What percentage of WM are up to the task of marrying an RW and keeping her????

[ECR844]

  Just reading this topic for the first time,and one thing comes continually into my mind. American's do this pursuit differently than the rest of the members from what I can tell.  It to me seems like a race to find her,marry her,and fly her back home ASAP.
 I know the 24+hr flights suck,but how can one ever know what she is like if you have only spent weeks with her ?  And aren't you on your best behaviour too ?  I know for the most part after a few dates,I act as I always do normally,maybe that's why I have yet to marry a FSU girl,but maybe it's helped to avoid a train wreck in the making. I know if I ever do find one from the FSU, I will sit my ass in her country for months on end, forget the income and live with her.
 She may get tired of having a unemployed man on her chesterfield,but if you get a routine going ie: get up and get out, and run the household while shes at work.  As long as the cash doesn't run down,she should be happy your there,unless I have it all wrong and she'd rather have you back home,sending her the rent money.
Then you have a opportunistic b@#ch,and you have derailed her true intentions. I know I don't race into these situations,but I will say that the one FSU girl that truly loved me,never once pressed the marriage issue,she was just happy I was on the other end of the phone,or coming to visit her.
 She would never of complained about being in a 4 star...what girl that really loves the man would bitch about the Caribbean vacation not being nice enough ?
 I can tell you she'd be finished in my books.   

Pretty much my perspective. I'll comment some more on thi in my TR when I finally get things squared away and get it started. Great post "donhollio."

[Kimosabe]

  Just reading this topic for the first time,and one thing comes continually into my mind. American's do this pursuit differently than the rest of the members from what I can tell.  It to me seems like a race to find her,marry her,and fly her back home ASAP.
 I know the 24+hr flights suck,but how can one ever know what she is like if you have only spent weeks with her ?  And aren't you on your best behaviour too ?  I know for the most part after a few dates,I act as I always do normally,maybe that's why I have yet to marry a FSU girl,but maybe it's helped to avoid a train wreck in the making. I know if I ever do find one from the FSU, I will sit my ass in her country for months on end, forget the income and live with her.
 She may get tired of having a unemployed man on her chesterfield,but if you get a routine going ie: get up and get out, and run the household while shes at work.  As long as the cash doesn't run down,she should be happy your there,unless I have it all wrong and she'd rather have you back home,sending her the rent money.
Then you have a opportunistic b@#ch,and you have derailed her true intentions. I know I don't race into these situations,but I will say that the one FSU girl that truly loved me,never once pressed the marriage issue,she was just happy I was on the other end of the phone,or coming to visit her.

This observation/advice is a real gem!  Should be in the book!   

I thought I was an idiot when I made the decision to live in Odessa during the time it took to get fiance visa, etc.  Looking back, and condering Donhollio's gem of a post, it was the best thing I could have done.  Even the HUGE bucks this cost me is cheap compared to the alternative, ending up with the wrong woman!

As an American man, I agree, most of us are in too much of a hurry. I was lucky to have the time and spend the time living with the woman who was supposed to become my wife.  GDAM, I am lucky 

[chivo]

I would also put it at about 1% for many of the reasons expressed here. But...
If you move here and spend major time here, I'd put it at 50-70%. And no, you don't need to initially speak the language.

The BIGGEST reason IMO for failure is the fact that most guys don't put enough effort into understanding the language and culture they're marrying into. It's been said many times, but I still don't think most men "get" it. If you spend enough time here, you can't help but understand it some. Don is right.

Your chances for success, all things being somewhat normal  :, will increase in direct proportion to you understanding this.

chivo

p.s this becomes less important the longer you live together of course.

[cufflinks]

Chivo...

How is the job going - what city are you living in?  Can you post some of the highlights and lowlights of being there?

Have any PICs to share?

[chivo]

Chivo...

How is the job going - what city are you living in?

I just returned from my yearly holiday/vacation in America. I've been in Moscow for almost 5 years now.

Things are like everywhere else. People are losing their jobs, and they're not really sure what will happen next. Nobody's panicking...yet, but there's a nervousness among the masses. Until the tanks roll down Kutuzovsky Prospect again , and people start firing their Kalashnikov's from their apartments   , I think things will be alright.

