Russian, Ukrainian & FSU Information & Manosphere Discussion Forums
Information & Chat => News & Political Discussion => Topic started by: Tom Cat on September 07, 2015, 08:19:09 AM
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Putin will be at it again. :chuckle:
Putin to go to America to hand out one billion in bribes, Russian expert says
http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/09/07/putin_to_go_to_america_to_hand_out_one_billion_in_bribes_russian_expert_says_622321
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That's hilarious! Who writes this crap with a straight face? (:)
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That's hilarious! Who writes this crap with a straight face? (:)
I tried reading Ukrainian media, really, I did.
But it is not possible.
Balanced reporting and analysis is now illegal and what is left is shouty, insane stuff about which all that one needs to know is that it is shouty and insane.
It is like every media outlet, every newspaper, every magazine, every tv show is ALL the Sunday Sport (maybe National Enquirer for USAians) - minus some of the sex.
Now, I can enjoy a good made up story as much as the next bloke, but when that's all there is it gets boring!
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That's hilarious! Who writes this crap with a straight face? (:)
It beggars belief that anyone (besides Jay) would take such articles seriously... but there are millions of them.
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Laugh .
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Laugh .
Welcome Larissa 2 tiphat
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Amazing what Ukrainian media comes up with.
Now it's Russian soldiers eating Ukrainian foods. :chuckle:
Crimean leader blows whistle on Ukrainian companies supplying food to Crimea
http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/09/11/crimean_leader_blows_whistle_on_ukrainian_companies_supplying_food_to_crimea_623752
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Breaking news only from Ukraine
Ukraine has photos of Buk missile battery in place it fired on MH17
http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/10/10/ukraine_has_photos_of_buk_missile_battery_in_place_it_fired_on_mh17_632057
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And yet, there are no photographs.
You know, last week I saw Jesus Christ. We went out and had a few drinks in town. Nice bloke, bit too goody goody for me though. But what an idiot I was, I forgot to take a photo of us - now nobody will believe me, I might as well stay shtum about it.
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And yet, there are no photographs.
Well, the article SAYS ''The Dutch experts have confirmed the authenticity of the photos.''... Perhaps, you'll need to send a memo to your handler .... :chuckle:
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And yet, there are no photographs.
Well, the article SAYS ''The Dutch experts have confirmed the authenticity of the photos.''... Perhaps, you'll need to send a memo to your handler .... :chuckle:
Unless you read it on the official Dutch site, it is likely made up. The nature of Ukrainian and other propaganda. Zik routinely makes stuff up, so one can regard it like Fox and CNN.
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Unless you read it on the official Dutch site, it is likely made up. The nature of Ukrainian and other propaganda. Zik routinely makes stuff up, so one can regard it like Fox and CNN.
You forgot,
Russia Today, Pravda, Sputnik, Ruptly, Daily Mail, ....
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Russia Today, Pravda, Sputnik, Ruptly, Daily Mail, ....
Doesn't make stuff up.
Russia Today, Pravda, Sputnik, Ruptly, Daily Mail, ....
Makes stuff up.
Glad to help. tiphat
Please observe topic title and post any replies in the correct topic.
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Unless you read it on the official Dutch site, it is likely made up. The nature of Ukrainian and other propaganda. Zik routinely makes stuff up, so one can regard it like Fox and CNN.
In Dutch newssites, there was only talk about the Russians submitting evidence it was a 'bomb' in de cockpit, with audio-tapes of the voice-recorder of MH17.
Dutch reporters then said that propaganda was so huge the truth was to be determined only by the investigators and not some news media. (Ergo: we dont believe the bomb story)
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And yet, there are no photographs.
Well, the article SAYS ''The Dutch experts have confirmed the authenticity of the photos.''... Perhaps, you'll need to send a memo to your handler .... :chuckle:
As you'd know if you were able to tell the difference between fact and lies fiction, there was nothing in the article to give it any verisimilitude.
However, the absence of the claimed images, the value of which would not be affected by their publication, was somewhat notable.
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Please observe topic title and post any replies in the correct topic.
If you wish to move your laughable response and witness a few examples of stuff that was made up... by Russia Today, Pravda, Sputnik, Ruptly, etc., let me know and I'll post you plenty of examples ..... in a new thread - of course.. :chuckle:
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Please observe topic title and post any replies in the correct topic.
If you wish to move your laughable response and witness a few examples of stuff that was made up... by Russia Today, Pravda, Sputnik, Ruptly, etc., let me know and I'll post you plenty of examples ..... in a new thread - of course.. :chuckle:
Feel free to make a new topic on that subject. I'd be happy to read it. Although don't interpret my silence over the next week as anything other than me being out of town with limited net access.
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Ukrainian military intelligence had a difficult enough time providing proof of Russian troops in Ukraine.
Now they are able to have numbers of Russian troops that died in Syria and the causes.
I find it hard to believe that any Russian military in Syria would be subject to living conditions as stated.
Bodies of 26 Russian servicemen delivered to Sevastopol
http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/10/20/bodies_of_26_russian_servicemen_delivered_to_sevastopol_634857
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POLITICS16:30 NOV. 9, 2015
Top Putin aide supported militants during Ukraine war: Zakharchenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/top-putin-aide-supported-militants-during-ukraine-war-zakharchenko-530445.html
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POLITICS15:22 NOV. 9, 2015
Russian-separatist forces strengthen positions, bolster surveillance: Ukrainian MoD
http://uatoday.tv/politics/east-ukraine-conflict-escalates-militans-fire-in-all-directions-530355.html
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Russia forces war criminals to fight in east Ukraine - Ukrainian intelligence services
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russia-forces-war-criminals-to-fight-in-east-ukraine-ukrainian-intelligence-services-535368.html
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Wonder if Poroshenko actually believes what he tells the Ukrainian people? Joining the EU, NATO, visa free travel, are all a pipedream.
Ukrainians to decide on joining NATO by referendum: Poroshenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/ukrainians-to-decide-on-joining-nato-by-referendum-poroshenko-540156.html
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Wonder if Poroshenko actually believes what he tells the Ukrainian people? Joining the EU, NATO, visa free travel, are all a pipedream.
Ukrainians to decide on joining NATO by referendum: Poroshenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/ukrainians-to-decide-on-joining-nato-by-referendum-poroshenko-540156.html
The goal of NATO membership has been present almost from day one of Ukraine independence.
My guess this referendum will pass. It will mean if Ukraine joins a massive border country of Russia is now a member of NATO, and this will not be celebrated in the Moscow Kremlin.
But a positive vote does not mean Ukraine will be a footstep away from entering NATO. There are many conditions the Ukraine will have to meet to be a full member. On the other side is the fact that Ukraine military have participated in UN and NATO efforts. So some (perhaps many) of the protocols are known.
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But a positive vote does not mean Ukraine will be a footstep away from entering NATO. There are many conditions the Ukraine will have to meet to be a full member. On the other side is the fact that Ukraine military have participated in UN and NATO efforts. So some (perhaps many) of the protocols are known.
Another condition is that you are currently in peaceful relationships with all of your direct neighbours.
That might become a problem for their joining Nato.
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As far as NATO 'access' to Russia there is absolutely no requirement for Ukraine to join NATO.
The already signed, and in effect, part of the EU Association Agreement already gives NATO access to Ukrainian territory and assumes that Ukrainian forces will move toward compliance with NATO standards.
The wishes of the Ukrainian people are moot, as is formal membership of NATO. This way NATO gets what it seeks from the arrangement without the bother of having to support Ukraine or 'defend' the place, unless NATO itself chooses to do so.
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As far as NATO 'access' to Russia there is absolutely no requirement for Ukraine to join NATO.
The already signed, and in effect, part of the EU Association Agreement already gives NATO access to Ukrainian territory and assumes that Ukrainian forces will move toward compliance with NATO standards.
The wishes of the Ukrainian people are moot, as is formal membership of NATO. This way NATO gets what it seeks from the arrangement without the bother of having to support Ukraine or 'defend' the place, unless NATO itself chooses to do so.
Curious wrong dosage?
What are you blathering about?
A referendum is I hope obvious (to you) that this is the will of the citizens of said country. If said country has an issue meeting criteria than I suspect an 'arrangement' can be found or created.
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You really have no idea do you?
After all this time, you still don't get it do you?
I know you ain't dumb as a rock, but you are acting like it.
Read my post. Use the information therein to do some searches on Google. Take the time to read the EU/Ukrainian Association Agreement, the political side, and stop being so bloody silly.
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You really have no idea do you?
