Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?

[supranatural]

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

I was just reading a recent topic about a scammer from Ivanovo, Russia
Here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8530.msg121529#msg121529

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

I took you up on the offer, and tallied up the stories in our Train Wreck Room. A total of 10 stories there. (I excluded the threads on Leo, Loyal, and SVOrookie)  
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=46.0

The results?  7 Russian train wrecks, 3 Ukrainian train wrecks. Clearly not an overwhelming majority of Ukrainian train wrecks as you suggest.

Based on the above, I disagree with your generalizations.

Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.

[mirror]

I'd like to notice that when you hear "Mysterious Russian soul" you should know that it is about Russian soul but not about Ukr. Ukr soul can be read very simply:"pay money (or give a fat piece) and I will love you, or I will be your friend,wife...whatever)".But don't forget that if one day somebody will give biggest piece of fat this friend will betray you and it is a national Ukr character trait. In my opinion it is much better to know that than not to know. For me I'd like to be prepared.

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one  female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expeling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

When you have a colleague -Ukr, you need to expect a treachery one day and we saw one example from a member of this forum also when he wrote about how his wife got second paid job after telling about mistake of a colleague to her boss and dismissal this colleague.Many members here were applauding  "how clever was his wife" but personaly I got a fastidious impression about this wife.

We can debate about if this action was good or bad but what I see it is: Westerns and Russians have different mentalities and we take differently a question about getting of a piece of bread in competitive struggle. To live in a competitve society is ,maybe,normaly for most Westerns but in Russia we were raised to live in a friendship  and it came from Russian blood.Ukrs are different :they have very selfish mentality and I can quess that a question about common background will come again.It is not same: Russians and Ukrs  and Ukr nationalists show it to us last few years.Ukr nationalists are fighting against Russians in Chechen and Georgian armyes.

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.

We all feel sorry for poor Ukr ladies who eat last piece of bread and tommorow maybe will die from a hunger and collect money to send them and give credits,oil,gas for free. Any gratitude? No, they take it like it should be done like that. Have a look at some Ukr girl post here "Do you think that laptop is expensive gift to Ukr girl?" .Laptop is not expensive gift for her.It is normal or even maybe cheap gift.( Is laptop cheap gift for you too? I think "no"). Where did this attitude come from? I personaly can guess.

I think Ukr girls use their country lable "a country with poor economy" with their own benefit with no doubts and recent situation are played very well. Do you feel sorry for them still? take any Ukr lady to your homeland and you will help to Ukr economy.

[BCKev]

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.

My experience is the opposite. When times were rough, the RW did nothing to support me. The UW did.

I don't take this as any kind of national trait, but as a part of a person's character.

You keep on trying to put down Ukrainian women. You are telling me nothing about UW, but reveal a lot about your hateful self.

[supranatural]

I'd like to notice that when you hear "Mysterious Russian soul" you should know that it is about Russian soul but not about Ukr. Ukr soul can be read very simply:"pay money (or give a fat piece) and I will love you, or I will be your friend,wife...whatever)".But don't forget that if one day somebody will give biggest piece of fat this friend will betray you and it is a national Ukr character trait. In my opinion it is much better to know that than not to know. For me I'd like to be prepared.

Again please provide proof of this, otherwise it's again your unsubstantiated and prejudiced opinions again.  I could care less about the mysterious Russian soul - it's about the same as the "traditional" woman myth.  I don't know anyone who says "I'm going to Russia for a woman because she has that mysterious Russian soul."

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one  female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expeling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

So one hotel tells us that all of Ukraine are prostitutes?  And what about the other 10%?  Obviously a fair number of Russian women are prostitutes as well.

When you have a colleague -Ukr, you need to expect a treachery one day and we saw one example from a member of this forum also when he wrote about how his wife got second paid job after telling about mistake of a colleague to her boss and dismissal this colleague.Many members here were applauding  "how clever was his wife" but personaly I got a fastidious impression about this wife.

Not sure what you mean by this...can you clarify please?

