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Author Topic: How to be a Guest  (Read 43394 times)

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Offline mendeleyev

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How to be a Guest
« on: July 30, 2009, 05:30:26 AM »
How to be a guest

Returning from the dacha last week as the train approached Moscow, Mrs. Mendeleyeva mentioned that she wanted for us to pay visits to several families before my return to the USA.

One family was arriving from Kaluga to visit us, and we would pay a quick visit to others before my departure. That brought to mind that perhaps a good topic might be "how to be a guest."

So I'll begin with some bullet points, with explanations, and other members can add to them.


- You're in another culture so don't make the assumption that things are done here just like back home.

That seems pretty obvious but even the most experienced traveler or expat can make a misstep.

The driver of the car below assumed that the trolley would slow down for him. The trolley bus driver can't just stop on a dime and hoped the car driver would stop on time.



(Meeting of assumptions gone wrong.)


An acquaintance was invited to attend an evening dinner party in a Moscow home and related that his hosts seemed offended when he declined to teach them any American folk songs. He felt such a request was silly and said that singing old folks songs was "childish."

I asked if the group had stayed around the table after dinner and had they begun to sing old Russian folk songs while enjoying dessert and tea. "Why yes," he replied, "I was surprised that a young and contemporary group would find such old Russian songs to be of interest."

"Bad assumption" was my response. I've met thousands of Russians of all ages and have yet to meet the person, no matter the age, who didn't know the words to anywhere from 15-20 or even more old folk songs. They're learned at home, in the children's garden (kindergarden), at school clubs and outings, sung around the campfire, while driving, and in homes around the dinner table, etc. Its something seldom found in an American home, but very common in millions of Russian homes. Just in case you weren't paying attention--age doesn't matter.

Even if you don't know true folk songs, fake it! Russian love to learn about other cultures and enjoy singing together on festive occasions. I've been at stylish dinner parties where I've asked to lead and all I could think of was "Happy Birthday" (to no one in particular) and the "Alphabet" song while racking my brain to come up with others.  :chuckle:

You'd be amazed at how many non-English speaking Russians know at least parts of those songs and would be delighted to learn the rest of the words and how to form them correctly. Knowing English language songs is a sign of status in certain circles.

He interpreted their request as embarrassing and childish. They also made an unfortunate judgement about him: Lack of interest in one's own home culture in their minds equaled a lack of intelligence, lack of status within his home culture, or both.

Now this doesn't mean that you'll automatically be asked to sing Western folk songs the first time you visit a Slavic family. But then again you might. No kidding.

In the FSU, do as the locals do. Don't make assumptions.




- Be on time, even if nobody is on time for you.

Recently I shared with a Russia media colleague my amusement that in Moscow, capital of Russia, where reminders of the Great Patriotic War (WWII) make it seem like yesterday and where victory parades recalling battles which happened almost 70 years ago still draw hundreds of thousands of participants, there are two popular German language radio stations based in Moscow with respectable numbers of listeners!

"They're punctual" was his humourous retort, before bringing up the reminder that the only time the Germans have been late was in October 1941, the date that Hitler wanted his generals to have completed the German battle for Moscow.

Russians may not be punctual themselves, but they value you for it.



- A bear protects her den and her cubs.

Be very careful about getting on the wrong side of a Russian/Ukrainian lady's family, home, country, culture, etc.


Red Army defends Moscow.


She will find it odd if you speak ill of your family, your friends, your culture, your home, etc. But an even more serious offense is if you speak or act disparingly regarding her family, her friends, her country and her culture.

Just as important, she will feel that others are watching her and evaluating her choice. They are. Don't embarrass her.




- Dress for the part.

In the photo below each participant is dressed appropiately for their role in this parade. The Priest is dressed like a priest and the deacon like a deacon. The Солдаты look like soldiers and the policeman like a professional милиционер.





May we be honest? I'm often embarrassed by Americans who visit Russia and Ukraine. You can spot some American bride hunters from 500 billion yards away--they're the clueless nutcases in shorts and sandals walking next to a girl decked out to the "nines."

It gives me the urge, of which Mrs. Mendeleyeva usually has to restrain me, from confronting the dude with a little sarcasm by asking how he would have looked next to this girl had he decided to dress casually for the day.

Does he really think that she was thrilled to see how he prepared to spend the day with her as much as she prepared for the day with him?

Magnify that a trillion times when going to her home to meet family. Do you understand that this meeting is a job interview?

Dress the part.

How you dress is a reflection of what you think of the person on the date. And what you think of her family.




- Remember who you're there to visit.

Hint: Its not the girl!

You are badly mistaken if thinking you're come to her home to visit the girl. You are there for one reason, and one reason only: For her to guage what her family thinks of you.

Thats it.

Don't ever underestimate the power of influence held by her family. This is a family oriented society--supposedly at least it's one of the excuses you give to friends when they pigeonhole you about why you traveled abroad for a wife. It's not just a cliche to her. It's real, even though you don't yet understand even the half of it.

