Social Stigma-is it dreadful or Nonexisistant?

[Voyager]

The social stigma is something men worry about and I have seen much written about it.

I think once you start discussing agencies with people they will develop the wrong idea. Social stigmas start there.

Has anyone here had trouble at the interview with Immigration? Do they look down on the marriage because they consider her to be a "MOB"?

[Turboguy]

I think they deal with what some would call a MOB so often that I doubt they even think about it other than to make sure the relationship is real.  There are so many people meeting on the internet these days between MOB sites and
American dating sites someone who meets the old fashioned way might seem odd.

[froid]

My run in with real stereotypical negative reactions have been few and far between.  Really I only had one really negative reaction. 

Close friends and family that care about you will first be suspicious, and some of mine have even gone so far as to check into Russian bride scams and confronted me with it, and then they settle down and are supportive.  I just mark that down as them caring for me and worrying about ME first, and then getting past that and being positive then.  Of course they will STILL make fun of you with jokes that are perhaps based on the stereotypes.

The positive reactions come from people who don't have the stereotype in their head. Female friends seem impressed with the Romance of it all, and the guy friends are of course impressed with the exotic Russian beauty I have met. 

And don't forget you might run into the social stigma and stereotypes while IN Russia.  I was surprised to hear Mila's stories about how people reacted to her telling them she was marrying a Canadian.  Some are positive for her, but some immediately picture me as "One of THOSE guys". 
 

[MND]

My family were very supportive with everything, out of my friends 2 did not like the idea and are now no longer friends.

[Eduard]

I think they deal with what some would call a MOB so often that I doubt they even think about it other than to make sure the relationship is real.  There are so many people meeting on the internet these days between MOB sites and
American dating sites someone who meets the old fashioned way might seem odd.

we walked in there with the baby, so proving weather the relationship's real was never an issue

[Eduard]

I occasionally get a hateful look from older women when they see my wife with me, but it's compensated by jelous looks from guys
Most of the time people will stop us to complement us on our beautiful daughter. She really got the best features from each of us.

[mendeleyev]

We had a situation one time coming thru passport control in Seattle.  It was the only time using that airport for entry and I'll never do it again.  My wife retains her Russian citizenship and I'd noticed that Russians were getting a good grilling as they stepped up to present documents. 

At our turn I went first and presented my blue passport and the guy wanted to know why I didn't use the other line.  Because we're together, I replied.  He looked at her passport and then asked why the anglicized spelling is similar but different from my last name.  I took a moment to explain.  Then he started a barrage of questions as to why we were traveling to the USA?  Because we have a home and family here.  Why were you in Russia?  We have a home there and family there.  His line of questions continued and I had an uncomfortable feeling about where things were headed.

It wasn't long until he ticked me off.  Commenting from our passports that we travel frequently he looked at me and asked "if you love it so much, why don't you just stay over there?"

I didn't yell but do have a deep voice and know how to use it.  Reminding him that I'm an American citizen which includes the right to travel, I asked him if all entry officers in Seattle were so routinely rude?  A supervisor stepped over and politely guided us on toward customs so the 'interrogation' ended but inside I was simmering hot.

[Eduard]

We had a situation one time coming thru passport control in Seattle.  It was the only time using that airport for entry and I'll never do it again.  My wife retains her Russian citizenship and I'd noticed that Russians were getting a good grilling as they stepped up to present documents. 

At our turn I went first and presented my blue passport and the guy wanted to know why I didn't use the other line.  Because we're together, I replied.  He looked at her passport and then asked why the anglicized spelling is similar but different from my last name.  I took a moment to explain.  Then he started a barrage of questions as to why we were traveling to the USA?  Because we have a home and family here.  Why were you in Russia?  We have a home there and family there.  His line of questions continued and I had an uncomfortable feeling about where things were headed.

It wasn't long until he ticked me off.  Commenting from our passports that we travel frequently he looked at me and asked "if you love it so much, why don't you just stay over there?"