We can debate about if this action was good or bad but what I see it is: Westerns and Russians have different mentalities and we take differently a question about getting of a piece of bread in competitive struggle. To live in a competitve society is ,maybe,normaly for most Westerns but in Russia we were raised to live in a friendship  and it came from Russian blood.Ukrs are different :they have very selfish mentality and I can quess that a question about common background will come again.It is not same: Russians and Ukrs  and Ukr nationalists show it to us last few years.Ukr nationalists are fighting against Russians in Chechen and Georgian armyes.

Can you provide proof again about this statement?  Ukraine's fighting against Russians?  Is that surprising considering some of the history between the two countries?  Should Ukraine support Russia in everything?  And in my experience I've experienced more open hospitality and warmness from Ukranians than Russians.

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.

Really?  Is that why my RW ex-wife nearly bankrupt my family and did not lift a finger to help?  That sure doesn't sound like support on a rainy day.  Please provide evidence or else again this is simply your assumptions and prejudices...

We all feel sorry for poor Ukr ladies who eat last piece of bread and tommorow maybe will die from a hunger and collect money to send them and give credits,oil,gas for free. Any gratitude? No, they take it like it should be done like that. Have a look at some Ukr girl post here "Do you think that laptop is expensive gift to Ukr girl?" .Laptop is not expensive gift for her.It is normal or even maybe cheap gift.( Is laptop cheap gift for you too? I think "no"). Where did this attitude come from? I personaly can guess. \

I've also heard of Russian girls asking for a computer or laptop as well.  This does not prove anything. My RW wife asked for far more than my UW wife ever did.  She asked for money to send to her Moscow family all the time.  My UW wife never asks for money for her family.  Again, please provide direct evidence, facts or personal experience as proof or else it's speculation.

I think Ukr girls use their country lable "a country with poor economy" with their own benefit with no doubts and recent situation are played very well. Do you feel sorry for them still? take any Ukr lady to your homeland and you will help to Ukr economy.

Again instead of stating prejudiced opinion please provide facts.

[msmoby]

Lets not overlook economics. Prosperous FSU countries are seldom exporting women. Look at the Baltics. Tallinn is heaving with slim, blonde, achingly hot, young women - almost none of whom want to meet a foreigner.

Look at Ukraine - in financial crisis - many women seek to export themselves. The big towns and cities are home to sex tours and socials. Who can find a wife in a climate of sex tourists and greedy foreigners who wont even pay a taxi home for a woman?  

Poor country = women who will compromise (settle) = richer, older foreigners. Tell me I am wrong?

Dear Manny

I dated a ethnic Russian lady living in Kiev and she was earning huge money - she certainly didn't need  or want a ticket out of UA.. in fact she wanted ME to move there.. !

YES, there is an economic factor.. and YES UA is worse off than RU, but there *are* ethnic Russian women on sites who live in Latvia and Estonia, too.. The economy of Latvia, in particular, took a big hit..

you know that many women are on these sites because they believe WM make more loyal, reliable, husbands, too !!

You've said it SO many times, I wonder WHY it hasn't sunk in.. the UA is "over-fished"..  Many women  from UA are now "jaded"...  

I don't know if having met with 30 guys before is such a "bad" thing..  I've dated over 30 women in my life .. I DIDN'T sleep with 'em all ... Was THAT what you meant  ?

[Chris]

. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

and why does it tend to be American guys that have these train wrecks? sure there will be more travelling over there, but it is rare to hear of a guy from other parts of the world having the same problems.

[Chris]

For sure, there are many fabulous women in Ukraine. Many of our members are married to them. I know all about the cultural similarities with Russians etc. But it does seem that most "hard luck" stories come from guys involved with women from Ukraine.

Why is it that of all the scams and what not you hear about, they all seem to be situated or are coming from cities in Southern and Eastern Ukraine, areas that are traditionally more pro Russian than anywhere else and of course are closer to the Russian borders than say the cities of Western Ukraine are?

