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Author Topic: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?  (Read 25975 times)

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Offline alenika

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2009, 09:58:08 AM »
Please explain to be how ethnic Russian folk ( who still feel Russian ) are the same as "real" Ukrainians who wish to be free of Russian influence?
It was fun for me to read too  ;D According this logic all Georgians and other ethnicities from Caucasus who happen to live in Russia are Russians, Ukrainians who live in Russia are Russians too  :-* And if Russian moves to for example UK they become British and stop being Russians :-)
I close eyes to see better

Offline fireeater

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2009, 10:50:32 AM »
Alenkia

Same with me  ;D  . Now the leader of the opposition here is of Russian Descendent, yet lives in Canada, but also was in the USA for a long time teaching.

Hmmmmm, What is he. American, Canadian, or Russian.  ??? 

If he is Russian, then if elected, Canada just became part of Russia.  :laugh:

Online msmoby

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2009, 12:21:46 PM »

?

Mark,

Moby's posts are like Jazz music. I am sure they are full of genius but sometimes I don't understand a note!

B.

 :o

sorry guys .. :-[

 Alenika "got it?" .. Mirror may be doesn't WANT to "get it"..

Sounds like an excuse for me to call Sparky114 and he can "translate" ;)


Offline Irinka

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2009, 01:39:10 PM »


When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?   


I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2009, 02:00:47 PM »


When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?   


I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.

Irinka it's best to not pay any attention to Mirror on the topic of Ukrainians, for some reason she doesn't like them.

Welcome to the forum there's always someone who wants to know something about the Ukraine so I'm sure anything you can teach us will be valuable.  In return if you want to know anything about the west we'll do our best to answer your questions.
Ipsa scientia potestas est. Knowledge itself is power.   Sir Francis Bacon

Online msmoby

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2009, 02:18:28 PM »

Please explain to be how ethnic Russian folk ( who still feel Russian ) are the same as "real" Ukrainians who wish to be free of Russian influence?

It was fun for me to read too  ;D According this logic all Georgians and other ethnicities from Caucasus who happen to live in Russia are Russians, Ukrainians who live in Russia are Russians too  :-* And if Russian moves to for example UK they become British and stop being Russians :-)

Well I thought *you'd* "understood" :)...


I'm simply asking Mirror why she thinks native Russian speakers living in, what is now, Ukraine are different from Russian speakers separated by a newish border !? ...  Mirror appears to think ALL Ukraine passport holders FEEL Ukrainian - are different... They aren't, of course.

Many of them would be happy to be part of Russia ... example Crimea.. and Russia seems quite happy to keep that pot boiling...

So I think Mirror is "insulting" many ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and Irinka's reaction was a case in point..

I think you are what you feel and your passport isn't that relevant - especially in the case of the FSU states -unless it is a problem for travel ;( 





Offline nunya

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2009, 02:35:40 PM »
When people speak about origin of the nations

The orgins of a nation mirror.  And what is the orgin of your great nation mirror?  You will not like the answer.




Many, and I mean many, Russian's are a little resentful that Ukraine is mother Russia.

Kiev is 500 years older than Moscow.  When Moscoviy was just a little trading outpost on the Moscow River, Kyiv was estimated to be the 5th largest civilization in the world. In fact had it not been for Ghangis Khans grandson destroying the Kiev Rus dynasty in December of 1240, Moscow today would still be nothing more than a mid-size Russian city.

The people of Kiev had something the people of Moscoviy did not have at that time, they had balls. They had the balls to tell the roaming Mongol Tatars nyet, when they came pounding on the Golden gates of the Kremlin fortress Kiev demanding some gold, some silver, some chickens, goats and oh yes, a few of it's women.  No large city up to that time had said no to the Mongol Tatars, but the people of Kiev did.

For 10 weeks and four days the biggest, baddest battering rams could not penetrate the Golden Gates of Kiev. Finally at the Lyndiski Gates, today the present site of Independence Square, the Mongols broke through.

During a bloody two day battle it is estimated that 50,000 men, women and children were killed. About 1000 people escaped with there life's. Of 20,000 structures inside the Kremlin Kiev, two were left standing. One of those, St. Sophia.  In two days a complete civilization was wiped off the planet earth.

In the years 1270-1280 fathers used to tell there children about the land of Rus, the Rus men.  In 1320-1340 grandfathers would tell there children stories about the Rus men and the land of Rus.  During the 1400's, people would pass down stories of the Rus people and the land of Rus.