I didn't yell but do have a deep voice and know how to use it.  Reminding him that I'm an American citizen which includes the right to travel, I asked him if all entry officers in Seattle were so routinely rude?  A supervisor stepped over and politely guided us on toward customs so the 'interrogation' ended but inside I was simmering hot.

you give a miserable, unintelligent a$$hole a little power and they will use it to make themselves feel better about themselves...this is universal across cultures...sad but part of life.
I can never figure out why no one ever gives me hard time with my carry on luggage here in the US. But travelling in Russia or Ukraine with it is always a gamble. You would think that the standart weight/size that you are allowed to take with you on board is the same for the same air line? But no! It seems like each clerk you see has his/her own rules and regulations. On my last trip I was able to bring my bag with me all the way from Tampa to Simferopol, no problems. But when I tried to board with the same bag going from Simferopol to Kiev the nasty female clerk said "no way, too heavy, only up to 7 kilos allowed" Then a male clerk stepped in and said only up to 5 kilos allowed! So I had to check it.
Then in Kiev when we went to weigh the bags, a very sexy female clerk suddenly became vicious! She told my client: "your bag is 13 kilos!!! No way you are bringing it on board with you!!!" I mentioned to her that it's even lighter now than when we travelled from the USA to Ukraine and asked her as to why would the rules be different on the way from Kiev to the USA. She got all pissed, closed the counter and just left! Very Soviet style still (speaking of that great FSU culture versus lack of culture in the USA, according to Julie!)
well we had to stand in a long line all over again but this time my client took some stuff out of his bag and put it in a separate plastic bag which we hid from the clerk's view. This time his bag weighted under 11 kilos (the official limit in Kiev which is apparently different from Simferopol ) so there were no problems. then he just stuffed what he took out back in his bag and we went on happily.

[alenika]

Yes, it seems customs oficers are the same hospitable towards foreigners anywhere 

Btw in Georgia it is already unexistant. We have strict rules and customs officers follow them - about weight, reasons of travel. It's  easy to travel in and out here either for foreigner or local citizens.


Mendeleyev, it seems when they hire customs officers there they make celections based on their bitchiness. More bitchy to foreigners' line and normal ones -to local citizens line.

[b.j.]

Reminding him that I'm an American citizen which includes the right to travel, I asked him if all entry officers in Seattle were so routinely rude?  A supervisor stepped over and politely guided us on toward customs so the 'interrogation' ended but inside I was simmering hot.

I have traveled for years, and each year the airline personnel gets worse.  From the counter people to the flight attendants,  many seem bitter and don't like their jobs. 

[2 Cats]

Don,... so happy to see you start this question. I wanted to revive the same question that i asked in Nov. "What's the big deal?" A lot of good info. for the new guys, as i see it. Unforutnately, all is lost in a "black hole" by now.
 
  But i do have a bit of this thread saved (because of it's importance) and have pasted it here . So to who reads this, please understand, it is not exactly complete.

   ___________________________________________________ 


   Re: What's the BIG deal?!
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2007, 07:05:38 PM » 

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Thanks for the input! Now I would like to contribute some of my thoughts.