Now some cities, Kevi, Kerch, Krivoi Rog, Lusansk, Mariupol, Nikolayev, Odessa, Poltava, Simferpol, Sevastopol, Zaporzhie. Yet for Russia Pskov, and St Pertersburg would be the only two I would list. All of these had a massive numbers of unsolicited letters sent in the dead of night (for the women's dead of night). A lot of them sent within seconds of each other, and would appear in your mailbox all in a row. All sent by agency personal to solicit your business, since the ladies would be fast asleep On that subject the age range starts at 18, and heads toward your own regardless of what your profile states for this. Volume for the two fake profiles was around 500-600 letters, in a couple of weeks. The letters would be the same in all profiles. some even had seconds and thirds sent as well, while I left them active. Some of these ladies are real, some may not be.

I rest my case, most of these cities are in Southern or Eastern Ukraine closer to the Russian border are Russian speaking and are allied to Russia much more than places like Lvov et al and yet you very rarely hear of these stories from the Western parts of the country.

[Wild Orchid]

Would you like to have a competitor in your home? take Ukr woman. Opposit : RW will support you in your rainy days.

Met one RW from Novosibirsk, who robbed husband's family blind after his very quick and sudden death. Gossips were Viagra was involved. He was stupid enough not to have a will at the age of 55+, she got everything, and there was a lot. 3 kids and disabled ex-wife that he supported in nursing home ended up with absolutely nothing.

[Chris]

Shakespear, how much current experience do you have with UW and travel there?  I've been there 8 times in the two years or so, including a 5 week stay.  I've met plenty of UW including the time I initally went on a "tour" to meet UW.  Far fewer women are so eager to leave at this time - you may not believe it but except for the current world financial crises that affects every country, most are doing far better than you think you know.  I've heard a lot of your anti-UW bias on other forums and I can respect that you have an opinion, but I have a LOT more  current in country experience than you do and unless you can back up what you say with actual experience I will take my actual experience over yours thank you.

As far as being much more depressed, according to current statistics, Ukraine's GDP has risen from $31B to $131B from 2000 to 2007, with a 24% growth per year.  GDP per capita has increased 5 fold from 1999 to 2007.  In 2007 Ukraine's GDP per capita has tripled to 7.9% of the European level and likely to double again in four years.  It is predicted that in the next 10 years Ukraine's GDP will rise more than Russia's.  Hmm doesn't sound like it's "much more depressed than Russia's economy." Got to usubc.com for more infomation.

When I was there I was in several different cities and I saw a lot of new construction, new western style malls, and more and more amenties for travelers.  My wife's family has plenty of money, and the friends I have there also have plenty of money.  One of my friends bought a $50,000 car for cash to add to his two other cars, replete with in car entertainment system, navigation, etc.  and is building a 3 story house in the Crimea.

In other words, I don't think your opinion is backed by real substantiated facts and evidence.

I can say the same Supra, I have been to Ukraine 8 times in the last 18 months, came back only last week, I am doin g business there too,  and although most on here think the people of the Western regions that I travel too are poor humble, village people, there is plenty of cash there and it would surprise most Westerners how much these people can be actually worth in cash terms, not credit terms. Some of the new houses springing up by the hundreds are massive, even compared to Western standards. Sure the country is suffering and business is no where near as good as it was 18 months ago,  but isn't it the same everywhere, but there is tons of money around for many, don't go thinking they are all poor farmers and beggars.

[mirror]

I am not going to prove any my word because it is true and because if he asks me  to prove why should I believe what Supra (what a nickname!) writes about his RW without his evidences? It could be something like his ex RW told him the truth about him to his face straight and he didn't like it and now he says that she was bad. I have a right not to believe him and I am not a judge to ask evidences.

Although what evidences do you ask me? What I write it is a generalisation and it came from many ways of observation and an experience.

I have more generalisations: that Vietnam and Chinese people are hardworking people, Russians have "Mysterious Russian soul",all bankirs-jews,all Muslims are circumcised,all Ukr women are ...you know   and many other generalisations. Don't you personaly know any?

[shakespear]

[Sources?  I've quoted my sources what are yours.

Regardless, the difference is around 10% between Russia and Ukraine.  That is not "much" more depressed to support your argument that there are more desperate women in Ukraine.  If the difference was 30-40% I'd give you that you have something there.  You don't.  Regardless, the original argument was that you said Ukrainian women are more desperate and your supporting argument was the that Ukraine was "much" more economically depressed.  You have yet to prove that.  And, you have not been to Ukraine to witness firsthand if the women are desperate.  I have and you are wrong there as well. 

