"The Ukraine" or "Ukraine" - Which is Correct?

[msmoby]

Recently, in a thread about Kiev/ Kiev - a member warned a 'newbie' that is was WRONG to talk of 'the Ukraine'.. that the  definite article should be dropped.

I'm asking WHY ?

WHO 'decreed' this?!..


I found this article - that might be used by the "drop the, 'THE'  " campaign

http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

But it seems to me the author forgot THE Gambia, The Lebanon and is really only saying HE doesn't like us to use it..  

[Rasputin]

Recently, in a thread about Kiev/ Kiev - a member warned a 'newbie' that is was WRONG to talk of 'the Ukraine'.. that the  definite article should be dropped.

I'm asking WHY ?

WHO 'decreed' this?!..

But it seems to me the author forgot THE Gambia, The Lebanon and is really only saying HE doesn't like us to use it..   

Where have you been this past decade or two? Most of the world's major media publications have dropped the "the" when referring to Ukraine. I cite, as a case in point, the Economist. Feel free to read through this article and see how they do not use the article in from of Ukraine. As they say in Russian: "поезд уже ушёл и рельсы убрали." 

[msmoby]

Where have you been this past decade or two?

Mostly flying backwards and forwards from Cyprus to the Ukraine / Russia

Most of the world's major media publications have dropped the "the" when referring to Ukraine. I cite, as a case in point, the Economist. Feel free to read through this article and see how they do not use the article in from of Ukraine. As they say in Russian: "поезд уже ушёл и рельсы убрали."  

Most of the world's press still refer to 'Mail order brides'...think of Borsch as Russian and refer to Kiev as Kiev. ... [ the UK Embassy in the Ukraine call it Kiev !]

Really, I'm not being pedantic .. I just want someone to tell me WHY one *can't* use the definite article.... definitively - back up by fact.. not offer examples, so therefore 'it must be'..

I've checked out how the Ukrainians say their countries name - in English - and they DO drop the THE ..


But as they also drop the THE when referring to 'the Cossacks'  A bright page of our history is Cossacks who appeared in the 15th century.... I'm wondering are some of us slavishly following a grammatical mistake, and compounding it  ?

http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/en/259.htm

[Rasputin]

Really, I'm not being pedantic .. I just want someone to tell me WHY one *can't* use the definite article.... definitively - back up by fact.. not offer examples, so therefore 'it must be'..

The convention is quite simple. When referring to a country, you do not use the article. You will say "I am going to Canada" not "I am going to the Canada." You use the article when the country's name implies a plural: The United States, The Netherlands, etc... The Gambia is an exception as the country decided, counter to the normal standard, add an article where one is not required.

Why the "the" when referring to a region, not a country. This is why Ukrainians objected to the use of "the" Ukraine as it implied they were merely a region (of Russia) and not a country.

[Chris]

This has been discussed in so many threads already on here, if I find the others or can be bothered too I will merge them, or one of the other mods can do it.

Moby, do you know how to use the search feature? 

[WestCoast]

Where have you been this past decade or two?

Mostly flying backwards and forwards from Cyprus to the Ukraine / Russia

Most of the world's major media publications have dropped the "the" when referring to Ukraine. I cite, as a case in point, the Economist. Feel free to read through this article and see how they do not use the article in from of Ukraine. As they say in Russian: "поезд уже ушёл и рельсы убрали." 

Most of the world's press still refer to 'Mail order brides'...think of Borsch as Russian and refer to Kiev as Kiev. ... [ the UK Embassy in the Ukraine call it Kiev !]

Really, I'm not being pedantic .. I just want someone to tell me WHY one *can't* use the definite article.... definitively - back up by fact.. not offer examples, so therefore 'it must be'..

I've checked out how the Ukrainians say their countries name - in English - and they DO drop the THE ..


But as they aslo drop the THE when referring to 'the Cossacks'  A bright page of our history is Cossacks who appeared in the 15th century.... I'm wondering are some of us slavishly following a grammatical mistake, and compounding it  ?

http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/en/259.htm

Moby I really see no reason why you can't use "the Ukraine" if you want.  It is incorrect but if you want to use it I see no reason to argue with you about it. 

