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Information & Chat => Adventure Stories & Travel Reports => The Train Wreck Room => Topic started by: VSSKI on May 23, 2011, 09:40:53 AM

Title: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 23, 2011, 09:40:53 AM
I'm new here and just joined today (see my introduction), but am not completely inexperienced. Actually I'm currently in Odessa on my second trip to Ukraine and now having read so much on this forum feel that at least I know a few things not to do, like what I want to report about from my first trip to Ukraine this past February.

But maybe a few things about myself first so people can put my story into context. I'm 46 years old, originally from Germany, but have literally lived and traveled all over the world and for the last 16 years resided in several places in the US, although it's my goal to relocate back to Europe before the end of this year.
I have been in serious relationships only during my life, but because of my travel they have been with women from different cultures, German, Spain, Japan, Columbia, US and Costa Rica. I have never been married though and have no kids.
I consider myself of average looks (no Brad Pitt but no Quasimodo either), am 182 tall, slim, athletic but not muscular figure, and usually have no problems dating - other than being very picky and selective and definitely not the classroom clown type, although usually good at conversations with both sexes.
After ending a long term six year relationship last year, I decided to widen the dating pool and look outside the US. Having been exposed at a film festival to the movie "A Foreign Affair" I remembered the Russian dating sites and starting thinking this might make for an interesting experiment. Google it AWEB come up as the first one and while I looked at several others, the flashy pictures got the better of me (or should I say my little head  :)). That and of course I had heard about the scamming issues, and some of the other website didn't quite look right (as I find out through reading on these pages I wasn't alltogether wrong).
So I enrolled, put up my profile and within a week I would get 7 letters a day - talking about an ego boost. You can say about AWEB what you want but they are great at marketing and understanding a men's psychology - I will post a separate topic under agencies and share my experiences which are somewhat different than what I read here - maybe they are getting even smarter these days.
While I like the eye candy as much as the next guy I knew from personal experience that hanging out with a 19 year old even if she is genuine doesn't work for me long term so I focused on the 30+ crowd and after weeding through some profiles and reading many of the obvious form letters (not knowing at the time that they were sometimes sent without a woman's knowledge) I honed in on 3 ladies that all seemed interesting and started a regular correspondence with all 3. After initial letters I also managed to regularly chat with two of them. Of course it never dawned on me they may not be real, but as it turned out that wasn't actually the issue.
One of the two also had video chat and I giving the interactions there was no doubt it was live.
And here is where it gets interesting and I would love the forum's opinion whether I ended up meeting a pro-dater or simply stumbled over some key cultural differences.
After having communicated for a good 3 months through letters and chat, she (30 years old from Nikolayev) suggested that I should give her call so she can give me her personal contact info and we wouldn't have to go through the agency much longer - dahh - it never dawned on me to do that).
So I did and from there on other than the occasional video chat everything went directly through email and phone. She then asked me if I wanted to visit her and I said yes, that would be nice, so we fixed a long weekend in February that would work for both us. The only request she had was that I would really come for her and not try to date 3 other women while being there. She did say if things don't work out you can always go and meet some other girls then. She told me some horror stories of previous dates and it all made sense to me so I promised and kept my promise.
When looking at flights and transportation I quickly realized that getting to Nikolayev is not the fastest and so I asked her advice of how to best get there. She said not to bother given we only have a long weekend and to meet in Kiev instead. She even suggested that she could help me with getting an apartment given that she is a realtor.
I said not to worry and I would just get a hotel and promptly proceeded courtesy of frequent traveler points to book 2 rooms in one of the biggest luxury hotels in Kiev, one for me and one for her and her interpreter. Guys, I don't know much, but no matter how much you like a woman never ever do that.
So thinking we are all set shortly before the big weekend approaches I get a message from her telling me that her interpreter needed to talk to me. Turns out since they needed to come all the way from Nikolayev and that's not all that cheap, they needed money for the transport, which I was told was $400. Immediately several red flags went up, as I was warned never to send money and the amount seemed very steep. But it was 3 days before my flight, I was busy at work and really didn't have time to now suddenly change everything around. So I took the risk and did send the money having a terrible feeling about this.
Well the big weekend arrives, I got there a day before her and low and behold she actually does show up - and telling me that she had to scream at the taxi driver as that morning a snow storm hit Nikolayev and he didn't want to drive them. It is the women from the photos and video chat and the first thing she does is give me a present (I thought it was supposed to work the other way round). It was a bottle of vodka in a special ceramic souvenir bottle - I know nothing about vodka but as I found out later it apparently is a premium brand that isn't exactly cheap for Ukrainians.