So be on your best behaviour and let her take the lead. Be polite, make friends with her family and create an atmosphere where her family wants to bring you back again...and again...and again. That is often the key for your success against the guy down the street who has an eye for her too.




- Pay attention to children and the elderly in her home/family.

Russians often judge you by your attitude towards children.





Russians idolize children. They worship grandmothers. If you can't do both then save yourself the trouble and find a bride from somewhere else in the world. It'll protect your sanity.

A wise man once taught that while the key to a man's heart is through his stomach, the key to a woman's heart is through her children.

What if she doesn't have any children? She does. Trust me.

They may not be her's biologically, but rare is even the young Russian lady who isn't known by at least two titles: Тетя and Крестная мать. Тетя means "aunt" and that can be either/both a literal or honorary title. Крестная мать is "godmother" and also rare is the Russian lady who isn't a Крестная мать to the child of a very close friend.

Unlike Western culture where aunt and godmother may not have much lasting meaning, Тетя and Крестная мать generally have deep meanings and come with long-lasting relationships for your lady.

That means you should strive for a title too--Дядя (uncle). It will carry you a long way and again, may determine why she chooses you over any other guys who may be writing and sending her flowers.

Someday if you're lucky she'll make you a Папа! (Papa = "Dad")




- Who brought the шоколад?

You did. You are the man! You remembered to bring the "zha-ka-lat." While Russians love to taste chocolate from other countries, American milk chocolate usually is a little too sweet for Russian taste buds. Dark chocolate will allow you to conquer Eastern Europe!

There are plenty of fine dark chocolates made in the West. Fill up a suitcase and all the Russia's will be yours! If only Napoleon and Hitler had known.





It is considered proper to bring a gift for your hosts. That would be for her mother, her father and any grandparents present in the home. As you may not know until your arrival who will be there, it's a good idea to have some sort of discrete generic/all purpose/all gender gift stash for the unexpected. Small things like postcards of your city/state, photo book of your state, etc, do nicely here.

You're not expected to play "Santa Claus" with a bag of goodies, but a nice chocolate can be a family gift, a small bouquet of flowers (3-5-7, etc) for мама (yep, its the same word in Russian) and to honour your lady a larger bouquet or some nice perfume is appropiate for a first visit. Her отец (father) should receive something and that can be as simple as an ink pen with your company logo or a small "shot" glass from your state, etc.

If she has children, yes, by all means but please keep it small and simple. Don't offer to play Santa Claus and don't build the expectation that you are Santa Claus.

Note: A bottle of wine is appropiate but bringing vodka on a first visit can be very tricky. First, it's a signal that you are there to drink. That is not the signal you want to send. Second, a suitor who is there to propose to the girl's father brings vodka traditionally. Are you there to do that on a first visit?




- Whoever said you shouldn't discuss religion and politics was misinformed.

You've been fed a line that Russian's are interested in politics. Russians are ambivalent about Russian politics because they don't believe their opinions mean much.

But don't mistake that for disinterest.

Your Russian wife is not disinterested in American (or Canadian or British) politics, she just doesn't understand it and her legal status may not stimulate great interest in it either. Again, don't mistake her comments that she's not interested for a declaration of disinterest.

If you want to see how interested the supposedly disinterested Russians are about politics, just introduce the topic and tell a joke. 5 hours later, as long as tea and vodka are in supply, the topic will have continued. And that is disinterest?

Fact is, regarding both politics and religion, I'm betting that those subjects are brought up on a lot of first visits! Russians hear stories of weird cults in the West and some family member may decide to test your mettle.

They really are interested in your view of politics. In fact, I'll boldly take that further:

1) They're interested in your view of politics in your home country.
2) They're interested in your view of politics in Russia (or Ukraine).

I'll bet the farm on it and win 99.99999999% of the time.

Regarding religion: always be honest about your views. Look for a lady who has similar views. Don't be misled however by young girls of pre-child bearing years who brush off religion. Those are the first ones who have a miracalous conversion the moment that little clear line turns blue in the $10 home pregnancy test kit she purchased at Walgreens. Next stop is the nearest Orthodox church for confession and life as you know it has changed permanently.

See our thread on Orthodoxy here at RUA and if you've been told by others than religion has died out in the FSU, then please call the Kremlin and inform President Medvedev. He's under the impression, after all he does live there and you only visit, that not only is the population regaining interest, but in Russia's two major religions (Orthodoxy and Islam) the Russian government uses the term "explosion" to describe the growth of faith especially in the under 30 age group. According to the government 67% of Russians consider themselves as Orthodox "believers" and that's up from 51% less than 9 years ago.

You're actually safer to go for a lady over 30, who has already experienced childbirth, if you want to be certain your future wife will be relatively uninterested in religion.

So, to recap: its okay to talk about religion and politics. But don't overdo it and don't get into theological or political debates.

Think about this: There is a great amount of tension now between the USA/UK/Canada and Russia. One of my fellow members of the Yahoo Russian Answers team recently described his (mistaken) views on how NATO supposedly plans to encircle Russia with nuclear weapons aimed at the heart of Russia. He then went on to share his view on the USA's bombing of Japan saying that the only reason it was done was because the American Army was lazy.

