US Fake News on Ukraine

[2tallbill]

Russia prevented you from stealing Crimea and gaining full control of Ukraine

[Manny]

Russia prevented you from stealing Crimea and gaining full control of Ukraine

I'm pleased you found an amusing meme to circumvent discussion, Bill.

Covered in detail in posts passim here, Bill. But to remind you, the US backed coup in Kiev that ousted the democratically elected leader caused Donbass to break away and Crimea to reunify with Russia, later cemented by a people's vote. Had that not have happened, the new regime in Kiev would have ended Russia's tenure of Sevastopol and by now the USS Hamburger would be sitting there. Thus, Russia prevented the US gaining full control of Ukraine. The US now controls by proxy what remains. Glad to help. 

[Contrarian]

Russia prevented you from stealing Crimea and gaining full control of Ukraine

I'm pleased you found an amusing meme to circumvent discussion, Bill.

Covered in detail in posts passim here, Bill. But to remind you, the US backed coup in Kiev that ousted the democratically elected leader caused Donbass to break away and Crimea to reunify with Russia, later cemented by a people's vote. Had that not have happened, the new regime in Kiev would have ended Russia's tenure of Sevastopol and by now the USS Hamburger would be sitting there. Thus, Russia prevented the US gaining full control of Ukraine. The US now controls by proxy what remains. Glad to help, the topic here is North Korea. 

Funny but actual Ukrainians don’t agree with your bizarre propaganda.

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor, an actual Holocaust. Ukrainians have been trying to get liberty from the bully to the east for a good one hundred years. Moscow planned for at least a decade to steal Crimea and due to the Trojan city of Sevastopol and large cargo planes filled to the brim with Russian soldiers they pulled it off quickly.

Donbas hasn’t gone so well, first Russian troops took out MH17 in an act of sheer terror, bragged about it on Twitter but then quickly deleted the tweets. Russia faced losing the battle of Debaltseve so they called in heavy artilary from Russia. Ukrainians know what’s up despite the nonstop lies of Russia. 

[AvHdB]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor, an actual Holocaust. Ukrainians have been trying to get liberty from the bully to the east for a good one hundred years.

Ukraine has repeatedly chosen to seek closer ties with the West. The meddling in Ukraine affairs by Russia is centuries old. Some need to get over it.

As for the ex-criminal kleptomaniac he can enjoy his Russian hospitality. Good riddance that he is no longer an actor in Kivy.

[Manny]

Funny but actual Ukrainians don’t agree with your bizarre propaganda.

Apart from the 97% or so in Crimea that voted to reunite with Russia?

Apart from the huge chunk of area to the east that has since broken away from America's Kiev's control?

Are "actual" Ukrainians just those that agree with the US backed coup in Fox/CNN land? The others that lean towards Russia are (or were) not "actual" Ukrainians then? 

[Manny]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

[AvHdB]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

V. Putin has never made any apologies or accepted any responsibility for the Holodomor. In fact he has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union. His admiration of V. Lenin and J. Stalin are well documented.

[Contrarian]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

V. Putin has never made any apologies or accepted any responsibility for the Holodomor. In fact he has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union. His admiration of V. Lenin and J. Stalin are well documented.

Exactly!
 

[Contrarian]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

What planet do you live on? You know you sound a lot like Moby now, alternate Universe type stuff.

Whether it was Soviet Russia or now the Russian Federation means diddly squat. It’s the same chauvinistic imperialistic attitude that Ukraine doesn’t like or appreciate. Putin has done his best to rehabilitate one of the greatest mass murderers in history, specifically Stalin. Which totally destroys your argument.

Don’t let reality get in the way of your propaganda though! 

[Wiz]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

V. Putin has never made any apologies or accepted any responsibility for the Holodomor. In fact he has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union. His admiration of V. Lenin and J. Stalin are well documented.

May I remind you that Stalin's mother was a Jew.......and Stalin expelled 1 million Jews on the East end of Siberia.... and told them to create the Republic of Birobizan...........how many are there now?    Only 1000 jews the rest went to Israhel.

BTW why should Putin apologise for the "Holodomor"...... he wasn't born at the time.........and was not his problem!

Russia started recovering after Putin got rid of the Jews... Berezovsky, Hardacofski etc.....

Nastarovya..... sunshine!

[msmoby]

Always amusing to read Wiz' revisionist history ..esp. re Jews and Manny's constant ( fabrication) re the 'referendum ' result in Crimea...
Manny us clearly after citizenship from VVP ...such is the  BS he peddles and when trying to ensure factual reality is shuffled off to hidden corners...

As for Wiz, Stalin tried to get Jews moved to the far East to counter Zionists and even with enforced relocations failed spectacularly.

