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Author Topic: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?  (Read 848 times)

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Online Markje

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Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« on: June 28, 2019, 01:05:30 PM »
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/60836
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2019, 10:00:37 PM »
BBC News - Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48798875

Brilliant article.. Some of you are living in the wrong countries...





Online andrewfi

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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2019, 05:17:10 AM »
An interesting conversation and so much more than the monotone headlines presented to the general public.
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2019, 10:43:18 AM »

An interesting interview,  and shows Putin's realistic view.
Don't shoot the messenger, links to articles posted, don't necessarily reflect my personal opinion.

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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 02:12:27 PM »
Brilliant article.. Some of you are living in the wrong countries...

The original article is brilliant, yours is a BBC rehash full of pasted dictionary quotes and propaganda.

So here's what he actually said:

Quote from: Putin
There is also the so-called liberal idea, which has outlived its purpose. Our Western partners have admitted that some elements of the liberal idea, such as multiculturalism, are no longer tenable.

When the migration problem came to a head, many people admitted that the policy of multiculturalism is not effective and that the interests of the core population should be considered. Although those who have run into difficulties because of political problems in their home countries need our assistance as well. That is great, but what about the interests of their own population when the number of migrants heading to Western Europe is not just a handful of people but thousands or hundreds of thousands?

Quote from: Interviewer
Did Angela Merkel make a mistake?

Quote from: Putin
Cardinal mistake. One can criticise Trump for his intention to build a wall between Mexico and the United States. It could be going too far. Yes, maybe so. I am not arguing about this point. But he had to do something about the huge inflow of migrants and narcotics.

Nobody is doing anything. They say this is bad and that is bad as well. Tell me, what is good then? What should be done? Nobody has proposed anything. I do not mean that a wall must be built or tariffs raised by 5 percent annually in the economic relations with Mexico. This is not what I am saying, yet something must be done. He is at least looking for a solution.

What am I driving at? Those who are concerned about this, ordinary Americans, they look at this and say, Good for him, at least he is doing something, suggesting ideas and looking for a solution.

As for the liberal idea, its proponents are not doing anything. They say that all is well, that everything is as it should be. But is it? They are sitting in their cosy offices, while those who are facing the problem every day in Texas or Florida are not happy, they will soon have problems of their own. Does anyone think about them?

The same is happening in Europe. I discussed this with many of my colleagues, but nobody has the answer. The say they cannot pursue a hard-line policy for various reasons. Why exactly? Just because. We have the law, they say. Well, then change the law!

We have quite a few problems of our own in this sphere as well. We have open borders with the former Soviet republics, but their people at least speak Russian. Do you see what I mean? And besides, we in Russia have taken steps to streamline the situation in this sphere. We are now working in the countries from which the migrants come, teaching Russian at their schools, and we are also working with them here. We have toughened the legislation to show that migrants must respect the laws, customs and culture of the country.

In other words, the situation is not simple in Russia either, but we have started working to improve it. Whereas the liberal idea presupposes that nothing needs to be done. The migrants can kill, plunder and rape with impunity because their rights as migrants must be protected. What rights are these? Every crime must have its punishment.

So, the liberal idea has become obsolete. It has come into conflict with the interests of the overwhelming majority of the population. Or take the traditional values. I am not trying to insult anyone, because we have been condemned for our alleged homophobia as it is. But we have no problems with LGBT persons. God forbid, let them live as they wish. But some things do appear excessive to us.

They claim now that children can play five or six gender roles. I cannot even say exactly what genders these are, I have no notion. Let everyone be happy, we have no problem with that. But this must not be allowed to overshadow the culture, traditions and traditional family values of millions of people making up the core population.

Quote from: Putin
You know, it seems to me that purely liberal or purely traditional ideas have never existed. Probably, they did once exist in the history of humankind, but everything very quickly ends in a deadlock if there is no diversity. Everything starts to become extreme one way or another.

Various ideas and various opinions should have a chance to exist and manifest themselves, but at the same time interests of the general public, those millions of people and their lives, should never be forgotten. This is something that should not be overlooked.

Then, it seems to me, we would be able to avoid major political upheavals and troubles. This applies to the liberal idea as well. It does not mean (I think, this is ceasing to be a dominating factor) that it must be immediately destroyed. This point of view, this position should also be treated with respect.

They cannot simply dictate anything to anyone just like they have been attempting to do over the recent decades. Diktat can be seen everywhere: both in the media and in real life. It is deemed unbecoming even to mention some topics. But why?

For this reason, I am not a fan of quickly shutting, tying, closing, disbanding everything, arresting everybody or dispersing everybody. Of course, not. The liberal idea cannot be destroyed either; it has the right to exist and it should even be supported in some things. But you should not think that it has the right to be the absolute dominating factor. That is the point.

Nothing I disagree with there.
please tell me where I'm being / have been 'dishonest'? 
Yes, he said that.........

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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 02:45:45 PM »
Putin makes a lot of good points in regards to the USA and Western Europe.

In regards to former Soviet countries it’s far less of a problem that their citizens might go to Russia and cause problems.