After all this time, you still don't get it do you?
I know you ain't dumb as a rock, but you are acting like it.
Read my post. Use the information therein to do some searches on Google. Take the time to read the EU/Ukrainian Association Agreement, the political side, and stop being so bloody silly.
Please try to stop convulting my posts into something they are not. I am referring to the will of the people. It has little to do with the course or direction that the political leaders follow.
I hope in society you do not function as you do on RUA. You are making yourself look like the posterior of a female ass. It is not pretty in my opinion.
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If nothing else Ukrainian media is becoming westernized.
Putin seized by panic – Great Russia project falling apart
http://zik.ua/en/news/2015/11/27/putin_seized_by_panic__great_russia_project_falling_apart_647047
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I hope in society you do not function as you do on RUA.
Did you not call Andy a horse's ass, tell him that he is blathering and inquire about the dosage of his meds?
Is this typical of how you interact with people in the real world?
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AvHdB, I 'convoluted' [sic] nothing. You don't know what you are going on about and are now trying to conceal your knowledge deficit by blathering about irrelevancies.
Once the EU Association Agreement went into effect the wishes of Ukrainians in respect of NATO membership were rendered moot. You'd know this if you had done the reading to inform your opinion. NATO now has the right to use Ukrainian territory for its purposes, the Ukrainian army now must align its training and weaponry toward NATO standards. On the other hand there is no mutual defence treaty so Ukraine does not get the 'benefits' of membership.
Go do the reading and then get back to me about the will of the people.
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I hope in society you do not function as you do on RUA.
Did you not call Andy a horse's ass, tell him that he is blathering and inquire about the dosage of his meds?
Is this typical of how you interact with people in the real world?
Most likely I did, (my apologies to Andrew) but Andrew it seems to like to argue about what colour is black. Sometimes I think Andrew as many English folk do complain, even about the shape of a rain drop. Andrew has constantly referred to my lack of English skills and the fact that I have posted drunk.
He peppers almost every reply to anyone who objects to his line of thinking with an insult or derogatory comment regarding that poster.
He has in the past questioned some posters sexual orientation and told us on one side he knows little about sproglets but than claims to have regular interaction with teenagers. We know he has never raised a child to be a successful adult.
Life on RUA would be more pleasant if replies were along your lines and not the excessive use of insults and posting in bold 24 points red. If you want to rant, get a soap box and stand at North East corner of Hyde Park.
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Life on RUA would be more pleasant if replies were along your lines...
Not necessarily; I can't be arsed breaking down a discussion into an introduction, thesis statement, body, conclusion and citations that way that Andrew often does. If you consider only the content, you will find his posts much more palatable.
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Ukrainian multimedia platform for broadcasting
Occupied Donbas as weapon forge of ISIS
yesterday 12:16131Interesting products are manufactured at the workshops of OJSC Komsomolsk Mine Group in Starobeshivsky district (Donetsk region) captured by Russian mercenaries.Recent development of situation in Donbas indicates that Russia seems to invent a new intended use for them.Before temporarily occupied territories in eastern Ukraine were used mainly as a testing ground for the latest achievements of the Russian military–industrial complex, as a "goldmine" for the Russian and local looters. They were also used for "recycling" of unfavorable elements of Russian society, who died and continued to die for mythical ideas of a mythical "New Russia" (Novorossiya). But today this region is widely used for the production and smuggling of weapons. ISIS militants are the main "importers" of DPR military production."Grad" in three shiftsAn author of these words found out from his own quite reliable sources that the production of 9P132 Grad-P Partizan portable rocket launchers was adjusted with the help of Russian experts on the temporarily occupied territory in Donetsk region, in the village of Komsomolsk of Starobeshivsky district.The workshops of OJSC Komsomolsk Mine Group in Starobeshivsky district are used for the manufacture of these weapons. Not only the fact of the production of weapons should be noted, but also the extent to which it is carried out. For example, the workers in the workshops, where the weapons are produced, work in three shifts, 12 hours a day and have a much higher salary than their colleagues who work within specialty of OJSC Komsomolsk Mine Group.Interesting fact is that well-established production capacity in the shops of OJSC Komsomolsk Mine Group Company does not match the scale of Grad-P rocket launchers’ use by Russian-terrorist troops in the ATO area. Hence the conclusion is that DPR production of military items is intended for export.Who buys?It‘s not difficult to guess who can be a potential buyer of products under the brand "made in DPR". Given that the Donetsk People's Republic, which is not recognized by anyone, can "trade" only with the same terrorist organizations, as well as its patron Russia that has special interest in the Syrian conflict and bombards everyone there except the ISIS, so the consumer side of smuggling from DPR becomes more than obvious.As of today, there is plenty of evidence that the ISIS militants use such weaponry as Grad-P rocket launchers, including witnesses from the fighting, and video and photo evidence posted on the Internet. But recently, these proofs have been actively removed for some reason together with the accounts on which they were posted. All of this means that someone is trying to cover tracks.Under cover of fakeMoreover, nothing distinguishes the Russian style better than the use of an old KGB method, namely, escaping all suspicions of this or that action by accusing an opponent (in this case, Ukraine). This happened in the case with Grad-P Light portable rocket systems, when the so-called Deputy Commander of the Defense Ministry of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR), Eduard Basurin, said that the Ukrainian subdivisions of volunteer battalions allegedly fired a makeshift launcher, which is used by ISIS militants, on a residential district in Donetsk.The stress on volunteer battalions made in this Kremlin informational “report” is clear: if one were speaking about the use of Grad-P rocket systems by the armed forces, the fake would be too obvious, because the Armed Forces of Ukraine (as well as other Ukraine’s law enforcement agencies) simply do not have these launchers in service. Moreover, they are not produced at the Ukrainian defense enterprises. Therefore, Moscow chose the volunteer battalions that allegedly "can get from the volunteers anything they want."But there is a slight hitch in all this. Taking into account that the secret embargo on the arms supplies to Ukraine is still in effect, and the fact that sometimes it’s very difficult for the volunteers to carry even bulletproof vests and helmets to Ukraine, they could not have obtained even theoretically such kind of weapon as Grad-P rocket systems.Together with the export of Grad systems, ISIS militants obtain trained commandos from the DPR – the operators of such weaponAt the same time, the phrase said by a DPR commander that "such a launch (peculiar to Grad-P) has been traditionally used by ISIS militants" leads to some thoughts. None other but the direct producers and exporters of this kind of weapon know about all specifics of its use in the Syrian conflict. And considering the fact that the active recruitment of mercenaries is still taking place in the occupied territory of Donbass, as well as to ISIS subdivisions, the Syrian militants together with the export of Grad systems are able to obtain the trained operators of this weapon, while the leaders of the terrorists in Donbass have the opportunity to know “first hand” about all the facts of its use.It also should be noted that the whole story with the statement by Eduard Basurin reminds a recent utterance about weapons allegedly supplied by Ukraine to ISIS. And this utterance appeared only following the statement made by a Lebanese, who supposedly bought weapons (Chinese man portable air defense system FN6) in Ukraine and send it to ISIS militants through Turkey.Moscow styleAccording to the research, conducted by Kiev Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies (CACDS), first of all, Lebanese Osama Hayat, who was arrested in Kuwait on suspicion of supporting ISIS, and five his accomplices have never crossed the border of Ukraine. Secondly, the State Service of Export Control of Ukraine as of November 20, 2015 received no addresses and provided no permits for international transfers, including import/export/transit of Chinese man portable air defense systems FN6 through the territory of Ukraine. Thirdly, it turned out that a number of weapons for ISIS were supplied by Russia from the occupied territory of Donbas through Crimea. In turn, they were delivered to Donbas via the Russian so-called “humanitarian aid convoy”.In this case, the “puppet” DPR/LPR are very advantageous for Moscow, because they are kind of a layer enabling Russia to avoid the direct reference to the real arms suppliers. Thus, like in the case with Chinese man portable air defense systems FN6 , as well as with Grad-P systems, Russian propagandists and their marionettes in Donbas are aware of origin of such weapons and their real destination.In addition, apart from the weapons, at present ISIS militants for some reason are interested in ... Ukrainian passports. Thus, according to the information provided by the competent SBU departments, ISIS representatives repeatedly have made attempts to acquire the printed forms of Ukrainian passports, which had been grabbed by the militants of the so-called DPR/LPR in the temporarily occupied territories of Lugansk and Donetsk regions.Which conclusion can be made from all this? Only one: Russia does not change. As before, it captures other people's lands in order to use them then for its criminal activities. And at the same time, it used a long-established scheme to cover up its misdeeds, namely: it proactively accuses all those whom it considers to be enemies.And everything could have turned out as Moscow wanted, but this scheme has started to fail recently: either the style peculiar to the Kremlin is too obvious, or the mysterious soul of some representative of the "Russian world" manifest itself at the most inopportune time.Ihor Fedyk. Kiev
http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-politics/1934110-occupied-donbas-as-weapon-forge-of-isis.html
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April Fool come early?