Everyone here uses the English language incorrectly at one time or another.   Add to that all the typos and slang and some posts are difficult to understand and that's from the native English speakers. 

[Chris]

Moby

What does coreect mean for us English speakers

[msmoby]

This has been discussed in so many threads already on here, if I find the others or can be bothered too I will merge them, or one of the other mods can do it.

Moby, do you know how to use the search feature?  

Yup, but I thought it was better to start a new thread rather than cluttering up Wayne - the new member's one on Kiev !

Moby

What does coreect mean for us English speakers

I did see that and HOPED some 'nice'  Mod would quietly correct it  

I know, I DESERVE it ;0 !

[Chris]

Ok I coreected corrected the first post, so any new ones will be right also, haven't got time to go in and edit all the posts in between. 

[BC]

http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/article4c.html

[msmoby]

http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/article4c.html

The Gambia, The Lebanon and possibly The Ukraine don't fit this 'rule'

[Rasputin]

http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/article4c.html

The Gambia, The Lebanon and possibly The Ukraine don't fit this 'rule'

The Gambia does not fit this rule as it CHOSE not to follow the rules. In effect, they have officially included the "the" in the name of their country and they capitalize it! As for Lebanon, where exactly do you see Lebanon used with a "the"? As with other countries such Ukraine and Canada, the "the" is not used. Who exactly would say "I am going to the Lebanon"?

[Chris]

English grammar does not require a definite article before the names of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Atlantic, the North, the West all require the definite article, but these are not countries. Since 1917 Ukraine has had very definite borders so it cannot be regarded as merely a region.

Even the computer age has ruled that "the" Ukraine is wrong in English. Gram-mat-ik, the very popular grammar and style checker for computers by Reference Software International of San Francisco, uses Ukraine without the article and labels "the Ukraine" as a mistake of grammar.

Now, the exception to the rule. Yes, it is possible for "the Ukraine" to be correct in English but it is a very rare usage in apposition to contrast the past with the present. For example, one could correctly say, "The America of George Washington is not the America of Bill Clinton" as well as "The Ukraine of Shevchenko is not the Ukraine of Kravchuk."

We may conclude then, that the use of the definite article in English before the name Ukraine is awkward, incorrect and superfluous. Writers who care about good style in their English grammar and the correctness of their language will always avoid the use of "the Ukraine" and use only the simpler and correct "Ukraine."

[msmoby]

The Gambia does not fit this rule as it CHOSE not to follow the rules. In effect, they have officially included the "the" in the name of their country and they capitalize it!

I'm sorry, but who set this 'rule' ?!

As for Lebanon, where exactly do you see Lebanon used with a "the"? As with other countries such Ukraine and Canada, the "the" is not used. Who exactly would say "I am going to the Lebanon"?

I lived in Cyprus for nearly seven years -  is only 100 miles from Beirut. I've been there, love the food, and I've heard 'THE Lebanon' used by British folk for years..  even UK Bands used it in songs..

I suppose you might tell me it helped the lyrics ?!





 

[Rasputin]

I'm sorry, but who set this 'rule' ?!

The country of The Gambia itself, but people will still refer to it as Gambia because that is the normal convention in the English language.

I lived in Cyprus for nearly seven years -  is only 100 miles from Beirut. I've been there, love the food, and I've heard 'THE Lebanon' used by British folk for years..  even UK Bands used it in songs..

Yet, British publications such as The Economist and The Financial Times do not use the "the" when referring to Lebanon so your proof is simply that some Brits you allegedly met in Cyprus speak of "the" Lebanon and a cheesy 80's band?

[Halo]

Diaspora Ukrainians are especially sensitive to use of "the" Ukraine.  For generations, Ukrainians were told they were not a separate nation, that their language was a dialect of Russian or Polish (depending on whether they were on the Left Bank or the Right Bank - one can even see similar comments on this board), and there was never going to be an independent Ukrainian state.  So, that is why it rankles.

