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Information & Chat => Investment & Business Discussion => Topic started by: SuperPanda on September 21, 2016, 06:42:30 AM

Title: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: SuperPanda on September 21, 2016, 06:42:30 AM
After some consideration and finding out earlier on today my job is done for (I'm being put on gardening leave), I've decided to take the dive and start up in Ukraine providing that a suitable factory/distillery with good infrastructure to ship to the EU/UK can be found.

I've spoken to a couple of firms both here in the UK and Ukraine, they've suggested that I set up through a Cypriot company that owns the Ukrainian subsidiary for tax reasons but it is only suitable for dividend payments, I'd still be liable for the full 25% (bar usual deductions) unless I cook the books :rolleye0009:

I'll be investing a significant amount, along with a business partner who is doing it with me but has more experience than I in this particular area, but I'm unsure as to whether the hassle of having an extra company in Cyprus is worth it to save on dividend payments that won't come for quite some time.

The main reason we picked Ukraine is because of the cheapness of set up and labour, we'd considered Poland but it's was more expensive despite slightly less hassle.

Does anyone have any opinions on whether I should listen to the various people I've spoken to thus far, I don't remember there being a Cypriot company when I was consulting before in Ukraine (I didn't set up the business, I came in much later) which is why I'm puzzled and no one has helped me out in my discussions thus far.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 21, 2016, 07:30:49 AM
(Q) How can a foreigner become a millionaire in Ukraine?

(A) Start off as a billionaire.
 :hidechair:
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 21, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
Curious what product are you exporting?

Besides time what is 'a significant amount' that you are investing?

Using a Cypriot 'holding firm' is I understand still common in Ukraine and has been since more or less the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

I would seek a variety of opinions and avoid those who are trying to sell there own 'product'.

So you know Andrew's quip has allot of truth in it.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on September 21, 2016, 08:04:49 AM
SuperPanda

I can only help you re Cyprus

There are many UA representatives in Cyprus that will fall over themselves to advise you re setting up the Company

Corporation tax is 12.5 percent and zero for shipping companies

Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: SuperPanda on September 21, 2016, 08:35:40 AM
(Q) How can a foreigner become a millionaire in Ukraine?

(A) Start off as a billionaire.
 :hidechair:
This is very true and would apply to Israel and Russia as well as the UK too.
Curious what product are you exporting?

Besides time what is 'a significant amount' that you are investing?

Using a Cypriot 'holding firm' is I understand still common in Ukraine and has been since more or less the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

I would seek a variety of opinions and avoid those who are trying to sell there own 'product'.

So you know Andrew's quip has allot of truth in it.
We'll actually be starting get up a vodka distillery however it isn't for the Ukrainian market but an add on to another business I've got a stake in, Ukraine is just cheaper when it comes to doing it, once I wrap my head around the Cyprus/Ukraine Ltd stuff.

There will be a total of 15 million UAH invested in the first year, or at least that is the plan, we'll see what happens once we've found the ideal location.

Is there a particular reason for the Cypriot holding company, aside from dividend taxes there doesn't appear to be a lot to it as the risks are there regardless and protection doesn't appear to be there either.

Thanks :)

Edit: we do have an accountant and various people in London however they're not any help for Ukraine hence why I've turned to the Internet!
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 21, 2016, 09:05:29 AM
. . .  we do have an accountant and various people in London however they're not any help for Ukraine hence why I've turned to the Internet!

I would seek advice from either the Raiffeisen or the Rabo Bank, the Austrian's have a strong presence in Ukraine. A while back Raiffeisen announced they were pulling out, but that planning seems to have changed. Both banks have an ongoing understanding of the farming and food distribution markets in Ukraine. OK I understand it is Vodka.

Your Vodka I assume will be grain based so Ukraine makes some sense. Curious would it not make more sense to re-brand an existing product initially?

You need to be in Kiev to figure this out so it does cost you over the long or short term.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Boris on September 21, 2016, 10:15:44 AM
(Q) How can a foreigner become a millionaire in Ukraine?

(A) Start off as a billionaire.
 :hidechair:

Funny but true...Starting a business in Ukraine would not be on my list of things to do on "Gardening Leave." You would have to have major connections and even then it is a huge risk. By the way....what is Gardening Leave?
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 21, 2016, 10:19:36 AM
(Q) How can a foreigner become a millionaire in Ukraine?