This seems to be projection based upon what Ukraine has been doing.
As we see here, on this forum, one technique used by unimaginative fools is to accuse others of that which they have just done, or been accused of doing.
It is almost a rule of thumb - in this case Ukraine has been seen to be supporting 'Islamist' (hate that term) groups and as the reports became public the accusees accuse their opponents of the same thing. One can pretty much take such accusations as demonstrating the veracity of the original claims. ;)
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While I will not say my English usage is perfect, Ihor Fedyk, should apply for a refund from who ever taught him English.
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1/ it WAS part of Ukraine, but fully autonomous. Even more than Scotland of England and they got a referendum.
You missed the part that it is STILL de jure - as far as most nations are concerned - STILL - part of Ukraine - hence being part of the continued sanctions that certain parties here were telling us would not continue :coffeeread:
2/ Which force? It was a huge going-home party with harmless fireworks and not a single death of civilians and 1 military has been shot under suspicious circumstances. There weren't even disgruntled anti-referendum people trying to stop the voting going on. I haven't heard a single report of any credibility that claims the Crimeans as a whole were going to vote any-other-way than joining Russia.
Markje, you can post 'bollox' and I'll happily counter it with FACTS - for as long as you - or any one on here - continues to avoid the truth...
If troops from Belgium / USA - surrounded your NL bases and offered the military personnel the choice to leave without their guns or join the Belgian / US army - that is FORCE ...
Any 'referendum' held thereafter would - correctly - be 'sus'...
IF you bother to check - prior to the removal of Yanu' and the Maidan movement - there had BEEN polls and the numbers wanting to join with Russia were small.. The Kremlin stirred up the 'auti-Maidan' and 'Nazi danger' - don't believe me ... ? The UNHCR were warning of the risks of polarisation and violence ...
3/ The Crimean Tatars are living happily inside Crimea.
Yeah, right ... like they are free to protest.. and you'll not see such protests on RU tv
The Tatars outside Crimea are simply hateful because they were disallowed a Russian passport/visa and thus can no longer go "home". I use the word "home" broadly because they used to live in Kiev and still do live in Kiev. They are all political-party leaders. Not even the Crimean Tatars consider them their leaders anymore, because of the Terrorism acts they are involved in.
Sighs - WHO is the REAL propaganda believer is evident, now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)
Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
I couldn't put it better - just WHO is the 'cherry picker' is the issue..
A small percentage of the Tatars do not represent the Tatar community.
Mark.
Like you would know - or believe any evidence to the contrary ...
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1/ it's de jure par of Ukraine
2/ force was used to create the circumstance of the 'referendum'
3/ the much put down indigenous population;s leaders are 'terrorists' for refusing to accept the military takeover by the planted majority
As for the poll... when VVP - finally - stops changing the rules to get elected and making it increasingly difficult for a solid opposition to form
All completely made up. :whistle:
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.... snores ..
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it is STILL de jure - as far as most nations are concerned - STILL - part of Ukraine -
You are surely not still banging on about Crimea being technically Ukraine once upon a time? :'(
That is all done and dusted - Crimea is Russia now. Get used to it......
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You are surely not still banging on about Crimea being technically Ukraine once upon a time? :'(
That is all done and dusted - Crimea is Russia now. Get used to it......
'Might is right', eh ?
Let me make it very simple for you.. I don't think you have BEEN to many of the places we discuss and I have not been to Crimea since the 'referendum' - but talk to folk from there and chat to Russians and Ukrainians...
I saw that most folk living in Crimea FELT Russian and the historical connection. I GET why it is important to Russians having been to Sevastopol - visited the Museums and forts
http://www.sev-museum-panorama.com/ru/map.html (http://www.sev-museum-panorama.com/ru/map.html)
The Kremlin rented bases from Ukraine - with whom they had agreed Crimea is a constituent part of UKRAINE.. The Kremlin broke the treaty on BS pre-texts
I understand that for many being part of Russia was some wonderful dream and polls about joining with Russia - prior to talking up anti-Maidan and 'nazis' did not reflect a strong desire for leaving Ukraine.
If you cannot / will not see the irony of Russia saying any elections in Syria would take 18 months to organise, yet they managed to rush through the 'referendum' in a month - then you are beyond reasoning with..
I can count the Russian friends who might share my views on the fingers of one hand... but they - mostly - will quietly agree - in a reasoned debate - that it seems 'self-determination' is 'ok' if one wants to join the RF - not leave.
I accept that the Kremlin cannot lose face and admit it broke all the rules to gain popularity at home - Crimea is Putin's Falklands Factor - so it remains de facto under Russian control.
How it was achieved was not acceptable behaviour - 100 Nations said so - and unless Russia comes to some financial settlement with Ukraine - the issue will be a constant de-stabilising example and render treaties with the Kremlin worthless.
I do not want to see Russians isolated, mis-trusted. Putin is seeking a scenario whereby he can uses the excuse 'sanctions and 'counter sanctions' to build a self-sufficient Russia -and new partners... whilst falling out with neighbours who wont be bullied into choosing the Kremlin over the west.
Ukraine wasn't a nice place under Yanu' and it is in Russia's interest to have 'frozen conflicts' in nations that chose the west - to make such nations PAY for choosing ' the wrong path'.
I never 'get' Russians paranoia about NATO expanding - when it is the fear of being bullied BY Moscow that so often is the spur for wanting to join... Ukraine was non-aligned non nuclear and was driven into wanting to join. 2 years ago NATO membership was just not on Ukrainains' radar ... they mostly saw an opportunity to enjoy the benefits of being close to the former CIS nations AND the EU.
Putin's Russia is the best advert for NATO membership... and that is sad - as I hoped that 1991 might mean an EU with all former Soviet Union members enjoying the benefits of visa free travel and business.
Do I think the west and particularly the US have played this smart ?
No... They mis-read the Kremlin's stance that Ukraine was 'their patch' and would not stop at military involvement to ensure it would not join western clubs.
Yanu' was corrupt and ultimately - despite andrewfi suggesting otherwise - became the Kremlin'stooge and fall guy.
His removal was popular within his party and with most Ukrainians - the Kremlin tried to save him and when they knew he was doomed talked up 'nazis' in a nation that suffered Nazi occupation and were Grand parents suffered horrendous losses - insulting to say the least..
It is so VERY sad to see that Crimea was the catalyst for the uprisings in Donbas and other regions of Ukraine and were positively encouraged by Moscow - who was banning marches by small minorities speaking of more autonomy for Siberia.
It is sad to see families split by the polarisation, death and injuries in a civil war - one sided VERY much supported by the Kremlin - who's involvement is far greater than admitted.
That some might even try to deny this is also sad.
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Like you would know - or believe any evidence to the contrary ...
I prefer first-hand eye-witness reports from people I know and trust over any third party anytime.
So yes, I believe all what I posted is correct. You on the other hand are accusing me of cherrypicking when it is obvious that 90% of the Tatars live in Crimea happily now. You might not believe it, but thats your problem. That you continue harping on about the 10% that are unhappy is -cherry picking-.
And since all the non-Tatars are 100% happy, that makes the total of crimea, happy to be part of Russia.
You'd be happy too, if you and all your friends saw your income double, roads finally being repaired, your language officially recognised as a state-language (it was only ukrainian before the takeover) and many, many, many other boons for Crimea.
* disclaimer: the income doubling is based upon normal tourism, since this year Crimea had only 50% of the usual tourism, incomes stayed more or less the same as pre-2014, whereas pensioners and state-employees actually did see it double.
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I prefer first-hand eye-witness reports from people I know and trust over any third party anytime.
So yes, I believe all what I posted is correct. You on the other hand are accusing me of cherrypicking when it is obvious that 90% of the Tatars live in Crimea happily now. You might not believe it, but thats your problem. That you continue harping on about the 10% that are unhappy is -cherry picking-.
Markje
I SERIOUSLY doubt you have any serious contact with the indigenous population of Crimea - judging by your selective history and stating that Tatars 'agree' that their leaders are 'terrorists'
And since all the non-Tatars are 100% happy, that makes the total of crimea, happy to be part of Russia.
