Trip Reports they might cease to exist very soon

[2tallbill]

I have always liked reading trip reports more than any other section of the forums.
I had made a number of trips and then figured that I learned a lot from others and
it was my turn to file a Trip Report to contribute my thoughts, experiences and a
2tallbill perspective on things.

My little TR created a Sh!t Storm, and I have seen others where after Monday morning
quarterbacking, and armchair quarterbacking were psycho analyzed to death and guys
start thinking why the hell go through all the trouble to write a trip report to begin with.

Lately Chillidog, wrote a report where he was second guessed every step of the way.
The thread shot off to a dozen different tangents often completely unrelated to him
and his experience.

How many trip reports are going to be filed in the future by others when they see the crap
that CD went through while filing a report.

Being a moderator is a tough job and I would NOT want to do it. Maybe they could clean
up some of CDs thread.

So what is the purpose me starting this thread ?

Maybe we can agree on some kind of ground rules for comments acceptable for trip reports?

I will give an example, even though I put him on ignore, I can still see his stupid posts
WTF does Tom's comments on sexual disfunction have to do in this trip report?

Maybe we can agree on a set of ground rules or some less formal guidelines to commenting
on trip reports and keeping them from getting derailed, analyzed to death, hijacked etc.

[bobjf]

totaly agree mate & as my journey was unconventional ,highly doubtful i will ever re write it on this forum,some read it on rmp before i deleted it.
noway i'm putting up here for wanta be's & those who think there is a right way to secede in this endeavor to take shots at .

 people need to remember no 2 of us operate the same way & that often not all of the saga is revealed before deciding they know whats happening before it is posted by the person concerned & also remember they just might destroy something good with there opinions & so called advice.
not all red flags prove to be bad & unless of the very obvious kind they should be examined 1st

 i myself almost ruined my now relationship by taking heed of a person who posts on this list a long time ago on another list,thankfully wiser heads steered me in the other direction away from the negativity

[anjutka]

i m not so agree with you))....not only those who posts comments should remember how sensitive we are....but also when one of us is  open something for public=be ready for any comments and may be for not easy discussions  :

and by the way , all trips reports and all others reports  you making for yourself first guys  , not for others;-)))....in order to understand the situation and etc....if someone stop to write them here, then advice- just make it for yourself,put your thoughts to the paper.....it helps usually to see more clear picture... : 

[Boris]

Yes, there are people here that make comments and offer advice that have never been to the FSU and never will go. They are the same people we all know from our work, gym or club that are experts on everything. I won't even mention the bitter men and wome(a)n that take(s) potshots. Or worse--people who try to surreptitiously torpedo your relationship.  That is why I'll never write a traditional trip report or post personal pictures.  The people who should be reading the reports and learning are the ones who make the most opinionated and pompous comments.

[2tallbill]

Here is an example of something that should not be included in a comment to a trip report.

If I wanted to post my recipe for pecan pie in the middle of a Joefromthewoods trip report because I like pie?
or if I wrote about pie then everyone who ever ate pie wrote their favorite recipe as well, the guys
trip report would be buried in a lot of meaningless unrelated information. I would suggest that a mod take
out the pie recipes and put it in a new thread.

[ECR844]

"2 Tall,"

Isn't it up to the mods to be sure the content is 'up to par,' and or in line with the spirit of this section? Also why wouldn't the OP, if they disagree with things being posted speak up about it?

[2tallbill]

"2 Tall,"

Isn't it up to the mods to be sure the content is 'up to par,' and or in line with the spirit of this section? Also why wouldn't the OP, if they disagree with things being posted speak up about it?

Yes I do. I think the mods here do a pretty good job, much better than I would for sure.
I am talking about general ideas here not just the OP and his story. Maybe by discussing it
here there will be less work for the mods to do in the future (LOL wishfull thinking on my part)

[Brasscasing]