(A) Start off as a billionaire.
 :hidechair:

Funny but true...Starting a business in Ukraine would not be on my list of things to do on "Gardening Leave." You would have to have major connections and even then it is a huge risk. By the way....what is Gardening Leave?

Gardening Leave is a very English way of saying being lead to a very nice pasture as a bull and all the cows are on the other side of the fence and you can have no contact with said cows for a certain period of time.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on September 21, 2016, 11:14:45 AM


Gardening Leave is a very English way of saying being lead to a very nice pasture as a bull and all the cows are on the other side of the fence and you can have no contact with said cows for a certain period of time.

You forgot to add that the 'bull' is  (normally) on full salary - pending a decision on whether to be allowed back in the field with the 'cows' or 'put out to pasture' - sent off looking for another field .... sacked / made redundant
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 21, 2016, 12:02:11 PM
Why not just buy the vodka  and slap pretty  labels on it?

Avoid most of the messing around. Simple transactions and the view from the perspective of the buyer is exactly the same.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 21, 2016, 12:10:41 PM

Your Vodka I assume will be grain based so Ukraine makes some sense. Curious would it not make more sense to re-brand an existing product initially?


Why not just buy the vodka  and slap pretty  labels on it?

Avoid most of the messing around. Simple transactions and the view from the perspective of the buyer is exactly the same.

Andrew, Did you run out of crayons or colouring books? I could next week send you some or perhaps Moby could send you a book to learn to read English.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 21, 2016, 12:11:51 PM
Personally, I would not consider opening any business in Ukraine at the moment..
There are too many hands which have to be greased....
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 21, 2016, 12:12:52 PM
Is there something that you are struggling to say? Put down your glass, brew a cup of strong coffee and have another try.

There's a good lad.  :'(
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 21, 2016, 12:16:46 PM
Is there something that you are struggling to say? Put down your glass, brew a cup of strong coffee and have another try.

There's a good lad.  :'(

I realized something, do you need to check your eye glasses?

It is obvious you can either not read, are unable to read, or do not wish to comprehend.

Or maybe you are bored by crayons and need perhaps Lego?
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: SuperPanda on September 22, 2016, 04:28:22 AM
(Q) How can a foreigner become a millionaire in Ukraine?

(A) Start off as a billionaire.
 :hidechair:

Funny but true...Starting a business in Ukraine would not be on my list of things to do on "Gardening Leave." You would have to have major connections and even then it is a huge risk. By the way....what is Gardening Leave?
Its been on the cards for a while in all honesty, it was between Poland and Ukraine but Poland was going to be 50% more expensive going forward.

Gardening leave is where one loses his job but gets paid a lot of money to do nothing for 3 to 6 months, I can't take another job in that time frame.
. . .  we do have an accountant and various people in London however they're not any help for Ukraine hence why I've turned to the Internet!

I would seek advice from either the Raiffeisen or the Rabo Bank, the Austrian's have a strong presence in Ukraine. A while back Raiffeisen announced they were pulling out, but that planning seems to have changed. Both banks have an ongoing understanding of the farming and food distribution markets in Ukraine. OK I understand it is Vodka.

Your Vodka I assume will be grain based so Ukraine makes some sense. Curious would it not make more sense to re-brand an existing product initially?

You need to be in Kiev to figure this out so it does cost you over the long or short term.
I'll talk to those banks later on today and see if they can point me in the right direction.

Yes it'll be grain based, I've established some suppliers for the grains and certain other aspects already. Re-branding isn't an option, while its easier, it doesn't fit in with the existing business UK side and what we want to achieve from the future Ukrainian outfit.
Why not just buy the vodka  and slap pretty  labels on it?

Avoid most of the messing around. Simple transactions and the view from the perspective of the buyer is exactly the same.
I've looked at private label options but they don't provide what we're looking for and it'll be easier and cheaper in the long run to go forward with our own product straight off the bat.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 22, 2016, 04:48:13 AM
There's easier and easier. ;)

I absolutely understand the preference to have control over the whole process and, in many ways, if you have the expertise and resources that'd be easier for you to manage in the long term. On the other hand, given the parlous state of Ukrainian society and the rather, shall we say, backward nature of business dealings and business law over there, a situation that will not improve within the next decade or so, it might be easier (more practical) to enter into deals where you get the stock you want but where you can use more than one supplier to mitigate your risk.

If things go tits up with your manufacturing in a vertically integrated system then everything is lost. If things go wrong in a supplier/buyer relationship you wash your hands and move on.