Nonsense - I personally know a native of Kerch - living off Crimea - married to a Ukrainian who could put you straight ..
You'd be happy too, if you and all your friends saw your income double, roads finally being repaired, your language officially recognised as a state-language (it was only ukrainian before the takeover) and many, many, many other boons for Crimea.
I don't dispute some of the benefits you mention for the majority - planted eth. Russians ...
* disclaimer: the income doubling is based upon normal tourism, since this year Crimea had only 50% of the usual tourism, incomes stayed more or less the same as pre-2014, whereas pensioners and state-employees actually did see it double.
You neglected to mention the negatives .. but you get me drift - you are being selective - AGAIN
Once, again - I FULLY understand most are happier - I do NOT agree with the circumstances that led up to the 'referendum' - nor the results - although I readily concede a large majority.
However, military force was used - denied - then admitted.
It is SO ironic to hear you repeatedly dispute the legality of Yanu's removal and turn a blind eye to the military take over of Crimea...
The Kremlin has set 2 dangerous precedents in 2014 - hence the stance of 100 nations and 13 out of 14 of the Permanent Security council - naturally, Russia - being the nation under scrutiny - vetoed this action being binding .... :coffeeread:
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Markje
I SERIOUSLY doubt you have any serious contact with the indigenous population of Crimea - judging by your selective history and stating that Tatars 'agree' that their leaders are 'terrorists'
You can doubt all you want, if you had read the Crimean newspapers, you'd know this to be true. Not my problem. The Tatars rejected their 'exiled' leaders after they realised they were behind the powerlines bombing and preventing kiev from repairing them.
Tatar community quoted in newspaper: Those who hurt us and work against our best interests, are not our leaders.
The Tatars were hit hardest during the power outage, they were the ones who grew hungry during the power-outage, had to stand in food-distribution lines to get warm food and generally were not pleased about the actions of their former leaders. So they were sacked on the spot and new Crimean Tatar leaders were chosen. Ones that live on the peninsula.
Of course, you'd know all of that if you had actual information about Crimea.
Visit Ai-petri sometimes, there's a lovely Tatar village on the top. I did, I got first-hand info there.
And since all the non-Tatars are 100% happy, that makes the total of crimea, happy to be part of Russia.
Nonsense - I personally know a native of Kerch - living off Crimea - married to a Ukrainian who could put you straight ..
Then have em post here. Until then I don't think you do know anyone living in Kerch or anywhere in Crimea, considering that they must be the only one agreeing with your point. The other million Crimeans (Tatars, Russians, whatever) do not.
You'd be happy too, if you and all your friends saw your income double, roads finally being repaired, your language officially recognised as a state-language (it was only ukrainian before the takeover) and many, many, many other boons for Crimea.
I don't dispute some of the benefits you mention for the majority - planted eth. Russians ...
Because Russians speak Tatar regularly, yes? You do know that Tatar is now an official state-language in Crimea :coffeeread:
And of course, its only the Russians that profit from better roads for instance, or the higher pensions that does -not- exclude Tatars.
Wake up man! you're the biased here. You're so hell-bent on trying to prove me wrong, you are not seeing the bigger picture.
* disclaimer: the income doubling is based upon normal tourism, since this year Crimea had only 50% of the usual tourism, incomes stayed more or less the same as pre-2014, whereas pensioners and state-employees actually did see it double.
You neglected to mention the negatives .. but you get me drift - you are being selective - AGAIN
What negatives? Please try to come up with one instead of using a groupword 'negative' without details.
Once, again - I FULLY understand most are happier - I do NOT agree with the circumstances that led up to the 'referendum' - nor the results - although I readily concede a large majority.
Oh why are we arguing then? If there is no doubt the -majority- always wanted to be Russian, why do you keep on insisting Russia is the aggressor here.
It is SO ironic to hear you repeatedly dispute the legality of Yanu's removal and turn a blind eye to the military take over of Crimea...
There has been no military takeover of Crimea... I repeat for the deaf ones: There has been no military take over of Crimea. If there had been, the same situation as Donbass would have been created, Ukraine would have put up a fight. As it stands, they didn't ever respond to their military requesting orders.
The Kremlin has set 2 dangerous precedents in 2014 - hence the stance of 100 nations and 13 out of 14 of the Permanent Security council - naturally, Russia - being the nation under scrutiny - vetoed this action being binding .... :coffeeread:
No, the west did that, when they created Kosovo.
Putin followed that example. he said so himself.
Mark.
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Markje
I SERIOUSLY doubt you have any serious contact with the indigenous population of Crimea - judging by your selective history and stating that Tatars 'agree' that their leaders are 'terrorists'
You can doubt all you want, if you had read the Crimean newspapers, you'd know this to be true. Not my problem. The Tatars rejected their 'exiled' leaders after they realised they were behind the powerlines bombing and preventing kiev from repairing them.
:ROFL:
Markje, If you are suggesting the Crimean newspapers that your M-i-L would read are the basis for 'truth... you are deluded, mate.
And yet..You objected to my pointing out the bogus pretexts for closing down tv stations on Crimea that dared to question the 'new Crimea' , last year on FB .... :coffeeread:
Tatar community quoted in newspaper: Those who hurt us and work against our best interests, are not our leaders.
The Tatars were hit hardest during the power outage, they were the ones who grew hungry during the power-outage, had to stand in food-distribution lines to get warm food and generally were not pleased about the actions of their former leaders. So they were sacked on the spot and new Crimean Tatar leaders were chosen. Ones that live on the peninsula.
Of course, you'd know all of that if you had actual information about Crimea.
Visit Ai-petri sometimes, there's a lovely Tatar village on the top. I did, I got first-hand info there.
Markje,
I've been to the parts of Simferopol -Aqmescit - or White Mosque - as the Tatars call it..not so pretty - as much Tatar land was 'confiscated' by Stalin and given to eth .Russians coming to settle n Crimea
I can also read articles that 'suggest' banned Tatars leaders are now supporters of IS - The media regulation is Crimea is tougher than in Russia - proper. Unwise to rock the boat..
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/crimean-deputy-pm-accuses-tatar-leader-of-recruiting-islamic-state-militants/538377.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/crimean-deputy-pm-accuses-tatar-leader-of-recruiting-islamic-state-militants/538377.html)
And since all the non-Tatars are 100% happy, that makes the total of crimea, happy to be part of Russia.
Markje, you simply confirm your deluded state of mind... people who have been denied the return of their lands by Moscow are unlikely to be ''happy'..Such protests are not new..
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1979&dat=19870801&id=-qE0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=x60FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4333,22834&hl=en (https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1979&dat=19870801&id=-qE0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=x60FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4333,22834&hl=en)
Nonsense - [in the context of 100 percent 'happy'] I personally know a native of Kerch - living off Crimea - married to a Ukrainian who could put you straight ..
Then have em post here. Until then I don't think you do know anyone living in Kerch or anywhere in Crimea, considering that they must be the only one agreeing with your point. The other million Crimeans (Tatars, Russians, whatever) do not.
Markje,
Next time we meet - I will personally show you details of the folks I talk / talked with ..and you can seen for yourself that you are simply incorrect ..:coffeeread:
I will show you her conversation with the lady from Kerch and she apologised - in Russian - as she was watching this documentary - 'just awful' - her words - and she was too upset..
I also talk to a lady from Simferopol - who is / was ecstatic - about events - she owns land and it has shot up in value...so ple-ease understand I hear all 'sides'...
You'd be happy too, if you and all your friends saw your income double, roads finally being repaired, your language officially recognised as a state-language (it was only ukrainian before the takeover) and many, many, many other boons for Crimea.
I don't dispute some of the benefits you mention for the majority - planted eth. Russians ...
Because Russians speak Tatar regularly, yes? You do know that Tatar is now an official state-language in Crimea :coffeeread:
SOME - and so do SOME Ukrainians .and your point is ???
And of course, its only the Russians that profit from better roads for instance, or the higher pensions that does -not- exclude Tatars.
Wake up man! you're the biased here. You're so hell-bent on trying to prove me wrong, you are not seeing the bigger picture.
Markje, Hitler built better roads - but the Jews and other ethnic groups were oppressed. I am NOT saying the 'new' Crimea is anything like that bad - but continually seeing one's leaders being banned from their homeland and not feeling safe to protest means the undoubted improvements there'll be is hardly relevant while others live on your land.
* disclaimer: the income doubling is based upon normal tourism, since this year Crimea had only 50% of the usual tourism, incomes stayed more or less the same as pre-2014, whereas pensioners and state-employees actually did see it double.