I had brought her a special present as well that she was completely over the moon with and so we proceeded on our first date. She knew I like fish so we proceeded to what must be one of the most expensive fish restaurants in Kiev and the bill at the end was no dime less than at the restaurants I dine at at home.
Being typically shy and reserved on first dates, we made nice conversation but I kept at a safe distance and even though she seemed attracted to me I wasn't going to hold her hand this early in the game.
The same pretty much happened on day two only that now it was one of the most expensive Italian restaurants in town followed after a city tour with an English guide. The difference being that she now asked if she can put her arm under mine (to help her walk the icy streets) and hold my hand. Reluctantly I agreed. It was on day 2 that we started talking about the website, the whole agency models and to my surprise both she and her interpreter told me what was going on behind the scenes at some of these agencies, i.e. letters being sent without girl's knowledge.
I showed them what the website looks from a man's perspective, something they had never seen and got a kick out of. It was at this stage that she really started to get affective and I quickly excused myself as I was not comfortable.
OK, at this point I should say that I pretty much had made up my mind that she was not for me and being overly polite as I foolishly am sometimes I wanted to salvage the weekend and not say anything, but of course she sensed something was wrong.
I had told her that I liked musicals and theater, so that evening she arranged to go to a musical for us. She put on her best evening dress and off we went. During the whole performance she was moping in her chair - I assume now because I wasn't getting close to her.
Finally Day 4 comes along and since it was cold and not much to do, I, please not I, not her, made the suggestion to go to a shopping mall, one of the big underground ones. So off we go and on the way I see a cute little Russian restaurant - she wasn't too thrilled but went along and for the first time it turned out to be cheap meal.
And then the actual shopping proceeded. She wanted to go to the Armani store, as supposedly she had a ten percent discount card that she got from someone. While in the store the interpreter asks me if it would be OK for me to buy her a pair of jeans as a present and I said of course and actually my intention was to buy her a nice gift even though at this stage I knew this wasn't working for me.
Seeing the price tag at the cashier gave me a bit of a sticker shock even though I knew that designer clothes would be substantially more than in Europe or the US.
Next she goes into a cosmetic store and spend a good hour trying this and that and talking to shop assistant. It was during that time that I had a private conversation with the interpreter. She kept asking me if I really liked the girl and foolishly I said yes, she seems like a nice girl. We then talked about the whole issue of shopping and whether or not it was normal for men to buy all these things and she told me that this always ends up being a sore point with Western men and many refuse or at minimum don't like.
Finally she is done and we go to the cashier - and surprise, surprise, what first looked like a little face cream and one lipstick ended being half of the store. So now it was decision point, do I make a scene and tell her to take a hike or do I pay what was a sum of money that I hadn't even spend on one of my long-term girlfriends during the heydays of my previous relationships (we are talking $2000).
In the end I decide to pay against better judgement - in case you haven't already noticed, I don't like conflicts very much.
As it so happens opposite the cosmetic store there was a jewelry store, but at this point I declared the shopping tour over and we proceeded to the next cab to bring us back to the hotel.
I was very upset by now, but mostly angry at myself. I quickly excuse myself and I could see a somewhat puzzled look on the girl's face.
The next day I told the interpreter that we needed to have chat. So we meet in my room and it was then that I told the girl it's not working for me. I was also going to talk about the inappropriate shopping trip, but I never got to this stage as she started to cry bitterly, disappeared into the bathroom and for more than an hour cried her eyes out and was inconsolable. Now if she was faking all this, I have to say she deserves every piece of cosmetic I bought her, as it would have been an Oscar worthy performance. Her face was red and completely swollen for the rest of the day.
Even the interpreter was at her wits end.
I told at least the interpreter what I was thinking and feeling and she fully understand but then made an interesting comment to me. She said that the girl realized that something was wrong and that I was very removed, but when I bought her all these things she was convinced that I really liked her (and apparently said to the interpreter without me hearing - "He really really likes me").
Well needless to say the date was over at that point and the next morning we both departed, but not before getting another surprise in form of two ultra expensive spa treatments that were added to the hotel bill. And as if all of this was not embarrassing enough the interpreter asked me for money for their taxi ride back to Nikolayev and a little bit of money for lunch, as apparently they had none.
Talking about on expensive weekend.