Notwithstanding his ignornace of the Japanese war front, there are lots of worries that Russian folk on the street have about the West, and in particular the leaders of NATO--USA, UK, and Canada.

Before her father and uncles, her mother and aunts, and her cousins and friends talk her out of the idea of building a relationship with you, don't listen to those who say you shouldn't talk about it. Be gracious, point out the good things you've learned about Russia/Ukraine, and have a reasoned approach to how things work in your country. Build friendships in her family by demonstrating you have the abiltiy to think about those things.

Note to those who think that bashing their own country will earn points: That is foolish. Russians don't want a heated debate with you, but they don't want you to be a pushover either. If you think your country is weak and wrong, then why the heck would you want their daughter to move there with you? Use your God given brain for once. Heck, try it twice in one week to see how it feels.

You can admit your country has shortcomings. Russians certainly know it about their own government. But they don't want you to criticize their country and they don't feel comfortable hearing you criticize your own home either.


Read the sign, be logical.


In summary, don't be afraid to discuss. But don't be drawn into an argument. Give compliments about her culture even if you don't like her government.

Don't let a short skirt blind you to potential future trainwrecks regarding things like politics or religion. There are other short skirts all across the country. Use the big head for decision making.




- Don't be afraid to try new things.

Ever had scrambled eggs with fish? Em, with the bones still in the fish? With no advance warning?

There are some things you should not try in Russia/Ukraine. Scrambled eggs with fish and bones is worth avoiding.

But there are a lot of interesting things worth trying for the first time! Like Kvas. In the photo below you see a KVAS stand. It's basically a small tank pulled by a trailer and filled with a concontion that Russians think is a cola. Russians will tell you that its not alcoholic. Right, and my godmother is the tooth fairy too.





You won't like it, I promise. But you really should try it! Its well, interesting. Call it an acquired taste. But if you work at it, you'll acquire one! Eventually.

KVAS is a mildly fermented bread drink made from stale rye bread. Yum! It can be purchased in 1 liter bottles in markets but the most popular way to enjoy KVAS is from a sidewalk tank. Why, who knows how long it's been standing there...days...weeks....and did we mention "fermented."

The legal drinking age in Russia, as if anybody cared, is 16. That is why you'll have to fight your way thru a line of 11 year old boys in order to get your own glass of KVAS.

Did somebody say "glass" of the substance? Mendeleyev will never forget his very first KVAS experience. It was in Moscow and my (future) wife and I were out on a Saturday afternoon. I was a "KVAS virgin." That all changed that fateful day.

Moscow has modernized the health rules but in those days right after the fall of the Soviet Union you just shared a metal (tin) drinking cup with the other 12 million residents of Moscow when drinking KVAS. That gave me pause. I watched the little babushka wipe off the cup with her apron (it was stained from a million earlier wipes) and then she held that cup up to the spigot and a muddly brown liquid appeared as if by magic.

Great! "Dear God," I thought to myself. Yes, "Dear God," suddenly dawned on me. So, I made the sign of the cross (I'm practicing Orthodox) and gulped it down in one motion. "You should savor it" were the words directed at me from the gorgeous creature who had broken my "KVAS virgin status."

(Oh, Right. I'm going to savor a muddy brown liquid made of stale bread crumbs and which has been standing out in the street in a metal tank for God knows how long and served by a lady who seemed to be "shower challenged" and dispensed in a tin cup shared by the whole world but wiped off between uses by her dirty apron.)

So of course after she said, "you should savor it," I calmly responded with something close to "wow, that was tasty. Man, I was thirsty. Good stuff. Lets' do that again. But at another time. Okay...where is that Metro station?"

We have a KVAS recipe here in the RUA recipes thread. Most Russians make it at home and KVAS recipes are held as valuable secrets with each family having their own twist on how to make it perfectly.

Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to try something new. You'll have lots of opportunities and most of what you try, whether its a new food, KVAS, or an evening at the Ballet, will be an experience you'll always treasure.  :)

Offline froid

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2009, 07:13:46 AM »
Hahaha...love this article.  It says things that I believe are my secrets to enjoying travelling ANYWHERE!

Quote
In the FSU, do as the locals do. Don't make assumptions.

Travelling anywhere, this is a good thing to remember and will enhance your travelling experience. 

I never got to hear any songs, but this reminds me of the Swedish "Toast" while drinking.  They sing their toasts.  When drinking with Swedes and they start to sing toasts you will impress them if you can remember a few lines of any English drinking song for sure. 

Quote
May we be honest? I'm often embarrassed by Americans who visit Russia and Ukraine. You can spot some American bride hunters from 500 billion yards away--they're the clueless nutcases in shorts and sandals walking next to a girl decked out to the "nines."

To paraphrase, dress as the locals do as well!  This also helps you to avoid the tourist scams and pickpockets.  If you dress like a tourist you get treated like one.  I always try to blend in myself.  If that means all the tourists around me are in shorts and might be more comfortable and I have pants and a jacket on, oh well.  Also gives you a chance to get the Russian price for some things too, as long as you dont open your mouth. 