Yes, I know, it is my opinion only, but I bet that you will find yourself in a JV setup of some kind if you try to integrate vertically and that'll be setting you up for loss at every turn.

Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on September 22, 2016, 07:01:05 AM
Personally, I would not consider opening any business in Ukraine at the moment..
There are too many hands which have to be greased....

Hmm, the same might be true of some other former Soviet States... why single out Ukraine ?
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Maxx on September 23, 2016, 12:37:13 AM

Start your business in the Republic of Georgia.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2016/05/03/how-to-start-an-offshore-company-in-georgia/

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2014/12/03/georgia-one-capitalist-countries-world/
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on September 23, 2016, 02:44:54 AM
 Starting a business in Ukraine     It's Not April 1st is it? I thought those jokes were kept for April fools day.. :laugh:

Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 23, 2016, 08:42:34 AM
Personally, I would not consider opening any business in Ukraine at the moment..
There are too many hands which have to be greased....

Hmm, the same might be true of some other former Soviet States... why single out Ukraine ?

It might be true about other FSU states, but the OP is talking about Ukraine, nowhere else..
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on September 23, 2016, 09:45:53 AM

It might be true about other FSU states, but the OP is talking about Ukraine, nowhere else..

It certainly is true about other former FSU states - even our ' leader' referred to the need to grease palms - in the context of couriers - in Russia

If somebody wants to start a biz in an FSU country - they need to live there - lots - or have someone really close - trustworthy - preferably family - to circumvent 'issues' that western nations wouldn't face



Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on September 24, 2016, 07:21:29 AM
It should be called "Starting up in HELL" It would make a very interesting business documentary it may even be a good idea to suggest it to Channel 4 or something I think they would jump at the chance :)

I think you will loose every thing and go home broke with your tail behind your legs..Its life!

If you succeed then you would deserve a medal... I think defo get hold of a TV Channel to follow your progress..
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 24, 2016, 12:04:11 PM
Any start up anywhere is tough.

Both the UK and the Netherlands are it seems challenging.

The United States besides allot of lip service to small business is also raising the hurdles. In Ukraine you face other hurdles or barriers as well.

On the other side in all of the above countries you see successful start ups.

It depends less on the location and more on the commitment of those involved. Basically those here with a negative opinion are a bunch of moaning minnows with little more than arm chair expierence.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Manny on September 24, 2016, 01:30:20 PM
It certainly is true about other former FSU states - even our ' leader' referred to the need to grease palms - in the context of couriers - in Russia

I prefaced it with the words my bet. I referred to no "need". It was simply my opinion and not based on intimate knowledge of the inside workings of the organisations involved. Source (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,2670.msg448924.html#msg448924).

And one can start up in Estonia as an example of an FSU place, and one is unlikely to encounter much in the way of corruption.

But as noted, the OP is discussing Ukraine, not Russia or other FSU places.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on September 25, 2016, 03:34:13 AM


I prefaced it with the words my bet. I referred to no "need". It was simply my opinion and not based on intimate knowledge of the inside workings of the organisations involved. Source (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,2670.msg448924.html#msg448924).

Wow.. me thinks thou protest, too much .... 

And one can start up in Estonia as an example of an FSU place, and one is unlikely to encounter much in the way of corruption.

Estonia has had nearly twenty years free of the Soviet yolk and over 12 in the EU....

But as noted, the OP is discussing Ukraine, not Russia or other FSU places.

As, ever - lets concentrate on 'knocking' Ukraine and deny parallels elsewhere in the former  - non EU - nations of the FSU ?

I'm truly pleased if you believe Estonia is less corrupt

Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: SuperPanda on September 25, 2016, 11:13:13 AM
Right to clear a couple of things up;

Andrew, I looked at private label solutions, none of them came close to what we're looking to do. Admittedly it's very risky in Ukraine (and Russia) to attempt this kind of operation but it's a risk that were willing to take. I appreciate the advice and I am looking into other avenues as well as currently Ukraine is proving a right mare as factory location hasn't been found in anyway, shape or form.

Gipsy, hands would need to be greased whether this was in the FSU or the Balkans or Italy, it just costs a lot more to do it in the UK even taking into consideration the 'donations' one need to make in Ukraine.

Moby, the intention is that both myself and my business partner will be living in Ukraine (or wherever it's set up) for the foreseeable future in order to make sure it doesn't go completely tits up.

