall Street bankers? Could it be this was because Wall Street was controlling those same "Russian" companies until Vladimir Putin came along and said: enough!

    - If impending catastrophe at home forced Putin to look for new land, why did Russian GDP grow some 300% since 2000 (the year Putin came to power), but American GDP grew by a measly 8% over the same period? Indeed, if "impending catastrophe" forced him to do so, surely it was a very, very slowly-creeping catastrophe: it took Vlad Putin 15 years to react to it.

    - Finally, if the Russians spent "billions on subsidizing corrupt political systems in South Ossetia, Abkhasia (sic), what do you say about US subsidizing every mercenary in the world: Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Philippines, Pakistan....you name it, they funded it.

    - Abhkazia is self-sufficient. South Ossetia will soon be, and Russian expenses (1500 soldiers) in Transnyistria is insignificant. All three COMBINED cost Russia just a fraction of the cost of what State Department spent on Ukraine alone.

    - The "new acquisitions" may cost Russia when calculated in US Dollar, (the rapidly disintegrating former global settlement currency). Converted to Roubles, the unification with Crimea is a massive national profit.

If you can't understand why, then take a look at the new map in Crimea.

So Putin and Russia - with one stone and NOT a shot killed two birds.

1) Crimea is now part of Russia, Russia does not have to pay rent for the bases in Hot waters for its fleet
2) at the same time aquired the 200 miles Exclusive Economic Zone around Crimea, where there is plenty of Oil and Gas.

I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort and looks now they will get nothing out of the company they created to explore for oil and Gas. :chuckle:

(Attachment Link)

BTW are you reading the News or they report nothing to you, of what is going on in Kiev?
The Right sector Nazi asking for Poroshenko's head! The IMF with the US help is going to loose billions in loans that they were given to Kiev in support of your stuges.

Putin is sitting tight and waiting Ukraine to go begging, to join mother Russia. READ HISTORY MY FRIEND and listen to Ron Paul...... telling you the facts.

Now listen to the good news.

Russia, China, India, Iran, Brazil and S. Africa, for the past few years they were buying Gold accumulating many thousand tones and Putin, the latest I have checked, has accumulated 1150 tones of Gold.... and despite the US and its EU allies... has managed to stabilise the Rubble.

America is manipulating the price of Gold... so Putin, is buying the staff cheaply out of the $500 billion currency reserves that he has in his pocket with nearly very little external Debt.

Russia has over the years issued state bonds in Rubble and international investors bought them ... but now Putin is spending some of his $$$$$$ and buy them back on the free market at 1/2 price......... Oh I forgot to tell you that was a third bird with the same stone.

Look closer at home, your kind of Democracy, a society with its million poor people and  also pay attention to what Ron Paul and Graig Roberts are saying.

“The end result of this needless bullying by the U.S. will hasten the one thing Washington fears the most: a world monetary system in which the U.S. has no say and the dollar is relegated to playing second fiddle.”

Good night   and don't forget to read.... :reading:  ;D ;D ;D

Wow!  What a pile of horse manure that was...I didn't know it was possible to put so much of the sh1t into one post.

Ron Paul?  He's somewhat of a crackpot.  Certainly not a completely sane guy.  He's been saying that the USA and the Federal Reserve are going bankrupt for as long as I can remember.

Gold?  Certainly a good thing for a rainy day.  You should keep perhaps 5% to 10% minimum of your assets in that.

I would suggest that you read what a real professional investor says about Gold (Billionaire investor Warren Buffet) says about Gold.  He's actually not real excited or positive about it.

What Russia produces?  LOL!   :ROFL:   :ROFL:  Are we back in the 19th Century?  Minerals?  Fertilizer?  Russia's GDP is about 1 Trillion.  USA is 16 Trillion.  Small minded persons cannot seem to comprehend that to a certain level deficits really don't matter.  Russia is way behind the West in turns of producing high technology industry which is the future of the World.  Russia has to buy those things, often from former enemies.

I suggest you stop reading conspiracy theories, however I doubt if you will.  You guys are all the same.... :Zzzzsleep:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 26, 2015, 12:19:43 AM

1) If Russia is so technologically "backward", why does NASA use Russian rocket launchers to send American astronauts to the Russian space station?

cheaper  - have you seen how many Russian launch rockets have exploded in the last two years  ? Believe me I know - as I relied on a Proton M carrying a satellite payload launching on time - it was delayed nearly five months as  previous launches had 'failed' .. 'Thanks'

2) If Russia's military capacities are only 1/8 of European "resources" (whatever that means), why didn't "Europe" (whatever than means) intervene militarily in Crimea to stop the Russian Army?

It is pretty clear to sane people what it means, Wiz. Putin's stunt in Crimea was a risk ..he bet that the west would not physically interfere and he needed a 'win' as the revenues from sales of natural resources weren't going to balance his books for the foreseeable future. Putin gambled for the sack of 'popularity' - He fears people power.



3) If Russia is "playing the card of a senile imperial power", why didn't they reinstate the empire?


IF you open your eyes, Wiz, the Imperial flag of Russia is used and territories are being reclaimed - you do not need to read stuff to see this

4) If Russia is " mentally akin to North Corea." (sic), why do they have a vibrant, functional multiparty democracy that is not beholden to special interests or neocon lobbies?

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Wiz, which democracy do you know of has the President

1/ change the constitution to keep getting standing for President

2/ by 'degree' regional and city leaders are appointed by the PRESIDENT - not elected

3/ the constitution makes it impossible to form new parties....ask Saakasvilli's new assistant - a former RU PM's daughter - about the 'democracy' that kept her out of the Duma...







Your list of other exports demonstrates how Russia relies on energy exports, too much

I have yet to see a desirable car manufactured here - Check out the number of Ladas - compared to S.Korean / Euro/ Japan/ US brands


 If Russia's is constantly "polluting taiga and destroying the livelihood of local population", why didn't the western oil companies involved in joint oil and gas ventures with the Russia ever object and protest such mistreatment of the local population? Isn't the well-being, health and prosperity of the Russian population the first and foremost on the minds of the western governments?


Wiz, I wouldn't read the reports of those environmentalists NOT involved in oil / gas production  - nor venture out too long near an Aluminium melting plant in say Krasnoyarsk on a day with little / no circulation of air.  Russia is improving  - but it has a way to go. 'Poor stds' of environmental husbandry' were the 'excuse' used to remove inconvenient w.companies from the local market

 
- If the "Russian companies are only interested in taking over the Soviet pipelines and making easy bucks", why did some $ 300 billion get siphoned from Yeltsin's fallen Russia and sent directly to the Wall Street bankers? Could it be this was because Wall Street was controlling those same "Russian" companies until Vladimir Putin came along and said: enough!

Wiz, were did must of the loans come from for the new infrastructure started under YELTSIN and who managed to bury a criminal case when handling a 'food for metal' programme - as a high ranking civil servant in SPb  ?...Millions of USD 'disappeared'

- If impending catastrophe at home forced Putin to look for new land, why did Russian GDP grow some 300% since 2000 (the year Putin came to power), but American GDP grew by a measly 8% over the same period? Indeed, if "impending catastrophe" forced him to do so, surely it was a very, very slowly-creeping catastrophe: it took Vlad Putin 15 years to react to it.

The land grab was a 'Argentine Junta- like' popularity stunt and comparing a 'new' capitalist economy with natural resources to export with the USA is not proving anything ... Why don't you tell us about the recent  'successes' ..I'm sure Teachers, Civil Servants, etc., who have seen their real incomes and pensions eroding - long before Crimea would point out to you that things were and are getting worse, again.

How much of this is down to mismanagement of the economy or just rotten luck with prices of exported commodities is a debate for another time.


- Finally, if the Russians spent "billions on subsidizing corrupt political systems in South Ossetia, Abkhasia (sic), what do you say about US subsidizing every mercenary in the world: Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Philippines, Pakistan....you name it, they funded it.


Wiz, why do you generalise so much to 'prove' an argument  ? ALL it does is weaken your point ..

I wasn't aware the USA was funding Communists in the Northern Philippines, and which 'movement' in TR  ?

China and Russia are / were - respectively - heavily involved in Syria and Libya

Pakistan ? What 'mercenaries' are being funded, there... Last time I looked the govt was not keen to have 'Taliban' controlling parts of their country . Do you want control of Pakistani nukes in the hands of those who would happily start a war with India  ?



- Abhkazia is self-sufficient.

 :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:

You are deluded... Russian troops provide security and as someone who has actually BEEN there and seen the infrastructure ' self sufficient' they are not ...

South Ossetia will soon be, and Russian expenses (1500 soldiers) in Transnyistria is insignificant. All three COMBINED cost Russia just a fraction of the cost of what State Department spent on Ukraine alone.


I think you'll find the war between Georgia and Russia - was VERY costly and we are hardly likely to see an admission of spending in UA by Moscow - as everyone is a 'volunteer ' ...

- The "new acquisitions" may cost Russia when calculated in US Dollar, (the rapidly disintegrating former global settlement currency).Converted to Roubles, the unification with Crimea is a massive national profit.


 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Please explain this 'interesting' economic argument. Especially, while their is no land bridge to Crimea, the costs of building the Kerch Straits bridge are six fold the orig. estimates of a year ago.

Naturally- your thinking along the  lines you do  - this cost may be 'offset' by thinking the Crimea was required for 'free'  ... You need to compare the cost to Turkey of the 'TRNC' before making more daft assertions.

You can be sure UA will make a winning case re compo.


If you can't understand why, then take a look at the new map in Crimea

The map is a work of fiction

So Putin and Russia - with one stone and NOT a shot killed two birds.


So, you are daft enough to STILL quote nonsense - about 'not a shot fired'..I'm sure the OSCE, Ukraine forces and families of those who died at the hands of Russian forces might take 'issue' with your 'facts' .. 


1) Crimea is now part of Russia, Russia does not have to pay rent for the bases in Hot wa ???ters for its fleet
2) at the same time aquired the 200 miles Exclusive Economic Zone around Crimea, where there is plenty of Oil and Gas.

'Hot water' - how apt ...thinking the Kremlin will not end up paying for that militarily acquired is naive.

Oil / Gas zones... would that be like the one's Turkey claims around Cyprus and behind of 'TRNC'  ?  :chuckle:


I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort and looks now they will get nothing out of the company they created to explore for oil and Gas. :chuckle:


Political Families benefiting from the exploration of  nation's resources is indeed wrong, Wiz... Ask most UA folk about how they felt about Yanu's family...


BTW are you reading the News or they report nothing to you, of what is going on in Kiev?
The Right sector Nazi asking for Poroshenko's head! The IMF with the US help is going to loose billions in loans that they were given to Kiev in support of your stuges.

I read the news and even Polls / Electoral results .. remind us how parties getting 2 percent of the vote in two elections have a popular mandate, Wiz..

Putin is sitting tight and waiting Ukraine to go begging, to join mother Russia. READ HISTORY MY FRIEND and listen to Ron Paul...... telling you the facts.

Without doubt he is playing a waiting game, while being the main party stirring the pot.. is that 'praiseworthy' in your eyes, Wiz  ?



Russia, China, India, Iran, Brazil and S. Africa, for the past few years they were buying Gold accumulating many thousand tones and Putin, the latest I have checked, has accumulated 1150 tones of Gold.... and despite the US and its EU allies... has managed to stabilise the Rubble.

AH, 'Stabilise' ... that is the currency that has gone from 75 to nearly 91 rub to the GBP - in the last three months - nearly 20 percent down

Good night   and don't forget to read.... :reading:  ;D ;D ;D

I'd read more than 'Ronnie's rants',Wiz - you seem to miss out vital info that turns most of your assertions on their head

Hope you weren't investing too heavily in China..
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 26, 2015, 07:02:05 AM
. . . I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort . . .

While I have seen some tasteless posts here, the above (and I do not agree with the current administration) is repulsive.

I thought the elderly became more laid back, you have proved that this is not true.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 26, 2015, 08:21:30 AM

I rested my case when you ducked how many US tanks had been on European soil pre Crimea's forceful annexation - pls- those of you that 'object' to this - It was necessary to negate the UA forces with guns - so don't respond with nonsense like 'not a shot was fired' ...

Any sane poster would not be suggesting Germany was 'occupied ' . One of the down sides of the Kremlin expansionist policy is that the German forces are likely to be increasingly used overseas.... NOT what the Soviets would have wanted following Yalta.....

You know what is your problem????  You like talking too much ... instead of taking care of certain person with a red dress!

You think you are an expert in everything and whoever doesn't agree with you .... is "Daft"!

Your knit picking style is very boring and you never write any interesting articles or comments to read. If the reader agree with you or not it's another matter.

I like reading articles, like the one of Manny, regarding the Baltic countries, which gives us an overall objective view of the situation. As we know the writer is not a fan of Putin and his system of governance and that is the value of his article. I am not a fan either but tries to see things objectively and don't allow myself to be brainwashed by the western or eastern propaganda.

Reading history and financial matters it also helps to understand the overall picture of the new world order, after www II. Choosing the sources it’s also important and a bit of research, it always helps .

Let me help you to understand my replies to your comments.

You asked about the number of tanks..... and I replied, look how many army bases the US has in the soil of Germany..... of course they are not football clubs ...... are they?

NATO .. who created, who runs the show and for whos' interests?
Simple... USA. All  other members… are just vassals, including the UK, for their policies.

Germany after WW II.  That will be very interesting for you to research… and learn some crucial historical facts and have the real picture about the country and of course its plans about the European project, the new EUSSR, as I call it.

Having read many times statements by the German Finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, that sovereign member state of the EE that have financial problems, should accept reduction of their sovereignty. I am sure you know for the Greeks, and I expect for other Nations too, that is a Red flag.

(http://affaritaliani.tribunapoliticaweb.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/shuble.jpg)

Schäuble gave the answer to this crucial subject himself, revealing a well hidden secret for years from the crowds, in a speech on the 18 November 2011 at the European Banking Congress at the exhibition centre in Frankfurt.

He said:

"The concept of sovereignty has led Europe into absurdity during the two world wars in the first half of the last century. And we in Germany from the 8 May 1945 never were an independent country. This was already clear in the Basic Law that exists in the Explanatory Report of 1949 ".

Reading something like that got my curiosity and started searching …. and now many things make sense to me and are easier to understand of what is going on.

Secret subordination Treaty

However, apart from the Basic Law before was approved, allegedly, was a secret State Treaty dated 21 May 1949, in which the Allies after the war secured the power to take decisions on the German State, that a declaration of allegiance of each Chancellor must be signed before taking up his/her duties, and control of all media (SMEs) by the year 2099.

All that is confirmed in the book "Die deutsche Karte – Das verdeckte (The German Map - the Verdict ) by THE German ex-head of the secret services Gerd-Helmut Komossa

(https://i0.wp.com/kopp-medien.websale.net/knv/normal/b0/a5/18374445z.jpg)

You have enough information in your hands … to go searching and then comeback and dispute, as usual, all my statements ….. with your own well researched facts.

Finally, somebody earlier gave you a good advice to keep your mouth shut, while gallivanting chasing skirt…. To “friendly” places.  Keep your eyes and ears at your woman and when back to base… you can go on disputing my posts, like a Russian woman does!

 :) :) :)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 26, 2015, 08:27:33 AM
. . . I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort . . .

While I have seen some tasteless posts here, the above (and I do not agree with the current administration) is repulsive.

I thought the elderly became more laid back, you have proved that this is not true.

He's so busy reading conspiracy theory sites that he doesn't know that Biden's son died a tragic death.  I think Moby handled all of his points very well though.

Russia's concept of "investing" for their future is apparently buying up as much Gold as they can, instead of putting people to work rebuilding their downtrodden infrastructure outside of the few cities which have it.

How much do you think they've spent on this Ukrainian adventure so far, Av?  At the expense of pensions, infrastructure and their standing in the World community.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 26, 2015, 08:29:24 AM
. . . I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort . . .

While I have seen some tasteless posts here, the above (and I do not agree with the current administration) is repulsive.

I thought the elderly became more laid back, you have proved that this is not true.
Can we hear your reasons and you comments,  why my above comment is repulsive?

Making personal attacks and comments does not validate your objections!
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 26, 2015, 08:51:29 AM
. . . I really feel sorry for Mr Bidden and Son.... so many trips to Kiev, so much effort . . .

While I have seen some tasteless posts here, the above (and I do not agree with the current administration) is repulsive.

I thought the elderly became more laid back, you have proved that this is not true.
Can we hear your reasons and you comments,  why my above comment is repulsive?

Making personal attacks and comments does not validate your objections!

Perhaps you are not only elderly but also a brain dead parrot. VP Biden buried his son who died this year, try to keep up with the news even if you are a bigot. Earlier he attended the funeral of his wife.

Just a suggestion try to read more and use less hyperbole.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Danchik on July 26, 2015, 09:44:29 AM
Biden has more than one son. Maybe if you and a few others kept up, you'd know this. While what you're referring to is tragic, don't confuse R. Hunter with Beau.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: TomT on July 26, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
As soon as I read the phrase, "Despite what Manny said," I knew that this was a BS topic that was designed to discredit, with typical disregard for reality and honesty.

The detailed dissection of Wiz's post is dripping with irony. The dissector wrote about what is "clear to sane people," as if sane people waste their time with line-by-line rebuttals. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 26, 2015, 10:49:59 AM
As soon as I read the phrase, "Despite what Manny said," I knew that this was a BS topic that was designed to discredit, with typical disregard for reality and honesty.

Yes, it is a silly title. It needs changing to something more factual.

[Edit: Done]
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 26, 2015, 11:05:44 AM
Biden has more than one son. Maybe if you and a few others kept up, you'd know this. While what you're referring to is tragic, don't confuse R. Hunter with Beau.

Danchik, (and for that matter Wiz) I understand where the confusion has come from. In fact Beau received while now deceased the most attention in fact Wiz is making a clumsy attempt to draw in Hunter Bidden.

One of the advantages of a variety posters they are clear in both references and sources. I wish Wiz would follow the same protocol.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 26, 2015, 04:24:09 PM
It really does not matter who invests or invested in Ukraine, it's their country (or at least it was until broken apart by Russia) and they can invite anyone they wish to invest in infrastructure there.

It should be little surprise that they would prefer a country with an A+ credit rating such as the USA versus a country with junk bond credit rating, and yet here we are being told again and again that the USA is a "declining Empire" while Russia is making deals with the BIC's.   :ROFL: 

Anyways we know the real reasons why Russia stole Crimea -- to get their land cheap and more importantly to get drilling rights to oil etc. around Crimea.

So for a couple of conspiracy theory persons to whine about possible US investment in Ukraine is just absurd, but really it's par for the course.

Back on the topic of the title there would be no concerns about possible invasion of Baltic States were it not for the pattern of warmongering by Putin, starting with the carpet bombing and ethnic cleansing of Chechnya, then the invasion of Georgia, then Crimea, then Eastern Ukraine and now him claiming that the Baltic nations had no right to leave the USSR blah blah blah.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 26, 2015, 06:12:52 PM
Fella, you are miles away.  :rolleye0009:

It really does not matter who invests or invested in Ukraine, it's their country

Well, yes it does. America started a civil war there to gain control of the infrastructure (among other things). Hence why we see the Biden family, and relatives of Kerry slotted into utility companies now.

and yet here we are being told again and again that the USA is a "declining Empire"

America is done. It is insolvent. Only constant invasion of other countries (and that means use of the dollar and arms sales) keeps it afloat.

Anyways we know the real reasons why Russia stole Crimea -- to get their land cheap and more importantly to get drilling rights to oil etc. around Crimea.

Re-unified. To keep the US installed coup government from taking over Sevastopol.

So for a couple of conspiracy theory persons to whine about possible US investment in Ukraine is just absurd, but really it's par for the course.

Truth hurts.

Back on the topic of the title there would be no concerns about possible invasion of Baltic States were it not for the pattern of warmongering by Putin,

Putin has made *no* threats to the Baltics.

starting with the carpet bombing and ethnic cleansing of Chechnya, then the invasion of Georgia,

Nothing to do with the Baltics. This is Neocon waffle you picked up from your media.

then Crimea,

Reactive.

then Eastern Ukraine

But not a single proper photo in 2 years.

and now him claiming that the Baltic nations had no right to leave the USSR blah blah blah.

The USSR is dead. Has been for decades. That is about correcting the history books. Nothing to do with the Baltics and Russia today.

Really, put down the CNN and the Fox stuff.........
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 26, 2015, 06:37:06 PM
Fella, you are miles . . .

Really, put down the CNN and the Fox stuff.........

Anteros - Moby and a few others in the short to medium term Manny is correct.

What is the long term? This is how Russia thinks as well as certain Arabic states.

Please consider the long term.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 26, 2015, 06:40:20 PM
Fella, you are miles . . .

Really, put down the CNN and the Fox stuff.........

Anteros - Moby and a few others in the short to medium term Manny is correct.


Christ, hang out the flags. Someone gets it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 26, 2015, 10:27:56 PM
As soon as I read the phrase, "Despite what Manny said," I knew that this was a BS topic that was designed to discredit, with typical disregard for reality and honesty.

Yes, it is a silly title. It needs changing to something more factual.

[Edit: Done]
Former Soviet style edit, I see.

This is the mini 'Pravda.

The title was bang on.  .Manny even admitted he didn't know why the Russian Prosecutor General needed to investigate a moot issue.

I guess 'come the revolution',  Manny will be a Political Commissar, with Wiz and Andrewfi 'Legal and Economic' advisors )))

.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 26, 2015, 10:40:43 PM




The detailed dissection of Wiz's post is dripping with irony. The dissector wrote about what is "clear to sane people," as if sane people waste their time with line-by-line rebuttals.

TomT.. check stats for threads you start... It may become apparent to you that my observation that you are like one of the miserable old giys from the Muppet show...

Naturally, those WITH an open mind can appreciate I gave Wiz' assertions the courtesy of a detailed response.








.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 26, 2015, 10:49:45 PM

Putin has made *no* threats to the Baltics.


Well, at least that statement is true.

Neocon is such a 2000's term Manny.  Nobody in the USA uses it anymore, not even the liberals.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 26, 2015, 10:57:56 PM
Fella, you are miles away.  :rolleye0009:

It really does not matter who invests or invested in Ukraine, it's their country

Well, yes it does. America started a civil war there to gain control of the infrastructure (among other things). Hence why we see the Biden family, and relatives of Kerry slotted into utility companies now.

and yet here we are being told again and again that the USA is a "declining Empire"

America is done. It is insolvent. Only constant invasion of other countries (and that means use of the dollar and arms sales) keeps it afloat.


How you can manage to post this comical crap with a straight face is amazing.  I hope during your little trip to Moscow you got a promise to get paid in Gold bullion for your propaganda and not Roubles as we know that currency is barely afloat. 

All it will take is a Republican like Rick Perry from Texas to do a real number on the Russians main source of revenue (oil) by approving the Keystone pipeline, bringing Coal mines back and if need be subsidizing oil production here in the USA for national security reasons, in fact he's promised more or less to do just that.

The USA is not solvent?  Gawd how you repeat this worthless tripe is beyond me.  It matters not if there is another crisis like or worse than 2008, our capacity and our people are 100 times more resilient than any other country on planet Earth.

Who does Russia need to get the latest oil drilling technology from if they wish to keep up with the West?  That's right, the USA.  Russian methods are old and getting older; USA continues to invent and develop new technologies at an alarming rate.

Russia cannot even build a decent car, their credit rating is junk, and yet you have the audacity to claim the USA is not solvent.

Like I said, better make sure the Russians pay you in some offshore account (away from Russia) in either Gold bullion or US dollars.

The Rouble lost how much in the past 15 months or so?  Something like 65%? 

As far as Ukraine goes, it was Russia who financed a civil war there and continues to do so.  Yanuconvict was thrown out by Ukrainians, not by the USA.  Yanuconvict was Russia's guy and now even Putin made statements to the effect the guy is a thief.

Now like Texan said here Russia, here is the mess you made of Ukraine, you pay for it -- at least the East.  Russia will never get near the West.  You will see a flood of arms from Poland and other former Eastern bloc nations who want to keep Russia far, far away.

In fact I've even heard some rumors that Sweden is going to (or already has) supply Ukraine with some nice juicy tank killers to keep Putler's little fantasy of a land bridge to Crimea just that.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Donhollio on July 26, 2015, 11:24:17 PM
 I agree it is quite comical the way he and the other ones carry on. Facts don't matter, just repeat yourself until the lie seems plausible to those too retarded to think for themselves. It has worked in the past and Putin has brainwashed millions in Russia doing the exact same thing.  Evil America is to blame, what fools the Russians were to emulate them for all these years.  :-\
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 26, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
I agree it is quite comical the way he and the other ones carry on. Facts don't matter, just repeat yourself until the lie seems plausible to those too retarded to think for themselves. It has worked in the past and Putin has brainwashed millions in Russia doing the exact same thing.  Evil America is to blame, what fools they were to emulate them for all these years.  :-\

The only thing which is not "solvent" is Putin himself.  Not sure how long the Oligarchs are going to keep watching their fortunes shrink.   :chuckle:

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 27, 2015, 12:33:54 AM
. . . Facts don't matter, just repeat yourself until the lie seems plausible to those too retarded to think for themselves. It has worked in the past and Putin has brainwashed millions in Russia doing the exact same thing.  Evil America is to blame, what fools they were to emulate them for all these years.

There is a "rule" that if you repeat and reinforce a lie enough it becomes the truth, at least in the ears of those who hear it.

I am sort of waiting to hear Wiz to come out with the Albright Doctrine as the basis of America's foreign policy with regard to Russia.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on July 27, 2015, 12:37:44 AM
Manny, I bet you would never thought three years ago the dollar would climb for three years while Ruble has would fall apart. But that just shows how little you really understand about all this junk you keep bringing up. Russia and China have now for years tried to trash the dollar only to have it stronger than ever. The US has trimmed the growth rate of it debt by 5 per cent. This is a very small amount and one would think it would have no effect. But it has.  The America economy is much more stable than the Russian economy. If we had no debt we would have a huge problem as our currency would be so valuable we could not sell products to anybody. The Russian economy is tied to oil which is a very unstable commodity giving Russia boom and bust cycles. This bust cycle and war in Ukraine has left Russia nearly broke. Putin spending much of the remaining money on the military is surely not helping the country or the Russian people. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 27, 2015, 01:07:03 AM
In some respects Russia is more isolated than it was even at the height of the cold war. The countries, republics or regions that it subjugated hold a healthy distance from the Kremlin today.

The economy which is a "one trick pony" is more or less dead in the water. We saw Wiz post Russia's exports with one glaring mistake it was/is a joke. I suspect Apple earns more on intellectual property in a day than the entire Russian legit IT and computer industry earns in a year. Never mind Microsoft, Intel and host of other computer and software firms that are America.

Of course Russia is doing an admirable job at hacking and espionage, give them credit for this.

A Russian car is a joke, unless you consider the Lada Nivea. And than you have to make an appointment to get on the highway.

The current Russian leadership has squandered the good will (yes at times misguided) in the post Cold War period. But they have themselves largely to blame.

The either pity Mother Russia or Russia is doing just fine BS is just smoke and mirrors.

Look at it this way Ukraine and America have downed each one civilian aircraft, admitted guilt and paid compensation. Russia excluding MH-17 almost a bakers dozen, including it seems two of there own civilian aircraft. Way to go Aeroflot and Kremlin LLC.

I have said this before, the Russian people are amongst the finest on this planet. If you sat a typical Russian next to an American they would have a good laugh in short order about there "elected officials"  They might toast with Vodka or Coors  :sick0012: .

This idea of defending regimes based on false insight and faulty perceptions should end.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on July 27, 2015, 01:31:34 AM
 :offtopic:

A Russian car is a joke, unless you consider the Lada Nivea.

Avvy, would it be this:



with heaps of that




 :whistleinnoc:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 27, 2015, 01:59:27 AM
Texan77 and others might want to Google the term 'competitive devaluation'  and learn about FX a little more. Specifically one might then learn about why Russian strategy,  in respect of the ruble,  which has been in play for several years has been so effective for that country.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 27, 2015, 08:25:46 AM
@ Andrewfi : You expect too much from simple american minds.  :laugh:

I am sure you have noticed certain people mixing up the Deficit of $19 Trillion with the US GDP
of $17 Trillion financed by the fed QE etc

Question to the Americans: Why the American President phoned twice to speak to the Greek PM, Tsipras, during the EU head of States meeting in Brussels, on the 17 hours overnight negotiations, interrupted the meeting for 30 minutes, each time and asked him to sign an agreement, before the Tokyo markets opened, making him to capitulate and sign, finally his Political death warrant?

I am sure most of you maybe do not follow the Creek crisis, but I do and it was pretty obvious, looking at PM's face returning to the meeting, what Obama have told him! ........

Ok back to the mandate subject of American Foreign Policy.

For those who have time to read I suggest the following report:
Its American not Greek, not British not Russian.


 REBUILDING AMERICA’S DEFENSES

Strategy, Forces and Resources, For a New Century

A Report of The Project for the New American Century September 2000

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf)

With out looking to be reminded, the list that I posted previously was a small part that used before in a reply to the GUARDIAN paper but if you like to read a 70 page report about co-operation between China and Russia, happy to upload the PDF file, so you can be educated, before making silly comments.

May I remind you that USA and its vassals have tried to bankrupt Russia again, as they did when the USSR collapsed but this time ....... the rubble devalued 85% but Putin this time was ready..... and still is going on. You put so many sanctions together with your subordinates in he EU and at the end they have to pay the price.

Putin had to make adjustments to his budget, the US became self sufficient in OIL but the price of $60 a barrel has forced many Fraking companies to go out of business.   The Dollar has increased its value against the EURO but that is counter productive for the US. Many Russian Banks have issued BONDS (dept) in Rubbles and now Russia buy it back at 1/2 price.....

The US has a National trading Deficit of $19 Trillion and Russia only $7 Billion.

[attachimg=1]

Following the Greek and Ukrainian events, I came across a very nice AMERICAN book......
“Flashpoint in Ukraine” edited by Stefan Ledman.

According to the accepted narrative of the Western mainstream media, the crisis begun when the so-called fresh-faced young pro-democracy activists overturned what they believed was a brutal Russian-backed dictatorship which stood in Ukraine's way, keeping it from joining the European family of nations and sharing in its prosperity.

This led to the claimed "Russia's incursion into Ukraine" and what they called "its annexation of Crimea." However, 22 analysts with impeccable credentials were able to review the events that led up to the current crisis in Ukraine, and an entirely different story emerges.

The authors reveal the true aims of the backers of the military conflict and what they were willing to do in order to achieve their goals. This book, “Flashpoint in Ukraine”, of course, went unnoticed by the US and European mainstream media.

In his chapter "The new Cold War’s Ukraine Gambit", Michael Hudson, a world-famous research professor of economics at University of Missouri, Kansas City explains what the conflict is actually all about.

"The object is the same as that of military conquest: appropriation of land and basic infrastructure, and the rents that can be extracted as tribute," he writes. "In today’s world this is taken mainly in the form of debt service and privatization. That is how neoliberalism works, subduing economies by indebting their governments and using unpayably high debts as a lever to pry away the public domain at distress prices.

"The Western leaders have left Ukraine looking like a Northern Hemisphere Nigeria. Real wages plunged by more than 75 percent from their 1991 level wages already by 1998 and have stagnated ever since. This 'cheap labor' makes Ukraine appealing to European investors, who now are making their own move to obtain what Ukraine’s oligarchs have grabitized," the professor writes. "The West has made it clear that it will help these individuals convert their takings into cash and move it safely into Western banks, luxury properties and other nouveau riches assets."

"From a military vantage point, the New Cold War aims to prevent revenue from these privatized assets from being used to rebuild, re-industrialize, and hence potentially to re-militarize the Russian and Near Abroad economies. This is why US strategists have moved to pry Ukraine out of the Russian orbit. The dream is to achieve the Cold War’s coup de grace along the lines outlined by Zbigniew Brzezinski in his 1997 Grand Chessboard: 'Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire. The aim is to break as much of Ukraine as possible out of the Russian orbit and to draw it into the West, and into NATO itself.''


John McMurtry, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the University of Guelph, Canada, writes:

"Russia’s 'designs to take the whole of Ukraine' is again a US projection of its own objective, as in the old days when a 'world rule plot' was attributed to the former USSR,"

"Financial contracts and assets are violated by one side alone. Hate campaigns without evidence go one way. Uprisings have been mass murderous from the US-coup side and long without harm from the resisting side. Russia is behind its own borders, and the US deploys threats, covert operations and mercenaries from thousands of miles away,"


He also notes that the reversal of blame is always the US method of pretext and justification.

This is why Russia is pervasively vilified in the mass media, and Canada’s big-oil regime chimes in along with the UK. As always, denunciation rules without reasoned understanding. As always, the US-led financial and military forces of private money-power expansion move behind the abomination of designated enemies.

"The reverse blame of Putin and Russia by corporate media and states — which I diagnose as a defining psych op of the US war party — has deep US-led interests behind it. It propels the geostrategic economic and military war of movement through East Europe to Russia. It is the indispensable big lie to mask their set up for foreign financial predation. A big pay-off matrix looms in Ukraine for US-led arms corporations and military services, agribusiness and GMO’s, speculator funds on debts and currency, monopoly providers of privatized social services, Big Oil frackers for newly discovered rich deposits, junk food suppliers like Poroshenko in US-frankenfood alliance, and – last but not least — the IMF money party waging a war of dispossession by financial means," the author writes.

After a group of ethnic Russians living in Crimea voted to become part of Russia, the Russian military claimed control over its own naval base there, that the US-NATO had been lusting to steal after the unlawful overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected sovereign government.

Ever since it’s been non-stop lies and propaganda propagated to demonize Putin as the aggressor when in fact all along it’s the American Empire that’s been recklessly pushing what could end up World War III against a nuclear powered Russia. With US-NATO missiles installed on Russia’s doorstep in virtually every former Soviet eastern bloc nation, hemming Russia in, who’s really the aggressor here?

[attachimg=2]

I am sure all the astute readers on this board must have noticed the comments emanating from over the pond all start the same way.......eg ... after the aggression of Putin or something similar because that is, what is been given to them by their MM propaganda and of course they learn to copy this tactic, REVERSING THE BLAME to Putin or Russia, before they even wrote anything else. They obviously think we are morons and brain dead!

I can see Manny and Andrew laughing their heads off ..... with such stupidity.