You neglected to mention the negatives .. but you get me drift - you are being selective - AGAIN
What negatives? Please try to come up with one instead of using a groupword 'negative' without details.
Essentials WAY up in price.. water and electricity shortages - painful transition of bureaucratic changes... and the 'negatives' for those who prefer to be under Ukrainian control ...
Once, again - I FULLY understand most are happier - I do NOT agree with the circumstances that led up to the 'referendum' - nor the results - although I readily concede a large majority.
Oh why are we arguing then? If there is no doubt the -majority- always wanted to be Russian, why do you keep on insisting Russia is the aggressor here.
The 'clue' was , ''I do NOT agree with the circumstances that led up to the 'referendum''' - Hilter felt it was 'ok' to rescue eth Germans in C'Slovakia - tearing up treaties a defeated Germany had signed.. that led - eventually to a world war..the parallels are scary
You were 'outraged' with what happened in Kiev in Feb - that was the maj of people ridding themselves of a corrupt leader.. you've - repeatedly - told us it was 'illegal' .. did it need an army from a third nation to bring about the subsequent vote that proved the maj. approved and that 'nazis' were a minor factor ?
]
It is SO ironic to hear you repeatedly dispute the legality of Yanu's removal and turn a blind eye to the military take over of Crimea...
There has been no military takeover of Crimea... I repeat for the deaf ones: There has been no military take over of Crimea. If there had been, the same situation as Donbass would have been created, Ukraine would have put up a fight. As it stands, they didn't ever respond to their military requesting orders.
I am not deaf - you're deluded.. who were the LGM who surrounded the UA bases, TV /Radio stns, Masts, govt buildings and the Rada ?..Russian troops who came off their leased bases to militarily occupy their guests territory and create the conditions for a 'bollox' referendum - even the options were a joke - as was the chance for anyone to mount an opposition campaign and not face arrest
That the take-over was welcome by a majority - now believing they were at risk from 'fascists' is a joke.. UA was / is in a position to challenge Moscow's might and never in a million years believed that a Budapest Memorandum signatory would commit such an outrage ..
The Kremlin has set 2 dangerous precedents in 2014 - hence the stance of 100 nations and 13 out of 14 of the Permanent Security council - naturally, Russia - being the nation under scrutiny - vetoed this action being binding .... :coffeeread:
No, the west did that, when they created Kosovo.
Putin followed that example. he said so himself.
Mark.
1/ you dodged the votes - AGAIN - and it's numbers for the Ukraine resolution - as so many pro Kremlin supporters do ..misunderstanding how damaging this is for Russia - the lack of trust.
2/ 'Kosovo' was QUITE different .. Milosovic had a record for creating situations were minorities were eth. cleansed ..and it was happening - again - in 'Kosovo'. Has the west given 'Kosovans' passports of their nation [i.e. USA, German, etc.,- as Russia has done in 'Abkhazia' / 'S.Ossetia' ?
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Russian-backed militants seize young women as sex trafficking business grows
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russian-backed-militants-seize-young-women-as-sex-trafficking-business-grows-565174.html
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Russian-backed militants seize young women as sex trafficking business grows
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russian-backed-militants-seize-young-women-as-sex-trafficking-business-grows-565174.html
Given the relative geographical disposition of the LPR/DPR and rump Ukraine this reads as projection of a rump Ukraine reality, one that we already know to exist, rather than anything happening in LPR/DPR. That's not to say that there has never been a case of forced trafficking within the boundaries of the enclave, but that as a thing it seems rather unlikely.
Empirically, it seems that trafficking is on the increase from rump Ukraine - there's plenty of evidence of men and women seeking to leave Ukraine by any necessary means and with difficulty. Moving from the LPR/DPR to Russia is very easy indeed.
Just one more story in the very necessary, for Ukraine, process of demonising the people and states of the LPR/DPR enclave.
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Alexei Bayer: Why is Putin’s propaganda successful?
https://www.Kievpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/alexei-bayer-why-is-putins-propaganda-successful-407511.html
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Russian military involved in looting in Donbas - Ukrainian intelligence
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russian-military-involved-in-looting-in-donbas-ukrainian-intelligence-586381.html
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Russia deploys military equipment and special forces to Donbas - Ukraine intel
http://uatoday.tv/news/russia-deploys-military-equipment-and-special-forces-to-donbas-ukraine-intel-602791.html
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Even if this were true, it's a small amount compared to what the United states is giving to Ukraine
Russia allocates almost USD 12 mln to support militants in Ukraine's Donbas
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-allocates-almost-usd-12-mln-to-support-militants-in-ukraine-s-donbas-627966.html
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Remember, that's a lot to a Ukrainian who is working on a salary of two potatoes a day and a jar of borscht as a bonus.
Reminiscent of Dr Evil in Austin Powers who ransoms the world for a tiny amount of money because he is so out of touch with the value of money due to his imprisonment.
However, on a more normal theme, this is, again, a case of the invisible Russian invasion with invisible Russian troops and materiel.
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Two years there have been accusations of Russian troops in Ukraine, still 7000 strong, yet there's no real proof.
It will take years to settle Donbas conflict: Ukraine's Defence Minister
http://uatoday.tv/politics/it-will-take-years-to-settle-donbas-conflict-ukraine-s-defence-minister-635243.html
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Novorossiya Funeral: Why Putin abandoned the idea to seize Ukraine's east and south?
http://uatoday.tv/politics/novorossiya-funeral-why-putin-abandoned-the-idea-to-seize-ukraine-s-east-and-south-636737.html
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Bloomberg: Crimea bridge as monument to Putin's Soviet revival project
http://uatoday.tv/politics/bloomberg-crimea-bridge-as-monument-to-putin-s-soviet-revival-project-636674.html
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Sweden wants answers from Russia after Lavrov's threats
http://uatoday.tv/politics/sweden-wants-answers-from-russia-after-lavrov-s-threats-640790.html
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Wonder how they determined that?
Russia is recognized as politically unstable country - International Monetary Fund
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-is-a-recognized-as-politically-unstable-country-international-monetary-fund-644376.html
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Wonder how they managed to hide everything, if it's coming in by the train loads?
More Russian tanks arrive in eastern Ukraine
http://uatoday.tv/politics/more-russian-tanks-arrive-in-eastern-ukraine-643596.html
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Wonder how they determined that?
Russia is recognized as politically unstable country - International Monetary Fund
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-is-a-recognized-as-politically-unstable-country-international-monetary-fund-644376.html
The same article also indicates Moldavia, Belarus and Ukraine are on the same list. There is no bench marks, but I think Russia is FAR more stable that the other three. But my knowledge is limited to Ukraine and Russia.
Lets give Andrew about six hours to come up with some comments.
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It's really an oddity, no one ever thinks to snap a few photos when this happens.
Intel reports another Russian train convoy with military hardware in Ukraine
http://uatoday.tv/politics/intel-reports-another-russian-train-convoy-with-military-hardware-in-ukraine-645225.html
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Also mentioned Russia sends weapons and ammo by trains. Ukraine intel used drones to get the information, but again no quality photos or video to back up the claims.
Seven Russian soldiers killed in Donbas - Ukrainian intel
http://uatoday.tv/news/seven-russian-soldiers-killed-in-donbas-ukrainian-intel-661591.html
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Here we go, the beginning of the new USSR
Ex-militant leader launches movement on 'Ukraine and Belarus returning to Russia
http://uatoday.tv/politics/ex-militant-leader-launches-movement-on-ukraine-and-belarus-returning-to-russia-663659.html
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Russian troops preparing offensive to create land corridor to Crimea - NSDC
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-troops-preparing-offensive-to-create-land-corridor-to-crimea-nsdc-664228.html
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Russian troops preparing offensive to create land corridor to Crimea - NSDC
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-troops-preparing-offensive-to-create-land-corridor-to-crimea-nsdc-664228.html
You'd think that with a functional (in all aspects) land-bridge already present in the form of a bridge nearing completion, this kind of stories would die out.
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Russian troops preparing offensive to create land corridor to Crimea - NSDC
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-troops-preparing-offensive-to-create-land-corridor-to-crimea-nsdc-664228.html
You'd think that with a functional (in all aspects) land-bridge already present in the form of a bridge nearing completion, this kind of stories would die out.
Recall, such stories are not about thought, not about analysis, not about objectivity. These stories are about emotion, about fear, about 'feelz'.
To that end a story only has to be plausible to the deliberately uninformed.