Anyone still thinking Wiz might have a point....Read here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism?wprov=sfla1

Folks get judged by what they do / did, their actions ...Wiz...not what some revisionist historians might suggest.

It came out ..in 1956... how Lenin had lost trust in Stalin, but was too weak to act.

Stalin covered up Lenin's letters...slowing worry about Stalin's anti Semite leanings.

You should visit Gori..  Stalin's Museum...it is interesting that some photos and letters of Stalin's are not translated into English..

On reading them...one can see why....

A horrible man...period. Not too many Georgians are proud of his exploits and the Museum is worth a visit to decide for yourself.

[andrewfi]

AvHdB, there is good reason to admire some of the achievements of both Lenin and Stalin without at the same time admiring the person. I think that if you go back and have a look at what Mr Putin has actually said, that you will find this to be the case. I get the faint stench of a purposefully dishonest 'sharing' going on in your post above.

To take my point in a slightly different context. I do not like mushrooms, I try to avoid eating them whenever possible - except in one particular case: I love a good chicken and mushroom pie. Without the mushrooms, the pie is imperfect, bland, unwholesome. I doubt I will ever like mushrooms except in this context.

You could not, in all honesty, extend this limited admiration as a statement that I admired mushrooms in all contexts, that would simply be untrue. In general, the pairing of mushrooms with chicken in a chicken and mushroom pie is widely admired by pie aficionados so we can infer that I am not unusual in this regard.

[AvHdB]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

V. Putin has never made any apologies or accepted any responsibility for the Holodomor. In fact he has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union. His admiration of V. Lenin and J. Stalin are well documented.

May I remind you that Stalin's mother was a Jew.......and Stalin expelled 1 million Jews on the East end of Siberia.... and told them to create the Republic of Birobizan...........how many are there now?    Only 1000 jews the rest went to Israhel.

BTW why should Putin apologise for the "Holodomor"...... he wasn't born at the time.........and was not his problem!

Russia started recovering after Putin got rid of the Jews... Berezovsky, Hardacofski etc.....

Nastarovya..... sunshine!

I am not sure what Stalin's mother has to do with this discussion, but she certainly did a piss poor job raising her son.

The greater issue is in the United States there are a number of less than admirable moments in history, the internment of  The Japanese and the treatment of Native Americans are two examples. Presidents and administrations have apologized and even paid retribution. What is typical of your entitled attitude and unwillingness to except any responsibility that is so sickening.

[rosco]

Funny but actual Ukrainians don’t agree with your bizarre propaganda.

Apart from the 97% or so in Crimea that voted to reunite with Russia?

Apart from the huge chunk of area to the east that has since broken away from America's Kiev's control?

Are "actual" Ukrainians just those that agree with the US backed coup in Fox/CNN land? The others that lean towards Russia are (or were) not "actual" Ukrainians then? 

It’s the term ‘actual Ukrainians’ that’s misleading. During my travels to the south east, from Zap to Donetsk, all the actual Ukrainians I met spoke Russian and pretty much though themselves as Russian. I remember being quite surprised.

Clearly I didn’t speak to everyone but it seemed to me that the general attitude towards Russia was positive.

My wife often says that she’s glad the USSR collapsed but speaks fondly of The RF. The 2 aren’t the same unless you live in Idaho.

[msmoby]

AvHdB, there is good reason to admire some of the achievements of both Lenin and Stalin without at the same time admiring the person. I think that if you go back and have a look at what Mr Putin has actually said, that you will find this to be the case. I get the faint stench of a purposefully dishonest 'sharing' going on in your post above.

Classic andrewfi ..

Even admires  amass murderer like Stalin ..

[msmoby]

 During my travels to the south east, from Zap to Donetsk, all the actual Ukrainians I met spoke Russian and pretty much though themselves as Russian. I remember being quite surprised.

He's a cluebat for you, Rosco - speaking Russian does not make one either  pro-Kremlin / anti-Kremlin ..  It was the lingo and using it to this day holds no negativity in most pasts of Ukraine.. It is used in Georgia - mainly by older folk..

He comes the naughty part ..

Clearly I didn’t speak to everyone but it seemed to me that the general attitude towards Russia was positive.

The simplest check of elections result from 2014 and 2019 prove otherwise .. tell us how ( say) Zaporizhia voted in 2014 / 2019 - THANK YOU ..






I was in Donbas in 2012 and there was no problem flying a Ukrainian flag and in 2014 elected politician like Vlodomyr Rybak were murdered  for daring to remove a 'separatist flag' in Donbas..





My wife often says that she’s glad the USSR collapsed but speaks fondly of The RF. The 2 aren’t the same unless you live in Idaho.
[/quote]

[andrewfi]

Confusion arises because 'Ukraine' is not a homogenous group of people with a shared history, language, and culture. Like many countries in Europe Ukraine is a glued together patchwork of peoples, many of whom has antipathy based upon centuries of conflict.