Finally in about the year 1548-1549, during the time of the first Russian Czar, was the word Russia, Land of Rus, seen written for the first time.

 Rus men.    Land of Rus.   Russia.  


Offline Voyager

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2009, 02:46:55 PM »

sorry guys .. :-[


I got your point Moby, it makes sense to me!




When I was telling about stereotypes about Ukrainians that they are all traitors (this attitude  came from II World War) some men here were very aggresive towards me. Must I be agreesive towards Manny's words about Tatatrs now?  


I big surprise see this theme. You say all Ukrainian mens its traitor? Are you joke?

Thank you for you spit on all Ukrainian mens who fight in Great Patriotic war.

All my fathers of grandparent fight in Soviet armys, only one not fight and work in train. My grandmother tell how she see father first time when he come home with award from army but without any leg. She scared this man her father without any leg and she hide. He very sad because small daughter run away from him.
Grandfather father not come home from war.

They fight in Soviet army, not nazi army maybe you ask this to.

Sorry for bad english
Sorry for angry feeling

You insult to all Ukrainian mens who fight in Soviet army.
You attitude to me is disgust.


Don't worry Irinka, almost everyone is learning either English or Russian (or Ukrainian!  ;D)

And don't worry about "angry feelings" in your post,  it's understandable.

Offline Leo512

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2009, 08:51:57 AM »
I’ve learned recently that the definition of white for some Russians is different than the western definition of whiteness.  A brunette person (dark haired) with the skin with as milk might be considered non white for some groups of Russian neo Nazis according to what I say in some videos (white green eyed brunettes being accused of being “black” and  then slaughtered ).  I even saw some attacks on one Italian (Mediterranean look) and other in an American brunette (white). It seems the color of hair and eyes (dark) and having non Slavic facial gestures plays a major role there instead of the actual colour of the skin.

My guess is (I could be wrong on this) that because there are not many truly dark skinned people in Russia in the sense we know in the west (blacks, Amerindians, Mestizos ,etc) then those groups of neo Nazis had to blame the “blackness” of a person in something else rather than the skin color (as some of the victims are indeed white skinned) and the found in the dark hair or eyes the perfect excuse.  So basically is a matter of nationalism instead of racism (as they cannot claim racial superiority when they are actually slaughtering other whites).

By the way I’ve found that some parts in Sweden people with dark hair and or eyes are far more attractive to the local population, as they are rare items among the sea of blondes. The same happens with blondes in a sea of brunettes (Peru for example), is  just nature at work, people feel attracted to the opposite.

If skincolor defines another race for Americans, why couldn't  haircolor be an indicator for Russians? I do not agree with both classifications but they are both equally invalid stupid criteria!

Online msmoby

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2009, 01:17:35 PM »
1msmoby,

don't ask me any question because I am not going to answer in this topic.
This topic was created by Chris ( I think) so ask him.

Yes, Mirror I understand it is a little disconcerting when a Mod makes a new thread and even entitles it to suit their bias... BUT.. you DID make a TOTALLY "silly" comment with no basis in FACT concerning folk who suddenly became "Ukrainians" overnight..folk who might well say that are more "Russian" than you ;)



This discussion is very slippery so if somebody will be interested to know my private opinion wellcome to PM me and I will tell everything openly  what I know. Kill me! I know too much.

Well, new thread , or not, YOU made a statement and need to BACK UP your contentions with FACTS... You are being asked questions because you made the statement in the open forum .

I am now thinking you CAN'T answer my question - because you KNOW the answer DESTROYS your contention..

Sorry, Mirror.. it is nothing personal - I just HATE it when folk make generalised comments - especially about nations that are created from diverse peoples - especially NEW nations - only one generation old.




Offline mirror

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2009, 08:39:45 AM »
1msmoby,

yes,I can't keep talking to you because I need to learn how to use English words "bullshit, stupid, silly,HATE,  f. off,etc" .

Wait, I will come back to you when I will learn and we will talk.

Offline Leo512

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2009, 08:43:35 AM »
Of course Russians and a lil pissed off, cmon, Ukrainian women are,...., incredibly gorgeous, i know!! :loving:

I am not saying Russians cant be, but overall, Ukrainians,...woot!!