At that time I didn't know this forum, knew nothing about pro-daters, but have wondered ever since, was this an excellent pro or simply a girl who misread my signs (after all I put her up in the most expensive hotel in Kiev and suggested to take her shopping) and whose heart I ended up breaking, as she said.

For those who I didn't put to sleep with my story, I welcome comments and opinions from folks here who have a lot more experience than I do.

Either way it was a great lesson learned and to be clear I am not blaming the girl, this was my own stupidity and naivety, after all I could have said no. The only thing I will say in my defense is that I never took advantage of the situation or the girl, which I very easily could have, even if the girl may have taken advantage of me.

So how is that for a first visit to the Ukraine and an introduction to dating a Ukrainian woman?   :'(

Well, I'm back in Ukraine as we speak and this time things went differently and I certainly didn't make those mistakes again - but of course made new ones, which I will tell you about later.

Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: el_guero on May 23, 2011, 09:59:49 AM
Well .... Well ....

Well .... You have basically been to the point of marriage 6 times....  You left them, and now we give you sympathy points because this woman, "may have scammed you."

OK, she scammed you.  You get sympathy points.

But, like a couple of others on the board, I think you really could use a dating coach.

You have already spent about what it would cost you to hire Eduard .... and you would come home married.

Well .... maybe not .... but, it would be cheaper.

IMHO.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Larry on May 23, 2011, 11:26:20 AM
Such shopping sprees are clearly inappropriate.   When I read your story I immediately thought of a parody post I wrote about a pro dater from Odessa:

Quote
My new girlfriend Olga is from there (0dessa) and you couldn't find a sweeter girl, and beautiful.  She arranged everything for me in advance of my visit to her in February; I didn't have to do a thing. She met me at the airport with the driver she arranged for us, Ivan, a tall, strapping fellow about Olga's age.   He accompanied us everywhere all week and charged only $150/day, which is a lot less than Stirlitz's rates for driving.

And Olga made sure to keep Ivan's mind on the job.  Once when we were approaching the car his eyes went to a couple of smokinghotkovas in miniskirts and tights.  Olga noticed immediately and said something sharp and harsh to him in Russian, obviously insisting that he open the car door for us and not get distracted from his job by hot girls on the street.  These girls do take care of you when you're there.

And Olga is very open-minded. For example she told me our 28 year age gap didn't bother her a bit, that when two truly love each other, things like age don't matter.  She is so romantic.

Olga is very family-oriented.  I was so pleased to be introduced to her family there.  Several times during my week there her aunt and cousin accompanied us to dinner.  Those girls can eat sushi like nobody's business.  For some reason I had the wrong idea about restaurants in Ukraine.  I thought they would be cheaper than restaurants in the US.  But the bill when Olga's aunt and cousin were there topped $400.   But they weren't there every night.

It was pretty cold that week and Olga's coat looked so thin and she was shivering.  That gave me the idea to surprise her by buying her a coat.  I figured a nice, long goosedown coat would keep her warm in the cold Ukrainian winters.  When I suggested it, she was so happy she gave me a big hug and kiss right there on the street.  She can be affectionate sometimes.  But sometimes not.  Well, she thanked me and suggested that the warmest coat for the harsh winters would be fur.  She knew of a shop where some nice furs were sold.  A friend of hers told her about it, because there's no way Olga could ever have afforded a fur coat from her job at the pencil factory.

We looked for hours and Olga must have tried on a hundred fur coats, in all lengths, colors, and types of fur.  Finally she decided on one, a nice full-length mink.  She looked up at me in an embarrased way and told me, "but I know this one, although warm, is very expensive.  I don't want you to spend so much money on me.  I will pick out a less expensive one".  Remembering the advice that RW don't like greedy men, I immediately told her, "No Olga, I want to buy you that one."  She was ecstatic, gave me a huge smile and practically jumped into my arms and hugged me and kissed me.  Remember how I told you that she was sometimes really, really affectionate!  So, several hours and $9,000 poorer, we left the store.  I asked her if she wanted to throwh her old threadbare coat away right then, but she said she would keep it and wear it when she didn't want to get her new mink coat dirty. 

With all her affection during the week, and looking at her tall, hot body every day, I was pretty charged up for sex.  But my timing was horrible.  Olga began her period on the very day I arrived. I was hoping she would be over it in five days or so, but unfortunately it lasted the entire 7 days I was there.  I hope my timing is better next visit.

Sometimes the learning curve on dating FSUW is steep.

el guero had a good suggestion above: that it would have been better to put the money wasted here into paying for Eduard's services.  You would probably have found a great woman by now.

I hope your current trip goes much better for you.  And it couldn't hurt to expand your search geographically to cover at least Belarus, parts of Russia, and the Baltic Republics.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Rasputin on May 23, 2011, 11:59:09 AM
And then the actual shopping proceeded. She wanted to go to the Armani store, as supposedly she had a ten percent discount card that she got from someone. While in the store the interpreter asks me if it would be OK for me to buy her a pair of jeans as a present and I said of course and actually my intention was to buy her a nice gift even though at this stage I knew this wasn't working for me.