So, Ukraine has people from Russia and with strong connections to Russia in the east. To the West, there are the Hungarians, and toward the North West are the Poles. There are other groups as well, but that'll do for now. So, to some degree, one's impression of the elephant depends upon which bit you are touching. As a generalisation though, the greatest recent overlay of culture, commerce and language is Russian.

Not many people were supporters of the activities that led to the coup. My recall of contemporaneous numbers (nitpickers can go look for themselves and wank themselves silly over my poor recall) suggests that the level of support for Maidan never exceeded 10% or so and the support for the thuggish elements who are now in such powerful positions only 2 or 3%. What people had been persuaded to support was the concept of joining the EU, and support for that was quite strong albeit that the populace had been lied to about the Association Agreement and its real terms and conditions. The last legitimate government before the coup was in support of the agreement and was promoting it to the people.

I have met plenty of people who describe themselves as Ukrainian in terms of nationality and Russian in terms of culture, of ducha.

[msmoby]

Now Andrewfi is 'at it' with the revisionist history of Ukraine.

There is plenty of evidence of UA language literature, banning of the language being taught by Moscow during Imperial Russia rule ..

 Kiev was free of Moscow rule,twice in the early part of the twentieth C...only to have the yolk re-fitted.

Lots of Russians regard Ukraine as a naughty child ...not a real nation and offer BS reasoning like andrewfi....Plenty of other E.European nations have mixes of ethnicity...It did not preclude nationhood.

[Manny]

V. Putin has never made any apologies or accepted any responsibility for the Holodomor.

Why would he? It was many years before he was even born.

In fact he has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Go and find the actual quote, you’ll find it was a single sentence taken out of context and twisted by western media to create fake news.

[Manny]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

Whether it was Soviet Russia or now the Russian Federation means diddly squat.

It actually means quite a lot because it is a different territory, run under a different political system by different people. They are not the same. You are embarrassing yourself with your lack of knowledge of history.

[Contrarian]

Ukrainians have been bullied and literally starved by the Millions by Russia during the Holodomor,

Holodomor was 1932.

The Russian Federation we have today was formed in 1991.

But hey, as long as you can say "Russia" is a baddie it's no sweat going back 59 years before the RF was formed, right? A prime example of US Fake News right there.   

Whether it was Soviet Russia or now the Russian Federation means diddly squat.

It actually means quite a lot because it is a different territory, run under a different political system by different people. They are not the same. You are embarrassing yourself with your lack of knowledge of history.

No, not at all. A different political system? Yes. But run by the same type of arrogant brutish Russians as before. You may have taken away Communism but you haven’t taken away the Russian mindset towards their neighbors. 

[Contrarian]

Now Andrewfi is 'at it' with the revisionist history of Ukraine.

There is plenty of evidence of UA language literature, banning of the language being taught by Moscow during Imperial Russia rule ..

 Kiev was free of Moscow rule,twice in the early part of the twentieth C...only to have the yolk re-fitted.

Lots of Russians regard Ukraine as a naughty child ...not a real nation and offer BS reasoning like andrewfi....Plenty of other E.European nations have mixes of ethnicity...It did not preclude nationhood.

I’m in rare agreement with Moby on something! 

[andrewfi]

Gentle folk, please go and read what I wrote. Get help with the polysyllabic words, or ask me for clarification. You should do this because it is clear that you either did not read, or did not understand what I wrote.

The thick is running high today.

[Markje]

Whether it was Soviet Russia or now the Russian Federation means diddly squat. It’s the same chauvinistic imperialistic attitude that Ukraine doesn’t like or appreciate. Putin has done his best to rehabilitate one of the greatest mass murderers in history, specifically Stalin. Which totally destroys your argument.

Really now? So from now on, I can assume you think the confederacy of southern states (e.g. south-USA) from before is the same as the USA today? Or perhaps its the north, they seem to have won the war. It means diddly squat according to you, its the same people/culture/whatnot. (despite ending slavery , totally reforming/writing the US constitution etc. etc. etc.) the RF and the SSSR are the same in this regard, totally different beasts then their predecessors.

[yankee]

Really now? So from now on, I can assume you think the confederacy of southern states (e.g. south-USA) from before is the same as the USA today? Or perhaps its the north, they seem to have won the war. It means diddly squat according to you, its the same people/culture/whatnot. (despite ending slavery , totally reforming/writing the US constitution etc. etc. etc.) the RF and the SSSR are the same in this regard, totally different beasts then their predecessors.

Can you explain what is meant by " totally reforming/writing the US constitution"