This subject has been on my mind for almost as long as I have been involved with this foreign search (maybe 3 years) and due to my recent return from a trip to Kiev to visit my girl, Marina, (see "The Adventure Continues" for info.) I've found even more reason to finally write about this. My efforts, and her efforts, that we have put into this creation of a our relationship, I take very serious and when someone makes humor of it I get a little pissed. Maybe I shouldn't be so sensitive, but then I don't really give a "rats ass" what anyone thinks. I just don't like to be misunderstood especially over something so simple as this. When the time comes and family, friends and acquaintances that have been skeptical meet Marina possible they will feel as if they have been the ignorant morons.
  Anyway I've gotten the usual thoughtless questions, comments, etc. from more of "the confused" since the word has gotten out of my recent trip. Could be small town mentality but, I have seen it from some that are in larger cities and been places. My sister for example, "I don't see how people from different cultures can have anything in common." I shared this with a friend of mine from Ukraine, now living in America. She so wisely said, "someone can live across the street from you and you not have anything in common with them." Guess that shut my sister down. Basically as I have seen it you can pretty much shut anybody down that wishes to belittle and condemn your efforts in your pursuit of this type of relationship. If you know what you are doing and believe in what you are doing then your opponents/critics have no logic, only blather. But one comment that really gets under my skin is the one about "buying a Russian bride", which usually comes from a female. I often wonder what the response would be if I said I was involved with a girl from Italy or maybe Greece? I think for some reason it would be different. Why? What's the BIG deal? Basically people are people no matter where they are from. Marina is just a girl. Of course, when I started to communicate with Marina (and others) there was this fascination, etc. but as time has gone on I see that she is just a normal girl as any other normal girl.  Yet,.. I am still fascinated with this wonderful normal girl.
   I started the internet dating game maybe 6 or 7 years ago. To me it seemed a good way to cut to the chase. You got a lot of facts available about that person right there in front of you. If you don't like 'em then scroll on to the next one you are attracted to. But even then, before I left the country, I found many mindless comments about this procedure on finding "true love". Like "I could never do that! You might meet some psycho on the internet." Well, Duh, you might not. Well, Duh, you might meet a psycho in the grocery store and you might not.
And we have... shut down,.... YES!
   It was maybe 3 years ago a friend told me he had met a girl on the internet from Kazakhstan. And as time went on and he kept me informed, I could only be fascinated, not critical, of what he was doing. So I decided to investigate this idea myself and was just blown away by what I found in these European countries. I also went to the Orient (via internet) for a bit but found I preferred the Slavic women so I decided to continue my search in Russia, Ukraine, etc. And here I will stay. You could not drag me back to any other place including America. God please make this work between me and Marina.
    Today there has got to be hundreds of dating sites/agencies geared for the internet. Today there must be thousands of people that are involved in this procedure to find "true love". Why stay in your backyard when you have the world? The internet has made the world bigger, yet smaller. A girl that happened to live in another country found my listing and wrote to me. I wrote back. It has been over a year now and we find we are very compatible. If you meet someone that you are happy with physically, mentally, spiritually, & soulfully then it should make no difference where the hell they live. Whether they live on the other side of town, on the other side of the country, on the other side of the world.... or Russia. It, to me, does not matter! 
  I think everyone that has had success in this interesting adventure enjoys it when they are asked by someone in a curious POLITE manner, "Tell me some of this story". Marina loves to tell people about us, and I can just imagine her face as shes explaining and showing photos. She's happy and i love it.
So to the confused blathering ignorant morons I must ask, "What's the BIG deal?

Quote from: ForgeMaster on November 23, 2007, 01:38:54 PM
In that case, it is better to win a person over with kindness and consistency if they can be won at all.  It is always possible that the person is right, but you have to judge that for yourself based on the depth of their arguments and the motivation behind them.  I have always said that any topic is open with me.  I will discuss anything and you can possibly talk me out of anything, but you better be able to support what you say.  I only ask the same openness from the other side.  If I am willing to be vulnerable with you, you should show the same openness to the possibility of changing.
Well said Forge! And no offense intended. I'm having the same problem with my Mom. She knows me all my life and still knows nothing about me.
What can ya' do?

Bobby
 
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Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. (Roosevelt, i believe)
 
 
Chris
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  Re: What's the BIG deal?!
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 04:55:36 AM » 

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I am not going to answer all this at the moment, but one answer you can legitimately give to the question "buying a Russian bride",  is this:-

Generally this type of marriages have better chances for surviving than the ones entered in a usual way, even if it may seem absurd from the first sight. (According to USCIS (former INS) study, the success rate in international marriages is 80% after 5 years comparing with 50% of "normal" marriages - i.e. 4 international couples out of 5 are still married after 5 years while every second "normal" marriage ends in divorce. Makes you think!)

There are many other answers of course, and will no doubt be answered shortly.

Chris
 
 

 
 
 
   
 

[2 Cats]

  Since alot of the negative vibs come from AW, i've found a good response for them.

"Miss Whoever", let's say you are single and searching (on the internet), but all you have found are losers & jerks, then one day you have an interesting message from a guy that is interested in YOU. You look at his photo,.. he is appealing to you physically and you like what he has written about himself in his profile, BUT you find that he is from another country, lets say Italy. Would you blow him off because of this? HELL NO!, "Miss Whoever" you would not. You would be curious, respond, and pray for a positive outcome because you like the guy.... despite the fact he is from another country. So don't condemn me for what i do when you would do the same thing! DUH... it's really simple to understand.