The test to see if she was a "pro-dater" was simple: you simply had to say no at this point and stop being her private bank machine  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: JeanClaude on May 23, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
Armani store? pair of jeans..,,,

Now...no moral preaching on sugar daddy relationships,

But...if you decide to be a sugar daddy....you better get some sugar FIRST!
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 23, 2011, 12:57:42 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone - seems like a pretty clear opinion here. Sorry for not being familiar with Eduard who has been recommended - who is he and how can I get in touch with him?
And for the record, yes my second trip is much better, actually a lot better, although not how I thought it would go, but I leave that for another time.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Larry on May 23, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
Eduard is a Russian guy who moved to the US.  He operates a business in which he looks for good prospects for his Western clients, often on Russian dating sites.  He will translate emails and interpret on 3-way phone calls to the girls.  He will also accompany his clients to FSU to interpret and provide feedback.  I believe his website is www.getrussianwife.com

He's a member here; you can do a search and send him a private message to get in touch. His username is Eduard.  He has apparently built up an impressive record of success for his clients, many of whom are members here and endorse his services.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 23, 2011, 01:19:08 PM
Thanks Larry - much appreciated. I will look him up!
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 23, 2011, 01:53:41 PM
Both your date and the interpreter were in on the well-practiced scam; you don't owe them any anonymity.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Manny on May 23, 2011, 02:16:29 PM
Both your date and the interpreter were in on the well-practiced scam; you don't owe them any anonymity.

Agreed.

You were ripped off. This is simply business to these people.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kiev and Odessa are the two places we read about again and again with stories like this; yet these are the places men insist on flocking to like lemmings.

We don't hear these stories about Russia, Latvia, Estonia, or other former Soviet Union destinations any more. It's always Ukraine; and more specifically Kiev and Odessa. That is what prompted this topic: Has anyone here married a woman from Odessa or Kiev? (http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php/topic,11208.msg160861.html#msg160861)
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: el_guero on May 23, 2011, 03:06:53 PM
OK, that explains a lot.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: nicknick on May 23, 2011, 03:27:59 PM
Both your date and the interpreter were in on the well-practiced scam; you don't owe them any anonymity.

Agreed.

You were ripped off. This is simply business to these people.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kiev and Odessa are the two places we read about again and again with stories like this; yet these are the places men insist on flocking to like lemmings.

Manny,

I don't know if I'm allowed to link to other forums so I haven't included an actual link to the other forum.

There was also a recent trip report on another forum entitled ''Odessa and AnastasiaDate. A Risky Proposition.'' that was a long and interesting read from the OP. 

I would suggest that it would be quite an eye opener for anyone thinking about going to that region of Ukraine.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: andrewfi on May 23, 2011, 05:29:07 PM
OMG is this for real?

Are you the kind of bloke who is in the habit of buying women $9000 mink coats?
Is this normal behaviour for people in your peer group?

In order for this to happen you has got to be fairly seriously loaded in order to have such a reality disconnect going on. ;)

OK, you can get mad at me for writing the foregoing but, unless such behaviour IS normal for you then your own good sense should have informed your choices. The world is what it is. I am guessing that, in truth in your world you DO NOT do such stuff and thus you already knew you were doing a daft thing in the forlorn hope that you'd get some legover.
Not shagging you would have been a part of the game, to see how much you could be induced to spend in exchange for as little as possible. I am sure, assuming the crimson tide was actually in flow when you were with her, the girl knew well enough how to use a sponge had she felt the need or desire to do so...

Can I STRONGLY suggest that you lay off the foreign trips in search of a bride and get some local match practice in before heading for the major leagues!
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Larry on May 23, 2011, 05:36:52 PM
Andrew, hold your horses.  Here is the intro to my post above:

Quote
  When I read your story I immediately thought of a parody post I wrote about a pro dater from Odessa:

It was only a parody.  Never happened in reality. 
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 23, 2011, 06:47:02 PM
SKI,

Before professional dating became the rage in Ukraine, agency interpreters were an asset. All of that has changed and many have become skillful accomplices. In the old days, I would not have written such a thing but, now, I feel that a girl who insists on "her" interpreter should be avoided like the plague.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Donhollio on May 23, 2011, 09:13:01 PM
 VSSKI, I have a very difficult time understanding why some guys allow themselves to be fleeced when they would never allow that to happen if they dated locally.  For those who post about avoiding Odessa, upon further reading you will find that some of them have yet to ever go to that city. Another point is that all these scams seem to be agency girls/prodaters from AWEB or HRB.  Any internet search will uncover the issues with these companies.
 I can only think the reason why as Manny suggests is that its the Kiev/Odessa girls that are all dishonest, is because most men don't travel to Russia. I'm fairly comfortable saying that AWEB/HRB girls do scam men in Russia much the same way VSSKI got fleeced. Maybe the mindset of the Russian traveller is the type who doesn't type and tell, I really don't know. But they scam, don't think the country changes the situation.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 23, 2011, 09:29:05 PM
Maybe the mindset of the Russian traveller is the type who doesn't type and tell, I really don't know.

That's a pretty weak theory, Don.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Donhollio on May 23, 2011, 09:52:43 PM
Maybe the mindset of the Russian traveller is the type who doesn't type and tell, I really don't know.

That's a pretty weak theory, Don.

