Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Information & Manosphere Discussion Forums
General Discussion => General Chat => Topic started by: Maxx on April 07, 2016, 10:06:21 AM
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https://ca.news.yahoo.com/eu-may-require-visas-americans-canadians-eu-source-104932773.html
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I don't think that will be the case!! Cos in a few years who the f**** will want to visit any country in the EU ??
People will want to avoid the place like the plague :sick0012: other than Moby of course.. :ROFL:
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A few thoughts.
First, the EU is perfectly entitled to set its own visa rules.
That said, Brussels sometimes loses the "big picture" amidst delusions of their own relevance. How so, in this case? Well, of the countries on whose behalf they are "offended" - Poland, Bulgaria and Croatia - none of them require visas of American tourists. So they obviously don't give a shit.
Next, increasing the hassle factor for Americans would simply mean that more of us would take our filthy Yanqui dollars on holiday to Mexico and the Caribbean. Someone may want to fill in the Eurocrats on something called "Math" and figure out what damage will be done to the EU economy as a result. The US could retaliate, but I would hope we would not.
Most importantly, so long as we're discussing travel to Europe, they might be better off having a bit of a think about why they're letting so many Muzzies in, and the correlation between that and things going "KABOOOOOOM!!" and sidewalk cafes being shot up, and filmmakers being murdered, etc.
Oh, and it wouldn't really be easily enforced. To wit, the last time I flew into "Old Europe" other than transiting, was to Geneva. Then I hopped in my buddy's car and we drove across the border into France, where there were no border controls, etc. Now, could I, conceivably, be stopped by a Gendarme at some point? Sure, but again, not likely.
B/B
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The article mentions the US "visa waiver" for Europeans, which is a misnomer. They charge you a hundred or so dollars and make you register before travel online. It is in fact a defacto visa rather than a visa waiver. You pays money to enter there and need permission in advance. For me, that is a visa.
We should reciprocate with something similar. We must pay to enter the US? OK, fine. Make USAians pay the same to enter the EU. Quid pro quo.
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When I wrote that visa waiver was a defacto visa I was shouted down. But the program most certainly acts as a visa regime.
There is every good reason why, for exactly the same reasons, the eu should operate a similar system.
Bear in mind that the UK already has a system of passenger notifications for all inward border crossings.We already do what the US does. We just don't charge for it, yet.
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When I wrote that visa waiver was a defacto visa I was shouted down. But the program most certainly acts as a visa regime.
There is every good reason why, for exactly the same reasons, the eu should operate a similar system.
Bear in mind that the UK already has a system of passenger notifications for all inward border crossings.We already do what the US does. We just don't charge for it, yet.
Would you elaborate on your perception of this? I don't think it's quite the same as the US.
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Before going to the US one has to notify the intent to travel, at which point one is given, or denied permission.
Before going to the UK one has to notify the intent to travel, those unwelcome are refused entry to the UK (or questioned on arrival at the border by prepared personnel).
The purpose is to enable the border agencies to know, in advance, who to allow in, or otherwise. Of course it is not exactly the same in implementation as the US, the purpose is the same. In both cases the motto could be 'forewarned is forearmed'.
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??? ???I don't understand all of this? I thought the EU was an extension of the US so they wouldn't expect a visa to enter their own territory :ROFL:
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Before going to the US one has to notify the intent to travel, at which point one is given, or denied permission.
Before going to the UK one has to notify the intent to travel, those unwelcome are refused entry to the UK (or questioned on arrival at the border by prepared personnel).
The purpose is to enable the border agencies to know, in advance, who to allow in, or otherwise. Of course it is not exactly the same in implementation as the US, the purpose is the same. In both cases the motto could be 'forewarned is forearmed'.
I think you are confusing two issues.
One is ESTA,imposed by the U.S. which is the pre travel clearance for certain nationalitiesp in place of a visa.
The other is API, advanced passenger information, which the airlines have to collect and provide to the U.S. DHS. This is matched against watch lists and non desirables will not be permitted to travel.
The UK also operates API but not a system like ESTA.
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Update: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/86f70f34-ffe8-11e5-ac98-3c15a1aa2e62.html#axzz45ZkhtQqg
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Update: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/86f70f34-ffe8-11e5-ac98-3c15a1aa2e62.html#axzz45ZkhtQqg
Here is a version not behind the paywall: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/86f70f34-ffe8-11e5-ac98-3c15a1aa2e62.html#axzz45aZZylr2
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The article mentions the US "visa waiver" for Europeans, which is a misnomer. They charge you a hundred or so dollars ..