There you go... shut'em up.

   

[DevilDog]

  Since alot of the negative vibs come from AW, i've found a good response for them.

"Miss Whoever", let's say you are single and searching (on the internet), but all you have found are losers & jerks, then one day you have an interesting message from a guy that is interested in YOU. You look at his photo,.. he is appealing to you physically and you like what he has written about himself in his profile, BUT you find that he is from another country, lets say Italy. Would you blow him off because of this? HELL NO!, "Miss Whoever" you would not. You would be curious, respond, and pray for a positive outcome because you like the guy.... despite the fact he is from another country. So don't condemn me for what i do when you would do the same thing! DUH... it's really simple to understand.

There you go... shut'em up.

   

Showing them a box of Bon-Bons while they're mid-tirade and tossing them off to the side works just as well. It's also much more amusing if you do it on top of a hill or incline. 

[Catman]

When I come back from Ukraine and told my friends I met a nice girl my friends wives hated it, some had very rude comments and there was a lot of talk behind my back. Now when they ask me what is going on with my life I tell them that they obviously can't handle what I have to say so I will say nothing. It's none of their F-ing business. I will be looking for new friends.

[Wild Orchid]

I can never figure out why no one ever gives me hard time with my carry on luggage here in the US. But travelling in Russia or Ukraine with it is always a gamble. You would think that the standart weight/size that you are allowed to take with you on board is the same for the same air line? But no! It seems like each clerk you see has his/her own rules and regulations.

I never had any problems with my hand luggage while travelling to/from Russia, but I've heard many times that Russian people get grilled on Russian check ins. I don't know why.

As for the subject of the thread, the worst treatment I get from my countrymen on Russian speaking forums. For majority of Russian men we are halflegal prostitutes who came here only because we didn't have any other means like brain to come so had to use you know what instead. As for friends and family if my husband, not once I've heard a nasty remark on this subject.

But while we were getting our mussages in Thailand I noticed that Thai ladies were openly talking about us. When I asked what they were talking about, one said, that I was very beautiful... Yeah.. right... : then she asked me my age.... then she asked the age of my husband. I said he was 25, but he decided to correct me for some reason. 

I have to admit that things like that upset me. I don't know why, but they do.

[Voyager]

I have to admit that things like that upset me. I don't know why, but they do.

Did you meet your husband on-line?

I haven't decided if I should tell anyone how I met her.....

[Wild Orchid]

I have to admit that things like that upset me. I don't know why, but they do.

Did you meet your husband on-line?

I haven't decided if I should tell anyone how I met her.....

No, I've met him at the party. Seriously

[alenika]

Did you meet your husband on-line?

I haven't decided if I should tell anyone how I met her.....

You shouldn't tell and don't have to tell anything. And.. I don't know how you met your woman. If just online in internet or through dating site. If this is through dating site you'll never wash of the image this information will give you and your woman. I already told that this is ok only for those who are involved in agencies to have this business attitude to dating.

But.. actually I am sure that if people in couple fit each other really well then none will have problem with it. But if they have 20-30 years difference, and if he is fat, ugly, poor and she is young beauty then people will not consider this ok in any case - either they met through agency or if he went to Russia, pick her up on street and married.

[Link]

My Mexican associates……Well these guys they think I am …well youll see …Ill explain.

While negotiating my first land deal with these guys. Yulia and I fly down to meet them. We are going to attend a party on the night of the international soccer playoffs between Mexico and some other country that I dont remember. Huge party. Very political too, Governors ,mayors ..etc..are in attendance. I know that I need to gets these guys past the point of thinking Im a gringo shmuck who is going to pay gringo shmuck prices.