 :innocent:   I'd like to think a poor effort distracted by the nightly news on TV.  Anyway guys who go to Russia get scammed too. That can't be denied.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 23, 2011, 10:23:16 PM
Occam's Razor applies, Don. If there are more reports of professional dating in Ukraine than in Russia, the simplest explanation is that there are more cases of it. If we were to hypothesize about explanations, the most obvious is that a greater percentage of the female population considers it to be acceptable behavior. This should not be taken to mean that there aren't plenty of honest, ethical girls in Ukraine; I know quite a few personally. Unfortunately, I know more scammers. 
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: andrewfi on May 23, 2011, 11:04:39 PM
Andrew, hold your horses.  Here is the intro to my post above:

Quote
  When I read your story I immediately thought of a parody post I wrote about a pro dater from Odessa:

It was only a parody.  Never happened in reality.

HAHAHAHA! Shoot me!  :-[
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Donhollio on May 23, 2011, 11:54:23 PM
This should not be taken to mean that there aren't plenty of honest, ethical girls in Ukraine; I know quite a few personally. Unfortunately, I know more scammers.

 I guess that's where our search was quite different. While I did come across some scammers in Ukraine, the honest ones I met far outweighed the kind that you and others came to know.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 24, 2011, 06:36:26 AM
I guess that's where our search was quite different.

That's what happens when men chase the crème de la crème. (The percentage of scammers increases exponentially.)
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: kievstar on May 24, 2011, 06:55:59 AM
TomT you have proof the best women are scammers or just a random statement?
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 24, 2011, 07:18:19 AM
TomT-
I think you hit it on the nail, for the scam to have worked the interpreter needed to be in on it because whenever I showed doubts it was her who was the "helping" hand.
This is actually what makes it even more disheartening. In my job I deal with people's careers and lifes all the time and a recommendation from me can mean someone is out on the street, so I am accustomed to people not being all that honest with me and playing games, but at the same time and because of my job I try to be very honest and treat anyone as fairly as I possible can, so seeing this level of sophistication and dishonesty is very unusual for me and made me too naive here.
But again I think you are correct, this dating industry has become a huge and very profitable business and whenever fast money is to be had it attracts all kinds of undesirable elements especially when vast income disparities are at play.

The point I don't fully agree with you is not to date a woman if she insists on an agency interpreter. If I put myself in the woman's shoes someone who she never met comes to see her and he insists on meeting her at some cafe or street corner and brings an interpreter along the girl knows even less about. If I were a woman, I would feel very uncomfortable with this scenario and so I can't blame them for trying to have at least one familiar face with them that they know from the agency. However, if the interpreter is not good (for whatever reason) I do agree that after a first meeting that presumably has gone well, it is best to take a different person that one trusts.

But I also have to say that my second visit to Ukraine, which is still on-going, is very different and quite positive both from a perspective of the women I meet, even in Odessa, as well as the interpreters - actually 180 degrees different, so by now the positive experience outweighs the negative. But I do admit that I come to understand more and more why you and others on this board advise to be careful. I have dated women from all over the world and indeed this is different here.

Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 24, 2011, 07:41:36 AM
Let me address some other comments here:

No I didn't put up this post because I'm looking for sympathy votes, after all I'm calling myself stupid here, I put this up because I know I'm not the only one something like this happened to and because I don't have the experience you guys have - maybe you are all a lot smarter than I am, but I bet not many people want to post here and tell everyone how dumb they were, but I'm hoping it helps others to avoid the same mistakes.

Also, because of having lived in numerous countries around the world I do have experience dating women from vastly different cultures than my own, but have to admit that I didn't expect this - yes it would have been great had I known all of this beforehand, but I didn't, and frankly neither does the vast majority of men that do this

And when I read Andrew's comment of learning to play in my own sandbox at home before hitting the big league, I have to say two things, thank you but it's not been a problem playing at home in so far as getting dates is concerned, but finding someone I truly consider interesting (which is far beyond a pretty face) is difficult for me - at least were I live at the moment-, and two if playing the major leagues means to dodge bullets at every corner, suspect everyone I meet is out to get me and I only succeed by outfoxing the fox I'm not interested in playing - dating should be fun and not some strategy game

I realize that the crowd on this board has a lot of experience, but it is also my perception that you are a very analytical and methodic bunch, i.e. id a girl, exchange the minimum amount of letters, get her personal contact info, cut out the agency, assess she is no scammer and only then consider really dealing with her. Obviously some of you have been successful with this approach and I commend you for it, but at least for me, this sounds like I'm making a decision on a financial investment and not on someone I may want to spend the rest of my life with. And while I have no statistics, I bet that most men see a pretty face on one of these sites and then start chatting and eventually meeting and frankly there are a lot of happily married men out there that are not on this board and I'm sure they have not all taken the approach here outlined.

I for one can say that I'm back in Ukraine, have met three women, same agency, same approach and all three turned out to be serious about their search, very nice and decent, not a single expensive dinner or any other money requests, just all around nice meetings and all with agency interpreters - and tonight I'm going on my third date with one of them

But I am taking your feedback to heart and if I will come back here I will go about this very different and somewhat more methodical, as I can clearly see the benefits of it.