Quote
1) They're interested in your view of politics in your home country.
2) They're interested in your view of politics in Russia (or Ukraine).

The one sentence that you will hear is "What do you think of Russia?"  This open ended question can lead anywhere of course.  You can compare Russia to home, Russia to other places you have travelled.  You can talk about Russian people, food, places, art, architechure and politics.  One thing that can help you avoid any pitfalls in politics discussions is to seperate the politics and the people.  If you can say something like "As a Canadian I do not like some of the politics of Russia, but the people are wonderful and welcomeing" and mean it, you will find yourself in a fun discussion of politics that is not insulting to anyone because as people you are outside the politics.  Mendy...would that be your reaction as well? 

Wheeee...new things...caviar with breakfast.  Meat jelly.  Black porrige.  Seeing a hockey game in person and the only drink available is Kvas!  (Boy I missed beer that day)  Lots of smoked, dried fish.  Smoked uncooked bacon.  Mors. (Yummy!) 

As a side note...does anyone ever mix Kvas with other alcohol?  I keep trying kvas but haven't acquired the taste for it yet...I now have the urge to try it WITH something. 

Look, we're gonna spend half the night driving around the Hills looking for this one party and you're going to say it sucks and we're all gonna leave and then we're gonna go look for this other party. But all the parties and all the bars, they all suck. <-Same goes for forums!

Offline Jared2151

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2009, 07:50:18 AM »

  I went to a Russian festival last summer.  They had 16 0z. cans of KVAS and I just had to try some.  I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't what was in my mouth.
BTW, it was the same brand as shown in Mendy's recipe.  I even thought, maybe it's because it's in an aluminum can ....

  Anyway, I could hardly spit it out in front of all those people around me.  The saving grace was that it was a hot day.  The KAVAS was cold and I was thirsty.  After nursing it for awhile it did kind of grow on me.  If I had to describe it, I'd have to say it was like ginger ale or 7-UP that had rye bread soaking in it.  I still have the empty can as a souvenir of my first taste of KVAS.


Offline shakespear

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 08:01:42 AM »
EXCELLENT posting overall -
One Comment -

How to be a guest

Note: A bottle of wine is appropriate but bringing vodka on a first visit can be very tricky. First, it's a signal that you are there to drink. That is not the signal you want to send. Second, a suitor who is there to propose to the girl's father brings vodka traditionally. Are you there to do that on a first visit?

My experience that a bottle (pint rather than fifth) of expensive bourbon is GREATLY appreciated by the papa of the house.  I'm talking about single barrel 95-proof aged 8 or more year stuff.  Lables like Woodford Reserve, Knobb Hill, Blantons or 1792 Ridgemont Reserve.  You absolutely can't find such a product in Russia and it gives him something he can proudly share with his friends and neighbors.   
"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun" - Katharine Hepburn

Offline froid

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 08:20:22 AM »
Mila's father really enjoyed his Canadian rye whiskey that I brought him.  And we only tasted it when I was there.  He still has some even and rations it out sparingly it is so rare in Penza.  It did not mean time to drink really.  That happened ANYWAY. 

Mila's mother enjoyed trying the Canadian ice wine I brought her, although she thought it was TOO sweet.  She ended up deciding it would be good to put into tea and finished it off.

The second time I visited I met Mila's sister and father.  We all met at sisters bf's family dacha for banya and food.  At one point they were feeding me vodka and food and someone asked "What do Canadian's make to drink?".  I listed beer, wine, rye whiskey and vodka.  I mentioned that one vodka is even made from iceberg water too.  They were impressed with that and exclaimed..."Why didn't you bring THAT!  We want!".  I told them that bringing vodka to a Russian would be like bringing a glass of water to a drowning man.  They laughed.   

Next visit they all got to try Iceberg Vodka. ;) 
Look, we're gonna spend half the night driving around the Hills looking for this one party and you're going to say it sucks and we're all gonna leave and then we're gonna go look for this other party. But all the parties and all the bars, they all suck. <-Same goes for forums!

Offline froid

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 08:33:37 AM »
Mendy...maye you should have also mentioned the elaborate spreads of food that you will encounter in peoples homes as well?
Look, we're gonna spend half the night driving around the Hills looking for this one party and you're going to say it sucks and we're all gonna leave and then we're gonna go look for this other party. But all the parties and all the bars, they all suck. <-Same goes for forums!

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 12:05:03 PM »
Froid, I will. Thanks!  tiphat



Quote
My experience that a bottle (pint rather than fifth) of expensive bourbon is GREATLY appreciated by the papa of the house.  I'm talking about single barrel 95-proof aged 8 or more year stuff.  Lables like Woodford Reserve, Knobb Hill or 1792 Ridgemont Reserve.  You absolutely can't find such a product in Russia and it gives him something he can proudly share with his friends and neighbors.

Skakespear, good point! Each New Year's I make sure that all our male uncles and cousins (father is deceased) have a pint of Kentucky whiskey. That was originally a request from one cousin and it was, as you say, a great idea. I'd probably be lynched upon arrival now if I didn't have any as New Years gifts.  :laugh:

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 02:47:48 AM »
-You are the most interesting man in the world--at least for now.