  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 27, 2015, 08:42:19 AM
No Wiz, I don't laugh, it isn't very funny. The situation is serious and the conditions dangerous. I am saddened that so few people have even rudimentary understanding of matters of great import - Texan77's ignorance is typical and not the worst that one sees. Of course ignorance is an issue but worse is the considered dishonesty of other people, some of whom post here.

People like Texan77 who do not understand that which they parrot as fact have no way to understand that they are being lied to and that their prejudices are being pandered to and enflamed by those who have no good outcome in mind for them.

Sadly though, until and unless folks like Texan77 bestir themselves to come to an understanding based upon knowledge then there's little that can happen to cause a positive change in the US and, of course, it is true that one can quite reasonably come to a knowledgeable conclusion that what the US is up to is, for the US a good thing and beneficial to the nation and state of the United States.
At least one can have a rational discussion with those folks, even as one disagrees with them. The same is not true when considering those with a considerable knowledge deficit.

For example in the case above - if Texan77 had even a cursory knowledge of the topic he'd not have posted as he did because he'd have known of the effects of quantitative easing, he'd know of the effects of a 'strong' dollar, he'd know about Russia's management of their currency and how they used a planned devaluation to reduce external debt and how devaluation secured Russia's ruble revenues even as the dollar 'strengthened'.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 27, 2015, 09:12:18 AM
No Wiz, I don't laugh, it isn't very funny. The situation is serious and the conditions dangerous. I am saddened that so few people have even rudimentary understanding of matters of great import - Texan77's ignorance is typical and not the worst that one sees. Of course ignorance is an issue but worse is the considered dishonesty of other people, some of whom post here.

People like Texan77 who do not understand that which they parrot as fact have no way to understand that they are being lied to and that their prejudices are being pandered to and enflamed by those who have no good outcome in mind for them.

Sadly though, until and unless folks like Texan77 bestir themselves to come to an understanding based upon knowledge then there's little that can happen to cause a positive change in the US and, of course, it is true that one can quite reasonably come to a knowledgeable conclusion that what the US is up to is, for the US a good thing and beneficial to the nation and state of the United States.
At least one can have a rational discussion with those folks, even as one disagrees with them. The same is not true when considering those with a considerable knowledge deficit.

For example in the case above - if Texan77 had even a cursory knowledge of the topic he'd not have posted as he did because he'd have known of the effects of quantitative easing, he'd know of the effects of a 'strong' dollar, he'd know about Russia's management of their currency and how they used a planned devaluation to reduce external debt and how devaluation secured Russia's ruble revenues even as the dollar 'strengthened'.

A man who parrots the propaganda of a regime with a junk bond credit rating wants to lecture Texan about economics, gotta love it.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 27, 2015, 09:19:05 AM
Ant, what are you going on about?

Have a go now here's your chance to shine.
With which of my points would you disagree and why would you disagree with them?
What is the correct interpretation of those factual points.

Here's a starter for you: what do you know about competitive devaluation, what are the effects upon the currency pairs involved in the process and how does the currency forced into appreciation benefit?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 27, 2015, 09:21:34 AM
Wizar, Can we assume you took a haircut in either the Greece or Cyprus. This would partially explain your hatred directed towards America. Perhaps you are up the Creek without a paddle?

To explain the Western viewpoint I will quote something I found regarding Russia recently. “The harsh gifts of fate have left their stamp on the inhabitants of the Kremlin. A certain somber obstinacy, a sort of primitive ferocity, a background of savage harshness, which under the sway of circumstances might become implacable and even ruthless, a coldly indomitable force that would rather wreck the world than yield, the indestructible instinct of the barbarian horde still persisting in an only half civilized nation.

What terrible masters would the Russians be if ever they should spread the might of their rule over other countries. A polar despotism, a tyranny such as the world has not yet known, silent as the darkness, keen as ice, unfeeling as bronze, a slavery without compensations or relief.”
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on July 27, 2015, 09:31:44 AM
To explain the Western viewpoint I will quote something I found regarding Russia recently.

Avvy, you just recently found  F.J.P. Veale?  :eeekk:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 27, 2015, 11:02:23 AM
I have no intention to get involved in any arguments or debate with persons that throwing personal insults, which for me is a red flag. I simply ignore them and it is to the moderator to keep them in order. My view is, when debating a subject you do not attack the person but you dispute, if you disagree their comments.

Wiz, (Edit by wiz) You give way to much credit to America and its surveillance. But in fact the evidence coming from the Kremlin has changed on a rather daily basis from the time of the incident. The Dutch and Australians are heading the investigation, with input from Russia and other countries.

I must say I was raised not to ignore those around you, it is rude.

I think my message was very clear. I have been around these boards for years, and had my plentiful of such insults and arguments. Now getting older and wiser..... I am NOT going to start again.

If you think is rude to ignore rude posters why it;s not rude to post personal attacks and insults?

I do not use bad language and I expect my interlocutors to do the same, otherwise I ignore them. We can have our debates on civilised behaviour. Anything wrong with that?

The last time I had a haircut... was the other day I visited my barber.

Back in the 70's I moved from Greece to England and later when my mother died any valuable assets too, , I personally I have nothing to loose but I do love my birth country and feel sorry for the people. BTW the picture presenting about the Greek people and most of the bad comments in the media..... are far away from the truth. For example. The Greeks don't pay taxes and expect the Germans to foot the bill of their loans...... most of the Greeks pay taxes and it is only the Elit that doesn't! The Greek have been working hard sometime two shifts and small family business... and have invested in housing, as secure investment ...... where most of the Germans pay rent! ... All the money of the Bailout Loans did not go to Greece but to save the German, Frence and British banks. Any how that is another subject.........Sorry.

BTW all these subjects, I have debated in other places and have the copies so.....it;s easy to modify and post here. As you must realise I have time to read books.... and I think I have learned a lot by reading. Already I said that I prefer to visit few interesting good sites.

Quote
To explain the Western viewpoint I will quote something I found regarding Russia recently. “The harsh gifts of fate have left their stamp on the inhabitants of the Kremlin. A certain somber obstinacy, a sort of primitive ferocity, a background of savage harshness, which under the sway of circumstances might become implacable and even ruthless, a coldly indomitable force that would rather wreck the world than yield, the indestructible instinct of the barbarian horde still persisting in an only half civilized nation.

Have you read Russian history to undertand the conditions that they have been through, the past 200 years and then you can understand their attitudes and behaviour?

I have read a lot and keep looking around many things to understand them better, if I ever do.

As about my anti-American feelings are directed against their admin and not the people. You need to read Greek history to get to know why after the end of WWII till today the American foreign policy has influenced the political situation in Greece and you can see the results today.

 >:(

They allow Germany to make Greece a protectorate, by ordering the PM to sign the new Bail out of 92 billions euro and that is unacceptable to Greeks. I fear that blood shed will happen pretty soon.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 27, 2015, 05:43:49 PM
To explain the Western viewpoint I will quote something I found regarding Russia recently.

Avvy, you just recently found  F.J.P. Veale?  :eeekk:

Not Veale, he is a troubling part of the revisionist historians.

The quote is from Henri-Frédéric Amiel written in 1856. He was a reasonable poet and a keen observer.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on July 28, 2015, 06:21:55 PM
One would think if the Baltic states felt there was no threat, then why all the unnecessary preparation?

Amid Russian Military Aggression, US Builds Roads, Training Facilities In 6 Eastern European Nations

http://www.ibtimes.com/amid-russian-military-aggression-us-builds-roads-training-facilities-6-eastern-2026476
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 28, 2015, 07:18:47 PM
Many Russian Banks have issued BONDS (dept) in Rubbles and now Russia buy it back at 1/2 price.....

Er um Wiz . . . . . . . .

What do you think the USA is going to be able to do with the billions and billions of dollars of government bonds that have been issued with sub 1% coupon values over the past 5-7 years?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on July 28, 2015, 11:20:24 PM

Not Veale, he is a troubling part of the revisionist historians.

The quote is from Henri-Frédéric Amiel written in 1856. He was a reasonable poet and a keen observer.
Oh, cool, was close!  ;D Father is reading some of his (Veale's) stuff, just yesterday shared on Mongol conquest, i thought it sounded familiar.

Great wording (Amiel's) & typical of poets catastrophization  :)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on July 28, 2015, 11:49:22 PM
Many Russian Banks have issued BONDS (dept) in Rubbles and now Russia buy it back at 1/2 price.....

Er um Wiz . . . . . . . .

What do you think the USA is going to be able to do with the billions and billions of dollars of government bonds that have been issued with sub 1% coupon values over the past 5-7 years?

Do you think the Chinese are going to pay their debt?

But the truth of the matter is that healthy economies and governments simply do not need $600 billion of forced debt restructuring and $500 billion in stock market support.

The Chinese economic boom since the global financial crisis in 2008 has been fueled primarily by debt -- with total debt levels surpassing the United States.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/28/opinions/balding-china-stock-market/index.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 12:29:26 AM
Texan77 and others might want to Google the term 'competitive devaluation'  and learn about FX a little more. Specifically one might then learn about why Russian strategy,  in respect of the ruble,  which has been in play for several years has been so effective for that country.

I strongly beg to differ

when the rouble was consistently 45 roubles to the GBP - interest rates were quite low and Russians were borrowing like crazy.

When the run on the rouble started the Russian Central Bank was taking drastic action to support the rouble and raised interest rates through the roof...as they have been stepped down, and the oil price has gone on the slide - again - the rouble is losing value..

At it's lowest it hit over 110 - nearly three time down and it is back to being two times worse.

Please explain to the small businesses having to buy in with a weak currency - or the shoppers - as the price of produce from outside Russia becomes ever more expensive.

On one hand a weak rouble would appear to be great for someone getting paid in GBP... and spending here - but I see Russians pulling their kids from private schools and they do not share you 'optimism'

On the ground, a VERY weak rouble is and -still - high interest rates are NOT a good thing

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 29, 2015, 01:42:31 AM
Please explain to the small businesses having to buy in with a weak currency - or the shoppers - as the price of produce from outside Russia becomes ever more expensive.

Buying local products and/or sourcing from cheaper countries.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 01:53:01 AM

Buying local products and/or sourcing from cheaper countries.

As I am finding - sourcing from China - when it comes to tools - means clones that are awful...  I don't see Russians queuing to buy Ladas or any locally made smartphones

Yesterday, we bought oranges from Lithuania  ? and at the market we bought cheese that was German - when questioned the lady claimed it came via Abkhazia   :chuckle:

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on July 29, 2015, 01:53:37 AM

Please explain to the small businesses having to buy in with a weak currency - or the shoppers - as the price of produce from outside Russia becomes ever more expensive.

Buying local products and/or sourcing from cheaper countries.

Which drives prices up depending on elasticity


.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 29, 2015, 01:55:42 AM
As I am finding - sourcing from China - when it comes to tools - means clones that are awful... 

Only if you use the wrong places. Good Chinese factories can make anything as well as anyone. Especially if they copy it. Muppets and incompetent people make rubbish anywhere.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 02:15:00 AM

Only if you use the wrong places. Good Chinese factories can make anything as well as anyone. Especially if they copy it. Muppets and incompetent people make rubbish anywhere.

Manny, that I encounter this problem in many places, here - is a sad reflection on the business practices. I cannot tell they are poor quality until I try 'em.

I can say that I received a refund - when I complained about the quality - without a quibble.

Russia is not the only nation buying crap - but some of the places selling it - you would not expect - judging by the stores appearance - better.

Nice bit of deflection, though

When it comes to food - I would rather buy from a Russian food market than a UK supermarket

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 29, 2015, 02:39:02 AM

Please explain to the small businesses having to buy in with a weak currency - or the shoppers - as the price of produce from outside Russia becomes ever more expensive.

Buying local products and/or sourcing from cheaper countries.

Which drives prices up depending on elasticity

How does local sourcing drive prices up?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 03:15:02 AM
Come on Manny, this the first thing we learn when running a business - no competition  - higher prices

Based on salaries here and the UK - produce that is 'sanctioned' - e.g Dairy produce such as Milk / cheese / butter is much more expensive in Russia.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 29, 2015, 04:24:48 AM
. . . but I see Russians pulling their kids from private schools and they do not share you 'optimism'

While I have not looked for statistics, in the town in CT where I have a home there is a growing influx of both Chinese and Russian high school students. The school is rather unique while free for residents as a town school it is not a public school. And they offer an IB diploma.

In England, and yes I mean England, my daughter moved from one elite school to another one that offered an IB diploma, both schools has seen a steady increase of students from the BRICS and this includes Russia and China.


high interest rates are NOT a good thing

High interest rates are never a good thing for any economy.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 04:39:31 AM
. . . but I see Russians pulling their kids from private schools and they do not share you 'optimism'

While I have not looked for statistics, both in the town in CT where I have a home there is a growing influx of both Chinese and Russian high school students. The school is rather unique while free for residents as a town school it is not a public school. And they offer an IB diploma

In England, and yes I mean England my daughter moved from one elite school to another one that offered an IB diploma, both schools has seen a steady increase of students from the BRICS and this includes Russia and China.




AvdHdb

1/ My ex and I ran a biz placing - MAINLY FSU kids in English schools ..

2/ One of our friends is the marketing person for one such school - it was she that gave us the idea ... My info is from March 15 - RU / UA pupils had not renewed / were behind with fees and Madam was off drumming up replacement students in the far east

It WAS the case that FSU students were limited - as many schools felt they needed to maintain a balance of foreign nationals - esp. from China and FSU .

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 29, 2015, 04:56:26 AM
. . . but I see Russians pulling their kids from private schools and they do not share you 'optimism'

While I have not looked for statistics, both in the town in CT where I have a home there is a growing influx of both Chinese and Russian high school students. The school is rather unique while free for residents as a town school it is not a public school. And they offer an IB diploma

In England, and yes I mean England my daughter moved from one elite school to another one that offered an IB diploma, both schools has seen a steady increase of students from the BRICS and this includes Russia and China.




AvdHdb

1/ My ex and I ran a biz placing - MAINLY FSU kids in English schools ..

2/ One of our friends is the marketing person for one such school - it was she that gave us the idea ... My info is from March 15 - RU / UA pupils had not renewed / were behind with fees and Madam was off drumming up replacement students in the far east

It WAS the case that FSU students were limited - as many schools felt they needed to maintain a balance of foreign nationals - esp. from China and FSU .

Just a guess most schools have some way a maintaining a balance. Qutas (a dirty word in America) if you want to call them that. The schools that daughter attend(ed) would be on the elite side of the spectrum.

The best/worst story was a student from Moscow who could not follow when he arrived any of the classes in England. It turned out a dubbelganger took the entry exam in Moscow.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on July 29, 2015, 05:43:48 AM
The best/worst story was a student from Moscow who could not follow when he arrived any of the classes in England. It turned out a dubbelganger took the entry exam in Moscow.

Something similar happened to me  ;D Upon enrolling my first English course (no grades, it was a summer course, it didn't matter what was the result/ no diplomas), they sent me a test in English which i had no time to do and passed to a friend who was fluent... Lo and behold, course commences, i am at pre-professional level 8 (out of 9 levels  :eeekk: ), whereas realistically i should have been at level 3 or 4... I caught up in a bit more than a month, had to study like crazy though, and meanwhile everyone thought i was just too shy to participate in the classes  ;D For me it turned out for the best though lol
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 29, 2015, 11:11:04 AM
Come on Manny, this the first thing we learn when running a business - no competition  - higher prices

Sourcing locally doesn't usually mean no competition. Slightly wrong concept there. Clearly, what you and I first learned about running a business differs somewhat.

Based on salaries here and the UK - produce that is 'sanctioned' - e.g Dairy produce such as Milk / cheese / butter is much more expensive in Russia.

Why, because Russia has no cows?  :chuckle:

Who buys enough cheese, milk or butter for a slight price increase to matter that much anyway? The inflation you see is the lull between sanctions and national supply and alternative imports making up for the shortfall. The free market will dictate prices ultimately, if price is a factor in making sales.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 11:19:25 AM
Nice 'spin', Manny.... More than a year has passed and butter, milk and cheese were only examples.  The prices keep increasing.

In the UK Cheese is upwards of 5 GBP / Kg..decent ..'non processed ' decent stuff is about 50 perecent more..  In Russia..with wages about 4ctimes less it is more expensive than the UK...at 7.50 to 10 GBP for the equiv.



.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 29, 2015, 11:27:18 AM
Nice 'spin', Manny.... More than a year has passed and butter, milk and cheese were only examples.  The prices keep increasing.

In the UK Cheese is upwards of 5 GBP / Kg..decent ..'non processed ' decent stuff is about 50 perecent more..  In Russia..with wages about 4ctimes less it is more expensive than the UK...at 7.50 to 10 GBP for the equiv.

Cheese is not the defining factor in an an economy. Many things are unaffected by sanctions. Many things bypass sanctions or come from places where they are not in force. Incoming foreign money buys twice as many Roubles as it did. Put down the Guardian.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 29, 2015, 11:43:35 AM
Once again it is but one example of prices being very high and still increasing .when wages and pensions aren't keeping up.

If you check back I was stating that this would be a big headache for Putin..  That was before his 'inspired ' decision to take over Crimea and blame everything on 'sanctions' 

You forget I am HERE ...In Russia.. ... no need to read the 'journal' Snowden chose to spill to and RT failed to mention that Putin was 'evasive' re his answers re spying on RU citizens..needed further investigating..

I think it is healthy to read all sorts of publications.. ))

You mistake ...as ever..was presuming it is my fav read...





.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 29, 2015, 11:56:30 AM
Dairy output is already increased significantly however it takes longer to raise a cheesemaker (cow or goat) than it does to raise a field of grass (fuel for the cheesemaker) that means, as Manny suggested, a lag between the imposition of sanctions and local supply taking up all the slack.

As people who have lived in new countries know when a new market is entered the initial costs tend to be higher and then to fall away as market skills increase. Much the same happens with import substitution.

In the longer term it is to be expected that those prices will fall. If I remember correctly, in Crimea a new plant for the production of mozzarella cheese has been opened. There will be similar such developments across Russia and the government has set aside new funds specifically for the purpose of providing access to low cost debt funding to ease the process of development.

Whilst Russian policy is by no means autarkic it is clear that some product areas will be reserved for domestic production. Russia is, due to its social and economic structure, one of the few countires in the world that can be expected to manage autarky. The UK and US are examples of countries where that is not possible.

Actually, in respect of pensions, it is already government policy to link them to real inflation - that is something that countries such as the UK and US can not manage. Crimean pensioners and other beneficiaries of state incomes are already pretty well chuffed. Others will not suffer, except as a lag, but as long as policy and implementation are in place then there is no reason to worry. As with most people on cost of living based incomes they will have a cyclic situation where sometimes they run behind and sometimes ahead of costs averaging out over a full cycle - a cycle that has not yet run its first period.

It should be understood that pensioners in Russia have already done pretty well in relative terms and while we all wish we had more money there will not be folks living in conditions similar to even only a few years ago.
Inflation is already falling, incomes are rising.

Time to stop imagining stuff Alfy!
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 29, 2015, 01:25:49 PM
Dairy output is already increased significantly however it takes longer to raise a cheesemaker (cow or goat) than it does to raise a field of grass (fuel for the cheesemaker) that means, as Manny suggested, a lag between the imposition of sanctions and local supply taking up all the slack. 

So you are telling us that the Russian economy is improving because of an increase in dairy production?

Didn't you read what the professional fund managers said about the Russian economy?  Oil prices below $90 a barrel and the hardships only increase week after week . . . . . . . . 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on July 29, 2015, 01:47:06 PM
Who says there are no hardships. Of course there are. The Rr has lost value, and people on fixed income have lost purchasing power. But the reason the results of sanctions and counter sanctions are not catastrophic, is that ordinary citizens have no credit to pay back, like mortgages. I imagine that if these conditions had happened in Britain or the US, there would have been a catastrophic meltdown, and credit crunch.
It is funny to see here in the stans, the domino effects.
The cotton crops have been ordered cut by the government, and replaced by fruits, which are now being shipped to Russia. Fruit prices here are very high. Local apples sell for 4.5 dollars a kilo. Meat also got more expensive.
In addition, Russia has put restrictions on foreign workers from the stans. They have now to pay a hefty sum for a work permit, or have 3 days to deportation. This could be due to economic hardships, or to the fact that nearly one million Ukrainian have taken residence in Russia. I don't have the answer on this one.
But as far as a crisis in a country like Russia happens, it will sort itself out, through source replacement, black market, and lower demand through elasticity.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on July 29, 2015, 02:32:41 PM
While it is a cheesy topic AndrewFi and Moby have accidentally started a new topic that perhaps should stand alone. It certainly is a better thread than all the banter over those silly little countries along the Baltic Sea.

My guess it should be split at posting #101 and be called 101 economic realities of cheese and world economies.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 29, 2015, 03:30:31 PM
Shakespeare, you are not so daft as to think that my using the example already given to make a point is the entire picture so don't even try to do so again.

I read those reports, you will note I asked a question of you - as yet unanswered. It was a rhetorical question not demanding you get your calculator out but doing so might have been instructive. ;)

However let me ask you an explicitly rhetorical question: Do you think that the US economy is in great shape for now and the coming years? If, as is likely, if you are aware of the fundamentals of the economy then you'd answer in the negative. When you objectively consider those same fundamental factors in the Russian case then you'd reach a different assessment of the Russian situation.

The Russian economy is undergoing a time of severe change, probably greater in degree and scope than the UK underwent from the end of the 1970's. During those years the UK economy was fundamentally altered to the eventual benefit of pretty much everyone here. During that process of reshaping there were winners and losers, there was short term and some long term loss but the structural changes were such that not even opponents of the government of the time were willing to turn them back or even change them.

That is the situation in Russia, except that they start from a fundamentally more sound position than the UK did and with a significantly greater degree of social cohesion. That social cohesion is what will provide the necessary buffer if there are setbacks along the way - just as happened in the UK, with a less united nation.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 29, 2015, 03:39:17 PM
I read those reports, you will note I asked a question of you - as yet unanswered. It was a rhetorical question not demanding you get your calculator out but doing so might have been instructive.

To my knowledge, the majority of the fund holdings are purchased and sold on Russian exchanges for rubles and then converted into dollars.  The currency risk is in all probability hedged using off exchange OTC options.  A few of the stocks are traded as ADR (American Depository Receipts) in major US exchanges where currency fluctuation is not a factor. 

Big difference between Great Britain which is a multi-factor economy and Russia where the the vast majority of exports are petroleum based.   
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 29, 2015, 03:47:56 PM

However let me ask you an explicitly rhetorical question: Do you think that the US economy is in great shape for now and the coming years?

I think the Presidential election of 2016 is going to be critical.  If a Republican is elected (likely) and that party maintains control of both legislative branches (also likely), then much of the irresponsible actions of Obama and his cabinet officers over the past 8 years can be undone, reversed and corrected with the results being the economy can be put back into a proper growth mode.

If our country has to suffer 4 or 8 more years with a Democrat as our President and the resulting restraints they place on economic growth, then your projections of doom become much more feasible.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 29, 2015, 04:34:58 PM
But the reason the results of sanctions and counter sanctions are not catastrophic, is that ordinary citizens have no credit to pay back, like mortgages. I imagine that if these conditions had happened in Britain or the US, there would have been a catastrophic meltdown, and credit crunch.

But as far as a crisis in a country like Russia happens, it will sort itself out, through source replacement, black market, and lower demand through elasticity.

^^ This.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Donhollio on July 29, 2015, 05:18:10 PM

I am sure all the astute readers on this board must have noticed the comments emanating from over the pond all start the same way.......eg ... after the aggression of Putin or something similar because that is, what is been given to them by their MM propaganda and of course they learn to copy this tactic, REVERSING THE BLAME to Putin or Russia, before they even wrote anything else. They obviously think we are morons and brain dead!

 Well your past leaders did kill about 60 million people in the 20th century. I guess its lost on you Euro citizens.
 
 If you guys wish to avoid the early live tweets from the Russian side or WTF you want to call them after the plane was shot down, and all the backtracking from Russia, then go ahead. If you Euro boys think nothing is wrong with a leader rigging elections and killing off his critics, then go right ahead with your belief that we over here are out to lunch.
 If you find Putin to be a great leader instilling pride into the RF citizens through his silly posturing on the worlds stage. 'reclaiming' lands 'rightfully' ethnic Russian....wait who was that German leader in the 1930's? Anyway if you Euro boys wish to see the CCCP back in your sunrise, and from the drivel I read here I can see many do, then go have a glass of kavass, and toast to the new Europe. 
 I know I really miss those 1980's, all the the hostility and nuke bomb buildup, shit, I'm getting choked up just thinking of those defectors from the CCCP to Canada and the US!


Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 29, 2015, 07:54:54 PM

I am sure all the astute readers on this board must have noticed the comments emanating from over the pond all start the same way.......eg ... after the aggression of Putin or something similar because that is, what is been given to them by their MM propaganda and of course they learn to copy this tactic, REVERSING THE BLAME to Putin or Russia, before they even wrote anything else. They obviously think we are morons and brain dead!

 Well your past leaders did kill about 60 million people in the 20th century. I guess its lost on you Euro citizens.
 
 If you guys wish to avoid the early live tweets from the Russian side or WTF you want to call them after the plane was shot down, and all the backtracking from Russia, then go ahead. If you Euro boys think nothing is wrong with a leader rigging elections and killing off his critics, then go right ahead with your belief that we over here are out to lunch.
 If you find Putin to be a great leader instilling pride into the RF citizens through his silly posturing on the worlds stage. 'reclaiming' lands 'rightfully' ethnic Russian....wait who was that German leader in the 1930's? Anyway if you Euro boys wish to see the CCCP back in your sunrise, and from the drivel I read here I can see many do, then go have a glass of kavass, and toast to the new Europe. 
 I know I really miss those 1980's, all the the hostility and nuke bomb buildup, shit, I'm getting choked up just thinking of those defectors from the CCCP to Canada and the US!


 :BEER:    It boils down to a complete lack of common sense and jealousy of the West, in particular the USA.

               Thankfully it seems it's going to be Canada and others who arm Ukraine and not the USA...so get prepared.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on July 30, 2015, 12:53:23 AM
Based on recent historical statements, in Iraq especially, for the US, it is mission accomplished in Ukraine. They got all they wanted. They dragged Europe into a mess, inflicted economic hardship to Russia, created sanctions that prevented France to sell a carrier to Russia, overall, a great success.
Now, the US will move on to other more pressing matters.
Just today, they are asking Europe to do more to help contain China in the China Sea dispute. Let's see how Europe will respond...
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 30, 2015, 01:10:43 AM
Cdnexpat, I have made this point before, the economic action against Russia was designed from the context of a US perspective and evidently with a lack of knowledge. Yes, had those sanctions been enacted in the US or UK the results would have been disastrous. In Russia they were not because the economy is fundamentally more sound and yes, debt is at the heart of the issue.

The difference is not about which party is in power in the US, that's a charade. The US economy is broken right now. The significant change, as I see it, is that a managed decline process that was inclusive of the US has now broken down due to power changes within the US and that now puts us in a much more 'dynamic' situation where the US will flail about and destabilise the world rather than, as before, work with world powers to manage the US economy into a new global paradigm where it's stature would be recognised and largely welcomed to a much less comfortable role for the United States. Basically the United States will be sent to the naughty corner. That process is under way right now.

====
Shakespeare I was not referring to currency risk as a read of my words will show you. That was not the point. What you may have misunderstood is the effect that you see in dollars is very different from the perspective of the ruble. In that regard you made a similar basic error to those other commentators and sanctions planners who have been predicting doom and gloom in Russia.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 30, 2015, 02:47:34 AM
Cdnexpat, I have made this point before

..and you were inaccurate and wrong, then, too ..Here we ago again....  :Zzzzsleep:


the economic action against Russia was designed from the context of a US perspective and evidently with a lack of knowledge.

Right.... The EU Nations, Canada, Japan, N Australia, etc.,  all 'kowtowed' to US 'bullying' - not once - but twice   :chuckle:


Yes, had those sanctions been enacted in the US or UK the results would have been disastrous. In Russia they were not because the economy is fundamentally more sound and yes, debt is at the heart of the issue.

Remind us the the nature of the sanctions, who they targeted and their aim, andrewfi - this is your chance to 'shine'  :chuckle:


Shakespeare I was not referring to currency risk as a read of my words will show you. That was not the point. What you may have misunderstood is the effect that you see in dollars is very different from the perspective of the ruble. In that regard you made a similar basic error to those other commentators and sanctions planners who have been predicting doom and gloom in Russia.

But your words are not 'honest' - they are blind and biased and have no basis in fact when examined.

The rouble exchange rate .... what does it reflect ? 

Thank you ....
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 30, 2015, 05:01:28 AM
Cdnexpat, I have made this point before, the economic action against Russia was designed from the context of a US perspective and evidently with a lack of knowledge. Yes, had those sanctions been enacted in the US or UK the results would have been disastrous. In Russia they were not because the economy is fundamentally more sound and yes, debt is at the heart of the issue.

The difference is not about which party is in power in the US, that's a charade. The US economy is broken right now. The significant change, as I see it, is that a managed decline process that was inclusive of the US has now broken down due to power changes within the US and that now puts us in a much more 'dynamic' situation where the US will flail about and destabilise the world rather than, as before, work with world powers to manage the US economy into a new global paradigm where it's stature would be recognised and largely welcomed to a much less comfortable role for the United States. Basically the United States will be sent to the naughty corner. That process is under way right now.

====
Shakespeare I was not referring to currency risk as a read of my words will show you. That was not the point. What you may have misunderstood is the effect that you see in dollars is very different from the perspective of the ruble. In that regard you made a similar basic error to those other commentators and sanctions planners who have been predicting doom and gloom in Russia.

Well said Andrew and totally agree with you.  :thumbsup:

THE ONLY THING THAT THE US EXPORTS, IT'S DEBT THAT THE FED PRODUSES OUT OF THIN AIR, AND NOT MUCH ELSE.

Certain people cannot see the impending financial disaster and where the actions of the US Administration can lead to. The artificial price of the Dollar is not helping the US economy and reading some comments by American economists, the future of the Dollar as the Reserve Currency appears to be no good.

Obama has been trying hard to establish the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) agreement, in secrecy, and that would be the end of the current EU.

America is slowly collapsing, you said, and I agree. Their economy is a ponzi scheme, propped up by world use of the dollar. However, Russia, Iran, China and some other BRICS countries are leading a long overdue de-dollarisation of the world.

A strong economy needs to manufacture stuff and export. To our American friends, I suggest to take a look at their STATS and will see the truth, poverty, crime, etc going up.......not a good picture. As about their Democratic freedoms..... the pictures on our TV, daily, show a Police state and that say it all.

In Europe, what do we actually buy that is made in America?

Something that most Americans don’t get is just how little we see of American products. Actually, many of us over here in civilisation don’t realise it either.

Almost everything that we think is a US product is not. I bet you could go through your home and not find a single item that originated within the US.

US brand cars: made in Europe or Russia
US brand iThings: made in China
US food products: made in Europe
US branded clothes: made in China
US branded electronics: made in China or Vietnam
US branded fuel: Russia, Middle East but not USA

They declared the US self sufficient in Oil, promising the EU to export oil and gas, but they have no port made for LNG transport boats neither the facilities for conversion to LNG. While trying to destroy the Rubble, same trick as when the Russian economy collapsed in 1989, they destroyed small Fracking companies, financed by junk funds, when the price went below $70.

They also discovered that the Russian economy, apart from a few hiccups wasn't destroyed and Putin is laughing all the way for the Russian banks, buying back at 1/2 price all bank bonds in Russian Rubble's.

In actual fact, I was reading the other day Russia is subsiding producers to increase food production in its effort to become self sufficient. and guess what, the Greeks fruit producers are happy, because a Greek/Russian oligarch, Ivan Savidis, established a company in Greece to export all the fruit production they can to Russia. without breaking the EU Rules. :laugh:

In the US, outside of consumer goods, the US exports a fair chunk of commodities (odd for a developed economy) and machine tools etc., but even that stuff is becoming US branded global manufacturers.

The US are considering counting goods made overseas and sold with a US brand on them as US exports, god knows how that’s work as it mean double counting almost everything  a Chinese export becomes, at the same time, a US export.

The superpower is exposed to all corners of the planet, trying to maintain its global hegemony. Conflicts with Russia, competes with China, is trying not to loose its protectorate, Europe, under the leadership of the High Commissioner (Germany), defend the dollar against the attacks from the BRICS, battling for the  petrodollar, is fighting in the Middle East, is involved in Africa and so on.

Therefore, it could be assumed that it is reasonable to collapse, with many "open fronts". However, almost always the major powers are destroyed by their own selves - from the uprisings inside their country.


OK break is over, back to my garden for some more reading and productive work.  :)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 30, 2015, 06:47:16 AM
Alfy moby we get it, you are bored, you have nothing better to do than to post rubbish. Please do not expect reasonable people do join with you in your dive down into a lonely, poverty stricken rabbit hole.

For that reason, when you post silly stuff about topics that you neither understand or know anything about it is unlikely that you will get a response; you are likely to find that you are shouting into an empty room.

That's OK if all you wish to demonstrate with your empty minded powerposting is your boredom, but is that the impression that you REALLY want to give - to show the world that you are a do-nothing wastrel whose only function is to run his current girlfriend's target's errands?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on July 30, 2015, 07:00:40 AM
You guys get on your band wagon and complain about the US. We do have a debt problem. But what none of you guys want to talk about so does everyone else. Yes I believe we are in the last 18 months of this before the world global finance system come to an end. But do not just blame the US. The Russian currency is not weak because of America but because of bad choices Russia is making. The stock market in China is not collapsing because of America but because of choices China made. Europe is not struggling because of America but because of their choices. China has already dumped over half of their US bonds to buy projects that are now worth much less than the bonds. China has canceled the big gas deal with Russia. Not a US problem we did not have anything to do with it. Oil prices collapsing maybe this has more to do with the early stages of the world wide recession that is just starting than something the US did. Also know nearly every other commodity in the world is also dropping in price. Once again recession causing over supply. 

Currencies of commodity base countries are becoming under stressed like Russia. Just look at Australia's currency. China over expanded using debt that was not sustainable and now that is coming to an end. China has done more to hurt Russia by causing the run up in Commodity prices then the fall then we did with the sanctions and everything else. No body want to talk about the miss management in China because they are not the big bad wolf.