The problem is Russia invading their neighbors and stealing land which doesn’t belong to Russia.
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 03:09:33 PM »


The problem is Russia invading their neighbors and stealing land which doesn’t belong to Russia.

Which land is that exactly?
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 03:40:35 PM »


The problem is Russia invading their neighbors and stealing land which doesn’t belong to Russia.

Which land is that exactly?


Transdniestria, Ukraine, Georgia come to mind. There are others if you wish to go back in history.
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 04:34:15 PM »
Try again, and this time try to be factual. Go on, you know you can do it.

Why do people insist upon fantasy? Do they think that sharing their fantasies makes them real?
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 04:53:23 PM »
Try again, and this time try to be factual. Go on, you know you can do it.

Why do people insist upon fantasy? Do they think that sharing their fantasies makes them real?

I always wonder about those in denial of reality. Though they make great Christian Scientists.
“If you aren't in over your head, how do you know how tall you are?” T.S. Eliot

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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2019, 05:12:48 PM »


The problem is Russia invading their neighbors and stealing land which doesn’t belong to Russia.

Which land is that exactly?


Transdniestria, Ukraine, Georgia come to mind. There are others if you wish to go back in history.


As I said elsewhere there’s still a Soviet mentality in Russia. Russia sent special forces into Crimea and Donbas with obvious intentions of taking Ukrainian land by force but now we have Andy denying reality.

As you mentioned they’ve also taken Georgian land by force. Pretending they’ve done nothing wrong is the Soviet game still being played by Russia.
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2019, 02:33:58 AM »
Try again, and this time try to be factual. Go on, you know you can do it.

Why do people insist upon fantasy? Do they think that sharing their fantasies makes them real?

World calling andrewfi

You are addressing your mirror, again ..

Deal with the specific examples given .. 'peace-keepers' taking sides and  handing out passports of their nation to 'resolve' conflict ...  ?

If the UK / US were doing this in the 21 C - they'd be expanionist 'colonial powers' ..




The original article is brilliant, yours is a BBC rehash full of pasted dictionary quotes and propaganda.

 :chuckle:

Please demonstrate specific examples of either

So here's what he actually said:

Quote from: Putin
There is also the so-called liberal idea, which has outlived its purpose. Our Western partners have admitted that some elements of the liberal idea, such as multiculturalism, are no longer tenable.

Classic ( awful) translation .. 'partners' is an oft misused word by Russians suggestion there is a spirit of co-operation / agreement that doesn't exist in reality..



And why DID migration come to a head ...?


SYRIA ...  and WHO ensured E.Aleppo - a city more populated than Damascus - could be bombed from the air with impunity and is largely responsible FOR the wave of migration  ?


Russia has failed  to deal with huge influxes of migration from the Stans and  Caucauses during Putin  ...


I find the article hilarious - given the issues Putin has spectacularly failed to deal with at home and contributed to in Europe

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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 03:44:39 AM »


The problem is Russia invading their neighbors and stealing land which doesn’t belong to Russia.

Which land is that exactly?


Transdniestria, Ukraine, Georgia come to mind. There are others if you wish to go back in history.


As I said elsewhere there’s still a Soviet mentality in Russia. Russia sent special forces into Crimea and Donbas with obvious intentions of taking Ukrainian land by force but now we have Andy denying reality.

As you mentioned they’ve also taken Georgian land by force. Pretending they’ve done nothing wrong is the Soviet game still being played by Russia.

putin always denied wanting donbass.  crimea  chose to stay with Russia.  do try to read the news and not opinions of newsreporters
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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 06:23:56 AM »


The problem is Russia invading their neighbors and stealing land which doesn’t belong to Russia.

Which land is that exactly?


Transdniestria, Ukraine, Georgia come to mind. There are others if you wish to go back in history.


As I said elsewhere there’s still a Soviet mentality in Russia. Russia sent special forces into Crimea and Donbas with obvious intentions of taking Ukrainian land by force but now we have Andy denying reality.

As you mentioned they’ve also taken Georgian land by force. Pretending they’ve done nothing wrong is the Soviet game still being played by Russia.

putin always denied wanting donbass.  crimea  chose to stay with Russia.  do try to read the news and not opinions of newsreporters

Unlike you Mark I do read the news. I read it from real news sources, not just propaganda sources from Russia.

But that’s more or less off topic.

Putin has struck a nerve with those in the West engaging in unhealthy social engineering, and for that I applaud him.
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Online andrewfi

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Re: Is Putin right? Is liberalism really obsolete?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 06:25:25 AM »
I think that some people here are soundly delusional. That's a disappointment but I recognise that so people manage to live with fantasies about the world in which they live, that's made easier when those fantasies do not impinge upon their normal lives.

Rather than trying to disabuse these people of their fantasies, a fool's errand, I can only encourage them to do some learning. That's unlikely to be helpful because nobody actively seeks to inflict cognitive dissonance upon themselves but objective examination of facts can help. At least one poster here was able to overcome his fantasy world and get past the disruption that cognitive dissonance caused him. So, we know that it can be done.
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