Steveboy, like everything when starting a business there's always a chance you'll close everything, it's a risk I'm prepared to take, only time will tell if it is the right choice or not.

AvHdB, I agree that starting up anywhere is a challenge and that it's more about the person you are than the set up.  If you're not strong willed and lack faith, you won't succeed.

Now on Tuesday I fly out to Kiev to meet some people that I've connected with through old contacts (completely out of the blue there but thankful) and then on Friday I head to St. Petersburg and Moscow to do something similar and meet up with my tinder girls. I may as we have some fun!  :smokin:

Thanks all for you help and opinions :)
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 25, 2016, 11:26:45 AM
Super Panda,

Please let us know the out come.

There might be a happy ending to this.

Av
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 25, 2016, 11:48:54 AM
Any start up anywhere is tough.

Both the UK and the Netherlands are it seems challenging.

The United States besides allot of lip service to small business is also raising the hurdles. In Ukraine you face other hurdles or barriers as well.

On the other side in all of the above countries you see successful start ups.

It depends less on the location and more on the commitment of those involved. Basically those here with a negative opinion are a bunch of moaning minnows with little more than arm chair expierence.

Who are you calling a moaning minnow??
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 25, 2016, 11:50:41 AM

Gipsy, hands would need to be greased whether this was in the FSU or the Balkans or Italy, it just costs a lot more to do it in the UK even taking into consideration the 'donations' one need to make in Ukraine.


I am involved in 2 businesses in Ru, and so far no palms have needed to be greased...

I have a large family in Ukraine some with their own businesses, they barely survive after being forced to do some protection payments.

I was also pressed about this whilst undertaking my business there..
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Texan77 on September 25, 2016, 02:46:37 PM
You never give any details like what kinds of businesses or where who had to be paid. So when it is all over with your statement do not mean anything. They are just vague comments.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 25, 2016, 03:33:56 PM
I assuming that you, superpanda, are referring to the United Kingdom when mentioning the UK?

I always understand price as being a reflection of risk. That is, higher price (and concomitant lower GP) reflects lower risk. Thus paying a higher price for your raw materials in the UK reflects two things:
1 the risk of failure is significantly lowered by dealing with suppliers,  or setting up the whole operation, in the United Kingdom.

2 the lowered risk also tends to increase predictability.

These are attributes that are usually considered worth paying for,  yes?

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

What is your assessment of the cost benefit of the use of,  what sounds like, a greenfield investment in a vertically integrated setup in Ukraine as compared to a similar setup in the UK or buying in raw materials from UK or Ukraine based suppliers?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.

Having lived over here,  in what I  call FSU LITE for many years I have seen at first hand how many people came a cropper in this,  relatively easy, environment because they became confused by their desired image and lifestyle at the expense of their business abilities and knowhow. I know that the situation in Ukraine is much more difficult to manage for an objective business person than it is here.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 25, 2016, 10:01:29 PM
You never give any details like what kinds of businesses or where who had to be paid. So when it is all over with your statement do not mean anything. They are just vague comments.

Exactly..

My private and personal life is just that......  Private....
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 26, 2016, 08:08:13 AM

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.


Andrew often does not agree with my perspective and vice versa. But he is pointing out some important issues that you need to answer for your self before you proceed.

I do not see you seeking information on relationships on RUA only a business venture. If you can 'afford' to lose your investment and the upside is worth it  than I say go for it.

It would be nice if you came back in 18 months and could show the bird to the naysayers. But there is an expression 'if it is easy everyone would be doing it'
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on September 27, 2016, 04:53:13 AM
I assuming that you, superpanda, are referring to the United Kingdom when mentioning the UK?

I always understand price as being a reflection of risk. That is, higher price (and concomitant lower GP) reflects lower risk. Thus paying a higher price for your raw materials in the UK reflects two things:
1 the risk of failure is significantly lowered by dealing with suppliers,  or setting up the whole operation, in the United Kingdom.

2 the lowered risk also tends to increase predictability.

These are attributes that are usually considered worth paying for,  yes?

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

What is your assessment of the cost benefit of the use of,  what sounds like, a greenfield investment in a vertically integrated setup in Ukraine as compared to a similar setup in the UK or buying in raw materials from UK or Ukraine based suppliers?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.