Everything that goes wrong in the world you guys like to blame America. I think the world is going to get real bad so you guys will be able to do a lot of blaming. It is not completely the just the fault of the USA. Everybody loved the easy money and everybody is in debt.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on July 30, 2015, 07:39:17 AM
Texan77,  once again time to point out that you need to do some learning. Learn about the numbers,  learn to make comparisons and to understand what those comparisons mean.
Until you get the hang of the basics your extemporising means nothing,  indeed,  just don't do it!  Prepare first,  collect your data,  construct your argument and then do a sanity check.

I can't speak for others here but I certainly understand the consequences of the coming collapse over the pond,  it will touch us all.

Until blokes like you understand  what blokes like me understand there's no chance that the worst can be avoided for you,  or for me.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 30, 2015, 10:16:59 AM
America is slowly collapsing, you said, and I agree. Their economy is a ponzi scheme, propped up by world use of the dollar. However, Russia, Iran, China and some other BRICS countries are leading a long overdue de-dollarisation of the world.

Hey, don't pinch my words, use your own.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on July 30, 2015, 10:21:10 AM
Quote
Well your past leaders did kill about 60 million people in the 20th century. I guess its lost on you Euro citizens.
 
 If you guys wish to avoid the early live tweets from the Russian side or WTF you want to call them after the plane was shot down, and all the backtracking from Russia, then go ahead. If you Euro boys think nothing is wrong with a leader rigging elections and killing off his critics, then go right ahead with your belief that we over here are out to lunch.
 If you find Putin to be a great leader instilling pride into the RF citizens through his silly posturing on the worlds stage. 'reclaiming' lands 'rightfully' ethnic Russian....wait who was that German leader in the 1930's? Anyway if you Euro boys wish to see the CCCP back in your sunrise, and from the drivel I read here I can see many do, then go have a glass of kavass, and toast to the new Europe. 
 I know I really miss those 1980's, all the the hostility and nuke bomb buildup, shit, I'm getting choked up just thinking of those defectors from the CCCP to Canada and the US!

Nice post Don. 

My Eesti cousin said one thing that I thought was an interesting way to look at it.  Estonian's consider themselves to be "native" to their land since they have been there for 10000 years since the glaciers retreated.  So in the end it doesn't matter to them if Putin thinks they left the CCCP illegally or not...just look back further in time and there was a point or multiple points where Imperialist Russia or the USSR occupied them illegally in the first place which should never have happened. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 30, 2015, 10:23:46 AM
Estonian's consider themselves to be "native" to their land since they have been there for 10000 years since the glaciers retreated.

And still there are less than a million of them if you subtract the Russians. They must breed as slow as giant Pandas.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on July 30, 2015, 10:31:49 AM
Estonian's consider themselves to be "native" to their land since they have been there for 10000 years since the glaciers retreated.

And still there are less than a million of them if you subtract the Russians. They must breed as slow as giant Pandas.

Well I am sure a few wars and deportations might put a dent in population growth over time.  Some countries can live peacefully without rampant expansion to make themselves feel good...and some  :censored: ries only know expansion, conquering and behaving like a bad neighbor.  I know which place I would like to live. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on July 30, 2015, 10:32:21 AM
Quote
Well your past leaders did kill about 60 million people in the 20th century. I guess its lost on you Euro citizens.
 
 If you guys wish to avoid the early live tweets from the Russian side or WTF you want to call them after the plane was shot down, and all the backtracking from Russia, then go ahead. If you Euro boys think nothing is wrong with a leader rigging elections and killing off his critics, then go right ahead with your belief that we over here are out to lunch.
 If you find Putin to be a great leader instilling pride into the RF citizens through his silly posturing on the worlds stage. 'reclaiming' lands 'rightfully' ethnic Russian....wait who was that German leader in the 1930's? Anyway if you Euro boys wish to see the CCCP back in your sunrise, and from the drivel I read here I can see many do, then go have a glass of kavass, and toast to the new Europe. 
 I know I really miss those 1980's, all the the hostility and nuke bomb buildup, shit, I'm getting choked up just thinking of those defectors from the CCCP to Canada and the US!

Nice post Don. 

My Eesti cousin said one thing that I thought was an interesting way to look at it.  Estonian's consider themselves to be "native" to their land since they have been there for 10000 years since the glaciers retreated.  So in the end it doesn't matter to them if Putin thinks they left the CCCP illegally or not...just look back further in time and there was a point or multiple points where Imperialist Russia or the USSR occupied them illegally in the first place which should never have happened.
I thought the map was drawn up after the war, by all world powers. The US occupied all of Europe, and the USSR Eastern Europe, and whatever was left. The USSR folded, but the US is still holding its ground. :laugh:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on July 30, 2015, 10:35:59 AM
Estonian's consider themselves to be "native" to their land since they have been there for 10000 years since the glaciers retreated.

And still there are less than a million of them if you subtract the Russians. They must breed as slow as giant Pandas.

Well I am sure a few wars and deportations might put a dent in population growth over time.  Some countries can live peacefully without rampant expansion to make themselves feel good...and some  :censored: ries only know expansion, conquering and behaving like a bad neighbor.  I know which place I would like to live.
I make a point to read history, and even refresh my memory, when I write publicly on a forum.
Russia and the USSR were invaded twice, not long ago, with dire consequences. Actually, Hitler took the book from Napoleon. He failed the same way. :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on July 30, 2015, 10:36:38 AM
America is slowly collapsing, you said, and I agree. Their economy is a ponzi scheme, propped up by world use of the dollar. However, Russia, Iran, China and some other BRICS countries are leading a long overdue de-dollarisation of the world.

Hey, don't pinch my words, use your own.  :chuckle:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-29/putin-running-to-stand-still-as-euro-gold-stymie-reserves-drive

They are paying a huge price for dumping dollars. It would appear China and Russia is an even bigger ponzi scheme than the US.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 30, 2015, 12:08:04 PM
You guys get on your band wagon and complain about the US. We do have a debt problem. But what none of you guys want to talk about so does everyone else. Yes I believe we are in the last 18 months of this before the world global finance system come to an end. But do not just blame the US. The Russian currency is not weak because of America but because of bad choices Russia is making. The stock market in China is not collapsing because of America but because of choices China made. Europe is not struggling because of America but because of their choices. China has already dumped over half of their US bonds to buy projects that are now worth much less than the bonds. China has canceled the big gas deal with Russia. Not a US problem we did not have anything to do with it. Oil prices collapsing maybe this has more to do with the early stages of the world wide recession that is just starting than something the US did. Also know nearly every other commodity in the world is also dropping in price. Once again recession causing over supply. 

Currencies of commodity base countries are becoming under stressed like Russia. Just look at Australia's currency. China over expanded using debt that was not sustainable and now that is coming to an end. China has done more to hurt Russia by causing the run up in Commodity prices then the fall then we did with the sanctions and everything else. No body want to talk about the miss management in China because they are not the big bad wolf.

Everything that goes wrong in the world you guys like to blame America. I think the world is going to get real bad so you guys will be able to do a lot of blaming. It is not completely the just the fault of the USA. Everybody loved the easy money and everybody is in debt.

Great post, and just watch.  Within 20 to 40 years the UK will be begging the USA for military help once more, as they are overrun by radicals they created with their own poor immigration policies.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 30, 2015, 12:13:23 PM
Texan77,  once again time to point out that you need to do some learning. Learn about the numbers,  learn to make comparisons and to understand what those comparisons mean.
Until you get the hang of the basics your extemporising means nothing,  indeed,  just don't do it!  Prepare first,  collect your data,  construct your argument and then do a sanity check.

I can't speak for others here but I certainly understand the consequences of the coming collapse over the pond,  it will touch us all.

Until blokes like you understand  what blokes like me understand there's no chance that the worst can be avoided for you,  or for me.

So says the fool who parrots the propaganda of a regime with a junk bond credit rating.   :chuckle:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-26/russia-credit-rating-cut-to-junk-by-s-p-for-first-time-in-decade



Yes poor little grasshopper, look at the numbers.  Until you comprehend that Russia has a junk bond credit rating, is seizing pension assets to pay for war in Ukraine, and cannot pay their internal bills over time unless oil gets to at least $90 a barrel as Shakespear properly pointed out to you, you won't be able to make any cogent and rational posts, you'll just keep repeating worthless propaganda.   :laugh:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 30, 2015, 12:16:13 PM
America is slowly collapsing, you said, and I agree. Their economy is a ponzi scheme, propped up by world use of the dollar. However, Russia, Iran, China and some other BRICS countries are leading a long overdue de-dollarisation of the world.

Hey, don't pinch my words, use your own.  :chuckle:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-29/putin-running-to-stand-still-as-euro-gold-stymie-reserves-drive

They are paying a huge price for dumping dollars. It would appear China and Russia is an even bigger ponzi scheme than the US.

Fools.  They think they can beat the USA at our own game and we're using their own useful idiots to crush themselves.   :chuckle:


detail from link
"What the 51-year-old central banker was up against is this year’s slide of 9.5 percent in the euro against the dollar and gold’s 8.4 percent tumble in 2015. Both declines hurt because Russian reserves last year contained more euros than dollars for the first time since 2008 and its bullion hoard has tripled since 2005.

“It’s very strange for me that no one has yet put a question to the central bank over the results of its reserves management,” Alexander Losev, chief executive officer at Sputnik Asset Management in Moscow, said by e-mail."
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 30, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
Estonian's consider themselves to be "native" to their land since they have been there for 10000 years since the glaciers retreated.

And still there are less than a million of them if you subtract the Russians. They must breed as slow as giant Pandas.

That would certainly be a concern of mine if I were a Russian living in Siberia or the Far East.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on July 30, 2015, 03:07:31 PM
America is slowly collapsing, you said, and I agree. Their economy is a ponzi scheme, propped up by world use of the dollar. However, Russia, Iran, China and some other BRICS countries are leading a long overdue de-dollarisation of the world.

Hey, don't pinch my words, use your own.  :chuckle:

No need to worry old boy!  :laugh:

You forgot that you don't have the copyright, as you probably read and copy it,
from the same source that I read too!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I had only to copy my own text from a comment I made,
over a year ago, on another place! :biggrin:

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 30, 2015, 03:33:20 PM
America is slowly collapsing, you said, and I agree. Their economy is a ponzi scheme, propped up by world use of the dollar. However, Russia, Iran, China and some other BRICS countries are leading a long overdue de-dollarisation of the world.

Hey, don't pinch my words, use your own.  :chuckle:

No need to worry old boy!  :laugh:

You forgot that you don't have the copyright, as you probably read and copy it,
from the same source that I read too!  :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

I had only to copy my own text from a comment I made,
over a year ago, on another place! :biggrin:

I do have copyright, here and there. But that aside, write your own stuff.  :-*
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Donhollio on July 30, 2015, 05:54:38 PM
I thought the map was drawn up after the war, by all world powers. The US occupied all of Europe, and the USSR Eastern Europe, and whatever was left. The USSR folded, but the US is still holding its ground. :laugh:

 It was a race to Berlin. Had US and Commonwealth forces been able we the west would of tried to secure other countries that fell under commie Russia.

Well your past leaders did kill about 60 million people in the 20th century. I guess its lost on you Euro citizens.
 
 If you guys wish to avoid the early live tweets from the Russian side or WTF you want to call them after the plane was shot down, and all the backtracking from Russia, then go ahead. If you Euro boys think nothing is wrong with a leader rigging elections and killing off his critics, then go right ahead with your belief that we over here are out to lunch.
 If you find Putin to be a great leader instilling pride into the RF citizens through his silly posturing on the worlds stage. 'reclaiming' lands 'rightfully' ethnic Russian....wait who was that German leader in the 1930's? Anyway if you Euro boys wish to see the CCCP back in your sunrise, and from the drivel I read here I can see many do, then go have a glass of kavass, and toast to the new Europe. 
 I know I really miss those 1980's, all the the hostility and nuke bomb buildup, shit, I'm getting choked up just thinking of those defectors from the CCCP to Canada and the US!
Quote from: Froid
Nice post Don.


 Thanks. Sometimes I like to enlighten the Euro boys who can't see due to having their heads buried deep into the russian bears ... An inconvenient truth influenced no doubt by their better halves  :chuckle: 
 RF women who immigrate and marry men outside of Europe don't think like the migrating RW's in other parts of the world.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 01:26:03 AM
An inconvenient truth influenced no doubt by their better halves  :chuckle: 
 RF women who immigrate and marry men outside of Europe don't think like the migrating RW's in other parts of the world.

Oh, please educate us on this statement?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 09:32:11 AM

An inconvenient truth influenced no doubt by their better halves  :chuckle: 
 RF women who immigrate and marry men outside of Europe don't think like the migrating RW's in other parts of the world.

Oh, please educate us on this statement?

Don, what might make you think that all / or most  Europe based RW think Putin is a 'hero'   ?.... :chuckle:

I can assure you that many form friendships with women from UA and try to avoid politics and are somewhat ashamed
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 09:47:56 AM
I can assure you that many form friendships with women from UA and try to avoid politics and are somewhat ashamed

I agree many tend to avoid politics, especially between friends that are Russian/Ukrainian, but I have yet to meet a Russian woman who is "ashamed" of anything. That is assuming you can find one in the few who don't support Putin. I rather think you made that up as it caters to your prejudices.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 09:51:08 AM
Manny, as ever you are unwise to state such things without checking.

Non support from Russians living in the UK is not uncommon.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 09:54:55 AM
Manny, as ever you are unwise to state such things without checking.

Non support from Russians living in the UK is not uncommon.

Not the ones I have met.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 09:55:36 AM
My 'prejudices' in case you need reminding long predate the Kremlin's part in destabilising Europe by physical involvment in it's neighbours..

More a matter of how they came to be in power and the corruption associated with their rise.

.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 09:56:20 AM
Then they chose wisely not to reveal their true feelings... and you have met them.

.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on July 31, 2015, 09:57:40 AM
ALL the Russians I know are no fans of Putin.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 10:05:00 AM
ALL the Russians I know are no fans of Putin.

Perhaps like attracts like in both cases.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 10:09:00 AM

ALL the Russians I know are no fans of Putin.


Perhaps like attracts like in both cases.

I think it's more a matter of seeing all perspectives .. not sure what you mean, Manny - could you clarify, please
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 10:36:05 AM

ALL the Russians I know are no fans of Putin.


Perhaps like attracts like in both cases.

I think it's more a matter of seeing all perspectives .. not sure what you mean, Manny - could you clarify, please

I mean if a chap has a general political view, one way or the other, it will have come from his general mindset. How we are. So take an average right wing bloke, he *may* also decide he is a supporter of Putin. That being the case, he is unlikely (if he has any sense) to marry a woman from the region who is an anti-Putin, bleeding heart Liberal type, as they would be chalk and cheese. In the same way a Thatcherite businessman might not marry an arty farty type of bird who wants to loaf about all day in a pair of fair trade shoes making astrological charts; he will more likely want a bird with a bit of get up and go and some fire in her belly.

We tend to attract those, socially and in relationships, who have a broadly similar outlook to ourselves. Accordingly, for example, in my social circle, I am not aware of very many fuzzy thinking leftists.

In that context, it would make sense that I have not met very many Russian women who are not Putin supporters, but you and Ste are more likely to. Because like attracts like.

I have noted, over the years reading sites like this, that many women who relocate over the pond will often be anti leadership/government system wherever they came from. Like many immigrants who live over the pond, they seek a new mast with which to nail their flag to. They often become very vocal against the situation where they came from and very supportive of their new home (Guppy here is a good example of that). It takes that type of character in a woman to be able to successfully relocate over the pond lest she be very homesick and unhappy. We all know how patriotic and "rah rah America" most Americans are. A woman needs to be able to get on board with all that if marrying a bloke from there. Otherwise it would drive her around the twist. One reason many women eschew Americans, as they cant get on board with all that "We are the greatest yada yada" that forms part of their make up.

Don hasn't yet elaborated on what he meant when he said:

Quote
RF women who immigrate and marry men outside of Europe don't think like the migrating RW's in other parts of the world.

He may well be unwittingly correct, but I am unsure of what thinking - if any - lay behind his statement. Or if he was just being flippant.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on July 31, 2015, 11:03:27 AM

I mean if a chap has a general political view, one way or the other, it will have come from his general mindset. How we are. So take an average right wing bloke, he *may* also decide he is a supporter of Putin. That being the case, he is unlikely (if he has any sense) to marry a woman from the region who is an anti-Putin, bleeding heart Liberal type, as they would be chalk and cheese. In the same way a Thatcherite businessman might not marry an arty farty type of bird who wants to loaf about all day in a pair of fair trade shoes making astrological charts; he will more likely want a bird with a bit of get up and go and some fire in her belly. 

I'd agree that most of the Russians I know personally favor Putin's actions.

Most Americans I know are what I'd call "anti-Russian".  Their opinion on this topic is born from the same ignorance of facts that caused them to believe Obama was the new messiah.  These "low information voters" have put our country on a path to destruction.  I'm beginning to believe progressive liberals are a bigger danger to the USA than radical Islamic terrorism. 

Obama, by ramming through the Iran Nuclear Treaty will become the biggest financial supporter of international terrorism in history.     
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on July 31, 2015, 11:10:22 AM
Think the issue with mine is she works in an international office with all nationalities and finds Russia's actions on the World Stage generally a bit embarrassing, the stick she got over Crimea, people were annexing her stapler, invading her Eastern Desk Space with toy rocket launchers, and jokingly putting Polonium in her tea. Luckily she spotted that last one and lived.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 11:11:17 AM


I mean if a chap has a general political view, one way or the other, it will have come from his general mindset. How we are. So take an average right wing bloke, he *may* also decide he is a supporter of Putin. That being the case, he is unlikely (if he has any sense) to marry a woman from the region who is an anti-Putin, bleeding heart Liberal type, as they would be chalk and cheese. In the same way a Thatcherite businessman might not marry an arty farty type of bird who wants to loaf about all day in a pair of fair trade shoes making astrological charts; he will more likely want a bird with a bit of get up and go and some fire in her belly. 

We tend to attract those, socially and in relationships, who have a broadly similar outlook to ourselves. Accordingly, for example, in my social circle, I am not aware of very many fuzzy thinking leftists.

In that context, it would make sense that I have not met very many Russian women who are not Putin supporters, but you and Ste are more likely to. Because like attracts like.

I have noted, over the years reading sites like this, that many women who relocate over the pond will often be anti leadership/government system wherever they came from. Like many immigrants who live over the pond, they seek a new mast with which to nail their flag to. They often become very vocal against the situation where they came from and very supportive of their new home (Guppy here is a good example of that). It takes that type of character in a woman to be able to successfully relocate over the pond lest she be very homesick and unhappy. We all know how patriotic and "rah rah America" most Americans are. A woman needs to be able to get on board with all that if marrying a bloke from there. Otherwise it would drive her around the twist. One reason many women eschew Americans, as they cant get on board with all that "We are the greatest yada yada" that forms part of their make up.

Don hasn't yet elaborated on what he meant when he said:

Quote
RF women who immigrate and marry men outside of Europe don't think like the migrating RW's in other parts of the world.

He may well be unwittingly correct, but I am unsure of what thinking - if any - lay behind his statement. Or if he was just being flippant.

Thanks for explaining.

Your example of 'right' of centre' guys tending to support Putin doesn't really hold water ... Are people who normally vote Tory now 'left wing' since Putin  / UKIP came along  ?

Most FSU women I date tended to be 'right of centre' in their outlook and racially tolerant - you prob have a point that like attracts.

I have always found it unattractive when a prospective partner mocks  mistrusts / 'dislikes' someone because of their accent / birth place or colour..mainly because I was brought up in 'bubble' of communal mistrust based on religion deciding your preference to a 'cause'.

I am glad I have lived as a contributing guest in other nations and got to learn that Syrians weren't bad because they were from an 'axis of evil'

SOME of that willingness to be more tolerant might rub off on my partner... but I would say, that opposites can also attract.. isn't that difference something exotic  ?


Jeremy Clarkson liked the company of people who are left of centre and his persona on tv  - as he played on his 'non PC'  viewpoints - was most interesting - it may have been his downfall ..I actually think he began to think he spoke on behalf of people and said the things they dared not to ...

Do you not agree that fsuw tend like guys who know what they want and go get it  - especially if they do this whilst delivering #the bacon'  ?

They respect such a partners views - but they are politically inert, largely.

This Ukraine / Crimea business is simply a situation that is demanding that previously inert people are nearly forced to take sides - esp. if you know folks affected.


Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on July 31, 2015, 11:14:40 AM
Out of all the Russian's I know only 1 is a big supporter of Putin.  The rest, my wife included, are at the very least slightly ashamed of him...and cannot talk politics with the brainwashed family at home in Russia.  They find trying to discuss Putin and Russia's actions with their family back home about as hopeless as discussing the western viewpoint on a right-wing pro-Putin forum such as this. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on July 31, 2015, 11:38:03 AM
Out of all the Russian's I know only 1 is a big supporter of Putin.  The rest, my wife included, are at the very least slightly ashamed of him...and cannot talk politics with the brainwashed family at home in Russia.  They find trying to discuss Putin and Russia's actions with their family back home about as hopeless as discussing the western viewpoint on a right-wing pro-Putin forum such as this.
Nicely Put

.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on July 31, 2015, 11:46:15 AM
Out of all the Russian's I know only 1 is a big supporter of Putin.  The rest, my wife included, are at the very least slightly ashamed of him...and cannot talk politics with the brainwashed family at home in Russia.  They find trying to discuss Putin and Russia's actions with their family back home about as hopeless as discussing the western viewpoint on a right-wing pro-Putin forum such as this.
Nicely Put

.

Nicely Put(in)?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 11:47:55 AM
Out of all the Russian's I know only 1 is a big supporter of Putin.  The rest, my wife included, are at the very least slightly ashamed of him...and cannot talk politics with the brainwashed family at home in Russia.  They find trying to discuss Putin and Russia's actions with their family back home about as hopeless as discussing the western viewpoint on a right-wing pro-Putin forum such as this.

In turn, they would likely say that it is in fact your good lady wife that had been brainwashed. But likely neither side will ever convince the other. Same as here really.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on July 31, 2015, 11:49:53 AM
Most Americans I know are what I'd call "anti-Russian".  Their opinion on this topic is born from the same ignorance of facts that caused them to believe Obama was the new messiah.  These "low information voters" have put our country on a path to destruction.   

We see that daily here.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 31, 2015, 01:45:26 PM

I mean if a chap has a general political view, one way or the other, it will have come from his general mindset. How we are. So take an average right wing bloke, he *may* also decide he is a supporter of Putin. That being the case, he is unlikely (if he has any sense) to marry a woman from the region who is an anti-Putin, bleeding heart Liberal type, as they would be chalk and cheese. In the same way a Thatcherite businessman might not marry an arty farty type of bird who wants to loaf about all day in a pair of fair trade shoes making astrological charts; he will more likely want a bird with a bit of get up and go and some fire in her belly. 
I'm beginning to believe progressive liberals are a bigger danger to the USA than radical Islamic terrorism. 

Obama, by ramming through the Iran Nuclear Treaty will become the biggest financial supporter of international terrorism in history.   

I'm not on board with the first part of your post but I completely agree with the part above.  The current crop of "liberals" in the USA do not have anything to do with the Democratic Party from the 70's and prior.  They are so far out to lunch that there's no point in discussing anything with them.   :smokin:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on July 31, 2015, 09:07:35 PM
In regards to patriotism I think it's perfectly normal for somebody from the USA to love America and somebody from Russia to love Russia; even Putin is popular with a majority of Russians and if you look at their history carefully you can see why.  He says the things which Russians want to hear.  Sadly he has taken their country in the wrong direction IMO but the Russians are quick to point out the US adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, both mostly bad decisions I would agree. 

Just after 9/11 us Americans were very rah rah rah get the bad guys those evil Taliban -- Bin Laden and his minions.  It would have been okay if we just took out the Taliban and then left but with a promise to come back if they tried any more sh!t.  Nation building over there?  Bad idea and it's cost us a fortune.  Iraq with 20/20 hindsight we know that Cheney and Bush Jr. told some whoppers to get that done and it cost us dearly.  Now we have to go back and finish the job again because Obummer screwed it all up (once you're there can you ever leave?).

Crimea is done and will likely stay that way through our lifetimes.  Russia could have peace again if they would actually really get out of E. Ukraine but it's going to be their new Afghanistan all over again if they try to keep it going.   :o

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on August 01, 2015, 04:09:36 AM
Russia could have peace again if they would actually really get out of E. Ukraine but it's going to be their new Afghanistan all over again if they try to keep it going.   :o

Anteros,

Russia is at peace ... it's just their neighbours that have civil war  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 03, 2015, 10:48:04 AM
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko Accuses Vladimir Putin of Wanting 'Whole of Europe

Paris: Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko today accused his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin of wanting to take over the "whole of Europe" and potentially aiming his sights next at Finland and the Baltics."Putin wants to go as far as we allow him -- not only Ukraine, but the whole of Europe," Poroshenko said in an interview with French radio station RFI."If you had asked me two years ago, I would have said this was impossible because the whole postwar security system wouldn't allow that," he said."But if you asked me today... unfortunately everything is possible because the annexation of Crimea and the eastern part of Ukraine... shows we can break the global security system."He said the ongoing fighting against Russian-backed insurgents in eastern Ukraine should be seen as a fight for all of Europe."Is an attack on Finland possible? Yes, and Finland knows that. Is an attack on the Baltic states possible? Yes," he said."When we're talking about the fighting in the east of my country... we're fighting not only for the independence and sovereignty of my country, we're fighting for democracy, we're fighting for freedom and the security of the whole European continent

http://m.ndtv.com/world-news/ukraine-president-accuses-putin-of-wanting-whole-of-europe-1203310
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 03, 2015, 11:28:12 AM
Nice article. Poroshenko is not that naive. This piece was written to get popular at home, and in Europe. It has no substance at all. Poroshenko has close ties inside Russia, and knows better. :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 12:01:27 PM
"Is an attack on Finland possible? Yes, and Finland knows that. Is an attack on the Baltic states possible? Yes,"

On account of Finland being so terrified, they joined NATO years ago. Oh wait, they didn't.......
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on August 03, 2015, 12:11:04 PM
Did you know that Finlands economy is going doing very badly .... because of the sanctions against Russia.... and now they cannot export paper products there, .... their biggest client?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 03, 2015, 12:22:49 PM
Did you know that Finlands economy is going doing very badly .... because of the sanctions against Russia.... and now they cannot export paper products there, .... their biggest client?
A shame. They are the good guys here.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 01:12:13 PM
On account of Finland being so terrified, they joined NATO years ago. Oh wait, they didn't.......

I think you can understand why - the last time the Russians tried to take Finland they weren't so successful . . . . . . . . .
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 01:13:00 PM
Did you know that Finlands economy is going doing very badly .... because of the sanctions against Russia.... and now they cannot export paper products there, .... their biggest client?

How can anybody trade with them - who understands that gibberish the Finns speak?

And I swear, their men drink more than Russian men . . . . . . . . .
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 03, 2015, 01:39:00 PM
Did you know that Finlands economy is going doing very badly .... because of the sanctions against Russia.... and now they cannot export paper products there, .... their biggest client?

How can anybody trade with them - who understands that gibberish the Finns speak?

And I swear, their men drink more than Russian men . . . . . . . . .
Because they live longer... :laugh:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on August 03, 2015, 02:02:13 PM
On account of Finland being so terrified, they joined NATO years ago. Oh wait, they didn't.......

I think you can understand why - the last time the Russians tried to take Finland they weren't so successful . . . . . . . . .

What, you mean the Winter War that the Finns lost and had to give up Karelia?
For some reason many othersiders seem to think that was a Finnish victory. God alone knows why, it ain't like it was a secret or anything.

A foolish war that happened because the Finns refused to talk to the Russians.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 02:24:18 PM
What, you mean the Winter War that the Finns lost and had to give up Karelia?
For some reason many othersiders seem to think that was a Finnish victory. God alone knows why, it ain't like it was a secret or anything.

A foolish war that happened because the Finns refused to talk to the Russians.

Well, outnumbered and outgunned, the Finnish Army fought the Russian's to a standstill.  The Soviets possessed more than three times as many soldiers as the Finns, thirty times as many aircraft, and a hundred times as many tanks.  They Fins lost slightly more land that what the Russians originally demanded prior to the war and the poor performance by the Russian army against what was considered a vastly inferior opponent helped convince Hitler that and attack by Germany upon the Soviet Union would be successful.   

Considering Russia went to war intending to conquer ALL of Finland, yes Andrew, it was a Finnish victory. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 02:45:54 PM
What, you mean the Winter War that the Finns lost and had to give up Karelia?
For some reason many othersiders seem to think that was a Finnish victory. God alone knows why, it ain't like it was a secret or anything.

A foolish war that happened because the Finns refused to talk to the Russians.

Well, outnumbered and outgunned, the Finnish Army fought the Russian's to a standstill.  The Soviets possessed more than three times as many soldiers as the Finns, thirty times as many aircraft, and a hundred times as many tanks.  They Fins lost slightly more land that what the Russians originally demanded prior to the war and the poor performance by the Russian army against what was considered a vastly inferior opponent helped convince Hitler that and attack by Germany upon the Soviet Union would be successful.   

Considering Russia went to war intending to conquer ALL of Finland, yes Andrew, it was a Finnish victory.

1939? Hardly relevant today.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 02:54:58 PM
What, you mean the Winter War that the Finns lost and had to give up Karelia?
For some reason many othersiders seem to think that was a Finnish victory. God alone knows why, it ain't like it was a secret or anything.

A foolish war that happened because the Finns refused to talk to the Russians.

Well, outnumbered and outgunned, the Finnish Army fought the Russian's to a standstill.  The Soviets possessed more than three times as many soldiers as the Finns, thirty times as many aircraft, and a hundred times as many tanks.  They Fins lost slightly more land that what the Russians originally demanded prior to the war and the poor performance by the Russian army against what was considered a vastly inferior opponent helped convince Hitler that and attack by Germany upon the Soviet Union would be successful.   

Considering Russia went to war intending to conquer ALL of Finland, yes Andrew, it was a Finnish victory.

Some people have a hard time looking at reality in a complete and objective way.   :chuckle:

In fact I think I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory over Germany during WWII.

I would not call it a complete victory when you look at the losses, most of which were caused by the incompetence of Stalin.  Try as he might to take credit, it was he who committed the purges of his best officers prior to the war, he who initially refused to listen to the wisdom of his Generals, and he who finally got out of the way so that they could do their jobs.  Let's not forget it was also Stalin who made the secret pact with Hitler prior to the war... :smokin:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 02:58:51 PM
"Is an attack on Finland possible? Yes, and Finland knows that. Is an attack on the Baltic states possible? Yes,"

On account of Finland being so terrified, they joined NATO years ago. Oh wait, they didn't.......

Because they're smart.  They know the best way to placate the Russian bear is to give an image of neutrality.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 02:59:12 PM
In fact I think I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory over Germany during WWII.

What have you been smoking Anteros?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 03:03:10 PM
In fact I think I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory over Germany during WWII.

What have you been smoking Anteros?

You would call human loss of life of more than 4 to 1 a victory, when they could have been far better prepared if they had in place a real leader instead of an insane genocidal dictator? 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 03:15:59 PM
"Is an attack on Finland possible? Yes, and Finland knows that. Is an attack on the Baltic states possible? Yes,"

On account of Finland being so terrified, they joined NATO years ago. Oh wait, they didn't.......

Because they're smart.  They know the best way to placate the Russian bear is to give an image of neutrality.

No, because they understand Russia is no threat to them despite sharing a border.

Have you *been* to Finland? I have.  :Zzzzsleep:  Nothing to see there. Nothing to want. Same with the Baltics. Russia doesn't want or need more trees, fields and snow.

All this stuff that Russia may *attack* [insert country of choice] is simply rubbish.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 03:21:25 PM
"Is an attack on Finland possible? Yes, and Finland knows that. Is an attack on the Baltic states possible? Yes,"

On account of Finland being so terrified, they joined NATO years ago. Oh wait, they didn't.......

Because they're smart.  They know the best way to placate the Russian bear is to give an image of neutrality.

No, because they understand Russia is no threat to them despite sharing a border.

Have you *been* to Finland? I have.  :Zzzzsleep: 


I've been to Sweden but did not have time for Finland.  I'm a fan of modern Architecture in the manner done by the Finnish and other Scandinavians.

If it's rubbish then why does Putin feel a need to argue about whether or not the Baltics had a right to leave the FSU?  What is that all about?  What are all the military flights about, some of which have been near misses?  What is really going on?  And where will it all lead? 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 03, 2015, 03:22:40 PM
The Baltics are pretty quiet countries, which Russia is not really interested in.
But.....The could be destabilized, to create another manure pile on Russia's border.
But on the other hand, I think Germany would oppose this one. :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 03:23:46 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 03:24:30 PM
The Baltics are pretty quiet countries, which Russia is not really interested in.
But.....The could be destabilized, to create another manure pile on Russia's border.
But on the other hand, I think Germany would oppose this one. :coffeeread:

I would welcome more German involvement in this mess but they are more interested in $$$ and they have become quite the pacifists.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 03, 2015, 03:26:16 PM
Never mind the Baltics. Puerto Rico is now ripe to be taken. They are officially default today. And the beaches are better than in Crimea! :party0031: :party0011:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 03:27:18 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

You are entirely missing the point with that idea.  The point is that the Baltics have a right to be prepared for any and all eventualities and in fact Putin and the RF will likely not try anything there but only because the USA showed military support for the Baltics.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 03:34:09 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

You are entirely missing the point with that idea.  The point is that the Baltics have a right to be prepared for any and all eventualities and in fact Putin and the RF will likely not try anything there but only because the USA showed military support for the Baltics.

You either think Russia will invade one of these places or you don't. If you do, pledge your $100. If you don't, lets have no more silly talk about it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 03:46:48 PM
You would call human loss of life of more than 4 to 1 a victory, when they could have been far better prepared if they had in place a real leader instead of an insane genocidal dictator?

Christ Anteros, it was a war of  annihilation.  Only an idiot could look at the pictures of Berlin from April 1945 and not be able to deduce that Russia utterly defeated Germany.  Could they have been more economical in the destruction? In hindsight, of course. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 03:49:36 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.


Of course they won't.  Only an idiot would accept an even money proposition like that. 

You British have no sense of sporting chance. . . . . . . . . . .

What odds are you offering? 