As for me, since some of my clients were in the real estate/mortgage/banking business, I've lost about 40% of my work as these industries are totally in the tank. I did manage to pick up some extra work recently, and expect things to pick as the year goes on.

I'm still Ok now though, as I was so overwhelmed with work (I was literally working 7 days a week) before the "crisis" hit here.

Can you post some of the highlights and lowlights of being there?

If there's enough interest, sure. To be honest, there haven't been that many lowlights, but this year might be an interesting one. 

If anyone has any specific questions, I'd more than happy to give my unbiased, honest opinion. I have entertained the thought of starting a new thread to detail some of my experiences here, but really haven't had the time to tell you the truth. With more time on my hands at the moment, maybe I will. Again, it depends on the interest level. Any ideas?

Have any PICs to share?

With Playboy maybe.

Seriously, with MrMann, Mendy, et all, most things have been covered. Good luck.

chivo

[Manny]

I dunno what line you are in Chivo, but if it gives you a feel for the economy and the "en masse" feelings, I am sure a few of us would like to pick your brain on a few aspects, me included.

Five years on the ground from a Western perspective is a viewpoint very few of us will ever have. I know from all the time I have spent in Estonia, I think I have a handle on the place, and then something happens you just didn't figure; you just don't read the masses view correctly (Compounded there, because we seem to be in the Russian circles rather than the Estonian ones). It takes a cove more familiar than me with the landscape to explain it. (Andrewfi usually does that for me)

Why not fire up a topic in the Private TR room and share some of your experiences? Then we can chip in with questions. 

[cufflinks]

I dunno what line you are in Chivo, but if it gives you a feel for the economy and the "en masse" feelings, I am sure a few of us would like to pick your brain on a few aspects, me included.

Five years on the ground from a Western perspective is a viewpoint very few of us will ever have. I know from all the time I have spent in Estonia, I think I have a handle on the place, and then something happens you just didn't figure; you just don't read the masses view correctly (Compounded there, because we seem to be in the Russian circles rather than the Estonian ones). It takes a cove more familiar than me with the landscape to explain it. (Andrewfi usually does that for me)

Why not fire up a topic in the Private TR room and share some of your experiences? Then we can chip in with questions. 

Manny very well put - I worked in Honolulu in 2004 and 2005 and really got to know my way around and live well but economize like a local - the local Hawaiian word for it is Kamaina meaning just that local and you soon discovered that if you brought a gov document that showed you were a local Honolulu resident you would only have to pay the Kamaina rate for just about everything - so I carried my Auto registration with my Honolulu address and that did the trick .  Like only having to pay $25.00 for the Atlantis submarine tour instead of the tourist $110.00 rate - or $50 for a North Shore Glider overlooking some of the world famous Surfing beaches versus the $95.00 tourist rate - there were literally Kamaina rates for everything and people would smile and Say Hey you a local Brah Ya!

So my question is what have you learned about becoming a Kamaina Muscovite - we all hear about the Oligarch and Millionaires clubs and lifestyle at at $5,000USD a night for VIP treatment - but for a regular working bloke what ways have you become a Kamaina (local) and what are some of the more enjoyable aspects that you have discovered about living there that in the know locals particularly like and keep to themselves regarding living, culture, entertainment, dining, business opps, working professional relationships etc...

First hand on the ground stuff - Kamaina - Ah-low-haa!

[Rasputin]

If you read the hype out there it says that any idiot
can find a gorgeous RW and live happily ever after!

What do you think?

I haven't followed this thread, but will share my opinion. And add a few comments.

First: how do you define gorgeous? My wife is gorgeous to me, but would not have been to the liking of other men. Inversely, the other men would think are gorgeous, I would be thinking "фуууууу." The question should be whether any idiot can find a woman that he would find attractive? He can, if he truly understands female beauty. Some men, from what I understand, have unrealistic expectations. No woman can PhotoShop herself in real life, though they may try with too much makeup, but that is another story.