Thanks everyone for the great replies.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 24, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
TomT you have proof the best women are scammers or just a random statement?

I didn't write that the best women were scammers.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: TomT on May 24, 2011, 10:35:42 AM
SKI,

Consider a woman who aspires to marry a foreign man. By far, the best opportunities for her are in an English-speaking country. Yet, instead of learning English, she totes her favorite interpreter around with her on dates.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: el_guero on May 24, 2011, 11:14:04 AM
Unless VSSKI is scamming us (I am always surprised how quickly we point to 'them' being scammers and we are just victims here), I would hazard a guess that this girl actually thought she had found the mother load, that truly rare "Prince Charming."

Can you imagine a young woman reading articles in Edinstvennaya about how many young women have found their rich Ukrainian man.  No doubt the articles point out that this is a risky endeavor, because there are very few super rich and the women are sometimes replaced by a younger model when she hits a certain age. 

And as she continues to read Edinstvennaya, she reads of those privileged few women who find a foreign prince charming.  A man who caters to her every whim ..... marries her and loves her forever.  He would even love if she was fat ..... and he would provide for his family.

And then this guy takes her on a world class shopping spree.

Why wouldn't she think he is the perfect Edinstvennaya man?

Why would she cry for an hour if she was a fake.

Oh it's possible she hoped to take the dupe for another ride, but I think it is much more likely she thought he was for real.  And he was rich, and he was a Prince Charming.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Chris on May 24, 2011, 11:49:57 AM


The point I don't fully agree with you is not to date a woman if she insists on an agency interpreter. I

So the best thing to do is concentrate on ladies who have at least some English skills, that way the terp question never crops up and you are not having to communicate through a third party.

I for one can say that I'm back in Ukraine, have met three women, same agency, same approach and all three turned out to be serious about their search, very nice and decent, not a single expensive dinner or any other money requests, just all around nice meetings and all with agency interpreters - and tonight I'm going on my third date with one of them

When you finally meet proper women with true intentions, the difference is obvious.

Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: B.B. on May 24, 2011, 12:14:11 PM
And when I read Andrew's comment...

As you are a new poster, I will point out that judicious use of the ignore function often enhances the newbie experience at RUA....that is all.

B/B
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Larry on May 24, 2011, 12:41:00 PM
I wish you luck in your search.  I'm glad your experience has been better with the new women.  Have fun in Ukraine.  I hope you come back and tell us how things went.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: andrewfi on May 24, 2011, 12:49:42 PM
VSSKI, in truth, as you might well not have noticed, I was replying to a post from another RUA member that I had misread and missed that it was a parody. ;)

However, if the cap fits...

I do not know you from Adam, but there are some things we can take, as generalisations, to be useful indicators. For example, a bloke who was accustomed to dating women would be pretty unlikely to go round lobbing loads of dosh at bints in advance of building a fairly firm relationship. Experience suggests that blokes who tend to do soft headed stuff and accept 'oddness' of behaviour as some kind of weird normality are also likely to be somewhat lacking in recent match practice. Calibrating one's social radar and reality checking sensors is not a bad thing because you WILL come across women over here who WILL make it their goal to take advantage of your lack of match fitness.

So, it could be that every weekend you are going out with one or more from a selection of women with whom you share part of your life, but you and we know that that is unlikely to be true, yes?

Not all dating is about getting married, but all dating is practice at that part of relationship building that can, if we are fortunate, end with a happy and long lasting relationship. So, even if the women around you are unable to meet your high standards you do no wrong by engaging with them in order to increase your chances of future success!

However, this issue of match fitness goes further. We had a member, a really long time poster. A year or do ago he went off to Ukraine, IIRC to meet a woman with whom he had been communicating for eons. When he met her he started showering her with gifts. He had it in his head that this was what he should do. He had read here many, many times about the risks inherent in acting thus. He became very upset when she did not respond to his advances as positively as he had fantasized. Sadly, he too lacked match fitness, he committed himself to a woman, a stranger, who when she met him, felt nothing for him. Like others, he through no fault of his own  (he was, we are assured by him, a real catch!) was not dating women locally, probably they were not good enough for him. Because his sensors were not calibrated he had no way of understanding the dynamic of his relationship.

A truly important part of a 'winning' mindset is to understand that women are not a scarce commodity. Lovely women are not rare. You can afford to reject a woman because there will be another right along. Guys who are not meeting and relating with many women tend to operate from a perspective of scarcity, they hang on in with a bad choice, justifying inappropriate behavior because 'she might be the one and only'. The one thing you can be sure of, if you are relating with women in your life then you will cease accepting crap, you will cease treating women as rare creatures in short supply.