Against a NATO member - Ten millon to one would be "fair odds" for this proposal.

Against Finland without NATO protection, a million to one sounds fair. 

I think you're on the right side of the proposition, just want to make sure anybody lucky enough to accurately predict such an invasion would be justly rewarded. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 04:09:33 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.


Of course they won't.  Only an idiot would accept an even money proposition like that. 

You British have no sense of sporting chance. . . . . . . . . . .

What odds are you offering? 

Against a NATO member - Ten millon to one would be "fair odds" for this proposal.

Against Finland without NATO protection, a million to one sounds fair. 

I think you're on the right side of the proposition, just want to make sure anybody lucky enough to accurately predict such an invasion would be justly rewarded.

So you are saying: "No Manny, I wont take that bet". That's cool.

Others are yet to declare.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on August 03, 2015, 04:16:45 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

You are entirely missing the point with that idea.  The point is that the Baltics have a right to be prepared for any and all eventualities and in fact Putin and the RF will likely not try anything there but only because the USA showed military support for the Baltics.

You either think Russia will invade one of these places or you don't. If you do, pledge your $100. If you don't, lets have no more silly talk about it.

The Russian reason behind the war in the Ukraine is political. Look at Putin numbers and what they were before the war and now. The man knows Russian politics and how to control public opinion. Their was nothing in eastern Ukraine he wanted neither.  I think Putin spent all he can afford in the Ukraine war and just can not afford the aftermath of another victory like he has enjoyed in the Ukraine. But then if his pole number get weak no telling what he will happen next time to get Russians to support him. I am sure it will envolved making the West the big bad wolf again. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 04:25:34 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

You are entirely missing the point with that idea.  The point is that the Baltics have a right to be prepared for any and all eventualities and in fact Putin and the RF will likely not try anything there but only because the USA showed military support for the Baltics.

You either think Russia will invade one of these places or you don't. If you do, pledge your $100. If you don't, lets have no more silly talk about it.

The Russian reason behind the war in the Ukraine is political. Look at Putin numbers and what they were before the war and now. The man knows Russian politics and how to control public opinion. Their was nothing in eastern Ukraine he wanted neither.  I think Putin spent all he can afford in the Ukraine war and just can not afford the aftermath of another victory like he has enjoyed in the Ukraine. But then if his pole number get weak no telling what he will happen next time to get Russians to support him. I am sure it will envolved making the West the big bad wolf again.

As you quoted it, is that you taking my bet or not?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 03, 2015, 04:43:42 PM
This article is over a year ago, but fits this thread. :coffeeread:

Putin 21-Year Quest to Be Russian Guardian Began in Estonia

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-04-13/putin-21-year-quest-to-be-guardian-of-russians-began-in-estonia
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 03, 2015, 04:55:31 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

Are you willing to throw Moldova in the mix?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 03, 2015, 04:57:32 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

Are you willing to throw Moldova in the mix?

Attack, invasion or annexation. Sure.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 03, 2015, 05:59:25 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

Are you willing to throw Moldova in the mix?

Attack, invasion or annexation. Sure.

Anyone interested in Manny's wager, Russia recently moved the border in Georgia, seems Putin feels he can do as he pleases.
Just seems odd that Manny would not include Ukraine in the bet.
After all according to Manny and others Russia has not had any military involvement in Ukraine, seems this too would be a sure bet. :)

The creeping Russian border in Georgia

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/07/creeping-russian-border-georgia-south-ossetia-abkhazia-150722111452829.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 06:38:27 PM
You would call human loss of life of more than 4 to 1 a victory, when they could have been far better prepared if they had in place a real leader instead of an insane genocidal dictator?

Christ Anteros, it was a war of  annihilation.  Only an idiot could look at the pictures of Berlin from April 1945 and not be able to deduce that Russia utterly defeated Germany.  Could they have been more economical in the destruction? In hindsight, of course.

No, Russia did not "utterly defeat(ed) Germany".  Absolutely no way that Soviet Russia could have done that by themselves, so I call BS on your statement, unless you want to go back and rephrase it.

Now let's look at my statement which you disagreed with:

In fact I think I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory over Germany during WWII.

What have you been smoking Anteros?

Again, I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory against Germany during WWII, and that is an educated statement and opinion with a lot of thought behind the preceding years leading up to the war, and the tremendous loss of human life and material cost of the war, as well as the scorched earth due to Stalinist policies.

So taking the preceding years into consideration, do you really think they scored a REAL victory?  Just look at the details of the purges of 1936 to 1938.  Wikepedia may not be the absolute best source but it's decent and gives a good glimpse into what happened prior to the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

detail about Army officers purged

"The purge of the Red Army and Military Maritime Fleet removed three of five marshals (then equivalent to five-star generals), 13 of 15 army commanders (then equivalent to three- and four-star generals), eight of nine admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy, who were suspected of exploiting their opportunities for foreign contacts),[29] 50 of 57 army corps commanders, 154 out of 186 division commanders, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars.[30]

At first it was thought 25–50% of Red Army officers had been purged; the true figure is now known to be in the area of 3.7–7.7%. This discrepancy was the result of a systematic underestimation of the true size of the Red Army officer corps, and it was overlooked that most of those purged were merely expelled from the Party. Thirty percent of officers purged in 1937–39 were allowed to return to service.[31]

The purge of the army was claimed to be supported by Nazi-forged documents (said to have been correspondence between Marshal Tukhachevsky and members of the German high command).[32] The claim is unsupported by facts, as by the time the documents were supposedly created, two people from the eight in the Tukhachevsky group were already imprisoned, and by the time the document was said to reach Stalin the purging process was already underway. However the actual evidence introduced at trial was obtained from forced confessions.[33]"
end of quote


You are looking at just the end result, a result the Soviets would have never achieved without major assistance from the UK and especially the USA.

I am looking at what it took, and why.  I don't see it as a real victory, because the war might have been prevented in the first place, but more importantly it would have never taken the tremendous loss of life and material had Stalin not been the "leader" during that time, but a more sane rational and normal human being.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 03, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

You are entirely missing the point with that idea.  The point is that the Baltics have a right to be prepared for any and all eventualities and in fact Putin and the RF will likely not try anything there but only because the USA showed military support for the Baltics.

You either think Russia will invade one of these places or you don't. If you do, pledge your $100. If you don't, lets have no more silly talk about it.

I don't need to take your silly bet to have an educated opinion on the topic of the thread.  Putin is not going to be foolish enough to try to invade the Baltics because his economy already sucks and he hasn't much time to decide what he will do about Ukraine either.

As I already stated though, the more he tries to steal territory from his neighbor, the more his government will risk going the way the FSU did after their "adventure" in Afghanistan.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 03, 2015, 08:12:46 PM
So you are saying: "No Manny, I wont take that bet". That's cool.

No.  I'm saying you're not offering a bet at all.

A bet involves some equal chance of either party prevailing - any favoritism in position is equaled out by odds

You are basically offering some idiot the chance to just give you $100.  (:)

No thank you.   
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on August 03, 2015, 09:55:12 PM
OK, here is a fun thing. Shakey likes wagers......

Who wants to bet me $100 that Russia will attack/invade/annex Finland/Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania/Poland in the next year?

I say they wont.

You boys are all so sure Russia is an acquisitive behemoth who is poised to gobble up its neighbours. I say they are not. I will put a $100 bet with anyone here who wants to take me up on that. You all know Russia is "aggressive" and "about to invade" right? The American media says so.  :)  Should be easy money for you........

Anyone?

You are entirely missing the point with that idea.  The point is that the Baltics have a right to be prepared for any and all eventualities and in fact Putin and the RF will likely not try anything there but only because the USA showed military support for the Baltics.

You either think Russia will invade one of these places or you don't. If you do, pledge your $100. If you don't, lets have no more silly talk about it.

The Russian reason behind the war in the Ukraine is political. Look at Putin numbers and what they were before the war and now. The man knows Russian politics and how to control public opinion. Their was nothing in eastern Ukraine he wanted neither.  I think Putin spent all he can afford in the Ukraine war and just can not afford the aftermath of another victory like he has enjoyed in the Ukraine. But then if his pole number get weak no telling what he will happen next time to get Russians to support him. I am sure it will envolved making the West the big bad wolf again.

As you quoted it, is that you taking my bet or not?

No! One Putin seem to need a war more like every six years to build his political power. This would be only 24 months out after the last one. Two; if he did the both of you will not admit it. So their is no chance of a win on my end.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on August 04, 2015, 12:10:38 AM
In fact I think I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory over Germany during WWII.

What have you been smoking Anteros?

You would call human loss of life of more than 4 to 1 a victory, when they could have been far better prepared if they had in place a real leader instead of an insane genocidal dictator?
Hitler lost almost no soldiers against any other army that faced them. Russia understood this and was willing to pay the reaper, to get victory.

In the tank-battle for volgograd they were outnumbered at least 2 to 1, and still defeated the nazi's due to superior technology AND tactics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus

You really should read up on WW-II.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 04, 2015, 12:21:38 AM
In fact I think I would be hard pressed to say that the Soviet Union scored a real victory over Germany during WWII.

What have you been smoking Anteros?

You would call human loss of life of more than 4 to 1 a victory, when they could have been far better prepared if they had in place a real leader instead of an insane genocidal dictator?
Hitler lost almost no soldiers against any other army that faced them. Russia understood this and was willing to pay the reaper, to get victory.

In the tank-battle for volgograd they were outnumbered at least 2 to 1, and still defeated the nazi's due to superior technology AND tactics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus

You really should read up on WW-II.

Operation Barbarossa: The largest battle the world ever saw.

Wiki: Historical significance[edit]
Operation Barbarossa was the largest and one of the swiftest military operations in human history; more men, tanks, guns and aircraft were committed than had ever been deployed before in a single offensive.[84] A total of 75 percent of the entire German military participated.[44] The invasion opened up the Eastern Front of World War II, the largest theater of war during that conflict, and it witnessed titanic clashes of unprecedented violence and destruction for four years that resulted in the deaths of more than 26 million people.[185] More people died fighting on the Eastern Front than in all other fighting across the globe during World War II.[186]
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on August 04, 2015, 05:36:00 AM


You really should read up on WW-II.

When you refer to 'Russians' when a Georgian was in charge of a SOVIET army, I have to wonder WHO needs to read up. :chuckle:

I think you are doing a slight dis- service to the diverse allies who delayed the Nazi operation to invade the Soviet Union nearly two months and allow nature to play it's hand and bog down Hitler's forces..

Battle of Britain 

Balkans Campaign
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on August 04, 2015, 07:46:27 AM


You really should read up on WW-II.

When you refer to 'Russians' when a Georgian was in charge of a SOVIET army, I have to wonder WHO needs to read up. :chuckle:

I think you are doing a slight dis- service to the diverse allies who delayed the Nazi operation to invade the Soviet Union nearly two months and allow nature to play it's hand and bog down Hitler's forces..

Battle of Britain 

Balkans Campaign

He also needs to read up on the fact that Stalin was willing to send troops to support German troops at any time and anywhere due to the secret pact, that is until Hitler broke the pact and commenced operation Barbarossa. 

Russian losses would have been much higher without allied help which was enormous but you rarely hear much about it from the Soviet style Russians.

Mark you complain that allied losses were fewer against the Germans.  Was it our fault that we were better trained, better equipped and used better tactics which resulted in fewer casualties on the part of Americans, British and others fighting the Germans?

I suggest you read up on the fact that early in the war Stalin insisted his Soviet troops engage in non-stop suicide attacks against the initially superior Germans.

If you're going to comment on the history of the war get your facts straight bud.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 09, 2015, 10:26:58 AM
New Polish president demands better NATO protection from Russia

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84155708/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 09, 2015, 11:21:40 AM
Would seem Russia had issued passports for Crimea as early as December 2013 months before Crimea was annexed, by Russia.

The Latvian Foreign Ministry has announced it will refuse visas to Russian citizens who hold passports featuring Crimea as part of the Russian Federation

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/135672/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: shakespear on August 09, 2015, 11:40:58 AM
The Latvian Foreign Ministry has announced it will refuse visas to Russian citizens who hold passports featuring Crimea as part of the Russian Federation 

What a horrible and stupid decision.  Let's just all throw gasoline on a fire that has long ago burned out. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on August 09, 2015, 01:15:30 PM
'Burned out?' That is why sanctions remain...

.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 09, 2015, 02:14:39 PM
Would seem Russia had issued passports for Crimea as early as December 2013 months before Crimea was annexed, by Russia.

Russia will issue a passport to ethnic Russians or those whose parents (or just one) were born in Russia who reside anywhere. Why our daughter who was born in the UK to one non-resident Russian born parent also has rather useful Russian citizenship in addition to her British one.

But they don't force it on people, y'know? They must actually want it, apply for it and pay money. Which the Crimeans in 2013 in your article will have done.

Similarly, anyone in the Baltics (per the topic) who has a Russian parent can also get Russian citizenship. I *think* also if they were born in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania when it was the USSR (CCCP) it is automatic.

In practice, it removes the visa restriction into Russia for those who have business/family there. One of the things I am currently lobbying for for family members anywhere (like me for example) who don't happen to be eligible for Russian citizenship.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 09, 2015, 02:15:23 PM


You really should read up on WW-II.

When you refer to 'Russians' when a Georgian was in charge of a SOVIET army, I have to wonder WHO needs to read up. :chuckle:

I think you are doing a slight dis- service to the diverse allies who delayed the Nazi operation to invade the Soviet Union nearly two months and allow nature to play it's hand and bog down Hitler's forces..

Battle of Britain 

Balkans Campaign

He also needs to read up on the fact that Stalin was willing to send troops to support German troops at any time and anywhere due to the secret pact, that is until Hitler broke the pact and commenced operation Barbarossa. 

Russian losses would have been much higher without allied help which was enormous but you rarely hear much about it from the Soviet style Russians.

Mark you complain that allied losses were fewer against the Germans.  Was it our fault that we were better trained, better equipped and used better tactics which resulted in fewer casualties on the part of Americans, British and others fighting the Germans?

I suggest you read up on the fact that early in the war Stalin insisted his Soviet troops engage in non-stop suicide attacks against the initially superior Germans.

If you're going to comment on the history of the war get your facts straight bud.

Anteros,

History of war is a history of treason, as well as alliances.
Yes, there had been secret pacts, before, and during the WW2. There were also treasons. And lies.
In addition to what you mentioned, other facts have also to be remembered. The US saw the Warsaw Pact as the worst ennemy, and long hesitated to enter the war against Germany. Actually, in the summer of 1940, the had but concluded that Britain would fall, and that they would not enter the conflict. Churchill had to put pressure on the Americans to get some war assistance. The US would eventually agree, but only on beneficial terms.
The Here is a extract from Wiki:
With German troops advancing rapidly into France and many in the US Government convinced that the defeat of France and Britain was imminent, the United States sent a proposal to the United Kingdom through the British Ambassador, the Marquess of Lothian, for an American lease of airfields on Trinidad, Bermuda, and Newfoundland.[3] British Prime Minister Winston Churchill initially rejected the offer on May 27 unless Britain received something immediate in return. On June 1, as the defeat of France loomed, President Roosevelt bypassed the Neutrality Act by declaring as "surplus" many millions of rounds of American ammunition and obsolescent small arms, and authorizing their shipment to the United Kingdom. But Roosevelt rejected Churchill's pleas for destroyers for the Royal Navy.

By August, while Britain and her Empire stood alone against Germany, the American Ambassador Joseph P. Kennedy reported from London that a British surrender was "inevitable". Seeking to persuade Roosevelt to send the destroyers, Churchill warned Roosevelt ominously that if Britain were vanquished, its colonial islands close to American shores could become a direct threat to America if they fell into German hands.

The deal[edit]
On September 2, 1940, as the Battle of Britain intensified, United States Secretary of State Cordell Hull signaled agreement to the transfer of the warships to the Royal Navy. In exchange, the US was granted land in various British possessions for the establishment of naval or air bases, on ninety-nine-year rent-free leases, on:

Newfoundland (today part of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador)
Eastern side of the Bahamas
Southern coast of Jamaica
Western coast of St. Lucia
West coast of Trinidad (Gulf of Paria)
Antigua
British Guiana (present day Guyana) within fifty miles of Georgetown

Yes, war is hell... :coffeeread:

 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: cdnexpat on August 09, 2015, 02:17:41 PM
Would seem Russia had issued passports for Crimea as early as December 2013 months before Crimea was annexed, by Russia.

The Latvian Foreign Ministry has announced it will refuse visas to Russian citizens who hold passports featuring Crimea as part of the Russian Federation

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/135672/

Latvia reminds me of the small dog, yapping loudly, but safely staying behind her master. :laugh:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on August 09, 2015, 02:30:22 PM
Would seem Russia had issued passports for Crimea as early as December 2013 months before Crimea was annexed, by Russia.

Russia will issue a passport to ethnic Russians or those whose parents (or just one) were born in Russia who reside anywhere. Why our daughter who was born in the UK to one non-resident Russian born parent also has rather useful Russian citizenship in addition to her British one.

But they don't force it on people, y'know? They must actually want it, apply for it and pay money. Which the Crimeans in 2013 in your article will have done.

Similarly, anyone in the Baltics (per the topic) who has a Russian parent can also get Russian citizenship. I *think* also if they were born in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania when it was the USSR (CCCP) it is automatic.

In practice, it removes the visa restriction into Russia for those who have business/family there. One of the things I am currently lobbying for for family members anywhere (like me for example) who don't happen to be eligible for Russian citizenship.

Is that true about the Baltics? Get loads of queries on my immigration board about these non-citizens in the Baltics, seems on the face of it they can't get full citizenships and therefore EU rights cos they won't or can't pass a ES/LU/LA language test. There's a lot.

Dunno if it's the real truth tho, they are mostly oldies, even UK exempts over 65's for any language tests...
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 09, 2015, 03:26:01 PM
Would seem Russia had issued passports for Crimea as early as December 2013 months before Crimea was annexed, by Russia.

Russia will issue a passport to ethnic Russians or those whose parents (or just one) were born in Russia who reside anywhere. Why our daughter who was born in the UK to one non-resident Russian born parent also has rather useful Russian citizenship in addition to her British one.

But they don't force it on people, y'know? They must actually want it, apply for it and pay money. Which the Crimeans in 2013 in your article will have done.

Similarly, anyone in the Baltics (per the topic) who has a Russian parent can also get Russian citizenship. I *think* also if they were born in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania when it was the USSR (CCCP) it is automatic.

In practice, it removes the visa restriction into Russia for those who have business/family there. One of the things I am currently lobbying for for family members anywhere (like me for example) who don't happen to be eligible for Russian citizenship.

Is that true about the Baltics? Get loads of queries on my immigration board about these non-citizens in the Baltics, seems on the face of it they can't get full citizenships and therefore EU rights cos they won't or can't pass a ES/LU/LA language test. There's a lot.

Dunno if it's the real truth tho, they are mostly oldies, even UK exempts over 65's for any language tests...

There is a whole lot of forgotten people that are effectively trapped in the Baltics. The media doesn't discuss them any more. But they are there - begging outside churches. Not paid pensions.

Its a complex subject, and I am no guru on the subject, I only know what I learned from people there.

The older people, mostly grey passport holders (I guess you know of the grey passport - if not, its on Wiki and here), had three choices. 1) Stay grey, travel nowhere and die out slowly. 2) Pass a local language test and get an EU passport, or 3) Get a Russian passport and either stay there like grey or go to Russia.

Most young Russian people, reluctantly, learned some Estonian (or Latvian or whatever) and did the simple language test and got the EU passport. Older people who spoke Russian all their lives had no intention of learning anything else, so they stayed grey. Some held expired USSR and/or old Russian passports - then can all get Russian citizenship with an EU residence stamp. The Baltic states are just fudging those who don't want to learn the local language waiting for them to die off. They have no interest in them. They can quietly travel the Schengen by road (as no borders) although technically, they are not entitled to.

There are old people in the Baltics who are not getting a pension from the shiny new EU state. And they should be. Outside the Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Estonia there are old Russian babushkas begging, who say they don't get a penny from Estonia. Right opposite the government building.........

It was one subject I tried to engage the Twitter-addicted American president of Estonia, Toomas Hendrik Ilves on, on Twitter. And when I did, this happened.......

[attachimg=1]


The truth isn't convenient in Estonia.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 09, 2015, 03:57:41 PM
Would seem Russia had issued passports for Crimea as early as December 2013 months before Crimea was annexed, by Russia.

Russia will issue a passport to ethnic Russians or those whose parents (or just one) were born in Russia who reside anywhere. Why our daughter who was born in the UK to one non-resident Russian born parent also has rather useful Russian citizenship in addition to her British one.

But they don't force it on people, y'know? They must actually want it, apply for it and pay money. Which the Crimeans in 2013 in your article will have done.

Similarly, anyone in the Baltics (per the topic) who has a Russian parent can also get Russian citizenship. I *think* also if they were born in Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania when it was the USSR (CCCP) it is automatic.

In practice, it removes the visa restriction into Russia for those who have business/family there. One of the things I am currently lobbying for for family members anywhere (like me for example) who don't happen to be eligible for Russian citizenship.

I must be missing the part where Crimea was within the Russian federation prior to 2014?

Add edit,
When did it become legal to have dual citizenship in Ukraine?
After all the article is referencing Crimea prior to Russian annexation.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on August 09, 2015, 09:22:18 PM

Most young Russian people, reluctantly, learned some Estonian (or Latvian or whatever) and did the simple language test and got the EU passport. Older people who spoke Russian all their lives had no intention of learning anything else, so they stayed grey. Some held expired USSR and/or old Russian passports - then can all get Russian citizenship with an EU residence stamp. The Baltic states are just fudging those who don't want to learn the local language waiting for them to die off. They have no interest in them. They can quietly travel the Schengen by road (as no borders) although technically, they are not entitled to.

There are old people in the Baltics who are not getting a pension from the shiny new EU state. And they should be. Outside the Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Estonia there are old Russian babushkas begging, who say they don't get a penny from Estonia. Right opposite the government building.........

It was one subject I tried to engage the Twitter-addicted American president of Estonia, Toomas Hendrik Ilves on, on Twitter. And when I did, this happened.......

(Attachment Link)


The truth isn't convenient in Estonia.

I am confused when this logic is applied to the West it is approved and when the same logic is applied to Russia it is replied with howls of indignation.

There are now some decades later obvious losers and winners in the Baltic arena. The Baltic's made there choice in fact if one studies history it was made in the last century, but that is another chapter.

To call Ilves an "American president' is almost the same as calling Mussolini as an "African savior".

The reality is adapt or starve.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on August 10, 2015, 12:21:24 AM
Manny, Lithuania did not distinguish between it's residents and all folks got LT passports.

The EU should have been tougher on EST / LV,  but you are mistaken if you still believe that 'non citizens' cannot travel within Schengen..they can. That was fixed about 10 years ago!

 I used SOLvit to get my (then) LV gf with a grey 'alien passport' holder the right to travel and a Cyprus ID card. Then LV write to CY and pointed out she was not a citizen and Cyprus asked for it back.. it went legal.. the Residency card ..'special case' as she lived with me (sic) was not cancelled and shortly after it was ruled that 'non  citizens' could travel.
But not seek work.

The language tests are not too hard..even if you prefer to speak Russian ..the main issue is the declaration that the Soviet Union  occupied LV /EST and many folks will not sign that in principle...

As they WERE occupied those refusing to sign are simply cutting off their noses to spite the faces and it makes no difference to anyone.

Young people learn the nation's Baltic Language at school so will be fluent..the issue was / is eth Russians wanting their kids to learn in Russian.



About pensions. The 'aliens' have right of residency and must pay taxes so I fail to see what circumstances they would be denied pensions.

It is bizarre to treat folk born in the country..while occupied..as 'aliens' nearly 25 years on..esp. as some eth Russians were sent there in Soviet times as a 'punishment'
One can understand the tensions as many EST / LV folks were sent to labour camps in Siberia for being nationalists. LT had far less eth RU folk and was progressive.

Folks born in EST / LV since independence get citizenship automatically


.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on August 10, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
I must be missing the part where Crimea was within the Russian federation prior to 2014?
It was inside the RF a long, long time before given to Ukraine by Kruchev. Most people didn't even know until 1991 when the USSR fell apart and felt 'trapped' inside the wrong country. For them, they have been living in the wrong country for 25 years and now go 'home'.

Quote
When did it become legal to have dual citizenship in Ukraine?
It didn't. Many Crimeans are swamping the goverment offices swapping their identity for a Russian one, denouncing their Ukrainian citizenship. I saw the lines in 2014 (took 30 days just to get in the office, the queue was that long). in 2015, the queue has shrunk to just 3-4 days waiting, but still a long wait to hear you didn't dot the i, and now have to go back to step one.

Mark.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on August 10, 2015, 01:41:51 AM
I have known several people from Crimea, they considered themselves fortunate to have been raised there. None of them considered themselves Ukrainian and considered the region to be a part of Russia temporarily in Ukraine.

I do not here refer to recent émigrés but to people who have lived outside the area for decades.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 10, 2015, 03:03:42 AM
To call Ilves an "American president' is almost the same as calling Mussolini as an "African savior".

He is American. He was brought up in New Jersey. He has an American passport. He speaks English in an American accent. The bloke is an American.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on August 10, 2015, 03:16:10 AM
Culturally he is American rather than Estonian although, of course,  as with others of his ilk (he is far from alone of his type although time has lessened their overt differences) he is accustomed to wrapping himself in the appropriate cultural trappings.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on August 10, 2015, 04:53:41 AM
To call Ilves an "American president' is almost the same as calling Mussolini as an "African savior".

He is American. He was brought up in New Jersey. He has an American passport. He speaks English in an American accent. The bloke is an American.

Culturally he is American rather than Estonian although, of course,  as with others of his ilk (he is far from alone of his type although time has lessened their overt differences) he is accustomed to wrapping himself in the appropriate cultural trappings.

We have an example of Andy's contorted writing style, it is not very clear what thought he is attempting to convey.

It is almost amusing because of his upbringing that you condemn the man though.  Says allot about the criteria which some measure people with.

My own opinion it is a sort of cultural/education bigotry. If you look at what he has achieved than I wonder why you are so negative.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Volshe on August 10, 2015, 05:34:12 AM
was this video shared before? presumably an instruction of a kind on how to speak to Russians in Estonia depending on whether they are tourists or permanent residents  ??? it's weird.

for us it used to be obligatory to study all three, Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian, Slovenian, in primary school (obviously, some less than others, depending on where were you living), and we all spoke at least some of all the old country's official languages, new kids don't, but then they speak English all of them, so not a biggie  :biggrin:


p.s. in the comments section, someone translated the Estonian part:

 
-Извините, вы говорите по русский ?
-Чтоооо?
-Вы можете сказать, где находиться ближайший магазин ?
-Какой к чёрту магасиин ?
-Даа, магазин !
-Слушайте! Выучите уже эстонский язык! Как это понимать? Живёте в этом государстве и не можете элементарно эстонский язык выучить! Возьми на заметку, что это Эстония и что здесь говорят только на эстонском языке!
-Ой! Я не понимааю!
-Понимааю!?Понимааю?
-Смотрите меньше этих дурацких русских новостей, вместо этого лучше эстонский язык учите! А если учить не хотите, то идите прочь! Идите в Россию, если вам там лучше живётся . Но там не лучше жить! В Европе хорошо жить!
-А вы можете сказать, где мы сейчас находимся?
-Вы совсем не понимаете, что я вам говорю?? Я не собираюсь с вами говорить на русском языке в этой стране!
-А в гостиннице, девушка сказала, что...
-В гостинице? Вы турист? ....

(Дальше, речь уже на русском языке)

gotta run, no time to do the translation, but i think google will do ;)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 10, 2015, 02:38:14 PM
Opinion: Is the West really about to betray Lithuania or Ukraine?

http://m.en.delfi.lt/article.php?id=68696358
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on August 11, 2015, 11:06:44 AM
I have known several people from Crimea, they considered themselves fortunate to have been raised there. None of them considered themselves Ukrainian and considered the region to be a part of Russia temporarily in Ukraine.

I do not here refer to recent émigrés but to people who have lived outside the area for decades.
I know several people who were born on the peninsula and their kids live in other parts of Ukraine and the issue of citizenship is a thorny one, depending on one you have made your life.

Katya..2nd left ..was born of a ( now) Russian Dad and her Mum is a UA passport holder ..as is Katya. She has spent the whole summer here and is going back to her S.Ukraine home town and possible reservist training / call up. Her bf is studying in Moscow and when finished Uni...soon... will have to do RU national service.

(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k634/Svietik/20150811_185730_zpsshpq95wg.jpg)

The thought that they might end up on opposing sides is something they do not want to believe could be possible







.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 28, 2015, 02:48:56 PM
Kinda the new trend building fences at the borders. :chuckle:
Would a fence stop a tank, should Russia ever decide to invade?
Estonia 'plans Russia border fence' amid Ukraine tensions

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34085926
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on August 28, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
Quote
The aim of the construction is to cover the land border with 100%, around-the-clock technical surveillance to create ideal conditions for border guarding and to ensure the security of Estonia and the Schengen area," interior ministry spokesman Toomas Viks told AFP news agency.

Shouldn't they have done that in 2004 anyway as part of the process to become part of the Schengen?  (:)

However, as noted, the land border is very small as most of it is covered by the Piepsi Lake, and almost nobody crosses illegally from Russia anyway as a migrant. Most of the traffic across that unmanned bit of border is cigarettes and vodka.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 28, 2015, 03:19:19 PM
Quote
The aim of the construction is to cover the land border with 100%, around-the-clock technical surveillance to create ideal conditions for border guarding and to ensure the security of Estonia and the Schengen area," interior ministry spokesman Toomas Viks told AFP news agency.

Shouldn't they have done that in 2004 anyway as part of the process to become part of the Schengen?  (:)

However, as noted, the land border is very small as most of it is covered by the Piepsi Lake, and almost nobody crosses illegally from Russia anyway as a migrant. Most of the traffic across that unmanned bit of border is cigarettes and vodka.

It's just getting old how often every time any country does anything, the western media relates it to the Ukrainian crisis, and fears of Russian aggression.

Would seem at this point Russia is aiming to invade most of Europe, and Asia.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on August 28, 2015, 07:43:23 PM
Quote
The aim of the construction is to cover the land border with 100%, around-the-clock technical surveillance to create ideal conditions for border guarding and to ensure the security of Estonia and the Schengen area," interior ministry spokesman Toomas Viks told AFP news agency.

Shouldn't they have done that in 2004 anyway as part of the process to become part of the Schengen?  (:)

However, as noted, the land border is very small as most of it is covered by the Piepsi Lake, and almost nobody crosses illegally from Russia anyway as a migrant. Most of the traffic across that unmanned bit of border is cigarettes and vodka.

It's just getting old how often every time any country does anything, the western media relates it to the Ukrainian crisis, and fears of Russian aggression.

Would seem at this point Russia is aiming to invade most of Europe, and Asia.  :chuckle:

You forgot the Artic.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on August 29, 2015, 04:53:00 AM
Actually it is a little odd that the land border between Russia and Estonia has not been delineated - apparently in some places they use a strip of sand. A small difficulty has been that the two countries have never gotten round to agreeing what the borders actually are. The Estonians were playing silly buggers by, on the one hand, saying that a treaty signed in the past no longer applied but then, on the other hand, trying to insist that the provisions of that treaty still held.

Of course any fence is no more than a gesture due to the presence of, as Manny mentioned, Lake Peipsi the presence of which means that if the Estonians want to control their borders that they'd need to close off the Estonian side of the lake which is not practical for a whole load of reasons.

Maybe the real purpose is to reduce the number of Estonian spies crossing the border 'by accident'. ;)


Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 03, 2015, 05:09:54 PM
With the constant threat of a Russian invasion the Baltic states are doing what ever they can to protect their borders.
Most all western media says so.

NATO opens military coordination unit in Lithuania as regional fears grow over Ukraine crisis



http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/03/nato-opens-military-coordination-unit-in-lithuania-as-regional-fears-grow-over/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 03, 2015, 05:16:17 PM
Seems Russia does not comply with international laws.

Nordic, Baltic States Call on Russia to Release Estonian Policeman

http://m.voanews.com/a/2943507.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on September 03, 2015, 05:37:48 PM
Seems Russia does not comply with international laws.

Nordic, Baltic States Call on Russia to Release Estonian Policeman

http://m.voanews.com/a/2943507.html

He wasn't a "policeman", he was a spy trespassing in Russia with firearms and thousands of Euros in his pocket, we have a topic on it here (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,21562.msg378177.html#msg378177). How the western media lies its arse off....... .
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on September 03, 2015, 06:28:50 PM
I bet he wishes he were a copper right now.

A right lash up from start to finish. The Estonians cooked up a story so daft that nobody could believe that the participants would be so stupid.

To make matters worse for Kohver, the Russians gave Estonia the chance to get him back but they blew it. Refusing to pay for an apartment for the guy rather than waiting in prison. The Russians were saying "here,  we'll let him escape if you rent him an apartment" but no,  the Estonians left him in his cell.

Fred Karno's bloody army!
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on September 04, 2015, 12:17:02 PM
Well, I agree there will be a non-invasion of the Baltics, and the real reason is that Russia's military could not win against NATO.


http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2389-russias-military-is-a-paper-tiger-in-the-baltic
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on September 04, 2015, 01:39:09 PM
Well, I agree there will be a non-invasion of the Baltics, and the real reason is that Russia's military could not win against NATO.


http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2389-russias-military-is-a-paper-tiger-in-the-baltic

My god that article is so full of lies and drivel.  :ROFL:

I looked at who/where they were. US based of course despite the misleading name.

Edit: I just found out that is one of many Khodorkovsky funded sites. Or rather, sites he is the front man for, perhaps funded by the US government.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Anteros on September 04, 2015, 01:49:17 PM
Well, I agree there will be a non-invasion of the Baltics, and the real reason is that Russia's military could not win against NATO.


http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2389-russias-military-is-a-paper-tiger-in-the-baltic

My god that article is so full of lies and drivel.  :ROFL:

I looked at who/where they were. US based of course despite the misleading name.

Edit: I just found out that is one of many Khodorkovsky funded sites. Or rather, sites he is the front man for, perhaps funded by the US government.