Online msmoby

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 08:47:50 AM »
1msmoby,

yes,I can't keep talking to you because I need to learn how to use English words "bullshit, stupid, silly,HATE,  f. off,etc" .

Wait, I will come back to you when I will learn and we will talk.

How convenient.. !

Offline Wild Orchid

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 09:46:42 PM »
Of course Russians and a lil pissed off, cmon, Ukrainian women are,...., incredibly gorgeous, i know!! :loving:

I am not saying Russians cant be, but overall, Ukrainians,...woot!!
Is it why none of Ukrainians ever won any beauty contests?

The map is for Miss World, it hows countries that won at some point> Do you see Ukraine in color?




Quote
Russia has a total of 3 major international pageants winners: Miss World 1992, Miss Universe 2002 and Miss World 2008. Miss Russia 2007 Ksenia Sukhinova was declared Miss World 2008 at the grand finale in Johannesburg on 13th December, 2008.

Offline Eduard

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2009, 11:11:38 PM »
Considering the fact that most Russians and Ukrainians are of mixed bloods and that probably there are more Ukrainians living in Russia than in Ukraine and also that lots of Russians live in Ukraine I consider this a silly argument. As far as genes are concerned both groups are pretty much the same and you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.

Offline AkMike

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2009, 11:23:44 PM »
A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.

Eduard,
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Thomas Jefferson Quotation, "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

Offline mirror

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2009, 11:43:29 PM »
Of course Russians and a lil pissed off, cmon, Ukrainian women are,...., incredibly gorgeous, i know!! :loving:

I am not saying Russians cant be, but overall, Ukrainians,...woot!!

When I see similar admirations I laugh.

In most cases men take girls in short skirts and with visible underwear like beautyes.  :chuckle:   

Online msmoby

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2009, 01:23:35 AM »
you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

..and you said this argument was "silly"... I/ or someone else could claim the same for Kiev,  Odessa ( in the summer) ..this is a subjective OPINION ;)..


On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.


NONSENSE.. you have made this statement before.. the border with Russia is relatively new.. please tell us how  an ethnic "Russian" lady from Belgorad is "culturally" different from Kharkov ?  A Ukrainian who feels Ukrainian ethnically - is likely to feel VERY differently than a Ukrainian ethnic Russian - who may actively REJECT Ukrainian "culture"

Veta has an old school friend who married a Russian guy and they ended up in UA ( Kiev) for 19 years.. are you saying they / the kids would be culturally different, now ?

It's not like the borders are hard to cross ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15975620@N00/23686645/



Offline Markje

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2009, 01:54:33 AM »
Is it why none of Ukrainians ever won any beauty contests?

Ukraine has not been competing long enough in a beauty contest to win. The orange revolution took place in 2004, meaning they had so far 4 chances to win any miss world contest. Since Russia has been at it since 1951 (when it was invented) and won only 3 times. I think you can not say anything about ukrainian beauties so far. When the numbers are less skewed in 30-40 years , then I would say you can start to compare beauty with this contest.
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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2009, 02:14:20 AM »

Ukraine has not been competing long enough in a beauty contest to win. The orange revolution took place in 2004, meaning they had so far 4 chances to win any miss world contest. Since Russia has been at it since 1951 (when it was invented) and won only 3 times. I think you can not say anything about ukrainian beauties so far. When the numbers are less skewed in 30-40 years , then I would say you can start to compare beauty with this contest.


??

Hi Markje, wasn't UA a nation before the Orange Revolution ?!!

I'm sure it had the right to enter contestants in Beauty pageants ?

Plenty of UA beauties on RU tv and making money in Russia as popstars ;)

Comparing the beauty of ethnic Russian women who are from the same genetic mix over the years and only became officially Ukrainian 20 yrs ago is "silly".. 



Offline Wild Orchid

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2009, 02:18:02 AM »
Is it why none of Ukrainians ever won any beauty contests?

Ukraine has not been competing long enough in a beauty contest to win. The orange revolution took place in 2004, meaning they had so far 4 chances to win any miss world contest. Since Russia has been at it since 1951 (when it was invented) and won only 3 times. I think you can not say anything about ukrainian beauties so far. When the numbers are less skewed in 30-40 years , then I would say you can start to compare beauty with this contest.



What does it have to do with Orange Revolution? Didn't Ukraine exist before 2004? Do you really believe 2004 is the year when Ukraine became an independent state? You don't know much about history of the the country that you visit so frequent this days.