This is how I would phrase the question: can any idiot find a decent, kind and attractive woman, more attractive than he could find at home? Well, I would say yes, but unfortunately idiots would not be able to recognize such a woman if she ran over them with a tank. The idiots will chase fantasies, the idiots will fall for the first pretty face who will be happy to use them ad bleed them dry. The idiot will be contemptuous of any real, decent woman he encounters.

There, my 2 копейки 

[mendeleyev]

Just reading this topic for the first time,and one thing comes continually into my mind. American's do this pursuit differently than the rest of the members from what I can tell.  It to me seems like a race to find her,marry her,and fly her back home ASAP.  I know the 24+hr flights suck, but how can one ever know what she is like if you have only spent weeks with her?  And aren't you on your best behaviour too?

Very wise observation. 

Don, do you think that part of this is because of the way vacation time is structured for most Americans?  I realize that most guys get 2 weeks and then they're on the job again until next year.  That is not the optimum situation for building an international courtship.

The BIGGEST reason IMO for failure is the fact that most guys don't put enough effort into understanding the language and culture they're marrying into. It's been said many times, but I still don't think most men "get" it.

Chivo, excellent point.

[mendeleyev]

First: how do you define gorgeous?

2TallBill (Beeeeel) made a good point on another thread that a woman's twinkling eyes and her smile/laughter will be the most lasting things that stay with her 30 years from now.  So true. 

I find that my wife's laughter is enough to keep me going for days.  When she "nails' me on something silly and we giggle/chucke about it, this kind of thing sends me on cloud 9 and literally boosts my spirits.  Its that heart-to-heart understanding that goes beyond any cosmetics and form.

[Rasputin]

First: how do you define gorgeous?

I find that my wife's laughter is enough to keep me going for days.  When she "nails' me on something silly and we giggle/chucke about it, this kind of thing sends me on cloud 9 and literally boosts my spirits.  Its that heart-to-heart understanding that goes beyond any cosmetics and form.

This is a nice comment. It is truly what loving somebody is all about. Too many men seem obsessed with making sure they find an 8 or a 9 or a 10 that they overlook what is really important.

[froid]

Don, do you think that part of this is because of the way vacation time is structured for most Americans?  I realize that most guys get 2 weeks and then they're on the job again until next year.  That is not the optimum situation for building an international courtship.

Part of it might be that, although I doubt many American's only have 2 weeks for a year.  3 or 4 weeks they would earn after some time at almost any company.  

I think the reasons American's do it that way is because they actually HAVE that option.  It seems that the fiancee route is the easier, cheaper, and simpler way to do it.  The process of marriage and then immigration sounds like it is more costly, longer and convoluted.  Of course I am not an expert on their process.

Compare that to the Canadian government's mandated process where there is no fiancee visa...we are almost always forced to an overseas marriage and then a lengthly immigration process.  Given the option would a Canadian prefer a fiancee visa type over the other?  I think many would prefer that way if possible.  I even know of one Canadian that got his gf over on a visitor visa and that happened in a few weeks for them.  Compare that to 17 months from engagement to visa for me and Mila.  Which would YOU pick?  

But that is a good point...is the fiancee visa method too "rushed"?  Maybe in the interest of getting to know each other better you can slow down the process yourself and not get engaged for the first year and achieve the same result.  

[mendeleyev]

Froid you might be surprised how many average Americans have 2 weeks.  Some companies, but not all, offer 3 weeks after 5 years service and 4 years after 10-12, etc.  But it is truly unusual for folks to stay with one company that long.

Guys who are in sales of some sort often make better money because of commissions, and are in a position to afford this adventure, but their other benefits such as vacation time is often locked in and left at 2 weeks for years on end.

I was reading on Yahoo the other day that American kids who graduate in 2010 face the prospect of working for a new company every 18 months over a lifetime.

[Rasputin]

I think the reasons American's do it that way is because they actually HAVE that option.  It seems that the fiancee route is the easier, cheaper, and simpler way to do it.  

Canada had a fiancee visa many moons ago. One of my Russian friends came to Canada on a fiancee visa 13 or 14 years ago. It was eliminated more than ten years ago.