Khodorkovsky and many of his followers are Russian.  If I prefer Khodorkovsky over some others, I am still pro-Russian, correct?   :smokin:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on September 04, 2015, 02:32:54 PM
Well, I agree there will be a non-invasion of the Baltics, and the real reason is that Russia's military could not win against NATO.


http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2389-russias-military-is-a-paper-tiger-in-the-baltic

My god that article is so full of lies and drivel.  :ROFL:

I looked at who/where they were. US based of course despite the misleading name.

Edit: I just found out that is one of many Khodorkovsky funded sites. Or rather, sites he is the front man for, perhaps funded by the US government.

Why do you think that this is funded by the US government.  Your site is Pro Russian but not likely funded by Russia. It looks to me that this is the same as your site. These people do not like the Russian government. That does not mean they are US funded. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on September 04, 2015, 04:26:33 PM
Why do you think that this is funded by the US government. 

Because I asked someone who knew, and he pointed me to a slew of sites 'apparently' funded by Khodorkovsky, of which this 'imrussia' was one, but when you look at their Twitter accounts, they use US English and claim to be "the team". Its a US troll factory.

Your site is Pro Russian but not likely funded by Russia.

Some here like to imagine otherwise.

It looks to me that this is the same as your site. These people do not like the Russian government.

I think you are confused about this site. I wouldn't publish such untruths here. I do not dislike the Russian government.

The point is, the article is demonstrably and plainly littered with crap and untruths.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 05, 2015, 01:06:20 PM
This is about the same as how the United states funded the regime change in Ukraine.
Some will not agree with me, but Russia and the United states both do the same.
Only difference is Russia,did not have the financial means to complete with the U.S.

Kremlin's millions: How Russia funds NGOs in Baltics 

http://m.en.delfi.lt/article.php?id=68908408
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on September 07, 2015, 04:05:53 AM
When I see some of the crap coming out about the Baltics at the moment I am reminded of the Great HIV Scare of the early part of this century; a manufactured scare story that garnered for Estonia and the Estonian health service a huge amount of money -  at the cost of a frightened populace, almost all of whom STILL don't know the truth.

Not looking to derail this thread but is this about Narva? It has/gets a lot of bad press especially the HIV thing.

You think it's unfounded? I'm just curious, I only passed through there once.

Overall, the rate of HIV in Estonia is higher than some other places, so it is relatively bad. The absolute numbers though are tiny.

As I have written about here over the years, and recently, the HIV scare was an early example of Estonia profiting from 'bad news'. In this case, millions of euros that was used to upgrade the health service of the country.

The thing arose from a 'coincidence' relating to the methodology used by UNAIDS when surveying the spread of HIV in a population.

In very brief terms, prior to joining the EU Estonia was required to survey and identify the HIV pool in the country. Money was spent on training medical staff to seek and identify HIV infected people. Thus, over a period of less than a year the known pool of infectees grew hugely.

This was, coincidentally, the same time frame in which UNAIDS were surveying the population for HIV with a view to assessing the future spread of the disease.

The UNAIDS strategy for assessing spread is pretty simpleminded - in essence they draw a trend line from existing data and run a straight line projection forward. In this case the output was rubbish because they were looking at data that was artificially generated and then assuming that the discover of the pool of sufferers was an effect that would continue unabated into the future.

Of course the number generated produced some wonderful headlines in newspapers across Europe.

I saw the 'real' numbers through data from the Tallinn blood transfusion service. They draw their info from sampling of real people submitting blood to the service. Once one has allowed for anomalies which are known about in advance, one has a pretty good idea of the rate of increase in population.
The transfusion service data showed an increase in numbers due to the investigation into the pool of sufferers and then a sharp move to a plateau once the population had been identified.  Increase, from that point on was negligible.

The Estonian government capitalised upon the scare stories and as a result got a shedload of money to treat HIV sufferers and, as a result, got significant upgrades to medical services overall.

As it is, the rate of increase in HIV has been very small, nothing at all similar to the projections from 15 years ago.
In addition the population is very different to that you'd be accustomed to in the US where it is, still, very largely, a gay plague. Here the infectees are almost certainly injecting drug users (which in this part of the world means the poorest of the poor) and from the Narva region.

Over time there is a slight tendency for the disease to spread and so Tallinn has seen a slight uptick in recent years.
Bottom line, unless one is a drug injecting pauper, or one is having unprotected anal sex with one such then there is nothing to fear. So, unlike the US, where intermixing of populations is quite likely and probably hard to know about, here, it is not hard to avoid because, as is usual, poor folks and rich folks don't usually mix and they sure as anything don't have sex together.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 18, 2015, 05:57:38 PM
Exclusive: The Pentagon Is Preparing New War Plans for a Baltic Battle Against Russia

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/18/exclusive-the-pentagon-is-preparing-new-war-plans-for-a-baltic-battle-against-russia/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 01, 2015, 06:26:16 PM
The Baltic States: The United States Must Be Prepared to Fulfill Its NATO Treaty Obligations

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2015/09/the-baltic-states-the-united-states-must-be-prepared-to-fulfill-its-nato-treaty-obligations
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 09, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Manny, why don't you explain to your fellow country folk, Russia is harmless, and the United states already has a monopoly on defending against the boogie man. :chuckle:

Michael Fallon: UK to send troops to Baltic states

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11918505/Michael-Fallon-UK-to-send-troops-to-Baltic-states.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: yankee on October 09, 2015, 01:47:07 PM
Manny, why don't you explain to your fellow country folk, Russia is harmless, and the United states already has a monopoly on defending against the boogie man. :chuckle:

Michael Fallon: UK to send troops to Baltic states

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11918505/Michael-Fallon-UK-to-send-troops-to-Baltic-states.html

I would say sending troops to the Baltic states is a very safe move.  Much safer than sending troops to fight ISIS.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on October 09, 2015, 01:50:45 PM
Every ten to 14 days there is a new 'battle plan' and a new deployment of NATO in Estonia. The hotels are doing a roaring trade acting as high end barracks.

The fitness club I use is situated in one of the nicer hotels here, I went by today and it was hoaching with Belgian and German junior officers. The place I used to go to has been hosting military for months and months; they seem to specialise in Americans with a fair mix of Europeans.

I am guessing that these guys are on per diems (PDs) because of an evening it is not too unusual to see 'em wandering up to their rooms with takeaways  and makings for sandwiches. It isn't as though life is too expensive here. One can get a basic dinner in the hotel restaurants for less than €20.

Suppose it makes a change from having to go home and shag the Mrs every weekend. Must be like a holiday, away with the lads and playing games in the countryside. I wonder if they get to do Paint-balling or go to see the Soviet era submarine pens at Paldiski like the other action/adventure tourists do.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on October 09, 2015, 02:42:55 PM
I would say sending troops to the Baltic states is a very safe move.  Much safer than sending troops to fight ISIS.

Exactly why they are there I think, Yankee. Estonia isn't a shabby place to be and its heaving with good looking, slim women. I bet American soldiers are loving it there.  :nod:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 25, 2015, 03:25:28 PM
I would say sending troops to the Baltic states is a very safe move.  Much safer than sending troops to fight ISIS.

Exactly why they are there I think, Yankee. Estonia isn't a shabby place to be and its heaving with good looking, slim women. I bet American soldiers are loving it there.  :nod:

This article shows the difference between Russian and western media.
The statements are mostly true, but the western media would put a completely different slant on it.
Batch of US Armored Vehicles Delivered to Baltic States (VIDEO)



(Quote)
Protection of the Baltic States is a safe haven. First of all, regardless of what the governments of the Baltic States say about Russian "aggression," NATO commanders understand that it's a myth and therefore it's much better to prove their solidarity in Estonia or Latvia than on a real battlefield.

http://m.sputniknews.com/military/20151025/1029094126/us-tanks-delivered-latvia.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on October 25, 2015, 04:54:58 PM
I would say sending troops to the Baltic states is a very safe move.  Much safer than sending troops to fight ISIS.

Exactly why they are there I think, Yankee. Estonia isn't a shabby place to be and its heaving with good looking, slim women. I bet American soldiers are loving it there.  :nod:

This article shows the difference between Russian and western media.
The statements are mostly true, but the western media would put a completely different slant on it.
Batch of US Armored Vehicles Delivered to Baltic States (VIDEO)



(Quote)
Protection of the Baltic States is a safe haven. First of all, regardless of what the governments of the Baltic States say about Russian "aggression," NATO commanders understand that it's a myth and therefore it's much better to prove their solidarity in Estonia or Latvia than on a real battlefield.

http://m.sputniknews.com/military/20151025/1029094126/us-tanks-delivered-latvia.html

Tom Cat how do you know the statements made in the article are true? Sputniknews.com is owned and operated by the Russian government therefore it is going to be against anything the west does. When was the last time you saw an article on sputniknews.com criticising Putin and/or the Russian government?

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on October 26, 2015, 12:30:15 AM
Sputniknews.com is owned and operated by the Russian government therefore it is going to be against anything the west does.

Only when they are wrong.

When was the last time you saw an article on sputniknews.com criticising Putin and/or the Russian government?

There is not that much to criticise unless you make it up as the western media does.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on October 26, 2015, 01:24:00 AM

Sputniknews.com is owned and operated by the Russian government therefore it is going to be against anything the west does.

Only when they are wrong.

Then I wait the honest confession that Russian and Chinese co-operation in Syria was desired 3 years ago and is FAR too late..

When was the last time you saw an article on sputniknews.com criticising Putin and/or the Russian government?

There is not that much to criticise unless you make it up as the western media does.

 :chuckle:

When I see Kremlin controlled media investigating corruption within Putin's political party, corruption in the courts and to obtain planning permission for large developments and asking for Mayors  / Regonal Heads to be elected - not appointed - I'll take you seriously.

I'm sure you subscribe to VVP's mate - F1 magnet Bernie Ecclestone ... ''Democracy doesn't allow one to getthings done'' .. :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on October 26, 2015, 05:49:01 AM
Westcoast, you really don't get how the media works do you?

Firstly, if there is nothing to disagree with, that is the audience has nothing to disagree with then a rational editor or sub-editor is unlikely to invent something about which to disagree - unless he or she was choosing to be dishonest.
With approval ratings of around 90% it is quite obvious that there is very little in respect of national politics and activity with which the Russian people disagree. So, what can an editor or sub-editor commission to make an illiterate foreigner like Westcoast happy? Answer is, not very much.

If the illiterate foreigner were less illiterate he might come across plenty of activity in matters such as corruption, local and regional politics and he might even come to understand that the media in Russia is very much more than he can (barely) understand in English.

You see Westy, because you have no way to consume media in a language you do not understand you have to fill in the blanks with a mixture of what your thought leaders tell you to think and your pre-existing prejudices into which your thought leaders actively play.

On a larger scale you do not understand the geopolitical situation. Do you REALLY think that Russia only wants conflict with the US? Do you REALLY think that Russia reaches out to the US seeking to be spurned?
If you understood a little more you'd come to realise that Russia is not anti everything western, far from it. Sputnik does not have the editorial line that you ascribe to them - in fact they are remarkably even handed.
If you knew a little more about Russia and Russian politics you'd understand that not only is the government and state not a single cohesive unit called Vladimir Putin but that very large parts of the state and government are active supporters of rapprochement with the west and particularly the U.S. You might want to Google the terms 'Atlanticists' and 'Medvedev Atlanticist' to increase your understanding - better yet if you do so in Cyrilic. ;)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 28, 2015, 06:30:07 PM
Firstly, Russia is not going to invade the Baltics.
But for arguments sake, if Russia did, would a few thousand troops be able to stop them?

All this is accomplishing is wasting taxpayers money, and doing nothing to improve relations with Russia.
I'm willing to bet the majority of Ukrainians feel their country was much more prosperous before the United states interfered.
I'm a firm believer that the world would be better off welcoming a strong Russia.
We have seen American influence in world affairs, and it's difficult to make an argument that the world is now better for their actions.



NATO Weighs A Serious Upping Of The Military Ante Against Russia — To The Tune Of 3,000 Troops

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/28/nato-weighs-a-serious-upping-of-the-military-ante-against-russia-to-the-tune-of-3000-troops/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on November 10, 2015, 05:15:22 PM
Duma Committee Chairman hits out at Baltic “Russophobia”

 2015-11-10BNS/TBT-STAFF/VILNIUSAccording to Alexei Pushkov, the chairman of the Russian State Duma’s Foreign Affairs Committee, Russophobia is now a state policy of the Baltic States, and Ukraine.  "We are witnessing a highly important and, in my opinion, a very dangerous phenomenon,” Pushkov told the Duma on November 10, 2015. “Russophobia is turning from sentiments into a policy, through a range of propaganda cliches and emotional outbursts, as well as individual provocations like that of comparing Russia with the Third Reich. “It appears to be a systemic ideological foundation that governs the current policies of a number of countries in the Western alliance.” Russophobia has already become the state policy of the Baltic states and now Ukraine in the most blatant way, he stressed, and added “it is absolutely impossible to deny this.” Pushkov also believes that "hostile actions against Russia are already viewed in the capitals of these countries as a goal in itself."

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/135991/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on November 10, 2015, 06:32:55 PM
Duma Committee Chairman hits out at Baltic “Russophobia”

 2015-11-10BNS/TBT-STAFF/VILNIUSAccording to Alexei Pushkov, the chairman of the Russian State Duma’s Foreign Affairs Committee, Russophobia is now a state policy of the Baltic States, and Ukraine.  "We are witnessing a highly important and, in my opinion, a very dangerous phenomenon,” Pushkov told the Duma on November 10, 2015. “Russophobia is turning from sentiments into a policy, through a range of propaganda cliches and emotional outbursts, as well as individual provocations like that of comparing Russia with the Third Reich. “It appears to be a systemic ideological foundation that governs the current policies of a number of countries in the Western alliance.” Russophobia has already become the state policy of the Baltic states and now Ukraine in the most blatant way, he stressed, and added “it is absolutely impossible to deny this.” Pushkov also believes that "hostile actions against Russia are already viewed in the capitals of these countries as a goal in itself."

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/135991/

Русские сказки or as I might say BS.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 11, 2015, 01:34:34 AM
Duma Committee Chairman hits out at Baltic “Russophobia”

 2015-11-10BNS/TBT-STAFF/VILNIUSAccording to Alexei Pushkov, the chairman of the Russian State Duma’s Foreign Affairs Committee, Russophobia is now a state policy of the Baltic States, and Ukraine.  "We are witnessing a highly important and, in my opinion, a very dangerous phenomenon,” Pushkov told the Duma on November 10, 2015. “Russophobia is turning from sentiments into a policy, through a range of propaganda cliches and emotional outbursts, as well as individual provocations like that of comparing Russia with the Third Reich. “It appears to be a systemic ideological foundation that governs the current policies of a number of countries in the Western alliance.” Russophobia has already become the state policy of the Baltic states and now Ukraine in the most blatant way, he stressed, and added “it is absolutely impossible to deny this.” Pushkov also believes that "hostile actions against Russia are already viewed in the capitals of these countries as a goal in itself."

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/135991/

Spot on.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on November 11, 2015, 03:18:51 AM


Русские сказки or as I might say BS.

You might write it, but you'd be factually incorrect in doing so.

But that does not usually hold you back, does it?

The very fact that the piece was covered in the Baltic Times says something - this is not an organ known for its open and inclusive policy toward Russia, never has been, probably never will be. On that basis if they report the words then, editorially, it is almost certain that there is an understanding that it is a true statement, otherwise they'd not have published it.

One only has to visit the area for a short time to understand what is going on and see it with one's own eyes.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: rosco on November 11, 2015, 04:50:22 AM

Sputniknews.com is owned and operated by the Russian government therefore it is going to be against anything the west does.

Only when they are wrong.

Then I wait the honest confession that Russian and Chinese co-operation in Syria was desired 3 years ago and is FAR too late..

When was the last time you saw an article on sputniknews.com criticising Putin and/or the Russian government?

There is not that much to criticise unless you make it up as the western media does.

 :chuckle:

When I see Kremlin controlled media investigating corruption within Putin's political party, corruption in the courts and to obtain planning permission for large developments and asking for Mayors  / Regonal Heads to be elected - not appointed - I'll take you seriously.

I'm sure you subscribe to VVP's mate - F1 magnet Bernie Ecclestone ... ''Democracy doesn't allow one to getthings done'' .. :chuckle:

Ah democracy, the only true path to righteousness. And those who don't have it.........well, let's force them!  (:)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: GuppyCaptain on November 11, 2015, 09:55:48 AM

Sputniknews.com is owned and operated by the Russian government therefore it is going to be against anything the west does.

Only when they are wrong.

Then I wait the honest confession that Russian and Chinese co-operation in Syria was desired 3 years ago and is FAR too late..

When was the last time you saw an article on sputniknews.com criticising Putin and/or the Russian government?

There is not that much to criticise unless you make it up as the western media does.

 :chuckle:

When I see Kremlin controlled media investigating corruption within Putin's political party, corruption in the courts and to obtain planning permission for large developments and asking for Mayors  / Regonal Heads to be elected - not appointed - I'll take you seriously.

I'm sure you subscribe to VVP's mate - F1 magnet Bernie Ecclestone ... ''Democracy doesn't allow one to getthings done'' .. :chuckle:

Ah democracy, the only true path to righteousness. And those who don't have it.........well, let's force them!  (:)

Yes. Democracy. Such a horrible thing. Much better to have oppressive regimes, no elections or rigged elections, no freedom of speech, state owned and controlled puppet media, etc, etc.

Yes, much better than democracy  (:)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 11, 2015, 10:07:10 AM
Much better to have oppressive regimes, no elections or rigged elections, no freedom of speech, state owned and controlled puppet media, etc, etc.

Sounds like the US or the UK. Just they are better at hiding it. Same stuff, different names.

I'd call a government that kills its own citizens and holds kidnapped prisoners - sometimes without trial - oppressive (US).

I'd call a government system that offers you a choice between A & B but whichever you vote for nothing will change akin to being rigged (US/UK).

I'd call a government that trumpets freedom of speech as long as nobody can hear you not as free as it claims. Become inconvenient and they will silence you somehow (Anywhere).

I'd call a government who can influence the media enough to write what it dictates controlled (US & UK).
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on November 11, 2015, 10:16:39 AM
I wonder if those above who trumpet the virtues of democracy would be capable of writing a short piece about WHY their favoured flavour of the democratic process is good for the electorate and why it is better than some other chosen form of democracy.

My guess is that those people could not do so and merely parrot out lines that they have been programmed to 'think'.

My guess is that those people are rather confused as to what 'democracy' actually is and what the limitations of the democratic process are.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 11, 2015, 10:35:04 AM
I like to ask those from the Land of the FreeTM why they cannot book a holiday to Cuba. 

Imagine Brits being barred from visiting France? :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on November 12, 2015, 11:22:34 AM
The Baltic states better treat their Russian population better.
Putin has said many times, he will protect Russian citizens wherever they live.


Kremlin blasts Baltic States over "massive human rights violations"

 http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136003/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on November 12, 2015, 11:31:57 AM
The Baltic states better treat their Russian population better.
Putin has said many times, he will protect Russian citizens wherever they live.


Kremlin blasts Baltic States over "massive human rights violations"

 http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136003/

Sergei Naryshkin doesn't say what the "massive human rights violations in the Baltic republics" are. Other than mentioning there are neo Nazi movements in the Baltic states which is strange since there are neo Nazi groups in Russia.

Is Naryshkin also saying Russia is violating the human rights of minorities in Russia because there are neo Nazi groups in Russia?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 12, 2015, 11:59:42 AM
Sergei Naryshkin doesn't say what the "massive human rights violations in the Baltic republics" are.

He does. Learn English. He is talking of grey passport holders who are forced to take a local state language test if they want a local passport, which is illegal and a breach of their human rights.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on November 12, 2015, 12:29:34 PM
Sergei Naryshkin doesn't say what the "massive human rights violations in the Baltic republics" are.

He does. Learn English. He is talking of grey passport holders who are forced to take a local state language test if they want a local passport, which is illegal and a breach of their human rights.

Try again. No mention of grey passport holders. No mention of state language tests. No links to other sites for clarification of his statements.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on November 12, 2015, 01:12:48 PM
Oh dear, Westy, sadly sometimes a certain degree of knowledge is expected to be present.

The article makes several references to the issue. Because you know so little, and couldn't be bothered to check the stuff that obviously would have made no sense to you, you managed to get yourself into a right little tizzy.

It should be noted that the publication is called the Baltic Times. The name is a clue, it is a publication from the Baltic states and read by people with connections to the region. Every reader who is a part of the publication's demographic would already know all about the grey passport issue and would feel patronised if the writer explained everything in words of one syllable and with no implied knowledge, as if written for the terminally uninformed.

Here's how you could have dealt with the article, given the obvious holes in your knowledge:
where points were made that meant nothing to you you could have used a search engine to inform you of the background. Then you would have bought yourself up to speed on the implicit knowledge burden of the piece.
But you, as an international banker and businessman surely know this stuff already?
You already know how to read journals and articles on subjects new to you - that's a part of your job, right?

In the absence of a desire to actually learn stuff can I suggest a news site that is probably closer to your level: CLICK HERE! (http://www.timeforkids.com/news)
If you have any problems with that site then you can always ask for help from the new, younger, members of your household.

Here's another one in a similar vein, from the UK: CLICK HERE! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/news)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on November 12, 2015, 02:55:36 PM
He is talking of grey passport holders who are forced to take a local state language test if they want a local passport, which is illegal and a breach of their human rights.
  I don't think it is fair to ask folk who had nothing to do with the running of the USSR to have to agree that Latvia / Estonia were occupied in order to get their citizenship - but who is saying it is a breach of human rights to have to take a relatively simple language test ?

The EU have ensured that the holders of grey passports can travel freely and they don't need visas to go to Russia - unlike those who acquire Estonian / Latvian citizenship - hence many PREFER not to be citizens.

Manny, you do know that under the modified Citizenship act of  2002 you need to be able to speak Russian  - unless waived by executive order..?

So, why is is wrong for Estonia / Latvia to make being able to speak the language a rule - but not for Russia ?










Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: rosco on November 12, 2015, 03:30:10 PM

Sputniknews.com is owned and operated by the Russian government therefore it is going to be against anything the west does.

Only when they are wrong.

Then I wait the honest confession that Russian and Chinese co-operation in Syria was desired 3 years ago and is FAR too late..

When was the last time you saw an article on sputniknews.com criticising Putin and/or the Russian government?

There is not that much to criticise unless you make it up as the western media does.

 :chuckle:

When I see Kremlin controlled media investigating corruption within Putin's political party, corruption in the courts and to obtain planning permission for large developments and asking for Mayors  / Regonal Heads to be elected - not appointed - I'll take you seriously.

I'm sure you subscribe to VVP's mate - F1 magnet Bernie Ecclestone ... ''Democracy doesn't allow one to getthings done'' .. :chuckle:

Ah democracy, the only true path to righteousness. And those who don't have it.........well, let's force them!  (:)

Yes. Democracy. Such a horrible thing. Much better to have oppressive regimes, no elections or rigged elections, no freedom of speech, state owned and controlled puppet media, etc, etc.

Yes, much better than democracy  (:)

It's worthy of a greater political debate if we could be arsed, I've done it before. Democracy is fantastic when you have 5 people voting on which bar to head to next. It's fair and reflects the majority opinion. Democracy in this case is fantastic.

Voting in a two faced b@st@rd with delusions of grandeur, who then abuses their position once in power to attain the goals of a minority......isn't democracy my friend. Although........we are led to believe its best!

Tell me though, why should this be imposed on cultures around the world who have different values to ourselves? Do you genuinely believe that's best for the countries or the US?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on November 12, 2015, 04:03:27 PM
He is talking of grey passport holders who are forced to take a local state language test if they want a local passport, which is illegal and a breach of their human rights.
  I don't think it is fair to ask folk who had nothing to do with the running of the USSR to have to agree that Latvia / Estonia were occupied in order to get their citizenship - but who is saying it is a breach of human rights to have to take a relatively simple language test ?

The EU have ensured that the holders of grey passports can travel freely and they don't need visas to go to Russia - unlike those who acquire Estonian / Latvian citizenship - hence many PREFER not to be citizens.

Manny, you do know that under the modified Citizenship act of  2002 you need to be able to speak Russian  - unless waived by executive order..?

So, why is is wrong for Estonia / Latvia to make being able to speak the language a rule - but not for Russia ?

Manny do you believe it, Moby's correct. This is happening more and more often.  :laugh:

4.2.1 General order of admission (naturalisation) into Russian citizenship
5) That they have command or understanding of the Russian language.

http://eudo-citizenship.eu/docs/CountryReports/Russia.pdf

Manny, Andrew seems only fair that if Russia requires command or understanding of Russian to be naturalized then it can't be wrong for Estonia to require command of Estonian in order to be a citizen.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 12, 2015, 04:16:11 PM

Manny, Andrew seems only fair that if Russia requires command or understanding of Russian to be naturalized then it can't be wrong for Estonia to require command of Estonian in order to be a citizen.
 

Estonia is a multilingual country; nobody can get by on Estonian alone unless Billy no mates. Apples and oranges.

You should probably read up on the history of this before blathering further.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on November 12, 2015, 04:29:15 PM

Manny, Andrew seems only fair that if Russia requires command or understanding of Russian to be naturalized then it can't be wrong for Estonia to require command of Estonian in order to be a citizen.
 

Estonia is a multilingual country; nobody can get by on Estonian alone unless Billy no mates. Apples and oranges.

You should probably read up on the history of this before blathering further.

Manny did you know that a number of the Russian republics have official languages other than Russian? Guess you can't get by with only Russian in some parts of Russia. Try to keep up. Looks like Google wins again. tiphat
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 12, 2015, 04:40:05 PM

Manny, Andrew seems only fair that if Russia requires command or understanding of Russian to be naturalized then it can't be wrong for Estonia to require command of Estonian in order to be a citizen.
 

Estonia is a multilingual country; nobody can get by on Estonian alone unless Billy no mates. Apples and oranges.

You should probably read up on the history of this before blathering further.

Manny did you know that a number of the Russian republics have official languages other than Russian? Guess you can't get by with only Russian in some parts of Russia. Try to keep up. Looks like Google wins again. tiphat

No Westy, my having spent considerable time in Estonia over 18 years rather trumps your Googling.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on November 12, 2015, 08:37:37 PM
Once in a while, the western media kinda gets it right.

6 reasons not to worry about Russia invading the Baltics

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/12/6-reasons-not-to-worry-about-russia-invading-the-baltics/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on November 12, 2015, 09:42:24 PM
Once in a while, the western media kinda gets it right.

6 reasons not to worry about Russia invading the Baltics

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/12/6-reasons-not-to-worry-about-russia-invading-the-baltics/

1. Vladimir Putin can’t keep the Baltics out of NATO or the E.U.

Many analysts have said one of the reasons Putin might invade the Baltics would be if he thought NATO and the US wouldn't act to protect the Baltics. This inaction on the part of the US and NATO would effectively 'break' NATO as an effective military force against Russia.

2. Russia will never have a seat at the table in Baltic politics

Russia already has a seat at the table in Baltic politics. Russia is continually talking about the "massive human rights violations" in the Baltics.

3. The Baltics don’t have the same symbolic meaning as Ukraine and Crimea

This one might be true.

4. Russian access to Kaliningrad is not threatened. For now.

A land route between Russia and Kaliningrad would be better and easier to transport equipment than by air or sea.

5. Baltic Russians are not Crimean, Donbas or Russian Russians

True however there are those on RUA who say thousands of westerns are immigrating to Russia every year, if true, why wouldn't citizens of the Baltic countries want to live on the kind benevolence of Daddy Putin and welcome an invasion by Russian forces? After all most of the European and American men on RUA who married Russian women have decided living in Russia is better than living in their own country.

6. A Russian hybrid attack wouldn’t stay secret for long

True however military analysts say that Russian forces would be solidly entrenched in the Baltic countries before NATO and the US could act to prevent invasion. That would mean a long and bloody fight to rid the Baltics of Russian forces.

Again this brings up the question of would NATO and the US be willing to pay the price in dead soldiers to rid the Baltics of Russian forces?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on November 19, 2015, 06:10:46 PM
Russian refugees. :chuckle:

Baltic States Get EU Funds By Passing Their Non-Citizens Off as ‘Refugees’

83114016:14 19.11.2015(updated 19:12 19.11.2015)The Baltic States are about to face a large-scale scandal after media revealed they scammed the EU’s refugee re-settlement system by labelling their Russian-speaking populations as “refugees,

http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20151119/1030394327.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on November 20, 2015, 01:56:47 AM

Estonia is a multilingual country; nobody can get by on Estonian alone unless Billy no mates. Apples and oranges.

You should probably read up on the history of this before blathering further.

Like Ukraine, Estonia has Russian as a language because it was deemed so by the conquering occupier.

But there is no pint labouring the why - it's just the situation now, and former USSR nations prefer to promote their national language and identity - now having the choice...

Certainly, it is quite wrong to penalise those who through no fault of their own - speak another language - and were born in the nation choosing another language in preference.

I have also lived in nations were language is a touchy subject. Manny, how does knowing Estonia negate the point that Russia says you must know Russia when many of it's republics have people using it rarely - preferring their own  ?

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on November 20, 2015, 04:33:10 PM
After the abuse and misuse via the Soviet Union the Baltic States did respond in ways that are not charitable or fair to the Russian minority. Is this abuse when considers proposals from other European countries regarding non-native (local) populations?

I am amused by the query would Andrefi be in the Baltic States if the current freedoms (both personal and tax) offered via the European Union were not in place.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 20, 2015, 06:09:50 PM

who is saying it is a breach of human rights to have to take a relatively simple language test ?

People who lived all their lives speaking Russian, who don't want to be forced to learn an urdy gurdy language [that bears no similarity to their own tongue] at an advanced age simply to get a passport.

Estonia promised the EU [to join] that these people would be exempted; they lied. Estonia (and I think Lithuania and Latvia too) are denying some native Russian speakers basic human rights. Simply because they want to speak the language they grew up speaking in Estonia: Russian. That is discriminatory.

As an analogy, imagine all Canadians were forced to take a French language test before getting a passport. For many Canadians, French might as well be Swahili. They have no interest in it, it doesn't feature in their day to day lives. Should they learn it simply to be allowed the basic human right of free travel? Of course not.......

Imagine us being forced to learn Welsh to get a UK passport. Same thing. Actually, that is a better analogy. The situation is almost identical if London were moved to the Welsh valleys tomorrow. Imagine a Mancunian (50 miles from Wales) or a Scot (not so far away) being told he must learn Welsh before he can have a passport? The people in Narva feel the same when asked to learn Estonian.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on November 23, 2015, 02:04:20 AM
who is saying it is a breach of human rights to have to take a relatively simple language test ?




People who lived all their lives speaking Russian, who don't want to be forced to learn an urdy gurdy language [that bears no similarity to their own tongue] at an advanced age simply to get a passport.

As you know, such people are unique as they do not require a visa to go to Russia or to other Schengen nations ... many CHOOSE not to take this test for THAT reason, alone. I'm sure Estonians think Russia sounds like it is a recording played backwards, but that is just as silly / ignorant an observation.too.

Estonia promised the EU [to join] that these people would be exempted; they lied. Estonia (and I think Lithuania and Latvia too) are denying some native Russian speakers basic human rights. Simply because they want to speak the language they grew up speaking in Estonia: Russian. That is discriminatory.

Manny, Lithuania granted ALL former Soviet nationals resident at the time of leaving the USSR the option of Lithuanian Citizenship. It had proportionally less Russian speakers. Hardly 'discriminatory'. The EU agreed the language tests were fair.



As an analogy, imagine all Canadians were forced to take a French language test before getting a passport. For many Canadians, French might as well be Swahili. They have no interest in it, it doesn't feature in their day to day lives. Should they learn it simply to be allowed the basic human right of free travel? Of course not.......

Not a wise analogy .. 

1/ French is the minor language - English is spoken by more Canadians
2/ French is largely confined to specific areas and the 'French' speakers - if you hear what the French say about French Canadian, you'd understand [  :chuckle: ] have had referendums to leave Canada and chose to stay...


Imagine us being forced to learn Welsh to get a UK passport. Same thing. Actually, that is a better analogy. The situation is almost identical if London were moved to the Welsh valleys tomorrow. Imagine a Mancunian (50 miles from Wales) or a Scot (not so far away) being told he must learn Welsh before he can have a passport? The people in Narva feel the same when asked to learn Estonian.

Even worse analogies.

1 / Welsh speakers have the option to apply for their passport in Welsh

2/ Narva is not a Russian name in origin and when it had the chance to vote on it's status, in 1918 Narva voted to be part of an Independent Estonia - not that the Bolsheviks respected that - invading in Nov 1918 - kicked out a year later - only to return - having destroyed the city - in '44 -  didn't allow the locals to return - having planted Russian speakers - leaving  in '89 having forcibly changed the demographics

More Russian speakers have Estonian citizenship that Russian or 'Alien Passports' 46.7 percent v 36.3 percent v 13.3 percent - 2013 figures

Source wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva)

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 23, 2015, 09:59:04 AM
2/ Narva is not a Russian name in origin and when it had the chance to vote on it's status, in 1918 Narva voted to be part of an Independent Estonia -

Pesky Russians, they should have been happy with that vote 97 years ago eh?  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on November 23, 2015, 02:57:21 PM
The Baltics seems to be United with Ukraine. Maybe they are just a tad bit worried about Russia.

Baltic Leaders call on world to not forget Ukraine in wake of Paris attacks

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136046/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on November 24, 2015, 01:20:53 AM
The Baltics seems to be United with Ukraine. Maybe they are just a tad bit worried about Russia.

Baltic Leaders call on world to not forget Ukraine in wake of Paris attacks

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136046/

The Baltics are three separate countries with differing needs and foreign policy plans.

Estonia has provided covert but non negligible support to Ukraine's military efforts.

Fear of Russia is an invented meme designed to further Estonian government goals. It would be hard to find a genuine basis for such fears but it is not hard to find genuine, as far as the government is concerned, benefits from those invented fears.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on November 24, 2015, 07:21:57 AM
Quote
As an analogy, imagine all Canadians were forced to take a French language test before getting a passport. For many Canadians, French might as well be Swahili. They have no interest in it, it doesn't feature in their day to day lives. Should they learn it simply to be allowed the basic human right of free travel? Of course not.......

Bad example since "Canadians" wouldn't need to take any test before getting a passport.  A "Soviet National" would be more akin to an immigrant to Canada who is a permanent resident but who never obtained that Canadian citizenship.  Actually...there ARE Canadian Permanent Residents who have never obtained Citizenship or a passport because they just never needed or wanted it.  My father being one.  66 years in Canada, two Canadian citizen children...and to get a passport today he would HAVE to take a language test to get citizenship and that passport. 