Here's the thing, we are going to have a war, it WILL be instigated by the US (unless there is a way to derail the current powers that see war as being worthwhile and winnable) and for the gambit to have necessary support from the people who will suffer (us, we the people) then we must see the enemy as depersonalised evil, filled with evil intent, baby eaters; we must feel sufficiently threatened that we will support the killing of others who have done no wrong.
This kind of story is just a brick in a wall, pushing fear buttons.
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Crimea's new bridge testing winds....
(http://most.life/media/images/DSC_2389.2e16d0ba.fill-790x530.jpg)
Overkill??? whahahahaha
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Nothing like real journalism. (:)
Kremlin retreats on financing 'Donbas project'
http://uatoday.tv/politics/kremlin-retreats-on-financing-donbas-project-669266.html
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Soloshenko: "I met Russian army officers imprisoned for supporting Ukraine"
http://uatoday.tv/politics/soloshenko-i-met-russian-army-officers-imprisoned-for-supporting-ukraine-675212.html
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Russia preparing for future confrontation with Western powers – Ukraine Intel
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-preparing-for-future-confrontation-with-western-powers-ukraine-intel-676919.html
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Russia expected to step back from Ukraine after NATO's Warsaw summit: Polish Defence Minister
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-expected-to-step-back-from-ukraine-after-nato-s-warsaw-summit-polish-defence-minister-684734.html
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Poroshenko is quite the talker. :chuckle:
(Quote)
"In last year alone, we prevented 300 terrorist attacks in Ukraine, which had been plotted by the Russian Federation,
"Russia trains terrorists in special centers for attacks on Ukrainian soil - Poroshenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-trains-terrorists-in-special-centers-for-attacks-on-ukrainian-soil-poroshenko-685219.html
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After numerous losses, Russian officer in charged of operation killed in donbas.
http://uatoday.tv/politics/militants-kill-russian-regular-officer-in-donbas-686539.html
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I've not seen any real progress from the Ukrainian side in fulfilling its part of the Minsk agreement. To make progress there has to be efforts from both sides.
Sanctions great motivation for Russia to fulfill Minsk accords – Poroshenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/sanctions-great-motivation-for-russia-to-fulfill-minsk-accords-poroshenko-686209.html
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Given that the Ukrainian government has made it explicitly clear that they have no intention of fulfilling their part of the agreement it is, as always, a tad rich to see such posturing from Poroshenko. One wonders how he manages to reconcile that which he knows with that which he says.
We shouldn't forget that Russia is not a party to the Minsk agreement except, as with France and Germany, as an intermediary. There is nothing that Russia can do to comply with a document that does not have action points for the Russian Federation.
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Given that the Ukrainian government has made it explicitly clear that they have no intention of fulfilling their part of the agreement it is, as always, a tad rich to see such posturing from Poroshenko. One wonders how he manages to reconcile that which he knows with that which he says.
We shouldn't forget that Russia is not a party to the Minsk agreement except, as with France and Germany, as an intermediary. There is nothing that Russia can do to comply with a document that does not have action points for the Russian Federation.
There's hundreds of thousands of people across Europe that have been directly effected by these sanctions. Perhaps Poroshenko fails to take this into consideration while Ukraine tries to find a place within the EU.
By dragging their feet, and prolonging the conflict they will lose support along the way.
Yes Russia is just a mediator, and prolonging sanctions in an effort to get results is flawed logic.
Unless Ukraine is willing to take the initiative to work towards a mutual agreement, they show they're not team players,and are not ready to be rewarded with visa free travel, or billions in handouts by the west.
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Given that the Ukrainian government has made it explicitly clear that they have no intention of fulfilling their part of the agreement it is, as always, a tad rich to see such posturing from Poroshenko. One wonders how he manages to reconcile that which he knows with that which he says.
We shouldn't forget that Russia is not a party to the Minsk agreement except, as with France and Germany, as an intermediary. There is nothing that Russia can do to comply with a document that does not have action points for the Russian Federation.
Russia has made is very clear that is also has no plans to comply with the Minsk agreement neither. You have explained to this forum many time these sanctions are not hurting Russia so why are you concern?
Remember the part of Minsk requires Russia to return control of it border with the Ukraine to the Ukraine not the LPR. Not going to happen. Russia is suppose to stop all aid to DPR and LPR not going to happen neither.
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Texan77,
Before you go making a fool of yourself you might want to go read the Minsk agreement. If you do, because obviously right now you have not got the faintest idea what you are going on about, you will learn that the border control is currently under the control of the LPR/DPR. It is they who will, after Kiev has withdrawn weaponry from the agreed border areas, conducted with the LPR/DPR elections, passed legislation giving autonomy to the region and made it clear that no Ukrainians involved in the defence of the LPR/DPR will suffer legal sanction then the border crossings will once again be manned by Ukrainian staff. As at this time none of these prerequisites, among others, have been implemented and the president has made it clear that they will not be so.
Secondly there is no exhortation against providing humanitarian aid to the area from Russia.
Of course, I might be wrong, but then you can show us all that I am, by reference to the Minsk Agreement, yes?
Where do you folks get these fairy tales? Has your girlfriend with the Pravy Sektor sympathies been telling you stuff again?
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Given that the Ukrainian government has made it explicitly clear that they have no intention of fulfilling their part of the agreement it is, as always, a tad rich to see such posturing from Poroshenko. One wonders how he manages to reconcile that which he knows with that which he says.
We shouldn't forget that Russia is not a party to the Minsk agreement except, as with France and Germany, as an intermediary. There is nothing that Russia can do to comply with a document that does not have action points for the Russian Federation.
Russia could seal the border, put the area off limits to all vacationing soldiers, pull back all advisers and forbid the exportation of any military uniforms, and such. He could also just tell them firmly to quit it.
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Russia illegally explores natural resources in Ukraine's marine economic zone
http://uatoday.tv/business/russia-continues-to-explore-natural-resources-in-ukraine-s-marine-economic-zone-698306.html
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Bagalia, you might want to go do some learning to see just what is going on at the border. By that I don't mean reading your favoured Ukrainian sources. :)
However, there is no part of the Minsk Agreement that requires action by Russia. Go read the thing, it is obvious you have not got the faintest idea about the subject. CLICK HERE! (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,25857.msg445853.html#msg445853)
Remember an opinion without factual support is worthless.
Given the statements by Poroshenko and his government it is clear that there is nothing that any other party can do that will forward the progress. The onus is upon Kiev to take action that they refuse to do. Read the agreement and you will understand.
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Bagalia, you might want to go do some learning to see just what is going on at the border. By that I don't mean reading your favoured Ukrainian sources. :)
However, there is no part of the Minsk Agreement that requires action by Russia. Go read the thing, it is obvious you have not got the faintest idea about the subject. CLICK HERE! (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,25857.msg445853.html#msg445853)
Remember an opinion without factual support is worthless.
Given the statements by Poroshenko and his government it is clear that there is nothing that any other party can do that will forward the progress. The onus is upon Kiev to take action that they refuse to do. Read the agreement and you will understand.
Andrew, you might want to go do some learning to see just what is going on in the world. By that I don't mean reading your favoured Russian sources. :)
"There is nothing that Russia can do to comply with a document that does not have action points for the Russian Federation."
You stated that Russia could not possibly do anything. Russia can do quite a lot if it wished. It does not need to be a part of the process. Aside from the points I mentioned Russia can put a lot of pressure on that area and stop the killing probably immediately.
Russia has no problem reminding the world it is a nuclear power. It can just as easily tell Dunbas to give it up. Dunbas will listen. War will stop, killing stop. Peaceful talks can follow. I think you grossly underestimate Russian influence in that part of the world or just wish to ignore it in this instance.
If stopping injustice towards Russian speaking peoples is top of the list then stopping the war should be at the top but it appears that keeping a conflict alive is worth more to them.
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Texan77,
Before you go making a fool of yourself you might want to go read the Minsk agreement. If you do, because obviously right now you have not got the faintest idea what you are going on about, you will learn that the border control is currently under the control of the LPR/DPR. It is they who will, after Kiev has withdrawn weaponry from the agreed border areas, conducted with the LPR/DPR elections, passed legislation giving autonomy to the region and made it clear that no Ukrainians involved in the defence of the LPR/DPR will suffer legal sanction then the border crossings will once again be manned by Ukrainian staff. As at this time none of these prerequisites, among others, have been implemented and the president has made it clear that they will not be so.
Secondly there is no exhortation against providing humanitarian aid to the area from Russia.
Of course, I might be wrong, but then you can show us all that I am, by reference to the Minsk Agreement, yes?