One of my favourite Russian movies is Папа, based on Alexandr Galych’s play “Matrosskaya Tishina.” “Papa” is the story of a Jewish father who dreamed of seeing his son Dodik perform on a stage in front of huge audiences. The movie treks their journey to Moscow and the beginnings of fame, but quickly the war changes everything and his father sadly loses his life in a Nazi concentration camp while on the Eastern Front, Dodik, who has been drafted into the Army, loses an arm and his dream of playing the violin.

You can see that movie with English subtitles here. "Papa" is set in a very small Russian village and one day "David," a character played by Yegor Beroyev, returns to visit the village. David was a former resident who immigrated to Palestine and upon his return is the talk of the town and centre of attention. Why? Because he had been to the outside and the townspeople lived that experience thru his eyes.

For the residents in this little village the character David was the most interesting man in the world. Now I don't wish to impart the notion that Russian's cannot or do not travel. They love to travel! The truth is however that most Russians will be limited by visa and money constraints to what Russians call the "near abroad." That is code speak for the other former Soviet republics around Russia's borders.

Whether you've been to Jamaica, Mexico, Egypt, or to West Virginia, you're a world traveler from across the ocean sitting right there in their living room and every neighbor is jealous.

So go ahead and share if the timing is right. Don't brag, but don't be afraid to share if invited either. Be sure to paint pictures and be descriptive with your words. Saying that "Paris sucked" will be a disappointment. What they wanted to hear was details about sights, sounds, and cultures.

Remember the travel angle when thinking of gifts. A small box of chocolates from Heathrow airport suddenly makes the chocolate larger than life because of where you found it. A wood carving you purchased on a Utah Indian reservation becomes an item of great mystery because of it's origins.




- Be a good tourist.

The Russian word for tourist is турист. They know you're not a native from lots of clues: clothing, shoes, hair style, the way you walk, etc. So since you won't be able to hide it, be a good diplomat for your country.

Show respect for the people and the culture. You may not like it that all the heat in a bus is recycled into the engine compartment. Its not as comfortable when the primary heat source is body heat from passengers. But that is what keeps engine blocks on older buses from freezing and cracking in extreme cold.

One day a few years back Mrs. Mendeleyeva and I spotted some watermelon at a corner street kiosk near our apartment house. Russians eat very seasonally like American's did at one time. It's a factor of transport networks and availability. We hadn't seen any watermelon for weeks so late in September, so sure enough, there was a long line and we had to wait our turn.

This was just after I had undergone a surgery for an issue with my back and I felt lucky to be out walking, and certainly in no mood to bend over, lift heavy items, etc. While waiting Mrs Mendeleyeva turned and asked me if the Metro tickets we had purchased earlier were in my jacket pocket.

Knowing they were, I fished around in both pockets in order to hand them over to the family "ticket master." In pulling out the tickets a loose piece of paper fell to the ground. It was a useless item of no value and while normally I'd have bent over to fetch it, on this occasion I decided to let it go.

In only a matter of seconds I felt something like wood thumping on my shoulder. Turning slowly to see what was happening I looked into the stern eyes of an old pensioner дедушка (grandfather). Easily in his late 70s to mid 80's, he thumped me again, gently but enough to certain make his case. Pointing to the ground he asked whether I planned to pick up the little piece of paper?

Truthfully, I hadn't planned on it but realized that I was now marching to the drumbeat of an old man who wanted me to respect his city, his country, and his culture. The way he spoke I knew he assumed I was Russian and to avoid being chided I started to bend over, although it was painful, because I do respect people like him and the sacrifices his generation made in some very difficult years.

My lovely wife beat me to it and then proceeded to scold me for bending over while apologizing and explaining graciously to the дедушка about my back. His stern face softened, but I got the point. To paraphrase the American regional idiom, "Don't mess with Texas."






Fill in the trash blanks:

The red label reads алюминий: a-l-u-m- - - - -. Do you know this word?

The yellow label says пластик: p-l--s-t- -k. What is this word?

The blue label may be difficult. Do you know what бумага; b-y-m-a-g-a means? Hint: Its not glass but it does represent things made from something found in a forest.

When traveling, remember that you're more than a tourist. You're a diplomat for your country, your culture, and other men on this adventure. Act responsibility.

Offline jb

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 05:58:10 AM »
So far no one has mentioned "Balzam", (БАЛЪЗАМ), adding a little Balzam to kvass makes it almost drinkable.
I was anti-obama before it was cool

Offline Ralph Kramden

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2009, 06:59:45 AM »
Kvas is russian root beer but tastes like liquid rye bread.
One of these days, Alice. Pow! Zoom! To the moon.

Offline froid

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2009, 07:18:27 AM »
Ironically...both Kirill and Mila HATE Root beer.  They say it tastes like medicine.  I buy it now because I am assured that Kirill wont drink it all on me. ;)
Look, we're gonna spend half the night driving around the Hills looking for this one party and you're going to say it sucks and we're all gonna leave and then we're gonna go look for this other party. But all the parties and all the bars, they all suck. <-Same goes for forums!