SMART immigrants see this not as an obstacle to a passport...but as a necessity to life in a country where English (or French) is the official language and is used by almost all society.  Where having that language allows them to exist, fit in...and even thrive in a predominantly English society. 

Immigrants who do not want to learn English to get citizenship and the eventual passport...well I would question their choice of country to live in as well as their dedication to being Canadian.  If they want to live in an enclave and ghettoize themselves so be it.  But one of the things they can't complain about is not having a Canadian passport.  Those are just the rules which they signed up for by coming to Canada.

Same goes for the Soviets in Eesti.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on November 24, 2015, 09:53:48 AM
Froid, you may want to crack open a history book. There are no 'soviets' in Estonia. The Soviet Union closed down many years ago. Many of the stateless people in Estonia were born here. Quite a few of them speak Estonian party well.

The legal basis for the institutionalised discrimination is very shaky indeed.

I agree that it is reasonable to ask people new to a country and seeking citizenship to speak one of the local languages. Many Estonians speak a local langugae, have lived here since birth and are not able to be citizens - I have no doubt that you can understand the difference between the two cases, cracking upon that history book will help you!
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: froid on November 24, 2015, 10:33:50 AM
Ahhh Andrew don't worry, I know that soviets don't exist.  I just found it too convoluted and inefficient to write out "Russian's born and living in Estonian territory when Estonia was part of the Soviets and who continue to be for all intents and purposes Russian".  Just like how I find it inefficient to give your side mouthed attempts at humour any thought.

If the bar is not set THAT high...and really I myself could be an Estonian in about 3 months if I wanted to apply myself to that endeavour so I don't see that hurdle being one that is a matter to complain about.  Calling it a human rights violation is laughable.

The intellectual basis for not learning a little language and getting their passport is just as shaky as well. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AKA Luke on November 24, 2015, 12:02:22 PM

The intellectual basis for not learning a little language and getting their passport is just as shaky as well.


Indeed. We've all aware of what a lack of integration causes from various communities in the UK and elsewhere in Western Europe.

Let's hope they don't get passports, we've enough dregs here from everywhere else we don't need anymore.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on November 24, 2015, 01:07:49 PM
Except that Russian should be a recognised language in Estonia.

Well it actually is by everyone but the government. Seldom will you find a company, restaurant or bank that doesn't have their printed matter in Russian as well and speakers on the staff.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on December 01, 2015, 03:17:28 PM
Interesting, Lithuania feels threatened, while Latvia would be willing to join Russia in fighting ISIS.

Wonder if the difference in attitudes might have to do with the media sources reporting?

Lithuania says Russian military activity stoking tension in Baltics

Tue Dec 1

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN0TK5G220151201?irpc=932

Latvia prepared to coordinate with Russia against ISIS

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136065/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on December 25, 2015, 06:57:12 PM


Lukoil leaves Baltic States due to ‘anti-Russian sentiment

https://www.rt.com/business/327088-lukoil-oil-baltic-states/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on December 26, 2015, 03:54:15 AM

Lukoil leaves Baltic States due to ‘anti-Russian sentiment

https://www.rt.com/business/327088-lukoil-oil-baltic-states/

I am beginning to think that 99.9% of what RT poops out is simply bull shit or out right lies.

Lukoil earlier this year agreded to sell there holdings to Estena Energy(?). Lukoil has sold there holdings in Hungary, Czech Republic and elsewhere over the past years to concentrate on markets where they have a larger market share. One of these markets where they are stronger is in fact The United States where they own Getty and I think Conoco as well as selling oil under the Lukoil brand.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on December 26, 2015, 04:27:08 AM
Do the reading and you will get a better understanding of what you are told to think.

Know that when one uses numbers such as 99.9% then knowledge and understanding have been discarded.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on December 26, 2015, 06:53:45 AM
Do the reading and you will get a better understanding of what you are told to think.

Know that when one uses numbers such as 99.9% then knowledge and understanding have been discarded.

99.9 % is a bit of hyperbole - I think everyone understands that. The reality is too many only look at one side or at the other and do not consider all the options.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on December 26, 2015, 11:07:12 AM
I saw Lukoil stations in the Netherlands (Zaandam), was funny. Almost 7 ct / litre cheaper than regular brands.

Diesel was 0.97Euro/Litre as of 24-12 , which is cheaper than my hometown cheapest station (1.07/litre)  , but other Zaandam stations had 1.04/litre, I wonder if thats because of the lukoil competition.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on December 27, 2015, 10:14:11 AM
Of course the oil sold in Lukoil petrol stations may well not come from Russia or Russian upstream suppliers.

Most likely just seeing normal market forces.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on December 27, 2015, 11:58:51 AM
Of course the oil sold in Lukoil petrol stations may well not come from Russia or Russian upstream suppliers.

Most likely just seeing normal market forces.
Lukoil owns a (big) refinery in Netherlands.

All of them quoted from wikipedia below.

Netherlands

    Shell Pernis Refinery (Royal Dutch Shell), 416,000 bbl/d (66,100 m3/d)
    Botlek (ExxonMobil) Rotterdam, 195,000 bbl/d (31,000 m3/d)
    BP Rotterdam Refinery (BP), 400,000 bbl/d (64,000 m3/d)
    Q8-KPE Refinery Europoort (Q8-Kuwait Petroleum Company), 80,000 bbl/d (13,000 m3/d)
    Koch HC Partnership Refinery (Koch Industries) 80,000 bbl/d (13,000 m3/d)[19]
    Zeeland Refinery (Total/Lukoil) 149,000 bbl/d (23,700 m3/d)[20]

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on December 28, 2015, 02:35:32 AM
Yes,  but oil suppliers tend to aggregate deliveries. Thus a Shell station may well get oil from a Lukoil supplier and vice versa. Is a matter of convenience given that the product is the same. Any 'secret additives' just get chucked into the tanks in the petrol station when the delivery is made.

That was what I was getting at. The product is completely fungible. Hence pricing is down to market forces rather than basic product cost.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on December 28, 2015, 12:49:30 PM
IBT: Russia calls on US to drop troops and weapons from Baltics, Eastern Europe

http://uatoday.tv/politics/ibt-russia-calls-on-us-to-drop-troops-and-weapons-from-baltics-eastern-europe-563038.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on December 28, 2015, 03:54:27 PM
IBT: Russia calls on US to drop troops and weapons from Baltics, Eastern Europe

http://uatoday.tv/politics/ibt-russia-calls-on-us-to-drop-troops-and-weapons-from-baltics-eastern-europe-563038.html

Tom Cat why would NATO and the Baltic countries decide to move troops and weapons from countries in eastern Europe when Putin has just admitted Russia has and has had military forces in Ukraine?

If anything Putin's statements about having always had Russian military forces in Ukraine would encourage NATO and the FSU countries to increase their military preparedness. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on January 04, 2016, 02:44:25 PM


Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov blasts "hysterical" Baltic states

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136170/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on January 04, 2016, 05:07:17 PM
Westcoast where do your carers get this tommyrot that you share here from.

The Russian president simply has not said that which you claim he has.

Is this something that your carers do to embarrass you? I think they don't like you very much.

Maybe you should start reading for yourself again.
(Note to WestCoast's carers: please encourage your charge to read for himself. You do him no favours by reducing his independence in this way. You probably don't know this but he was once a famous international banker and businessman. Please give him some of his dignity back!)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on January 05, 2016, 02:30:30 AM


Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov blasts "hysterical" Baltic states

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136170/
I always think of the baltics as some chihuahua's standing next to a huge bullmastiff (russia). the thing is a very friendly, albeit big dog, so they keep yapping at it aggressivly in hopes it won't attack them. But they could rest easily as it won't attack them because it sees them as little to no threat at all.

Just like the baltics are no threat to Russia or could ever become one in the next 50 years.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on January 11, 2016, 10:56:51 AM
Another false alarm.

Fake: Russian Security Council Secretary wants to send Russian troops into the Baltics

http://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-russian-security-council-secretary-wants-to-send-russian-troops-into-the-baltics/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on January 11, 2016, 11:06:43 AM
Rethinking how to contain the mythical Russian war machine. :chuckle:


A Bold New Baltic Strategy for NATO

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/bold-new-baltic-strategy-nato-14818
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: TomT on January 11, 2016, 11:44:05 AM
Westcoast where do your carers get this tommyrot that you share here from.

We call them "caregivers" in the West.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on January 11, 2016, 11:55:42 AM
Westcoast where do your carers get this tommyrot that you share here from.

We call them "caregivers" in the West.
I will update my terminology, thank you.
I may have been confusing poor Westcoast even more than he already is due to my incorrect usage.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on January 11, 2016, 09:36:38 PM
Westcoast where do your carers get this tommyrot that you share here from.


Andy if anyone is in need of a caregiver it is most certainly you. You admit you let yourself go and are now 100+ pounds overweight, on meds for blood pressure and who knows what else. Heart meds? Diabetes meds? What else?

Are you using a walker? Do you need oxygen on a regular basis? Are you thinking of getting a scooter to make getting around easier? Wouldn't life be easier for you with a scooter? Just hop on the scooter and ride down to the pub for a couple of quick pints and then over to McDonald's for a couple of burgers and fries.

Did you notice how many times I found faults with you posts? You were wrong so many times in 2015 you should have a discussion with your doctor about whether or not you have dementia. 


We call them "caregivers" in the West.

Tom, you literally travelled to the other side of the world to find a woman you couldn't find in the US. More than one hundred and 60 million women in the US and you couldn't find a wife in the US? Really?

Tom, the bad news is it isn't the fault of the American women it's definitely your fault. Even your friend Andy (and others) has marvelled at how American men feel the need to travel to the FSU to find a wife when there are so many women in the US.

The good news is there's help. Counselling will help you look deep inside yourself and find your failings, your inadequacies, your limitations. With a few years of counselling you may emerge a better man. 


Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Jerash on January 11, 2016, 09:58:20 PM
How old are you guys? You talk to each other like the most insecure children imaginable. Seriously.


.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Jerash on January 11, 2016, 10:06:00 PM
By the way, Westy, I am literally looking to the other side of the world to find my girl. About women here? Not sure, haven't looked into it farther than to realize it wasn't very interesting. It is not desperation, Westy, it is fascination and adventurousness. You wouldn't understand this as you have never bothered to travel to FSU. Just sit on your cushy chair at a distance and talk like a pseudo pro. Don't bullocks the rest of us who actually have an interest in FSU and its people by accusing of desperation.


.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on January 11, 2016, 11:27:42 PM
By the way, Westy, I am literally looking to the other side of the world to find my girl. About women here? Not sure, haven't looked into it farther than to realize it wasn't very interesting. It is not desperation, Westy, it is fascination and adventurousness. You wouldn't understand this as you have never bothered to travel to FSU. Just sit on your cushy chair at a distance and talk like a pseudo pro. Don't bullocks the rest of us who actually have an interest in FSU and its people by accusing of desperation.


.

Jerash I think you'll find there are a number of people on RUA who say the same thing about travelling to the other side of the world to find a wife.

Canada has about 35 million people, half are women. On the other hand, with the Russian economy in a slump and the economies of Ukraine and the stans in even worse condition there are probably more than a few women looking to the EU and North America for a new life.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on January 12, 2016, 03:19:11 AM

Canada has about 35 million people, half are women. On the other hand, with the Russian economy in a slump and the economies of Ukraine and the stans in even worse condition there are probably more than a few women looking to the EU and North America for a new life.


True, but do you want to find someone to share a life with or someone sizing up your wallet   :laugh:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Wiz on January 17, 2016, 12:09:12 AM
By the way, Westy, I am literally looking to the other side of the world to find my girl. About women here? Not sure, haven't looked into it farther than to realize it wasn't very interesting. It is not desperation, Westy, it is fascination and adventurousness. You wouldn't understand this as you have never bothered to travel to FSU. Just sit on your cushy chair at a distance and talk like a pseudo pro. Don't bullocks the rest of us who actually have an interest in FSU and its people by accusing of desperation.

With only 64 posts..... on RUA and you challenge an old hat and a professional Faceless Troll with 8581 posts?  :ROFL:

Ah ... sorry you have already visited the FSU, got the taste and obviously know better what you are talking about from somebody who never been there!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on January 28, 2016, 01:22:48 PM
Latvian Defence Minister - Russian snap military drills "very dangerous" to Baltic states

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136271/
Title: Re:Russian winding up the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on January 28, 2016, 09:56:37 PM
Latvian Defence Minister - Russian snap military drills "very dangerous" to Baltic states

http://m.baltictimes.com/article/jcms/id/136271/

Bearing in mind the nation carrying out the exercises has already played away from home in several of it's neighbours and has had the question of the legality of the Baltic States ceding from the USSR being questioned / investigated by the Russian prosecutor general's office on prime time tv, recently - a not surprising statement ...


 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on January 29, 2016, 07:09:48 AM
The boots on the other foot now, and the yanks don't like it one bit...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/639176/Russia-fighter-jet-intercept-USA-spy-plane-Black-Sea
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on January 29, 2016, 08:07:38 PM
The boots on the other foot now, and the yanks don't like it one bit...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/639176/Russia-fighter-jet-intercept-USA-spy-plane-Black-Sea

The 'clue' was in the alleged 'dangerous, unprofessional'  intercept...   I haven't seen Russian tv reporting their Bears get rocked by the RAF ...




Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on January 30, 2016, 01:56:25 AM
The boots on the other foot now, and the yanks don't like it one bit...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/639176/Russia-fighter-jet-intercept-USA-spy-plane-Black-Sea

Odd how Russia is "aggressive" when the Black Sea is nowhere near the US. It is quite correct to intercept a US spy plane that was near Russia. Gotta show the Yanks where the boundaries lie, as we know they are not too hot at navigation as they manage to bomb so many hospitals.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on January 30, 2016, 03:33:51 AM
Odd how Russia is "aggressive" when the Black Sea is nowhere near the US. It is quite correct to intercept a US spy plane that was near Russia. Gotta show the Yanks where the boundaries lie, as we know they are not too hot at navigation as they manage to bomb so many hospitals.

Oh dear - is that why my post re HRW pointing out the Russians had killed many civilians never saw the light of day  ?

Let's be honest here .. the best targeting in the world - is as reliable as the guy who lights up the target... :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on January 30, 2016, 05:41:21 PM


Odd how Russia is "aggressive" when the Black Sea is nowhere near the US. It is quite correct to intercept a US spy plane that was near Russia. Gotta show the Yanks where the boundaries lie, as we know they are not too hot at navigation as they manage to bomb so many hospitals.

..and Russia hasn't bombed any civilian targets in Syria  :coffeeread: ?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/20/russia/syria-extensive-recent-use-cluster-munitions (https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/20/russia/syria-extensive-recent-use-cluster-munitions)

Just keeping wrongs in perspective..
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on January 31, 2016, 08:14:31 AM
An honest person would tend to not rely upon a dishonest or ambiguous source to make a point but then that'd be out of keeping for Alfy/moby.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on January 31, 2016, 08:21:24 AM
Odd how Russia is "aggressive" when the Black Sea is nowhere near the US. It is quite correct to intercept a US spy plane that was near Russia. Gotta show the Yanks where the boundaries lie, as we know they are not too hot at navigation as they manage to bomb so many hospitals.

Oh dear - is that why my post re HRW pointing out the Russians had killed many civilians never saw the light of day  ?

Let's be honest here .. the best targeting in the world - is as reliable as the guy who lights up the target... :coffeeread:

They don't hit hospitals unlike your yankee friends..
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on January 31, 2016, 08:23:12 AM
The boots on the other foot now, and the yanks don't like it one bit...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/639176/Russia-fighter-jet-intercept-USA-spy-plane-Black-Sea

The 'clue' was in the alleged 'dangerous, unprofessional'  intercept...   I haven't seen Russian tv reporting their Bears get rocked by the RAF ...

Probably because "Getting rocked by NATO warplanes" is past of their daily routine.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on January 31, 2016, 08:29:49 AM


Odd how Russia is "aggressive" when the Black Sea is nowhere near the US. It is quite correct to intercept a US spy plane that was near Russia. Gotta show the Yanks where the boundaries lie, as we know they are not too hot at navigation as they manage to bomb so many hospitals.

..and Russia hasn't bombed any civilian targets in Syria  :coffeeread: ?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/20/russia/syria-extensive-recent-use-cluster-munitions (https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/20/russia/syria-extensive-recent-use-cluster-munitions)

Just keeping wrongs in perspective..

Do you have any REAL evidence of this.

And, if it does happen, its TOUGH, because, there is a distinct possibility that these civilians will shoot you in the back if they could, they are all cut from the same cloth.

But, a conscious objector like you would always argue different.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on January 31, 2016, 05:55:46 PM



Do you have any REAL evidence of this.

I only posted the HRW link..I could have used A.I's..Amnesty International..  Are you seriously suggesting it isn't true?!  ...If you read the reports from Donbas..do you get the feeling they go 'easy' on Kiev forces ?...


And, if it does happen, its TOUGH, because, there is a distinct possibility that these civilians will shoot you in the back if they could, they are all cut from the same cloth.

But, a conscious objector like you would always argue different.


Did ou tead the whole article...?

Their is the distinct possibility they were the poorest of poor...possibly unable to escape...or having elderly relations and their mistake was living in an area that did not support Assad.

I object to nations taking sides with dictaors to protect their interests... but Russia is not alone in this.




.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on February 01, 2016, 08:08:11 AM




Do you have any REAL evidence of this.

I only posted the HRW link..I could have used A.I's..Amnesty International..  Are you seriously suggesting it isn't true?!  ...If you read the reports from Donbas..do you get the feeling they go 'easy' on Kiev forces ?...


And, if it does happen, its TOUGH, because, there is a distinct possibility that these civilians will shoot you in the back if they could, they are all cut from the same cloth.

But, a conscious objector like you would always argue different.


Did ou tead the whole article...?

Their is the distinct possibility they were the poorest of poor...possibly unable to escape...or having elderly relations and their mistake was living in an area that did not support Assad.

I object to nations taking sides with dictaors to protect their interests... but Russia is not alone in this.




.


All Western press go easy on Ukraine, especially AI, OSCE and HSW, they have to on orders from the USA.

Glad that you object to nations siding with Dictators, you were obviously thinking about the USA siding with Turkey & KSA.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on February 01, 2016, 08:11:15 AM
FFS
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on February 01, 2016, 04:00:37 PM



All Western press go easy on Ukraine, especially AI, OSCE and HSW, they have to on orders from the USA.

Nice attempt at deflection...

Remember this was Manny's fault for bringing up the US howler..... At least they have acknowledged the error......

So,  you think AI and HRW are the 'press' and give the US or western govts. less grief?!!  ....

Clearly you were in selective mode if you've ever read their reports in Donbas or the use of cluster bombs..not just in Syria..
..but Georgia...by BOTH the Kremlin ang Georgian forces.... it was confirmed in the EU report..

Your objectivity radar appears to be need recalibrating...




Glad that you object to nations siding with Dictators, you were obviously thinking about the USA siding with Turkey & KSA.

I wasn't aware Erdogan had come to power without a vote..

I was thinking about any nation supporting dictators and ignoring their HR records...



.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on February 03, 2016, 12:27:01 PM
It seems that there might be an invasion of Estonia - from Ukraine.

The idea is being floated that rather than take refugees of different colour, ones who don't match the existing colour scheme, that Estonia should take Ukrainian refugees instead. That if Estonia takes these matching people then they can deny a responsibility to accept people who don't match the existing colour scheme.

Of course, there's not many refugees to be found in Ukraine now, they would almost certainly be economic migrants, but that is of less import than the fact that they will not stand out on the streets of Estonia.

CLICK HERE! (http://rus.delfi.ee/daily/estonia/novaya-ideya-2000-ukrainskih-voennyh-bezhencev-v-estoniyu?id=73584651)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on February 03, 2016, 12:51:10 PM



All Western press go easy on Ukraine, especially AI, OSCE and HSW, they have to on orders from the USA.

Nice attempt at deflection...

Remember this was Manny's fault for bringing up the US howler..... At least they have acknowledged the error......

So,  you think AI and HRW are the 'press' and give the US or western govts. less grief?!!  ....

Clearly you were in selective mode if you've ever read their reports in Donbas or the use of cluster bombs..not just in Syria..
..but Georgia...by BOTH the Kremlin ang Georgian forces.... it was confirmed in the EU report..

Your objectivity radar appears to be need recalibrating...




Glad that you object to nations siding with Dictators, you were obviously thinking about the USA siding with Turkey & KSA.

I wasn't aware Erdogan had come to power without a vote..

I was thinking about any nation supporting dictators and ignoring their HR records...



The Nato forces bombing in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and the Balkans, all used, not only cluster bombs, but projectiles manufactured from depleted uranium, and the still do use them,.

Are you saying that Nato can use what it likes, but Russia cannot.

My argument is that anything that takes out these raghead terrorists is OK.

I understand that AI, HRW, OSCE are not the press, and that the wording of my statement did not come over as intended, however, it does not detract from these organisations reports which are mostly western biased, Ukrainian biased, in all reports concerning Russia.

Erdogan was elected, BUT he is probably one of the biggest dictators in the ME, next to KSA, they are both well supported by western countries and Nato, to mention a few, just take a look at their human rights records if you dare.

Btw, pray tell what banned weapon the Northern Irish Hun used against the British Forces..
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Steveboy on February 03, 2016, 01:35:40 PM
Apparently if Russia invaded the Baltic states they would slaughter Nato..

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russia-started-war-baltics-nato-123950130.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on February 03, 2016, 04:17:41 PM



Still deflecting from the Russians bombing civilians and using these horrible weapons..






The Nato forces bombing in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and the Balkans, all used, not only cluster bombs, but projectiles manufactured from depleted uranium, and the still do use them,.

Pls check what happened in 2008..who signed a treaty NEVER to use such weapons..

Russia did not..using them in Georgia...  for which they and the Georgians were criticised... They are notoriously inaccurate.

The USA is another notable absentee signatory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions)

Are you saying that Nato can use what it likes, but Russia cannot.

My argument is that anything that takes out these raghead terrorists is OK.

Except  your ' terrorists' are seeking self determination and freedom from a dictator and this is more about Russian interests..by helping said Dictator.


I understand that AI, HRW, OSCE are not the press, and that the wording of my statement did not come over as intended, however, it does not detract from these organisations reports which are mostly western biased, Ukrainian biased, in all reports concerning Russia.

Examples?.. This is your opinion and I am ready to make a whole thread on this and perhaps this 'bias' bollox can be put to bed.



Erdogan was elected, BUT he is probably one of the biggest dictators in the ME, next to KSA, they are both well supported by western countries and Nato, to mention a few, just take a look at their human rights records if you dare.

I missed when I ever stated I was a fan of Erdiogan ... and he uses methods that ensure TR cannot join the EU.

 We are duscussing why we get threads ...correctly dissing the US..but the response is deflect and not agree the Kremlin are simply protecting Assad..using hotrible, inaccurate weapons.



Btw, pray tell what banned weapon the Northern Irish Hun used against the British Forces..



I suspect you are STILL trying to deflect,  but if you could be a little more clear as to who the 'NI hun'  are / were and the weapons you are teferring to...
.

.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: WestCoast on February 03, 2016, 04:30:59 PM
Apparently if Russia invaded the Baltic states they would slaughter Nato..

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russia-started-war-baltics-nato-123950130.html

Being that the Baltic states are next door to Moscow and even closer to St. Pete I'd think that would be obvious. The point is could Russia hold the Baltic states and where might the US/NATO strike Russia other than the Baltic states-Russia area?

With all the American assets in the Japan, Korea, Philippines etc I'm sure the US could easily take Vladivostok and eastern Russia. What about southern Russia near the Ukraine-Russia border?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on February 08, 2016, 09:25:53 AM
Why on Earth Would Russia Attack the Baltics?

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/why-earth-would-russia-attack-baltics/ri12707
Title: Re: when will Manny put the thread back as I named it ?
Post by: msmoby on February 08, 2016, 11:20:03 PM
Why on Earth Would Russia Attack the Baltics?

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/why-earth-would-russia-attack-baltics/ri12707

Ask Mannys recent dinner guest...it's a tried and tested 'stunt' - issue passports to former USSR citizens in former satellite states then ' protect' them from 'oppression'  by 'absorbing' the territory..   
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on March 31, 2016, 10:05:29 AM
Despite Western Paranoia, Russia Unlikely to Attack the Baltic States

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/despite-western-paranoia_b_9561974.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on March 31, 2016, 10:21:50 AM
Here's a thought for those who have yet to start thinking (FEELZ don't count!)

Russia is the largest country in the world, by far. The population of that largest country is around 140,000,000. The country is probably the richest in terms of natural resources, both developed and undeveloped.

If Russia were to try to invade the world what benefit would accrue to the country and its people? Go on, try it, frame an objective answer!

How would Russia support an invasion of the world with such a tiny population? Go on try it, frame an objective answer!

What do you think would happen in the underpopulated Asian east while the European west was busy invading the world? Go on, try it, frame an objective answer!

The reality is that there's no reason, good, or otherwise, for Russia to go invading anywhere. They didn't in Donbas, notwithstanding all the claims and fantasies of the past year or so. They didn't in Crimea, notwithstanding the ongoing lies about that situation.
Russia does not have either the need or the resources to take such actions. But there's lots of reasons to persuade those who prefer FEELZ to thinking that the opposite is true - careers and fortunes are based upon the premise.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Steveboy on March 31, 2016, 11:41:11 AM
Here's a thought for those who have yet to start thinking (FEELZ don't count!)

Russia is the largest country in the world, by far. The population of that largest country is around 140,000,000. The country is probably the richest in terms of natural resources, both developed and undeveloped.

If Russia were to try to invade the world what benefit would accrue to the country and its people? Go on, try it, frame an objective answer!

How would Russia support an invasion of the world with such a tiny population? Go on try it, frame an objective answer!

What do you think would happen in the underpopulated Asian east while the European west was busy invading the world? Go on, try it, frame an objective answer!

The reality is that there's no reason, good, or otherwise, for Russia to go invading anywhere. They didn't in Donbas, notwithstanding all the claims and fantasies of the past year or so. They didn't in Crimea, notwithstanding the ongoing lies about that situation.
Russia does not have either the need or the resources to take such actions. But there's lots of reasons to persuade those who prefer FEELZ to thinking that the opposite is true - careers and fortunes are based upon the premise.

Ok its been a couple of hours since you wrote this and Moby hasn't come up with another story :laugh:

Is Moby still alive or has the KGB taken him off and shot him in the neck ? Im starting to worry  :laugh:


Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on March 31, 2016, 11:44:10 AM
He has maybe found somebody to buy him a beer. Don't worry, he will be right along.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on March 31, 2016, 11:47:11 AM
He has maybe found somebody to buy him a beer. Don't worry, he will be right along.

Only when he can find a "Free Wi-Fi" on his overland route back to civilisation... :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 25, 2016, 05:35:49 PM
Analysis: Baltic Sea Heating Up as Friction Point Between U.S., NATO and Russia

https://news.usni.org/2016/04/25/analysis-baltic-sea-heating-up-as-friction-point-between-u-s-nato-and-russia
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 30, 2016, 04:09:07 PM
Lavrov: Baltic States show no gratitude for Moscow letting them go in peace

http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/baltic_states_cis/?doc=120178


Germany mulls sending NATO troops to Lithuania – defense official

https://www.rt.com/news/341401-germany-nato-troops-lithuania/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: yankee on April 30, 2016, 06:31:10 PM
Why does the US and NATO want war with Russia.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 01, 2016, 09:52:05 AM
Hopefully a Trump presidency will eliminate the wasteful spending of the United states military in these fictional hot spots.

NATO Allies Preparing to Put Four Battalions at Eastern Border With Russia

http://www.wsj.com/articles/nato-allies-preparing-to-put-four-battalions-at-eastern-border-with-russia-1461943315
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on May 01, 2016, 10:21:28 AM
Why does the US and NATO want war with Russia.

I don't believe that the US wants a war with Russia, but they are trying (quiet successfully) to frighten other associated NATO countries to up their investment in US defence industry manufactured products.
Without such markets, the US defence industry would tank, and with it the economy and the currency..
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: yankee on May 01, 2016, 10:55:02 AM
Why does the US and NATO want war with Russia.

I don't believe that the US wants a war with Russia, but they are trying (quiet successfully) to frighten other associated NATO countries to up their investment in US defence industry manufactured products.
Without such markets, the US defence industry would tank, and with it the economy and the currency..

They seem to be pushing Russia in that direction.  The problem with this approach is that you do not know you have pushed too much until you fine yourself in a war you did not want.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on May 01, 2016, 11:10:47 AM
Why does the US and NATO want war with Russia.

I don't believe that the US wants a war with Russia, but they are trying (quiet successfully) to frighten other associated NATO countries to up their investment in US defence industry manufactured products.
Without such markets, the US defence industry would tank, and with it the economy and the currency..

They seem to be pushing Russia in that direction.  The problem with this approach is that you do not know you have pushed too much until you fine yourself in a war you did not want.

Quiet agree, but there are inherent problems with a war against Russia, including the re-supply of Europe if a war did break out, and the US also knows that NATO is incapable of stopping, and only slowing down a major Russian conventional offensive.

Another problem that the US could possibly face, would be a war on 2 fronts, because, I do not believe for one instant, that China will just sit back and watch the fireworks.

Really, I see is as pure posturing, just like a couple of kids saying, "My dad's bigger than your dad" one kid states, , No he "aint" states the other, and so forth..
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 01, 2016, 11:11:17 AM
Why does the US and NATO want war with Russia.

I don't believe that the US wants a war with Russia, but they are trying (quiet successfully) to frighten other associated NATO countries to up their investment in US defence industry manufactured products.
Without such markets, the US defence industry would tank, and with it the economy and the currency..
We need to remember that the United States, even its government, is not a single force, with a single goal, interests or strategies. I am absolutely certain that Gipsy is correct, in so far as it represents the goal, interests and strategy of a single power group within the US power structure. Also, I am sure that people within this group and others find common cause with others in respect of parts of each others goals.

So, at the same time, I am certain that there are also interests who seek a rapprochement with Russia and also those who seek to enter into war for a myriad of reasons that are waaaaay too detailed to cover in a forum post.

It is a mistake to not understand the varying power and influence groups, some of which we know of and recognize and others that are invisible to us, except in so far as we see the manifestations of their plans and desires - usually attributed to some more public face of the 'real' power.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 05, 2016, 08:41:32 PM
Russia vows response to NATO plan in Poland and Baltics

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/russia-hit-nato-east-europe-expansion-plan-160504175351330.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: yankee on May 05, 2016, 09:32:25 PM
Russia vows response to NATO plan in Poland and Baltics

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/russia-hit-nato-east-europe-expansion-plan-160504175351330.html

Does the West really want a war with Russia?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on May 05, 2016, 09:55:05 PM
Russia vows response to NATO plan in Poland and Baltics

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/russia-hit-nato-east-europe-expansion-plan-160504175351330.html

Does the West really want a war with Russia?

Lets do some math (I know a challenge for some on RUA), it seems NATO wants to use two primarily American brigades in the Baltics and Poland on a 4 to 8 week rolling basis. That is about 4,000 to 4,500 soldiers. The article though notes American battalions which are substantially smaller.

Elsewhere I read brigades rolling in and out of Central Europe, of 4,500 per American brigade. So max say 9,000 NATO/US soldiers. Russia according to the article is planning 5 new divisions of 10,000 men each. The Russian reports are both hysterical and silly, but let Putin squander his funds.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on May 06, 2016, 12:01:05 AM
Russia vows response to NATO plan in Poland and Baltics

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/russia-hit-nato-east-europe-expansion-plan-160504175351330.html

Does the West really want a war with Russia?

The Neocon wet dream is to depose Putin (see Qaddafi and Hussein for details), break up Russia into bite sized EU aspirant chunks controlled by Washington lap dogs (see Ukraine for details), pillage its oil, gas, gold, and get the US bombs and troops sat on the border with China ready for the next step. Putin & Co were somewhat sharper than Hank, Bud and Chuck and saw this coming years ago. Ukraine and Syria demonstrates how any attempts at that might play out. So an angry Uncle Sam is now in a stalemate. What to do? Sabre rattle and fill up the neighbouring countries with bombs and troops and manufacture some "aggression" to counter (See RUA passim for details).
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 10, 2016, 06:40:21 PM
Just a friendly reminder, that links and articles may not be my personal views.
Wonder which government agency sponsored this documentary?



Which Country Will Vladimir Putin Go After Next?

http://m.motherjones.com/media/2016/05/putin-russia-baltic-states-master-plan
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 10, 2016, 11:56:29 PM
Avhdb, maths not needed matey.

What you probably don't know,  judging from your post above, is that the Russian Federation is in the process of reorganisation of its entire military structure. Moving from the formerly used echelon structure,  a relic of Soviet times still visible and confusing USAians in Poland and Ukraine, toward a functional,  regional structure. This means that former 'empty divisions' are being re-manned. I have discussed this on this very forum in the past. These new divisions are new to you because you don't know much. They are new to most USAians because they don't know very much,  but they are not new to the Russian Military who have been working on them for some time. What the Russian Federation has done is reminded NATO that their planning should not be based upon their former understanding of the outmoded echelon structure. The Russians have simply moved manpower to where materiel was already being stored. Remember that during Soviet times the western Russian border was a rear echelon position. The front echelons were in Galicia in Ukraine and East Germany.

Cost is therefore not the issue. The program was already underway. The Russian government has merely signposted it for those who,  like you,  were unaware.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on May 12, 2016, 11:28:47 AM
Avhdb, maths not needed matey.

What you probably don't know,  judging from your post above, is that the Russian Federation is in the process of reorganisation of its entire military structure. Moving from the formerly used echelon structure,  a relic of Soviet times still visible and confusing USAians in Poland and Ukraine, toward a functional,  regional structure. This means that former 'empty divisions' are being re-manned. I have discussed this on this very forum in the past. These new divisions are new to you because you don't know much. They are new to most USAians because they don't know very much,  but they are not new to the Russian Military who have been working on them for some time. What the Russian Federation has done is reminded NATO that their planning should not be based upon their former understanding of the outmoded echelon structure. The Russians have simply moved manpower to where materiel was already being stored. Remember that during Soviet times the western Russian border was a rear echelon position. The front echelons were in Galicia in Ukraine and East Germany.