Quote
On July 16, 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine. The declaration established the principles of the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation, its democracy, political and economic independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law on the Ukrainian territory over Soviet law.

The full quote that I posted before.

Quote
Miss Russia Pageant is a Russian beauty pageant for young women. The pageants have been running since the year 1993, however it did not take place in 1994 and 2000. Since 2007 Miss Russia finalists represent Russia in both Miss Universe and Miss World pageants. Russia has a total of 3 major international pageants winners: Miss World 1992, Miss Universe 2002 and Miss World 2008. Miss Russia 2007 Ksenia Sukhinova was declared Miss World 2008 at the grand finale in Johannesburg on 13th December, 2008.

Ukraine could have started from 1990 if they wanted to, may be they didn't have enough beautiful girls back then?





Offline Eduard

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2009, 07:19:40 AM »
you see just as many beautiful women in Russia as in Ukraine if not more. When in Moscow you can easily break your neck looking at gorgeous women all over the place and I'm not joking.

..and you said this argument was "silly"... I/ or someone else could claim the same for Kiev,  Odessa ( in the summer) ..this is a subjective OPINION ;)..


On the other hand there are cultural differences but I believe that they are based not on the ethnicity of people but rather on the place where they are living. A Russian person born and raised in Simferopol will act and have the same values as a Ukrainian person born and raised in that city. And a Ukrainian who is born in Moscow will be just like the other Moscovites.


NONSENSE.. you have made this statement before.. the border with Russia is relatively new.. please tell us how  an ethnic "Russian" lady from Belgorad is "culturally" different from Kharkov ?  A Ukrainian who feels Ukrainian ethnically - is likely to feel VERY differently than a Ukrainian ethnic Russian - who may actively REJECT Ukrainian "culture"

Veta has an old school friend who married a Russian guy and they ended up in UA ( Kiev) for 19 years.. are you saying they / the kids would be culturally different, now ?

It's not like the borders are hard to cross ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15975620@N00/23686645/



moby, you are so thick-sculled...not a surprise to see you coming out with a statement like this!It takes a native to understand cultural differences because they are not as obvious to a westerner, particularly a westerner with a thick skull who "thinks" he knows it all! You make this constant white noise that I don't even bother to read most of the time, but coming out with "NONESENSE" addressing me, the man who's father is from Ukraine, mother is from Russia, who spent plenty of time in both places, has family in both places and truly understands the languages and both cultures is just not very bright.

Offline fireeater

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2009, 08:05:06 AM »
Wild Orchid

Marke may be right about that competition results Checking on Canada's history with Miss World, we only started in 2003 having a contestant. And it is separate from the Miss Universe competition which has been around the same length of time. Probably why I am not as familiar with Miss World as I am with Miss Universe. For us it is not even the same lady going to both. So it could be when someone thought to start it in the country, rather then when the country could do this.  :nod:

Yet checking the results this year for Miss Universe both the Russian and Ukrainian ladies seem to have the same rating . Which says to me neither is better then the other for looks.  ;D 

http://www.missuniverse.com/members/contestants/sortBy:rating





Offline Eduard

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2009, 09:29:27 AM »
judging the whole nation of women according to who won the pagent doesn't make much sense to me. I've travelled the world quite a bit and I can honestly say that I have seen stunning looking women pretty much everywhere among any ethnic group. The only difference is IMO is in average looking women. And on average there are a lot more pretty women in Russia and Ukraine than for example in Austria. But any one who says that the women are prettier in Ukraine than in Russia probably hasn't ever been to Russia.
I've spent quite a bit of time in both Kiev and Moscow and IMO Moscow can not be beaten when it comes to the number of beautiful women. Interestingly enough a large percentage of them came from Ukraine  :biggrin: or were born to parents who came to Russia from Ukraine  ::)
You also might be surprised to learn that some of those hot girls in Ukraine might have a Russian last name...  :biggrin:

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Re: Why the Friction Between some Russians and Ukrainians?
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2009, 04:27:04 PM »
This is a map of the countries who had won Miss Universe contest:

Still it doesn't make sense to me to jugde a whole nation based on beauty pageant contest, a lot of interest (political ones for example) are involved in order to determine the winner.





And the Miss International map:




The Mexican girl who won the contest was from Monterrey, she received a lot of bad press here because she was arrested later by the police for driving completely drunk with her boyfriend in San Pedro (Greater Monterrey)........