So vsski, you may disagree with the point I was making; it is your privilege to do so, but the point was made without malice and for your consideration. If you are not up to speed on the dating front (and only YOU know the truth of that!) you will get eaten alive.

Good fortune with your search for a woman who meets your standards! Keep turning over those rocks to find the diamond hidden from sight!
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Rasputin on May 24, 2011, 12:54:38 PM
If you want to avoid pro-daters, the solution is simple: learn to say no. If you are inviting someone to dinner, you have the final say as to where you will eat and what you will pay for. Likewise, if you are dragged on a shopping trip, say no. In other words, say no from time to time and then you will know whether or not she is into you or your money  :coffeeread:
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Hammer2722 on May 24, 2011, 01:17:49 PM
If you want to avoid pro-daters, the solution is simple: learn to say no. If you are inviting someone to dinner, you have the final say as to where you will eat and what you will pay for. Likewise, if you are dragged on a shopping trip, say no. In other words, say no from time to time and then you will know whether or not she is into you or your money  :coffeeread:

Could not have said it better myself. I stopped using agency translators because they were not there in my best interest but the girls and that is a sure fire way to get taken advantage of. Especially if you have no idea what this woman is really telling your lady of interest. Good luck with your search....  :party0031:
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: andrewfi on May 25, 2011, 02:47:54 AM
If you want to avoid pro-daters, the solution is simple: learn to say no.

Entirely true!
The key word you used is 'LEARN'. Most social behavior must be learned and as a part of learning comes practice.

It is so sad that blokes turn up on this and other forums asking, post facto, a question that boils down to 'is this normal'.
You, Rasputin, have a big advantage, you speak fluent Russian. Most guys must infer from body language, limited vocal communication and most importantly their prior experience of actions in context.
I used to be a runner - we had training in tactics, we practiced not just running but also the implementation of tactics. Without the knowledge of those tactics I, and my team, would have been much less successful. That is what I refer to when writing about being 'match fit'. Training to be able to be competent in the basic sport but also the underlying knowledge of what other players are doing and why.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 25, 2011, 01:09:59 PM
Andrew -
appreciate the clarification and you may be surprised that I actually fully agree with you. Dating is something that most people have to learn and only with practice comes experience.
This said I would argue that even someone who is an excellent dater in his country and knows all the ins and outs may still struggle dating in a different culture and not just because of the language difference.
Based on my own experience cultural differences and different mentalities can be significant from region to region and even from country to country - I certainly had to learn this with my ex-Japanese girlfriend for example.
And yes, when it comes to the FSU I feel I have a lot to learn, even though I do actually go on frequent dates back home.
Some things of course are almost universal and body language tells a lot in most cultures (again Asia being soemwhat different from my experience at least).

Without wanting to bore people of how I think and act, I do need to clarify one important point to my post, as most guys here will say, all fine and good, but how could I not know that this was a scam and why didn't I say no, since this can't be normal no matter the cultural differences.

I never said it was normal nor did I ever think it was.
Let me repeat I was not interested in her and she could have offered me her sugar as Jean Claude called it on a silver plate, I wouldn't have taken it.
But I did think she was a nice person and I did invite her to go shopping not the other way round. I was happy to buy her the Armani jeans and had not problem with this (yes, this may seem strange to many for someone I barely know, but I felt if the girl came all the way from Nikolayev for nothing, at least I can buy her a nice present). And I wouldn't have said anything had she picked a lipstick and a perfume at the other store, but the amount was clearly inappropriate.
And while I could have said no, I hate scenes and decided to rather pay than have an embarrising scene in the shop (I know, not many people would do this, but my character flaws are my own).

What made me angry was not the money, although I admit I'd have rather spent it on something else, what makes me angry is dishonesty no matter form it takes.

So the reason why I posted the message other than as a lesson learned to others hopefully (apparently on one here needs it - great) is that I wanted to understand if this is indeed a common cultural trait of FSU women, since it's not something I have come across in any other part of the world I have experience with. Or could it be, as El_Guero stated, simply have been the girl thinking she struck gold and it would be ok to do this, again based on her culture and mentality.

And no I don't expect an answer you already answered it with your previous posts.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Manny on May 25, 2011, 02:13:49 PM
Ski, I take my hat off to you  tiphat  not only for writing this story; as it will surely benefit many others, but also for taking responsibility for your own actions. Something that not everyone does.

You will live and learn from this; as will many others.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: Rasputin on May 25, 2011, 02:25:27 PM
t I wanted to understand if this is indeed a common cultural trait of FSU women, since it's not something I have come across in any other part of the world I have experience with.

No it isn't, but a lot of men will write off bad behaviour as "cultural"  :-X
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: welder on May 25, 2011, 08:40:18 PM
Ski, I take my hat off to you  tiphat  not only for writing this story; as it will surely benefit many others, but also for taking responsibility for your own actions. Something that not everyone does.

You will live and learn from this; as will many others.

