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Author Topic: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?  (Read 25831 times)

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Offline fireeater

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #425 on: September 22, 2009, 03:10:10 PM »

From a more reliable encyclopedia, and I expect dissentants had already been disposed of by then.  ;D But every source I looked at had the same statistics for population breakdown, Russian being only the largest group remaining in the last quarter of the population along with other nationalities, something in the neighbourhood of 17 percent.  tiphat


Hi FE,

I have discussed this with Poles living in the UK - who are in their sixties and eighties... they STRONGLY disagree with your "pedias"..



Well they can argue with the well know one I grew up with here, now on line, but is not the normal one quoted here. frequently  :chuckle:. But I expect it has been in there for some time , and we do have polish people here as well who immigated in the past and present. Even have a polish beauty pagent in this city every year.  ;D 

Offline Halo

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #426 on: September 22, 2009, 11:05:29 PM »
So far I have seen very few facts, only personal opinions, with little or nothing to back them up.  ::)

Everything I have posted about the famine, unless qualified, is historically accurate.  I've posted the names of prominent historians whose works you can read.

The only controversies on this issue are the number of dead, with numbers from 3 million to 13 million, and whether the Holodomor was genocide.  As I have posted, demographic research now puts the deaths at 4 to 4.5 million.  I don't think the "genocide" label will ever be resolved, because it is an opinion.  However, it has also been used solely for political purposes by the current Ukrainian leadership, and clumsily denied by the Russian leadership, also for political purposes.

As I have posted, I don't believe the Holodomor targeted Ukrainians because they were Ukrainian.  They were targeted because, after the success of NEP and Bolshevik policies of Ukrainization, peasants (and, the majority of Ukrainians were peasants) resisted collectivization.  They were targeted as peasants, not Ukrainians.  I don't think a class war amounts to genocide.  Nevertheless, the deliberation and evil of the famine should be recognized.

On WWII, again, everything I have posted can be verified by reading some history, other than the make up of Soviet troops.  That is primarily anecdotal, but I did speak to many Red Army soldiers who survived that initial blitzkrieg, some who were POW's and did not return, and others who were still in the USSR.  There are historians who have researched this issue as well, such as Yuri Shapovel.  


Quote
Historically, Ukraine had large Jewish and Polish populations, particularly in the Right Bank region (west of the Dnieper River). In fact, in the late 19th century slightly more than one-quarter of the world’s Jewish population (estimated at 10 million) lived in ethnic Ukrainian territory. This predominantly Yiddish-speaking population was greatly reduced by emigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and by the devastation of the Holocaust. In the late 1980s and early ’90s, large numbers of Ukraine’s remaining Jews emigrated, mainly to Israel. At the turn of the 21st century, the several hundred thousand Jews left in Ukraine made up less than 1 percent of the Ukrainian population. Most of Ukraine’s large Polish minority was resettled in Poland after World War II as part of a Soviet plan to have ethnic settlement match territorial boundaries

The Jewish populations, as a percentage, were approximately the same in Right Bank and Left Bank Ukraine.  Some cities had larger Jewish populations, but shtetls were far more common on the Left Bank.

In the Tsarist Empire, Jews contended with the Pale of Settlement.  That is why the number of Jews was so low in Russia.  After the Revolution, hundreds of thousands of Jews moved to large Russian cities.  Emigration did play a part of course, predominantly in the Russian Empire.  Most of the Jews who left in the 1970's and 1980's made their way to America rather than Israel.

On resettlement of populations, yes, this did occur.  Over a million Poles were moved from their ancestral lands in Ukraine to Poland (many to Western Poland, resettling in areas previously inhabited by Germans).  Over 450,000 Ukrainians were moved from Polish territories to Soviet Ukraine.  The repatriation of populations was covered in both the Tehran and Yalta Treaties (the most notorious being the repatriation of Cossacks), although the repatriation of ethnic Polish and Ukrainian populations was predominantly covered by a later treaty between the USSR (negotiated by Khrushchev) and Poland's communist party.

Russians were about 4% of Tsarist Empire's ethnic population.  There were policies of Russification in the USSR, and millions were moved to Ukraine after WWII.  However, some of that "Russian" population is the recharacterization of ethnic minorities, such as Germans, and many Russians moved to Ukraine because the Soviets set up industries there, and populations shifted more from rural to urban areas.  The Soviet policy in this regard was not restricted to Ukraine.

ETA - I also would add that Ukrainians had no national consciousness, as a separate ethnic group, until the mid to late 19th century.  Ukrainians of the Russian Empire did not differentiate themselves from what we would now consider "ethnic" Russians.  Part of this is the split of Ukraine between the Right and Left Bank, so there was no one indigenous intellectual elite guiding the entire nation.  Part of this was repression of Ukrainian language, literature, and political thought.  But, the intelligentsia was able to survive because during mid 19th century and beyond repressions on the Left Bank, they moved to the Right Bank, and vice versa.

Offline Halo

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #427 on: September 22, 2009, 11:14:29 PM »
this is half statement half question:
I've noticed that Ukrainian language is basically a mixture of Russian with Polish. that was a statement.
Now the question: Is it possible that an ethnic Ukrainian is a mixture of ethnic Russians and ethnic Poles? It seemst logical that this mixing would have accured right there on Ukrainian territory historically?

I don't think I would characterize the Ukrainian language this way.   Certainly, Polish had an influence, because the Polish nobility had a strong policy of Polonization.  However, it is not a mix.  Both Russian and Ukrainian have East Slavic roots.   


Offline MND

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #428 on: September 23, 2009, 12:43:13 AM »
This will give you some better insight into the language

http://www.101languages.net/ukrainian/history.html

Offline Eduard

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #429 on: September 23, 2009, 05:07:31 AM »
This will give you some better insight into the language

http://www.101languages.net/ukrainian/history.html
thanks! that was an interesting read!

Offline fireeater

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #430 on: September 23, 2009, 07:56:35 AM »
Halo

For the Holodomor, I would agree. No one states that is did not ocuur, only whether it was genocide as the Government claims or for other reasons. The event has been recognized here, as you probably already know, including some memorials for our large populations of Ukrainians. That is why I like Canada. we also recognize who makes up our country, and help keep their cultures alive. But I would also add to your list of why it was more impacted in that country. that they were the next largest producer after Russia, for products.

Politics always creates friction at times, regardless of country. one of the major problems. I do not think we disagree, and you do provided facts which is always better then opinions for identifying areas that can create this friction.  :)