-sigh

I'll waste no more time trying to prove the obvious to you.  Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they're open.   

In most categories of evaluation, the differences are MUCH higher than 30-40%.  The economic facts are undeniable.  Until Ukraine further diversifies their economy to reduce Russians dominance as their overwhelming major trading partner, their economy will always be a convex mirror image of the Russian economy.  Perhaps EU membership and 20+ years of economic change will slowly reduce Russian trading dominance - who knows. 

The conclusion about Ukrainian women being more desperate is a sound logical conclusion based on the state of their economy. 

[shakespear]

Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.

You can't be serious?

A 7 to 3 breakdown of 10 stories on an internet chat group is hardily statistically significant data. 

[shakespear]

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expelling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

So one hotel tells us that all of Ukraine are prostitutes?  And what about the other 10%? Obviously a fair number of Russian women are prostitutes as well. 

There is no question that the vast majority of prostitutes working the hotels and train stations of Moscow are illegial Ukrainian residents without proper propiskas.  When you can't get a job at home, you go where you can and do what you can to support your family and children.   

[Voyager]

I am not going to prove any my word because it is true and because if he asks me  to prove why should I believe what Supra (what a nickname!) writes about his RW without his evidences?

Why should we believe what you write without any evidence? What is your experience, have you lived in Ukraine or only visited? How many Ukrainian people do you know well?

You can't be serious?

A 7 to 3 breakdown of 10 stories on an internet chat group is hardily statistically significant data. 

Shakey, Manny challenged members to "Look in the train wreck room", BCKev did just that.

In addition, how many more members do we have here with "train wrecks" that are not in the TR room? I know BBQ wrote his story on another forum. Bgreed just told about his wife - Ukrainian. Jerico's wife was Russian I believe. Anyone else here?

[Eduard]

You can't judge the whole nation's values and ethics by looking at a few women who married and in some cases divorced men on these forums. Let's face it - these women are already quite different from the general population.
In order to truly understand the differences one must:
1. become a 100% fluent in the language of the country
2. live there for at least a couple of years, deal with the every day routine, job, lifestyle, people, problems, etc. to really get the feel for it.
By going to Russia and Ukraine several times and spending a couple of weeks at a time, as a tourist without speaking the language you just scratch the surface and think that "now you know", but in fact that's all you did - just scratched the surface a bit...

[AkMike]

You can't judge the whole nation's values and ethics by looking at a few women

 If we were to do that with mirror and W/O and make broad speculations as they do then Russia wouldn't be a nice place either.

[supranatural]

[Sources?  I've quoted my sources what are yours.

Regardless, the difference is around 10% between Russia and Ukraine.  That is not "much" more depressed to support your argument that there are more desperate women in Ukraine.  If the difference was 30-40% I'd give you that you have something there.  You don't.  Regardless, the original argument was that you said Ukrainian women are more desperate and your supporting argument was the that Ukraine was "much" more economically depressed.  You have yet to prove that.  And, you have not been to Ukraine to witness firsthand if the women are desperate.  I have and you are wrong there as well. 

-sigh

I'll waste no more time trying to prove the obvious to you.  Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they're open.   

Thank for the wise saying, you should take heed and listen to yourself.  Since around 2001 you've had an irrational unfounded prejudice against UW, constantly warning guys to stay away from them.  Your mind obviously is closed as well.

In most categories of evaluation, the differences are MUCH higher than 30-40%.  The economic facts are undeniable.  Until Ukraine further diversifies their economy to reduce Russians dominance as their overwhelming major trading partner, their economy will always be a convex mirror image of the Russian economy.  Perhaps EU membership and 20+ years of economic change will slowly reduce Russian trading dominance - who knows. 

The conclusion about Ukrainian women being more desperate is a sound logical conclusion based on the state of their economy. 

More than 30-40%?  You were the one who provided the numbers Shakey.  I see far less the 30-40%.  More like about 10% difference.  Were you asleep during math as well Shakey?  You don't have to have to be a math genius...here are you numbers:

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Difference of 3%

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Difference of 8.4%

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

difference of 11.9%

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

difference of 7%

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%

difference of 9%

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

difference of 9%

If you can't do this in your head try a calculator.