Where do you folks get these fairy tales? Has your girlfriend with the Pravy Sektor sympathies been telling you stuff again?
1. Copies out of Minsk agreement: Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism.
Russia sends aid without international mechanism. This is violation of the agreement.
2. Copied out of Minsk agreement: Restore full control over the state border by Ukrainian
Government in the whole conflict zone,
Russia is not going let this happened.
This is what I made note of. Maybe you should ready the agreement so you do not make a fool of yourself.
Copied out of Minsk Agreement: restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian
Do you think Kiev is able to collect taxes in Donbas? Hey as long as they are shooting with Russia weapons they is no chance.
Copied out of Minsk Agreement: With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions.
How is this going to be done? The currency in Donbas is the Russian Ruble.
Copied from Minsk agreement: Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with the new Constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralization
Kiev will never get the votes to amend the constitution to ever pass this.
This agreement is heavy flawed because Russia would never agree it was a part of the conflict. Therefore they would not have to do anything. But in reality the government in Dombas is completely control by Russia while the government in Kiev has no control over the area. So this area in fact has been annexed by Russia and that makes Russia responsible for all the agreement.
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Andrew, unless you again want to look silly, Tex is pointing out valid reasons why Russia is not holding to 'its' end of the Minsk accords.
I suspect the Kremlin expects another roll over like in Moldova. But the Kremlin has gone one bridge to far. The push back from the west on every level will continue.
More important though is restitance from the citizens of Ukraine to Russia aggression. Simply said they do not want an association with Moscow. As a simple point before there was a captured military vehicles in the Victory Park in Kiev now perhaps a half dozen. Children find these the most popular to climb around on.
NB: Taxan does your computer have a grammar check? I am not saying mine is flawless but yours could use some improvement.
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Texan,
You are getting the parties mixed up, I will comment on them in RED to avoid hundreds of seperate quote blocks.
Texan77,
Before you go making a fool of yourself you might want to go read the Minsk agreement. If you do, because obviously right now you have not got the faintest idea what you are going on about, you will learn that the border control is currently under the control of the LPR/DPR. It is they who will, after Kiev has withdrawn weaponry from the agreed border areas, conducted with the LPR/DPR elections, passed legislation giving autonomy to the region and made it clear that no Ukrainians involved in the defence of the LPR/DPR will suffer legal sanction then the border crossings will once again be manned by Ukrainian staff. As at this time none of these prerequisites, among others, have been implemented and the president has made it clear that they will not be so.
Secondly there is no exhortation against providing humanitarian aid to the area from Russia.
Of course, I might be wrong, but then you can show us all that I am, by reference to the Minsk Agreement, yes?
Where do you folks get these fairy tales? Has your girlfriend with the Pravy Sektor sympathies been telling you stuff again?
1. Copies out of Minsk agreement: Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism.
Russia sends aid without international mechanism. This is violation of the agreement.
Sending aid is never a problem, if it really is aid. Without Russian aid, many more -civilians- would be dead now from famine, disease, etc.
2. Copied out of Minsk agreement: Restore full control over the state border by Ukrainian
Government in the whole conflict zone,Russia is not going let this happened.
Out of Russia's control. Ukraine has to take their side of the border themselves. Russia controls only the Russian side of the border. The seperatists control the Ukrainian side, so Ukraine must win those borders back from them.
This is what I made note of. Maybe you should ready the agreement so you do not make a fool of yourself.
Right now, andrew isn't yet a fool though, see comments
Copied out of Minsk Agreement: restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian
Do you think Kiev is able to collect taxes in Donbas? Hey as long as they are shooting with Russia weapons they is no chance.
Nobody is paying taxes in Ukraine :ROFL: its why they are so broke gov't wise speaking. The little taxes that do get paid end up straight in Poroshenko's pocket, same as the person before him. This would also be one of the very last items to be restored, when more urgent things have been done.
Copied out of Minsk Agreement: With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions.
How is this going to be done? The currency in Donbas is the Russian Ruble.
The rouble is mearly a convenient coin, already present before the conflict. They could be using I-O-U's or even invent their own money. Since Ukrainian banks have withdrawn from the donbass, thats why Grivna isn't being used anymore. This is factually upon Ukraine to force the Ukrainian banks to open again in the conflict zone. Again, Russia hasn't got tasks here.
Copied from Minsk agreement: Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with the new Constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralization
Kiev will never get the votes to amend the constitution to ever pass this.
Ah so this one you admit is upon Ukraine, but now all of the sudden excuses, excuses whilst this is actually one of the more pressing points!
This agreement is heavy flawed because Russia would never agree it was a part of the conflict. Therefore they would not have to do anything. But in reality the government in Dombas is completely control by Russia while the government in Kiev has no control over the area. So this area in fact has been annexed by Russia and that makes Russia responsible for all the agreement.
I'll leave it to others to point out the other more glaring problems you seem to ignore happily.
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Andrew, unless you again want to look silly, Tex is pointing out valid reasons why Russia is not holding to 'its' end of the Minsk accords.
No he's not, he tries to desperately put the points in Moscow's hands, but failing badly.
For instance, the border problem. How on earth should Russia give control to Ukraine from the seperatists. If Putin allows Ukrainian troups to lay siege to the border from the Russian side, This war will spill over into Russia since the seperatists aren't going to roll over and give up. Ukraine must be pressing from the North (kharkov) and the south (mariupol) along the border lines and secure their positions. However, that would also violate the minsk agreement of no-more-fighting.
Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place and it is not going to get better. Minsk will fail without Russia's sabotage or lack thereof.
I suspect the Kremlin expects another roll over like in Moldova. But the Kremlin has gone one bridge to far. The push back from the west on every level will continue.
The push is getting weaker and weaker. Sanctions have been renewed, but already not for a year but only 6 months. And next time who knows if they will get renewed. Meanwhile the effect of sanctions are lessening because Russia finds alternate trade routes and Russian-made produce is increasing in both quantity and quality.
More important though is restitance from the citizens of Ukraine to Russia aggression. Simply said they do not want an association with Moscow. As a simple point before there was a captured military vehicles in the Victory Park in Kiev now perhaps a half dozen. Children find these the most popular to climb around on.
You're speaking only for the west-side of the country. Ukraine always has been and always will be, a country with 2 faces. One pro-european, one pro-russian.
Once the propaganda dies down and the conflict with Russia is solved, it will become such again.
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Texan77and Avhdb, I simply don't have the will to deal with your choice to not read. Mark is way more patient than I. However one point stood out and I will as an example refer to it.
Texan77 mentioned the border. Markje gave a clear explanation of the practical issues, issues which had obviously been considered when wording the agreement. Texan77 takes the point out of context and, apart from not understanding who mans the border crossings in Ukraine, does not understand that control of the Ukrainian border will pass from the lpr/dp only when enabling action has been taken by the Kievan regime. That required action serves to protect the inhabitants of the lpr/dpr. The Kievan regime has been clear that the required process and actions will not take place. The passage of time underscores the practical truth of the Kievan regime's intentions.
Please, go read the document to which I linked. Don't just scan it for a word or phrase that serves your incomprehending and prejudiced purposes.
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Time and time again intel reports of Russian military, but no one ever thinks to take photos. If they're able to count how many soldiers were in the vehicles then photos should accompany the report.
Intel: 110 Russian soldiers arrive in Donbas
http://uatoday.tv/news/intel-110-russian-soldiers-arrive-in-donbas-703396.html
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Gotta chuckle over this one.
Ukraine Today: Putin underestimated Ukrainians, Pyatt says in final speech
https://www.Kievpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/ukraine-today-putin-underestimated-ukrainians-pyatt-says-in-final-speech-421219.html
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Ukrainian media, really lacks when giving information to verify the story.
Dozens of Russian citizens are prosecuted for waging war against Ukraine – Lutsenko
http://uatoday.tv/crime/dozens-of-russian-citizens-are-prosecuted-for-waging-war-against-ukraine-lutsenko-732027.html
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Wouldn't Ukraine be spying on Russia in order to find this out?
These systems after all are within the Russian border.
Russian spying equipment spotted operating close to Ukrainian border
http://uatoday.tv/news/russian-spy-equipment-spotted-operating-close-to-ukrainian-border-732012.html
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Tom, that's a case of their spies and our counter intelligence or our brave freedom fighters and their cowardly terrorists.
Yes, of course, the Ukraine is saying on Russian activity but that's a good thing - for the Ukrainian propaganda meisters.
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You have to wonder why the Ukrainian media wants Ukrainians to live in fear of a Russian attack?