14 usd .. is not anything like 100 or so ... :coffeeread:
https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ (https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/)
and make you register before travel online.
When did you last fly ? One has to do this when flying to most countries...before you can check -in / fly
Ok, so it's an admin charge for an extra layer of security ... but a visa it is not.....
Any way - I thought this article was quite good - at describing how we got in this potential mess.
It's all about the EU insisting all member states are treated the same ...
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/04/barriers-entry?spc=scode&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709 (http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/04/barriers-entry?spc=scode&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709)
Cyprus is a 'problem member' ...which is interesting -seeing they've been in the EU 12 years...
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No, Dogsoldier, you see, there's the bureaucrat in you...
That's like saying read and blue are the same because they are both colours. ;)
The point is that the process used in the UK and the US serves the same basic function, both function as visas - because a visa is a document that gives the holder the ability to enter (or stay) in a country. It is the document that enables control in a paper based system.
What the UK and the US now have is an electronic system to do the same thing; to, in advance of arrival: notify the intent to enter the country (application for visa), enable the border security to deny access in advance, or at the point of entry. It is an electronic permission rather than paper.
Don't think like a paper pusher, look at what a thing does, what it is for. The only significant difference between the US Visa Waiver Program (combined with ESTA) and the UK Advance Notification is that one is not stopped until one hits the national border and that's due to EU law, not UK desire - The UK ran a scheme of 'pre-clearance' in the Czech Republic as a trial. Of course, the US system ALSO stops people at the border and denies entrance.
So, what's the difference between the two, in practice? ONLY that entry to the UK is not, at the moment, denied, until one is at the border. However the enter/deny/investigate choice may well have already been made before the traveler's arrival as it is with the US system.
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The UK ran a scheme of 'pre-clearance' in the Czech Republic as a trial. Of course, the US system ALSO stops people at the border and denies entrance.
So, what's the difference between the two, in practice? ONLY that entry to the UK is not, at the moment, denied, until one is at the border. However the enter/deny/investigate choice may well have already been made before the traveler's arrival as it is with the US system.
..and when you arrived at Dunkerque / Dunkirk - where was the 'border' - Was that not a form of 'pre-clearance' - as one certainly was not in the UK...
Not that voting to live the EU would probably mean the checking really would be back in blighty - thus saving the French a head-ache :coffeeread:
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No, Dogsoldier, you see, there's the bureaucrat in you...
That's like saying read and blue are the same because they are both colours. ;)
The point is that the process used in the UK and the US serves the same basic function, both function as visas - because a visa is a document that gives the holder the ability to enter (or stay) in a country. It is the document that enables control in a paper based system.
What the UK and the US now have is an electronic system to do the same thing; to, in advance of arrival: notify the intent to enter the country (application for visa), enable the border security to deny access in advance, or at the point of entry. It is an electronic permission rather than paper.
Don't think like a paper pusher, look at what a thing does, what it is for. The only significant difference between the US Visa Waiver Program (combined with ESTA) and the UK Advance Notification is that one is not stopped until one hits the national border and that's due to EU law, not UK desire - The UK ran a scheme of 'pre-clearance' in the Czech Republic as a trial. Of course, the US system ALSO stops people at the border and denies entrance.
So, what's the difference between the two, in practice? ONLY that entry to the UK is not, at the moment, denied, until one is at the border. However the enter/deny/investigate choice may well have already been made before the traveler's arrival as it is with the US system.
Well, I won't comment on what I think you are thinking like, but you are absolutely wrong.
API and ESTA are completely different animals.
You are trying to teach me to suck eggs here.
Carry on. tiphat
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Dogsoldier, I know that you and your thick rubber shoes work in this area. However, unless you can honestly say that the UK APN does NOT enable border security to pre-check traveler arrivals then you are kinda missing the point, as I suggested you were.
There's a terminology used in EU legislation: having the effect of
It is often applied to legislation regarding tariffs where countries enable legislation that whilst not being a tariff has the substantially same effect upon imports as a tariff. Well, this is one of those types of case.