The conclusion about Ukrainian women being more desperate is a sound logical conclusion based on the state of their economy. 

It's not a sound logical conclusion Shakey.  If that were the case, the US would also be replete in women wanting to leave, brothels springing up all over the place since many people have lost 50, 60, 70 or 80% of the investments and are either losing their homes or have lost them and tens of thousands of jobs are lost every week.  It isn't.  Just because one thing happens does not mean another thing will follow.  It's false logic, and you obviously were sleeping during Logic 101.

[supranatural]

I am not going to prove any my word because it is true and because if he asks me  to prove why should I believe what Supra (what a nickname!) writes about his RW without his evidences? It could be something like his ex RW told him the truth about him to his face straight and he didn't like it and now he says that she was bad. I have a right not to believe him and I am not a judge to ask evidences.

Although what evidences do you ask me? What I write it is a generalisation and it came from many ways of observation and an experience.

I have more generalisations: that Vietnam and Chinese people are hardworking people, Russians have "Mysterious Russian soul",all bankirs-jews,all Muslims are circumcised,all Ukr women are ...you know   and many other generalisations. Don't you personaly know any?

You talk in general and do not cite specific examples.  If you cited examples either from facts or your own real personal experience I'd take it a bit more seriously.  If you told us your best friend saw 38 prostitutes in UA and none in Russia that we can accept.  However, you have not, instead you make broad sweeping statements such as "UA is prostitutes" which we all know is not true and I've already disproven it and it's clear you are prejudiced.  Or are you going to tell me that my wife is a prostite as well as the women in her family?  In my experience I've seen a lot more prostitutes in Moscow than I have in UA and that is my experience which backs up my arguments.

You don't have to believe me about my ex-RW but that is the assumption that everyone makes here, that when they talk about their own actual personal experience they are telling the truth.  I speak the simple truth - my RW ex-wife nearly bankrupt the family - that has nothing to do with what she says.  I've not quoted her at all, just cited my experience with her.  It's a simple fact, her Moscow family was always asking for money, my UW wife's family never asks for money from me.  If I had to prove my own experience with my RW ex-wife, we might as well all never cite our own personal experience as no one can prove it.  If I said "my RW wife was very kind to me," to prove a point and I was asked to prove it, we might as well ask everyone to provide videos, photographs and sworn court testimony to prove our own personal experience.  It's a stupid assumption mirror and again evidence of your losing argument.  We all have to make a basic assumption here and it is that we are all telling the truth when we say we experienced this or experienced that.  Will you next ask me to provide a marriage certificate to prove my marriage and divorce to my RW ex-wife and current UA wife? 

[supranatural]

Another thing:when one member from this forum asked a question about Ukr being prostitutes if it is true or not one female member of other forum answered that she is an administrator of one biggest hotel in Moscow and she is sick by expelling prosts from a hotel and 90% of them-Ukrs.

So one hotel tells us that all of Ukraine are prostitutes?  And what about the other 10%? Obviously a fair number of Russian women are prostitutes as well. 

There is no question that the vast majority of prostitutes working the hotels and train stations of Moscow are illegial Ukrainian residents without proper propiskas.  When you can't get a job at home, you go where you can and do what you can to support your family and children.   

No question of it?  Ahhh so now you're omniscient eh Shakey?  Get real, produce real evidence of it.  Have you or someone done a census checking passports and verifying it?  Till then it's speculation and again your prejudices here.  I'm sure some of the prostitutes are probably from UA, just as I'm sure some of them are Russian women too.  There's a reason why Russian women are frequently viewed with suspicion in the US - many of them come here to make money as strip dancers and prostitutes as well if the news stories are to be believed.

Now come on, we've strayed a bit from the original postulation - your idea that women are desperate to leave UA.  You have yet to prove that.  All you've done is put forth speculation that may or may not be true, and have no proven causation with women being desperate to marry foreign men.  A closed mind may not work but you seemingly have a mind that simply does not work, period.