Cost is therefore not the issue. The program was already underway. The Russian government has merely signposted it for those who,  like you,  were unaware.

Ah Andrew, there is a difference between us ~ I can read a wider assortment of material than your colouring by number material. The foundation can be found in a magazine called Jane's. For the good order this is not a girlie magazine.
Title: Re: another confrontation-The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 12, 2016, 12:22:48 PM
RAF fighter jets scrambled to intercept military jet in 'act of Russian aggression'

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/669765/Russian-military-planes-Baltic-states-Britain-fighter-jets
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 12, 2016, 01:20:09 PM
And the RAF planes will have had transponders off as is SOP - just as the Russian planes usually do.

I wonder if anyone looked at a map before writing the word 'toward' - probably yes, but decided the misleading and dishonest word choice was the way to go.

It is impossible for operational reasons for US/UK or RF warplanes to always fly with their transponders on, so they don't but it is simply dishonest for US/NATO to claim 'hurt' or 'provocation' when their own planes fly without transponders as well.

So, AvHdB, tell us what your 'magazine' informs you about echelons in the Russian Federation and a move to area based defence? Which issue did you read about it in? If you take an inference that I don't believe you then your gut feeling is informing you correctly. You already demonstrated your lack of knowledge, inventing reading afterward only compounds your error. IF your knowledge was as you claim then you'd not dream of looking a right twat by trying to suggest that the Russian Army is magicking up new troops from out of nowhere.

Jane's is a reputable publication, they sometimes get things wrong but they rarely invent stuff as you suggest they did. Why do you play such silly games AvHdB? Why?



Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: yankee on May 12, 2016, 01:28:23 PM
And the RAF planes will have had transponders off as is SOP - just as the Russian planes usually do.

I wonder if anyone looked at a map before writing the word 'toward' - probably yes, but decided the misleading and dishonest word choice was the way to go.

It is impossible for operational reasons for US/UK or RF warplanes to always fly with their transponders on, so they don't but it is simply dishonest for US/NATO to claim 'hurt' or 'provocation' when their own planes fly without transponders as well.

The only fighter (on our side) shot down during the 1st Gulf war was shot down because its transponder was off.  A plane will be grounded if its transponder in not functioning.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 12, 2016, 01:31:59 PM
Texan, a defective transponder may lead to an aircraft being grounded but there is no requirement for military planes to fly with them turned on and sound operational reasons for them to not be always turned on. NATO (which means US) planes routinely fly without transponders. It depends upon the mission and task.

You can check up on this it isn't a secret. ;)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on May 12, 2016, 07:12:08 PM
Jane's is a reputable publication, they sometimes get things wrong but they rarely invent stuff as you suggest they did. Why do you play such silly games AvHdB? Why?

Yes Andrew I am confident that there is no publication that is 100% correct, but you have a consistent knack for denying the reality that even if you were bitten you would deny and spin it. You may not like the reality but really life is easier if you do not deny it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Steveboy on May 16, 2016, 10:15:21 AM
I wonder if they really do wear these ?  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 17, 2016, 05:29:44 AM
Jane's is a reputable publication, they sometimes get things wrong but they rarely invent stuff as you suggest they did. Why do you play such silly games AvHdB? Why?

Yes Andrew I am confident that there is no publication that is 100% correct, but you have a consistent knack for denying the reality that even if you were bitten you would deny and spin it. You may not like the reality but really life is easier if you do not deny it.

AvHdB, what do you think I am denying?

Remember, we got here because you did not know about how echelons work or that Russia had been organising its military away from echelons and toward a regional organisation.

Now, please let me know, in order that I might improve myself, how does your lack of knowledge reflect in my 'denial' of some kind of truth, a truth as yet unexplained by you?

I am interested to know how it might be that the lack of a reason for Russia to invade Estonia is a reflection, again, of my denial of some kind of unexplained reality.

But yeah, why not tell us exactly what Russia would get from an invasion of Estonia. Please exclude from your answer any reference to a scenario occurring AFTER a general declaration of war upon the Russian Federation.

You see AvHdB, that's the problem with propaganda swallowers, there's simply no objective reason for Russia to invade Estonia EXCEPT in response to a declaration of war upon the RF. I am as always a willing learner and am happy to hear the news that, I am sure, the Joint Chiefs Of Staff of NATO would also be happy to learn. Here's a chance to make a name for yourself as an original thinker in terms of military strategy and to show the world something that nobody else knows.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on May 18, 2016, 12:31:52 AM
Jane's is a reputable publication, they sometimes get things wrong but they rarely invent stuff as you suggest they did. Why do you play such silly games AvHdB? Why?

Yes Andrew I am confident that there is no publication that is 100% correct, but you have a consistent knack for denying the reality that even if you were bitten you would deny and spin it. You may not like the reality but really life is easier if you do not deny it.

AvHdB, what do you think I am denying?

Remember, we got here because you did not know about how echelons work or that Russia had been organising its military away from echelons and toward a regional organisation.

Now, please let me know, in order that I might improve myself, how does your lack of knowledge reflect in my 'denial' of some kind of truth, a truth as yet unexplained by you?

I am interested to know how it might be that the lack of a reason for Russia to invade Estonia is a reflection, again, of my denial of some kind of unexplained reality.

But yeah, why not tell us exactly what Russia would get from an invasion of Estonia. Please exclude from your answer any reference to a scenario occurring AFTER a general declaration of war upon the Russian Federation.

You see AvHdB, that's the problem with propaganda swallowers, there's simply no objective reason for Russia to invade Estonia EXCEPT in response to a declaration of war upon the RF. I am as always a willing learner and am happy to hear the news that, I am sure, the Joint Chiefs Of Staff of NATO would also be happy to learn. Here's a chance to make a name for yourself as an original thinker in terms of military strategy and to show the world something that nobody else knows.

Andrew you really are a bit like the puppy dog that keeps picking up the thrown stick, you will not leave it alone. If you think you live in a world of denial that is fine and dandy. And no I do not have to prove anything most of all to you so please try to get a life, beyond RUA.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: bagalia on May 18, 2016, 01:08:01 AM
Jane's is a reputable publication, they sometimes get things wrong but they rarely invent stuff as you suggest they did. Why do you play such silly games AvHdB? Why?

Yes Andrew I am confident that there is no publication that is 100% correct, but you have a consistent knack for denying the reality that even if you were bitten you would deny and spin it. You may not like the reality but really life is easier if you do not deny it.

AvHdB, what do you think I am denying?

Remember, we got here because you did not know about how echelons work or that Russia had been organising its military away from echelons and toward a regional organisation.

Now, please let me know, in order that I might improve myself, how does your lack of knowledge reflect in my 'denial' of some kind of truth, a truth as yet unexplained by you?

I am interested to know how it might be that the lack of a reason for Russia to invade Estonia is a reflection, again, of my denial of some kind of unexplained reality.

But yeah, why not tell us exactly what Russia would get from an invasion of Estonia. Please exclude from your answer any reference to a scenario occurring AFTER a general declaration of war upon the Russian Federation.

You see AvHdB, that's the problem with propaganda swallowers, there's simply no objective reason for Russia to invade Estonia EXCEPT in response to a declaration of war upon the RF. I am as always a willing learner and am happy to hear the news that, I am sure, the Joint Chiefs Of Staff of NATO would also be happy to learn. Here's a chance to make a name for yourself as an original thinker in terms of military strategy and to show the world something that nobody else knows.

Andrew you really are a bit like the puppy dog that keeps picking up the thrown stick, you will not leave it alone. If you think you live in a world of denial that is fine and dandy. And no I do not have to prove anything most of all to you so please try to get a life, beyond RUA.

Satisfaction.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 19, 2016, 05:52:54 PM
RAF Typhoons confront FIVE Russian war planes threatening Estonian airspace in latest show of aggression

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-typhoons-confront-five-russian-7992033
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on May 20, 2016, 01:59:49 AM
RAF Typhoons confront FIVE Russian war planes threatening Estonian airspace in latest show of aggression

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-typhoons-confront-five-russian-7992033

Ah right, now that the russians are using their legitimate right to use international airspace, its suddenly not understandable and 'russian agression'

gotya.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on May 20, 2016, 02:55:28 AM
Markje,

don't you 'get' it ?

Whilst such headlines overlook the facts you point out - the current leadership in Russia has encouraged and been complicit in insurrection in neighbouring territories.

Russian TV speaks in the same tone when NATO ships exercise in the Black Sea ....
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 20, 2016, 04:06:10 AM
So, the takeaway from your words AvHdB is that, again, I was right. You, yet again, had no factual basis for your outburst.

An opinion without facts to support it is worthless, ranting your objections by ascribing your shortcomings to me is a waste of your time. You may be 'distracted' from time to time by the fermented juice of the grape but you ain't that dim that you can't create an argument from facts that you learn.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on May 20, 2016, 06:51:12 AM
Russian TV speaks in the same tone when NATO ships exercise in the Black Sea ....
So either they are both right, or they are both wrong, which is it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on May 20, 2016, 10:32:52 AM
the current leadership in Russia has encouraged and been complicit in insurrection in neighbouring territories.

Can you list all these places?  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 25, 2016, 02:03:03 PM


Majority of Germans Oppose Sending Their Troops to the Baltics


http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/majority-germans-decline-aggressive-anti-russian-politics/ri14572
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: SOUTHERN X on May 26, 2016, 09:47:37 PM

 :)  another article which apears to support the baltics asking for a NATO presence
 tiphat


Estonian Prime Minister Taavi Roivas has called for one NATO battalion to be permanently stationed in each Baltic nation in an interview with the German newspaper Die Welt has, published Thursday.
 
The measure would help Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to protect themselves from Russia's expansionism, he said.
 
Rovias said that the troops could rotate, but that NATO needed to be a continuous presence. “There must not be any gaps. Deterrence has to be the new normalcy,” he told Die Welt.
  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/estonia-calls-for-permanent-nato-battalions-as-protection-from-russia/570349.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 27, 2016, 01:38:46 AM
No reason to doubt the story.

Of course it is meaningless for two reasons:
1) There's no reason why, except in the case of an attack upon the RF, that Russia would have any reason to invade Estonia.
2) There's no way that NATO has the capacity to defend Estonia against attack.

However, such a deployment would guarantee shedloads of extra money into the Estonian government's coffers and I'd find my chosen leisure facilities rather more full with overweight, middle aged European men with short haircuts - and the prostitutes will all set their prices to reflect the Per Diems of career officers.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on May 27, 2016, 01:44:23 AM
No reason to doubt the story.

Of course it is meaningless for two reasons:
1) There's no reason why, except in the case of an attack upon the RF, that Russia would have any reason to invade Estonia.
2) There's no way that NATO has the capacity to defend Estonia against attack.

However, such a deployment would guarantee shedloads of extra money into the Estonian government's coffers and I'd find my chosen leisure facilities rather more full with overweight, middle aged European men with short haircuts - and the prostitutes will all set their prices to reflect the Per Diems of career officers.

And that is the exact reason why Poland wishes to have a large NATO military presence, and missiles stationed in the land.

 :money: :money: :money:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 27, 2016, 03:20:20 AM
Yes, I am sure that it is not unique to Estonia, but there is a clear track record of creating crisis to stimulate external 'assistance'. One is reminded of the great HIV epidemic (that never happened) or the road building in eastern Estonia to support the US tanks and stop them sinking into the mud. Please, we need you to station more overweight, useless tanks here so we can get you to pay for more rural roads.

Coz that's the thing, these countries will not pay the costs of their 'protection' and, if they were called upon to do so, would, I am certain, discover that the protection was no longer needed.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 27, 2016, 01:57:45 PM
Wonder how long before bomb shelters will become a must have necessity? :chuckle:


Baltic States Need Patriot Missile Defense Systems – Estonian Army General

http://m.sputniknews.com/military/20160527/1040323847/baltic-states-patriot-missile-defense.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on May 27, 2016, 02:46:32 PM
Wonder how long before bomb shelters will become a must have necessity? :chuckle:


Baltic States Need Patriot Missile Defense Systems – Estonian Army General

http://m.sputniknews.com/military/20160527/1040323847/baltic-states-patriot-missile-defense.html

Now that's just taking the piss. What a silly man.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 31, 2016, 02:58:15 PM
German Foreign Minister Encourages Baltic States to Cool It

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/german-foreign-minister-encourages-baltic-states-cool-it/ri14696
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on June 17, 2016, 03:58:01 PM
Many of the articles published by the west use the words RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, but it seems NATO has been aggressively poking a stick at the Bear. It's obvious to what group has taken on the role as the aggressor, and it ain't Russia.

British troops to lead new Nato defence of Baltic States from Russian 'aggression

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/680134/British-troops-to-lead-new-Nato-defence-of-Baltic-States-from-Russian-aggression
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on June 21, 2016, 08:31:45 PM


This tiny stretch of countryside is all that separates Baltic states from Russian envelopment

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/20/this-tiny-stretch-of-countryside-is-all-that-separates-baltic-states-from-russian-envelopment/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on June 22, 2016, 03:14:52 AM
So, the takeaway from your words AvHdB is that, again, I was right. You, yet again, had no factual basis for your outburst.

An opinion without facts to support it is worthless, ranting your objections by ascribing your shortcomings to me is a waste of your time. You may be 'distracted' from time to time by the fermented juice of the grape but you ain't that dim that you can't create an argument from facts that you learn.

No Andrew, you are an untrained puppy dog.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on June 22, 2016, 03:30:51 AM
So, the takeaway from your words AvHdB is that, again, I was right. You, yet again, had no factual basis for your outburst.

An opinion without facts to support it is worthless, ranting your objections by ascribing your shortcomings to me is a waste of your time. You may be 'distracted' from time to time by the fermented juice of the grape but you ain't that dim that you can't create an argument from facts that you learn.

No Andrew, you are an untrained puppy dog.
So how does it feel, to be outsmarted by an untrained puppy dog?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on June 22, 2016, 05:04:54 AM
So, the takeaway from your words AvHdB is that, again, I was right. You, yet again, had no factual basis for your outburst.

An opinion without facts to support it is worthless, ranting your objections by ascribing your shortcomings to me is a waste of your time. You may be 'distracted' from time to time by the fermented juice of the grape but you ain't that dim that you can't create an argument from facts that you learn.

No Andrew, you are an untrained puppy dog.
So how does it feel, to be outsmarted by an untrained puppy dog?

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on June 22, 2016, 09:56:10 PM
So, the takeaway from your words AvHdB is that, again, I was right. You, yet again, had no factual basis for your outburst.

An opinion without facts to support it is worthless, ranting your objections by ascribing your shortcomings to me is a waste of your time. You may be 'distracted' from time to time by the fermented juice of the grape but you ain't that dim that you can't create an argument from facts that you learn.

No Andrew, you are an untrained puppy dog.
So how does it feel, to be outsmarted by an untrained puppy dog?

I am not the one shittin and brain fartin all around.

Curious though when is some going to take Fifi to training?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on June 23, 2016, 01:23:08 AM
So, the takeaway from your words AvHdB is that, again, I was right. You, yet again, had no factual basis for your outburst.

An opinion without facts to support it is worthless, ranting your objections by ascribing your shortcomings to me is a waste of your time. You may be 'distracted' from time to time by the fermented juice of the grape but you ain't that dim that you can't create an argument from facts that you learn.

No Andrew, you are an untrained puppy dog.
So how does it feel, to be outsmarted by an untrained puppy dog?

I am not the one shittin and brain fartin all around.

Curious though when is some going to take Fifi to training?
You are from where I'm sitting. Andrew is making valid points, and if you counter them and then call names, fine. But you don't counter his points, all you do is insulting someone. Therefore to me Andrew has won this argument from you and you are just a mean man that can't stop insulting people, even after you've lost the argument.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on June 23, 2016, 02:01:38 AM
Markje, whilst I take your point and agree with it I'd say that I do not see discourse as a matter of winning and losing. I see it as sharing information, knowledge and a process of learning. For that reason it is unfortunate when there is nothing but attempts at insult and offence. As I choose to not take offence such a gambit is a waste of time for the writer.

If AvHdB chose to employ knowledge, fact and the occasional personal jab well, things would be much better. It seems to me that it is the closed mind that can only find objectionable words or that thinks they might be effective. We know, I think, that he isn't dumb so lack of knowledge is a choice.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on July 25, 2016, 12:16:23 PM
President Trump May Force Baltic Leaders to Act Like Adults

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/president-trump-may-force-baltic-leaders-act-adults/ri15816
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 02, 2016, 06:12:21 PM
Russia ready for consultations with Baltic states on border activities

https://rbth.com/news/2016/08/01/russia-ready-for-consultations-with-baltic-states-on-border-activities_617101
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 25, 2016, 07:43:06 PM
In the real world, there's nothing NATO could do to protect the Baltic states if Russia was to take them. Trump sees the waste of taxpayers money, and sees a different path to secure better relationship with Russia.
Biden looks to be the fool giving false sense of security from a non existent threat.

Biden: U.S. Committed to Protecting Baltic States From Russia

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/biden-us-committed-protecting-baltic-states-russia-n636631
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 15, 2016, 07:17:53 PM
If you talk about Russia,as if they are an enemy, then expect them to take their business elsewhere.


Russia to Stop Exporting Oil Through Foreign Baltic Ports

http://russia-insider.com/en/russia-stop-exporting-oil-through-foreign-baltic-ports/ri16465
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on September 15, 2016, 07:31:55 PM
If you talk about Russia,as if they are an enemy, then expect them to take their business elsewhere.

Russia to Stop Exporting Oil Through Foreign Baltic Ports

http://russia-insider.com/en/russia-stop-exporting-oil-through-foreign-baltic-ports/ri16465

A reality with two sides, Russia has too much production and if the West of Europe has a 'cold' winter, well it will be cold there.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on September 15, 2016, 11:48:45 PM
What on earth do you mean by 'too much production'? If one can sell everything one makes, of anything, at a profit greater than the hurdle rate then one can not produce too much of any good. If one can reduce production and make the same, or more profit from an increased price then that is even better -

Been inventing stuff again?

A for the use of ports in the Baltic states: the move away from using the Baltics as transit for oil has been in progress for years. The Russians have been building port capacity for oil transshipment from Saint Petersburg for a long time. There had been a policy choice though to support the Baltics to some degree, that was always going to come to an end at some point. In truth the change could probably be made almost immediately, subject to constraints imposed by contractual arrangements. The Russian port authorities are probably being a tad conservative and there's no shortage of shipping.

Rail shipments of oil across Estonia have fallen considerably and are unlikely to be replaced. It isn't that the oil is not being sold, far from it, Russian oil output is at record levels and so are sales, but that the supply routes are being reconfigured and the rail change has come about due to considerations imposed by the reaction to Ukrainian silliness.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on September 16, 2016, 02:17:08 AM
What on earth do you mean by 'too much production'? If one can sell everything one makes, of anything, at a profit greater than the hurdle rate then one can not produce too much of any good. If one can reduce production and make the same, or more profit from an increased price then that is even better -

Been inventing stuff again?

A for the use of ports in the Baltic states: the move away from using the Baltics as transit for oil has been in progress for years. The Russians have been building port capacity for oil transshipment from Saint Petersburg for a long time. There had been a policy choice though to support the Baltics to some degree, that was always going to come to an end at some point. In truth the change could probably be made almost immediately, subject to constraints imposed by contractual arrangements. The Russian port authorities are probably being a tad conservative and there's no shortage of shipping.

Rail shipments of oil across Estonia have fallen considerably and are unlikely to be replaced. It isn't that the oil is not being sold, far from it, Russian oil output is at record levels and so are sales, but that the supply routes are being reconfigured and the rail change has come about due to considerations imposed by the reaction to Ukrainian silliness.

You need to learn to read Andrew. This is oil that is transiting through ships. That at present world wide there is too much oil available is I think a well understood reality. While Europe has reduced its consumption of Russian fuel a 'cold' winter, will indeed be cold for Western Europe.

From the article: "Russia will stop exporting its oil through foreign ports sitting on the Baltic Sea by 2018, according to a new report by Reuters.

Nikolai Tokarev, head of the Russian pipeline monopoly Transneft, told President Vladimir Putin about the plan during a meeting on Monday.

"Last year, around 9 million tonnes were shipped through the Baltic ports, while this year the figure was 5 million tonne,” Tokarev told Putin, according to the meeting’s official transcript on the Kremlin’s website. "By 2018, we will reduce this flow to the Baltic ports to zero and will direct it to our ports instead, as we have surplus capacity.
“Good,” Putin replied."

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on September 16, 2016, 03:03:32 AM

"Last year, around 9 million tonnes were shipped through the Baltic ports, while this year the figure was 5 million tonne,” Tokarev told Putin, according to the meeting’s official transcript on the Kremlin’s website. "By 2018, we will reduce this flow to the Baltic ports to zero and will direct it to our ports instead, as we have surplus capacity.
“Good,” Putin replied."[/i]
You should read again and quote the whole article. They have a surplus shipping capacity in St. Pete, and want to use that instead of the Baltics, they are also expanding St. Pete's capacity even more, so that the Baltics-route will be completely closed.

Mark.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on September 16, 2016, 11:13:07 AM
Avhdb, why do you do it?
Russia is selling all the oil they pump.

What you are getting confused about is this: you think there is a magical production figure beyond which nobody will buy oil. Well,  that's not how it is. There is a price below which a producer will not produce. See the difference?

Here's how real businesses work: an energy firm has a choice about how they spend their money. They can spend money to produce oil or not. If they make a profit from selling their oil then they have a duty to their shareholders to maximise profitable output. If the return from other investments is higher then they invest in that option.

If there is no profit at a given price then,  usually, they will stop. Russian production costs are about the lowest in the world. Saudi production is generally cheaper.

Some producers,  for example,  in the United States, for cost reasons have reduced production. It is cheaper, more profitable to do something else.

Pretty much all the oil being produced is being sold.

If there's stuff you don't understand,  just ask,  no need to make yourself look a twat.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 17, 2016, 05:15:31 PM
The non invasion of the Baltic states seems an appropriate name for this thread, as Russian business will be somewhat non existent .

Baltic states pay the price for Russophobian policy

http://www.pravdareport.com/business/finance/15-09-2016/135633-baltic-0/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 29, 2016, 09:06:56 AM


'Russia WILL invade Lithuania' Leaders tell people to prepare for guerrilla war on streets

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/726544/Vladimir-Putin-Russia-Lithuania-war-citizens-briefed-strikes
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Contrarian on October 29, 2016, 09:18:24 AM


'Russia WILL invade Lithuania' Leaders tell people to prepare for guerrilla war on streets

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/726544/Vladimir-Putin-Russia-Lithuania-war-citizens-briefed-strikes

sounds like unsubstantiated paranoia.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on October 29, 2016, 09:28:28 AM


'Russia WILL invade Lithuania' Leaders tell people to prepare for guerrilla war on streets

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/726544/Vladimir-Putin-Russia-Lithuania-war-citizens-briefed-strikes

sounds like unsubstantiated paranoia.

That's because it is...... :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on October 29, 2016, 10:03:24 AM


'Russia WILL invade Lithuania' Leaders tell people to prepare for guerrilla war on streets

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/726544/Vladimir-Putin-Russia-Lithuania-war-citizens-briefed-strikes

From that silliness:

Quote
The government-issued guide explains that Lithuanians should carry condoms, energy bars and wet wipes with them at all times in case they find themselves hiding in a forest.

Coz when the Russians have invaded, your first thought is safe sex in a forest.  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on December 14, 2016, 10:12:45 AM
Hopefully Trump's administration brings an end to this foolishness.

U.S.: Deployments To Poland, Romania, Baltic States Accelerated

https://www.stratfor.com/situation-report/us-deployments-poland-romania-baltic-states-accelerated
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on December 14, 2016, 01:25:29 PM
Quote from: daft article

The government-issued guide explains that Lithuanians should carry condoms, energy bars and wet wipes with them at all times in case they find themselves hiding in a forest.

Coz when the Russians have invaded, your first thought is safe sex in a forest.  :ROFL:

Historically, the victors have indulged in domination sexual acts - though whether they'd be persuaded to wear a jonny is another thing.. 

*snip*

Lithuania gave ethnic Russians full national passports and have not been as  'negative' - the percentage being nearly 4 times less

I know several Russian speaking Lithuanians and they are far less tied to the Rodina than those in Latvia and Estonia..



The moderation team kindly removed irrelevant and off topic comment from this post for me.



Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Danchik on December 15, 2016, 05:03:05 AM
Quote from: daft article

The government-issued guide explains that Lithuanians should carry condoms, energy bars and wet wipes with them at all times in case they find themselves hiding in a forest.

Coz when the Russians have invaded, your first thought is safe sex in a forest.  :ROFL:

Historically, the victors have indulged in domination sexual acts - though whether they'd be persuaded to wear a jonny is another thing.. 

*snip*

Lithuania gave ethnic Russians full national passports and have not been as  'negative' - the percentage being nearly 4 times less

I know several Russian speaking Lithuanians and they are far less tied to the Rodina than those in Latvia and Estonia..



The moderation team kindly removed irrelevant and off topic comment from this post for me.
This seems to be your way of legitimizing your opinion for just about every situation. And you seem to know someone whom (I guess) is an authority on the subject (e.g. I know a person whom, I know a chef (:), I know a Muslim, I know a journalist, etc.)

Really, you should stop adding these little "snips' because they, in all honesty, mean nothing, and do NOT legitimize a thing.

And I always get a kick out of people who say they know "several", when in reality, it's maybe 1 or 2.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: rosco on December 15, 2016, 06:47:32 AM
Like I've said before, Moby's only here to argue and fall out with people. He's disagreeable with the general population on absolutely every subject.

It's quite obvious what the problem is.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on December 15, 2016, 07:17:36 AM


And I always get a kick out of people who say they know "several", when in reality, it's maybe 1 or 2.


'Yes',..it never bothers me when folks THINK they know better about my life / who I know . For example - I know five Lithuanians [who consider themselves ethnically Russian] - in Manchester UK - alone.. I lived with a Latvian Russia in CY - helping her - and several relatives - to travel freely in Europe. The figure for Baltic State folks I have met and still keep in contact with is certainly more than 1 or 2  and closer to 20 ...


The moderation team kindly removed irrelevant and off topic comment from this post for me.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 15, 2016, 07:22:48 AM
Like I've said before, Moby's only here to argue and fall out with people. He's disagreeable with the general population on absolutely every subject.

It's quite obvious what the problem is.

Moby "No Mates"   :laugh:






Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 15, 2016, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: daft article

The government-issued guide explains that Lithuanians should carry condoms, energy bars and wet wipes with them at all times in case they find themselves hiding in a forest.

Coz when the Russians have invaded, your first thought is safe sex in a forest.  :ROFL:

Historically, the victors have indulged in domination sexual acts - though whether they'd be persuaded to wear a jonny is another thing.. 

*snip*

Lithuania gave ethnic Russians full national passports and have not been as  'negative' - the percentage being nearly 4 times less

I know several Russian speaking Lithuanians and they are far less tied to the Rodina than those in Latvia and Estonia..



The moderation team kindly removed irrelevant and off topic comment from this post for me.
This seems to be your way of legitimizing your opinion for just about every situation. And you seem to know someone whom (I guess) is an authority on the subject (e.g. I know a person whom, I know a chef (:), I know a Muslim, I know a journalist, etc.)

Really, you should stop adding these little "snips' because they, in all honesty, mean nothing, and do NOT legitimize a thing.

And I always get a kick out of people who say they know "several", when in reality, it's maybe 1 or 2.

 tiphat
Title: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on December 15, 2016, 08:21:28 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world, I do know one Lithuanian, hates Russians, and when the current Mrs Ste was living in Germany she got a lot of grief. Also when we meet Poles and they find out she's Russian (she has no accent) the mood changes..

Interestingly, my 22 year old colleague in Denmark gives me serious grief cos Britain sank the Danish fleet in 16 something, everyone's got internationalist chips on their shoulders as we see here
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on December 15, 2016, 08:40:12 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Contrarian on December 15, 2016, 09:30:41 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.

TBF there are things about Americans which seriously annoy me: like those who drive to slow on the freeway in the left lane (it's supposed to be a passing lane), those who are slow drivers around town and don't signal where the heck they are going, and especially those who won't properly cue in a line: if you're intending to order get the feck up to the front where the person is who is going to take your order: don't stand back so far that I can't tell if you've already ordered or are intending to order. The fake "feelz" that poster B/B has posted about. The people in a grocery check out line who try to chat too much w/ the clerk/ STFU and move on so that others can pay and get on with the day.

But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes. 

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on December 15, 2016, 09:36:07 AM


Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like

'Right thinking people' like Georgians  Ukrainians - those of the Baltic States Chechens who never agreed to be part of the RF - who were indiscriminately flattened ...?

Russians were sent to such places as a punishment - for liking western music - such as jazz...  My first 'Russian' partner's son was on a bus in Riga [ 2004]. got up for an old lady and she called  him a Russian Pig - under her breath in Latvian - according to him .... I was shocked ... She was only a Latvian non citien - because her Dad was sent there as a punishment in the late 60's

Manny was shocked that the Russian Prosecutor General's Office would spend time investigating the legality of the Baltic States ceding the then USSR in '89 ..WHY feel the need to do such things - unless you might suggest the nations 'never left' and are therefore part of Russia ..?

Most of the indigenous peoples regard the USSR as having occupied and regard Moscow as a threat .... Moscow pushes for the rights of folks who were born in the Baltic States and want their kids to be taught in Russian...Right thinking people - to me - understand the mistrust on both sides and do not seek to suggest t'other side is 'wrong'



You need to visit some more of these places and see the perspectives from both sides ...



Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 15, 2016, 09:46:57 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.


But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on December 15, 2016, 09:53:26 AM

But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

:))  only a 'russiophobe' would dare post such a thing !   Many Russian drivers are incredibly discourteous and aggressive - lacking in lane discipline and sit on your  arse... hence the insurance premiums are higher :(
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on December 15, 2016, 10:08:36 AM
Reread what I said, I was referring to the perception of Russians on the world stage, right or wrong, it's not good.

And neither is the USA either, especially now they've elected a total div as President...
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on December 15, 2016, 10:18:46 AM


Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:

Perhaps our Gypo doesn't use Public transport ... IF he did he would realise that forming a line ' queuing' is a joke ... Most Babuskas don't get a look in in a crush - but I see plenty of kind folk give up seats for the elderly, too..

As for drivers - if Gypo wants us to believe he knows about life in Russia  - being in denial about driving stds is not going to help his case

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on December 15, 2016, 10:27:37 AM
I can ask some Dutch people what they think of German's the response will not be pleasant.

Without doubt many American's have a rather dim view of Russians.

The Russians lack a clear view of American's.

Mexicans view those from Costa Rica with great suspicion.

In Korea who ever is from Japan is frequently seen with hatred.

I can go on.

Yet each of the above nations have close ties, it would be better if RUA tried to bridge these gulfs.

Sure Andrew can poke me about fluids and I will poke back about his crayons, but it would be nice we try too rise above this.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Contrarian on December 15, 2016, 10:49:38 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.


But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:

I already know that "grandmother" is babushka in Russian.  No, it is not propaganda, I have been there, gotten off an airplane and tried to cue through passport control.  Russian and Ukrainians are a$$holes when it comes to waiting in line, they don't know how to do it or refuse to do it. It is very much a dog eat dog society. Same thing happens even when waiting in line to pay for food at a cafe, some a$$hole will try to come along and pass you even though you are next in line to pay. In the USA it is the opposite problem. Everyone is often too polite and lines move to slowly.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Ste on December 15, 2016, 10:56:44 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.


But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:

I already know that "grandmother" is babushka in Russian.  No, it is not propaganda, I have been there, gotten off an airplane and tried to cue through passport control.  Russian and Ukrainians are a$$holes when it comes to waiting in line, they don't know how to do it or refuse to do it. It is very much a dog eat dog society. Same thing happens even when waiting in line to pay for food at a cafe, some a$$hole will try to come along and pass you even though you are next in line to pay. In the USA it is the opposite problem. Everyone is often too polite and lines move to slowly.


People don't queue in Denmark like we do in UK, it's like a pile on but at the actual end be it bus or train door people let you go first politely....
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on December 15, 2016, 11:08:33 AM
Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like

'Right thinking people' like Georgians  Ukrainians - those of the Baltic States Chechens who never agreed to be part of the RF - who were indiscriminately flattened ...?

Amazingly, the capitals of all three Baltic states or Kiev were never "flattened".  (:)

I haven't been to Chechnya, but I am sure you will regale us with made up tales from "all the people you know there".  :chuckle:

Russians were sent to such places as a punishment -

Including Peter the Great? Look up Kadriorg Palace.  :coffeeread:

Manny was shocked that the Russian Prosecutor General's Office would spend time investigating the legality of the Baltic States ceding the then USSR in '89 ..WHY feel the need to do such things - unless you might suggest the nations 'never left' and are therefore part of Russia ..?

Manny was "shocked" at nothing. Please refrain from fantasising about me. The incident you refer to is one much loved by propagandists like you, and is much covered here already.  :Zzzzsleep:

Most of the indigenous peoples regard the USSR as having occupied and regard Moscow as a threat ....

Being liberated from the Nazis surely has that effect.  :-\

Moscow pushes for the rights of folks who were born in the Baltic States and want their kids to be taught in Russian...

Not quite. Moscow pushes for the rights of those who identify as Russian who live in the Baltics who are otherwise marginalised and often oppressed by the local culture and the US influenced government. Language is a case in point, Estonia insists anything official is done in Estonian, against the wishes of the 30% of self-identifying Russians who live there. Sure there is a case for learning Estonian, as there is a case to learn one's mother or home tongue at school in their unique circumstances. I thought you would get this as you are so sympathetic to Muzzies in the UK and their "rights".

Right thinking people - to me - understand the mistrust on both sides and do not seek to suggest t'other side is 'wrong'

No, you are a Russophobic propagandist who is a habitual liar, who twists things, makes stuff up and trolls incessantly.

You need to visit some more of these places and see the perspectives from both sides ...

Indeed, visit Tallinn, educate yourself on Kadriorg Palace and Russian culture there. Understand about the moving of the statue that caused unrest. Marvel at the Old Town that pre-dates the USSR and remarkably is not "flattened".
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 15, 2016, 11:09:59 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.