Quite legitimately one can stand up and say 'this is not a visa' but the effect, for travelers is the same as if there was a visa. The US Visa Waiver/ESTA program has the effect of a visa program. The UK APN system has similar effect as the US VWP/ESTA system.
What these electronic based systems do is reduce the timescale of the process from days or weeks with visas to, almost, real time. The effect though, no matter how fast it is made, is that the process serves to enable access or not, or to flag for investigation, those who seek to cross borders.
If you don't think so, then go through the effect of a visa upon a traveler and then go through the effect of VWP/ESTA upon a traveler and then do the same for the APN system and tell me how the effect differs.
Dogsoldier, I am certain that you are a great paper pusher and very effective behind your biometric gate thingy, and I'd certainly not try to teach you to suck eggs, it'd be pointless. However, it is certain that you do not necessarily consider the broader picture in everything that you do - if you did you'd likely not be doing what you are doing, where you are doing it.
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Dogsoldier, I know that you and your thick rubber shoes work in this area. However, unless you can honestly say that the UK APN does NOT enable border security to pre-check traveler arrivals then you are kinda missing the point, as I suggested you were.
There's a terminology used in EU legislation: having the effect of
It is often applied to legislation regarding tariffs where countries enable legislation that whilst not being a tariff has the substantially same effect upon imports as a tariff. Well, this is one of those types of case.
Quite legitimately one can stand up and say 'this is not a visa' but the effect, for travelers is the same as if there was a visa. The US Visa Waiver/ESTA program has the effect of a visa program. The UK APN system has similar effect as the US VWP/ESTA system.
What these electronic based systems do is reduce the timescale of the process from days or weeks with visas to, almost, real time. The effect though, no matter how fast it is made, is that the process serves to enable access or not, or to flag for investigation, those who seek to cross borders.
If you don't think so, then go through the effect of a visa upon a traveler and then go through the effect of VWP/ESTA upon a traveler and then do the same for the APN system and tell me how the effect differs.
Dogsoldier, I am certain that you are a great paper pusher and very effective behind your biometric gate thingy, and I'd certainly not try to teach you to suck eggs, it'd be pointless. However, it is certain that you do not necessarily consider the broader picture in everything that you do - if you did you'd likely not be doing what you are doing, where you are doing it.
Don't presume to know what I do or don't do.
A little knowledge is dangerous. You exemplify that statement perfectly.
API has nothing in common with visa or ESTA or the same effect.
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That's like saying read and blue are the same because they are both colours. ;)
For myself I am not sure what the colour read looks like. Curious like many things that Andy knows perhaps he can provide an example.
In nature or a painting in a public museum will suffice.
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The EU will never make the US citizens apply for a visa to enter the EU... Of course not! They are major trading partners it all comes down to :money: The US will just chuck the EU some cash and say something like " Shut the f** up you bunch of twats" And thats the end of it.
Probably any EU officials would wet themselves the thought of getting into any argument with the evil Empire..
:chuckle:
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The EU will never make the US citizens apply for a visa to enter the EU... Of course not! They are major trading partners it all comes down to :money: The US will just chuck the EU some cash and say something like " Shut the f** up you bunch of twats" And thats the end of it.
Probably any EU officials would wet themselves the thought of getting into any argument with the evil Empire..
That's right, just give it a rest you "bunch of twats". :ROFL:
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That's like saying read and blue are the same because they are both colours. ;)
For myself I am not sure what the colour read looks like. Curious like many things that Andy knows perhaps he can provide an example.
In nature or a painting in a public museum will suffice.
I suppose the color reed might be a very light green, almost tan with a shade of green. The color read? That's a good one. :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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The EU will never make the US citizens apply for a visa to enter the EU... Of course not! They are major trading partners it all comes down to :money: The US will just chuck the EU some cash and say something like " Shut the f** up you bunch of twats" And thats the end of it.
Probably any EU officials would wet themselves the thought of getting into any argument with the evil Empire..
That's right, just give it a rest you "bunch of twats". :ROFL:
:thumbsup:
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Interesting. I will have to watch that news and maybe work on some of my Estonian Passport paperwork.
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New article about "new rules." It says many Brits are being turned away at the airport to enter the US because they do not have biometric or 'e-passports'
It says this could affect "hundreds of thousands of travelers" and is the cause of ruined travel plans.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-passport-rule-brits-flying-7900303