Ukrainian has no article, so for most Ukrainians, who do not speak English fluently, or speak it poorly, this is a non issue.  

[Vinnvinny]

I think moby needs to get down the pub more.   

[mendeleyev]

Okay, I was going to avoid (this time) the "the" subject but as an Exec. Producer who manages writers and reporters, most in Eastern Europe, I'll weigh in on how the professional media approaches Ukraine.

In broadcast we use the AP Stylebook (Associated Press) and the NBC Handbook of Pronunciation. Newspapers and magazines use both also.

Professional guidebooks, including the AP and NBC publications, dictate that localized names be decided by locals. Caribbean and Appalachian are great examples of how a name can be misleading depending on who is using it, but at the end of the day, those hillbillies in Kentucky/Virginia get to decide what is right when in comes to Appalachian, just as the locals on the tiny islands Bonaire and Curacao get to decide the correct way to say Caribbean.

Regarding Ukraine, here are some quick examples of stories which have crossed my view recently:

Maria Danilova (AP) in Kiev and Steve Gutterman (AP) in Moscow wrote this piece, which says that..."Putin said the transit of gas to Europe was Ukraine's problem and Ukraine must solve it."

Another....this one from Authur Max, a stringer and frequent writer for AP who lives in Ukraine submitted this..."Vladimir Gapor is a plumber by trade......for others beyond this manufacturing graveyard, however, Ukraine's economic collapse has produced a potential multibillion-dollar bonanza. In an era of climate change regulation and carbon trading, Ukraine, ironically, is profiting from the smokeless smokestacks of its industrial shutdown.


Here is a Ukrainian journalist writing on this very subject: http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/


The Ukrainian government has also addressed the question: In the constitution the country is of but one name: Ukraine. Not "the Republic of...." or anything else, but just one name. Check it here: http://www.kmu.gov.ua/document/110977042/Constitution_eng.doc

Constitution of Ukraine  

Title I     GENERAL PRINCIPLES

Article 1. Ukraine shall be a sovereign and independent, democratic, social, law-based state.

Article 2. The sovereignty of Ukraine shall extend throughout its entire territory.
Ukraine shall be a unitary state.

The territory of Ukraine within its present borders shall be indivisible and inviolable.

(Notice that they are well aware of English grammar and this particular article (the). They've even used the article in their constitution--just not in relation with the name of their country.)


Next, here is a Ukrainian law publication and quickly down the page it lists how the name should be spelled in other languages. Note the absence of THE and only the single word "UKRAINE."  http://www.statoids.com/uua.html


Sorry to have upset all my good friends in The Canada and The England, yea even the State of The Texas, with such a weary and tedius post. However if I've manage to afflict more than minute degrees of annoyance at any of my friends--great!  

I'm going to bury my head back into a book about The Russia. If that is boring I'll try relaxing with a book about The Georgia, The Greece, or perhaps The Cypress.

[WestCoast]

Okay, I was going to avoid (this time) the "the" subject but as an Exec. Producer who manages writers and reporters, most in Eastern Europe, I'll weigh in on how the professional media approaches Ukraine.

In broadcast we use the AP Stylebook (Associated Press) and the NBC Handbook of Pronunciation. Newspapers and magazines use both also.

Professional guidebooks, including the AP and NBC publications, dictate that localized names be decided by locals. Caribbean and Appalachian are great examples of how a name can be misleading depending on who is using it, but at the end of the day, those hillbillies in Kentucky/Virginia get to decide what is right when in comes to Appalachian, just as the locals on the tiny islands Bonaire and Curacao get to decide the correct way to say Caribbean.

Regarding Ukraine, here are some quick examples of stories which have crossed my view recently:

Maria Danilova (AP) in Kiev and Steve Gutterman (AP) in Moscow wrote this piece, which says that..."Putin said the transit of gas to Europe was Ukraine's problem and Ukraine must solve it."