<<<We arrive late at the party…very late in fact, which is normal in Mexico . so in we walk , all eyes look at us. Yulia is dolled up to the max, with her waist length blonde hair, incredible blue eyes, wearing platforms with high heels. Standing almost 6 feet tall. Yulia is blue flame stunning. Holding on to my arm. Every dude in the place was salivating. Every dude knows she is my wife. Tall stunning blonds are rare items in Mexico. My stock went through though the roof with the latins >>>>
[/quote]

Well it's kind hard to explain to gringos the social strafication inherited from Spain which is still present until today in the country:

Tall stuning blondes are not that rare here, within certain social circles and certain areas of the coutry they are more common that you will believe the problem is the following:


Despite the popular belief there's a considerable amount of white Mexican people here (more or less 10 % - 15 % are pure white according to the CIA worldfactbook and other sources) so if there are 110 000 000 millions of Mexicans that means approximately 15 millions are pure white, also 60 millions are Mestizos (mixture of Europeans and Indigenous people) and the rest 40 millions are direct descentants of the Indigenous populations.

From Mestizos we can take another 15 - 20 millions from the original 60 millions who are fair skinned or have a majority of European facial gestures if we add this number of fair skinned mestizos to the original 10 million who are pure white we have a total of 20 - 25 millions of Mexicans who are indeed white or fair skinned against 40 millions Indigenous Mexicans and 50 millions Mestizos who dark-skinned or have Indigenous facial gestures.

20 - 25 millions of whites - fair skinned in Mexico is a number higher than the avarage population of Quebec of 7 millions, Sweden of 9 millions, Norway of 4 millions, Denmark of 5 millions and Finland's population of 5 millions, amazing isn't it? but still less than 35 millions of whites in Argentina whose white population is more or less 90 % white.

However Mexico is not considered a white country, why? because we have 50 million Mestizos and 40 million who are direct descendants of the Indigenous population, that makes 90 millon of non whites agains 20 - 25 millions of whites/fair-skinned.

The elites usually descendants from the conquerors were usually white or fair-skinned at the same time the working class or the “proletarian” were brown or dark-skinned. After several hundreds of years or intermarriage the elites get even whiter in contrast with the most dark looking- Amerindian people from lower classes.

Over the generations (and still in the actuality) the descendants of the conquerors who were the most rich or the most interactive were allowed to marry white women (usually blondes) while the other men who weren’t successful enough had to marry an indigenous girl.

The elites clawed their way up out of the indigenous dark masses not only in a racial way, but in a social and economic way also. We can found one example of this in the Mexican soup operas, by the look of the actors. The maids, bus drivers, plumbers and other lesser jobs are all performed by dark-skinned people, while the white collar workers are all performed by white actors and for the look of their women (the majority blondes) people could think that Mexico is located in Scandinavia.

One more recent example is the last Mexican presidential election; the right-wing candidate Felipe Calderon is white, while the leftist Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador is dark-skinned. The ethnic conflicts of Latin America, have found in Marxist- Populism (class struggle) a form of identification

So basically having a blonde wife or girlfriend in many Hispanic speaking countries it's synonym of high social and economic status because natural blondes are not available to everybody even though there's a considerable amount of them in some areas and social classes (it's stupid and ridiculous I know). For example in my University I have several female classmates they are all Mexican born but also they are natural blondes (green or blue eyed), but getting out (in a date or stuff like that) with a Mexican natural blonde is almost impossible because it's almost sure that they belong to a very high economic status (There's a lot of poverty in Latin America but rich people in Latin America have more money than god, remember Carlos Slim, he's Mexican and is the world richest man).

And some Hispanics in general (whether they are white or brown skinned) feel more atracted to white women (specially natural blondes) this happens not only within the Hispanic culture, in Scandinavia I remember  how guys were salivating for a classmate of mine who was a pretty brunnette (Mexican) and they didn't pay attention to the sea of blondes near to them.

So basically unless you have money to burn it is better to stay away from natural Mexican blondes, because even though if the girl likes you it is probably that her parents don't, and you will get into trouble. So if you want a natural blonde girlfriend (or wife) and you are neither super rich or very poor, it is better to ignore Mexicans who are natural blondes and import your girl from other country. The stigma that natural blondes (at least blondes who are Mexican by birth within the elites) are not availble for anybody (only rich or man with certain characteristics) plus the natural attraction that Hispanics (not only Mexican they could be Spaniards, Peruvians, Venezuelans etc) feel for the blondes create a very explosive situation in which girls coming from overseas who are indeed natural blondes are chase like lambs by a group of wolves.