Having lived over here,  in what I  call FSU LITE for many years I have seen at first hand how many people came a cropper in this,  relatively easy, environment because they became confused by their desired image and lifestyle at the expense of their business abilities and knowhow. I know that the situation in Ukraine is much more difficult to manage for an objective business person than it is here.


To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

That is about as close to the truth as you possibly can get..St Petersburg is full of Turkish business men ( They usually sell 2/3 pairs of socks a week) You will see them in many clubs giving all the gab..funny they usually expect the women to pay for the taxi back , should they catch a young lady.. :laugh:
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 27, 2016, 05:00:22 AM
I assuming that you, superpanda, are referring to the United Kingdom when mentioning the UK?

I always understand price as being a reflection of risk. That is, higher price (and concomitant lower GP) reflects lower risk. Thus paying a higher price for your raw materials in the UK reflects two things:
1 the risk of failure is significantly lowered by dealing with suppliers,  or setting up the whole operation, in the United Kingdom.

2 the lowered risk also tends to increase predictability.

These are attributes that are usually considered worth paying for,  yes?

By taking on increased risk and lower predictability you are,  in essence, gambling. Given your stated preference is linked to non-business, emotional, factors is this a good risk to impose upon your business partners and investors, particularly given that your emotional bias is not likely to be reflected in any part of a business plan or budget shared with those partners and investors?

What is your assessment of the cost benefit of the use of,  what sounds like, a greenfield investment in a vertically integrated setup in Ukraine as compared to a similar setup in the UK or buying in raw materials from UK or Ukraine based suppliers?

To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

I am not saying that you shouldn't do it,  but rather that you need to exclude your emotional entanglement and work out the real costs,  real risks and rewards of your various options.

Having lived over here,  in what I  call FSU LITE for many years I have seen at first hand how many people came a cropper in this,  relatively easy, environment because they became confused by their desired image and lifestyle at the expense of their business abilities and knowhow. I know that the situation in Ukraine is much more difficult to manage for an objective business person than it is here.


To be straightforward about what you have shared I get the strong impression that this project and your stated preference for setting up the whole business in Ukraine is based upon your desire to find totty over there and enjoy the life of the wealthy(ish) foreign biznizman. Many people have had their illusions shattered by the introduction of harsh reality when,  too late, they understood the real costs of their dreams.

That is about as close to the truth as you possibly can get..St Petersburg is full of Turkish business men ( They usually sell 2/3 pairs of socks a week) You will see them in many clubs giving all the gab..funny they usually expect the women to pay for the taxi back , should they catch a young lady.. :laugh:

How much is a taxi from St P's to Turkey??   ;D
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 27, 2016, 07:14:05 AM
I doubt that many people take a taxi, with their bride de nuit, much further than their apartment on Fontanka. My recollections of my time there would suggest that Steve's observation is not far off the mark though. ;)
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on September 27, 2016, 09:16:38 AM
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on September 27, 2016, 11:24:55 AM
^Unless one has a "Roof" (ie, someone in a very high position, and a partner in the company), the business will not survive...
There is currently so much corruption in Ukraine that starting a business without protection is a big risk.
There are also restrictions on the manufacture of alcohol which will need to be addresses, such as "Customs bonded warehousing", and inclusion into the EU quota system..
Good Luck...
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Ste on September 27, 2016, 01:47:14 PM
^Unless one has a "Roof" (ie, someone in a very high position, and a partner in the company), the business will not survive...
There is currently so much corruption in Ukraine that starting a business without protection is a big risk.
There are also restrictions on the manufacture of alcohol which will need to be addresses, such as "Customs bonded warehousing", and inclusion into the EU quota system..
Good Luck...

Same is Russia tho to be fair, everyone I know there in business has a Krisha...

Corruption is rife in all spheres, just in some it's just at the top, in others it's at every level....
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Texan77 on September 27, 2016, 03:30:06 PM
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(

Steve I really think your problem with not being able to raise your rates and make any much money in the dating business has to do with your prejudges. I dated in the Ukraine and did not have such problem. No it was not prefect and yes I ran into some girls on the scam but you know if you are an older guy dating younger girls that happens every where including here. But there are real girls there that want to find a real man. You seem to be so clueless you do not even seem to understand what these girl are wanting in a man. Then you have a dis like for Americans and total hate for the USA this even narrows your market more. You might find some really classless person that does not notice but most of us will. Basically men from the USA date Ukrainians not Russians. If you do not like either how are you going to do well in this business? European tend to date Russian not Ukrainians though I have met Europeans in the Ukraine dating also.