Offline patman67

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2009, 10:42:11 AM »
Very good (and entertaining) post! You're really describing something that has been lost in the West...the "art" of courtship,what our grandfathers had to do "back in the day", just to get a date!

I might add, that if there is something unique about your region, it may make a nice gift for the 'rents...for instance, I live close to the Bourbon region, so a pint of Kentucky bourbon that can only be found here would be a unique and thoughtful gift for papa. Or, being from a farm family, a jar of mom's homemade preserves for mama (along with flowers, natch)...it will say something about you and your background, and help you to stand out from the crowd...

On the subject of children...some of the RW I am currently writing go absolutely NUTS when I send them a picture of me and my youngest nephew...he was only a month old at the time, and I'm holding him and giving him a kiss on the forehead..now I know why! :)

Again, great post! I guess we should keep in mind what one of my old bosses told me..."It's all about the show".....

Offline patman67

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2009, 10:56:19 AM »
My experience that a bottle (pint rather than fifth) of expensive bourbon is GREATLY appreciated by the papa of the house.  I'm talking about single barrel 95-proof aged 8 or more year stuff.  Lables like Woodford Reserve, Knobb Hill, Blantons or 1792 Ridgemont Reserve.  You absolutely can't find such a product in Russia and it gives him something he can proudly share with his friends and neighbors.   


My trip to Europe revealed that whiskey-loving Europeans are absolutely nutty over Bourbon and Tennessee whiskey...I would think that a pint from the distillery (one that even we can't buy in stores) would be prized...even in Ireland,  home of Jameson's and Bushmills, pints of small-batch Woodford, Bakers, and Maker's Mark were accepted with almost embarrassing gratitude (and rounds of free drinks!)...

Offline alenika

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2009, 10:55:36 PM »
Kvas is russian root beer but tastes like liquid rye bread.
Kvas is better than beer, it is at least not bitter  :) I wonder more not that people drink kvas, but when people drink beer. Or smoke, or drink any kind of alcohol - it's all not tasty, not healthy, but people still doing it a lot.
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2009, 06:54:19 AM »
Alenika, Mrs. Mendeleyeva encouraged me to kick the cola/soda habit (successfully). KVAS is not a cola, and she says that KVAS is healthy, almost like a nutritional drink. Do you think the same?

Offline ECR844

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2009, 07:05:49 AM »
"Mendy,"

Would it be possible for you to touch on the customs and expectations about the gift giving for family and relatives at a first meeting? What are your thoughts on the paradigm of  expectations, perceptions and 'value' of the gifts? At what point is the newbie expected to make that leap from the simple initial gift to the more intimate and expensive ones?

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2009, 08:19:41 AM »
- Forget about the "carbs"--at least for now.

Dacha life is really good to me. In the two weeks we spent at our summer dacha just recently I had the good fortune to drop 11 lbs. A constant diet of fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts and berries really recharges the body.

We did have fish from the river but not at every meal. Of course a Russian table always has bread. At every meal bread is present.

What is bread in Russia? Everything.

That is not an empty statement. In Russia and Ukraine, bread is the most important foodstuff. Bread is a notion of hospitality. Bread is life. A Russian proverb says: "Bread is the head of everything."

Most bread in Russia, unlike bread in the West, is loaded with nutrition, brimming with vitamins and minerals. You can feel from its weight that there is more to this bread than just some processed flour.

In a Russian home, without bread there is no breakfast, no lunch and no dinner.





хлеб и соль (bread and salt) is the traditional way of greeting guests in Russian tradition and while your hosts will not meet you in traditional costumes with a literal bread and salt presentation for your visit, the idea is the same. You are a guest and as such have been invited to break bread and enjoy their hospitality.

Even if you don't eat bread normally at home, you should here when a guest. Its not just on the table "in case" or as filler, bread is truly part of the meal. Sometimes butter is spread over the bread and then topped with caviar (very tasty!) or perhaps with butter and then a slice of cheese or with a slice of fresh cucumber or a sliced pickle.

Eat up! When Russians share their bread with you, its a sign of acceptance.




- Smile when it means something.

Undoubtedly you've heard that Russians don’t smile. That is not totally true and so perhaps an explanation is in order.

Usually all it takes is to be confronted by just one or two unfriendly or disengaged Russian sales clerks or airline employees and the stereotype that Russians seldom smile is forever burned into your memory.

Russians are well aware that they don't smile often, as do Americans, for example. That doesn't bother them either. In fact, excess smiling in Russian culture means that you're up to something.

Now this is not a tutorial on how to walk around frowning and appearing to be depressed. We'd be speaking truthfully in saying that Russians are surprised to learn that we Westerners think they frown all the time!

When asked about Americans and why we smile so much of the time, Russians find it difficult to reconcile the idea of politeness with smiling or even friendliness with a smile!

Russians smile when something brings them pleasure or makes them happy. They do not even think of a connection between a smile and being friendly.

