Should non USA Agencies Adhere to IMBRA?

[sharpbws]

For clarification to the passing reader.......
The IMBRA law is only applicable to US Citizens, and only enforceable against US registered agencies. The US has no jurisdiction outside US borders. A US Citizen who uses a non US agency that is not obligated to enforce US IMBRA laws (or as some Americans do, get a foreign friend to purchase the information for them) will have circumvented this law. The US touts the denial of a K1 visa as punishment for the non compliant citizen, however if the US citizen claims to have met the woman 'walking down the street' or 'whilst feeding the ducks in the park' IMBRA would be effectively null and void. This is becoming increasingly the avenue of choice for US citizens who believe that the government should not intervene in their personal relationships.

All true.

I have mixed feelings about IMBRA.  Nobody wants women from the FSU to fall prey to a sexual preditor.  I personally know of one such instance where a man with a prior sexual molestation conviction went and married a RW 37 years his junior.  They had a child and eventually his true nature came out.  When she told him she wanted out of the relationship he tied her up, raped and sodomized her and left her in a closet and kidnapped their son.  He's now serving a 60+ year prison sentence in the Oklahoma State Penetentiary.  These preditors are masters of manipulation.  Had the law been in place before this girl agreed to marry this man, she definitely would have thought twice about her decision had she known about his previous criminal background.  If the new law can save even one such abuse, I think it's worth it.

And any American citizen who knowingly tries to circumvent the law; the question I have to ask is "What are they trying to hide?"  If I was starting the process right now, I wouldn't hesitate one instant about providing the required information for a background check.

Remember, it's your RIGHT to marry anyone you like, but it is a PRIVLEDGE for you to jump her immigration priority over others by using the K-1 or K-3 process.

That said, I think the "risk" of such circumstances is dropping as the economic conditions in Russia continues to improve.  Women aren't nearly so desperate to exchange their youth and beauty in exchange for a life in a prosperous country with a man they hardly know as they were back in 1997-2003.

But I can see where some people might consider this an infringement on their basic rights. 

:-)
Brad

[Turboguy]

I agree that one situation is too many but it still is a violation of our basic rights.

The only survey ever done of domestic abuse among foreign brides was one done by the US government in 1999 and showed a rate of domestic abuse that was 1/7 the rate of an AM-AW marriage.   Why fix a problem that doesn't exist.

If IMBRA does make it harder for foreign women to come to America those who would have been here will remain in a society where domestic abuse really is rampant and IMBRA will kill for more women than it saves.   There is already at least one death as a result of the IMBRA laws which was a young woman in India. 

I have no objection to stronger criminal background checks during the immigration stage.  I do think having to have one to say hello is wrong.

I will be very surprised if foreign agencies will be able to bypass the IMBRA regulations a few years from now.   Yes, not telling the truth is a way out.  It is a shame our government wants to turn us into liers.

[Bobalouie]

Remember, it's your RIGHT to marry anyone you like, but it is a PRIVLEDGE for you to jump her immigration priority over others by using the K-1 or K-3 process.

I dissagree.  it is not a privledge, it is a right.  The immigration process does not work the same for non USC as it does for a USC.  That is the advantage of being an American.  Just like the immigration policies of most every country favor the lawful residents of that country.  Of course I should get preferential treatment from the US government to bring a fiancee or spouse to my home country.  Just like any American should over people who are not USC and are applying to come to the US.

It works the same as in any US Embassy around the world.  You walk up to the Marine outside, show him the navy blue passport, and you go straight to the front of the line.  Your business comes first because you are a USC, and the governments job is to look out for YOUR intrests, not those of a foriegn national.

[sharpbws]

I dissagree.  it is not a privledge, it is a right.  The immigration process does not work the same for non USC as it does for a USC.  That is the advantage of being an American.  Just like the immigration policies of most every country favor the lawful residents of that country.  Of course I should get preferential treatment from the US government to bring a fiancee or spouse to my home country.  Just like any American should over people who are not USC and are applying to come to the US.

I'm sorry but with all due respect your view is errant.  Just because she is your wife doesn't mean SHE has a RIGHT to live in the USA.   And even if it doesn't seem like it,  the K-1 and K-3 process DOES move her to the front of the line in immigration priority.

For example, say a female US citizen marries a known Al Qaeda terrorist.  Does he automatically have the RIGHT to immigrate to the USA because he's married to a US citizen?  Of course not and the same principal holds true for your foreign citizen wife.

Having your foreign-born wife join you in the USA is a PRIVLEDGE, not a right.  People need to remember that.

:-)
Brad   

[sharpbws]

Your business comes first because you are a USC, and the governments job is to look out for YOUR intersts, not those of a foriegn national.

I think you'll discover that the government considers it HER petition for immigration; not yours.  All you are is a sponsor.  People who have failed marriages and try to get information from the BCIS on the status of an immigration petition they've sponsored find this fact out quickly enough.