Not my room but TRs are very important. The problem, or more accurately the challenge (for staff) is to encourage free discourse and discussion about a TR without dissuading the author of the report.
TRs (IMO) tend to have no middle ground, the author is either successful or not successful. It would follow that if the author is successful there are posts of encouragement, congrats and questions about details and even some questions of the author for advice. However, when a not so successful TR is posted, there is usually a "post game" analysis which can at times be somewhat direct and even contentious. Sometimes the discussions around a TR end up centering around something that the author didn't think was even important.
It's expected that if someone puts the effort in to compose a TR, the members will show the good manners to not disrupt the topic thread or second guess/challenge the author prior to his/her completing same.
If, say that it was an understood thing that the TR was completed before general discussion ensued, there is the risk of the author not receiving encouragement or missing some detail in the narrative because no one could ask a question or request clarification. 
Off topic posting in another member's TR is another matter and on complaint of the OP or other members will be looked at and acted on if justified.
Bill's post about having a general discussion and reaffirming the intended 'spirit' of the room is a good idea. I won't move it but don't be surprised if this topic is deemed to be better suited for the feedback section though.

Brass

[Donhollio]

 I think when a TR goes off the rails it can either help the guy,or it can drive him away. Remember that guy who made one post recently,and than got a Burtuzzi by a group ?  After he posted to basically tell everyone to FO.
 My TR here and elsewhere has never come under any of the scrutiny that some TR's do. I'm not really sure why that is,maybe I don't show much or any venerability and that keeps the wolves away.

But when a TR gets so far off track, or the writer is having his every move second guessed. I could only imagine it would make him either not bother to write again, or worse drop out of the forum.
 For this reason I think telling a guy who has made mistakes in a constructive manner maybe helpful, but having 2 posters in a side bar chat really makes a TR become worthless. I want to hear his story,not what as Super Tall Bill refers to as armchair quarterbacks.

 One thing everyone must remember as well is not every guy doing a TR can write good. I know I read over my posts after its past the edit stage ,and  think I should have worded it better.
 He may have difficulties making the story of his day to day flow in a coherent way. So what he types maybe seen as mistakes he has made ,while it's possible he didn't convey his words throughly so others can see exactly how it all went down.

 And that's that !........ sorry
 

[bobjf]

to true your last paragraph,some here even take issue at spelling/ grammer etc.
wake up you lot ,this isn't an English/grammar class & it isn't what this endeavor is about ether
to take a shot at someone because of how they write/spell is petty minded bs .
likewise thinking you can read between the lines & see something different to what was written is crap to.
i'v been accused over the years of writing 1 thing & meaning another.
well just so you all know ,i write only what i mean to say,there is no between the lines,what you see is what is meant end of story.
we all at sometime miss words & or trip over ourselves about how we wrote something.
most people will pickup on what was meant without reading something else into it.

for those who feel they can see into the future,please send me next weeks winning lotto numbers & if your mind reader ,you know what i'm thinking 

[sparky114]

Thanks 2TallBill for starting this thread

CD wrote his thread/ trip report with great detail and in his own words "wears his heart on his sleave" I admire him putting it all down on here for us to read, I have tried to do this but I fail it seems most of the time. But he gives me the inspiration to at least try.

So I take my hat off to those that can do this without sitting in front of the screen for hours trying.

I agree with bobjf I often write what I think, and sometimes my hands and brain co-ordination goes a bit astray, if I wanted an English lesson I would join a group / forum on that basis.

My last post on CD TR I am pleased has started this conversation or at the least contributed to it. Some of us are now married to our FSU ladys, mine being only recent, let us not try to ram our way of doing things down the guys and girls throats let us offer them support and try to keep the TR on topic


Mark

[Boris]

I think when a TR goes off the rails it can either help the guy,or it can drive him away. Remember that guy who made one post recently,and than got a Burtuzzi by a group ?  After he posted to basically tell everyone to FO.
My TR here and elsewhere has never come under any of the scrutiny that some TR's do. I'm not really sure why that is,maybe I don't show much or any venerability and that keeps the wolves away.

But when a TR gets so far off track, or the writer is having his every move second guessed. I could only imagine it would make him either not bother to write again, or worse drop out of the forum.
 For this reason I think telling a guy who has made mistakes in a constructive manner maybe helpful, but having 2 posters in a side bar chat really makes a TR become worthless. I want to hear his story,not what as Super Tall Bill refers to as armchair quarterbacks.

 One thing everyone must remember as well is not every guy doing a TR can write good. I know I read over my posts after its past the edit stage ,and  think I should have worded it better.
 He may have difficulties making the story of his day to day flow in a coherent way. So what he types maybe seen as mistakes he has made ,while it's possible he didn't convey his words throughly so others can see exactly how it all went down.