In many ways, I am happy that Canada dropped the fiancee visa. I used to meet the saddest couples a decade or so ago, men and women who were clearly not compatible and were in effect wedded strangers. In the past few years, I meet fewer Canadian-Russian couples and those I meet tend to be a bit more balanced. Usually involves a man who worked or lived or studied in the FSU for extended periods of time and got married there.

[froid]

Froid you might be surprised how many average Americans have 2 weeks.  Some companies, but not all, offer 3 weeks after 5 years service and 4 years after 10-12, etc.  But it is truly unusual for folks to stay with one company that long.

Ok well that would be the policy as where I work now.  2 weeks to start, 3 weeks if you are a certain level, and an extra week with 5 years and 15 years.  Not many people have been at my bank for 15 years...but a few have.

BUT...in my case I have worked for during my career at different companies for a duration of 3 years, 3 years, 4 years, 2 years and here for 1 year.  I have 4 weeks vacation today.  I have had 4 weeks at the last 3 companies and only ever had 2 weeks at the first place I worked for the first year.  After that I used work/life balence initiatives, or just plain negotiating when I was being hired to make sure I didn't get the minimum.  Where there is a will there is a way.  Although I will admit the American polcies are usually worse when it comes to this. 

Interesting you mentioned that Rasputin...seems that your experience might show that the longer way weeds out some of those "sad couples".  I suspect that is the very reason Canada got rid of the Fiancee visa. 

[Rasputin]

Interesting you mentioned that Rasputin...seems that your experience might show that the longer way weeds out some of those "sad couples".  I suspect that is the very reason Canada got rid of the Fiancee visa. 

It does. Fewer cases of RW living in trailers deep in the woods, fewer cases of man being dumped unceremoniously as soon as she was able to do so legally... In other words, the typical stuff you hear on the Russian-language boards when the women complain about their new lives, and the horror stories you hear from the men 

[2tallbill]

Froid you might be surprised how many average Americans have 2 weeks.  Some companies, but not all, offer 3 weeks after 5 years service and 4 years after 10-12, etc.  But it is truly unusual for folks to stay with one company that long.

Guys who are in sales of some sort often make better money because of commissions, and are in a position to afford this adventure, but their other benefits such as vacation time is often locked in and left at 2 weeks for years on end.

I was reading on Yahoo the other day that American kids who graduate in 2010 face the prospect of working for a new company every 18 months over a lifetime.

I haven't had a "Real" job since the mid 1980's. I really don't know if I would be cut out
for it ever again. I think the real problem is to stop "making money while the sun shines"
It's hard for me to leave when projects are rolling in. However during the days between
Thanksgiving and New Years eve, I rarely make a dime. So leaving makes much more sense
than working.

I can return calls in the morning or late at night. I still have access to email etc. I have
a person or two I can call if something blows up (knock on wood). I have seen many 
people leave for months at a time, I could never visualize doing something like that.
It's like imagining playing pro baseball or something equally impossible.

 

[fireeater]

Froid you might be surprised how many average Americans have 2 weeks.  Some companies, but not all, offer 3 weeks after 5 years service and 4 years after 10-12, etc.  But it is truly unusual for folks to stay with one company that long.

Ok well that would be the policy as where I work now.  2 weeks to start, 3 weeks if you are a certain level, and an extra week with 5 years and 15 years.  Not many people have been at my bank for 15 years...but a few have.

BUT...in my case I have worked for during my career at different companies for a duration of 3 years, 3 years, 4 years, 2 years and here for 1 year.  I have 4 weeks vacation today.  I have had 4 weeks at the last 3 companies and only ever had 2 weeks at the first place I worked for the first year.  After that I used work/life balence initiatives, or just plain negotiating when I was being hired to make sure I didn't get the minimum.  Where there is a will there is a way.  Although I will admit the American polcies are usually worse when it comes to this. 

Interesting you mentioned that Rasputin...seems that your experience might show that the longer way weeds out some of those "sad couples".  I suspect that is the very reason Canada got rid of the Fiancee visa. 

There are people at the company I work for that have been there since they started working. 20, 25, 30 years. So 5, 6 or 7 weeks is not uncommon either. Whether that trend will continue with the new generation is still to be seen.