I don't like to generalize but that's unfortunalty the trend.
I'm starting to worry myself because I don't know if I will marry a blonde, a redhead or a brunnette and how she will be threat in some parts of Mexico (specially in the South were white people is almost unexistant) she will be chase and mock by a lot of guys.......oh my ..... that gives me the creep ............ well at least in some parts of Northern Mexico and parts of the West Coast white people are not rare so she will have less troubles there (I hope).

[cufflinks]

Link:

Great post - thank you for the sociological insights - we have many of your country men up here as workers - hopefully soon we can work out the legalization issues.  Mexico really is a beautiful country  - too bad we can't get a handle on the drug trafficking and economic dislocation with the massive shift in North American manufacturing to China.

Cheers,

Mike "cufflinks"

[Olga_Mouse]

My Mexican associates... Well these guys they think I am… well you'll see... I'll explain.

While negotiating my first land deal with these guys, Yulia and I fly down to meet them. We are going to attend a party on the night of the international soccer playoffs between Mexico and some other country that I don't remember. Huge party. Very political too: governors, mayors, etc. are in attendance. I know that I need to gets these guys past the point of thinking Im a gringo shmuck who is going to pay gringo shmuck prices.

We arrive late at the party - very late in fact, which is normal in Mexico. So in we walk, all eyes look at us. Yulia is dolled up to the max, with her waist length blonde hair, incredible blue eyes, wearing platforms with high heels. Standing almost 6 feet tall. Yulia is blue flame stunning. Holding on to my arm. Every dude in the place was salivating. Every dude knows she is my wife. Tall stunning blonds are rare items in Mexico. My stock went through though the roof with the latins.

To those who might not remember the original post: this one has been made by DonAz, and these are not Link's words.

There's a lot of poverty in Latin America but rich people in Latin America have more money than god, remember Carlos Slim, he's Mexican and is the world richest man.

Erm... never heard or read this name before... Has Bill Gates lost his crown already? 

[Turboguy]

Bill is no longer the richest man in the world.   Poor guy has had his worth drop by more than some close contenders are worth.   I don't recall exactly how much his worth has dropped but around 70 Billiion or so give or take more pocket change than all of us put together will ever have.

[Chris]

Warren Buffett went past Gates earlier this year, not sure who wears the crown now though.

[Link]

My Mexican associates... Well these guys they think I am… well you'll see... I'll explain.

While negotiating my first land deal with these guys, Yulia and I fly down to meet them. We are going to attend a party on the night of the international soccer playoffs between Mexico and some other country that I don't remember. Huge party. Very political too: governors, mayors, etc. are in attendance. I know that I need to gets these guys past the point of thinking Im a gringo shmuck who is going to pay gringo shmuck prices.

We arrive late at the party - very late in fact, which is normal in Mexico. So in we walk, all eyes look at us. Yulia is dolled up to the max, with her waist length blonde hair, incredible blue eyes, wearing platforms with high heels. Standing almost 6 feet tall. Yulia is blue flame stunning. Holding on to my arm. Every dude in the place was salivating. Every dude knows she is my wife. Tall stunning blonds are rare items in Mexico. My stock went through though the roof with the latins.

To those who might not remember the original post: this one has been made by DonAz, and these are not Link's words.

There's a lot of poverty in Latin America but rich people in Latin America have more money than god, remember Carlos Slim, he's Mexican and is the world richest man.

Erm... never heard or read this name before... Has Bill Gates lost his crown already? 

 I was quoting and responding DonAz post but I do not how to quote in forum's system yet.. that's why I put the text inside << >> in oder to try to avoid confusion.


Bill Gates is currently number 3, Slim has going down to number 2 and Buffet is number 1 this time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires

[Olga_Mouse]

I was quoting and responding DonAz post but I do not [know] how to quote in forum's system yet.

that's why I put the text inside << >> in oder to try to avoid confusion.

Why the first part of the <<<<, which, according to you, was supposed to symbolise the quote opening, was in the middle of the quoted text then?

IMO, if you really wanted that paragraph to be considered a quote, you could have:

- written the original poster's name before it;

- marked it with italic;

- marked it with bold.

Though, even if I figured out pretty quickly how the quotes work, I can't imagine why a male who really wants to figure it out can't do it?