Russia ordered to 'kill the Minsk agreements' – Ukrainian intelligence
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russia-ordered-to-shoot-the-minsk-agreements-ukrainian-intelligence-734527.html
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According to Ukrainian media, Russia has troops stationed in Donbas, but the OSCE has not said anything about it.
100,000 Russian troops stationed in Crimea, Donbas and around Ukraine - Kiev
http://uatoday.tv/news/100-000-russian-troops-stationed-in-crimean-donbas-and-around-ukraine-Kiev-737262.html
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According to Ukrainian media, Russia has troops stationed in Donbas, but the OSCE has not said anything about it.
100,000 Russian troops stationed in Crimea, Donbas and around Ukraine - Kiev
http://uatoday.tv/news/100-000-russian-troops-stationed-in-crimean-donbas-and-around-ukraine-Kiev-737262.html
Crimea: Well, it has over 50.000 on any average day, so half those are accounted for.
If the Russian army was anywhere near Kiev on Ukrainian soil, the world would know about it in full-HD video with no seconds to spare. My guess is, they are north on Russian soil also.
Which leaves donbass. Still no proof.
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According to Ukrainian media, Russia has troops stationed in Donbas, but the OSCE has not said anything about it.
100,000 Russian troops stationed in Crimea, Donbas and around Ukraine - Kiev
http://uatoday.tv/news/100-000-russian-troops-stationed-in-crimean-donbas-and-around-ukraine-Kiev-737262.html
Crimea: Well, it has over 50.000 on any average day, so half those are accounted for.
If the Russian army was anywhere near Kiev on Ukrainian soil, the world would know about it in full-HD video with no seconds to spare. My guess is, they are north on Russian soil also.
Which leaves donbass. Still no proof.
In Kiev at the Great Patriotic War Park are as I recall are a number of captured vehicles from the fighting that came from Russia. There was also a fair bit of footage of Russian soldiers fighting for the airport in Donetsk.
More telling are the large number of burials of Russian soldiers who did not die during service with the parents told not to speak about there sons death.
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In Kiev at the Great Patriotic War Park are as I recall are a number of captured vehicles from the fighting that came from Russia.
So? Russia sells those to the highest bidder. Have been for ages.
They could also have come from captured or defected Ukrainian military.
There's not a shred of proof there that they came from the Russian army, or everyone would have said: Finally the proof we have been waiting for. Now we can officially declare war on Russia.
There was also a fair bit of footage of Russian soldiers fighting for the airport in Donetsk.
There's not a shred of proof there that they came from the Russian army, or everyone would have said: Finally the proof we have been waiting for. Now we can officially declare war on Russia.
More telling are the large number of burials of Russian soldiers who did not die during service with the parents told not to speak about their sons death.
This might be the only proof, except Russia at the time claimed 'training accidents' and other 'covert operations'.
Although I agree with you that there probably are Russki soldiers in Donbass, they are not there with the governments flag flying (officially).
The many pictures I see of donbass would sicken you to the stomach, those are dead, and not soldiers, children mostly. All with the same message spraypainted on cardboard. Please kiev, stop killing us.
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Donbas militants have more tanks and artillery than German army - President Poroshenko
http://uatoday.tv/politics/donbass-militants-have-more-tanks-and-artillery-than-german-army-president-poroshenko-786196.html
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This article tries to use the OSCE, to make its claims legitimate, but the official website for the OSCE mentioned nothing.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2016/11/18/russia_infiltrates_30000_persons_clad_in_military_uniforms_into_donbas__osce_993439
Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports
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This article tries to use the OSCE, to make its claims legitimate, but the official website for the OSCE mentioned nothing.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2016/11/18/russia_infiltrates_30000_persons_clad_in_military_uniforms_into_donbas__osce_993439
Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports
..and it the REAL world, TC..
2 out 11 border posts - not under Kiev control -can be regularly monitored..
https://osce.usmission.gov/response-chief-observer-observer-mission-russian-border-checkpoints-gukovo-donetsk-statement-pc/ (https://osce.usmission.gov/response-chief-observer-observer-mission-russian-border-checkpoints-gukovo-donetsk-statement-pc/)
quote:
In signing the September 2014 Minsk Protocol, the Russian Federation committed to “ensure the permanent monitoring of the Ukrainian-Russian border and verification by the OSCE,” yet Russia has consistently rejected its obligation to expand the geographic scope of the OSCE Observer Mission at Gukovo and Donetsk. This Mission remains limited to two out of eleven checkpoints on the border between Russia and separatist-held parts of Ukraine, despite the strong support of most participating States to expand the geographic scope of the mission. Russia’s claim that the Observer Mission is a “goodwill gesture” and not one of its Minsk commitments is entirely false, as is the myth that the OSCE’s border monitoring is in any way adequate. It is not.
or..
The reality is that the OSCE is barely present on the Ukrainian side of its internationally-recognized border with Russia. Since October 31, when the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine first began reporting the amount of time it spends at the border, the SMM has been present at the border less than one tenth of one percent of the time. The SMM is not even able to visit, on average, more than a single border crossing per day. And, when the SMM arrives at a checkpoint, it stays on average only 33 minutes – and only during daylight. Because it takes SMM patrols more than three hours to drive to the border, monitors must drive past numerous separatist checkpoints, giving combined Russian-separatist forces plenty of time to ensure there is nothing of consequence for the SMM to see once it arrives at the Ukrainian border with Russia.
On the Russian side of the border, Russia has refused to enable the Observer Mission to fully discharge its mandate.
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The United States hints at that Ukraine should give up with Crimea for Donbass
http://en.sobytiya.info/the-united-states-hints-at-that-ukraine-should-give-up-with-crimea-for-donbass.html
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..and it the REAL world, TC..
...snip....
So you're arguing, that because noone could be seen they weren't seen and therefore exist.
Strange REAL world you live in.
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So you're arguing, that because noone could be seen they weren't seen and therefore exist.
Strange REAL world you live in.
The 'real world' as in stuff we are not allowed to discuss here - less it upsets the sponsors
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So you're arguing, that because noone could be seen they weren't seen and therefore exist.
Strange REAL world you live in.
The 'real world' as in stuff we are not allowed to discuss here - less it upsets the sponsors
Yeah, LoveMe, UkraineDate and Cute Only are really worried about your Jackanory tales. (:)
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Mass arrests?
Russian riot police conduct mass arrests in Crimea (photos)
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russian-riot-police-conduct-mass-arrests-in-crimea-photos-847883.html
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Mass arrests?
Russian riot police conduct mass arrests in Crimea (photos)
http://uatoday.tv/crime/russian-riot-police-conduct-mass-arrests-in-crimea-photos-847883.html
Propaganda indeed. Those pics are from Charkov... I know, I've been there.
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Setting aside, for a moment, the fake pics, but since when was 5 people being picked up for documentation issues 'mass arrests'?
Doesn't anyone but me get vexed by the dishonest use of language, by the perversion of meaning done to mislead the reader?
I, in common with most who will read this pitiful piece of piss poor propagandistic prose, have no way to know about the provenance of the pics purported to portray innocent people picked up by the police but I knew the piece was dishonest as soon as I read that the arrests numbered just 5. Assuming that the basics of the piece such as place and time were accurate I would have been surprised that so few were picked up for having defective ID.
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Russia to step up controls over Ukrainians traveling to Crimea
https://www.Kievpost.com/ukraine-politics/russia-step-controls-ukrainians-traveling-crimea.html
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Conquer and steal: Russian expert reveals plans of taking Ukraine
http://uatoday.tv/politics/conquer-and-steal-russian-expert-reveals-plans-of-taking-ukraine-850563.html
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Ukraine Today has to say goodbye!
http://uatoday.tv/society/ukraine-today-has-to-say-goodbye-854168.html
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Ukraine Today has to say goodbye!
http://uatoday.tv/society/ukraine-today-has-to-say-goodbye-854168.html
Not enough money in fake news it would seem.
Sadly, over the course of the past couple of years too few people understood that the stated purpose of Ukraine Today was the dissemination of propaganda and fake news in alignment with the policies of its proprietors.
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Russian opposition activist's report: Putin interested in Ukraine plunged into chaos Read more on UNIAN:
http://www.unian.info/war/1716401-russian-opposition-activists-report-putin-interested-in-ukraine-plunged-into-chaos.html
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Halya Coynash is a member of the Kharkov Human Rights Protection Group.
OPINION
PUTIN’S BRIDGE TO CRIMEA IS DOOMED TO COLLAPSE
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-bridge-crimea-doomed-collapse-541578