At this point in time I have hired a number of Ukrainians to work on my girls flat. They all have work very hard for a very reasonable rate. I think I got ripped off less there than I would here. Sub contractor are not usually the countries most honest people. It is true that I have tried to hire photo editors and such and that really did not work out. It was so obviously that it was not going to work out I never hired any of them. But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: AvHdB on September 28, 2016, 02:06:43 AM
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(

Steve I really think your problem with not being able to raise your rates and make any much money in the dating business has to do with your prejudges. I dated in the Ukraine and did not have such problem. No it was not prefect and yes I ran into some girls on the scam but you know if you are an older guy dating younger girls that happens every where including here. But there are real girls there that want to find a real man. You seem to be so clueless you do not even seem to understand what these girl are wanting in a man. Then you have a dis like for Americans and total hate for the USA this even narrows your market more. You might find some really classless person that does not notice but most of us will. Basically men from the USA date Ukrainians not Russians. If you do not like either how are you going to do well in this business? European tend to date Russian not Ukrainians though I have met Europeans in the Ukraine dating also.

At this point in time I have hired a number of Ukrainians to work on my girls flat. They all have work very hard for a very reasonable rate. I think I got ripped off less there than I would here. Sub contractor are not usually the countries most honest people. It is true that I have tried to hire photo editors and such and that really did not work out. It was so obviously that it was not going to work out I never hired any of them. But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.

Besides the rather painful hatred that Steve express towards all things Ukraine. I sort of wonder when was Steve's last visit to Ukraine.

There are two different 'economies' being discussed. Like Texan I have not had any problem working with individuals on the flat of my wife in Kiev. But I also suspect Tex as I am are very hands on and can figure things out on our own. Whether hanging wall paper, refinishing floors or installing items. Though I do not get involved with gas and electric installations, but the guys who have come for this sort of work have been professional and reasonable.

Panda is attempting or dreaming of starting an export business from Ukraine to the UK (I suspect England) it involves at least a couple million £. Whether he can get the venture up and running is another matter. Most of his expense will not be in Ukraine but most likely in the UK marketing. At this point I doubt he needs much of a 'roof' just common sense to get his product over the Channel. Can he loose his investment in Ukraine, yes. Can he make money in the UK perhaps. But I wonder does the UK need another vodka product?

Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on September 28, 2016, 04:40:55 AM
The krysha might well take the form of a JV partner, as I noted above, without a person (or firm) who has the knowledge and contacts to get through the morass of formal and informal hindrances I'd bet that a venture will not succeed. At the same time that JV partner will likely become the source of the trouble that eventually either forces a loss of control or sufficient loss of money that the venture, from the perspective of the foreign investor, will fail.

This is not just a Ukraine thing, it is a business 'thing', albeit highlighted in sharp relief in Ukraine at this time. I am sure that Superpanda when he moves past the realm of informal desk research will be told pretty much what I, and others, have been telling him.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: SuperPanda on October 03, 2016, 10:45:23 AM
So I'm back and firstly, outside of office work Kiev, St. Petes and Moscow are fantastic places to visit.

Secondly both are bloody logistical nightmares to set up any kind of business that involves what ours would. Financially both are more than suitable and are winners on that front however setup in order to be able to finance and export with as little hassle as possible is a nightmare and I didn't trust a single one of the people I met (bar my friends father who was supportive but advised me that it would be pointless if the market is in the UK).

I've listened to people out there, I had many conversations with my partner and the UK office and we all decided it isn't worth the ball ache at this time, while it socks financially in the UK, we'Lloyd be more confident of not losing the investment.

My main positives are that I met a beautiful girl called Alena and I'll be keeping in contact with her, that's for sure! I did enjoy ny trip outside of business and I must go back.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on October 03, 2016, 10:51:03 AM
Desk research, wonderful thing, if you do it.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on October 13, 2016, 10:40:44 AM


My main positives are that I met a beautiful girl called Alena and I'll be keeping in contact with her, that's for sure! I did enjoy ny trip outside of business and I must go back.