I second that Manny.  It is refreshing to see a guy step up an clearly denote he mucked up.  My hat is off to you for the honesty of your post.  It's obvious to you, thankfully, that this could have been avoided and that you take responsibility. 

Ski the only frustrating part is that your refusal to say no allows this viscous little game to continue.  If she was a prodater, they made a killing and the next guy should expect the same.  If she wasn't it has been reinforced that foreigners are lambs to be led to the slaughter house when things are not going well.  For your own sake and that of others coming behind you please jump outside your comfort zone and say no.

Best of luck for a better experience on your current trip.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: el_guero on May 25, 2011, 09:36:49 PM
I think the saddest part is not knowing.

"We," the collective brilliance of our combined intellect, might be able to figure this woman out without ever meeting her.

But, until you ask the other person, you never know much of anything.

"We" keep encouraging each other to ask on the board and go with the consensus.  Do "we" expect that to work well within our marriages?  Is "she" supposed to go to a special board and ask her advisers what "I" mean when I say that "dog doesn't hunt here?"

Or, would it be easier if my (hopefully future) wife and I happen to TALK to (& with) each other?
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: calmissile on May 28, 2011, 12:02:28 AM
I read with interest this train wreck and can happily say that I avoided all of this crap by doing my research first on the forums and then purchasing the new book "The Truth About Russian Brides".  It is unfortunate that many men fall into these traps before understanding the game.  I posted a report on this forum under my screen name "calmissile" and it has not been read that much but gives a lot of insight into what I learned before ever making my first trip.

I just spent a week in Primorsk and had the best week of my life.  It was my first trip and I was only with one women..... the one that I have had daily Skype chats with for over a month.  My earlier post described all the advantages of having this type of daily contacta before ever spending any money on a trip let alone gifts, etc.

As it was my first trip to the Ukraine it was quite enlightening even though I thought I had learned a lot before going.  Rather than post more of it here , I will post a trip report on my experience in a day or so.   The experience I had totally eliminated all the scam stuff and also gave me a great deal of knowledge about the culture.   I do plan on bringing my fiance to the US and getting married as soon as we can arrange it.  After reading my trip report you will understand why she is such a gem.  Please note that I did not go to the Ukraine to find a wife.  I had already met  her on line and established a close relationsip.  I think going there and 'window shopping' is probably the worse possible method to find a wife.

Calmissile...... Doug
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: andrewfi on May 29, 2011, 04:09:17 PM
When talking of 'cultural differences' we need to understand there are many cultures. For example, those of you who are from the USA can be assumed to be members of that cultural group one might describe as 'American'. Those of you who are Christian belong to a cultural group we might call 'Christians' and within those sub cultures we have the common factors found among USAians seeking wives from the FSU. Can that group be described? Yes, it can be done and has been done and the results are surprisingly similar from one study to another.

Knowing this we can also know that the group of women who market themselves to foreign guys as wives are a part of a cultural group too. There are differences between the average of Russian women and the average of Russian women who seek foreign husbands. One difference between that group of women and the group of AL Russian women is, I am certain, the bias toward acquisitiveness and dissatisfaction with what she perceives she can get as a husband within her normal peer group. This is the counterpart of the 'bigger better deal' seeking that is so much a part of what you guys go on about when seeking a Russian bride.

It seems to me that there IS therefore a whole load of cultural difference that you lot will meet. Meeting women who are more acquisitive than the norm is simply part and parcel of finding a foreign bride using foreign facing marriage agencies!
All that vsski likely found was a woman who was a tad more extreme than the norm for foreign husband seekers but I am sure that she will find a bloke who meets her needs, or at least with whom she can reach a decent compromise.

So, those who say that these are not cultural differences are incorrect, they ARE cultural differences but you simply need to identify the culture before making a statement of comparison.
That said, I DO think that there is a tendency toward materialism and acquisitiveness among today's Russians that is greater than for many folks living in the USA. It s largely a perceived need to close the gaps, to keep up with the Joneses as we say in the UK.

You guys Do need to learn to say NO to these women otherwise you are, in aggregate, making the life of all of you who marry one of these women harder. But that, again goes back to the match fitness thing. As most of us know, in life we tend to prefer to say 'yes' rather than 'no' and getting the balance right takes practice.
Title: Re: My First Trip to Kiev - Professional Dater Or Not That Is The Question
Post by: VSSKI on May 31, 2011, 04:45:12 AM
TomT,
I have to correct a statement I made earlier. Now that I just came back from my second trip in Ukraine and have learned a lot more - and this time no train wreck to report  :).
You were absolutely right when you said to get the agency translator out of the way asap - I met enough women now to know that those who are serious have no problem at all with doing this and it makes for conversations that are not only much better, open and honest, but it really makes it so much easier to understand the woman you are dealing with and what she is truly looking for.

I tip my hat to you  tiphat !