For us from the outside, it's easy to nod and smile at a complete stranger on the Metro. That person however may be wondering why you've targeted them and what is "up your sleeve" so to speak. Now true that as more and more Westerners have brought our non-stop teeth flashing smiles to the FSU, the residents here have grown used to our oddness and aren't as puzzled about it any longer. But that doesn't mean they're about to do the same.

You may notice too that when Russians do smile they don't like to show their teeth. While we wonder if they do so out of fear of revealing bad dental work, the truth is that Russians equate broad smiles with full teeth exposure to be similar to certain zoo animals that do the same! Russians fear broad smiling with generous exposure of teeth as a sign of something fake, like candy.

In summary, a Russian smile will always have a reason behind it that is clear to everyone present. That’s why excess smiling in Russia is a sign of insanity. A Russian smile accents the mouth lines and dimples, but minimizes teeth.


Lovely Slavic smile!


Russians have idiomatic expressions about smiling, such as: Идеалом русской женщины является неулыбчивая женщина. That is translated as “a perfect Russian woman is an unsmiling woman.” Now allow me to translate that more literally into a phrase more easy to understand. It means "the ideal Russian woman is a woman who isn't insane!"

That is good to know when you notice that your friend isn't smiling. Unless you sense that something is wrong, she's probably "normal" and that is a comforting thought!  :)


So, should you try not to smile while in Ukraine and Russia? Well, smiling is so ingrained in our culture that no matter how hard you may try, this is something you'll do from habit.

So rather than tell you to change, hopefully this is encouragement to help you understand the implications of your smiles...and also to help you understand what it means when a Russian does (or doesn't) smile back at you.


Just keep an eye out for Russians who smile excessively. They're either crazy or up to something!  :chuckle:

"Here's smiling at you kid!"

Offline patman67

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2009, 08:46:43 AM »
Mendy, I am truly enjoying this thread...and you are answering a LOT of questions before they are asked.

On smiling...when I was in college, FSU (no, not THAT FSU, the one in Tallahassee, FL) had an exchange program with Moscow Art...I made friends witha few inner city Moscow Russian guys who wanted to do something "very American"...so we took them to Mardi Gras! Needless to say, that was quite an experience for all of us!

A few weeks later, one, Vladimir, having returned to the USSR (this was still in the Soviet era), sent a letter to one of my friends...he told us, since returning to Moscow, he and Iggy were constantly being given hard stares from everyone, including the police...seems they were still experiencing some euphoria from their experience, and couldn't get the "sh*t-eating grins" off their faces....everyone thought they were up to something!

Thanks again for the great posts :bow:...keep 'em coming! ;D


Offline shakespear

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2009, 12:26:21 PM »
Kvas is better than beer, it is at least not bitter  :) I wonder more not that people drink kvas, but when people drink beer. Or smoke, or drink any kind of alcohol - it's all not tasty, not healthy, but people still doing it a lot. 

So let's see. . . . . . . .

According to your opinions, people should give up   :scared0005:

1)  sex before marriage

2)  beer

3)  smoking

4)  drinking any kind of alcohol

 :bow:

Brass, life as you know it is about to get pretty dull   :ROFL:
"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun" - Katharine Hepburn

Offline alenika

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2009, 12:44:23 PM »
According to your opinions, people should give up   :scared0005:

1)  sex before marriage
- I never said this :-) I was saying that people should be free and do what they wish to do. While you are saying that they necessarily have to sleep with anyone. Exaggerating your words of course :-) But all what we (mendeleyev, Rasputin) were saying in other topic is that this is personal choice of couple when they decide to have sex, and it was you who was saying they have to do it during first 5 dates no matter what. What I say is to have only one rule - "have no rules" when are in search for life partner.

2)  beer -
------ hm it's matter of taste. I said it's not tasty and bitter. It is really bitter, isn't it?

3)  smoking
------ yes, better to quit of course :-) But until person doesn't hinder me, I don't care :-)

4)  drinking any kind of alcohol
------ again - I said it's not tasty, not teling anyone what they have to do.

Brass, life as you know it is about to get pretty dull   :ROFL:
------- why? Are you going to tell him and other men here again what they have to do and how they have to live which is going to lead to dull life?  :smokin:

You have interesting reading skills. Did you use Ed assistance to understand my (RW) writing in this way?  :innocent: If so - don't use it anymore, he is not capable to see all RW  :P
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Offline alenika

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2009, 02:09:28 PM »
Chill out Alenika -
I was just "pulling your (and Brass's) chain" a bit
I am pulling yours  ;)
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Offline ECR844

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2009, 02:11:04 PM »
"Mendy,"

Would it be possible for you to touch on the customs and expectations about the gift giving for family and relatives at a first meeting? What are your thoughts on the paradigm of  expectations, perceptions and 'value' of the gifts? At what point is the newbie expected to make that leap from the simple initial gift to the more intimate and expensive ones?

I'm still curious to hear some of the more experienced and expat folks opinions on this. I think it could lead to some valuable insight for the newbies and the experienced alike.