:-)
Brad   

[Manny]

I will be very surprised if foreign agencies will be able to bypass the IMBRA regulations a few years from now.

Why so? What right does the US have to attempt to legislate against foreign agencies?

US men would all end up marrying abroad and going straight to K3 having met in the park feeding ducks one day in the past

Two adults should be able to introduce themselves to each other without Big Brothers permission. A good agency is one that would assist men to circumvent stupid laws that serve no purpose and inhibit civil liberties. Is this idea not buried in your constitutional rights somewhere?

[Turboguy]

Well the pen had barely touched the paper before they got to the part about the inalienable right to life, liberty and the persuit of Russian women,  oops I mean happiness but isn't searching and finding the woman we dream of happiness. 

We can walk down the street and smile and say hello to a perfect stranger (who may be a serial rapist) without a bit of problem.   It seems to me that it is total infringement on our rights to tell us we can't say hello to a woman from across the pond if she happens to be single and someone we could be interested in.

I can see it coming to two choices, being dishonest in our applications (which many already are doing) or not getting the visa.   George Orwell was right, just wrong about the year.   May 6th 2006 was one big step towards a totalitarian society.   How long until the feminists want all internet communication between people screened.   Perhaps when they pass the next law and apply it to Match and Yahoo there will be enough of us to change it. 

[sharpbws]

We can walk down the street and smile and say hello to a perfect stranger (who may be a serial rapist) without a bit of problem.   It seems to me that it is total infringement on our rights to tell us we can't say hello to a woman from across the pond if she happens to be single and someone we could be interested in.

What about the rights of Olga who was beaten, raped, sodomized and left tied up in a closet to die while her husband with a criminal record (and 7 1/2 years prison time for previous sexual misconduct) kidnapped their 3 year old son and left for parts unknown.  I'm not bullshitting here.  I actually KNOW this woman!

I've heard some men in this process describe pamplets written in ladies native language that inform potential international brides of their rights in the USA and what to do if they find themselves in a abusive situation as a "How to Scam the System Manual"

I think many men in interested in this way of finding a wife have some serious control issues.

:-)
Brad

   

[Manny]

Olga as in Olga & Mike Conroy? She used to post at RWG. A one off event. You cant credibly legislate against a land mass the size of the states over one, or a few isolated incidents. Mike could have done it to a local woman or any woman.

All internet communication is already screened! The Yanks are clever enough to put the listening station in the UK, slap bang in the middle of the Yorkshire Moors and guarded by machine gun toting US Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON and http://tinyurl.com/3qhoa

I doubt they will be using it to watch e-mails between yanks and smokinhotkovas anytime soon.

George Orwell was indeed a prophet.

[sharpbws]

Olga as in Olga & Mike Conroy? She used to post at RWG. A one off event. You cant credibly legislate against a land mass the size of the states over one, or a few isolated incidents. Mike could have done it to a local woman or any woman.

Yep, that's her.  And do you think the US government would have established the whole I-360 process if abuse of foreign wives was an "isolated event?  We're not talking about just women from the FSU here.  Have to include Asians, Philippians and ladies from South and Central America.

:-)
Brad

[Manny]

Point being, a man can abuse local women to his hearts content, he need not fly to Dumpsk to secure a victim.

And if the law is so easily circumvented, it is worthless.

I assume 'introductions by mutual friends' are similarly exempt?

[sharpbws]

Point being, a man can abuse local women to his hearts content, he need not fly to Dumpsk to secure a victim.

Apples and oranges.  Local women understand the culture and know what to do to protect themselves.  Women from foreign countries are much more isolated and unfamiliar with what rights and legal protections they have in the USA.  Many have a fear of police stemming from abuses in their own countries.  There is no question that a large number of men seek brides from overseas because they feel they'll be able to control them.     

And if the law is so easily circumvented, it is worthless.

The situation with Olga happened well before the passage of IMBRA.  My point is that IF she would have access to the knowledge that Myke was a convicted sexual predator who previously spent 7 1/2 years in jail for his offenses, do you think she would have agreed to marry him?

:-)
Brad 

[Manny]

Perhaps not, but if Mike was searching today, he would use an agency that is not US based making the IMBRA law worthless as they probably would not adhere to it. Even if Europe [as a whole] joined this scheme, agencies avoiding regulation would all end up registered in Belize or somewhere.

Non US agencies have a worldwide client base also, so it is not worthwhile to pander to only US clients by signing up to this scheme for a non US agency.

As with anything, over regulation makes for higher prices.

Further; if Mike Conroy was wanting to meet a woman today, what is to stop him arriving at an agency's office in person in Dumpsk and slapping a wad of notes down, do you expect Hairy Agency Boris to care too much about IMBRA then? Mike would have 6 dates that night!