 And that's that !........ sorry
 

Because we are spellbound by your crazy genius. 

[erudite]

The easiest job in the world is to be a "Critic". It would be well for all of us to remember that when reading a TR report. I do enjoy reading from them and they help me learn about all of this.  Unfortunately most of them seem to be fruitless ventures many times. I would like to read some success or "luck" TR sometime also.   
As to the men who have ventured into the FSU and not gained their dream I extend my appreciation and also my sympathy. To have one's heart bounced around is never pleasant and I think most everyone here can relate to those acute feelings.

[Manny]

We used to have a sticky at the top of that room to give the options of:

• Locked TR, only the author to write his story without comment.
• Locked TR, comments and discussion in another thread.*
• Free for all, as most TR's are.

*Jack Bragg used this approach recently, and I didn't think it worked too well, it makes it harder to quote elements, etc.

Very few people ever wanted to use anything other than a regular topic for a TR since the board started, hence the old sticky got de-stickied.

We do try to prune out discussions into other topics as a TR develops. Several other threads have already been born from Chilli's TR - haven't they Moby?  

I think there is a decent case to clean Chilli's TR a bit the last few pages and lock it as a valuable forum archive. I am waiting for Chilli's thoughts on that.

So how do you guys think we may improve the existing model?

[mobyone]

We do try to prune out discussions into other topics as a TR develops. Several other threads have already been born from Chilli's TR - haven't they Moby?  

I dunno, *have* they.. .. thank you for singling me out for your "praise"

So how do you guys think we may improve the existing model?

*I* think.. it should be up to the person whose TR it is..

[Manny]

Let me phrase it better........

Do you think the existing options could be improved upon in any way?

[2tallbill]

Something to consider........

One of the hardest things to do while on a trip is to write the report as it is
happening. You are always a day or two behind (at least). So on day three
you had an impression about a girl named "Sexy Olga" but you are writing
about it on day five.

Then Joe "The Monday Morning Quarterback" tells him A, B & C and advice X,Y & Z.
The writer is frustrated because in the post which he will write tomorrow or
the next day will make everything clear, but Bob, Fred and George pile on and
tell him how to solve imaginary problems or start fighting with each other about issues
which have in fact already been resolved or the writer is fighting a different type of problem
which nobody knows about since he hasn't written about it yet.

I don't have a solution to this right now, but it's something to consider, when giving advice
to a guy on a TR.

Bill

[Chillidog]

Thanks Bill for this thread,

since my TR has been mentioned and is at least a partial influence to the creation of this thread. I guess I kind of feel a "free will to express my thoughts here" and hope that most of what I write will be applicable to this thread.

1) as one who has now written a TR. I will state I am "VERY HAPPY" I wrote this TR and wrote it in the manner that I did. There has been a fantastic amount of advice given to me in this TR, and it is up to me to use my "common sense" to determine which advice to use or to ignore (as all know I was the only one there), but because the advice given is "not the way I think" does not make it "bad advice"  

I conveyed to the best of my ability (I will not deny that my Unviversity degree was earned because of my "exellence in sports" and not due to me academic prowess), and thankfully (at least in my TR) I was not taken to task in regards to spelling or lack of grammical correctness (as posts elsewhere have been)

2) I know as I wrote my TR, I wrote with full knowledge that "it could be picked apart" especially if the result turned "south". and with this knowledge is why I never posted any "pics" of Marina or of her "friends and family" which I have many of.

My only and biggest concern was for Marina. I freely post on here and must accept these consquences of my actions, Marina is in all "definitions" is an innocent bystander and it is my responsibilty to protect her at all costs.

and again I feel the "membership" was very kind and courteous in there comments directed at Marina, or the type of person Marina is. If they were not (regardless of the result of the trip) they would have to answer to me, and trust me it would not have been pretty!

3) Manny (my response to your question I will make on my TR as I feel this is the appropriate place for this post)

I did not realize that their were "options" on the TR's as far as who could post. We have these on RUA?

to answer this question of yours, I would say "NO" to any censoring of "input" in a TR or any other thread. my feelings I am a grown-up not a child. I posted freely, no one twisted my arm. I do not state that the membership should be derogatory or abusive in a TR or any thread, but there should be room for constructive critisism and for different opinions, it is the "burden" of the MODS to deternmine this not me.

a TR without input from the membership would be a disservice to the OP and to the forum.