Offline alenika

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2009, 10:26:24 PM »
Alenika, Mrs. Mendeleyeva encouraged me to kick the cola/soda habit (successfully). KVAS is not a cola, and she says that KVAS is healthy, almost like a nutritional drink. Do you think the same?
Yes I think the same :-) It is healthy if done in the correct way. Those in bottles are not always good though. About kvas being like beer - depends how long you keep it. The best is to put it in fridge very soon, when it is like just carbonated drink, without alcohol. Actually that alcohol drink some describe above is a spoiled kvas (spoiled juice would taste similar for example), normal kvas is mild and tasty. Better to do it yourself. We do kvas at home sometimes, but not classical one from rye bread, we do it from beets with adding yeast (and sugar) as don't have anything better than that here in Georgia. Where mom came from they did yeast themselves too.
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2009, 12:15:58 AM »
Quote
"Mendy,"Would it be possible for you to touch on the customs and expectations about the gift giving for family and relatives at a first meeting? What are your thoughts on the paradigm of  expectations, perceptions and 'value' of the gifts? At what point is the newbie expected to make that leap from the simple initial gift to the more intimate and expensive ones?


Eric, sorry wasn't trying to ignore you and thank you for the question.



- Gifts on the first visit.

Some of you have read the story of our engagement and marriage and know that a young lady named Оксана (Oxana) had a role in helping me understand how traditional courtship works in the FSU. Oxana was a very lovely girl herself and was my assistant at Moscow's Radio Mayak when I was posted in Russia.

It took some effort but after getting to the point where I was granted the first visit to my potential girlfriend's home, I asked Oxana what to do about gifts. The advice received from Oxana was priceless.

Here is what she advised:
1) You are a guest and should bring nothing more than what is appropiate for any guest. Forget about courtship and concentrate on being a good guest. Don't over-do it on the first visit.

2) Since your lady friend is an adult you will bring her a small gift, but you must mirror that for her mother. No matter who owns the home or who lives in the home, the oldest female relative is considered the "hostess" for the evening.

Following her advice I took a modest flower bouquet for my lady and a similar but slightly smaller bouquet for her mother since they lived together. A moderate size box of Belagian dark chocolate was also planned and since I knew that a friend of the family would drop by I included a very small box (2-3 pieces) of chocolates for the friend.

As her father had died when she was a teenager I didn't have to take a gift for a male on the first meeting.

In later meetings with her extended family I would take modest gifts for cousins and aunts and small things for the children. American chewing gum was not as plentiful then as it is now (it still makes a good child gift) and one of my daughters shipped me some Disney ink pens/pencils when she knew I needed some things for children. But those things were not for the first meeting.


It is really important that men do not try to play Santa Claus. I've heard of guys buying lingerie for a first visit. Totally presumptuous and culturally inappropiate in my opinion, as would be jewelry, etc. Those are okay once you've established a face to face relationship and are moving forward in your plans to be together. But if you walk into the first meeting acting like an international diamond dealer, then what do you offer on the second, third and fourth meetings?

There is also something else which is important. What you are doing is really a balancing act of international diplomacy. Eventually you may wish to take this lady off to your home country so you don't want to make it difficult for her family to participate in the "diplomacy" process.

Here is what I mean by that: Diplomats woo each other. They exchange not only information but also gifts and tokens of appreciation. So if you walk into her home on the first meeting with a diamond tennis bracelet for your lady, a pearl broach for Mama, a gold watch for Papa, and new skateboards for the children, then what are they, on perhaps limited incomes, supposed to do to show their appreciation?

All you've said in the situation above is "look, I have more stuff than you do so that makes me the hero."

Russians don't like that kind of hero and if your girl does, you've got not a future marriage partner but a future asset protection issue about 2-3 years down the road.

When it comes to gift giving, for a Russian courtship to work, you need to allow her family the ability to reciprocate. So if your gifts are "over the top" then you have shut her family out of the process. You'll lose a good girl this way because the only way she can save face for her family is to end the relationship. You'll win a gold digger this way and never know the difference until you and your divorce lawyer are knee deep in....





Imagine the poster above reading "man who is patient and doesn't over-do gifts wins the battle!'

Okay, that isn't really what it reads but the idea is about being patient and strong in the air to win.

Offline jb

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Re: How to be a Guest
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2009, 06:16:56 AM »
Mendy,

I totally agree on going easy on the gift giving idea, especially at the beginning.

Funny story on my side, but you would have to have made trips to the FSU more than 10 years ago to appreciate it, I had been to Russia and had watched women struggle to open tin cans with those old WWII style "punch and swing" can openers.  I had arranged for a flat where I would do some cooking to save myself a little money, to that end I bought a nice KitchenAid geared can opener at WalMart before I left home. (prolly less than $10).  One evening I was entertaining my lady, (now wife) and she saw me open a can of something with the Kitchen Aid.  

Between the can opener, and the large double pack of Skippy Extra Crunchy peanut butter,  I think that's when she truly fell in love.  On subsequent trips I made sure every female in the family had a nice new can opener for their kitchen.

Initial gifts do not need to be large or expensive, just thoughtful.
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