IMBRA only displaces the problem it is aimed at, it does not solve it. What it does do is inconvenience agencies and clients who do not want to be over regulated.

[Turboguy]

Point being, a man can abuse local women to his hearts content, he need not fly to Dumpsk to secure a victim.

Apples and oranges.  Local women understand the culture and know what to do to protect themselves.  Women from foreign countries are much more isolated and unfamiliar with what rights and legal protections they have in the USA.  Many have a fear of police stemming from abuses in their own countries.  There is no question that a large number of men seek brides from overseas because they feel they'll be able to control them.     

And if the law is so easily circumvented, it is worthless.

The situation with Olga happened well before the passage of IMBRA.  My point is that IF she would have access to the knowledge that Myke was a convicted sexual predator who previously spent 7 1/2 years in jail for his offenses, do you think she would have agreed to marry him?

:-)
Brad 

I think it is not apples and oranges.   If AW know how to protect themselves why do so many stay in abusive relationships.   Why on a percentage bases are 7 times as many AW abused and killed. 

I won't say there are not controlling men who get involved with this endever but if they try it with a RW they might find they got something they had not bargained for it.   I really think those types may target Asian women.

[lonely]

I was quoted this IMBRA law and I laughed at them. I said how can an American law affect two people that do not live in an American country?

So how does the American agency check foreign nationals that use its services? How can a little agency from cletusville Idaho get around other countries tough personal information laws and check the history of the client?

If they can't are they obligated to refund all the money that people have spent with them because they are legally not allowed to provide the service they were selling?

It is good in it's basic idea but like all modern PC laws only keeps the honest people honest.

[Turboguy]

It only effects the relationship if the man is American Lonely but American dollars do fuel that industry a lot.

The intent is good.   The law is bad and there is no real need for it in it's current form.

[Bobalouie]

I'm sorry but with all due respect your view is errant.  Just because she is your wife doesn't mean SHE has a RIGHT to live in the USA.   And even if it doesn't seem like it,  the K-1 and K-3 process DOES move her to the front of the line in immigration priority.

For example, say a female US citizen marries a known Al Qaeda terrorist.  Does he automatically have the RIGHT to immigrate to the USA because he's married to a US citizen?  Of course not and the same principal holds true for your foreign citizen wife.

Having your foreign-born wife join you in the USA is a PRIVLEDGE, not a right.  People need to remember that.

:-)
Brad   

I see the logic here, but I still disagree.  We are not talking about RW being terrorists, and that is why they have to furnish police reports.  Of course, the next argument would be that they are bogus, but lets get real here, how many guys on this board are dating a Chechen terrorist?  The United States is founded on being FREE.  Free to persue our wildest dreams.  It is one cornerstone, one of the others is Family.  The US is not going to deny a USC to bring his wife or fiancee over here if she is a normal person and not a criminal.  It is not in their best interest to do that. 

I do understand what you are saying, and in the truest sense it may be a priveledge, but in practice it is a right.  The government has very specific things that have to be met for a visa to be denied.  So, if your sig other is the type of lady that most are looking for here, there should be no problem.  But then again, here recently many rights are being thrown out the window, and one of those is the right to privacy.  IMBRA trumps that right and throws it right out the window.  I sympathise with the woman of which you speak, but this law still would not protect her from what happened.  Manny has outlined several possible ways for him to get around it.  Therefore, I see no merit in this law. 

[sharpbws]

I see the logic here, but I still disagree.  We are not talking about RW being terrorists, and that is why they have to furnish police reports.

AND submit to an FBI/CIA background check

Of course, the next argument would be that they are bogus, but lets get real here, how many guys on this board are dating a Chechen terrorist?

I'll let the FBI make that determination

The US is not going to deny a USC to bring his wife or fiancee over here if she is a normal person and not a criminal.  It is not in their best interest to do that.

I agree completely.  Doesn't mean it's a RIGHT to do so - like the rights you have that protect you from unfounded arrest.  It's PRIVLEDGE like voting, owning a firearm, driving a car etc. 

IMBRA trumps that right and throws it right out the window.  I sympathise with the woman of which you speak, but this law still would not protect her from what happened.  Manny has outlined several possible ways for him to get around it.  Therefore, I see no merit in this law. 

Your logic seems to indicate that neighborhoods have no right whatsover to know if convicted pedophiles are moving in.  My gosh we wouldn't want to violate their privacy.  When you've done something that becomes part of the public record, your right to privacy about that act is gone.   

It might not have protected her, but it definitely would have given her the information she needed to decide if she REALLY wanted to pursue a relationship with this man.

Personally I think IMBRA is a great concept but a poorly drafted piece of legislation.  IMHO I think they should increase the K-1 fee by $200 and use the money to perform a standardized FBI background check on the K-1/K-3 sponsor, translate the results into her native language and send it to her when they send her the Packet #3 documents she needs to prepare for the interview.  This would give her plenty of time to make a decision whether she wanted to continue the process with this man or not.