Taken right you can extended those into more like eight ot nine for a person with the max.   

[cufflinks]

Froid you might be surprised how many average Americans have 2 weeks.  Some companies, but not all, offer 3 weeks after 5 years service and 4 years after 10-12, etc.  But it is truly unusual for folks to stay with one company that long.

Ok well that would be the policy as where I work now.  2 weeks to start, 3 weeks if you are a certain level, and an extra week with 5 years and 15 years.  Not many people have been at my bank for 15 years...but a few have.

BUT...in my case I have worked for during my career at different companies for a duration of 3 years, 3 years, 4 years, 2 years and here for 1 year.  I have 4 weeks vacation today.  I have had 4 weeks at the last 3 companies and only ever had 2 weeks at the first place I worked for the first year.  After that I used work/life balence initiatives, or just plain negotiating when I was being hired to make sure I didn't get the minimum.  Where there is a will there is a way.  Although I will admit the American polcies are usually worse when it comes to this. 

Interesting you mentioned that Rasputin...seems that your experience might show that the longer way weeds out some of those "sad couples".  I suspect that is the very reason Canada got rid of the Fiancee visa. 

The Canadian, UK and Euro models proivde security and quality of life to their people whereas in the USA there is NO security only opportunity.   Now is the time to make hay in the USA as fortunes are set up at the bottom of economic cycles - you would be amazed how much wealth can be amassed here over the next 3-4 years - you need to be self employed in a "auto pilot" type business (investments, properties) or seasonal business (Summer or Winter resort rentals, Ice/Cream Clam Shacks etc. which you can leave "off season" with minimal management - or EFT rent payments with similar EFT PITI payments on properties etc... so that you can spend several months away at a time with a skeleton management team/handyman on call in case of emergency).

With the pressure to make your quarterly numbers working for most companies in the USA it is frowned upon to take more than 2 weeks vacation at any one time otherwise.

[andrewfi]

The Canadian, UK and Euro models proivde security and quality of life to their people whereas in the USA there is NO security only opportunity.   Now is the time to make hay in the USA as fortunes are set up at the bottom of economic cycles - you would be amazed how much wealth can be amassed here over the next 3-4 years - you need to be self employed in a "auto pilot" type business (investments, properties) or seasonal business (Summer or Winter resort rentals, Ice/Cream Clam Shacks etc. which you can leave "off season" with minimal management - or EFT rent payments with similar EFT PITI payments on properties etc... so that you can spend several months away at a time with a skeleton management team/handyman on call in case of emergency).

With the pressure to make your quarterly numbers working for most companies in the USA it is frowned upon to take more than 2 weeks vacation at any one time otherwise.

An interesting fantasy. Truth is that the US is among the worlds least economically equal AND least economically mobile societies.
http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc261e.pdf
http://www.publicradio.org/columns/marketplace/farrell/2008/04/the_decline_in_economic_mobility.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/20/america/20mobility.php

Of course it is absolutely necessary for the working class and lower middle class denizens of the US to believe otherwise or the charade simply could not continue.
It IS true that in Europe, as a broad generalisation, there is a greater emphasis upon quality of life and security of life (in all sorts of ways). It is also true that some European countries have shown a trendency to move toward US levels of inequality and mobilty stagnation.
If there is little economic mobility it is hard to argue that opportunity exists, at least for most people.

[cufflinks]

Fantasy - hardly - just a guy who runs 2 companies and knows the situation on the ground on a day to day basis...  I would say that the people who wrote those mobility papers did so from the academics perspective and I have known very few academics who actually went out and created great wealth - simply because by their nature they are Risk averse.  There are two types of people - those who look for Jobs and the upward mobility that comes with building a career working for someone else as "Labor" albeit educated laborers - and those who chose to enjoy the rewards of risk by building companies, enterprises, constructing great things providing jobs for the workers and enjoying the rewards of their labors and risks.

Every day there is a new opportunity for profit in both up markets and down - you just have to get off your ass and make things happen.

[andrewfi]

Just because I do not make buckets of money does not mean I can not count. Same same for academics.