Every cloud has a silver lining ? :)
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on October 31, 2016, 02:11:33 PM
Making a business in Ukraine! We advertise in Yandex.ru all ok no big problems.. THEN it comes to advertising in Yandex.ua    Its pretty well the usual Ukrainian story... forget about it! fake clicks/fake women/marriage agencies/other sites clicking your ads.. I think they have some set up like maybe 20 women working for them in some stupid sitting room and the boss says "When your home tonight girls I want each of you to click this link and make a fake profile"

Its so pathetic it is laughable..and its funny you can have a Russian site not really much trouble with web site hackers .. Ukrainian well you just sit and wait for some asshole to try.
Every thing in Ukraine stinks, and if its anything to do with dating women even more so.

A sad state of affairs ... :(

Steve I really think your problem with not being able to raise your rates and make any much money in the dating business has to do with your prejudges. I dated in the Ukraine and did not have such problem. No it was not prefect and yes I ran into some girls on the scam but you know if you are an older guy dating younger girls that happens every where including here. But there are real girls there that want to find a real man. You seem to be so clueless you do not even seem to understand what these girl are wanting in a man. Then you have a dis like for Americans and total hate for the USA this even narrows your market more. You might find some really classless person that does not notice but most of us will. Basically men from the USA date Ukrainians not Russians. If you do not like either how are you going to do well in this business? European tend to date Russian not Ukrainians though I have met Europeans in the Ukraine dating also.

At this point in time I have hired a number of Ukrainians to work on my girls flat. They all have work very hard for a very reasonable rate. I think I got ripped off less there than I would here. Sub contractor are not usually the countries most honest people. It is true that I have tried to hire photo editors and such and that really did not work out. It was so obviously that it was not going to work out I never hired any of them. But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.

Besides the rather painful hatred that Steve express towards all things Ukraine. I sort of wonder when was Steve's last visit to Ukraine.

There are two different 'economies' being discussed. Like Texan I have not had any problem working with individuals on the flat of my wife in Kiev. But I also suspect Tex as I am are very hands on and can figure things out on our own. Whether hanging wall paper, refinishing floors or installing items. Though I do not get involved with gas and electric installations, but the guys who have come for this sort of work have been professional and reasonable.

Panda is attempting or dreaming of starting an export business from Ukraine to the UK (I suspect England) it involves at least a couple million £. Whether he can get the venture up and running is another matter. Most of his expense will not be in Ukraine but most likely in the UK marketing. At this point I doubt he needs much of a 'roof' just common sense to get his product over the Channel. Can he loose his investment in Ukraine, yes. Can he make money in the UK perhaps. But I wonder does the UK need another vodka product?

Nearly two years ago was my last trip to Ukraine.. Though Im off there for a few days with the wife some time in February to meet some shady Ukrainians  :)
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on October 31, 2016, 02:13:51 PM


My main positives are that I met a beautiful girl called Alena and I'll be keeping in contact with her, that's for sure! I did enjoy ny trip outside of business and I must go back.

Every cloud has a silver lining ? :)

Where is the silver lining then? ???
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Gipsy on December 17, 2016, 10:37:50 PM
This is how it is in Ukraine...

https://www.Kievpost.com/business/french-winemaker-odesa-oblast-says-business-attack.html

Ukrainians get extremely jealous if your business is succeeding and want a slice...
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on December 19, 2016, 08:12:08 AM
This is how it is in Ukraine...

https://www.Kievpost.com/business/french-winemaker-odesa-oblast-says-business-attack.html

Ukrainians get extremely jealous if your business is succeeding and want a slice...

Its called "F*** lazy"
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Texan77 on December 19, 2016, 09:36:43 AM
You see Steve you started off shady Ukrainians before you even met them. Now that is really having an open mind.  :'( I am sure after you met them all your worse thoughts were confirmed. Amazing how that works out.

Yea, Ukraine is so corrupt that I am thinking of buying a second apartment in the Ukraine. I found my girl was really good at getting this work done and controlling cost. I was really pleasantly surprise at how well this worked. She was able to get the work done so cheaply and so well that I never did any work on the flat myself. I went over there and bought supplies and paid the labor.

My girl is needing less support now with new apartment. So the flat in the Ukraine is returning on the investment if you think of it like that.

I am having her trained to do photo editing. We are planning to have a new business where I find her clients from the USA and she edits the pictures in the Ukraine. This will require a very small amount of money both in training as well as the computer to work on. Her private teacher is costing me $7.50 per hour and she is taking classes for 6 hours a week. I already took over a editing lap top with software on it for her to learn on. She is in her second month of training now. We expect she will start to take clients in February.