:-)
Brad     

[Turboguy]

Brad,

Names are currently checked against multiple data bases (over a dozen including FBI and terrorist lists.  .  Any names that are of interest are sent to the Dept of Justice for A/R which can last years. 

If the petitioner has any record of domestic abuse, violent crimes or drug addition it is reviewed with the fiancee in person during the interview.  If she shows any surprise or was unaware of the criminal record the visa is denied.  She must acknowledge that she is aware of those things.  She is also given a handout in her native language about steps to take if she finds herself a victim of abuse.

As far as the increase fees it is planned for October 1st.  The K-1 will go from $ 170.00 to I believe $ 480.00   I have notes someplace but don't have time to look for them now.

I agree some of the things in IMBRA might help.  There are a lot of bad things too.  Why have a criminal check before you can say hello for example. 

[khersongirls]

The law requires US agencies to complete a questionnaire. It don't require the agency to do a background check other then against the National sex offenders database. Nor does it hold the agency responsible for correct answer on the questionnaire.

What is does is hold the American responsible for completing the questionnaire correctly as the visa can be denied if he lies and it also hold both the American and Foreigner responsible for completing the questionnaire.

If an American uses an Agency that doesn't conform to the law then it fall into the American responsibility for abiding by US Law.

My advice is to have a questionare completed, translated and be ready to have any lady you start a relationship sign it early on.

All of my US client are required to have it completed before meeting or exchange of direct contact information.

Note: If an agency isn't willing to abide by the US Law. Do you really want to work with them? Their ethics are not in your best interest.

[Manny]

Note: If an agency isn't willing to abide by the US Law. Do you really want to work with them? Their ethics are not in your best interest.

If a non US agency adheres to US law is purely choice. Many Americans disagree with IMBRA and so choose agencies that ignore it. Ethics does not come into it, rather the percentile of US clientele an Agency has would dictate it more, together with client opinion.

If Belize or Luxembourg passed a similar law would you adhere to that also? Probably not!

As IMBRA is so easy to circumvent, it is no disadvantage to Americans who choose foreign Agencies who disregard it.

[khersongirls]

Manchester
I agree that an American has the right to use any agency he choices.  But for you to say that a non-usa Agency should ignore a US law that would effect his clients and Ladies visa I disagree with. Every agency should abide by the law that effect their clients even if the law doesn't effect the agency.

Again it is the client that is required to abide by the law. It is the responsibility of all agencies to abide by the laws that effects their clients.  It isn't right for any agency to know that if they do not abide by the law their client is going to have legal problems and a good chance the visa would be denied.

I don't see the problem with completing the questionnaire. A copy is at www.khersongirls.com/newlaw.htm for anyone to use and its a simple process of doing a quick check on the client, translating it and having the lady sign for it isn't that hard.  I charge my client $15 for this service as a one time fee to cover my cost.  The cost of having a visa denied because it wasn't done is a lot more.

The agencies that are having a problem with this are the ones who use computerize sites to sell address and forward letters.  When you require an agency to actually make physical contact with their ladies it causes them problems. (maybe because they have so many bad addresses?)

My opinion.. 

Kevin

[Mamma D]

With all due respect... this is not the only case of a Russian lady being beaten or even killed.... or other nationality for that matter....

It has always been low played....and goes back to the WWII brides in the 40's and 50's.

An English bride, with face black & blue, told me her husband told her she was in his country and ... had NO RIGHTS.  He soon learned his lies were not acceptable.... I also had oriental wives tell me the same...Didn't work.    American Military wives will and do, take care of such ladies...

During the time I have been following this RW/AM.... adventure
on several  boards......I  have come to believe, that since she arrives here, and often meets a stranger.... she is at a distinct disadvantage....

A man,who has no reason to tell the truth about himself. And a lady, who has no way to check out what he says, are not on even ground.

The US mandates she have a background check.... why should it not be so the other way?

My son first met a lady in St Petersburg....that had  come here and found everything had been a lie...

With help, she took her little boys back to Russia and was working to re-make her life....

There have been many such stories.... most of you know I have and do make most of my contacts on a personal basis.  There are happy ones and some really sad ones. A few where the guy has been mistreated in one way or another. Others where a lady makes a leap of faith and gets burned.

It seems there are a lot of meaness out there, and you must stay vigilant.
We must also take care of the ones, who are mis-treated.

That's my story and i am stickin' to it!

[LoverMan]

I agree with Manchester 100%

[Markje]

I must disagree with Manchester. If the government officials find out, they WILL deny your woman's application. The time and pain to get it back straight is not worth it. You must fight this law to have it abolished and not circumvent it. I see Freebird already makes a start with this.