You should know better than that. As I am sure you can read you can see that these are studies of what people are doing. Whether the writers were wealthy or not is irrelevant. To be sure you would not be where you are now without the work of dedicated academics.

[BelleZeBoob]

First: how do you define gorgeous?

I find that my wife's laughter is enough to keep me going for days.  When she "nails' me on something silly and we giggle/chucke about it, this kind of thing sends me on cloud 9 and literally boosts my spirits.  Its that heart-to-heart understanding that goes beyond any cosmetics and form.

This is a nice comment. It is truly what loving somebody is all about. Too many men seem obsessed with making sure they find an 8 or a 9 or a 10 that they overlook what is really important.

I also find the above comment very good. But  I don't think that it is a contradiction with desire to find an 8, a 9 or a 10. These types of women should be more able to keep us going, and to get us on cloud 9, shouldn't they?

[Rasputin]

I also find the above comment very good. But  I don't think that it is a contradiction with desire to find an 8, a 9 or a 10. These types of women should be more able to keep us going, and to get us on cloud 9, shouldn't they?

Marry a 10 who is a стерва and she will eventually get you going: either to the closest bar, the psychiatric ward or the closest divorce lawyer  JMHO of course 

[cufflinks]

Just because I do not make buckets of money does not mean I can not count. Same same for academics.

You should know better than that. As I am sure you can read you can see that these are studies of what people are doing. Whether the writers were wealthy or not is irrelevant. To be sure you would not be where you are now without the work of dedicated academics.

Andrew do not take it personally - I actually admire your analysis and your mind but at times you can't resist that lovable British Trait of an air of total Superiority.  I would like nothing better than a nice cushy acedemic lifestyle in the villages of Boston Cambridge or the hills of Dartmouth Hanover... but I was born of military technical men - since military retirements were at best meager I learned how to rehab houses helping my dad carry demo refuse to the junk pile and recycling nails when I was only 6 years old.  He left a debt free million dollar plus estate even though his second wife did her best to spend it and rob it after my Mother died.   I guess I was pre-programmed genetically towards hard work and service at an early age which culminated in my competing with 1800 men narrowed down to 180 finalists and being hand selected as one of 8 men to be trained as a Los Angeles Class Nuclear High Speed Fast Attack Hunter Killer Submarine Combat Computer Systems experts and Ship's Programmer Analyst.  I was one of only 5 who earned my dolphins the hard way and served a full 6 year tour with an Honorable discharge.  My avatar is a token coin representing our Ships crest or Jacket Patch.  I will match my mental acuity with any academic. 

That said great wealth is created at the bottom of economic cycles all the way back through history - even the Great Rothschild Merchant Banker was quoted as saying the time to buy is when blood is running in the streets!

The blood in America is running and the dirty little secret is that the banks are now dumping REOS at less than half their peak value to anyone willing to clean, maintain, rent and mange them to pay the carrying costs and take the responibility for paying the property taxes off the backs of the banks and government - back during the last 89-90 bubble properties that sold at $250K sold for $75K - now this bubble we see properties that sold for one and two million during the peak 2005-2007 timeframe nowing being dumped by banks for as little as 200K and 300K - massive wealth foundations are now being built on todays chaos - services businesses are able to hire people for half of what they were making at the 2005-2007 peak timeframe - when hungry people will work for food - so now - we do not have the social safety net of Europe and Canada - but we do have ruthlessly efficient markets that crush those who make dumb management decisions and leave the ruins as an opportunity to create the foundation for future wealth.

So if you are expecting to get your $500 Obama stimulus check to change your life while sitting around for handouts and reparations you will be living under a bridge soon - but if you get off your ass and use that check as legal consideration on a property contract and roll it you will be surprised how many people you can help and how much wealth that will eventually create over the next 3 to 5 years.

Anyone with modest intelligence and drive can do it - even an academic - as long as you can handle a clipboard and manage laid off engineers and managers willing to pick up a broom and paintbrush!

OBTW - What has this to do with the pursuit of FSUW - we all know the 8, 9 and 10s all like a man with a bit of a foundation to build upon