 
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Steveboy on December 19, 2016, 10:19:06 AM
You see Steve you started off shady Ukrainians before you even met them. Now that is really having an open mind.  :'( I am sure after you met them all your worse thoughts were confirmed. Amazing how that works out.

Yea, Ukraine is so corrupt that I am thinking of buying a second apartment in the Ukraine. I found my girl was really good at getting this work done and controlling cost. I was really pleasantly surprise at how well this worked. She was able to get the work done so cheaply and so well that I never did any work on the flat myself. I went over there and bought supplies and paid the labor.

My girl is needing less support now with new apartment. So the flat in the Ukraine is returning on the investment if you think of it like that.

I am having her trained to do photo editing. We are planning to have a new business where I find her clients from the USA and she edits the pictures in the Ukraine. This will require a very small amount of money both in training as well as the computer to work on. Her private teacher is costing me $7.50 per hour and she is taking classes for 6 hours a week. I already took over a editing lap top with software on it for her to learn on. She is in her second month of training now. We expect she will start to take clients in February.

Fair play to you and hope all works out..proof of the pudding will be in about 10 years time.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: andrewfi on December 19, 2016, 05:17:55 PM
I am sure that the girl and her boyfriend are both very grateful for your generosity.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Texan77 on December 19, 2016, 05:20:12 PM

Fair play to you and hope all works out..proof of the pudding will be in about 10 years time.

This is all how you look at it. This summer will be four years. If after ten years everything blows up I will not regret it because this happens with relationships. I know many couples here that did not do well later in life. I enjoy each year as it happens and will not have regrets if one of these years it does not make it any more. I will have had tens years of pleasant company. I look at like I would spent that money I am spending in the Ukraine on something if I did not have her. I will not see it as a lost or being cheated. 

Dating did not go well for her in her twenties. Why do you think she is going to want to date again in her forties. At the ten year mark the son will be grown and she will have an empty nest. The grandchildren will likely be on there way if not already born. Hopefully she will be successful enough to get a visa to come the US as a tourist visit me often. 

My last girlfriend lasted 13 years here in the US. We are still friends. None of my relationships including my ex wife have ended in us hating each other or what you could call bad will. Why should this one be different?
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Texan77 on December 19, 2016, 05:35:34 PM
I am sure that the girl and her boyfriend are both very grateful for your generosity.

This is just one more of you racist remarks. I know you hate to see anything good happen to any body from the USA or anybody from Ukraine. I have already explained to you why I know she does not have a boyfriend. Still you keep on this line over and over again.

 
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: msmoby on December 20, 2016, 01:42:10 AM
This is how it is in Ukraine...

https://www.Kievpost.com/business/french-winemaker-odesa-oblast-says-business-attack.html

Ukrainians get extremely jealous if your business is succeeding and want a slice...

Here we go !..

Gypo suggests Ukrainian's get 'extremely jealous' yet overlooks that in other FSU nations - incl. Russia - there are frequent incidents where new biz' get hassled by police / local govt officials - to ensure a hard time....  [ fiends / relatives own rival firms ] I know a lovely lady from a Russian satellite town of Moscow that tried setting up a taxi service aimed at lady clients  - who endured such treatment ..

I've seen such 'games' in Cyprus - successful new night clubs burnt down and in other Levant nations.... 



Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Ste on December 21, 2016, 10:11:34 AM
I was told on here prior to our trip to Kiev that best not admit to being a Brit and the current Mrs Ste to be careful cos she's Russian, turns out absolutely no problems at all actually on the ground.

Chat shit, get banged...
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Boris on December 21, 2016, 10:19:52 AM
I am sure that the girl and her boyfriend are both very grateful for your generosity.

This is just one more of you racist remarks. I know you hate to see anything good happen to any body from the USA or anybody from Ukraine. I have already explained to you why I know she does not have a boyfriend. Still you keep on this line over and over again.

Andrew's remarks are insensitive but not racist. Unless that is not a camera you are holding in your photo :-))) Like BB, I encourage the ignore function of the forum.
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Ste on December 21, 2016, 10:24:36 AM
Wir alle lieben Schadenfreude...
Title: Re: Starting up in Ukraine
Post by: Boris on December 21, 2016, 10:26:31 AM
This is how it is in Ukraine...

https://www.Kievpost.com/business/french-winemaker-odesa-oblast-says-business-attack.html

Ukrainians get extremely jealous if your business is succeeding and want a slice...

Yep, that's a Frenchman...