Another....this one from Authur Max, a stringer and frequent writer for AP who lives in Ukraine submitted this..."Vladimir Gapor is a plumber by trade......for others beyond this manufacturing graveyard, however, Ukraine's economic collapse has produced a potential multibillion-dollar bonanza. In an era of climate change regulation and carbon trading, Ukraine, ironically, is profiting from the smokeless smokestacks of its industrial shutdown.


Here is a Ukrainian journalist writing on this very subject: http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/


The Ukrainian government has also addressed the question: In the constitution the country is of but one name: Ukraine. Not "the Republic of...." or anything else, but just one name. Check it here: http://www.kmu.gov.ua/document/110977042/Constitution_eng.doc

Constitution of Ukraine  

Title I     GENERAL PRINCIPLES

Article 1. Ukraine shall be a sovereign and independent, democratic, social, law-based state.

Article 2. The sovereignty of Ukraine shall extend throughout its entire territory.
Ukraine shall be a unitary state.

The territory of Ukraine within its present borders shall be indivisible and inviolable.

(Notice that they are well aware of English grammar and this particular article (the). They've even used the article in their constitution--just not in relation with the name of their country.)


Next, here is a Ukrainian law publication and quickly down the page it lists how the name should be spelled in other languages. Note the absence of THE and only the single word "UKRAINE."  http://www.statoids.com/uua.html


Sorry to have upset all my good friends in The Canada and The England, yea even the State of The Texas, with such a weary and tedius post. However if I've manage to afflict more than minute degrees of annoyance at any of my friends--great!  

I'm going to bury my head back into a book about The Russia. If that is boring I'll try relaxing with a book about The Georgia, The Greece, or perhaps The Cypress.

Mendy, do you really think Moby cares what the journalists and politicians have to say on this subject?    Moby thinks that it should be "the Ukraine" so he'll use "the Ukraine" no matter what the Ukrainians or journalists think. 

  Personally I think he's just arguing about it to up his post count. 

[Chris]

offtopic Personally I think he's just arguing about it to up his post count.  laugh

I think he thinks there is another room, after the 500 room, he is posting like mad to get into something thast doesn't exist 

[msmoby]

offtopic Personally I think he's just arguing about it to up his post count.  laugh

I think he thinks there is another room, after the 500 room, he is posting like mad to get into something thast doesn't exist 

Goddamit, Chris WHY didn't you tell me EARLIER?   


  ... Now I'll have to be NICE  to everyone and hope to be a moderator 

[Manny]

  ... Now I'll have to be NICE  to everyone and hope to be a moderator 

Good luck with that idea. 

By the way, are you now convinced it is Ukraine and not the Ukraine?

[msmoby]

Good luck with that idea.  

Ah.. it remains,  but a distant hope.. 

By the way, are you now convinced it is Ukraine and not the Ukraine?

Nope..  all I've seen is :

1/ 'rules' .. which ain't rules

2/ some publications don't bother

3/ some ex-pat Ukrainians 'object' feeling it lessens their nations status.. I accept it's nationhood.

4/ incorrect translations of the meaning of the Ukraine - being misinterpreted

I'll still call it 'the Ukraine' ( and refer to 'the Lebanon' ) and no-one there has EVER corrected me..

HMG and I believe 'Uncle Sam' refer to Kiev ( not Kiev) now .. but we don't see that 'corrected' ..    


  
  

[Bruce Lee]

But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.

Is it just me or how on earth can anybody have a sensible debate with a bloke who after nearly 4 years of membership still can't grasp the fact that there is no "the" in front of the word "Ukraine"!!

How many times?

Wheres the exploding head smiley?

[Markje]

But guess what, artist of all types including web site builders are among the most unreliable people you find in the USA also. The Ukraine is just not better. I have a good time when I go to the Ukraine and most of the people are usually very nice to me.

Is it just me or how on earth can anybody have a sensible debate with a bloke who after nearly 4 years of membership still can't grasp the fact that there is no "the" in front of the word "Ukraine"!!

How many times?

Wheres the exploding head smiley?

This one?