But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:

I already know that "grandmother" is babushka in Russian.  No, it is not propaganda, I have been there, gotten off an airplane and tried to cue through passport control.  Russian and Ukrainians are a$$holes when it comes to waiting in line, they don't know how to do it or refuse to do it. It is very much a dog eat dog society. Same thing happens even when waiting in line to pay for food at a cafe, some a$$hole will try to come along and pass you even though you are next in line to pay. In the USA it is the opposite problem. Everyone is often too polite and lines move to slowly.

Obviously you are a vertically challenged person, my post flew right over your head.... ;D
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on December 15, 2016, 11:30:07 AM

Amazingly, the capitals of all three Baltic states or Kiev were never "flattened".  (:)


In fact the Kiev city suffered heavily during the 2nd World War, it has already been discussed and documented.


Perhaps, if we tried talking to each other instead of shouting the loudest you might understand the other posters viewpoint.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Contrarian on December 15, 2016, 11:32:42 AM
TBF though Russians are amongst the most disrespected nationalities in the world,

What more than Yanks? I doubt it. I put it to you that only fuzzy-thinking leftists, those who believe the made up tosh in the MSM and the odd transplanted FSU satellite occupant (that always seem to be angry) think so.

Right-thinking people tend to see a country that has to react (and tends to do so calmly) to constant provocation and the hidden agendas of other aggressive nations like the US.


But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:

I already know that "grandmother" is babushka in Russian.  No, it is not propaganda, I have been there, gotten off an airplane and tried to cue through passport control.  Russian and Ukrainians are a$$holes when it comes to waiting in line, they don't know how to do it or refuse to do it. It is very much a dog eat dog society. Same thing happens even when waiting in line to pay for food at a cafe, some a$$hole will try to come along and pass you even though you are next in line to pay. In the USA it is the opposite problem. Everyone is often too polite and lines move to slowly.

Obviously you are a vertically challenged person, my post flew right over your head.... ;D

Oh, okay. you got me.   :king:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on December 15, 2016, 11:46:54 AM
Russians have had their share of experience with waiting in line. Can't blame them for a bit of eagerness to avoid a wait.


Post-Soviet Russia’s 5 longest lines

http://rbth.com/politics_and_society/2016/01/27/post-soviet-russias-5-longest-lines_562771
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on December 15, 2016, 12:18:59 PM

Amazingly, the capitals of all three Baltic states or Kiev were never "flattened".  (:)


In fact the Kiev city suffered heavily during the 2nd World War,

Not in the context of Russia "occupying" or "flattening" it as our propagandist asserted.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 15, 2016, 03:48:43 PM


Babushka = Grandmother..

That is exactly what the MSM wish you to think..

Its all propaganda, films made up expertly by US/EU specialist film crews, actors and stunt persons..

Quite differently from reality really..

 :laugh:

Perhaps our Gypo doesn't use Public transport ... IF he did he would realise that forming a line ' queuing' is a joke ... Most Babuskas don't get a look in in a crush - but I see plenty of kind folk give up seats for the elderly, too..

As for drivers - if Gypo wants us to believe he knows about life in Russia  - being in denial about driving stds is not going to help his case

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on December 16, 2016, 01:25:24 PM

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:

??  Gypo - you claim to 'know' me - so how come you are so 'accurate' about my height - which is - according to my recent medical - 2cm less than the average height of tallest men in the world - NL ...  :chuckle:

Further evidence that our Gypo notes what he wants to read / see  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Danchik on December 17, 2016, 03:41:54 AM


And I always get a kick out of people who say they know "several", when in reality, it's maybe 1 or 2.


'Yes',..it never bothers me when folks THINK they know better about my life / who I know . For example - I know five Lithuanians [who consider themselves ethnically Russian] - in Manchester UK - alone.. I lived with a Latvian Russia in CY - helping her - and several relatives - to travel freely in Europe. The figure for Baltic State folks I have met and still keep in contact with is certainly more than 1 or 2  and closer to 20 ...


The moderation team kindly removed irrelevant and off topic comment from this post for me.
Yes, you're my hero.

The point is that it doesn't matter if you know 20 or 50; it doesn't make your point valid. The idiom "birds of a feather" comes quickly to mind and, who knows what your relationship with these people really is.

I have, in a few instances, backed up some of your claims despite the pile on from most of your detractors. IOW, I have no beef with you personally, think about your feelings nor care about your "real" life one way or the other, just your horsesh*t style of arguing.

Now let's look at this because you had an issue with what I said on the other board under an alias (Yes):


But in all fairness it is the opposite in Russia: waiting in line? everybody and their grandmother, especially the babushka's will try to go around you, no matter that your're clearly in line.  Same goes for attempting to drive anywhere, just look at videos of russian drivers being maniacs and causing crashes.

:))  only a 'russiophobe' would dare post such a thing !   Many Russian drivers are incredibly discourteous and aggressive - lacking in lane discipline and sit on your  arse... hence the insurance premiums are higher :(
Have you ever driven in America, or maybe you know serveral Americans, therefore you are an expert :)? You know, places like LA, Boston, Houston, Miami, Atlanta, etc..

IMO LA is easily as bad as Moscow, where getting shot at is a concern and maybe where road rage was born. Boston is brutal, and Houston is no picnic either (3 places where I have a lot of experience driving).

Russian insurance is higher than in the States, but not by much depending on the state. A couple of other points; 1) If Americans put dash cams on their cars at the rate Russians do, you would see just as many, if not more "shocking" situations. 2) Russian premiums were established higher, as were most things at the beginning of their pricing system, as no consumer had reference to what the norm was at that tme. People paid at times outrageous prices (as they did for most products compared to the West) because of the excitement of being able to drive and have normal products, and yes, insurance companies and other businesses, took advantage of this lack of knowledge.

Another thing to keep in mind is that unilike the States where mandatory insurance (liability) is the biggest brunt of one's premium, it's the lowest for a Russian insurance policy (this you should know if you have indeed help SC in this way). As little as $100 a year, while the remaining coverage can be quite expensive. And we all know the majority of Russians own their cars free and clear.

P.S. Confederate, yes old habits die hard, but things are changing with regards to cutting in line. Much less than before, and drivers even stop at crosswalks for pedestrians now. While I'm sure you have driven in America (not sure where you're from), don't tell me that there are no crazy fcuks driving around the roads there, I know better.

As far as being polite, yes, Russians need to improve, but again, things are getting better in this area too. Just not in the metro in winter. :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on December 17, 2016, 10:09:02 AM

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:

??  Gypo - you claim to 'know' me - so how come you are so 'accurate' about my height - which is - according to my recent medical - 2cm less than the average height of tallest men in the world - NL ...  :chuckle:

Further evidence that our Gypo notes what he wants to read / see  :coffeeread:
Ahhh, I'm from Netherlands. Thats why you always seem short to me  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 17, 2016, 10:30:12 AM

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:

??  Gypo - you claim to 'know' me - so how come you are so 'accurate' about my height - which is - according to my recent medical - 2cm less than the average height of tallest men in the world - NL ...  :chuckle:

Further evidence that our Gypo notes what he wants to read / see  :coffeeread:
Ahhh, I'm from Netherlands. Thats why you always seem short to me  :chuckle:

Moby's self defensive comments regarding his 5ft 10inch tall, vertically challenged mind-set is noted. :coffeeread:
The "sarcasm" in my post really did fly over his head. ;D
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 17, 2016, 10:35:18 AM

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:

??  Gypo - you claim to 'know' me - so how come you are so 'accurate' about my height - which is - according to my recent medical - 2cm less than the average height of tallest men in the world - NL ...  :chuckle:

Further evidence that our Gypo notes what he wants to read / see  :coffeeread:
Ahhh, I'm from Netherlands. Thats why you always seem short to me  :chuckle:

Short on brains.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Contrarian on December 17, 2016, 12:20:16 PM

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:

??  Gypo - you claim to 'know' me - so how come you are so 'accurate' about my height - which is - according to my recent medical - 2cm less than the average height of tallest men in the world - NL ...  :chuckle:

Further evidence that our Gypo notes what he wants to read / see  :coffeeread:
Ahhh, I'm from Netherlands. Thats why you always seem short to me  :chuckle:

Moby's self defensive comments regarding his 5ft 10inch tall, vertically challenged mind-set is noted. :coffeeread:
The "sarcasm" in my post really did fly over his head. ;D

I'm pretty sure you were talking about the "height" of ones IQ and not physical height, yes?  :)
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Gipsy on December 17, 2016, 04:22:52 PM

It is noted that you are also vertically challenged..  :coffeeread:

??  Gypo - you claim to 'know' me - so how come you are so 'accurate' about my height - which is - according to my recent medical - 2cm less than the average height of tallest men in the world - NL ...  :chuckle:

Further evidence that our Gypo notes what he wants to read / see  :coffeeread:
Ahhh, I'm from Netherlands. Thats why you always seem short to me  :chuckle:

Moby's self defensive comments regarding his 5ft 10inch tall, vertically challenged mind-set is noted. :coffeeread:
The "sarcasm" in my post really did fly over his head. ;D

I'm pretty sure you were talking about the "height" of ones IQ and not physical height, yes?  :)

Something along those lines... ;D
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on January 10, 2017, 10:07:18 PM
The UN classifies Estonia as a Northern European country

http://estonianworld.com/life/un-reclassifies-estonia-northern-european-country/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: el_guero on January 11, 2017, 02:01:06 AM
The UN classifies Estonia as a Northern European country

http://estonianworld.com/life/un-reclassifies-estonia-northern-european-country/

Who un-classified them?
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on January 24, 2017, 07:42:53 AM
Who would believe that a wall could stop a military confrontation?
Not that it's actually a real threat.

Russia Masterfully Trolls Lithuania: You Want to Build a Wall? We'll Pay for It!

Okay, well not exactly pay for it. But he'll provide all the building materials, says one brilliant Russian governor

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russia-masterfully-trolls-lithuania-you-build-wall-well-pay-it/ri18661
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on January 24, 2017, 09:22:28 AM
The UN classifies Estonia as a Northern European country

http://estonianworld.com/life/un-reclassifies-estonia-northern-european-country/

They have been pretending to be part of Scandinavia since the 90s - something I have noted in the past.

Estonia is mostly pretending to be part of Scandinavia recently.

Estonia has spent the last 15 years pretending Russia doesn't exist and recently mostly pretending to be part of Scandinavia.

Estonia is now EU. The more affluent of the three Baltic states. Lately, they are pretending to be part of Scandinavia. What they did to achieve this was to treble the price of everything but keep Russian service levels, while still expecting a tip.  :chuckle:

Now they have got the UN to recognise this - after a 20 year campaign - they will be howling it from the rooftops to anyone that will listen. They have long been itching to shed the negative connotations associated with Eastern Europe.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on March 03, 2017, 09:25:32 PM
NATO’s scaremongering about ‘Russia threat’ to Baltic States ‘is all about money’

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/379190-nato-baltic-states-russia/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 06, 2017, 05:02:47 PM


Russian forces capable of short-notice strike in Baltics, assessment says

https://www.stripes.com/news/russian-forces-capable-of-short-notice-strike-in-baltics-assessment-says-1.462036#.WObFiqNOnJt
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Markje on April 07, 2017, 01:10:55 AM


Russian forces capable of short-notice strike in Baltics, assessment says

https://www.stripes.com/news/russian-forces-capable-of-short-notice-strike-in-baltics-assessment-says-1.462036#.WObFiqNOnJt
From the open-door department. Russia has always been capable of that ,close to their border. Just like any country, with normal military.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 08, 2017, 08:35:04 PM
Kinda wondering what's the point of this article? Russia is moving a sub from point A to point B, by doing so Putin is flexing his muscle?

Russia to send the world's largest submarine to the Baltic

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4387084/Russia-send-world-s-largest-submarine-Baltic.html
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on April 09, 2017, 12:37:16 AM
Kinda wondering what's the point of this article? Russia is moving a sub from point A to point B, by doing so Putin is flexing his muscle?

Russia to send the world's largest submarine to the Baltic

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4387084/Russia-send-world-s-largest-submarine-Baltic.html

That is one BIG sub, the bow wave looks at slow speed to be more than a meter. But in reality it is only 3 or so meters longer than an Ohio class, sub. But the beam is some 10 meters more, this is due to design features.

My first thought was why send the sub to a shallow body of water, the article indicates for no other reason than the show the Russian abilities. The Russians have real estate along the Baltic so why not. The Kremlin might consider the Baltic a NATO swimming pool but the international agreements dating back two centuries remain, allowing freedom of passage. These subs have been in the last century also in the Baltic.

In the Western military there are those in the who are yawning and others preparing to gather vast amounts of intel. And than there are McCain rants to come. But I suspect the west has a few of those special fishing and scientific vessels as well. Note, NATO it seems has not changed its stance as being a protective agreement between member countries where as Russia can boast of its attack (aggressive) capabilities.

Somewhere I think I read that the vessel has amidship torpedo capabalities but do not see that in the images. What is visible is damage to the tiles directly above the visible bow torpedo ports, especially on the starboard side. For what it is worth I am almost positive the interior foto is from an earlier period.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 17, 2017, 05:10:29 PM
FACT: Eastern Europeans so 'Worried' About Russia That They Spend Next to Nothing on Defense

http://russia-insider.com/en/if-eastern-europeans-are-so-worried-about-russia-how-come-they-are-spending-next-nothing-defense
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on April 21, 2017, 01:24:34 AM
FACT: Eastern Europeans so 'Worried' About Russia That They Spend Next to Nothing on Defense

http://russia-insider.com/en/if-eastern-europeans-are-so-worried-about-russia-how-come-they-are-spending-next-nothing-defense

The traditional idea of defence in the Baltics is to cry to the EU and Uncle Sam about being "scared" and receive shed loads of free money. They are well aware there is no actual threat.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 25, 2017, 07:53:53 PM


Honey traps’ at bars & other Russian threats to Baltic states (according to them)

https://www.rt.com/news/385687-russian-threats-baltic-states/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Manny on April 26, 2017, 02:08:05 AM
From the article:

Quote
Riga Mayor Nils Ushakovs, a former journalist and ethnic Russian who was fined by Latvia’s language watchdog for posting comments on his personal Facebook page in Russian – his native language.

That's *really* embracing the spirit of the EU. You can speak Urdu with no fines, but not Russian.
Title: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: 2tallbill on April 26, 2017, 10:36:08 AM
The UN classifies Estonia as a Northern European country

http://estonianworld.com/life/un-reclassifies-estonia-northern-european-country/

They are part of Northern Europe
Tallinn latitude is 59.4370° N
Stockholm is 59.3293° N
That's was North back when I went to school.   :nod:
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on April 26, 2017, 03:27:55 PM
The UN classifies Estonia as a Northern European country

http://estonianworld.com/life/un-reclassifies-estonia-northern-european-country/

They are part of Northern Europe
Tallinn latitude is 59.4370° N
Stockholm is 59.3293° N
That's was North back when I went to school.   :nod:

I like latitude and longitude. For some it is confusing

Latitude is how far north and south something is. Longitude is how far east to west something is.

So the higher the number in latitude the more north. The equator divides the Earth into North and Southern hemisphere

London, UK is 51°

Sydney, Australia is 33°

New York City is 40° just about the same as Madrid.

Helsinki is 60°

The last two numbers are so-called minutes and seconds which one needs for (marine) navigation. The basic system goes back to ancient Greece.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Contrarian on April 26, 2017, 04:11:13 PM
The UN classifies Estonia as a Northern European country

http://estonianworld.com/life/un-reclassifies-estonia-northern-european-country/

They are part of Northern Europe
Tallinn latitude is 59.4370° N
Stockholm is 59.3293° N
That's was North back when I went to school.   :nod:

I like latitude and longitude. For some it is confusing

Latitude is how far north and south something is. Longitude is how far east to west something is.

So the higher the number in latitude the more north. The equator divides the Earth into North and Southern hemisphere

London, UK is 51°

Sydney, Australia is 33°

New York City is 40° just about the same as Madrid.

Helsinki is 60°

The last two numbers are so-called minutes and seconds which one needs for (marine) navigation. The basic system goes back to ancient Greece.

The ancient Greeks were amazing! No computers or "smart phones" just actual smart people!
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 28, 2017, 07:22:48 PM


Estonia says Russia may put troops in Belarus to challenge NATO

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN17T1DQ
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on April 29, 2017, 06:15:34 AM
From the article:

Quote
Riga Mayor Nils Ushakovs, a former journalist and ethnic Russian who was fined by Latvia’s language watchdog for posting comments on his personal Facebook page in Russian – his native language.

That's *really* embracing the spirit of the EU. You can speak Urdu with no fines, but not Russian.

He was recently fined again, l would definitely take offense to having to customize your name to Latvian standard.

An EU Mayor Fined for Speaking Russian

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/eu-mayor-fined-speaking-russian/ri19705
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 08, 2017, 07:59:07 PM
Would Russia Attack & Invade the Baltics? Could US F-35s and Special Ops Forces Stop a Russian Invasion?

http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/story/1645886-analysis-f-35-sof-vs-russian-baltic-invasion
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 26, 2017, 07:02:50 PM
Estonia expels 2 Russian diplomats, Moscow vows to retaliate

https://www.rt.com/news/389830-estonia-expels-2-russian-diplomats/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on May 27, 2017, 07:33:42 AM
Baltic states push US on Patriot missile defense deployment

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/baltic-states-push-us-on-patriot-missile-defense-deployment
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: el_guero on June 05, 2017, 03:17:49 PM
Baltic states push US on Patriot missile defense deployment

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/baltic-states-push-us-on-patriot-missile-defense-deployment

They DON'T need patriots. Patriots defend Germany.

They need hundreds of A-10's and Apaches. With a couple hundred F-16's with a few F-15's and F-22's. A thousand tanks and a thousand IFV's. AND a LOT of counter battery fire support.

The price might add up to more, but THAT would stop Russian aggression in the Baltic.

IMHO, YMMV
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on June 06, 2017, 02:38:56 AM
What imaginary aggression are you referring to?

I don't recall Narva being overrun and there are no Russian missile craft on Lake Peipsi.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on June 06, 2017, 07:20:18 PM
Russian Baltic fighter intercepts US B-52 bomber

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40172842
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: el_guero on June 06, 2017, 11:24:37 PM
What imaginary aggression are you referring to?

I don't recall Narva being overrun and there are no Russian missile craft on Lake Peipsi.

If there is a hypothetical war coming from Russia, which defends the Baltic better: Missiles that protect Germany from a nuke war, or military force on the ground that can stop an invasion.

The missiles will stop a hypothetical nuclear exchange. A real one would be a nightmare no matter how good the defenses.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on August 27, 2017, 06:36:47 PM
Canada-led NATO battle group goes through first major exercise to test battle-readiness

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/propaganda-and-provocation-russia-scoffs-at-canada-s-baltic-war-games-1.4263213
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on August 28, 2017, 03:01:08 AM
El Guero, falling victim to mass hypnosis does not make the hypnosis more real. There is no rational reason for Russia to invade Estonia, absent acts from outside Russia which make such action necessary.

Placing weapons designed to attack Russia close to Russian borders is the type of act that could result in Russia needing to neutralise those forces. At that point a war will have started but it would not have been Russia that started it.

Here's an easier way to think about it. One that even a hypnotised person can probably grasp because it does not relate directly to the issue about which you are hypnotised: if you want to use a car to drive on vacation. Given that you have the money to do so, does it make more sense to rent the car or to steal it? If you rent the car then everybody is happy. You go on vacation with no consequences. If you steal the car then everyone is against you. When caught with the car your vacation will end, you might - go to prison, your friends and family might turn against you.

The cost of taking the car car is higher than paying for it. Stealing makes no sense.

That's the situation with the mass hypnosis about Russia. It is cheaper and easier for Russia to pay for what it needs than to take it.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on August 28, 2017, 06:08:35 AM
El Guero, falling victim to mass hypnosis does not make the hypnosis more real. There is no rational reason for Russia to invade Estonia, absent acts from outside Russia which make such action necessary.

Placing weapons designed to attack Russia close to Russian borders is the type of act that could result in Russia needing to neutralise those forces. At that point a war will have started but it would not have been Russia that started it.

Here's an easier way to think about it. One that even a hypnotised person can probably grasp because it does not relate directly to the issue about which you are hypnotised: if you want to use a car to drive on vacation. Given that you have the money to do so, does it make more sense to rent the car or to steal it? If you rent the car then everybody is happy. You go on vacation with no consequences. If you steal the car then everyone is against you. When caught with the car your vacation will end, you might - go to prison, your friends and family might turn against you.

The cost of taking the car car is higher than paying for it. Stealing makes no sense.

That's the situation with the mass hypnosis about Russia. It is cheaper and easier for Russia to pay for what it needs than to take it.

Remembering that this thread was a branch of another thread and renamed by management ..

FACT:

1/ The Soviet Union agreed to the independence of the Baltic States

2/ The Prosecutor General felt that looking into the 'legality' of their ceding' from the Soviet Union

3/ Throughout history there have been periods when Moscow controlled the Baltic States

4/ Agreements to 'protect' states / respect the sovereignty of said former Soviet states have been broken

5/ The USA had pulled out tanks from Europe -  none in 2013

6/ The anti-missile missiles - contrary to hype are NOT the sort of missile than can be converted to be first strike

Now while I wish Estonia and Latvia - in particular - had automatically given eth Russians - mostly planted to dilute nationalist tendencies - full national passports and EU citizenship ( like Lithuania ) only someone who is selectively blind could suggest NATO wishes to 'attack' Russia.  The recent history has been the Kremlin seeking to destabilise regimes under the pretext of protecting RU citizens - having made citizens of other nations ' Russian' .

My biz partner in Cyprus was a former officer in the Red Army and will never be convinced otherwise .... )) 

Now that he has FINALLY - got CY nationality - he will be better able to judge
 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 23, 2017, 12:02:00 PM
Over the past month the media predicted Russia was going to use the war games to overtake Belarus, then the Baltic states.
This was total rubbish so I never posted any links.
Now that the military training is completed, there has been no retraction, or any articles correcting to lies that were passed off as news reports. If Russia had followed thru with every invasion they have been accused of planning, Russia would be even larger than the former Soviet union.

Russia begins troop withdrawal from Belarus after end of Zapad 2017 drills – MoD

https://www.rt.com/news/404001-russia-withdrawal-zapad-drills/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on September 29, 2017, 09:14:05 PM
Over the past month the media predicted Russia was going to use the war games to overtake Belarus, then the Baltic states.
This was total rubbish so I never posted any links.
Now that the military training is completed, there has been no retraction, or any articles correcting to lies that were passed off as news reports. If Russia had followed thru with every invasion they have been accused of planning, Russia would be even larger than the former Soviet union.

Russia begins troop withdrawal from Belarus after end of Zapad 2017 drills – MoD

https://www.rt.com/news/404001-russia-withdrawal-zapad-drills/



A few weeks back the media was giving numbers of up to 100,000 Russian soldiers participating, now it was a few thousand.
Belarus officials said the last Russian troops have left. Ukraine says thousands remain.
So most likely the Russian invasion of the Baltic states will once again be floated across the western media.

Russia left troops in Belarus after wargames: Ukraine

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-army/russia-left-troops-in-belarus-after-wargames-ukraine-idUSKCN1C4234
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on September 30, 2017, 02:15:46 AM
It is in all of what physical space you want to talk about. The larger number reported was in all across Russia from China to Europe.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 01, 2017, 12:26:42 PM
The Russian military must be much larger than previously thought.
Troops in Syria, Ukraine Belarus. There's supposedly large military presence near the north Korean border. Russia is said to have a buildup in the Artic. We have countless submarine sightings some equipped with the ability to cut communication cables.
It's amazing how Russia is capable of threatening such a vast area, and spend so little compared to the United states.


VLAD’S INVASION PLAN?

Fears Russia is plotting to invade Baltic states after Putin leaves thousands of troops behind in Belarus after war games, despite promising Nato he wouldn’t

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4581107/fears-russia-plotting-invasion-baltic-nato/
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on October 01, 2017, 12:46:51 PM
The Russian military must be much larger than previously thought.
Troops in Syria, Ukraine Belarus. There's supposedly large military presence near the north Korean border. Russia is said to have a buildup in the Artic. We have countless submarine sightings some equipped with the ability to cut communication cables.
It's amazing how Russia is capable of threatening such a vast area, and spend so little compared to the United states.


VLAD’S INVASION PLAN?

Fears Russia is plotting to invade Baltic states after Putin leaves thousands of troops behind in Belarus after war games, despite promising Nato he wouldn’t

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4581107/fears-russia-plotting-invasion-baltic-nato/

In 2010 the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) estimated that the Russian Armed Forces numbered about 1,027,000 active troops and in the region of 2,035,000 reserves (largely ex-conscripts).

Lets see her now. That would be about 6000 in Syria, a few hundred in Ukraine,  maybe a few thousand in Belarus and he has a total of 3 million plus troops. I do not know anything about Russian troop movement as Putin has not seen it fit to inform me. But it would be very possible that he did use 100,000 troops all across Russia and Belarus from the standpoint he does have enough troops to do this.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 01, 2017, 01:00:26 PM
Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on October 01, 2017, 01:59:59 PM
Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

The article said 60 to 100,000 in western Russia and Belarus not just in Belarus. Notice you are always using the largest possible number that the article said was possible.  What I read but I do not have the article was they use troops all across Russia to practice fast deployment of troops. Remember there was a time Russia had 70,000 troops on the border with the Ukraine and most of the time Russia keeps ten of thousand troops near the NATO boarder as defense. So in games that was likely an increase. Putin has the number of troops to do it if he wants to. Russia has a very large land mass and they want to be able to redeploy troops any where in the country where they are needed. My reading they used this exercise for that practice using far more troops than what they let NATO believe they would be using because Russia only counted the troops in Belarus when it was a much larger over all exercise. Then you find some crazy of the wall article and go crazy over it as if all western media was reporting this. What is really happening is most of the people in the USA has totally missed the story as this is not been very reported and not of much interest to most USAians who for now seem to be focus on North Korea. 
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 01, 2017, 02:36:16 PM
Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

The article said 60 to 100,000 in western Russia and Belarus not just in Belarus. Notice you are always using the largest possible number that the article said was possible.  What I read but I do not have the article was they use troops all across Russia to practice fast deployment of troops. Remember there was a time Russia had 70,000 troops on the border with the Ukraine and most of the time Russia keeps ten of thousand troops near the NATO boarder as defense. So in games that was likely an increase. Putin has the number of troops to do it if he wants to. Russia has a very large land mass and they want to be able to redeploy troops any where in the country where they are needed. My reading they used this exercise for that practice using far more troops than what they let NATO believe they would be using because Russia only counted the troops in Belarus when it was a much larger over all exercise. Then you find some crazy of the wall article and go crazy over it as if all western media was reporting this. What is really happening is most of the people in the USA has totally missed the story as this is not been very reported and not of much interest to most USAians who for now seem to be focus on North Korea. 



Texan, the article posted is typical western propaganda, Russia had maybe around 5000+ troops in Belarus.
Point is western media seldom gives an accurate account of Russia.
There's one common theme that can be found in many of these articles, that being the Ukrainian sources so often quoted.

Some think the Russian media is filled with propaganda and inaccurate news, but it is much closer to the truth than anything from the western media.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Texan77 on October 01, 2017, 04:43:24 PM
Texan, prior to the military training in Belarus, estimations of up to 100,000 Russian troops could take part.
This dose not include Russian troops reportedly in drills in many other locations.

Here's what we know about the reported 100,000 Russian troops going to NATO's borders

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-we-know-about-the-100000-russians-going-to-natos-borders-2017-8

The article said 60 to 100,000 in western Russia and Belarus not just in Belarus. Notice you are always using the largest possible number that the article said was possible.  What I read but I do not have the article was they use troops all across Russia to practice fast deployment of troops. Remember there was a time Russia had 70,000 troops on the border with the Ukraine and most of the time Russia keeps ten of thousand troops near the NATO boarder as defense. So in games that was likely an increase. Putin has the number of troops to do it if he wants to. Russia has a very large land mass and they want to be able to redeploy troops any where in the country where they are needed. My reading they used this exercise for that practice using far more troops than what they let NATO believe they would be using because Russia only counted the troops in Belarus when it was a much larger over all exercise. Then you find some crazy of the wall article and go crazy over it as if all western media was reporting this. What is really happening is most of the people in the USA has totally missed the story as this is not been very reported and not of much interest to most USAians who for now seem to be focus on North Korea. 



Texan, the article posted is typical western propaganda, Russia had maybe around 5000+ troops in Belarus.
Point is western media seldom gives an accurate account of Russia.
There's one common theme that can be found in many of these articles, that being the Ukrainian sources so often quoted.Some think the Russian media is filled with propaganda and inaccurate news, but it is much closer to the truth than anything from the western media.



That was not the article I posted it was the one you posted. No Putin News network is a propaganda network that is after the USA to discredit it. That is its main goal. Even when the fact are right the omissions are so large and obvious. During the Ukraine war I would get the facts from girl on scene then watch it in the news. Thing like the Ukraine wants to kill 2,000,000 Ethnic Russians not even close. RT news reports Ukraine army torchers four year old boy story completely made up. They hired actors and it was fake news.

Russia held a very large excises that went all across Russia and NATO was concern about it. Not really a big deal except with you.

Tom did you count these troops?  How do you know how many there except Putin's news network? Did you even know anybody that was there? What makes you such an expert on whose news is right or wrong?


Here in the USA we have Alex Jones who poses as being pro USA right wing who is really Putin news network underground. He always discredit the USA government and praises Putin. His news and very slanted against the USA.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: andrewfi on October 02, 2017, 06:12:20 AM
It is worth noting that no matter the numbers you are being told you are being lied to. :)

The exercises that were recently held are held on a four year cycle, revolving around the 4 military districts of Russia. The numbers quoted include civilians, police, military, medical participants because they are designed to drill all these important stakeholders for various disaster contingencies - including invasion from external forces.

Zapad in Russian means 'west' and denotes that this year the exercises were held in the western military district.

But yes, you were lied to because you were told that these were preparations for some kind of invasion when the people originating the lies know, absolutely, that this is not the case. You were lied to because the originators of the lies know, absolutely, that the numbers of participants include a majority of civilian and law enforcement personal.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: AvHdB on October 02, 2017, 08:54:53 AM
Russia as well as NATO, the United States and other military powers hold military training exercises on a regular basis. So if news papers want to sell paper they can easily inflate the number by consulting with the janitor or a woman with a glass ball.

How many troops remained behind in Belarus after Zapad, a guess less than 1,000 and more likely around 100. The Russians do have material there and most of those 'troops' are repair and maintenance personnel. NATO has a number of bases in countries such as Romania and the Baltic States sometimes there are active units and sometimes exactly the same, maintenance boys and girls.

How many Russian troops are on the borders of European states, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and Georgia. I would guess some where near 50,000 seems high but is possible. When I was getting Jane's about 10-12 years ago I saw some report that the number was 30,0000 in total. It certainly has not gone down. One thing that surprised me was how few relative to the length of the border was the actual physical number of Russian's along the Ukraine border.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: rosco on October 25, 2017, 01:42:00 PM
More guff about to be aired tonight on BBC. BBC2 at 9pm - Army: Behind the front lines.

Programme description - The new Cold War. The army is sent to Estonia, on the frontline of a new Cold War. Can they deter Russian expansion and avoid a costly war?

Needless to say I sent an email to the chief pleb at the British brainwashing corporation to challenge the programme description. It’s clearly leading the reader down a path and hopes Moby/those who can’t be arsed to check/simpletons lap up more propaganda for the greater good.

Just be honest FFS and more people might decide to start paying the tax.....I mean licence fee.
Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: msmoby on October 26, 2017, 02:48:13 AM
Well, *I* watched the BBC programme and it dealt with Estonia's 'fears' following escalations and subsequent well-equipped troops from somewhere ending up in Georgia / Ukraine.

The BBC incorrectly* referred to Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Showed media articles in Russian media - describing the 'acts' of German troops in Estonia - that hadn't arrived, yet

It portrayed the balance that any troops stationed there had to ensure they weren't acting provocatively and showed the protests of eth.Russians who didn't want NATO there.

For sure, it was more from the Estonian perspective of having been occupied by Moscow for 50 plus years.


* A kind correction by a passing moderator who approved this post.



Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: rosco on October 26, 2017, 01:54:24 PM
Well, *I* watched the BBC programme and it dealt with Estonia's 'fears' following escalations and subsequent well-equipped troops from somewhere ending up in Georgia / Ukraine.

The BBC incorrectly* referred to Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Showed media articles in Russian media - describing the 'acts' of German troops in Estonia - that hadn't arrived, yet

It portrayed the balance that any troops stationed there had to ensure they weren't acting provocatively and showed the protests of eth.Russians who didn't want NATO there.

For sure, it was more from the Estonian perspective of having been occupied by Moscow for 50 plus years.


* A kind correction by a passing moderator who approved this post.

So.....I watched it too.

The way our armed forces discussed the situation in Estonia is what I'd expect from an organised armed force, having been briefed and deployed by the stooges. Nothing offensive there. They knew it was about striking the balance between a show of force without provocation.

The presentation and narrative however, was very much about leading the sheep. NATO is the good guy, providing shelter to poor defenceless countries who have been raped and pillaged before by the naughty USSR. Russia and Putin are dangerous expansionists and they could attack us at any time!!

Yawn...... :'(

Ukraine and Georgia got pulled into it yet again, to provide justification and we all know how contentious these examples are. Cutting and pasting clips of Putin and military parades made Russia look like North Korea.....even though the parades are about celebrating beating the nazis. More talk of how much Russia spends on their military (not described as defence) yet no context compared with NATO or US budgets....shock!

I honestly do get it. Countries do what they do to protect their own interests and on occasion, to slow up their competitors. Russia isn't a paragon innocence....I understand that. The BBC however are "impartial" so they should act impartial. I couldn't help thinking that Putin has been doing this to split the forces between the Baltics & Syria. Keeping them busy in the snow chasing shadows helps Russia & Assad.

Discussing Russian propaganda as you have above, was the easy bit but then showing how it works the other way wasn't on the agenda. Thankfully some sensible bloke from the army admitted as much but it wasn't given much air time.

Either way.....Russia came out of this as the bad guy, looking to attack us all once again. Shame on you BBC.

Title: Re: The Non-Invasion of the Baltic States
Post by: Tom Cat on October 28, 2017, 07:36:28 PM
No evidence of Russian troops left behind in Belarus after Zapad 2017 drills – NATO chief

https://www.rt.com/news/407893-zapad-drills-nato-no-troops/