4)some of this thread may have been predicated on a hasty comment by myself on whether I would write a future TR and in this post I wrote if I did write another TR it would probably not have the same content as my "Omsk" TR.

I must apologize to ALL for this post.  It was written in haste, and it is not a correct reflection of me as a person

I guess the best testiment for all TR's  and there importance to not only the writer but to the community would be for me to say "I could not have learned what I have learned if I did not write this TR"

In the future, I will again write a TR, and I will again try to protray as acurately as possible my feelings, my hopes, my thoughts as they happen on this trip. Hopefully the next TR will end in SUCCESS

(added comment)

and I hope that we (RUA) will have many more TR written soon. My next may not be until "June"    

[Chillidog]

Bill

My solution if it was a "solution" was to concentrate on the lady and my visit while I was in "Russia" to keep a daily diary while I was in Russia and just write of my trip/experience after the fact, when I was back home.

the draw back: no help or input that would be "outside" of my thinking.

But to be honest if I did not act "true" to my nature then I may "win" the girl for a short period of time but the "long term" this lady would have fallen in love with XYZ and not the "Dog of Chill"

though I also see great benifits to getting the "outside" my thinking "help" when we are on the ground and running around like a "chicken with our heads cut off"

[2tallbill]

Thanks Bill for this thread,

since my TR has been mentioned and is at least a partial influence to the creation of this thread. I guess I kind of feel a "free will to express my thoughts here" and hope that most of what I write will be applicable to this thread.

Chilli, I wrote a TR which created a huge Sh!t Storm, but yes your report was the major
reason for starting this thread. I see less and less trip reports being filed and I hope that
this discussion may help reverse this disturbing trend.

I remember when I started and read various TRs of Turbo, Michael Angelo and others, I
read all of them many many times. I often felt as if i was there beside them agonizing over
the same things. After a while I decided that "hey I can do that ! !!" So I did it. I traveled
to the FSU 4 times making different mistakes each time. I decided that I received so much
from reading the TRs of others that I decided on my fifth trip to write about it, to kind of
pay back the forum(s) and previous reporters.

I wanted to give back to others what I had received (passing the torch so to speak).
The crap I received from writing my T/R certainly has caused me to rethink ever
writing a future T/R. I am traveling to Dnepropetrovsk in December. I am not sure if I
will write about it or not.

[erudite]

2tallBill,
Maybe you would consider sending me a bit of your highlights and what to expect since I plan on going there in February if all goes well.

[Chillidog]

The crap I received from writing my T/R certainly has caused me to rethink ever
writing a future T/R. I am traveling to Dnepropetrovsk in December. I am not sure if I
will write about it or not.

Bill,

First, I hope everything goes as you hope and dream of! There has been alot of success stories lately even if some are not so teleivised.

Personally for me I would love to read about your upcoming trip! If you write a TR or just show pic's of "places" you visited or some combination of both, each person can only decide what is appropriate for themsleves, but I would not let past experiences (TR reports) stop you from reporting in the future.

it is much like past "trips" if we allowed past trips that did not end in the results we hoped for affect us then we would not go on subsequent trips (I know not the best comparison).

I think TR are very benifical to "all" of the membership, and even a greater benifit to me from my own TR

[Wild Orchid]

The crap I received from writing my T/R certainly has caused me to rethink ever
writing a future T/R. I am traveling to Dnepropetrovsk in December. I am not sure if I
will write about it or not.

but don't forget that some of it was well deserved. You know I always defended you and your report, but you have to agree some things you posted there couldn't be taken well by everyone. And that is what every poster has to remember when he or she putting personal information on public forum

[Donhollio]

The crap I received from writing my T/R certainly has caused me to rethink ever
writing a future T/R. I am traveling to Dnepropetrovsk in December. I am not sure if I
will write about it or not.

 I really hope you do Bill !  But maybe leave the black tape off the girls faces !  

[tbelknap]

Come on Bill, I will stock up on the popcorn.  How much black duck tape can you get through customs.   




Thomas