[supranatural]

Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.

You can't be serious?

A 7 to 3 breakdown of 10 stories on an internet chat group is hardily statistically significant data.  

So what data points would you provide to prove otherwise?  On the one hand you want us to believe you with your weeks of Russia in country experience and ZERO in country experience in UA.  You barely even qualify as a statistic point then.  On the other hand when more statistic points than your own is provided you question it.  Sounds to me like you wan to be the self proclaimed expert on Russia and Ukraine.  Get off your high horse Shakey.  You hardly qualify as an expert.  In fact, I would qualify as more of an expert than you since I've been married to a woman from each country and spent time in both countries.  But I would never be so arrogant as to proclaim something like that based on my own experience.

Please provide additional data points then.

[shakespear]

More than 30-40%?  You were the one who provided the numbers Shakey.  I see far less the 30-40%.  More like about 10% difference.  Were you asleep during math as well Shakey?  You don't have to have to be a math genius...here are you numbers:  

Inflation Rate:
Russia:   13.4%
Ukraine: 16.4%

Difference of 3%

How dense can you be?  Somebody slept through Business Statistics class but it sure wasn't me.  While it is a 3% DIFFERENCE between the numbers it would be 22.4% WORSE than Russia.  (16.4 - 13.4 = 3.0 /13.4 = 22.4% WORSE than Russia)  

Industrial Output:
Russia:   -14.9%
Ukraine: -23.3%

Difference of 8.4%

Try again.  23.3 - 14.9 = 8.4 / 14.9 = 56.4% WORSE than Russia

Economic Growth:
Russia:   -3.9%
Ukraine: -15.0%

difference of 11.9%  

Not even close - 15.0 - 3.9 = 11/1 /3.9 = 284.6% WORSE than Russia

Currency Vs US Dollar:
Ruble:  -31%
Hryunya:  -38%

difference of 7%  

...sigh...38-31 = 7/31 = 24% WORSE than Russia

Expected 2009 GDP:
Russia:    -3%
Ukraine:  -12%

difference of 9%  

Again - 12 - 3 = 9 / 3 = 300% WORSE than Russia

Stock Market Growth in 2009:
Russia:    53.3%
Ukraine:  44.3%

difference of 9%

53.3 - 44.3 = 9 /44.3 = 20.3% BETTER than Ukraine

Again, I'm done trying to explain something that is indisputable to you.  

[supranatural]

Shakey you are only manipulating numbers to suit yourself.   You divide the numbers to suit yourself to make it look like things are a lot worse in UA than Russia when in fact it's not.  I'll use a simple example to show you how childishly simplistic you are in trying to manipulate the numbers.  Say Olga and Tanya each make $1000 a month.  Say the next year their GDP reduced 10% and 15% respectively so that Olga now makes $900 a month and Tanya makes $850 a month.  The realistic way to look at it is that Tanya saw 5% more of a decrease.  The difference in their buying power is $50 a month, a 5% difference, which does not make Tanya "much" more depressed than Olga.  In YOUR math however, Tanya saw a 50% decrease over Olga and thus, because she her GDP was reduced by 50% and that $50 really killed her ability to survive, she now takes a train to Moscow every day to be a prostitute or she has decided she is going to look for a much older grandfather from the US to take care of her.  See the difference?  The difference is I talk to real world finance guys who make millions of dollars doing what they do, you dabble around a bit in the stock market and think you're an expert.  The difference is you dabble a bit in stocks while I invest in and have been building businesses in emerging countries for the last 15 years or so - I have to know the economy or me and my business partners would not make money.  While you walk around in Russia proclaiming you're an expert in business, my partners and I are busy establishing satellite offices in foreign countries for our business ventures.

And you STILL have not provided correlation that says that supposedly women from UA are more willing to date a much older guy because of their economy.  You still maintain that because of your in country experience in Russia that you are expert in UA - I guess if we carried that further that because you live in the US you must be an expert on Mexico and Canada too eh?

Get real Shakespear, you have not proven a single thing to support your prejudice and IGNORANCE of UA.

[Manny]

Read this forum. In fact, read *any* forum. It is an undeniable fact that most of the train wrecks are with American guys with Ukrainian women.

Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Togliatti"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got scammed in Barnaul"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I met a GCG from Samara"
Did you ever read a topic called, "I got stiffed in Volgograd"

No..... me neither.

I was just reading a recent topic about a scammer from Ivanovo, Russia
Here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=8530.msg121529#msg121529

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

I took you up on the offer, and tallied up the stories in our Train Wreck Room. A total of 10 stories there. (I excluded the threads on Leo, Loyal, and SVOrookie) 
http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?board=46.0

The results?  7 Russian train wrecks, 3 Ukrainian train wrecks. Clearly not an overwhelming majority of Ukrainian train wrecks as you suggest.

Based on the above, I disagree with your generalizations.

Sure blows another big hole in Shakespear's contention that there are a lot more women in UA willing to trade their looks to be with someone old enough to be their father just to get out of UA.

People didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say "Look in our train wreck room", I said "Read the train wrecks" - quite different. Perhaps I was not clear.

Participants here read many places; not just here. The "train wreck" stories are on every forum, even the archives of the closed and abandoned ones. They are on scam sites, blogs........ everywhere. Anyone read the now locked Russian Detective forums? When you read enough of them, you begin to form an opinion. How do you think Lugansk and Odessa got the reputations they have?  :

I mentioned my opinion, based on non scientific conclusions I have formed from many years of reading this type of stuff across many websites. I also formed my conclusion from men I and/or my wife have worked with. Men ask my wife for her verification and evaluation service. That's often when a guy suspects me might be getting set up to be stiffed. Most of those calls are destination Ukraine.

There are no statistics for this stuff anywhere I know of. People can only muse based on their opinion; an opinion that has been honed from experience and/or reading. I am not presenting my opinion as gospel; I am presenting it as my opinion. You can take it or leave it.

I apologize if I was not clear enough yesterday, but I hope that now puts in context my comment:

Read the train wrecks: Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, etc.

Read the GCG stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the DV in the US stories: Mostly Ukraine.

Read the "Wife split" type topics: Mostly Ukraine.

For sure, there are many fabulous women in Ukraine. Many of our members are married to them. I know all about the cultural similarities with Russians etc. But it does seem that most "hard luck" stories come from guys involved with women from Ukraine.

When did we last read about a green card girl from Russia? From Moldova? From Lithuania? From Kaliningrad?

For sure, the figures may appear skewed because for some reason Americans all flock to Ukraine over Russia. Lets debate that maybe?

[supranatural]

Manny I suspect the answer is probably that more men go to UA than Russia.  Just as there is a simple fact that the vast majority of shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water or less - someone like Shakespear would make the conclusion that it's because most sharks live in 3 ft deep water - when in fact the reason most shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water is because that's where more people spend their time at the beach, in 3 ft of water or less.  My most current "go around" looking for someone in the FSU, all the scammers I ran across were only from Russia, none from UA.  If my name were Shakey I'd conclude then that all scammers must be from Russia and I should hightail it over to UA asap.  Of course we are going to get guys like Shakey who pull disparate information and try to link them together as fact and stitch it together with faux logic.

[Manny]

Manny I suspect the answer is probably that more men go to UA than Russia.  Just as there is a simple fact that the vast majority of shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water or less - someone like Shakespear would make the conclusion that it's because most sharks live in 3 ft deep water - when in fact the reason most shark attacks occur in 3 ft of water is because that's where more people spend their time at the beach, in 3 ft of water or less. 

We should leave the "Guys like Shaky" out of this. Don't make it personal. Lets debate the topic at hand like adults.

It is true that perhaps 70% (my guestimate) of Russian speaking women seekers are American. A great many of those guys go to Ukraine (for reasons best known to themselves). It might stand to reason that more scam stories come out of Ukraine for that reason. Lets discuss that?

Lets also discuss the relationship between economics of a country and the desire of the resident women to export themselves? Economics plays a big part in motivation; be that motivation for self-export or motivation for scamming. It therefore stands to reason that poorer countries have more "mail-order bride" activity; which they do. This is further proved by the more affluent FSU countries exporting fewer women than the less affluent ones.